PDA

View Full Version : Anime Elitists?


Alliepie
2003-11-16, 06:38
My boyfriend isn't the biggest anime fan... he used to watch the old school stuff and every once in awhile he watches Miyazaki films with me but.... I was talking about the possible release of Witch Hunter Robin on Cartoon Network and how it shouldn't be put on toonami (ugh).... ANywayz... He says that he thinks alot of anime fans are elitist in that we shun the mainstream stuff or act all cool cuz we've seen the original stuff (fansubs and what not)...

How do you guys feel about this? Like... I'm not against anime going more mainstream, because that will bring more fans to the genre, but.... I feel sad for people that only experience anime through cartoon network ...

When I started becoming an anime fan I was the only one in my town that had any real concept of REAL anime in my opinion. Sure pokemon and sailor moon were popular, but it bugged me when people thought that thats all it was and associated me with that. I had one stupid preppy girl say... "Oh... Pokemon! You like that stuff right?" .... I hated that! I'd like to consider myself a little more educated on anime and I always like to keep with the newest stuff if I can (without spending money LOL). Does that make me an elitist? LOL

And with the Witch Hunter Robin thing... Its not toonami material I think. Adult swim is cool, but... how am I an elitist if I think it doesn't belong with dragonballz -_-

Ya know I like to consider myself lucky to have seen Rurouni Kenshin on vhs fansubs way back when..... way before it came out on tv. XD Sure the quality wasn't so good, but dammnit it was made for fans by fans and it felt... truer to the anime in my opinion. I much rather get fansubs then commercial releases.

Just something I was thinking about. Let me know yer opinions XD I is curious to see how everyon feels.

microlith
2003-11-16, 07:28
"Elitists" suffer from a few common symptoms:

1.) They argue about the sub/dub issue to this day
2.) They tend to drag shows through the dirt if they've been seen by a wide audience
2a.) this does not apply to shows seen before they were on TV, and they will note this.
3.) They make half-ass remarks about fansubs being better than commercial releases solely because fansubs were done by fans, claiming the world about the fansubs being better in every way despite any obvious flaws.
4.) They tend to actively discourage people who are interested in Anime if they have started from stuff like Dragonball Z

Those who think Anime = Pokemon simply don't know any better. Don't worry about them. WHR doesn't exactly belong with DBZ because WHR is aimed at a very different audience, as was Bebop, and several of the Gundam OAVs. Granted the same people might watch them but there are many who will watch DBZ and nothing else.

Keops
2003-11-16, 08:28
I think that people are missing a lot by watching the censored/edited series on most television networks. Here in Venezuela this is less evident (we had once both Saint Seiya and Rurouni Kenshin completely uncut on TV) but now some series (like Inuyasha) have been edited when shown on Cartoon Network.

Sure, watching one of those "slaughtered" series on mainstream TV may be kinda good and serve as an introduction to a horde of new people... However, I think that, if they then become fans they should know the truth. With this I'm not saying anyone should discourage people to watch anime on TV, but at least, when they become interested enough, they should learn about the world of fansubs, legal anime video releases, the uncensored version of the series etc. Think of this edited series as a "light" anime treat or as something like an anime "starter pack". However, the true fan, the one who already knows should avoid this, since it's most probable he's missing a lot from the original content...

Those are my 2 cents... See you on the boards.

gravitation
2003-11-16, 08:45
i must admit that if more ppl over here in england were to watch it / if it was to be shown on t.v i wouldnt feel to good about it, i like it how it is over here at the mo, only a few ppl know and watch it ^__^ im not to sure why i dont want tons of ppl to know about it but i just dont ^__^

K_R
2003-11-16, 08:48
Firstly, anime is not a genre.

I think your boyfriend is misunderstanding your objection to anime on cartoon network or toonami (or maybe I am). Fans of fansubs (and to a lesser extent those of us who watch anime raw) dislike the idea of censorship and editing that generally comes part and parcel of being shown on 'mainstream' TV - butchering the director's original vision. Nothing to do with being elite.

I feel sorry for the people that only know DBZ or Pokemon. They don't know how rich anime is, plus they've probably only been exposed to the American dumbed down version of DBZ and Pokemon (where the hell did they get "Jesse and James" from??).

Superchop
2003-11-16, 11:59
I feel that the mainstream stuff on TV is just like a taste for me, I'll watch it cause right now that's one of my main anime sources...I seriously hate when they cut things out and/or change things around but if it's on tv then i can live with it...If i really like the series i will most likely end up buying the series so i can get it the way it's meant to be...

And fansubs are 2nd best right next to the dvd's...

Normal people that aren't into anime as much as others will most likely not care enough about censorship and just watch what's on tv and not think twice about gettin dvd's or watching the uncut/uncensored versions...and cause they see that people like us hate to see things uncensored and we try to divide it from other series for one reason or another they think we take it a bit too far...but this is our hobby and nothing else...just like some people have their cars, model building, etc etc...we have anime.

(where the hell did they get "Jesse and James" from??).

I'm not sure where they got the names..but i think someone in the studio had a thing for wild west films....Jesse and James = Jesse James...and the other two from the same team, Butch and Casidy = Butch Casidy i dotn know if this is meant to be like this...but it's just a little thing i noticed...

u&t
2003-11-16, 12:48
Not to be nitpicking here but the word "elitist" don't apply to animefans at all. Looking up the word on dictionary.com:

2 entries found for elitist.
e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
1. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
2. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.


