Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Vanish]

Madoka's lines in the preview doesn't sound like criticism at all to me with the subs I have. Can you post the lines from the subs you have. Maybe is a different translation.

gg
Madoka:
Didn't you feel anything while protecting those girls?
Didn't you try to understand how hard it must've been for them?

Homura:
The only remaining way.

I'm unsure now, does that actually make sense?

[Klashikari]

These lines look like Madoka was actually speaking to Kyuubey, not Homura (which would imply that Homura got screwed in some way).
Of course, the "while protecting them" is the issue, but I would rather wait, in order to compare several translations just in case (mistakes do happen, for instance: "戦場" translated into "History").

Also, it may be another stuff regarding kyuubey, like he had to "protect" girls at some point, not particularly one of Madoka's group though.

[lightbringer]

Before, I considered Madoka Magica to be a very good anime.
With this episode, I will call it nothing less than legendary.

The visuals don't really appeal to me, but the story is nothing short of awesome. Too bad this is ending so soon.

This episode was 11/10 on the fabulous scale.

[Kanon]

Was anyone else a little surprised that Homura never ever used her bow? It doesn't even seem like she's got one. Was the sole purpose of the promotional picture to troll us into thinking she was Archer?

That aside, I do find it extremely odd that she doesn't have a weapon. Her time magic is related to her wish, it's the same as Sayaka's healing factor or Mami's strings. She should be able to create weapons using magic like the others do (hell, Mami can creates billions of them).

These lines look like Madoka was actually speaking to Kyuubey, not Homura (which would imply that Homura got screwed in some way).
I would rather wait, in order to compare several translations just in case (mistakes do happen, for instance: "戦場" translated into "History").

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Madoka is speaking to Kyubey in the preview. Rather than "protect", I think she says "watch over", which doesn't exactly carry the same meaning and fits Kyubey's actions better (he sure as hell wasn't protecting them).

[taofd]

gg
Madoka:
Didn't you feel anything while protecting those girls?
Didn't you try to understand how hard it must've been for them?

Homura:
The only remaining way.

I'm unsure now, does that actually make sense?

I found the gg subs a little bit inaccurate. But for the most part, I think those lines are to be taken at face value. Unless there's something special that Madoka meant with those lines, we are to assume they're directed at QB (fail, I meant QB, not Homura :/).

QB has implied back in episode 9 that a natural magical girl progression exists. He found magical girls, not created them. Go back and watch around 7:15.

"Soushite mitsuketano wa.... etc"

That's when we found it, a magical girl's magic.

Also, in episode 10 QB says, "I feel that possibility exists with you" when Homura asks "I can make any wish with you?" I don't, sounds like a pretty big implication that QB's using the magical girl's own magic to cast the spell...

"Sou domo, kimi ni wa sonoshikaku(?) ga arisou da..."

I think by shikaku they're referring to a rectangle or metaphorical boundaries of capabilities? I'm not a native speaker (or even fluent for that matter), so someone help me out here. It felt like a really round about way for QB to say "yes" so it definitely caught my attention...

[Klashikari]

Was anyone else a little surprised that Homura never ever used her bow? It doesn't even seem like she's got one. Was the sole purpose of the promotional picture to troll us into thinking she was Archer?

That aside, I do find it extremely odd that she doesn't have a weapon. Her time magic is related to her wish, it's the same as Sayaka's healing factor or Mami's strings. She should be able to create weapons using magic like the others do (hell, Mami can creates billions of them).
Since her vow is to protect (instead of slaying anything), perhaps her "real" weapon is actually the shield, since it is the only thing that stands out aside of her attire, which actually fits Homura prior her conviction kicking full drive.
Not only it bestows her the power to time freeze, but it is also a dimensional pocket as well, which doesn't seem to be something other girls have.

But as far as it goes, we should keep in mind that Aoki may not know the full picture of the story, so it is possible that she didn't know that the bow wasn't meant to be Homura's, and still included it in the promotional illustrations. That or the idea was scrapped midway, as it is possible Urobuchi and/or Shinbo changed their mind at some point.
This point is understandable, because there isn't any weapon left (we got swords and guns, and if the bow is taken, there isn't really many classic weapons that would match Madoka), so they probably put the bow on Madoka, so Homura has something more... "exotic".

[Witch of Uncertainty]

That aside, I do find it extremely odd that she doesn't have a weapon. Her time magic is related to her wish, it's the same as Sayaka's healing factor or Mami's strings. She should be able to create weapons using magic like the others do (hell, Mami can creates billions of them).


I think that either:
1. Her main power is the Time freeze. Her secondary is the travel back in time.
2. Her main power is Time Freeze+Time travel, and her secondary power is being able to store a weapon of choice which will be buffed (See the purple aura the bullets gain towards the end) + "replenish" the weapon, as in refilling the magazine.

[Deconstructor]

There are so many parts of this episode that I enjoyed.

Probably the most subtle of all is how Madoka has been a magical girl in several quantum timelines. Despite being hailed by Kyubey as the "most powerful magical girl ever" Madoka was killed no less than twice by Walpurgi's Night. The third confrontation, Madoka was able to kill Walurgi's Night in one shot.

Homura's repeating of events may correlate with Madoka's increasing power. Somehow, Homura's intentions could be falling right into Kyubey's intentions.

[FlareKnight]

These lines look like Madoka was actually speaking to Kyuubey, not Homura (which would imply that Homura got screwed in some way).
Of course, the "while protecting them" is the issue, but I would rather wait, in order to compare several translations just in case (mistakes do happen, for instance: "戦場" translated into "History").

Also, it may be another stuff regarding kyuubey, like he had to "protect" girls at some point, not particularly one of Madoka's group though.I initially assumed it was more directed towards Homura though I guess it could go either way. Kyuube certainly fits the not feeling anything while watching so many girls suffer and lose their lives. But if Madoka finds out about the time travel could ask the same to Homura. While Madoka was always her primary goal could see Madoka asking if she didn't feel anything for Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko and what they went through.

Will have to wait and see what happens in the next episode.
There are so many parts of this episode that I enjoyed.

Probably the most subtle of all is how Madoka has been a magical girl in several quantum timelines. Despite being hailed by Kyubey as the "most powerful magical girl ever" Madoka was killed no less than twice by Walpurgi's Night. The third confrontation, Madoka was able to kill Walurgi's Night in one shot.

Homura's repeating of events may correlate with Madoka's increasing power. Somehow, Homura's intentions could be falling right into Kyubey's intentions.Maybe it has to do with wishes and potential. If Madoka's wish in those early timelines were frivilous and just wanting to be a magical girl then her ability might have been low. But wanting to save Homura from a huge threat required much more power and might have let her tap into her potential better.

[Sekishi]

Not an accurate comparison. For your comparison to work, the money you made would go to saving the lives of 100 million elsewhere. Is it that easy to compare now?

What if you had a guarantee that if you killed ten million individuals, you would save ten times that in return?

It seems to me you didn'T get the example.

A salesman selling shitty products, that cause the deaths of customers, isn't going to end as charity person donating the money he made selling said fail products. He will spend the rest of his life on a caribbean island with cocktails and a harem of beautiful well stacked women.

[Xion Valkyrie]

There are so many parts of this episode that I enjoyed.

Probably the most subtle of all is how Madoka has been a magical girl in several quantum timelines. Despite being hailed by Kyubey as the "most powerful magical girl ever" Madoka was killed no less than twice by Walpurgi's Night. The third confrontation, Madoka was able to kill Walurgi's Night in one shot.

Homura's repeating of events may correlate with Madoka's increasing power. Somehow, Homura's intentions could be falling right into Kyubey's intentions.

As someone said earlier, it is the wish that gives strength. In every one but the previous timeline, Madoka became a magical girl already, and her wish was probably something very stupid (cake!). Remember how the powers magical girls have are tied very closely to the wish they make and their feelings and convictions behind that wish? Previous timeline Madoka made her wish in circumstances quite difference from all the earlier timelines, so thus her wish granted her equivalent power, or just allowed her full potential to manifest.

I doubt she's getting more powerful in each iteration, it's just that in all the earlier iterations, she was able to use her full potential.

[Zeroryoko1974]

Homura is tech the official main heroine of this series now isn't she?

Also to fix everything Madoka need only make one wish:

"I Wish QB had never existed"

Thus solving everything with a self destructing paradox.

Divide by 0 universe implodes

[Sheba]

I'd second Homura's actual weapon being her shield. Since "protecting Madoka" is part of her wish, it does make sense.

[taofd]

Since her vow is to protect (instead of slaying anything), perhaps her "real" weapon is actually the shield, since it is the only thing that stands out aside of her attire, which actually fits Homura prior her conviction kicking full drive.
Not only it bestows her the power to time freeze, but it is also a dimensional pocket as well, which doesn't seem to be something other girls have.

But as far as it goes, we should keep in mind that Aoki may not know the full picture of the story, so it is possible that she didn't know that the bow wasn't meant to be Homura's, and still included it in the promotional illustrations. That or the idea was scrapped midway, as it is possible Urobuchi and/or Shinbo changed their mind at some point.
This point is understandable, because there isn't any weapon left (we got swords and guns, and if the bow is taken, there isn't really many classic weapons that would match Madoka), so they probably put the bow on Madoka, so Homura has something more... "exotic".

The exact quote is: "Watashi wa Kaname-san to no deai yo yarinaoshitai. Kanojo ni mamorareru watashi ja nakute, Kanojo mamoru watashi ni naritai."

I want to fix my meeting with Kaname (Madoka). Rather than being protected by that girl, I want to become her protector.

Once again, my Japanese is abysmal, so native speakers please feel free to correct me.

It sounds like there are two clauses to the wish

1) To fix her meeting with Madoka
2) To become her protector


It seems to me you didn'T get the example.

A salesman selling shitty products, that cause the deaths of customers, isn't going to end as charity person donating the money he made selling said fail products. He will spend the rest of his life on a caribbean island with cocktails and a harem of beautiful well stacked women.

And you didn't get my point. You are comparing QB to a salesman selling shitty products, but keep in mind that he is doing this to save the universe.

Pretty big difference IMO.

[Doddler]

Homura healing her eyes with magic isn't that surprising. She seems to have gotten over the heart disease thing pretty quick too. Healing herself is something I imagine she can do, after all Kyubey said that that's one of the main advantages of being separated from your soul.

But onto the important stuff, like how it will end. Basically, I can only see one way it can end; it will involve a sacrifice. Homura will have to sacrifice herself to save Madoka, or Madoka will sacrifice herself to save Homura. It seems unlikely that Homura can beat Walprugis on her own even sacrificing herself, so it seems more likely that Madoka will make the move. It seemed obvious in the episode that time didn't loop automatically, but was a conscious effort by Homura to reset time once she realized she couldn't save her. Homura has to be both alive, and be a magical girl for time to loop. Both of those could possibly change, by either Homura or Madoka's wish. Otherwise, I don't see any reasonable way it could end without her just resetting time again. Walprugis has to die, and Madoka is the only one that can do that.

[Deconstructor]

As someone said earlier, it is the wish that gives strength. In every one but the previous timeline, Madoka became a magical girl already, and her wish was probably something very stupid (cake!). Remember how the powers magical girls have are tied very closely to the wish they make and their feelings and convictions behind that wish? Previous timeline Madoka made her wish in circumstances quite difference from all the earlier timelines, so thus her wish granted her equivalent power, or just allowed her full potential to manifest.

I doubt she's getting more powerful in each iteration, it's just that in all the earlier iterations, she was able to use her full potential.

No, that is exactly what I meant.

Take for example the "original" timeline. Madoka was defeated and killed by Walpurgi's Night. Trying to stop this, Homura travels back into time.

Now, the current timeline. Homura is trying to stop Madoka from contracting. But in doing so, she is indirectly changing Madoka's wish from something trivial to something massive.

Kyubey wants Madoka to make an important wish, so he can acquire more energy from Madoka's emotions. The irony is that Homura's actions are working into Kyubey's plans.

[FlareKnight]

Does seem like things are going right how QB would want. Homura's improving his haul by making Madoka's wish be something much more important.

[Xion Valkyrie]

No, that is exactly what I meant.

Take for example the "original" timeline. Madoka was defeated and killed by Walpurgi's Night. Trying to stop this, Homura travels back into time.

Now, the current timeline. Homura is trying to stop Madoka from contracting. But in doing so, she is indirectly changing Madoka's wish from something trivial to something massive.

Kyubey wants Madoka to make an important wish, so he can acquire more energy from Madoka's emotions. The irony is that Homura's actions are working into Kyubey's plans.

I'm not entirely sure about that. I mean, we don't actually know whether Witch Madoka is any stronger. For all we know, becoming a Witch just unleashes her full potential, which QB can harvest, so as long as she turns into a Witch, then QB meets his quota. Her wish just makes her strong/stronger as a magical girl. We didn't actually see the aftermath of what happened when she turned into a Witch in the other time lines because Homura jumped before then.

[Sheba]

And you didn't get my point. You are comparing QB to a salesman selling shitty products, but keep in mind that he is doing this to save the universe.

Pretty big difference IMO.

I am sorry, but logic be damned, the idea of the extermination of our specie as an unfortunate consequence of QB's plan is not really sitting well with me. That Madoka called him "the enemy", and that QB talked about the aftermath of the last loop in terms that can be put as "So long, thanks for the fish" just serves to drive the point home for me.

[Archon_Wing]

I am sorry, but logic be damned, the idea of the extermination of our specie as an unfortunate consequence of QB's plan is not really sitting well with me. That Madoka called him "the enemy", and that QB talked about the aftermath of the last loop in terms that can be put as "So long, thanks for the fish" just serves to drive the point home for me.

Nah, I think we should all sacrifice ourselves because it's a good cause.

Because umm... he said so. OK!

:heh:

Honestly he could randomly recited words from some bad random sci-fi novel and his argument would be the same.

[Vanish]

I'm not entirely sure about that. I mean, we don't actually know whether Witch Madoka is any stronger. For all we know, becoming a Witch just unleashes her full potential, which QB can harvest, so as long as she turns into a Witch, then QB meets his quota. Her wish just makes her strong/stronger as a magical girl. We didn't actually see the aftermath of what happened when she turned into a Witch in the other time lines because Homura jumped before then.

I agree. It could mean ratshit for Kyubei as long as she turns into a witch anyhow and then have the quota reached. But of course, the more the better I guess, in case 1) her wish actually has an impact of the energy released upon transforming into a witch and 2) he actually knows. And none of those two are confirmed or proven.

[Kinematics]

Far-flung crazy-ass theory.

Homura needs a third option, as has been said multiple times. One thing constantly ignored (perhaps rightly so; I need to rewatch a few times to be sure) is Sayaka. It's ye old Chekov gun sitting there.

No, Kyouko didn't manage to save Sayaka, to bring her back from being a witch. On the other hand, she did do something completely outside the bounds of expectations, and different from previous timelines: she destroyed her own soul gem to be with Sayaka. The question is exactly what that entails.

The basic assumption is that Kyouko killed Sayaka, and likely died along with her (which could be the case, but that cuts off my theory at the roots, so ignoring for now). However, I don't believe any grief seed appeared after the event, so Sayaka should still exist. If she's not considered an active threat that an MG would expect to fight (sort of implied by the idea that that subplot is 'resolved'), then she must be 'contained' or 'suppressed' in some way.

A lot of the imagery around that point sort of gives a soft nod towards a merging of souls. Kyouko's soul gem shattered, but where did her soul go? Is it now bound to Sayaka's grief seed?


So the first CAT thought was that, even if Kyouko couldn't save Sayaka, conceivably Homura could save the Sayaka-Kyouko hybrid, or at least bring it around as an ally in the fight against Walpurgisnacht.


But then another thought hit me, from the other crazy theory going around that the Walpurgisnacht witch was actually Homura (since it can't be Sayaka anymore). And it occurred to me that there's another point being ignored: the meaning of "Walpurgisnacht" -- a gathering of witches. Plural.

What if the Walpurgisnacht witch *is* a gathering of witches, and not just a single mighty enemy? That is, a merged form of several witches, or perhaps even magical girls (Kyouko)?


Now consider, who can Kyubei not get energy from? Those who don't make contracts with him, those whose soul gem is broken, and those who are already witches.

He also keeps the used grief seeds so that they don't 'revive'. Homura also appears to have a fairly large collection of grief seeds that she's not handing over to Kyubei..


So, building blocks:
Walpurgisnacht shows vague similarities to Sayaka and Homura (and perhaps Kyouko with the fire attack)
Walpurgisnacht seems to 'appear' at different points in time (allusion to Homura's time-jumping?)
Walpurgisnacht can't generate energy for Kyubei et al
Walpurgisnacht does have a tremendous amount of power


End game:
Homura uses magic relentlessly and constantly uses grief seeds until the witches are ready to revive. (not strictly necessary, but would be nice to 'save' the other witches)
She puts those grief seeds with Sayaka/Kyouko to allow them to merge and grow.
After using them up, Homura returns to that lair and bonds her own soul to the great gathering.
Walpurgisnacht is born, but with limited control (too many drivers, one steering wheel). Time jumping ensues until they can return to the proper place/time they need to be to meet Madoka.
Madoka is left alone, but given her final wish: "I want to be together with my friends forever."
Homura's wish to be strong enough to protect Madoka is fulfilled.

Earth now has a defender of unimaginable strength able to fend off any further Kyubei intrusions, while also bypassing the problem of them getting Madoka's energy. Assuming they don't destroy the Earth themselves.

In other words, a path that could break the system, which is what is actually needed to reach a true 'good' end.

[Anh_Minh]

- How old are they? Do they really teach that kind of maths to kids that young?
- Sayaka was a bit of a bitch. I wonder what her excuse was in that timeline.
- It reminded me of the first volume of Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria. Groundhog days can be goddamn cruel.
- I wondered why Homura didn't try a bit harder to save Mami. And then I remembered. As a magical girl, it was already too late for her no matter what.

I am sorry, but logic be damned, the idea of the extermination of our specie as an unfortunate consequence of QB's plan is not really sitting well with me. That Madoka called him "the enemy", and that QB talked about the aftermath of the last loop in terms that can be put as "So long, thanks for the fish" just serves to drive the point home for me.
There's no doubt he's the enemy. At the same time, if our position were reversed, if we could ensure the survival of the universe by killing the furry little freaks, I have no doubt we'd do it. We have committed genocide - against members of our own species, too - for a lot less than that.


That aside, I do find it extremely odd that she doesn't have a weapon. Her time magic is related to her wish, it's the same as Sayaka's healing factor or Mami's strings. She should be able to create weapons using magic like the others do (hell, Mami can creates billions of them).

She's got those grenades. They're magical.

[ThereminVox]

- Sayaka was a bit of a bitch. I wonder what her excuse was in that timeline.

One of the things that impresses me about this series is that they've done the legwork to establish that when the characters do something which might seem cruel or foolish out of context, there's always a reason for it. As a result, I haven't seen a lot of people turning on Sayaka or Mami for their actions in Timeline 3. We've reached the point where the characters are established as flawed, but always sympathetic, so we can take for granted that they have reasons, and we can even guess what they may be. Your mileage may vary, of course.

- I wondered why Homura didn't try a bit harder to save Mami. And then I remembered. As a magical girl, it was already too late for her no matter what.

I get the impression that Homura is losing herself a lot faster than she'll admit, much like Sayaka did. I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say she'll reset the scene a thousand times, but it's obviously taken a terrible toll on her. It wouldn't surprise me if this is actually one of her last -- if not her very last -- chances. She's focusing entirely on Madoka, probably because she can't bear to let herself care for the others only to lose them all again. Even with Madoka she slips into despair in episode 8. I think she's a lot closer to hitting her grief limit than we realize.

She may have the determination to go on forever, but if she loses hope of success, the game is over. And hope for her is in very, very short supply.

[Endscape]

One of the things that impresses me about this series is that they've done the legwork to establish that when the characters do something which might seem cruel or foolish out of context, there's always a reason for it. As a result, I haven't seen a lot of people turning on Sayaka or Mami for their actions in Timeline 3. We've reached the point where the characters are established as flawed, but always sympathetic, so we can take for granted that they have reasons, and we can even guess what they may be. Your mileage may vary, of course.

True, true. Sayaka just thought she was working for Kyouko that time, in fact she wasn't even all that hard on her, compared to this timeline. Judging from the fact that we all saw them fighting together, they got over it.



I get the impression that Homura is losing herself a lot faster than she'll admit, much like Sayaka did. I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say she'll reset the scene a thousand times, but it's obviously taken a terrible toll on her. It wouldn't surprise me if this is actually one of her last -- if not her very last -- chances. She's focusing entirely on Madoka, probably because she can't bear to let herself care for the others only to lose them all again. Even with Madoka she slips into despair in episode 8. I think she's a lot closer to hitting her grief limit than we realize.

Again, I agree. She's so shell shocked she's given up on any Magical Girl being saved, including herself.

[Triple_R]

- How old are they? Do they really teach that kind of maths to kids that young?

I vaguely recall one of the Nanoha animes showing Nanoha and her classmates working on fairly advanced algebra. In Grade 4 or 5. Taking Madoka into account as well, maybe the Japanese actually do teach math at a faster pace than we tend to do in North America.


- Sayaka was a bit of a bitch. I wonder what her excuse was in that timeline.

Somebody tells you something that you really don't want to hear, and you have nothing but that person's word to go on. How many people would be inclined to believe such a person? Keep in mind that at this point in Timeline 3, Sayaka likely has little reason to suspect Kyubey of tricking or wronging her.

Sayaka was a bit cold towards Homura, but it was understandable in my opinion.




- I wondered why Homura didn't try a bit harder to save Mami. And then I remembered. As a magical girl, it was already too late for her no matter what.

Not only that but she probably wanted to spare Mami the awful truth, especially given how Mami handled it in Timeline 3.

[SagaraSouske]

Just watched it twice. Despite being a great episode it was a little disappointing to see standard time loop. But still a fantastic eps regardless.

A few thoughts:

1. Even though 5 time lines were shown in this episode, Homura most likely have experienced far more then 5, kinda similar to groundhog days. With the time constraints, these 5 are to illustrate important changes in Homura.

2. It's possible to have a 12 Monkey type scenario where it is a constant chance of finding a solution that in turn changed the cause except that with each iteration, the solution catches up faster and faster to the cause.

3. I suspect the power that grants the wish is from the girl's souls and not from QB. QB is merely the facilitator. It explains why the MG's power are related to their wish. And QB being there to collect energy, wouldn't have expend energy to generate the wish. This is where the loophole of the system may lie.

4. The power the MG have is based on their soul when contract is made. I think the stronger the MG's will is, the stronger the power their SG will grant them and hence Madoka is seen to have the strongest power in several time lines because adversity strengthen her will. She possibly have even stronger power in the current time line because of what she has gone through is worse then previous timelines and she is still holding together. Homura getting stronger is likely the same way, on top of her vast combat experiences.

5. QB mentioned something interesting when he contracted Homura, about entropy will be increasing. The energy release may actually accelerating entropy rather then slowing it down or preventing it. Also, it is possible that they can farm more then just humans and we are just one of the species they destroyed in this manner.

6. Madoka clearly had a moment akin to Deja Vu from her dream in Ep 1. Be that future echo or residue memory from time loops, it may be possible for Homura to pass more information into the next loop.

