Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Kairin

2011-12-02, 08:22

Welcome to the discussion thread for Shakugan no Shana III, Episode 9.

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Game8910

2011-12-02, 12:05

I only managed to see the screenshots for the episode but it looks like its going to be really really good!
AWWW YEAH SHANA IS BACK!! Looks like there is plenty of action this week as well

Key Board

2011-12-02, 14:13

so what happens, when the sharpest sword meets the indestructible shield?

the shield loses horribly

Fragment Of Heaven truly deserves the alias of "monster".

Anyway, it was the first episode that I actually liked of this third season. I'm sick of Shana being treated like dutch wife.

Sakai Yuji

2011-12-02, 14:38

Talk about fast subs, Im going to watch it now.

Game8910

2011-12-02, 15:05

Now that I watched it with subs...this is the second episode of this season after ep 4 that I give a 10.

The action was great, the atmosphere was great, the music was as always also great!

The scene with Shana trying to move after being knocked down and then calling her sword was so well done I had chills watching it, that doesnt happen often (well on other series it doesnt). Watching Tenmoku Ikko reanimate itself from Nietono no Shana was also just amazing, this really is one of my fav episodes of the whole series so far! Next week cannot come soon enough!!

Proto

2011-12-02, 15:39

The episode is available officially in niconico (http://ch.niconico.com/channel/ch60166), for those in the US and Canada.

serenade_beta

2011-12-02, 18:22

Phew, I thought those two female Rinne were going to a monster mouth or something like that because they were covering it, like that character from Mortal Combat, but it turns out that their mouths were normal too.
Kawaii!
Vote for best characters this seasons.

Shana going Higurashi and a Lion and then the next episode having a Horse.
Fun, these are.

Silverwyrm

2011-12-02, 18:30

ok I'm impatient if someone can pm the answer to this that has read/knows about the novel

Did fecor bite it there or not?

elleinad00

2011-12-02, 20:11

That was a great episode- 10/10!

some combat modes go Rebecca! go Khamsin!......
Shana desperately killing the dinzen that gave me chills..
Shana in never-thought-I-would-hear-her-scream-like-that. :twitch: (that gave me reason of hating Yuji for what he had done to Shana.. :mad: )
Tenmuko Ikko-san!!

and oh yeah okaerinasai~ Empatsu Shakugan no Uchite, Shana!! :hyper-^v^:

Senshigeia

2011-12-02, 20:57

And... first 10 in the season!

Loved when Tenmoku-iko gave Nietano back! Seeing Wilhelmina, Rebecca and Khamsin acting like that was awesome too. Shana screaming like that gave me the creeps, but she must have edured those Rinne a lot!
Anyway, I can't wait for the next episode...

alvinkhorfire

2011-12-02, 21:26

Yes, more of these episodes please, J. C. Staff. Stay faithful to the novels and keep them coming. :D

The scene with Shana trying to move after being knocked down and then calling her sword was so well done I had chills watching it, that doesnt happen often (well on other series it doesnt).
Yes, some of us are trying to cheer her up, urging her to make another step to escape from that Rinne. It is the state of being so helpless that drove her to yearn for her power and her sword. Eventually, it is very relieving to see Shana regaining her power. Beware, Yuji. Shana wants to seek a rematch. ;)

Shana yawning in the second eyecatch is definitely priceless. :)

Instead of flesh and bone, the Rinne escorting Shana is made of stone? :twitch:

Khamsin manifesting himself as a stone golem-like creature just reminds me of Megazord from Power Rangers. While Khamsin and Rebecca have a great time blowing up Seireiden, Wilhelmina utilized a spell to make her to become invisible, which was a far more subtle approach.

So, what happened to Tenmoku Ikko after he returned to Nietono no Shana to Shana? Just disappeared and returned to be a part of the sword again? Can Shana summon him again as needed?

What is the deal with Rebecca removing Balar from her wrist? I thought that she was about to utilize her trump card or her more powerful attack. And yet, subsequent scene seems to show that she did not do anything significant. Why is it so? :confused:

ars89

2011-12-02, 21:56

Wow like how they used the path that connects the castles. Action was awesome this week as well. Best scene imo was when Shana was struggling to move and call her sword. Having Tenmoku back for a little was great. Did Fecor just get taken out? Also did Khamshin just break the mirror leaving Yuji and the trinity trapped in there? Yes Shana is back!

alvinkhorfire

2011-12-02, 22:02

Also did Khamshin just break the mirror leaving Yuji and the trinity trapped in there?
Not really, Khamsin's attack did not destroy the God gate, instead it punctured Crypta, the camouflage concealing Seireiden from being seen outside. After it was punctured, you can see the clear blue sky.

