View Full Version : Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll
See, he told her about Homura as an unknown--but during the fight the closest one who could be a threat to Kyoko's plan was Madoka who QB had judged to have more potential than Mami. Wouldn't the threat of having MG Madoka being born in the middle of the fight have been a better deterrent?... You want Kyubey to tell Kyoko that there is another potential magical girl out there who could be a threat to her plan?
Decagon, with all due respect, that is an absolutely horrible idea.
Kyubey: It would be unwise for you to go after Sayaka. She has a friend with the potential to be a very powerful magical girl!
Kyoko: Oh yeah? Thanks a lot for giving me a heads up about her, Kyubey! I definitely want to kill her off too, then, before she can become that powerful magical girl. No way I want a more powerful magical girl than me out there! Now where can I find this potential magical girl, Kyubey? Look back at that quote and note that I never said he should warn her about Sayaka's friend. Much in the same way he was ambiguous about Homura, he could have been ambiguous about Madoka.
There's at least two good reasons:
1. Because Sayaka is quite likely to take counter-productive actions if she's told about Kyoko.
2. Because Kyoko might want to exact revenge on Kyubey if he gets in the way of her plans. You assume that someone who spent so much time wondering if she should spend the rest of her life facing danger for the sake of a boy she was in love with would run headlong into a fight she was outclassed for? She was trembling at the prospect of having to just go on patrol; why wouldn't she be more cautious about someone actively trying to harm her?
If he's trying to set up a fight, then why would he offer up a reason for Kyoko to not get into that exact fight? In other words, why would he even hint at Homura's presence to Kyoko? Why would he risk dissuading Kyoko from getting into a fight with Sayaka, if his whole plan is for that fight to happen?
If he wanted to warn her about Homura, why didn't he say "Oh, and that strong magical girl I warned you about is friendly with and stalking someone who always accompanies that new MG I told you about!"
Her supposed regeneration?
Decagon, she has regeneration. Period.
And now you're saying that just because the story hasn't yet brought up the idea of immortal MGs that we can completely rule out the idea that Sayaka's regeneration surpasses deathblows?
Well, by that rationale, I guess we can also rule out the idea that magical girls can turn into witches, since one would expect a discussion of that to have turned up in the story by now as well....
Yes, I'm of the opinion that one cannot regenerate from death. That is a speculation because we only observed her recovering from debilitating wounds and not an injury that would kill her. She would probably have a hard time using magic if she were dead, but I'm sure Kyubey would have love it if some of his MGs were immortal.
Kyubey being "more proactive" may simply have worsened the situation. At least some of your suggestions would have actually made matters worse.
Do you honestly think that Sayaka would leave her best friend Madoka, and the boy that she loved so much that her one big wish was made for him, on the mere threat of a more experiened magical girl coming after her?
That's not at all in keeping with Sayaka's established characterization.Do I think Sayaka would? I think Sayaka would if you think Kyoko would be the kind of person to kill someone. Do you think Kyoko would kill Sayaka's boyfriend or best friend if it was easier? You seem to think she is capable of killing a non-MG Madoka from the hypothetical you gave earlier. I think that would keep with Kyoko's established characterization.
The whole reason why Kyoko went after Sayaka is because Sayaka is now in territory that Kyoko is laying a claim to. As long as Sayaka is within any part of that territory, Kyoko's motivation here remains.
Now, if Sayaka moves out of that territory, she might simply end up in the territory of a different magical girl. Another magical girl who might not take kindly to a new magical girl in town. I'm sure Kyoko must have left a clean vacancy as Kyubey was otherwise preoccupied.
Well, there are different Batman continuities. In at least some of them, you only get to be be Bruce Wayne's ward if you agree to become Batman's Robin.
A Robin for every occasion then. For some reason, this reminds me of the anime law of realized Ranma 1/2 fanfiction crossovers converging with the number of total fictional series at infinity.
Shadow5YA
2011-02-06, 10:46
Well, why would she know how to use a sword, it's more or less her second time wielding one. While i am no big fan of Sayaka, her not being a sword expert is very understandable - in fact, it would be more weird if she did display amazing martial prowess with it. While her MG powers does grant her some aptitude with them (she can throw them with reasonable accuracy), her not being savvy about melee combat is the expected course of things. Especially when fighting against a weapon-user, not a badly animated color blob. Her being bad at it is the natural course of things - practice makes perfect, and she has had none. Kyoko (or anyone probably) dominating Sayaka in melee combat is to be expected at this point in time.
Oh, no, I'm not complaining about the writing. As you said, she is inexperienced, and SHAFT did a great job of portraying that. I dislike Sayaka because of her character, not because she's poorly written. She honestly thought she would be okay and better off than Mami just because she defeated her first witch with ease. That overconfidence annoys me, especially when I thought Mami's death would humble her a little.
I don't support Kyouko's ideals, but at this point I'm cheering her on to knock down Sayaka's ego.
That's baseless assumption. We never know how strong Madoka is anyway.
You're being a bit disingenuous. We have been told over and over that Madoka has a huge amount of magical potential, greater than anyone else we know currently.
That's just making things deep...>_> Please take things simple.
A great many people here have theories more complex than this. Hell, we've been arguing to keep things simple, such as that Kyube isn't evil, more amoral than anything else.
Character can change at any-time.
Not without good reason.
Oh, no, I'm not complaining about the writing. As you said, she is inexperienced, and SHAFT did a great job of portraying that. I dislike Sayaka because of her character, not because she's poorly written. She honestly thought she would be okay and better off than Mami just because she defeated her first witch with ease. That overconfidence annoys me, especially when I thought Mami's death would humble her a little.
I don't support Kyouko's ideals, but at this point I'm cheering her on to knock down Sayaka's ego.
Curious, why do you believe this when there is no evidence to even suggest it?
Hell, many people here have argued that being an MG is a death sentence or slavery. And yet Sayaka chose to become one with full knowledge of that, in order to make her friend happy. Would you really mock someone who chose to die for you? If so, it says more about you, then it does about the person you're "cheering" against.
Shadow5YA
2011-02-06, 12:58
Curious, why do you believe this when there is no evidence to even suggest it?
Hell, many people here have argued that being an MG is a death sentence or slavery. And yet Sayaka chose to become one with full knowledge of that, in order to make her friend happy. Would you really mock someone who chose to die for you? If so, it says more about you, then it does about the person you're "cheering" against.
