Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation [Archive] - Page 5

Angelmonster

2011-03-04, 12:16

I am not sur eif I liek the fact that QB is an alien trying to "save" the universe and just seems evil because it's race is unable to have emotion. I dislike how murky animes get when they involve magic AND aliens in one story. Hopefully this won't fall victim to that.

QB is definitely misleading the girls, it just admitted in this episode it doesn't understand why these girls ar enot willing to sacrifice themselves. Meaning he is admitting that he doesn't tell them the full truth becaus ehe knows how they will react. QB isn't evil in my eyes but his lack of morals does make him evil by humanity's stand point, the stand point that no life is worth sacrificing for another.

So speculation, obviously the "dream" or "Flashback" or "other timeline glimpse" we saw in the first episode is happening in the next episode. Which mean Madoka is going to become a Puella next episode or when she makes the wish soemthing really bad happens. Homura knows something happens with her meaning she will survive this fight.

What I find itneresting is, it could jsut be the art style, but does anyone see how Homura's "house" is very similar to a Witch's "area"(whateve ryou want to call it). Maybe possibly once Madoka gains power she has the ability to turn Witches back to Puella's or stop the process/change it somehow to make it so the witch's power is accessable but Homura stays homura, she doesn't lose her humanity.

What I want to know is what makes Walpur-whatever-night so special? Is this a Puella who had the power Madoka supposedly has within her? Is it related to Madoka? Why is it so powerful compared to other Witches? If it is in the scene in episode one it obviously means Madoka will contract the minute Homura is about to be defeated.

I don't know what Homura is regarding the cat, possibly once Madoka becomes a Puella Homura might start to turn into a witch and, possibly, Madoka stops the process and turns her into a cat (since in stories black cats are familiars for witches).

Shadow5YA

2011-03-04, 12:56

Dictionary defination of lie: "something that misleads or deceives"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie

Many people have the same problems as Sayaka, so i will leave this at that

Please, if you must cite from a reference, do it verbatim. Your paraphrase in this case may as well be your own opinionated definition.

lied | ly·ing \ˈlī-iŋ\
Definition of LIE
intransitive verb
1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression

According to number 1, Kyubey has not lied. All of his statements have been true so far.

sa547

2011-03-04, 13:26

SagaraSouske

2011-03-04, 13:34

That is incorrect. He has made untrue statements.

When he first pitched contracting to the girls, he said MG's purpose is to kill witches.

Now, he states their purpose is simply to become witches so he can harvest the energy released during the transition. Therefore, his initial words about MG's purpose is not true.

He also said to Sayaka and Madoka after Mami's death that he will leave them alone. That again was not true since we see him appear in front of Sayaka/Kamijou right after.

Even the example you just mentioned about possibility of turning back from witch. His first statement to Kyoko was untrue because he clearly knows it is impossible yet says he doesn't know if it is possible. The way you deem his words being factual would make any sentence factual. I can say the sky is red. It is factual under certain circumstances. Bill Clinton said initially he did not have a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky. According to what he considered as a sexual relationship, he said the truth. But most people watching that speech on TV believe it otherwise. So, from Kyoko's perspective, she just think QB said he does not know if it is possible despite the exact word play. She even commented that QB does not know everything. In this context, his words are not true, since he did know.

In all cases, his intent was clearly to deceive.

Angelmonster

2011-03-04, 13:40

I wonder where those Grief Seeds are actually being utilized, because I doubt about QB's claim that they're using those GS to fuel the device to stabilize the universe.

Why? What if... What if these Grief Seeds are being stockpiled for a colossal superweapon comparable to, say, the Covenant's Halo rings?

QB hasn't said what the Grif Seed is used for, he didn't give that bit of info to Madoka yet. All he has said is that they use the energy expelled when a Puella transforms into a Witch to basically fuel the Universe or whatever his long speech says it does. He didn't tell her that is "eats" the seeds after aMagic Girl uses it to de-cloud her crystal.

I have no clue what they ar eused for. As i sai dI do not really like anime that puts magic and aliens together, there better be a good explanation for it because right now he eats them "becuase", lol.

sa547

2011-03-04, 13:45

In that case, we may have to wait for a backstory to support QB's claims.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-04, 14:53

According to number 1, Kyubey has not lied. All of his statements have been true so far.

So tell me this

"Kyubei is a liar". Statement true or false? :)

Answer me that and you will know why i posted only definition 2 :D

Malkuth

2011-03-04, 14:56

I hope QB was just BS'ing Madoka about entropy and aliens, anyway...

Now the starting scene makes a whole lot more sense as the climax of the show. Homura either fighting or becoming Walpurgis. Madoka finally doing something useful for once, i.e. become a MS to save her, and rebalance the world.

As for meta, I really hope they do something in the lines of EVA TV ending.

Still, Homura being Madoka's cat from the past is viable, but more and more unlikely. Last episode she kind of implied that she not human, only to immediately add that all MS are not.

synaesthetic

2011-03-04, 14:56

Yup, Kyubey has lied in the past and will lie again in the future. Like most Manipulative Bastards, he uses lies as the last resort, though--he depends far more on elegant, semi-verifiable half-truths and omission of important details, but he has lied, as an above poster mentioned.

Kyubey said that the purpose of a magical girl is to kill witches. This is actually completely false. Kyubey would gather far more energy if every magical girl killed no witches, obtained no Grief Seeds--they would turn into witches themselves far faster. Thus giving Kyubey the energy he seeks.

Edit: I'm pretty sure Kyubey has lied about gathering energy for a "good"/utilitarian means. He has never told the unadorned truth ever to any of the girls, so why should he start now?

Kazu-kun

2011-03-04, 15:23

Now the starting scene makes a whole lot more sense as the climax of the show. Homura either fighting or becoming Walpurgis. Madoka finally doing something useful for once, i.e. become a MS to save her, and rebalance the world.

This doesn't make sense. If Madoka becomes MG, she will eventually become the strongest witch in history (as QB admitted in this episode) and destroy the whole world.

Unless there's a whole new season about witch Madoka bridging the world to shit, I don't see how the series could end as you think.

Malkuth

2011-03-04, 15:48

This doesn't make sense. If Madoka becomes MG, she will eventually become the strongest witch in history (as QB admitted in this episode) and destroy the whole world.

Nope, that's just one possibility, Mami and Kyouko never became witches, though for Madoka it's more likely since she is even more naive than Sayaka.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-04, 16:03

Nope, that's just one possibility, Mami and Kyouko never became witches, though for Madoka it's more likely since she is even more naive than Sayaka.

QB takes the energy from the moment the soul burns out and the SG becomes GS (stated by him in this episode). So QB needs Madoka to become a witch to take the energy he's looking for, and you bet he would do anything to achieve this.

Of course, Madoka could become MG, defeat Walpurgis and commit suicide by shuttering her SG (like Kyoko). But then QB would just continue making baby witches out of little girls like he has always been doing, so not real solution.

EDIT: in fact, he's going to keep making new MGs even if he succeeds with Madoka, since preventing entropy is a never ending process anyway.

Malkuth

2011-03-04, 16:08

QB takes the energy from the moment the soul burns out and the SG becomes GS (stated by him in this episode). So QB needs Madoka to become a witch to take the energy he's looking for, and you bet he would do anything to achieve this.

Of course, Madoka could become MG, defeat Walpurgis and commit suicide by shuttering her SG (like Kyoko). But then QB would just continue making baby witches out of little girls like he has always been doing, so not real solution.

Not a solution, that you would like... but what we wish to happen does not affect the actual outcome... unless you go by the anthropic principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle) :p

Kazu-kun

2011-03-04, 16:12

Not a solution, that you would like... but what we wish to happen does not affect the actual outcome... unless you go by the anthropic principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle) :p
I'm just talking about an ending that would make sense from a storytelling perspective.

But hey, if you really think the story is going that way, let's just a agree to disagree, ok?

Malkuth

2011-03-04, 16:21

I'm just talking about an ending that would make sense from a storytelling perspective.

Still depends to what kind of stories you're refering to, EVA, Gilgamesh, Elfenlied, &c made perfecr sense with bleak and somewhat open to interpretation endings.

But hey, if you really think the story is going that way, let's just a agree to disagree, ok?

Well, sharing an opinion does not imply the ulterior motive to persuade the audience, that's more like what QB does ;)

NaweG

2011-03-04, 16:25

Kazu-kun

2011-03-04, 16:35

Still depends to what kind of stories you're refering to, EVA, Gilgamesh, Elfenlied, &c made perfecr sense with bleak and somewhat open to interpretation endings.

I don't know about the others, but even Eva has a neat plot device (Rei) that allowed Shinji to ultimately decide over something that seemed unavoidable (instrumentality) in EoE.

I'm actually expecting something like that in this series. Some plot device that would let Madoka choose a different path instead of making a contract. Those locked memories about Homura might be the key to that.

Malkuth

2011-03-04, 16:51

Personally, I think we've gotten to the point where it's quite possible that Homura is trying to stop Madoka from becoming an MG because she's tired of having to kill her best friend ala Kyoko. As for why she doesn't explain anything to Madoka, well , how much faith would you put in the words of someone who admits they plan to kill you even if you agree it would be the right thing under the circumstances?

You know she can always skip the part about "I am sick and tired of killing you", it's not like Madoka will ever ask... which is such damn annoying plot-device, but makes for more suspense and speculation. Anyway, overall what you suggest is highly unlikely, considering the first scene, unless they go for another season.

I don't know about the others, but even Eva has a neat plot device (Rei) that allowed Shinji to ultimately decide over something that seemed unavoidable (instrumentality) in EoE.

I'm actually expecting something like that in this series. Some plot device that would let Madoka choose a different path instead of making a contract. Those locked memories about Homura might be the key to that.

I see... I was referring though to the TV ending, and my point was that both can work storytelling-wise. Madoka does not have to save the world with her choice, actually I will be surprised if she does :heh:

Kazu-kun

2011-03-04, 16:58

I see... I was referring though to the TV ending, and my point was that both can work storytelling-wise.

The tv ending doesn't even use narrative-style storytelling so the comparison is pointless.

Madoka does not have to save the world with her choice, actually I will be surprised if she does :heh:

As in Eva, I'm not expecting Madoka to save the world, I'm just expecting her to save herself.

synaesthetic

2011-03-04, 17:48

It's interesting how by becoming a magical girl, the girls gain special abilities and slowly become corrupted over time, delaying it only with the use of a Grief Seed--but eventually, even with GS, they will corrupt into a Witch.

Sounds remarkably similar to the Grey Wardens of Dragon Age. They take in the darkspawn blood, and gain special abilities, but over time the blood they drank will turn them into a mindless zombie-like creature. So before this happens, they typically head to the Deep Roads and slaughter as many darkspawn as they possibly can before being inevitably overwhelmed.

So, perhaps, without Kyubey's malicious influence, magical girls could exist in a "good" fashion, cooperating as a cohesive unit to ensure the witches are eliminated, and then sacrificing themselves in a grand battle to prevent the corruption from changing them into a witch...

Could be an interesting plotbunny for a fanfic, at least. :)

Riou17

2011-03-04, 17:51

I'm just curious about this Walpurgis Night. From the subs that I've watched, Kyouko said Walpurgis is an insanely powerful witch and can't be defeated alone by either her or Homura (both are professionals). Since Kyubey said that Madoka has an immense power inside her, is it possible that when Madoka became a witch, she'll become Walpurgis?

Crazy thought: What if Walpurgis is Madoka? I mean, if Homura came from a different timelime and she's a Puella Magi, why not witches (considering they have their own dimensions)? Walpurgis might have come from a different timelime and jumps on the present timelime. This is of course based if what Kyubey said about Madoka having the power to rewrite the laws of the universe is true (but then what about time-manipulator Homura?). Homura came back to the past and tries to save Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi which in turn, Kyubey is sure of, will turn into a powerful witch. No Mahou Shoujo Madoka, no Walpurgis. Though Kyubey won't allow it since he(it?) needs energy that can only be acquired between the transition of Puella Magi to witch. No Walpurgis, no immense energy.

Those are just my crazy thoughts.

PzIVf3

2011-03-04, 20:02

Homura: "In two weeks, 'Walpurgisnacht' is coming to this town. Once I defeat 'it,' I'll leave

Her words something puzzling my mind. She might mean im gonna destroy my true form and die.

Cosmic Eagle

2011-03-04, 21:46

Does anyone else think that the face at the end of the ED is something important? Kyuubey's true form or the final demon responsible for all this or something...

Xion Valkyrie

2011-03-04, 22:57

taofd

2011-03-05, 00:04

The tv ending doesn't even use narrative-style storytelling so the comparison is pointless.

As in Eva, I'm not expecting Madoka to save the world, I'm just expecting her to save herself.

Well in Eva, you could argue that the world was Shinji's reality, so by saving himself, he was saving the world...

Fandal

2011-03-05, 00:37

synaesthetic

2011-03-05, 03:40

There's only three episodes left...

jeroz

2011-03-05, 04:12

the more madoka sees before contracting, the longer she will remain a mahou shoujo due to stronger mental strength. If she is already contracted now, and you see her in this current depressed state, it wouldn't be surprising that she transforms right away.

However, that is under the assumption that there's nothing more to come. She still has one last piece of heaven to be destroyed: her family.

creb

2011-03-05, 04:19

However, that is under the assumption that there's nothing more to come. She still has one last piece of heaven to be destroyed: her family.

I keep wondering if her family will be pulled into it. It's the one part of her life that has remained untouched throughout the series. Personally, I don't think it's going to be touched. It just doesn't seem like there's enough time to weave that in plus the finale where she finally grows up and goes magical girl on us.

Hopefully her family will be one of the few rays of hope that remain to the end.

Wuster

2011-03-05, 04:23

I was thinking, what if Homura is Kyubey from another time line. In the other time line, Kyubey comes in contact with Madoka and told her that its species does not have the capability to feel emotions and but have created a machine that can harness the power of emotions to prevent the heat death in his universe. Madoka eventually made the decision to become a MG with the wish to give Kyubey emotions. Upon experiencing its emotions like friendship and love with Madoka over time, this Kyubey's body becomes severed from its species link/system. Perhaps becoming a black cat (personifies that it has become the "black sheep" of the family).

After a while, "black kyubey" inevitably sees Madoka slowly turn into a witch. After losing Madoka, it made a decision to try to save Madoka. Because "black kyubey" now has emotions and can use the same machine/contract system. It wishes to become a MG to go back in time to prevent Madoka from making her wish that eventually kills her. Thus, "black kyubey" becomes Homura and received time powers to be able to go back in time.

It would explain why Homura can be so cold and unfeeling. It's because in her previous incarnation as Kyubey, it was how it normally handles the situations. But when Madoka is in trouble such as in Episode 8, Homura almost breaks down emotionally. It supports why Homura seems to know everything about Kyubey in this time line. Perhaps Homura's interference in this time line also caused surprises that did not happen in her own such as Mami dying and Sayaka becoming a MG.

Perhaps the bittersweet ending is for Madoka to make a contract with Homura and wish that the Kyubey race has never gotten in touch with humans or perhaps that the Kyubey race has never existed. This would revive/reset all the other MGs such as Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko because they would have never contracted with Kyubey and eventually died. However, Homura/"black Kyubey" would also never have become Madoka's friend. Essentially Homura would die as soon as Madoka's new wish take place.

Just thought that it is an interesting theory.

creb

2011-03-05, 04:43

I think, with a lot of the theories that revolve around wishes, it's important to wonder if QB is actually bound by rules, or if he's simply following them out of his own personal sense of kindness. There's a very big difference, with the primary one being that if it's the latter, he obviously can decide to break his own rules if he feels it threatens his people's existence.

His comments, especially in this last episode, strongly infer (to me at least), that he is just following rules out of kindness to an alien race that is likely so far below him/them, that they may as well be ants (again, from his point of view). At this point, I highly doubt they're actual rules he is forced to follow.

I mean, let's go ahead and accept heat death with a straight face. We're talking about amounts of time so incredibly large, that his people loose absolutely nothing by being kind and patient while adhering to a framework of rules so as to fit their own personal moral code of kindness.

One could even speculate that even if QB doesn't land Madoka, no big deal. It'd be great if he did, as anyone who might take pride in their job might feel at doing a great job, but I'm thinking his adherence to a set of rules is exactly because of the immense time scales involved with heat death. He can afford to be "nice".

I guess I very much doubt QB would grant a wish that meant the end of existence of his people etc, unless it was so cleverly worded he didn't even realize what he was granting. Still, this is just speculation like everything else in this thread. Guess we'll just have to see!

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-05, 04:53

either homura or madoka will die at the very end... T_T or they'll be separated once again.. and one of them will utter this

"I'll be waiting for you forever"

LOL. pretty cheesy but bittersweet.XDDD

i predict that my yuri-dar will go off the roof next episode. XD i foresee heavy implications...XDDD

Riou17

2011-03-05, 05:39

Reminds me of the whole BlackBeast thing from BlazBlue. So Homura jumps back in time to prevent Madoka from becoming a Peulla Magi and QB sends Madoka-Witch back in time to stop Homura from doing so? That'd suggest QB can control witches, and so far, it doesn't seem like he could.

It could possibly that it wasn't Kyubey who sends Witch Madoka on another timelime. If you're a powerful witch, you can just jump into another timelime after maybe destroying the world. Like in Mirai Nikki where Yuno have to go to another timeline after winning the game.

either homura or madoka will die at the very end... T_T or they'll be separated once again.. and one of them will utter this

"I'll be waiting for you forever"

LOL. pretty cheesy but bittersweet.XDDD

i predict that my yuri-dar will go off the roof next episode. XD i foresee heavy implications...XDDD
Or it could be like Higurashi. Homura going back in time again and again. But seriously, if Homura doesn't like Madoka or anyone else to be a Puella Magi, why can't she just say the consequences of being one? Or is it part of the rule of being a Puella Magi to not tell anyone about it until they became one.

Xion Valkyrie

2011-03-05, 06:41

It could possibly that it wasn't Kyubey who sends Witch Madoka on another timelime. If you're a powerful witch, you can just jump into another timelime after maybe destroying the world. Like in Mirai Nikki where Yuno have to go to another timeline after winning the game.

I thought once Madoka turns into a witch, QB basically 'wins'. So in this scenario, witch Madoka must have been powerful enough to throw off QB's plans?

Or it could be like Higurashi. Homura going back in time again and again. But seriously, if Homura doesn't like Madoka or anyone else to be a Puella Magi, why can't she just say the consequences of being one? Or is it part of the rule of being a Puella Magi to not tell anyone about it until they became one.

She said she tried telling others about the whole soul gem thing before, but nobody believed her.

Anyways, it seems Homura knows for sure when the Walpurgis Night will occur. If Witch Madoka was chasing Homura through time, it'd be kind of strange if she always travelled back to this Night, whereas Homura could travel much further back and prepare to fight her.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-05, 06:46

The writer of this show is hiding something big. Walpurgis night (climax?) is coming too fast and there are still too many open episodes left to fill with just two main characters.

If he's a good writer, he's hiding a big surprise somewhere. If not, this could be a long drawn out walk to the end.

