Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

Also, remember that her skills being magic is just as unconfirmed as them being cyborg skills.

True, the only official info we have about Isis are data about her magic-style and equipement, and talking about that i rember that Isis NEXT design says that her Armor Jacket can raise her already impressive physical prowess.

[Keroko]

True, the only official info we have about Isis are data about her magic-style and equipement, and talking about that i rember that Isis NEXT design says that her Armor Jacket can raise her already impressive physical prowess.

Wait, Force NEXT confirms her skills as magical? That changes things. My reasoning relied on her skills being undefined, but is her skills are confirmed magical then that becomes the default explanation until we are shown otherwise.

[Akiyoshi]

Not exactly, while it's true she uses magic to perform her perfume-based attacks it's also revealed that both her armour and device use alternate energy source(on this case some sort of "combustible battery") in order to be able to work even during instances of magic cancellation, the text is ambiguous but lampshades the fact that Isis is pretty strong on her own and that her Armor Jacket only aplifies her already impressive physique.

[Justin_Brett]

This is why having All There In The Manual stuff for basic abilities kind of sucks from a story standpoint.

her already impressive physical prowess.

Hm. That an accurate translation, Aki?

[Akiyoshi]

Needs to re-check, it was quite some time by now, i will confirnm/deny when i re-read the FORCE NEXt of Isis xDU

[Arcc]

I know, i know, it's just that it sounds more catchy than jobberday or stompday.

Dude. "Jobberwolky" is a most excellent nickname.

[00-Raiser]

Still not apt. The Wolkenritter only lose sometimes, not all the time.

[Akiyoshi]

Dude. "Jobberwolky" is a most excellent nickname.

Alice in Wonderland reference xD?

[Arcc]

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jobberwolk, my Cypha!
The flames that scorch, the blades that slice!
Beware the Azure Book, and shun
The frumious falling ice!"

She took her vorpal divider in hand:
Long time the manxome foe she sought --
So rested she by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought she stood,
The Jobberwolk, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And laid the law down as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
She left it dead, and with its head
She went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jobberwolk?
Come to my arms, my beamish Cy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
Curren chortled diabolical-ly.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

. . . . . . . . .

[Akiyoshi]

Oh dear lord...

"Cypha in Wonderland"

Now i'm scared o_O!

[Arcc]

Eh, the whole "let's portray Alice as Lizzie Borden on a bad acid trip" thing has been done to death.

Edit: Page claim for Cypha's adorable cutesy side that likes kittens and cake!

[Justin_Brett]

Her being in the Disney version is way funnier, anyway.

[Akiyoshi]

Ok, a mental image of Cypha playing cricket against Hayate using pink flamingos as cricket hammers just crossed my mind.

....weeeeeiiiiiiiiird....

[Arcc]

That's croquet, mate. Long o, French accent on the et.

And yes, that would be excellent. But honestly, Curren would be much more fun to watch.

[Mirron]

I kept giggling. :P It made me laugh so much.

[Koveras Alvane]

Edit: Page claim for Cypha's adorable cutesy side that likes kittens and cake!

I am gonna have trouble sleeping now. O__o

[itanshi1]

as longas i get to see rein zwei as a mouse

[Akiyoshi]

Chrno can be the Mad Hatter xD!

[Arcc]

I am gonna have trouble sleeping now. O__o

Footnote: *But never between meals.

[WarpObscura]

That's croquet, mate. Long o, French accent on the et.

And yes, that would be excellent. But honestly, Curren would be much more fun to watch.

Croquet? Is that not Vita's to handle?

[Akiyoshi]

Croquet? Is that not Vita's to handle?

Yeah, but Hayate definetly fits the role of the Queen of Hearts xD!

[aers]

Force Ch 16 fulltext (JP)

courtesy 2ch


CW社女性研究員「「ラプター」は外部からの命令と指示を受けて動く自律行動型です」「アイカメラのモニタ リングにより、当該機体の視界は常に司令部に送信」
　　　　　　　「リアルタイムで指示を下す事ができます」「もちろん複数機体の同時操作や人数ごとの部隊運 動のセッティングもできます」
　　　　　　　「内燃バッテリーによって通常稼働なら約40時間」「全機能開放状態の限界稼働も現時点で最 大25分まで継続可能」
　　　　　　　「各種の追加装備によって稼働時間の増加や拡張外部兵装へも対応可能です」
チンク「まさに至れりつくせりの万能兵器といったところですか」
CW社女性研究員「操作系統の調整、メンテナンスや機体・パーツの単価などまだ詰めなければならない点は多 いんですが…」
　　　　　　　「管理局への正式採用に向けて、弊社一同懸命に頑張っております」

スバル［フッケバインの拿捕と構成員の捕獲は失敗――部隊長を含む六課メンバー数名が中軽傷］［被害を受け た少年少女の救出は成功］
ウェンディ「そうッスか……」
特務六課捜査部　ウェンディ・ナカジマ執務官補
スバル［ウェンディ、そっちはどう?］
ウェンディ「CW(カレドヴルフ)の本社でギンガとチンク姉が現場視察と手がかりのお伺い中っス」「例の「 本と銃剣の二人組」の手がかりが出てくるといいんスけどね」
スバル［そうだね］
ウェンディ「トーマが無事なのは幸っスけど……大丈夫そうなんスか?」
スバル［今、フェイトさんが話を聞いてるよ］

管理局に保護されたトーマ、リリィ、アイシス。今運命の歯車が動き出す
魔法戦記リリカルなのはForce　Record16:「Re:act(リ　アクト)」

フェイト「トーマ・アヴェニール少年は遺跡探索旅行中に助けを求める声を検知」「助けを呼ぶ声に従って、厳 重警備をくぐりぬけて不法潜入したら女の子を発見」
　　　　「救助しようとした際に職員が発見」「危険物処理のプラズマジェットで焼き殺されかけて」「その際 にディバイダーが起動」
　　　　「ディバイダーによる攻撃で施設の職員全員を気絶させて」「現場から逃走後に犯罪者と して手配」
　　　　「家出旅行中のやんちゃ娘に助けられて管理局の手から逃走するうちに」「フッケバインに発見されて 拉致、構成員達にも接触――」
　　　　「その時にいろいろ聞いたようです、殺人・破壊衝動の事」「彼はゼロ因子保有者である こと」
はやて「直接会って話が聞きたいな、彼は話が聞ける状態?」
フェイト「今はメディカルチェック中です。エクリプスの症状は落ち着いてるけど再発したら大変 ですし」
はやて「そう……トーマの状況が落ち着いたら私に伝えて」「エクリプスの事、フッケバインの事……少しでも ちゃんと知っておきたい」
フェイト「ああ、でも……」
はやて「何か?」
なのは「何か、というかですね、お話中失礼します」「八神司令ご自身がまずご自愛いただかないと」「おなか 刺されてるんですよ?」
はやて「歩くロストロギアの異名は伊達とちゃう」「自己強化も自動治癒も効いてた、この程度なんでもないよ 」
なのは「フッケバインは高速巡航機動隊が追跡してますし、メンバーの消耗もあります」「主砲3台のうち2台 が破損、ヴォルフラムの動力も不安定」
　　　「一度帰投しないことには遭遇しても十分な戦闘は困難です」「と……分を越えた発言でした、申し訳あ りません、部隊長」
はやて「状況報告の範疇です、問題ありません」
なのは「ありがとうございます」にこにこ
はやて「この後はヴァイゼンの第2港に降りて補給します」
　　　「ギンガ達が予備のカノンと09X他、CW(カレドヴルフ)社の提供装備品を持ってきてくれますから ……高町一尉、チェックをお願いします」
　　　「執務官は引き続き捜査情報のまとめを」
なのは「はい」
フェイト「了解」
シャマル「うん……これでイケるはず」「トーマくん、リアクトオフを命令してみて」
トーマ「はい……」「――リアクト・オフ」
シャマル「そう!その調子!」「集中して――掌や両腕を開くイメージで!」
バシュ!!※トーマからリリィが出てくる。
シャマル「あら――」「うん…リアクトオフ、無事に完了」「EC感染の進行症状7.5%――第2発症レベル に至らず」
　　　　「うん――!やっぱりそう!!」「技術部と医療班の研究成果は間違ってない!」「リリィちゃんも疲 労と消耗で眠ってるだけね」
　　　　「リリィちゃんとトーマくん――ゼロ因子保有者とシュトロゼック」「二人が居てくれればエクリプス の秘密に迫る事ができる――」
　　　　「それにこの子――銀十字の書も」※銀十字の書に触ろうとするシャマル。
銀十字の書「危機――排除――」
トーマ「銀十字、やめな」
銀十字の書「………」
シャマル「トーマくん、これからも協力してくれる?」「二人を助けるため――エクリプスウィルスの謎を解い て悲しい事件が起きないようにするために」
トーマ「シャマル先生やマリーさんの話はスゥちゃんからよく聞いてました」「もちろん協力します――リリィ にも俺からお願いしてみます」
アイシス「…………」
トーマ「アイシス」「迷惑ついでにもうちょっと付き合ってくれないかな」「助けてもらったお礼も出来てない し……アイシスが居てくれると心強いし」
　　　「それにこんな途中で放り出されたら、アイシスは性格的に落ち着かないだろうし」
アイシス「ま、まあ、お礼はともかく…頼りにされちゃーアイシスさんも頑張らざるを得ないな! 」
シャマル「まあどっちにしろ、アイシスちゃんの身柄も特務六課で預かる事にはなるんだけどね」「ご実家にも 連絡済みで了承も頂いてるわ」
アイシス「ええっ!?」
シャマル「フッケバインに顔と武装を見られてるでしょう?」「再度の接触もあるかもしれない――しばらくは こっちで保護しますって連絡をしたんだけど」
　　　　「「家出中の不始末は本人につけさせたいのでいいように使ってやって欲しい」ってお父様とお兄様達 が」
　　　　「イーグレット・セキュリティ・サービス代表取締役一家の末っ子で長女――あなたは本日付で特務六 課の預かりになります」
トーマ「イーグレットSSって要人警護とかしてる?TVの特番とかで見たことあるけど……」
アイシス「そうなんだけど!」「素性知られたくないから、名字秘密にしてたんだけどなぁ～」
シャマル「トーマくんとリリィちゃんは保護対象だけど――」
トーマ「いえ――俺もリリィも保護してもらえるんなら見習いでもなんでも」「指示された範囲でできる事をし ます」
シャマル「うん――ありがとうトーマくん」
こそっふにゃ※スバルが壁に隠れて覗き見していてそれにトーマが反応、スバルが笑顔になる。
アイシス「リリィ、早く目を覚ますといいんだけどね」
トーマ「ああ、うん……」
シャマル「EC因子保有者とリアクターの関係は私たちもまだ把握しきれてないの」「ただ、なるべく距離を置 かずにいた方がいいのは確か」
　　　　「トーマくんはなるべくリリィちゃんのそばにいてあげてね」
トーマ「はい、それはもちろん」
アイシス「あたしもいっしょに居ていいんですよね?」「あたしがきっと二人を守ります!」
シャマル「アイシスちゃんをそういう配置にできるようにって、うちのエースがお願いしてくれて るわ」
アイシス「エース…?あの白いロングスカートの人ですか?」
シャマル「そっちじゃなくて『スゥちゃん』の方、アイシスちゃんはトーマくんを」「友達として真剣に思って くれてるから、いっしょにいさせてあげたいって」
アイシス「いいですよ!がんばりますよ!公僕見習いでも下っ端でもなんでやりますとも!」
ヴィータ「見習い起用ねぇ……また不安定な3人組ですね」
なのは「トーマは航空剣士としても、砲撃手としてもなかなか面白い素材だよ」
　　　「もちろんあの強さはエクリプスやゼロの力があってのものではあるだろうけど…」「そうでなくても鍛 えればかなりのとこまで行くかもしれない」
　　　「黒髪ちゃん…アイシスもかなり飛べる子だし、戦術爆破のスキルをチンクやウェンディが教えてあげれ ばまだまだ伸びる」
　　　「リリィはまだ未知数だけど、トーマに向かっていくあの勇気は買いだと思うし」「3人ともなかなか面 白そうな素材だよ、育ててみたい――きっと強くなる」
ヴィータ「そうやって楽しそうな素材に目ぇキラキラさせるのはいいんですがね」「連中がとんでもない危険物 である可能性については考慮してるんでしょうね」
なのは「それはうちが放っておいても同じ事じゃない?」「拘束しておくにしても相応の警備や安全対策が必要 になるんだし」
　　　「普通に過ごさせて犯罪者集団に持っていかれたりしたら大変な事になる」
　　　「エクリプス対策は特務六課とその関係機関が最前線、他に回すわけにはいかない案件だよ 」
ヴィータ「まあ、そうですけど」
なのは「それに万が一どうにもならなくなっても、手の内を知ってる方が戦いやすいしね」
ヴィータ「またさらっとおっかない事を」
なのは「いやいや「戦って取り戻す」って意味だよ?今回だってそうだったんだし!」「私達はなんのための魔 法使いなんだって話!」
　　　「傷つけずに制圧する力は守るためと救うためにあるんだから」
ヴィータ「あたしは騎士ですんで魔導師といっしょにはされたくねーです」
なのは「えー!?」
ヴィータ「まあ、私は隊長(あんた)が選んだメンバーをブッ叩きながら鍛えるだけですよ」「もういい?着替 えて作業に戻りたいんですが」
なのは「はい、ありがとうございます、ヴィータ二尉」「あんまり無理しないでね」
ヴィータ「お互い様です」『フッケバインの逃走と感染者とリアクターの保護』
　　　　『向こうの操舵手やトーマ達の話も含めれば「本と銃剣の二人組」が凶鳥(フッケバイン)じゃない可 能性も出てきた』
　　　　『こっちも万全を期すなら、態勢の建て直しや見直し、装備の増強も要るんだろうけど』『出動がかか ればそういうわけにもいかなくなる』
　　　　『状況がどう動くかわからない以上、捜査と緊急出動の待機状態を維持するしかない――』『現状の世 界の武力体制を揺るがす「魔導殺し」』
　　　　『感染形態もその本質も、まだわからないエクリプスウィルス』『切っ掛けさえあれば世界レベルの騒 乱や崩壊が起きる可能性もある――』