A character is made up of more than just their intentions. There are villains who act for the sake of others, and there are also "good" guys who help others with only their self interest in mind.
It's not like the Puella Magi are fighting for everyone's sake. As Homura said before, they fight for their own wishes. Sayaka became a Puella Magi for Kyousuke's healing, not because she has a duty to protect every single life -- that is secondary.
However, Sayaka picks a fight with Kyouko because of her idea to protect people in general. That is different from what she wished for, and that is an entirely different matter that she has to prepare for.
In the meantime, the familiar is escaping and possibly harming other people. If Sayaka really cared about other people that much, she would have put her pride aside and went around Kyouko instead of wasting time trying to fight her. She is not committed to protecting the general public, despite what she says.
However, Sayaka picks a fight with Kyouko because of her idea to protect people in general. That is different from what she wished for, and that is an entirely different matter that she has to prepare for.
In the meantime, the familiar is escaping and possibly harming other people. If Sayaka really cared about other people that much, she would have put her pride aside and went around Kyouko instead of wasting time trying to fight her. She is not committed to protecting the general public, despite what she says.
What makes you think Kyoko would have let her? Remember, Kyoko told her outright not to kill familiars and let them grow into witches.
In order to believe that Sayaka could have gone after the familiar, you'd have to believe that Kyoko wasn't intent on stealing the territory, and wouldn't have tried to stop Sayaka from killing the familiar... which is blatantly contradicted when Kyoko did stop Sayak from killing it.
In short, Sayaka already knew what most of figured out: there would be no killing of the familiar unless Kyoko was gone, which is why Sayaka attacked.
Ok, let's recapitulate the things we got to know in ep. 5:
Kyuubee touches girls with his rabbit-like ears to turn them into magical girls
Magical girls have differently coloured eggs (soulgems). Mami had a golden one, Sayaka has a sky-blue one and Kyouko had as blood-red one.
The wish of a magical girl directly influences their powers, e.g. Sayaka wished for someone to be healed and thus has great self-healing powers. This might be connected to the colour of the girl's eggs.
Still no real proof that Kyuubee is any more than a door-to-door salesman selling contracts to girls, so the "Kyuubee is evil" theory is still as baseless as before.
Yet more proof that Homura isn't one of the good guys girls: she flat-out refuses Madoka's plea for help, and also she said it's stupid to fight witches to help other people.
Again, Homura watched a fight (this time between Sayaka and Kyouko) from the sidelines. If it wouldn't have been for Madoka being about to become a magical girl, Homura wouldn't have intervened and would've had no problem with seeing Sayaka being completely trashed or even killed.
We get to know where witches come from. Magical girls don't turn into witches (which was ludicrous in the first place), but instead familiars become witches when they consume weak people.
Confirmation that fighting familiars doesn't give grief seeds, only fighting witches. This is why Kyouko let the familiar escape, so it can prey on a weak person and become a witch.
In addition to what Triple R said, I'm of the opinion that Kyube is merely a "robot" in that he was created for a specific purpose, without much in the way of emotions. So it's possible he's not showing them simply because he wasn't programmed with them. Stuffed animals generally hold the same expression regardless of they are thinking.
That doesn't sound too far off, actually. This far he hasn't shown any real emotions or evil intentions, so he might well be a robot or stuffed animal animated with magic. Then again, his static face might just be the animation studio pulling a cheap one and by foregoing any facial expressions or animations for Kyuubee :heh:
That doesn't sound too far off, actually. This far he hasn't shown any real emotions or evil intentions, so he might well be a robot or stuffed animal animated with magic. Then again, his static face might just be the animation studio pulling a cheap one and by foregoing any facial expressions or animations for Kyuubee :heh:
Of course, given that, I can understand why people get the creepy vibes, even if they can't articulate it. We humans read facial expressions on a subconscious level. When something acts and talks like a sentient being, but there are no emotions displayed, it unnerves us; it's not something we are used to, and because we can't read the individual, we become afraid. It's a natural reaction, because being able to read someone is a survival mechanism.
On a subconscious level, "fight or flight" is activated, and people lash out by trying to destroy the individual. That's why people would generally tend to call Kyube evil. I mean, I feel the creepy vibes, too, but looked inside myself to analyze why and do a little research. There is an impulse there to strike out, to destroy, belittle, or otherwise render the target impotent. But by recognizing the bias formed by preconceived survival notions, I can work around it.
It could very well be that the writers made him that way to evoke those feelings, but time will tell as to whether they meant it as a sign, or as a way to fuck with the viewers. If it's a sign, then it is a very obvious one. If it's just a way to fuck with me, well, I am prepared for the possibility so I can't be fucked with any longer. :heh:
Am I the only one who thinks that only witches and their familiars are actually evil? There's hints for Kyubei but I'm still unsure how to judge him. Kyoko just has a wicked personality and as for Homerun... baseball players can't be evil, see Level E!
Sanger Zonvolt
2011-02-06, 14:08
Decent enough episode, I caught that little bit a recycled animation, but didn't bother me much.
Kyoko has the coolest weapon yet I have to say, depending on how long she lives, I could see her becoming one of my favorites, as I always like a psycho killer bitch, I really hope she stays unredeemable to fit into the context of this series' tone.
Homura continues to have the nice nihilist view that I enjoy in that kind of character, even when she becomes an ally of Madoka I hope she keeps the same type of personality.
8/10
Kazu-kun
2011-02-06, 14:36
Am I the only one who thinks that only witches and their familiars are actually evil?
I'm sure you're not the only one, but to me, they seem more like animals hunting their natural preys (humans). At least, that's what their behavior and Kyoko's words imply. I don't see anything inherently evil about them (for now).
Kyoko has the coolest weapon yet I have to say, depending on how long she lives, I could see her becoming one of my favorites, as I always like a psycho killer bitch, I really hope she stays unredeemable to fit into the context of this series' tone.She's already my favorite. No dere-dere FTW.
As for unredeemable, I'm hoping her backstory is just full of complete evilness.
applejuice
2011-02-06, 18:17
A great many people here have theories more complex than this. Hell, we've been arguing to keep things simple, such as that Kyube isn't evil, more amoral than anything else.That's my point, actually. People are going way too deep about every single action characters take, when it is no-more than simple obvious conversation.
and as I said somewhere before, Kyuube might not be evil, but certainly not a favourable guy to rely on.