Next episode might be Homura's back story. That could take the entire episode.
Ep 11 would be W-night (end on plot twist, eg Madoka has always wished for Homura to go back in time to save everyone)
Ep 12 Finale/Post W-night

Shadow5YA

2011-03-05, 08:39

There may be a loophole in the contract system for Homura.

If Homura originally wished to go back in time, then the Kyubey in the current timeline has not technically granted a wish for Homura yet. She could be free to make another wish.

Jimmy C

2011-03-05, 08:54

But her soul is already in a Soul Gem. What's Kyubei going to do, put it into another Soul Gem?

Solace

2011-03-05, 09:25

But her soul is already in a Soul Gem. What's Kyubei going to do, put it into another Soul Gem?

Russian dolls ftw.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-05, 10:26

Evaluation of guesses made a month ago

Long range guess on what will happen: Sayaka will not be the one who Madoka becomes a mahou shojo for. Homura will be the one she sacrifices for instead.

Kyubei seems to think so as well though in a different view :(

Madoka is the super witch in the first episode dream sequence with her costume colors surrounding her. Homura's wish is somehow broken possibly from kyubei's machinations/death and Madoka and Homura are drawn into the world of episode 1. The finale has Madoka and Homura fighting witch Madoka and succeeding. As Madoka would then be a mahou shoujo, she kills herself to prevent witch Madoka from ever happening.

Still in the running but parts look unlikely

In episode 6, Kamijo dies.
In episode 7, Sayaka becomes a witch or is destroyed
In episode 8, Kyoko dies
In episode 9, Kyubei's final gambit starts
In episode 10, Homura's wish unravels. All is returned to episode 1's dream. Homura dies.
In episode 11, Madoka becomes a MS and fights her older witch self. She wins and finally Madoka kills herself to prevent herself from becoming a witch once more
Eh initially thought it was 11 eps instead of 12. Moving everything 1 step down results in wrong, right, right, unknown, unknown, unknown

Anime guessing is fun :)

jeroz

2011-03-05, 10:41

If the beginning of ep1 is indeed walpurgisnacht, then it's possible that there's huge change between the two timelines already.
It's obvious that Madoka in this timeline has seen a lot more would be mentally stronger come that fateful night. Instead of saying those useless words while watching Homura getting hammered, there's a possibility of her being resolute and determined. You cannot grow without taking some falls first. Luckily for Madoka she doesn't have to fall herself.

On the flip side, she could also be absolutely broken at that time and the universe goes for the worse.

Jimmy C

2011-03-05, 12:47

It is sad that, given the clues that there will not be a "happy" end for any of the remaining characters, the best case scenario I can come up with is:-

1. Madoka contracts, becomes a magical girl and defeats Walpurgisnacht.
2. Madoka asks Homura to destroy her Soul Gem before she turns into a witch.
3. Homura does so.
4. Before jumping to the next timeline, Homura tell herself, "Next time, I'll succeed."

Only loose end is what effect will Madoka's wish have on the world.
If Madoka really reaches the point where she knows she's going to die, I'll bet one of her thoughts will be she's sorry she never got to drink with her mother after all.

panzerfan

2011-03-05, 13:52

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-05, 16:20

One scenario that has just crossed my mind is the potential disaster or blessing from Madoka wishing that all sentient race can generate emotions on their own as well. The is one Pandora's box of a wish if granted. Chances are however, that she won't be wishing for something to that nature.

Agreed, its unlikely though remotely possible. The permutations of the finale is still very great. Possibilities i can guess as of now would be
i) Madoka never makes the wish, uses Homura's pink gem which is her soul gem in another time.
ii) Madoka makes the wish and kills herself after
iii) Madoka makes the wish and wins, gaining another wish (if W-night's prize is a wish). This is used to send Homura or herself back
iv) Madoka never makes the wish and never becomes a MS, foiling the plot. Homoura dies though self destruct, removing W-night threat.
v) Madoka makes the wish and uses the time before she becomes a witch to help people, meeting Homura later on. Homura makes the wish to save Madoka
vi) Madoka makes a wish outside of probability (eg Kyubei's race now emotional). Chaos ensues and/or system ends
vii) Madoka makes the wish to send Homura back. This places the fate of the world on hold as the timeline is reset
viii) Bad plot possibilities: External agency intervenes, Kyubei has an attack of remorse, Madoka visits Kyubei's planet and becomes a witch there.

Riou17

2011-03-05, 16:44

I thought once Madoka turns into a witch, QB basically 'wins'. So in this scenario, witch Madoka must have been powerful enough to throw off QB's plans?
Possibly. I mean if Witch Madoka is so powerful then no Puella Magi can defeat her. That means there will be a decrease on Puella Magi surviving and turning into witches. Unless Kyubey makes a lot of contract and construct it that most of them turn into witches before Walpurgis Night and save that energy for something else, then having Witch Madoka roam around and kill, won't be a problem for him. But since he can't control witches then having Witch Madoka around is a problem for him.

I don't mind the bittersweet ending. I just don't want those open-ended endings or cliffhanger endings. Though if I have to guess an ending, it's either:
1. Everyone dies and Madoka is still a human.
2. Everyone dies, Madoka's a Puella Magi and possibly doing what Mami and Homura did before.
3. She dies and Homura goes back in time.

By the way, is it possible to bring back dead Puella Magi/Witch with just a wish? If Madoka wishes so to bring back Mami, Sayaka and Kyoko with her wish, it that possible? But then that won't be a bittersweet ending.

Xion Valkyrie

2011-03-05, 18:06

Hmm, I said this in the ep 9 thread, but it probably wasn't a good place to post it, but operating under the following assumptions:

1. QB is not lying about Entropy Heat Death
2. Entropy Heath Death is actually occuring, and only through the harvesting of magical girls is it being stopped.
3. Madoka can permanently stop the effects of Entropy Heat Death by perpetually generating the energy to fill the void.

Then the ending would be something like:
1. Madoka contracts with QB, fights Walpurgis Night with Homura.
2. Madoka turns into a witch, QB somehow has a special 'harvest' for her, and the Entropy Heat Death is stopped.
3. QB and his race leave humanity because they no longer need Magical Girls.
4. Madoka's wish to prevent Homura from resetting the timeline and forget everything about Madoka and Magical girls, and lives a normal life.

Hagoshod

2011-03-05, 19:05

I have a prediction for the next episode:

Episode 10 will deal with the issue of only having two characters left by having Mami make a guest appearance via her soul somehow surfacing in Kyubey's body.

And then her role as a Cure Pine expy (http://chichichichipndale.deviantart.com/art/Deconstruction-198080713) will be undeniable.
We shall see.

Cosmic Eagle

2011-03-05, 21:47

By the way, is it possible to bring back dead Puella Magi/Witch with just a wish? If Madoka wishes so to bring back Mami, Sayaka and Kyoko with her wish, it that possible? But then that won't be a bittersweet ending.

You know this raises the question of just how much Kyuubei can do....obviously not enough or he wouldn't be facing the need to harvest humans...

Xellos-_^

2011-03-05, 22:00

my ending prediction

Despite the title i am going to predict that Madoka does not become a Magical Girl. Homeura will sacrificing herself and wither manage to take the MegaWitch with her or somehow force the megawitch to leave. Homeura wins by stopping madoka form becoming a witch but dies and leaves Madoka alone with the truth.

Malkuth

2011-03-05, 22:06

Xellos-_^

2011-03-05, 22:07

That would be the greatest trolling ever :heh:
it is Shaft being Shaft

panzerfan

2011-03-05, 22:13

Actually, the kind of troll ending that I am going to put forth would be the race of Incubator finding the ability to generate emotion themselves, and would leave our emotionally devastated Madoka with food for thought as Kyuubee goes to save the universe as well. The whole thing would come down to her having to live on as the age of magical girl finally draws to a close, and history can begin.

Is the tragedy of Madoka who has survived worse than the Incubator race who will then bear with the neverending emotional nightmare? Wish taking vengeance on those who belittle it might be the end note here.

Deconstructor

2011-03-05, 22:29

My troll ending is that Kyubey was not evil, and the universe dies because he fails to contract Madoka.
Episode 13 is a black screen for 23 minutes. At the 24th minute, when only supremely bored otaku are still watching, a big bang happens. In an alternate timeline, Madoka wishes to become God and fixes the universe.
Q.E.D.

aeriolewinters

2011-03-05, 22:43

Madoka wishes to become God and fixes the universe. Blank Screen for 10 seconds, *cue in Haruhi OP1*

FlareKnight

2011-03-05, 23:20

I'm not sure how it'll turn out. Could see them just going full out bad ending. Homura is losing the fight, Madoka makes her wish and joins the fight. Madoka quickly loses herself after all the friends she has lost and the fate of the Puella Magi. She turns into the most powerful witch and the world is doomed, thus forcing Homura to jump to another timeline in hopes of things working out.

Suppose another option is pretty much that with a message at the end of the episode about a sequel coming out in a couple seasons ;). Maybe there Homura doesn't make any mistakes.

Xellos-_^

2011-03-05, 23:21

Suppose another option is pretty much that with a message at the end of the episode about a sequel coming out in a couple seasons ;). Maybe there Homura doesn't make any mistakes.
you want 8 seasons of Madoka?

FlareKnight

2011-03-05, 23:48

you want 8 seasons of Madoka?Well in that theoretical situation they'd finish it up in one more season. 8 seasons definitely a bit too much of Madoka :heh:.

taofd

2011-03-06, 02:26

Well in that theoretical situation they'd finish it up in one more season. 8 seasons definitely a bit too much of Madoka :heh:.

I'd hit it, only if it were all feel good Madoka for the rest of the 7 seasons...

MeoTwister5

2011-03-06, 02:34

Inkyubeytors developing emotions? Troll ending? More like Deus ex Machina.

CainSonozaki

2011-03-06, 02:34

Ive been thinking alot about what kyubey says and Reminds me of something else. Part truths that can be perceived as "false", depending on vague context and general words.

Red Truth from Umineko

So thinking that way i made a theory. Kyubey essentially likens Madoka as a MS to be somewhat of a reality warper. But not like Haruhi who can change things seemingly at will. IIRC he knows for a fact Madoka has the greatest potential, but does not know how powerful she could be. or not knowing of any way that might bring Sayaka back but knowing for a fact kyouko couldnt do it.

Now although he doesnt say "reality warper" the things he says Madoka might be able to do are pretty much in line with one. Now lets break "reality warper" down in terms of kyubey. Reality: What is reality to kyubey? Universal Entropy. Warper: What could warp that? Something that stops and/or reverses Universal Entropy.

Therefore, Madoka could be considered a reality warper in the sense that if kyubey consumes her grief seed, Universal Entropy may end

synaesthetic

2011-03-06, 03:12

Well, that'd mess things up bigtime. I'm not even sure what would happen to a system that could neither gain nor lose entropy...

Malkuth

2011-03-06, 04:26

you want 8 seasons of Madoka?

Not even 8 episodes, especially during the summer :upset:

CainSonozaki

2011-03-06, 09:10

Well, that'd mess things up bigtime. I'm not even sure what would happen to a system that could neither gain nor lose entropy...

What im wondering if Madoka will be the most powerful MS, and in turn most powerful witch, how exactly does kyubey plan on harvesting her grief seed

Jimmy C

2011-03-06, 10:21

We're not sure why he's harvesting Grief Seeds yet. But he gets the energy when the Soul Gem shatters. So it's been collected if Madoka's already turned into a witch.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-07, 00:09

Although some would incline to believe this show is thematically skeptical against hopes and dreams, I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

While Homura is often cold, unemotional, and unsympathetic, she still retains some human compassion. Aside from crying in front of Madoka, she still has not resorted to the easiest method to prevent Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi -- killing her while she's human. Even currently while Homura is running out of options, she is still willing to fight alone on Walpurgis Night instead of allowing Madoka to make a contract. She still holds some hope for Madoka to live a happy life.

Despite Kyoko's likely death, she also had a fairly happy ending. She initially wished for people to listen to what her father had to say, but ironically her father didn't listen to what Kyoko wanted to say. However, by the end, she had met Madoka, who listened to what Kyoko had to say without fault, and Sayaka, whom Kyoko saw herself within. In the end she had people who honestly listened to what she had to say. To top it all off, now that her Soul Gem is shattered, she is saved from becoming a Witch herself.
Finally, there is Madoka's well-being herself. While it is true that Sayaka met a miserable fate, Madoka is even more kind and idealistic than Sayaka is. While Sayaka did have people she disliked and made enemies, such as Homura and Kyoko initially, Madoka is kind towards all of the Puella Magi she has been in contact with so far. Madoka is also still relatively unharmed, and still has her loving family. If this series was skeptical of such kindness, Madoka would be even worse off than Sayaka is right now.

However, this does not mean that all hopes and dreams are granted. They require effort, and naivety is punished. Notice how Kyoko earned a friend she could talk to by actually making an effort to talk, but when she just wished for it as a child, she ended up with a dead family. Likewise, Sayaka initially wanted Kyousuke's happiness by healing his arm, but she was a bit hasty and reckless with her wish, got in way over her head, and ended up overwhelmed and became a Witch. She also made no effort to confess her feelings to Kyosuke, which naturally ended up with someone else confessing to him first. She wants Kyosuke's attention, yet in the end she did not make the effort to convey her feelings to him. Meanwhile, Madoka is clearly careful of the consequences of making a contract and has thought it through, even with her kind nature, and she is relatively unharmed because of it.

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 06:32

Very good post, Shadow5YA.

As I've argued on the Episode 9 thread, I don't think that this anime is a total rebuking of idealism, but rather is stating that idealism comes at a cost. This is where Madoka Magica differs considerably with many other magical girl anime.

I don't think that this anime is saying that it's wrong to pursue one's hopes and dreams (including altruistic and/or idealistic ones), but rather that people need to be willing to pay a cost for that, even if that cost is simply applying consistent effort, thoughtfulness, and courage.

Sayaka was a nice girl, and a generally good person, but she did show a lack of effort in some areas (i.e. when it came to Kamijo), and a lack of thoughtfulness in other areas.

MeisterBabylon

2011-03-07, 06:59

MeisterBabylon casually mentioned about the stench of Madoff regarding Kyubey, and I do think it is a valid line of consideration...

I am actually not willing to discount Kyubey's work as that of a Ponzi scheme. For that it is entirely possible that Kyubey in fact only pays returns to separate contract holders and not from any genuine power to grant true miracle... rather, the very wish granting comes from the amount of work that the magical girls have put forth or actual genuine "miracles" done by other magical girls. The ROI that Kyubey has tabled cannot be matched by anyone else...

which of course raises the alarm bell of a need for ever-increasing flow of power or deeds by magical girls to maintain this scheme. Those who fell victim will have no recourse.

Generally speaking, the danger from Ponzi scheme occurs from the fact that rational, able and well-off people are the most vulnerable, and they in turn affect their clients who entrust them to make sound decisions for them. The level of charisma... attraction that Kyubey possesses is augmented greatly with existing clients such as that of Mami 'vouching' for the magician actually makes me seriously wonder at the caliber of those that might have fallen under this Ponzi scheme, if Kyubey indeed practices this infamous self-propagating myth.Just resurrecting this post after all this while. Some parts of the specifics are off, but I feel rather vindicated that it did turn out to be a Ponzi scheme of Thermodynamic proportions. :D

Now of course what happens from here on out.

taofd

2011-03-07, 07:53

Ichijo

2011-03-07, 08:28

After watching yesy subs for ep9.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

QBs created a tech to turn emotions into energy that could prevent the heat death of their home and since its useless for them, they found humans.

Human emotions can be turned into more energy than it takes to raise human beings.

They decided to use girls because they are the most emotional.

While studying humans, they discovered magical girls, or at least that human souls have
potential to use magic - ability that allows to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

They created soul gems - device that brings out abilities to use magic in regular girls and when a soul gem turns into a grief seed, it releases a burst of energy that can be gathered.

But what kind of energy they gather upon release? Emotions, or magic?

PzIVf3

2011-03-07, 09:52

This looks shocking.
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1927/129950388662116212467up.th.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/129950388662116212467up.jpg/) http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9797/129949862182816104211up.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/129949862182816104211up.jpg/) http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2679/129949851380816103832up.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/i/129949851380816103832up.jpg/)

So who's the real Madoka?
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3445/12994935441091642105330.jpg (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/12994935441091642105330.jpg/)

ruurguy

2011-03-07, 10:14

What makes you say she was lacking? o_O?

Not sure what Triple_R was referring to in particular, but if I had to guess, based on my own perspective:

She made a wish that in my opinion wasn't completely altruistic and not completely thought out. In the elevator in one of the earlier episodes she was wondering if he would thank her, or 'something more', and thinking that she was a terrible person for having such a thought. She seemed to believe that he would at the very least thank her, but his leaving the hospital without letting her know, not getting the will up to confess, hitomi's statement that she would be confessing herself, all added up to sort of breaking Sayaka's will. Some of the later stuff is obviously cause of the reveal of the soul gem and how her body "wasn't real" and that she couldn't love anyone that way. In my view at least Sayaka lacked an accurate idea of the consequences of her wish, which in my opinion, although not everyone agrees was actually tainted by selfish thoughts. Basically, Sayaka "wished for someone else" but really wanted part of that wish to be for her own happiness as well. I think in Madoka's world if you are wishing for someone else it needs to be 100% for them and not anything for yourself. I'm guessing most people, like Sayaka couldn't do that. I'm pretty sure that unless something big came up I couldn't do it for instance.

scr

2011-03-07, 10:21

@PzIVf3
Too bad it's not the long-haired Madoka...

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 10:34

What makes you say she was lacking? o_O?

I hate to say much here, because there's a lot to like about Sayaka, imo. She was a splendidly nice girl with a warm and friendly and admirable personality. In the beginning of this anime, she was also a very emotionally well-adjusted young person (which is what makes her fall that much more sad and tragic). Even with her fall, she still might be my favorite character in this entire anime.

However, she does have at least two key flaws:

1. When it comes to romance, she tries to accomplish everything in a roundabout way, trying to achieve that romance without being the one to have to make the first real move. She never confessed her feelings to Kamijo. She clearly was deeply in love with him, but tried to gain mutual love from him through earning gratitude, rather than through the usual means of a confession.

2. She had a tendency to jump to conclusions, and never really re-think much of anything. First impressions are everything to Sayaka, and die very hard if at all. We see this in how she approaches Homura and Kyoko through out the series. This is Sayaka's chief "blind spot", which ultimately hindered her.

In most magical girl animes, Sayaka's flaws here would be no big deals at all. In fact, in some cases they'd be non-factors and possibly even helpful. But in this anime, they severely tripped her up.

MaiNoKen

2011-03-07, 11:35

This looks shocking.

When and where are those pictures and interview posted?
Anyway... since you have not posted the synopsis of the pictures, this is what I can make out of it:

1) Episode 10 will have important revelations - it will make you change how you think about Homura.
2) You may want to re-watch 1-10 before 11 and 12, and some of the foreshadowing will become very obvious.
3) The title of the last picture is - Madoka telling Madoka "I want to help you"... :eyebrow:

So what new s**tstorm is brewing x_X?

