Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

monir

2011-02-09, 23:01

Welcome to the discussion thread for Madoka Magica, Episode 06.

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Dr. Casey

2011-02-09, 23:31

I predict that this is going to be the best episode yet. I really enjoy the rivalry that developed between Sayaka and Kyoko during the last scene of episode 5, so I'm looking forward to seeing that given more attention across a whole episode.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-09, 23:38

I just want to see Homura kicking some ass :heh:

Seriously though, I doubt Kyoko can push Homura to fight for real, so I'm not expecting too much. I just want to see some of her hidden powers. Everything about Homura is so mysterious. I want to know more about her too.

Triple_R

2011-02-10, 00:36

I'm pretty pumped for this episode.

This anime has actually made me consider watching Raws out of sheer anticipation, and I almost never do that, lol.

Similar to Kazu-kun, I'm hoping for a good Homura/Kyoko throwdown.

totoum

2011-02-10, 03:11

This anime has actually made me consider watching Raws out of sheer anticipation, and I almost never do that, lol.

RAWS? I'll be watching the live stream :p

I was planning to wait for subs like last episode , but after Urobochi's latest comments I'm just too curious.

garbage

2011-02-10, 03:25

oh there's a thread for ep. 6 out already hehe been away for some time. should have expected it.

looking for forward to the homura fight^^
which reminds me isn't it weird that here we have a, what 10 yr old (or is it 14?) girl with just a contract signing suddenly can fight well enough with a sword? and to throw them too from afar. wow that's really hard since swords where not meant to be thrown. well i guess thats the magic working there.
related>to those who were critizising sayaka's fighting strat/tactic against kyoko. you know a real fight IS a lot different from theory. I mean i hold a degree in kickboxing and i've been thru lots of fights ( hehe im not bad :P) and i hardly bring in 60% of the technques in, in fact i specialize in nunchucks, but i would never even think of using one in a fight it would harm/hamper me more than being helpful. its mostly downright ugly street fighting ^^. i KNOW a lot of black belter faced with a fight situation, just jumping in and brawling, not even using any of the techniques they learned. much less use range of motion and attack range strategies. it's really hard u see.

well just random thoughts in anticipation of the fights...

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-02-10, 04:43

damn! i can't wait to see homerun-chan kick some ass!!! XDDD

i wanna know how they'll end ep 06 though. i'm betting for another painful cliffhanger that i'm sure would get me banging my head on a wall. XDD

Myssa Rei

2011-02-10, 06:20

Although this hope might be dashed, here's to hoping that MOST of our heroines come out of this episode alive and in one piece.

Mentar

2011-02-10, 10:37

Okay, so let's start a pool. What's gonna happen in ep6? ;)

o Only a brief Homura-Kyoko skirmish, if at all. Homura has no reason to fight Kyoko, and even less reason to avenge Sayaka. Her only priority is to prevent a Madoka panic-contract. Kyoko might try a few swings on Homura, but she's smart enough to back off once she realizes that Homura is no rookie pushover.

o I expect Sayaka's mood to become more sour and aggressive compared to her normal behavior. The preview indicates that she will harbor a grudge against Kyoko and seek revenge. The increased stress and pent-up frustration, along with her massive expenditure of magic in her fights against the familiar and Kyoko will begin to pollute her Soul Gem.

o Likewise, at least in the long run, her desired love with Kamijo is not going to work out. Whether it will be a gradual estrangement with him, or a big bang (Kamijo rejecting her, or Kamijo dying by outside factors) remains to be seen. For this episode, if they go the path of gradual estrangement, I could see their relationship deteriorating, compared to the highlight in ep5.

o Madoka will find herself between a rock and a hard place. She will see that Sayaka is struggling, but she will be unable to really do anything about it. It seems that Sayaka will reject any of Madoka's attempts to make her drop her Kyoko grudge, and she lacks the power to intervene directly. So she'll try to appeal to Homura again. And while I doubt she'll say yes, it might help whacking a chink into her armor.

o Of course QB will know what to do. If I was him, I'd probably run a "working together as 2 MGs would help Sayaka alot" guilt trip ^_^;

Well, let's see.

NutShell

2011-02-10, 11:33

ep 6 need more moaaaaaaaaar homu-homu

Kanon

2011-02-10, 11:42

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 11:54

HOMURAAAAA!!! I freaking love that girl. Saves the day once again. She's a freaking saint!!!!!!!!!!!!!

totoum

2011-02-10, 11:54

Holy cow.

Some people were close but nobody , NOBODY predicted what happened at the end of this episode

scr

2011-02-10, 11:56

Before i say anything about this episode, let's just say that...

Magical girls are liches, and the soul gem their phylactery. In fact, it's worse than that, because liches don't die if their phylactery are removed from their person.

oh, and

Madoka just murdered Sayaka by removing her Soul Gem!

Fortunately, Homerun runs with the strength and stamina of a Six Million Dollars Man and retrieve the Soul Gem back. Can't believe she out of everyone saved Sayaka.

Kanon

2011-02-10, 11:57

HOMURAAAAA!!! I freaking love that girl. Saves the day once again. She's a freaking saint!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn right. Unfortunately, I bet Sayaka will remain completely oblivious to her kindness once again.

Can anyone provide a clear explanation of what Kyubey revealed in this episode? I didn't catch everything.

totoum

2011-02-10, 12:06

Is sayaka still sayaka or has she forgotten who she is?

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 12:06

Not sure about the translation but if this is true....:

If MG overuses magic power they became witches, now confirmed (stated by QB, supposedly) EDIT: [it seems this wasn't confirmed after all], Magical Girls arent humans.
Also almost confirmed that Homura is from future, she adverts Kyouko that something awfull will happens in this city.

panzerfan

2011-02-10, 12:07

This turned out better than I thought. Kyubey actually did state out terms not initially touched upon. However, the allegory with Faustian theme is getting stronger...

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 12:14

Also, it seems they confirmed thatHomura is a jumper. She seems to be able to teleport, but only for a short distance. Hence why she has to teleport a few times while running to save Sayaka

Homura is awesome!!!!!

ChronoReverse

2011-02-10, 12:15

I thought she already demonstrated teleporting in the first episode? Or did some official source spell it out?

As for the Soul Gem thing, I guess the nightmare fuel scene with Sayaka being made into a Magical Girl was actually literal.

panzerfan

2011-02-10, 12:21

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 12:22

A post I liked from /a/. My thought exactly so I'm going to post it as is.

Witches feed on humans, Magic girls feed on witches, QB feeds on the grief seeds they fill (all this is confirmed!!!).
They're slaves, shells of their former selves, existing solely to collect more food for QB, bound by the illusion of freedom.
Matrix-type shit man. As Homura said, once you go magic girl, you're FUCKED BIG TIME.

omimon

2011-02-10, 12:26

Homura is such bro I don't even know how to describe it. To a certain degree I guess some people's prediction was right in that Sayaka really did kick the bucket.

omimon

2011-02-10, 12:28

sirn

2011-02-10, 12:29

I seriously want to kill QB right now.

Feels extremely relieved for the time being.

Sageblink

2011-02-10, 12:30

oh, and

Madoka just murdered Sayaka by removing her Soul Gem!

Fortunately, Homerun runs with the strength and stamina of a Six Million Dollars Man and retrieve the Soul Gem back. Can't believe she out of everyone saved Sayaka.

Must... Resist...

ChronoReverse

2011-02-10, 12:38

Mami's gem is stuck in Charlotte's realm. If anything this make her revival even more hopeless now.

Or she could be stuck in a sort of "I must scream but I can't" sort of disembodied existence. Assuming her Soul Gem is actually still intact anyway.

Hrm, what if the Soul Gem is still intact and is continuing to darken until she's a witch? So if you die, you are guaranteed to go witch and if you live, you have to fight to avoid being a witch.

Still, I'm thinking that if you get killed you're dead, Soul Gem or not. At least I'm hoping so for Mami's sake considering the way this anime is going.

Ichijo

2011-02-10, 13:17

So, fine print to 'I'll grant your wish and give you superpowers, but you have to fight witches' so far, as I think, is:

I'll put your soul into a jewel, that can be lost\broken, turning you into a lich and since the expendable shell you use as a body is magical, you'll need to cleanse your soul gem all the time. If you wont fight them,(slow) or if you overuse your magic(fast), you'll turn into a witch, other magical girls will kill you and I will eat your soul(gem) to imprison you.

Shadow5YA

2011-02-10, 13:19

Sadly, I missed the very beginning of the episode, so I don't know if Homura's power was clarified. Damnit. Thankfully, I was right on time to catch another hint that Homura is from the future. I mean, really, it's pretty much confirmed now.

As I suspected, Kyubey eats grief seeds (from the mouth ON HIS BACK (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9469/1297355391657.jpg)). He literally feeds on despair.

Edit: yeah, Homura's power is either brief time stop or teleportation over short distance. As everyone predicted, something bad happened to Sayaka, but I bet no one predicted who would be directly responsible...

And oh god, I was right. Soul gem = soul of the bearer. Their bodies are just empty husk now. Even Kyoko is outraged by these revelations... I'm not 100% sure Kyubey is evil, but he is without a doubt completely amoral. Where will the story go from there? It doesn't seem like Kyoko will remain an enemy, and there's no way Madoka will make a contract with Kyubey after hearing this.

Saw this coming.

Remember when Sayaka made the contract? We see Kyubey stretch his tentacle ears into Sayaka to pull out the soul gem.

While this is a bit twisted, there is a bright side to this. If the power to become a Puella Magi comes from the Soul Gem, and the Soul Gem originally came from within the person, doesn't that mean every girl had power to make a difference from the start, without Kyubey's help?

Although I wonder how optimistic is possible for this series when Urobuchi Gen is the writer.

Vanish

2011-02-10, 13:19

This is the first time this year I literally kept yelling out "OH SH*T OH SH*T" when Madoka threw Sayaka's Gem away. I had to hit the table with my 'Faust', too. I'd love to comment on the episode but toooooooooooooooooo much epicness. Homura is epic. Kyouko is sexy and epic, Sayaka is stupid but epic "Huh? What?" LOL and Madoka is also epic and a crybaby at that "Oops I just killed you T_T;"... also if Kyubei is not evil he is still the biggest as*hole in that world.

Btw. the source of this episode's poem "Hey Diddle Diddle":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Diddle_Diddle

MartianMage

2011-02-10, 13:32

blargh I think I'll just go to sleep now and pray that the subs are out by the time I wake up. :(

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 14:08

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6935/1297363784717.jpg (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/1297363784717.jpg/)

Two soul gems. Unless it's crap animation (always possible) this explains her god-tier powers.

Midonin

2011-02-10, 14:14

To say this show is affecting the perception of other magical girl shows this season is not an understatement. Between the desire to make Hummy into Kyubey and two other shows having a Kyoko with killing intent, this is making for a very twisty season. On this episode, the revelation about Soul Gems is...rather surprising. Nobody benefits from this but Kyubey, and whatever spawned him must be even worse.

On the upside, there are DDR machines with a techno remix of the OP theme, which I can always appreciate. It's also good to see that Kyoko, despite being a bit of a jerk, is a jerk who's still human. Antagonist doesn't have to mean villain, after all.

omimon

2011-02-10, 14:36

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 14:42

Or it could just be her costume design.

What do you mean? Of course it's the design...

But she has two soul gems there, see? And you're not supposed to have two, because you only have one soul... so what does this mean? Besides the fact that it's probably just a screw up on the animation. :heh:

tsunade666

2011-02-10, 14:44

Kyubei your soooo evil. Even using Sayaka to persuade Madoka into forming a pact.

Grief seed eating Kyubei.

momobunny

2011-02-10, 14:48

What do you mean? Of course it's the design...

But she has two soul gems there, see? And you're not supposed to have two, because you only have one soul... so what does this mean? Besides the fact that it's probably just a screw up on the animation. :heh:

If you're talking about the gems on her hands, I'm pretty sure that it's just the way her costume is designed rather than being an error. I mean, soul gems turning into rings and jewels in the first place is kind of odd... the fact that it might split into two for design purposes isn't really anything out of place.

If you're talking about Sayaka's soul gem or something else entirely... then I'm afraid I don't follow. ^^;

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 14:49

Grief seed eating Kyubei.

He uses the girls' souls to create their soul gems, and then makes them fight witches so he can eat their grief seeds.

So basically, MGs are just kyubey's minions/tools. He's collecting/eating grief seeds, but, to what end??

cat_monster

2011-02-10, 14:49

Homura did such a good job! The more episodes I watch, the more I like her. I guess what Madoka's mom was saying in Ep6 is what Homura is doing.

I seriously want to kill QB right now.

Hear! Hear! :heh:

omimon

2011-02-10, 14:49

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 14:52

the fact that it might split into two for design purposes isn't really anything out of place.

I think it's really odd, considering all the other girls only have one. And no, I don't think it can split.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 14:53

Wait are you talking about the two things on each of her hands?

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. When the MGs transform their soul gems take that form (in different shapes and colors though)

omimon

2011-02-10, 14:54

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. When the MGs transform their soul gems take that form (in different shapes and colors though)

How do you not know if her one gem appears on both hands?

momobunny

2011-02-10, 14:56

I think it's really odd, considering all the other girls only have one. And no, I don't think it can split.

It might have some significance on the story, or it might just be for design purposes. I'm thinking it's the latter. I mean there are only 5 magical girls shown so far, and I don't remember ever seeing a jewel on Mami's outfit (it could've been there, I just don't remember it), it could easily just be different for each girl. It's also possible that only one of them is her soul gem and the other is just there for symmetrical purposes... Madoka was seen designing her own costume, who knows? Maybe they think of the outfit they want and Homura wanted gems on BOTH of her hands. I don't really think it's anything too significant...

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 15:00

It might have some significance on the story, or it might just be for design purposes. I'm thinking it's the latter. I mean there are only 5 magical girls shown so far, and I don't remember ever seeing a jewel on Mami's outfit (it could've been there, I just don't remember it)

It was in her ribbon. And Sayaka's in her navel. Kyoko's in her chest. Homura's in her hand... but unlike all the other girls, she has two.

I don't think is just design. It's either a hint to her power or animation screw up.

momobunny

2011-02-10, 15:09

It was in her ribbon. And Sayaka's in her navel. Kyoko's in her chest. Homura's in her hand... but unlike all the other girls, she has two.

I don't think is just design. It's either a hint to her power or animation screw up.

If it is relevant to the story then I think it's a hint to her power rather than a mistake. You could be right... though I don't understand how you can be so certain. Other than Homura's gems being different from the other 4 magical girls shown, what evidence do you have to base that theory off of?

Either way, maybe it is a hint to Homura's power level. It's a possibility I suppose...

omimon

2011-02-10, 15:09

tsunade666

2011-02-10, 15:15

Well, Kyubey certainly has it right about human getting rather bothered if this 'detail' is explained to them. Having said that, Gen has just opened up the possibility that we have not seen the last of Mami. If I am reading it right, so long as the soul gem is intact and in good order, all's well with puella magi.

Mami's gem is stuck in Charlotte's realm. If anything this make her revival even more hopeless now.

If the chances with the revelation of soul gem. I still doubt mami will return as a magical girl. If she will return it will be a witch. And it will surely be mind f*ck if the current witch is mami turned into witched when left behind in the other realm.

Kyubei really didn't tell "anything" or "everything" to any of his contract. And Homura knowing those things further proof of her existence as a mystery that knows what will happen in the future :cool:

By next episode I doubt Kyoko will be an enemy but still Sayaka is really angry with Homura thanks to mami incident.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 15:15

I think it's just design.

You think they giver her two just because it looks cooler? In this show? Where almost every visual is hinting something (or purposely misleading you)....

Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Kanon

2011-02-10, 15:22

Is sayaka still sayaka or has she forgotten who she is?

She's still the same. She's just confused about what happened. One minute she's arguing with Madoka, and next thing she knows, she's on the floor.

To say this show is affecting the perception of other magical girl shows this season is not an understatement. Between the desire to make Hummy into Kyubey and two other shows having a Kyoko with killing intent, this is making for a very twisty season. On this episode, the revelation about Soul Gems is...rather surprising. Nobody benefits from this but Kyubey, and whatever spawned him must be even worse.

On the upside, there are DDR machines with a techno remix of the OP theme, which I can always appreciate. It's also good to see that Kyoko, despite being a bit of a jerk, is a jerk who's still human. Antagonist doesn't have to mean villain, after all.

In addition to both Kyokos, there is yet another similarity between this show and Kore ha zombie desu ka? Just like Ayumu, the girls are magical girls... and zombies. This is a fun week.

It was in her ribbon. And Sayaka's in her navel. Kyoko's in her chest. Homura's in her hand... but unlike all the other girls, she has two.

I don't think is just design. It's either a hint to her power or animation screw up.

It's an error. She didn't have it the rest of the time. Hell, even the soul gem on her left hand disappeared in some frames. Besides, possessing two soul gems is impossible.

panzerfan

2011-02-10, 15:22

Actually, I think the likelihood of Mami revived as a witch is much more plausible than her to ever manifest as she were, and that's assuming if she does make a return somehow. Her 'soul' being devoured by Charlotte is something that to me is most logical, which obvious would be a case of dead dead.

herbert

2011-02-10, 15:26

If the original character design still holds, Homura is supposed to have a bow as her weapon. The design is still on the official website (although hidden) (http://www.madoka-magica.com/character/homura.html). We know she gets a shield already, two soul gems can explain where the bow comes from.

tsunade666

2011-02-10, 15:33

herbert

2011-02-10, 15:38

but the shield could just be part of her design too. If it's a weapon. The one she uses against the other witch which looks like a bomb is more likely from another soul gem.

But from which, when and where did she get those?She used the shield in episode 1 to defend, so it's more than a decoration. How and where she gets two gems, it can be an important plot point.

Vanish

2011-02-10, 15:44

Come to think of it, considering Homura knew about the 100 meter limit and Kyoko not (see Homura's oh-noes-face), it's gotta be connected to what she experienced in the past. Maybe regarding a random MG, or it could be that it happened before to one of the 5 MGs we know.

Mentar

2011-02-10, 15:49

I wonder if this ep will buy 1-2 eps of respite from the "Homura is evil" crowd. But I'm confident that the "QB ain't evil" proponents will undoubtedly find more excuses for his explicit admission that he was purposely withholding important informations from the girls in order not to discourage them to contract. What a charming fella, who's snacking on saturated grief seeds that his condemned retriever slaves (the MGs) are bringing him...

So, time travel is pretty much confirmed, hm? I sigh a bit because this is opening 987324 of possible explanations for all open questions, which is making things very difficult to predict. I still think that Homura pulled a Chikane on Madoka, but LOTS of other explanations pop up now. So, this ep made the future more murky instead of clear ^_^;

Sorry Sayaka, your ordeals haven't ended yet - they just began. Anew.

Kanon

2011-02-10, 16:14

I suppose I need to post screenshots...

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/) http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/) http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img811.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/)http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/) http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/) http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/)

You can go through the whole episode, and even previous episodes I'm sure, and you'll never find a soul gem on her right hand except in this one sequence. It's obviously an error. The whole scene was full of QUALITY. You can't trust it.

The soul gem on her left hand kept appearing and disappearing too (and it did so in a way that leaves no doubt it was an error):

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/) http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2205/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.th.jpg (http://img703.imageshack.us/i/zerorawsmahoushoujomado.jpg/)

Furthermore, Homura's only got one ring, therefore only one soul gem. Which is perfectly logical, considering her soul gem contains her soul. How could she have two of them?

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 16:36

You think they giver her two just because it looks cooler? In this show? Where almost every visual is hinting something (or purposely misleading you)....

Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then.

It's an error. She didn't have it the rest of the time. Hell, even the soul gem on her left hand disappeared in some frames. Besides, possessing two soul gems is impossible.

See what happens when you go looking for meaning in every little thing? :p

I'm mainly waiting for the subs to get information, so kinda going off what has been said so far, but this is an interesting turn. Even though Kyoko wasn't quite aware, she hit the nail on the head with the food chain idea: every living thing must consume something to stay alive. This isn't good nor evil, just nature in action.

For those curious, no, I still don't consider Kyube evil (might change my mind after watching subs, we'll see). A lot of us would be bothered to watch vultures pick through the remains of a corpse, after all.

And the fact remains that witches ARE a threat to normal humans and must be dealt with somehow.

However, I will state something that a few other people won't; that is, state the exact thing that would make me change my mind: If Kyube were the one to originally start the cycle, perhaps by creating the first witch or deliberately letting the witches into the human world, then I'd consider him evil. Until then, he's just doing what every creature on Earth has done to survive since time began: be a part of the food chain.

But I'm sure there are some people who won't take the step of admitting what kind of evidence would change their mind. :heh:

Vanish

2011-02-10, 16:37

So, time travel is pretty much confirmed, hm? I sigh a bit because this is opening 987324 of possible explanations for all open questions, which is making things very difficult to predict.

I find it great that more possibilities are opened. It's fun to be able to predict things right but I also find it exciting to gain more openings for predictions. Which are fun to make, surely.

Furthermore, Homura's only got one ring, therefore only one soul gem. Which is perfectly logical, considering her soul gem contains her soul. How could she have two of them?

So it's an error, that's better than worse. Makes things less confusing. And two souls... that can be explained by a few theories I don't believe in. Something about Homura being Madoka's alternate self, or/and being the cat from the OP. So it's like... Homura's body + cat's body = 2 souls, or Madoka's alternate self + Homura's body = 2 souls. Eh, something like that. Whatever.

For those curious, no, I still don't consider Kyube evil (might change my mind after watching subs, we'll see). A lot of us would be bothered to watch vultures pick through the remains of a corpse, after all.
I agree but at the same time he's an as*hole either way. :p

Decagon

2011-02-10, 16:38

It makes me wonder how Homura was going to deal with Sayaka if she went through so much trouble to save "Sayaka".

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 16:41

See what happens when you go looking for meaning in every little thing? :p

Uncalled, because I did say it was either a hint or an error.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 16:44

It makes me wonder how Homura was going to deal with Sayaka if she went through so much trouble to save "Sayaka".

Like she dealt with her at the beginig of the episode. Sayaka is so weak in comparison to Homura that she doesn't have to harm her too much to put her out of commision.

Vanish

2011-02-10, 16:48

Like she dealt with her at the beginig of the episode. Sayaka is so weak in comparison to Homura that she doesn't have to harm her too much to put her out of commision.