7. QB still have one more piece of mystery: why does he collect grief seeds if he is doing it for the energy release. A while back I made a random speculation that WQ night witch is the result from merging all the grief seeds and that's why it is so powerful and different from normal witches.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Not only that but she probably wanted to spare Mami the awful truth, especially given how Mami handled it in Timeline 3.

Or maybe because Mami locked her with ribbons and left her before Homura could stop her. Remember how she told her that "This witch is different" and "Wait!" - But Mami ignored her and left.

I doubt she had any control over that battle.

[Anh_Minh]

Somebody tells you something that you really don't want to hear, and you have nothing but that person's word to go on. How many people would be inclined to believe such a person? Keep in mind that at this point in Timeline 3, Sayaka likely has little reason to suspect Kyubey of tricking or wronging her.

Sayaka was a bit cold towards Homura, but it was understandable in my opinion.

It's one thing to not believe her. But she didn't have to be so goddamn rude about it.

I don't mean to sound too xenophobic, but Homura's human. Kyubei isn't. Who knows how his kind thinks? And even if he thinks like a human... The question of why he's involved in the magical girl business at all is suspect. I'm not saying they should have blindly believed Homura, but it wouldn't have hurt to give it some thought. And to not lash out at her.

[Klashikari]

It isn't just about trust, it is yet again an issue with Sayaka prone to judge people extremely quickly.
Since she is basically following Mami, she of course would rather bet on Kyuubey than anything else, which leaves to her pesky "white and black" vision.
It is even more evident when she accused that Homura was in cahoots with Kyouko, despite there wasn't any evidence, and that it was very likely that Homura joined them for a certain time.

And I can't call that a coincidence that she suddenly wants Homura to be kicked out (she never suggested that she should change her weapons: she basically wanted Homura out of the picture).
Regardless she may be right in doubting Homura, her approach was definitely not the best you can expect even with her circumstances.

[Xellos-_^]

It isn't just about trust, it is yet again an issue with Sayaka prone to judge people extremely quickly.
Since she is basically following Mami, she of course would rather bet on Kyuubey than anything else, which leaves to her pesky "white and black" vision.
It is even more evident when she accused that Homura was in cahoots with Kyouko, despite there wasn't any evidence, and that it was very likely that Homura joined them for a certain time.

And I can't call that a coincidence that she suddenly wants Homura to be kicked out (she never suggested that she should change her weapons: she basically wanted Homura out of the picture).
Regardless she may be right in doubting Homura, her approach was definitely not the best you can expect even with her circumstances.
Sayaka has too much a sense of Good and Evil, which is probably in the timelines shown she was the first to crack.

[Klashikari]

^ which leaves to yet again the same conclusion I had way before: I still believe that Sayaka doesn't exactly follow a sense of justice, but justify herself with it.
Because of it, she sees herself as the paragon of virtue, and anything that does not follow her path is an enemy. This is indeed leading to the disaster we have seen in the third and fifth timeline.

Whereas she is obviously well intentioned doesn't factor in the issue (otherwise, she wouldn't be able to "befriend" Kyoko after all), it is her judgment, more accurately over people, that is definitely disrupted, ultimately twisted when she begun to snap.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Sayaka has too much a sense of Good and Evil, which is probably in the timelines shown she was the first to crack.

More like she takes things too hard. Although how much is from the wish's repercussions is unclear.

[Cosmic Eagle]

The bullets from her guns and the explosives were still magical. Notice the purple bullets that Kyubey avoided at the end.

I thought that was future tech.....

[Archon_Wing]

Well, I hope there's some kind of peace or resolution to be found even if whatever it is doesn't work. I hate it when anime just leaves us to "find your own interpretation" BS. Otherwise I will feel like I've just watched 12 episodes of a snuff anime. :heh: Even the cynic in me would find that utterly pointless.

Currently I would rate the anime as of now to be an 8-8.5/10. I will give it a 10 if the ending blows my mind.

[Endscape]

It isn't just about trust, it is yet again an issue with Sayaka prone to judge people extremely quickly.
Since she is basically following Mami, she of course would rather bet on Kyuubey than anything else, which leaves to her pesky "white and black" vision.
It is even more evident when she accused that Homura was in cahoots with Kyouko, despite there wasn't any evidence, and that it was very likely that Homura joined them for a certain time.

And I can't call that a coincidence that she suddenly wants Homura to be kicked out (she never suggested that she should change her weapons: she basically wanted Homura out of the picture).
Regardless she may be right in doubting Homura, her approach was definitely not the best you can expect even with her circumstances.

I think she just takes things a bit too hard. And really, I can't blame Sayaka for thinking that she was with Kyouko, she was saying something pretty out there with no proof, and Sayaka pretty much is the opposite of how Kyouko acts initially.

And she didn't want Sayaka to get out, she just thought she was working with Kyouko, and that she should stop with the spontaneous explosions, which is again understandable. In fact, judging from the end of that timeline, they all managed to get along in the end. I wish i could see that timeline, if only for that...

[Triple_R]

I don't mean to sound too xenophobic, but Homura's human. Kyubei isn't. Who knows how his kind thinks? And even if he thinks like a human... The question of why he's involved in the magical girl business at all is suspect. I'm not saying they should have blindly believed Homura, but it wouldn't have hurt to give it some thought. And to not lash out at her.

The thing is, if Homura is lying there, then it's a very malicious lie.

Sayaka wants to think that Homura is lying (since if she's telling the truth it has dire consequences), and so she does so, and then she takes that to its logical conclusion (Homura is being malicious towards Kyubey for no good reason). That results in a bit of a lashing out.

I think that some posters may be, somewhat ironically, a bit too judgmental towards Sayaka.


In fact, judging from the end of that timeline, they all managed to get along in the end. I wish i could see that timeline, if only for that...

Timeline 3 is the one that I find the most interesting too. I'd love to see how having all five of the girls active as magical girls at the same time played out.

[Anh_Minh]

I think she just takes things a bit too hard. And really, I can't blame Sayaka for thinking that she was with Kyouko,

I can. "I don't like what she's saying" -> "She's working with Kyouko"? How did she get there?

And wanting to kick her out... Magical Girl is a dangerous business. That's why they banded together. Kicking her out isn't precisely a death sentence, but it doesn't fall that short in intent.
The thing is, if Homura is lying there, then it's a very malicious lie.
And if she isn't, what can she do except warn them? (Well, we see that in subsequent timelines. But you know what I mean.)

Sayaka wants to think that Homura is lying (since if she's telling the truth it has dire consequences), and so she does so, and then she takes that to its logical conclusion (Homura is being malicious towards Kyubey for no good reason). That results in a bit of a lashing out.

I think that many posters are, somewhat ironically, too judgmental towards Sayaka.

That's why I only said "a bit of a bitch". Yes, it's understandable. But still damn unpleasant. I can't bring myself to approve. Especially when you compare her reaction to Mami's and Madoka's. They didn't believe her either, but they weren't rude or mean about it, either.

I also suspect - though I may be unkind, there - that part of Sayaka's reason for pushing Homura away is her own insecurity. Homura was a bit of a pushover personality-wise, but she her time stop ability was potentially very powerful. Sayaka, OTOH, is rather limited as a magical girl. I wonder if she realized that? And, subconsciously, turned against Homura out of resentment?

[Endscape]

I can. "I don't like what she's saying" -> "She's working with Kyouko"? How did she get there?

And wanting to kick her out... Magical Girl is a dangerous business. That's why they banded together. Kicking her out isn't precisely a death sentence, but it doesn't fall that short in intent.

And if she isn't, what can she do except warn them? (Well, we see that in subsequent timelines. But you know what I mean.)

Well, if it was a lie, then the logical reason is to cause dissension, and Kyoko would be the cause of that..



That's why I only said "a bit of a bitch". Yes, it's understandable. But still damn unpleasant. I can't bring myself to approve. Especially when you compare her reaction to Mami's and Madoka's. They didn't believe her either, but they weren't rude or mean about it, either.

I also suspect - though I may be unkind, there - that part of Sayaka's reason for pushing Homura away is her own insecurity. Homura was a bit of a pushover personality-wise, but she her time stop ability was potentially very powerful. Sayaka, OTOH, is rather limited as a magical girl. I wonder if she realized that? And, subconsciously, turned against Homura out of resentment?

Ehh, I don't hold it against her. There were reasons. If I did, then I'd hold stuff like what Homura did in Ep 9 against her, but I don't. It's just a bad situation.

[ThereminVox]

Timeline 3 is the one that I find the most interesting too. I'd love to see how having all five of the girls active as magical girls at the same time played out.

Agreed, Timeline 3 is the big hope spot for Homura, and it's also a tantalizing reward to the audience because it's a brief glimpse at the Magical Girl team you might have expected from the show going in. Then of course, it subverts the Higurashi ending, since even though the whole team is united, everything goes to pot anyway. The lesson Homura takes, right or wrong, is that she can neither save everyone, nor depend on anyone, and that trying to do so is a sucker's bet.

[lightbringer]

I thought that was future tech.....

Clarke's third law applies.

[Proto]

I wished the girls realized that Warpusgis Night's grief seed must be like the ultimate Soul Gem vacuum cleaner.

[Cyz]

Homura must've experienced eternal torture seeing the same outcome over and over again. Oh and I see that she has an endless space for her weapons. Hm, well she does control space and time.

[taofd]

Homura must've experienced eternal torture seeing the same outcome over and over again. Oh and I see that she has an endless space for her weapons. Hm, well she does control space and time.

Mm I wonder if she can store QB in her "astral pouch".

[Deconstructor]

What should be Homura's goal?
Is it to prevent Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi without having to kill Madoka? Or should she try to find ways for Puella Magi not to transform into witches? (Happy ending)

I find it depressing (yet entertaining) to watch a glasses-wearing, geeky girl transform into a gun-wielding, indifferent soldier. And have every step of that progression marked by death and despair. Here I thought Sayaka's personality change was intense.

Of course, there's a witch firing out enemies from her giant skirt. And Homura throws a grenade up that skirt. Nice one, Shinbo.

I am uncertain whether Homura is the true heroine of the story, or if she is making things worse by reverting time. On one hand, Homura's powers are a reset button to disastrous outcomes. On the other, Homura may die in a timeline which results in an even worse outcome than the one she originated in. Madoka simply died in the first one, but she also became a witch with the power to "destroy Earth" in the third. Should Homura die in one of those timelines, the Earth is doomed.

Above all of this is Kyubey, who is planted with the motive to collect energy for the universe's survival. The viewers never see if or how Kyubey is helping, intentionally making most viewers unsympathetic to his cause. The survival of Earth and humanity is not Kyubey's problem; as long as Kyubey gets the energy, the entire world can just die. Even if the Earth is a mere planet compared to the galaxies of the universe, there is something I find wrong with superior lifeforms manipulating humans and sacrificing them for that cause. Doesn't anyone else?

I have never seen a "time loop" episode before, so this is quite the thrilling experience for me. The pain of seeing your family die over and over again would probably turn the nicest person into the coldest agent. Homura chose to give herself the burden of trying to save Madoka, but all previous timelines have fallen directly into Kyubey's plans. The current timeline shows signs of repeating history - I really hope Homura succeeds this time. If not, I really, really hope Homura does not die.

I love how Urobuchi immediately contradicts speech with reality.
Madoka: I can't take this anymore!
Homura: It'll be fine! Let us work hard together!

One scene later, Madoka and Homura are on the ground, their Soul Gems at the point of darkness. Life is hopeless.

I also suspect - though I may be unkind, there - that part of Sayaka's reason for pushing Homura away is her own insecurity. Homura was a bit of a pushover personality-wise, but she her time stop ability was potentially very powerful. Sayaka, OTOH, is rather limited as a magical girl. I wonder if she realized that? And, subconsciously, turned against Homura out of resentment?

You are probably overanalyzing a minor detail. Sayaka simply did not believe Homura's story. Also, she was a close range fighter, which puts her at danger from Homura's grenades.

[Sackett]

Terrific episode.

Looking back after the end I can't really say anything was too surprising, but it did everything it needed to do and it did it well.

[Tunafishisgood]

just a random thought while re watching. I didn't see QB in the scenes involving timeline 3(one where Homura warns everyone about MG becoming witches.) It would be interesting if Homura and Madoka managed to get rid of him in that timeline after the event where Sayaka, Mami and Kyouko died.

[Vanish]

What should be Homura's goal?
Is it to prevent Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi without having to kill Madoka? Or should she try to find ways for Puella Magi not to transform into witches? (Happy ending)

Madoka needs to at the very least live through WPN without becoming an MG in the proccess or a witch shortly afterwards. If Homura manages to do that, the time will not be reset at the point we've been shown so far.

It's tricky though. Madoka might as well turn MG / witch a few days or weeks later. Would that also make the time reset and go back way to the 16th? That would be too much for Homura to take I think.

Or would she die / kill herself after she successfully got Madoka through WPN? But then Kyubei is still there. So... since Homura's next episode key line is "The only remaining way", I'm dying to find out what that way is.

I am uncertain whether Homura is the true heroine of the story, or if she is making things worse by reverting time. On one hand, Homura's powers are a reset button to disastrous outcomes. On the other, Homura may die in a timeline which results in an even worse outcome than the one she originated in. Madoka simply died in the first one, but she also became a witch with the power to "destroy Earth" in the third. Should Homura die in one of those timelines, the Earth is doomed.

What's a true heroine? They're all heroines to me, and given that there's still more to Madoka than her magic potential, and also the title of the series, I guess Madoka is the true heroine?

Homura (as long as she is alive) can't make anything worse, at least regarding the ultimate outcome. The results during WPN can be worse, sure, but that doesn't matter because the time will reset as long as Madoka turns or dies. What's most important is the future after the already known future. But if no one believes in the latter already, then hope will be even thinner.

The current timeline shows signs of repeating history - I really hope Homura succeeds this time. If not, I really, really hope Homura does not die.

Signs of repeating history when time is reset is a given. What I find significant is that the current timeline shows signs of abnormalities, for example the fact that Madoka starts to remember things for whatever odd reason.

[DragoZERO]

:(

I am holding back my tears the best I can, but it's just not enough. My god.

*sob*

Just...

It...

I mean...

She...

*sob*

[Cyz]

Mm I wonder if she can store QB in her "astral pouch".
Nah, he always pops out regardless anyway.

[Hooves]

Madoka needs to at the very least live through WPN without becoming an MG in the proccess or a witch shortly afterwards. If Homura manages to do that, the time will not be reset at the point we've been shown so far.

It's tricky though. Madoka might as well turn MG / witch a few days or weeks later. Would that also make the time reset and go back way to the 16th? That would be too much for Homura to take I think.

Or would she die / kill herself after she successfully got Madoka through WPN? But then Kyubei is still there. So... since Homura's next episode key line is "The only remaining way", I'm dying to find out what that way is.

I'm curious myself, after seeing this episode and what happens after Walpurgis Night and Homura creating a replica of how Higurashi repeats time, after many failed attempts at atleast keeping Madoka alive. I'm just way too curious on how Homura will do this.

Signs of repeating history when time is reset is a given. What I find significant is that the current timeline shows signs of abnormalities, for example the fact that Madoka starts to remember things for whatever odd reason.

Well, nothing really changed besides Madoka just remembering what happened the last time Walpurgis Night came in before Homura repeated time. But things are certainly going differently, but still producing the same results. Mami died due to not listening to Homura's advice about being cautious about this strange witch. Kyoko and Sayaka both died together since Sayaka turned into a witch again, even if she was killed by Homura and Kyoko lived that fight, Kyoko might have lost her mentality and couldn't do this anymore. Either way, it's always going to lead to Homura either fighting Walpurgis Night alone, or with Madoka joining the scene which Homura doesn't want to happen because Madoka will die but ending the Walpurgis, but will replace it with becoming a very dangerous witch.

[Crontica]

Another thing i noticed is that when Madoka's Grief Seed manifested, it shattered before turning into Broken Bow, usually we see Magical Girls turn directly into witches which need to be defeated before you get the GS.

It means that a GS can be used to seal the witch just like the SG was used to seal a human, maybe the GS shattered behind the scenes with Sayaka but something doesn't make sense, isn't the GS supposed to be the witches soul?

That would explain that dudes Crazy Ass Theory somewhere in this thread that shattered SG's before corruption release the soul or in this case Positive energy.
QB just conveniently left out that part about Soul Gems.

This would lead to scattered Soul Mana that Madoka-4 used in her one hit crit.

Usually shattering GS it is supposed to kill the witch in question, if thats not the case it would explain why it was never crushed the entire series, QB feeds / releases the Negative energy for whatever reason.

The third option would be to for Homura to harvest everyones Soul Gems. :eyespin:

[Deconstructor]

Madoka needs to at the very least live through WPN without becoming an MG in the proccess or a witch shortly afterwards. If Homura manages to do that, the time will not be reset at the point we've been shown so far.

From reading your post, you seem to imply that Homura's power to "reset" to the 16th is not voluntary; it acts when one of two conditions are fulfilled. The first reset can be explained by Kyubey granting Homura's wish to redo her meeting of Madoka. Are you suggesting that Homura's wish had an implicit clause of "whenever Madoka turns into a Puella Magi or witch?"

Firstly, we see that in the second timeline, Homura says to Madoka that "I have become a Puella Magi too!" implying that Madoka is also a Puella Magi, and that Madoka contracted Kyubey before Homura arrived. Madoka is also a Puella Magi in the second and third timeline, so it is safe to say the very existence of magical girl Madoka does not trigger the time reversion. You may distinguish between that and the action of contracting to become a Puella Magi. If Madoka makes the contract after Homura arrives, then you suggest time will reset. That cannot be true either, as in the fourth timeline, Homura was seen talking to Kyubey after Madoka transformed into a Puella Magi and killed Walpurgi's Night.

I hope you really mean that Homura willingly resets time when a bad outcome occurs, and that I am heavily misunderstanding your understanding.

Homura (as long as she is alive) can't make anything worse, at least regarding the ultimate outcome. The results during WPN can be worse, sure, but that doesn't matter because the time will reset as long as Madoka turns or dies. What's most important is the future after the already known future. But if no one believes in the latter already, then hope will be even thinner.

You are suggesting that Homura will always turn back time if Madoka turns Puella Magi. If Homura has willing control over this process, I can think of reasons Homura would not turn back time, should Madoka become a Puella Magi. Firstly, Homura could be incapacitated (not dead) in the battle with Walpurgi's Night, leaving her unable to revert time. This happened in the fourth timeline. Should Madoka not like the idea of repeating history, Madoka can also stop Homura herself. Maybe, Madoka wants to find a happy ending where Puella Magi do not have to turn into witches. Or, Madoka may be too pained by Homura constantly going back in time to save her, and chooses to kill Homura to end her cycle of misery. There are possibilities.

There may be a worse outcome than the initial timeline - Homura failing to ever find a solution, and constantly turning back time to stop witch Madoka from destroying the world. Forever. This is, of course, if Homura manages not to die in every single timeline. And if Homura never gives up on trying to save Madoka. Not to mention we are unaware of the limitations on Homura's powers - she seems very tired this timeline, a possible sign that Homura cannot do this forever. All of those situations would lead to witch Madoka destroying the world, a worse outcome than the initial timeline. In short, Homura cannot die, give up, or run out of energy. Or Kyubey will win.

[NaweG]

End game:
Homura uses magic relentlessly and constantly uses grief seeds until the witches are ready to revive. (not strictly necessary, but would be nice to 'save' the other witches)
She puts those grief seeds with Sayaka/Kyouko to allow them to merge and grow.
After using them up, Homura returns to that lair and bonds her own soul to the great gathering.
Walpurgisnacht is born, but with limited control (too many drivers, one steering wheel). Time jumping ensues until they can return to the proper place/time they need to be to meet Madoka.
Madoka is left alone, but given her final wish: "I want to be together with my friends forever."
Homura's wish to be strong enough to protect Madoka is fulfilled.

Earth now has a defender of unimaginable strength able to fend off any further Kyubei intrusions, while also bypassing the problem of them getting Madoka's energy. Assuming they don't destroy the Earth themselves.

In other words, a path that could break the system, which is what is actually needed to reach a true 'good' end.

I hope you're right, because this would be just brilliant. Bittersweet, but with a sense of hope!

Which probably means there's no chance in heck of this being the case, but please do the FanFiction of this if not :-)

[DragoZERO]

I... It... *sob*

It was astounding. Amazing. Brilliant. Revolutionary! My notables were Mami freaking out and killing Kyoko. That was a major shocker. Not even she was invincible. The glasses and hair style were a wonderful touch. We didn't see the discovery about the soul being in the soul gem, but I guess we can assume she found that out along the way. It was also surprising how weak Homura actually was. Brilliance. I don't like the sound of the preview though.

Now then, I think I'll cry myself to sleep.

[potchip]

Don't quite understand how in some timelines Madoka's already contracted before Homura transferred, whilst in others she's yet to contract.

[MeoTwister5]

Don't quite understand how in some timelines Madoka's already contracted before Homura transferred, whilst in others she's yet to contract.

The universe aren't exactly identical. The end result is the same (Walpurgisnacht), but the variables in between may differ.

That said, if Homura's power allows her to jump timelines, retain her memory and essentially overlap with her respective self in the new timeline, could it be possible that her powers allow the same for everyone else, just that they lose their memories unlike her?

I think I'll cover that in the Spoilers thread.

[Hooves]

Don't quite understand how in some timelines Madoka's already contracted before Homura transferred, whilst in others she's yet to contract.

That sorta confused me as well, but it seemed that Madoka had plenty of time in the first part when Homura transferred, we got background information of Homura while Madoka went and got into a contract with Kyubey while idolizing Mami (I assume). then they eventually met up with Homura. The second time I'm not quite sure, the third time I'm clueless yet again. When Homura snuck around Madoka's house (o.o.....) and told her if a certain animal-like-furball asks to make a contract to not agree to it. I think that was the last one right?

Edit: I'll just head to the spoilers thread to get my answer if the question is always asked and answered.

[DragoZERO]

Homura didn't waste time in the hospital. And we don't know when Madoka made the contract after the first time.

[Deconstructor]

Homura didn't waste time in the hospital. And we don't know when Madoka made the contract after the first time.

We do in the second to last timeline (the fourth) when Madoka contracts Kyubey to defeat Walpurgi's Night. Madoka was watching Homura losing and made the contract.

Don't quite understand how in some timelines Madoka's already contracted before Homura transferred, whilst in others she's yet to contract.

The possibilities are as follows:
-Homura reverts time back to the 16th as if all events that occurred after that day did not happen. The past is the same.
-Homura reverts time to the 16th, but the events before the 16th are different.

Possibility one seems more likely, as Homura wished to "redo" events, not alter them. However, possibility two can also happen as an unintended side effect out of Homura's control.

If ALL events up to the 16th always remain the same, then Madoka must have made the contract after the exact moment Homura returns. Madoka making the contract in timeline four is proof of this. This does NOT mean that Madoka contracts before meeting Homura in class. Homura, with knowledge of Kyubey's intentions, could easily stop time and kill Kyubey's bodies before they reach Madoka.

[Kinematics]

Don't quite understand how in some timelines Madoka's already contracted before Homura transferred, whilst in others she's yet to contract.

My guess based on the calendar (untranslated; could be wrong) is that the day Homura wakes up is the 16th, and the day she is scheduled to return to school is the 25th. Madoka probably contracts somewhere in the 18th-21st time period.

