Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion [Archive] - Page 4

Keroko

2011-02-22, 20:26

BIIIGGGGG difference, it was explained that the escort ships didn't have magic in the walls while the flagship does.

They are floating ships of ice! They can't be made of anything but magic! There are even magical ice constructs coming from the walls! What is-! I! You-!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

*huff huff*

That series never fails to fry my brains.

Plus, Imagine Breaker never made water disappear, that one's on Force :p

To be fair, all Force showed was a giant ice mountain shattering. It never shows it disappearing entirely.

Why would they have? So far the Huckebein family's shown they don't like to kill unnecessarily.

They blatantly told him they would have killed him. To his face. Right before asking him to join them. I'll take the words of the guys in question over any crazy theory we can cook up.

fukarming

2011-02-22, 20:28

After the most recent chapter, I think it is quite obvious that Tsuzuki is opening the route for befriending. The huckebein who stabbed Hayate basically say things that only good guys say. About the huckebeins killing innocent people, so far it is only hearsay - we never actually see the huckebeins slaughtering innocents in action.

Yasanagi

2011-02-22, 20:29

Someone didn't read chapter seven.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that being offered a place in the Nakajima family constitutes as destroying lesbian ships and curing female homosexuals.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-22, 20:30

They blatantly told him they would have killed him. To his face. Right before asking him to join them. I'll take the words of the guys in question over any crazy theory we can cook up.

Honestly, i'm waiting for Karen and Arnage to talk. Fortis, Veyron and Cypha sounbds very unreliable about their true intentions as anyone of them launch a different verion of the concept of their group. As a cheeful and caring leader, i'll think Karen will be more honest about the truth.

After the most recent chapter, I think it is quite obvious that Tsuzuki is opening the route for befriending. The huckebein who stabbed Hayate basically say things that only good guys say. About the huckebeins killing innocent people, so far it is only hearsay - we never actually see the huckebeins slaughtering innocents in action.

That's why i say they're unrelaiable. Veyron tease Tohma about the possibility of being culprit of destroying his village, Fortis deny that, Cypha gloat about salughter an entire village population by herself but we didn't get confirmation about it, we still didn't get Karen's dialogue so it's hard to tell what her intentions are but Arnage at least looks to be worried about Tohma and show to be too entusiast in convincing Section Six that they're unable to help him(like if she was jealous or something). Still can cut the befreinding check for some of them, but Arnage, veyron and KAren apaprently know more about than the rest.

Rising Dragon

2011-02-22, 20:31

They blatantly told him they would have killed him. To his face. Right before asking him to join them. I'll take the words of the guys in question over any crazy theory we can cook up.

Perhaps I'd have to go back and re-read it, but the way I figure it from what I remember, their telling him that they would've killed all of them, him included, was if they themselves attacked the village--which they didn't; they only came after the fact. So I'm assuming had they did find him after the fact, they wouldn't have killed them. Hell, that'd have gotten their hands dirty in the deed regardless of their initial innocence in the incident.

Kaijo

2011-02-22, 20:31

But then why kill whole villages? I really doubt they need an entire society's worth of kills for six people.

They are mercs. I can imagine that if they were on a secret job, and a village found out about it, they'd kill the entire village so the secret wouldn't be revealed. All that matters is the job.

And yes, hopefully we'll get more information on the virus later on.

They are floating ships of ice! They can't be made of anything but magic! There are even magical ice constructs coming from the walls! What is-! I! You-!

Ice does float. ;p

Keroko

2011-02-22, 20:32

Honestly, i'm waiting for Karen and Arnage to talk. Fortis, Veyron and Cypha sounbds very unreliable about their true intentions as anyone of them launch a different verion of the concept of their group. As a cheeful and caring leader, i'll think Karen will be more honest about the truth.

Really? Because I'd think that if you want to get someone to join you, the only reason you'd tell them you would have killed him would be if you were totally honest.

Cause, y'know, telling the guy you're trying to recruit essentially "we would have killed every man, woman and child and scoured the village for any survivor" doesn't really sound like a good way to recruit someone.

Perhaps I'd have to go back and re-read it, but the way I figure it from what I remember, their telling him that they would've killed all of them, him included, was if they themselves attacked the village--which they didn't; they only came after the fact. So I'm assuming had they did find him after the fact, they wouldn't have killed them. Hell, that'd have gotten their hands dirty in the deed regardless of their initial innocence in the incident.

Which kinda still means they would -by their own admission- have killed unarmed civilians. Children included.

Ice does float. ;p

Ships. Of. Ice. Bows of eyes, stern of ice, windows of ice, cannons of ice, sails of ice, how in the hell can that all work without magic!?

Justin_Brett

2011-02-22, 20:39

Really, being honest in that situation is probably not a good idea. It's somewhat telling he thought that was a good plan.

After the most recent chapter, I think it is quite obvious that Tsuzuki is opening the route for befriending. The huckebein who stabbed Hayate basically say things that only good guys say. About the huckebeins killing innocent people, so far it is only hearsay - we never actually see the huckebeins slaughtering innocents in action.

Hm? Could you elaborate?

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that being offered a place in the Nakajima family constitutes as destroying lesbian ships and curing female homosexuals.

Well, that one panel with Veyron cupping Touma's chin in his hand, grinning...and Touma is a shota at the time...

I didn't mean anything in that chapter ruined gayness, just that he can be equally gay.

Chaos2Frozen

2011-02-22, 20:46

They are floating ships of ice! They can't be made of anything but magic! There are even magical ice constructs coming from the walls! What is-! I! You-!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

*huff huff*

That series never fails to fry my brains.

Ahhh! But you see, the constructs from the escort ships were separated from the ships so they can have magic- and those coming up from the ground are from the flagship.

Besides, I said the walls and floors don't have magic, but that doesn't mean the other parts of the ship doesn't :p

As for floating ice, we all know that ice melts at 0 deg C under atmospheric pressure, but apparently "Under certain conditions however, the freezing and boiling point can be changed. There exists ice at 20 degrees Celsius and steam at 80 degrees Celsius." The 'ice' wouldn't be cold, and it wouldn't melt, and so it's also not slippery.

To be fair, all Force showed was a giant ice mountain shattering. It never shows it disappearing entirely.

If it's a mountain of ice shattering, isn't it possible to it shattered into tiny, tiny pieces of ice crystals where it only looks like it disappeared but they actually just evaporated?

Kaijo

2011-02-22, 20:47

Ships. Of. Ice. Bows of eyes, stern of ice, windows of ice, cannons of ice, sails of ice, how in the hell can that all work without magic!?

Without trying to get into this too much, it depends on where the magic is. If it's on the bottom of the ship to help it float, the rudder to steer, and perhaps the sails, but nowhere else, you can pilot an iceberg fairly easily. Plus, the anti-magic is only in Thomas hand, so as long as he doesn't touch anything with it, he's fine. And it only affects a small area, too, not the entire ship.

But I'd be lying if I said Index was perfect. I think it's trying to get too complex for it's own good, and introduce too many things that aren't needed.

fukarming

2011-02-22, 20:48

So far the huckebeins are contradicting within themselves: If they are as evil and ruthless as they lead us to believe, they should have kill Hayate and Signum. If they are not, why are they gloating about killing innocents and stuff?

I am sure it will eventually be explained, but here is a theory of mine. They are a bunch of antisocial people that hate to explain themselves. I couldn't find a equivalent character in western fictions, so here is a fictional character from my hometown:

He is well known to be antisocial, arrogant, not hesitate to kill, completely disregard the standard moral code of the society, and extremely powerful. Because of his reputation, he is being framed for a murder he didn't commit. Instead of explaining to those who accused him, he chose to fight them, with a plan that he will only explain the truth to them once he beat the crap out of those who accuse him.

In a way, Sesshomaru (inuyasha) is similar in character.

Keroko

2011-02-22, 20:49

On the subject of befriending the Hucks, that was apparent in after the 4th chapter. The Hucks have a loli, after all, and first rule of Nanoha: The side with the loli will see befriending.

Might not work on everyone (Fortis at the moment strikes me at someone who could fit in with Precia and Jail as a person who chooses their goals over befriending) but befriending will come.

Really, being honest in that situation is probably not a good idea. It's somewhat telling he thought that was a good plan.

Yes, telling someone "oh, we would have killed you. Want to join us?" sounds like a great plan. :rolleyes:

A good plan would have been to tell Touma "No, we weren't involved with that" and leave it at that. Maybe bait him with "but we can help you find out who did." That would have been a good plan.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-22, 20:54

That's...exactly what I said, Keroko.

And that doesn't really work, Fuka. Even an anti-social person wouldn't necessarily go 'fuck the police' in the way they have.

Kaijo

2011-02-22, 21:03

So far the huckebeins are contradicting within themselves: If they are as evil and ruthless as they lead us to believe, they should have kill Hayate and Signum. If they are not, why are they gloating about killing innocents and stuff?

Fortis explained why they kill and when, and outside of that, they don't like to kill. It's essentially a code they live by. It may seem a bit strange to us, but they do it.

Keroko

2011-02-22, 21:04

That's...exactly what I said, Keroko.

Whoops, I thought you meant that Fortis was lying, and only told Touma they would have killed him because he figured that'd be a good idea.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-22, 21:06

fukarming

2011-02-22, 21:07

That's...exactly what I said, Keroko.

And that doesn't really work, Fuka. Even an anti-social person wouldn't necessarily go 'fuck the police' in the way they have.

Think of it this way: If Inuyasha and company accuse Sesshomaru of something he didn't do, what would you think Sesshomaru would react? I doubt he will sit down and talk.

About the police thing, they are so anti-social that they do not acknowledge TSAB as police. Consider this, you are wrongly imprison for 20 years and recently released. You obtain the power of superman. You are wrongly accused again. Would you have talk? Or would you have beat the crap out of the police (knowing you can win for sure)?

Akiyoshi

2011-02-22, 21:09

So far the huckebeins are contradicting within themselves: If they are as evil and ruthless as they lead us to believe, they should have kill Hayate and Signum. If they are not, why are they gloating about killing innocents and stuff?

Agreed with Hayate but Cypha not killing signum looks more like a miscalculation rather than a life sparing. One can't attack the body of someone with that brutality without hoping said person to survive. Heck Cypha even make sure to give signum the final strike before leaving. Also she didn't have mcuh time, reinforcements are on the way and Arnage convinces her that securing tohma and the girls is their priority.

If Signum ever sees the light of day on the battlefield again i'm pretty sure will react surprised to see her still alive(this can come in various falvours, for example, she can react amazed like "what? she survives!?", react evily amused with something like "so, she's able to surviv huh? mhhh.... interesting *evil smirk*" or even mock her surviving like "that useless public servant survives, it's like a crockoach").

EDIT: Page claime for that useless public servant (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) xD.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-22, 21:10

Probably because Inuyasha is an asshole.

And if someone responds to being wrongly accused of a crime by causing strife and chaos, then I'd call them a villain.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-22, 21:13

Probably because Inuyasha is an asshole.

And if someone responds to being wrongly accused of a crime by causing strife and chaos, then I'd call them a villain.

Agreed, probably that guy isn't guilty for the crime he's been accused, but he becomes a criminal the moment he uses his powers to beat the crap out of someone who didn't menace his well-being.

fukarming

2011-02-22, 21:30

Fortis explained why they kill and when, and outside of that, they don't like to kill. It's essentially a code they live by. It may seem a bit strange to us, but they do it.

I don't remember the exact wordings, but basically the Huckebeins had to kill to survive, right?

So Basically something like this happen?
Huckebeins: We haven't kill for X days, our blood is boiling and is killing us. If we don't kill for the next 24 hours all of us would be dead. Look there is an innocent village over there. I am sorry for them but we have no choice but to slaughter them!

Can't they kill Hayate to "save" a meal on attack on the innocents? :heh: Since they are not killing anyone during the skirmish with TSAB, they probably need to attack an innocent village soon. I found that less evil to kill TSAB personnel than innocent villagers.

Agreed, probably that guy isn't guilty for the crime he's been accused, but he becomes a criminal the moment he uses his powers to beat the crap out of someone who didn't menace his well-being.

Huckebeins are no saints. But you think they are irredeemable? They don't care if you (TSAB) consider them criminals or not.

Kaijo

2011-02-22, 21:40

I don't remember the exact wordings, but basically the Huckebeins had to kill to survive, right?

So Basically something like this happen?
Huckebeins: We haven't kill for X days, our blood is boiling and is killing us. If we don't kill for the next 24 hours all of us would be dead. Look there is an innocent village over there. I am sorry for them but we have no choice but to slaughter them!