Not without good reason.
Flags everywhere. Like imo violin kid who basically throwing bad aura all around. But we never know. This will never go in a good way, knowing what Sayaka said in the fourth episode during soliloquy.
However, Sayaka picks a fight with Kyouko because of her idea to protect people in general. That is different from what she wished for, and that is an entirely different matter that she has to prepare for.
In the meantime, the familiar is escaping and possibly harming other people. If Sayaka really cared about other people that much, she would have put her pride aside and went around Kyouko instead of wasting time trying to fight her. She is not committed to protecting the general public, despite what she says.
Another example of people going too 'DEEP' on 'SURFACE' elements. First, Sayaka attacked Kyouko, since Kyoko is selfish bitch. Nothing more than that. Also, trigger of fight was actually Kyoko anyway and someone actually had intention to kill was Kyoko. Someone who was supposed to be defeated from the first attack was Sayaka, not Kyoko. So your logics falls into the deaf ears.
Second, did Sayaka ever had a pride in any sort? It has been obvious she is 'hiding' all her true emotions under that 'fake display of pride' in order to make Madoka feel better.
Shadow5YA
2011-02-06, 22:37
Kyouko IS a selfish bitch. However, Sayaka still is in no position to lecture her. The Puella Magi fight in compensation for the desire granted through that wish. There is nothing that says they're supposed to be good civil servants protecting the people; that's just Sayaka trying to force her ideals on Kyouko. Protecting other lives, while noble, is beyond their normal call of duty.
Sayaka COULD have placed priority on getting to the familiar and focused on getting around or past Kyouko. However, Sayaka did not just, because Kyouko pissed her off, or as Kyubey puts it, she couldn't accept Kyouko. At this moment, she is more concerned about beating Kyouko than she is about keeping close pursuit on the familiar. It may be a natural reaction to pick a fight, but it still shows that her conviction to protect others for justice is not a top priority and that she's in way over her head.
Of course Sayaka is aware that she could die for her wish, but that just means she's prepared to kill Witches. However, living to protect every other life is a different and bigger cause than what she is prepared for.
applejuice
2011-02-06, 22:52
Kyouko IS a selfish bitch. However, Sayaka still is in no position to lecture her. The Puella Magi fight in compensation for the desire granted through that wish. There is nothing that says they're supposed to be good civil servants protecting the people; that's just Sayaka trying to force her ideals on Kyouko. Protecting other lives, while noble, is beyond their normal call of duty.You are not getting it. From what I remember, Sayaka never lectured. She never forced her ideal to Kyoko. She did not even say that she wanted to defeat kyoko. They just 'FOUGHT' and that's all that was presented. From that circumstance, only conclusion that can be made is Sayaka was fighting because KYOKO IS ANNOYING and IMMORAL. There is no other reason. For instance, if you see someone in front of you saying, 'it is good let people die lalala strongest survive! everyone can die!', you will want to punch him, regardless of who you are, not just puella magi or whatever heros.
Going deep into is utterly meaningless.
AuroraFlash
2011-02-06, 23:13
How good is this new series? I am quite interested in getting hooked on something new.
You are not getting it. From what I remember, Sayaka never lectured. She never forced her ideal to Kyoko. She did not even say that she wanted to defeat kyoko. They just 'FOUGHT' and that's all that was presented. From that circumstance, only conclusion that can be made is Sayaka was fighting because KYOKO IS ANNOYING and IMMORAL. There is no other reason. For instance, if you see someone in front of you saying, 'it is good let people die lalala strongest survive! everyone can die!', you will want to punch him, regardless of who you are, not just puella magi or whatever heros.
That's pretty much what Kyouko says when she tells them that the familiar needs to get away just so it can destroy and devour some weak person in order to become a witch, just so she can fight the witch and harvest the grief seed.
Thus, it's only natural to want to kick her butt. I'd be quite disturbed even about anyone who didn't want to kick her butt after that speech.
SuzushinaYuriko
2011-02-06, 23:20
How good is this new series? I am quite interested in getting hooked on something new.
You probably shouldn't have went onto this thread to ask that since you'd risk spoiling youself. :heh:
I'd say Madoka is one of the best shows this season. It has an incredible soundtrack (Kajiura Yuki), creativity with its universe, an original and engaging plot, and its one of those shows that stir up an insane amount of discussions, theories, and fanart. Give it three episodes and you'll be hooked.
Kyouko IS a selfish bitch. However, Sayaka still is in no position to lecture her. The Puella Magi fight in compensation for the desire granted through that wish. There is nothing that says they're supposed to be good civil servants protecting the people; that's just Sayaka trying to force her ideals on Kyouko. Protecting other lives, while noble, is beyond their normal call of duty.
Sayaka COULD have placed priority on getting to the familiar and focused on getting around or past Kyouko. However, Sayaka did not just, because Kyouko pissed her off, or as Kyubey puts it, she couldn't accept Kyouko. At this moment, she is more concerned about beating Kyouko than she is about keeping close pursuit on the familiar. It may be a natural reaction to pick a fight, but it still shows that her conviction to protect others for justice is not a top priority and that she's in way over her head.
Of course Sayaka is aware that she could die for her wish, but that just means she's prepared to kill Witches. However, living to protect every other life is a different and bigger cause than what she is prepared for.
You are not getting it. From what I remember, Sayaka never lectured. She never forced her ideal to Kyoko. She did not even say that she wanted to defeat kyoko. They just 'FOUGHT' and that's all that was presented. From that circumstance, only conclusion that can be made is Sayaka was fighting because KYOKO IS ANNOYING and IMMORAL. There is no other reason. For instance, if you see someone in front of you saying, 'it is good let people die lalala strongest survive! everyone can die!', you will want to punch him, regardless of who you are, not just puella magi or whatever heros.
Going deep into is utterly meaningless.
What?
Sayaka is fighting Kyoko because Kyoko won't let Sayaka kill the familiar. Kyoko wants to let the familiar kill a person first, become a witch, and then harvest that witch for a grief seed.
And Sayaka is the selfish one imposing her morals on Kyoko?
What?
Shadow5YA
2011-02-06, 23:56
What?
Sayaka is fighting Kyoko because Kyoko won't let Sayaka kill the familiar. Kyoko wants to let the familiar kill a person first, become a witch, and then harvest that witch for a grief seed.