Which is a bit off the mark i.m.o. A better word would be "arrogance":

arrogance

\Ar"ro*gance\, n. [F., fr. L. arrogantia, fr. arrogans. See Arrogant.] The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption.

I hate not you for her proud arrogance. --Shak.

Syn: Haughtiness; hauteur; assumption; lordliness; presumption; pride; disdain; insolence; conceit; conceitedness. See Haughtiness.

Still not nice being called arrogant but members of any subculture are perceived as arrogant by the mainstream. Everytime you think someone is ignorant or stupid they usuallly think you're arrogant. I don't have a problem with that. It's just the balance of things (or thoughts in this case)...

DrWho2002
2003-11-16, 17:04
The thing I hate about most anime fans is that they think somehow anime is "theirs" and they get all pissed off when it gets bigger than niche/alternative entertainment, just being anti-mainstream.

JAppi
2003-11-16, 17:06
"Elitists" suffer from a few common symptoms:
1.) They argue about the sub/dub issue to this day


I hate people who blindly say that subs are "TEH OMG BETTARH!" There are good dubs and there are bad dubs.


2.) They tend to drag shows through the dirt if they've been seen by a wide audience
2a.) this does not apply to shows seen before they were on TV, and they will note this.


Well most of the time they do it because they see that really retarded people are watching it. They feel that if people see that they like it they'll feel stereotyped as the same as these blind followers of the show.


3.) They make half-ass remarks about fansubs being better than commercial releases solely because fansubs were done by fans, claiming the world about the fansubs being better in every way despite any obvious flaws.


DAMN THEM!


4.) They tend to actively discourage people who are interested in Anime if they have started from stuff like Dragonball Z


I agree. Seems rather pointless to do.


WHR doesn't exactly belong with DBZ because WHR is aimed at a very different audience, as was Bebop, and several of the Gundam OAVs. Granted the same people might watch them but there are many who will watch DBZ and nothing else.

Well I personally don't think there would be much to cut, although american censors can be rather harsh.

Animaniac
2003-11-16, 17:10
The Azumanga Daioh "review" on ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature.php?id=159) (scroll to the bottom) is the worst case of elitism I have ever seen.

method
2003-11-16, 18:04
Why are fansubs truer to anime than commercial releases? Fansubs are not perfect. WHR from what I have heard doesn't fit with the toonami demographic of 6-14 yr olds so Cn will put it on Adult Swim. The problem with some anime fans is want their favorite titles to stay underground and think too highly of that because the evil mainstream audience doesn't know about that title. Also when it comes to airing a title they nitpick the smallest detail whether it is the editing of nudity or language or something inconsequential as that.

Flash_Squirrel
2003-11-16, 18:10
That chat session hosted by one the people who writes for ANN is rather sad.

"To me, to me, the popularity of Azumanga Daioh is the mass movement of thousands of lonely men signaling vainly to each other to give validity to them watching a show about pink-donning prepubescent girls"

method
2003-11-16, 18:23
That wasn't a review of AzuDai. That was a chat session hosted by one the people who writes for ANN.

Kamui4356
2003-11-16, 19:23
I have no problem with editted anime on TV in most cases, as long as an uneditted version is available for me to watch. The only time it really bothered me was when they showed a few editted episodes of Evangelion at 4:00 on cartoon network. I was afraid that some little kid would like the series, and have his mother buy it on dvd. Then the mother would come into the room during one of the later episodes, be shocked at what was going on, and create a lot of controversy about that level of violence being in, what in her eyes is, a "kids show". Fortunatly that didn't happen, but if it had it could have been a serious setback for anime in the US. Yes I am aware of the age recommendations on the box, but how many parents actually follow them.
To get more on topic, yes there is an amount of arrogance in anime fans. Personally I like to introduce more people to new series they haven't heard of yet, but I know people who have shown a new series around, then got pissed that other people actually liked it. I'm guilty of being arrogant too, but in a different way. I get pissed at people who only watch DBZ, and people who associate anime with only pokemon, dbz, and Yugi-oh. I think we should all try to remember that to most people animation is just for kids, and anime is animation. Instead of getting mad we should either ignore such criticism or find an anime that the person would like if they actually watched it.

Kempis Curious
2003-11-16, 21:21
I think "mainstreamed" anime is ok. It's easier to get someone to watch a fansub if they've already been exposed to an anime on TV, albeit one that's been dubbed, cut, and commercialized.

I can't imagine the shock of going from Tom and Jerry or Bugs Bunny and then seeing Scrapped Princess, Saikano, or Sexy Commando.

I do understand the worry that people won't get into funsubbed anime if the anime they have seen on TV is sanitized. We just have to hope that if they are that intelligent, they will be smart enough to be curious about the original product.

-k

Neoelement
2003-11-16, 21:36
I have nothing against Mainstream anime, i just like it in Japanese /w subs, period.