So if Homura waits through the normal schedule, Madoka will already be contracted by the time she gets to school. However if Homura takes action immediately (as she has in the last few repeats) she can get there before the contract is made.

[jeroz]

kind of saw this coming when Homura replied"statistics" to Kyoko's question.

still, to see it unfold before my eyes in such great fashion is still such an emotional toll.

[Dawnbringerz]

We actually see Homura killed QB outside Madoka's window in timeline 4.
That is probably where Madoka made contract with QB in all other timelines where she is MG prior to Homura's transfer.


Regarding timeline 3, Homura probably learned from timeline 2 that if a MG exhaust all her evergy, she will turn into a witch, so she need to gather more MGs to lessen the toll on one MG (particularly Madoka). This probably lead her to ask Mami if there are any other MGs in the neighboring area, hence the introduction of Kyouko into the scene, and Sakaya's doubt that Homura might be working for Kyouko.

[guuchan]

When I was lying on the bed last night thinking about the OP and ED, while OP does sound like Homura as of episode 10, ED still sounds like her too. I mean, no matter how you look at these 3 paragraphs from the ED lyrics below, they perfectly describe Homura and can't fit Madoka in any way:

It is fine for my heart to be shattered into pieces
If I can move forward without hestitation
I want a spell to let me face
The sadness that is
Always right in front of me

The memory you see in your dream again
Is my sleepless tomorrow
I move forward in order to achieve the miracle
Of the two of us meeting each other

I murmur that the power of changing the world
Is in your hand
Let's have an endless dream
During the time when I walk with you

This episode itself couldn't help but lead me to thinking that Madoka's wish could only be one of these two: stop Homura's loop and die away together, or join Homura's loop and find the "answer" together. The last paragraph I quoted above suggested otherwise, though.

I don't know which sub that was, but she never says to return to the time of anything. She just says she want's to have another go at how she met Madoka--to have a second chance at that first meeting.

Yep.

「私は、鹿目さんとの出会いをやり直したい。彼女に守られる私じゃなくて、彼女を守る私になり たい！」

gg
Madoka:
Didn't you feel anything while protecting those girls?
Didn't you try to understand how hard it must've been for them?

Homura:
The only remaining way.

I'm unsure now, does that actually make sense?

Except that's not what Homura said though, for next episode's title.

「最後に残った道しるべ」

Sounds like they just translated "最後に残った道". "道" and "道しるべ" are very different. The whole sentence should be "The last remaining guide(ance)".

[Crontica]

Homura
Wish: Redo Time
Wish After effects: Endless 8 - Time Stop - Hammer Space - Possibility of Madoka's soul being immune to the resets
Weapon: Shield

Sayaka
Wish: Heal Kojima
Wish After effects: Quick Recovery
Weapon: Sword

Mami
Wish: Survive
Wish After effects: Bodily Regeneration
Weapon: Gun

Kyoko
Wish: Hypnotism
Wish After effects: Hypnosis
Weapon: Spear

Madoka
Wish / After effects: ???
Weapon: Bow

Other than Bat and Stave what other, weapon type are we forgetting?

Witch!Homura
Name: ???
Body: Shield - ???

Witch!Sayaka
Name: Octavia
Body: Sword - Mermaid

Witch!Mami
Name: ???
Body: ???

Witch!Kyoko
Name: ???
Body: ???

Witch!Madoka
Name: Broken Bow - It's actually a real life effect where your shadow is reflected on the sky but i've lost the link.
Body: Mountain - ???

[KaneDragon]

Awesome episode, had to watch it twice, then listened to it while browsing this thread (simultaneously playing Time Warp when I got that post). :D

Halting the episode just before the next ep preview would be a worthwhile trick to play on someone. I was really worried until that came on. :heh:

The Witch of Barrels is a fearsome witch: par 7. You could probably have a lot of fun reading symbolism into Homura throwing a pipebomb up that witch's skirt. ;)

[guuchan]

Homura
Wish: Redo Time
Wish After effects: Endless 8 - Time Stop - Hammer Space - Possibility of Madoka's soul being immune to the resets
Weapon: Shield

Sayaka
Wish: Heal Kojima
Wish After effects: Quick Recovery
Weapon: Sword

Mami
Wish: Survive
Wish After effects: Bodily Regeneration
Weapon: Gun

Kyoko
Wish: Hypnotism
Wish After effects: Hypnosis
Weapon: Spear

Madoka
Wish / After effects: ???
Weapon: Bow


Did you come up with that list basing on guessing and a misunderstanding? :heh:

Because:


Homura's wish is not exactly "redo time". Please see my post right above yours.
Mami's speciality is "Bodily Regeneration"? Where was it said/shown? And, by the way, every MG's body can regenerate per se.
Again, Kyouko's speciality is "Hypnosis"? Where was it said/shown? If it was the apple incident, that's a wild guess. It's very possible, but still a wild guess, since the show didn't slightly imply how she got the apples other than she didn't buy them.

[taofd]

When I was lying on the bed last night thinking about the OP and ED, while OP does sound like Homura as of episode 10, ED still sounds like her too. I mean, no matter how you look at these 3 paragraphs from the ED lyrics below, they perfectly describe Homura and can't fit Madoka in any way:







This episode itself couldn't help but lead me to thinking that Madoka's wish could only be one of these two: stop Homura's loop and die away together, or join Homura's loop and find the "answer" together. The last paragraph I quoted above suggested otherwise, though.



Yep.

「私は、鹿目さんとの出会いをやり直したい。彼女に守られる私じゃなくて、彼女を守る私になり たい！」



Except that's not what Homura said though, for next episode's title.

「最後に残った道しるべ」

Sounds like they just translated "最後に残った道". "道" and "道しるべ" are very different. The whole sentence should be "The last remaining guide(ance)".

I would caution attaching the OP or ED to Homura. We just watched an episode ABOUT Homura so it's natural for us to automatically associate it with her. The OP or ED could very well be about any of the girls if you looked carefully enough.

[Shadow5YA]

An important thing to note is that both the Walpurgis Night Witch and Witch Madoka do not have a labyrinth. Normally when a Witch comes into being, a labyrinth is formed, and when she dies, the labyrinth disappears with her. Even after the Witch on Walpurgis Night is destroyed, Madoka still lies on the ground of a ruined city. Whatever damage that is done on Walpurgis Night will stay, and if Madoka becomes a Witch again, I suspect whatever she does will be real as well.

[guuchan]

I would caution attaching the OP or ED to Homura. We just watched an episode ABOUT Homura so it's natural for us to automatically associate it with her. The OP or ED could very well be about any of the girls if you looked carefully enough.

That's why I said OP should be back to being Madoka again in the end. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3527025#post3527025) It's just a feeling though so I wouldn't argue for it; I will leave it open for now.

However, for ED, no matter how carefully I look at it, it just can't be describing Madoka. There is only one possibility for that to happen: the show ends with Madoka joining Homura's loop.

[Crontica]

Did you come up with that list basing on guessing and a misunderstanding? :heh:

Because:


Homura's wish is not exactly "redo time". Please see my post right above yours.
Mami's speciality is "Bodily Regeneration"? Where was it said/shown? And, by the way, every MG's body can regenerate per se.
Again, Kyouko's speciality is "Hypnosis"? Where was it said/shown? If it was the apple incident, that's a wild guess. It's very possible, but still a wild guess, since the show didn't slightly imply how she got the apples other than she didn't buy them.



Homura's wish - I get it, she wanted to "redo the time she had with madoka to fix what went wrong" locking her into a loop, i guess the word "redo time" is too powerful of a word.

Mami's specialty - Needed to add something to her specialty and apparently since no amount of wishing can save your Soul Gem's ass, Body Regeneration appeared like the right choice, or maybe i should've used Nigh Invulnerability instead.

Kyoko's wish - QB said you gain a specialty related to your wish, but of course it's the topic of mass speculah.

[Shadow5YA]

Homura's wish was to redo her meeting with Madoka in order to protect her instead of being protected. When Madoka dies or becomes a Witch, Homura can no longer protect her, so she resets again.

[zyta]

i have to really give it up for the scriptwriter(s?) this episode. there was not much conversation in this episodes as there are in other previous ones, not by far, and it managed to convey so much more feeling.

Also, i personally just noticed that the opening song is in the point of view of Homura, i always thought it was Madoka's point of view.

[applejuice]

^ Of course, the only script writer in Madoka Magica is Urobuchi... u.u~

[NinjaxAnbu]

The best solution for the world would be Homura letting Madoka make her contract, wait for her to kill Walpurgis Night, kill her before she becomes a witch, and then kill herself. This effectively reverts to the original and best timeline when no MS or witch were left to continue the cycle (at least until Kyuubey find another girl to form contract with). I have a feeling that this would be the ending.

But is it possible? Homura's wish was to protect Madoka. If she doesn't do it, then wouldn't the "miracle" become false? Is it possible for Kyuubey's miracle to fail? All the characters might be bound by some force that cause their wish to come true no matter what course of action they take. Remember, Madoka didn't die in any of the timelines after the original, after Homura made her wish to save her. She survived everytime as the most powerful witch, something that Kyuubey wants. Also, Homura would surely have died if Madoka hadn't made her wish during the last timeline. If she had died, then it means she had failed to protect Madoka from Walpurgis Night. The wish itself must've been something along the line of "I want to help/save Homura." Surely enough, Homura survived and was able to continue perpetuating the endless timeloop. Their two wishes complemented each other perfectly without causing the other to become a false miracle.

[potchip]

^
Whilst it is the best outcome for the world, that is not Homura's objective. One of the timelines had exactly the situation as you described but since Madoka became a mahou shoujo, Homura considered it a failure, and left even before Madoka turned witch. Madoka died in the first timeline and there's another where she was killed by Homura become turning witch. An ending will involve something that breaks the cycle. From Homura's perspective it must be a case of defeating the walpurgis without Madoka making a contract. Though it is possible to have a twist involving Madoka contract and breaks the system.

[Lumine]

funny thing about this episode is that it was Awesome and Painful at the same time

I'm kinda afraid that if Homura can't fullfil her duty she's going to become as twisted as Archer...

Still waiting for the OST

[Raiga]

I don't even know where to begin. Seeing Madoka ACTUALLY AS AN MG and all the ridiculous iterations and then HOLYSHIT the loop where Mami goes crazy after finding out they'll turn into witches and they all kill each other and watching Homura turn from insecure glasses girl into hardened badass...

Shaft. Urobuchi. You guys can have my soul any day.

[jeroz]

well, that's one intricate puzzle Urobuchi has set out.

a case of "damned if you do and damned if you don't". Hopefully the solution will be a masterclass and not a cope out.

[Malkuth]

Despite skipping many pages, I must say that clumsy Homura with glasses and twin braids was really cute :heh:

Also the episode was excellent, plus it had some truelly hilarious moments, like Homura foregoing the allmighty Katana for modern firepower when ransacking the Yazuka lockers.

[Sheba]

Random question because I want to be sure.

When Nerd Homura accidentally walked into the Witch's Maze for the first time, didn't the pattern on the floor match Picasso's Guernica?

[Malkuth]

Random question because I want to be sure.

When Nerd Homura accidentally walked into the Witch's Maze for the first time, didn't the pattern on the floor match Picasso's Guernica?

I think so too.

[kamyu]

Despite skipping many pages, I must say that clumsy Homura with glasses and twin braids was really cute :heh:

Also the episode was excellent, plus it had some truelly hilarious moments, like Homura foregoing the allmighty Katana for modern firepower when ransacking the Yazuka lockers.

skipping the sword is kinda silly when you think about it. even if she primarily uses guns and bombs, it would be nice to have a backup weapon (especially since it all gets stored in hammerspace anyway).

also, her first go at using her powers had her using some golf club looking thing so we know she is able to attack with melee weapons with time stopped.

[Klashikari]

Random question because I want to be sure.

When Nerd Homura accidentally walked into the Witch's Maze for the first time, didn't the pattern on the floor match Picasso's Guernica?
That's definitely Picasso, but after checking for a while, the pattern doesn't match perfectly Guernica (the eye portion doesn't match it at all).
skipping the sword is kinda silly when you think about it. even if she primarily uses guns and bombs, it would be nice to have a backup weapon (especially since it all gets stored in hammerspace anyway).

also, her first go at using her powers had her using some golf club looking thing so we know she is able to attack with melee weapons with time stopped.
It is exactly that scene that actually can demonstrate why she skipped the bladed weapons: at that point, Homura was still a tad clumsy.
Even if firearms are not so easy to handle due to the recoil, it is less taxing than wielding wildly a sword, which can lead to hazardous damage, even self injury.

Using a melee weapon when the user is actually more comfortable with firearms isn't a good idea. And considering the hammerspace, she doesn't have any disadvantage with them (be it weight, ammo etc), so there is no reason for "back up weapons".

[Jimmy C]

Back in ep8, Kyubei said it was the second time Homura killed him.
So far, most of us have assumed that the shopping mall incident was the first time.
Yet, if we follow the events shown in ep10, Homura had to have killed Kyubei at least once in the 7 days prior to that.
Homura probably found out Kyubei had spare bodies in Timeline 4. Was she simply successful at hiding the fact that she was the killer until the attack at the mall?

[kamyu]

It is exactly that scene that actually can demonstrate why she skipped the bladed weapons: at that point, Homura was still a tad clumsy.
Even if firearms are not so easy to handle due to the recoil, it is less taxing than wielding wildly a sword, which can lead to hazardous damage, even self injury.

Using a melee weapon when the user is actually more comfortable with firearms isn't a good idea. And considering the hammerspace, she doesn't have any disadvantage with them (be it weight, ammo etc), so there is no reason for "back up weapons".

i think being clumsy with a pipebomb would be a bit more dangerous than being clumsy with a sword. =P

even with a hammerspace full of guns, it still seems dependent on her restocking between battles. given a long enough fight (or chain of fights), she very well could run out of ammo. particularly with the pipe bombs since she apparently makes them herself.
although, this whole problem could go away if we extend her power to be able to replicate anything that she previously put into her hammerspace.

Back in ep8, Kyubei said it was the second time Homura killed him.
So far, most of us have assumed that the shopping mall incident was the first time.
Yet, if we follow the events shown in ep10, Homura had to have killed Kyubei at least once in the 7 days prior to that.
Homura probably found out Kyubei had spare bodies in Timeline 4. Was she simply successful at hiding the fact that she was the killer until the attack at the mall?

those were kyubeis from different timelines. when he said it was the 2nd time, it was the 2nd time, in that timeline. he wouldn't have any knowledge of any kyubie slaughter in the previous loop. it wasn't even until that conversation that he concluded that she was from a different timeline.

[SagaraSouske]

@ninjaxanbu, time line 3 is when both Homura and Madoka killed WPN and only One grief seed left. Madoka used on Homura and then ask her to kill her before she turns witch, which Homura did with her gun. So what u described already occured and caused a reset.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

i think being clumsy with a pipebomb would be a bit more dangerous than being clumsy with a sword. =P

even with a hammerspace full of guns, it still seems dependent on her restocking between battles. given a long enough fight (or chain of fights), she very well could run out of ammo. particularly with the pipe bombs since she apparently makes them herself.
although, this whole problem could go away if we extend her power to be able to replicate anything that she previously put into her hammerspace.

In any case, Homura needs to protect herself as she likely needed to be alive in order to do a time reset. And it is a simple fact that melee is riskier than ranged combat. If you can choose between ranged or melee, and you want to say safe, ranged is the obvious choice. She just needs to bring enough ammo.

[Malkuth]

i think being clumsy with a pipebomb would be a bit more dangerous than being clumsy with a sword. =P

Not really, especially true blades in the hands of Naruto/Kenshin fans can be deadly :uhoh:

[kamyu]

In any case, Homura needs to protect herself as she likely needed to be alive in order to do a time reset. And it is a simple fact that melee is riskier than ranged combat. If you can choose between ranged or melee, and you want to say safe, ranged is the obvious choice. She just needs to bring enough ammo.

and thats the catch.
range being the safer option is a moot point if she runs out of ammo (however unlikely you decide that possibility to be).
if we are talking about trying to stay safe then it would still be better to err on the side of caution and store a backup weapon. what harm is there in storing one "just in case" sword/bat/whatever along with the mountain of guns/bombs?

Not really, especially true blades in the hands of Naruto/Kenshin fans can be deadly :uhoh:

consider how homura didn't even seem to consider the possible collateral damage of her pipe bombs until sayaka got pissed at her. ><

[neshru]

I see how this is gonna end now, Homura will find a way to keep the rest of the cast alive by sacrificing herself. The four of them together will kill that evil monster thing, and everyone will live happily ever after.

[FlavorOfLife]

After episode 10, i think the entire team makes a good first person shooter with the MS theme
Mami - Weak ranged (she keeps dying!) but can heal - Medic
Kyoko - Strongest melee, doesn't heal - Commando
Sayaka - Weak melee but self healing - Infantry
Madoka - Strong ranged - Sniper
Homura - Ranged plus bombs - Special Ops

[Klashikari]

i think being clumsy with a pipebomb would be a bit more dangerous than being clumsy with a sword. =P

even with a hammerspace full of guns, it still seems dependent on her restocking between battles. given a long enough fight (or chain of fights), she very wll could run out of ammo. particularly with the pipe bombs since she apparently makes them herself.
although, this whole problem could go away if we extend her power to be able to replicate anything that she previously put into her hammerspace.
She can trigger her pipe bombs so they explode at a specific time. If the pipe bombs were your casual handmade with fuse, that would definitely much more dangerous, but these are timed ones. But even so, since these aren't in contact with her when she threw them, they will -never- detonate as long time is frozen, therefore she cannot harm herself at all.
Using pipebombs isn't really difficult to beign with, but in Homura's case, it is even less risky than it should be.

This is a drastic different situation with a sword, since swinging it the wrong way can easily cut your own limbs, and there is nothing she can do aside of stopping time freeze in that kind of situation.
Furthermore, using a melee weapon not only require body coordination, but also strength, stamina, and leaves you to close range with your enemy. The way how she was swinging a plain golf club was a testament of how she is very poor at handling close combat weapons in general. So a sword would lead to a devastating result.

It is actually a very annoying trend in anime in general: melee weapons don't turn you into an invincible fighter, it is actually making you much more vulnerable than any type of approach possible.
Carrying a sword for sake of "backup weapon" is nothing close to a proper measure. It is in fact a false safety measure that would give more problem to someone not proficient at all with these. In fact, if you have space for a "back up weapon", you would rather pick even more pistols etc instead. The point of a hammerspace nullify completely the needs of a "backup weapon" to begin with.

Also remember that she didn't try to be a main attacker, but rather supporting Mami and Madoka, and then giving the potential killing blow. It isn't like the number of bombs was her main concern.
This is also the reason why Homura changed her approach when she decided to go rambo: she has to defeat witches alone, thus she took a complete arsenal for herself. Considering the hammerspace, it is very unlikely she would have any ammo shortage.

By the way, it is obvious she didn't measure the possible hazard with her explosives because Mami and Madoka are ranged.
Sayaka wasn't a default MG to begin with, and as far as we were shown, Homura isn't trigger happy at throwing explosives like bomberman. Sayaka was insecure, wasn't trusting her so pushed the subject at hand alongside.

[ac195]

well, that's one intricate puzzle Urobuchi has set out.

a case of "damned if you do and damned if you don't". Hopefully the solution will be a masterclass and not a cop out.

Lets see... 3 manga series planned during the early stages of production... lets not kid ourselves here, $$$$!!!

My money is on a cop out... you don't kill the golden goose. Then again if you do... you can always "Rebuild" it... haha :p

[Jimmy C]

those were kyubeis from different timelines. when he said it was the 2nd time, it was the 2nd time, in that timeline.

I know that. What I meant was, when Homura started Timeline 5, which is the series proper, she ought to have tried to kill Kyubei within days of the 16th when she was released from the hospital. Because Homura knows Madoka contracted a week before she entered Mitakihara Junior High. Therefore, the attempt in the shopping mall in ep1 should have been number 2 and the one in the park in ep8 would be number 3.

As for Timeline 4, which leads to the prolog in ep1. Homura kills Kyubei before he contracts Madoka. But we know he doesn't give up easy. So it must have been a shock for Homura to see another Kyubei show up for the first time.

[MartianMage]

Lets see... 3 manga series planned during the early stages of production... lets not kid ourselves here, $$$$!!!

My money is on a cop out... you don't kill the golden goose. Then again if you do... you can always "Rebuild" it... haha :p
Having a conclusive ending doesn't mean killing off the golden goose. Spin offs like Kazumi Magica can always be made in an alternate universe.

[novalysis]

Having a conclusive ending doesn't mean killing off the golden goose. Spin offs like Kazumi Magica can always be made in an alternate universe.

Given that Kyubey's race might be present on Multiple Planets , could it be that Humans have been seeded on numerous Worlds , and each World is essentially a Soul Farm ? In that case , the prospects are limitless- even more so if the Incubators are deliberately using and cultivating multiple time-lines as soul farms. Indeed , if Kyubey's race is harvesting numerous more alternate time-lines , the alternate continuities might very well may share the same Multi-Universal continuity as the anime continuities.

I also speculate that the Quota mentioned by Kyubey this episode is the amount of Entropy needed to be reversed before process of seeding humans reach a certain level of profitability . We might very well have Reserves. Unimaginable Billions of Worlds of humans where Mahou Shojos souls are being used as Entropy Free Energy sources. How's that from Grim Darkness?

[ThereminVox]

Homura didn't waste time in the hospital. And we don't know when Madoka made the contract after the first time.

Pretty much. They didn't spell it out, but given the timeline, we can pretty safely assume that Madoka doesn't contract until shortly after Homura wakes in the hospital. We even get a blink-and-miss-it shot of Homura's calendar each time. The first 3 timelines, they meet at school several days after Homura wakes, and Madoka is already contracted.

After Madoka asks Homura to save her from QB/herself, we get the transition from "Ho-moe" to "Homerun". She heals herself, presumably including her heart condition -- remember, in Ep01 she's an incredible athlete, and in the first timeline she can't even participate in gym -- and goes straight for QB, harassing him and preventing Madoka from meeting him until after her first day of school.

[Triple_R]

That's why I only said "a bit of a bitch". Yes, it's understandable. But still damn unpleasant. I can't bring myself to approve.

Oh, I don't approve of it either. Sayaka was in the wrong there, in more ways than one. It's just that I don't think that Sayaka is a horrible person, and I think that we should be careful to not read too much into her overly harsh response there.

In fairness, I do think that it makes Homura's coldness towards Sayaka in Timeline 5 more understandable as a result of Sayaka's attitude towards her in Timeline 3 though.




I also suspect - though I may be unkind, there - that part of Sayaka's reason for pushing Homura away is her own insecurity. Homura was a bit of a pushover personality-wise, but she her time stop ability was potentially very powerful. Sayaka, OTOH, is rather limited as a magical girl. I wonder if she realized that? And, subconsciously, turned against Homura out of resentment?

Jealousy could be a factor yeah. But I think that it's not basic power jealousy, but more a case of status jealousy. In the timeline where everyone becomes magical girls and work together as friends, Sayaka may have been jealous of how close Homura was getting with Madoka and/or Mami.

Believe me, as a guy with two younger sisters, teenage girls can be a bit possessive of their closest friends and resent other girls getting closer to them than they are. It's almost on par with romantic jealousy sometimes.