As Kururugi Suzaku would say, only the result matters. As long as Sayaka lives (and Madoka won't lose another important person), Homura will take all the pain through the progress which isn't as important.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 16:52

I agree but at the same time he's an as*hole either way. :p

Heh, you're fine to think that, but I admit I can't see that. I don't see him anymore evil as a bear killing a cat because he's hungry; he's taking steps to procure sustenance. I can understand his point of view on it, because people would be bothered to learn how he eats. And he's simply feeding on witches, something that is feeding on humans. It's more of a symbiotic relationship.

Now, if he forced things into motion when he had alternate methods of feeding, then I'd see his actions as darker. But if he's merely taking advantage of situations that already exist, then he's amoral.

Question is, will the "Kyube is evil" crowd ever admit to any kind of evidence that would sway their mind? Or are they locked into their belief and nothing will persuade them?

Uncalled, because I did say it was either a hint or and error.

I'll apologize, but I wanted to point out the futility of trying to find meaning in things. The truth is, we'll never know what has meaning until it is referenced later. The Homura hand thing could have just been something cool that she developed(thus why it is not there in earlier shots), and we wouldn't have known until the importance of such was revealed later.

If people get upset with me for trying to reinforce this notion over and over, it is because of this. It's all fine and dandy to pick out something and form a theory over it; after all, speculation is fun. But it is important to remember that we could be making something of nothing (such as Homura's hand clench). The problem comes when people cling to these beliefs as if it is proven fact and cannot be interpretated another way.

Vanish

2011-02-10, 16:56

^I'm basically on the same side, I was just being inappropriate replacing the amoral stuff with a simple "as*hole".:heh:

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 17:02

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 17:04

Heh, you're fine to think that, but I admit I can't see that. I don't see him anymore evil as a bear killing a cat because he's hungry; he's taking steps to procure sustenance. I can understand his point of view on it, because people would be bothered to learn how he eats. And he's simply feeding on witches, something that is feeding on humans. It's more of a symbiotic relationship.

Now, if he forced things into motion when he had alternate methods of feeding, then I'd see his actions as darker. But if he's merely taking advantage of situations that already exist, then he's amoral.

I agree with this. What would be the alternative for him? Letting himself die? If he's simply trying to survive, he's selfish and amoral, but not necessarily evil. If he has more hidden plans, we'll have to wait and see.

So far he's just an antagonist, but I doubt he'll be the Big Bad. What Homura mentioned is quite interesting, I wonder what it has to do with the dream sequence...

Decagon

2011-02-10, 17:06

He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.

Sheba

2011-02-10, 17:09

He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.

So I guess he is the lost cousin of Skull Knight from Berserk.

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 17:10

Then that's different. You have to wonder if those are his real intentions at all, and even if they were, what implications they would have.

Since apparently Homura mentioned that terrible things were to come, perhaps it has something to do with Kyuube succeeding in what he's doing or with side effects of said actions.

Mentar

2011-02-10, 17:12

*shrug* It depends what you base your notion of morality on.

Is a guy flying a passenger jet into the WTC, killing thousands of people evil? Hey, he's waging war against a godless enemy. Is a drug dealer handing heroin to schoolkids evil? Hey, he's wiring money to his sick grandma elsewhere. So what's to be said against a mascot who's deceiving naive kids to sign a contract, turning them into lichs who are slaving for him, pulling every nasty trick in the book to get what he wants? Where the kids are living on borrowed time and can safely be expected not to die on their deathbed?

With this wishy-washy relativist mindset, there's no such thing as evil people at all. EVERYTHING becomes explicable and excusable. At least, in this episode, for the first time QB let some exasperation show at the limitless naivite of Madoka, but also of all other MGs. For me, to let "evil" keep any kind of meaning, you've got to consider

1) What people are doing
2) What the results of their deeds are
3) How they justify what is happening

And if you do that with QB, and still believe that he's doing this to protect the world and its people from harm, and to fight for love and justice... then you should RUSH to see the furry bastard. He's got a great offer for you :) ... and Darwin will nod at you gratefully for caring about the human gene pool.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 17:14

Evil or not, if his actions put him on direct conflict with the protagonists (and especially, Madoka) then he becomes an antagonist. I don't think we're there just yet, but we're getting close to such outcome, I feel.

A story doesn't necessarily need a villain, but it needs an antagonist, and right now all my money is on Kyubey.

True, but an antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be evil. If you were reading a story where there was a virus outbreak, the virus would be the antagonist, but it wouldn't be evil. It just is.

I'll go one further, though. If it is revealed the witches didn't have a choice as to what they became, perhaps being raised by Kyube to be like cows, that would begin to tip my viewpoint to the "he's evil" side. Or perhaps the witches can be shown to have sentience and are merely feeding as well.

On another note, I've never really thought of Homura as evil, either, but as a bit antagonistic (anything that works against the protagonist is an antagonist). Is she evil? I guess I need to watch the subbed episode to have things clarified, but, did Homura know about Kyube's feeding on seeds? If there were things she knew, and didn't bother to share, then she's similar to Kyube.

He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.

Hmm, interesting. Well, I should avoid drawing anymore conclusions until I've watched the episode, but if he's not eating them to survive, but only making sure they won't turn into another witch, then I can disregard my earlier points. But it actually makes him seem more good than evil, if he is deliberately taking steps like that to protect humanity.

And Mentar, beloved Mentar, with the hyperbole... just an fyi: Kyube hasn't taken any lives against their will. But trying to compare what you hate to terrorists... yeah... why not just call Kyube a Nazi and get it over with?

When we have people in this series blowing each other up, then we can revisit your terrorist ideas, kay?

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 17:21

*shrug* It depends what you base your notion of morality on.

Is a guy flying a passenger jet into the WTC, killing thousands of people evil? Hey, he's waging war against a godless enemy. Is a drug dealer handing heroin to schoolkids evil? Hey, he's wiring money to his sick grandma elsewhere. So what's to be said against a mascot who's deceiving naive kids to sign a contract, turning them into lichs who are slaving for him, pulling every nasty trick in the book to get what he wants? Where the kids are living on borrowed time and can safely be expected not to die on their deathbed?

I can see where you're coming from but those you cited are different motivations than your own survival. Assuming this is Kyuube's motivation then I wouldn't consider him evil because it's a physiological necessity (not sure if this is the correct term in English - my first language is Spanish, but I hope I was clear).

If his motivations are different then that's an entirely different story.

And if you do that with QB, and still believe that he's doing this to protect the world and its people from harm, and to fight for love and justice...

Never once I said this. He doesn't have to be good in order to not be evil.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 17:25

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 17:25

True, but an antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be evil. If you were reading a story where there was a virus outbreak, the virus would be the antagonist, but it wouldn't be evil. It just is.

That's the point. I'm not looking for evil characters. I don't care about that. I'm looking for the main antagonist of the series, and right now I think QB is heading to that role.

About Homura, she's trying to keep Madoka from contracting, and right now Madoka doesn't want to contract. So at the moment Homura is not antagonist. She's the supporter.

Narrative roles change all the time, so all this is subject to change. But this is what I'm seeing right now.

Mentar

2011-02-10, 17:34

I can see where you're coming from but those you cited are different motivations than your own survival. Assuming this is Kyuube's motivation then I wouldn't consider him evil because it's a physiological necessity (not sure if this is the correct term in English - my first language is Spanish, but I hope I was clear).

I'd consider it amazingly blue-eyed to conclude based on Kyubey's explanation for devouring the Grief Seed that he'd suddenly run this whole racket for his own survival. It's also absolutely not what he's pitching when he's out hunting naive children for contracts.

Again, the question of "good" or "evil" is inherently linked to the moral-ethical set of beliefs of the beholder. THIS is the reason why one guy's mass murderer (WTC destruction) is another guy's martyr. But in THIS story, the roles are very clear: The viewer is supposed to be on the side of the humans, and from THIS perspective, QB is _evil_, plain and simple. If on the other hand you're fine with "anything goes", then suddenly the devil itself becomes a good man, because he's diligently doing what his role - his nature - tells him to do. Makes any attempt of moral classification pointless.

But hey - 6 more eps to go. You wouldn't honestly think that what Madoka's impulsive deed forced him to reveal this ep was the worst skeleton in his locker, right? We'll have alot more "unexpected revelations" and curious coincidences in the future, too. I'm absolutely sure of that.

herbert

2011-02-10, 17:35

Basically, the terrible thing to come is

Walpurgis Night. I wonder if it is the traditional festival or another reference to Faust. If it's the latter, Madoka's morality is at risk.

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 17:41

I'd consider it amazingly blue-eyed to conclude based on Kyubey's explanation for devouring the Grief Seed that he'd suddenly run this whole racket for his own survival. It's also absolutely not what he's pitching when he's out hunting naive children for contracts.

I agree it's unlikely; hence why I just said assuming that was the case.

But hey - 6 more eps to go. You wouldn't honestly think that what Madoka's impulsive deed forced him to reveal this ep was the worst skeleton in his locker, right? We'll have alot more "unexpected revelations" and curious coincidences in the future, too. I'm absolutely sure of that.

Yeah, we'll certainly have more revelations. But I still don't believe he needs to be evil in order to be an antagonist, nor him being a non-evil antagonist would stop us the viewers from taking Madoka's side.

I don't see it as black and white. It's possible Kyuube is evil, it's also possible he's not evil but he's the antagonist regardless.

fukarming

2011-02-10, 17:41

Homura mentions Walpurgis Night, which is the whole reason Homura is in this town. Walpurgis Night is on April 30 or May 1. If Magical Madoka has 13 episode, the 13th episode will air on Walpurgis Night!

EDIT: forget about it, magical madoka only has 12 episode.

I share Kyubei's frustration that why human cares so much about where their soul is. Why does that matter? As long as they can walk around under their own free will they are good. It is interesting that Kyoko brings out the topic of zombie and someone draws parallel with Koreha Zombie desuka:

Ayumu stated clearly (probably will happen either next episode of the episode after, that he lives a happier life as a zombie than a human

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-02-10, 18:01

WTF! i'm so gonna watch this later. L0L. i love reading spoilers most of the time. XD

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 18:04

Narrative roles change all the time, so all this is subject to change. But this is what I'm seeing right now.

I can agree with that, heh. I, too, think Homura has possibly moved from antagonist to something else at this time.

I'd consider it amazingly blue-eyed to conclude based on Kyubey's explanation for devouring the Grief Seed that he'd suddenly run this whole racket for his own survival. It's also absolutely not what he's pitching when he's out hunting naive children for contracts.

Except, as Decagon pointed out earlier, Kyube is not doing this for his own survival. He's doing it so the witches can't be reborn. So, he's doing it for Humanity's survival. I only put up the "doing it for his survival" aspect because I was looking for reasons as to why he was doing this. Honestly, if you're gonna cling to the evil theme, you should have stuck with believing he was doing it to feed himself. At least then you could have played up the greed angle.

Again, the question of "good" or "evil" is inherently linked to the moral-ethical set of beliefs of the beholder. THIS is the reason why one guy's mass murderer (WTC destruction) is another guy's martyr. But in THIS story, the roles are very clear: The viewer is supposed to be on the side of the humans, and from THIS perspective, QB is _evil_, plain and simple. If on the other hand you're fine with "anything goes", then suddenly the devil itself becomes a good man, because he's diligently doing what his role - his nature - tells him to do. Makes any attempt of moral classification pointless.

Ah, pushing the terrorist angle again, eh? Well, here's another way your reasoning falls apart. If you wanted to accept Kyube as a terrorist, then he's a terrorist to... the witches. He's like Osama, raising up soldiers to go against the great Satan, except the Great Satan are witches.

Which means... you're on the side of the witches, eh? You want to seem them continue to kill humans?

So yeah, to us, Kyube is a savior. To the witches, he's Osama Bin Laden. :heh:

Mentar

2011-02-10, 18:04

Yeah, we'll certainly have more revelations. But I still don't believe he needs to be evil in order to be an antagonist, nor him being a non-evil antagonist would stop us the viewers from taking Madoka's side.

You're not getting my point. He isn't evil in order to be an antagonist, he is evil BECAUSE OF WHAT HE'S DOING. Luring naive kids into a contract commitment while purposely withholding the downsides from them is EVIL. The whole "fight against witches" meme reminds me strongly of mafia thugs demanding protection money from businesses. Just that the thugs you pay to be protected from originate from the same source you're paying. Wanna bet that QB's racket will prove to _create_ witches, too? Also, stalking hesitating girls and consciously pushing them into situations that would compel them to contract is ugly, too.

This is what we KNOW. If someone would do a tenth of that in real life for me, I'd kick his ass all over the place away from me, because as a grown-up with a bit of life experience I'd come to the conclusion "entirely untrustworthy, very fishy, dangerous". Would you buy an insurance from someone who does what he does, the way he does it?

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 18:08

Flower

2011-02-10, 18:11

Admittedly to me at the moment it seems to me that QB's actions spring from amorality ... but no doubt things will become much clearer by the end of the season.

Thus far there have quite a few unexpected surprises, so I would not put it past the animators to totally turn our current impressions and assessments on our heads when all is said and done. :D

Sageblink

2011-02-10, 18:17

From the informations given on this episode, i'm worried about who the final big witch could be. :uhoh:

estdesoda

2011-02-10, 18:18

justsomeguy

2011-02-10, 18:18

What Mentar is doing is presenting a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. He's trying to present only two options: that Kyube is good, or that he is evil. And if he can rule out the former, than he can force you to believe the latter.

The reason why that reasoning doesn't work, is because there are more choices than just good and evil. Quite a few of us have been calling him amoral.
This is not quite correct. The word "amoral" has two possible meanings: 1) morality is irrelevant to the topic, or 2) an individual has no sense of morals. In other words, "amoral" is a personality type, and saying that a person is amoral does not mean they cannot be ranked on a good-to-evil scale (though the scale itself slides based on circumstances; in a situation where the only possible choices can both be described as "evil," than the "lesser evil" is the "good" choice).

Those of you arguing that QB is "amoral" are actually arguing that his motivation of doing what he needs to do to survive is cannot be be labeled good nor evil, which is correct since all animals kill or steal to survive.

From the perspective of the human audience, his methods, especially his dishonesty in not telling the whole story at the start and his manipulation and involvement of innocent little girls, make him "evil."

The entire argument seems to based on confusion surrounding QB's motivations and his methods, both of which can be judged separately. Until we understand the choices that he faced before doing what he did in the story, the good-evil scale cannot be applied from a non-human perspective.

Flower

2011-02-10, 18:28

Mentar

2011-02-10, 18:46

It's terrible. Even when you have someone on your Ignore list (like I have Kaijo) - as much as it helps - you're not safe from his nonsense when someone else quotes him. It's really regrettable that the boards don't have the functionality to filter quotes aswell.

What Mentar is doing is presenting a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. He's trying to present only two options: that Kyube is good, or that he is evil. And if he can rule out the former, than he can force you to believe the latter.

Of course - as usual for him - this is a complete fabricated falsehood. Not once I have argued that Kyubey is "not good, therefore he must be evil". Not ONCE, and easily rechecked - the thread is still short. Whe he would peddle this BS is beyond me, but it reconfirms my decision to blacklist him.

The point which I've consistently been making is this: It's QB's actions which are evil. Directly. You cannot deceive and lure naive kids into a contract like this WITHOUT being evil, if you take the position which you're supposed to take: Sympathetic to Madoka and the other human girls. Just like you are evil (at least in my eyes) when you beat your mother, rape your sister or set your neighbor's house on fire. It's the ACTION which defines it. You don't need to sit back and cackle evilly and do the "ohboy, I'm bad" dance. QB doesn't flinch, and it's quite possible - even likely - that he doesn't even realize that he's doing anything wrong (which would constitute "amoral"). But it IS wrong. The way I see it, his deeds lead to death and suffering, for his own private gain. Which is evil. Usually, when you're amoral, your deeds are evil.

I'd kindly ask any participant of his board not to quote Kaijo anymore where he makes any references to me (or to just delete them pre-quote). Then he can spread whatever he wants without requiring me to acknowledge it. Thank you!

Sageblink

2011-02-10, 18:51

Oh Mentar... I knew it : you are Kyubey !! :D

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 18:52

The point which I've consistently been making is this: It's QB's actions which are evil. Directly. You cannot deceive and lure naive kids into a contract like this WITHOUT being evil, if you take the position which you're supposed to take: Sympathetic to Madoka and the other human girls. Just like you are evil (at least in my eyes) when you beat your mother, rape your sister or set your neighbor's house on fire. It's the ACTION which defines it. You don't need to sit back and cackle evilly and do the "ohboy, I'm bad" dance. QB doesn't flinch, and it's quite possible - even likely - that he doesn't even realize that he's doing anything wrong (which would constitute "amoral"). But it IS wrong. The way I see it, his deeds lead to death and suffering, for his own private gain. Which is evil. Usually, when you're amoral, your deeds are evil.

See, I don't want to get annoying, but we don't know this. At this point it's possible he's doing it for selfish reasons, or he's a tool with no will of his own, used by some higher power, or he actually has a good reason. His methods might be disgusting but we don't know if his motivation is evil or not. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

Mentar

2011-02-10, 19:09

See, I don't want to get annoying, but we don't know this. At this point it's possible he's doing it for selfish reasons, or he's a tool with no will of his own, used by some higher power, or he actually has a good reason. His methods might be disgusting but we don't know if his motivation is evil or not. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

I see your point, but note that I prepended "The way I see it". I was sure after ep2 that QB had his hands in a vicious racket, and that the whole MG circus was a giant pyramid scheme. This episode gave me a big piece of evidence for my suspicion.

What we have here is that his activities are casting young girls into misery and death (ask Mami or Homura, or look what the happy-positive Sayaka is gradually turning into in ep6). And what is it that QB is devouring delightfully? Extra-black Grief Seeds - he's feasting on misery, and his MG slaves are technically _forced_ by the system to provide that to him. Together with the clear Faust reference, it would indicate to me that QB is a devil/demon, and that sounds like a delicious dish for them.

Well, I'm not demanding that everyone needs to share this conclusion yet (hence "the way I see it"). But it never ceases to amaze me how many clues people shrug off. We'll certainly get even more in the next eps, since Urobuchi Gen said that after this ep, the stops are being pulled.

TheDarkness

2011-02-10, 19:16

I just finished watching the raw and had a couple questions, my japanese is not the best. Did Sayaka lose her memory at the end? Also, is it confirmed that Homerun-chan is from the future? Could someone explain to me what Kyubey said in his long dialogue at the end? I am sorry if this has already been touched upon.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 19:22

This is not quite correct. The word "amoral" has two possible meanings: 1) morality is irrelevant to the topic, or 2) an individual has no sense of morals. In other words, "amoral" is a personality type, and saying that a person is amoral does not mean they cannot be ranked on a good-to-evil scale (though the scale itself slides based on circumstances; in a situation where the only possible choices can both be described as "evil," than the "lesser evil" is the "good" choice).

Those of you arguing that QB is "amoral" are actually arguing that his motivation of doing what he needs to do to survive is cannot be be labeled good nor evil, which is correct since all animals kill or steal to survive.

This is exactly it. His motivation in all of this is key for determining whether or not he is good or evil. We're saying that, at best, he's amoral, because we don't know everything. His actions and motivation aren't currently subject to our morality; he has no sense of morals. He just does what needs to be done to fight witches. We need more evidence to judge.

That's in direct contrast to those who have knee-jerked to a judgment before they had all the facts.

From the perspective of the human audience, his methods, especially his dishonesty in not telling the whole story at the start and his manipulation and involvement of innocent little girls, make him "evil."

Do you tell everyone everything? Especially when you know they'll just get upset or not understand? Dishonesty is directly lying. Kyube may have withheld some information, but in the long run, that information wasn't important to know. So, he hasn't lied, just hasn't told some things which he knew would cause people to get emotional and upset.

Until we understand the choices that he faced before doing what he did in the story, the good-evil scale cannot be applied from a non-human perspective.

Agreed.

It's terrible. Even when you have someone on your Ignore list (like I have Kaijo) - as much as it helps - you're not safe from his nonsense when someone else quotes him. It's really regrettable that the boards don't have the functionality to filter quotes aswell.

Mentar, stop whinging; it doesn't suit you. There are other people in this world and not all of them will think like you. Learning to deal with them is part of learning to deal with people in general.

Of course - as usual for him - this is a complete fabricated falsehood. Not once I have argued that Kyubey is "not good, therefore he must be evil".

And if you do that with QB, and still believe that he's doing this to protect the world and its people from harm, and to fight for love and justice...

There, right there. Perhaps you weren't aware of how your words came across, but that's how everyone else here saw it. You're trying to belittle the idea that he can be anything but evil, but saying, "Oh SURE he's good. *snort* He can't possibly be good when you consider all these other things, so the only conclusion left to draw is that he is evil."

Not ONCE, and easily rechecked - the thread is still short. Whe he would peddle this BS is beyond me, but it reconfirms my decision to blacklist him.

As long as you're on this board, you'll run into people like me, and you can't get away. If you need some tips in how to deal with them, let me know. Until then, I'm so very sorry you feel the need to run from the issues.

The point which I've consistently been making is this: It's QB's actions which are evil. Directly. You cannot deceive and lure naive kids into a contract like this WITHOUT being evil, if you take the position which you're supposed to take: Sympathetic to Madoka and the other human girls. Just like you are evil (at least in my eyes) when you beat your mother, rape your sister or set your neighbor's house on fire. It's the ACTION which defines it. You don't need to sit back and cackle evilly and do the "ohboy, I'm bad" dance. QB doesn't flinch, and it's quite possible - even likely - that he doesn't even realize that he's doing anything wrong (which would constitute "amoral"). But it IS wrong. The way I see it, his deeds lead to death and suffering, for his own private gain. Which is evil. Usually, when you're amoral, your deeds are evil.

You're actually getting somewhere here, but sadly, you have to yet show how his actions are evil. Let's recap, shall we?

Kyube makes magical girls to fight witches, which are preying upon humans. At worst, he withholds some information, but it isn't anything which would affect the outcome. As as many of us have done here (not telling someone something because it will just upset them), this is not an inherently bad thing to do. A lot of people can't handle the truth.

If you think this is bad, then you need to present another way. Because so far, you have nothing. His actions are to grant wishes and make magical girls. How you get evil out of that, is beyond me and quite a few others here.

I'd kindly ask any participant of his board not to quote Kaijo anymore where he makes any references to me (or to just delete them pre-quote). Then he can spread whatever he wants without requiring me to acknowledge it. Thank you!