Can't they kill Hayate to "save" a meal on attack on the innocents? :heh: Since they are not killing anyone during the skirmish with TSAB, they probably need to attack an innocent village soon. I found that less evil to kill TSAB personnel than innocent villagers.

There are still some specifics on the virus that we are lacking. It's unclear if they can kill in advance, or if they simply have to kill something when the urge comes. As such a force, they'd be very much aware that too much wholesale slaughter would draw attention to them (and indeed, it kinda has), so trying to keep the killing to a minimum might seem a wise move.

They could be following off the whole Stella thing from earlier, where they said, "It'll only get worse if ou attack us!" They can say later, "We didn't kill anyone, and we tried hard not to. But if you keep this up, we can't guarantee safety, so withdraw!"

Akiyoshi

2011-02-22, 21:47

Huckebeins are no saints. But you think they are irredeemable? They don't care if you (TSAB) consider them criminals or not.

That's the very reason of why i find befriending very unsuitable for these guys. Just as they have no reason to trust the TSAB, the TSAB also have no reason to trust these guys. they're not saints but you sound like you want them to be sanctified.

"Evil or not Evil" is a dumb and endless discussion. Letting aside their "evilness" the Hucks have an inner code of not givng a crap about anyone beside themselves. The TSAB have a code to protect the innocent and keep lost logias from causing trouble. Happens that the Huckebein is commiting both crimes. Also they injured heavily valuable friends, probably they will get eventually defeated, or accept sentence, but i hope that at least forgiveness for these guys didn't come as easily as "awwww, these poor people just kill tons of innocents because they're sick, let's give them a big hug" that will be incredibly unplausible. the better aproach is that of the Numbers, giving more chances to Arnage and Stella by virtue of being young and influentiable. but hope the adults didn't make out so easily, specially Fortis and Cypha.

Kaijo

2011-02-22, 21:53

The question of befriending and evil aside, if they are captured, the same thing will happen to them that happened to the numbers. The ones that can be rehabilitated and show willingness to repent, will spend some time locked up, but ultimately be released in a probationary manner to work for the TSAB. The others will simply be locked up.

The only question left is what to do with the virus. If they don't have a cure by that time, then something will have to be worked out. I postulated VR chambers in my fic, where they could kill virtual targets.

But the Bureau will give them a chance, after having them serve some time.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-22, 22:00

I dunno if the non-fascist Bureau would be up for that method, actually. It could lead to some...problems.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-22, 22:05

But the Bureau will give them a chance, after having them serve some time.

It will be an interesting subversion of befriending if new things happens here, FORCE makes it's way deconstructed previously stablished Nanoha tropes, there are seven of them so it will be fine is some of them try to "take the hero with him" by suicide, or if some of them ultimately reafuse to be captured no matter the cost.

If they are ultimately given a chance, it will be at least interesting to see different character reactions to this. I want, for example, to see how Vita and Shamal will react to see Karen face to face. Even if Cypha meet again with Signum the most possible outcome is that she gives a stare to Cypha, then Cypha makes a teasing comment and Signum just walk off silently while Cypha chuckles at the irony.

It will be refreshing to see villains actually not bonding with the heroes at the end.

fukarming

2011-02-22, 22:10

That's the very reason of why i find befriending very unsuitable for these guys. Just as they have no reason to trust the TSAB, the TSAB also have no reason to trust these guys. they're not saints but you sound like you want them to be sanctified.

"Evil or not Evil" is a dumb and endless discussion. Letting aside their "evilness" the Hucks have an inner code of not givng a crap about anyone beside themselves. The TSAB have a code to protect the innocent and keep lost logias from causing trouble. Happens that the Huckebein is commiting both crimes. Also they injured heavily valuable friends, probably they will get eventually defeated, or accept sentence, but i hope that at least forgiveness for these guys didn't come as easily as "awwww, these poor people just kill tons of innocents because they're sick, let's give them a big hug" that will be incredibly unplausible. the better aproach is that of the Numbers, giving more chances to Arnage and Stella by virtue of being young and influentiable. but hope the adults didn't make out so easily, specially Fortis and Cypha.

That is very true, if they start befriending next chapter. It would be incredibly bad writing. My point is that Tsuzuki leave the route for befriending open, vs if they kill one of the main cast then the route is closed (or if they are seen torturing babies for fun...etc) Tsuzuki had all the time he wants to make befriending reasonable.

Yasanagi

2011-02-22, 22:12

It will be refreshing to see villains actually not bonding with the heroes at the end.

So you don't count Jail and Quattro?

Akiyoshi

2011-02-22, 22:18

So you don't count Jail and Quattro?

Quattro alone, maybe Jail didn't run holding hands with the main cast but is still showed willing to negotiete with them. And, for some reason, showed to be more symphatething than the four-eyed asshole(probably is because quattro is a far more repugnant character than him xD).

Iromaru

2011-02-23, 01:14

I find it hard to believe that professional killers who must kill to live failed to kill someone. Especially when it's a powerful and annoying enemy. And when finishing off an incapacitated enemy would take just few seconds. Either they spared RF6 members or it's a case of terrible writing. Really terrible.

And I still think that Huckebeins magic immunity is absolutely unnecessary. They have regeneration, they have increased toughness, they have powerful weapons. They would be top tier enemies without magic immunity. Zero effect is there only so TSAB would have to design new toys. And so that old cast would loose miserably first time they met.

I also think that Huckebeins are a failure as villains. They could have been really great antagonists. Magical disease is spreading turning mages into techno-vampires forced to kill people to live. Gunblades and dark magic. Hated outcasts forced to live on the edges of society while constantly pursued by government and secret organizations trying to steal their powers for themselves. Concept itself is really great. But honestly, execution is terrible so far.

And Touma is a complete failure as the main character. He appeared out of nowhere and suddenly he's friends with the old cast. There are many existing characters who could have taken his role. He suddenly got super powerful due to plot alone. Seriously, none of that power is his. It's all thanks to Lily. And for half of the story so far he's a emo plot device.

Isis feels like the MC of this story much more than him.

itanshi1

2011-02-23, 01:30

Probably because Inuyasha is an asshole.

And if someone responds to being wrongly accused of a crime by causing strife and chaos, then I'd call them a villain.

huckabein are now the A-Team, discuss :D

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 02:08

I find it hard to believe that professional killers who must kill to live failed to kill someone. Especially when it's a powerful and annoying enemy. And when finishing off an incapacitated enemy would take just few seconds. Either they spared RF6 members or it's a case of terrible writing. Really terrible.

Don't be so hard on Cypha, it's not her fault to think Signum is dead, even the readers were fooled for a couple of weeks, even with modern mid-childan medic intervention an injury like that brings almost instant death to almost anyone. Unless suddenly turns out the Hucks have very specific data on the wokenritters high endurance is pretty unlikely that Cypha was so damn accurate to do a non-lethal impaling with so short time and from such a long distance. for all intentions and purpouses she effectively kills signum, it's just that she suddenly turns out to be "not so dead" xDU.

this reminds me of Superman Returns when near the end he supposedly dies from kryptonite poisoning and Perry White prepared two different newspaper header, one that celebrates his surviving, and other mourning his death. I wonder if Tsuzuki have secretly hidden the other version of the story where Signum dies(before discarding it to avoid fan rage, of course xDU).

Demi.

2011-02-23, 02:27

It's not like the nights are ordinary humans. What's fatal for someone "normal" probably isn't so for Signum.

itanshi1

2011-02-23, 02:32

Yeah she's a program so she has an extra thick plot armor :P

-is she not a magical constuct? can her arm be delinked?

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 02:41

They would be top tier enemies without magic immunity. Zero effect is there only so TSAB would have to design new toys. And so that old cast would loose miserably first time they met.

This, so much. Touma suddenly knowing everyone is another thing I agree with, and they're both basically from the same issue - needing to have the old characters here. If you have two mangas, can't you take a chance with one? I was kind of under the impression that was Vivid's purpose. Not that it hasn't been good, but it's the sort of thing they know people like.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 02:48

It's not like the nights are ordinary humans. What's fatal for someone "normal" probably isn't so for Signum.

Her endurance comes more from the fact that she's a guardian of the Book of the Night Sky rather than merely being a Knight(besides, say endurance started to fade away some time ago and is apparently much less effective by the time of FORCE). Schach and zest are Knights for example but they're "normal" humans compared to the Wolkenritter. tehn again apparently Cypha didn't even know Signum when they confronted.

Iromaru

2011-02-23, 03:12

is she not a magical constuct? can her arm be delinked?

Technically she's a summon of TotNS. She should be dispellable. Wolkies disappeared when their cores were drained of magic.

At least this explains why Laevatein was completely destroyed. Despite being a metal sword it was made purely from magic.

But this forces another question: what kind of a retard would send magical beings made purely from magic to fight enemies capable of dispelling magic with ease?

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 03:18

But this forces another question: what kind of a retard would send magical beings made purely from magic to fight enemies capable of dispelling magic with ease?

The same person who decides it's a good idea to run into these guys with only a small handle of flawed prototype weapons and no support(aka. numbers, they would be reaaaally helpfull) and who also didn't take even a second to mourn her fallen child.

But to be fair on Hayate. Signum apparently was only pursuing info of these guys, finding about their location, activites and then most likely return to get her AEC and fight theese guys but things turn ugly when Cypha menace's Tohma and Lily's lives, then Signum decide to take the understandable and honorable(but still stupid) descision to face a mage killer with her useless powers.

EDIT: Page claimed for certain clumsy swordswoman (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383).

FRS

2011-02-23, 04:19

...
But this forces another question: what kind of a retard would send magical beings made purely from magic to fight enemies capable of dispelling magic with ease?

Because it's all the TSAB have to counter them ?

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 04:25

Because it's all the TSAB have to counter them ?

Taking into consideration that they're facing opponents armed with absolute Anti-Magic and the fact that they already knew it(hence the existence of the AEC weapons). sending the Worfenritter against the Haxbein was, indeed, a very bad idea, the Numbers are ten times more suited to face these guys without question(if not for the censorship it will be really amusing to see Sein fight these people, i'd love to see how a Huck try to shrug off having his/her insides messed up by a ghost hand xD).

Iromaru

2011-02-23, 05:05

Because it's all the TSAB have to counter them ?

They had enough time to gather experimental weapons and equip all RF6 members with them.

They easily had enough time to gather all combat cyborgs and many other elite mages to swarm Hucks with superior numbers.

Tiresias

2011-02-23, 05:14

Here's a thought - maybe Fortis was lying about them having a code at all? The only one who certainly hasn't killed people when she could have is Karen. Maybe it's just something she prefers, and they go along with it because she's the boss.

But not all of them might like it...

Arr, but the code is mere guidelines!

Probably because Inuyasha is an asshole.

Considering how friendly the gang were with Ryouga, the one who massacred Rin's village people, was it really a surprise?

It will be refreshing to see villains actually not bonding with the heroes at the end.

So you don't count Jail and Quattro?

It would be refreshing to have the major antagonist to actually die. (Due and Zest lacked the screen time to count, and Precia was never confirmed, corpse and all, to actually died)

But this forces another question: what kind of a retard would send magical beings made purely from magic to fight enemies capable of dispelling magic with ease?

The one that...

the Numbers are ten times more suited to face these guys without question(if not for the censorship it will be really amusing to see Sein fight these people, I'd love to see how a Huck try to shrug off having his/her insides messed up by a ghost hand xD).

...forgot that they had befriended a squad of Cyborgs. *sigh* Diece (long-range fire support) and Nove (boarding party) would've been useful...:(

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 05:28

...forgot that they had befriended a squad of Cyborgs. *sigh* Diece (long-range fire support) and Nove (boarding party) would've been useful...:(

Not to mention Cinque, gosh, they're scarred of Isis because she can mix chemicals with her magic, Cinque's IS allow her not only to throw fairly powerfull explosive daggers(that she's able to spam like crazy) but also to make any metal structure go kablooie with a hand touch(yes, i suddenly realized that she's the female lolified version of Gambit from X-Men xD).

Keroko

2011-02-23, 06:13

Fortis explained why they kill and when, and outside of that, they don't like to kill. It's essentially a code they live by. It may seem a bit strange to us, but they do it.

Fortis never said they don't like to kill outside that code. Heck, on that same page Fortis pretty much agreed with Touma when he called them evil criminals.

I find it hard to believe that professional killers who must kill to live failed to kill someone. Especially when it's a powerful and annoying enemy. And when finishing off an incapacitated enemy would take just few seconds. Either they spared RF6 members or it's a case of terrible writing. Really terrible.

Yeah, its probably Tsuzuki chickening out. Signum is one of the most popular Wolkenritter after all. Well, that, and Nanoha has never been about piles of bloody corpses being heaped on every second. Just look at the church scene, that got a rather hefty 'oshit, its on now!' reaction from the fans.