アルナージ「あ、そういえば!」「すっかり忘れてた、ぺったん胸んバッグといっしょに拾ったモノがあったん だっけ」「こいつだ!」
スティード「やっと思い出していただけましたか」「もはや動力(バッテリー)切れになるかと――」※テープ を巻かれているスティード。
カレン「それ、トーマ君の持ち物なんでしょ?」
アルナージ「そうらしいよ」
スティード「そうなります、写真撮影や情報通信などに便利な非戦闘用端末です」「できれば窓からでも捨てて いただければ、勝手に主人の所へ帰れるのですが――」
　　　　　「ああ、ありがとうございます、素敵なお嬢さん」※ステラがスティードに巻かれていたテープをは がした。
カレン「うーん、トーマ君に嫌われるような事はあんまりしたくないし、帰してあげたいとこなん だけどねぇ」
　　　「ま、次の仕事が終わったら解放してあげるよ、それまではうちにいて」
スティード「次の仕事……ですか?」
カレン「そう、第16管理世界「リベルタ」」「兵器開発メーカー『ヴァンデイン・コーポレーシ ョン』」
　　　「トーマ君が持ってる9型ディバイダー発祥の地で」「『シュトロゼック』生誕の地だよ」

To　be　conntinued　Record17

[Aaron008R]

Leoheart's blog already has most of the pics found for the latest chapter. I'm not going to link the blog here due to the said blogger's policy. The things to note of are...


Hayate seems to have taken the most damage after all. Vita is shown to be up and about but Hayate takes most of the chapter in bed and wrapped up in bandages. Nanoha and Fate visit to give a report and for a little scolding (in Nanoha's case). She returns to her office later in the chapter with two nurses assisting her + dextrose tube(?) attached to her arm.
Erio is not shown. Poor kid. :heh:
Hayate and Shamal(!) gets loads of screentime this chapter.
Touma manages to release the unison between him and Lily.
TSUNDERE ISIS.
Dere-dere stalker Subaru...?:twitch:
Yandere Isis?!:eek: (not sure, but she sure seems possessive of her new friends.:heh:)
Vita teasing Nanoha. Complete with the White Devil's funny faces!:D I knew I was right, Nanoha is still as cute as ever even now!:D
If people are wondering where Steed is, he's still in the possession of the Huckebein. His tentacles are knotted up at first but is later released when Curren has a talk with him.

[TheRainbowConnection]

dextrose tube
When you get hooked up to an IV, the IV fluids may have a little bit of sugar in it. The sugar they put in is dextrose. It's generally done if the patient isn't eating much (or at all) at the moment, i.e. prolonged nausea or gut immotility after a big surgery or, y'know, physical injury. :innocent:

[Koveras Alvane]

When you get hooked up to an IV, the IV fluids may have a little bit of sugar in it. The sugar they put in is dextrose. It's generally done if the patient isn't eating much (or at all) at the moment, i.e. prolonged nausea or gut immotility after a big surgery or, y'know, physical injury. :innocent:

We have those things in the office, only with concentrated caffeine... :uhoh:

Uh, anyway, the chapter. Is there still no glimpse of a certain pink-haired swordswoman? I mean, you'd think they could place Hayate in a neighboring ward or something...

Also, I wonder what Curren wants with Steed, of all Devices?

[Justin_Brett]

Well, Vita is Vita, so that's not much of a surprise.

And uh, nice knowing you, Steed.

[Rising Dragon]

Curren probably wants more information about Touma, so she's probably thinking she can get that information from Steed.

[Justin_Brett]

I hope it's something else, because that would be drawing attention to the question of why she didn't just take him there in the first place.

[Akiyoshi]

NOOOOO!!! STEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!! ...i hope our brave little camera manage to survive.

By the way ....finally! a chapter focused on the heroes side of things, lots of exposition apparently, Hardcore Commander Hayate keep leading her unit from a hospital bed, wonder what Vita is commenting. Lots of info, hope it get translated soon.

But the most interesting scene to me is Fate and some guy examining Bardiche while interacting with a scene where Vita is thinking on something. Hopefully this is the part when TSAB will say "screw the AEC, give 5th Gen upgrade to everyone!" that would be awesome!

[Arcc]

Oh dear. I think I'm liking Isis more and more. Gunning for second place on my charts? Forget that, she's there! But she's never gonna take Subaru down.

[Justin_Brett]

Uh, anyway, the chapter. Is there still no glimpse of a certain pink-haired swordswoman? I mean, you'd think they could place Hayate in a neighboring ward or something...

If the characters don't even bother mentioning Signum when they're fighting the people who almost killed her, you probably shouldn't expect that.

But I mean, hey, it's only been two years since we last saw her. Don't be impatient.

[TheRainbowConnection]

A Certain Pink-Haired Swordswoman?

I'd imagine Signum is in a proper hospital/ICU somewhere ashore. Apparently, Hayate is durable enough and Midchildan SCIENCE advanced enough that being impaled can be managed in an assault ship's sickbay. Maybe Hayate should be tanking instead of Signum. :uhoh:

I hope it's something else, because that would be drawing attention to the question of why she didn't just take him there in the first place.
The apologist in me says that you can explain it away by saying that:
1) Trying to take Touma means a direct confrontation with the TSAB, and that is not fun.
2) Having Touma on-board exposes the Huckebein to Divider Zero Eclipse all day, every day, and that is not fun.

Certainly, Steed is a lot easier to handle than Touma. But I doubt those were taken into consideration, since Curren appears to have sort of ~*plan*~.

[Keroko]

Steed's an excellent hostage for luring Thoma. Not nearly important enough to warrant a government response (he's just a tool after all) but important enough for Thoma to go after him.

Uh, anyway, the chapter. Is there still no glimpse of a certain pink-haired swordswoman? I mean, you'd think they could place Hayate in a neighboring ward or something...

I thought the amount of irrelevant scenes in Force was one of your main complaints?

[Akiyoshi]

I'd imagine Signum is in a proper hospital/ICU somewhere ashore. Apparently, Hayate is durable enough and Midchildan SCIENCE advanced enough that being impaled can be managed in an assault ship's sickbay. Maybe Hayate should be tanking instead of Signum. :uhoh:

Pretty plausible, after all they have the time to take Agito and Signum from her own pool of blood with an entire medical squad and that was at night so yeah, is very possible that they taked them to the hospital, scorted by Teana(which would explain her wonderfull abscense during this battle xDU).

Also if Signum ever manage to rise from bed before FORCE ends my guess is that it will be right before the end. Hayate's injuries are enough to left her in the need of directing actions from her hospital bed, and Vita didn't manage to fully recover from just a slash which means the cross-slashed and impaled Signum will probably take a lot more to awake, let alone reach fully recovering.

[Justin_Brett]

Well, if you're gonna hold something important to him hostage and get him kinda mad at you to begin with, that's not a whole lot different from taking him by force, isn't it? Either way he's still not inclined to want to have anything to do with you at first.

And like I've said, it seems like they should know leaving him with the Bureau isn't a good idea.

[Keroko]

Well, if you're gonna hold something important to him hostage and get him kinda mad at you to begin with, that's not a whole lot different from taking him by force, isn't it? Either way he's still not inclined to want to have anything to do with you at first.

Lure him in, then sweet-talk. It's happened often enough in fiction.

And like I've said, it seems like they should know leaving him with the Bureau isn't a good idea.

The Hucks seem utterly convinced the Bureau can't help him, why should they think this is a bad idea?

[Justin_Brett]

Well it's not like he was really himself at that moment, so someone properly charismatic could probably persuade him getting beaten up by them was for his own good. I mean, he was in the mood to thank all of them for pretty vague reasons.

And what if the Bureau somehow managed to get control of the extremely powerful artifact that can hurt them pretty badly, and then persuaded him to help them? Which seems to be what happened roughly five minutes after they left.

[Keroko]

"After they left" being the key word. They're convinced the Bureau can't help Thoma and that Thoma will inevitably abandon them and come for the Hucks. Nobody said they were right in thinking that, but that's what they believe.

[Justin_Brett]

But why bother risking it when you don't need to, is my question?

Unless she didn't know he has the book at that moment: just one infected probably wouldn't be much trouble for them.

[Keroko]

We went through the list of reasons before, no reason to go through it again.

[Justin_Brett]

Anything about them getting hurt is kind of a bad excuse. I'm just saying it's kind of lame to have a new villain do something a little illogical in their debut chapter. Anyway. I doubt they'll go with that hostage route, since Curren is apparently omniscient and knows he'll join them no matter what, so having her stack the odds in that regard would make her kind of a big liar.

[Keroko]

since Curren is apparently omniscient and knows he'll join them no matter what, so having her stack the odds in that regard would make her kind of a big liar.

... I am sincerely hoping you were joking here.

[Justin_Brett]

Yeah.

But she did state that before knowing he even had a Device, or anything about him at all, really.

[Arcc]

Curren's played up to be quite competent and intelligent, so she should have reason to be confident in herself and her plans. And I do hope she impresses.

I think Nanoha should totally have its own Vriska Serket-esque character. Someone so magnificently horrible, so incredibly brilliant with a dash of sexy yet casually sinister with a frothing glass of huge bitch, someone who you can hate so unbelievably much that you absolutely love her to death.

I mean, I really don't know that Curren can pull that off, and nobody remotely likeable can stay evil for long in this series, but I'd like to see that.

[Koveras Alvane]

Oh dear. I think I'm liking Isis more and more. Gunning for second place on my charts? Forget that, she's there! But she's never gonna take Subaru down.

My Liking Meter was maxed out on Isis for a long, long time now. :heh:

But I mean, hey, it's only been two years since we last saw her. Don't be impatient.

Sure, sure. :(

I'd imagine Signum is in a proper hospital/ICU somewhere ashore. Apparently, Hayate is durable enough and Midchildan SCIENCE advanced enough that being impaled can be managed in an assault ship's sickbay.

Yeah, that's what I figured after I posted that. ^^;

Maybe Hayate should be tanking instead of Signum. :uhoh:

Totally.

I thought the amount of irrelevant scenes in Force was one of your main complaints?