See, this is why ignoring makes you vulnerable. Because I can pick apart your arguments, and everyone else can see where you went wrong. But because you can't see this, you essentially get further and further disconnected from where everyone else is. But if you really want to ignore me, then do so. It just involves not responding. If you can't manage that, then your ignore list is useless.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you are welcome to believe he's evil and a douchebag if you like. Just acknowledge that there is no evidence yet. If there comes such a time as to have evidence that there is, I'll gladly join the "he's evil" side.

But he hasn't raped anyone. He hasn't killed anyone (although dependent upon point of view; if you're technically dead, but you can do anything you could normally do while you were alive, are you really dead? What does the difference matter?). You keep trying to associate him with killers, rapists, and terrorists, which is simply bad hyperbole.

Someone needs to deal with these witches. Maybe what Kyube is doing isn't exactly clean or above board, but he gives a choice, and currently, his method is the only one that works. War is a very dirty business, but sometimes you have to do some things to protect your friends, family, countrymen and fellow humans. At least Kyube is giving us an option.

And again, if it's revealed that he is deliberately doing this to feed on despair or something, then I'll change my mind. But so far, he has simply reacted to what other people did. He hasn't instigated anything.

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 19:23

I see your point, but note that I prepended "The way I see it". I was sure after ep2 that QB had his hands in a vicious racket, and that the whole MG circus was a giant pyramid scheme. This episode gave me a big piece of evidence for my suspicion.

What we have here is that his activities are casting young girls into misery and death (ask Mami or Homura, or look what the happy-positive Sayaka is gradually turning into in ep6). And what is it that QB is devouring delightfully? Extra-black Grief Seeds - he's feasting on misery, and his MG slaves are technically _forced_ by the system to provide that to him. Together with the clear Faust reference, it would indicate to me that QB is a devil/demon, and that sounds like a delicious dish for them.

Well, I'm not demanding that everyone needs to share this conclusion yet (hence "the way I see it"). But it never ceases to amaze me how many clues people shrug off. We'll certainly get even more in the next eps, since Urobuchi Gen said that after this ep, the stops are being pulled.

The Faust references were something that I had forgotten to factor into the equation because I haven't read it, and only informed myself when I saw the ties to this show. In that case that's good supporting evidence that he might have evil motivations, since foreshadowing is always there for a reason.

Triple_R

2011-02-10, 19:34

Well, this episode makes some pretty important revelations, from what I could gather from the raw, and from what I've gathered from this thread so far.

Now, I'm going to want to watch the sub before I make a more detailed take on this episode, and on the issues and fan discussions that it touches on, but I will say now that, in fairness to the "Kyubey is evil" side, this episode basically confirms that he is engaged in serious unethical behavior.

Which is to say that...

He is signing up teenage girls to become magical girls while hiding a key downside to the deal from them, a downside that goes beyond the basic danger aspect of the magical girl profession. This is a deceptive "bad faith" negotiation ploy, and the unethical nature thereof is compounded by the fact that this is a negotiation with teenage girls who can't be reasonably expected to grill Kyubey on all the aspects of being a magical girl before signing up for it.

Since we are dealing with lives here, and not simply dollars and cents, I can understand and respect how someone would call this "evil" and not simply "unethical".

However, I want to see the subs for this before I consider a different personal view on Kyubey, and before I get into greater detail than this.

I'll have more to write after I see the sub.

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 19:45

Kyube makes magical girls to fight witches, which are preying upon humans. At worst, he withholds some information, but it isn't anything which would affect the outcome. As as many of us have done here (not telling someone something because it will just upset them), this is not an inherently bad thing to do. A lot of people can't handle the truth.

This is not true. The information he withholds would mean that the contracts would most likely not be perfected. It's not like the sole difference is that "they'd get upset"; he's making contract with the girls without clearly telling them what they're getting into. While he's not used coercion, and while I am unsure if it's "evil" yet, I don't see how this isn't deceit.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 19:47

This is not true. The information he withholds would mean that the contracts would most likely not be perfected. It's not like the sole difference is that "they'd get upset"; he's making contract with the girls without clearly telling them what they're getting into. While he's not used coercion, and while I can't quite call it "evil" yet, I don't see how this isn't deceit.

What do you mean, not perfected? What is the information that changes the nature? Still waiting on subs myself, because last time I listened to what people said about the episode, it turned out to be not quite true.

Edit: and to be clear, we (and the girls) knew that becoming a magical girl meant you'd fight witches as long as you lived. It didn't seem to be something you could get out of (although we often raised the point about what would happen if a girl simply decided to stop fighting; what forces her?). In return, you get a wish granted and magical powers. Some might not make that bargain, but some would. To me, it comes down to personal choice.

Mentar

2011-02-10, 19:54

Thanks for sending me to sleep feeling quite a bit less weird, Triple R. I've got to admit that having to struggle hard to defend a position which my core feels like it should be the DEFAULT rather than the exception gets strangely unsettling after a while ^_^;

One side revelation I had on the third rewatch... it's obvious that Kyoko - who is supposed to be quite senior - didn't know anything about the Soul Gem proximity issue. Homura on the other hand clearly knew, and acted instantly. So it's safe to assume that Homura is very well-versed in the technicalities of the MG contract.

WHY DIDN'T SHE USE HER KNOWLEDGE TO DISSUADE MADOKA AND SAYAKA?

Does she have the Senjogahara disease? (Very smart and capable, but tremendous deficits on the social dealings side) Or is there something preventing her?

Any plausible explanations welcome, I couldn't come up with any so far...

justsomeguy

2011-02-10, 19:57

Do you tell everyone everything? Especially when you know they'll just get upset or not understand? Dishonesty is directly lying. Kyube may have withheld some information, but in the long run, that information wasn't important to know. So, he hasn't lied, just hasn't told some things which he knew would cause people to get emotional and upset.
I disagree on this point. Withholding information that may cause people to make different decisions is dishonesty, especially when dealing with children who are naive and cannot think of the things that are not being openly discussed. Dealing with children in this scenario is different than a salesman talking with an adult potential customer who has the understanding that there are potential negatives not being openly discussed and the mental faculty to try to think of them. QB pushing children to make (flawed, based on incomplete or inaccurate information) decisions that may lead to their deaths is evil, regardless of whether he gains anything or not. How evil his actions are would depend on what other choices he had and what the consequences of those would have been.

While Mentar's speculation that QB is an evil to the core puppetmaster manipulating everything solely for his own gain and nothing else is probably the most likely scenario, I have to say that would actually be rather unsatisfying. I would much prefer a scenario where QB is admittedly selfish and evil, but an imperfect solution against an even greater evil, and that the only logical choice is to deal with QB and try to live, or face outright destruction without a chance.

Triple_R

2011-02-10, 19:58

Thanks for sending me to sleep feeling quite a bit less weird. I've got to admit that having to struggle hard to defend a position which my core feels like it should be the DEFAULT rather than the exception gets strangely unsettling after a while ^_^;

One side revelation I had on the third rewatch... it's obvious that Kyoko - who is supposed to be quite senior - didn't know anything about the Soul Gem proximity issue. Homura on the other hand clearly knew, and acted instantly. So it's safe to assume that Homura is very well-versed in the technicalities of the MG contract.

WHY DIDN'T SHE USE HER KNOWLEDGE TO DISSUADE MADOKA AND SAYAKA?

Yeeeah, that's a pretty big plot hole. :heh:

Or a pretty big character flaw, depending on your point of view.

Just so you know, Mentar, this is a big part of the reason why I've been defending Kyubey, at least up until now ("If there is this big, awful, yet-to-be-said catch to being a magical girl, then why the heck isn't Homura revealing it?").

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 19:59

What do you mean, not perfected? What is the information that changes the nature? Still waiting on subs myself, because last time I listened to what people said about the episode, it turned out to be not quite true.

Edit: and to be clear, we (and the girls) knew that becoming a magical girl meant you'd fight witches as long as you lived. It didn't seem to be something you could get out of (although we often raised the point about what would happen if a girl simply decided to stop fighting; what forces her?). In return, you get a wish granted and magical powers. Some might not make that bargain, but some would. To me, it comes down to personal choice.

From what I gather in this thread, as I haven't watched the sub yet, it appears the soul gem is their actual soul, so they become something akin to liches with a phylactery; their bodies become empty shells. They die if their soul gem isn't kept recharged or is somehow lost.

I highly doubt the girls would've accepted the contract if they knew this information.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 20:13

From what I gather in this thread, as I haven't watched the sub yet, it appears the soul gem is their actual soul, so they become something akin to liches with a phylactery; their bodies become empty shells. They die if their soul gem isn't kept recharged or is somehow lost.

I highly doubt the girls would've accepted the contract if they knew this information.

You sure they wouldn't have? Let's think about this logically: They already knew from watching Mami, that being a magical girl means you fight until you die, and that death is a very real possibility. They knew it was a lifelong contract that only ends in death. Their body isn't really a shell, since they still eat and experience things. It doesn't really seem like they are dead, just that their soul is now given physical form. Mami still died from having her head chopped off. If she was a lich or undead, she wouldn't have died from that. They are still very much flesh and blood.

Now think about it from a different perspective and answer a question: If someone offered to draw out your soul and turn it into an item that would give you power... would you do it? Knowing it would turn you into a superhero?

To me, this information doesn't change the end result too much. If the girls thought about it logically, they'd probably conclude that. Then again, they'd probably react emotionally and not calmly think things through.

A question I have asked before, but haven't had anyone answer yet: If someone like Kyube came along and offered you super powers to fight evil creatures and protect people, would you do it? Even knowing that death is a real possibility? Perhaps not everyone would. I would, so maybe that is coloring my feelings some. But I recognize it's not something everyone could handle.

And in all fairness, Kyube could have explained this before. But when I think about it logically, and knowing how emotionally some people react, I can see why he didn't. Had it been me, I would have grilled Kyube for all the details before, but these girls don't seem quite smart enough to do that (which has been bugging me for a long time now.

But it is interesting that Homura knew this, too, and didn't say anything. So if Kyube is evil and bad for withholding information, then so is Homura. Personally, I don't think either of them evil, but time could change my opinion.

But yeah, I'll wait for the subs to get a better handle on exactly what was said, so I can form a better opinion.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-10, 20:31

Well is lying by omission cheating? If not, then i could say i own the Effiel tower and want to sell it to you. After i get your money, i give you a model of the Effiel tower. Oh sorry, i didn't mention it?

Anyone still wanting to say Kyubei is fair and netural? :)

Ahhh, more lulz will be coming with every episode.

I foresee some will start backtracking and preparing excuses but the lulz will not spare them especially those with so may funny quotes :D

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-02-10, 20:31

i'm just seriously hoping homura has good reasons as to why she didn't inform the two about it all. DX i won't be able to accept that she's if ever. DX

i want to know more about homura. i'm so worried. DX

Key Board

2011-02-10, 20:35

I hate arguing about semantics

but to avoid even more arguments about that let's just say that I don't sense any active contempt from QB

on the other he is very shrewd businessman, he doesn't explain all the rules, he is lacking in empathy, and feeds on grief (seeds)

at the very least I can say that he is amoral (not immoral) and that being a magical girl is a bad baaad thing

I'd give him the amount of trust I give Koemushi from Bokurano.

The thing with QB is he's becoming more and more like the archetypal devil when regarding the truth. Devils don't lie, they just never
tell you everything, or they only tell you part of the truth

So dealing with him becomes difficult. You can't totally ignore him since he might provide bits of information. At the same time you wonder
what he is not telling you. Like that bit about witches potentially reviving when you dump too much black spots on their grief seeds. Is he in fact, implying that something similar might happen if too many black spots cover your soul gem?

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-10, 20:44

So he's done some extremely questionable things, he's manipulative and deceitful and he's not trustworthy. He's also dangerous. That's fine. We agree there.

I still want to know his motivations before calling him evil. I guess it's a matter of the definition of the word "evil".

Here are some examples that you may wish to consider if they are evil. These are all manipulative, deceitful and dangerous. The last is from a view point of an animal but this animal has human intelligence (which is one point many seem to be missing)

i) Enron's CEO encouraged their staff to buy their shares a few days before it collasped. Those who did screwed their old age funds and could be homeless and/or bankrupt and that includes your parents. Evil? Not evil?

ii) A con man tricks your parents into thinking you've been kidnapped and get them to give him their life savings, their house (sold) and your savings. Evil? Not evil?

iii) Man drives on the road with a semi and ignores any sedan sized car smashing them and their passengers aside or simply rolling over the motorcyclists because he can't see or hear very well. Evil? Not evil?

iv) Your new girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you. Evil? Not evil?

v) Cannibal says he's like that because of a DNA problem and he's not exactly human and its true. He proceeds to eat your dad who he coerced into knocking himself out by threatening to harm you. He says he would like to eat your mom too because he's still hungry. Maybe he just enjoys eating or he's really still hungry. You don't know. Evil? Not evil?

anomono

2011-02-10, 20:44

Let's put it this way: a life and a soul are potentially very different things. Sacrificing your life is nothing compared to offering up your soul for eternal torment to be served in Qベ's stomach, or whatever other fate awaits it.

Decagon

2011-02-10, 20:45

Except, as Decagon pointed out earlier, Kyube is not doing this for his own survival. He's doing it so the witches can't be reborn. So, he's doing it for Humanity's survival. I only put up the "doing it for his survival" aspect because I was looking for reasons as to why he was doing this. Honestly, if you're gonna cling to the evil theme, you should have stuck with believing he was doing it to feed himself. At least then you could have played up the greed angle. Outwardly this is the case, but that would require us to assume that he isn't actively safekeeping grief seeds other girls not near him are using to the almost-hatching-the-witch point. It also brings into the question of what those girls do with the seeds if they aren't using it past that point. In the scene he warns Sayaka that she shouldn't use the seed she got from Elly any more and he takes it for safe keeping, but there is no conversation about what would happen if, say, Sayaka were to just leave it without using it anymore. If the episode tells us anything, he does not provide upfront information that would be good to know.

I wanted to comment on the 17:13 message of yours, but the subs should probably help clear it up and sound less quarrelsome than I.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-10, 20:50

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 21:35

Outwardly this is the case, but that would require us to assume that he isn't actively safekeeping grief seeds other girls not near him are using to the almost-hatching-the-witch point. It also brings into the question of what those girls do with the seeds if they aren't using it past that point. In the scene he warns Sayaka that she shouldn't use the seed she got from Elly any more and he takes it for safe keeping, but there is no conversation about what would happen if, say, Sayaka were to just leave it without using it anymore. If the episode tells us anything, he does not provide upfront information that would be good to know.

One of the things I've always wondered about, is exactly how many MG's are there? Are they all over the world? How would a single Kyube handle all of them, especially since he is seeming to spend a lot of time around Madoka and Sayaka and the rest. If the witch problem, and thus MGs, are all centered around Tokyo (or wherever this place is), and he can teleport around, that would be one way. Another is that there could be more than one Kyube, or the real Kyube is using the magical animal we see as sort of a puppet. Thus, he can project his words and such all over the place.

You're right that we don't know what he's doing with the seeds, and we do only have his word that he is safeguarding them, but until we have a better idea of why that is, we only have speculation to go on.

Okay, having said that, finally watched the subs, so I'm gonna work through some of my thoughts.

Kyube is obviously not human, in that he doesn't quite understand human emotions. Or he lacks them totally, and functions as sort of a robot. He clearly didn't seem to understand why people would get upset, when from his point of view, what he does is logical. He does understand some things, such as when he told Madoka that he could say some things to Sayaka, but knows it wouldn't do anything to persuade her otherwise. This harkens back to Kyoko as well, and sheds light as to why he didn't do more to dissuade her; he knew it wouldn't do any good.

He takes a soul and hardens it in a gem, so that the body can handle the stresses of magic, and be easily repaired by magic. This allows them to stand up to witches; without it, someone couldn't use magic or handle a witch fight. There is a clear method to the cost of using magic here, so if Madoka is going to become an MG, she'd have to pay the cost as well. If she gets out of that cost somehow, it will cheapen the sacrifices everyone else has made and make her lucky.

As a side note, where was Mami's soul gem again? I think I read someone say it was in her hair, which would have meant the witch ate it, and thus probably not likely she could come back. But to hear Kyube explain this, even if you had your head taken off, as long as your gem is intact, you could be put back together. That's some damn fine durability there.

I'm more impressed with Sayaka; she's not just naive and knows very well what is at stake. She clearly wants to protect others, from witches or MG's. She's still a bit hot-headed, but it is an interesting back and forth that she has with Madoka there. Madoka clearly represents the ideal, while Sayaka is swinging more pragmatically, while still retaining a desire to protect.

In an idealistic universe, Madoka would be right. But in a cynical universe, Sayaka would be more correct. Time will tell as to which this is, although it is leaning to cynical (which would make any Madoka powerups that don't involve costs to be contrary). But it's interesting to see Sayaka is swinging more in line with Kyoko and Homura.

About this Wdskjfgkjd night thing; it was something that Kyoko clearly knew about, too, and it almost sounds like some sort of tournament or fight. Kyoko thought she would be better off with a friend helping her out in it.

Regarding Homura - Still wondering about this girl. She clearly knew about Soul Gems, but didn't see fit to tell Madoka or Sayaka about it. Why not? If people consider Kyube evil for not telling them, they'd have to call Homura evil, too. Still not entirely convinced she is from the future, but it is a possibility. You can't change the past without creating a grandfather paradox, so it is unclear what she expects to do. Perhaps she is going back in time to create the conditions that would send her future self back in time. Perhaps she's not going to change anything, but merely fulfill what had already happened, and will happen again. If time travel is involved, this is the most likely explanation. I won't speculate too much more, other than to say there are still a few other possibilities (one being that she is a precog and can see possible futures)

Lastly, back to Kyube... I can see why he didn't say anything to the girls. It sounds like this has happened before. Perhaps he told girls and they decided not to. Without girls to fight witches, the witches kill more humans. So, if you are Kyube, you have a choice:

#1. Keep telling girls and hope that some can handle it (and yeah, we all know how young girls can be logical and totally keep their emotions in check)

#2. Leave that part out, as ultimately it doesn't matter much, and you get your soldiers to fight and protect humanity.

It's clear Kyube picked #2. It's not an easy choice to make, and even I would have a tough time doing it. Sometimes, the general just can't tell the troops the full truth, because sometimes people can't handle it. And yet, without the troops, we're all doomed. Which do you pick? If you said #1, that would be the idealistic choice. #2 is the more cynical universe choice.

Which universe are we in again?

I am beginning to lean a bit towards Kyube not being too "good" (in a relative sense). At least, he has done some questionable things, even if I understand the logic. But as noted above, the choice doesn't seem to be an easy one.

That's all my thoughts for now. I'll probably have more later.

karuroso

2011-02-10, 21:56

That Walpugisnacht seems to be a reference of something i'm fail to understand D= anyone could enlighten me please

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 22:09

That Walpugisnacht seems to be a reference of something i'm fail to understand D= anyone could enlighten me please

Walpurgis Night (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night) thanks to the wiki.

Seems like a meeting of sorcerers and witches. Interesting. Will all witches and magical girls come together in the same spot? If so, what will happen? The plot thickens....

BarbecueSauce

2011-02-10, 22:09

That Walpugisnacht seems to be a reference of something i'm fail to understand D= anyone could enlighten me please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night

It's the night when witches hold a large celebration.

karuroso

2011-02-10, 22:17

thanks =D at first i thought this name was from a powerful witch, maybe that one from the first ep, it could be ,but now it also seems to be more than one witch D=

MeoTwister5

2011-02-10, 22:27

The devil is in the details

I think the episode perfectly elaborates this statement of how the cunning contractor operates. The precise reason as to why you should alwys read the fine print. Then again qb is not obligated to be completely forthcoming with his information. Dishonest he is, but on the subject of moral relativism, this does not exactly make you evil. He's almost like say Lawful Neutral. He is doing something considered good for everyone at large but does not let the concept of morality limit him.

The cyclic nature of the struggles of the Mg vs witches is indicative of the circle of life concept. Again this feel very cyclical in nature like this has been going for longer than anyone could possibly imagine. Qb himself almost seems like transcending existence who has seen things like this more than once. Watching him and Homura makes me think that my recurrence theory might even be correct or at least partially viable.

As is stands there does seem to exist evil in his actions but a bit of nobility in his intentions. We do have to ask though on what universal moral basis we must judge him and his rather Machiavellian methods. More comments when I watch subs.

Dark Wing

2011-02-10, 22:28

Just saw the subs and wow that was a heavy revaluation...It's just what can I saw up you have to see it to believe it...

However (and I know some people will disagree) I still don't think Kyuube is "evil" sure his practices may seem evil but it's still seems to be for the greater good.

Decagon

2011-02-10, 22:32

As a side note, where was Mami's soul gem again? I think I read someone say it was in her hair, which would have meant the witch ate it, and thus probably not likely she could come back. But to hear Kyube explain this, even if you had your head taken off, as long as your gem is intact, you could be put back together. That's some damn fine durability there. I'd say it was in her hair ornament, too. As magic is used up to fix the damage, this probably explains why Charlotte had to chew on Mami for a bit before her magic disappeared and her two parts disconnected.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 22:39

As is stands there does seem to exist evil in his actions but a bit of nobility in his intentions.
How can you say that if you don't even know his intentions? It's not that he ever told the girls they where fighting the witches to protect people or something. The girls themselves (including Mami) came up with that, but Kyubey never confirmed it nor denied it. So we can't judge his intentions at all because their still unknown. For now, we can only judge his actions, and they're quite despicable. To put it simple, he's a jerk.

MeoTwister5

2011-02-10, 22:46

Oh I'm not denying the evil in his actions, but I'm also not denying the possible Machiavellian intent behind said actions. There is a sort of public service in his contracting gig, but it would be irresponsible to declare him an absolute evil outright despite the moral relativism thaT seems to be onw of the core themes of the show.

Dark Wing

2011-02-10, 22:55

Also if you think about it I would be very difficult to recruit Magical Girls all the time so why not make them virtually immortal on top of the super powers?

Sure you run the risk of losing your soul however these little detail can me over looked when you think about the over all gain and importance of your job.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 22:56

Let's put it this way: What he is doing is benefiting humanity. He is furnishing us with the tools to defend ourselves.

Perhaps he is doing it in a way that makes you uncomfortable, but unless we have a better option, we're stuck with what works. If you believe this to be a cynical universe, then Kyube's way is the right way. Anyone who spouts idealistic nonsense (like Madoka) is simply being a naive fool. Sacrifices have to be made. That's the way the world works, and naivete is useless at best, and downright dangerous at worst (witness Madoka "tossing her friend away").