~Yami~

2011-12-03, 01:19

cool!!!!
rocket punch and booster.... that's awesome, old man!!!

nice to see Fecor got owned by berserk samurai.... and the mirror broke!

that scene when Tenmoku Ikko give back nietono is very good.... so Shana can turn to 'enpatsu shakugan no uchite' mode without Alastor???

lightbringer

2011-12-03, 01:48

I was really bored watching this. And it doesn't help that I am actually rooting for the Bal Masque team which got their asses handed to them, although Fecor did well to hold out as long as he did. But obviously he has no plot armor against Deus-Ex-Ikko. Shana dismantling that Rinne really bothered me, too. I was hoping they'd skip over that but no such luck.

Excorsism

2011-12-03, 02:51

So how strong is Nietono-no-Shana really? lol

Anyway, glad to have delicious red haired Shana again.

kokwai4869

2011-12-03, 03:02

What a great episode. Thumbs up with 10/10 votes, even thou i despise the way that yuuji turns bad. Still love shakugan no shana, and the white dress wore by Shana is really Moeeeee~~~~~~ Looking forward to the next episode and hopefully yuuji will turn back as he used to be.

Essa Maneira

2011-12-03, 04:34

great episode, i vote 10/10..
my fave part is... when Shana went on a berserk just to break that rinne's stonehead. there's a really strong emotion on her back just to call her nietono and then tenmoku summoned from the sword...
and the white dress wore by Shana is really Moeeeee~~~~~~
love it, and it is in the OP.. :D:D

yindesu

2011-12-03, 06:08

...to Fecor? :(

Key Board

2011-12-03, 07:39

Fecor is dead

very very dead

alvinkhorfire

2011-12-03, 09:34

so Shana can turn to 'enpatsu shakugan no uchite' mode without Alastor???

Shana can utilize her Flame Haze power without the presence of her Cocytus, which (in Shana's case) takes the form of a pendant.

Here is additional information from Kinny Riddle's (http://forums.animesuki.com/member.php?u=16187) Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1204573#post1204573):
Crimson Lords communicate with their Flame Haze via a Device (Jinki) (I forgot what it's actually called, can someone help?) It comes in any shape the Flame Haze desires. (Shana chooses a pendant for Alastor, Margery a book for Marchosias, Wilhelmina a ribbon for Tiamat, and Khamshin a hand ornament for Behemoth) These Devices act as the eyes and ears of the Flame Haze in our physical world, and can be summoned (teleport) any time even when its not physically by the Flame Haze's side.

In other words, the pendant only stores Alastor's conscience (his brain, to put it simply), but the main body of Alastor and thus his strength are stored inside Shana's body, which acts as a vessel to store the massive existence of Alastor.

I would suggest that anyone, who is the new to this anime or requires a refresher course on this anime, takes a quick read through the Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread which is very informative for anyone. :)

Elf song

2011-12-03, 10:03

I think he asks about the sword.
It's indestructible as far as I know, so did Shintetsu Nyoi.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/yuki-tuki/Rinne.jpg

Marcus H.

2011-12-03, 10:05

I also remember that the Nietono no Shana is an anti-spell (take note, not anti-flame like Azure) sword. Not sure tho.

RJ TAYLER

2011-12-03, 12:00

This continues, what I am hoping for, a splendid curtain call season for that famous flame haze. I hope the pace does not let up now that we are approaching the 'middle eight' of a season. Loving it all over again so far too. Good to see 'our girl' in fine form as well.

Rie K gets the "hat trick'' again this week with P4A, IM@AS and "Shana" all scoring goals a plenty.

Rava

2011-12-03, 12:57

...to Fecor? :(

Pretty sure that unlike Shana, Tenmoku is immune to spells too. So a sword that can cut through spells + a body immune to spells + Tenmoku is attacking in your direction + Magnesia going away = Goodbye, Fecor...

I was pretty much cheering when Tenmoku started his path of pwnage. :)

Rising Dragon

2011-12-03, 13:59

Has the Nietono-no-Shana always been able to eat existence like it did whenever Tenmoku Ikku killed a Denizen?