And I still think that Huckebeins magic immunity is absolutely unnecessary. They have regeneration, they have increased toughness, they have powerful weapons. They would be top tier enemies without magic immunity. Zero effect is there only so TSAB would have to design new toys. And so that old cast would loose miserably first time they met.

It's like the Green Lanterns weakness against yellow, Superman against kryptonite, electric pokemon against rock. A common way to remind the heroes that they aren't invincible.

I also think that Huckebeins are a failure as villains. They could have been really great antagonists. Magical disease is spreading turning mages into techno-vampires forced to kill people to live. Gunblades and dark magic. Hated outcasts forced to live on the edges of society while constantly pursued by government and secret organizations trying to steal their powers for themselves. Concept itself is really great. But honestly, execution is terrible so far.

*tilts head* But... that's exactly what we got so far?

And Touma is a complete failure as the main character. He appeared out of nowhere and suddenly he's friends with the old cast. There are many existing characters who could have taken his role. He suddenly got super powerful due to plot alone. Seriously, none of that power is his. It's all thanks to Lily. And for half of the story so far he's a emo plot device.

Yeah, about getting powers due to plot... so did Nanoha. That's what being a main character is all about: You get your powers and involvement into the story due to plot. Nanoha got her powers because plot made her find Yuuno, Hayate got the book because plot made her have it, Jun got Shunku because plot made him get her, Amu got three guardian eggs because plot made her get them. This list could go on forever.

We got our explanation of how he met the old cast, a flashback. The same way we got to see how Hayate or Subaru met the old cast.

The same person who decides it's a good idea to run into these guys with only a small handle of flawed prototype weapons and no support(aka. numbers, they would be reaaaally helpfull)

Much as I would love to see the numbers in action against the Hucks, then we'd be complaining about a stupidly huge cast again. Heck, some people already are...

and who also didn't take even a second to mourn her fallen child.

Yes, because sitting around a hospital bed crying is so much more productive then capturing the ones involved. Hayate is a big girl now, as long as Signum will live she can deal with it.

Not to mention Cinque, gosh, they're scarred of Isis because she can mix chemicals with her magic, Cinque's IS allow her not only to throw fairly powerfull explosive daggers(that she's able to spam like crazy) but also to make any metal structure go kablooie with a hand touch(yes, i suddenly realized that she's the female lolified version of Gambit from X-Men xD).

... Dammit, if only I could draw. That there deserves to be turned into a fanart.

FRS

2011-02-23, 09:04

They had enough time to gather experimental weapons and equip all RF6 members with them.

They easily had enough time to gather all combat cyborgs and many other elite mages to swarm Hucks with superior numbers.

You are right in theorie but the author will have to face another big grow of the cast that may not be manageable and it will certainly change the figh dynamics, it's going to be harder to show 1vs1 (which i think fan generaly prefer to group battle).

Tiresias

2011-02-23, 09:17

Much as I would love to see the numbers in action against the Hucks, then we'd be complaining about a stupidly huge cast again. Heck, some people already are...

You are right in theorie but the author will have to face another big grow of the cast that may not be manageable and it will certainly change the figh dynamics,

With all due respect to the Wolkies, they shouldn't be on the Task Force in the first place. At least, not as the main combatants; they could stay behind and do something useful like, you know, actually finishing their own toys. Besides, the fact that Subaru only got a defensive weapon implies that the TSAB believes that the Numbers can damage the Hucks without new toys, they only lack defensive weapons.

Yes, what happened to the Wolkies are probably supposed to imply that things are now serious (OooOOh!) but it also make the TSAB higher ups look like complete idiots for picking the wrong team for the job.

it's going to be harder to show 1vs1 (which i think fan generaly prefer to group battle).

Just going to voice out that I'm an exception to the general sentiment. (What? After all the preaching about knowing your limits, trusting others, and all that teamwork stuff, Is it wrong for me to expect that Nanoha actually do believe and uphold them?!)

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 11:03

Yeah, about getting powers due to plot... so did Nanoha. That's what being a main character is all about: You get your powers and involvement into the story due to plot. Nanoha got her powers because plot made her find Yuuno, Hayate got the book because plot made her have it, Jun got Shunku because plot made him get her, Amu got three guardian eggs because plot made her get them. This list could go on forever.

Touma probably at least partially has these super-powers to justify him getting to hang around Section Six without seeming weak.

Nanya01

2011-02-23, 11:06

Touma probably at least partially has these super-powers to justify him getting to hang around Section Six without seeming weak.

It happens in a lot of series. *Shrugs*

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 11:08

Doesn't mean it's not bad.

itanshi1

2011-02-23, 12:07

Didn't know the heroes were biased against non super people.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 12:10

Hang around them without being The Load, I should say.

itanshi1

2011-02-23, 12:16

Shari is not a load! :P

Iromaru

2011-02-23, 12:29

Forwards were much weaker than Nanoha or Fate. You don't have to be top tier to see some action.

And sure Nanoha got crazy magical powers and all, but she was still much weaker than experienced mages. She needed months of training to become really powerful, and years to become top tier.

Touma suddenly became a magical terminator in just few chapters.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 13:13

It's like the Green Lanterns weakness against yellow, Superman against kryptonite, electric pokemon against rock. A common way to remind the heroes that they aren't invincible.

At least Superman get the protection of lead that is able to stop cold Krypnites radiation. Is like the heroes where fighting foes with their entire body and weapons made of Kryptonite xDU

Much as I would love to see the numbers in action against the Hucks, then we'd be complaining about a stupidly huge cast again. Heck, some people already are...

Well...

With all due respect to the Wolkies, they shouldn't be on the Task Force in the first place. At least, not as the main combatants; they could stay behind and do something useful like, you know, actually finishing their own toys. Besides, the fact that Subaru only got a defensive weapon implies that the TSAB believes that the Numbers can damage the Hucks without new toys, they only lack defensive weapons.

Yes, what happened to the Wolkies are probably supposed to imply that things are now serious (OooOOh!) but it also make the TSAB higher ups look like complete idiots for picking the wrong team for the job.

This, the numbers are far more suited to this situation, we can have the Wolkies around and still count with the numbers as a specialized resxcue Team, it would be a nice surprise if some of them appeared to reacue Signum or to trun the tide of the Assault Battle, with all we know about the Huckebein they seem to be far more reliable than the AEC equipement. It will be a nice move if the Numbers appear to hold the Huckebein while Section Six reorganizes and perfect their equipement.

Yes, because sitting around a hospital bed crying is so much more productive then capturing the ones involved. Hayate is a big girl now, as long as Signum will live she can deal with it.

I'm not wanting her to sleept at Signum's side while holding her hand crying. It would be nice or inspiring if she at least make a comment to herself, give a expression of corncern or at least a short scene where she approach Vita and reasures her that everything will be fine. It's sad to see Hayate's kindness fade away with the age. But maybe she will start to care now that she got stabbed and Vita is in bed xD.

... Dammit, if only I could draw. That there deserves to be turned into a fanart.

Find someone willing to do the task, there's always some circles of Fan Artist around xD.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 13:22

Imagine if they took the time to train Touma like the forwards, though. We'd be here forever.

itanshi1

2011-02-23, 13:28

This, the numbers are far more suited to this situation, we can have the Wolkies around and still count with the numbers as a specialized resxcue Team, it would be a nice surprise if some of them appeared to reacue Signum or to trun the tide of the Assault Battle, with all we know about the Huckebein they seem to be far more reliable than the AEC equipement. It will be a nice move if the Numbers appear to hold the Huckebein while Section Six reorganizes and perfect their equipement.

so much this, but alas :/

i'm still curious about the a-team angle. maybe these guys used to work for the tsab :P

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 13:44

I'm wondering what will be the psychological impact Karen's meeting will have to Hayate, she always have some degree of self-depreciation and she just meet the leader of the Huckebein family in person, someone very simlar to her and yet, very different. Unlike her, Karen is able not only to defend herself but is also strong enough to protect her family, makes a more effective use of her book than her and also seem to be a more reliable leader than her. It will be interesting to see Hayate to fight the pressure of standing to this reality and confront Karen. There's not much her knights can do for her in this situation, if they try to ease Hayate by blaming themselves that would only made her to feel even more guilty.

Probably Hayate will handle this better now that she's an adult woman, this could have been an incredible punch in the gut of Hayate's spirit if she were younger.

Probably the Wolkies end their journey as a badass family but they can start a new one as tragic heroes xD.

Keroko

2011-02-23, 14:22

At least Superman get the protection of lead that is able to stop cold Krypnites radiation. Is like the heroes where fighting foes with their entire body and weapons made of Kryptonite xDU

You get my point though. :p

This, the numbers are far more suited to this situation, we can have the Wolkies around and still count with the numbers as a specialized resxcue Team, it would be a nice surprise if some of them appeared to reacue Signum or to trun the tide of the Assault Battle, with all we know about the Huckebein they seem to be far more reliable than the AEC equipement. It will be a nice move if the Numbers appear to hold the Huckebein while Section Six reorganizes and perfect their equipement.

Let me state first and foremost that I fully agree that the numbers would have been a far better choice for this job, and I would have loved to see that happen. What I'm about to say now makes no sense in-universe, and mostly involves out of universe choices. It's my own pet-theory, and I have barely any proof to go along with it.

Recall for a moment the days of the first chapters of Force. Remember what the main complaints where? "Where is Nanoha?" "Where is Fate" "This series sucks, why even call it Nanoha if the titular character isn't in it?" and so on and so on. I don't know how the complaints were on the Japanese side, but considering the popularity of the characters in question, it wouldn't have surprised me if the voices were at least somewhat similar.

Now imagine the old cast being benches since they're, well, facing their kryptonite and the numbers taking over.

How well do you think this would go over with the majority of the fanbase? Not you specifically, just... generally. In my mind, I see the storm of flames being ten times as large as what we're having now. Vivid has the excuse of being a spin-off, but Force? I'd think the fans would go ballistic if the characters were to be benched like that.

Or so goes my theory on why the old cast gets the job, and not the new generation. Few authors have the balls to go against their fanbase, and Tsuzuki has chickened out before.

I'm not wanting her to sleept at Signum's side while holding her hand crying. It would be nice or inspiring if she at least make a comment to herself, give a expression of corncern or at least a short scene where she approach Vita and reasures her that everything will be fine. It's sad to see Hayate's kindness fade away with the age. But maybe she will start to care now that she got stabbed and Vita is in bed xD.

Dunno, Hayate's look on page four seems to say "I am going to make whoever is responsible for this pay dearly for messing with my family."

Yeah, it's not sadness and tears, but like I said, she's a big girl now. Crying at Signum's side will come when the time is there.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 14:50

I wasn't really thinking that, for what it's worth. I was just shaking my head at how 'we have a MALE protagonist now!' had become such a unique thing in this series.

I personally doubt anything bad would happen from calling their bluff, especially considering we have a 123 page thread dedicated to archiving Nanoha merchandise. But hey, maybe I don't get something.

Iromaru

2011-02-23, 14:57

I'm wondering what will be the psychological impact Karen's meeting will have to Hayate.

I doubt it will even be touched upon. After one chapter focusing on rehabilitation and patching up Wolkies they will get back to the job like if nothing happened. Just like it was before the battle with Hucks when they all acted like if they were going on a picnic.

How well do you think this would go over with the majority of the fanbase?

Compared with old cast getting slaughtered and humiliated left and right? Old devices everybody loved getting shafted? Signum acting like a retard? Hayate being a terrible commander?

There obviously would be a lot of complaining at the beginning, but if the story and action were good I'm sure everybody would get used to new cast. And we have Vivid for old characters anyways.

Tsuzuki is just a coward afraid to make a Nanoha related series without super popular old characters.

Hayate's look on page four seems to say "I am going to make whoever is responsible for this pay dearly for messing with my family."

She sure did...

I was just shaking my head at how 'we have a MALE protagonist now!' had become such a unique thing in this series.

It is a VERY unique thing in mahou shojo. Sure Nanoha isn't a true mahou shojo for a long time but still nobody thought that there will be a male lead in Nanoha series. Ever.

And honestly I don't like it. At first when I heard we have a male lead with cute girls who like him I was terrified that they want to turn Nanoha into another crappy harem. Besides we have enough action series with male leads already.

And now Touma don't feel like the lead character at all. Isis is more of a MC than him. And a much better character than him too.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 15:31

Not just like an unusual thing for a magical girl show, but like 'Hey look, NANOHA has an important male character now! How new and inventive of us!"