Kyube is the pragmatic realist in a cynical world. we may hate him, but we have to grudgingly realize that he's right. Unless we have a better option, we just have to suck it up and accept that this is the way things have to be done.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 22:59

Sure you run the risk of losing your soul however these little detail can me over looked when you think about the over all gain.

What it the overall gain? I mean it's not that you've ever seen a happy magical girl in this show, right? They're all screwed one way or another. You can speculate about hypothetical gain and such, but in the actual show there's no a single example of it.

Dark Wing

2011-02-10, 23:01

Let's put it this way: What he is doing is benefiting humanity. He is furnishing us with the tools to defend ourselves.

I agree and for those how say Kyuube is dishonest well dishonesty may be the only way for him to get his job done. Can you really picture trying to get someone to join your war effort by reminding them about how dangerous it can be?

What it the overall gain? I mean it's not that you've ever seen a happy magical girl in this show, right? They're all screwed one way or another. You can speculate about hypothetical gain and such, but in the actual show there's no a single example of it.

Well at least in this show you get something for your hard work One wish, Super Powers, and Immortality?

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 23:02

Kyube is the pragmatic realist in a cynical world. we may hate him, but we have to grudgingly realize that he's right. Unless we have a better option, we just have to suck it up and accept that this is the way things have to be done.
You can only say that if you assume he's doing this whole thing for humanity's sake. But that in itself is speculation, because he never said such a thing. And without it, this whole theory falls to pieces.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 23:03

"Sign up for World War II, kids! You'll risk death, losing limbs, and come back with mental issues, but you'll be helping to save the free world from a dire threat!"

...

"Hmm, why is no one signing up? Maybe we need a different campaign, and should probably gloss over the bad stuff, or else we'll lose the war..."

Edit:

You can only say that if you assume he's doing this whole thing for humanity's sake. But that in itself is speculation, because he never said such a thing. And without it, this whole theory falls to pieces.

Whether he is doing it for humanity is ultimately irrelevant. Even if he is doing it for selfish measures (Maybe the grief seeds are currency where he comes from, so he's getting rich), he's still helping. He's like an arms dealer, supplying the allies with weapons that will help them defeat Germany in World War II.

fertygo

2011-02-10, 23:04

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 23:06

Any wish in the world, Super Powers, and Immortality?

In the end, all that means nothing if it doesn't make you happy, right?

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 23:07

I'm really don't like the way you said your point, its like u justifying brothel persuating poor girl to be prostitute. Its give them money to live anyway !

Sorry if my analogy was little bit extreme.

I didn't want to do this, but at this point I think it is prudent. If you haven't already, go to this page and read up on the concept:

Sliding Scale of Idealism versus Cynicism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism)

Even if you have read it before, refresh yourself. Because a lot of points in this debate hinge on which universe you believe Madoka to fall into. Once you've made your choice, we can talk.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-10, 23:13

Whether he is doing it for humanity is ultimately irrelevant. Even if he is doing it for selfish measures (Maybe the grief seeds are currency where he comes from, so he's getting rich), he's still helping. He's like an arms dealer, supplying the allies with weapons that will help them defeat Germany in World War II.

So that's it. As long as his actions are convenient for humanity (even it was just a side effect) then it doesn't matter what's his real intention, you say.

Interesting...

AvatarST

2011-02-10, 23:19

Here are some examples that you may wish to consider if they are evil. These are all manipulative, deceitful and dangerous. The last is from a view point of an animal but this animal has human intelligence (which is one point many seem to be missing)

i) Enron's CEO encouraged their staff to buy their shares a few days before it collasped. Those who did screwed their old age funds and could be homeless and/or bankrupt and that includes your parents. Evil? Not evil?

ii) A con man tricks your parents into thinking you've been kidnapped and get them to give him their life savings, their house (sold) and your savings. Evil? Not evil?

iii) Man drives on the road with a semi and ignores any sedan sized car smashing them and their passengers aside or simply rolling over the motorcyclists because he can't see or hear very well. Evil? Not evil?

iv) Your new girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you. Evil? Not evil?

v) Cannibal says he's like that because of a DNA problem and he's not exactly human and its true. He proceeds to eat your dad who he coerced into knocking himself out by threatening to harm you. He says he would like to eat your mom too because he's still hungry. Maybe he just enjoys eating or he's really still hungry. You don't know. Evil? Not evil?

I would consider all of those evil. #5 is questionable but then again I expect that we as the viewers will know whether Kyuube enjoys eating or he's actually hungry.

fertygo

2011-02-10, 23:26

Even if you have read it before, refresh yourself. Because a lot of points in this debate hinge on which universe you believe Madoka to fall into. Once you've made your choice, we can talk.

I'm not interested to have endless wall of text debate with you, its not like gonna ended with something anyway. Just telling your post kinda amusing.

But geez... the thing is QB is manipulating those girl n not telling everything they should know. And how you can be so sure what he doing is for "Justice's side" is 100% right and thus make all of his action is justified?

I don't believe this show is only about Black and White.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 23:30

So that's it. As long as his actions are convenient for humanity (even it was just a side effect) then it doesn't matter what's his real intention, you say.

Interesting...

Not quite. It means that, if he's doing it for a selfish reason (such as getting rich), then I don't care much. He's still helping us win the war. Everyone is selfish; we do things in our own best interest all the time.

I've already stated things that would make me think he's evil. I can post them again if you like. His intentions do play a role, but to date, we haven't seen anything from his intentions other than his desire to make magical girls to fight witches.

That's it.

Anything else is pure speculation. And if it is revealed that Kyube set this whole thing up so he could have MG's and witches fighting each other, then I'll think he's evil. Not before. :p

I'm not interested to have endless wall of text debate with you,

Well then, don't respond to someone, and don't come into a discussion forum, if you aren't interested in a discussion. :heh:

But geez... the thing is QB is manipulating those girl n not telling everything they should know. And how you can be so sure what he doing is for "Justice's side" is 100% right and thus make that let all his action is justified?

I don't know. That's the point. There are people here claiming they do know, even though we haven't been provided with that kind of proof yet. Do you think it is sensible to jump to a conclusion that someone is bad when we don't have proof? Sure, things may look a bit sketchy, but looks can always be deceiving.

I don't believe this show is only about Black and White.

Agreed. Kyube is neither good nor evil, black nor white (well, he does have white fur :heh:). He's kinda like a robot, a tool designed to facilitate the plot. He just *is*.

If anything, I'd say the antagonist was the overall situation. If this were a more idealistic series, I'd expect our heroes to find some neat and sparkly idea that would resolve everything nicely.

In a cynical universe, even nice guys have to do "bad" things in order to win.

Bad guy: "Sure I killed tons of people. But if you shoot me, you'll be no better than me!"
Cynical protagonist: "Maybe. Maybe not. But if I let you live, you'll get off and repeat the whole tragedy again. So I guess I'll just learn to live with myself." *shoots and kills the bad guy*

Naive person: "Why did you kill him!? That wasn't necessary! We could have convinced him to come to the good side!"

J the Drafter

2011-02-10, 23:32

I was annoyed at Madoka this episode. First she didn't understand that Kyoko wanted to kill Sayaka, then she tossed the source of Sayaka's powers where neither of them could retrieve it while a dangerous enemy was right in front of them. Can't she think?

Makender

2011-02-10, 23:35

serenade_beta

2011-02-10, 23:38

Q-Beh... :heh: Gotta love how he asks Madoka to make a contract with her every episode.
But anyways, the shocking truth! :eyespin: That's why you have to read the contract entirely before you sign. This is a good lesson for all viewers, yes, indeed.
But still... :heh: Q-Beh's way of thinking... The same level as the typical RPG final boss. :heh: A lot of final bosses supposedly try to do "good" but does stuff that seems or is evil to others.

........................Madoka is so annoying. ( -_-)
Q-Beh is so evil, it's great, but Madoka is so "kind", it's bad.

PS: The dimensions of that wine glass was kind of weird... The size of the ice, the amount of wine in it... Kind of odd, but that is also Shaft quality.

akei1

2011-02-10, 23:39

Honestly, Kyube's response to Madoka's whimpering right at the end makes me think that he has disclosed this imformation before to ill magical girl recruiting effect. Kyube seems like a utilitarian to me or one who places the most value on practicality and efficiency. Hardly one to be evil. Just a different outlook on how things should get done.

There's a form of lying called Lying by omission: One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

QB admitted that everyone were disturbed when he told them the truth about the Soul Gem in the past.

When QB didn't tell someone the truth about the Soul Gem, knowing it would disturb them, he's lying by omission. QB is definitely not neutral; he is being manipulative to form contracts. His methods are evil but sometimes you fight evil with evil lol

I never took the term Soul Gem literally. Really shocking good episode.

Guardian Enzo

2011-02-10, 23:45

Blog post (http://lostinamerica-deeg.blogspot.com/search/label/Mahou%20Shoujo%20Madoka%20Magica):

I find the discussion of this series most fascinating, not surprising given how intellectually dense and hard to predict as it is. I personally find these defenses of Kyuube to range from specious to outright laughable - the end justifying the means is a weak argument even when in its strongest form, which is certainly isn't here - but when you have folks defending it even after it admits it sucks out little girls' souls and turns them to stone as part of a contract signed under false pretenses, it's clear this is not a voting block that's going to be easily persuaded.

That was certainly a dark and grim episode even by this show's standards. While I'm quite secure in my view on Kyuube I'm not going to defend Homura as 100% pure either. In some ways she's as opportunistic as Kyuube is, apparently - I think she's primarily interested in Madoka and the other humans (and ex-humans) are relevant to her - as to Kyuubee - only as tools to accomplish her goal of keeping her from its clutches. Even the act of retrieving the stone that was Sayaka and reanimating her corpse was only done to keep Madoka from falling into total despair, it seems to me, rather than any feelings for Sayaka. We don't really know much about Homura's goals at this point - indeed, whether she too is a zombie, or from the future, or something else altogether - only that her methods are considerably more ethical and humane than Kyuube's.

I really admire what Urobuchi and Shinbo are doing here. They've been totally fearless in subverting the Mahou Shoujo genre. Nothing is sacred, no corner too dark or despair too deep. it's like they've taken every ugly and twisted thought you might have had about what could be going on under the surface of a MG series and given it life. Because of that this is a unnerving but exhilarating series to watch - there's no sense of a buffer zone, a safe place where you know "at least things won't get to that level." Anything could happen - that's obvious by now - so don't get too comfortable...

Makender

2011-02-10, 23:47

There's a form of lying called Lying by omission: One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

QB admitted that everyone were disturbed when he told them the truth about the Soul Gem in the past.

When QB didn't tell someone the truth about the Soul Gem, knowing it would disturb them, he's lying by omission. QB is definitely not neutral; he is being manipulative to form contracts. His methods are evil but sometimes you fight evil with evil lol

I never took the term Soul Gem literally. Really shocking good episode.

Yes, so he stopped telling them the truth outright. Don't know if that's evil per se, but this has already been beaten dead. Guess this just rings true to the overall theme of the episode that sometimes you've gotta do something wrong to achieve something "right," ultimately ending with Madoka's misinterpretation of her mother's words and incredibly thoughtless actions.

Anyways, any one else getting dark corruption vibes from Sayaka. She's getting more unlikable in my book episode by episode.

Kaijo

2011-02-10, 23:53

There's a form of lying called Lying by omission: One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception.

So, do you believe Homura is evil then? Is she a liar as well?

I find the discussion of this series most fascinating, not surprising given how intellectually dense and hard to predict as it is. I personally find these defenses of Kyuube to range from specious to outright laughable - the end justifying the means is a weak argument even when in its strongest form, which is certainly isn't here - but when you have folks defending it even after it admits it sucks out little girls' souls and turns them to stone as part of a contract signed under false pretenses, it's clear this is not a voting block that's going to be easily persuaded.

That's the key right there: people like me can be persuaded. I've even stated up front what it would take. Those cannot be persuaded, are those that have already made up their minds. They believe Kyube is evil, and nothing will sway them. So yes, one side is open to persuasion, while another is not. At least, I am. :p

And "ends justify the means" has been done in many stories before as a legitimate tactic. That's what happens in cynical universes. Let's look up our lovable rogue, Han Solo. In the original, he shot first. He made his living smuggling stuff, and wasn't afraid to shoot to kill. Was he evil?

I really admire what Urobuchi and Shinbo are doing here. They've been totally fearless in subverting the Mahou Shoujo genre. Nothing is sacred, no corner too dark or despair too deep. it's like they've taken every ugly and twisted thought you might have had about what could be going on under the surface of a MG series and given it life. Because of that this is a unnerving but exhilarating series to watch - there's no sense of a buffer zone, a safe place where you know "at least things won't get to that level." Anything could happen - that's obvious by now - so don't get too comfortable...

If you really think this, you haven't watched enough of the genre, heh. Dark and grim mahou shoujo has been done before. That's not to say that Madoka doesn't have some redeeming merit; it does. It's a decent show (just hoping the plot holes are resolved). But as you yourself have stated, this has happened before, especially if you believe this is Faustian in nature.

Guardian Enzo

2011-02-11, 00:05

So, do you believe Homura is evil then? Is she a liar as well?

If you really think this, you haven't watched enough of the genre, heh. Dark and grim mahou shoujo has been done before. That's not to say that Madoka doesn't have some redeeming merit; it does. It's a decent show (just hoping the plot holes are resolved). But as you yourself have stated, this has happened before, especially if you believe this is Faustian in nature.

I don't think Homura is evil based on her actions so far, because I don't believe any of her actions have been evil. I just don't see enough evidence to draw a conclusion one way or the other on whether she's good or merely motivated by self-interested in her case. I happen to believe the case with Kyuube is much more clear-cut.

Yes, MG series have been dark and grim before - but I think this one has shown a willingness to go places that even those darker shows have been less willing to go. I'm not going to throw Faust into that argument because Faust is irrelevant to it - Faust isn't an anime, it's a 16th Century German legend. In terms of apples to apples, I think other MG shows have had a circuit breaker that, based on what I've seen so far, I don't believe this one has. I could be wrong and maybe Shinbo will sell out in the end, but it's still pleasingly unsettling even if I still enjoy the show intellectually more than emotionally.

Kaijo

2011-02-11, 00:13

I don't think Homura is evil based on her actions so far, because I don't believe any of her actions have been evil. I just don't see enough evidence to draw a conclusion one way or the other on whether she's good or merely motivated by self-interested in her case. I happen to believe the case with Kyuube is much more clear-cut.

Well, it's interesting to note, because the one point of evidence for Kyube being evil, is that he has withheld information. That's a point I'd actually agree tends to lend weight to that argument. Unfortunately, if we want to be fair, then we have to realize Homura has done the same thing. So equal judgments apply.

For the record, I believe neither one to be evil based on withholding information. And given what we have learned of Kyube, he is acting 100% pure logically without regard for emotion.

Yes, MG series have been dark and grim before - but I think this one has shown a willingness to go places that even those darker shows have been less willing to go.

Attempted rape? :p The same series had a few deaths, too, of people that didn't come back.

Hypernova

2011-02-11, 00:14

ep6 thoughts:

-This ep I noticed that QB does say that GS is used to purify SGs instead of powering them like what Mami says, and he didn't correct her when she was explaining to the girls. This ep Sayaka didn't even call him out on it. QB may not lie, but he manipulates by letting you come to your own conclusions and let you think it's true by staying silent (unless you ask).

-Given that your body is powered by magic, it's clear that simply by existing you are tainting your SG, this it the enforcing mechanism people have been wondering about.

Iknowwhatyou

2011-02-11, 00:25

lol one thing popped into mind this episode was "contract" someone should sue QB at magical court.He didn't even give them the full of the contract! That is wrong and sueable!

estdesoda

2011-02-11, 00:30

"Sign up for World War II, kids! You'll risk death, losing limbs, and come back with mental issues, but you'll be helping to save the free world from a dire threat!"

...

"Hmm, why is no one signing up? Maybe we need a different campaign, and should probably gloss over the bad stuff, or else we'll lose the war..."

I agree that IF Kyube is being deceiving so that there would be soldiers to save the humankind, then he is not evil (accroding to my definition of "evil", at least). I would not like him, but I would also not say that he is wrong.

However, that is a big IF that we don't know. He might be some selfish mean monster or devil that feeds on the soul of the perhaps-fallen-magical- girls (aka maybe the witches). WE DON'T KNOW.

There currently exists no direct evidence to say whether he is evil or he is not.

Well, he is a freaking DECEVING little furry smiling-only-perhaps-freaking-looking creature for sure. If somebody decideds that the act of "deceving naive girls to risk their lives" is itself evil, regardless of why, then I would agree that Kyube is evil by this particular definition. Really depends on what you think is evil.

Reckoner

2011-02-11, 00:40

People's arguments in this thread have presented opinions going from the sensible to the absolutely ludicrous. Lets step back for a moment and look at this issue sensibly.

Is Kyube good, evil, or neither?

On what scale are we basing this on...The morality of humans? And if so, of which society, or of which viewpoint?
Most importantly, are magical girls a necessary existence in this world for the greater good? Does it only serve the benefit of Kyube himself, and if so is it for survival or is it for some other purpose?

I think this is important to keep in mind as we try to decipher the actions of our so called little mascot.

At this very moment, there simply isn't enough information available to answer all these questions. It's fine to believe in what you want, but no one should be asserting their opinion as an absolute truth just yet.

Even with how dark this episode ended, all we've seen is that Kyube's sense of morality is not quite normal, or like a human's sense of morality rather.

Yeeeah, that's a pretty big plot hole. :heh:

Or a pretty big character flaw, depending on your point of view.

It's not necessarily either. We don't know enough to make a claim about either.

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 00:40

Just finished watching this episode. It's left me with mixed feelings. Seeing the subs certainly changes things considerably from how I felt from the raw and poster comments alone.

There's a certain undeniable cold logic to what Kyubey is saying, imo.

What Kyubey is doing is very creepy, quite disturbing, and almost hair-raising.

But during Kyubey's spiel where he talked about how humans react to this aspect of the magical girl profession, do you know who he made me think a lot of?

He made me think of this guy:

http://blogs.southflorida.com/citylink_dansweeney/Spock.jpg

Kyubey: All you reactionary humans are the same, with your silly sentimental attachments to normal human bodies, and your tendency to be ruled by emotions. Why can't you just keep focus on the issue at hand, which is fighting the witches and collecting grief seeds? Why can't you just be ruled by pure logic, as I am? Does it matter if your soul is in your body, or in a jewel? By separating the soul from the body, I make your body stronger, and easier to revive from heavy damage. Is this not objectively for the better?

Just like with Mr. Spock, there is a certain cold inescapable logic to Kyubey's words. And just like Bones McCoy was utterly unnerved by Spock at times, we are unnerved by Kyubey.

Now, do I think that Spock would approve of what Kyubey is doing? Maybe not, but I think that Spock would have to concede that there is some logic to what Kyubey is doing.

I'm starting to think that Kyubey, like a Vulcan from Star Trek, has simply put aside his emotions to be governed by cold, hard logic as much as possible. Does that make him right? No, not necessarily. But it does continue to make me feel cautious about calling him "evil".

Is what he doing unethical? Yes.

But there is a harsh pragmatism to it.

And the further we get into this anime, the less likely it seems to me that Kyubey has a truly villainous ulterior motive. His means are very questionable, but his ends seem abundantly clear. The fact that he was prodding Sayaka this episode to go out there and get more witches (i.e. grief seeds) suggests to me that he really does want to have witches hunted down. Now, why he wants that, I don't know. But it's hard for me to imagine Kyubey having some evil genius master scheme in mind. I doubt that he's emotional enough to be a power-hungry villain or a sadistic fiend.

So if people want to call Kyubey evil on the sheer basis of what he's doing, then that's fine. I can perfectly understand that. But I think it's important here to recognize that even if his acts are evil, he doesn't appear to be driven by a dark, evil purpose. He doesn't appear to be power-hungry, or sadistic. So, if you think that he's evil, at least recognize that he's not evil in the way that these characters are:

http://kawaiikakkoiisugoi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Gihren_Zabi_28Gundam29.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uj_QeQVH3-g/S0eTNxeg74I/AAAAAAAAAH0/YiDn6LICk_Q/s320/Umineko6-beatriceMwuhaha.gif

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQuH8DD1F75eCGy1xj72LjPYwkjStEIP vlr85iRVnZ-Oh6qIVM8xA&t=1

He's not a power-mad despot, he's not a masterfully malevolent menace that enjoys playing extremely sadistic games with people (that would be Kyoko, folks ;) ), he's not an egotistical sociopath with an all-encompassing personal vendetta, and he's not a serial killer who gets laughs from watching people die in "comedic" ways. He's just very cold, and ruthlessly logical, and willing to trample on people's feelings and deceive them in order to get the job done.

Is that enough for a viewer to legitimately dislike him, or even hate him?

Yes, it is. I don't personally, but I can see why people would.

But don't confuse him with classic evil villainy. He really isn't that, imo. I'd honestly be shocked if he turns out to be like any of the villains I've referenced in this post.

I'll have more to say about the episode as a whole in a separate post, as I want to keep this one focused solely on Kyubey.

estdesoda

2011-02-11, 00:41

Some random thought (very random)...

Homura was deomstrated to be a very powerful MG, that could do something that appears to be either teleportaion or time stop, and overpowers Sayaka and Kyoko easily...How come then, Mami was able to tie her up? I would image it to be pretty difficult or near impossible to tie up someone who can either stop or does teleportation (or even just super-high speed...)

Possiblities:

1. It's a plot flaw. Mami has got to die, so Homura was made unable to escape.
2. Mami's ribbon has the ability to seal someone else's superpower. That's part of Mami's magic.
3. Homura intentionally let Mami tied her up and not escape, just so that Madoka can watch Mami die and be scared to death. Wow.

I think the answer is number 1：plot flaw. However, number 3 just rises to me as a possibility that can be neither proved nor disproved...

Xacual

2011-02-11, 00:41

One side revelation I had on the third rewatch... it's obvious that Kyoko - who is supposed to be quite senior - didn't know anything about the Soul Gem proximity issue. Homura on the other hand clearly knew, and acted instantly. So it's safe to assume that Homura is very well-versed in the technicalities of the MG contract.

WHY DIDN'T SHE USE HER KNOWLEDGE TO DISSUADE MADOKA AND SAYAKA?