Now i know there are good dubs and shit, but i still like it in Japanese, it adds kind of an environment to anime and it seem natural. (engrish = sucky and put me out of anime mood)

What i do have a problem with is most of the lame ass fans that only watch Mainstream and are to stupid to know whats better. For example if you've ever gone to Adultswim.com forums and look at all the Inuyasha-whores posting "OMG INUYASHA AND OMG DRAGON BALL Z AND OMG POKEMON!!!!" wasting god knows how much bandwidth is stupid as hell. (for the record, i have nothing against the anime on adultswim, i just think the watchers need pity and a new religion or lack of one)

but for the most part, Mainstream gets anime more viewers, and i bet that a lot of the Elitist probably began watching some old mainstream anime on TV and got hooked on it, i know i did, sadly, back in the days >_<

Alliepie
2003-11-16, 22:07
I'm not against mainstream anime either. Or against commercial releases. I prefer subbed over dubbed.... tho there have been some rare occasions where I've watched the dub before the subbed and I can't get into the subbed one. LOL Or vice versa...

I can't stand Kenshin's voice dubbed.... I tried.. I so did but i had to switch back. On the other hand Cowboy Bebop was dubbed VERY well and I rather enjoy the english version.

My bf used the term elitist -_- Arrogance would be a better word probably, but I just going by what he said.

HAHA Kamui! I always fear that too! Like remember when gundam was popular on cartoon network? I can picture some little kid search it up on the internet and finding the massive yaoi fanbase LOL Maybe seeing some explicit pics in the process. As far as Eva... it kinda bugs me that they aired it. It wouldn't bother me so much if it was aired on like... hbo or cinemax, because they are more adult oriented. It would be cool if a random non anime fan turned on hbo and watched eva and saw the depth of some kinds of anime.

method
2003-11-16, 22:26
Well they only aired the first two episodes and the week failed overall so no damage was done to either group. There are only a few titles that are mainstream and they are kiddy titles like Pokemon. DBZ also, but you can find that one subbed on the dvds

Mr. Bushido
2003-11-16, 22:30
the reason most ppl dont like dubs is because we're all used to the subs.

i hate dubs because:
they take out lot of asian traditional and cultrual things because they want their kids to be WESTERN as possible
honestly, americans cant get the japanese emotion, just the way japanese cant get american emotion. different voice, different culture, different language.
ppl here think its soley for kids, so most anime comes out on kid hours, therefore they edit a lot of stuff out. I mean look at simpsons, its no edited, cusses, blood, and racial slurs. If they put some anime on Fox at 8pm they could do that too.

i dont have anything against the mainstream, let them make money. But when i turned on Shaman King i just had to turn tat off.
My first anime in the US was pokemon, and i watched in english, and have never heard it in japanese. So i never complained. But when i see the japanese versions of animes i cant watch american versions, they edit too much and the voice doesnt match. Like i said before, its hard to capture the emotion and tone someone has in a different language. I speak 2 different languages fluently, and its hard to get the same tone and emotion in one language to the other.

Keitaro
2003-11-16, 22:46
Thats why I perfer the subs with japanese dubs, it just sounds better. The english dubs really suck in most animes but I amit their are a few anime series where the dubs are just as good as their japanese counterparts, for ex. Cowboy Bepop, Outlaw Star. But as Zoro said its really hard for the english voice actors to capture the emotions and tone of someone who speaks a different language.

s0nicfreak
2003-11-16, 23:04
I've watched anime my whole life (18.5 years). I liked DB/Z/GT (yes I'll admit it I even liked GT) in Japanese. I like Inuyasha and Pokemon in Japanese.

I don't like dubs because I don't like listening to people speak english for 25 mins. English is annoying to me, weither it be in anime, irl or any other form. But I'm happy that I can go to the store and buy Pokemon, DBZ & Yu-gi-oh (I like the manga but not the anime) shirts instead of having to pay shipping fees to order them from Japan.

Anyway
I don't like ppl who say db/z/gt and pokemon are not real anime. DB/Z was obviously popular enough in japan to be on for like 12 years. Pokemon has always been one of the most popular anime in japan since it began airing and still is. Before these became popular in america, there were only like 1/1000 the amount of people that didnt like them (db/z especialy).

But I also don't like ppl who are like 12+, see db, pokemon, inuyasha or etc. and suddenly decide they like anime. Even (or realy, especialy) if they start to find out more about anime and start watching subs & fansubs... They seem like otaku-wannabes to me.

Actualy now that I think about it, weither ppl like mainstream anime or weither they don't, weither they are elitist or not, I don't like just about everyone.

Keitaro
2003-11-16, 23:29
I've watched anime my whole life (18.5 years). I liked DB/Z/GT (yes I'll admit it I even liked GT) in Japanese. I like Inuyasha and Pokemon in Japanese.

I don't like dubs because I don't like listening to people speak english for 25 mins. English is annoying to me, weither it be in anime, irl or any other form. But I'm happy that I can go to the store and buy Pokemon, DBZ & Yu-gi-oh (I like the manga but not the anime) shirts instead of having to pay shipping fees to order them from Japan.

Anyway
I don't like ppl who say db/z/gt and pokemon are not real anime. DB/Z was obviously popular enough in japan to be on for like 12 years. Pokemon has always been one of the most popular anime in japan since it began airing and still is. Before these became popular in america, there were only like 1/1000 the amount of people that didnt like them (db/z especialy).

But I also don't like ppl who are like 12+, see db, pokemon, inuyasha or etc. and suddenly decide they like anime. Even (or realy, especialy) if they start to find out more about anime and start watching subs & fansubs... They seem like otaku-wannabes to me.

Actualy now that I think about it, weither ppl like mainstream anime or weither they don't, weither they are elitist or not, I don't like just about everyone.

ok.....I agree somewhat with what your saying but I think its a good thing that 12+ kids are watching anime such as DB, Pokemon or inuyasha which by the way are good anime series. I want more people to get into anime and enjoy it. I think by watching those mainstream anime it opens a door to the real world of japanese anime. So I think its a good thing to have anime on american tv stations such as Cartoon Networks Toonami.