Moi? Nah, I have never complained about Force. The words "comments shitstorm" still mean something to me. :heh:

[Keroko]

Moi? Nah, I have never complained about Force. The words "comments shitstorm" still mean something to me. :heh:

Blagh, sorry. I seem to have a broken radar that brands ever post talking about Signum in some negative way as one of Aki's or Justin's posts.

Conditioning, I guess.

[Justin_Brett]

I've never really done that, or at least not to the degree that you should compare me to Aki, who has a signature celebrating the anniversary of her being 'outdated'.

And I'd disagree with her getting played up as intelligent, since until the end of last chapter she was acting like a five year old aside from the first panel she appeared in. I dunno why they thought that would be a good idea for a main villain.

[Arcc]

I haven't read any of the chapters that haven't been translated. What number is Japan even up to now?

[Justin_Brett]

Sixteen, this month.

The end of fifteen was when she pulled that rape face as an 'oh, she's actually meant to be scary' moment. Along with Stella puffing up her cheeks like Maya on the cover of Phoenix Wright, which, uh, yeah.

[00-Raiser]

Hayate seems to have taken the most damage after all. Vita is shown to be up and about but Hayate takes most of the chapter in bed and wrapped up in bandages.

Maybe not more damage, but Hayate is significantly more fragile than Vita is.

Uh, anyway, the chapter. Is there still no glimpse of a certain pink-haired swordswoman? I mean, you'd think they could place Hayate in a neighboring ward or something...

Signum was taken to a hospital. Hayate is in the med ward of her ship.

I like how she looks with her barrier jacket open like that.

Curren probably wants more information about Touma, so she's probably thinking she can get that information from Steed.

I bet she's more interested in the lab they rescued Lily from.

[Justin_Brett]

Oh shit, you're probably right.

[Akiyoshi]

I bet she's more interested in the lab they rescued Lily from.
Oh shit, you're probably right.

Good point, if that were the case it will bring down the theory that the scientist from Ch. 1 are the ones behind the Hucks's activities.

[Arcc]

I'm more with the theory that it's a secret Caledfwlch lab.

Caledfwlch seems like if left unchecked, it could develop into something like Cerberus (as we knew it pre-ME2). Right now it's an experimental R&D group with some very sketchy-looking projects and possibly shady dealings, but it's still officially sanctioned by somebody and in the military's employ. . . for now.

[Justin_Brett]

I sure hope they don't pull the 'maverick groups' card on their really evil actions to keep their leader remotely morally ambiguous like Cerberus, if so.

[Akiyoshi]

Which reminds me of the surprise i receive while watching the page with a Raptor walking for the first time, those things are HUGE(those drones can probably tower over Zafira and Deville), the common sized female scientist looks like a midget walking by it's side.

[Arcc]

I sure hope they don't pull the 'maverick groups' card on their really evil actions to keep their leader remotely morally ambiguous like Cerberus, if so.


I never personally understood how there could anything morally ambiguous about the Illusive Man being a psychotic evil bastard. The dude excuses himself with mafia logic- the easiest psychological trap to think your way out of ever. But it gets to be a pain when the writers somehow think it works.

I am with you 100% on this, Justin, but remember the genre we're in. I know you're not terribly happy with the writing in FORCE thus far, but you can at least know for sure that Nanoha is the straightforward heroine who would call bullshit on the Illusive man in less than ten seconds. Because the tenth second is the part where she blows up his space station.

[Justin_Brett]

Well, they do seem to be trying for a generally more ambiguous thing this season, at least with the Hucks. They could certainly do it better, but they're making the attempt.

...or at least nobody's really called any of them out in a meaningful way yet, so the story could say that's not the case in the future.

[Koveras Alvane]

Blagh, sorry. I seem to have a broken radar that brands ever post talking about Signum in some negative way as one of Aki's or Justin's posts.

Conditioning, I guess.

Stereotypes, stereotypes. %)

I like how she looks with her barrier jacket open like that.

Subtle fanservice is always best. ^^

I never personally understood how there could anything morally ambiguous about the Illusive Man being a psychotic evil bastard. The dude excuses himself with mafia logic- the easiest psychological trap to think your way out of ever. But it gets to be a pain when the writers somehow think it works.

It's not just the writers, obviously. :) And everyone has their pet peeve tropes...

Because the tenth second is the part where she blows up his space station.

...without needing any fancy overload codes. :D Ergo, Nanoha > Shepard.

[Keroko]

I never personally understood how there could anything morally ambiguous about the Illusive Man being a psychotic evil bastard. The dude excuses himself with mafia logic- the easiest psychological trap to think your way out of ever. But it gets to be a pain when the writers somehow think it works.

It's not just that the writers think it works, it actually works. Believe me I've lost count of the amount of people who think the Illusive Man is really a good guy and are both confused and outraged that he turned on you in ME3.

[Arcc]

Hmmm. Well, I guess I understand what that's about. A lot of people, when given a bad option and a slightly better alternative, seem incapable of thinking about other possibilities, with the occasional and usually inapplicable exception of Occam's.

When people like the Illusive Man talk about "making the hard choices," it means they're actually making the safe choices. People who say "at any cost" are less determined to take risks and take the difficult steps to win it all. What they don't get is that pragmatism and idealism aren't mutually exclusive- you actually need one to be effective at the other. To be good, you just need to be be good enough. If you see all the angles, and have enough irons in the fire, so to speak, you can bust an unbelievable number of impossible situations on your terms. I think I was the only person who went to see The Dark Knight and walked away painfully disappointed and depressed because I'd figured out how Batman could have saved both Dent and Rachel. He's supposed to be the genius Holmesian hero who's better at seeing all this than anybody.

Well, like I said, I get why they do it but to me it just looks so silly when people fall for that sort of manipulative fallacy. And I may be an idealist (partly because I've found it's a much tastier way to live than cynicism), but when I made that decision I made sure I didn't let anybody or anything else build my principles for me, lest they become putty in another's hands. I guess I was just raised weird. Dark Helmet was right about one thing- Why must good always be so dumb?

[Keroko]

Because if good is smart, the bad guys don't stand a chance.

[Koveras Alvane]

Why must good always be so dumb?

Law of Bruce: The smartness of a story is capped by the intelligence of its antagonist.

See it this way: the protagonist is the starting point, the antagonist is the ending one. The (geographical, social, intellectual) gap between them is where the story will naturally play out. That said, there is a way to circumvent it: good can be smarter than evil... if it plays an antagonistic role. But our literary tradition has a strong prejudice against that. ^^

[Akiyoshi]

So it's less a case of "Good is Dumb" and more like "Protagonist is Dumb"?

Well it make sense at some point but there are stories where this is better applied, in other words, stories that manage to give the impression that the antagonist is indeed very cunning and smart but also without make the heroes to look like a bunch of morons, that way it actually make the villain even cooler because they're able to outsmart a group of actually smart and capable people. Section Six is definetly not the case xDU.

[mielipuoli]

It's much easier to make a dumb hero than a smart villain, since you're limited by the abilities of the writer - can't write beyond your own abilities!

Naturally this makes me worry about the kind of people who do come up with truly brilliant villains...

[Akiyoshi]

Naturally this makes me worry about the kind of people who do come up with truly brilliant villains...

Beware the evilness of Tsugumi Ōba, writer of Death Note xD!(even "L" is kind of villanous sometimes o.O!)

[Justin_Brett]

Well if we're talking about Mass Effect, Paragon Shepard is a pretty smart guy, or at least level-headed enough to know why Renegade decisions might not work out in the long run.

Most Nanoha heroes are fairly intelligent, too.

[Akiyoshi]

Most Nanoha heroes are fairly intelligent, too.

I'll say skilled rather than intelligent.

While all them are capable and cunning fighters they tend to do some awfull descisions from time to time, also their logic is a bit weird sometimes, specially when a mid-season climatic battle is involved. On early seasons this was easier to digest because the plot itself is pretty simple: Nanoha fights against some conflicted people she wants to help but said people didn't want to talk and feel bad abot themselves. The plot can be resolved in five minutes if some of this nice-but-troubled people accept to have a talk with the heroes but that will deny us from epic battles and flashy powers so it's understandable.

It's when they decided to make things more elaborated and complicated where the logic started to contrast with the plot. The setting, the risks and the characters themselve matured but the writing stays mostly the same and while StrikerS have it's own very enjoyable moments it was also a very challenging series to my own logis and is very demanding of my willing suspension of disbelief to overcome various details. Again, it was easier in S1 and A's because the story isn't very complicated so we can still take for granted some foolish moves from the heroes and villains(admiteddly, the Wolkenritter aren't precisely the smartest villains of the universe xDU) an roll with that. From StrikerS onwards is supposed that they're now "mature" more deep and councsious of the risks around them and taking descicions that affect more people than just them and their opponents. But sometimes i felled that the efforts to make clear that "they're not kids anymore" are too obvious thus ending being a bit unconvincing. All in all, by this point the fan is already connected to the characters and thus more willing to wiothstand this kind of mistakes but sometimes, only sometimes, there are screwings so notorios that simply can't be overlooked that easily xDU.

[Koveras Alvane]

Naturally this makes me worry about the kind of people who do come up with truly brilliant villains...

Writing good villains doesn't mean you can be one. Just like playing a doctor on TV doesn't make you one IRL...

[itanshi1]

Curious, perhaps incorrect, comparison. Playing a doctor is not writing about a doctor. People write from experience and imagination, but the good writers (not counting the classic ones hopped up on LSD) are best known for the works they write within their realm of experience. Most writers say to write from experience. Now, no, you do not need to be evil, but studying the human mind helps, for sure.

[Koveras Alvane]

Curious, perhaps incorrect, comparison. Playing a doctor is not writing about a doctor. People write from experience and imagination, but the good writers (not counting the classic ones hopped up on LSD) are best known for the works they write within their realm of experience. Most writers say to write from experience. Now, no, you do not need to be evil, but studying the human mind helps, for sure.

I have both played (on stage) and written (on paper) villains before and the biggest difference I noticed between fiction and RL in that aspect is: in fiction, everything goes right for the villain right up to the ending; IRL, everyone screws everything up from day one. :heh: Therefore, I think that writing villains and being villain are two distinct sets of skills: one is about tweaking events to make them look realistic and epically dangerous, the other is about managing a perpetual crisis. ^^

[spawnofthejudge]

...the other is about managing a perpetual crisis. ^^That's leading, whether Good or Evil.

Page Claim for leaders. Like Hayate. :)

[Koveras Alvane]

Like Hayate. :)

...and Blazing Flame Generals! :uhoh:

[FlameSparkZ]

Regarding the Eclipse infection, I just thought of this but...when someone becomes infected, it probably obliterates their Linker Core, no? :uhoh:

It's not like I'm pointing out a flaw in the plot, but if they find a cure for it, Thoma (and every Huck?) will most likely become a normal human. :uhoh:

[Arcc]

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that would be the case?

[Akiyoshi]

I tought the linker core was an etereal "organ" as important as any other physical one, thus the complete removal of it will endanger the life of the affected. Still that's just the impression i get. There's any official info about it?

[Arcc]

We know that the Book of Darkness consuming Hayate's was what was paralyzing and killing her. We also know that "harvesting" linker cores as the Wolkies did invariably resulted in the deaths of the subjects, if drained completely.

And if the bit about obliterating linker cores has something to do with anti-magic, I'm going to go smash my head against a rock.

[FlameSparkZ]

And if the bit about obliterating linker cores has something to do with anti-magic, I'm going to go smash my head against a rock.
Yes, that might be it.

The Eclipse and Divider's effect breaks magical links, and the Linker Core is a mass of concentrated magic, not to mention that the body itself has magic flowing through it...and Thoma went through a pretty high fever when the infection spread after the church incident.
That was most likely his body changing to the next stage of the infection.

[Akiyoshi]

Ok, now that will be a big trouble if the Eclipse Virus somehow "replace" the linker core completely, a full cure probably will be impossible under those condition, the Eclipse infected probably will need to remain in tratement for life in order to live as normal as possible.

[Arcc]

Okay, okay. I said I'd never explain this again at least twice, but "anti-magic" is a type of magic. The name is misleading. It's not usually a practical method of defense for mages for obvious reasons, but the eclipse are clearly an exception. Just because they cancel magic used against them and other peoples' magic defenses does not mean they are not using magic themselves.