Does she have the Senjogahara disease? (Very smart and capable, but tremendous deficits on the social dealings side) Or is there something preventing her?

Any plausible explanations welcome, I couldn't come up with any so far...

Honestly it might possibly be that if she is from the future, this isn't just the second time she is reliving this period. It could be the third or fourth or even more than that. It's possible that she is just constantly trying to advert disaster anyway she can and despite anything maybe she did try to interfere more in the past and it never worked so now she's taking advantage of the fact that she knows that stuff like Mami dying and Kyoko showing up and the walpurgis night happening.

Also it would tend to explain her connection to madoka if madoka is constantly one of the last few to survive in every timeline then she and homura have probably had a lot of bonding time.

Key Board

2011-02-11, 00:41

not many anime can be called a deconstruction

A deconstruction would be something like Evangelion, which despite (or perhaps because of) the polarizing response, broke down many of the foundations of the giant robot genre

Mai Hime was an attempted deconstruction of the magical girl genre, if that passes as magical girl

Madoka is a deconstruction done in the similar method as Mai Hime, but it's also taking its own direction and is not afraid of holding back punches

You expect to the story to have a dark element, but not to the extent that it is pulling of and not in a magical girl show. They really are stressing that the only way to win is to not play the game (becoming a magical girl)

If there is another magical show that does this then well, I can't think of any, though Mai Hime comes close.

On another note, mom's advice to Madoka probably has a double meaning.

I think she's sleeping with her boss to gain promotions

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 00:46

I would consider all of those evil. #5 is questionable but then again I expect that we as the viewers will know whether Kyuube enjoys eating or he's actually hungry.

Ah that good because 3 and 4 have their excuses already built into them. So if the excuse of"not his fault" is acceptable, then 3 and 4 would not be evil. 4 shows lying by ommision where you gain from the omission.

5 refers to a point so far no one has mentioned when they scramble to defend kyubei. Who says he needs the grief seeds at that rate to survive?

Certainly in RL many in developed countries could survive on a much lower calorie intake yet people keep upsizing their food or eating much more than they need. This same idea applies.

Kyubei has survived on the rate of seeds collected by Mami. Now he has Sayaka covering Mami as well as Kyoko in the mix. So why does he need Madoka to "survive"? If he does not, then why does he keep suggesting Madoka become a MS?

Key Board

2011-02-11, 00:49

because he's an opportunistic reverse mortgage salesman

and Madoka is a great investment

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 00:51

because he's an opportunistic reverse mortgage salesman

and Madoka is a great investment

And thus the "he's not evil, its for his survival" direction some are taking would fail

estdesoda

2011-02-11, 00:53

So if people want to call Kyubey evil on the sheer basis of what he's doing, then that's fine. I can perfectly understand that. But I think it's important here to recognize that even if his acts are evil, he doesn't appear to be driven by a dark, evil purpose. He doesn't appear to be power-hungry, or sadistic. So, if you think that he's evil, at least recognize that he's not evil in the way that these characters are:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uj_QeQVH3-g/S0eTNxeg74I/AAAAAAAAAH0/YiDn6LICk_Q/s320/Umineko6-beatriceMwuhaha.gif

Hey, wait；Beatrice isn't neccesarry evil, too lol！

But I agree with most of what you have said. Execpt that I have never watched Star Treks and do not know who Spock is. Oh well.

But don't confuse him with classic evil villainy. He really isn't that, imo. I'd honestly be shocked if he turns out to be like any of the villains I've referenced in this post.

He MIGHT be. He might be a classic evil villainy who is just really good at hiding up his own emotion. I do not think the show would show him that way, through, but the possibility still exists.

Makender

2011-02-11, 00:55

Ah that good because 3 and 4 have their excuses already built into them. So if the excuse of"not his fault" is acceptable, then 3 and 4 would not be evil. 4 shows lying by ommision where you gain from the omission.

5 refers to a point so far no one has mentioned when they scramble to defend kyubei. Who says he needs the grief seeds at that rate to survive?

Certainly in RL many in developed countries could survive on a much lower calorie intake yet people keep upsizing their food or eating much more than they need. This same idea applies.

Kyubei has survived on the rate of seeds collected by Mami. Now he has Sayaka covering Mami as well as Kyoko in the mix. So why does he need Madoka to "survive"? If he does not, then why does he keep suggesting Madoka become a MS?

Consider it insurance for tough times?

Used Can

2011-02-11, 00:57

You know, it only made sense. Just as in Faust, you pay your wish with your soul.
I find it funny I didn't see it coming.

As for QB, who knows? I've never thought of him as evil, but it's always been clear he has his own agenda. Of course, whether this agenda involves any real benefit for humanity or not is yet to be revealed.

As for Homura, I think she's a good girl. I have no idea why she's so interested in Madoka, but I believe the theory about her being from the future (or, at least, holding memories from the future) may be true. In fact, I think we get hints to that on every episode. My guess is, assuming the aforementioned theory is true, she developed a bond with Madoka and now she wants to prevent Madoka from living an even harsher life. In addition, she's also shown concern for Mami and Sayaka to some extent - of course, it could be up to debate whether this was done for Madoka's sake, but I do believe Homura does care for them Madoka's sanity notwithstanding. Either way, considering that the apparent price of becoming a Puella Magi is your soul, I'm not surprised that Homura doesn't want Madoka to make a contract.

I wonder if this series ending will follow the original ending of Faust, Goethe's or something original.

Key Board

2011-02-11, 00:57

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 01:01

Consider it insurance for tough times?

Thus its no longer "survival" but "survival with insurance"? So when the insurance is not needed, the extras just becomes part of the enjoyment of eating then.

Then perhaps he will also need insurance on the insurance followed by insurance on the insurance on the insurance and so forth.

Finally he becomes vastly rich in grief seeds with plenty of slave puppets and he's still not evil because its just for him to survive :)

estdesoda

2011-02-11, 01:03

I don't know what he's getting out of this, or if even needs to survive of grief seeds

nobody does.

but one thing is clear, he's a very pushy and opportunistic salesman. He's also amoral has little to no empathy

If you have ever seen Bokurano, he's the Koemushi of this story. And Koemushi was not a nice person

Koemushi was..not a favourable creature at all. However, if I remembered clearly, what Koemushi's action ultimately contributes to is the survival of the parallel universe, which by itself isn't evil.

Now I just really wonder what Kyube's motivation is.

justsomeguy

2011-02-11, 01:05

So why does he need Madoka to "survive"? If he does not, then why does he keep suggesting Madoka become a MS?
Putting the "survive" in quotes is important, because we don't know that he eats them to survive. Either he eats them because he enjoys eating them, or because that's the real way to destroy them.

Decagon

2011-02-11, 01:09

I think QB's calculating side came out when he told Sayaka about Madoka's raw potential being enough to defeat Kyoko, or that he went out of his way to get Madoka when Sayaka and Kyoko were going to fight. He didn't seem particularly concerned when Kyoko grabbed him, either. I wonder where his soul is hiding?

Makender

2011-02-11, 01:09

Thus its no longer "survival" but "survival with insurance"? So when the insurance is not needed, the extras just becomes part of the enjoyment of eating then.

Then perhaps he will also need insurance on the insurance followed by insurance on the insurance on the insurance and so forth.

Finally he becomes vastly rich in grief seeds with plenty of slave puppets and he's still not evil because its just for him to survive :)

Hey, perfectly good people take out insurance to ensure their continued way of life. I see it like this Kyuube can go with a sustenance lifestyle, lose his MG (with a high probability of it happening), and then be screwed if he can't replace her quickly. If anything his contracting of multiple MGs is economically rationally as he is risk adverse, there is high probability of the bad outcome happening, and thus he needs to highly insure.

I'm thinking about this from an economics rational, so forgive me if this may sound a little vague or out there. I tend to think about things in this way.

Kazu-kun

2011-02-11, 01:13

FlareKnight

2011-02-11, 01:13

Consider it insurance for tough times?But there will never be tough times. How hard is it really to find a girl on the verge of death and promise to save them? Long as there are people in the world there will be those for Kyubey to make a contract with. There is something more to why he is constantly going after Madoka. I can't believe that he's said everything that he knows. If the idea that the bodies are powered by magic and so by existing the soul gems get contaminated is right, then he could be doing it for motivation. There is certainly some cold logic to this, but is that the only reason why Kyubey does it like that?

Anyways this was just as shocking a development as any. I hadn't even thought that the gems worked like that. I mean damn ripping souls out of bodies and putting them in the gems!? He may use logic in it, but did he ever say that's what would happen? Did anyone ever ask him to rip their souls right out? I wanted to toss that little monster off that bridge and wait for the splat on one of those cars.

Still now I'm not sure where things are going to go. I mean kind of hard to see Sayaka and Kyoko just going at it after finding this out. Of course their heads getting messed up like this isn't good for fighting in general. Plus now have what Homura mentioned earlier in the episode which sounds like a pretty massive event. And of course you wonder how on earth Madoka is ever going to make a contract now that she knows the truth. There seems to be 10,000 things getting in the way of her doing it.

Not saying the time travel thing is completely certain, but seems more hints at it. I mean Homura knows when a big and bad event is going to happen. She knew exactly what was going to happen when Madoka threw that gem and immediately chased it down.

estdesoda

2011-02-11, 01:13

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 01:14

Putting the "survive" in quotes is important, because we don't know that he eats them to survive. Either he eats them because he enjoys eating them, or because that's the real way to destroy them.

Oh it doesn't matter if its because of survival or what not. I'm point out the obvious flaw in the "he's not evil, he just needs to survive" idea some are advocating :)

pikachuwei

2011-02-11, 01:14

hmm the walpurgis night shouldnt be TOO threatening, the way kyoko mentioned it sounded as if in the past multiple MGs have been able ot take down opponents of that level, and possibly even solo (she only recommended they team up as it would be "easier" to win, not that its impossible to solo)

and anyone ever thought that Kyubey may actually be collecting grief seeds to power up and turn into uber awesome last boss? :heh:

Makender

2011-02-11, 01:18

and anyone ever thought that Kyubey may actually be collecting grief seeds to power up and turn into uber awesome last boss? :heh:

Anyone ever thought that QB may actually be collecting grief seeds to power up and turn into uber awesome savior of the universe?

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 01:19

As for the episode itself...

It does a very good job of building and utilizing dramatic tension, and of providing enough amusing breaks in the action so the overall dark atmosphere doesn't overwhelm the viewer too much. In this episode, the amusing break in the action was Kyoko playing DDR. :heh:

The dialogue in this episode was very good, with many excellent verbal exchanges, and the personalities of all the characters came across very strongly and effectively. It was good to see Madoka's mother again.

The artwork and animation looked pretty good to me as well. Not too many "Shaft being Shaft" moments.

My one major disappointment, and this is the action fan in me talking, was the lack of any impressive magical girl vs. magical girl fight (a la Fate vs. Nanoha, or Vita vs. Nanoha) when that was really teased at. While this episode did admittedly function Ok with out, part of me feels like a guy that was teased by a seductive woman who just gets up and leaves after getting you all aroused. :heh:

All-told, I'll give this 8/10. Looking forward to the next episode.

It's not necessarily either. We don't know enough to make a claim about either.

I don't really see how it could be neither. Homura knew about this catch to being a magical girl, and she chose not to reveal it to Madoka, when clearly it would have freaked Madoka out entirely to hear about it. That could have helped quite a bit in dissuading Madoka from choosing to be a magical girl.

So either this is a plot hole that the writing staff simply didn't notice, or Homura was failing to take advantage of one of the best cards in her hand.

Keep in mind that I'm not questioning her morality as much as I am her competence. This is like trying to talk your friend out of buying a lemon, and failing to mention that the engine of the car could go at any time and has been repaired a dozen times over.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 01:20

Hey, perfectly good people take out insurance to ensure their continued way of life. I see it like this Kyuube can go with a sustenance lifestyle, lose his MG (with a high probability of it happening), and then be screwed if he can't replace her quickly. If anything his contracting of multiple MGs is economically rationally as he is risk adverse, there is high probability of the bad outcome happening, and thus he needs to highly insure.

I'm thinking about this from an economics rational, so forgive me if this may sound a little vague or out there. I tend to think about things in this way.

Ah but you're forgetting what is the cost of said insurance aka another young girl who's pretty much certain to die without any corpse and if they lose their soul gem (maybe at the bottom of the ocean), probably get stuck forever.

Since this is a moral question, we would need to post the cost of insurance in morally suspect ways rather than money.

Lets say that your insurance requires 1 heart carved out from a still living person. How many policies do you need? How many do you want?

Kismet-chan

2011-02-11, 01:22

Xacual

2011-02-11, 01:25

I don't really see how it could be neither. Homura knew about this catch to being a magical girl, and she chose not to reveal it to Madoka, when clearly it would have freaked Madoka out entirely to hear about it. That could have helped quite a bit in dissuading Madoka from choosing to be a magical girl.

So either this is a plot hole that the writing staff simply didn't notice, or Homura was failing to take advantage of one of the best cards in her hand.

Keep in mind that I'm not questioning her morality as much as I am her competence. This is like trying to talk your friend out of buying a lemon, and failing to mention that the engine of the car could go at any time and has been repaired a dozen times over.

I maintain that if this isn't the first time Homura has lived through these events then it's probably not only the second time either. She's probably lived through them many, many times to avert disaster and consistently failed. Maybe she did tell Madoka about the soul gems and maybe even everything she knew. Maybe it led to something really bad happening to Madoka. From everything we've seen Homura is extremely competent so if she has all this information there has to be a good reason why she wouldn't share it.

Leo_Otaku

2011-02-11, 01:27

He never says he eats them or that he needs them to live. He puts them in his back, somewhere they are "safe" from being reborn.

Aww come on it is freaking Hell mouth on his back 0_o or like Guu's stomach >.> some weird place. This freaked me out second mostly.

and anyone ever thought that Kyubey may actually be collecting grief seeds to power up and turn into uber awesome last boss? :heh: Hell yes I swear he has another form and is using them to get there >.>

The later half my mouth was just open XD Really enjoying the unpredictable moments of the show! I can not wait for the fights to begin as well!

Makender

2011-02-11, 01:28

Ah but you're forgetting what is the cost of said insurance aka another young girl who's pretty much certain to die without any corpse and if they lose their soul gem (maybe at the bottom of the ocean), probably get stuck forever.

Since this is a moral question, we would need to post the cost of insurance in morally suspect ways rather than money.

Lets say that your insurance requires 1 heart carved out from a still living person. How many policies do you need? How many do you want?

Applying a cost-benefit analysis, one would weigh the cost of carving said heart out of person (ie. moral pain, getting your shirt all bloody) versus the benefit of the insurance. If benefits outweigh costs, it is perfectly rational to do so. And you would keep carving out hearts until benefits=costs or costs begin to outweigh benefits.

I don't even like this theory, but it is oh so much fun to defend it. :D

drsypher

2011-02-11, 01:29

So, about the end of the episode... Sayaka didn't lose her memories did she? She sounded and looked so disconnected and disoriented once her soul [gem] was reunited with her body, I can't help but wonder this now. Her reaction to blacking out for a few moments wasn't exactly normal. :heh:

I thought it was normal. To her, it probably seemed like she just kinda passed out and when she woke up, Madoka was crying next to her and Kyoko was shaking around Kyubee. It's no wonder that she'd be confused and I'm sure the experience itself was probably a bit disorientating at the least.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 01:29

Applying a cost-benefit analysis, one would weigh the cost of carving said heart out of person (ie. moral pain, getting your shirt all bloody) versus the benefit of the insurance. If benefits outweigh costs, it is perfectly rational to do so. And you would keep carving out hearts until benefits=costs or costs begin to outweigh benefits.

I don't even like this theory, but it is oh so much fun to defend it. :D

Ah but is it evil? :)

Kaijo

2011-02-11, 01:33

Keep in mind that I'm not questioning her morality as much as I am her competence. This is like trying to talk your friend out of buying a lemon, and failing to mention that the engine of the car could go at any time and has been repaired a dozen times over.

Your point about Kyube being Spock really hit home. I suppose that's why I don't see him as evil, because I myself am a very coldly logical person, not as swayed by emotion as some might be. So I find his pragmatic attitude to be entirely believable and justifiable.

Anyway, your point about Homura is my main beef, too. She came out looking stupid, unless....

...unless she has a very specific goal in mind and this is part of it. If the past cannot be changed, and Homura knows this, then she is merely acting out how she was informed things would go. Her goal isn't to stop Madoka from being an MG, merely to delay it as long as possible. Somewhere near the end, Madoka is going to make a wish to send Homura back in time, where Homura will repeat this.

Or, she has some other reason. Given that Kyube holds onto grief seeds that could become too dangerous, one could wonder what Homura plans to do with hers. Would she really give it Kyube? Or use it for another purpose?

Anyway, just speculation. Primarily, she does come across as dumb, though. I mean, if she really cared about stopping Madoka from being an MG, there were already things she could have done prior to this (such as vow to work with Sayaka to protect the town). Her actions and her stated goal aren't matching up well.

And given that Homura is supposed to have emotions, while Kyube doesn't, it makes her decision to withhold this information extremely suspect. Kyube's motive is clear: girls tend to freak out when they learn, and that hurts the soldier recruitment. And in reality, the information doesn't really change things.

But if Homura's goal is really to stop Madoka and other girls from becoming MG's, and she holds this back, it throws her entire motive into doubt. Or it's really poor writing, heh.

Reckoner

2011-02-11, 01:34

I don't really see how it could be neither. Homura knew about this catch to being a magical girl, and she chose not to reveal it to Madoka, when clearly it would have freaked Madoka out entirely to hear about it. That could have helped quite a bit in dissuading Madoka from choosing to be a magical girl.

So either this is a plot hole that the writing staff simply didn't notice, or Homura was failing to take advantage of one of the best cards in her hand.

Keep in mind that I'm not questioning her morality as much as I am her competence. This is like trying to talk your friend out of buying a lemon, and failing to mention that the engine of the car could go at any time and has been repaired a dozen times over.

Homura keeps expressing how bad the life of a mahou shoujo is, and Madoka got to see first hand how bad it was with Mami's death. This is just icing on the cake.

At the very least I don't see how this can be a plot hole. Perhaps you can attribute this to her character's incompetence... But do we know enough? For one thing, why has she tried to keep her away from the magical world? Wouldn't telling her more just get her more involved?

Makender

2011-02-11, 01:34

Ah but is it evil? :)

I'd say it would be evil if QB's purchase of said insurance unduly harms a MG without adequate compensation. A granting of one wish, magical power, and nigh immortality is certainly due compensation. I shan't lose this argument!

Archon_Wing

2011-02-11, 01:37

OMG OMG I'm strangling that little motherfucker. :p It may be his purpose. It may be his nature. But hey, I could say that about mosquitos and I still hate them.

Anyhow, to me this was a make or break episode and I do think we have a winner. As Homura noted, Madoka was being really stupid and reckless for tagging along and being a liability. The reveal was creepier than i had anticipated and it was by pure chance that it was found out. I love how Kyubbey says it so matter of fact.

"Yea, you become a useless shell without the gem. Oh, btw children are delicous."

Homura scored quite a few points with me this episode. Turns out she's not just some cold bitch that has some obsession with Madoka. The scene where she goes off to save Sayaka gave me a fuzzy warm feeling, unlike the actual episode. :heh:

Creepy as hell. I think I'll give this episode a 6.

Just kidding. I give it a 10.

garbage

2011-02-11, 01:46

wow great episode all i can say, about QB being evil is inconclusive at the moment for me, but he is definitely not looking good and has very questionable way of doing things. For me withholding key information is not good at all especially since it literally a matter of life and death contract.

But during Kyubey's spiel where he talked about how humans react to this aspect of the magical girl profession, do you know who he made me think a lot of?

He made me think of this guy:

http://blogs.southflorida.com/citylink_dansweeney/Spock.jpg

.

i don't know if you have watched the whole TV episodes or even most of them or even read the books. I have, I'm a trekkie and they are definitely not the same.
QB withheld information. knowing full well that those information will have a great impact on the person's decision
SPOCK is super logical but it is shown again and again that he is a believer of justice and "humane" (whatever you might call it) he will not withhold vital information. in fact the reverse would happen he would probably bore you to death with so many details. because he is also a believer in sharing information.
his ultimate course of action would be to FIND ANOTHER WAY with his friend capt. kirk and the rest of the crew, that would be beneficial without resorting to such tactics. that is one of the MAIN THEMES of Star Trek. " to go where no man has gone before" and the never say die attitude of kirk, spock and the rest

Guardian Enzo

2011-02-11, 01:46

"It (being a Vulcan) means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.";

Mr. Spock, "Journey to Babel", Stardate 3842.4, Episode 44

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 01:53

I'd say it would be evil if QB's purchase of said insurance unduly harms a MG without adequate compensation. A granting of one wish, magical power, and nigh immortality is certainly due compensation. I shan't lose this argument!

To keep in context, it is necessary to keep in mind that we are talking about the basic needs for survival vs the desire for multiple insurance.

If carving out a still beating human heart was easy, it would be rational to get hundreds or thousands of such "insurance" policies correct? Especially if each earns you income in a form you desire.

Let us factor in compensation. In return for your still beating heart, i send a lackey to wait around until you're seriously injured (or maybe engineer the injury), i then tell you that i can call the paramedics and keep you alive with an artificial heart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart but only if you give me your real heart. In addition i give you a hundred million US dollars.

However i'm not going to tell you that there's a risk of infection and other complications and you dying because i don't care if you die and you might get turned off the idea.

So are my actions evil?

creb

2011-02-11, 01:56

Walpurgis Night looks to be a big witch invasion then? Kyoko knew what Homura was talking about it seemed, so is it safe to assume she's experienced one previously (Kyoko)? I wonder if this particular Walpurgis Night is what the first episode was alluding to, which would possibly make Homura's declaration of basically not caring what happens after it to make sense.

People will defend Kyuube because this is the internet and there's never a shortage of people who will take the contrarian view. That's fine. It's the internet after all. You'll find moderately reasonable people in the real world turn into raving defenders of anything your imagination can spew up on the internet. I only hope, for their sake, they're not that naive in real life.

Homura shows more and more hints at coming from an alternate future timeline or something similar. Kyuube seems to have possibly figured out something important about Homura based on his comment about her. I'm sure, if he has, he'll use it to his advantage. I think most of us know that Homura can't possibly keep saving the day. This is Urobuchi Gen after all. Her eventual fall will be painful, I'm sure. She's definitely my favorite character, and I'm sure I'll be crying (internally of course ;p ) when she eventually meets her doom.