I also dont give a rip whether ppl like mainstream anime or not. Why should you care, you should like what you like not what others tell you. So go and watch fansubs or DBZ on Toonami, and enjoy anime for what it is.

method
2003-11-16, 23:48
, so most anime comes out on kid hours, therefore they edit a lot of stuff out. I mean look at simpsons, its no edited, cusses, blood, and racial slurs. If they put some anime on Fox at 8pm they could do that too.

What version of the Simpsons were you watching. The worse word in Simpsons was maybe damn or something like, there were no racial slurs in the show either. Most of the instances of blood has used in comical situations. Anyway the audience for anime is too small for network tv to even consider it.

hunterx
2003-11-17, 01:25
yea but it's not just anime. once something becomes mainstream then everyone hates it. anime, music, games, movies, even sports teams and operating systems. That's just the way it goes

Keitaro
2003-11-17, 01:32
yea but it's not just anime. once something becomes mainstream then everyone hates it. anime, music, games, movies, even sports teams and operating systems. That's just the way it goes

Well its their choice to hate it, they will soon realize its really stupid to hate something just because its mainstream and that everyone knows about it. I think no one should care it its mainstream or not.

s0nicfreak
2003-11-17, 01:41
there were no racial slurs in the show either
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:-YdLYBViNekJ:www.geocities.com/webslinger516/simpsons.html+simpsons+chinaman&hl=en&lr=lang_en|lang_ja&ie=UTF-8

Not to mention that it's full of racial stereotyping...

Neoelement
2003-11-17, 02:16
People try to seek uniqueness, i know i do
I mean, Im not going to go to some poser sellout punk band concert and buy a shirt, only to find out 50 people from school went and bought it. Im going to go to a hardcore punk band show and buy the shirt that maybe 10 kids even know what the band is.
It is similar with anime. When I saw Furi Kuri for the first time in japanese it was great, no one knew what it was or anything (at my school), and it opened me to The Pillows, which now i have a few cds. Then it was release mainstream, all these kids would talk about it and say how cool the songs were and shit, they didnt know who sang the songs, in fact they didn't probably even know what the parodys in it were about. Furi Kuri is still on my top list, but doesnt seem so cool to talk about with all these lamers at my school. Now this could just because Im antisocial with lamers, but i think Im better off safe then sorry and no speak with them.
Where i was going with this, who knows. But there is a point within this junk of writing, or so atleast i hope there is ^_^

Keitaro
2003-11-17, 02:24
People try to seek uniqueness, i know i do
I mean, Im not going to go to some poser sellout punk band concert and buy a shirt, only to find out 50 people from school went and bought it. Im going to go to a hardcore punk band show and buy the shirt that maybe 10 kids even know what the band is.
It is similar with anime. When I saw Furi Kuri for the first time in japanese it was great, no one knew what it was or anything (at my school), and it opened me to The Pillows, which now i have a few cds. Then it was release mainstream, all these kids would talk about it and say how cool the songs were and shit, they didnt know who sang the songs, in fact they didn't probably even know what the parodys in it were about. Furi Kuri is still on my top list, but doesnt seem so cool to talk about with all these lamers at my school. Now this could just because Im antisocial with lamers, but i think Im better off safe then sorry and no speak with them.
Where i was going with this, who knows. But there is a point within this junk of writing, or so atleast i hope there is ^_^

I feel really sorry for you if you think like that. If they dont know shit about the pillows or what parodys were in flcl then educate them. I dont get ppl who are like this, its very immature to think this way.

Mr. Bushido
2003-11-17, 02:43
What version of the Simpsons were you watching. The worse word in Simpsons was maybe damn or something like, there were no racial slurs in the show either. Most of the instances of blood has used in comical situations. Anyway the audience for anime is too small for network tv to even consider it.

well.... let me start this post with a quote of grandpa simpson

"Bitch, bitch, bitch, why is it always the bitch?"

and one from Homer

"What!? thats insane, thats almost as unheard of as SMART italiens!"

oh yea how about Marge.

"Now we can be like the french, or we can do something about it"

yea just few examples.

It doesnt matter, they show blood. i dont see comical blood on the FOX BOX, have you?

Tboz
2003-11-17, 07:41
Japanese animations were obviously made for kids in the first place. If not, what are Doraemon and Astroboy... :eyespin:

I think the reason why more anime with adult themes and deep storyline are popping out is because we the anime fans who grew up watching Astroboy has grown-up too. The Anime Industry is definitely not going to stay stagnent and produce anime for kids only. Why abandon the old audience when you can make something for them too? Thus movies like GITS was produced for the lot who had developed an appetite for something more mature.

Anime-elitists are merely misleaded people who think they are superior because they think they have seen the best. Hell, I think Japanese are probably so used to anime on TV that they forgets about the series as soon as a new one replaces it.

Just my 2 cent. :)

Radd
2003-11-17, 07:45
Reread that definition of 'elitist'. It definitely fits the attitude of a lot of anime fans.

Personally, I think there are many groups of elitists within the anime fandom, each feeling superior for different reasons and calling the others 'elitists' because they don't like what they like.