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 11:43

When and where are those pictures and interview posted?
Anyway... since you have not posted the synopsis of the pictures, this is what I can make out of it:

1) Episode 10 will have important revelations - it will make you change how you think about Homura.
2) You may want to re-watch 1-10 before 11 and 12, and some of the foreshadowing will become very obvious.
3) The title of the last picture is - Madoka telling Madoka "I want to help you"... :eyebrow:

So what new s**tstorm is brewing x_X?

My guess: The Archer Theory (i.e. Homura = future Madoka) will be confirmed. That would fit beautifully with the three points you laid out here. If you re-watch the first few episodes of Madoka Magica with the "Archer Theory: Confirmed" idea in mind, a lot of scenes will kind of jump out at you more. Especially in the very first episode, imo.

While some people (including myself) have seriously considered the Archer Theory beforehand, it's probably only seriously held by relatively few people (I myself have wavered on it). So having it confirmed may change how a lot of people view Homura.

Jimmy C

2011-03-07, 11:45

1) Well, it's been one revelation after another since ep6, so having no revelations would've been the really surprising thing.
2) Good thing there's a whole week available for a rewatch.
3) That had better not a shapeshifted Kyubei in disguise...

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-07, 11:46

Dang.. I really don't like the idea of homura as madoka DX

MaiNoKen

2011-03-07, 12:18

The Archer Theory

I do favor that possibility. Of course, Gen has a knack in throwing curve balls and change ups. Nothing is assured unless you see the answer (and that is major charisma of the series).

With the identity and secrets of Homura revealed, the story is ready for the final showdown. Episode 10 is the natural point to do that.

Now... how would the story itself end is completely another story. So Homura = Madoka, QB, or whatever, then so what? The grand conflict between QB against everyone else must now close next (and that kind of depends who Homura really is herself).

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-07, 13:00

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 13:43

i think homura really
is madoka. it would explain why there's no present!homura. but i wonder, if madoka/homura died in the end..bec. if yes, how was she able to return in time? is madoka/homura's parents the main reason why she wants to stop herself from becoming an MG? Was she the Only One who remained in the future? she's like the new eve then? Aarggh! I WANT EP 10 ASAP!!

I have a theory here. Put in spoiler space to save space.

Maybe Madoka, in the original timeline, did become a witch. However, maybe Madoka actually found a way to free her soul from her witch-form and created a new body for her soul to inhabit. Out of love and admiration for her mother, Madoka created a body that looked a bit like a younger teenage version of her mom.

Her original body was left lifeless, just as Sayaka's was in Episode 9. As far as Madoka's parents knew, their daughter had suddenly died from some weird unknown cause. They likely buried her body, and held a funeral for her, all while Madoka's soul fought to free itself from the witch form.

After creating a new body for herself, the body we recognize as "Homura", Madoka went to her parent's house and saw how sad and devastated they were by the passing of Madoka, by her original body's death. She may have seen Hitomi and/or Sayaka continue on with life as normal, having seemingly forgotten all about Madoka.

It's possible that Madoka (in her new "Homura" body) tried to convince her parents and/or her friends that she was Madoka, only in a different body. They probably thought this was some very sick strange girl playing a particularly nasty prank. :heh:

So nobody believed Madoka, and Madoka became isolated and very lonely, totally cut off from her family, her friends, and even society at large. As far as the world was concerned, Madoka was dead and the Madoka in the new body was a non-entity. Feeling like she had completely lost her true identity, Madoka chose a "cool" new name for herself and her new body, as a means of coping with events and helping herself move forward in life. She chose the name "Homura". Homura then decided to go back in time to prevent these horrible events from ever occurring.

This would explain all of the following:

1. Homura doesn't consider herself human. This is because she kind of isn't any more. Her body is an artificial synthetic construct of sorts.

2. In episode 1, Homura grimaced when Madoka commented on how cool and unusual Homura's name is. This may be a painful reminder to Homura of what she has lost in becoming Homura, as it relates back to why she chose the name Homura for herself.

3. Homura notably grimaces during some of her tense confrontations with Mami. This may be because Homura was close to Mami in the original timeline (when Homura was still Madoka) and hence hates to now be at odds with Mami.

4. Homura showed caring towards Sayaka in Episode 6 (rushing after Sayaka's soul gem to save it). However, she also displays a certain degree of resentment towards Sayaka, in my opinion. Taken together, these look like the actions of a jilted friend. In other words, there's residual feelings of friendship for Sayaka, but they are soured considerably by how Homura saw Sayaka forget about Madoka in the original timeline.

5. Sayaka forgetting about Madoka in the original timeline could also play in nicely to how Homura reacted to Madoka's claim of "I will never forget Mami!" in the current timeline.

6. It would explain Homura's "irregular nature", as a magical girl that's successfully passed through the witch phase into a completely new phase.

7. This in turn would explain how Homura was not as confident as Kyubey was of the inevitable failure of Kyoko's attempt to rescue Sayaka (evidenced by Homura questioning Kyubey about it). Since Homura was able to somewhat recover from being a witch, perhaps she held out some small glimmer of hope that Sayaka would too.

8. Kyubey said that Madoka's magical girl potential was unrivaled, and that she could even "change the laws of nature". Well, that could explain how Homura was able to recover from her witch form.

9. Homura stated in Episode 7 that there were some things that she didn't reveal to Madoka because she didn't think Madoka would believe her. This would be consistent with the disbelief that Homura ran into from Hitomi, Sayaka, and/or her parents in the original timeline.

Well, there you go. A somewhat "out there" theory, but it fits the facts at least, I think.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-07, 13:58

I think the biggest question would be Madoka's dream vision at the beginning of ep1. It was almost a vision of the future. How could a supposedly ordinary girl have a vision? It's too specific to be a concidence, especially in a story where the writer places details in for a specific reason.

Somehow Madoka is connected to a future self where she is already a Puella Magi. The new magazine scans aren't a big revelation, because the opening sequence showed two Madokas. Perhaps it is possible for Madoka to awaken to her powers without a contract with Kyubey.

The Archer theory doesn't exactly fit, because Archer was a character who regretted his past, and sought to destroy himself to prevent his own future from happening. The Puella Magi Madoka seems like a guardian angel who gives the human Madoka the power she needs to make her hopes come true.

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 14:05

Shadow5YA

2011-03-07, 14:09

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 14:12

Unless ep10 reveals Homura to be a much, much kinder person, I don't see her being a future Madoka. She does not care about anyone but Madoka, while Madoka cares about everyone. Homura doesn't always help Madoka either.

That's one of the key problems with the "Homura = future Madoka" theory, yeah.

However, going by my extension off of it, maybe becoming a witch truly twisted original Madoka into the Homura that she is now. :shrug:

The "Homura = future Madoka" theory certainly isn't the only possibility, of course. It's just my somewhat educated guess here given those magazine reveals.

Whatever Episode 10 reveals, I'm looking forward to it. It'll be great to finally know who exactly Homura is...

AvatarST

2011-03-07, 14:36

That's one of the key problems with the "Homura = future Madoka" theory, yeah.

However, going by my extension off of it, maybe becoming a witch truly twisted original Madoka into the Homura that she is now. :shrug:

The "Homura = future Madoka" theory certainly isn't the only possibility, of course. It's just my somewhat educated guess here given those magazine reveals.

Whatever Episode 10 reveals, I'm looking forward to it. It'll be great to finally know who exactly Homura is...

Alternatively, the reason Homura (future Madoka) is so obsessed with present Madoka is that she knows exactly how horrible things will get if she turns into a witch. Let's say your theory is true, Madoka turned into a witch, and murders a huge amount of people or nearly destroys the world. It's possible Homura's focusing on her present self because she sees her as by far the biggest threat and number one thing to stop.

Or maybe this Madoka has a cynical view of the world for different reasons. She may have gone through these events multiple times, or what Triple_R said happened, or maybe there's other reason. But it's not impossible for Madoka to have lost her kind nature due to events we don't know yet. She's shown hints of concern after all, for Mami when she died (and before she fought Charlotte), and for Kyoko when she knew she was going to get herself killed.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-07, 14:41

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9797/129949862182816104211up.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/i/129949862182816104211up.jpg/)

Don't know how accurate this is but:

まず１０話を観てください。ほむらのことを見直します！そして、もし
ずっと録画していらっしゃる方がいたら、１１、１２話の前に、１話を観て

いただきたい。きっとぜんぜん違う物語に見えてくると思うんです。それ
てすごく贅沢のことですよね。１回観てだまされているわけじゃないです
か。でもそれって無茶苦茶気持ちいい騙され方ですよ、たぶん。最後まで超

期待してください。ハードルを最大級まで上げてください！この作品はき
っとそれを飛び越えられる作品です。

"Please first just watch episode 10. You'll see Homura in a much better light. And for any viewers out there who have been recording the whole thing, please watch the first episode before episodes 11 and 12. It'll totally look like two completely different shows. I think that's pretty cool. It's as if the first time you watched it you were completely fooled. But the good kind of fooled...maybe. Please watch all the way to the end. And set the bar high. This show will definitely surpass that."

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 15:06

Wow, I can't wait until Episode 10. :)

This is going to be great!

What Kazu-kun translated there would fit the Archer theory, I think. If the Archer theory is correct, everybody who can should definitely re-watch the 1st episode, just for all the "Aha!" moments it'll give with little clues being realized.

However, what Kazu-kun translated could allude to something even more compelling. Something perhaps that hasn't even been speculated yet. Given the entropy reveal, that is genuinely possible.

MaiNoKen

2011-03-07, 15:07

Need episode 10... soon...
Damn you, Shaft! Damn you, Nitroplus!

Kazu-kun

2011-03-07, 15:15

What Kazu-kun translated.

It's not mine. I just took it from somewhere lol

Anyway, I can see Homura's VA knows how to hype her shit up. :heh: I'm just hoping she's not bluffing.

totoum

2011-03-07, 15:16

Please watch all the way to the end. And set the bar high. This show will definitely surpass that.

I'm remembering that quote,because that's quite some confidence they're showing.And if it turns out it's just madoka=homura then no they won't surpass my expectation,people have been speculating that since episode 1

There is definatly a connection though,homura's soulgem is pink afterall,I just hope it's more complex than Homura=Madoka,it wouldn't ruin the show for me,not even close,but it definatly wouldn't "wow" me.

Of course I've already rewatched episode 1 and 2 a few times,maybe I wouldn't be saaying this if I hadn't.

MaiNoKen

2011-03-07, 15:19

And set the bar high. This show will definitely surpass that.

They are already thinking the legacy of the series x_X

AvatarST

2011-03-07, 15:21

Need episode 10... soon...
Damn you, Shaft! Damn you, Nitroplus!

Thursday can't come soon enough, eh?

I can't remember being this excited about an anime in literally ages, and the way I see it, loads of people feel that way too. Does anyone else?

Shadow5YA

2011-03-07, 15:27

I'm remembering that quote,because that's quite some confidence they're showing.And if it turns out it's just madoka=homura then no they won't surpass my expectation,people have been speculating that since episode 1

There is definatly a connection though,homura's soulgem is pink afterall,I just hope it's more complex than Homura=Madoka,it wouldn't ruin the show for me,not even close,but it definatly wouldn't "wow" me.

Of course I've already rewatched episode 1 and 2 a few times,maybe I wouldn't be saaying this if I hadn't.

What? I thought Homura's Soul Gem was purple.

I think Homura is just MG Madoka's friend from another time. From teaching her how to fight to how to protect others, Homura was Madoka's ally. However, Madoka met a tragic end, and Homura is in grief. She becomes a bit cynical and resigns only to protect Madoka in the past and nobody else. Ep10 will probably show us why she cares about Madoka so much, and that Homura protecting Madoka not just because of a future she regrets, but because she truly cares about Madoka.

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 15:28

I'm remembering that quote,because that's quite some confidence they're showing.And if it turns out it's just madoka=homura then no they won't surpass my expectation,people have been speculating that since episode 1

There is definatly a connection though,homura's soulgem is pink afterall,I just hope it's more complex than Homura=Madoka,it wouldn't ruin the show for me,not even close,but it definatly wouldn't "wow" me.

Of course I've already rewatched episode 1 and 2 a few times,maybe I wouldn't be saaying this if I hadn't.

The same applies to me.

It's only through rewatching Episodes 1 and 3, and paying closer attention to the OP, that the Archer Theory even occurred to me (keep in mind that I wasn't following all the posters and sites putting forward the Archer theory before then). There's these tiny little hints in Episode 1 that may just perplex a person on first viewing, but kind of pop out at you on second viewing if you watch them with "Maybe Homura is future Madoka" in mind.

I'd be quite satisfied if the Archer Theory ends up being correct. It would wow some viewers, just not the folks who engage the most in series speculations, like we do. :heh:

Of course, it could be something else entirely, and I'll (probably) be happy with that as well. :)

AvatarST

2011-03-07, 15:47

The same applies to me.

It's only through rewatching Episodes 1 and 3, and paying closer attention to the OP, that the Archer Theory even occurred to me (keep in mind that I wasn't following all the posters and sites putting forward the Archer theory before then). There's these tiny little hints in Episode 1 that may just perplex a person on first viewing, but kind of pop out at you on second viewing if you watch them with "Maybe Homura is future Madoka" in mind.

I'd be quite satisfied if the Archer Theory ends up being correct. It would wow some viewers, just not the folks who engage the most in series speculations, like we do. :heh:

Of course, it could be something else entirely, and I'll (probably) be happy with that as well. :)

The main thing that set all "Homura might be Madoka" alarms off for me was the pink soul gem. And then the fact that checking official art...you can find out that they both use bows as their weapon of choice. So there's more supporting evidence for your theory, in case you momentarily forgot about it...

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't see that the pink soul gem thing was in the post you answered. The bow still applies, though.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-07, 15:47

I think Homura is just MG Madoka's friend from another time. From teaching her how to fight to how to protect others, Homura was Madoka's ally. However, Madoka met a tragic end, and Homura is in grief. She becomes a bit cynical and resigns only to protect Madoka in the past.

Think about this. In episode 7, when Madoka told Homura she would like to do something for Sayaka because Sayaka's her friend and saved her before, Homura said, don't mix gratitude with responsibility...

Considering that, if Homura was just a friend that wanted to save Madoka out of friendship and gratitude, she would be a fucking hypocrite for saying that to Madoka in episode 7. I don't think she's like that and I definitely don't think this line was just coincidence...

After 9 episodes I'm pretty convinced Homura isn't like that. Homura definitely loves Madoka, but she's trying to save her no just out of friendship but also because it's her responsibility somehow. So forcibly she has to be either Madoka herself, or someone from her family (like her mother or daughter), or a part of Madoka herself (like a familiar) but definitely not just a friend.

Just my two cents, but I'm calling it!!

MaiNoKen

2011-03-07, 15:49

It's only through rewatching Episodes 1 and 3, and paying closer attention to the OP, that the Archer Theory even occurred to me (keep in mind that I wasn't following all the posters and sites putting forward the Archer theory before then). There's these tiny little hints in Episode 1 that may just perplex a person on first viewing, but kind of pop out at you on second viewing if you watch them with "Maybe Homura is future Madoka" in mind.

For sure, the series has done a great job in creating suspense and speculation. Of course, someone will figure out the suspense and foreshadowing ahead of time. However, it takes good story writing skills to get people to even think and speculate about the suspense and foreshadowing. The fact the creators managed to get you thinking is a sign of skill from the creators.

Triple_R

2011-03-07, 16:08

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't see that the pink soul gem thing was in the post you answered. The bow still applies, though.

Good point on the bow. That's a pretty big piece of supporting evidence there, yeah.

Think about this. In episode 7, when Madoka told Homura she would like to do something for Sayaka because Sayaka's her friend and saved her before, Homura said, don't mix gratitude with responsibility...

Considering that, if Homura was just a friend that wanted to save Madoka out of friendship and gratitude, she would be a fucking hypocrite for saying that to Madoka in episode 7. I don't think she's like that and I definitely don't think this line was just coincidence...

After 9 episodes I'm pretty convinced Homura isn't like that. Homura definitely loves Madoka, but she's trying to save her no just out of friendship but also because it's her responsibility somehow. So forcibly she has to be either Madoka herself, or someone from her family (like her mother or daughter), or a part of Madoka herself (like a familiar) but definitely not just a friend.

Just my two cents, but I'm calling it!!

Very good observations. Homura as Madoka's daughter is a fascinating idea, that I've never encountered before. Now that would wow a lot of people, even most people on this board I think. It would mean, though, that Madoka lasted a long time as a magical girl before becoming a witch - long enough to actually become pregnant and give birth to Homura.

Also makes me wonder who the father might be, lol. :heh:

For sure, the series has done a great job in creating suspense and speculation. Of course, someone will figure out the suspense and foreshadowing ahead of time. However, it takes good story writing skills to get people to even think and speculate about the suspense and foreshadowing. The fact the creators managed to get you thinking is a sign of skill from the creators.

Agreed. :)

Solace

2011-03-07, 16:14

3) The title of the last picture is - Madoka telling Madoka "I want to help you"... :eyebrow:

Hmm. I should repost my speculah from the episode 8 thread then.

Why would Homura go to an *alternate* past time, when she could just go back to her own past time if her only goal was to prevent Madoka from contracting? My theory is that the answer lies in the OP of the show, the older Madoka and the younger one. We see the older one merging into the younger one, why? What would happen if, say, Madoka from this time was able to get a hold of the powers of the Madoka from the alternate time?

No contract, incredible power (assuming Kyubey isn't lying, which so far he really hasn't), and potentially even immunity from becoming a Witch because the gem/power isn't *technically* hers. The only issue would be what price would be paid to do this, since the show has set a precedent for actions having consequences. I have a feeling that is tied to why Madoka can't remember Homura.

I should mention that at this point I don't trust Kyubey at all, but in this one particular instance I do think he is telling the truth. Madoka is important for a reason. It may not be her becoming a super weapon of sorts but she is clearly important enough for both Kyubey and Homura to obsess over.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-07, 16:30

Homura as Madoka's daughter is a fascinating idea, that I've never encountered before. Now that would wow a lot of people, even most people on this board I think. It would mean, though, that Madoka lasted a long time as a magical girl before becoming a witch - long enough to actually become pregnant and give birth to Homura.

Not necessarily. It could just be a weird paradox at work. For example, there's a point in time when Madoka is 14 and makes a contract and dies. Then there's another point in time in the future, when Madoka is, say, 40 and has 14 years old daughter Homura. When the Madoka from point A dies, Madoka from point B disappears (Back to the Future style) and Homura begins to disappear too. But right then QB appears and Homura makes a contract with him to go back in time to see what the hell happened and fix it....

or something :heh:

Xellos-_^

2011-03-07, 16:38

another crazy ending prediction

madoka is about to make a contract but is stop when Homura kills her. Homura is then kill by the MegaWitch. The MegaWitch also kills Hitmoi, Kamijo, Madoka and Sayaka's family.

totoum

2011-03-07, 17:06

Ok crazy wild theory just for the hell of it,I'm starting to look at a theory that was mentioned after episode 8 by a few people:Homura is sayaka from an alt timeline.