Btw, Homura spelled out she's willing to whatever it takes to keep Madoka from contracting. I suspect that even means killing, if necessary. I'm a tad bummed we didn't get to see her in "serious mode", as she put it, against Kyoko.

As for why she doesn't just explain everything? Who knows. It'd make for a bland story though, so if that's reason enough, keep staying mysterious Homura! I think it's important some of you realize this is, after all, a story. Not real life. Get a grip. ;p It's very difficult to make an interesting story that makes 100% sense.

I have to say, it's refreshing having a character like Kyuube. It's rare to get someone as manipulative as he is in anime. Usually you get someone like Light from Death Note, or Lelouch from Code Geass, who's ideas of manipulative fit a six year old's. Kyuube puts those children all to shame. Even if he's an evil little bag of...well, evil, I have to say I find him oddly lovable for it. Who doesn't like the evil baddie in fictional stories after all? ;p Even if, at the same time, one wishes awful things to befall it. There seems to be a real disconnect, however, in the audience in regards to Kyuube's motives. I've certainly seen zero evidence that he cares one lick at all about saving humanity from witches. To each their own, I suppose.

Btw, one has to wonder what his mouth on his back actually opens up to. Obviously, he can't possibly have every grief gem he's eaten stored in his stomach after-all. So, where does that little evil gaping portal go to? :p

Right now, the big question is why he's so itching to get Madoka turned into a magical girl. I suppose he could be bugging plenty of other girls off-camera, but I'm pretty sure everything he's doing is focused on this one goal for some reason. Sayaka is just a means to an end there.

Madoka continues to annoy, especially since she apparently has yet to tell Sayaka that Mami..you know...chained up Homura before arrogantly fighting that witch alone (hey, I liked Mami, but let's not call a goat anything other than it is ok), despite Homura's warnings. So, as angry as I am at Sayaka for being a hot-headed fool who blames Homura for Mami's death, I'm even angrier at Madoka for allowing this pretty important point to remain unclarified. For someone desperate to get Homura and Sayaka on the same page, she's not helping matters by not clearing this huge issue up.

Madoka's mother, on the other hand, is possibly the best mother in anime history. If I ever had children, I could only hope to be as straightforward with mine as she is with Madoka.

I don't know where we're going from here. Kyoko has food for thought. Her confidence in the system she had all figured out, especially in her amusement at Sayako's naivety, has been shaken. What will she do about it now that it's apparent she's been naive to some things as well. She has to be asking herself, if she didn't know about this rather important aspect of the job, what else doesn't she know? And, if Kyoko wasn't completely stupefied by shock, I'm sure she's going to start seriously wondering just who is Homura, and how does she know so much. Unlike Sayako, Kyoko seems to be moderately intelligent and fully capable of "befriending the enemy" so to speak. ie: It seems likely Kyoko will make some attempts at not actually fighting Homura, despite her almost doing so this episode, at least not until she gets some answers.

Sayako is just a naive idiot, who's continual survival leaves me wondering if she might not be death material after-all. At least not for the immediate future. Certainly, the real flag for her impending death, will be some sort of conflict surrounding her wish, which we haven't seen yet. Between Mami, and now Kyoko, saying wishes for other people turn out horribly wrong, it seems a sure bet we're going to have to witness exactly how bad they can turn out before Sayako can become fish food (for real, since apparently all magical girls already are fish food). ;p Btw, does Kyoko's comment about Mami must have warned Sayaka hint that Kyoko knew Mami personally?

Ah, the eternally optimistic who didn't know Gen was behind the script in this show. Those of you still around that is. ;p Your hearts must be all aflutter with news that the body is just a husk and that the soul gem is all that matters. Are you going to bed dreaming that Mami will come back to life? Heh. I don't really know how to take this info in regards to Mami. As far as I know, we saw no direct evidence that her soul gem was destroyed. But, this being Gen, if Mami returns at some point, I sincerely doubt it is as her previously charming magical girl self.

Which continues to touch on the biggest question unanswered. What happens when a magical girl's gem fades? I'm sure we'll find out before this all ends.

In the last few years, decent anime has been hard to find. Just when you start loosing all hope in an industry that pumps out harem and panty shows galore, you get something like this that reminds me why I started watching anime in the first place. Here's hoping for another great episode next week. :)

technomo12

2011-02-11, 01:59

Fu** it i soo effing hate you even more now kyubey!! Damn you argh!! Episode 6 was an effing wakeup call

Makender

2011-02-11, 02:03

To keep in context, it is necessary to keep in mind that we are talking about the basic needs for survival vs the desire for multiple insurance.

If carving out a still beating human heart was easy, it would be rational to get hundreds or thousands of such "insurance" policies correct? Especially if each earns you income in a form you desire.

Let us factor in compensation. In return for your still beating heart, i send a lackey to wait around until you're seriously injured (or maybe engineer the injury), i then tell you that i can call the paramedics and keep you alive with an artificial heart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart but only if you give me your real heart. In addition i give you a hundred million US dollars.

However i'm not going to tell you that there's a risk of infection and other complications and you dying because i don't care if you die and you might get turned off the idea.

So are my actions evil?

No it is not rational to overinsure from an efficiency standpoint. At some point the costs are greater than the benefits so you only reach the point where they fully insure at cost=benefit.

And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life.

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 02:05

Your point about Kyube being Spock really hit home. I suppose that's why I don't see him as evil, because I myself am a very coldly logical person, not as swayed by emotion as some might be. So I find his pragmatic attitude to be entirely believable and justifiable.

I'm glad that you see the Spock analogy as well.

Anyway, just speculation. Primarily, she does come across as dumb, though. I mean, if she really cared about stopping Madoka from being an MG, there were already things she could have done prior to this (such as vow to work with Sayaka to protect the town). Her actions and her stated goal aren't matching up well.

One thing with Homura is that she's only using fear and good timing to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl (and even then, she never played all of her top 'fear' cards). I mean, why not comfort Madoka and say "Don't worry about Sayaka, I'll look after her. You don't need to concern yourself with Sayaka, and this city certainly doesn't need yet another magical girl, so you just continue being a normal girl"? To a certain extent, Homura's words to Madoka have actually backfired, I think. They've made Madoka even more concerned for Sayaka's welfare than what might otherwise be the case, which makes it more likely for Madoka to choose to be a magical girl in an act of desperation.

So if Homura's chief, main goal is simply to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl, her approach is quite questionable.

Not saying she isn't a very cool character (stylistically, in combat, great timing, etc...), just that there is a disconnect between her stated goals and her actions, yes.

i don't know if you have watched the whole TV episodes or even most of them or even read the books.

I've watched all the TOS episodes (some many times), but I haven't read the books.

I have, I'm a trekkie and they are definitely not the same.

They're not identical, but there is considerable similarities there.

QB withheld information. knowing full well that those information will have a great impact on the person's decision
SPOCK is super logical but it is shown again and again that he is a believer of justice and "humane" (whatever you might call it) he will not withhold vital information.

From a cold, logical perspective, is this vital information? When it comes to choosing to be a magical girl? Does it make a moral difference if one's soul is in their body or in a small jewel that one owns?

Creepy is not the same as evil. Loads of people (in his own universe) find Batman creepy, it doesn't make him evil.

I definitely know that there have been times when Spock has been very circumspect about the information that he chose to share with others. He just doesn't always put it all out there for everybody to hear. Sure, he trusts Kirk, but there's information he might keep from the rest of the crew from time-to-time.

his ultimate course of action would be to FIND ANOTHER WAY with his friend capt. kirk and the rest of the crew, that would be beneficial without resorting to such tactics.

Tactics such as blowing up a dangerous Klingon Bird of Prey or Romulan Warbird, hence killing its entire crew?

Come now, let's not act like Spock is Superman, and is totally unwilling to get his hands dirty at all.

" to go where no man has gone before" and the never say die attitude of kirk, spock and the rest

Agreed. I love that about it myself. It doesn't really relate to what we're talking about though.

"It (being a Vulcan) means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.";

Mr. Spock, "Journey to Babel", Stardate 3842.4, Episode 44

Good quote.

And your point?

garbage

2011-02-11, 02:13

But it is interesting that Homura knew this, too, and didn't say anything. So if Kyube is evil and bad for withholding information, then so is Homura. Personally, I don't think either of them evil, but time could change my opinion.
.

i don't think you can compare the two like that just on the basis of WITHHOLDING INFORMATION. the point is WHY?. QB did because it will lessen the chance of girls signing up. why homura did so is not yet clear

"Sign up for World War II, kids! You'll risk death, losing limbs, and come back with mental issues, but you'll be helping to save the free world from a dire threat!"
...

"Hmm, why is no one signing up? Maybe we need a different campaign, and should probably gloss over the bad stuff, or else we'll lose the war..."

i can take issue on this with you. because for one MANY did sign-up and volunteered during WWII. in fact my ancestors ( mmm great grands are ancestors right? eheh) did KNOWING full well what they're getting into. you're borderline insulting the WWII veterans.
you can't compare QB contract signing with war effort because those people in the real world mostly know what war is all about and what would happen should a bullet ever cross your head or any vital organ for that matter. those that don't, would be so stupid or disabled to be practical on the battlefield and the recruiters themselves would not accept them. they will turn into a liability.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 02:16

No it is not rational to overinsure from an efficiency standpoint. At some point the costs are greater than the benefits so you only reach the point where they fully insure at cost=benefit.

And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life.

Ah good, now we have your stand point though he does have the "Outright malicious intent to harm" indirectly does he not .

So here are some examples that fufil that stand point of omission to benefit themselves and insure their way of life (eg require a lavish lifestyle). Please tell me if they are evil or not.

i) Your girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears leaving a note saying that it was a last minute decision to take your other kidney in case the first transplant failed as she/he was going to continue their hard drinking. Now she/he can drink twice as long before problems occur and she/he thanks you. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you.

ii) You see your retired father and mother lying on the floor bleeding from shotgun wounds a burgler inflicted. You consider that if they died, you would get the house and their savings now and it would not be reduced because of their continued spending on food and paying the bills. You decided to leave them to bleed to death since you did not cause the wound in the first place.

iii) Your 3 year old child is walking towards the stairs and there are marbles scattered over the floor. You think of the insurance policy that you bought for him and the payout is still the same if he dies now or later but if he dies later you have to pay the premium longer. You decide to let him tumble down the stairs since the marbles were not put there by you anyway, you're not responsible.

Reckoner

2011-02-11, 02:20

One thing with Homura is that she's only using fear and good timing to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl (and even then, she never played all of her top 'fear' cards). I mean, why not comfort Madoka and say "Don't worry about Sayaka, I'll look after her. You don't need to concern yourself with a Sayaka, and this city certainly doesn't need yet another magical girl, so you just continue being a normal girl"? To a certain extent, Homura's words to Madoka have actually backfired, I think. They've made Madoka even more concerned for Sayaka's welfare than what might otherwise be the case, which makes it more likely for Madoka to choose to be a magical girl in an act of desperation.

So if Homura's chief, main goal is simply to stop Madoka from becoming a magical girl, her approach is quite questionable.

Not saying she isn't a very cool character (stylistically, in combat, great timing, etc...), just that there is a disconnect between her stated goals and her actions, yes.

Her friend is seen as an obstacle. She even stated this episode that she was going to take care of her herself. She doesn't want to help her because Sayaka so far is just getting Madoka more involved. Homura helping Sayaka just prolongs Madoka's involvement in the issue, which is exactly what she does not want.

Homura telling Madoka everything there is to know about the mahou shoujo world is also just getting her more involved.

Honestly, if it weren't for Sayaka's decision, Madoka wouldn't be pushed so hard to make this decision right now. Homura is trying to reduce the damage as much as she can. As far as she sees it, Sayaka is an inevitable death, much like Mami. Her life is just going to increase the likelihood that Madoka gets involved. She also shouldn't have to be the one who has to look out for someone who is as naive as Sayaka. That's not her job.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 02:26

From a cold, logical perspective, is this vital information? When it comes to choosing to be a magical girl? Does it make a moral difference if one's soul is in their body or in a small jewel that one owns?

Yes because logic dictates that the person offered the contract (aka contractee) may place a different level of importance to a certain contractual point than the one offering the contract (aka contractor). Thus each information must be explained to the contractee as the contractor will not know the contractee well enough to make a decision for him or her

Hence if your goal is to allow a contract acceptable to both sides, all information must be given out.

If you goal is to make the contract acceptable only to the contractor, then information that would prevent the contractee from signing must be hidden.

Shortform: Why do you think you can make decisions for others you barely know in matters of critical lifelong importance.

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 02:26

Her friend is seen as an obstacle. She even stated this episode that she was going to take care of her herself. She doesn't want to help her because Sayaka so far is just getting Madoka more involved. Homura helping Sayaka just prolongs Madoka's involvement in the issue, which is exactly what she does not want.

Homura telling Madoka everything there is to know about the mahou shoujo world is also just getting her more involved.

Honestly, if it weren't for Sayaka's decision, Madoka wouldn't be pushed so hard to make this decision right now. Homura is trying to reduce the damage as much as she can. As far as she sees it, Sayaka is an inevitable death, much like Mami.

So you're saying that Homura really did intend for Sayaka to die?

Then why the heck did she go to such great lengths to save Sayaka at the end of this episode? :eyespin:

I mean, after that stretch of impressive heroics, I just assumed that Homura was frankly BSing Kyoko and had no intention of killing Sayaka at all.

And while telling Madoka all that there is to know about the magical girl world is now only getting her more involved (since her friend Sayaka is in that world), if she had told Madoka and Sayaka this back in Episode 1 or 2 or 3, it might have freaked them out enough that they wouldn't even consider becoming magical girls.

Snip to save space

Shortform: Why do you think you can make decisions for others you barely know in matters of critical lifelong importance.

There's a very famous quote of Spock's that I think applies here:

Spock: "Logic dictates that he needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."

Kirk: "... Or the one" - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

If what Kyubey is doing serves to protect the lives of many, at the disadvantage of the relatively few lives of the magical girls, then what would Spock make of it based on these lines?

Guardian Enzo

2011-02-11, 02:29

Good quote.

And your point?

As Creb said, this is the internet and people will defend any point they wish to defend - and I'll defend their right to defend it. By all means, defend Kyuube. But the Spock thing is really a dead-end - you're just embarrassing yourselves with that one. I'm not a Trekker (globally more of a Doctor Who fan, locally I prefer TNG to The Original Series) but I love science fiction and I think Spock was by far the most interesting thing to come out of that show, so I know the character pretty well. And there are countless examples from multiple TV series - not to mention the movies - that show that he not only would never stoop to Kyuube's tactics no matter how worthy the goal, but that he would be repulsed by them. Not only was the truth Spock's religion, but moral relativism was anathema to him. To link his professed love of logic to an "end justifies the means" argument is a complete reversal of his actual world view - just because he was logical it doesn't mean he didn't believe in right and wrong. And he viewed all situations through that lens - there was a right way and a wrong way to conduct himself at any given moment. That doesn't mean he didn't believe some sacrifices were necessary (more in a minute) but he would never willfully use innocents and throw away their lives in pursuit of some so-called "greater good" because that would contradict the logic of his very existence.

Before anyone pukes up the "Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - or the one" thing, that was again an illustration not of the end justifying the means, but of a logical act in Spock's world view - sacrificing himself for the good of others. Indeed, the theme of self-sacrifice is a common one for Spock - not just in "Wrath of Khan" but also when he embarked on a probably hopeless and possibly fatal mission to Romulus to try and reunify his people and the Romulans in order to achieve peace. And even his behavior in the latest Trek film (which, though wildly entertaining, is far enough in opposition to the spirit of it's predecessors that I don't really consider it canon) involves his self-sacrifice in order to give hope for the future.

The whole argument for Kyuube, for those who choose to make it, rests on the notion that the end justifies the means. Now let's set aside the fact that at this point we have absolutely no proof whatsoever that Kyuube's ends are anything more than self-serving - only his own word, and he's already proven himself untrustworthy at best and an outright liar at worst. If you want to make the argument for Consequentialism, you certainly can - but that's a slippery slope. It's both literally and figuratively a Machiavellian idea, with all that's implied. Consider some of the historical acts that were justified by this argument - the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and both sides of the current "global war on terror" - torture and suicide bombings targeting civilians - and that's just for starters. If that's the path you choose to defend you better be ready to defend it all the way to it's logical conclusion - because it can (and the guy - Machiavelli's Prince - who invented it, did so) be used to justify any action, no matter how heinous.

Makender

2011-02-11, 02:32

Ah good, now we have your stand point though he does have the "Outright malicious intent to harm" indirectly does he not .

So here are some examples that fufil that stand point of omission to benefit themselves and insure their way of life (eg require a lavish lifestyle). Please tell me if they are evil or not.

i) Your girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears leaving a note saying that it was a last minute decision to take your other kidney in case the first transplant failed as she/he was going to continue their hard drinking. Now she/he can drink twice as long before problems occur and she/he thanks you. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you.

ii) You see your retired father and mother lying on the floor bleeding from shotgun wounds a burgler inflicted. You consider that if they died, you would get the house and their savings now and it would not be reduced because of their continued spending on food and paying the bills. You decided to leave them to bleed to death since you did not cause the wound in the first place.

iii) Your 3 year old child is walking towards the stairs and there are marbles scattered over the floor. You think of the insurance policy that you bought for him and the payout is still the same if he dies now or later but if he dies later you have to pay the premium longer. You decide to let him tumble down the stairs since the marbles were not put there by you anyway, you're not responsible.

i) Evil in the sense that they harmed you unduly. In no way were you compensated for TWO kidneys. This isn't even a contract to begin with; it is a gift. This would be a form of overinsurance anyways. A rational person would learn their lesson and not squander the kidneys as it places greater costs upon themselves than the benefit.

ii) Evil for same logic as above. You take without due compensation.

iii) You'd never make this decision in the first place as any rational, forward-thinking person would see they had kids in order to benefit themselves in the long term. Ie the kid will theoretically take care of you in your old age. That benefit outweighs the cost of supporting him in the long run.

All of these are really rather moot anyways. All of the above hypotheticals are not required for survival. I'm arguing here that QB isn't gathering as many MGs in order to live lavishly. He does so because the high probability of destabilization of his life if he didn't do so would threaten his existence. Honestly, I would also allow him a little bit of leeway even for an adequate standard of living. You can survive on poverty wages, but does anyone want to do so? Should they be forced to do so? Seems to me like you're saying he just needs to take what he needs in order to not be evil in this instance when it is not so. He should be allowed comfort as well.

Reckoner

2011-02-11, 02:33

So you're saying that Homura really did intend for Sayaka to die?

Then why the heck did she go to such great lengths to save Sayaka at the end of this episode? :eyespin:

I mean, after that stretch of impressive heroics, I just assumed that Homura was frankly BSing Kyoko and had no intention of killing Sayaka at all.

And while telling Madoka all that there is to know about the magical girl world is now only getting her more involved (since her friend Sayaka is in that world), if she had told Madoka and Sayaka this back in Episode 1 or 2 or 3, it might have freaked them out enough that they wouldn't even consider becoming magical girls.

She saved Sayaka at the end probably cause of either one of these two reasons

She didn't want Madoka to have an excuse to become a Mahou Shoujo. In this case it would be the guilt of having killed her friend.
She has some sort of connection to Madoka. Perhaps they were friends and her love for her as a friend is her sole motivation to see her not get more hurt than she needs to be. If she actually killed her friend just like that. Then that would go against this.

Remember, Homura said she wanted to take care of Sayaka discreetly.

As for the rest of what you said... She hasn't told Madoka all that much since episode 1 except to just not get involved. Remember Homura tried to kill Kyube, if she succeeded, then Madoka would never have even made contact with the magical world. Homura has not told Madoka ANYTHING about the magical girl world that she already didn't know.

In the end, Mami's death was useful to her goal. But she didn't want it to come to that by any means.

Archon_Wing

2011-02-11, 02:49

Anyhow, since my friend and I were kinda Trek fans, I was discussing this with him and he came up with the perfect comparison with QB; sadly for those that don't care/know about trek are gonna be left in the dark again, so I may as well as hide it in spoiler tags.

Isn't QB more like the section 31 guys? They even had a quote: "someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong." <<-- Quote STRONGLY relates to Madoka as a series, but you can substitute men for girls, etc.

Much like QB, they were recruiting and using talented people in order to protect others. They also used the same sleazy guilt tripping tactics to recruit and acting in a very Machiavellian manner-- using tactics the protagonists wouldn't consider.

QB also has more in common with your average Trek villain of the week who tries to accomplish something good and practical but having no sense of morality.

So I can't agree that QB has in common with Spock; in fact QB almost stands for everything Trek is against... Vulcans weren't bound by pure logic-- that's just the result of flanderization as the series went along.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 02:49

i) Evil in the sense that they harmed you unduly. In no way were you compensated for TWO kidneys. This isn't even a contract to begin with; it is a gift.

ii) Evil for same logic as above. You take without due compensation.

Eh, the points here are not about contracts. This is your stand point distilled into a more easily discerned state. Your standpoint was thus "And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life."

In i) you were negligent for not inquiring on the possibility they would take your second kidney.

In ii) you're taking no action other than the basic (taking a look at the situation), corresponding to not explaining or stating relevant points other than the basic (you get a wish, you fight witches)

iii) You'd never make this decision in the first place as any rational, forward-thinking person would see they had kids in order to benefit themselves in the long term. Ie the kid will theoretically take care of you in your old age. That benefit outweighs the cost of supporting him in the long run.

Actually it doesn't. The amount of money spent to raise and educate the child if taken and placed in high interest rate facilities or bonds would give you a certainty that the amount of money would be there. A child could abandon you, place you on a low pirority after wife/kids/etc, die on you, etc.

Hence the logical decision if you wanted a comfortable (in terms of cash) old age, would be to reduce the premium payment to minimum and profit from insurance payouts.

All of these are really rather moot anyways. I'm arguing here that QB isn't gathering as many MGs in order to live lavishly. He does so because the high probability of destabilization of his life if he didn't do so would threaten his existence. Honestly, I would also allow him a little bit of leeway even for an adequate standard of living. You can survive on poverty wages, but does anyone want to do so? Should they be forced to do so? Seems to me like you're saying he just needs to take what he needs in order to not be evil in this instance when it is not so. He should be allowed comfort as well.

Well even if its truly for survival, do we know how long he will last without grief seeds? We know a human can go 30+ days without food, do we know similarly for Kyubei?