But that's getting into Unfortunate Implications, so I'll shut up.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 15:32

I can't really comment on the popularity of FORCE ebfore introducing the old cast because i didn't join the Nanoha forum until FORCE Ch. 7(i was joined animesukia year before but only for the Signum Fanclub and some images of Haruhi xDU), but personally while it's true i have some complains at the beggining about things like drawstyle and pacing i also didn't have anything special against FORCE. Also...

Compared with old cast getting slaughtered and humiliated left and right? Old devices everybody loved getting shafted? Signum acting like a retard? Hayate being a terrible commander?

There obviously would be a lot of complaining at the beginning, but if the story and action were good I'm sure everybody would get used to new cast. And we have Vivid for old characters anyways.

Tsuzuki is just a coward afraid to make a Nanoha related series without super popular old characters.

...this. It's very unpleasant seeing the old cast treated like red shirts(ok, Mauve Shirts xDU) and having their intelligence reduced for the sake of drama.

It is a VERY unique thing in mahou shojo. Sure Nanoha isn't a true mahou shojo for a long time but still nobody thought that there will be a male lead in Nanoha series. Ever.

And honestly I don't like it. At first when I heard we have a male lead with cute girls who like him I was terrified that they want to turn Nanoha into another crappy harem. Besides we have enough action series with male leads already.

To be honest i didn't have any major problem with this, it's original and kind of interesting(except for the "Crappy harem" part that is fortunately avioded by this point). Tohma starts decently(if a bit cliched, the classic good and inocent guy who didn't catch the attention he's receiving and have a cool big sis figure, classic formula).

And now Touma don't feel like the lead character at all. Isis is more of a MC than him. And a much better character than him too.

This is the main problem, Tohma so far just have his introduction and then got stripped of any significant interactionb with the setting aside of being a walking terminator and the MCGuffin boy everyone wants now xDU. Of course Isis is gettin more love than him, the girl is showing her guts and bravery, people love brave characters(at least i do xD).

Dunno, Hayate's look on page four seems to say "I am going to make whoever is responsible for this pay dearly for messing with my family."
She sure did...

Glad that at least Vita showed some corncern and give a pissed face in Ch. 8

Yeah, it's not sadness and tears, but like I said, she's a big girl now. Crying at Signum's side will come when the time is there.

Waiting for that is one of my motivations for keep reading FORCE xD.

EDIT:
I doubt it will even be touched upon. After one chapter focusing on rehabilitation and patching up Wolkies they will get back to the job like if nothing happened. Just like it was before the battle with Hucks when they all acted like if they were going on a picnic.

I never watched Signum acting like that, she was one of the most active one the mission to follow these people. Besides, they looked happy to see each other again but also Vita remains Rein that this is not the time to celebrate, Hayate didn't looked like if she were on a picnic in the slightiest(nor showing any other emotion, really i challenge you to find a single picture of Hayate smilling during FORCE, a single one).

I don't know how much confidence she had to accept this mission but things go awry, she still trust on her ace, a spell able to stop these people but then Karen, a suitable evil counterpart for her appears and foil her counter-measures in a flash, giving confidence to her crew and stoling the scene(while also hurting Vita right in front of her). Probably with her new "cold commander" attitude she didn't show to be affected but knowed how she thinks for the past three seasons i know that this wouldn't go unnoticed by her.

Keroko

2011-02-23, 15:54

Tsuzuki is just a coward afraid to make a Nanoha related series without super popular old characters.

Agreed. *grumbles once more about how Vita should have died in the Cradle.*

And now Touma don't feel like the lead character at all. Isis is more of a MC than him. And a much better character than him too.

There's a difference between a more interesting character, and a main character. Isis hasn't been central to the plot in the manga so far. Supporting Touma, helping exposition Touma, getting people into gear to save Touma, even her fighting was a momentary show-off before she got knocked down.

She's an obvious side character. A really interesting one, but a side-character nonetheless.

aers

2011-02-23, 16:23

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 16:26

Ooooooook ....let the new discussion begin xDU

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-23, 16:41

Ooooooook ....let the new discussion begin xDU

You mean, you guys are gonna talk about something other than bitching about how the new direction the series took with Force sucks? O__O

aers

2011-02-23, 16:43

Definitely is the front page of the new Nyantype~

http://anime.webnt.jp/nt-news/?detail=2360

In that article they mention there will be a Force-related announcement right before the release of volume 3 (which is 3/31)..which conveniently puts the announcement in next month's Nyantype. Herp.

With regards to this month's chapter.. Since release date is the 28th expect actual spoiler info on the chapter in 2-3 days.

Nanya01

2011-02-23, 16:46

Naked Hayate transformation!

WHEE!

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 17:48

Well. we can take a recess until spoilers for Ch. 14 finally come out.

Let's talk about hmmm... Did you guys know if Shari is part of the Wolfram's crew xD?

Tiresias

2011-02-23, 18:16

Well. we can take a recess until spoilers for Ch. 14 finally come out.

Let's talk about hmmm... Did you guys know if Shari is part of the Wolfram's crew xD?

She wasn't shown during the Eclipse (maybe supporting whatever Teana's doing). But then again, so did Caro.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-23, 18:19

As long a her last name is still Finieno everything will be fine xD

Justin_Brett

2011-02-23, 18:20

Yes, it's absolutely impossible to make anything out, but I'm crossposting it anyway, since it is Force related... (I believe it's from the cover of this month's Nyantype).

http://i.imgur.com/BVpbO.png

This image somehow sparked the idea that Touma is in the new PSP game.. *runs*

...Why wouldn't he be? Gears is going to have characters from Vivid and Force, and he's kind of the first one ever in that second category.

Sage Shinigami

2011-02-24, 04:37

Agreed. *grumbles once more about how Vita should have died in the Cradle.*

The Nanoha universe would be so much lamer if that had happened.

In that article they mention there will be a Force-related announcement right before the release of volume 3 (which is 3/31)..which conveniently puts the announcement in next month's Nyantype. Herp.

Wasn't the last announcement something trivial? Like, "Fate-chan is back!" or whatever?

Tiresias

2011-02-24, 05:04

As long a her last name is still Finieno everything will be fine xD

...why? Afraid that she would be Shari Mondial, Shari Granscenic or even Shari Acous one day? :p

Sheba

2011-02-24, 07:26

The Nanoha universe would be so much lamer if that had happened.

No.

As it stand now, the cast is bloated and not every characters are properly used or given their proper ambitions or purposes. And a franchise that is shackled to its core of super popular characters is condemned to stagnate within its own in-jokes and fandom generated memes.

Keroko

2011-02-24, 08:46

The Nanoha universe would be so much lamer if that had happened.

Why would it be? Vita, having pushed herself to protect Nanoha falls prey to the stealth-drone. Despite bleeding through a new hole in her chest, she pushes on, defeating an entire army of stealth drones. Once at the defense system, she breaks through its defenses and even the core's ultra-hard armor, completely shattering Graf Eisen and dieing after having fulfilled her goal.

It was the perfect setup, right down to the 'we'll meet again' 'you better be allright' goodbye between Nanoha and Vita. This moment was written to obviously lead up to a heroic death, and the only reason it didn't happen was because Tsuzuki chickened out.

00-Raiser

2011-02-24, 10:51

As long a her last name is still Finieno everything will be fine xD

That's what it was in chapter 2. Doubt it would have changed since then.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-24, 11:47

That's what it was in chapter 2. Doubt it would have changed since then.

Phew... xD

...why? Afraid that she would be Shari Mondial, Shari Granscenic or even Shari Acous one day? :p

Yup, or what about Shari Scrya xD(not that i don't like the pairing, they seem to be a good match but the fanbase will rip Yuuno a new one if he do that xDU)?

EDIT: Pageclaimed for your friendly neighborhood, "The Amazing Ferret-Man"

Keroko

2011-02-24, 11:50

Dunno, so far I've seen a lot of positive reactions to Yuuno/Hayate. As long as he doesn't touch Nanoha or Fate, fans are surprisingly tolerant of him.

Nanya01

2011-02-24, 11:50

Yup, or what about Shari Scrya xD(not that i don't like the pairing, they seem to be a good match but the fanbase will rip Yuuno a new one if he do that xDU)?

Those "fans" will rip anyone a new one for trying to be nice to Yuuno.

*Grumbles about certain "reviews" that I've gotten in the past.*

Justin_Brett

2011-02-24, 12:19

Dunno, so far I've seen a lot of positive reactions to Yuuno/Hayate. As long as he doesn't touch Nanoha or Fate, fans are surprisingly tolerant of him.

They're okay with a pairing that's 99 percent fictional - as long as he can't interfere with Nanoha/Fate, then it's all good, no matter how illogical.

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-24, 13:56

Dunno, so far I've seen a lot of positive reactions to Yuuno/Hayate. As long as he doesn't touch Nanoha or Fate, fans are surprisingly tolerant of him.

Additionally, I think that anyone who isn't Fate getting it on with Nanoha would get pretty much the same reaction. Fate herself, on the other hand, can seemingly be shipped with pretty much anyone (who isn't Yuuno, see above), from Signum to Erio, without many repercussions. :twitch:

Nanya01

2011-02-24, 14:16

Additionally, I think that anyone who isn't Fate getting it on with Nanoha would get pretty much the same reaction. Fate herself, on the other hand, can seemingly be shipped with pretty much anyone (who isn't Yuuno, see above), from Signum to Erio, without many repercussions. :twitch:

Fate IS, after all, the bicycle of the series.

Everyone gets a chance to ride her.

*Exploded with extreme prejudice.*

itanshi1

2011-02-24, 14:20

Reading this thread is like a bicycle x_x

Demi.

2011-02-24, 14:22

A bicycle of disappointment.

00-Raiser

2011-02-24, 14:51

Yup, or what about Shari Scrya xD(not that i don't like the pairing, they seem to be a good match but the fanbase will rip Yuuno a new one if he do that xDU)?

Me and Kaijo are the only ones who've done Shari/Yuuno, and no one's had a problem with it.

Additionally, I think that anyone who isn't Fate getting it on with Nanoha would get pretty much the same reaction. Fate herself, on the other hand, can seemingly be shipped with pretty much anyone (who isn't Yuuno, see above), from Signum to Erio, without many repercussions. :twitch:

I think it has more to do with keeping the yuri, or canon plausability.

Fate/Signum - okay since it's yuri

Fate/Erio - would never happen in canon due to their positions, age difference, and the likelihood of him being with Caro, so it's 'harmless'

Fate/Chrono - okay since he's married and thus would never end up with Fate, making it harmless

Fate/Yuuno - improbable, but not completely impossible, thus a threat

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-24, 14:54

Fate IS, after all, the bicycle of the series.

Everyone gets a chance to ride her.

*Exploded with extreme prejudice.*

That comes with being that high-end of a submissive. :heh:

DezoPenguin

2011-02-24, 17:45

Me and Kaijo are the only ones who've done Shari/Yuuno, and no one's had a problem with it.

I think it has more to do with keeping the yuri, or canon plausability.

Fate/Signum - okay since it's yuri

Fate/Erio - would never happen in canon due to their positions, age difference, and the likelihood of him being with Caro, so it's 'harmless'

Fate/Chrono - okay since he's married and thus would never end up with Fate, making it harmless

Fate/Yuuno - improbable, but not completely impossible, thus a threat

I suspect both phenomena are related to the same thing: Nanoha, Yuuno, and Fate are the "original three" of the series, so you get a certain amount of emotion centered around them that just doesn't connect with the folks that came along in later seasons. Yuuno getting shipped with not-Nanoha-or-Fate plays right into their love of Nanoha/Fate, and the Fate/not-Yuuno pairings and Nanoha/not-Yuuno (Vita's the one that usually shows up) get off relatively scot-free because all the hate is directed at Yuuno specifically).

(You get the same weirdness in the Kannazuki no Miko fandom, of all things, where there's a howling minority of "We Hate Souma!!" people in a series where the female leads end up together in canon and the guy supports them in it! *headdesk*)

itanshi1

2011-02-24, 19:26

that was such a bad wank series, i'm not sure its useful for reference :/ hehehe

I might try shari/fate sometime

so, who wants to ship yuuno with veyron? :P

Yasanagi

2011-02-24, 19:34

The words "No Just No" come to mind.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-24, 19:34

How dare you try to destroy the purity of Touma/Veyron, you bastard

(also Souma is a perfectly hatable character, Dezo, what series did you watch)

Nanya01

2011-02-24, 19:39

(also Souma is a perfectly hatable character, Dezo, what series did you watch)

(really? I thought Souma was a pretty cool guy. At least he fought against his fate, which is more than I can say for SOME of the characters in that series.)

Justin_Brett

2011-02-24, 19:42

(Mostly him getting to kill Orochi at the end of the series when that episode had nothing to do with him at all, and in-fact them getting their robot was the entire point of the series.)