In an alt timeline Sayaka became a witch much like she did here,but madoka did what she nearly did in this timeline:she contracted, became a magical girl and used her power to turn Sayaka back to a magical girl,she didn't get her body back but has a new one and since it's madoka giving her her power her soulgem is madoka's color (the anime would do a much better job of explaining this than me).

She definatly has completely different views from sayaka but hey,turning into a witch will probably change your outlook on life a bit,Homura might have developed a bit of self loathing in the process too,after all her last words in episode 8 just before turning into a witch are that she thinks she's been a fool,so Homura thinking this about sayaka would seem logical.
Now,why not try and stop her alt self from contracting?Maybe she's tried in her first attempts to change things but failed ("people didn't believe me") and now has resorted to hoping Madoka will ignore her alt self and carry on with her life,maybe she thinks a fool like her is not worth being saved.
Also,Homura stopped madoka several times before she contracted with QB,when she does so,she stay pretty cool ("that will not be necessary") the only time she completely flips is when madoka wants to save Sayaka,the reason she'd lose it emotionaly is because this is the exact wish she's trying to prevent.
And then this is quite trivial but yuri fans have had quite some fun with HomuraxMadoka,there was a running gag in episode 2 about "forbiden love" between Sayaka and Madoka.Ok I guess I'm starting to reach here,but still,the more I think of it,the more it makes sense

Kazu-kun

2011-03-07, 17:20

I was thinking... The only one who knows QB's true identity as Incubator (provided he's not lying) in this time line is Madoka herself.... Homura knows too, but she's from a different timeline.

See where I'm going? Just a thought, but this supports the Madoka = Homura theory.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-07, 17:45

Now that would wow a lot of people, even most people on this board I think.

Its not a new theory. garbage first mentioned it back in episode 7's thread. You can see it mentioned as one of the speculations by risingstar3110 on page 39 of this thread itself.

ThereminVox

2011-03-07, 18:29

At this point, might as well just "spin the wheel" to guess Homura's identity, if indeed she has one that we'd recognize. I'm sure dozens have said this, but it might be most interesting if she's Madoka's mother, since she kind of looks like her, and her role in the series is a bit unclear - so far.. still 3 eps for her to play into it in another way. Doesn't quite work though, since QB isn't interested in older, more stable women, and if she's her mom's Puella Magi iteration from the past... That doesn't work either, because if one thing's been made clear, it's that Magical Girls don't get to "retire" and go have a family.

It would answer a LOT of questions, but it just doesn't seem to scan.

Seitsuki

2011-03-07, 18:56

Taking my cue from the lyrics of Magia (what with Kalafina songs apparently holding quite a bit of meaning):

Despite all the ordnance raging around in the QB debate I do believe everyone agrees that he's hardly got humanity's best interests at heart. Also, while it's debatable whether he lies or just tells you stuff you need to know instead of stuff you NEED to know he's hardly a very honest guileless character. So: concerning the entropy issue (or possibly the heat-death theory but theyjust didn't do the research): perhaps QBs race/creators live in a different part of the universe, or another dimension altogether, where entropy is an imminent problem. Or at least at a stage where they're worrying about it. Hence, they are desperately searching for alternative sources of energy. One of which is this "powered by heart" stuff magical girls/witches produce.

One part of the lyrics: "...will transcend time, and destroy the dreams of a world racing towards destruction".

Another part: "if I can follow my path withoput wavering, I care not if my heart shatters... to confront the sadness before my eyes"

Well at this rate it seems pretty certain that Madoka will contract. I think it would be a huge anticlimax if we finish the series and she ends up doing nothing. Now of course, the issue is *what she wishes for*. Since she has the power to "change the universe" any random deus ex machina conclusion is possible, but-

Yet another part: "let's watch a never-ending dream, within the time I walk with you"

We know that it's Homura doing the whole time jumping thing, but what if the one who set up the loop was Madoka herself? Somewhere, sometime, Madoka saw the endless sorrows and pain people/mahou shoujous go through in such a system and either using her wish or her own powers as a magical girl, set up a loop where Homura is able to go back to her past self *without* QBs people knowing about her own involvement to try and somehow break the chain. Which may also explain Homura's reluctance to explain things. Or something.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-07, 19:30

I Think Homura/Madoka's line, 'I won't rely on anyone anymore.' would explain Madoka's fall into Homura. Madoka chose to be independent and see things non-ideally thus she became the cold homura..ah, mah yuri fantasy just flew out the window by a mile.. LOL.

if miracle is true, GIMME EPISODE 10 RITE NOW!! GAHH! i can't concentrate on things bec. i'm so effin thrilled!!

no matter what happens though, I'll always love homura as homura(not madoka)

erneiz_hyde

2011-03-07, 19:41

What? What? Suddenly the picture I posted here regarding Homura's and Madoka's name is really supported?

As promised I will proceed to roflmao after watching ep.10 if this is true XD

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-07, 20:19

What? What? Suddenly the picture I posted here regarding Homura's and Madoka's name is really supported?

As promised I will proceed to roflmao after watching ep.10 if this is true XD

yeah, definitely supported. i'm 100 percent sure now that homura is madoka. period.

i wont LOL though. i'll cry..

Deconstructor

2011-03-07, 20:38

"Please watch all the way to the end. And set the bar high. This show will definitely surpass that."

You pretentious bastard!
Of course, I love you anyway.

I have a feeling many people, including myself, will be disappointed because we set the bar too high. At this point, I am expecting something legendary. The very limited experience I have with Shaft compels me to ignore everything they say.

MaiNoKen

2011-03-07, 20:47

At this point, I am expecting something legendary.

I think we are in legendary territory already. x_X

I re-watched episode 1 just right now. I was intrigued by the conversation when Madoka and Homura walking to the nurse room. What does it mean by "Madoka, you should not try to be someone else, or you will lose everything"? And how would that tie up with "I want to save myself" and the possibility of Homura = Madoka.

(Think)

hyperborealis

2011-03-07, 22:44

The fact that Homura can time-travel suggest a QB level of advanced technology. Therefore:

a) Homura and QB are both from the far future. There are different factions about the morality of harvesting emotional energy out of the past. QB and Homura are on opposite sides, fighting a war through time over this issue. Standard time-travel trope.

b) Homura is a far distant descendant of Madoka. If she can prevent Madoka from becoming a MG, then Madoka will have children, ultimately leading to Homura being born. If Homura fails, she will never have existed. This is another standard time-travel trope.

Wow, I hope neither of these are true--they're so cliched they're beyond boring!!!

Homura looks like a magical girl, so I guess she has to be human. I was going to suggest that she is not human, that she is in fact a member of QB's species. They have the tech to make physical appearance arbitrary--so QB shows up as the stereotypical cute animal familiar, and Homura shows up as a magical girl, taking on disguises in the mahou shoujo form, the better to carry on their fight among the natives. How realistic is it anyway for aliens of the far future to exactly resemble magical girl mascots? Even if Homura is human, it's equally unlikely that the descendants of humans from the far future will be identical to us current humans either. If we know that either Homura or QB are from the far future (far enough for evolution to be a significant factor), then we know their current appearances are artificial.

So I think next week's big reveal will be that Homura is also an alien, one in human disguise. Her real appearance: an ugly version of QB!!! Ok, not that--more likely, a cat...

So I've overlooked a dozen dozen obvious reasons why none of this can happen--it's still fun to think about!!!!

Dr. Casey

2011-03-07, 22:47

I have a feeling many people, including myself, will be disappointed because we set the bar too high. At this point, I am expecting something legendary. The very limited experience I have with Shaft compels me to ignore everything they say.

I don't think I can set the bar too high. I always expect great things from Madoka, and I always get great things. I love this show, so I'm sure that no matter how much hype is swirled around I'll still hang onto every second of the new episode like I always do. Nice to see the guy has so much faith in his creation, though. :heh:

Also makes me wonder who the father might be, lol.

Kamijou. Hitomi wanted to steal Kamijou away from Sayaka, so Madoka has an affair with Kamijou to reclaim Sayaka's fallen honor. It will make for some great drama in the final three episodes.

Deconstructor

2011-03-07, 23:18

I don't think I can set the bar too high. I always expect great things from Madoka, and I always get great things. I love this show, so I'm sure that no matter how much hype is swirled around I'll still hang onto every second of the new episode like I always do. Nice to see the guy has so much faith in his creation, though. :heh:

I expect greatness from Madoka as well; I just hesitate to consider it among my greatest anime of all time. However, I will give testimony to why I enjoy watching.

Madoka is the most serious anime I have seen in a long time. The story is based on the simple premise of an exchange - any wish to become a magical girl. Both seem like positive things I would want in my life. However, Madoka has twisted my conceptions of both ideas, and suggests that not everything is sunshine and rainbows (or giant boobs, if you want to go Freezing/Infinite Stratos). That alone got me interested in watching another episode.

The characters are also very enjoyable. Everyone has seen the many different personalities displayed in Madoka - timid, zealous, lonely, lazy, serious. Breaking the innocent cuties is also nothing particularly groundbreaking. Instead, my enjoyment stems from the intense and diverse emotions each character displays in times of total despair. In popular terms, the drama of tragedy. Each character's depressing story is well-executed, and makes a bold statement about their personalities. For example, Sayaka was an overzealous girl who initially held onto ideals of justice. Kamijou, her crush, was afflicted by a crippling disability to his hands; Sayaka saw that as injustice. Then Kyubey knocks on her door, offering power. Unable to resist, Sayaka grew obsessed with her ideals of justice, turning a blind eye to her friendships. Ultimately, Sayaka ignores the people that care about her the most, and kills the people initially sought to protect.

I can no longer look at a magical girl without invoking tragic memories of Madoka Magica. The emotional effect is so strong because we see the magical girl, a symbol of purity and innocence, brought down and transformed into murderous killers. I also used to see the magical girl as a miracle with no drawbacks - a random mascot walks up to a normal girl and asks if they want to save innocent people. No one cares about the mascot himself; he's just a necessary part at the beginning, and eyecandy every episode thereafter. I think if I have learned one thing from Madoka, it is that looks can be completely deceiving. Kyubey, wishes, magical girls... those dreams are utter lies. Only suffering comes from miracles.

Alas, I could (and want) to write more, but I will save it for the finale of the show.

Ginrai

2011-03-07, 23:27

After 9 episodes I'm pretty convinced Homura isn't like that. Homura definitely loves Madoka, but she's trying to save her no just out of friendship but also because it's her responsibility somehow. So forcibly she has to be either Madoka herself, or someone from her family (like her mother or daughter), or a part of Madoka herself (like a familiar) but definitely not just a friend.

And it suddenly comes together...

Homura is Mahou Shoujo Madoka's familiar! Nearly all of this series is within a world created by Madoka, who wants everyone to live happy lives. Homura is trying to make sure that everything turns out right or 'reset' it to try again.

Or all of the above except that Homura is a magical girl who entered Madoka's world and is trying to find a way to save her. Killing Madoka would only result in another grief seed for Kyubey. Plus this would explain what Kyubey meant by Madoka being the strongest magical girl/witch (her world isn't a surreal mess like that of other witches), why Homura doesn't really try to protect anyone else (she doesn't consider them real) or tell the truth (she's afraid that doing so will shatter the world and quickly lead to Kyubey's victory) as well as why Homura 'time traveled' and yet Madoka seemed to know the 'future' as well.

The OP is Madoka's idea of a perfect world. And, to make things really screwy, every failure by Homura resulted in Madoka making a wish and creating a new world within her world. The ED represents Homura trying to prevent Madoka from making that mistake yet again.

And this could also mean that the Homura=Sayaka theory is still in play! ;)

AvatarST

2011-03-08, 00:15

Triple_R

2011-03-08, 00:31

Kamijou. Hitomi wanted to steal Kamijou away from Sayaka, so Madoka has an affair with Kamijou to reclaim Sayaka's fallen honor. It will make for some great drama in the final three episodes.

That could help to explain Homura's hair color, and general disposition...

omimon

2011-03-08, 03:24

http://yarareyaku.com/archives/51709201.html
http://yarareyaku.com/archives/51709253.html

Two stories to hold you guys over until Thursday. Something about a last wish and something about episode 10 from Saito Chiwa.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-08, 05:30

Think about this. In episode 7, when Madoka told Homura she would like to do something for Sayaka because Sayaka's her friend and saved her before, Homura said, don't mix gratitude with responsibility...

Considering that, if Homura was just a friend that wanted to save Madoka out of friendship and gratitude, she would be a fucking hypocrite for saying that to Madoka in episode 7. I don't think she's like that and I definitely don't think this line was just coincidence...

After 9 episodes I'm pretty convinced Homura isn't like that. Homura definitely loves Madoka, but she's trying to save her no just out of friendship but also because it's her responsibility somehow. So forcibly she has to be either Madoka herself, or someone from her family (like her mother or daughter), or a part of Madoka herself (like a familiar) but definitely not just a friend.

Just my two cents, but I'm calling it!!

What Homura meant is that while Madoka should be grateful that Sayaka helped her, she is not obligated to return the favor. Friends don't force others to pay something back in return.

Likewise, Homura is going through all this trouble not because she feels that owes something to Madoka, but because she really cares about her.

However, because of how cold Homura is, it would seem as if there's no way she could care for someone unless it was an obligation. I am expecting ep10 to reveal the emotional side of Homura and how she is truly driven with her own will to save Madoka, not because of some moral obligation to another person.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-08, 14:34

What Homura meant is that while Madoka should be grateful that Sayaka helped her, she is not obligated to return the favor. Friends don't force others to pay something back in return.

This doesn't make sense with the context of the conversation, since it is Homura who said Madoka should give up on Sayaka because she didn't owe her anything.

So no, I don't think Homura wants to save Madoka just out of friendship and gratitude. She somehow has a responsibility with her. That's my take.

Let's wait and see what happens.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-08, 17:27

This doesn't make sense with the context of the conversation, since it is Homura who said Madoka should give up on Sayaka because she didn't owe her anything.

That's why it makes sense. Madoka did not owe Sayaka anything and is not required to return a favor.

Homura by that same token is not required to save Madoka. She is not Madoka's bodyguard, servant, or soldier. Homura is not required to save the world. If she was, she could have killed Madoka to prevent her from making a contract.

So no, I don't think Homura wants to save Madoka just out of friendship and gratitude. She somehow has a responsibility with her. That's my take.

Let's wait and see what happens.

Friendship and gratitude do not always go together. Madoka wanting to save Sayaka because she cares about her well-being is different from Madoka wanting to save Sayaka because Sayaka saved her first.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-08, 17:53

That's why it makes sense. Madoka did not owe Sayaka anything and is not required to return a favor.

I think we're just looking at this from a different perspective.

Anyway, Homura say give up on Sayaka because you don't owe her anything and it's not your responsibility to save her. This implies that if it was Madoka's responsibility, it would be ok (in Homura's eyes) to help Sayaka.

That's why I think is highly possible Homura is trying to save Madoka no only out of love, but also because it is somehow her responsibility, which it would make sense if she was a member of Madoka's family (her mother?) or Madoka's familiar (the cat?). If that was the case, she would try to save Madoka both because she loves her but also because it's her responsibility, her mission to save her.

Angelmonster

2011-03-09, 11:58

I think we're just looking at this from a different perspective.

Anyway, Homura say give up on Sayaka because you don't owe her anything and it's not your responsibility to save her. This implies that if it was Madoka's responsibility, it would be ok (in Homura's eyes) to help Sayaka.

That's what I think is highly possible Homura is trying to save Madoka no only out of love, but also because it is somehow her responsibility, which it would make sense if she was a member of Madoka's family (her mother?) or Madoka's familiar (the cat?). If that was the case, she would try to save Madoka both because she loves her but also because it's her responsibility, her mission to save her.

It is pretty obvious to everyone that it is Homura's mission to save Madoka, whether it is a mission Homura gave to herself or if it is a mission future/other world-Madoka gave her. No one can really argue that it is not her mission, just debate on who gave it to her and why she is doing it.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-09, 12:17

I don't agree. When Homura said saving Sayaka isn't her responsiblity, it means that it's not her responsibility. Gratitude does not create a responsibility.

I think Homura is attempting to protect Madoka because she wants to, not because she has to.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-09, 15:02

I think Homura is attempting to protect Madoka because she wants to, not because she has to.

I don't think so, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Anyway, I expect we'll know for sure tomorrow.

MaiNoKen

2011-03-09, 16:00

Anyway, I expect we'll know for sure tomorrow.

(Entering Otaku mode)
I will be pleased if my Homu-chan didn't die tomorrow... :(

Kazu-kun

2011-03-09, 16:01

(Entering Otaku mode)
I will be pleased if my Homu-chan didn't die tomorrow... :(

I'm not worry about that. I don't even think it's possible anyway.

Hagoshod

2011-03-09, 16:09

Considering that, if Homura was just a friend that wanted to save Madoka out of friendship and gratitude, she would be a fucking hypocrite for saying that to Madoka in episode 7. I don't think she's like that and I definitely don't think this line was just coincidence...
Factor in what she says in episode 8, and you get a better taste of just how hypocritical she is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/tenshousouhazan/derpmura.jpg

i.e.: Yes, Homura. She is thinking about the people who care about her. She's thinking about Sayaka. Just because she's not thinking about you specifically doesn't mean she's heartless or overly self-sacrificial.

Homura's rationale right now boils down to "No, don't worry about what the people around you think! Worry about what _I_ think! I need more attention than them! Me! MEMEMEMEME!" It doesn't make her look deep or mysterious; it just makes her look like a little attentionwhoring bitch. She's not exactly going into the big episode 10 reveal in the most sympathetic light.

btw I'm not sure if you guys know I hate Homura, but I do. Just so you know.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-09, 16:41

ruurguy

2011-03-09, 16:42

Factor in what she says in episode 8, and you get a better taste of just how hypocritical she is.

i.e.: Yes, Homura. She is thinking about the people who care about her. She's thinking about Sayaka. Just because she's not thinking about you specifically doesn't mean she's heartless or overly self-sacrificial.

Homura's rationale right now boils down to "No, don't worry about what the people around you think! Worry about what _I_ think! I need more attention than them! Me! MEMEMEMEME!" It doesn't make her look deep or mysterious; it just makes her look like a little attentionwhoring bitch. She's not exactly going into the big episode 10 reveal in the most sympathetic light.

btw I'm not sure if you guys know I hate Homura, but I do. Just so you know.

I think she is more referring to people like Madoka's family, and not the at that time she felt unredeemable Sayaka when she said that. Sayaka had already rejected Homura's grief seed and was well on her way to becoming a witch which Homura knew about. If you hate her right now that's fine, I think it may be best to reserve final judgment just a bit longer til maybe after episode 10 when we probably find out who Homura really is.

Hagoshod

2011-03-09, 17:30

So when Homura says "think about the people who care about you" she doesn't take Sayaka into consideration, because she thinks Sayaka is no more.
And she thinks Sayaka is no more because she cuts through line and places herself above Sayaka on Madoka's "people who care about her" list. Unlike Kyoko, she didn't even give Sayaka a chance for redemption because that would interfere with her own feelings for Madoka.

That kind of action can easily be seen as being entirely ego-driven and hypocritical. There may very well be a valid reason for Homura to act the way she does, and I'll be glad to re-interpret her character when this becomes clear, but as it stands Homura's entire justification is "I won't let you become a Magical Girl because I want you to care about ME."

radicalbyte

2011-03-09, 17:33

Homura looks like a magical girl, so I guess she has to be human!!