And Sayaka is the selfish one imposing her morals on Kyoko?
What?
That remains to be seen. Like I said, Sayaka could always fall back and go around Kyoko, or at least she could attempt to run past Kyoko during their fight. However, Sayaka wants to fight Kyoko because she's uncaring and it annoys the hell out of her. Beating Kyoko is a priority for Sayaka.
And Sayaka is the selfish one imposing her morals on Kyoko?
What?
What? You make it sound like there can only be one selfish person between them. The point is, there are ways around that fight. Sayaka didn't make an effort to get past Kyoko any way possible and instead intended to fight her to win all the way through. Sayaka didn't see Kyoko just as an obstacle to getting to the familiar but as an enemy who opposes her ideals. There IS a difference. Sayaka is not prepared to protect everyone.
hoarfrost
2011-02-06, 23:57
How good is this new series? I am quite interested in getting hooked on something new.
My opinion? Hands the best show of the season, which isn't something I throw around lightly. Not only are the writing, visuals, and music high quality but what I like the most is that it's one of those titles that brings everyone together for speculations and discussions, which is always a plus.
My recommendation is to marathon episodes 1-5 and join the fun.
MartianMage
2011-02-07, 00:18
How good is this new series? I am quite interested in getting hooked on something new.
Depends on your taste but it's my current favorite for this season and it's currently the favorite of the majority too. Yeah give it a try and marathon this series. You might find yourself glued to your pc searching the net for all sorts of madoka related articles after watching this.
● ω ●
For instance, if you see someone in front of you saying, 'it is good let people die lalala strongest survive! everyone can die!', you will want to punch him, regardless of who you are, not just puella magi or whatever heros.
Going deep into is utterly meaningless.
You forgot one thing,because of the screwed up system if you don't let others die then you might be the one dying,or at least something quite bad will happen to you.
If you kill off all familiars,no more witches,no more witches means no more grief seeds,no more grief seeds means you can't purify your egg anymore and whatever bad thing that happens when it goes all black will happen to you.
You guys analyzed too much about Sayaka's actions. She is the kind of character acting before thinking. She is just pissed off by Kyoko. She gets too much more emotions than she can hold so she wants to throw her emotions at the most convenient target. Similar to demanding Houmura to return the grief seed at the end of ep 3. You may judge right and wrong at given circumstances, but it certainly is not rational.
If you kill off all familiars,no more witches,no more witches means no more grief seeds,no more grief seeds means you can't purify your egg anymore and whatever bad thing that happens when it goes all black will happen to you.
While we know witches can grow from familiars, we don't know that familiars are the only source of witches since all the familiars we have seen are already minions of existing witches.
How good is this new series? I am quite interested in getting hooked on something new.Close to number one spot for the season, but I haven't given it much thought. At the very least it's a fun show.
BTW, you should ask these questions in the suggestion forum. Asking here is like asking the fruit seller if fruit are good.
At least some more exciting battle between mahou shoujos (:
Can't wait to watch ep6.
I must say madoka magica did change my concept about mahou shoujo based animes.
I must say madoka magica did change my concept about mahou shoujo based animes.
It have not changed that much to me. What it have done for me is to show a possible path that the genre can take. If the whole series deliver in the way some fans expect from Uroboshi when it will be complete, it might be compared to the revolution that the Spaghetti Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_Western) have been to the Western genre. Otherwise it could be another bunny hop from another series that have been hold back by the small hesitation that have made it play safe when it could have done a giant leap.
applejuice
2011-02-07, 17:49
You guys analyzed too much about Sayaka's actions. She is the kind of character acting before thinking. She is just pissed off by Kyoko. She gets too much more emotions than she can hold so she wants to throw her emotions at the most convenient target. Similar to demanding Houmura to return the grief seed at the end of ep 3. You may judge right and wrong at given circumstances, but it certainly is not rational.
That's what I wanted to say at the start. Thanks.
Just because this series has tons of Faust reference, it doesn't mean we should analyse the most normal reactions.
I loved the cafe sequence between Homura and Madoka, between the incidental music and Homura telling Madoka to give up on Sayaka that was an excellent moment.
When Kamijo was presented with his violin, I was kind of expecting him to not be able to play, in that twisted monkey's paw fashion. Although as it is, Sayaka's wish didn't seem to cover his legs, so maybe he'll not be able to walk properly again.
Is it me, or was the bit where Kyubey looms up at Madoka and we get the patented SHAFT eyeball zoom-in sequence just creepy or what? Especially as Madoka appearing 'in' Kyubey's eye has a certain symmetry with the end title sequence.
So, the big fight, and the difference in attitude between Sayaka and Kyoko - while Sayaka made a wish to help someone else and sees herself as defender of the city, Kyoko's attitude is much more selfish, and it wouldn't surprise me if her wish was a selfish one. She'll quite happily let people die to turn a familiar into a witch so she can score more grief seeds. As she says, it's the food chain.
And Homura appears just in the nick of time to prevent Madoka doing something rash, despite further temptation from our favourite furball.
As a little side-note: The instrument playing the "Ave Maria" during Kamijo's performance was definitely the deepest violin I've ever heard ^_^
I'd rather think it was a viola.
erneiz_hyde
2011-02-07, 18:58
What? You make it sound like there can only be one selfish person between them. The point is, there are ways around that fight. Sayaka didn't make an effort to get past Kyoko any way possible and instead intended to fight her to win all the way through. Sayaka didn't see Kyoko just as an obstacle to getting to the familiar but as an enemy who opposes her ideals. There IS a difference. Sayaka is not prepared to protect everyone.
You haven't watched or read enough literatures. When someone is deadset on blocking other's path, there really is no way around it. If they try to get through and run, exposing your back on the blocker is a death sentence. Suppose Sayaka managed to run past Kyoko and catched up on the familiar, what's stopping Kyoko to stab her in the back when Sayaka's busy fighting the familiar?
And you know what? I'd be surprised if any morally-good people didn't get pissed off at Kyoko. Look at what happened to Uncle Ben when Peter didn't catch the thief.
As a little side-note: The instrument playing the "Ave Maria" during Kamijo's performance was definitely the deepest violin I've ever heard ^_^
I'd rather think it was a viola.