Nanya01

2011-02-24, 19:45

(Really? Huh... I probably should re-watch the anime instead of reading the manga.)

Justin_Brett

2011-02-24, 19:46

(Oh, do they actually get to fight him in that?)

And back on-topic, but I like NanoFate better because, well, they just have more chemistry that's actually in the show and not some exaggeration. I mean, look at that scene in StrikerS were it cut away right when they were about to talk. It's like they were saying 'just put your own dialogue in here, you were gonna say what it meant no matter what the subject was anyway'.

Nanya01

2011-02-24, 19:52

(Here's what happens in the manga. Souma takes Himeko to Chikane, he goes up against the Orochi while Himeko gets to Chikane, the two make love while the fighting is going on, then Souma DIES and Orochi is still alive. Then the girls get their mech and restart everything.)

Sage Shinigami

2011-02-24, 22:13

Why would it be? Vita, having pushed herself to protect Nanoha falls prey to the stealth-drone. Despite bleeding through a new hole in her chest, she pushes on, defeating an entire army of stealth drones. Once at the defense system, she breaks through its defenses and even the core's ultra-hard armor, completely shattering Graf Eisen and dieing after having fulfilled her goal.

It was the perfect setup, right down to the 'we'll meet again' 'you better be allright' goodbye between Nanoha and Vita. This moment was written to obviously lead up to a heroic death, and the only reason it didn't happen was because Tsuzuki chickened out.

I kind of like that they ignored all these very cliched "flags" for death and went for the Everybody Lives ending. Because there are far, far too many universes willing to go the other way.

itanshi1

2011-02-24, 22:35

yeah but its norse mythos, we need honorable deaths :3

Page Claim for Niflheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim)

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 00:27

Page Claim for Niflheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim)

I'm still waiting for a Hayate Spell named like that xD

Sheba

2011-02-25, 04:44

I kind of like that they ignored all these very cliched "flags" for death and went for the Everybody Lives ending. Because there are far, far too many universes willing to go the other way.

And as a trade off, Nanoha series shall inherit the general mockery adressed toward Bleach, as in "Nobody (in the protagonist side) dies". Yes, totally awesome.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 04:59

Feb 25, how many days to get soem spoilers xD?

aers

2011-02-25, 05:25

..for some reason there's Force spoilers before Vivid. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOKAY!

It's just one picture though.

:)

http://i.imgur.com/8qvFw.png

^ inb4 force ends now so they can do something else.

Keroko

2011-02-25, 05:34

Nah, way too many unanswered questions to end Force now.

But looks like they might get through to Touma this chapter. Good.

aers

2011-02-25, 06:20

One more~

http://i.imgur.com/aoREA.png

Tiresias

2011-02-25, 06:29

yeah but its norse mythos, we need honorable deaths :3

Might be nice if this somehow made it to the series

Lo, there do I see my father
Lo, there do I see my mother and my sisters and my brothers
Lo, there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning
Lo, they do call to me
They bid me take my place among them
In the halls of Valhalla
Where the brave
May live
Forever!

I'm still waiting for a Hayate Spell named like that xD

I want Nidhogg and Jormungard!

One more~

http://i.imgur.com/aoREA.png

..for some reason there's Force spoilers before Vivid. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOKAY!

It's just one picture though.

:)

http://i.imgur.com/8qvFw.png

^ inb4 force ends now so they can do something else.

Meh. Anyone else thinks this would somehow worsen the situation? Or that any progress here would somehow be rendered fruitless again?

aers

2011-02-25, 07:00

NEXT is Lily; no picture yet.

Kind of unrelated to the actual manga but the two Nanoha pinups in this Nyantype are Hayate/Rein & Arnage.

Keroko

2011-02-25, 07:25

Meh. Anyone else thinks this would somehow worsen the situation? Or that any progress here would somehow be rendered fruitless again?

Could be, it really depends on what happens after they save Touma. Right now it can go either way.

Kind of unrelated to the actual manga but the two Nanoha pinups in this Nyantype are Hayate/Rein & Arnage.

*throws up hands* WOOHOO!

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-25, 09:11

Kind of unrelated to the actual manga but the two Nanoha pinups in this Nyantype are Hayate/Rein & Arnage.

Eins oder Zwei?

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 10:20

Nice to see that it looks like Subaru is the one who saves Thoma instead of Nanoha.

TheRainbowConnection

2011-02-25, 10:30

Destroyed his tome, eh? Hopefully, that'll actually do something. And it might give clues on how Karen's final defeat will go down. And good, Sword Breaker is effective against the hax gunsword. In this battle, everybody's weapon sucks.

Unrelated to the content of the spoilers, but Wing Road'ing out of an airship and into aerial combat over an ocean must be a harrowing experience.

WarpObscura

2011-02-25, 10:33

Kind of unrelated to the actual manga but the two Nanoha pinups in this Nyantype are Hayate/Rein & Arnage.

... Hole in my pocket getting bigger...

Eins oder Zwei?

Ja, ist wichtigfrage.

(I have this feeling that if my German got any rustier it'll spontaneously crumble.)

Yasanagi

2011-02-25, 10:40

If this is how the Silver Cross Bible gets defeated, I'm going to be rather disappointed. I mean, the corruption from the Book of Darkness got a big ass battle.

I still want Thoma to man up somewhere and subdue his Divider and Book like a Soul Reaper does with their Soul Cutter in Bleach.

Sage Shinigami

2011-02-25, 11:11

And as a trade off, Nanoha series shall inherit the general mockery adressed toward Bleach, as in "Nobody (in the protagonist side) dies". Yes, totally awesome.

Nobody on the antagonist side dies either (and if they do it's *always* their choice). It's a pretty happy universe, aside from some dark spots here and there. I can't speak (nor do I care, honestly) to what the Nanoha fandom thinks of that, but I rather enjoy it. I can point you to a half-dozen series (to start) in which protagonists die by the episode. (Admittedly, they'll all be by the same director... >_<)

And when the characters in Bleach hit the competency level that the characters in Nanoha have, then that's a viable insult. Till then it's just fans needing to find a flaw in stuff.

Edit: And there's a bit of Celtic myth in this as well...but if a "Lancelot" type appears just 'cause of that, I'll honestly stop following the Nano-verse.

Sheba

2011-02-25, 11:22

Nobody on the antagonist side dies either (and if they do it's *always* their choice). It's a pretty happy universe, aside from some dark spots here and there. I can't speak (nor do I care, honestly) to what the Nanoha fandom thinks of that, but I rather enjoy it. I can point you to a half-dozen series (to start) in which protagonists die by the episode. (Admittedly, they'll all be by the same director... >_<)

Why the fucking fear of death? I CAN understand people not wanting meaningless and poorly brought death. But Vita's death would have been heroic and meaningful, and the setup in strikerS was just good for that. So tell me why are you chickening over this idea? HOW COULD YOU TELL that a Nanoha where people die as a consequence of decisions and actions would be worse than what we are seeing now? Did you sniff Arrakeen Spice to find it out or something?

And when the characters in Bleach hit the competency level that the characters in Nanoha have, then that's a viable insult. Till then it's just fans needing to find a flaw in stuff.

Power level, the bigggest bankai/beam wins, cast bloat, etc... Please, deal with it!

Keroko

2011-02-25, 11:25

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 11:28

Destroyed his tome, eh? Hopefully, that'll actually do something. And it might give clues on how Karen's final defeat will go down. And good, Sword Breaker is effective against the hax gunsword. In this battle, everybody's weapon sucks.

Heh. Again the Sword Breaker proves to be the only AEC that don't suck. first Veyron's Divider, now Tohma's. GO Subaru!

And about the Book of the Silver Cross, don't be silly, it can't be so easily destroyed, my bet is that it have something similar to the corrupted defense program, after all it has somethign to do with Eclipse and it's ridiculous power of super regeneration, probably this will allow to Tohma being disabled because they and the book aren't enough merged yet. But then Karen will tell the audience something among the lines of "this is only the beginning".

Still, is pretty sweet seeing a good Big Damn Heroes moment pulled out bu Subaru xD.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 14:07

You'd think an artifact that powerful would have some kind of defenses of its own, really. Any Device probably could have taken that hit.

So now if Touma's knocked out, all they have to do is get them past all four (five, if Fortis decides he feels like actually helping) Huckebeins to the Wolfram. Still doesn't look very good.

Rising Dragon

2011-02-25, 14:18

Let's remember that we lack the context before we start getting all wanky, like people usually do with the movie manga chapters.

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 14:57

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 15:38

Kaijo sayz: "the last magical tome we came upon had a fairly powerful regeneration function"

TheRainbowConnection

2011-02-25, 15:43

Of course, it's not going to stay down for good. But it'll be good if it exposes weaknesses while it's regenerating or something. Hit its weak point for massive damage, etc. etc.

And yeah, at this point, it's all pointless speculation.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 16:03

Even if the book recovers or whatever, I guess that being damage will weaken its influence on Thoma and allow Subaru's words to get through to him and give him a chance to break free. If Thoma then decides to not go with the Huckebein, they'll probably retreat without further conflict.

You mean the same Huckebeins who said they'd attack him if he tried to leave, and sent out two people to recapture him after he'd directly threatened the lives of two of their crew? I kinda doubt it.

Rising Dragon

2011-02-25, 16:05

You mean the same Huckebeins who said they'd attack him if he tried to leave, and sent out two people to recapture him after he'd directly threatened the lives of two of their crew? I kinda doubt it.

Considering that at this point, Touma's basically the most powerful Eclipse infectee next to Karen, and is presumably being neutralized by RF6, I imagine Huckebein would decide to cut their losses and retreat lest another of their members suffers the same fate.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 16:08

Neutralized because they blew up the book controlling him, which was using him like a puppet at the time. Besides, the Huckebeins are pretty arrogant villains, and there's only three Bureau mages still standing.

Rising Dragon

2011-02-25, 16:12

They didn't just break the book, they broke his Divider as well. If Subaru decides to do the same to anyone else who swings a Divider at her...

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 16:14

They're only attacking the Bureau because the Bureau is in their way. They just want to recover Thoma and retreat.

They didn't threaten to attack Thoma if he tried to leave. They just told him trying to leave wouldn't be a good idea since they're in an airborn battleship. They gave Thoma a choice and wanted him to think it over. If he was going to join them, cool. If not, oh well, they were going to respect his choice.

When his choice was to go off and let himself be killed, they didn't approve of that and weren't going to just let him go off to his death. That's why they're chasing after him now.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 16:14

Subaru also uses a spell that affects the environment to get around in the air, so it would be pretty easy for them to keep her from getting close enough to do that.

And Raiser, I doubt 'do what you want' includes 'going with the Bureau, specifically guys trying to attack us'. If they're trying to kill people to keep them from taking Touma away, do you really think they'll let him go with them of his own volition? He's pretty much a WMD at this point - you wouldn't want someone like that with your enemy.

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 16:20

If they do continue to press on, it'll be because they'll assume the Bureau will mistreat Thoma. Recall that one of their arguments were "we're the only ones who can understand/save you."

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 16:24

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 16:26

As much as i love Subaru's intervention, i doubt she can hold her own against Karen, her Sword Breaker will have a hard time trying to stop Karen's "Unlimited Page Works" that neutralizes Erio and Vita ina flash. The better they can to is to take Tohma, make a good distraction and retreat ASAP.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 16:32

Karen also didn't seem too concerned when Vita broke her Katana. Maybe Dividers regenerate too?

aers

2011-02-25, 16:38

Spoiler says it took Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, and Isis to take down Touma, btw.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 16:38

Karen also didn't seem too concerned when Vita broke her Katana. Maybe Dividers regenerate too?

the fun thing is that said Katana didn't look like a Divider at all(take Cypha's unreacted katana for example, it's balck and it's design is quite peculiar), it looks just like a normal Katana. Which made even mroe impressive her introduction as she's able to take down Hayate and destruoy two arguably powerful AEC weapons just with a sharpened piece of metal xD.

Spoiler says it took Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, and Isis to take down Touma, btw.

Another step to the Cyborg Isis theory xD!

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 16:40

Spoiler says it took Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, and Isis to take down Touma, btw.

>have a broken neck

>fight anyway

**** yeah, Isis.

Laith

2011-02-25, 16:51

Neck? Who needs one anyway

Isis: http://i51.tinypic.com/2eov7rs.gif

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 17:01

And because if they think if the Bureau does take him, this scenario will happen sometime in the future

1 - Drop Touma near the ship or on it

2 - Provoke an Eclipse reaction from him somehow

3 - Mages waiting from a safe distance away swoop in, headshots all around

Not that Section Six would do that, but somebody probably would if they learned of it. Not everything they do has to be because they're 'nice'.