What if she's a magical girl from another race. A race who, in the past, were used by QB's race as power source? A race who then took the fight to QB's race? And won (by killing their emotions?)?

But then lost to the Madoka "super witch", so she went back in time to try and stop it?

The Terminator plot, but with added ET.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-09, 17:35

And she thinks Sayaka is no more because she cuts through line and places herself above Sayaka on Madoka's "people who care about her" list.

No, she thinks Sayaka is no more because she's a magical girl becoming a witch.

Besides you don't even know that Homura included herself as part of her "people who care about you" line. Chances are she didn't, since she has said before that she already gave up on herself too.

You're just jumping to conclusions without the whole picture.

Hagoshod

2011-03-09, 17:51

You're just jumping to conclusions without the whole picture.
What exactly would you call your own argument? Saying "Nope. Homura is a good character and her actions are completely justified" is just as much of a logical leap given information we currently have.

Velore

2011-03-09, 17:56

ruurguy

2011-03-09, 18:06

Quick question: Do you think Mami is alive considering the zombie-body thingy?

Also, if Homura knew everything about Mahou Shoujos becoming witches, why didn't she just say that to Sayaka so she wouldn't go for it?

I would have to go back to watch but I would guess no for Mami. I believe we hear Mami's soul gem get crushed, and she wears it on her head, which was well, an unfortunate spot for it. Plus, at least in the anime we see her un-transform back into her school uniform.

As for telling Sayaka, I guess it depends when you mean? Sayaka is rather untrusting of Homura the whole time. From noticing Homura staring at Madoka in class initially when first introduced to being relayed what sounds like a threat that Homura made to Madoka (think how the whole 'if you care about your family and friends feel, you will stay the same' can sound like a threat vs a warning.) And chasing QB around in episode 1, and later 'letting Mami die just to get a grief seed'. So there was really few if any opportunities based on how their early interactions went that Sayaka would believe anything Homura says.

Velore

2011-03-09, 18:44

^

Well if Homura said the truth, Kyuubey wouldn't deny it. And then there would be no way for the girls to become Magi.

Also I wonder what was the relationship between Homura and Madoka in the other timeline, maybe they were best friends and Homura watched her sacrifice herself to destroy some poweful witch?

GDB

2011-03-09, 19:27

Xellos-_^

2011-03-09, 21:57

So, here's a flaw/glitch/unknown in Kyuubei's plan:

He said back in episode 4 that he expected another Magi to show up to replace Mami. Kyoko then shows up later that episode. However, he said he was surprised that she showed up. Does this mean that he was expecting someone else in particular, or just that he didn't think Kyoko would be the one to show up?

Either way, the main point is that she showed up because Mami vacated the area. Now, her replacements in Sayaka and Kyoko are both gone. Despite this, Kyuubei insists that Homura will be alone on Walpurgis Night. The only way this would make any level of sense is if he personally sent out a sort of vacate notice after Mami died, and won't do it this time.

i need go back and check but i think he did sent out a vacant notice. besides unless MG have some way of knowing when another MG dies, it wouldn't be apparent this area doesn't have a MG for a while yet. Also having 3 MG die in the space of less then a month is going to put up red flags all over this area.

Jimmy C

2011-03-09, 22:36

There's also the fact that Kyoko was really close to Mitakihara even before Mami died. That's why she got there by the next evening.
The next magical girl interested in a new territory could be more than a week away,

O.F Death

2011-03-09, 22:54

I had this weird theory that involves Homura idolizing Madoka and wanting to save her from her cruel fate. I'd get into specifics, but it just relies on seeing the dialogue and actions of Homura in a different light (and so it's kind of weak).

Sigurd

2011-03-10, 02:02

Since ep10 is likely going to shed some light on Homura. My take on her:

- She has always been a human. (Yeah, I still consider a MG human, regardless of what Homura might consider herself as. No, I don't believe she's originally an alien or a cat.)
- She has always been "Akemi Homura", that is, she is not Madoka in any shape or form.
- She was an awkward girl. The kind that sticks out like a sore thumb and gets bullied at school... (just kidding, or maybe Mami did nail it).
- Madoka befriended her and they became close in the original time-line.

Well, I could be completely wrong, but I have always believed that we saw a glimpse of the "first time" Homura transfered to Madoka's school in ep1.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-10, 06:55

What exactly would you call your own argument? Saying "Nope. Homura is a good character and her actions are completely justified" is just as much of a logical leap given information we currently have.

You said that Homura's entire justification is "I won't let you become a Magical Girl because I want you to care about ME", but you can only get to that conclusion by dismissing several things we already know about her:

1) Homura stated she will leave the city after walpurgis.

So, how could preventing Madoka from contracting be so that Madoka would care about Homura if she's going away??

2) Homura has stated she already gave up on any girl who has contracted, including herself.

So, how could preventing Madoka from contracting be so that Madoka would care about Homura if she already gave up on herself?

3) Homura doesn't even try to befriend Madoka, and her approach makes her even more distant.

So, how could preventing Madoka from contracting be so that Madoka would care about Homura if she is quite unfriendly with Madoka?

So I think your argument has little basis IMO. All this clearly indicates Homura's reason for preventing Madoka for contracting is wholeheartedly for Madoka's sake, and that Homura doesn't expect anything in return.

Mentar

2011-03-10, 07:30

Since there's still no ep10 predictions thread, and I won't have time to do it later, here's my weather forecast for today: Very murky. Extremely hard to predict.

o Obviously, this will become a Homura-centric episode. Time to explain what the deal is.

o Even though it's been gaining popularity lately, I do NOT believe in the "Archer Theory" in which Homura is any form of Madoka. First reason that it "feels wrong" is that I sense a strong, possibly even romantic love of Homura towards Madoka, and Madoka has a meek and not in the least narcissistic personality. The main reason however:

o There's a foreshadowing that Homura and Madoka _have already met_, and Madoka had forgotten. However, her memory seems to be coming back (see the "static" scene end of ep8). This could possibly be the end climax of ep10, that Madoka finally remembers.

o Until then, I expect a rocky ride in ep10. Homura is the only outlet for Madoka's frustrations remaining, and I wouldn't be surprised if Madoka lashed out at her for not telling her about anything in the past.

o I wouldn't be surprised if QB would prepare the upcoming Walpurgisnacht by applying pressure to Madoka's family. Some more "unfortunate coincidences" would hit the spot. His theme will be "you can prevent the death and destruction - just contract with me".

o Overall, I still believe that there's an important twist missing which will trigger the end run. There aren't all cards on the table yet, because I feel we have too few puzzle pieces yet to solve it. Something unexpected is missing yet.

o We've already been prepared that Madoka is a rulebreaker. We also know that Homura is _desperately_ trying to protect her and keep her from contracting, so I do believe that Madoka's current status of "uncontracted, and happily living with a loving family" might be the result of Homura's wish. So, I think they met BEFORE Homura was a MG. She saw Madoka suffering (the cause grief as much as happiness balance) or maybe even turning into a witch, and wished for the power to prevent this from happening / to wish Madoka out of the MG loop.

Still, almost impossible to really predict something atm. Nothing (save the Archer theory :P) would really surprise me. Not even the long-long-longshot theory that Homura is actually the "turned" QB of Madoka's MG life. ^_^

Kagekyuubi

2011-03-10, 08:11

Must get this speculah out of my head before episode airs tonight cause it'll be too late to do so after the reveal coming this ep:

Homura is Madoka's mother!

Homura...
- was close enough to Madoka to know what she's like. Enough to make her break down when Madoka keeps putting her self at risk. As if she was responsible for Madoka's becoming a magical girl.
- keeps giving advice to her and letting her decide for herself until she has to step in to fix Madoka's messes.
- official art has her guiding Madoka's hand when she's shooting as if she's telling her the right way to shoot.
- Kyuubee thinks it might have met her before but isn't sure. It did but it was a long while back when Madoka's mom was a teen herself.
- People note that Homura could pass for a younger version of Madoka's mom. Official art also has her in an adult-like dress noticeably with make-up on.

Madoka's mom...
- gives advice based on her personal experience. She tells Madoka that adults need to put on a facade with make-up(She's trying her best to be a human being) and that it's easier to make a mistake when you're young(Her becoming a magical girl) so you can recover(She's trying to get over it).

Madoka...
- has enormous potential as a magical girl. Madoka's mom being a magical girl could be the reason why.

Gen Urobuchi...
- is a sadist who loves to mess with our expectations and so far the yuri and magical girls are always young girls elements haven't been screwed over yet. Making Homura really be an alternate timeline's version of her mother is seriously going to enrage MadokaxHomerun shippers and cover the grown up magical girl bit.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-10, 08:26

Well, I want to cover at least all the possible bases (in my opinion). So I think Homura is either Madoka's mom or Madoka's familiar.

In any case, I think Homura's real role in the series is that of a link between future Madoka and present Madoka. Those "memories" in Madoka's head are most likely the key the would explain everything.

novalysis

2011-03-10, 08:38

How's this for speculation: Homura has already fallen into a witch in one of her loops- and returned from the Abyss - in other words , she's a stage 3 Puella Magi!

hyperborealis

2011-03-10, 09:11

The last episode opened up possibilities of hope. Through Sayaka, Kyoko finds herself again, remembers she wanted to become a Magical girl because she loved stories where "courage and love win," and tries to make that story comes true, by teaming up with Madoka and trying to appeal to witch Sayaka. Kyoko doesn't want to give up, wants to try to restore Sayaka, and in the end destroys her own soul gem in a last grand effort to connect somehow to Sayaka.

Considered from Kyoko's point of view, the last episode is centered entirely on hope.

Homura, on the other hand, is much more restrained. She tells Kyoko to drop Sayaka's body, and that they should fight and kill Sayaka instead. Unlike Kyoko, who can consider Madoka becoming a Magical Girl in the last extremity, when she has to fight because she has no other choice, Homura is determined that no matter the circumstances Madoka should never make that sacrifice. In contrast to Kyoko, Homura is a figure of limitations, a kind of restrictive parent, of a person who is unable to see beyond the necessity of reality.

The conflict then in the next episode will be between Madoka and Homura, where Madoka will want to act out of hope, in an effort to save her friends, and Homura will try to prevent her. Madoka will think she has a real shot at doing the impossible, and Homura will try to prevent her. Madoka will not not know how to trust Homura, since Homura will in her eyes be acting to ensure that whatever happened to Sayaka and Kyoko is final, is not reversed. The episode title, "I Won't [Can't] Depend on Anyone Anymore," suggests Madoka will find herself unable to trust Homura, and will be poised to take a Kyoko-style risk on behalf of her friends.

But this is way too conventional. Madoka Magica has been wonderfully, refreshingly unconventional all along, so I can look forward to being wrong.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-10, 10:01

The episode title, "I Won't [Can't] Depend on Anyone Anymore," suggests Madoka will find herself unable to trust Homura, and will be poised to take a Kyoko-style risk on behalf of her friends.

Homura says the title. This is going to be a Homura based episode. IMO She's the one who can't depend on anyone anymore because no one is betting on the future, only her.

BTW, Homura is driven solely on hope. Incubator makes it a point that Madoka contracting is FATE. Yet, Homura is still trying to prevent it anyway. When you're going against FATE, what do you have left if not hope??

hyperborealis

2011-03-10, 11:08

Homura says the title. This is going to be a Homura based episode. IMO She's the one who can't depend on anyone anymore because no one is betting on the future, only her.

Interesting! Odd to think of Homura depending on anyone, since she is a) usually so aloof and b) always seems to step in to save others, to be the one depended on, rather than the reverse.

By the way, how do we know Homura says this? What's the context? Is that significant?

Last episode's title ("That, I Will Not Allow") was also spoken by Homura, I think, at the end, where she's rejecting QB's latest plot to get Madoka to sign up. But that's not what the episode is about. In context, the words better apply to Kyoko, and especially her refusal to give up on Sayaka, don't you think? Writers use words to mean more than one thing, and I wonder if that's not the case here, and not also the case for the upcoming episode. We'll have to wait and see!

BTW, Homura is driven solely on hope. Incubator makes it a point that Madoka contracting is FATE. Yet, Homura is still trying to prevent it anyway. When you're going against FATE, what do you have left if not hope??

This really is true, and makes me think about Homura differently. She is in this respect a lot more like Kyoko than I realized. That comes out in last episode's conclusion, where Kyoko finds her resolution to fight to save Sayaka in Homura's earlier, apparently callous words telling her to drop Sayaka's body: "We can't fight and take care of hindrances at the same time, right? / It's all right. That's the answer. / Just protect the one thing you really want to protect, until the very end." That is what both Kyoko and Homura are doing, acting out of a hope that has no basis, except the necessity of standing by one's friend no matter what.

Still, Kyoko is willing to extend this necessity even to the act of contracting as a Magical Girl, which sets her at odds with Homura, who won't allow Madoka to do so. Homura seems to be bound somehow by her knowledge of the future, which makes her utterly opposed to Madoka taking this step. In that sense, she allows herself to be limited by fate. In this, she is unlike Kyoko, who sees the future as open--remember Kyoko's conversation with Madoka when they plan their attack/appeal to witch Sayaka--it is precisely since she doesn't know what is going to happen, that Kyoko is willing to give their plan a try. So I think Madoka and Homura will come into conflict, where--against Homura's judgment--Madoka will try to overthrow fate.

Perhaps in so doing she will cease to be the person Homura is depending on, and so explain the episode title?

Shall we jump over to the Episode 10 thread, where this conversation really belongs?

Vanish

2011-03-10, 11:15

Homura has so far depended on people not going against her major plan of dragging Madoka into the darkness. She depended on Sayaka in the sense that she took the action instead of Madoka, and Homura also depended on Kyoko for a partner to fight with against Walpurgis Night. Now no one is left anymore, and Madoka doesn't play a big role when it comes to being able to depend on others. Except if Madoka was able to help as a MG somehow but that's the exact thing that isn't supposed to happen.

Btw. the key lines are always said by the respective characters from each episode. Kyoko was the one who said "That I will not allow" in the preview and thus in the coming episode itself.

hyperborealis

2011-03-10, 12:06

Btw. the key lines are always said by the respective characters from each episode. Kyoko was the one who said "That I will not allow" in the preview and thus in the coming episode itself.

You're absolutely right. Thank you for pointing it out to me!

onna-chan

2011-03-10, 14:33

After watching ep 10, I got an idea of a possible ending that would once again be a sacrificial one, perhaps similar to Kannaduki no Miko. What if Homura does get to enlighten Madoka on what has happened and that she contracts with kyube but in turn does the same thing Homura's been doing, with the whole time loop.
Also, it's pretty clear now that Homura's not the cat, but maybe she becomes it? Or the cat was just thrown in to throw us off and is just there to symbolize the whole ultimate powerful witch thing for Madoka

Shadow5YA

2011-03-10, 16:05

Are we sure Madoka isn't getting slightly more powerful with each time loop? She originally lost on the first Walpurgis Night.

Madoka has memories that she should not remember at all. The dream she had in ep1 was obviously Walpurgis Night on a previous time loop. There is no way she could remember an event that hasn't happened yet in her time unless she is drawing from other timelines. Also, Madoka says "Have I met you from somewhere before?" to Homura in ep8.

If Madoka can vaguely recall what happens from the previous time loops, then maybe she can draw power from her other selves as well. Then she could become a Puella Magi without contracting with the current Kyubey and win on Walpurgis without exhausting her magic power and becoming a Witch.

Remember that in a magazine scan, we see both a normal Madoka and a Puella Magi Madoka together. The same goes for the opening sequence. We see a spiritual Madoka embracing the normal Madoka, transforming her into a Puella Magi without any trace of a Soul Gem.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-10, 16:09

Are we sure Madoka isn't getting slightly more powerful with each time loop? She originally lost on the first Walpurgis Night.

If Madoka can vaguely recall what happens from the previous time loops, then maybe she can draw power from her other selves as well. Then she could become a Puella Magi without contracting with the current Kyubey and win on Walpurgis without exhausting her magic power and becoming a Witch.

I agree she seems to be getting more powerful with each timeloop. And I also agree the memories may be the key to get powers without QB.

Let's wait and see.

Hagoshod

2011-03-10, 18:03

Airrider

2011-03-10, 18:05

How interesting.

Almost like looking for free energy *booed* OH WHAT?!

RedWing

2011-03-10, 19:23

Am I the only one who doesn't want a Madoka becomes a MG without contracting cop-out?

Shadow5YA

2011-03-10, 19:35

Am I the only one who doesn't want a Madoka becomes a MG without contracting cop-out?

I'm pretty sure you're in the majority, just because people are expecting a bad end from Urobuchi.

However, I don't think a happy end is a copout when there are small details leading towards a happy end. It wouldn't be coming out of nowhere like Mai-HiMe, despite what some would believe.

Hagoshod

2011-03-10, 19:35

Am I the only one who doesn't want a Madoka becomes a MG without contracting cop-out?
I'm with ya, bra. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3525627#post3525627)

It wouldn't be coming out of nowhere like Mai-HiMe, despite what some would believe.
This criticism only makes sense if you pretend the first 16 episodes of Mai Hime aren't canon. That anime was ALWAYS supposed to have a "hope and teamwork" plot. It was the "dark" portion of the show that completely copped out and came out of nowhere.

Madoka, on the other hand, is a story that was designed as a genuine tragedy from the start. Giving Madoka a Mai Hime-style ending would be the textbook definition of a cop out.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-10, 19:58

I'm with ya, bra. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3525627#post3525627)

This criticism only makes sense if you pretend the first 16 episodes of Mai Hime aren't canon. That anime was ALWAYS supposed to have a "hope and teamwork" plot. It was the "dark" portion of the show that completely copped out and came out of nowhere.

I was talking about the manga and Mai's brother being in perfect health after everything that happened.

Madoka, on the other hand, is a story that was designed as a genuine tragedy from the start. Giving Madoka a Mai Hime-style ending would be the textbook definition of a cop out.

This criticism only makes sense when you ignore the sweet part of the bittersweet moments. The current timeline's Mami died in the best way possible with her ideals intact, as opposed to finding out the truth and freaking out in a way worse than the current Sayaka did. Kyoko went out with a bang with her faith restored, and the chances of her becoming a Witch eliminated. Sayaka at the very least gave Kyosuke a chance to be happy, even if it wasn't with her. Her Witch form, representing her despair, is also being defeated by a Kyoko who believes in helping others just like Sayaka used to.

The current timeline has currently the best possible outcome so for each person, as ep10 shows. Ignoring those improvements is also ignoring important details, which will make any possible good in the ending to seem like a cop-out when it probably won't be.

Vanish

2011-03-10, 20:06

I start to doubt the equation that there will be as much despair as there will be happiness. Or is that all supposed to be the price for being able to wish yourself a cake? Mmm... depends on the flavor. Btw. I think it's pretty clear that Homura meant no harm to even Sayaka.

Hagoshod

2011-03-10, 20:16

I was talking about the manga and Mai's brother being in perfect health after everything that happened.
Oh.