Agreed, Timeline 3 is the big hope spot for Homura, and it's also a tantalizing reward to the audience because it's a brief glimpse at the Magical Girl team you might have expected from the show going in. Then of course, it subverts the Higurashi ending, since even though the whole team is united, everything goes to pot anyway. The lesson Homura takes, right or wrong, is that she can neither save everyone, nor depend on anyone, and that trying to do so is a sucker's bet.

I can understand Homura's position there. Except that after Timeline 4 she should know that it's not likely that she can handle Walpurgis Night on her own. Keeping Kyoko alive probably should have been a major secondary goal for Homura in Episode 9.

But this is just a minor complaint, really. As I argued before, Homura's overall situation is a very tricky one.

[Cosmic Eagle]

You know....Homura dying may not be the biggest worry here....Homura finally falling and turning into a Witch would be far far worse because the chances increase with every repeat doesn't it? It's also inevitable since her despair would be building up over and over.

[Triple_R]

I am uncertain whether Homura is the true heroine of the story, or if she is making things worse by reverting time.

I've thought this a lot myself.

It's hard to see a perfect end here.

In Timeline 1, Madoka and Mami die saving the city from Walpurgis Night. They go out as great heroes, and also believing themselves to be that, blissfully ignorant of the most dark and distressing truths behind the magical girl role and system in this anime. Madoka and Mami never become world-shattering witches, which is obviously great for the rest of humanity.

Meanwhile, Kyoko and Sayaka are nowhere to be found, so it's possible that one or both of them led normal human lives in that timeline. It would certainly make things better for them.


While far from perfect, of course, and while still tragic, that's one of the better endings that can come from this horrifically messed up situations, in my opinion.

Every other timeline so far has had a worse ending.

[DragoZERO]

Except that's not what Homura said though, for next episode's title.

「最後に残った道しるべ」

Sounds like they just translated "最後に残った道". "道" and "道しるべ" are very different. The whole sentence should be "The last remaining guide(ance)".That's a pretty big difference. Thanks for clearing that up.

That's definitely Picasso, but after checking for a while, the pattern doesn't match perfectly Guernica (the eye portion doesn't match it at all).Copyrights perhaps? Haha. But it is an appropriate painting to be used for the situation. Kudos for that.

I can understand Homura's position there. Except that after Timeline 4 she should know that it's not likely that she can handle Walpurgis Night on her own. Keeping Kyoko alive probably should have been a major secondary goal for Homura in Episode 9.

But this is just a minor complaint, really. As I argued before, Homura's overall situation is a very tricky one.Madoka's safety was much more important and I think that's the only reason she let things unfold like that. I don't like it and don't agree with it, but that's what happened, so yeah.

[Anh_Minh]

Pretty much. They didn't spell it out, but given the timeline, we can pretty safely assume that Madoka doesn't contract until shortly after Homura wakes in the hospital. We even get a blink-and-miss-it shot of Homura's calendar each time. The first 3 timelines, they meet at school several days after Homura wakes, and Madoka is already contracted.

After Madoka asks Homura to save her from QB/herself, we get the transition from "Ho-moe" to "Homerun". She heals herself, presumably including her heart condition -- remember, in Ep01 she's an incredible athlete, and in the first timeline she can't even participate in gym -- and goes straight for QB, harassing him and preventing Madoka from meeting him until after her first day of school.

She didn't need to heal herself - becoming a magical girl took care of that. She stayed clumsy at first, but she had the same non-human body as everyone else. And by the time timeline 5 rolled around, she was an experienced magical girl who knew full well her own capacities.

[DragoZERO]

She didn't need to heal herself - becoming a magical girl took care of that. She stayed clumsy at first, but she had the same non-human body as everyone else. And by the time timeline 5 rolled around, she was an experienced magical girl who knew full well her own capacities.
I thought it was interesting how she was clumsy after becoming a magical girl. You'd expect her to be able to be agile and all from the get go.

[guuchan]

Back in ep8, Kyubei said it was the second time Homura killed him.
So far, most of us have assumed that the shopping mall incident was the first time.
Yet, if we follow the events shown in ep10, Homura had to have killed Kyubei at least once in the 7 days prior to that.
Homura probably found out Kyubei had spare bodies in Timeline 4. Was she simply successful at hiding the fact that she was the killer until the attack at the mall?

Eh, Kyuubee apparently didn't get killed in episode 1, if that's what you meant.

[Solace]

I thought it was interesting how she was clumsy after becoming a magical girl. You'd expect her to be able to be agile and all from the get go.

It's a matter of relearning the body. That's why rehabilitation programs exist for people who are recovering from severe injuries, the mind is still recalibrating how the healing/healed body is supposed to normally operate.

[Vanish]

Well, nothing really changed besides Madoka just remembering what happened the last time Walpurgis Night came in before Homura repeated time.

Yeah, that's what I meant. And to me, the actual changes in the timelines that get reset don't matter in the end, because... they will be reset. But there are persisting changes, like the memories of Madoka playing odd.

From reading your post, you seem to imply that Homura's power to "reset" to the 16th is not voluntary; it acts when one of two conditions are fulfilled. The first reset can be explained by Kyubey granting Homura's wish to redo her meeting of Madoka. Are you suggesting that Homura's wish had an implicit clause of "whenever Madoka turns into a Puella Magi or witch?"

If it was voluntary, she could reset the time whenever she wanted to. Whether the reset taints her SG or how much it gets tainted is up to air. I think it's not voluntary because each time she was sent back in time, Homura received a sudden shock like it was unexpected. Only in the last few timelines did she "get used" to the actual time reset.

In other words I think it's part of her wish. The content of her wish was to redo her meeting with Madoka and be able to protect her. You could say that's actually two wishes and therefore invalid but they both complement each other so it's ok. It's like wishing to be rich is one wish, but wishing to be rich and live on a luxury island sounds valid to me as well even though it's two things.

I haven't rechecked my post but if I said the reset will happen upon Madoka becoming MG, then I talked BS.What I mean is what triggers the reset is when Homura failed to protect Madoka, whether she dies as an MG or turns into a witch.

Now here's the tricky grain of salt. If wishes are absolute, and if (yes, it's merely my opinion but feel free to argue me) the protecting part is part of it, why won't it be fulfilled? My personal answer is: fate. That'd mean an ultimate fate can't be (easily) changed with a wish, which renders wishes not absolute.

Imagine if Sayaka wished for Kamijo's hand to heal, only for him to get involved in a car accident a day later and have his hand broken again. Or imagine Mami making a wish to get a second chance at life (however it was phrased) only to have an airplane crush on her at a later time. Or imagine Kyoko making people listen to her dad, but before you get to see any results of the wish her dad dies or a dangerous infection kills everyone so no one can listen to him anymore even if they would have done so according to the wish. I admit it's a bit rough arguing with fate, but keep in mind Kyubei also proposed to Homura that Madoka's fate can't be changed. I personally think it can be changed, but with a price and of course the effort.

Firstly, we see that in the second timeline, Homura says to Madoka that "I have become a Puella Magi too!" implying that Madoka is also a Puella Magi, and that Madoka contracted Kyubey before Homura arrived. Madoka is also a Puella Magi in the second and third timeline, so it is safe to say the very existence of magical girl Madoka does not trigger the time reversion. You may distinguish between that and the action of contracting to become a Puella Magi. If Madoka makes the contract after Homura arrives, then you suggest time will reset. That cannot be true either, as in the fourth timeline, Homura was seen talking to Kyubey after Madoka transformed into a Puella Magi and killed Walpurgi's Night.

I assume that time resets actually don't influence the timelines unless things are actively changed (in this case, by Homura doing things differently each time). That said, since Madoka in the current timeline has not become an MG, I also assume that Madoka never contracted before Homura woke up in the hospital.

Why is Madoka an MG in the original timeline? Well, that doesn't matter. You should ask: When did she become an MG? My answer: after more than one week after Homura arrived. Note how it was shown how Homura struggled through school. It's just an example but let's say Homura was attacked by the witch 2 weeks after she arrived. She was saved by Madoka, and then had a conversation where Madoka said that she only turned into an MG 1 week ago. So in other words 1 week after Homura transferred to Madoka's school, Madoka actually turned into an MG. The actual amount of days is up to air but the actual scenario that Madoka contracted after Homura's arrival would be thus explained. What supports this is that in one of the timelines (forgot which one) Homura was actually able to warn off Madoka to not accept an offer for a wish in case someone asked her.

Btw. if you say that the timelines are different each time, then we need to agree to disagree because I think that would explain everything and nothing.

And I'm aware that the reset can't happen when Homura is in a state where she can't do anything anymore, and it's also natural that each timeline will have a toll on her mind so I agree that she won't be able to do this forever. But let's just wait for the next episode, we will probably get an explicit solution according to the key line.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

i believe homura cannot control the reset. as mentioned it was part of the wish,triggering it once homura fails to protect madoka (she fails to do so since madoka always end up dying). i think unless she completely achieve her goal, she'll forever be trapped in an endless reset(whether she gives up her wish or not)

[Malkuth]

1st reset -> QB grants the wish
2nd reset -> ?????
3rd reset -> looked like she either controlled it or she was certain that it would happen
4th reset -> same as 3rd

[Demon Eyes]

So it does look like the energy QB needs is released when the soul gem transforms into a grief seed as per ep10. And I loved how after just thinking about it QB went and said that as long as he has his energy, he gives little to no concern about leaving humans to the fate of Witch Madoka.

Speaking of Witch Madoka, I really don't think we have actually seen the REAL witch Madoka! I mean that first humanoid thing we saw looked like a fetus of some sort.

If it is so, that would explain the latter form that looks like an onion or as I like to think of it, a cocoon!

Something is incubating something (No pun intended BTW) in that massive cocoon! I shudder to think of what was to come out of that thing! Too bad Homura didn't stick around to let us find out.

And finally, I produce a quandary I have had since Thursday. It's about Homura and her effect on the story!

Okay, I have read many thoughts about how Homura has made things worse by interfering but I have my doubts and it is not because I love the character.

Okay, let's say that Homura had been better off leaving Madoka to die a Hero in the first time line where magi Sayaka and Kyoko were no where to be seen. Then what of the big picture in the form of entropy? Madoka's soul gem not having turned into a grief seed means that QB didn't get the necessary energy needed. Care to think of how many more innocent girls would've been enough to fill Madoka's quota?! Judging from the butt licking QB was giving Madoka, I would assume there wouldn't be enough to fix the problem, thus even if not now, sooner the universe would've ended. Or are we saying that Homura's interference also created the entropy problem?

But Homura contracted and so we go into Time-line 2. In this time-line, Madoka turns witch but the Universe is saved (though no one knows of the entropy prob) and all the while having no more need for innocent sacrifices and seeing as normal weapons were shown to have an effect, the JSDF would've taken care of things before things got even more messed up. In the end only Madoka and a city (or two) are the victims in the second time line. but even in the first, the city was also messed up by WN so really, things almost balance out.

Moving on to the third, three more puella magi appear in the form of Mami, Sayaka and Kyoko. Well they die but assuming that they were normal girls in the original means that they died there as well with how the city looked after the battle with WN. So not much loss there yet. Madoka dies but she died as well in the original so things are still the same. The city is also gone but it was gone in the first as well. We discover QB true face (so to speak) in this time line. That is a a positive right there, right?

Enter the fourth time-line. Homura tries to tackle the problem she discovered in the third time-line alone but she fails anyway. Now no one can say she didn't try to save others. She managed to save the others from contracting and probably being killed by and as witches but in the end, Madoka contracts which ends in the same way as the second time line...almost.

Now we are in the fifth (assuming that there were no missed time lines) and what has happened so far has already happened in either of the previous time lines apart from Madoka not contracting and finally Madoka knows the true colors of QB and the truth of puella magi before she contracts which by the way would not be possible without the other time lines apart from the original.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Homura has done nothing wrong by her actions apart from torturing herself.

Thinking of the time lines showed us, there is no reason to blame Homura for not trying to save the other magi but Madoka. She tried to tell them the truth. They snapped. She tried to save them by taking on all witches by herself. If they hadn't contracted and were normal girls then they died along with the city during the battle with WN. In this one, she tried to save Mami. She got tied up. She tried to save Sayaka. She was dismissed. Things looked to work out with Kyoko. She sacrificed herself!

Let's not forget that Homura was not that close with the other girls to begin with.

I really don't see any reason to hold Homura on her decision of focusing on Madoka alone. Madoka, who was always on her side. Madoka, who gave up her life to save Homura.

And are we forgetting that one fought for ones own wishes alone? This is not Sailormoon or some other hero magical girl anime. The girls are not fighting for the world but themselves. In fact I think Homura is making a mistake trying to take on other responsibilities. Much good it has done her so far.

I wonder if there is a sane person who would take on the responsibility of saving the others when there is such a huge emotional impact that comes with. Isn't there a saying that if you can't save even one person you can't save anyone?

It is my belief that HomuHomu is innocent and that she made a good decision in contracting to fight fate.

Does anyone still think she made a mistake or that she made things worse?

[Wakan Tanka]

The WN has about 4 circles/halos around it....Do you think that they're related to the 2 yellow circles around QB?

[Vanish]

@Demon Eyes
Good post. I share the same view. But let me fix some minor things. Mami and Kyoko aren't normal girls in the original timelines, they're bound to be MGs because of their circumstances and the time they happened to contract. About Homura not really making thngs worse, I agree. The contract itself saved humanity, and the method / way to Homura's goal shouldn't be judged too harshly anyway because when she fails, time will reset at any rate. Taking the previous timelines apart can be interesting but doesn't really help much because those already lie in the past. Besides, it's really hard to analyze them when we are only shown key events. Btw. I also believe that Homura hasn't gone through the timelines more than was shown, but either can't be proven so I guess it's up in air.

[Jimmy C]

The content of her wish was to redo her meeting with Madoka and be able to protect her. You could say that's actually two wishes and therefore invalid but they both complement each other so it's ok.

Or you could say the second part is an explaination of the first part, which is the actual wish. I had something else to say, but when I thought of this, a terrifying thought occured to me.
If "I want to redo my meeting with Madoka." is the only part that is considered her wish, then she's doomed to repeat these days even if she succeeds in saving Madoka. As you can see in the episode, she doesn't immediately jump after Madoka becomes a witch. We've been thinking of various criteria, what if the only criteria is she jumps at the moment in time she made the wish in the original timeline?

You should ask: When did she become an MG? My answer: after more than one week after Homura arrived.
What supports this is that in one of the timelines (forgot which one) Homura was actually able to warn off Madoka to not accept an offer for a wish in case someone asked her.

You are assuming Homura couldn't do anything before she got into Mitakihara Junior High. You are wrong.
Madoka herself said it, she had been an MG barely a week on March 25th. That means she contracted with Kyubei around the 18th. Homura was released from the hospital on the 16th, if she went to work right away (as she did beginning with the fourth timeline) she had at least two days to shadow Madoka and intercept Kyubei before he makes contact with Madoka. That's why Madoka wasn't already a magical girl in the 4th and 5th timelines when Homura entered Mitakihara Junior High on the 25th. Because Homura worked to make sure things happened that way.

[Deconstructor]

Oh, so there was a misunderstanding.

If it was voluntary, she could reset the time whenever she wanted to. Whether the reset taints her SG or how much it gets tainted is up to air. I think it's not voluntary because each time she was sent back in time, Homura received a sudden shock like it was unexpected. Only in the last few timelines did she "get used" to the actual time reset.

Heh, you really are towing the line with qualitative evidence... I imagine anyone travelling through time for the first time would feel a sudden shock, regardless if they wanted to or not.

In other words I think it's part of her wish. The content of her wish was to redo her meeting with Madoka and be able to protect her. You could say that's actually two wishes and therefore invalid but they both complement each other so it's ok. It's like wishing to be rich is one wish, but wishing to be rich and live on a luxury island sounds valid to me as well even though it's two things.

The way I see it, only the first part of that wish is true: Homura wanted to redo her meeting with Madoka. The second part, which is Homura's wish to protect Madoka, did not count as part of the contract. As you say, I think the first wish was granted. If Homura's wish to protect Madoka was also granted, then how does this explain Madoka turning into a witch in the second timeline and Madoka dying in the third timeline?

You can argue that the "true" timeline, which has yet to appear, has Homura succeeding in her efforts to protect Madoka. This cannot be refuted yet... but I doubt the second wish was granted.

I haven't rechecked my post but if I said the reset will happen upon Madoka becoming MG, then I talked BS.What I mean is what triggers the reset is when Homura failed to protect Madoka, whether she dies as an MG or turns into a witch.

This is more reasonable than what you were initially proposing, but I still have a problem.

In the fourth timeline, Madoka became a Puella Magi and killed Walpurgi's Night in one hit. I assume that Madoka did not die or turn into a witch immediately afterward, as Kyubey says the following: "Now there's nothing left for her but to become the most evil witch ever." This implies that Madoka is alive and still a Puella Magi. Not to mention the Grief Seed from Walpurgi's Night should be massive (if they drop one at all). In the same timeline, Homura herself says "Repeat" which suggests to me that she has control over the time reset.

Now here's the tricky grain of salt. If wishes are absolute, and if (yes, it's merely my opinion but feel free to argue me) the protecting part is part of it, why won't it be fulfilled? My personal answer is: fate. That'd mean an ultimate fate can't be (easily) changed with a wish, which renders wishes not absolute.

Imagine if Sayaka wished for Kamijo's hand to heal, only for him to get involved in a car accident a day later and have his hand broken again. Or imagine Mami making a wish to get a second chance at life (however it was phrased) only to have an airplane crush on her at a later time. Or imagine Kyoko making people listen to her dad, but before you get to see any results of the wish her dad dies or a dangerous infection kills everyone so no one can listen to him anymore even if they would have done so according to the wish. I admit it's a bit rough arguing with fate, but keep in mind Kyubei also proposed to Homura that Madoka's fate can't be changed. I personally think it can be changed, but with a price and of course the effort.

Your belief that Kyubey cannot change a person's ultimate fate is interesting, but I disagree. Firstly, Madoka turns into a witch in the second timeline, while dying in the third. That suggests that one's ultimate fate can be changed by wishes.

Personally, I think Kyubey can only grant wishes within his power. Kyubey's entire motive for granting wishes was to collect the resultant happy energy from the wisher. That suggests to me that if Kyubey could change reality, he would have no need to go through this tedious process just to fix the universe (if that is actually his true goal). Before episode 9, all of the wishes were somewhat plausible in the real world - saving a critically wounded girl from a car crash, healing a previously thought incurable disability, and hypnotizing a group of people to listen.

Homura's wish to go back in time is the flaw in my interpretation. Going back in time is freaking impossible. I hesitate to suggest that Kyubey's hyper-advanced race has the ability to go back in time, but it is possible.

I assume that time resets actually don't influence the timelines unless things are actively changed (in this case, by Homura doing things differently each time). That said, since Madoka in the current timeline has not become an MG, I also assume that Madoka never contracted before Homura woke up in the hospital.

I agree that there is enough time between the exact moment Homura returns and the moment Madoka (would have) contracts with Kyubey. You missed a post I made after the large one.

[Raiga]

In the fourth timeline, Madoka became a Puella Magi and killed Walpurgi's Night in one hit. I assume that Madoka did not die or turn into a witch immediately afterward, as Kyubey says the following: "Now there's nothing left for her but to become the most evil witch ever." This implies that Madoka is alive and still a Puella Magi. Not to mention the Grief Seed from Walpurgi's Night should be massive (if they drop one at all). In the same timeline, Homura herself says "Repeat" which suggests to me that she has control over the time reset.

It could be that she doesn't have direct control, but since the wish sort of depends on her own thoughts (i.e. time will reset if, from her point of view, she has failed to protect Madoka) it could be that time resets the moment she concludes in her head, "I wasn't able to protect her this time."

Thus the reset surprised her the first few times but in later loops she realized what triggered it and thus gained a degree of control.

As for the part where she says "repeat," it wasn't a command or anything. Assuming you mean where she says 繰り返す that was just a plain form verb, "(I will) repeat (this cycle, however many times etc.)."

[Misaka of Misaka]

I would like to give "Perfect 10" to this episode.
The story is going on as some of us predicted in advance.
However, it is very impressive and convincing.
In addition, it has become clear that the opening song describes Homura's emotion well.
This is the reason why I evaluate this episode highly. :)

I am afraid that Homura will never be saved because she cannnot change the fact that she has already become Puella Magi by herself. :(

[Vanish]

Or you could say the second part is an explaination of the first part, which is the actual wish. I had something else to say, but when I thought of this, a terrifying thought occured to me.
If "I want to redo my meeting with Madoka." is the only part that is considered her wish, then she's doomed to repeat these days even if she succeeds in saving Madoka. As you can see in the episode, she doesn't immediately jump after Madoka becomes a witch. We've been thinking of various criteria, what if the only criteria is she jumps at the moment in time she made the wish in the original timeline?

That's a possible revelation but it's not too probable seeing as how that would render all of Homura's effort was for nothing. And I assume there's not an absolute point where the time will reset, but I believe it will happen sometime during the manifestation of witch Madoka. I'd personally deem it nitpicking if people said "oh but she still held a conversation with Kyubei" wheras that was really very short. Besides, the first time Madoka turned into a witch the reset also didn't occur immediately, Homura had time to ask herself "What? Why?" etc. It's like questioning why anime characters can still have a long conversation after their heart was ripped away even though the villains immediately drop dead when they are shot or something.

That Kyubei couldn't finish his sentence while talking to Homura can also support that the time reset isn't voluntary.

You are assuming Homura couldn't do anything before she got into Mitakihara Junior High. You are wrong.
Madoka herself said it, she had been an MG barely a week on March 25th. That means she contracted with Kyubei around the 18th. Homura was released from the hospital on the 16th, if she went to work right away (as she did beginning with the fourth timeline) she had at least two days to shadow Madoka and intercept Kyubei before he makes contact with Madoka. That's why Madoka wasn't already a magical girl in the 4th and 5th timelines when Homura entered Mitakihara Junior High on the 25th. Because Homura worked to make sure things happened that way.

How am I assuming that? Btw. the time where Homura warned Madoka in the evening in front of her window, Madoka already knew Homura meaning that was after Homura transferred. But you're right about the dates and all, thanks for pointing out.


Heh, you really are towing the line with qualitative evidence... I imagine anyone travelling through time for the first time would feel a sudden shock, regardless if they wanted to or not.

I know it's not the best evidence but I can only work with something that's there, even if not much. :p And yeah you have a point, both explanations are plausible to me, I just prefer the one I mentioned.

The way I see it, only the first part of that wish is true: Homura wanted to redo her meeting with Madoka. The second part, which is Homura's wish to protect Madoka, did not count as part of the contract. As you say, I think the first wish was granted. If Homura's wish to protect Madoka was also granted, then how does this explain Madoka turning into a witch in the second timeline and Madoka dying in the third timeline?

Well, that's a valid view but then you assume that she can reset time voluntarily, which means she can choose when she wants to reset time. And if she can, why does it need to be the 16th? If she is so powerful she can just reset time, why choose always the same date? Or why not only reset time a bit, for example to save everyone? Reset the time so she can dodge Mami's binds the next time, or so she immediately comes to rescue Madoka so Sayaka won't turn into an MG.

You can argue that the "true" timeline, which has yet to appear, has Homura succeeding in her efforts to protect Madoka. This cannot be refuted yet... but I doubt the second wish was granted.