You make it sound like their thought process would be "We have to get him so he won't be used against us!" rather than "We have to save him so they won't do terrible things to him."

Remember that the emphasis on the Huckebein Family is the Family part of it.

Spoiler says it took Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, and Isis to take down Touma, btw.

Even better :) So long as we get further away from "Nanoha is a one woman army who can solve everything easily by her self."

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 17:19

Even better :) So long as we get further away from "Nanoha is a one woman army who can solve everything easily by her self."

I think that was already stablished in A's with freakin everyone taking part in the final battle xD. By the way StrikerS also solved by various successful acomplishements, Nano0ha just take down Vivio.

Spoiler says it took Nanoha, Fate, Subaru, and Isis to take down Touma, btw.

that left me wondering about what happened to Deville, Arnage, Karen and Cypha xDU.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 17:22

So? They just met him. Why wouldn't pragmatism win out here?

Tiresias

2011-02-25, 17:34

You make it sound like their thought process would be "We have to get him so he won't be used against us!" rather than "We have to save him so they won't do terrible things to him."

Remember that the emphasis on the Huckebein Family is the Family part of it.

Or so they claimed. According to c9p2 their(Karen's) primary target in Touma is Zero Driver

Keroko

2011-02-25, 17:52

If they do continue to press on, it'll be because they'll assume the Bureau will mistreat Thoma. Recall that one of their arguments were "we're the only ones who can understand/save you."

Considering they're already calling it 'saving' I doubt they think the bureau will mistreat him. They're more likely under the impression that their way is the only way to deal with the Eclipse, which, despite my many arguments about it being the wrong way to go about it, is not a completely unrealistic view.

>have a broken neck

>fight anyway

**** yeah, Isis.

Best protagonist of the story so far? I say yes.

Sheba

2011-02-25, 18:23

>have a broken neck

>fight anyway

**** yeah, Isis.

If it come down to this crazy shit (http://badassoftheweek.com/babadeepsingh.html)

Demi.

2011-02-25, 18:47

If it come down to this crazy shit (http://badassoftheweek.com/babadeepsingh.html)

lol, good read.

DezoPenguin

2011-02-25, 22:02

Considering they're already calling it 'saving' I doubt they think the bureau will mistreat him. They're more likely under the impression that their way is the only way to deal with the Eclipse, which, despite my many arguments about it being the wrong way to go about it, is not a completely unrealistic view.

I suppose one thing is if Hayate's task force successfully brings in Touma safe and then the Evil Scientists (tm) who did all that nasty stuff with Lily and wiped out villages and suchlike come in as "the greatest experts on the Eclipse Virus" etc., etc. and only after it's too late do they take Touma and Lily off with them to their Evil Lair ("bwa ha ha ha ha" optional) and either Isis or the Hucks or both shows up and points out that these guys are the real bad guys, and then everybody has to team up to save Touma (leading to a classic "Enemy Mine" situation where everybody gets to learn respect for one another's courage, dedication, emotion, yadda yadda yadda and they stumble over a cure for the Eclipse/destroy the Book of the Silver Cross/get Lily to make a Heroic Sacrifice while they're in the process of righteously kicking ass)...

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 22:06

That would be stupid. Why would these guys, who insist on solving things their way to remarkable lengths, lend a hand to other people? I could see, say, Arnage doing that by herself, but definitely not all of them.

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 22:11

If it gets the job done, I'm sure they'd team up with whoever they need to.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 22:13

No, they wouldn't.

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 22:16

Oh? And since when were you the expert on the Huckebein? Seriously, they're the kind of people who will destroy entire villages to complete an objective. Why wouldn't they take advantage of a bunch of super powerful mages that would make completing their task much easier?

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 22:18

Because they consider the TSAB completely useless, and all of them are cocky and arrogant?

00-Raiser

2011-02-25, 22:21

Even if that were true, I'm sure they'd at least go "Well, they'll make a good distraction at least."

Justin_Brett

2011-02-25, 22:22

You don't really need to join up with them for them to serve that purpose. If they fight that hard to get Touma back this time, hey, they'd probably show up there too.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 22:22

The other option es that they team up witht he TSAB just to betray them when they think Tohma and the Book are secured. Thus, leaving our heroes in a very bad situation.

I can totally see Cypha pulling a "Lots-o'-Huggin" on the heroes xD.

Nanya01

2011-02-25, 22:27

I can totally see Cypha pulling a "Lots-o'-Huggin" on the heroes xD.

"Give Cypha a hug!"
"...What?"
"I want a hug!"
"...Well..."
"You IDIOT!"
*STAB*
"Who else wants to give Cypha a hug?"

Akiyoshi

2011-02-25, 22:44

"Give Cypha a hug!"
"...What?"
"I want a hug!"
"...Well..."
"You IDIOT!"
*STAB*
"Who else wants to give Cypha a hug?"

And i finally know what to give to my least liked person on christmas xD

Aaron008R

2011-02-25, 23:51

Never thought I'd post here. But I guess this is rather relevant.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1651/1298689065955.th.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/1298689065955.jpg/)
Vivio, Ein and Touma for the upcoming A's PSP game. Notice that Touma's eyes are blue here.
Implied badass recovery from emo hell and kicking some Huck butt in the future? >:3

As for the current developments, I'd like to keep my mouth shut for now. There are still too many cards to play and things that can still happen that I'd like to watch some more.

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-26, 04:08

Ja, ist wichtigfrage.

(I have this feeling that if my German got any rustier it'll spontaneously crumble.)

Damn, I really asked that in German? :heh: Neither it, nor English are my native language, so I sometimes forget to switch, especially when a sentence starts with a German word. ^^;

Should be "Ja, ist eine wichtige Frage." May also include a "das" or "es" before "ist" to sound less colloquial. ^^

Let's remember that we lack the context before we start getting all wanky, like people usually do with the movie manga chapters.

Well, as the last chapter showed (with Hayate getting all stabbed), people commit the same sin about Force, too. ^^

>have a broken neck

>fight anyway

**** yeah, Isis.

Is there still any contest as to who is the most GAR character in Force? :heh:

that left me wondering about what happened to Deville, Arnage, Karen and Cypha xDU.

Didn't Karen order a general retreat in the end of the last chapter? I understood it so that she stabbed Hayate to clear the way for the Esquad and then the Hucks escaped the combat airspace, leaving the STS6 to deal with Thoma.

Best protagonist of the story so far? I say yes.

IMO they should make her THE protagonist of the story. And demote Thoma and Lily to her (unofficial, of course) harem. :3

aers

2011-02-26, 05:10

JP Summary finally, credit to 2ch as always!

スバル、ウィングロードで出撃。
なのはvsトーマ、なのはがフォートレスのチャフ散布からの
エクサランスカノン　フルバーストで銀十字のページを削り取る。
でもシールドラージ破壊されて、カノン・ボディーアーマーも接近戦で
破壊される。
シールドミドルでなんとか一撃を受け止めたところで、追いついた
スバルがソードブレイク・ディバイダーの刀身破壊。
トーマも射撃で反撃しようとするが、無闇に頑丈なアイシスが
復帰からの黒の香の爆破攻撃でトーマ活動停止・緊急転移モードで
戦線離脱しようとする。
そこにフェイトのジェットザンバーで銀十字破壊・トーマ落下。
最後リリィが助けに行くって言ってto be continued

Nightengale

2011-02-26, 07:22

JP Summary finally, credit to 2ch as always!

最後リリィが助けに行くって言ってto be continued

...

:uhoh:

Tome's destruction => Cliffhanger of Lily calling for help => ???? => Profit!?

Looks like things isn't going to be so easy after all.

WarpObscura

2011-02-26, 08:48

Damn, I really asked that in German? :heh: Neither it, nor English are my native language, so I sometimes forget to switch, especially when a sentence starts with a German word. ^^;

Should be "Ja, ist eine wichtige Frage." May also include a "das" or "es" before "ist" to sound less colloquial. ^^

Yes, you did totally use "oder" instead of "or".

Also, noted on the grammar.

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 10:01

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-26, 10:19

This had just occurred to me, but before the formation of the TSAB many worlds, including Midchilda, had their share of mass-based heavy weapons, right? Yet here we have MS6 using experimental, faulty weapons, instead of using battle-proven designs from the pre-Ban age. Did they purge all schematics on every mass-based weapons larger than small arms?

Image problems. They wouldn't look good using Terran assault rifles right after banning their use everywhere they can. If, on the other hand, they use experimental weapons, they can always claim "It was magic!" afterwards and nobody would be any wiser.

Hmm, I wonder if there are any conspiracy kooks in the Nanohaverse. ^^;

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 10:29

Image problems. They wouldn't look good using Terran assault rifles right after banning their use everywhere they can. If, on the other hand, they use experimental weapons, they can always claim "It was magic!" afterwards and nobody would be any wiser.

Hmm, I wonder if there are any conspiracy kooks in the Nanohaverse. ^^;

I think you need more than mere assault rifles to do good damage against the Hucks, hence "heavy weapons".

I never said Terran (though curiously the shady scientist teams are escorted by mooks wielding M-16's), there should be advanced Midchildan or Belkan designs lying somewhere from pre-TSAB period. If they're really wary with the publicity, the can just re-design the outer appearances into Ace Custom's that barely resembled the originals (happens many times in Gundams); slap some gratuitous mystical inscriptions, calligraphy, decorations and stuff W40K Space Marines style and you're done. Maybe also have the Saint Church bless them, just in case. :p

Keroko

2011-02-26, 10:38

Because that means Tsuzuki wouldn't be able to design all those fancy new weapons.

Jimmy C

2011-02-26, 10:38

It's been a century or more since mass-weapons were banned. The cheap, plentiful stuff like assault riffles, anti-armor weapons and such were probably never preserved and now no longer exist. If they DID keep anything in a usable condition, it'd be those "too deadly to use, yet too powerful to dispose" types like WMDs that wouldn't be appropriate for this case.
And just having plans would be useless. They no longer have the industrial base or technical expertise to build them. Even if they tried to follow those plans exactly, they still need someone who can build the factories to build parts and then assemble those weapons.
I'd say 5 years would be optimistic for getting from the "GO" decision to the first weapons rolling off the assembly line. By which time the case will have been resolved, or their advesaries have won and it no longer matters.

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 10:46

Because that means Tsuzuki wouldn't be able to design all those fancy new weapons.

He could just say that the new toys are refurbished and upgraded versions of the old ones on the NEXT notes; in Anime "Ancient" usually implies "superior" anyway:heh: And IIRC they hired someone else to design the toys.

They no longer have the industrial base or technical expertise to build them. Even if they tried to follow those plans exactly, they still need someone who can build the factories to build parts and then assemble those weapons.
I'd say 5 years would be optimistic for getting from the "GO" decision to the first weapons rolling off the assembly line. By which time the case will have been resolved, or their advesaries have won and it no longer matters.

Yet they seems to have the capacity on designing and making Strike Cannons from scratch. If they had the time to make completely new designs, why not just use the one from the past, give them upgrades for special needs?

At least they could have used the design of previous power supplies (I know, I know, Rule of Drama and stuff, but seriously? Why make a new design from scratch when there's reliable and battle tested power pack designs from the previous era?)

This is more understandable had the civilizations in the story never made such weapons before so the heroes must start from nothing, but it's explicitly stated that there was a time when such weapons were abundant.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 11:21

Didn't Karen order a general retreat in the end of the last chapter? I understood it so that she stabbed Hayate to clear the way for the Esquad and then the Hucks escaped the combat airspace, leaving the STS6 to deal with Thoma.

Why...why would you have your villains do that? It makes the heroes look completely incompetent!

Keroko

2011-02-26, 11:27

He could just say that the new toys are refurbished and upgraded versions of the old ones on the NEXT notes; in Anime "Ancient" usually implies "superior" anyway:heh: And IIRC they hired someone else to design the toys.

And at that point, it becomes personal preference. If both ancient and new things are going to serve the same purpose, then it's up to the author to take a pick.

Yet they seems to have the capacity on designing and making Strike Cannons from scratch. If they had the time to make completely new designs, why not just use the one from the past, give them upgrades for special needs?

At least they could have used the design of previous power supplies (I know, I know, Rule of Drama and stuff, but seriously? Why make a new design from scratch when there's reliable and battle tested power pack designs from the previous era?)

This is more understandable had the civilizations in the story never made such weapons before so the heroes must start from nothing, but it's explicitly stated that there was a time when such weapons were abundant.

Because it's harder to integrate old antiques with modern devices (remember, the current gadgets are deeply integrated with our heroes devices) then designing a system from the ground up and implementing such integration in the design.

Why...why would you have your villains do that? It makes the heroes look completely incompetent!

They managed to drive an enemy who thought themselves as invincible to retreat. The only way this makes the heroes look incompetent is if you approach it with a 'glass is half empty' look.