Well, why is that a problem? Manga Takumi was possessed by an ancient demon god for a while. Who's to say his heart condition didn't repair itself as a positive side effect to Obsidian Lord's influence?

This criticism only makes sense when you ignore the sweet part of the bittersweet moments. The current timeline's Mami died in the best way possible with her ideals intact, as opposed to finding out the truth and freaking out in a way worse than the current Sayaka did. Kyoko went out with a bang with her faith restored, and the chances of her becoming a Witch eliminated. Sayaka at the very least gave Kyosuke a chance to be happy, even if it wasn't with her. Her Witch form, representing her despair, is also being defeated by a Kyoko who believes in helping others just like Sayaka used to.

The current timeline has currently the best possible outcome so for each person, as ep10 shows. Ignoring those improvements is also ignoring important details, which will make any possible good in the ending to seem like a cop-out when it probably won't be.
Yes, I'm conscious of this. I'm so conscious of this, I kinda feel like I wrote your post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3525627#post3525627). However, I still fail to see how everyone finding a way to die happily somehow increases the probability of Madoka suddenly being able to pull magical powers out of her butt with no negative consequences.

Btw. I think it's pretty clear that Homura meant no harm to even Sayaka.
Then why does she keep going out of the way to make sure Sayaka is a Magical Girl?

I can't stress this enough. In the original timeline, Sayaka was never an MG. She also doesn't become one during Homura's first trip back. It's only when Homura actively tried messing things up in the third timeline that--BAM--Sayaka is suddenly an MG. In Timeline 4, where Homura tanks every single Witch by herself, Sayaka is once again never an MG.

I'm convinced that, for this timeline, Homura intentionally repeated whatever caused Sayaka to meet Kyubey the first time so Sayaka would turn into a Witch and Madoka would believe her.

Village Idiot

2011-03-10, 21:25

Shadow5YA

2011-03-10, 21:31

Oh.

Well, why is that a problem? Manga Takumi was possessed by an ancient demon god for a while. Who's to say his heart condition didn't repair itself as a positive side effect to Obsidian Lord's influence?

The fact that he was tied to the Obsidian Lord for a long time and somehow had his ties severed with no negative consequences is a bit strange. However, let's drop the Mai-HiMe comparision here, since this obviously isn't working and wrong board to continue talking about the series for very long.

Yes, I'm conscious of this. I'm so conscious of this, I kinda feel like I wrote your post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3525627#post3525627). However, I still fail to see how everyone finding a way to die happily somehow increases the probability of Madoka suddenly being able to pull magical powers out of her butt with no negative consequences.

It's not out of her butt, it's out of a pre-existing power. Take note how Timeline 4's Walpurgis Night fight scene was almost identical to the dream the current Madoka had in ep1.

It's not like I'm suggesting the fallen get revived. Sayaka is dead, Mami is dead, and Kyoko is dead. Homura is already a Puella Magi, so her only option left is to die.

What I'm suggesting is for Madoka to use become a Puella Magi in a way that she will not become a Witch herself, then take it upon herself to destroy the system by getting rid of the remaining Puella Magi/Soul Gems, Witches/Grief Seeds, and possibly Kyubey himself.

Then why does she keep going out of the way to make sure Sayaka is a Magical Girl?

I can't stress this enough. In the original timeline, Sayaka was never an MG. She also doesn't become one during Homura's first trip back. It's only when Homura actively tried messing things up in the third timeline that--BAM--Sayaka is suddenly an MG. In Timeline 4, where Homura tanks every single Witch by herself, Sayaka is once again never an MG.

I'm convinced that, for this timeline, Homura intentionally repeated whatever caused Sayaka to meet Kyubey the first time so Sayaka would turn into a Witch and Madoka would believe her.

I agree with this, but there are also other differences I'd like to note, like why Madoka is getting more powerful each time. Initially, Madoka was killed on Walpurgis Night. Then on the second and third, she barely survives, presumably with Homura's help, then becomes a Witch. In Timeline 4, she singlehandedly defeats the Witch on Walpurgis Night with one strike.

Something is increasing Madoka's potential and raw power. Unlike Homura who explicitly remembers and improves her fighting strategy, Homura should be limited to her own timeline. Why is she getting more powerful with less fighting experience each time, if her power does not have an origin beyond her own timeline?

ThereminVox

2011-03-10, 21:31

One thing I'm wondering about though, is whether or not all the time loops is really Just As Planned by Kyubey.

If you think about it, Madoka turning into a Witch is utterly foolish of Kyubey. Yes, Madoka has an unbelievable amount of magical power, but not only is she the strongest Magical Girl, she's also the strongest Witch thats capable of destroying the world.

Isn't destroying the world the opposite of what Kyubey wants? If theres virtually no one whom could compare to Madoka, she'll virtually exterminate every Magical Girl sent her way, whereas Kyubey wants them to turn into Witches.

This is actually finally answered in episode 10. For the last few weeks, the one seeming failure in Kyubey's plan is how to defeat Madoka and collect her grief seed. However, we learn from the world where she transformed into a witch that the transformation itself was enough to give Kyubey all the power he could ever want out of Earth.

He doesn't need to collect the grief seed, because he's done with the planet, and maybe even moving on to the next. He's not killing the goose that lays the golden eggs so much as he's engaging in slash-and-burn farming, and leaving the world to smolder.

Hagoshod

2011-03-10, 21:53

It's not out of her butt, it's out of a pre-existing power. Take note how Timeline 4's Walpurgis Night fight scene was almost identical to the dream the current Madoka had in ep1.

It's not like I'm suggesting the fallen get revived. Sayaka is dead, Mami is dead, and Kyoko is dead. Homura is already a Puella Magi, so her only option left is to die.

What I'm suggesting is for Madoka to use become a Puella Magi in a way that she will not become a Witch herself, then take it upon herself to destroy the system by getting rid of the remaining Puella Magi/Soul Gems, Witches/Grief Seeds, and possibly Kyubey himself.
Let me point out the logical fallacy here:

It's not out of her butt, it's out of a pre-existing power.What I'm suggesting is for Madoka to use become a Puella Magi in a way that she will not become a Witch herself
This isn't a pre-existing ability. Your "Madoka has her cake and gets to eat it too" theory is hinged on nothing.

Madoka may be becoming a stronger Magical Girl in each timeline (and this in itself is debatable, since other viewers seem to think it's just the nature of Madoka's wish changing each time), but that never improves her survivability. It just means she's doomed to be an even more powerful Witch.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-10, 22:25

Let me point out the logical fallacy here:

This isn't a pre-existing ability. Your "Madoka has her cake and gets to eat it too" theory is hinged on nothing.

It is.

When Homura travels back in time, why are there not two Homuras? If her body travels back in time, then there should be the time-traveling Homura, and the pre-existing Homura from that time. However, there is only one. How can this work?

That means that Homura does not bring her body back wth her, but only her soul and consciousness go back. If Homura can do it, then it's possible for other Puella Magi as well, especially Madoka who is hyped to be the most powerful and capable of "changing the laws of the universe."

Madoka may be becoming a stronger Magical Girl in each timeline (and this in itself is debatable, since other viewers seem to think it's just the nature of Madoka's wish changing each time), but that never improves her survivability. It just means she's doomed to be an even more powerful Witch.

If it was because of the nature of the wish, then Kyubey should not be able to gauge Madoka's potential before she decides on a wish. In the current timeline, Madoka's potential has been hyped by Kyubey since Mami was alive, and the nature of her wish has changed since she has learned the truth about Puella Magi and Witches.

If Madoka is known to be powerful before even she knows exactly what wish she wants to make, then her potential must be independent from her wish and probably predetermined.

Hagoshod

2011-03-10, 23:03

It is.

When Homura travels back in time, why are there not two Homuras? If her body travels back in time, then there should be the time-traveling Homura, and the pre-existing Homura from that time. However, there is only one. How can this work?

That means that Homura does not bring her body back wth her, but only her soul and consciousness go back. If Homura can do it, then it's possible for other Puella Magi as well, especially Madoka who is hyped to be the most powerful and capable of "changing the laws of the universe."
Again, there's an obvious logical problem with this:

Homura wished for this ability and cursed herself into becoming a Witch. This still doesn't set any precedent for Madoka to just randomly gain the same ability without consequence.

If it was because of the nature of the wish, then Kyubey should not be able to gauge Madoka's potential before she decides on a wish. In the current timeline, Madoka's potential has been hyped by Kyubey since Mami was alive, and the nature of her wish has changed since she has learned the truth about Puella Magi and Witches.

If Madoka is known to be powerful before even she knows exactly what wish she wants to make, then her potential must be independent from her wish and probably predetermined.
Isn't possible that Madoka's potential power was always above average to start with, and the nature of her wish just adds to that? Why else would Kyubey start stalking her in any of the previous timelines?

Xellos-_^

2011-03-10, 23:05

Shinndou

2011-03-10, 23:18

Thought I'd keep posting here rather than in EP10's thread since its mostly wild speculation on my side:

have you guys actually thought what is the origin of a girl's power and how is it related to their potential when becoming a MG?

We know that QB is obsessed with Madoka since he can sense this potential within her. How did Madoka end up having such power? Did she possess it since her birth, or was it something that actually developed through the years due to a combination of factors (that could inclue the way her personality shaped up to be until now, her family, etc)?

Is this potential related to a girl's dreams/good will?

The key point about this issue is that if Homura could figure out the source of this power she could somehow find a way to nullify Madoka's potential so that Kyuubee would lose interest in her and won't attempt into tricking her in becoming an MG anymore.

This wouldn't solve the problem regarding the Walpurgis Night, but that's not what Homura seems to care about in first place.

Fandal

2011-03-10, 23:50

There's really only one good way out of this....Repeat Episode 6.

Yes, 6 and that ONE scene nobody expected to happen but is actually reasonable and happened when you think about it. A scene just like that again would cause a big twist. Something like, Houruma taking Madoka back in time by accident or something like that. Something completely unexpected but plausible.

creb

2011-03-11, 00:05

What I'm suggesting is for Madoka to use become a Puella Magi in a way that she will not become a Witch herself, then take it upon herself to destroy the system by getting rid of the remaining Puella Magi/Soul Gems, Witches/Grief Seeds, and possibly Kyubey himself.

The thing is we're thinking at far too small a scale here. This is just one little "emotional energy farm" in a very, very, very, very, very, very...well, a very large universe. As we see in episode 10, QB doesn't sweat it at all when it seems Earth is going to be destroyed. He's made his quota and is probably going to move on to another planet of sentient beings to harvest, and he's already made it known in episode 9 that he's simply one of many agents out there in the universe culling magical girls (where is all the alien magical girl fanart from episode 9 :p ).

In the face of that type of scale, I have a hard time seeing Madoka defeating the entire system. This isn't some unique thing to just humans, but possibly something going on to billions of lifeforms across the very vast universe.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-11, 00:12

In the face of that type of scale, I have a hard time seeing Madoka defeating the entire system. This isn't some unique thing to just humans, but possibly something going on to billions of lifeforms across the very vast universe.

That's the great thing about this series.

Even in the end when they show everything, reveal all the secrets, you cannot see the exit.

The audience, like Homura is trapped in the maze because they have been made to care about some aspect of the show, whether it is liking/pitying Mami/Kyoko/Sayaka/Homura/Madoka or disliking Kyubei.

The audience is made to hope there is something rather than despair at the end. Very nicely done by all involved

Shadow5YA

2011-03-11, 00:34

The thing is we're thinking at far too small a scale here. This is just one little "emotional energy farm" in a very, very, very, very, very, very...well, a very large universe. As we see in episode 10, QB doesn't sweat it at all when it seems Earth is going to be destroyed. He's made his quota and is probably going to move on to another planet of sentient beings to harvest, and he's already made it known in episode 9 that he's simply one of many agents out there in the universe culling magical girls (where is all the alien magical girl fanart from episode 9 :p ).

In the face of that type of scale, I have a hard time seeing Madoka defeating the entire system. This isn't some unique thing to just humans, but possibly something going on to billions of lifeforms across the very vast universe.

I doubt Madoka or Homura care about that grand of a scope. They lost the idealism they had for helping others as Puella Magi when they found out the truth. Homura just wants to get Madoka out, and Madoka just wants to get all of her friends out of the system.

Triker

2011-03-11, 00:36

I knew that someone mentioned that the ending is a homura point of view. But after i watched episode 10 and read the ending translation again, I feel that the ending might foreshadowing the ending of the series. I'm not sure if someone already speculate about this or not, but i'll post it anyway.

Translation from madoka wiki

Someday the light of love you lit within your eyes
will transcend time
and certainly destroy one
of the dreams of a world racing towards destruction.

This part could means that Madoka will remember, as she started to, her life with Homura in every timelines. And probably have a way to break free from this loop and stop Walpurgis Night, if she regained her memory.

Now that you've drunk every ounce of your hesitation
What do you desire?
Will there be a fleeting tomorrow
for the course of this greedy admiration?

This basically says that when she remembered all the timeline, she will have a determination to do something. (change from currently hesitating self to confidence self - similar to madoka in timeline 1) After this, I assumed that Madoka will wish for other ending, differ from the ending in other timelines.

Like the ancient magic
I saw in my dreams when I was young
I want to see you,
smiling with the power to destroy even the dark
The courage from the flower that was plucked
lays in my frightened hands.
Only my feelings are all that I rely on
My wish
will awaken the light.

Not sure about this part. But I think that Madoka's wish will be the key to save Homura from the endless loop and maybe end the mg/witches system. However, Madoka must remember all her previous memories before making this wish. Else, everything will be endless loop for Homura again.

Since episode 10 confirmed that OP is about Homura, so ED might be about Madoka :)

creb

2011-03-11, 00:46

I doubt Madoka or Homura care about that grand of a scope. They lost the idealism they had for helping others as Puella Magi when they found out the truth. Homura just wants to get Madoka out, and Madoka just wants to get all of her friends out of the system.

That was my point? I was simply quoting your post saying she was going to destroy the system. I'm going to assume you didn't mean it since it seems we both agree that it's not something she/they care about, or can achieve.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-11, 00:51

Throwing more speculation into the fray. Homura did not destroy Madoka's soul gem/grief seed on round 3. She took it along. It will become Madoka's exit strategy

creb

2011-03-11, 01:12

Throwing more speculation into the fray. Homura did not destroy Madoka's soul gem/grief seed on round 3. She took it along. It will become Madoka's exit strategy

While a neat idea, I'm pretty sure she shot that soul gem at the end of that time line, since if she hadn't, witch Madoka would have materialized right then and there.

Though, it's hard to tell what was going on. Homura was clearly aiming her gun straight in front of her when she shot it. Considering Madoka was lying on the ground....:confused: So, maybe you're onto something? :p

Edit: Still, the soul gem looked like it was going to go witch any second, so I still have a hard time believing Homura would be able to find herself a grief seed fast enough once time reset to use it on Madoka's soul gem. Not to mention, the first thing she does is go change her hairstyle. I think if she had Madoka's almost-witch soul gem in her possession, changing her hairstyle would not be at the top of her things to do when climbing out of bed.

Xion Valkyrie

2011-03-11, 01:17

While a neat idea, I'm pretty sure she shot that soul gem at the end of that time line, since if she hadn't, witch Madoka would have materialized right then and there.

Though, it's hard to tell what was going on. Homura was clearly aiming her gun straight in front of her when she shot it. Considering Madoka was lying on the ground....:confused:

Although it could be the ending for the series though. Someone else suggested this in the ep 10 thread, that Madoka would contract but give Homura her soul gem, and have her bring it to Madoka+1 in the next timeline.

They could either end the series there, leaving it on a big cliffhanger (Dark Tower LOL), or they could have Madoka+1 use the soul gem and defeat Walpugis, then have Homura destroy the soul gem before it can become a witch.

However, that still leaves the fact that the MG system is still in place, and that Homura will turn into a witch eventually.

Edit: Another possibility is that Madoka and Homura go back in time together, destroy the Magic Girl system completely by using what Kyoko did in ep 9, destroying all remnants of the MG system, and letting the new timeline's Madoka/Homura/Mami/Kyoko/Sayaka live normal lives.

Hagoshod

2011-03-11, 02:17

The key point about this issue is that if Homura could figure out the source of this power she could somehow find a way to nullify Madoka's potential so that Kyuubee would lose interest in her and won't attempt into tricking her in becoming an MG anymore.

This wouldn't solve the problem regarding the Walpurgis Night, but that's not what Homura seems to care about in first place.
I think Walpurgis Night is the entire point. Madoka's desire to be Superman and protect everyone is her motivation. As long as Walpurgis Night happens, she'll make a contract with Kyubey.

Of course, now that she has knowledge for the first time that Kyubey is undoubtedly a lying sack of crap and she'll become an even bigger threat herself before she becomes a Magical Girl, Homura may have shown her enough to completely discourage her from making the contract.

Edit: Another possibility is that Madoka and Homura go back in time together, destroy the Magic Girl system completely by using what Kyoko did in ep 9, destroying all remnants of the MG system, and letting the new timeline's Madoka/Homura/Mami/Kyoko/Sayaka live normal lives.
If Homura dies, how does another reset happen?

Xion Valkyrie

2011-03-11, 02:24

If Homura dies, how does another reset happen?

I meant for 1 more reset to happen, except this time Madoka goes back with Homura, and they go waaay back.

However, I just realized that they wouldn't exist separately from their own selves, so there wouldn't be another Madoka/Homura in that new timeline. They also would not be able to go back further than their own lives.

Which I guess means the bring Madoka's soul gem back with her theory is more plausible, or a suicide end like Kyoko's to defeat Walpurgis Night.

Edit: Just realized that in the previous end, QB leaves Earth after meeting his quota. So I guess another plausible ending is for Madoka to willingly turn into a witch and then have Homura use her sacrifice skill to have a double suicide. QB leaves Earth with his quota met, the magical system is abolished, and only their city is destroyed. However, Homura was able to die together with Madoka (Homura was willing to accept mutual witch-ness), and Madoka is able to protect the future (maybe even her family).

Jimmy C

2011-03-11, 02:25

Ep10 was the first time I've seen a speculation of mine for a show come to pass. So, is this what it feels like for you guys?

1. Madoka contracts, becomes a magical girl and defeats Walpurgisnacht.
2. Madoka asks Homura to destroy her Soul Gem before she turns into a witch.
3. Homura does so.
4. Before jumping to the next timeline, Homura tell herself, "Next time, I'll succeed."

Only loose end is what effect will Madoka's wish have on the world.

But I didn't expect them to have already used this for a previous timeloop! It is possible that Madoka's wish in loop 4, the Prolog, will allow her to cheat the system. But we can't bet on that yet.
So, given that each loop shown had a different outcome, new predictions:

A: Homura uses the exploding Soul Gem attack to defeat Walpurgis.
Kneeling over her body, Madoka wishes she could redo their time together and save her. That'll perfect for those who love cycles.
B: Homura is unable to defeat Walpurgis by herself. Rather than wishing for the power to do so now, Madoka wishes to reset time to do so. Then we end with both Madoka and Homura repeating history for ever.

panzerfan

2011-03-11, 05:14

I think that I won't be the only person in suggesting that Kyuubee may wish for the survival of humanity, and Homura may be the key in allowing that to happen. After all, should humanity survive, it would serve the purpose of the Incubator race as additional source of emotional energy can be tapped after the current harvested amount is totally consumed. It makes me wonder...