Sorry if I seem frustrated, mate. It's been a harsh week.

[Akiyoshi]

An that arises some interestion questioning of the suppossed Eclipse Driver's magic usage. All of the Hucks NEXT design use the word "energy" rahter than "mana" or "magic" when refering to one of the Hucks special powers(in the case of Cypha it mentions that her swords can shoot "energy beams"). Thus leaving in the air the possibility of the Hucks utilizing another source of energy different from magic(like mutants i guess).

[Mirron]

I don't think I've ever heard what Nanoha uses being referred to as magic beams, or at least I wouldn't be surprised if they've been called energy beams before. But what the Eclipse people use looks to be magic in pretty much every way it can be magic. It just seems like it's magic designed to defeat magic. Might seem odd, but makes sense to me.

[Akiyoshi]

I don't think I've ever heard what Nanoha uses being referred to as magic beams, or at least I wouldn't be surprised if they've been called energy beams before. But what the Eclipse people use looks to be magic in pretty much every way it can be magic. It just seems like it's magic designed to defeat magic. Might seem odd, but makes sense to me.

So, what happens if an Eclipse Driver fights another Eclipse Driver?

[Arcc]

So, what happens if an Eclipse Driver fights another Eclipse Driver?

I think you have hit upon the crux of Thoma's involvement.

[FlameSparkZ]

An that arises some interestion questioning of the suppossed Eclipse Driver's magic usage. All of the Hucks NEXT design use the word "energy" rahter than "mana" or "magic" when refering to one of the Hucks special powers(in the case of Cypha it mentions that her swords can shoot "energy beams"). Thus leaving in the air the possibility of the Hucks utilizing another source of energy different from magic(like mutants i guess).
Yes, let's not forget that before Force, StrikerS introduced a different source of energy (used by the Combat Cyborgs) that can replicate the same effects as magic.

I wouldn't be surprised if "Eclipse energy" is similar to that.

[Akiyoshi]

If it's true that they use magic and it ends also true that they can cancel magic attacks and defenses that will explain a couple of things like the "ammo" used during Tohma and Veyron's battle or the very prominent blades on the Dividers, as also why Veyron use an aditional weapon(his "Claw Grab") who use fuels to make combustion attacks(like "Napalm Fang). In case of confronting another Eclipse Driver or other source of Anti-Magic they have alternate weaponary or defensive gear to not be left completely helpless against said enemy.

[Mirron]

The effects cancel each other out so it's just the same as a mage vs. a mage? I don't know, either that or the one with the higher grade of anti-magic succeeds? I suppose we'll find out when Thoma fights one of them what happens.

[Akiyoshi]

Yes, let's not forget that before Force, StrikerS introduced a different source of energy (used by the Combat Cyborgs) that can replicate the same effects as magic.

I wouldn't be surprised if "Eclipse energy" is similar to that.

Yup, that's true, the energy used by the Cyborgs along with their Inherent Skills are completely unaffected by AMF thus cannot be considered "magic"(proven by Subaru who is able to use her cyborg powers inside the Craddle and under an AMF field powerfull enough to shut down HAYATE). My above theory can be defied if the Hucks end up being in a similar situation in relation to their powers.

The effects cancel each other out so it's just the same as a mage vs. a mage? I don't know, either that or the one with the higher grade of anti-magic succeeds? I suppose we'll find out when Thoma fights one of them what happens.

So they cancel the cancelation effect? I'm confused xDU

In regards of Tohma, the boy have a slight advantage against any Huckebein not named Curren, he's holding a book AND a Strosek reactor with him and posses an AoE attack powerfull enough that even surpasses Anti-Magic and rose slightly into Anti-Life territory(and thus being able to cancel anything from magic, to electronics, to cardiac health, to eclipse drivers). I wonder if Curren holds a similar power or have the key to survive that.

[Mirron]

Yes, so essentially neither of the anti-magic effects really work, so it's just a straight-up battle in all other accounts. That'd be what I guess happens, at least. Not like I have anything to compare it to though, just makes sense to me.

[FlameSparkZ]

Yup, that's true, the energy used by the Cyborgs along with their Inherent Skills are completely unaffected by AMF thus cannot be considered "magic"(proven by Subaru who is able to use her cyborg powers inside the Craddle and under an AMF field powerfull enough to shut down HAYATE). My above theory can be defied if the Hucks end up being in a similar situation in relation to their powers.
Probably, the reason why the use the AEC weapons, is because AMF doesn't work on them...could be wrong though :uhoh:

In regards of Tohma, the boy have a slight advantage against any Huckebein not named Curren, he's holding a book AND a Strosek reactor with him and posses an AoE attack powerfull enough that even surpasses Anti-Magic and rose slightly into Anti-Life territory(and thus being able to cancel anything from magic, to electronics, to cardiac health, to eclipse drivers). I wonder if Curren holds a similar power or have the key to survive that.
Yeah, Divide Zero "Eclipse"...Everyone was seriously affected by it and some even went into cardiac arrest (like Fate and Lucino), but those infected didn't.
This could be coincidence, or that those infected have some resistance against the Zero Effect.

[Akiyoshi]

Still the Hucks end up affected somewhat, they're severely weakened under the effects of it and, as Cypha points out, even their "rections" got cancelled, Veyron and Stella fainted and the rest end up in the ground. Also the menace of shooting it again was enough to nerve Fortis and scare Stella. So yheah it can be a very powerfull weapon against them(with the little inconvenience that it can provoke countless deaths if used carelessly).

[Keroko]

We know that the Book of Darkness consuming Hayate's was what was paralyzing and killing her. We also know that "harvesting" linker cores as the Wolkies did invariably resulted in the deaths of the subjects, if drained completely.

And if the bit about obliterating linker cores has something to do with anti-magic, I'm going to go smash my head against a rock.

Actually, we don't know if draining linker cores completely results in death. And considering there are plenty of people without linker cores, that it would lead to death would rather surprise me. Extremely draining? Sure. Death? Don't think so.

And whether it destroys the linker core... considering we've seen Thoma appearing with a Belkan magic circle on several official art now, I doubt it does.

[00-Raiser]

I think total linker core drainage does result in death which is why the Wolkenritter only partially drained linker cores because they didn't want to kill for Hayate's sake.

[Keroko]

Then how come there's plenty of people living happy lives without linker cores? Clearly these things aren't essential to live, otherwise everyone would have them. But since there are plenty of people unable to use magic, there are plenty people who don't have them.

Not to mention that being in AMF should have been at least highly uncomfortable for a mage, and merely being touched by an Eclipse infected would have been very, very bad.

[Akiyoshi]

Is there any official information about people without linker cores? I tought everyone have linker cores it's just that some are very small or underdeveloped to use mana and forcing them will only damage the people in question.

[Keroko]

Concrete? No. There was a part in A's where the TSAB were talking about the beasties the Wolkies were hunting and mentioning them 'having linker cores' which suggests a possible absence.

[Akiyoshi]

It's like unused organs, things that in the past served some purpouse but evolution makes those unusable but still some of them remain into humans constitution. It was mentioned that mages are scarce on Earth but also tend to be usually pretty powerfull, a theory can be that because Humans don't developed their usage of mana in large numbers the Linker Core weakened over the ages and now only a few on each generation manage to have healthy, developable linker cores and even that won't guarantee that they will be mages.

Look at Nanoha for example, she has a perfectly capable and healty linker core but if it wasn't for Yuuno she probably never discovered magic and will lived as a perfectly normal earthling woman(ninja stuff aside XD).

[Keroko]

That explanation works for earth, but it does raise the question why a culture who has always had magic as a central piece of their culture as far as recorded history goes have the same problem. Mid Childa has always used magic, yet even there many people are born without the ability to use magic.

[Akiyoshi]

I don't have any official explanation but we can take the example of Squibs from Harry Potter's lore. They're basically sons of magic user who can't use magic themselves, i wonder why but it probably be a possibility that it is a similar case. Also remember that Mid-Childa is actually a very mutlicultural society conformed with people from countries and planets all across the galaxy/dimensions some have so much time there that they didn't even remember well their ethnical heritage(like the Nakajima family who are clearly Japanese people at least from Genya's part but Subaru didn't know much about that and mentions that while she's councsious of her earthling roots she never actually visited Earth until that StrikerS Sound Stage where RF6 goes to a mission on Uminari City).

[Keroko]

Looks like due to the lack of data on this it's pretty much always going to be a battle of I think's.

[FlameSparkZ]

Looks like due to the lack of data on this it's pretty much always going to be a battle of I think's.
Blame Tsuzuki, he's too busy making mecha references to solidify the setting :heh:

[Akiyoshi]

We need the essential book of Nanoha that contains expanded data çon all this sort of stuff, the NEXT designs are somewhat helpfull but there's too much information missing and as a result we can only start to speculate on the missing details xDU.

[Arkeus]

That explanation works for earth, but it does raise the question why a culture who has always had magic as a central piece of their culture as far as recorded history goes have the same problem. Mid Childa has always used magic, yet even there many people are born without the ability to use magic.

yeah, huh, we have no idea on that.

We know some people are considered non-mage, but we don't know what that entails at all.

Also, keep in mind that they were talking about beasts that have strong linker core, not humans, in A's.

[Mirron]

Pretty sure having a Linker Core is not something everyone has. Some do, perhaps even half the population of Midchilda or some high number like that, but not everyone. So the only question is whether or not removing a Linker Core would kill a mage or not. Even if it's not essential for everyone, it may be essential for mages to live. But I'm decently sure you can live if it's removed, it's just a really painful process in general.

[Koveras Alvane]

Is there any official information about people without linker cores? I tought everyone have linker cores it's just that some are very small or underdeveloped to use mana and forcing them will only damage the people in question.

I am pretty sure it was said somewhere that regular humans don't have Linker Cores, which is why many people aren't mages even on the Mid. Just forgot where...

[Arcc]

I think it's simple enough to put in one sentence: Everybody has linker cores, and some people have the capacity and potential to become mages while a lot aren't even worth a couple lines in the book.

[FlameSparkZ]

yeah, huh, we have no idea on that.

We know some people are considered non-mage, but we don't know what that entails at all.

Also, keep in mind that they were talking about beasts that have strong linker core, not humans, in A's.
Not really, the linker cores of the monsters in A's were huge (compared to those seen in humans), but of low quality. So I guess the linker core's size is proportional to the being it's in...but that doesn't mean the amount of magic is the same.

I just remembered the barrier that was set up at the beginning of A's, the one that made normal people "disappear" leaving only Nanoha and Vita.
And let's not forget the fight with BoD/Reinforce where Suzuka and Arisa also remained :uhoh:
It caused a lot of speculation (and artwork) of whether they could use magic or not.

I think it's simple enough to put in one sentence: Everybody has linker cores, and some people have the capacity and potential to become mages while a lot aren't even worth a couple lines in the book.
Yeah, I like to think that way. At least it feels fair :heh:

[Koveras Alvane]

Not really, the linker cores of the monsters in A's were huge (compared to those seen in humans), but of low quality. So I guess the linker core's size is proportional to the being it's in...but that doesn't mean the amount of magic is the same.

On the other hand, an adult human body is much better at processing mana than a child's, as stated in chapter 1 or 2 of ViVid. It seems that body size or age do matter, after all. However, not as much as the species, I guess...

[Arkeus]

Not really, the linker cores of the monsters in A's were huge (compared to those seen in humans), but of low quality. So I guess the linker core's size is proportional to the being it's in...but that doesn't mean the amount of magic is the same. i meant stronger linker core than normal animals.

[Keroko]

Beasts or humans, if they're talking about a possible absence that raises the same possibility with humans.

Let us consider, if everyone had a linker core everyone would be able to use magic. Even if a linker core would be 'weak' you'd still be able to train it until it grows to the point where you can cast at least basic spells. Yet, even in a society where magic is central people are blatantly described being unable to use magic.

[Arkeus]

Beasts or humans, if they're talking about a possible absence that raises the same possibility with humans. stronger doesn't imply a lack in others.