Exactly, the wish wasn't granted because protecting someone isn't an ultimate state but a proccess. That proccess however clashes with the one of Madoka's fate which Kyubei mentioned before.

In the fourth timeline, Madoka became a Puella Magi and killed Walpurgi's Night in one hit. I assume that Madoka did not die or turn into a witch immediately afterward, as Kyubey says the following: "Now there's nothing left for her but to become the most evil witch ever." This implies that Madoka is alive and still a Puella Magi. Not to mention the Grief Seed from Walpurgi's Night should be massive (if they drop one at all). In the same timeline, Homura herself says "Repeat" which suggests to me that she has control over the time reset.

No, that black tornado thing is a to-be version of witch Madoka, it's about to manifest. The one-hit thing can be imo compared to Kyoko's one-hit move to defeat witch Sayaka, with the difference that Madoka didn't involve herself in the attack that was used to defeat WPN or else she would have died. And yeah, it's up to the air if WPN drops a Grief Seed.

Your belief that Kyubey cannot change a person's ultimate fate is interesting, but I disagree. Firstly, Madoka turns into a witch in the second timeline, while dying in the third. That suggests that one's ultimate fate can be changed by wishes.

Well, depends on how you define fate. In this case I meant the fact that Madoka turns into an MG. So far, she did so in every timeline except the current one. The stuff about time reset and failing etc. is more about Homura's fate, which she can obviously change, but only by making the effort and all. So I guess both fates influence each other, but so far the results were similarly bad.

Personally, I think Kyubey can only grant wishes within his power. Kyubey's entire motive for granting wishes was to collect the resultant happy energy from the wisher. That suggests to me that if Kyubey could change reality, he would have no need to go through this tedious process just to fix the universe (if that is actually his true goal). Before episode 9, all of the wishes were somewhat plausible in the real world - saving a critically wounded girl from a car crash, healing a previously thought incurable disability, and hypnotizing a group of people to listen.

Let me skip this part because I don't like to discuss what can be done with wishes as they're either hit or miss until confirmed, and I have my doubts that we'll get a confirmation.

Homura's wish to go back in time is the flaw in my interpretation. Going back in time is freaking impossible. I hesitate to suggest that Kyubey's hyper-advanced race has the ability to go back in time, but it is possible.

It's very naive for me to say but I just accept the wish she made as a fact with the underlying theme that nothing is impossible. Speculations about how and why is just catching things in air imo but yeah I guess the technology stuff isn't impossible either.

I agree that there is enough time between the exact moment Homura returns and the moment Madoka (would have) contracts with Kyubey. You missed a post I made after the large one.

Yeah, probably.:heh: Having 5 more pages after my last post made me skip many, heh.

[Tom Bombadil]

I　was so sure that Homura's wish was that Madoka forget about her. But I guess time travel is fine, too.

By the way, the math problem they are doing is quite interesting.

Let p be a prime. Show that (n+1)^p-n^p-1 is divisible by p for any integer n. I thought they are in junior high.

Edit: since Kyubei has collected a lot of energy. Can't they just use it to restore everything at the end?

[kk2extreme]

^they are in high school

[CainSonozaki]

My question is, what is Kyokou doing there if no ones died?

[Vanish]

I honestly think the unique questions that can be asked regarding the past timelines will never be answered as they ultimately don't matter. It's just grabbing things in air, there's many openings for speculations because only key events were shown that represent Homura's crappy past. As for Kyoko, I guess it could be that she wanted to check out what's up with 4 MGs within the same territory. She's pretty carefree so maybe she went there out of curiousity and then ended up meeting Sayaka and the rest.

[Proto]

Fun fact:

From 10 we know that Kyoko's soul gem is located on her chest. However when she self sacrificed in 9 she destroyed a gem that she was using as a hairpin.

Does this mean....?!

[CrowKenobi]

More like put her soul gem on the hairpin and threw it grenade-style so that the self-destruct would be more effective... :uhoh:

[Malkuth]

Any theory yet about these small differences between iterations :confused:

[felix]

Any theory yet about these small differences between iterations :confused:It's all because of Hamura. Basically any move she makes has consequences. If she just looks differently even with out saying a word it will have consequences.

Also, I think the simplest way to solve the problem is to get Madoka on the other side of the world and wait for other "unlikely to become doom-witches" MGs to solve the wulpurugis night thing. Or, convince someone to somehow make a wish with QB that would save them from his kind. Though personally I think Witch-Madoka is actually a universe destroyer rather then a world destroyer and QB are just too arrogant to realize it.

[ThereminVox]

More like put her soul gem on the hairpin and threw it grenade-style so that the self-destruct would be more effective... :uhoh:

CrowKenobi's explained it best. But for reference, there's this image from the Wiki showing it in close detail (http://wiki.puella-magi.net/File:Melusine_hairpin_key_2.png). It also shows that when combined, the hairpin and soul gem, look a lot like something we saw in episode 7.

[Anh_Minh]

Well, that's a valid view but then you assume that she can reset time voluntarily, which means she can choose when she wants to reset time. And if she can, why does it need to be the 16th? If she is so powerful she can just reset time, why choose always the same date? Or why not only reset time a bit, for example to save everyone? Reset the time so she can dodge Mami's binds the next time, or so she immediately comes to rescue Madoka so Sayaka won't turn into an MG.


I think she chooses when she resets, but she's stuck resetting to the 16th.

As for her confusion on waking up, isn't that normal? Few people become fully awake instantaneously. And after a particularly vivid dream, it takes a bit of time to sort out what was a dream, and what was memories. Especially if what you remember is becoming a magical girl and traveling back in time, I suppose...

[Key Board]

I'm not a radical environmentalist misanthrope or a religious doomsayer or someone who spends most of his time complaining about life on his blog or facebook

But if I were, I would agree with QB's mindset and sacrifice humanity

[felix]

But if I were, I would agree with QB's mindset and sacrifice humanityIf you were not human you mean…

[Key Board]

If you were not human you mean…

Well. as I said.. even now there are humans who think all humans should be wiped out and the enviroment will magically become paradise

There are also religious doomsayers who think mankind have "sinned" too much and must also be wiped out for the good of the universe. Because obviously humans are the only predatory lifeform in the universe. Everyone else is a utopian socialist vegan that can fart our clean inexhaustible energy.

and there are just people who hate the world and want to see it burn

All of these people are human

[kaigan]

The way I see it, only the first part of that wish is true: Homura wanted to redo her meeting with Madoka. The second part, which is Homura's wish to protect Madoka, did not count as part of the contract. As you say, I think the first wish was granted. If Homura's wish to protect Madoka was also granted, then how does this explain Madoka turning into a witch in the second timeline and Madoka dying in the third timeline?


my take on this is that homura-chan's wish, the "1st" and "2nd" parts are one. if the wish is simply to "redo her meeting with madoka" then it ends immediately right there. the first "reset" should be enough though. wish fulfilled. but it did not explain how homura could take multiple times resetting. i could assume that a condition is not yet fully satisfied hence the "2nd part" comes in - "to protect madoka instead of madoka protecting me (homura)."

madoka's death or evolution into a witch supports further that homura's wish is not yet fulfilled. because she failed the protecting part/hanging clause. if a simply one "reset" is just the wish then the various timelines should not happen at all.

in another note, should we not thank QB for his "generosity" for this to happen multiple times? :confused:

[Vanish]

I think she chooses when she resets, but she's stuck resetting to the 16th.

As for her confusion on waking up, isn't that normal? Few people become fully awake instantaneously. And after a particularly vivid dream, it takes a bit of time to sort out what was a dream, and what was memories. Especially if what you remember is becoming a magical girl and traveling back in time, I suppose...

Like I said, that's also a valid view.

my take on this is that homura-chan's wish, the "1st" and "2nd" parts are one. if the wish is simply to "redo her meeting with madoka" then it ends immediately right there. the first "reset" should be enough though. wish fulfilled. but it did not explain how homura could take multiple times resetting. i could assume that a condition is not yet fully satisfied hence the "2nd part" comes in - "to protect madoka instead of madoka protecting me (homura)."

madoka's death or evolution into a witch supports further that homura's wish is not yet fulfilled. because she failed the protecting part/hanging clause. if a simply one "reset" is just the wish then the various timelines should not happen at all.

Which leaves us to wonder how the wish is supposed to work because so far all wishes we've seen had an absolute effect. But if the "2nd part" of the wish is not granted, then didn't Kyubei make an epic-fail contract?

[Xellos-_^]

Like I said, that's also a valid view.



Which leaves us to wonder how the wish is supposed to work because so far all wishes we've seen had an absolute effect. But if the "2nd part" of the wish is not granted, then didn't Kyubei make an epic-fail contract?

as others said, if homura is kill then the reset stops.

[NutShell]

sory is episode 11 delayed 2 week ?

[aeriolewinters]

just days maybe...

[yuubu]

hm i have question, but i do not know if i am misunderstanding something.

To stop the timetravels Madoka has to be saved. And it doesn’t matter if Homura dies doing that. Then one solution to defeat Walpurgis and have a semi-happy end without defeating the mg-witch system would be: Madoka+Homura defeat Walpurgis and Homura kills herself before Madoka is able to purify her Gem. Madoka would be sad, but would purify her own gem because she does not want to become a witch.

If Madoka really is powerful she should be able to defeat other smaller witches and purify her gem again. That doesn’t stop QB from making new witches, but eventually he has collected enough energy and leaves earth. Eventually all witches are defeated by Madoka and with enough Energy left not to become a witch, the mg-witch system is at its end and the world goes on. Not really a happy end, but a possible? Could this be a solution or am i totally wrong ?

Question: Does the Walpurigs night witch not drop a Grief Seed? In one timeline Madoka uses a Grief Seed with unknown origin for purifying Homura's soul gem.

thx, i just registered only for this post :)

[Xellos-_^]

hm i have question, but i do not know if i am misunderstanding something.

To stop the timetravels Madoka has to be saved. And it doesn’t matter if Homura dies doing that. Then one solution to defeat Walpurgis and have a semi-happy end without defeating the mg-witch system would be: Madoka+Homura defeat Walpurgis and Homura kills herself before Madoka is able to purify her Gem. Madoka would be sad, but would purify her own gem because she does not want to become a witch.

If Madoka really is powerful she should be able to defeat other smaller witches and purify her gem again. That doesn’t stop QB from making new witches, but eventually he has collected enough energy and leaves earth. Eventually all witches are defeated by Madoka and with enough Energy left not to become a witch, the mg-witch system is at its end and the world goes on. Not really a happy end, but a possible? Could this be a solution or am i totally wrong ?

Question: Does the Walpurigs night witch not drop a Grief Seed? In one timeline Madoka uses a Grief Seed with unknown origin for purifying Homura's soul gem.

thx, i just registered only for this post :)

Madoka ask Homura to stop her form making a contract with QB. So even if Madoka beats WN without turning into a witch, it is still consider a lost.

[felix]

Yeah, as long as she's MG she'll turn into a witch eventually. So if by any chance Madoka turns into a MG in the next episodes it's BAD END.

[Zippicus]

as others said, if homura is kill then the reset stops.

And like others have said in reply to that, we don't really know if that's the case or not as the only direct evidence we could have of that is to see Homura die and observe what happens, which hasn't happend.

The only way we might be able to extrapolate something like that would be to see what happened with Kyosuke's hand after Sayaka bought the farm, which they also didn't show. Even then that might not be conclusive.

[yuubu]

Yeah, as long as she's MG she'll turn into a witch eventually. So if by any chance Madoka turns into a MG in the next episodes it's BAD END.

you say she will eventually turn into a witch. But is that for sure?
If a MS does not use her Power, will she turn into a witch? I thought the soul gem gets tainted only by using magical powers.

Edit: But you are right. Perhaps being "alive" in this strange form with a robot-like body consumes energy itself.

[Vanish]

as others said, if homura is kill then the reset stops.

I meant the part about "I want to be the one to protect her". Sigh, I guess for easyness' sake it's better to assume that only the re-meeting is part of the wish, and that she can voluntarily reset time. I thought it'd be more thrilling if Homura's the controlled one rather than the one to control. And as Zippicus already said, we won't know until shown so it currently doesn't matter.

[CrowKenobi]

Yeah, as long as she's MG she'll turn into a witch eventually. So if by any chance Madoka turns into a MG in the next episodes it's BAD END.Only if she's a Kyubei contracted magical girl...

If she becomes a magical girl without Kyubei being involved with it, then mission accomplished! :D

[kamyu]

I thought it was interesting how she was clumsy after becoming a magical girl. You'd expect her to be able to be agile and all from the get go.

it is very likely that she didn't know about the whole zombie body thing yet.
as we saw with sayaka and pain suppression, consciously knowing that fact has a dramatic affect on how quickly one can learn to control the body.

The WN has about 4 circles/halos around it....Do you think that they're related to the 2 yellow circles around QB?

crack theory: WN is actually another (related?) alien species that disagrees with kyubie's methods and is trying to (violently) put a stop to it. WN is the good guy. XD


She can trigger her pipe bombs so they explode at a specific time. If the pipe bombs were your casual handmade with fuse, that would definitely much more dangerous, but these are timed ones. But even so, since these aren't in contact with her when she threw them, they will -never- detonate as long time is frozen, therefore she cannot harm herself at all.
Using pipebombs isn't really difficult to beign with, but in Homura's case, it is even less risky than it should be.

putting aside the fact that a fuse IS a timer, these are homemade pipe bombs. homemade explosives aren't something you would generally call stable or safe. she was tripping all over herself when running with the bomb the first time. trip, slam it on the ground, boom, dead.

also, that first use of the bomb actually created a contradiction with her power. the bomb kept going up the witch's skirt after she threw it even though time was still stopped.

Carrying a sword for sake of "backup weapon" is nothing close to a proper measure. It is in fact a false safety measure that would give more problem to someone not proficient at all with these. In fact, if you have space for a "back up weapon", you would rather pick even more pistols etc instead. The point of a hammerspace nullify completely the needs of a "backup weapon" to begin with.

once again, ammo. unless her power is to replicate whatever she stored, then she would have to restock between battles which leaves the possibility to run out. it would simply be prudent to have a backup weapon (doesn't have to be a sword) since storage space isn't a problem anyway.


you say she will eventually turn into a witch. But is that for sure?
If a MS does not use her Power, will she turn into a witch? I thought the soul gem gets tainted only by using magical powers.

Edit: But you are right. Perhaps being "alive" in this strange form with a robot-like body consumes energy itself.

your edit is correct. it was explicitly stated at one point that simply manipulating their zombie bodies caused a drain on their powers.

[Xellos-_^]

Only if she's a Kyubei contracted magical girl...

If she becomes a magical girl without Kyubei being involved with it, then mission accomplished! :D

1. no one knows if you can actually become a MG without QB's help

2. could very well be that the natural end product of a MG is a witch. The QB didn't create the process so much as exploiting it.

you say she will eventually turn into a witch. But is that for sure?
If a MS does not use her Power, will she turn into a witch? I thought the soul gem gets tainted only by using magical powers.

Edit: But you are right. Perhaps being "alive" in this strange form with a robot-like body consumes energy itself.

Sayaka's gem wasn't completely dark but she turn into a witch anyway. it isn't just using magic that turns a MG into witch but also emotional and Mental health of the MG.

[Crontica]

Is it possible to lock QB out of contracting Madoka by contracting her with someone else? WN night or no WN night thats the main problem of this show.

[Xellos-_^]

Is it possible to lock QB out of contracting Madoka by contracting her with someone else? WN night or no WN night thats the main problem of this show.
unless there is another alien race around making MG, QB is it.

[Crontica]

Hmmmmm.. If Madoka regains her memory then she will remember that she already made a contract with QB then it will become void causing a potential soul loophole?

[Vanish]

crack theory: WN is actually another (related?) alien species that disagrees with kyubie's methods and is trying to (violently) put a stop to it. WN is the good guy. XD

WPN being Kyubei's enemy wouldn't change smut. It still ends up devastating a whole city so it's an enemy anyway.

also, that first use of the bomb actually created a contradiction with her power. the bomb kept going up the witch's skirt after she threw it even though time was still stopped.

Meh, details. But I'll have a shot. Maybe as long as Homura's throw force was applied it kept flying.

once again, ammo. unless her power is to replicate whatever she stored, then she would have to restock between battles which leaves the possibility to run out. it would simply be prudent to have a backup weapon (doesn't have to be a sword) since storage space isn't a problem anyway.

Both are plausible. She might be able to reset her arsenal's state, or she actually restocks. About the backup weapon, I guess it's a good idea but then again she is physically weak compared to others and you saw her melee skills (which she never improved since she started using bombs). And we don't know if there's a limit to her storage, and it is bad to have too much of a choice because keeping your arsenal simple allows you to pick faster. Btw. so far she never really needed a close-range weapon.

1. no one knows if you can actually become a MG without QB's help

2. could very well be that the natural end product of a MG is a witch. The QB didn't create the process so much as exploiting it.

He didn't state that as fact, it's a valid speculation. About Kyubei, it's just a parasite-relationship between him and humanity. Without him, people can't defend against witches (which have an unknown origin) because there won't be MGs (unless there's a way to turn into MG / get rid of witches without contracting him). But because he is there, little girls will receive a crappy fate and even add to the witch problem.

Sayaka's gem wasn't completely dark but she turn into a witch anyway. it isn't just using magic that turns a MG into witch but also emotional and Mental health of the MG.

I say it's just the animation. Fact is it already crackled, and Sayaka's tear gave it the rest because as seen from episode 10, physical contact is able to shatter the SG. Emotional negativity is only a catalysator.

[PastPrime]

Given Madoka's thinking it was a dream when she woke up at the beginning, just like Homura at the start of the second timeline until she saw the soul crystal, I suspect that Homura has been bringing Madoka back with her every time, as in she wanted to protect THAT Madoka. Only, like in "Endless Eight," Madoka only remembers bits and pieces. That is why she is much less self confident now and why she has such potential. All of her experiences as a Magical Girl, dieing, and turning into a witch, have boosted her power. If she can regain her memories of all the Timelines perhaps she will have to power end the Magical Girl cycle and, perhaps, reset things. Or else the story will end with her dieing or becomming a witch and Homura going back in time again.

[Xellos-_^]

Both are plausible. She might be able to reset her arsenal's state, or she actually restocks. About the backup weapon, I guess it's a good idea but then again she is physically weak compared to others and you saw her melee skills (which she never improved since she started using bombs). And we don't know if there's a limit to her storage, and it is bad to have too much of a choice because keeping your arsenal simple allows you to pick faster. Btw. so far she never really needed a close-range weapon.



we don't know how many loops Homura has been through already and since like you said we never seen her use a close range weapon we don't know how good or bad she actually is with a sword.

[Klashikari]

putting aside the fact that a fuse IS a timer, these are homemade pipe bombs. homemade explosives aren't something you would generally call stable or safe. she was tripping all over herself when running with the bomb the first time. trip, slam it on the ground, boom, dead.A timer is much more practical and reliable than a fuse. A fuse by itself can be lit faster or slower than expected, depending of the quality of the fuse itself (I would rather trust a timer than a fuse that can turn into a dud).
Pipebombs by themselves are easy to craft to the point that any idiot can make them, and they are arguably not unstable, unless you use exotic type of explosive instead of powder.
Finally, because it is a timer that require a trigger, it makes any tripping accident less hazardous, than tripping on yourself and cutting/gouging yourself (plus the weight is substancially different). That's why I've put emphasis on the timer. Of course, it doesn't mean there is no risk for her to literally slam the trigger on the ground, but there is no way for it to explode during the time stop should she let the bomb go, so it is perfectly safe for her).
also, that first use of the bomb actually created a contradiction with her power. the bomb kept going up the witch's skirt after she threw it even though time was still stopped.As suggested by the other scenes, the time for objects isn't instantly frozen when they no longer are connected to Homura (it is actually more evident with her bullets: she was close enough with Sayaka's wheels, so they reached that far, while bullets of her machine guns were a far from the cage witch).
If they were really frozen solid, Homura wouldn't be able to deal even a single dent to that oil can with her golf club then, considering it would be imperious to any force during time stop.
once again, ammo. unless her power is to replicate whatever she stored, then she would have to restock between battles which leaves the possibility to run out. it would simply be prudent to have a backup weapon (doesn't have to be a sword) since storage space isn't a problem anyway.If we consider Homura pre timeline 3, that's out of question for practical use, as I explained before.
Homura post timeline 3 has an ENTIRE arsenal at her disposal. It is unthinkable to run out of ammo, unless she defeat legions of witches by herself.
And again, unlike Sayaka and Kyoko, Homura doesn't have any special abilities that would make a melee approach safer (she doesn't have any notable strength enhancement, acceleration etc).
I see where you think it is prudent, but instead, I rather see it utterly pointless due to the context, that's all (especially that she never needed such kind of weapon).

[Crontica]

PastPrime you're brilliant!

[Vanish]

we don't know how many loops Homura has been through already and since like you said we never seen her use a close range weapon we don't know how good or bad she actually is with a sword.

She's been through at least 4, and it's best to work with what we have. She never needed it but she used it before. See golf club vs oil can.

[Xellos-_^]

She's been through at least 4, and it's best to work with what we have. She never needed it but she used it before. See golf club vs oil can.
that was loop #1, she gets a pass on that one.

[Crontica]

If Homura must have a backup weapon only a Wolverine style blade will be helpful, any other melee weapon will be a nuisance to her time stop, even then if the enemy grabs a hold of the blade she's a sitting duck.

[Anh_Minh]

A timer is much more practical and reliable than a fuse. A fuse by itself can be lit faster or slower than expected, depending of the quality of the fuse itself (I would rather trust a timer than a fuse that can turn into a dud).
Pipebombs by themselves are easy to craft to the point that any idiot can make them, and they are arguably not unstable, unless you use exotic type of explosive instead of powder.
Finally, because it is a timer that require a trigger, it makes any tripping accident less hazardous, than tripping on yourself and cutting/gouging yourself (plus the weight is substancially different). That's why I've put emphasis on the timer. Of course, it doesn't mean there is no risk for her to literally slam the trigger on the ground, but there is no way for it to explode during the time stop should she let the bomb go, so it is perfectly safe for her).
It's not a timer, it's a remote.


Homura post timeline 3 has an ENTIRE arsenal at her disposal. It is unthinkable to run out of ammo, unless she defeat legions of witches by herself.

Indeed. If she can't do it with her ammo, she probably can't do it at all. She'll run out of stamina before she runs out of bullets.

[Klashikari]

A remote...? I'm pretty certain she always activate some sort of trigger on the pipe bombs themselves and only afterwards, it will explode after a certain period of time (against patricia, she bumps the upper trigger of the pipebomb before throwing it. Against Sayaka, she does the same while apologizing during the time stop, then only afterwards, we got the explosions) .
But if it is really a remote, that makes the risk even less present in the end, all the better.

[kamyu]

A timer is much more practical and reliable than a fuse. A fuse by itself can be lit faster or slower than expected, depending of the quality of the fuse itself (I would rather trust a timer than a fuse that can turn into a dud).
Pipebombs by themselves are easy to craft to the point that any idiot can make them, and they are arguably not unstable, unless you use exotic type of explosive instead of powder.
Finally, because it is a timer that require a trigger, it makes any tripping accident less hazardous, than tripping on yourself and cutting/gouging yourself (plus the weight is substancially different). That's why I've put emphasis on the timer. Of course, it doesn't mean there is no risk for her to literally slam the trigger on the ground, but there is no way for it to explode during the time stop should she let the bomb go, so it is perfectly safe for her).

fuses are specifically designed to have predictable burn times. to not consider fuses as timers is like saying a clock is only a clock if it has a digital display.
she is shown literally making the bomb by following directions from the internet. that is basically the definition of unsafe (the roll of duct tape with her bomb parts is pretty funny too).