Deathscyther

2011-12-03, 15:00

9/10. Great episode once again!:)

While Khamsin and Rebecca are being all flashy, Wilhelmina seems to be using a spell which makes her invisible. I guess this means that Khamsin and Rebecca are a diversion while Wilhelmina is trying to find Shana.

Shana was completely helpless again this episode. This shows the difference in power between humans and flame hazes/guze no tomogara. The scene where she couldn't find the strength to stand up was very powerful.

She just needed something to get her powers back. One chance, one moment was all she needed. And that chance came when she called out for her sword with everything she had. And her call was answered. The sword came to her....in the form of Tenmoku Ikko. So he was still in Nientono no Shana after all.

Since Nientono no Shana can cut though Unrestricted Spells, Fecor didn't even stand a chance against Tenmoku Ikko. His magnesia was cancelled and he was cut down. Too bad, since I liked his character/ability.

Now that Shana has her powers back, we will finally get to see her back in action again. She'll have to get stronger in order to beat Yuji though, so let's see how she's planning to combine her 'two sides'.

Seireiden lost the camouflage, so now the other flame haze will be able to find it as well. Shana, Wilhelmina, Khamsin and Rebbeca, combined with outside help will be able to destroy everything there if Yuji and the others don't return soon. I wonder if they'll return soon.

Can't wait for the next episode!

Ec1ge

2011-12-03, 17:14

10/10 :')

One hell of a beautifully done episode with the most unexpected twist of Tenmoku Ikko being summoned & cutting through Fecor's Magnesia. :'D

alvinkhorfire

2011-12-03, 19:29

I also remember that the Nietono no Shana is an anti-spell (take note, not anti-flame like Azure) sword. Not sure tho.
@Marcus H.
I believe that the following text from Shana Wikia should be rewritten. Source (http://shakugan.wikia.com/wiki/Nietono_no_Shana)
Shana brings up the full potential of the power of the Nietono no Shana, as she was able to make the blade sprout flames, while others who have wielded the blade, such as Sorath and its previous owner Tenmoku Ikko were unable to.
As you said, the katana is anti-spell, but it cannot be used to sprout flames by itself, when it is used by others. Correct me if I am wrong. The flame itself originates from Shana, thus only Shana can make the katana release flame.

On a side note, Shana was certainly terrified when the Rinne kept holding onto her leg, like a mindless zombie. :upset: Certainly a horrifying experience anyone of us would not want to endure.

Marcus H.

2011-12-03, 20:09

Noted and will be rewritten soon.

Silverwyrm

2011-12-03, 23:59

Fecor is dead

very very dead

If so then meh, kinda felt like an "easy way" to get rid of him because the impregnable defense was troublesome to the story, not to mention his entire figuring things out process was then meaningless, since it was just him.

Cosmic Eagle

2011-12-04, 02:38

The insert that plays when Shana regains her powers is so fitting....

I also remember that the Nietono no Shana is an anti-spell (take note, not anti-flame like Azure) sword. Not sure tho.

Yes....

I think he asks about the sword.
It's indestructible as far as I know, so did Shintetsu Nyoi.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/yuki-tuki/Rinne.jpg

Well being Rinne, we can always make more of them :D

Marcus H.

2011-12-04, 03:31

Why did I feel bad seeing those Rinne get cut up Higurashi-style? ;_;

Marina2

2011-12-04, 05:13

Wait! Did Fecor died just like that???

I thought he will be one very last characters to die O.o

HayashiTakara

2011-12-04, 05:22

Why can't I help but feel that the Outlaw organization feel like the "real" badguys? :heh:

RJ TAYLER

2011-12-04, 06:45

Living up to their name, perhaps for the first time HayashiTakara?

Cosmic Eagle

2011-12-04, 06:57

In other words, the pendant only stores Alastor's conscience (his brain, to put it simply), but the main body of Alastor and thus his strength are stored inside Shana's body, which acts as a vessel to store the massive existence of Alastor.

I would suggest that anyone, who is the new to this anime or requires a refresher course on this anime, takes a quick read through the Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread which is very informative for anyone. :)

His actual form is in Guze actually...all Flame Haze are like that

Tenpa Jyosai just lets him manifests on this world through the Flame Haze

I was really bored watching this. And it doesn't help that I am actually rooting for the Bal Masque team which got their asses handed to them, although Fecor did well to hold out as long as he did. But obviously he has no plot armor against Deus-Ex-Ikko. Shana dismantling that Rinne really bothered me, too. I was hoping they'd skip over that but no such luck.