Let us consider, if everyone had a linker core everyone would be able to use magic. Even if a linker core would be 'weak' you'd still be able to train it until it grows to the point where you can cast at least basic spells. Yet, even in a society where magic is central people are blatantly described being unable to use magic.

Except they aren't described as such. Given that there seems to be a 'magical potential lottery' and that working can increase raw power only so much (though it increases a lot of things), it is no wonder people who have very low magical potential would prefer to not waste time learning magic.

It wouldn't be efficient for Regius to waste years to learn a D-rank attack spell when he could use it becoming a officer.

[Keroko]

stronger doesn't imply a lack in others.

Weren't they talking about the presence though?

Except they aren't described as such. Given that there seems to be a 'magical potential lottery' and that working can increase raw power only so much (though it increases a lot of things), it is no wonder people who have very low magical potential would prefer to not waste time learning magic.

It wouldn't be efficient for Regius to waste years to learn a D-rank attack spell when he could use it becoming a officer.

Uh, if you heard that you would be able to use magic, no matter how small, if you trained hard enough, wouldn't you jump at the chance? Seriously, efficiency be damned, anyone here would jump at the chance even if at most they'd only be able to lift a cup.

And yeah, linker cores aren't 'described as such' that's the main problem, really. But if we want to get nitpicky on analysis, having a linker core means you're able to use magic, no matter how small or insignificant. Not being able to use magic would imply, well, no linker core.

[Arkeus]

Uh, if you heard that you would be able to use magic, no matter how small, if you trained hard enough, wouldn't you jump at the chance? Seriously, efficiency be damned, anyone here would jump at the chance even if at most they'd only be able to lift a cup.

Yes, and that's because magic isn't common place.

[Keroko]

And for a society where magic is the cornerstone of civilization it would any different... how? Seriously, considering magic is the way of getting into places, that would only motivate people more.

[Akiyoshi]

Probably because procesing mana doesen't equals to being able to use magic. Probably there are linker cores too atrophied to be properly raised, the fact that you have a linker core doesen't guarantee that you can make it grow and learn to use magic, mana is supposedly something close to the "life energy" stored in every living thing and that is essential not only to magic but also for other needs, i don't know if the Nanohaverse use this concept but the effects of Tohma's Divider Zero Eclipse made me think so, even people arguably unable to use magic got affected by the extreme magic-cancelling power of the attack, probably the basic linker core can't anything besides regulate our life energy, while more developed ones(be by natural selection or by continuous intergenerational growth by a family of active mages) can do more than just regulate mana and become able to process it faster and increase the amount of mana stored beyond their own body's needs.

Wow, we can talk about this for hours xD

[Keroko]

And it's about something not involving the Hucks or Signum for a change. :p

But back to subject, now you're saying 'linker cores too atrophied to be properly raised.' I don't really see how this is an explanation preferable over just saying they have no linker core. If linker cores were really 'too atrophied' than they should not have had such a fierce reaction too Thoma's divider to begin with, so that reasoning is full of holes from the get-go. It's much easier to assume that divide zero does something besides just cancel magic, which is supported by the fact that it also heavily affected eclipse abilities. Despite not being magic, these abilities were canceled just as equally.

The previously made comparison with redundant evolutionary muscles doesn't hold up either. There is a reason why, for example, even those few people who can still use their auricular muscles can only manage a wiggle at best. Because evolution scrapped the rotation feature from our ears. If linker cores were in the same situation, we would have a large majority of the people who can't use magic, and a minor part who can make sparks fly, not a large part of the population who can't use magic and a minor part who can blow up entire streetblocks.

And that's just for earth, on Mid there is such a variety of strength in linker cores that the redundant evolution theory is quite frankly shred to pieces.

[Akiyoshi]

Of course this can be still aplied to fictional evolution theory xD! We know how evolution and natural selection works in real life which makes this(and 90% of the powers presented in any media) absolutely unplausible. But since the linker core is an "eteral" organ we can stretch our imagination a bit. There's the X-Men for example, the mutations according to Marvel universe are a step in evolution of mankind(of some genetic code apparently) which instead on only allow a person to have six fingers or move the ears it go on an extreme jump and give them flat out mutant powers. I don't think the linker core thing is such an extreme case but can be more moderately similar. Mid-childa have a vast population of mages and no mages but that can also be atributed to their previous multicultural nature, they have people from various places, some places with a high rate of "gifted" persons who can use magic and some with a low rate which produce a majority of non-magic users.

Also the gap between magic and non-magic users isn't as big as you're depicting. Nanoha is the "Ace of Aces" and Hayate a feared(by some) official for a reason, there are few the mages that can pull off such a massive display of destructive power(take the redshirts for example, everytime they're present during one of our heroines's displays of power they look at the feat in amazement like saying "holy beans! i wish i'll be able to do something at least as half as awesome as that!" ), and there are mages from a wide range of capabilities and levels, it's just that we only get to look at the top tiers the majority of the time. But there are mages unable to do something more impressive than project a shield(to put things into perspective, being a flying redshirt in the nanohaverse is already a pretty high accomplishement for a mage). While it's true that there's the possibility that a few hundreds of mages equally or more powerfull than our heroines exist in this verse, there's also the fact that there are millions of lower ranked mages and probably billions of non-magic users.

From this point of view i think theorically everyone have at least the biological basis to be turned into a mage, but in practice only those biologically suitable to take that step are the ones who develop healthy, trainable linker cores.

[Keroko]

Of course, the same stretching of our imagination logic means that the "no magic = no linker core" reasoning is just as plausible, and more reasonable when people say that they can't use magic.

And I'm aware of the difference between magical classes, that's why I said on mid there's all kinds of levels. When it comes to earth though, so far it's been either no magic or city-buster level magic.

[Akiyoshi]

Of course, the same stretching of our imagination logic means that the "no magic = no linker core" reasoning is just as plausible, and in fact more reasonable when people say that they can't use magic.

And that's why we can spend all the day spewing reasons and theories about this, but for now it's time for breakfast xD!

Wow! we've finished quickly than i thought xD

[Arkeus]

And I'm aware of the difference between magical classes, that's why I said on mid there's all kinds of levels. When it comes to earth though, so far it's been either no magic or city-buster level magic.

that might actually be because of what you said before.

On mid, people of middling abilities raise them. On earth, the only ones that gets known are the extraordinary ones.

BTW, being a mage doesn't give that much of a rank either in TSAB- being a *powerful* one does, but apparently even for talented people A rank is a impassable wall.

[Keroko]

Maybe, but until we get to see weaker mages, it's either no magic or powerful magic for earth.

And even just being a mage sets your career rolling rather fine. Look at Teana, Subaru and Ginga they were doing just fine. The former not extraordinary until they got picked up by RF6, but very fine nonetheless. Ginga managed just fine by herself. Not to mention it's a job they can dive into very early.

[itanshi1]

unless nanoha is secretly half mid childan <.<; hee

[Skane]

unless nanoha is secretly half mid childan <.<; hee
Except we already know who her parents are. Nanoha is a rare example of a non-orphan Heroine. Heck, they even retcon her father back to life.

Cheers.

[RadiantBeam]

Except we already know who her parents are. Nanoha is a rare example of a non-orphan Heroine. Heck, they even retcon her father back to life.

Cheers.

They could always retcon her parents being regular humans, if they really feel like it. Here's hoping they won't, though.

[Arkeus]

And even just being a mage sets your career rolling rather fine. Look at Teana, Subaru and Ginga they were doing just fine. The former not extraordinary until they got picked up by RF6, but very fine nonetheless. Ginga managed just fine by herself. Not to mention it's a job they can dive into very early.

They were all doing much better than just 'fine', Teana being a very strong mage from a Elite family, and Ginga/Subaru being combat cyborgs.

You aren't talking baout average people at all here, much less weak ones. The whole point of the teana debacle was how she was merely very very gifted amongst monsters, and that made her ignore how far above gifted people she was.

[TheRainbowConnection]

Teana being a very strong mage from a Elite family

Where did you get this impression? Tiida was portrayed as a failure who was mocked even in death. Yeah, he was a Captain in the Air Force, and even if it's worth more than being in the Ground Forces, a Captaincy is like the military's equivalent of low-level corporate management. And as far as I know, we don't know about the other Lansters aside from MY FAMILY IS DEAAAAAAAAAAAD. Everything about them screams "average", leading to the chip on Teana's shoulder.

That said, Tea and Subaru graduated at the top of their class and performed with distinction at their billet at the 386th. So yes, she sold herself short.

[Alavon]

Where did you get this impression? Tiida was portrayed as a failure who was mocked even in death. Yeah, he was a Captain in the Air Force, and even if it's worth more than being in the Ground Forces, a Captaincy is like the military's equivalent of low-level corporate management. And as far as I know, we don't know about the other Lansters aside from MY FAMILY IS DEAAAAAAAAAAAD. Everything about them screams "average", leading to the chip on Teana's shoulder.

That said, Tea and Subaru graduated at the top of their class and performed with distinction at their billet at the 386th. So yes, she sold herself short.

Before heading off to bed....isn't Nanoha a Captain?

[Akiyoshi]

As much as i can remember Tilda Lanster was a pretty good mage with some reputation until that incident, and pretty un common for what we've seen on the series so far he was mocked for his failure and dishonored in death, which i find very suspicious as it seems to be a bit of an exaggerateds reaction to a respectable officer making a mistake(i know some fans are whinny fanboys like me but this really looks strange in-universe).

[itanshi1]

yeah its very hard to not suspect a cover up

[FlameSparkZ]

Yeah, I think he was used as a scapegoat.
All blames on the incident were placed on him and everyone believed it...except Teana.

[TheRainbowConnection]

Before heading off to bed....isn't Nanoha a Captain?

Yeah, in what would technically be a rear-echelon posting, no less. But her skill is less reflected in her rank and permanent billet (Air Instructor) than in her temporary ones (RF6, SDS6, and every other time she is randomly loaned out for special missions). I guess SpecOps in the TSAB is like a side job or turning in extra credit or something.

which i find very suspicious as it seems to be a bit of an exaggerateds reaction to a respectable officer making a mistake
All a part of the attempt of everything post-A's to make the TSAB look as shady as possible once you get past its excellent social welfare safety net.

Still, whether or not there was a cover-up surrounding Tiida's demise, there is no indication that Teana came from any sort of distinguished pedigree.

[Mirron]

It... was kind of the action of one off person. Which is pretty much how things go in TSAB. The organization as a whole is good, but sometimes it has some not so nice people in it. He was one of them, and was later reprimanded for it (want to say even fired). It wasn't TSAB as a whole saying he failed, just one guy.

[00-Raiser]

If I remember right the superior said something bad about Tiida but then took back the statement. Somehow I don't think others in the Bureau look down on Tiida or anything, but it's just that Teana took it personally and felt she had to make up for it.

[Mirron]

Yeah, pretty much how I see it. It's not a coverup, it's just one overly zealous guy who looked down on someone for no real reason. Because TSAB as a whole doesn't look down on him, or even the majority.

[guest]

why is this manga more popular than that Vivid one?

[Akiyoshi]

Who says that, as far as i know ViVid sell better than FORCE in japan.

[Tiresias]

why is this manga more popular than that Vivid one?

Sources?

10charlimit

[guest]

there are more posts in this thread than the vivid one.

[Rising Dragon]

That's only really because of the constant bitching debate concerning Signum and the Huckebein. Not much in the way of popularity.

[Justin_Brett]

Most of that is us bitching at each-other about the Huckebeins or whatever, though. Just 'cause something inspires debate doesn't automatically make it popular.

[Akiyoshi]

Yup, most of this thread is about complaints instead of actual popularity xD

[itanshi1]

I care to think activity does denote popularity, even causing people to dislike it still has people discussing it at a grteater length. Still, its a contributing factor, not a direct correlation.

[Akiyoshi]

Well, if you go by the theory that says "bad publicity is good publicity" then i guess you're right xD

[Tiresias]

there are more posts in this thread than the vivid one.

~Implying the paltry few that is Animesuki members represents the majority of the fans~

Though negative publicity is still publicity, I guess...

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Akiyoshi]

Though negative publicity is still publicity, I guess...

EDIT: Ninja'd

Yay! mi first succesfull ninja assault xD

On the bright side, Animesuki maybe don't represent the majority of the fanbase but at least is the most civilized xD

[Rising Dragon]

Most of the time.