As suggested by the other scenes, the time for objects isn't instantly frozen when they no longer are connected to Homura (it is actually more evident with her bullets: she was close enough with Sayaka's wheels, so they reached that far, while bullets of her machine guns were a far from the cage witch).
If they were really frozen solid, Homura wouldn't be able to deal even a single dent to that oil can with her golf club then, considering it would be imperious to any force during time stop.

i never said they should be instantly frozen. if anything, the bullets just prove the inconsistency. bullets, with all the speed and force that they are fired with, only make it a few feet before freezing. her bomb, simply thrown, went a LOT further.

If we consider Homura pre timeline 3, that's out of question for practical use, as I explained before.
Homura post timeline 3 has an ENTIRE arsenal at her disposal. It is unthinkable to run out of ammo, unless she defeat legions of witches by herself.
And again, unlike Sayaka and Kyoko, Homura doesn't have any special abilities that would make a melee approach safer (she doesn't have any notable strength enhancement, acceleration etc).
I see where you think it is prudent, but instead, I rather see it utterly pointless due to the context, that's all (especially that she never needed such kind of weapon).

just how many yakuza headquarters are you envisioning a schoolgirl finding to loot? even if she re-loots the same place each time jump, that still leaves an inherent limit on her weapon pool (unless we grant her the replication ability i mentioned).

[Klashikari]

fuses are specifically designed to have predictable burn times. to not consider fuses as timers is like saying a clock is only a clock if it has a digital display.
she is shown literally making the bomb by following directions from the internet. that is basically the definition of unsafe (the roll of duct tape with her bomb parts is pretty funny too).
You are looking at the purpose of a fuse, I'm actually pointing the difference, because one is relying on electronics, the other one is prone to be affected by fabric default and other issues (not all fuses are affected the same way due to moistures etc). Both have the obvious same purpose for an explosive device, but the way how they work are drastically different. You aren't going to compare a analog clock and a digital clock, are you?
As for following instructions for that, I would agree if Homura was playing with some very volatile stuff and all. But we are dealing with just plain pipebombs, nothing like C4 or explosive based on chemical melange.
i never said they should be instantly frozen. if anything, the bullets just prove the inconsistency. bullets, with all the speed and force that they are fired with, only make it a few feet before freezing. her bomb, simply thrown, went a LOT further. Shaft is not the best studio choice for visual perspective (those who have watched Negima OVA knows what i'm talking about).
just how many yakuza headquarters are you envisioning a schoolgirl finding to loot? even if she re-loots the same place each time jump, that still leaves an inherent limit on her weapon pool (unless we grant her the replication ability i mentioned).You didn't pay attention it seems. Starting Timeline 4, Homura was going all out and raided a MILITARY site.
It is quite obvious when she is walking through a location with men in uniform (http://i.imgur.com/KhJXZ.jpg), then the scene shift to a room with so many assault rifles that you could lose count after a split of second (http://i.imgur.com/oznwX.jpg). And I really doubt she came there to pick just 1 rifle or 2.
Heck, the model of the automatic rifle she was using against that cage witch is arguably not the kind that Yakuza can have. Same goes for grenades.

[kaigan]

Given Madoka's thinking it was a dream when she woke up at the beginning, just like Homura at the start of the second timeline until she saw the soul crystal, I suspect that Homura has been bringing Madoka back with her every time, as in she wanted to protect THAT Madoka. Only, like in "Endless Eight," Madoka only remembers bits and pieces. That is why she is much less self confident now and why she has such potential. All of her experiences as a Magical Girl, dieing, and turning into a witch, have boosted her power. If she can regain her memories of all the Timelines perhaps she will have to power end the Magical Girl cycle and, perhaps, reset things. Or else the story will end with her dieing or becomming a witch and Homura going back in time again.


this is a wonderful observation! and a possibility even. but i wonder why madoka did not recall memory of her previous "selves" in homura's first reset up to the timeline homura singly face WN. madoka (in the current timeline) somehow recalls parts only in the immediately prior timeline not the rest. i suspect that madoka's wish to become a PM (prior to the current timeline) may provide some answers.

[Deconstructor]

Given Madoka's thinking it was a dream when she woke up at the beginning, just like Homura at the start of the second timeline until she saw the soul crystal, I suspect that Homura has been bringing Madoka back with her every time, as in she wanted to protect THAT Madoka. Only, like in "Endless Eight," Madoka only remembers bits and pieces. That is why she is much less self confident now and why she has such potential. All of her experiences as a Magical Girl, dieing, and turning into a witch, have boosted her power. If she can regain her memories of all the Timelines perhaps she will have to power end the Magical Girl cycle and, perhaps, reset things. Or else the story will end with her dieing or becomming a witch and Homura going back in time again.

I disagree. Madoka dies in the first and third timelines, while turning into a witch in the second. I think that once a person dies, they cannot be taken back in time - their memories are lost. If Homura truly was taking one past Madoka with her, then would Homura not have said so in this revelatory episode?

If anything, the absence of the fourth timeline's Madoka suggests to me that the fourth Madoka is responsible. After killing Walpurgi's Night, Madoka four is nowhere to be seen, while Kyubey and Homura are seen talking to each other. Almost coincidentally, the current Madoka dreams of that very scene, suggesting more events happen afterward. Where did the fourth Madoka go?

My guess is the fourth Madoka will appear within the next 2 episodes to save Homura from Walpurgi's Night. She will come with new knowledge of how to defeat Kyubey and his sinister scheme.

[Wuster]

If Madoka wished something along the line of "I want to become strong enough to help Homura" in the last timeline (timeline 4), not only did Madoka become strong enough to one-shot WN, but may have some spillover benefit to Homura's wish. Perhaps that's why the Madoka in this timeline (timeline 5) still remembers some memories from the previous timeline (4). I think her wish in timeline 4 was critical to what's going to happen in the last two episodes.

[Crontica]

Inb4 Madokastel exists.

[Eisdrache]

Homura probably can control the flow of time for certain things while she froze time, this would explain why the pipe bomb flew pretty far.

[CrowKenobi]

Where did the fourth Madoka go?

My guess is the fourth Madoka will appear within the next 2 episodes to save Homura from Walpurgi's Night. She will come with new knowledge of how to defeat Kyubey and his sinister scheme.Modoka 4 is dead. She became the witch you see in the background (the mountain!) at the end of that segment (before Homura jumps again).

[Deconstructor]

If Madoka wished something along the line of "I want to become strong enough to help Homura" in the last timeline (timeline 4), not only did Madoka become strong enough to one-shot WN, but may have some spillover benefit to Homura's wish. Perhaps that's why the Madoka in this timeline (timeline 5) still remembers some memories from the previous timeline (4). I think her wish in timeline 4 was critical to what's going to happen in the last two episodes.

Yes, this seems like the most direct and plausible explanation. Many people speculate that the future Madoka in the opening is the fourth Madoka - I have never seen the opening (I always skip it) but they may be correct.

Modoka 4 is dead. She became the witch you see in the background (the mountain!) at the end of that segment (before Homura jumps again).

Sometimes, a mountain is just a mountain. It could be a mountain of rubble from Walpurgi's Night, but I will watch the scene again to make sure this "mountain" is not ambiguous.

In the fourth timeline, Madoka became a Puella Magi and killed Walpurgi's Night in one hit. I assume that Madoka did not die or turn into a witch immediately afterward, as Kyubey says the following: "Now there's nothing left for her but to become the most evil witch ever." This implies that Madoka is alive and still a Puella Magi. Not to mention the Grief Seed from Walpurgi's Night should be massive (if they drop one at all). That should at least be enough to sustain Madoka for a day or so.

[DragoZERO]

Has anyone said what if it ends with Madoka dying and Homura going back again? :heh:

You are looking at the purpose of a fuse, I'm actually pointing the difference, because one is relying on electronics, the other one is prone to be affected by fabric default and other issues (not all fuses are affected the same way due to moistures etc). Both have the obvious same purpose for an explosive device, but the way how they work are drastically different. You aren't going to compare a analog clock and a digital clock, are you?
As for following instructions for that, I would agree if Homura was playing with some very volatile stuff and all. But we are dealing with just plain pipebombs, nothing like C4 or explosive based on chemical melange.
Shaft is not the best studio choice for visual perspective (those who have watched Negima OVA knows what i'm talking about).
You didn't pay attention it seems. Starting Timeline 4, Homura was going all out and raided a MILITARY site.
It is quite obvious when she is walking through a location with men in uniform (http://i.imgur.com/KhJXZ.jpg), then the scene shift to a room with so many assault rifles that you could lose count after a split of second (http://i.imgur.com/oznwX.jpg). And I really doubt she came there to pick just 1 rifle or 2.
Heck, the model of the automatic rifle she was using against that cage witch is arguably not the kind that Yakuza can have. Same goes for grenades.You're knowledge of weapons scares me sometimes...

[Xellos-_^]

Yes, this seems like the most direct and plausible explanation. Many people speculate that the future Madoka in the opening is the fourth Madoka - I have never seen the opening (I always skip it) but they may be correct.



Sometimes, a mountain is just a mountain. It could be a mountain of rubble from Walpurgi's Night, but I will watch the scene again to make sure this "mountain" is not ambiguous.

QB also stated that Madoka will destroy the Earth in 10 days. I think we can assume that it Witch Madoka that wants to destroy the earth.

[Deconstructor]

QB also stated that Madoka will destroy the Earth in 10 days. I think we can assume that it Witch Madoka that wants to destroy the earth.

Are you watching gg's version? I do not remember the part where Madoka destroys Earth in 10 days...

[Crontica]

Please do not tell me you think that gigantic pillar of darkness is a fatal graphical error, or some coincidental tornado.

[sa547]

That "mountain"? More like the equivalent of Rei/Lilith at EoE, except it's completely dark, so I think I'll call it Giant Witch!Madoka from now on.

[Solace]

Has anyone said what if it ends with Madoka dying and Homura going back again? :heh:

Yes. That discussion already took place in this thread yesterday. Given that people would rather simply post than read what others have posted (the tl;dr effect), most of the discussion about the episode has been cyclical instead of cumulative.

I mean, I guess a few of us could repost stuff we've already said, but what point is there when it is ignored by someone posting the same comment or question the last three pages just discussed? It's not only frustrating, but pointless.

[Zippicus]

Are you watching gg's version? I do not remember the part where Madoka destroys Earth in 10 days...

The 10 days comment was an off hand remark by QB, right before he said it's not his problem though since he got his quota. They didn't actually show her destroying the earth or anything heh.

[DragoZERO]

Yes. That discussion already took place in this thread yesterday. Given that people would rather simply post than read what others have posted (the tl;dr effect), most of the discussion about the episode has been cyclical instead of cumulative.

I mean, I guess a few of us could repost stuff we've already said, but what point is there when it is ignored by someone posting the same comment or question the last three pages just discussed? It's not only frustrating, but pointless.Okay, that's what I thought. Which is why I asked. Forgive me for being unable to read this entire thread. Perhaps next time, I'll print it out and take it with me when I do my laundry.

[Deconstructor]

I rewatched the scene - I see what everyone means. The camera is zooming in on a giant black mass while Kyubey talks about Madoka becoming a witch. Certainly, that is qualitative evidence to suggest Madoka is that black mass.

However, that alone is inconclusive. It could be Madoka, but it could also be another Walpurgi's Night, normal witch, or just a giant pile of rubble from the battle. Witches can be large, they can be dark. Madoka could have become a witch, but that does not necessarily mean that particular black mountain is Madoka.

The 10 days comment was an off hand remark by QB, right before he said it's not his problem though since he got his quota. They didn't actually show her destroying the earth or anything heh.

In gg's version, Kyubey says that "it won't take long before Madoka destroys the Earth" leaving whether Madoka has turned into a witch ambiguous. If he really meant 10 days, that could mean that Madoka is that black mass and is in the process of destruction, or Madoka has not turned into a witch yet and will turn into one within 10 days. The former seems more reasonable.

I will no longer argue that black mass is not witch Madoka; while inconclusive, I have the feeling there will be no end to the criticism.

[CrowKenobi]

I rewatched the scene - I see what everyone means. The camera is zooming in on a giant black mass while Kyubey talks about Madoka becoming a witch. Certainly, that is qualitative evidence to suggest Madoka is that black mass.

However, that alone is inconclusive. It could be Madoka, but it could also be another Walpurgi's Night, normal witch, or just a giant pile of rubble from the battle. Witches can be large, they can be dark. Madoka could have become a witch, but that does not necessarily mean that particular black mountain is Madoka.That "black mass" matches the form of the witch Madoka 2 became only the scale is different... :uhoh:

[Crontica]

Deconstructor get new glasses, Madoka-2 and 3's Grief Seeds broke and turned into big mountain.

Madoka-4 oneshots WN killing it (QB confirms this) then suddenly we see a gigantic ominous pillar.. i don't remember Magi city building no mountains.

[Xellos-_^]

Deconstructor get new glasses, Madoka-1 and 2's Grief Seeds broke and turned into big mountain.

Madoka-4 oneshots WN killing it (QB confirms this) then suddenly we see a gigantic ominous pillar.. i don't remember Magi city building no mountains.

Madoka-1 died, only 2 and 4 turn into witches. 3 had Homura do a mercy kill.

[Crontica]

Madoka-1 died, only 2 and 4 turn into witches. 3 had Homura do a mercy kill.

Thx otherwise Homura-1 would have been extremely hesitant to contract.

[Deconstructor]

That "black mass" matches the form of the witch Madoka 2 became only the scale is different... :uhoh:

Deconstructor get new glasses, Madoka-1 and 2's Grief Seeds broke and turned into big mountain.

Madoka-4 oneshots WN killing it (QB confirms this) then suddenly we see a gigantic ominous pillar.. i don't remember Magi city building no mountains.

Alright, you guys... I already said you won. There is more qualitative evidence to suggest that black tornado is witch Madoka. I'm not convinced, though.

Let us talk about something else.

[Crontica]

Alright, you guys... I already said you won. There is more qualitative evidence to suggest that black tornado is witch Madoka. I'm not convinced, though.

Let us talk about something else.

Lets talk about cake~

[Myssa Rei]

Lets talk about cake~

More to the point, if Madoka-1, 2, AND 3 wished for Cake (since it's what Mami suggested after all), then it's STILL amazing that she's still managed to defeat Walpurgis practically solo (albeit at the cost of her life). Though I can't imagine what silly secondary ability THAT gave her.

I really have to wonder now about Madoka-4's wish. If she could fight (and win) on just Cake...

[Vsin]

Y'know, I honestly wonder...

It has been observed that over the course of the timelines, Homura and Madoka have effectively been swapping personalities. The current timeline # is 5, and Madoka and Homura had the "double KO" at timeline 3.

Here's my theory: the ending involves Homura dying and...Madoka wishes to redo her encounter with Homura. Thus, we create a double infinite loop of 5s where the two essentially run two parallel cycles of opposite value.

...I'd actually rage if this was true, but I guess it's worth thinking about.

[Triple_R]

Maybe Madoka should wish to have her cake and eat it too. :p

Who knows what ability may come from that? Maybe the ability would be getting to be a magical girl without having a soul gem in place. That would enable Madoka to have her cake (be a magical girl) and eat it too (keep her soul in her body, and not slowly turn into a witch). ;)

[Myssa Rei]

Y'know, I honestly wonder...

It has been observed that over the course of the timelines, Homura and Madoka have effectively been swapping personalities. The current timeline # is 5, and Madoka and Homura had the "double KO" at timeline 3.

Here's my theory: the ending involves Homura dying and...Madoka wishes to redo her encounter with Homura. Thus, we create a double infinite loop of 5s where the two essentially run two parallel cycles of opposite value.

...I'd actually rage if this was true, but I guess it's worth thinking about.

Some pixiv artists are having the same thoughts as you.
(http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=17316190)


Triple_R: The fact is she probably wished for cake, and was still amazing in spite of it. That's something to think about.

[Triple_R]

Triple_R: The fact is she probably wished for cake, and was still amazing in spite of it. That's something to think about.

I know. I was making a half-joking reply.

But, in any event, sheer power isn't the issue here. The issue is finding a way to either fix the magical girl/witch system, or to destroy it. If that can be accomplished through a wish, anyway.

[ZeroIchiNi]

Y'know, I honestly wonder...

It has been observed that over the course of the timelines, Homura and Madoka have effectively been swapping personalities. The current timeline # is 5, and Madoka and Homura had the "double KO" at timeline 3.

Here's my theory: the ending involves Homura dying and...Madoka wishes to redo her encounter with Homura. Thus, we create a double infinite loop of 5s where the two essentially run two parallel cycles of opposite value.

...I'd actually rage if this was true, but I guess it's worth thinking about.

Would Homura memories will set back to timeline 1? Only 1-4? or continue to build on from 5 and above?


anyway, I think Madoka will make the contract despite everything that happened. Only this time she will be aware of all of the consequences unlike timeline 1-4. Would that mean that it would no longer be "fooled" by Kyubee like what Madoka-3 ask Homura to do?

[Shadow5YA]

I really have to commend Homura for making a concise wish with prolonged effects. The bit where she said she wanted to protect Madoka instead of being protected by her allowed her to go back in time whenever she failed and Madoka died or became a Witch on Walpurgis Night.

If Mami wished for what I think she wished for (i.e. being saved from the fatal car accident), then she is still not immune to being killed again, and her wish just got her out of that one accident. Likewise, if Sayaka just wished for Kyousuke's arm to heal, then he probably is free to break it again on a separate and unrelated occasion. Kyoko's wish had prolonged effects, but it was still poorly worded and she ended up wishing for something that was different from what she had intended.

[Deconstructor]

I really have to commend Homura for making a concise wish with prolonged effects. The bit where she said she wanted to protect Madoka instead of being protected by her allowed her to go back in time whenever she failed and Madoka died or became a Witch on Walpurgis Night.

Physically, yes. Ignoring any possible scenarios where Homura dies or goes insane, she has as many tries to save Madoka as she wants.
Emotionally, no. Homura must see Madoka and all her friends die. Over and over again. Crime fits punishment, misery matches wish.

[Triple_R]

Would Homura memories will set back to timeline 1? Only 1-4? or continue to build on from 5 and above?


anyway, I think Madoka will make the contract despite everything that happened. Only this time she will be aware of all of the consequences unlike timeline 1-4. Would that mean that it would no longer be "fooled" by Kyubee like what Madoka-3 ask Homura to do?

Well, if Madoka does end up contracting with Kyubey anyway, at least she'll go in with full knowledge of what that entails, and perhaps try to make a wish that would fix the magical girl/witch system or at least save herself from it's more negative repercussions.

[Xellos-_^]

Well, if Madoka does end up contracting with Kyubey anyway, at least she'll go in with full knowledge of what that entails, and perhaps try to make a wish that would fix the magical girl/witch system or at least save herself from it's more negative repercussions.
Madoka: I wish Magical Girls no longer turn into Witches
Kyuuby: ...:p:p:p please tell me another joke i haven't laugh this much ina long time. i got to tell the other guys at the office.

[hyperborealis]

In this episode, the writers shift our perspective radically, pushing us to step backwards, not in space, but in time, to see the bigger picture, which is that the current narrative is the latest in a series of narratives, triggered by Homura's wish, "I want to redo my meeting with Kaname. / Instead of being protected by her, / I want to protect her!"

Each timeline recounts a failure, as Madoka either dies or becomes a witch.

First question: Is there a narrative, a plot, a development of some kind across the timelines? Or is it just one thing after another, an assorted collection of Homura's efforts to save Madoka?

Clearly the episode describes Homura's character development over the timelines.

There is development in the way she relates to the magical girl system. In the original timeline, she contracts up. In the second, she buys into the system's idealism, only to find out the dark truth that MGs turn into witches. In the third, she tries to warn her friends, who disbelieve her at first and then crack up or despair when they realize the truth. In the fourth, she avoids these issues altogether by going it alone and dealing with the witches by herself, only to fail to prevent Madoka from contracting with QB. Now, in the current timeline, Homura is determined to prevent Madoka from signing up at all costs. So there is a coherent story happening across the timelines, as Homura learns the secrets about the magical girl system and adjusts her strategy in trying to protect Madoka.

Second question: why does Homura fail? Does she fail for different reasons each time, or is there an overall reason shared across all the timelines that explains her failures?

I think there is a common reason, and that lies with Madoka, who refuses to be protected in every timeline. In the original timeline, she ignores Homura's pleas to run away, and knowingly goes forward to her death. In the second timeline, she exhausts her soul gem fighting Walpurgisnacht and become a witch. In the third, she chooses to use her last grief seed to save Homura instead of herself, and asks Homura to kill her before she becomes a witch. In the fourth, Madoka contracts with QB in order to save the world from Walpurgisnacht after Homura is defeated. Homura may wish to protect Madoka, but Madoka insists on putting herself into harm's way anyway.

Final question: what is the curse that is the equal to Homura's wish?

In exchange for her wish that she should be able to return in time and to protect Madoka, Homura must experience over and over Madoka's insistence on sacrificing herself, her refusal to be protected.

In fact, one can look at each timeline as a version of Homura's original wish to protect Madoka, in which Homura finds herself defeated by the curse implicit in that version of the wish. In the first reset, Homura idealizes being a MG, only to find out at the end that MGs are in fact not idealized figures, but witches in the making. In the next reset, Homura reveals her time powers and tries to protect Madoka by revealing the truth about QB, but at the end Madoka bases her decision to die on her knowledge that Homura can reverse time. In the latest reset, Homura tries to protect Madoka by taking on all the witches by herself, but in so doing she leaves Madoka alone and therefore open to QB's seduction. In each case Homura's own efforts backfire and undermine themselves.

In essence, Homura wishes to deny and overturn Madoka's death. That is the reason she contracts with QB, and that is what she is trying to accomplish in each of the timelines. What she gets instead is a repeated life that turns into death, a life-in-death.

Homura battles fate. Her opponent is not so much QB but the nature of things, wherein things that live must also die. She cannot win.

[Deconstructor]

Madoka: I wish Magical Girls no longer turn into Witches

Kyubey: Your wish is granted.
*The next day*

Homura: Ma-Madoka?!
Madoka in orange suit: MORNING RESCUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[venk]

It seems madoka-4 using all her magic for 1 final move (just like kyoko's final move) to one-shot walpurgis, it ridiculously strong enough to make madoka's soul gem tainted in instant.

kyoko is smart to decided to destroy her soul gem along witch sayaka to avoid her witch transformation

[jeroz]

The curse of having your hope up multiple times only to see it crushing down in various ways.
Homura either have to find a loop hole or to let go.

[Wuster]

Perhaps Madoka's polar opposite personalities from timeline 1, 2, 3 versus timeline 5 (and probably 4 as well) can be explained if she wished in timeline 1, 2, 3 to be more grown up and to be more mature. The first 3 timelines are the ones that Madoka was already a MG and seemed very confident as opposed to the timid Madoka in timeline 5 (and 4). No, she probably didn't wish for cake.