I think it was a violin. The song gets a "deep" feeling because Kamijou is playing mostly on the lower strings. Also, the song doesn't go beyond the lowest note a violin can play.
fukarming
2011-02-08, 05:55
Everyone keeps thinking how Kyubei screw around Sayaka's wish (Kamijo's arm is healed by he cannot play the violin....etc). Had anyone thought of that Kyubei's wish is actually fair? Kamijo will recover fully in no time. But then Kamijo will likely say goodbye to Sayaka in the fashion of "I am going to Germany for a tour. Here is a ticket. Come see me play if you have time" and then Kamijo left Sayaka's life which Sayaka will be unhappy and things will happen.
Everyone keeps thinking how Kyubei screw around Sayaka's wish (Kamijo's arm is healed by he cannot play the violin....etc). Had anyone thought of that Kyubei's wish is actually fair? Kamijo will recover fully in no time. But then Kamijo will likely say goodbye to Sayaka in the fashion of "I am going to Germany for a tour. Here is a ticket. Come see me play if you have time" and then Kamijo left Sayaka's life which Sayaka will be unhappy and things will happen.
Course not, you silly person. Their obviously must be a catch! There has to be! Because if there wasn't, then that would force us to completely reevaluate our stated beliefs thus far, and we can't have that! Yes, I know there has been no downsides to wishes shown so far, but I just know there has to be! :heh:
And you know what? I'd be surprised if any morally-good people didn't get pissed off at Kyoko. Look at what happened to Uncle Ben when Peter didn't catch the thief.
Haven't you ever read in phlosophies that morality is emergant and subjective? It is naive to assume that what you consider as morally-good coincides with anyone else's, it can, but that does neither make true or correct. Kyouko is just cynically practical, and frankly more down to earth than self-proclaimed champions of justice.
fukarming
2011-02-08, 15:41
Course not, you silly person. Their obviously must be a catch! There has to be! Because if there wasn't, then that would force us to completely reevaluate our stated beliefs thus far, and we can't have that! Yes, I know there has been no downsides to wishes shown so far, but I just know there has to be! :heh:
I just don't understand why everyone is piling on Kyubei when the wish go wrong (It didn't technically go wrong, see my Mami example) instead of the MG - you should have make a more specific wish. So far we know about the wishes of two MG, Mami and Sayaka. Let's analyse Mami's case:
Mami is in about to die, she wish to live, Kyubei grant it to her. She lives.
Mami, however, lives an unhappy life, both because of losing her family, and because the MG job make her feel lonely. Why couldn't Mami, when making her wish, states that I want to be alive and happy! (Will that count as two wishes? :heh:) How about rewording it as I want to live a happy life until 100 years old. This wish implied living and happy, and it sounds like one wish :D
I know I know, I am just teasing here. Mami is 5 sec to death and she probably didn't think too deeply.
But Kyubei is shown giving time to MG to think about their wishes (Sayaka and Madoka). They should have come up with a perfectly worded wish instead of blaming the wish granter when things went wrong. Kinda like people who blame they win the lottery and brought them misfortune. The lottery (Kyubei) is not at fault, the winner (MG) are if they get into trouble afterwards. (poor finance management/ poorly worded wish)
J the Drafter
2011-02-08, 20:20
Haven't you ever read in phlosophies that morality is emergant and subjective? It is naive to assume that what you consider as morally-good coincides with anyone else's, it can, but that does neither make true or correct. Kyouko is just cynically practical, and frankly more down to earth than self-proclaimed champions of justice.
I'd feel much safer with Sayaka as my neighbor than Kyoko, especially if I had something valuable in my house.
Triple_R
2011-02-08, 21:14
I'd feel much safer with Sayaka as my neighbor than Kyoko, especially if I had something valuable in my house.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I don't think I'd characterize Kyoko as evil. Her position, at least so far, is intellectually defensible. It does make some pragmatic sense. But it is a very cold position, and perhaps a heartless one.
So, on the whole, I much prefer Sayaka's position, even if it is a little bit naive.
I'd rather have people that are a bit naive but very well-intentioned, then people that are very "with it" but only care about themselves.
TheEroKing
2011-02-09, 05:09
Homura being from the future seems very much possible and her concern towards Madoka, trying to kill Kyubey before he got to her in the 1st episode might also indicate that she is related to Madoka in some way like her daughter or granddaughter :heh:
octoberasian
2011-02-09, 05:28
After seeing episode 5 again for the umpteenth-time, it kind of hit me:
... Now, I haven't been reading the forum posts as of late due to being busy with work so I'm not sure if this was ever suggested.
So here it goes.
The logic goes like this-- if what you wish becomes your unique power, then Mami isn't dead.
Think about it.
Sayaka wished for the power of healing to help her pseudo-boyfriend get healed completely. In return, Sayaka has an innate ability to heal herself of any injury inflicted upon her.
Now, take Mami. She was at Death's door in the mangled mess of her car. Her parents are dead. Kyuubei out of mere coincidence (?) appears in front of her and propositions her to make a wish to live and not die in the car crash. In exchange, she is contracted to Kyuubei for eternity to be a mahou shoujo.
It may be a loophole where Kyuubei mentioned that you cannot wish the dead to come back alive. If you can't wish others back to life, how about yourself? What if Mami's innate ability allows her to resurrect herself? Mmm, sort of like an auto-Reraise spell.
She made the wish to live and so if that's true, in theory her innate power has to be the ability to avoid death.
Up until now, we still have not seen her unique innate ability. Only the most obvious being Sayaka's auto-Regen (more or less). Each mahou shoujo specializes in one weapon-- Homura are either bows or mines if going by episode 3; Sayaka are swords; and Mami are guns. But, they aren't their unique abilities that define them who they are as a mahou shoujo and separate themselves from every other magical girl.
How about Homura then?
If that's the case, my best bet is that Homura seems to be foresight or precognition. Case in point-- of the two or three times that Kyuubei seemingly forces his hand upon Madoka to make a wish to become a magical girl, Homura is there at the precise moment before she even makes the wish. Could her wish be that she wanted to see the future? This goes back to the whole "time loop" theory I saw several times popped up here in these Madoka threads. Homura knows what will happen, and my guess is that the beginning of episode one is the one and last time that she'll probably be unable to stop Madoka from suffering the same fate as other magical girls that have died. Homura already has seen countless number of girls die doing this, and has made every effort she can to stop others from making the same... mistake.