[Arcc]

I rather like it here. I'm not sure I could be within a mile of a more 'hardcore" Nanoha fandom without a lot of injuries, but you guys are pretty mellow, funny, and cultured, which makes me feel like I can hang around in spite of being way off-demographic.

[00-Raiser]

Might not be as popular but I still think Force is better than Vivid.

[Koveras Alvane]

I think it's incorrect to compare the two of them in most aspects, since Force is a continuation of the trends found in the first three seasons and ViVid is a back-to-the-roots spin-off.

[guest]

On the bright side, Animesuki maybe don't represent the majority of the fanbase but at least is the most civilized xD
That's....arguable. I have been out of loop for a long while and I only read a couple chapters of Force and Vivid. I don't see why they make two manga when both of them are practically the same, "fight! fight! fight!"

[Tiresias]

I think it's incorrect to compare the two of them in most aspects, since Force is a continuation of the trends found in the first three seasons and ViVid is a back-to-the-roots spin-off.

Is it? Considering Vivid is even lighter and tamer than the root (The Original Series). For one, there's no sense of crisis on the former.

That's....arguable. I have been out of loop for a long while and I only read a couple chapters of Force and Vivid. I don't see why they make two manga when both of them are practically the same, "fight! fight! fight!"

Force, on the other hand, is a more serious take on the conflicts in the setting...supposedly. I say supposedly because the execution left much to be desired: contrary to what we may believe using a trope correctly is hard, subverting them, even moreso. And it doesn't feel as if the story is "Magical", nor is it epic enough to be called a "War".

To borrow a recent comment:
Strange how I thought I would end up analysing Force more... but that series feels like a ship being piloted by blind monkeys. They can't even execute their tropes properly. Oh well... at least Fortress Nanoha looks cool.

[FRS]

I think it's incorrect to compare the two of them in most aspects, since Force is a continuation of the trends found in the first three seasons and ViVid is a back-to-the-roots spin-off.


Err so the roots of the franchise to you are shonen fight tournament arcs ?

[Justin_Brett]

I think it's incorrect to compare the two of them in most aspects, since Force is a continuation of the trends found in the first three seasons and ViVid is a back-to-the-roots spin-off.

Really, putting the two of them together wasn't a very good move to begin with. If you read them both, and a lot of people probably will, the back to basics approach is just going to make people remember the first season and As, and Force does not come off well when compared to those.

[Miles Teg]

Who says that, as far as i know ViVid sell better than FORCE in japan.

Sales figures from Oricon (released at ANN)

Title (release date) : First Week - Second Week (Total)

Force 01 (2010/01/30) : 56,613 (not present in second week so less than 22,000)
Vivid 01 (2010/01/26) : 34,545 - 44,618 (79,163)

Force 02 (2010/08/26) : 4,987 - 62,881 (67,868)
Vivid 02 (2010/07/26) : 55,548 - 27,545 (83,093)

Force 03 Limited Edition (2011/03/10) : 38,129 (not present in second week so less than 23,000)
Vivid 03 Limited Edition (2011/03/10) : 38,747 (not present in second week so less than 23,000)

Force 03 (2011/03/26) : 2,543 - 49,897 (52,440)
Vivid 03 (2011/03/26) : 2,934 - 55,496 (58,430)

[Koveras Alvane]

Err so the roots of the franchise to you are shonen fight tournament arcs ?

I meant it more along the lines of magical-lolis-befriending-each-other. There is definitely none of that in Force. ;)

[Akiyoshi]

Finally readed translated Ch. 15(in spanish) and it contains some interesting info:

-Lily activate her Strosek functions to assume control of the Book of the Silver Cross, while also lamenting for those injured by being involved with her(well, thanks Lily, is reconforting that at least someone feels bad for certain swordswoman, you win two points of simpathy on my book xD).
-She also manage to control the virus and make it stable, freeing Tohma of the symptoms.
-Shamal explicity states that her medical team have the technology for the investigation and tratement of the Eclipse virus and even says that Tohma will be the first patient to recover from the infection.
-Isis don't want to let Tohma be a guinea pig for investigations but Nanoha reassure her that Tohma will not be used as an an investigation subject for the "Ace System"(whatever that means o_o). Also states that Section six is not "some brutal organization".
-Curren bring a new navigation program for the Esquad Huckebein that will make Stella's work much easier, also confirms that the reason she let Hayate alive is because she's a very respected commander and thus she wants to avoid a full-scale persecution from the TSAB in response. Also states that she wants to mantain a "balance" between the Huckebein family and Section Six meaning that she's ok as long as they are they only persecutors, Veyron disagrees arguing that the past battle was a perfect chance to eliminate them, Curren then order him to keep an eye on them to calm him down. Then talk about about some girl(s) with a book and a sword(i don't get it completely, the translation don't make much sense at this point) and then about how their "colleagues" tried to trick them by working behind their backs.
-Finally the scene cuts to the lab where Ginga and Cinque prescence the demonstration fo the CW-ADX "Raptors".

Ok everybody, discuss xD!

[FRS]

I meant it more along the lines of magical-lolis-befriending-each-other. There is definitely none of that in Force. ;)

It may have started that way but the story has quickly changed tones and themes, at this point IMO if Force cant be considered as a straight continuation of the franchise neither can Vivid be.

They are both expending the franchise but in differents directions.

[Keroko]

Pretty much in line with the theories I've been throwing out these past couple of months, so yeah, not really anything to debate from my side.

[Justin_Brett]

Killing people and then beating up people that try and stop you: a good balance. But seriously, why would Section Six be the only people trying to stop them? That's a big assumption.

Also, that's very underwhelming 'big news'.

[Akiyoshi]

I think they refer to "balance" to the fact that they want to keep the ilussion that Section Six have a chance against them so the TSAB do not resot to invest greater resources and people onto pursuing them. Curren also mentions that things are fine for her as long as they are able to escape their pursuers. It's not like she can't deal with the task, it's more like is an annoyance for her.

[Justin_Brett]

Well, I guess I can rest assured knowing she'll be proven wrong about that...by chapter thirty-six.

I mean, they can't logistically get any smugger from this point, can they?

[Alavon]

Ignoring their ridiculous design, I'm actually more interested in the "Raptors". Are they going to be like the Mariages or like James Cameron's "Avatars"?

[Rising Dragon]

More like Mariages. We already know they're supposed to be autonomous.

[Alavon]

If that's the case then why do I have a feeling that it might turn like Revenge of the Sith? Watch out Commanders, they might turn against you!

[Tiresias]

If that's the case then why do I have a feeling that it might turn like Revenge of the Sith? Watch out Commanders, they might turn against you!

Trust me, you're not the only one. There's already been a few "Order 66" jokes here not long after their introduction :heh:

[Koveras Alvane]

-Curren bring a new navigation program for the Esquad Huckebein that will make Stella's work much easier, also confirms that the reason she let Hayate alive is because she's a very respected commander and thus she wants to avoid a full-scale persecution from the TSAB in response. Also states that she wants to mantain a "balance" between the Huckebein family and Section Six meaning that she's ok as long as they are they only persecutors, Veyron disagrees arguing that the past battle was a perfect chance to eliminate them, Curren then order him to keep an eye on them to calm him down. Then talk about about some girl(s) with a book and a sword(i don't get it completely, the translation don't make much sense at this point) and then about how their "colleagues" tried to trick them by working behind their backs.

So the guys who killed the folks on Easter weren't the Hucks, after all. That means, there is another group of Eclipse Drivers, at least two persons strong, out with their own agenda.

Also, it seems that as long as Curren is in charge, the Hucks' bark is worse than their bite. Suddenly, I fear for her life...

Trust me, you're not the only one. There's already been a few "Order 66" jokes here not long after their introduction :heh:

"Every single mage is now an enemy of the Bureau. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy"? :uhoh:

[Tiresias]

"Every single mage is now an enemy of the Bureau. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy"? :uhoh:

That's...a lot of target. :uhoh:

As long as they use decent equipment for the job, I suppose. Right now, the only Raptor attack move I can think of is headbutt :heh:

[Justin_Brett]

Also, it seems that as long as Curren is in charge, the Hucks' bark is worse than their bite. Suddenly, I fear for her life...

Well it's not like one of the others who we assumed was the leader is considerably more shifty and serious than - oh. Yeah...

And I dunno about two people. That woman looked pretty different from Curren, but the man looked a lot like Veyron. I mean, who's to say how long he's been with them? According to stuff on the wiki, a lot of them don't like him much, either...

[Akiyoshi]

Probably but my guess is that Curren is talking about the misterious scientists from Ch. 1 probably they promise something to them but are now working differently and Curren notes that. Besides, the thing that catch my attention more is the fact that Shamal not only confirms in canon the existence of a treatement for the Eclipse acceseed by the TSAB but also affirms that the treatement is effective and even have the confidence to say that Tohma will be the first person cured. Things suddenly turn a twist for the supposedly "the Hucks are escaping fron the eeeeevil TSAB" theory.

[Endscape]

The most interesting thing to me is the fact that there is a cure, and it isn't some shadowy section of the TSAB that has it, but Shamal, who is as mainstream as you can get. The Hucks have no excuse now.

[Tiresias]

Unless they've tasted her cooking and decided that her cure will be equally horrifying

[Justin_Brett]

The most interesting thing to me is the fact that there is a cure, and it isn't some shadowy section of the TSAB that has it, but Shamal, who is as mainstream as you can get.

Wait, what?

There goes almost all the moral ambiguity, I guess. Now it's just people being stubborn like usual, except with far, far worse behavior.

[Akiyoshi]

Unless they've tasted her cooking and decided that her cure will be equally horrifying

Kusuha Mizuha's "Healthy Drink" reference xD?

By the way, Shamal's cooking is supposedly good by StrikerS(by Hayate's own admision), now in FORCE she must be a pretty good chef xD

[00-Raiser]

The most interesting thing to me is the fact that there is a cure, and it isn't some shadowy section of the TSAB that has it, but Shamal, who is as mainstream as you can get. The Hucks have no excuse now.

Not necessarily. Apparently Thoma is to be the first the treatment has worked on. Meaning all past cases were failures, or that there's no treatment yet until Shamal can study Thoma and devise a cure.

And yeah, we all know everyone in section 6 has a halo over their heads but surely not all TSAB doctors are as nice as Shamal.

[Justin_Brett]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

[00-Raiser]

Your point? Just because they take an oath doesn't mean they can't break it. Cops swear to protect and serve but that doesn't stop dirty cops from existing.

[Tiresias]

Well it's your right to cling to the yet-to-be-proven evil TSAB theory (the shady scientists had yet to be shown affiliating with anyone, TSAB included) :heh:. I myself prefer to stick to what's actually shown :rolleyes:.

As usual.

[00-Raiser]

You can't sit there and tell me that absolutely everyone in a galaxy spanning government is all pure and good.

At the very least Shamal saying Thoma will be the first means there's no way of knowing if the cure actually works. That she also says she needs to investigate further before she can make it suggests that the treatment mentioned in the Force Next was a theoretical one. "Come with us and recieve treament, even though we're still working on the actual treatment part."

Huckebein could have gone "We're not putting our lives in your hands. We'll handle it ourselves."

In all likelihood Shamal's cure will be a failure. Can't have Thoma losing his powers until the end of the story.

[Mirron]

I doubt he'll lose his powers, just the negative side effects, at least in the long run. It'd seem odd to me if he did lose them at least, given how the series typically goes. I mean, they managed to fix the corrupted Book of Darkness, I'd be surprised if they couldn't fix this.

[Rising Dragon]

IIRC, his unison with Lily already negated the Eclipse's negative side effects, including the "Kill everything" mode and the need to kill to survive.

And remember: they didn't fix the Book of Darkness. They separated five parts of it and then killed one of them to destroy the Book for good.

[Tiresias]

You can't sit there and tell me that absolutely everyone in a galaxy spanning government is all pure and good.

Oh I'm not saying that all is good (where's the story in that?).

Sure, it's perfectly possible that TSAB has some skeletons in their closet, and that the Hucks isn't as bad as they seem. Maybe the TSAB have government-sanctioned researchers doing inhumane tests. Maybe the Hucks didn't actually kill the nuns. Maybe there's going to be a third faction, of which Section 6 and the Hucks will be forced to join hands and safe the day.