I feel that if this is Madoka's wish in the first 3 iterations, it ties into the conversation Madoka had with her mom in timeline 5 about growing up and making mistakes. I am assuming that Homura's wish did not somehow cause Madoka's personality to change before they met at school right after the resets and that if Madoka's personality changes, it is caused by her own doing (her possible wish with kyubey in timeline 1, 2, 3) or by her environment (seeing Homura losing in timeline 4 and seeing all her MG friends die one by one in timeline 5).

Perhaps what stops the endless iterations through time by Homura is that Madoka is able to grow up and become more mature without making a contract with kyubey. Perhaps because she was able to accomplish her wish to grow up without Kyubey's help, she is somehow able to become a MG without entering Kyubey's contract of death.

Two more episodes! I can't believe the amount of suspense and speculations this anime generates even when it's starting the finale. Very masterful writing.

[Shadow5YA]

Perhaps Madoka's polar opposite personalities from timeline 1, 2, 3 versus timeline 5 (and probably 4 as well) can be explained if she wished in timeline 1, 2, 3 to be more grown up and to be more mature. The first 3 timelines are the ones that Madoka was already a MG and seemed very confident as opposed to the timid Madoka in timeline 5 (and 4). No, she probably didn't wish for cake.

I feel that if this is Madoka's wish in the first 3 iterations, it ties into the conversation Madoka had with her mom in timeline 5 about growing up and making mistakes. I am assuming that Homura's wish did not somehow cause Madoka's personality to change before they met at school right after the resets and that if Madoka's personality changes, it is caused by her own doing (her possible wish with kyubey in timeline 1, 2, 3) or by her environment (seeing Homura losing in timeline 4 and seeing all her MG friends die one by one in timeline 5).

Perhaps what stops the endless iterations through time by Homura is that Madoka is able to grow up and become more mature without making a contract with kyubey. Perhaps because she was able to accomplish her wish to grow up without Kyubey's help, she is somehow able to become a MG without entering Kyubey's contract of death.

Two more episodes! I can't believe the amount of suspense and speculations this anime generates even when it's starting the finale. Very masterful writing.

Madoka's confidence stems from her status as a MG. Remember that she believed that she did not have any special talent as a normal human being and thought MGs were meant to help others.

In timeline 4, she felt just as weak and helpless as she does now in the current timeline, and in timeline 3, she broke down and cried after finding out about Sayaka the Witch just like she did in ep9.

The situation is that Madoka feels that she is powerless to help others as a regular human, and that MGs by definition have special powers that can be used to make a difference. The only time Madoka was told otherwise was in ep9 when Kyoko said that only Madoka could possibly reason with Sayaka and help her turn back, but even that was a failure.

[Deconstructor]

Perhaps Madoka's polar opposite personalities from timeline 1, 2, 3 versus timeline 5 (and probably 4 as well) can be explained if she wished in timeline 1, 2, 3 to be more grown up and to be more mature. The first 3 timelines are the ones that Madoka was already a MG and seemed very confident as opposed to the timid Madoka in timeline 5 (and 4). No, she probably didn't wish for cake.

There is a personality inconsistency with Madoka, but I think you may be over-analyzing it. Madoka is naturally happy and cheerful, as the viewers see in episode 1. Kyubey arrives and offers the contract and wish, so Madoka accepts.

This happens in timelines 1-3, when Madoka is happy to make a wish and become a Puella Magi. In timelines 4 and 5, Homura interferes. Homura kills Kyubey and prevents Madoka from contracting. Inevitably, Madoka is still exposed to the terror of witches and the pain of other wishes gone wrong, without being able to do anything about it. She is still conscious of cruel reality. That is what causes Madoka's personality to shift from happy, oblivious schoolgirl into a hardened, distressed Madoka.

Edit: I have been preempted by Shadow5YA.

Perhaps what stops the endless iterations through time by Homura is that Madoka is able to grow up and become more mature without making a contract with kyubey. Perhaps because she was able to accomplish her wish to grow up without Kyubey's help, she is somehow able to become a MG without entering Kyubey's contract of death.

But what happens when Homura is at the brink of death, fighting against Walpurgi's Night? Does Madoka choose not to contract and let Homura die (thereby saving her from the cycle of time)? Does Madoka give up her own life, so she does not turn into a witch that destroys Earth? In summary, does Madoka sacrifice herself and Homura for the greater good? Just like how Kyubey is sacrificing humans for the sake of the universe?

Since we have already seen Madoka as a Puella Magi, I think the fans will be okay if Madoka does not contract with Kyubey. Once Madoka makes the willing choice not to become a Puella Magi, Kyubey has lost. It would make me very sad to see Madoka die as a martyr, but I will understand.

[MeoTwister5]

For all we know the ending could end up being that like a previous world Walpurgisnacht was defeated and Madoka is stopped from Witchyfying, but everything requires that she die. As in, the only way for everything to be resolved is for Madoka to die. She is essentially fated to die as the sacrificial lamb in exchange for the lives of everyone else.

The difference now is that this Madoka, through her acceptance of the memories of her alternate forms, comes to terms with this fact and accepts that this is precisely the greater good she must fight for. She comes to accept that as per Homura's previous attempts, sometimes it just has to be done. Rather than simply being the eventual fate she resigns to, she chooses this rather than being forced into it.

For Homura, she too perhaps comes to the acceptance that this is the role the two of them must play in this tragedy, that this is something that must occur not just for them but for everyone else. Maybe she'll come to terms with the fact and accepts Madoka's choice to die rather than try to fight against it, because this is what Madoka has chosen. Homua is like, say, the Peter to Madoka's Jesus.

In fact I'm seeing sacrificial lamb similarities to a few stories:

1. The New Testament, most notably.
2. The Final confrontation between Snake and Boss (Homura does exactly what Snake does after their fights.)
3. The ending to Wild Arms 5.
4. The ending to Persona 3.

So yes, if we don't get a miracle ending ala Higurashi, we'll likely see a heroic sacrifice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice), instead now Homura accepts what must happen.

[Deconstructor]

In fact I'm seeing sacrificial lamb similarities to a few stories:

1. The New Testament, most notably.
2. The Final confrontation between Snake and Boss (Homura does exactly what Snake does after their fights.)
3. The ending to Wild Arms 5.
4. The ending to Persona 3.

Hah, one Bible reference and three video games.

The most ironic part, if this should happen, is the parallel with Kyubey; he sacrifices humans for the sake of the universe. Madoka chooses not to sacrifice herself for the universe, but only Earth. Just Earth. Disregarding all other life in the universe... seems selfish, yet as a human I can understand.

As the camera zooms out on Madoka's corpse, Kyubey is revealed to have been testing Madoka all along - he was a metaphorical Satan. By miracle of miracles, Madoka is revived in similar fashion to Jesus, and purges the Earth of all witches. Then Madoka turns to Homura. Madoka says heaven is waiting for her, and she has to go now. Homura cries, begging Madoka not to leave. Madoka cries as well, telling Homura she will never forget her. A ray of light bursts through the sky and lifts Madoka toward the heavens...

...and that ends my impromptu fanfiction.

[Crontica]

Hanyuu has 2 horns on her head, Kyubei has two halos, what happens when an angel loses it's halo?

[Solace]

Once Madoka makes the willing choice not to become a Puella Magi, Kyubey has lost.

Sigh. I guess people really don't think this through.

If Madoka does not contract it is the same as dying. She is the only one that can defeat the Walpurgis and it is destroying everything. It must be defeated.

Because Madoka contracts, she will either die defeating the Witch, or defeat it and become a Witch even more powerful than Walpurgis. Strong enough to wipe out most, if not all, of the planet instead of just the city.

Because of this, Homura's wish cannot be fulfilled. What good is preventing Madoka from contracting if she will die anyway? Or to put this another way...what good is saving Madoka from the Walpurgis if Kyubey is still around to contract her in the future? The Walpurgis may be the key event in the story, but if you think past the story you'll realize that the same problem remains constant.

It isn't Kyubey. It isn't the Walpurgis. It isn't Madoka's sacrifice. It isn't her friends. It isn't the wishes. It's the MAGICAL GIRL SYSTEM ITSELF. Because there is no way to prevent girls from becoming Witches, or turning them back once they become one, at some point Kyubey WILL ensnare Madoka and the world will be fucked. It's as simple as that.

Kyubey can take all the energy he wants. He's a bastard, and a parasite, but whatever. It's the WITCHES that are the ultimate problem. Kyubey probably wouldn't care about the Witches turning back into humans, as long as he got his quota. In fact, he EVEN SAYS THIS. "I got my quota, she's humanities problem now." In fact, he'd probably prefer it if they could turn back. It opens up the opportunity for them to turn into Witches again, meaning more energy. Win/win for him!

Because Homura's wish requires her to protect Madoka from death or becoming a Witch, the wish will constantly send her back because at some point Kyubey will get Madoka's energy. It may not be Walpurgis, heck, Homura could probably find a way to defeat it and prevent Madoka from contracting. But that will not deter Kyubey. He'll just use another situation to create a reason to contract, because Madoka is too important to his collection quota to give up on.

However, in this system as it is right now, Homura knows that only two fates await Madoka: death, or becoming a world destroying monster with no way of coming back. Arguably, death is probably the better outcome in such a system. This is what she has to change, why her time keeps looping, and why simply preventing Madoka from contracting for as long as possible is simply not a workable option. At best, she's just stalling the inevitable.

My deeper explanation of Homura's problem and what goals she needs to succeed. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3525677#post3525677) Note that the solution may not even come from Homura, but it will be because of Homura's time loops that it becomes possible.

Also, about Homura's time loops. Her wish is to protect Madoka. I've stated this before but I'll repeat it. Anything that causes her wish to fail makes time reset for Homura. It's as simple as that. Death for either, Witch for either, both are bad ends and fail to complete the wish.

[jeroz]

question

if Madoka didn't heal Homura's soul gem in world 3, would the reset still happen?





Edit: It all depends on what type of ending Urobuchi likes to give us. A release and peace of soul (no pun intended) from all the torturous trials for Homura could be the finale of the story. She needs to accept and move on, and the current situation is not giving her the luxury to. The story could've ended at world 3 if not for the promise with Madoka.

[ttdestroy]

Well it's pretty clear that Madoka has to die, you simply can't eff with the universe (or fate or God or whatever you wish to call a higher power.) In every reality Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko all died, just under different circumstances, so I have no reason to believe Madoka will live, but a wish that gives Homura enough power to destroy Walpurgis should work right? As long as Madoka dies soon thereafter.

I think what I'm saying is Madoka has to become an MG and die but, victory can be ensured based on her wish.

[ninryu]

I disagree with people saying Madoka isn't strong as Kyuuby promised. It clearly shows Madoka becomes stronger every Walpurgis Night.

[NutShell]

I disagree with people saying Madoka isn't strong as Kyuuby promised. It clearly shows Madoka becomes stronger every Walpurgis Night.

if this loop turn long enough meybe homura can take Walpurgis alone ^_^

i will kidnap madoka when walpurgis night and let homura fight with the witch

after homura finish defating WSN kidnap her to:heh:

[Anh_Minh]

A remote...? I'm pretty certain she always activate some sort of trigger on the pipe bombs themselves and only afterwards, it will explode after a certain period of time (against patricia, she bumps the upper trigger of the pipebomb before throwing it. Against Sayaka, she does the same while apologizing during the time stop, then only afterwards, we got the explosions) .
But if it is really a remote, that makes the risk even less present in the end, all the better.
Oh, you were right. I don't know why I thought it was a remote.

[Zippicus]

Well it's pretty clear that Madoka has to die, you simply can't eff with the universe (or fate or God or whatever you wish to call a higher power.) In every reality Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko all died, just under different circumstances, so I have no reason to believe Madoka will live, but a wish that gives Homura enough power to destroy Walpurgis should work right? As long as Madoka dies soon thereafter.

I think what I'm saying is Madoka has to become an MG and die but, victory can be ensured based on her wish.

The main problem with Madoka dying is that Homura's wish is there to prevent that from happening. We've already seen what happens when the big bad witch dies and Madoka doesn't become a witch (offed by Homura before she could transform). That was pretty much the point of this episode to show all the scenarios that won't work.

[venk]

I disagree with people saying Madoka isn't strong as Kyuuby promised. It clearly shows Madoka becomes stronger every Walpurgis Night.


because madoka one shotted WN ?

imo she used her ultimate move (like kyoko's), and it suck all magic on soul gem for 1 finishing move, that's why she became a witch instantly.

[Misaka of Misaka]

I hear the strength of Madoka depends on her wish achieved when she contracts with kyu-bey.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Sigh. I guess people really don't think this through.

If Madoka does not contract it is the same as dying. She is the only one that can defeat the Walpurgis and it is destroying everything. It must be defeated.

Because Madoka contracts, she will either die defeating the Witch, or defeat it and become a Witch even more powerful than Walpurgis. Strong enough to wipe out most, if not all, of the planet instead of just the city.

Because of this, Homura's wish cannot be fulfilled. What good is preventing Madoka from contracting if she will die anyway? Or to put this another way...what good is saving Madoka from the Walpurgis if Kyubey is still around to contract her in the future? The Walpurgis may be the key event in the story, but if you think past the story you'll realize that the same problem remains constant.

It isn't Kyubey. It isn't the Walpurgis. It isn't Madoka's sacrifice. It isn't her friends. It isn't the wishes. It's the MAGICAL GIRL SYSTEM ITSELF. Because there is no way to prevent girls from becoming Witches, or turning them back once they become one, at some point Kyubey WILL ensnare Madoka and the world will be fucked. It's as simple as that.

Kyubey can take all the energy he wants. He's a bastard, and a parasite, but whatever. It's the WITCHES that are the ultimate problem. Kyubey probably wouldn't care about the Witches turning back into humans, as long as he got his quota. In fact, he EVEN SAYS THIS. "I got my quota, she's humanities problem now." In fact, he'd probably prefer it if they could turn back. It opens up the opportunity for them to turn into Witches again, meaning more energy. Win/win for him!


That's why the problem is still Kyuubey and his race....they are the wants facilitating the system. Hell they may even be its creators....as it is the biggest problem actually is simply that Homura cannot put him down for good.

[MartianMage]

I hear the strength of Madoka depends on her wish achieved when she contracts with kyu-bey.
Purely speculation at the moment.

[k//eternal]

That's why the problem is still Kyuubey and his race....they are the wants facilitating the system. Hell they may even be its creators....as it is the biggest problem actually is simply that Homura cannot put him down for good.

I still think it'd be funny if the series had an ostensible "good ending" where this system is broken and the Incubator race is defeated, then cut to an epilogue where after a few million years the universe was destroyed.

[FlavorOfLife]

There is also a complication based on what universe theory is used. A multiverse where each timeline is parallel (yes this is an actual RL theory evolved from string theory)? A reset singular timeline?

If the multiverse theory is used, there exists a possibility that Homura is still trapped even if she saves "a" Madoka as there are many Madokas not yet saved. i would be the first to admit that this point is not very likely to be used as from a storyboard PoV it is quite convoluted for audiences to grasp.

[ninryu]

There is also a complication based on what universe theory is used. A multiverse where each timeline is parallel (yes this is an actual RL theory evolved from string theory)? A reset singular timeline?

If the multiverse theory is used, there exists a possibility that Homura is still trapped even if she saves "a" Madoka as there are many Madokas not yet saved. i would be the first to admit that this point is not very likely to be used as from a storyboard PoV it is quite convoluted for audiences to grasp.
Personally I think it's a time reset according to what we've seen.

[guuchan]

Well it's pretty clear that Madoka has to die, you simply can't eff with the universe (or fate or God or whatever you wish to call a higher power.) In every reality Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko all died, just under different circumstances, so I have no reason to believe Madoka will live, but a wish that gives Homura enough power to destroy Walpurgis should work right? As long as Madoka dies soon thereafter.

I think what I'm saying is Madoka has to become an MG and die but, victory can be ensured based on her wish.

Then the story should have ended in timeline 3. Homura and Madoka defeated WN, then Homura killed Madoka so she didn't turn into a witch. Medetashi, medetashi.

But that obviously didn't end the story because that's not what Homura wished for. She wanted to be the one who protected Madoka. And by "protect", she meant preventing Madoka from becoming a MG just like Madoka did to her in timeline 1, which led to her wishing. I seriously don't think Homura can handle WN by herself, it's inevitable that Madoka will become a MG. It's really all about what wish Madoka will make.

Talking about timeline 3, I think I might get flamed saying this but: Madoka asked Homura to save herself from being cheated by Kyuubee, i.e. making the contract and become MG. I wonder what she was thinking, really. Maybe she didn't want herself to turn into the strongest witch and all, but was she expecting Homura to defeat WN by herself then in the next timeline? Or having other girls (to contract) to help Homura but just leave herself out of it? I don't get it, or I hope it's not what I'm thinking.

Purely speculation at the moment.

Kyuubee clearly said it in episode 3 though and it was a point I raised in that episode's thread.

[Haak]

Great episode. I loved every minute of it.

[aeriolewinters]

Just a query, Does this mean that Walpurgisnacht is actually Homura's Witch form? Are there leads to this?

[MartianMage]

Kyuubee clearly said it in episode 3 though and it was a point I raised in that episode's thread.
I'm referring to Madoka's potential strength. As per episode 5 it has already been confirmed that the kind of wish affects the kind of power(and obviously some powers are just overpowered in certain situations like Homura's time stop) but there has been no confirmation that the wish itself can affect the wishmaker's potential.

[ninryu]

Just a query, Does this mean that Walpurgisnacht is actually Homura's Witch form? Are there leads to this?
It doesn't make sense. Homura is clearly alive while the Walpurgis Night.

[guuchan]

I'm referring to Madoka's potential strength. As per episode 5 it has already been confirmed that the kind of wish affects the kind of power(and obviously some powers are just overpowered in certain situations like Homura's time stop) but there has been no confirmation that the wish itself can affect the wishmaker's potential.

Ah. Potential, eh. We know by now that Madoka is ridiculously strong given her potential, so boosting her potential or not is just a difference between "ridiculously strong" and "ridiculously stronger", which to me isn't much of a difference. :heh:

[Cosmic Eagle]

It doesn't make sense. Homura is clearly alive while the Walpurgis Night.

I think he means that Walpurgis Nacht may have the same time travel power as Homura. Although I think that's just reading too much into it. Whatever it is, it shouldn't be Homura...

[DangoMochi]

I noticed they added Kyoko and Homura in the last scene of the OP.

[Misago]

hi there, just caught up with this series & had a couple of thoughts.
agree with Solace that the problem is with the Magic Girl/Witch system itself. the technology was invented by Kyubei & his race, and they are using it to achieve their aims of collecting the energy etc etc. so one way to change the Magic Girl/Witch system would be to change Kyubei itself - we know it doesn't have emotions and that's why it can't empathise with the girls who get caught up as witchfinders & finally turn into witches - so if Madoka was to wish for Kyubei to have emotions and finally have to face up to the emotional cost of the contacts its peddling to the girls...?
anyway really enjoying this series!

[Wakan Tanka]

I think he means that Walpurgis Nacht may have the same time travel power as Homura. Although I think that's just reading too much into it. Whatever it is, it shouldn't be Homura...

Some people said that Homura is the WN, which is rather stupid..some said that WN is not one witch, which is really inserting, 'cuz WN is the night when the witches are supposed to meet.

[NutShell]

I think he means that Walpurgis Nacht may have the same time travel power as Homura. Although I think that's just reading too much into it. Whatever it is, it shouldn't be Homura...

when homura stop time,the witch can move to

if didn't like that homura can easly beat the witch like another witch

is that right?

and what happen if Homura die ? her wish didn't fulfilled so that is not like the contract

[ninryu]

hi there, just caught up with this series & had a couple of thoughts.
agree with Solace that the problem is with the Magic Girl/Witch system itself. the technology was invented by Kyubei & his race, and they are using it to achieve their aims of collecting the energy etc etc. so one way to change the Magic Girl/Witch system would be to change Kyubei itself - we know it doesn't have emotions and that's why it can't empathise with the girls who get caught up as witchfinders & finally turn into witches - so if Madoka was to wish for Kyubei to have emotions and finally have to face up to the emotional cost of the contacts its peddling to the girls...?
anyway really enjoying this series!
I think IF he would care about the Mahou Shoujos thanks to the emotions, he still wouldn't be able to change the system itself.

[Cosmic Eagle]

when homura stop time,the witch can move to

if didn't like that homura can easly beat the witch like another witch

is that right?

and what happen if Homura die ? her wish didn't fulfilled so that is not like the contract

It's more like what happens to Madoka rather than Homura herself....

She should reset if she dies. But if she finally falls and becomes a Witch, then I don't know...

And WN can still attack when Homura is using her powers (it was shooting at her as she attacked)

[Moridin]

Y'know, I honestly wonder...

It has been observed that over the course of the timelines, Homura and Madoka have effectively been swapping personalities. The current timeline # is 5, and Madoka and Homura had the "double KO" at timeline 3.

Here's my theory: the ending involves Homura dying and...Madoka wishes to redo her encounter with Homura. Thus, we create a double infinite loop of 5s where the two essentially run two parallel cycles of opposite value.

...I'd actually rage if this was true, but I guess it's worth thinking about.

Rage? That would be an awsome ending. I was thinking about this some hours ago too, and I liked the idea. Eternaly looping, each set of of cycles one of them is trying to save the other.

But, that is not how i think it will end. Just as many previous posters, i have concluded that the problem is the system of witches/magic girls. Since QB's race is what is driving this system, it's them that needs to be stoped.

I dont remember if QB could grant any wish, but i think he said he could (he could turn her into god). I dont remember if he grants all wishes. If he does both of those things then there are countless of wishes that would stop, defeat or alter the system so that all would survive and there would be no more threat of witches.
The most logical thing is if he does not grant all wishes. Then defeating the system becomes a little harder since the wish needs to trick him into granting it.

[hyperborealis]

Why is there a magical girl system in the first place? Is it simply part of the furniture of this fictional world, a given, or is it something else?

We see in this episode the actual first time someone crosses into the witch world. It is Homura who first crosses over. And notice just how she does it: she begins to have suicidal feelings, due to her feelings of self-doubt and unhappiness about her health and physical incapacities. As she thinks about killing herself, she hears QB in her mind telling her she should kill herself, the pavement changes into Picasso's Guernica design, and she is suddenly transported into the witch realm. There Madoka and Mami save her from the witch, and the magical side of the anime begins.

Now, Homura's perception of QB, the witch, and the MGs is perfectly intelligible within the terms of the magical girl world. We know that witches cause depression and suicides, so when Homura feels suicidal, it is due to the influence of a nearby witch. The line between the ordinary and the magical world is already blurred, and so Homura crosses over.

But...Homura also has real reasons to be depressed. She has a congenital heart condition, she is physically awkward, she is shy and socially inept. There are many ways for such a person to respond to her problems, but certainly one way is the imaginative escape, the withdrawal into a fantasy world where she can act out wish-fulfillments of power and self-importance.

In this case, one can argue that the whole magical world is best understood as Homura's desire not to be herself, but instead to live a fantasy life in a world without the personal problems she faces in the orginal timeline. Homura's wish to protect Madoka is her displaced wish to be like Madoka, and particularly the Madoka she meets at school: someone vivacious, positive, sure of herself. Homura's continual failure to save Madoka corresponds then to the incapacity of her imaginary world of wish-fulfillment to displace her actual reality.