This then comes up with another question: Why Madoka? Why is her attention solely focused on Madoka?
Depending on the fansub group who's subbing episode 5, she even apologizes for not paying attention on Sayaka telling me she has the majority of her attention devoted to Madoka.
I know it sounds crazy but it just hit me when I saw episode 5 again. Episode 3 is definitely not the last time we will see Mami again if my theory proves true if going by the contract-wish system in this anime so far.
After seeing episode 5 again for the umpteenth-time, it kind of hit me:
... Now, I haven't been reading the forum posts as of late due to being busy with work so I'm not sure if this was ever suggested.
So here it goes.
The logic goes like this-- if what you wish becomes your unique power, then Mami isn't dead.
Think about it.
Sayaka wished for the power of healing to help her pseudo-boyfriend get healed completely. In return, Sayaka has an innate ability to heal herself of any injury inflicted upon her.
Now, take Mami. She was at Death's door in the mangled mess of her car. Her parents are dead. Kyuubei out of mere coincidence (?) appears in front of her and propositions her to make a wish to live and not die in the car crash. In exchange, she is contracted to Kyuubei for eternity to be a mahou shoujo.
It may be a loophole where Kyuubei mentioned that you cannot wish the dead to come back alive. If you can't wish others back to life, how about yourself? What if Mami's innate ability allows her to resurrect herself? Mmm, sort of like an auto-Reraise spell.
She made the wish to live and so if that's true, in theory her innate power has to be the ability to avoid death.
Up until now, we still have not seen her unique innate ability. Only the most obvious being Sayaka's auto-Regen (more or less). Each mahou shoujo specializes in one weapon-- Homura are either bows or mines if going by episode 3; Sayaka are swords; and Mami are guns. But, they aren't their unique abilities that define them who they are as a mahou shoujo and separate themselves from every other magical girl.
How about Homura then?
If that's the case, my best bet is that Homura seems to be foresight or precognition. Case in point-- of the two or three times that Kyuubei seemingly forces his hand upon Madoka to make a wish to become a magical girl, Homura is there at the precise moment before she even makes the wish. Could her wish be that she wanted to see the future? This goes back to the whole "time loop" theory I saw several times popped up here in these Madoka threads. Homura knows what will happen, and my guess is that the beginning of episode one is the one and last time that she'll probably be unable to stop Madoka from suffering the same fate as other magical girls that have died. Homura already has seen countless number of girls die doing this, and has made every effort she can to stop others from making the same... mistake.
This then comes up with another question: Why Madoka? Why is her attention solely focused on Madoka?
Depending on the fansub group who's subbing episode 5, she even apologizes for not paying attention on Sayaka telling me she has the majority of her attention devoted to Madoka.
I know it sounds crazy but it just hit me when I saw episode 5 again. Episode 3 is definitely not the last time we will see Mami again if my theory proves true if going by the contract-wish system in this anime so far.
Very valid point. Of course, its pretty obvious we will see Mami again. They wouldn't just throw away such a perfect character like that , and it was so early in the series .
BaKaBaKaOtaKu
2011-02-09, 07:20
can't wait for next ep!!! XDD
Mawwrr hints to watch out! XD
KaneDragon
2011-02-09, 16:57
Very valid point. Of course, its pretty obvious we will see Mami again. They wouldn't just throw away such a perfect character like that , and it was so early in the series .
She lives on, in the opening. :heh:
Such a stylish power, too... Withstood loneliness to create many guns, yet, those hands will never hold anything. :(
applejuice
2011-02-09, 17:23
Very valid point. Of course, its pretty obvious we will see Mami again. They wouldn't just throw away such a perfect character like that , and it was so early in the series .
That's in your dream.
Knowing Urobuchi, (as I always say) it's better for Mami to stay death or she will be granted even disgusting hell.
It seems that there is another hidden clause in the wish: you can't do any action that contradicts (either the spirit or the letter of) your wish. If you wish for a crippled someone to get better, you can't do action that harm him or her even if he or she is an asshole. Which is why Mami warned Sayaka against wishing for others. You can't control other people, at least not entirely. Similarly, Mami wished to live, live, and live. This is why she can't be melancholic, ever, even if catharsis would have been for the better of her psyche.
As for Homerun, it seems that in the previous world she wished for Madoka to be spared of the fate of a magical girl. So anything that bare even the smallest hint of the existence of magical girls to Madoka, _Homura_ can't do. Note that this applies to Homura and Homura only, nothing prevents Kyubey from offering the exaltation to Madoka or Mami to explain the things about MGs, partially or entirely, to Madoka. Of course, by the rule, Kyubey can't suggest what Madoka should wish for, but he definitely can arrange for situation where a wish would be appropriate. And boy, sure he has a lot of cards up his furry sleeves. Since Madoka is potentially much more powerful than other MGs, he doesn't care if Sayaka or Kyouko is going to be killed in his scheme. They are his pawns.
On Homura's side, she had the chance to kill Kyubey (and probably Mami too) _before_ the creepy critter get the chance to meet Madoka in person. But she failed at that. Now she can't kill Kyubey without antagonizing Madoka (and Sayaka), for the little devil presented itself as an ally to them. On the other hand, now that Kyubey and Mami divulged the information about MGs, nothing prevent Homura from _expanding_ the existing information to Madoka, as long as she doesn't drop a new basic information. she hopes that Madoka will be mentally scarred enough to never consider becoming an MG.
Crapola, now i imagine Homura applying flute to Madoka's- *is nearly banned for divulging information about KnM*
TheDarkness
2011-02-09, 19:12
That's in your dream.
Knowing Urobuchi, (as I always say) it's better for Mami to stay death or she will be granted even disgusting hell.
I personally think that we will see Mami again. She is still in the opening theme and in the official artwork. I doubt she would just be thrown out after 3 episodes. In my opinion, I believe that Madoka is going to become an MG so that she can wish for Mami to return.
Triple_R
2011-02-09, 19:29
I personally think that we will see Mami again. She is still in the opening theme and in the official artwork. I doubt she would just be thrown out after 3 episodes. In my opinion, I believe that Madoka is going to become an MG so that she can wish for Mami to return.
Mami wouldn't be the first major character to die early on in a major anime's run. In fact, she wouldn't even be the most famous to do so. That would probably be this guy (http://gurrenlagann.wikia.com/wiki/Kamina) (warning: don't click on that unless you're prepared to be spoiled on a major plot event in a prominent mecha anime from a few years back).