Remember what Decarabia says...the majority of Bal Masque's forces are being recalled to Seireiden to face the attacking Flame Hazes.

taichi-kun

2011-12-04, 09:47

What is the deal with Rebecca removing Balar from her wrist? I thought that she was about to utilize her trump card or her more powerful attack. And yet, subsequent scene seems to show that she did not do anything significant. Why is it so? :confused:

It seems to me that the fight was interrupted when rebecca was going to use all her power or maybe JC ommited the fight....

Fecor was one of my favourites... he died so easily.

klare

2011-12-04, 10:00

what an eps, we learn the secrets of the 2 cities in the sky, Shana's katana can move on its own, and the gate being destroyed by a rocket punch launched from a mecha made of rocks

Shana has been playing princess for too long, surely she will release her anger on those trying to stop her :)

anyway the defense inside Seirei-den seems weak, really weak...

Rising Dragon

2011-12-04, 13:08

Can someone please answer my question? ._.

Has the Nietono-no-Shana always been able to eat existence like it did whenever Tenmoku Ikku killed a Denizen?

Ec1ge

2011-12-04, 14:15

Can someone please answer my question? ._.

I dont think so.
When Tenmoku Ikko had the Nietono No Shana (before giving it to Shana), PoE was always absorbed through his mouth.

Key Board

2011-12-04, 14:22

Has the Nietono-no-Shana always been able to eat existence like it did whenever Tenmoku Ikku killed a Denizen?

In the 2nd season he swallowed them whole

but yes, he has always been able to eat POE from denizens

Tenmoku is a torch. It's the only way for him to keep existing in this world

Rising Dragon

2011-12-04, 14:47

So it might have something to do with Nietono-no-Shana having a proper master in this case, since Tenmoku Ikku wasn't really that sword's master back then.

Essa Maneira

2011-12-04, 19:18

anyway the defense inside Seirei-den seems weak, really weak...

too late on Fecor's realization about the passage between Sereiden and Tendokyu.:)

Giriath

2011-12-04, 20:41

Ugh, god I really don't like Shakugan no Shana. It's all about creating drama and action, and almost never does it in any clever way. Actually, I find most of the drama and action to be completely without thought, to the point that it sometimes don't even make any sense. Let me tell of some examples I found in this episode.

Since being imprisoned, Shana has been desperate for a chance to counter-attack and escape. If she knew summoning Nietono no Shana was an option, she would have done so long ago (optimally when Serieden was left almost deserted, if her being consistently capable of thought--and not just when it suits the story--was an option), yet she's not at all surprised when just shouting its name makes it appear in the form of Tenmokku Ikko (who is an armor apart from the sword by the way, but to hell with consistency when there can be drama).

Shana appears seriously injured after the blast in the corridor--perhaps even unable to move her lower body, as she spends two minutes of our time crawling on her forearms. Then when the maid-rinne grabs her she is able to spring up, go ape-shit on it and then stand up and appear fine when Tenmokku Ikko appears.

Perhaps the most puzzling occurrence in this episode is that Tenmokku Ikko was able to cut through Fecor's Magnecia and kill him...I mean WTF. Very powerful flame haze haven't been able to do so in the past, but suddenly when it's important to the story that he die, BAM! he's dead. I suppose using those wings on his back to fly away from the slow-moving suit of armor (oh, wait; it suddenly learned to run in this episode) wouldn't occur to a character that is destined to die for there to be more drama and action.

Maybe the authors are unable to create characters that can consistently think on even a basic level, let alone be smart or behave appropriately to their background and experiences, from which one can infer a roughly accurate portrayal of a how person might act (not brain-dead, in the case of most these flame haze and guze no tomogara--most of which have lived a looong time, learned a lot and experienced much).

Or maybe the intended audience is 13-15 year old boys who the authors for some reason expect will be unable to understand why their story and their characterization especially, is awful.

Marcus H.

2011-12-04, 21:18

Or maybe the intended audience is 13-15 year old boys who the authors for some reason expect will be unable to understand why their story and their characterization especially, is awful.

That's quite an insulting generalization you got there.

Ec1ge

2011-12-04, 21:25

relentlessflame

2011-12-04, 21:33

I think the generalization was unnecessary and blunt, but I think it's no better if people attack him and tell him that he just shouldn't watch it either. If people would like to address the points, I think that would be reasonable, but otherwise it may be better to just leave it. People are allowed their opinion.