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 11:32

Because it's harder to integrate old antiques with modern devices (remember, the current gadgets are deeply integrated with our heroes devices) then designing a system from the ground up and implementing such integration in the design.

I never recall the Strike Cannons being integrated with existing devices - I'm hoping that it would one day be the case, but right now it isn't.

Why...why would you have your villains do that? It makes the heroes look completely incompetent!

They already made the heroes do tactically questionable actions (Nanoha not dealing with DeVille on her back), have them pick the wrong agents for the job (the completely magic-reliant Wolkenritters instead of the Numbers Cyborgs), and warped the rule of magic to give the villains even more advantage (the whole mass-based magic spells things, specifically the iceberg). Is this really surprising?

*grumbles on how Rule of Drama made the heroes hold the Idiot Ball*

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 11:35

They managed to drive an enemy who thought themselves as invincible to retreat. The only way this makes the heroes look incompetent is if you approach it with a 'glass is half empty' look.

But them retreating is completely illogical! They could easily kill Nanoha, Fate and Subaru at this point without any of them dying.

00-Raiser

2011-02-26, 11:47

Their goal in this entire battle was the grab Thoma and teleport out of there. They just wanted to shake off the Bureau, not wipe them out.

Keroko

2011-02-26, 11:49

I never recall the Strike Cannons being integrated with existing devices - I'm hoping that it would one day be the case, but right now it isn't.

Considering Fate's device is basically an extension of Bardiche and Raising heart being quite able to do her usual support thing with Nanoha's new guns? Yes they are.

But them retreating is completely illogical! They could easily kill Nanoha, Fate and Subaru at this point without any of them dying.

To be fair, killing them was never the Hucks main goal to begin with. They were always planning to run the moment they got the chance from the very start.

And 'easily' is not a word I would throw around so casually with our lack of context.

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 11:59

Raising heart being quite able to do her usual support thing with Nanoha's new guns? Yes they are.

AFAIK RH's only role is as a comm assistant and help her with her flight and evasion spells - and it only interacted directly with Nanoha, not the new weapons. It supports her, yes, but not by being integrated with the new toys. Not yet, anyway.

Keroko

2011-02-26, 12:27

Considering that in chapter 7 it was Raising Heart who wanted to do more fine-tuning, I would argue the opposite.

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 12:31

Considering that in chapter 7 it was Raising Heart who wanted to do more fine-tuning, I would argue the opposite.

It's possible that RH was also her design assistant. Doesn't mean it's connected to them. The few combat scenes on further showed no signs on RH being integrated with the AEC weapons system.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 14:14

Their goal in this entire battle was the grab Thoma and teleport out of there. They just wanted to shake off the Bureau, not wipe them out.

Then why are they retreating now that doing that has become pitifully easy from their perspective?

Nanya01

2011-02-26, 14:17

Then why are they retreating now that doing that has become pitifully easy from their perspective?

To quote Vita from StrikerS...

"Signum! Rein is..! Graf Eisen is..! Everything's broken!"

Keroko

2011-02-26, 14:23

Then why are they retreating now that doing that has become pitifully easy from their perspective?

We don't know. As I said, we lack context.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-26, 14:43

And 'easily' is not a word I would throw around so casually with our lack of context.

Section Six forces are near exhausted, Karen disabled Hayate and wiped out Vita and Erio withotubreaking a sweat(trashing two Strike Cannons in the process), Tohma already started to trash the famed Fortress Mode, Fate is busy with Deville, Isis have her capacity reduced and Arnage and Cypha are also there for good support, the context is thet the Huckebein have Section Six on the ropes, they justneed to kick them out of the way and take Tohma.

The only thing i can think of is that somehow Karen or another Huck points out an inconvenience of taking Tohma right at the moment, thus making the need to retreat. It's true that the TSAB is not their priority but something significant must happen to make them suddenly letting Tohma go. For now this isn't a victory for Section Six, it will be if they manage to "save" Tohma but as for the battle the better they can do with their mightiest personal is only stall the Huckebein.

To quote Vita from StrikerS...

"Signum! Rein is..! Graf Eisen is..! Everything's broken!"

How that applies here? The Huckebeins are actually winning, nothing is broken except for the heroes butts xDU.

Jimmy C

2011-02-26, 14:53

Yet they seems to have the capacity on designing and making Strike Cannons from scratch. If they had the time to make completely new designs, why not just use the one from the past, give them upgrades for special needs?

Because the Strike Cannons are still magic-based devices, things that the Bureau and its contractors have much experience in and the industrial capacity to build. It's like asking a gun manufacturer to build a gun to new specifications. Might be a challenge, but they can handle it.
What you're proposing would be like dropping the plans for a laser rifle on the same manufacturer and telling them to "build this." Which is something that not only have they never done before, but their factory is not designed to mass produce.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-26, 14:55

Because the Strike Cannons are still magic-based devices, things that the Bureau and its contractors have much experience in and the industrial capacity to build. It's like asking a gun manufacturer to build a gun to new specifications. Might be a challenge, but they can handle it.
What you're proposing would be like dropping the plans for a laser rifle on the same manufacturer and telling them to "build this." Which is something that not only have they never done before, but their factory is not designed to mass produce.

Not that it was too complicated anyway, the Strike Cannon is basically a big sword-rifle, the only innovating thing about it is the technology used to tranform magic into ammo.

Keroko

2011-02-26, 14:57

Nanya01

2011-02-26, 14:59

...

*Falls over laughing*

Sword-muncher Subaru.

XD

Edit: ... DAMMIT!

Now I got this image in my head of Subaru going "Swords! Om nom nom!"

Akiyoshi

2011-02-26, 15:04

Karen's unlimited paperworks was a one-shot thing which she can't do again, and with her divider broken that leaves her rather defenseless.

Hopes this not end up being the reason, it will be quite dissapointing(C'mon Tsuzuki, you just introduced the living incarnation of Badass, it's not time for demoting yet xDU).

...

*Falls over laughing*

Sword-muncher Subaru.

XD

Edit: ... DAMMIT!

Now I got this image in my head of Subaru going "Swords! Om nom nom!"

That's why Subaru is the one who more probably will defeat Cypha(the other Hucks at least have the gun-half of their dividers xD).

itanshi1

2011-02-26, 15:15

Well, not exactly (http://www.magiccards.info/pd2/en/12.html) true.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 15:22

Karen doesn't share Fortis's ideology, and thinks that if Touma wants to kill himself, that's the kid's right to do so.

Then why's he acting like it's something they all share to Touma? Surely he wouldn't get away with it for long.

Sword-muncher Subaru is ready for action.

Again, unless the Hucks decide to be morons, that's not going to help matters much.

Karen didn't order just a retreat, but a 'grab the kid an retreat.'

Basic storytelling and logic says it's this one.

To quote Vita from StrikerS...

"Signum! Rein is..! Graf Eisen is..! Everything's broken!"

So you think they're leaving just because a few non-sentient (as far as we know) weapons got busted? It didn't seem like Karen was really that concerned, just mildly surprised.

Kaijo

2011-02-26, 16:54

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 17:04

Unless you count recovering Touma as winning. Then it has a lot.

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-26, 18:21

Here's a couple of reaons I can think of from the top of my head why Karen ordered a retreat, lack of context filled up with theories:

Karen didn't order just a retreat, but a 'grab the kid an retreat.'
Karen doesn't share Fortis's ideology, and thinks that if Touma wants to kill himself, that's the kid's right to do so.
TSAB reinforcements are incoming.
Sword-muncher Subaru is ready for action.
Karen's unlimited paperworks was a one-shot thing which she can't do again, and with her divider broken that leaves her rather defenseless.

I think number 2 is the most likely. Judging by her absense from the Esquad during most of the battle, she was probably off pursuing her own agenda that she doesn't like to share with the rest of the Hucks. From her point of view, her "crew" just went and picked a major fight with the Bureau over some boy she's never seen before. If I were her, I'd clear the way, leave Thoma and TSAB fighting each other and leave ASAP. Also, if she does know who, or rather what, Thoma is, she should realize how dangerous it is to hang around someone who is able to divide an eclipse by zero while he's being attacked.

And as someone said, the Hucks don't have beef with the Bureau (well, maybe Cypha does, but she is a bitch, anyway), it's the other way around.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 18:36

Didn't Fortis namedrop Karen when he said the Hucks wanted to get Touma's Divider?

I could definitely see her slapping his shit for various things, though.

Keroko

2011-02-26, 19:21

I'd slap Fortis for his hypocrisy. "Whatever you choose, we won't stop you." "He's trying to kill himself! Stop him!"

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 22:49

Because the Strike Cannons are still magic-based devices, things that the Bureau and its contractors have much experience in and the industrial capacity to build. It's like asking a gun manufacturer to build a gun to new specifications. Might be a challenge, but they can handle it.

I've yet to see anything "magical" about the Strike Cannons. They fire mass-based cannons and are powered by battery packs[ch9], not magic from the user. If the "generator converter" will be installed in the future then perhaps it would change, but that's only if the "generator converter" is really a mana-to-power converter as speculated.

Kaijo

2011-02-26, 23:11

I've yet to see anything "magical" about the Strike Cannons. They fire mass-based cannons and are powered by battery packs[ch9], not magic from the user. If the "generator converter" will be installed in the future then perhaps it would change, but that's only if the "generator converter" is really a mana-to-power converter as speculated.

The battery is filled with magical energy, sorta like a large cartridge. The conversion generator is something to be installed later, which lets the mage actively charge the battery using their own magic (or outright power shots).

Tiresias

2011-02-26, 23:15

The battery is filled with magical energy

Where was this stated? And for the matter, what are the power sources of most machines in the Nanohaverse anyway?

Besides, the pre-tSAB armies had also combined technology with magic, so there should be cases of magic-based devices too.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-26, 23:27

If it has a battery, do the Aces need to supply their own magic?

Kaijo

2011-02-26, 23:28

Where was this stated? And for the matter, what are the power sources of most machines in the Nanohaverse anyway?

Besides, the pre-tSAB armies had also combined technology with magic, so there should be cases of magic-based devices too.

It was directly stated on the Force NEXT picture that the device converts magic into solid shots. I'm not sure I can link you directly to the manga page, but if you check out chapter 9, page 12 and 13, you'll see Nanoha talking about the battery, and that the generator hasn't been installed yet.

Edit: To answer Justin, my guess would be a battery would store enough for several shots, and that magic power would simply recharge the battery. That's the assumption I worked off of in FT.

aers

2011-02-27, 00:31

IIRC Fortress at least definitely has a power generator (it's the thing on her back or w/e?), but I don't recall if we ever got a translation of that NEXT.

Koveras Alvane

2011-02-27, 02:02

Didn't Fortis namedrop Karen when he said the Hucks wanted to get Touma's Divider?

IIRC he only namedrops her whenever he says that the Divider is the poison that'll destroy the world or somesuch.

IIRC Fortress at least definitely has a power generator (it's the thing on her back or w/e?), but I don't recall if we ever got a translation of that NEXT.

It has a cartridge system, in fact. :confused:

Tiresias

2011-02-27, 07:50

It was directly stated on the Force NEXT picture that the device converts magic into solid shots.

How does this even works? How could compressed magic bypass Huckebein's anti-magic?

Keroko

2011-02-27, 08:10

Not compressed, converted.

Tiresias

2011-02-27, 08:15

Not compressed, converted.

Converted into what? What exactly does Strike Cannons fire?

Magic power --> undescribed conversion process --> ??? bullets

Jimmy C

2011-02-27, 08:18

Not bullets, kinetic impact.

Miles Teg

2011-02-27, 08:32

It's the translation for the Force NEXT 01, that come from this sub-forum but I don't know who has done it (and I am too lazy to search :heh:)

CW-AEC02X "Strike Cannon"

This weapon is an not a "magical device" (hereinafter referred to as "device"), but an armed interface being produced as a "magic-driven weapon."

It is developed and manufactured with the order of the TSAB Mid-Childa headquarters, by the Weizen-based device manufacturer Caledfwlch Technics, for medium range air/land artillery duels. Currently testing is being carried out in the Takamachi team of Squadron 5. The person in responsible of the testing is the leader of the Takamachi team, Captain Nanoha Takamachi (25). As a gesture of courtesy by Caledfwlch Technics, the weapon has been painted in "Strato Blue" and "Shine White" in accordance with the personal call colour of Captain Takamachi. (Also, Unit 02 of the same model has been painted in "Magma Red" and "Sapphire Black" in accordance with the personal call colour of First Lieutenant Vita, the co-leader of the Takamachi Team.)