As for comfort, even when it is based on the suffering of others? Take for example, there is a Gongxiao village in china that kidnaps children, maims them and forces them to be beggers. Surely they cannot be held accountable as the villagers should be allowed comfort? The kids after all are generously given food and shelter as compensation. removal of the kids would lead to a high probability of destabilization of the villagers' lives as well

totoum

2011-02-11, 02:50

So, do you believe Homura is evil then? Is she a liar as well?

Kaijo,I'm surprised you can't see the difference

There's a BIG difference between saying "Make a contract with me" and once it's done "oh by the way,I just took your soul and put it out of your bodies" and homura saying "DON'T make that contract,it'll mean the end of you" even if she doesn't tell you why.

Though about this system,can your soul gem allow you to switch bodies?If so I find it interesting that prople think nobody would take the deal when in the the anime Kaiba this is pretty much what's going on and I remember people saying "hey,wouldn't it be great if we could do that?"

As for why didn't Homura tell anyone I can see something like thishappening in the near future:

Kyoko: this is horrible,we must tell other MGs or anyone QB contacts about this
QB: silly,I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Kyoko:Why?
QB:Well,I didn't find it very practical to have people going around and dissuading girls from making the contract so I had to take measure
Kyoko:what did you do?
QB:there's a non disclosure agreement in your contract,say this to anyone and you break your contract and your wish will get undone.

FlavorOfLife

2011-02-11, 02:55

If what Kyubey is doing serves to protect the lives of many, at the disadvantage of the relatively few lives of the magical girls, then what would Spock make of it based on these lines?

Well then i assume Spock killed off many red shirts? in pursuit of the goal? Sure he did not kill off only himself right? Because if he did then it would be a decision made by himself for a matter critical to himself.

If he only killed himself, then i am puzzled what that would have to do with "Why do you think you can make decisions for others you barely know in matters of critical lifelong importance."

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 03:04

And there are countless examples from multiple TV series - not to mention the movies - that show that he not only would never stoop to Kyuube's tactics no matter how worthy the goal, but that he would be repulsed by them.

The key moral dilemma in Kyubey's tactics is about keeping important secrets from people that serve to be directly impacted by them, correct?

Well, the Federation served to be directly (and possibly negatively) impacted by Spock's hopeless and possibly fatal mission to Romulus to try and reunify his people and the Romulans. So, did Spock choose to inform the Federation of his plans?

The answer, of course, is no, he didn't. And that ultimately placed Jean-Luc Picard and Data in grave jeopardy, and may have cost them their lives.

In any event, I'm not saying that Spock would morally approve of Kyubey's actions, just that he would likely have to concede that there's logic to it.

If you prefer, we can make a comparison between Kyubey and a generic Vulcan, not Spock. I thought of Spock because he tends to be the first Vulcan you think of when you think of Vulcans.

Edit: I'm also fine with the Section 31 comparison that Archon_Wing brought up. I never really thought of those guys as just outright evil, to be honest with you. I definitely could see why they were doing what they were doing.

She saved Sayaka at the end probably cause of either one of these two reasons

[LIST=1]
She didn't want Madoka to have an excuse to become a Mahou Shoujo. In this case it would be the guilt of having killed her friend.

Madoka would feel guilt simply from Sayaka dying, period, at this juncture.

Remember, Homura said she wanted to take care of Sayaka discreetly.

Discreetly or not, Madoka would likely suspect that Sayaka's demise was tied to her being a magical girl.

As for the rest of what you said... She hasn't told Madoka all that much since episode 1 except to just not get involved.

And that's certainly working out well, isn't it? ;)

As for why didn't Homura tell anyone I can see something like thishappening in the near future:

Kyoko: this is horrible,we must tell other MGs or anyone QB contacts about this
QB: silly,I wouldn't do that if I were you.
Kyoko:Why?
QB:Well,I didn't find it very practical to have people going around and dissuading girls from making the contract so I had to take measure
Kyoko:what did you do?
QB:there's a non disclosure agreement in your contract,say this to anyone and you break your contract and your wish will get undone.

That's honestly the best possible explanation I've heard yet. Well done! :)

Makender

2011-02-11, 03:10

Eh, the points here are not about contracts. This is your stand point distilled into a more easily discerned state. Your standpoint was thus "And I posit that it is the negligence of the MG for not inquiring into all of the necessary, important facets of the deal. Omission doesn't constitute evilness in my book. Outright malicious intent to harm is evil. QB omits to benefit himself to insure survival and his way of life."

In i) you were negligent for not inquiring on the possibility they would take your second kidney.

In ii) you're taking no action other than the basic (taking a look at the situation), corresponding to not explaining or stating relevant points other than the basic (you get a wish, you fight witches)

Actually it doesn't. The amount of money spent to raise and educate the child if taken and placed in high interest rate facilities or bonds would give you a certainty that the amount of money would be there. A child could abandon you, place you on a low pirority after wife/kids/etc, die on you, etc.

Hence the logical decision if you wanted a comfortable (in terms of cash) old age, would be to reduce the premium payment to minimum and profit from insurance payouts.

Well even if its truly for survival, do we know how long he will last without grief seeds? We know a human can go 30+ days without food, do we know similarly for Kyubei?

As for comfort, even when it is based on the suffering of others? Take for example, there is a Gongxiao village in china that kidnaps children, maims them and forces them to be beggers. Surely they cannot be held accountable as the villagers should be allowed comfort? The kids after all are generously given food and shelter as compensation. removal of the kids would lead to a high probability of destabilization of the villagers' lives as well

How long he would last without grief seeds would be factored into how much insurance MGs he would need. The longer he can last the less he needs theoretically. But the time it takes him to find a magical girl should be taken into account as well. It appears to be the insurance he has chosen isn't overzealous, but reasonable taking into account his survivability and ability to acquire magical girls. Well, this is conjecture anyways because who knows how many MGs he has locked up in his basement. But from what we've seen, it's not like he's got a boatload of them.

You always seem to forget that the suffering is duly compensated for in some way here. Let me say here that QB will not offer the deal without what he believes to be adequate compensation for the MG's loss. Thus, QB rationally has calculated the number of MGs he needs to maintain his lifestyle and believes that he has compensated them properly.

I am now even failing to see why morals even need play a part in this. Let us consider that he absolutely needs this number of magical girls to survive and insure his survival. Should he be called evil because he wants to survive? Should he be chastised when he offers due compensation? This is a moral grey area just like when a poor mom needs to steal for her kids or, taking from anime, the conflict amongst some of the vampires in Shiki about whether they are truly evil because they need to kill to survive. Morals aside, QB just does what he must and that is hardly evil. ASSUMPTIONS ABOUND

Reckoner

2011-02-11, 03:10

Madoka would feel guilt simply from Sayaka dying, period, at this juncture.

It's quite different to actually kill your friend than to not be able to save your friend because you were too weak.

Discreetly or not, Madoka would likely suspect that Sayaka's demise was tied to her being a magical girl.

But without Sayaka present, she no longer has a tie to the world of the magical girl. The only girl she knows other than her that's at all friendly is Homura who will do anything to prevent Madoka from entering the mahou shoujo world.

And that's certainly working out well, isn't it? ;)

Actually I would say so far her plan has more or less succeeded up to this point seeing as she's managed to prevent her from becoming a Mahou Shoujou. Sayaka is the current obstacle to her cause, and she wanted to deal with her this episode already. Unfortunately Kyube, as he is a manipulative bastard, got in the way of that this episode (And again, she tried to prevent him contacting her in the first place).

That's honestly the best possible explanation I've heard yet. Well done! :)

Except it has been stated that Homura did not make a contract with Kyube. Would not apply.

Tunafishisgood

2011-02-11, 03:14

Just a random thought from info given on this ep.
Clumsy girls will make bad MGs.
"I'm heading off to school~"
"O shi I forgot my-" *drops dead*

Archon_Wing

2011-02-11, 03:16

I have to agree that Homura was a bit poor at communicating with her vague statements but she just had the idea that if she kept Madoka ignorant then shit wouldn't happen.

The thing is that it's not easy to convince people; sometimes experience speaks for itself. And you don't want people learning the hard way. If she argues her point more strongly, then its just her words against QB and it just ends up like an AS discussion on moe. It's painful to bother going into detail when you're explaining concepts that people can't understand.

And of course, her own mental state, after probably being a magi for so long means that it's really hard to try and help someone else. Meaning, she's probably tried harder in the past to convince someone and failed. A few failures tends to make you just not give a shit anymore as you kinda just painfully watch people falling into the trap. (Poor poor Sayaka)

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 03:18

It's quite different to actually kill your friend than to not be able to save your friend because you were too weak.

Either way, guilt would be there, and hence the possibility of Madoka wanting to take up where Sayaka had left off would be there.

But without Sayaka present, she no longer has a tie to the world of the magical girl.

What about wanting to follow in Sayaka's footsteps? To not let her death be in vain?

Actually I would say so far her plan has more or less succeeded up to this point seeing as she's managed to prevent her from becoming a Mahou Shoujou.

Well, she has totally failed to keep Madoka's disinterested in the magical girl world, which increases the risk of Madoka eventually choosing to become a magical girl. A different approach may have achieved outright disinterest on Madoka's part.

Sayaka is the current obstacle to her cause, and she wanted to deal with her this episode already. Unfortunately Kyube, as he is a manipulative bastard, got in the way of that this episode.

So he's a manipulative bastard for not letting Sayaka die? :heh:

Edit: Honestly, I don't want to think that Homura intended to kill Sayaka. That would make Homura villainous in my mind, because it's choosing to take an option that takes an innocent life when other quite viable options that wouldn't cost innocent lives could be tried first.

Part of the reason why I've defended Kyubey somewhat is that we don't know what options he really has. But when it comes to talking Madoka out of becoming a magical girl, I can think of more than a few.

JONJONAUG

2011-02-11, 03:23

Just a random thought from info given on this ep.
Clumsy girls will make bad MGs.
"I'm heading off to school~"
"O shi I forgot my-" *drops dead*

This is probably why it turns into a ring, so it never leaves their person.

night_sentinel

2011-02-11, 03:24

Watch the episode it was awesome as always... especially shedding some light on some plot points and also casting quite a lot of ambiguity.

About Kyubey, this episode just confirmed for me, my long held belief that there is a fine print on that super nice contract which makes me very happy. ^^ Beside this, confirmation that Homura can also teleport on short distances or stop time for an instant is also a nice bonus.

On the other hand, I can't really say that this episode showed that Kyubey is evil and Homura is actually good definitely. Both of their actions throughout the show has been always ambiguous and this episode 6 is not any different.

Kyubey may have not said that your soul will be transported in a gem form in your contract. But, that does not make him evil to my knowledge. It may not be ethical by any means but as he have said in the preview, he did perform his end of the bargain did he not? And it seemed that he can't quite get why the girls would be upset that he changed the location of their soul...and logically really would the location of the soul really matter at all?

On Homura, as much as I like her and yes she is my favorite character, this episode also have painted her in an ambiguous light... like every other episode .... ^^ . Yes, she saved Sayaka twice in this episode if we count - preventing her from rushing blindly to Kyoko and retrieving Sayaka's soul gem. But, we must remember that she also apparently teamed up with Kyoko and her comment about fixing Sayaka's problem discretely rings alarm bells in my mind. And yeah the knowledge about the soul gem which is painting Kyubey black right now is also a big question mark with Homura. Why did Homura never said a word about it? And her vague warning does not count ....

Hmm... need more time to digest this episode... ^^

garbage

2011-02-11, 03:26

From a cold, logical perspective, is this vital information? When it comes to choosing to be a magical girl? Does it make a moral difference if one's soul is in their body or in a small jewel that one owns?

I fail to see what "morals" or " moral difference" would have anything to do if your in fact talking about being coldly logical. a coldly logical person would look at the functioning like : am i still human ? , can i act . eat move sleep do things like a normal human? things like that where does morals come in?

I will give you this though> yes SPOCK might not be bothered where the soul resides as long as for all intents and purposes they are still the same person ( only with more durable bodies) => hence your posit that QB similar to spock because he will look at it logically and not be bothered. agreed somewhat.
but then again this is spock the vulcan. VULCANS who are so engrossed with traditions and ceremonies and stuff (in fact LOGIC is a part of their religion). He MIGHT take exception to a creature removing his soul from his body, it's natural abode, unless there are earth/universe shaterring reasons and there's absolutely no other way ( you can be sure he'll do his best to find one). of course we cant be sure anyone want to ask spock? ^^

Creepy is not the same as evil. Loads of people (in his own universe) find Batman creepy, it doesn't make him evil.

mmm i never said anything about QB being creepy means he is evil , you might be referring to some other poster. in fact my very first line on that post to quote myself "wow great episode all i can say, about QB being evil is inconclusive at the moment for me..." and me saying that he is different from spock is just that, doesn't follow that he is evil :) hope to clear that

I definitely know that there have been times when Spock has been very circumspect about the information that he chose to share with others. He just doesn't always put it all out there for everybody to hear. Sure, he trusts Kirk, but there's information he might keep from the rest of the crew from time-to-time.

he doesn't say ALL information to EVERYONE, ALL the time that's just impossible. but he definitely will tell you all the information you need especially if YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING A DECISION. especially a piece of information as VITAL as this. granted there are times with extenuating circumstances. and yes i do believe telling the girls this piece of information would definitely affect their choice on becoming a MG. Even KYOKO was shocked upon learning it , you still think it wont affect their decision?

Tactics such as blowing up a dangerous Klingon Bird of Prey or Romulan Warbird, hence killing its entire crew?

mmm you have watched the episodes at least right? and you do know they are at WAR. and you do know most often than not the klingons then where the ones attacking first, yes? and then you might have noticed that even then kirk and crew first action would be " hail the klingon warship.." ( to talk things over and possibly avert a battle). yes? a lot of times they were still attacked . so what would you do in there shoes?

Come now, let's not act like Spock is Superman, and is totally unwilling to get his hands dirty at all.

first i never said he is superman, that would be a dishonor and an insult to the char. (MY VIEW:p ) and he definitely will get his hands dirty if there be a need. i think that has been shown enough in the books and the episodes. in fact he will sacrifice himself more often than not instead of letting a subordinate take the fall/risk. and no he would not resort to dubious methods too, i believe as per his character as what that other guy was trying to point out, hence the quote

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
"It (being a Vulcan) means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.";

Mr. Spock, "Journey to Babel", Stardate 3842.4, Episode 44

" to go where no man has gone before" and the never say die attitude of kirk, spock and the rest
Agreed. I love that about it myself. It doesn't really relate to what we're talking about though.

that was meant to be taken with the whole paragraph ^^ it's just my reiteration that spock,kirk and company would try to find the best solution without resorting to such methods and going the "easier / common way"...

anyway enough of spock, just want to point out FOR ME they are worlds apart.

on QB though isn't it strange he only contracts little girls? girls who are not yet matured enough to make good decisions in this situation, never been explained right? guess one more thing looking forward to

P.S. i guess if QB can contract just anyone then it wont be A MAHOU SHOUJO show anymore. ehehe real world reasons ^^

Reckoner

2011-02-11, 03:31

Either way, guilt would be there, and hence the possibility of Madoka wanting to take up where Sayaka had left off would be there.

The guilt would be much much stronger if she actually killed her. Sure she might still be encouraged, but if she simply died, then she has lost two friends to the wretched Mahou Shoujo world, which you would think would act to discourage her.

What about wanting to follow in Sayaka's footsteps? To not let her death be in vain?

The point was that she no longer will have these chance encounters with the mahou shoujo world (Unless a witch randomly sucked her in somewhere again). Perhaps she would have a naive thought like that, but Homura's job of keeping Madoka out of it would be considerably easier at this point.

Well, she has totally failed to keep Madoka's disinterested in the magical girl world, which increases the risk of Madoka eventually choosing to become a magical girl. A different approach may have achieved outright disinterest on Madoka's part.

What could she have done? Telling her about the world works directly against this. The best she could have done is what Archon_Wing was saying, and that is to be less cryptic.

I don't feel there's much more she could have done other than not fail to kill Kyube at the start :heh:.

So he's a manipulative bastard for not letting Sayaka die? :heh:

Haha, sure. But no really, he's a manipulative bastard because he's trying to bring Madoka into the mahou shojo world as much as possible and get her involved despite the fact that the only true way for her to be able to intervene would for her to make a contract, which would be JUST AS PLANNED.

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 03:34

I fail to see what "morals" or " moral difference" would have anything to do if your in fact talking about being coldly logical. a coldly logical person would look at the functioning like : am i still human ? , can i act . eat move sleep do things like a normal human? things like that where does morals come in?

I will give you this though> yes SPOCK might not be bothered where the soul resides as long as for all intents and purposes they are still the same person ( only with more durable bodies) => hence your posit that QB similar to spock because he will look at it logically and not be bothered. agreed somewhat.

Yes, that's my main point. Not that Spock would be unconcerned with the human rights of these girls, but rather that he might very well share QB's view that what Madoka is getting so upset about isn't really worth getting upset about.

mmm i never said anything about QB being creepy means he is evil , you might be referring to some other poster. in fact my very first line on that post to quote myself "wow great episode all i can say, about QB being evil is inconclusive at the moment for me..." and me saying that he is different from spock is just that, doesn't follow that he is evil :) hope to clear that

Yeah, that part wasn't a reply to you. :)

Even KYOKO was shocked upon learning it , you still think it wont affect their decision?

Oh, I think it will affect their decision. I now think that there's a chance that Madoka never becomes a magical girl. At least not through the conventional Kyubey way.

mmm you have watched the episodes at least right? and you do know they are at WAR. and you do know most often than not the klingons then where the ones attacking first, yes? and then you might have noticed that even then kirk and crew first action would be " hail the klingon warship.." ( to talk things over and possibly avert a battle). yes? a lot of times they were still attacked . so what would you do in there shoes?

I wouldn't be a Starfleet Officer if I wasn't prepared to shoot down enemy warships, I'll say that. So I don't fault Spock at all.

on QB though isn't it strange he only contracts little girls? girls who are not yet matured enough to make good decisions in this situation, never been explained right?

You're right that this does look suspicious and/or bad given everything else we know.

Iknowwhatyou

2011-02-11, 04:06

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-02-11, 04:15

o___O even after reading some spoilers for this episode, i say, about the last part, I DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!!!

man, urobuchi is doing an excellent job with these unpredictable turn of events! he never ceases to impress me! *worships*

LOL.

but seriously, i was like "OMF! what's goin' on??! whattahell just happened?! d-did sayaka just die??!! OMG!". dang, the whole thing was just so sudden. one moment sayaka was only talking and then in abrupt, she's falling lifeless already! who could've expected that? and then i just stopped breathing seeing homura ran fast (short-distance teleportation?) for sayaka's SG.

everything that happened this episode is superb!! great job SHAFT! especially gen! XD

anyhow, about QB, i still see him as amoral. he couldn't understand some human emotions, right? so, his actions are acceptable. i say, i still need a lot of much more solid hints that point to him as an evil creature .and then that's the time for me to eat my own words which i am very much wiliing to do XD nuff said.

lastly homura..i dunno anymore what she is really.. T__T but i am a believer that she's on the good side. T__T i love homura. T___T

BEST EPISODE SO FAR!! and i'm already on the verge of my seat for the next events that urobuchi will slap on our faces. XD

MSMM FTW!!!

Makender

2011-02-11, 04:20

the fact that qb allows the girls to touch her and when she held him up in the air he didn't even flinch. He said something about souls being in a different form and bodies being able to repair itself. Also MG's being able to repair themselves and ability to control within a 100m radius does that mean QB is a vessel for something else? So even if Homura or anyone for that case kill QB it won'r matter

When I think about it this seems plausible as during the next episode preview QB's voice changes on the last line. This implies QB has another form that possibly projects her soul into QB. Would certainly explain his mentality about the soul.

applejuice

2011-02-11, 04:36

Only thing I say is...

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~Yami~

2011-02-11, 04:38

this is it!
finally a turning point when all of mahou shoujo realize the true nature of Kyubey!
Kyubey is the evilest in this episode
Ugh... If only Mami's soul gem isn't broken, maybe she could be alive too....

MartianMage

2011-02-11, 04:44

Just watched the episode. Good development. I'm interested what is this plan Homura and Kyoko have come up with but whatever it is it seems that they have something in store for Sayaka. And speaking of Homura... Sayaka really owes Homura big time now.

And seriously Kyubey is really a manipulative bastard. Even Kyoko was in rage when Kyubey revealed all those disturbing things.

Anyway a very good episode. 9/10 from me.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-02-11, 04:50

When I think about it this seems plausible as during the next episode preview QB's voice changes on the last line. This implies QB has another form that possibly projects her soul into QB. Would certainly explain his mentality about the soul.

my thoughts as well. X)

DmonHiro

2011-02-11, 04:54

Here's what I don't get. Kyuubei didn't even flinch when Kyouko grabbed himm but he was running for his life when Homura was chasing him. Does that mean Homura knows and had the ability to kill him?

Vanish

2011-02-11, 05:43

Here's what I don't get. Kyuubei didn't even flinch when Kyouko grabbed himm but he was running for his life when Homura was chasing him. Does that mean Homura knows and had the ability to kill him?

Why would he flinch? Kyouko had no intention of attacking him. Homura in fact attacked him, hence his injuries.

Arkeus

2011-02-11, 05:44

Here's what I don't get. Kyuubei didn't even flinch when Kyouko grabbed himm but he was running for his life when Homura was chasing him. Does that mean Homura knows and had the ability to kill him?

Or humaru just wanted to destroy his current body and knew how to do that. Having already contacted madoka, it's ok now :-(

ahelo

2011-02-11, 05:58

Kyuubey is Hitler in anime. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- I feel sad for those girls.

novalysis

2011-02-11, 05:58

On the brighter side , I wonder why no one has yet parodied this meme , given the revelations of this episode , and the similarities between Puella Magi and Liches.
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/124/c/2/Tenshi___Angel_Beats_by_Helrouis.jpg

For those not in the know , this was a meme entitled the Cutest Protoss Zealot Ever, about a character called Tenshi/Kanadae from Angel Beats. FYI , Protoss were a species in Blizzard's starcraft

Edit : I'm not sure whether this was the original source of the meme , but here goes
http://sonohara.donmai.us/post/show/655039/angel_beats-blade-blazer-blue_hair-school_uniform-

Given that Puella Magi's bears so much similarities to Liches , perhaps we should take a shot of some of the Puella Magi , add Warcraft style Lich or Death Knight Eyes to them , and put it up , entitling it : The Cutest Liches Ever . I would do it, if I had the photoshopping skills for it. Alas , I don't .