First you've got the oldschoolers, people that think all anime after 19xx is all flash and no substance, and that the anime fandom has been going downhill ever since such and such a year or such and such a show that was obviously superior to anything since, why can't you people see it!? How can you stand these bland, uninteresting character designs, when characters 10 years ago looked so much better?

Then you've got the Newtypes, anything older than 19xx, or even 20xx in some cases, is trash. Crappy animation, bad dialogue, too many ongoing series that are difficult to follow unless you see them all in order! Why do you like that Harlock crap? It's fugly! Give me Last Exile any day!

Then you've got the Anti-Socialist Revolution, people that imeadiately hate anything that becomes popular in the 'mainstream'. If it's been on cartoon network, has '-mon' at the end of the title, or has been seen by more than 2 out of 10 anime fans, it must be overhyped, overdone, and overrated.

Then you've got the Mainstreamers, people that can't stand anything that isn't popular! People that like shows because they're popular (of course most who fit into this group would never admit it, but they do exist). People that can't stand trying to read subtitles while listening to people talk in that silly sounding "ping-chong-yang" language. People that think that a character's or mecha's powers or abilities are what makes them so insanely cool "Goku would kick anyone's ass!" "Wang Zero Custom PWNZ0RZ J00!"

Then there's the Purists, those who not only prefer subs, but will only watch subbed anime. Dubs aren't worth their time. Generally these guys fit in with the Anti-Socialist Revolution comrades.

Let's not forget the Otaku. These people can lean heavily towards any of the previously mentioned groups, but they also tend to like anything Japanese, BECAUSE it's Japanese. People that like almost any anime, simply because it's anime, regardless of the quality/genre/theme/whatever.

There's the Anti-Pokemon Hate League, people that hate Pokemon for no other reason than it's Pokemon. Sure, they'll spout reasons, but often they make these up as they go along. Many probably haven't even seen the show, or played the games. Pokemon's popular enough that it makes an easy target, so they feel they get 'cool points' by taking potshots whenever possible. Sure, this group probably fits nicely under the Anti-Socialist Revolution, but they're a loud enough group that they deserved a group of their own.

I'm bound to be leaving groups out, but I'm certain we've all ran into some of these stereotypes at one point or another. Heck, most of us probably fit into one or more of these stereotypes, at least a little.

Radd
2003-11-17, 07:50
Japanese animations were obviously made for kids in the first place. If not, what are Doraemon and Astroboy... :eyespin:

I think the reason why more anime with adult themes and deep storyline are popping out is because we the anime fans who grew up watching Astroboy has grown-up too. T


There's been adult orient anime for ages now. Even Astroboy isn't entirely a 'kids show' as american audiences think of such, it's more of an 'all ages' sort of show, and even then much of it was cut out or edited, to make it "safe" for american child audiences.

Adult oriented anime is nothing new, a little bit of searching through anime from the 50's-70s and you'll find tons of shows that wouldn't be considered "for kids".

Tboz
2003-11-17, 08:11
Maybe there are but can we name them at our fingertips? Yes?

Still, the anime series that were brought out of Japan are likely those suitable for kids (with or without cuts), I haven't seen any of the adult-oriented anime when I was young and I probably won't care much of it back then.

Essentially, we are still talking about anime-elitists (nice categorization) who are not Japanese. So what the non-Japanese audiences have seen is more on discussion. :)

method
2003-11-17, 12:19
well I guess this is where I say I'm PWNED :p I guess I'll go and sit in a corner for 5 minutes as punishment.

Well I did see blood in some instances of blood during Tom and Jerry and some of the cartoons like that. Also there was blood in some episodes of Family Guy and that was on at various times, but that doesn't mean anime has any real chance on network tv. Shoot Family Guy had Peter nude. :upset:

Lupin the 3rd is one of the bigger titles that could fit.

Radd
2003-11-17, 20:39
The way it was worded, it sounded as if you were saying anime was originally meant just for kids. My apologies if this wasn't the case.

I can't name many shows from the 1950's in general, aside from Tetsuwan Atom and Tetsujin 28 Go! (which is arguably more mature than your run of the mill kids programming), a lot of the manga from that time period was definitely teen-adult oriented. Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Water Margin, anyone? Those might have been the 60's or possibly even 70's, though.

Starting with the 60's-70's there's a lot more I can name off the top of my head. Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, Space Battleship Yamato (the movie of which apparently induced riots, and can you imagine a bunch of 11-12 year olds tearing things up, smashing windows and filling the streets?), Space Pirate Captain Herlock, Galaxy Express 999, Mobile Suit Gundam. How about that there Lupin III?

Then on through the 80's there's yet more. SDF Macross (even the heavily edited and dumbed down 'Robotech' was well known as a much more mature cartoon than was normal at the time), Bubblegum Crisis, Crusher Joe (though that might have even been the 70's), let' not forget Miyazake's works which are not kiddy material, even if kids can enjoy them just as well as adults.

In Japan, animation just hasn't had the 'kid's stuff' stigma that animation developed in the United States through Disney and Rocky&Bullwinkle (even a lot of older Warner Brothers cartoons were aimed specifically at adults). I haven't even touched the Hentai. You think that stuff is new to the 90's and 2000+?

A lot of the shows I've named have been available in the international market for quite some time. Those that haven't seen legitimate releases until recently, have been popular in the fansub circles for ages.

Heh, I guess I'm showing my age, and my colours.

Mr. Bushido
2003-11-17, 21:37
The way it was worded, it sounded as if you were saying anime was originally meant just for kids. My apologies if this wasn't the case.