Usually magical devices channel the magical power of the users and directly output it as "bullets" or "barriers."* However, the core function of the CW Series of armed interfaces (including the aforementioned model) is to instantly convert the users' magical power into impact shocks, solid destruction cannon fire, protective barriers and etc. Therefore, they are effective counter weapons against enemy devices with magic neutralization property such as "AMF" or "Zero Effect." They are also test devices for the "personal-size practical high-speed magic conversion technology."

Nevertheless, a problem unveiled during the testing stage is the lack of sufficient strength and reaction speed of the instruction team members. As a result, only Captain Takamachi's Unit 01 is planned to be put into field testing. Technical Officer and Device Chief Atenza Mariel is now optimizing the Unit for Captain Takamachi's exclusive use.

Although little information has been disclosed, it is known that the long gun barrel has the function of rail accleration in its "Open" mode. In its "Close" mode, the weapon may be used as "Assault Lance" or "Heavy Sword."

* Magical devices have two different kinds of output methods: the 'User Cross Link' method which constantly circulates the user's magical power in the device and stabilize it; and the 'Direct boost' method which focuses on strengthening and accelerating the user's magic output.

Raising Heart Excelion (Standalone Flight Mode)

"Raising Heart Excelion" is the magical device owned by Captain Nanoha Takamachi.

As an intelligent device capable of autonomous behaviour, "she" has a female voice and personality.

The original form of the device is a highly classical "Mage's staff." Ever since Captain Takamachi has met the device as a 9-year-old child, almost the entirety of her magic career has been spent with "her".

Raising Heart has also been watching the growth of Captain Takamachi: from a young master to the Captain of the Bureau. Even though Captain Takamachi is now a mother of a child, Raising Heart still continues to be her partner in the sky and in life, and regards it a pride to be "the staff that supports Nanoha Takamachi."

In "her" battle history of over sixteen years, Raising Heart has received several upgrades, from the installation of the "Cartridge System" to the addition of the "Exceed System" and "Blaster Mode." The "Standalone Flight Mode" is the latest upgrade.

The "Standalone Flight Mode" is a mode which Raising Heart autonomously elected to be retrofitted in order to support Captain Takamachi as both of her hands are occupied for the use of Strike Cannon.

In this mode, Raising Heart can behave as a "staff" and directly output the magic power of Captain Takamachi. At the same time, the blade edge, which shares the functions of device protector and flight stabilizer, also has the properties of "cutting weapon."

Keroko

2011-02-27, 08:44

Looks like you were right on RH not being integrated with the Strike Cannon Tiresias. Standalone flight mode kind of smashes my earlier integration arguments.

DezoPenguin

2011-02-27, 09:50

It also answers my question about why they weren't fitting out AEC weaponry for the grunts--apparently you have to be a highly powerful mage just to get the things to work (which, honestly, is right in line with the Bureau's philosophy of having destructive power in the hands of those who have to spend years in training and developing their strength instead of "anyone can pick it up and use it" technology).

One touch I love is the description of the colors. It's so like a real corporation would do--it's not enough to just say that Nanoha's unit is blue and white and Vita's is red and black. Kind of like how my tan car is "sand" according to the manufacturer.

Tiresias

2011-02-27, 10:14

However, the core function of the CW Series of armed interfaces (including the aforementioned model) is to instantly convert the users' magical power into impact shocks, solid destruction cannon fire, protective barriers and etc.

So the weapon fires...Force Push? :confused:

Keroko

2011-02-27, 11:01

So the weapon fires...Force Push? :confused:

Oi, don't dish the push. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap-uCm3cva8&t=4m4s) :p

But yeah, they're probably taking a page out of the 'pure energy' book and have weapons firing 'pure kinetic energy'

Nanya01

2011-02-27, 11:13

So the weapon fires...Force Push? :confused:

*Shrugs*

Considering that you could call it that, Ki Blasts, Air Bursts, ETC, does it matter?

Think about wind storms and how dangerous they can be...

A tornado can take even the smallest of objects and turn them into projectiles that are lethal.

So, kinetic energy...

Basically projectiles without mass.

...

Ouch.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-27, 11:41

So, kinetic energy...

Basically projectiles without mass.

...

Ouch.

Not that Karen have much to worry about that xD.

dahak

2011-02-27, 18:45

So the weapon fires...Force Push? :confused:

Uses force push to fire solid projectiles at ultra high speed if the bit about rail acceleration in open mode is anything to go by.

Kaijo

2011-02-27, 18:55

It also answers my question about why they weren't fitting out AEC weaponry for the grunts-r.

Actually, apparently the War Hammer is slated for mass-production for the grunts. The Strike Cannon is more difficult to handle, but a lower-powered War Hammer seems like it would be something the grunts could use.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-27, 20:07

So Vita was using the technically weaker weapon at the beginning of the fight? Weird.

itanshi1

2011-02-27, 21:11

well, enemies in this series are getting tougher than ship hulls :P

Kaijo

2011-02-27, 21:18

DezoPenguin

2011-02-27, 22:08

I wouldn't call it technically weaker. I get the impression that the mass-manufactured versions would be weaker. Vita can simply handle a stronger one.

Though I must admit, I expected Vita to swing with the hammer, not shoot from the tip. It makes her decision to switch to a Strike Cannon later look kinda odd. And I got the impression Plasma Pile was doing more damage to the ship than the Strike Cannon was.

Well, if she was just going to hit things with War Hammer, she could use Graf Eisen for the same purpose and it would probably work better (especially since her Limit Break attacks, unlike Signum's fire attacks, are basically "whack things even harder with an even bigger hammer"). We already know that Belkan magic attacks work fine under AMF conditions, and Signum was able to damage Cypha with Laevatein, it was only that Cypha could regenerate and Laevatein was damaged by the attacks--but if a Belkan Armed Device would be so badly damaged by smashing it into a Huckebein, then I'd think an experimental AEC weapon doing the same thing wouldn't be any stronger...

Justin_Brett

2011-02-27, 23:34

Yeah, I dunno either. Gigant Form could probably just bat the whole damn ship into the ocean because of its mass, anti-Device armor or no. But then, so could Voltaire, and Caro's not even around.

itanshi1

2011-02-27, 23:40

Well if voltaire was there, someone else might be back stabbed so

Justin_Brett

2011-02-27, 23:43

Just keep her inside the ship.

Kaijo

2011-02-27, 23:56

Caro: "Yeah, why aren't I around?" (taps foot and glares)
Hayate: "Because of that." (Points to a sign that reads: "You must be at least this high to ride in the Wolfram")
Caro: "THAT'S NOT FUNNY!"

TheRainbowConnection

2011-02-28, 00:34

Though I must admit, I expected Vita to swing with the hammer, not shoot from the tip. It makes her decision to switch to a Strike Cannon later look kinda odd. And I got the impression Plasma Pile was doing more damage to the ship than the Strike Cannon was.

I just sorta assumed that the War Hammer similarly had a battery and that it ran out of juice. And of course, instead of creating a viable method for recharge/reload, they're forced to sell more toys change to a different weapon. If only the hangar had a whole bunch of War Hammers lined up on the wall...

One touch I love is the description of the colors. It's so like a real corporation would do--it's not enough to just say that Nanoha's unit is blue and white and Vita's is red and black. Kind of like how my tan car is "sand" according to the manufacturer.
Lol. I wonder if those colors are trademarked by the TSAB. Strato Blue™, etc.

Keroko

2011-02-28, 02:52

We mustn't forget that Levantein was broken because of the Hucks anti-magic effect, not because Cypha had a really hard body. Using Graf Eisen on the Hucks ship would result in the same thing.

As for Voltaire... one could argue that the Hucks anti-magic would break the summoning bind and send Voltaire back, I suppose.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-28, 03:02

Graf Eisen's probably good for at least one swing, at that size. There's still physics and mass to think about, after all.

Keroko

2011-02-28, 03:05

Let us not drag physics and mass into this lest the tiny loli suddenly can't lift her hammer anymore due to physics.

Justin_Brett

2011-02-28, 03:12

*shrug*

Gigant Form wouldn't be called that if size didn't matter at all.

Akiyoshi

2011-02-28, 06:38

true, even with the Anit-Magic in play, Vita would be able to at least "Drop the Hammer" on the Huckship, she can cast the giganform pretty quickly afterall(at least much quicker than the Heimdall).

Tiresias

2011-02-28, 09:47

*Shrugs*

Considering that you could call it that, Ki Blasts

Shouldn't Ki or The Force counts towards the magical side of things?

Also,

Usually magical devices channel the magical power of the users and directly output it as "bullets" or "barriers."* However, the core function of the CW Series of armed interfaces (including the aforementioned model) is to instantly convert the users' magical power into impact shocks

Following the above description, would "Air Blast" still count, what with it claiming outputs them directly into "impact shocks" instead of bullets? The wind should count as a projectile, no?

*sigh* Dunno, maybe I just lack the reference. Maybe someone could give a link to the *ahem* tech-y concept out there that is similar to...whatever the Strike Cannons is described as?

It also answers my question about why they weren't fitting out AEC weaponry for the grunts--apparently you have to be a highly powerful mage just to get the things to work (which, honestly, is right in line with the Bureau's philosophy of having destructive power in the hands of those who have to spend years in training and developing their strength instead of "anyone can pick it up and use it" technology).

So much for arming the grunts with the mass-produced variant to give them a fighting chance theory. If the redshirts know what's good for them, they'll resign immediately -risk being court martialed for desertion if they have to- and let the Primadona Squad handle all the fighting; it's not like they can do anything anyway, and in the end the heroes wouldn't even mourn them due to 'defeat means friendship'.

Kaijo

2011-02-28, 11:26

*shrug*

Gigant Form wouldn't be called that if size didn't matter at all.

That's what she said. =(

Akiyoshi

2011-02-28, 12:13

So much for arming the grunts with the mass-produced variant to give them a fighting chance theory. If the redshirts know what's good for them, they'll resign immediately -risk being court martialed for desertion if they have to- and let the Primadona Squad handle all the fighting; it's not like they can do anything anyway, and in the end the heroes wouldn't even mourn them due to 'defeat means friendship'.

You just discovered the dark side of the "defeat means frienship" route in a military setting, fallen comrades will never be avenged(Signum T_T).

Justin_Brett

2011-02-28, 13:04

On the topic of the story, if the Hucks are retreating, I'd have preferred it if Fortis was the one to do it, since he underestimated Section Six in the first place (granted, as far as the story shows, that underestimation was completely correct). If we're gonna compare them with the Wolkenritter, they realized Nanoha and Fate weren't nothing to fool with after their first fight.

aers

2011-03-01, 03:05

Chapter 14's name is 「Silbern Kreuz」, Force NEXT is Lily & エンゲージスーツ (Engage Suit?).

Tiresias

2011-03-01, 07:28

You just discovered the dark side of the "defeat means frienship" route in a military setting, fallen comrades will never be avenged(Signum T_T).

After the inevitable (and wall-banging) befriending...
Cypha: "So...uh, sorry for the whole 'impaling you with a big-but-totally-not-phallic sword right in the uterus' thing"
Signum: "Don't worry. People here rarely use that, anyway. You might wanna tell your friend to say sorry to Schach for the dead nuns, though."
Schach: "Ah, 'tis cool. They're nameless anyway, so nobody would remember them. Anybody want some Saint cookies?"

Chapter 14's name is 「Silbern Kreuz」, Force NEXT is Lily & エンゲージスーツ (Engage Suit?).

Engage Suit--->Suit she use to engage--->suit she use for reacting--->her birthday suit? :confused:

00-Raiser

2011-03-01, 10:40

Hm, I wonder if it looks like this...

http://thumbnails38.imagebam.com/12157/4a49a1121566843.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/4a49a1121566843)

EDIT: Oh, it does :heh:

http://i.imgur.com/ocjgKl.jpg (http://imgur.com/ocjgK)

Koveras Alvane

2011-03-01, 11:19

Chapter 14's name is 「Silbern Kreuz」, Force NEXT is Lily & エンゲージスーツ (Engage Suit?).

Silbern Kreuz is German for "Silver Cross", though the grammar is off. Should be "Silbernes Kreuz" 'cuz Kreuz is neuter.

Cypha: "So...uh, sorry for the whole 'impaling you with a big-but-totally-not-phallic sword right in the uterus' thing"
Signum: "Don't worry. People here rarely use that, anyway.

*suddenly imagines Signum and Cypha's love child* Must... not... succumb to... crack...

Engage Suit--->Suit she use to engage--->suit she use for reacting--->her birthday suit? :confused:

Engage suit --> wedding dress. :uhoh:

http://i.imgur.com/ocjgKl.jpg (http://imgur.com/ocjgK)

Asymmetric zettai ryouiki seems to be the official Belkan Magical Tome uniform. :D