That guy never came back. Well, not in a clear-cut "it's not a dream" way, anyway...
Here's a key, though - Madoka Magica might get a new, or slightly altered, OP for Episodes 7 on (I'm just saying this based on precedent throughout anime as a whole). If that happens, look for Mami in it. If she's not there, she's almost certainly not coming back. If she is there, then I'm with you, lol.
Myssa Rei
2011-02-09, 19:55
*snips*
While I'm one of those who want Mami to come back as well, Gen Urobuchi has gone on to mention relatively recently on his Twitter that, had Madoka been greenlit 26 episodes instead of the 12 it had now, we WOULD be seeing Mami again... Or lookalikes anyway, to mess with Madoka's mind (he mentioned a waitress at a cafe, or a lifeguard at the beach as examples). So, don't trust the current OP.
As for this episode, I've already said my thoughts about it elsewhere. I'm looking forward to the one after this more, if only so we could see how Homura diffuses the situation between Kyoko and Sakuya.
Dr. Casey
2011-02-09, 20:16
While I'm one of those who want Mami to come back as well, Gen Urobuchi has gone on to mention relatively recently on his Twitter that, had Madoka been greenlit 26 episodes instead of the 12 it had now
Wait... did Urobuchi intend for Madoka to be 26 episodes, but it was for some reason cut down to 12? That's not too far from what happened with Angel Beats, except I think we're losing more here since I'm enjoying Madoka far more than I did Angel Beats (Though that show ruled also).
Myssa Rei
2011-02-09, 20:40
Wait... did Urobuchi intend for Madoka to be 26 episodes, but it was for some reason cut down to 12? That's not too far from what happened with Angel Beats, except I think we're losing more here since I'm enjoying Madoka far more than I did Angel Beats (Though that show ruled also).
Not really. He replied to a tweet asking whether Mami would come back, and his reply started with 'If we had more episodes...' which I THINK alludes to the old-style 26-episode runs. So, no, 13 episodes was all that's ever been greenlit for Madoka, instead of being cut down from a longer episode run.
Dr. Casey
2011-02-09, 20:44
Ah, I see. Good to hear. I do miss the standard series length being 26 episodes, but if it was planned to be 13 from the start that's fine. At least we have eight more episodes of the second best anime ever (Second only to School Days, which Triple still needs to watch and blog about down at the Rabbit Hole).
applejuice
2011-02-09, 21:37
While I'm one of those who want Mami to come back as well, Gen Urobuchi has gone on to mention relatively recently on his Twitter that, had Madoka been greenlit 26 episodes instead of the 12 it had now, we WOULD be seeing Mami again... Or lookalikes anyway, to mess with Madoka's mind (he mentioned a waitress at a cafe, or a lifeguard at the beach as examples). So, don't trust the current OP.
Urobuchi was just messing with people. What he actually said was more of... (a bit of distortion)
"lol if this anime was 2-cour series instead of one, we could've had more Mami moments... llike beach scene... exciting.... LOL SORRY I LIED LOLOL (THAT WON'T HAPPEN LOLOL)"
This guy has absolutely no guilty of killing her. Duh
i think not telling sayaka about kyoko IS a big point aginst QB. and a big disservice to sayaka. Knowledge is power.
however you might justify that telling her MIGHT make things worse. those are just speculations, i can just as easily speculate a number of possible alternatives that sayaka could have done with the knowledge that would have mabe a better result than both of them clashing.
of course she could HAVE MADE a wrong action regardless, like as someone keeps on using as example ( and this is NOT the only possibility) she would SUDDENLY get out of her way to track this other girl MG and ATTACK her. knowing full well she just got her powers and the other would almost certainly be more experienced than her. well she might be hard headed but i dont see her as particualrly that dumb.
well for me its pointless to argue the merit of the action , without the accompanying context, surroundings.
best for QB in preventing the clash would have been
1) tell kyoko not only that there is another STRANGE MG ( Homura) that might intervene. and like another poster said : there might possibly even be another STRONGER MG that might intervene against her if she insists on going against the newbie sayaka. QB doesn't have to tell kyoko about madoka at all, thereby not putting any risk that kyoko would also go against madokoa.
2) tell sakaya about kyoko, and particualry kyoko's quirk and intent BUT ALSO warn her against fighting (which of course i think kyoko would not do as opposed to others... but just in case) AND explain why kyoko is doing so...explaining about grief seeds, gems withces and all
wow this would actually have been a good chance for him to explain the REAL DEAL and true workings of the MG world/system.
but of course QB didn't do any of the above... why? well hopefully the next few episodes will explain
P.S. oh a lot of replies from my previous post
i never said kyoko is "EVIL" per se, but rather her actions at that point when she let the familiar go knowing full well it will harm others IS EVIL... well you know MG and all she's still a kid ( just like sayaka, and madoka ) might be she's not yet fully morally matured and stuff... ^^ hmm homura might be the most matured in terms of acting for her morals, ideals.
"lol if this anime was 2-cour series instead of one, we could've had more Mami moments... llike beach scene... exciting.... LOL SORRY I LIED LOLOL (THAT WON'T HAPPEN LOLOL)"
This guy has absolutely no guilty of killing her. DuhA little off-topic but isn't he the same guy behind fate/zero? Is Madoka a taste of (worse) things to come? :heh:
(don't mean worse in a bad way, currently I kind of like his ballsy style)
A little off-topic but isn't he the same guy behind fate/zero? Is Madoka a taste of (worse) things to come? :heh:
(don't mean worse in a bad way, currently I kind of like his ballsy style)
Yes, he is. From what I heard, Fate/Zero is waaaay "darker".
Yes, he is. From what I heard, Fate/Zero is waaaay "darker".
That it is. Regarding F/Z I really need an announcement date for when the anime starts, so I can start preparing to get mindf*cked less.:heh: Madoka is a good start so I can get used to it.
MrSandman
2011-03-24, 22:59
Sandman here, [insert witty phrase/meme/quote] 2 cents!