I can't name many shows from the 1950's in general, aside from Tetsuwan Atom and Tetsujin 28 Go! (which is arguably more mature than your run of the mill kids programming), a lot of the manga from that time period was definitely teen-adult oriented. Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Water Margin, anyone? Those might have been the 60's or possibly even 70's, though.

Starting with the 60's-70's there's a lot more I can name off the top of my head. Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, Space Battleship Yamato (the movie of which apparently induced riots, and can you imagine a bunch of 11-12 year olds tearing things up, smashing windows and filling the streets?), Space Pirate Captain Herlock, Galaxy Express 999, Mobile Suit Gundam. How about that there Lupin III?

Then on through the 80's there's yet more. SDF Macross (even the heavily edited and dumbed down 'Robotech' was well known as a much more mature cartoon than was normal at the time), Bubblegum Crisis, Crusher Joe (though that might have even been the 70's), let' not forget Miyazake's works which are not kiddy material, even if kids can enjoy them just as well as adults.

In Japan, animation just hasn't had the 'kid's stuff' stigma that animation developed in the United States through Disney and Rocky&Bullwinkle (even a lot of older Warner Brothers cartoons were aimed specifically at adults). I haven't even touched the Hentai. You think that stuff is new to the 90's and 2000+?

A lot of the shows I've named have been available in the international market for quite some time. Those that haven't seen legitimate releases until recently, have been popular in the fansub circles for ages.

Heh, I guess I'm showing my age, and my colours.

agrees with this guy.

anime or cartoon in general were not only meant for kids. You probably didnt know the mature things because u were younger than. And cartoons are as old as Napoleon. (older)

every cartoon also has 2 joke system. Which means the same joke has several different meanings for several different age levels.

one example is bugs bunny who is playing with a calculator and he says "didnt u know rabbits can multiply"" *raise eyebrows*
to kids its like "hahaha funny he can multiply"
to us its like "hahahha wat a horny rabbit"
you know?

shiznitty
2003-11-17, 23:30
well, it is pretty annoying when a new show is released like on toonami, and everyone is talking like they know it. I dont see why ppl talk about dbz so bad though. although it isnt great compared to the other shows, who here can honostly admit that they weren't drawn to dbz when they were kids?

Keitaro
2003-11-18, 04:16
well, it is pretty annoying when a new show is released like on toonami, and everyone is talking like they know it. I dont see why ppl talk about dbz so bad though. although it isnt great compared to the other shows, who here can honostly admit that they weren't drawn to dbz when they were kids?

I don't let it annoy me when ppl talk about a show like they know it, I think ppl shouldn't care just because its gone mainstream and now everyone is talking about it. Isn't it good for the creators of that particular anime show, this is also true with basically any form of entertainment. I can amit I like DB/DBZ/GT anime series the japanese dubs of course, a lot of ppl hate the dragon ball series because its gone mainstream and now everyone knows about it which by the way is a very selfish way to look at it. If it wasn't for those kinds of ppl who annoy you who give high rating to shows such as DBZ on Toonami, good anime shows wouldn't have been licensed for our viewing pleasure here in the USA.

shiznitty
2003-11-18, 04:42
yea, japanese dubs rock!, but goku in the japanese one sounds like a little kid. meh
I'm not against mainstream at all. Trigun is out on adult swim, im not going to shun it. What i meant by annoying ppl were those who come to school and talk about the newest episode that aired. I know its not their fault, but you cant help but become exasperated :P

DrWho2002
2003-11-18, 05:35
OMG! How dare someone else like the same thing as ME!!!!! The nerve of the person. *scoff*

Tboz
2003-11-18, 05:51
Hmmm... You are right then, some of your examples are remotely suitable for kids, just that they probably look at it differently like Zoro said. Heh, I even watch some of those when I was young, and as shiznitty mentioned there are some elements in them that still appeal to kids and likely these are what's holding the kids attention instead of the riotings and window breaking. Still, its dependent on how the kid in question look at it.

So I guess what is different with now and back then is that we realized that there is a need to filter the shows according to its content. Probably due to the excessive unhealthy exposure that kids can get by just the click of the mouse, parents are getting more and more edgy of what their children is viewing behind their back, be it on TV, thru the net or thru any other sources. We now have different channels dedicated to different levels of show or late timeslot for those deemed unsuitable for children. Even movies and games are rated for their contents as well. In the end, I guess its still up to the authority to decide which show goes where. And whether the ratings are adhered by parents and child is another matter.

:p

Kurara
2003-11-18, 23:06
I really, really dislike elitist people. I had to deal with them a lot in the past, and most communities I've been a part of had their fair share of elitists. However, I don't think you're being an elitist. You're just saying your opinion about Cartoon Network and explaining why you have that opinion.

To me, an elitist is someone who judges others.

An elitist is someone who's a part of a group, and acts like they should know who fits and who doesn't fit into that group. An elitist judges others and complains about others within that group.

A few things I've heard from "anime elitists":
- "People who watch DBZ and Pokémon aren't real anime fans."
- "People who say they don't like DBZ are lying and just trying to be cool and elitist."
- "Anime fans who call themselves 'otaku' are stupid."
- "Most anime fans are perverts who are obsessed with Japanese culture, but I'm not that way."
- "Using '^_^' type anime faces is so uncool and stupid and I don't avoid picking on people who use them."
- "Anime other than Cowboy Bebop, Lain and [ insert a couple of "mature and deep" anime series here ] sucks and is usually stupid and made for perverts."
- "[ insert an anime title here ] is the only good anime and everything else that was made is crap."