Oh , and give Sayaka a Runeblade :)

Anime has already parodied Starcraft. It's only fitting that its' cousin Warcraft should also be parodied:) .

Anyone feel like taking up this challenge? :heh:

Vanish

2011-02-11, 06:00

Or humaru just wanted to destroy his current body and knew how to do that. Having already contacted madoka, it's ok now :-(

How Homura knows about the 100 meter limit is questionable but can be explained with Homura being in the MG business for some time now so she must've experienced many different situations, as indicated by herself in episode 5. How Homura knows how to kill Kyubei is beyond me. I think she just tried, without knowing the specifics. But fact is Kyubei can have injuries, that's imo the (only) clue that led to Homura's attack on Kyubei.

potchip

2011-02-11, 06:13

So by becoming a magic girl it's not about just gaining some new powers and responsibilities - in fact the soul becomes detached from the body. The soul gem is some sort of amplifying device where the soul can be used as a power source but at the same time being corrupted easily.

I don't think KB is evil per se. He's just alien, so is the whole mahou shoujo business. It is like how we like to believe our pets behave as if a human child/baby when it may just be a learnt response to humans, KB simply don't have human emotions/values. Interestingly Sayaka could not turn back once she discovered the mahou shoujo world. She seems unable to pretend the witches never existed (as for normal humans). Is that due to influence by Mami, or her sense of duty in exchange for the miracle?

Unexplained is how does one become an eligible mahou shoujo candidate? Does KB play a role there? Surely there must be other candidates who just suddenly started to see witches, and if they do, how can they ignore it? If not, they KB sets in motion a non-reversible train, every time.

NakkiNyan

2011-02-11, 06:30

I'm not even sure it amplifies anything it just releases the power from the body holding it back. Everything is so open to interpretation that it is just too hard to say for sure.

felix

2011-02-11, 06:35

I'm glad that you see the Spock analogy as well.There's no excuse for taking another's life, period.

I'm cold and logical as well. Logic would say, he killed X, albeit in a very "cute" fashion, hence he is evil. Now the problem is, how do we define evil… unfortunately evil has many definitions and some of them are mutually exclusive. If it makes everyone feel better, there is no such thing as not–evil in this world, but since we all tend to do very small evil deeds we like to call ourselves "good"; denial makes living with ourselves and our peers easier. The so called "evil" only exists at the boundary of our ignorance.

The irony in this debate you're having is that your view is more compatible with the religious view, more so then the cold and calculated one. Yes, technically Kyubei hasn't sinned since he isn't aware of his sins (from what we know) or the gravity of his sins. Because he doesn't consciously hurt others (as you say, he just doesn't know better) his actions can't be labeled as sins; just as a child throwing some animal out the window of a building, in a playful fashion, ignorant to the consequences would not have technically sinned. Though mind you, it is a sin if he becomes conscious of it (ie. regret), even if it happened in the past, so even if he's not evil now, he'll technically be evil later…

potchip

2011-02-11, 06:53

A better analogy would be if a lion mauls a person, is the lion evil?

KB is a magical creature not seemingly bound by human morals. He's forming contracts, why though is not revealed yet, and it's not necessarily to protect humans - afterall he could've chosen mahou shoujo's more carefully by personality but obviously he doesn't care.

applejuice

2011-02-11, 06:56

Blah, I will just stop speculating entirely about this series from now on, since I'm seriously doubting that Urobuchi is much more psychologically distorted than what I eventually thought in 3rd episode, after the last 5 minutes of this episode.

I will just ride his roller-coaster. Which keeps goes down... down... down... down.... down...

...

down until absolute despair. I give up. He wins.

felix

2011-02-11, 07:11

down until absolute despair. I give up. He wins.The secret to beating Urobuchi: come up with a theory that's even more dark and gritty then what he will come up with. ;)

He's forming contracts, why though is not revealed yetI think we got a pretty good hint. Remember what his other purpose was revealed to be this episode? He's like a farmer growing magical girls in the soil (witches). Thing's gotta eat them grief seeds.

kache

2011-02-11, 07:44

on QB though isn't it strange he only contracts little girls? girls who are not yet matured enough to make good decisions in this situation, never been explained right? guess one more thing looking forward to

Connected to this: isn't it strange that we saw only girls/adolescents being MG? Why haven't we seen a mature woman? Is there a limit on how much a MG survives or what? :uhoh:

Vanish

2011-02-11, 07:48

kache

2011-02-11, 07:52

I think we're supposed to accept the fact that "little girls" take over the work of Magical Girls. I mean, it's just the genre. If you question that, might as well question why there aren't Magical Boys, or why not all "little girls" are eligible to pass as MG.

We already have another anime with a Magical Boy this season, and, seeing the results, I guess it was a good idea not to put one here... :heh:

garbage

2011-02-11, 08:20

I think we're supposed to accept the fact that "little girls" take over the work of Magical Girls. I mean, it's just the genre. If you question that, might as well question why there aren't Magical Boys, or why not all "little girls" are eligible to pass as MG.

not at all. for me a writer to just "ask" the readers to accept that as fact without any explanation because its the "genre" is just poor writing. to illustrate, Strike Witches gave as the thesis that witches power goes down as you grow older. Nanoha was actually more of an accident becoming a Magic user at that age. the adults in their universe were even amazed she was powerful at that age, and there were a lot of adult magic users there of BOTH sex. mmm for others CC Sakura was the only one (in their world) and is a special case being the reincarnation of clow, sailor moon et al are also special since they are also reincarnations of their former magical selves. they're not really your random regular girl around the block. and so on...
oops are these spoilers?those are old series right.... mm just to be safe ill spoiler it.

point is QB is making contracts with minors, who most probably is not even matured enough to understand the consequences of their choices. and there aren't any explanations yet why he cant make a contract with someone older and yes if you prefer why not a boy/man

BaKaBaKaOtaKu

2011-02-11, 08:25

Connected to this: isn't it strange that we saw only girls/adolescents being MG? Why haven't we seen a mature woman? Is there a limit on how much a MG survives or what? :uhoh:

since the MGs human body is only like a gigai now, it's plausible that the girls don't age anymore. XD

klare

2011-02-11, 08:35

we get a shocking truth again from this eps, Kyubey is hiding so many info, now i start to not understand him, what does he really want...

only Homura-chan seems to know the whole thing, and her objective should be revealed soon with that night of something coming up

since Magical Girls cannot die even with their body destroyed, can anyone tell is Mami-san still alive somehow?

Vanish

2011-02-11, 08:35

not at all. for me a writer to just "ask" the readers to accept that as fact without any explanation because its the "genre" is just poor writing. to illustrate, Strike Witches gave as the thesis that witches power goes down as you grow older. Nanoha was actually more of an accident becoming a Magic user at that age. the adults in their universe were even amazed she was powerful at that age, and there were a lot of adult magic users there of BOTH sex. mmm for others CC Sakura was the only one (in their world) and is a special case being the reincarnation of clow, sailor moon et al are also special since they are also reincarnations of their former magical selves. they're not really your random regular girl around the block. and so on...
oops are these spoilers?those are old series right.... mm just to be safe ill spoiler it.

point is QB is making contracts with minors, who most probably is not even matured enough to understand the consequences of their choices. and there aren't any explanations yet why he cant make a contract with someone older and yes if you prefer why not a boy/man

Whether it's bad writing or not is up to one's opinion. That we're supposed to accept the fact is my own perception. I see that questioning things like "why only minors?" or "why not boys?" etc. is possible and can make sense. But in this case I think even if we knew why Kyubei only contracts minors it would only mean we can reason the fact. And that is the reason why I predict that the reason won't be covered because it probably won't be of much significance for the actual events and outcomes. Hence it's better not to think about it as in case it won't be covered some people will just consider it being a plothole or the like.

Isn't Homura a good example for being mature enough? And Kyouko surely seems to be well adapted in case she is/was immature and unknowing.

felix

2011-02-11, 09:05

Connected to this: isn't it strange that we saw only girls/adolescents being MG? Why haven't we seen a mature woman? Is there a limit on how much a MG survives or what? :uhoh:Don't you know, you lose your "dreams" as you grow older. It may not be that he can't, but more that older aged women don't have any sort of wish. Now as for why only girls? probably the spell doesn't work on boys. There's a even simpler explanation: the wishes of little girls are just so damn crazy enough that they stand to gain the most power — and we know he's very indifferent to human nature as we know it (age is likely one of the many things he doesn't give a damn about).

Triple_R

2011-02-11, 09:10

There's no excuse for taking another's life, period.

I'm cold and logical as well. Logic would say, he killed X, albeit in a very "cute" fashion, hence he is evil.

Logic doesn't require a person to discount the importance of intent behind an action.

Yes, technically Kyubei hasn't sinned since he isn't aware of his sins (from what we know) or the gravity of his sins. Because he doesn't consciously hurt others (as you say, he just doesn't know better) his actions can't be labeled as sins; just as a child throwing some animal out the window of a building, in a playful fashion, ignorant to the consequences would not have technically sinned.

Very well articulated. Now, you can replace "sinned" with "done evil", and "sins" with "evil deeds", and you'll arrive at a big reason why I'm cautious about calling Kyubey "evil".

Again, even within a very cold and calculated view, intent is (or at least can be) important. If a man sincerely thinks that what he is doing is right, and furthermore can't even conceive of why others would think otherwise (Kyubey seems genuinely perplexed by how humans object to certain aspects of the magical girl role in this universe), then is he evil?

I'm still waiting for some concrete impression that Kyubey is fully cognizant of the unethical nature of some of his actions. Keep in mind that he didn't even argue "the ends justify the means" when Madoka became morally upset with him in this episode. No, instead he implied that he couldn't even understand why she's upset, or why humans get upset about this. It's a complete dismissal, not one where he says "The important thing is the larger picture, Madoka".

Long story short, I get the impression that Kyubey sincerely doesn't think that he's done anything wrong. So while his deeds may be evil from our perspective, from his, there may very well be no evil intent there.

So, while he may be evil, this lack of evil intent makes him less evil, in my view, than someone like Beatrice (Umineko), who knows what she is doing is evil, and clearly delights in it for that reason.

Though mind you, it is a sin if he becomes conscious of it (ie. regret), even if it happened in the past, so even if he's not evil now, he'll technically be evil later…

Depends on if he ever becomes conscious of it.

ninryu

2011-02-11, 09:29

HOLLY SHIT! Best mahou shoujo since Nanoha ever!

It looks more and more like Mentar-san is right. I think Homura might really be from the future. She said something with long name is gonna come, I wonder what she meant.

Holly peanuts! The Mahou Shoujos are actually the Soul Gem! Sayaka almost died there!
Thank goddness there's homura to save the day as always.
Devil Furball was so indifferent. "Madoka, throwing your friend of all things..", he said that as if rebuking a child who drew on the walls. I hate him more with every second passing.
Madoka finally understands Kyuubey is not some kind of all-knowing angel who can help her all the time. Not speaking of how he tries to turn Madoka into Mahou Shoujo all the time in the most deviant ways.

When Kyoko heard the truth she was so pissed off, and she wasn't the only one. I really hoped she would just cut this thing's head off already.

Kyuubey said the even if Mahou Shoujo's body is destroyed she would still survive in the Soul Gem. Does that mean Mami is still alive? We heard her in the preview after all.

Awesome music, awesome effect, awesome animation. Gifs now.

garbage

2011-02-11, 09:33

Whether it's bad writing or not is up to one's opinion. That we're supposed to accept the fact is my own perception.

ok, if for you having unexplained things/situations is acceptable i can respect that. but for me it's bad writing and will only lessen my liking for this show, i don't want that to happen, since i think this is one of the better shows currently showing.

. But in this case I think even if we knew why Kyubei only contracts minors it would only mean we can reason the fact. And that is the reason why I predict that the reason won't be covered because it probably won't be of much significance for the actual events and outcomes. Hence it's better not to think about it as in case it won't be covered some people will just consider it being a plothole or the like.

Sorry, I'm apologizing in advance. I don't want to diss or insult you in any way. but i really can't get what your trying to say here. it's kinda ambiguous. might be due to how the sentences were formed. I hold though that it is significant because it will highlight or further illustrate QB's intent and motivations. And also the workings of the Mahou Shoujo in their universe. And yes I would consider it a plothole if it's not tackled in the following episodes.

Isn't Homura a good example for being mature enough? And Kyouko surely seems to be well adapted in case she is/was immature and unknowing.

well for all intents and purposes Homura seems to be mature enough. definitely the most mature in how she handles situations among the girls. But it's irrelevant. as i've said it's being mature enough during the contract "signing" that is important. how do you know that she was like this from the beginning? she might have matured along the way. The impression she gives is that she has been doing this for a long time already, she has seen a lot of other MS. could be she has matured along the way. As for kyoko, well her actions speak for themselves.
still by their looks they were young when they got the contract, it's just that as one poster said it just might be they don't age anymore being zombies and all.

:) anyway hope everything clears out and we get a great show with a great ending

Vanish

2011-02-11, 09:36

HOLLY SHIT! Best mahou shoujo since Nanoha ever!

It looks more and more like Mentar-san is right. I think Homura might really be from the future. She said something with long name is gonna come, I wonder what she meant.

Holly peanuts! The Mahou Shoujos are actually the Soul Gem! Sayaka almost died there!

Kyuubey said the even if Mahou Shoujo's body is destroyed she would still survive in the Soul Gem. Does that mean Mami is still alive? We heard her in the preview after all.

Awesome music, awesome effect, awesome animation. Gifs now.

Homura mentioned Walpurgisnacht, as in Walpurgis Night. This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night It's pretty self-explanatory I think.

The MGs aren't the soul gems, they're a part of it. Soul gem (soul) + person (body) = Magical Girl.

The voice in the preview was from Kyubei and Hitomi, Madoka's and Sayaka's friend. And I really doubt Mami is still alive. Even if she was, she's trapped in the witch dimension forever, as was indicated by Homura before. And if she will return, it will probably be as a witch in case the MG -> witch theory applies.

gammon029

2011-02-11, 09:37

Just watched ep 6. Wow. Just wow.

From all the little hints that we've been given is it safe to assume Homura is a time traveler and her ability is to stop time in short bursts? Hence the the teleporting we are seeing? Episode 5 had the frozen water and Homura reflected in the frozen drop still moving.

If time travel is possible in this show via a wish...wow so many story possibilities.

Here's a theory. If Homura is a time traveler and the reason for her coming back was to prevent Madoka from making a contract, is future Madoka dead? If a MG loses her body can you recover their soul gem and run like hell to preserve them? Could Homura possibly possess future Madkoa's Soul gem? What happens if she gives present Madoka the soul gem of future Madoka? OMG this episode answers so few questions and creates many more.

Also a lot of people are saying Mami cannot be revived because she kept her gem on her head. I'm looking through past episodes and I cannot find the gem in any of the shots. I know Kyouko and Sayaka have their gems extremely visible but I can't find Mami's

felix

2011-02-11, 09:41

Kyuubey said the even if Mahou Shoujo's body is destroyed she would still survive in the Soul Gem. Does that mean Mami is still alive? We heard her in the preview after all.Wasn't her hole body eaten? meaning the soul gem too. *memory is fuzzy*

Azuma Denton

2011-02-11, 09:43

Wasn't her hole body eaten? meaning the soul gem too. *memory is fuzzy*
No we dont know yet...
Maybe it still exist or maybe it really is eaten...
Anyway next episode will gives more hint about this since eps 6 ends in a cliffhanger...

felix

2011-02-11, 09:43

Could Homura possibly possess future Madkoa's Soul gem? What happens if she gives present Madoka the soul gem of future Madoka?That would explain the opening sequence… :heh:

Dark Wing

2011-02-11, 09:50

Also a lot of people are saying Mami cannot be revived because she kept her gem on her head. I'm looking through past episodes and I cannot find the gem in any of the shots. I know Kyouko and Sayaka have their gems extremely visible but I can't find Mami's

Remember the Soul Gems change shape after the Magical Girl transforms. Kyouko's is around her neck while Sayaka's in on her bellybutton. If you go back to episode one when first transforms and look at the ornament in her hair that she Soul Gem taking on a new form.

HitoriTomoyo

2011-02-11, 09:50

I love how there's still clamorings of "Kyuubey's EVIL!!!1!" when there has been over ten pages of quality debate over where Kyuubey stands on the moral scale.

Personally it's pretty hard to color him purely evil (maybe relatively evil but not wholly) when his morals are simply different from the rest of the Puella Magi; his logic overwhelms his emotions and he's doing what he believes is best to help out the Puella Magi serve their function more effectively.

I really hope they explain the reason as to why Kyuubey consumes/stores the collected Grief Seeds; call it biased, but what use is a collection of stored curses to a Magical Contractor other than the potential to use it for malicious purposes?

I still think Sayaka's a dead character; it's only a matter of time. I'm wondering how Kyoko and Walpurgisnacht will play out, especially if Madoka somehow manages to tag along.

Also, I love how everyone broke down Homura's character after this episode; I've seen instances of people claiming the quality of the writing is inconsistent given that Homura failed to capitalize on one of her largest advantages by sharing all of the negative consequences attached to being a Puella Magi with Madoka, but keep in mind that this is Urobuchi writing here; I'm sure there's a reason for everything that's occured so far.

tl;dr: The last ten pages or so in my own words. Totally looking forward to Walpurgisnacht now.

I'm surprised that there was barely any attention paid to Sayaka's last statement in this episode; no hypotheses claiming that the Soul Gem incident has given Sayaka amnesia?

Also I know I'm over-thinking matters, but IIRC, Homura's eye color is pretty similar, if not the same as Madoka's Mother (got me speculating like an idiot after that brief close-up). That would be pretty interesting though I'm pretty sure its all an uneducated guess anything. :p

Vanish

2011-02-11, 09:54

for me it's bad writing and will only lessen my liking for this show, i don't want that to happen, since i think this is one of the better shows currently showing.
Fair enough. And it depends on what is questioned >for me<. In the case of why only minors or why only girls, the show doesn't need to answer that. As you say, it's one of the better shows so far and >not< solving those questions doesn't make me feel like something's missing. I'd consider it extra service if it was explained though.

Sorry, I'm apologizing in advance. I don't want to diss or insult you in any way. but i really can't get what your trying to say here. it's kinda ambiguous. might be due to how the sentences were formed. I hold though that it is significant because it will highlight or further illustrate QB's intent and motivations. And also the workings of the Mahou Shoujo in their universe. And yes I would consider it a plothole if it's not tackled in the following episodes.

It's fine, I know my English (third language) isn't the best either.:heh: Let's just say in my opinion not everything needs to have an explanation. That is, as long as the events and outcomes wouldn't be severely affected >if< said questions were to be explained.

well for all intents and purposes Homura seems to be mature enough. definitely the most mature in how she handles situations among the girls. But it's irrelevant. as i've said it's mature enough during the contract "signing." how do you know that she was like this from the beginning? she might have matured along the way. The impression she gives is that she has been doing this for a long time already, she has seen a lot of other MS. could be she has matured along the way. As for kyoko, well her actions speak for themselves.
still by their looks they were young when they got the contract, it's just that as one poster said it just might be they don't age anymore being zombies and all.

You got a point. However I personally believe in the time travel theory which would mean Homura already experienced a lot even before she turned into an MG herself.

Dark Wing

2011-02-11, 09:57

I'm surprised that there was barely any attention paid to Sayaka's last statement in this episode; no hypotheses claiming that the Soul Gem incident has given Sayaka amnesia?

Also I know I'm over-thinking matters, but IIRC, Homura's eye color is pretty similar, if not the same as Madoka's Mother (got me speculating like an idiot after that brief close-up). That would be pretty interesting though I'm pretty sure its all an uneducated guess anything. :p

Amnesia? Nah, I'd Sayaka would think it was more of a black out and she just came too.

Genten

2011-02-11, 10:00

Here we go again.

I have to face plam at Madoka here. I mean, what did you think 'Soul Gem' meant? It's pretty much all there in the manual that you're not supposed to throw it and smash it on the highway. It was pure luck that it bounced on a truck and great luck that Homura has the power of a jumper. Despite not knowing what the specifics of the Soul Gem might be, with a name like that you'd think to take good care of it.

Another episode where not much happened. The show seems to be focusing more on world building than advancing the plot forward. I suppose that's okay since we still have six episodes left.

One nitpick I have it, why did the translators decide to go with Walpurgisnachst instead of Walpurgis Night? The latter is much easier to read and understand than the former, which just looks incredibly awkward.

But on to the actual episode. So we get more background on how Soul Gems and Grief Seeds work. Kyubey can cleanse Soul Gems, I believe, by eating the Grief Seeds. However, I can only assume this ability is limited or has a serious catch or Puella Magi would have no reason to hunt witches. It's not too surprising, in hind sight, that Kyubey can do this: there was probably a safety net for magical girls that couldn't collect Grief Seeds. It's interesting that Witches are attracted to very dirty Soul Gems: is it a process in the eventual downfall in the magical girl? Do the Witches become stronger by feeding off the dirtiness of a Soul Gem?

And what dirties a Soul Gem, anyway? Is it the energy the magical girl uses fighting or is does it collect dirtiness by being out in the world of the Puella Magi in the first place? I'm inclined towards the latter, actually, more than the former. Kyubey states that, when someone makes a contract with him, he rips out the soul and crystalizes it in a Soul Gem. A soul itself is usually considered very pure. Ripped out of the host, it is exposed to the dirtiness of the world. This would mean that, by default, Soul Gems become dirty. This would force a magical girl to continously fight witches to cleanse it least she suffer some horrible fate.

The most interesting part of the episode was when Kyoko found out about the truth of a Soul Gem. Obviously, this is one of the many things that contractors do not tell Puella Magi right off the bat. They wait until the girls are literally cornered and cannot escape from this fate before telling them. It isn't something contractors are so willy nilly to give out, it seems, so I wondered if it were possible that magical girls themselves, when battling with each other, could target these gems? I don't know if that would be possible or not as Kyoko, who seemed very eager to get rid of Sayaka, was horrified at the very thought of someone dying by losing their Soul Gem. It is terrfying, in a sense. Maybe I should make a post on what makes Magical Madoka so scary. . .

And thus begins Sayaka's trials as a character in this show. I'm inclined to believe that Homura's VA was right and that we'll see some serious obstacles come Sayaka's way although there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm wondering if fanart of her will explode after this XD