Giriath

2011-12-04, 21:33

That's quite an insulting generalization you got there.

I'm suggesting the authors might be making the generalization I suspect you think I intended to make.

I'm fully aware many 13-15 year old boys would be able to analyze and criticize a story such as this quite well.

relentlessflame

2011-12-04, 21:40

I'm suggesting the authors might be making the generalization I suspect you think I intended to make.

I'm fully aware many 13-15 year old boys would be able to analyze and criticize a story such as this quite well.To be clear, that's not the insulting part of the generalization. It's the insinuation that people who don't find the story and characterizations to be "awful" as you do must be childish and unable to analyse and criticize, like "smart people will agree the story sucks". It's a very unwise coda to add to your opinion, and you would have been better off omitting it.

I'd ask that further posts focus on the actual arguments or just let it be.

Ec1ge

2011-12-04, 21:41

Marcus H.

2011-12-04, 21:44

Okay , let's get this shit over with, shall we?

Since being imprisoned, Shana has been desperate for a chance to counter-attack and escape. If she knew summoning Nietono no Shana was an option, she would have done so long ago (optimally when Serieden was left almost deserted, if her being consistently capable of thought--and not just when it suits the story--was an option), yet she's not at all surprised when just shouting its name makes it appear in the form of Tenmokku Ikko (who is an armor apart from the sword by the way, but to hell with consistency when there can be drama).

Consider the fact that the reason why she was there was because the first human (albeit a Mystes) she became friendly with... that she loved probably more than Wilhelmina her foster mother... beat her to a bloody mess and isolated her from the battlefield.

Based on the episodes before the Ninth, she was shaken by this, and she felt helpless since she has her powers sealed and Yuji can just rip her to shreds if she makes a mistake (not that he would do such a thing, mind you).

Shana appears seriously injured after the blast in the corridor--perhaps even unable to move her lower body, as she spends two minutes of our time crawling on her forearms. Then when the maid-rinne grabs her she is able to spring up, go ape-shit on it and then stand up and appear fine when Tenmokku Ikko appears.

Adrenaline rush, fueled by fear.

Perhaps the most puzzling occurrence in this episode is that Tenmokku Ikko was able to cut through Fecor's Magnecia and kill him...I mean WTF. Very powerful flame haze haven't been able to do so in the past, but suddenly when it's important to the story that he die, BAM! he's dead. I suppose using those wings on his back to fly away from the slow-moving suit of armor (oh, wait; it suddenly learned to run in this episode) wouldn't occur to a character that is destined to die for there to be more drama and action.

The Nietono no Shana has been described as an anti-magic sword. Also, Tenmoku Ikko has a reputation for singlehandedly killing off Crimson Denizens. This fact is probably known even by the Trinity.

Maybe the authors are unable to create characters that can consistently think on even a basic level, let alone be smart or behave appropriately to their background and experiences, from which one can infer a roughly accurate portrayal of a how person might act (not brain-dead, in the case of most these flame haze and guze no tomogara--most of which have lived a looong time, learned a lot and experienced much).

That's poor judgment of the characters' personality. So this means that the author cannot create a truly "human" character, who has inherent flaws that can make that character unique from the rest of the cast?

Kristen

2011-12-04, 21:47

Giriath

2011-12-04, 21:58

To be clear, that's not the insulting part of the generalization. It's the insinuation that people who don't find the story and characterizations to be "awful" as you do must be childish and unable to analyse and criticize, like "smart people will agree the story sucks". It's a very unwise coda to add to your opinion, and you would have been better off omitting it.

I'd ask that further posts focus on the actual arguments or just let it be.

Someone able to analyze and criticize Shakugan no Shana would agree that the story and characterization has many inconsistencies, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would think it "sucks".

Perhaps I should have wrote that the story might be intended to appeal most to those who don't notice or disregard these inconsistencies, as it is more my own opinion that they make it below average quality.

That doesn't mean though that I can't occasionally find Shana endearing, or the drama and action exciting.

Marcus H.

2011-12-04, 21:59

Kristen, You forgot Friagne. ;_;

Rising Dragon

2011-12-04, 22:00

Kristen, You forgot Friagne. ;_;

Friagne died before those brats, though.

Marcus H.

2011-12-04, 22:02

^ You have a point there. :p

EDIT:

Someone able to analyze and criticize Shakugan no Shana would agree that the story and characterization has many inconsistencies, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would think it "sucks".