That's only a few things. I've heard countless things from that type of people.

A good example of elitistm other than this is in the cosplay community. I've been in a lot of cosplay forums, and a lot of forum users constantly complain about overweight cosplayers or cosplayers who wear skimpy or "not beautiful enough" costumes. Instead of just talking about cosplaying, they just judged others and talked about how they were annoyed with them.. Because usually, elitist people are people who want to make themselves special.

Maybe you guys will be surprised, but I haven't seen a lot of elitism in this forum.

The main problem with the anime community, is that our culture is very different from Japanese culture and that brings problems here. In Japan, anime is mainstream.. Almost everyone has watched anime and almost everyone reads manga. Here, it's different. Even our cartoons don't have a big impact on our lives. Here, even though a lot of series are aimed towards teenagers or adults, reading comics or watching cartoons isn't something popular, and I really doubt it will ever be. Also, anime has a very negative image here. Most people I know in real life think anime is just porn or cartoons like Pokémon. I'm not saying that Pokémon is bad, but that it's a very restricted view of anime. I think this is why people dislike cartoon network. No matter what they will play on that channel, people will have a restricted view of it because anime is not something that we see on TV often and it probably won't be until a long time.

Once, I was reading a Tokyo Babylon manga at school and a girl started laughing at me and saying I was reading Pokémon. The problem isn't that she was accusing me of reading Pokémon.. But imagine you're reading a science fiction book and the person accuses you of reading a romance novel when you actually hate romance stories. ^_^;; It's kind of weird..

To those who are worried about anime becoming mainstream.. I really don't think it will ever be, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Also, anime has been on TV in Europe for a long time.. It was mainstream in the way that it played on TV as much as normal cartoons, but no one really was crazy about it and it wasn't a trendy thing with teenagers and adults. That's the difference..

Keitaro
2003-11-18, 23:22
Heres how I look at it, anime is a form of Entertiament just like movies. I think ppl think to much about it and should be watching and disscussing anime how they like. What the hell is an anime elitist? who gives a shit about them, why is this dicussion still going on. Yes they annoy us sometimes, but you have to learn to ignore them, what their looking for is attention hopfully they will realize their bad behavior and change their ways.

Radd
2003-11-22, 18:44
Heres how I look at it, anime is a form of Entertiament just like movies. I think ppl think to much about it and should be watching and disscussing anime how they like. What the hell is an anime elitist? who gives a shit about them, why is this dicussion still going on. Yes they annoy us sometimes, but you have to learn to ignore them, what their looking for is attention hopfully they will realize their bad behavior and change their ways.


I think the discussion moved on towards determining just what an entails being an 'elitist', making points that some people might think they hate elitists, yet be considered by others to be an elitist...so people can see how they themselves are being elitist, and possibly change their ways, or at least realize what they're doing. Funny how that works.

monpuchi
2003-11-22, 19:32
personally, i dont like to see CN playing some shows because they totally destroy it most of the time. i could care less if a million other people see it, though. the anime would still be just as good/bad.

on the other hand, i'm glad that CN is bringing anime to the fans. its safe to say that a lot of people have seen Trigun but that doesnt mean that i think it sucks just because i saw it before all of them and now its mainstream.....i guess you guys were right about that type of person being an elitist, but we're bound to have 'em.

but, like any group of people, you cant say that all (or even most) of them behave one way or another. in any case, i'm just here to enjoy anime. i could'nt care less what other people do.

EliteJounin
2003-11-22, 22:25
Heres how I look at it, anime is a form of Entertiament just like movies. I think ppl think to much about it and should be watching and disscussing anime how they like. What the hell is an anime elitist? who gives a shit about them, why is this dicussion still going on. Yes they annoy us sometimes, but you have to learn to ignore them, what their looking for is attention hopfully they will realize their bad behavior and change their ways.

Not that im siding with elitists, but i dont entirely believe that they are looking for attention. Although its stupid that they say or do the stuff that the other people have posted in the past. They just speak their mind like the rest of us do. The only thing that is different is that whatever they say is negative about a certain topic, mostly.

asaqe
2003-11-23, 02:26
http://cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/gentopic.asp?board=2000120

this board is a somewhat an example of how elitism has runned over what was once life you have to be careful when you join, you must Never speak of supporting 4kids or you will awaken bandit ken's wrath and beware of a troll name shiningpikablu I am afraid 4kids have infected him and made him some what more supporting of that company anyway anime board users safe blessings on your journey to restore the board to a whole new life

Fronzel
2003-11-23, 05:08
Why's that?

Tabiree
2003-11-23, 10:19
this board is a somewhat an example of how elitism has runned over what was once life you have to be careful when you join, you must Never speak of supporting 4kids or you will awaken bandit ken's wrath and beware of a troll name shiningpikablu I am afraid 4kids have infected him and made him some what more supporting of that company anyway anime board users safe blessings on your journey to restore the board to a whole new life

huh? Punctuation, PLEASE

I would say something, bu this topic sounds like a broken record. Put your justifications away and stop caring.

asaqe
2003-11-23, 13:28
huh? Punctuation, PLEASE

I would say something, bu this topic sounds like a broken record. Put your justifications away and stop caring.