Sekirei07

2011-03-11, 08:43

I think maybe QB gave Madoka the key to ending the loop this time "unintentionally" and the hint is also in the opening credits.

QB stats that he needs girls who are "In there second stage of growth" because they have the greatest potential.

What if Madoka makes a delayed wish like: I wish that I become an adult after WPN is defeated.

If she does that her potential to be the most powerful witch would be voided and possibly her ability to be a MG altogether.

Her older self in the opening credits has to have some relevant point to her wish otherwise it wouldn't be there.

crazyguy013

2011-03-11, 08:51

possibly Madoka would wish for Homura to have her time traveling abilities removed so as to end her "endless loop" if she does hear about what she has been doing for the past few timelines. perhaps she'd just resign to fate and the series ends with Homura not being about to reset any timeline? O_O

erneiz_hyde

2011-03-11, 08:53

Shadow5YA

2011-03-11, 10:13

Edit: Just realized that in the previous end, QB leaves Earth after meeting his quota. So I guess another plausible ending is for Madoka to willingly turn into a witch and then have Homura use her sacrifice skill to have a double suicide. QB leaves Earth with his quota met, the magical system is abolished, and only their city is destroyed. However, Homura was able to die together with Madoka (Homura was willing to accept mutual witch-ness), and Madoka is able to protect the future (maybe even her family).

That's not a plausible ending, because

1. Homura will never accept such an ending as victory terms. Madoka will never want to become a witch because of what it represents, and Homura promised Madoka in timeline 3 that she would save her.

2. Sacrificing herself does not guarantee that Homura will be able to stop Madoka, who is even more powerful than Walpurgis Night.

Homura's only choice is to stop Walpurgis Night on her own, possibly sacrificing her Soul Gem like Kyoko did. If that does not work, then Homura is gone, and Madoka will make a contract with Kyubey anyway. The only two ways for Homura to succeed is to somehow stop Walpurgis Night on her own when she couldn't stand a chance before, or for the current Madoka to become a Puella Magi without Kyubey's contract. If not, then Homura fails.

Sekirei07

2011-03-11, 10:23

Ultimately though, the only absolute way for Homura to succeed is for QB to be completely 100% obliterated.

As long as QB remains, the option for Madoka to be a MG exists.

PzIVf3

2011-03-11, 12:13

Homura should explain to Madoka the truth of her tragic past thats the only solution of way to avoid total annihilation.

Vanish

2011-03-11, 12:22

The complexer the story gets, the less people will believe Homura anything if she was to start blabbering things without any signs of evidence. Madoka might actually remember herself though so that'd be pretty positive at least.

DJLowrider

2011-03-11, 12:34

Homura should explain to Madoka the truth of her tragic past thats the only solution of way to avoid total annihilation.

Yes. Let's explain it all to an already heavily guilt-tripping, sorrowful young girl who is:

1) grieving over having lost both her best friend and her would-be MG mentor

2) being pressured at every turn by an alien life form who wants her to die in order to preserve the universe

3) already freaked out beyond description by the full truth about MGs and Witches and has seen the aforementioned dead best friend meet such an end

On top of all that, let's tell her that the only one left protecting her has been putting herself through what is basically Hell on Earth over and over again in an attempt to both save her and stop her from destroying the world. Yeah, let's let her know Homura's been wading neck-deep through a river of shit because of her.

Adding that guilt trip on Madoka in addition to all the other crap she's dealt with so far would probably ensure that the moment she contracted with QB she'd turn straight into a Witch anyway.

Sekirei07

2011-03-11, 13:00

The problem also has to do with WPN, all of Madoka's friends and family will die if its not stopped.

But in highlight of ep 10. Can't normal people fight Witches? I mean man made weapons work on them so why not use them? I doubt WPN could survive an air strike on it.

Jimmy C

2011-03-11, 13:06

But WPN can toss buildings at the airstrike. You'd need at least MOAB or even nuke level firepower to take it out from a distance. Problem is A) Japan SDF doesn't have those. B) It'll destroy what's left Mitakihara completely.

DJLowrider

2011-03-11, 13:09

Even if we assume conventional weapons would work on WN like they do on other Witches, the problems of detection and infiltration still exist. MGs are the only ones that can recognize Witch influence, find where they're hiding and get into their pocket dimensions.

Furthermore, the concept of some kind of alliance between MGs and a military force of some kind just wouldn't float. That would entail the public exposure of the existence of MGs and Witches and probably the whole system surrounding them as well. It'd be a recipe for a whole new take on the Salem Witch Trials.

Edit: Hmm...I think I just gave myself a delicious fanfiction concept there.

Shadow5YA

2011-03-11, 13:28

Kazu-kun

2011-03-11, 13:36

Since when did conventional weapons work? Even if Homura used a gun, a grenade, and a machine gun, she still used her magic for the bullets and explosives. There is nothing to guarantee that non-magic ammunition will work.

No, she took ammo from the Yakuza building too, so she use non-magical ammunition.

That aside, she does have a magical purple beam though, as seen in the last scene.

Vanish

2011-03-11, 13:48

No, she took ammo from the Yakuza building too, so she use non-magical ammunition.

Homura fought against WPN with Madoka and got her SG tainted. Through what? If her weapons are normal, then she won't need to use magic. And you say the stolen guns aren't magical even though she can keep pulling them out of her shield? There's no evidence that it works like an implementation and magical adjust to the stolen stuff but you can't dismiss the possibility that the shield isn't the only magical thing about her either.

You could argue that what made her use up magic was only the fact that she had to heal (which she doesn't need if she manages to dodge everything) and use time freeze but I can't imagine her attacks are non-magical.

Kazu-kun

2011-03-11, 13:54

You could argue that what made her use up magic was only the fact that she had to heal and use time freeze but I can't imagine her attacks are non-magical.
Then let's agree to disagree. I'm no going to jump into conclusion about her weapons right now so for now I'll take what I see.

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-11, 13:56

Sekirei07

2011-03-11, 14:12

Homura fought against WPN with Madoka and got her SG tainted. Through what? If her weapons are normal, then she won't need to use magic. And you say the stolen guns aren't magical even though she can keep pulling them out of her shield? There's no evidence that it works like an implementation and magical adjust to the stolen stuff but you can't dismiss the possibility that the shield isn't the only magical thing about her either.

You could argue that what made her use up magic was only the fact that she had to heal (which she doesn't need if she manages to dodge everything) and use time freeze but I can't imagine her attacks are non-magical.

She uses her magic to basically make "Bullet Time" to fire her weapons. When she first started out Mami made the point that her magic has potential but time magic in itself has very little "offensive" capabilities when you don't have a weapon. Thus sparks the idea to use weapons like guns/swords/bombs.

Homura had to steal/made all of her offensive weapons that are created in the real world. She made her bombs using online information, stole weapons and ammo from Yakuza, and keeps them stored in her pocket like dimension inside her clock shield.

The other girls could produce there weapons with seemingly limitless numbers out of thin air and the weapon itself was always a certain type. Homura's are all different.

Vanish

2011-03-11, 15:22

I rewatched the episode and have to change my tone a bit. It makes sense that they're (for the most part) conventional weapons since she also stole ammo and she went to more weapon stores at a later point where she probably upgrades and restocks. Come to think of it, that article which mentioned that Homura actually is weak makes sense now. Still open to my former assumption though.

Jimmy C

2011-03-11, 21:55

New speculation: Assuming Madoka finally finds out Homura's wish. She then wishes that Homura never made her wish.
Though tragic, resetting things back to the original timeline means that WN is defeated without Madoka becoming a witch.

PzIVf3

2011-03-11, 22:00

So Homura cant win alone without Madoka but somehow all of those old scroll about WPN at Homura room might have discovered how to defeat it. I wonder where she get that?

NaweG

2011-03-11, 22:17

SO we have the answers to a lot of things, but I still see a BIG question mark around "who is the older Madoka-looking woman" in the OP? I have to think that's significant in some sense. Since we now know Homura does not equal Madoka, then... ?

MeoTwister5

2011-03-11, 22:37

taofd

2011-03-11, 22:52

I just realized something. It's been presumed that these are different timelines and universes ala Multiple World Interpretation, with Homura jumping between worlds that are distinct and essentially independent of each other. What if this wasn't the case?

What if Madoka, and even everyone else for that matter, are also transposed like Homura is to a specific reset, except Homura's power allows her to retain her memories while everyone else gets returned to their initial blank slate? MWI, but considering how Homura seems to get her self overlapped with the Homura of the new timeline (think sould-wise), her power gets everyone else from her original timeline transposed and overlapped with their respective selves in the new universes.

The stress of resets may explain why Madoka seems to be remembering previous events, if this theory of physics holds true, which makes it a bit more believable than what Ryukishi tried to do for Higurashi's final arcs. The disconnect with the strict universe-jumping issue is that while they are physically the same, they aren't identical. The Madoka that Homura wanted to save in her timeline, the Madoka that was her one and only friend and savior isn't the same as the Madokas of every timeline. By transposing their souls as well, you solve this emotional disconnect, and give Homura a bigger incentive for her actions.

I'm going to need panzer's input on this one.

Perhaps the only piece you need is that a soul is a persistent entity through space time? If a soul persists throughout all continuities, then naturally there will be "leakage" between all contingencies.

SO we have the answers to a lot of things, but I still see a BIG question mark around "who is the older Madoka-looking woman" in the OP? I have to think that's significant in some sense. Since we now know Homura does not equal Madoka, then... ?

My theory is that it's the wish the timeline 3 Madoka made (Go back in time and prevent me from being tricked by QB). If you guys remember there were some strange sound effects played, etc when she said those words...

Keep in mind that there may be many more timelines that we don't know about. They may have just shown the major 5 (or 5 chosen for their natural progression).

What wish(es) did Madoka's make in the alternate timeline? If any of them were made about Homura, then...

PzIVf3

2011-03-12, 00:24

Its sound im thinking like from the movie called "The One" by Jet Lee

Deconstructor

2011-03-12, 01:03

novalysis

2011-03-12, 02:16

Perhaps Kyubey's race might be harvesting Entropy Defying Grief Seeds from various time-lines ? That might explain why the lost of one Timeline of humans is no real great deal to them. There are infinite . Let's go one step further . Perhaps Kyubey's race is trying to harvest the Energies of the process of time-lines splitting apart to form new Time-lines . Human emotions are the manifestation of the energies involved in splitting time-lines , and hence a method of harnessing the power of the Many World theories.

And the point about Six dimensions - Theoretical Physicist predicts 11 , if I recall correctly . It's just that the other dimensions are too tiny to detect - in the same way that a piece of paper actually exist in three dimensions , rather than two . It's just that the third dimension is really , really small. But they can be mathematically represented. And I'm digressing .

I also have an insane theory that Gen Urobachi will pay homage to Anno's ending for Neo Genesis Evangelion - in Gurren Laagn proportions.

Malkuth

2011-03-12, 04:41

I think I need a quick review of quantum physics before I even begin to discuss this.

The fourth dimension is time. Time appears linear to us; we only experience one timeline. However, there exist many other possibilities in the fifth dimension that could potentially be the one we experience, if we were able to go back to a point in time and redo our actions. This is exactly what Homura is doing: going back to a point in time and taking a different path in the fifth dimension.

There is a faster and more efficient way to change history. That is to travel through the sixth dimension directly to the outcome! Imagine there is a timeline where Madoka does not contract with Kyubey. Instead of going back into time and guessing what events would result in that timeline, Homura should travel to a different timeline altogether. Of course, she does not have that power... she only has the ability to travel backward.

To give a spatial analogy, draw two parallel lines of equal length next to each other. Say you travel from the bottom of the left line to the top. But for some reason, you want to get to the top of the right line. You can go back to the bottom of the left line, or go back in time. Then, draw a (slanted) line from the bottom of the left line to the top of the right line. That is redoing the events of history, as Homura is. Or, you can simply draw a line connecting the tops of the lines - that is travelling through the sixth dimension.

I am guessing is that Kyubey has the power to travel through the sixth dimension. Why? Kyubey says he has a lot of bodies - many people guess that Kyubey's real body exists elsewhere. However, since we have never seen it, I will assume the opposite. I assume that those little white ferrets Homura is killing is actually Kyubey.

Well, one of Kyubey, anyway. There exist an infinite number of Kyubeys in an infinite number of quantum timelines - if all of those Kyubeys have the power to move freely to another timeline, then it would explain why killing one Kyubey is pointless. Another one from a different history would simply take its place.

And no, this is not serious. This was just an excuse to talk about physics stuff. There are so many problems with even considering this.

What you are saying makes no sense... relativity and quantum physics (experimentally confirmed parts), operate in four dimensions (3D space + time)*.

There are some theories (yet to be confirmed, but popular) that require solutions in 11 dimensions, BUT!!! the additional dimensions are SPACIAL, not TEMPORAL!

And the point about Six dimensions - Theoretical Physicist predicts 11 , if I recall correctly . It's just that the other dimensions are too tiny to detect - in the same way that a piece of paper actually exist in three dimensions , rather than two . It's just that the third dimension is really , really small. But they can be mathematically represented. And I'm digressing .

EDIT: the 11 dimensions, are required by some (not all) string theories to solve the state equations of relativity, and their objective is to bridge the inconsistencies between relativity and quantum mechanics. As I said though, however popular, these theories are not proven, hardly even make any predictions to be tested, and at their current state should not be treated with more credibility than any religion... they popular though sound nice and fuzzy :p

On the other hand, this turns to be a sci-fi show, anything goes... unfortunately with pseudo-scientific explainations :rolleyes:

* kind of, I am trying to simplify, it's rather much more complicated than that, and I am not a physics major, just amateurishly interested in astronomy ;)

novalysis

2011-03-12, 05:04

Speaking of which , and given all the comparisons that are made between Madoka and Shinji Ikarii , I have this crack theory floating around in my head that a Witch Madoka , after sufficient time loops would pull of instrumentality - of Gurren Laagan Esque proportions. In other words , a Witch Madoka may eventually end up becoming so powerful that she consumes all Souls, and all of reality , not only on Earth , but all throughout the ENTIRE Universe.

Given that some have pointed out that Madoka seems to be becoming powerful with every reset button Homura presses , it might be only a matter of time before , if Homura fails once last time , the Universe itself , and not only Earth , is doomed.

I got this bizzare image of Madoka pulling off a Rei Ayanami and hugging - and tanging every sentient being in the Universe with Homura's last failure. Then she promptly reconstructs a Saccharine , diabetes inducing reality.

Strangely , my train of thought ends with Homura crying ontop of a Madoka waking up on a Beach , surrounded by an ocean of Pink/Orange Liquid.

Myssa Rei

2011-03-12, 09:03

Strangely , my train of thought ends with Homura crying ontop of a Madoka waking up on a Beach , surrounded by an ocean of Pink/Orange Liquid.

*coughs*

The End of Madoka Magica (http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16901147)

SagaraSouske

2011-03-12, 09:05

It was never revealed in Time Line 4 what Madoka wished for. It is possible she wished something in the same vein as Homura albeit somewhat different. Tying that together with her dream in ep1, that's prob a hint of how they can break out using the system's loophole - wishes.

scr

2011-03-12, 09:20

Keep in mind that there may be many more timelines that we don't know about. They may have just shown the major 5 (or 5 chosen for their natural progression).

Like in that one timeline where after Homura told Madoka to not contract, she raped Madoka so that Madoka will hate her and thus won't come to save her when she fights the Wallpaper Night? :cool:

taofd

2011-03-12, 10:35

Like in that one timeline where after Homura told Madoka to not contract, she raped Madoka so that Madoka will hate her and thus won't come to save her when she fights the Wallpaper Night? :cool:

Wait .... Mai Hime... no ... what? I'm so confused :confused:

Also, completely unrelated but probably useful for fueling speculations...

http://i56.tinypic.com/in485g.png

Kinematics

2011-03-12, 10:50

Will make a copy of this here just so it's in the proper thread rather than being lost in the ep threads, and I can think about it more later.

~

Far-flung crazy-ass theory.

Homura needs a third option, as has been said multiple times. One thing constantly ignored (perhaps rightly so; I need to rewatch a few times to be sure) is Sayaka. It's ye old Chekov gun sitting there.

No, Kyouko didn't manage to save Sayaka, to bring her back from being a witch. On the other hand, she did do something completely outside the bounds of expectations, and different from previous timelines: she destroyed her own soul gem to be with Sayaka. The question is exactly what that entails.

The basic assumption is that Kyouko killed Sayaka, and likely died along with her (which could be the case, but that cuts off my theory at the roots, so ignoring for now). However, I don't believe any grief seed appeared after the event, so Sayaka should still exist. If she's not considered an active threat that an MG would expect to fight (sort of implied by the idea that that subplot is 'resolved'), then she must be 'contained' or 'suppressed' in some way.

A lot of the imagery around that point sort of gives a soft nod towards a merging of souls. Kyouko's soul gem shattered, but where did her soul go? Is it now bound to Sayaka's grief seed?

So the first CAT thought was that, even if Kyouko couldn't save Sayaka, conceivably Homura could save the Sayaka-Kyouko hybrid, or at least bring it around as an ally in the fight against Walpurgisnacht.

But then another thought hit me, from the other crazy theory going around that the Walpurgisnacht witch was actually Homura (since it can't be Sayaka anymore). And it occurred to me that there's another point being ignored: the meaning of "Walpurgisnacht" -- a gathering of witches. Plural.

What if the Walpurgisnacht witch *is* a gathering of witches, and not just a single mighty enemy? That is, a merged form of several witches, or perhaps even magical girls (Kyouko)?

Now consider, who can Kyubei not get energy from? Those who don't make contracts with him, those whose soul gem is broken, and those who are already witches.

He also keeps the used grief seeds so that they don't 'revive'. Homura also appears to have a fairly large collection of grief seeds that she's not handing over to Kyubei..

So, building blocks:
Walpurgisnacht shows vague similarities to Sayaka and Homura (and perhaps Kyouko with the fire attack)
Walpurgisnacht seems to 'appear' at different points in time (allusion to Homura's time-jumping?)
Walpurgisnacht can't generate energy for Kyubei et al
Walpurgisnacht does have a tremendous amount of power

End game:
Homura uses magic relentlessly and constantly uses grief seeds until the witches are ready to revive. (not strictly necessary, but would be nice to 'save' the other witches)
She puts those grief seeds with Sayaka/Kyouko to allow them to merge and grow.
After using them up, Homura returns to that lair and bonds her own soul to the great gathering.
Walpurgisnacht is born, but with limited control (too many drivers, one steering wheel). Time jumping ensues until they can return to the proper place/time they need to be to meet Madoka.
Madoka is left alone, but given her final wish: "I want to be together with my friends forever."
Homura's wish to be strong enough to protect Madoka is fulfilled.

Earth now has a defender of unimaginable strength able to fend off any further Kyubei intrusions, while also bypassing the problem of them getting Madoka's energy. Assuming they don't destroy the Earth themselves.