Keyword: maybe.

Maybe the TSAB actually has a black ops doing nasty things "for the greater good". Maybe Precia wasn't actually wholly evil, and part of it was caused by split personality. Maybe Hayate's groping tendencies are actually to make guys think she's a lesbian and leave her alone due to past traumas. And maybe in a few month Midchilda is going to be invaded by Orkz and Imperial Guards, or someone unearths the Holy Grail and brought it there so the Mage Association summons Servants to infiltrate the planet and retrieve their prize.

See where this is going? :heh:

There are countless possibilities on what is going behind the scenes, but until they show up in this story then those are just speculations, unproven and irrelevant to what's actually shown. Musing about them is fun and makes for interesting ideas and jokes, but I'll take it with a grain of salt when recounting what is actually going on in the story :p

[Justin_Brett]

Well what the hell kind of context could an evil, sinister doctor in the TSAB pop up in this story, really? Even if you want to play Devil's Advocate, you're a little asinine with it sometimes.

I mean, the TSAB having dicks in it wouldn't make the Hucks not objectively pretty cruel people too.

(Nice shout outs by the way, Tiresias)

[Mirron]

They fixed it for all intents and purposes. It's still a massive spell storage device, as near as I recall, at least. I just don't think Hayate uses it much to learn new spells, but pretty sure she still could do that if she wanted to.

Well, we know nothing about Lily unison except a handful of things right now. Besides, could be a way to remove the bad stuff without relying on Lily.

[Rising Dragon]

They fixed it for all intents and purposes. It's still a massive spell storage device, as near as I recall, at least. I just don't think Hayate uses it much to learn new spells, but pretty sure she still could do that if she wanted to.

Well, we know nothing about Lily unison except a handful of things right now. Besides, could be a way to remove the bad stuff without relying on Lily.

No, it's not--the Book of Darkness was destroyed. The Tome of the Night Sky that Hayate uses is a custom Storage Device she built herself, as all of the Devices that had been built for her (due to the original Tome's destruction) kept melting down on themselves as they couldn't handle Hayate's mana output.

[00-Raiser]

Well what the hell kind of context could an evil, sinister doctor in the TSAB pop up in this story, really? Even if you want to play Devil's Advocate, you're a little asinine with it sometimes.

We already had evil sinister doctors in the first chapter.

I give Bureau corruption more credibility because it's happened before. Twice. Three times if you count the assholes Precia worked for.

[Rising Dragon]

Was Precia's superiors even part of the TSAB?

[Tiresias]

I mean, the TSAB having dicks in it wouldn't make the Hucks not objectively pretty cruel people too.

This. It's amazing how a tragic past can make readers forget that they're still assholes in the present :heh:. If your bully one day admitted that he was always beaten up by his dad and him beating you up was a way to channel the frustration, would you let him continue bullying you out of pity?

(Nice shout outs by the way, Tiresias)

I like those fics. There are more, but the post would be crowded.

Three times if you count the assholes Precia worked for.

Wait. Was her project even government sponsored? I still don't even know what kind of institution she worked before :heh: (for some reason my mind keeps saying it's apower company, but I have no idea why I think that)

[Justin_Brett]

We already had evil sinister doctors in the first chapter.

But not ones in the TSAB.

And probably semantics, but a scientist is usually different from a medical doctor in fiction.

[Akiyoshi]

In all likelihood Shamal's cure will be a failure. Can't have Thoma losing his powers until the end of the story.

There'a also the possibility that when tohma is about to be cured some big trouble arises and tohma realizes that his incredibly broken Eclipse powers are necessary to save the day and forfeits the chance to be cured in order to save everyone. Probably with Shamal saying something among the lines of "if you undergo a second reinfection the cure will be useless" to add more weight to the drama xD.

[Justin_Brett]

How could you get double infected by something?

[Akiyoshi]

Ok, wrong selection of words, i'm talking more about of a "relapse" into the "Eclipse Driver" stage, more likely Lily returned Tohma to the "carrier" stage of the infection. In some stories the "cure" have some conditions like curing someone's deformity but taking away their powers in the process and when he discovers that his powers are necessary the guy sacrfices himself returning to his old condition and usually render the cure lost or unable to work on him anymore. I think Tohma can go trough something similar.

[Tiresias]

I give Bureau corruption more credibility because it's happened before. Twice. Three times if you count the assholes Precia worked for.

Understandable.

Of course, this is also not the first time the villains turns out to be assholes themselves:heh:. Remember Precia? Sickly, tragic past, sympathetic goals...and so nasty in her conducts that we hate her nonetheless. Or Jail, the madman with records of grisly, unethical experiments who also almost took an entire world hostage for the Lulz. And there's Toredia and Runessa, who were behind terrorist attacks orchestrated because they want Midchildans to feel the same pain as them.

The possibilities goes both ways, you know :p

There'a also the possibility that when tohma is about to be cured some big trouble arises and tohma realizes that his incredibly broken Eclipse powers are necessary to save the day and forfeits the chance to be cured in order to save everyone. Probably with Shamal saying something among the lines of "if you undergo a second reinfection the cure will be useless" to add more weight to the drama xD.

Ah! Something like Spider-Man 2? :)

Page Claim for heroes and villains!

[00-Raiser]

In the case of Thoma refusing the cure we still wouldn't know if the cure would actually work or not. Only way to know is if it successfully cures some one of the virus.

Maybe they'll weaponise it like in X-3

Anyways, in the last few pages when have I argued against the Huckebein being assholes? All I've been saying is that parts of the Bureau could be involved in shady dealings.

[Akiyoshi]

In the case of Thoma refusing the cure we still wouldn't know if the cure would actually work or not. Only way to know is if it successfully cures some one of the virus.
It also can happen that Tohma gets actually cured or starting to ged rid of the infection when she decides to engage with Lily again(and being infected as a consequence) in order to save the day.

*suddenly i imagined Tohma enjoying a "normal day" like Peter Parker in Spider-Man 2 ....complete with the music and the Hot-Dog bite xD*

Maybe they'll weaponise it like in X-3

Iiiiiiiiiiinteresting :naughty:

[Justin_Brett]

Maybe the Eclipse Virus also makes you act like a douchebag, like the Symbiote? It would explain a lot of stuff.

[Endscape]

You can't sit there and tell me that absolutely everyone in a galaxy spanning government is all pure and good.

At the very least Shamal saying Thoma will be the first means there's no way of knowing if the cure actually works. That she also says she needs to investigate further before she can make it suggests that the treatment mentioned in the Force Next was a theoretical one. "Come with us and recieve treament, even though we're still working on the actual treatment part."

Huckebein could have gone "We're not putting our lives in your hands. We'll handle it ourselves."

In all likelihood Shamal's cure will be a failure. Can't have Thoma losing his powers until the end of the story.

The word I saw Akiyoshi use was 'cure' not 'treatment'. I don't know if that's a translation error or something, but generally the difference between cures and treatments are that cures are proven.

Seeing as how the Hucks seem to have good intelligence on the TSAB, I doubt they don't know about it.

[Akiyoshi]

The word I saw Akiyoshi use was 'cure' not 'treatment'. I don't know if that's a translation error or something, but generally the difference between cures and treatments are that cures are proven.

Well...

-Shamal explicity states that her medical team have the technology for the investigation and tratement of the Eclipse virus and even says that Tohma will be the first patient to recover from the infection.

Those are the orignal words spelled by Shamal(at least according to the spanish translation) it's a bit tricky because she states that they have a treatement but also that it works and that Tohma will be cured, so the line between "treatement" and "cure" blurrs a bit XD. Also got my attention Nanoha's mention of the "ACE sytstem" i don't know what it is or if have something to do with the Eclipse virus.

[Rising Dragon]

I wonder if the ACE System is an offshoot of ACS.

[Akiyoshi]

I wonder if the ACE System is an offshoot of ACS.

That or some kind of attempt to control and weaponize the Eclipse virus xD.

[Justin_Brett]

Sort of makes you wonder why none of them felt like mentioning that to the Hucks in any capacity, then. I mean, having the cure implies you were going to apply it after you arrested them, right?

Maybe they were all having a bad day.

[Endscape]

Those are the orignal words spelled by Shamal(at least according to the spanish translation) it's a bit tricky because she states that they have a treatement but also that it works and that Tohma will be cured, so the line between "treatement" and "cure" blurrs a bit XD. Also got my attention Nanoha's mention of the "ACE sytstem" i don't know what it is or if have something to do with the Eclipse virus.

Shamal says that it works, so it's a cure.


Sort of makes you wonder why none of them felt like mentioning that to the Hucks in any capacity, then. I mean, having the cure implies you were going to apply it after you arrested them, right?

Maybe they were all having a bad day.


I'm quite sure they heard it from someone. In any case, as I said earlier the Hucks seem to know much about the TSAB and Section Six so they must know from that.

[Akiyoshi]

By the way, there isn't any tranlation or raw text of the NEXT design 14? I know it's Thoma's Black Knight form again but i want to know if there's any new info on that.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8606/tohmaforce.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/tohmaforce.jpg/)
This is the pic xD

[Justin_Brett]

I hope he gets another form later with some actual, you know, armor, if they're gonna call it that.

[Akiyoshi]

I hope he gets another form later with some actual, you know, armor, if they're gonna call it that.

To be fair his "Black Knight" form is one of the first "protective gear" that actually resembles an actual armor(heavy armored leg-pieces,, mid-section and also arm pieces), the Belkan "Knight Armor" were the closest before this and that only because of the casual metal plates they have and their "Knight-esque" design(like Signum's jacket piece, those shoulder-parts make her look buffer xD).

[Keroko]

The Wolkies wear Knight Garb, not Knight Armor. I don't think we've ever seen actual Knight Armor in the series.

[Endscape]

When you mean Knight Armour, so you mean the traditional full plate armour knights use? I doubt, where going to see that, not when you have barrier jackets.

Tohma's look, with gauntlets and greeves and vambraces, is the closest you'd get.

[Akiyoshi]

The Wolkies wear Knight Garb, not Knight Armor. I don't think we've ever seen actual Knight Armor in the series.

I know, i was talking about the name of their protective gear, Ancient Belkan fight clothes are called "Knight Armor" instead of "Barrier Jacket" and even if they lack actual armored protection they still look stetically Knight-like xD

[Mirron]

They are actually called Knight Garb though, not Knight Armor. It's not even the name of it. Ancient Belkan warriors normally do fight in Knight Armor, but that isn't what the Wolkenritter use. At least not currently.

[Akiyoshi]

They are actually called Knight Garb though, not Knight Armor. It's not even the name of it. Ancient Belkan warriors normally do fight in Knight Armor, but that isn't what the Wolkenritter use. At least not currently.

Source?

I readed the "Knight Armor" thing on the Wikia so i'm not completely sure, and the series never referenced it by name onscreen.

[Rising Dragon]

Y'all like to forget that Zest wore armored boots and gauntlets, like Touma does.

[Mirron]

I didn't forget Zest, and it's somewhere on here in one of those translated booklet things. I don't really know where it is, but doubtless someone does, or will search for it. Doesn't matter too much to me either way.

[Keroko]

StrikerS DVD2 booklet.

Reinforce II Knight’s Garb & The Book of the Azure Sky

Ancient Belkan practitioners generally equip defensive attire known as “Knight Armor”, but the Guardian Knights wear “Knight’s Garb”, designed by Hayate. (Concerning this, details can be found in the “Book of Darkness Incident” data files) Similarly, the Unison Device Reinforce II dons Knight’s Garb when advancing to the front lines. As fitting the support-type Reinforce II, although it does not provide top-class protection, Knight’s Garb allows for more agile maneuvering. The Book of the Azure Sky is a storage device. Similar to Hayate, Reinforce Zwei’s personal device holds an enormous volume of magic data, which is not used independantly, but makes up half of the magic data available during a Unison.

[Rising Dragon]

I didn't forget Zest, and it's somewhere on here in one of those translated booklet things. I don't really know where it is, but doubtless someone does, or will search for it. Doesn't matter too much to me either way.