I apologize for my lack of punctuation. But the plauge of elitism is pretty sevre ther I am just asking if some users here would spread the knowledge of proper respect to other boards.

Gaara11
2003-11-23, 13:36
"Anime Elitist" is a stupid term made up by stupid people. If you like anime, you like anime period. Don't try to categorize!

Kurara
2003-11-23, 14:36
I think the discussion moved on towards determining just what an entails being an 'elitist', making points that some people might think they hate elitists, yet be considered by others to be an elitist...so people can see how they themselves are being elitist, and possibly change their ways, or at least realize what they're doing. Funny how that works.

Well, if you were talking about my post.. ^^; Personally, I don't think I'm an elitist. I was just saying my opinion on the topic... What I was trying to point out is that.. Yeah, there is elitism in the anime community.. But it can be much worse in some other communities that I've seen.. And I'm really glad it hasn't gotten to this point yet in this forum. Also I was explaining why some people don't like Cartoon Network.

EliteJounin
2003-11-24, 00:46
"Anime Elitist" is a stupid term made up by stupid people. If you like anime, you like anime period. Don't try to categorize!

Ahh... i like the way you think, my friend. :) Yet, people judge others anyway.

Iron Monkey
2003-11-24, 02:10
I've also noticed that once something previously in a niche market obtains any sort of success, it is shunned by it's once most loyal fans. And that's not just anime. It can be movies, video games, and music.

For example, back in my punk rock days, when Green Day and the Offspring were nobodies, you'd have the few "purists" who supported them. But once these groups found success, they're labelled as "sellouts" by these same purists. It's like they hate it when the things they like succeed, which is, to me, kinda stupid.

And that's bascially the same thing with anime. I don't know if these people feel threatened or what, but it's all very silly. I tend not to care what people like or dislike. As long as I know what I like, that's all that really matters. If they're into anime, that's fine. If they're not, that's fine too. But don't act like you're better than others just because "you saw the show fansubbed way before it even hit TV". Everyone starts from somewhere. If it's TV edited dubbed anime, then so be it. I don't think it's ever really bad for the genre. I say, the more exposure, the better.

method
2003-11-24, 03:05
They are out there passing judgement first prime example from the ANN mb
I am getting SO tired of Cartoon Network putting all of "my shows" all over the tube! I get into anime, and buy the dvds and complete sets, mangas and figs too... and then FLCL appears on CN and they loop it and loop it and loop it for freakin like 2 months straight ! And it's only 6 eps long for cryin out loud ! They showed Trigun, and some 2 episodes of EVA on some special "robot week". I am getting extremely tired of hearing all of these "common" people trying to know something about anime, and talking about the show somewhere in the middle of the storyline (where they picked up when watching it on tv). I don't like anime being COMMON! Maybe it's just a thing about me... and thats why I put this here so I can find out what other people feel. Please reply.

FMPFaN83
2003-11-24, 07:12
When fans complain about anime being on T.V.you need to relize one basic fact. Censorship is different the world over. What may be approiate in to show on T.V. in Japan may not be viewed as apporiprate by the U.S. censorship boards. (Ie. Nudity - Ever notice they never have hair, thats because Japanese censorship has deemed it inapporite to draw hair on nude bodies). Also if you don't get new people interested in Anime whose going to support the industry in your particular country. For example online bookstores based in North America sell anime related mechandise only because there is enough demand for it. *L* no demand they wont supply it, so I guess we need to take the good with the bad. If you don't like the way they present it on T.V. don't watch it.
LOL this was suposed to be a post not an essay, whoops :eyespin:

Sepiraph
2003-11-25, 01:00
"Anime Elitist" is a stupid term made up by stupid people. If you like anime, you like anime period. Don't try to categorize!

Well said, I'd rather just enjoy things than to worry about elitism or anything stupid like that. I think it's wiser to stop worrying so much about what other people think and just enjoy the things that u like.

Keitaro
2003-11-25, 01:03
Well said, I'd rather just enjoy things than to worry about elitism or anything stupid like that. I think it's wiser to stop worrying so much about what other people think and just enjoy the things that u like.

I agree with you and gaara11 I dont understand why everyone is worrying about it your only wasting time talking about it when you can be discussioning and watching anime that you like.

Zelgadis
2003-11-25, 04:02
For the sake of sounding like an elitist here, let me take the high road. If we show on television good or bad dub, and good or bad editing. Why would this not be good? It introduces something new to the audience. Albeit the younger audience. Maybe someone needs to suggest to the networks something for an older audience. Simpsons, Dilbert, South Park, etc were never intended for the younger audiences. So how about suggesting some older audience anime dramas and comedies. Personally I am partial to the Slayers series. I know there are others and better ones that would wow the audience.

Unfortunately, the networks are targeting specific audiences. Therefore, you really need to be careful what you suggest to be aired. Cartoon Network, Comedy Central and others are looking for programs that will draw a specific audience. Other Networks are much more picky what they show. What anime could possibly slide inbetween the major networks' re-runs and be popular enough to stay on the air?

Kurara
2003-11-25, 21:01
Well, personally I don't think it's good or bad. I think it's very good that they play anime on TV, but I don't like how they make something out of anime that doesn't actually represent what anime really is.. [ X_X Maybe I don't make sense ::hides:: ]
I don't see anything wrong with watching Cartoon Network or anime on TV, though. ^^; If I had CN I'd probably watch it a lot..