In other words, a path that could break the system, which is what is actually needed to reach a true 'good' end.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-12, 11:00

people watch too much EVA and Kannazuki no Miko or Mai-Hime..LOL

but they're not farfetched to not consider them likely to happen. hmm..but i'm sensing a somewhat eva end.XD the new adam(?) and eve..XDD

FlavorOfLife

2011-03-12, 15:01

Guessing Madoka is the only survivor at the end
As Sayaka sas, when you save one, you kill one. Everything is always balanced.

Each time iteration shows 3 fixed things
i) Mami always dies
ii) Madoka always dies
iii) Homura always lives

For Madoka to live, Homura must take her place. We may end up with the first time loop but with Homura without her soulgem, lying on the floor and a crying Madoka.

At this point Kyubei's offer might be refused but i'm thinking Madoka will accept it. This time her mission is to save everyone and she loops back into time. Cue the title and its true significance (that is, it is Madoka's story from then on)

Lord of Fire

2011-03-12, 16:16

I agree with FlavorOfLife: Homura will be our next, and final fatality, though my reasoning is different.

We know that Homura needs to defeat both Walpurgis Night and prevent Madoka from becoming a Magical Girl, and she has to do it alone. If she fails in any may, it's mission fail and rewind.

I think Homura will find a way to achieve her goal, possibly by analyzing what she did wrong in previous timelines and adjusting her strategies accordingly. However, assuming her powers aren't nullified because of her reaching her goal, this means that Madoka will most likely be forced to kill her, as Homura could still become a Witch in the long run, since she's still a Magical Girl.

The only variable left in the equation is the chess master, Kyuubey. Homura may have won his twisted little game if she succeeds, but I wonder if he's willing to accept defeat once he realizes that his plan has failed. If not, Madoka needs to find a way to dispose of him forever without contracting with him.

Key Board

2011-03-12, 16:38

I posted 3 predictions on my visitor's message profile last month. One of of my predictions might come true it seems

1)Madoka will become a magical girl the same way Hei from Darker Than Black became a contractor. She will SPOILER it from SPOILER and thus remove her from the burdens of the contract.

2) Madoka has so much potential because she has been through several time loops with herself as the focal point of the time space anomaly. Each loops dumps the residue power of the previous Madoka into the new timeline Madoka. For another parallel of this also see Yuuji from Shakugan no Shana and his Midnight Stray relic <-- this one

3) The black cat we see in the opening is Homura who has lost her human body. She has turned this way because she has forfeited most of her power to Madoka. See point 1)

Xellos-_^

2011-03-12, 18:26

The only variable left in the equation is the chess master, Kyuubey. Homura may have won his twisted little game if she succeeds, but I wonder if he's willing to accept defeat once he realizes that his plan has failed. If not, Madoka needs to find a way to dispose of him forever without contracting with him.

remember for QB just because he lost the current battle doesn't mean he lost the war. As long as he can get Homura out of the way and isolate Madoka at the same time. He will always have future chance to tempt Madoka with a miracle.

Solace

2011-03-12, 19:28

Something has been bothering me since episode 8, and unfortunately episode 10 does not help clear this up. I'm wondering about this image on the wall of Homura's house:

http://forums.animesuki.com/picture.php?albumid=3202&pictureid=37725

These are clearly humanoid and appear to be girls. However they do not look like any of the girls we've seen before. In addition, they're listed with the other information Homura has on Walpurgisnacht.

1. Are they pictures of what the MG's looked like as humans instead of Witches? There is another image that supports this idea:

http://forums.animesuki.com/picture.php?albumid=3202&pictureid=37726

This is displayed on the computer screen in the Witch's Lair of episode 4, Elly. However, the question becomes "How did Homura get/find this information for each of these girls/witches?" Also, if they are Witches, why are they pictured as MG's, and not their Witch form? What is the relevance?

We do have some other interesting observations about Witches:

At least some Witches can talk, at least to their victims (Elly and Isadel).
Some Witches have memories of their human life (Sayaka), and we've seen another (Elly) display memories of human life on her computer screens (we saw Mami in one of them).
Magical Girl power/appearance is based on their wish. Witches appear to share this reflection, but it is twisted. For example Sayaka's appearance is a mixture of a Knight/Mermaid (see Little Mermaid or Melusine for reference), and her lair is a reflection of her love turned curse (Kamijou and by extension, music...in particular, her memory of seeing Kamijou perform as a child).

There's also a few things we don't know about the MG/Witch system. For example, in episode 9, Kyubey states that he "discovered" the MG system. He appears to play no part in it except for (possibly) creating the Soul Gem and harvesting the energy released from the Gem as it turns into a Grief Seed. It is implied the wish is created from the girls power and not his own. He also admits in different episodes that the power of MG's is capable of doing impossible things.

So leading back to the image in Homura's house, I'm still perplexed. It is possible that the image is a red herring, but I find it odd that such a detail, in a show that is very meticulous about detail, would put such a thing there for no reason. Of course this could be like the cat in the OP, which we still haven't seen yet and maybe never will.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-03-12, 19:41

what if madoka's doing a timeloop herself? LOL. and her wish has something to do with saving homura since the latter died in a madoka-centered timeline? this might say that their wishes will never meet and homura-centered timelines will never end..homura will always fail no matter what.

applejuice

2011-03-12, 19:48

This is small possibility, but there is possibility that Homura isn't time-travelling at all... It might be just entire world changing, which is one of few ways to explain why Madoka had feeling of meeting Homura before.

Vanish

2011-03-12, 19:52

Kyubei confirmed her to have time manipulation and we know she uses time freeze. But yeah, I guess there's a small possibility that it's not entirely related to time because time is also connected to space. Then again, it might be Madoka herself that is the oddity here.

Zippicus

2011-03-12, 20:21

At least some Witches can talk, at least to their victims (Elly and Isadel).
Some Witches have memories of their human life (Sayaka), and we've seen another (Elly) display memories of human life on her computer screens (we saw Mami in one of them).
Magical Girl power/appearance is based on their wish. Witches appear to share this reflection, but it is twisted. For example Sayaka's appearance is a mixture of a Knight/Mermaid (see Little Mermaid or Melusine for reference), and her lair is a reflection of her love turned curse (Kamijou and by extension, music...in particular, her memory of seeing Kamijou perform as a child).

I could be wrong about this, but the witch that displayed Mami on her screen seemed to be doing that to torment Madoka. Madoka even said something to the extent of "this must be my punishment for being so weak". It's highly unlikely that the witch would have any memories of a private scene between Madoka and Mami, so I assumed it was pulled from Madoka's memory/subconscious.

Hagoshod

2011-03-12, 20:26

I just realized something.

Regular girls become Magical Girls, and Magical Girls "grow up" into Witches, right?

And Madoka's dying wish to Homura is to never have to become a Witch, right?

Holy crap. The entire story is a feminist deconstruction of Peter Pan. The characters are the Lost Girls by multiple definitions. It's a coming-of-age story about a group of little girls who are afraid of growing up, losing their idealism, and becoming something bad (compare Madoka's witches to Peter Pan's pirates plz). They're lost causes because, once you're a Magical Girl, the only way out is death.

Why the hell didn't I notice this before?

Solace

2011-03-12, 21:00

I could be wrong about this, but the witch that displayed Mami on her screen seemed to be doing that to torment Madoka. Madoka even said something to the extent of "this must be my punishment for being so weak". It's highly unlikely that the witch would have any memories of a private scene between Madoka and Mami, so I assumed it was pulled from Madoka's memory/subconscious.

You're likely right. I was pointing it out as an example of Witches showing memories visibly.

I was talking to someone about the nature of Witches a few days ago and likened them to a kind of poltergeist, but now I'm wondering if that's really true. It seems more like Witches are just twisted versions of MG's, their humanity warped by their grief. They're basically trapped in a loop where they seek a solution to a problem that can't be solved (in their mind), in that Magical Girls (their former life) sought out Soul Gems (souls) to cleanse their own grief but Grief Seeds themselves can't work in the opposite direction. So they're stuck seeking out "grief" like they were as a Magical Girl but because their Seeds only absorb "grief", they can't remove their own, and end up trapped and unable to return to what they used to be.

This might also explain how Witches can revive, since we never see the Seed destroyed like we have seen Soul Gems become destroyed (by shattering them). We know that Soul Gems must be near the body to keep it alive, but there is no implication that the Soul Gem itself would "die" if there was no body to operate. Since we know that Witches can materialize wherever their Seed is, perhaps the Seed can move from place to place. This could be supported by episode 10 where Homura returned to the past in her old body but her Soul Gem was transported from the future to the past. This suggests that Gems/Seeds can operate independent of the human body but that the Seed contains more than what the Gem can handle, so it "shatters" the Gem, abandons the human form, and re-materializes into a form that can contain/hold all the accumulated grief. In theory, if this grief could be "cured", the Seed could reform back into a Gem and the human body could be restored.

This is all completely hypothesis of course. I'm still wondering about the nature of the system and how it relates to the image in Homura's house.

Malkuth

2011-03-12, 21:32

Going a little meta, the only way to have a conclusive ending ending is for Homura to die, since in any other case, there will be the possibility to have another reset.

Jimmy C

2011-03-12, 22:00

No matter what Homura does, eventually Madoka will die of natural causes.

kaigan

2011-03-12, 22:27

Going a little meta, the only way to have a conclusive ending ending is for Homura to die, since in any other case, there will be the possibility to have another reset.

i'm beginning to wonder if it's even possible of purging (viz. "killing" even though she's dead already) homura-chan out. if in the course of any given timeline homu "died" fighting WN or any other means then that means she did not fulfill her mission to protect madoka. that should in turn trigger an "auto-reset" because her wish is to redo her meeting with madoka in order to protect her instead of the other way around.

killed in action does not satisfy the clauses agreed by both QB and homura (qb fulfills the girl's wish, girl becomes PM). killing homura without her wish being fulfilled is a breach in contract which is so unfair while the other girls had theirs.

Malkuth

2011-03-12, 22:47

Am I missing something here? Homura never died in the 4 iterations shown :confused:

Also wishes are fullfilled instantly, and do not have any lasting effects, from what I gather from Mami's case, since she did die in the end. So it is unlikely that it is Homura's wish that restarts events, but instead her power to manipulate time and space... but this raises the question why does not she use it more practically, i.e. not getting trapped by Mami...

Then again what we have seen up until now is not clear if it shown from a certain perspectives (which would be ultra-cool, but will throw off the majority of casual viewer), or it is an objectional presentation :p

In any case, the show already justified both the pre-air hype and the all-star staff already, I just hope they do not do something utterly ridiculous with the last two episode; well a minor fault was QB's exposition last episode with no-sense sci-fi crap :heh:

kaigan

2011-03-12, 22:55

Am I missing something here? Homura never died in the 4 iterations shown :confused:

maybe i'm not using the correct term, but is it not that once a girl turns into a PM they are considered "literally dead" since their souls are ripped out from their bodies?

Zippicus

2011-03-12, 22:55

Going a little meta, the only way to have a conclusive ending ending is for Homura to die, since in any other case, there will be the possibility to have another reset.

Considering that we don't really know the mechanics of Homura's wish, saying "the only" is a bit premature. There's still a few unexplained things going on as well that could affect the outcome of this whole mess.

My current prediction involves Madoka remembering (fairly heavily foreshadowed) previous loops and how to access her (super heavily foreshadowed, supposedly unimaginable) power to fix whatever QB's people did to corrupt the current MG system. But hey only time will tell.

Crontica

2011-03-12, 23:19

What happens when a angel loses their halo? Cause Kyubei got two of them.

Xellos-_^

2011-03-13, 00:07

Considering that we don't really know the mechanics of Homura's wish, saying "the only" is a bit premature. There's still a few unexplained things going on as well that could affect the outcome of this whole mess.

My current prediction involves Madoka remembering (fairly heavily foreshadowed) previous loops and how to access her (super heavily foreshadowed, supposedly unimaginable) power to fix whatever QB's people did to corrupt the current MG system. But hey only time will tell.
what if the furballs didn't corrupt the system but just taking advantage of the result of the system already in place.

I read the previous eps and none of it actually gave any hints or evidence that the evolution of MG to Witches are anything other then just a natural progression.

Triple_R

2011-03-13, 00:15

I don't think that Kyubey's people corrupted the magical girl/witch system. Rather, I think that they created it.

What is likely independent from them, though, is that humans have magical potential inherit in them (or at least some of these girls do). A key, then, may come in finding a way to tap into that magical potential without contracting with Kyubey.

christinemarie

2011-03-13, 00:15

Walpurgis Night started all this problem whoever she is. She's the first one to encounter QB. If the possible movie is true, with everyone remembers what happened in the previous history and how to deal with the problem and work together as a team (sixth timeline, with Madoka wishing to QB that every Puella Magi would remember what happened before or obtain knowledge from Madoka as Homura resets it once again for the sixth time, with Madoka preventing QB from interfering.)

Shadow5YA

2011-03-13, 00:35

Homura's wish was to redo her meeting with Madoka, so that she can protect her instead of being protected. I would assume that means Homura is free to timeloop when she can no longer protect Madoka (i.e. she dies or becomes a Witch), because that would go against the terms of what she wished for.

maybe i'm not using the correct term, but is it not that once a girl turns into a PM they are considered "literally dead" since their souls are ripped out from their bodies?

It depends on your metaphysical view of what constitutes life and death. For some, the artificial body means no life. For others, they would see themselves as alive as long as they have a body and their soul still exists. Not everyone has the same beliefs on the matter, and the girls' different reactions to the revelation that Puella Magi are inhuman in ep5-6 shows that.

Here are my predictions: the ending will receive mixed reviews or disappoint many. Why? Because I bet there are those who see Urobuchi as synonymous with Bad End. However, it won't end with Kyubey's victory and Homura timelooping again.

There is no point in another ending where Madoka dies or turns into a Witch with Homura going to another timeline because it provides nothing that was not already shown in ep10. The end result for this timeline must show some progress or difference that Homura can take and learn from, or these upcoming last two episodes will be pointless and the series could have ended at episode 10.

Does that mean that all will be well? No, I am not expecting Madoka to bring back Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko, with their souls, lives, and sanity intact. I just suspect that Madoka will not die from Walpurgis Night or immediately turn into a Witch this time around. Whether Madoka will create a miracle and change the system Kyubey put in place, or simply resign to following Homura through time with still no clear solution at hand... is complelely up in the air.

Just don't expect a total victory for Kyubey and a complete loss for Madoka and Homura. There are details that would support the sweetness of a bittersweet ending and not a completely bitter ending.

Myssa Rei

2011-03-13, 00:46

*snips*

Oriko Magica could have some answers. I was expecting a sequel, but it's apparently a PREQUEL. Who's getting some Higurashi vibes with this one, eh? Particularly that timeline without K1?

http://www.dokidokivisual.com/madokamagica/oriko/img/img_oriko.jpg

Zippicus

2011-03-13, 01:44

what if the furballs didn't corrupt the system but just taking advantage of the result of the system already in place.

I read the previous eps and none of it actually gave any hints or evidence that the evolution of MG to Witches are anything other then just a natural progression.

It's certainly possible that it's a natural thing. The only thing that makes me think otherwise is that the girls are shown to have magical potential before QB does anything at all to them. They've also made it pretty clear that the soul gem getting corrupted is what causes it to transform into a grief seed. Given QB's track record it wouldn't surprise me at all if the soul gem/grief seed is the root of the problem since he's totally amoral and desires the power from the witch transformation.

That and the title of the show would imply that Madoka will be a MS, and Homura's wish would cause a reset under QB's rules.

novalysis

2011-03-13, 01:50

It's certainly possible that it's a natural thing. The only thing that makes me think otherwise is that the girls are shown to have magical potential before QB does anything at all to them. They've also made it pretty clear that the soul gem getting corrupted is what causes it to transform into a grief seed. Given QB's track record it wouldn't surprise me at all if the soul gem/grief seed is the root of the problem since he's totally amoral and desires the power from the witch transformation.

That and the title of the show would imply that Madoka will be a MS, and Homura's wish would cause a reset under QB's rules.

If Madoka is truly powerful enough to rewrite the system , she may very well do so at the end of Madoka Magica . While Kyubey would most certainly not grant a wish that would end the collection of Anti-Entropic material , I have a theory that Madoka would modify the system somewhat , making Witch hood reversible, while making the rewards for Corporation over Soloing higher. Homura would probably go on to the next time-line - the tragedy is that Madoka's new system would have been the kind Homura in the Second time-loop might have done very well in.

Xellos-_^

2011-03-13, 01:53

That and the title of the show would imply that Madoka will be a MS, and Homura's wish would cause a reset under QB's rules.
well Madoka WAS a MG in the other timeline.

Zippicus

2011-03-13, 01:56

well Madoka WAS a MG in the other timeline.

Yeah but we're watching this timeline lol.

MaiNoKen

2011-03-13, 02:25

Jimmy C

2011-03-13, 03:58

I thought about that possibility too. Makes you wonder what Timeline 6 would look like if that happened.
Madoka's wish in timeline 4 remains the wildcard. Yet, if she did make a wish that could help Homura in Timeline 5 and beyond, it feels like a free lunch that Gen is not known for giving.

panzerfan

2011-03-13, 04:15

Hmm...

I think I will stave off from supporting MeoTwister5 about the decoherence in IMW for now, since this is something that not only might be reading too much into the premise, but that it requires some thinking to give it due credit. I will answer in another post on this.

I have been talking with SpaceBrotha, Arkeus, Mamott, FlameSparkZ, PhoenixG and Sheba about the issue with the looping here, and a few things comes to mind:

I. Homura's wish has 2 components. The first component being that she wants to meet Madoka again and the second being that she wants to be the one that will protect Madoka instead of being protected by Madoka.

II. There are two possible routes to take regarding wishes in relation to the life/death of magical girls, one being that it becomes void the moment the magical girl dies, or that the wish stays put. Kamijou is the vital test-case scenario here.

III. Incubator has stated the argument that one can't leave the universe withering once humanity takes to the stars, but at the same time, he is responsible for meeting only the short-term quota on energy harvest. In short, Incubator has a definite responsibility in meeting this quota and stops at this point in the magical girl recruitment.

When we take in account of the following, what can be derived are thus:

1. Homura will get a loop termination clause provided that the wish will be invalidated the moment she dies. If not, then Homura will be in a bind. She will essentially fail the clauses of the wish by death/becoming a witch and will repeat the loop.

2. Homura's wish is worded so that she can technically pick other save points, if she can learn to manipulate time enough as her abilities continue to grow. Although the phrasing tends to infer to the first contact with Madoka, strict interpretation of the wordings do not factor out any other meeting with Madoka.

3. Even if Homura managed to terminate the loop and make it out of Walpurgis Night with Madoka, a strict interpretation of her wish would be that she will be bound to protect Madoka, and failure to do so means a reload.

4. Even if Homura and Madoka have managed to survive Walpurgis Night alive and well, Incubator's direct responsibility in meeting that quota might not be met. Unless if the Incubator's direct responsibility is met, Madoka and Homura are not quite out of the woods yet.

5. Kyuubee may not have reached his quota with the death of Madoka in the first loop where Homura contracted with him. This would indirectly lead itself to justifying Kyuubee contracting Homura in the first place.