Kyoko, what can I say.........I get the sneaking suspicion she's in it more for the grief seeds then to actually help people. :p But I can respect a girl who knows the best times for snackage. Seeing her makes me wonder what the qualifications are for becoming a Puella magi? As long as there young girls with emtional stress of some kind it all seems fair game to Kyubey no matter how lacking in morals they are. :heh:
More and more I get the feeling that Homura is doing to be one of, if not the, deciding factor in the end. Not even Kyubey seems to know enough about her to assume what she'll do. Honestly if Madoka doesn't do something important soon I'm gonna start questioning why this series wasn't named Homura Magica.......on second thought maybe it's because her name rolled better with magica. :heh:
Homura, honestly.......say something positive.....just once. Your starting to make me depressed. When an emotionally sensitive girl asks you to help her friend, you don't basically answer with "she's already dead, Sorry". But then again Homura being blunt is one of her greater defining characteristic so far. Thankfully though she good on her enterances and saves madoka from living up to the title of the anime again.
On a side note.......where do I go to get people in orange and white jumpsuits to crash through my window every morning with health drinks that'll probibly destoy my liver?
Moooorrrning rescue!!!
Sidenote to Mrsandman
If you're planning on watching episode 6 soon,watch out,both GG and nutbladder mistranslated parts of that episode and it lead to quite a bit of confusion at the time,Yesy are the only ones that got it right.
MrSandman
2011-03-24, 23:22
Sidenote to Mrsandman
If you're planning on watching episode 6 soon,watch out,both GG and nutbladder mistranslated parts of that episode and it lead to quite a bit of confusion at the time,Yesy are the only ones that got it right.
Nawww....It couldn't be that bad could it? *turns on episode*
Madoka: What happen?
Homura: Someone set us up the bomb
Sayaka: What you say!
Kyubey: How are you gentlemen!
Madoka: What you say!
Kyubey: All your magic girls are belonging to me.
Sayaka: For great justice, launch every zig!
excellent episode..
i see people are antsy about why madoka doesnt convert quicker...
personally, its about the journey and the WHY that is the most interesting for conversion. watching her go through the despair of a life-changing decision is what keeps the character development very high.
kyuubey is one interesting animal..manipulative under a cute guise.
LOVE THIS SERIES!
Kaioshin Sama
2011-08-03, 20:02
Bit of a Sayaka based episode here, which I've been waiting for ever since they first introduced her subplot. As expected she used her wish to help heal her friend and she also made a particular point whether intended or not that raises some questions. Why exactly is it that there is a limit of only one magical girl per area? She's probably right, if she were able to fight alongside Mami she'd probably still be here right now. It's almost like the system is set up to screw people over like Mami said and keep the revolving door of magical girls going since the odds are progressively more and more stacked against them.
Also sassy fang MG shows up again for a little bit and her character comes off yet again as kind of arrogant. I'm looking to see her put her money where her mouth is much like Akemi did in episode 03 instead of just being all bluster and bullying complete rookies like Sayaka who she frankly doesn't seem all that much more skilled then. There's also a dialogue between Madoka and Akemi that I think serves to nicely show their contrasting views on what it means to be a magical girl. Madoka uses the example of Sayaka to show how she admires strong courageous people with big hearts, but Akemi shoots her down by saying that reckless courage and overly selfless tendencies are what gets people like Mami killed. Somehow I think both of them are in the right as well as in the wrong, but Akemi is morseo in terms of both extremes. I think it's gotta be a blend of courage and the willingness to protect something with the reservation to know when you are in over your head. Akemi demonstrated that quite nicely in how she chose to fight snowman face monster in episode 03 when instead of charging in thinking the prey was easy like Mami, she let the thing attack a bit while dodging until she saw an opening where she could dispatch it. However, I also think Akemi's way of thinking is a little too cynical and has no way of solving anything. Just giving up on Sayaka and labelling her for dead solves absolutely nothing whatsoever. Perhaps Akemi and Madoka need to act as a tempering for each others philosophies in order to find a solution to the witch problem.
I definitely don't agree with sassy fang girl's philosophy of letting people get taken by the witches so she can then hunt them. Madoka makes perfect sense to me? Why would you even think of doing something like that unless you're a total psycopath like this girl comes across as? The magical girl doesn't seem much better than the witch in this case. In fact she comes off as worse since the witches just seem to be acting on instinct and their own biological nature whereas it's very much in the power of the magical girls to conciously choose how they want to put their power to use.
Anyway, I had to laugh at how Sayaka basically started the fight off by throwing swords at a children's drawing. This show never ceases to astound and blast completely through my suspension of disbelief when it comes to the witch designs. Sayaka's fighting style was really cool, but again what is she even supposed to have been trying to fight?
Speaking of designs, I kind of have to bring this up at this point....is it just me or does the storyboarder for this show seem to have a thing for showing off the girls legs. Many scenes in this show seem to have at least one shot that lingers on a girls legs (they'll be the only thing in the frame most of the time and if not they'll be right dead in the centre of the shot) doing something, to the point where I can now tell anybody exactly what type of leggings each particular girl wears. Guess it's this shows style of having light fanservice.
Triple_R
2011-08-03, 20:41
Another excellent episode review, Kaioshin. It's great to read your takes on these episodes.
Your take on the philosophical conflicts presented in this episode is very close (if not identical) to my own, and I find them refreshing given that not many people shared my views there back when this was watched "live" by a lot of us.
I would also say that my assessments of the key characters in this anime, after I first watched Episode 5 several months back, was very close to what yours is now.
To address one particular point you raised that's totally new (to the best of my knowledge), and is a keen observation:
Speaking of designs, I kind of have to bring this up at this point....is it just me or does the storyboarder for this show seem to have a thing for showing off the girls legs. Many scenes in this show seem to have at least one shot that lingers on a girls legs (they'll be the only thing in the frame most of the time and if not they'll be right dead in the centre of the shot) doing something, to the point where I can now tell anybody exactly what type of leggings each particular girl wears. Guess it's this shows style of having light fanservice.
Good pickup. And yeah, perhaps this was the show's way of having light fanservice. I will admit that it had a slightly arousing effect on me two or three times. :heh:
Archon_Wing
2011-08-03, 21:23
Because getting grief seeds requires the defeating of witches, a dangerous task, conflicts can easily arise if more than one PM wants the seed. It's possible that they could share, but some would rather look out for their interests first; it's at this point that we realize these magi are not the best of people and some have completely tossed away stuff like morality.
And yes, it's a pretty rigged system. Almost feels like a pyramid scheme doesn't it? :p
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