My remark was actually towards everyone saying that Touma was the first example. He's not.

[Akiyoshi]

Y'all like to forget that Zest wore armored boots and gauntlets, like Touma does.

True xD, that Badass longcoat of him fooled my memory xD

I didn't forget Zest, and it's somewhere on here in one of those translated booklet things. I don't really know where it is, but doubtless someone does, or will search for it. Doesn't matter too much to me either way.

We can ask Koveras about that, he's in constant contact with a lot of good sources xD

Meanwhile he's an interesting link (http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Barrier_Jacket)(search in "Variations"). It results that the Ancient Belkan protective gear is referenced as both Knight Clothing AND Knight Armour. Funny huh?

[Keroko]

Then the wiki needs to be corrected, since the booklet quite clearly states that Knight's Garb is a different, more lightweight form of armor.

[Akiyoshi]

So the Ancient Belkan "Knight Armor" do actually exist but the gear used by the Wolkenritter on modern times is actually "Knight Clothing", i guess the gear used by Olivie in ViVid's flashbacks is an actual Knight Armor. (the more info i read about these guys the less awesome they become xDU).

[Arcc]

(the more info i read about these guys the less awesome they become xDU).

And what's less awesome about lighter, more dynamic armor? Believe me, heavy plate is very specific and circumstantial in its protection. It's great if the battlefield you are facing is the one specific to its design, but any day of the week I'd go with something more adaptive that can let me get the heck out of the way when it becomes important to do so.

[00-Raiser]

Shamal says that it works, so it's a cure.

She also says that Thoma will be the first to recover, meaning they actually don't know if it'll work or not. She could have just been optimisitic/confident that it would work and was assuring him as such.

Unless they had some Eclipse infected rats on hand.

[Mirron]

Yeah, kind of have to agree with the fact Shamal is just being optimistic.

And I wouldn't say heavier defense is a bad thing. I mean, that's the kind of Barrier Jacket Nanoha, Subaru, and Teana use, it's really just a preference thing. But also nothing wrong with less defense more speed. The Wolkenritter are perfectly awesome. You're just being overly picky about silly things. :P Not like the defensive value of said armor changes it's appearance any.

[Akiyoshi]

I wonder if a Divider can cut trough an actual piece of "Knight Armor" xD

[Justin_Brett]

I wasn't really talking about the Wolkenritter or anything, I just thought it looked kinda silly as it is, like it's half formed or something. Especially the way his mid-driff is bared. You already have a male villain who doesn't wear shirts, and it's not like Touma really has anything to show off in any case.

[Akiyoshi]

You already have a male villain who doesn't wear shirts, and it's not like Touma really has anything to show off in any case.

Save for a bunch of red tatoos. Also, ironically the shirtless guy ends up being the more heavy armored warrior of the group ....and of the entire franchise XD. Still wondering how a reacted Fortis will look xD

[Justin_Brett]

Kinda makes me wonder if the Reacts are completely random and without any kind of theme, or if they can all have armor like that.

[mielipuoli]

Idly, isn't there pictures of proper Knight Armor in the flashback chapter from ViVid?

[Akiyoshi]

Kinda makes me wonder if the Reacts are completely random and without any kind of theme, or if they can all have armor like that.
No, it was stated that the Eclipse Drivers and Dividers can develope exclusive powers appart of the general ones(magic immunity, super toughness, quick regeneration) and sometimes those powers are enhaced versions of the regular ones(apparently Deville's super regeneration is even more extreme than his comrades and Cypha's Divider is slightly weaker in light).

[Akiyoshi]

Idly, isn't there pictures of proper Knight Armor in the flashback chapter from ViVid?

I don't know if it's a proper "Knight Armor" but Olivie is wearing a very protective set of armor xD

[Rising Dragon]

I wasn't really talking about the Wolkenritter or anything, I just thought it looked kinda silly as it is, like it's half formed or something. Especially the way his mid-driff is bared. You already have a male villain who doesn't wear shirts, and it's not like Touma really has anything to show off in any case.

I'll give you that--Touma's shirt looks like it'd work better on a girl; I never liked the whole "guy looking like he's wearing a sports bra" look on anime characters.

I don't know if it's a proper "Knight Armor" but Olivie is wearing a very protective set of armor xD

Very likely she's not wearing Knight Armor. Martial artists like Olivie and Klaus would prefer not to be weighed down by their clothing, they'd want something that's light and allows them to be speedy.

[Endscape]

She also says that Thoma will be the first to recover, meaning they actually don't know if it'll work or not. She could have just been optimisitic/confident that it would work and was assuring him as such.

Unless they had some Eclipse infected rats on hand.

When people say things like 'first to recover' or 'definitely cured', that must mean she has some definitive proof about it, otherwise she would have said treatment and not that he would be the first to recover.

Come to think of it, weren't there those Eclipse-infected meatsacks around? Could have used those to find a cure.

[Yasanagi]

I'll give you that--Touma's shirt looks like it'd work better on a girl; I never liked the whole "guy looking like he's wearing a sports bra" look on anime characters.

Same here. Guys wearing midriff bearing tops like KOF's Benimaru and Guilty Gear's Testament aren't my thing.

I say he should have a vest sorta like Seifer's if the FFVIII theme is to be kept going. It'll show a little flesh at the bottom (at most the belly button) but at least most of the torso would be covered in armour.

[Rising Dragon]

Doesn't help that Force already has a flat-chested character in a midriff-baring outfit, that's way more appropriate gender-wise.

[Justin_Brett]

Cypha's Divider is slightly weaker in light

"No, no, she really is tough, see! It just wasn't the right time of the day for her to do anything?"

Wouldn't it make more sense to say she's weaker at night? It would restore some of her credibility, maybe.

[Mirron]

Pretty sure she doesn't weaken when in sunlight. That'd be an odd weakness, if so.

And I think Shamal is just being confident. If he's the first to be cured, there's no way to guarantee an absolute cure. Unless they found a device that is designed specifically to remove the Eclipse virus.

Page claim for Eclipse virus discussions.

[Justin_Brett]

Not a very subtle one, either, even for the evil member.

[Skane]

Shamal might have tested it on tissue samples. Like how they tested Penicillin on petri-dishes.

Cheers.

[Akiyoshi]

Pretty sure she doesn't weaken when in sunlight. That'd be an odd weakness, if so.

* Cypha's reactor "Koing" transform into two long double-edged swords with great cutting capability. Both blades can channel the "dividing" effect thus being very effective at nullyfing magical defenses, the blades can also dispell magical attacks and shoot powerfull beams of energy(as Agito confirms xDU). The downside is that their power and precision are not very good in light, reason because they're more suited for "killing at short distances" and because of their link to Cypha's infection they're also resistant to steel corrosion.


That's from the post i made some time ago about the NEXT designs. So ok, it's less like is getting weaker in light and more like is less effective in light.

[00-Raiser]

Shamal might have tested it on tissue samples. Like how they tested Penicillin on petri-dishes.

Cheers.

Then the question becomes where she'd get such samples.

[Justin_Brett]

The downside is that their power and precision are not very good in light, reason because they're more suited for "killing at short distances"

That...doesn't make any sense. I mean, I get she wouldn't be very good at long range because of depth perception, but the time of day wouldn't have anything to do with that all of the time. Only when you're facing the sun, really.

If anything, doing it at night would be just as bad.

[Akiyoshi]

That...doesn't make any sense. I mean, I get she wouldn't be very good at long range because of depth perception, but the time of day wouldn't have anything to do with that all of the time. Only when you're facing the sun, really.

If anything, doing it at night would be just as bad.

Well, they say "light" not "sunlight" or "daylight", i guess we need more info about that(only if said disadvantage get actually exploited we will get solid info, i guess).

[Justin_Brett]

Well, 'in light' doesn't leave very much guesswork for it.

[Koveras Alvane]

To be fair his "Black Knight" form is one of the first "protective gear"

Correction: The Japanese classification term for the Black Knight is "戦闘防護服" ("combat protective clothing"). The kanjis for Barrier Jackets are "防護服" ("protective clothing"): exactly the same thing, minus the word "combat". Thus, at least, according to nomenclature, the Black Knight suit seems to be treated similarly to Barrier Jackets. However, since the "防護服" usually comes with ruby spelling "バリアジャケット" ("Barrier Jacket"), this subtle similarity/difference gets lost in translation.

The Wolkies wear Knight Garb, not Knight Armor. I don't think we've ever seen actual Knight Armor in the series.

Actually, we have: in ViVid flashbacks (of regular knights) and a lot of them in Memory;ex (chapter 19.5, where Vita is the POV character). They are literally armor sets with chest plates and stuff. The Japanese term is "騎士甲冑" ("knight's armor and helmet"). The Knight Garb is spelled "騎士服" (lit. "knight clothing") and uses the same third kanji as "Barrier Jacket" above, indicating that it's basically a Barrier Jacket for Knights (thus, extra armor pieces).

Then the wiki needs to be corrected

It does not. :) The entire infos outlined above have been posted on the wiki for months now (at least since January).

[Keroko]

Then the question becomes where she'd get such samples.

Fights with Eclipse users, raiding of laboratories a-la the one in the first chapter, dead Eclipse users who consumed themselves in the field, the list is endless.

[Keroko]

Actually, we have: in ViVid flashbacks (of regular knights) and a lot of them in Memory;ex (chapter 19.5, where Vita is the POV character). They are literally armor sets with chest plates and stuff. The Japanese term is "騎士甲冑" ("knight's armor and helmet"). The Knight Garb is spelled "騎士服" (lit. "knight clothing") and uses the same third kanji as "Barrier Jacket" above, indicating that it's basically a Barrier Jacket for Knights (thus, extra armor pieces).

Oh yeah, I'd forgot about that. Looks like the difference in appearance between Garb and Armor doesn't have to be all that large then.

It does not. :) The entire infos outlined above have been posted on the wiki for months now (at least since January).

I corrected it yesterday. Before that, it said that Knight's Garb "was often called" Knight's Armor.

[Koveras Alvane]

it said that Knight's Garb "was often called" Knight's Armor.

Which it is, at least in the confused fandom. :p But I agree, you edits were clarifying.

[Mirron]

Considering it said something about being meant for close-range attacks, pretty sure something was lost in translation. It... doesn't make much sense at all that the attack would be weaked in light if it's meant for short-ranged attacks. Since it's doubtful it's meant to be used at night, and the way Cypha fights sound like a more melee combatant... just doesn't add up.

[Keroko]

It makes a lot more sense if the actual translation is something like "The downside is that their power and precision are not very good at long range."

[Justin_Brett]

Well really, none of the Hucks' weapons are made for precision or subtlety, so it's not like that's a weakness unique to Cypha.

[Arcc]

I'm still thinking Shamal's treatment seems a bit sketchy, especially at this point in the story. Does anybody else get the feeling this "cure" is going to work almost as well as Hank McCoy's serum?

Of course, that'd just give Aki more grounds to rage about the Wolks.

[Mirron]

Even if the cure worked perfectly, and somehow managed to cause a chain reaction affecting the rest of the people affected by the Eclipse, yet somehow causing Cypha to die, pretty sure Aki would complain. :P

And I just think that it's too soon to say it'll absolutely work if Thoma is the first live human subject. Especially since his Eclipse virus is likely at least somewhat different from the norm, based on his just... well, greater level of power.

[Akiyoshi]

Of course, that'd just give Aki more grounds to rage about the Wolks.

Even if the cure worked perfectly, and somehow managed to cause a chain reaction affecting the rest of the people affected by the Eclipse, yet somehow causing Cypha to die, pretty sure Aki would complain. :P

Well, yes and no.

If Shamal is the one who made the "cure"(which i really doubt) i will complain, but if not it will be responsibility of the people that worked on it, not Shamal's(albeit she will be indirectly responsible for administrating it to Tohma).

About Cypha, she and Signum have no excuses, shame on the latter for being turned into a weakling and shame on the former for not be able to live up to the hype she gathered after that victory.

[Mirron]

It's mostly a joke, but you are unfairly harsh on the Wolkenritter. Even with Hayate being, say, my second favorite of the series, not that harsh on her. :P

[00-Raiser]

Yeah, cuz one damn loss means you're a weakling, amiright?