If this interpretation is correct, the magical girl story should collapse back into a realist story about Homura facing the reality of her heart disease, or about Homura coping with the aftermath of a suicide attempt.

I don't expect this to happen, since it throws too much out, replacing 10 episodes of one genre with a story from a completely different genre. I think it also would be a little too cruel to the viewers, who have also invested themselves in a degree of fantasy escape. Still, the writers have consistently played a game of pulling the rug from under our feet, forcing us to change completely the way we look at the story so far, so who knows?

[Triple_R]

Why is there a magical girl system in the first place? Is it simply part of the furniture of this fictional world, a given, or is it something else?

We see in this episode the actual first time someone crosses into the witch world. It is Homura who first crosses over. And notice just how she does it: she begins to have suicidal feelings, due to her feelings of self-doubt and unhappiness about her health and physical incapacities. As she thinks about killing herself, she hears QB in her mind telling her she should kill herself, the pavement changes into Picasso's Guernica design, and she is suddenly transported into the witch realm. There Madoka and Mami save her from the witch, and the magical side of the anime begins.

Now, Homura's perception of QB, the witch, and the MGs is perfectly intelligible within the terms of the magical girl world. We know that witches cause depression and suicides, so when Homura feels suicidal, it is due to the influence of a nearby witch. The line between the ordinary and the magical world is already blurred, and so Homura crosses over.

But...Homura also has real reasons to be depressed. She has a congenital heart condition, she is physically awkward, she is shy and socially inept. There are many ways for such a person to respond to her problems, but certainly one way is the imaginative escape, the withdrawal into a fantasy world where she can act out wish-fulfillments of power and self-importance.

In this case, one can argue that the whole magical world is best understood as Homura's desire not to be herself, but instead to live a fantasy life in a world without the personal problems she faces in the orginal timeline. Homura's wish to protect Madoka is her displaced wish to be like Madoka, and particularly the Madoka she meets at school: someone vivacious, positive, sure of herself. Homura's continual failure to save Madoka corresponds then to the incapacity of her imaginary world of wish-fulfillment to displace her actual reality.

If this interpretation is correct, the magical girl story should collapse back into a realist story about Homura facing the reality of her heart disease, or about Homura coping with the aftermath of a suicide attempt.

I don't expect this to happen, since it throws too much out, replacing 10 episodes of one genre with a story from a completely different genre. I think it also would be a little too cruel to the viewers, who have also invested themselves in a degree of fantasy escape. Still, the writers have consistently played a game of pulling the rug from under our feet, forcing us to change completely the way we look at the story so far, so who knows?

If I'm following you correctly, then, what we've been seeing through out almost all of this anime (possibly everything except the very first school scenes of Episode 10) is merely a manifestation of Homura's escapist fantasies, and none of this magical girl/witch stuff is even going on in reality? It's akin to, say, the dreams of Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_and_Hobbes) fame) imagining himself as Spaceman Spiff or Stupendous Man, while also conversing regularly with a stuffed tiger, perhaps in order to cope with a lack of friends and dissatisfaction with life?

Oddly enough, as much as I typically loath "It was all just a dream!" ending twists, I think I could live with it here, if it's executed well (i.e. if the thematic drive behind it comes across well). My only problem with it is that this anime isn't experienced primarily through Homura's perspective in Episodes 1 through 9. Madoka and Sayaka tend to come across as the two primary points of focus for those first three quarters of this anime. That would be odd if this is all a dream or escapist fantasy in Homura's head.

Still... there is something I found a bit weird about how Homura is warped into that witch realm in Episode 1. Not in a bad way, just in a "Is this really happening?" kind of way.

Part of me still thinks that there might be a Matrix-esque thing going on with this anime.

Or, at the very least, maybe this anime works in a "mind over matter" sort of way. Where expectations and emotions become self-fulfilling prophecies.

[ThereminVox]

I'm wondering now if the briefly-glimpsed Mount Madoka is actually Madoka in witch form, or if that is her grief seed's incubating stage, like Charlotte had by the hospital. Her final form might be something different if it's the latter.

[ninryu]

I know a lot of you think a good end will suck, but as someone who hates sad endings I really hope for a good one.
Plus I think everyone suffered more than enough.

[Triple_R]

I know a lot of you think a good end will suck, but as someone who hates sad endings I really hope for a good one.
Plus I think everyone suffered more than enough.

A total "bad end" would suck much more, in my opinion.

I don't want an ass pull ending (be it good or bad), but if they can make a good end that doesn't feel horribly contrived (i.e. not. like. Mai HiME! :heh:) then I'm perfectly cool with that.

I'd love to see Sayaka and Kyoko come back, and enjoy a happy life of lesbian love. :p

Same goes for Madoka and Homura. ;)

Mami can come back too, though the poor girl might feel like a fifth wheel, lol. I guess she can keep Hitomi company then, if things don't work out between Hitomi and Kamijo.


To put it in a nutshell: I expect a bittersweet ending. At the same time, I could happily live with a well-executed good ending. Would facepalm at a Mai HiME style ending, but I'd still like the anime a lot overall. Would likely rage at a total "bad end".

[Reckoner]

The most likely ending will be a bitter sweet one.

[Solace]

Oddly enough, as much as I typically loath "It was all just a dream!" ending twists, I think I could live with it here, if it's executed well (i.e. if the thematic drive behind it comes across well).

"It was all a dream" endings work great when the audience is confused which world is real. One of my favorite examples of this type of story is a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode where Buffy is in her own "normal" Slayer world and another world where she's just a mental patient in a hospital. The doctors in the hospital are trying to convince her that her Slayer reality is fake and that the hospital reality is the real one. When forced to make a choice, she picks the Slayer reality. The choice is done very well, as the hospital scenes are very convincing and you really don't know the truth either way.

In a philosophical sense, reality is merely a matter of perception. For example, the virtual reality argument. Assume your life is virtual reality. Who is controlling you? Would someone control them? Is there a long chain of people controlling people, each in their own virtual world? At what point does it end? What reality is the final, definite, real thing? Here's a classic example of this concept:

Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi. Between Zhuangzi and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things.

And of course, referencing the Buffy episode, reality rejection is a known mental disorder. In fact the realities crafted can be incredibly detailed and intricate. The mind just cannot tell the difference and simply accepts one and ignores the others, much like someone with multiple personality disorder is often unaware of the other personalities. The human mind does not like inconsistencies and can invent some really screwed up ways of "fixing" them.

In the context of Madoka, why does the Magical Girl system exist? Well the simple answer is that Kyubey needs it for his entropy plan. The extrapolated version is that in the Madoka universe Magic is real and a tappable resource. It is likely that some humans tapped into it without realizing over the existence of mankind, which is a fair enough explanation for why some pieces of our past regarding magic and witchcraft came to be. Personally I don't think Kyubey invented it...he merely discovered it and the potential it held for his goals and figured out how to manipulate it toward those ends.

In our own reality we can't prove magic so we pass it off as simply superstition or religion/paganism. However given the unknown nature of the universe and the potential of the human mind anything is plausible, even if current scientific knowledge rules it out as improbable. That said, I doubt we'll be seeing Kyubey's asking us for contracts anytime soon. :heh:

[sa547]

I predict a very bittersweet ending, somewhat on the lines of the ending of the film Leon/The Professional.

[Zippicus]

I'd say that 3/5 of the main cast dead is well on it's way to "bittersweet"

[Triple_R]

"It was all a dream" endings work great when the audience is confused which world is real. One of my favorite examples of this type of story is a Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode where Buffy is in her own "normal" Slayer world and another world where she's just a mental patient in a hospital. The doctors in the hospital are trying to convince her that her Slayer reality is fake and that the hospital reality is the real one. When forced to make a choice, she picks the Slayer reality. The choice is done very well, as the hospital scenes are very convincing and you really don't know the truth either way.


I also saw a Star Trek: TNG episode like this once, involving Will Riker. It was similarly quite compelling.

"It was all a dream" endings can work if they're foreshadowed well, and if you have some sense of blurring/contrast between dream and reality during the story.

Madoka Magica kind of has that, in my opinion. Having the very first scene that we see in the anime being a dream could be a nice way to foreshadow an "It was all a dream" ending. And the stark difference between witch's realms and normal reality provides a blurring of reality.


Something else I just thought of, if this anime goes in an "It's all the dream/escapist fantasies of Homura" route (quite off the wall, and unlikely, I'll admit, but let's explore this idea for sheer speculative fun, lol).

Perhaps the magical girl/witch events in this anime involving other characters is a majorly souped up fantasy equivalent of what's really going on.

Kyoko is the new magical girl in town, and picks a fight with Sayaka?

Kyoko is the new girl in school, and gets in a fight with Sayaka due to, say, Kyoko engaging in classroom delinquency, or cheating on tests. :heh:


Sayaka gets really depressed over Hitomi asking Kamijo out on a date?

Homura imagines this as Sayaka descending into being a witch!


Going by this theory, Homura is Calvin, and Kyubey is her Hobbes, created as a competitive counterpoint and driver of her imaginations. The two are engaged in a dark game of Calvinball, with Homura's highly admired Madoka being the object fought over. Homura eventually projects her own insecurities unto Madoka (hence why Madoka is not as strong in Timeline 5 as she was in Timeline 1), wanting to see Madoka overcome them so that Homura knows of a way to do so as well.

Homura's fantasies end and we see the real world as is once Homura gains the desired self-esteem.

Very far out there, but I'd actually quite like this, I think.

[hyperborealis]

Oddly enough, as much as I typically loath "It was all just a dream!" ending twists, I think I could live with it here, if it's executed well (i.e. if the thematic drive behind it comes across well). My only problem with it is that this anime isn't experienced primarily through Homura's perspective in Episodes 1 through 9. Madoka and Sayaka tend to come across as the two primary points of focus for those first three quarters of this anime. That would be odd if this is all a dream or escapist fantasy in Homura's head.

Yes. There are a lot of problems with this interpretation. Perhaps you are bringing out an issue with this episode in particular: however you read it, the episode does make Homura and her wish the center of the anime's overall narrative, but the story so far has not focused on Homura at all. Also, you are bringing out an issue with time-loop stories themselves, which the anime can now hardly avoid: the repetitions tend to devalue the significance and the importance of a given timeline.


Still... there is something I found a bit weird about how Homura is warped into that witch realm in Episode 1. Not in a bad way, just in a "Is this really happening?" kind of way.

I know! Did you notice how the animation shows Homura slowly closing her left eye, and then when she opens her eye again, it is her right eye, and now she can suddenly see the witch world!? It's quite deliberate. What do you make of that?



Part of me still thinks that there might be a Matrix-esque thing going on with this anime.

How I hope not. Wasn't that also an alien-energy-harvesting-human-minds kind of story too?



Or, at the very least, maybe this anime works in a "mind over matter" sort of way. Where expectations and emotions become self-fulfilling prophecies.

I think that's right. Isn't that the idea about witches, that they are the manifestation of the magical girl's despair? And, maybe the magical girl herself is the expression of the ordinary girl's desire to help others?

Along these lines, I was wondering how far Homura is involved in constructing the renewed timeline. A lot is just given, but appearance of the other magical girl seems to fluctuate according to Homura's strategy for that timeline. Also, Madoka's character seems to change in reflection of Homura's wish: she seems to become someone who needs to be protected, very like Homura was in the beginning. Given that Homura is recreating reality each time, it is not too much of a stretch to think she is also redesigning it subtly. But posters on this thread have suggested plausible in-world explanations for the various changes, so perhaps Homura doesn't in fact change anything. But if she does, then the world itself is merely a projection of her expectations and emotions. Then Homura would be the true villain of the piece! Final scene of the anime: Madoka, begging, "Homura-chan! Please...let...me...die!!!!" And then we don't find out what Homura does. :D

[Solace]

Triple R, you're all of a sudden reminding me of this trope: Dream Apocalypse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DreamApocalypse):heh:

[kaigan]

As she thinks about killing herself, she hears QB in her mind telling her she should kill herself, the pavement changes into Picasso's Guernica design, and she is suddenly transported into the witch realm.


i think it was the witch isadel talking inside homu's mind instead of qb. qb appeared just after madoka and mami fired the opening salvo.


In this case, one can argue that the whole magical world is best understood as Homura's desire not to be herself, but instead to live a fantasy life in a world without the personal problems she faces in the orginal timeline. Homura's wish to protect Madoka is her displaced wish to be like Madoka, and particularly the Madoka she meets at school: someone vivacious, positive, sure of herself. Homura's continual failure to save Madoka corresponds then to the incapacity of her imaginary world of wish-fulfillment to displace her actual reality.


hagoshod posted something interesting and quite relevant to this one.

The entire story is a feminist deconstruction of Peter Pan. The characters are the Lost Girls by multiple definitions. It's a coming-of-age story about a group of little girls who are afraid of growing up, losing their idealism, and becoming something bad (compare Madoka's witches to Peter Pan's pirates plz). They're lost causes because, once you're a Magical Girl, the only way out is death.



back to homura's desires not to be herself, i wonder if it is truly about escaping reality and avoiding her personal problems. in the original timeline, she was mesmerized and deeply moved by madoka's idealism to fight witches that helps a lot of people. madoka just earned a fan. but homura neither become madoka-like nor a pm yet. she did not become not herself. she did not subject herself to peer pressure, if there is such in any case. her inaction means she has no intention of turning into someone who is not her, even if there are two admirable magic girls right in front of her. she only become a pm after desiring madoka to live on of which qb heard and offered the contract.

homu's entry into the magical world originally has nothing to do about replicating madoka completely or role reversal. of course she needs to grow (or adapt changes) in order to protect madoka, but her sole intention is simply to be helpful so that madoka will not push herself fighting alone and dying. i wonder if this could be considered escapism of reality for power and self-importance but i see your point.

in the 3rd timeline, when madoka and homu finished off WN, homu is still very much herself and seemed to be satisfied to die and to turn into witches with madoka together. it seems her wish is finally fulfilled. however madoka saves her from turning into a witch and requests to save her too from her foolishness and qb's trickery. that scene is traumatic as homu killed what she considers her "only friend".

the next timeline, 4th, we witnessed the considerably dramatic change in homu's personality. she turned someone very far from her original self and seemed to be more dominant. and it's interesting to note that it's not even someone like madoka. i don't see this as what she intentionally wanted but she was forced to be someone not like herself because of the circumstances, trauma, responsibility, and dedication.

so i don't exactly see homu's dive into the magical world as a deliberate and conscious attempt to change herself and escape reality for power and self-importance. changing herself is just a secondary byproduct of her selfless effort to save madoka.


If this interpretation is correct, the magical girl story should collapse back into a realist story about Homura facing the reality of her heart disease, or about Homura coping with the aftermath of a suicide attempt.

I don't expect this to happen, since it throws too much out, replacing 10 episodes of one genre with a story from a completely different genre. I think it also would be a little too cruel to the viewers, who have also invested themselves in a degree of fantasy escape. Still, the writers have consistently played a game of pulling the rug from under our feet, forcing us to change completely the way we look at the story so far, so who knows?

your idea is not far-fetched, but i agree it will be painfully cruel if the writer somehow would select that course.

[hyperborealis]

In the context of Madoka, why does the Magical Girl system exist? Well the simple answer is that Kyubey needs it for his entropy plan. The extrapolated version is that in the Madoka universe Magic is real and a tappable resource. It is likely that some humans tapped into it without realizing over the existence of mankind, which is a fair enough explanation for why some pieces of our past regarding magic and witchcraft came to be. Personally I don't think Kyubey invented it...he merely discovered it and the potential it held for his goals and figured out how to manipulate it toward those ends.

We get confirmation of QB's anti-entropy energy project in the various timelines: most famously of course when he puts on his salaryman hat, and says "But well, that's not my problem. / I gathered a lot more energy than our collection quota," and also at the moment of Homura's wish, when he says that "Your wish has improved the entropy." (By the way, this translation makes no sense. Do you have a better idea of what the Japanese says?)

One weird note though. The first time Homura hears QB, she hears him urging her to kill herself: "Then it'd be better if you just died now, wouldn't it?" That is QB's voice, right? If so, this urging doesn't quite fit the entropy model, since there's no profit in a girl who dies before she can become a MG. Rather, this line suggests QB is more like a demon, who enjoys human suffering and death just since he's evil.

The hallmark of the series so far has been the P.K. Dick turn, where reality is suddenly revealed to be a contrivance of a deeper reality. If we then ask, what is the most basic part of the anime, the part that's not going to be overturned, I would say that is not a plot element such as the MG system, but rather the moral sentiments that the girls express at different moments. I can envisage the writers throwing the MG system under a bus if they need to in order to confirm these sentiments.

[totoum]

The first time Homura hears QB, she hears him urging her to kill herself: "Then it'd be better if you just died now, wouldn't it?" That is QB's voice, right?


I thought it was the witch's voice,not the first time we hear one talk,Elly said something to madoka back in episode 4.

[taofd]

1. no one knows if you can actually become a MG without QB's help

2. could very well be that the natural end product of a MG is a witch. The QB didn't create the process so much as exploiting it.



Sayaka's gem wasn't completely dark but she turn into a witch anyway. it isn't just using magic that turns a MG into witch but also emotional and Mental health of the MG.

Actually if we can take QB's words at facevalue then he says this in episode 9.

He says that the found mahou shoujo's magic, which implies that magical girls exited prior to his arrival.

Also for you guys who are watching the series again:


Pay attention to everytime a chime sounds

[Solace]

We get confirmation of QB's anti-entropy energy project in the various timelines: most famously of course when he puts on his salaryman hat, and says "But well, that's not my problem. / I gathered a lot more energy than our collection quota," and also at the moment of Homura's wish, when he says that "Your wish has improved the entropy." (By the way, this translation makes no sense. Do you have a better idea of what the Japanese says?)

I don't know of any better translations, sorry.

One weird note though. The first time Homura hears QB, she hears him urging her to kill herself: "Then it'd be better if you just died now, wouldn't it?" That is QB's voice, right? If so, this urging doesn't quite fit the entropy model, since there's no profit in a girl who dies before she can become a MG. Rather, this line suggests QB is more like a demon, who enjoys human suffering and death just since he's evil.

That's actually the Witch Isadel urging her to kill herself. It's the second instance in the series of a Witch using speech (the first is Elly).

The hallmark of the series so far has been the P.K. Dick turn, where reality is suddenly revealed to be a contrivance of a deeper reality. If we then ask, what is the most basic part of the anime, the part that's not going to be overturned, I would say that is not a plot element such as the MG system, but rather the moral sentiments that the girls express at different moments. I can envisage the writers throwing the MG system under a bus if they need to in order to confirm these sentiments.

Morality aside, there still needs to be a plot. We already have enough material to fuel morality discussions for a while, but we need a plot to wrap up the show.

@taofd - Is this like the "red door" thing from the Sixth Sense? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Demon Eyes]

Any one else think that HomuHomu might actually be strong enough at this time to take out WN?

I mean looking back, in the first instance, she made a contract.

In the second, she was as clumsy as anything which was partly due to her lack of physical strengths. She helped Madoka and Mami to fight WN but for some reason the more experienced Mami died and Madoka turned witch while Homura lived (hmmm).

In the third, she fought alongside Madoka and they took out WN.

In the 4th, she fought all witches alone and was going head to head with WN. None of that clumsiness in sight as she was flying around battling showing great skill. And even as Madoka made the wish, Homura didn't look like someone who was 'done in' yet.

This time around she just have to be able to defeat WN except the problem would be that in the case of double K.O or her turning witch, Madoka is left to the mercy of that smug QB. Now while Madoka might not contract (which would only be possible if Homura begs her to not do it for the sake of saving Homura) there is nothing stopping QB from pulling other strings...like say...Madoka's family and thus forcing her to contract.

Either way, there is no way out of this mess other than dealing with QB and his race.

Well, in the episodes left there is enough time to bring QB into more light and hopefully, take him out for good!

[Kazu-kun]

Any one else think that HomuHomu might actually be strong enough at this time to take out WN?

Yeah, I think that's possible. I mean, if she can't win and Madoka make a contract to fight is Timeline 4 all over again.

Besides, Homura doesn't look resigned to lose yet. The title of next episode is called:

"The final sign left".

This is said by Homura, so I think she still has something under her sleeve.

[Triple_R]

That's actually the Witch Isadel urging her to kill herself.

Do we really know that?

That voice sounded a lot like Kyubey to me...

One thing that I would consider very telling either way is who the voice actress for that "Isadel" line is. If it's the same voice actress as Kyubey's voice actress...

[hyperborealis]

i think it was the witch isadel talking inside homu's mind instead of qb. qb appeared just after madoka and mami fired the opening salvo.

Is that a different voice? I really couldn't tell. It would make sense if it is different, since what the voice says in not in keeping with QB's energy-harvesting project.


back to homura's desires not to be herself, i wonder if it is truly about escaping reality and avoiding her personal problems. in the original timeline, she was mesmerized and deeply moved by madoka's idealism to fight witches that helps a lot of people. madoka just earned a fan. but homura neither become madoka-like nor a pm yet. she did not become not herself. she did not subject herself to peer pressure, if there is such in any case. her inaction means she has no intention of turning into someone who is not her, even if there are two admirable magic girls right in front of her. she only become a pm after desiring madoka to live on of which qb heard and offered the contract.

She is living vicariously through the examples of Madoka and Mami, just as someone who reads a manga or watches an anime becomes like the character they idealize, not by becoming the character in fact, but by identifying with the character.



in the 3rd timeline, when madoka and homu finished off WN, homu is still very much herself and seemed to be satisfied to die and to turn into witches with madoka together. it seems her wish is finally fulfilled. however madoka saves her from turning into a witch and requests to save her too from her foolishness and qb's trickery. that scene is traumatic as homu killed what she considers her "only friend".

The whole scene where Homura proposes to Madoka that they become witches together and destroy the rotten world is flat-out insane. I can only make sense of it as an expression of despair, as a desire for suicide on a grand scale. I think we see the original Homura here, dressed up in the trappings of a romantic joint-suicide with Madoka.



the next timeline, 4th, we witnessed the considerably dramatic change in homu's personality. she turned someone very far from her original self and seemed to be more dominant. and it's interesting to note that it's not even someone like madoka. i don't see this as what she intentionally wanted but she was forced to be someone not like herself because of the circumstances, trauma, responsibility, and dedication.

But this is what she wanted: to become someone strong enough to protect Madoka. She didn't want to be Madoka; she wanted to become like Madoka, someone who was strong, someone who was able to protect Madoka the way Madoka was able to protect her. The wish-fulfillment would presumably lie in the gaining of this sort of power, and even becoming this kind of person.



so i don't exactly see homu's dive into the magical world as a deliberate and conscious attempt to change herself and escape reality for power and self-importance. changing herself is just a secondary byproduct of her selfless effort to save madoka.

I agree with you!

I'm just throwing out the possibility that the "selfless desire to save madoka" is itself a wish-fulfillment, essentially a selfish desire on Homura's part to become a heroine instead of the useless person she feels she is in the beginning. And we should at least ask this question, since the anime at various points--especially when Mami cautions Sayaka about her motives for becoming a MG--says the girls must distinguish between what is selfish in their wishes and what is for the sake of other people.

That said, I think you're right. Homura's desire to save Madoka is sincere.