Perhaps I should have wrote that the story might be intended to appeal most to those who don't notice or disregard these inconsistencies, as it is more my own opinion that they make it below average quality.

Well, if you do belong to the kind of people who are "able to analyze and criticize Shakugan no Shana", then you should express your views in the General Discussion thread or the Light Novels thread. The thread needs to be back on track, you know.

relentlessflame

2011-12-04, 22:20

Someone able to analyze and criticize Shakugan no Shana would agree that the story and characterization has many inconsistencies, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would think it "sucks".

Perhaps I should have wrote that the story might be intended to appeal most to those who don't notice or disregard these inconsistencies, as it is more my own opinion that they make it below average quality.You're not really helping yourself here, despite my trying to give you a number of outs. You've again precluded the possibility that the story and characterization may not have the inconsistencies that you're arguing exist, and insinuated that people who don't see it your way may be less discriminating than you are... which is not exactly a fair or complementary way of framing an argument. This is why I'm saying your argument itself would have been stronger if you could have just left that part out (and not clarified it, since you didn't make it better).

In any case, the criticism itself has been duly noted.

Well, if you do belong to the kind of people who are "able to analyze and criticize Shakugan no Shana", then you should express your views in the General Discussion thread or the Light Novels thread. The thread needs to be back on track, you know.The original points were about Episode 9, so it makes sense for them to be in this thread. I don't think the points themselves were off-topic... though admittedly this tangent about the way he phrased things is, and hopefully that's over now. (This time, I chose to explain it rather than either deleting the post or allowing a flamewar to erupt.)

Giriath

2011-12-04, 22:30

That's poor judgment of the characters' personality. So this means that the author cannot create a truly "human" character, who has inherent flaws that can make that character unique from the rest of the cast?

I don't know. That's an absurdly difficult thing for any author to accomplish, in any medium, and certainly not what I demand of a work of fiction to consider it above average.

I don't think it's a poor judgment of character to think it odd that Shana, who has trained to fight or fought Guze no Tomogara all her life, would be so frightened she was unable to move in that corridor. Or that she would hesitate to make every attempt of escape once the threat of the Trinity and Yuji (who she still may not be in a correct state of mind to fight) was gone.

And true enough, once they were she focused only on finding a chance to do so. Since she never once thought of summoning Nietono no Shana, I think we can safely conclude she did not know that was an option. That's why I think it's weird that she wouldn't be surprised that her desperate and last resort attempt actually worked.

It would have been a simple thing of amazement and maybe some self-indulgent gloating that the awesome sword is hers.

And if Tenmokku Ikko was really able to kill Fecor, at least credit him with a fight scene! I guess a prolonged fight would have looked silly though, with Fecor being the lone combatant with the ability of flight. But maybe Fecor could have considered the threat of Tenmokku Ikko bringing Shana the sword worth the risk of diving in for an attack, only to be unexpectedly crippled and defeated. I would have liked to see something like that though, instead of Tenmokku Ikko just walking through him (I guess he was just unlucky to be in the direct path Tenmokku Ikko was taking to Shana?).

Marcus H.

2011-12-04, 22:37

There wouldn't be much of a fight scene if Tenmoku Ikko can slice through Magnesia like a knife on butter. :heh:

Giriath

2011-12-04, 22:48

There wouldn't be much of a fight scene if Tenmoku Ikko can slice through Magnesia like a knife on butter. :heh:

No, but at least there would be a scene.

Slick_rick

2011-12-05, 00:31

I don't know. That's an absurdly difficult thing for any author to accomplish, in any medium, and certainly not what I demand of a work of fiction to consider it above average.

I don't think it's a poor judgment of character to think it odd that Shana, who has trained to fight or fought Guze no Tomogara all her life, would be so frightened she was unable to move in that corridor. Or that she would hesitate to make every attempt of escape once the threat of the Trinity and Yuji (who she still may not be in a correct state of mind to fight) was gone.

The problem wasn't her state of mind but in fact the state of her powers. She was basically just a normal human even if they thought she might try something she could be caught and overpowered by the weakest of enemies still there. I doubt if cared they whether she'd tried to make every attempt to escape which I think the character grasped.

And true enough, once they were she focused only on finding a chance to do so. Since she never once thought of summoning Nietono no Shana, I think we can safely conclude she did not know that was an option. That's why I think it's weird that she wouldn't be surprised that her desperate and last resort attempt actually worked.

I did say she was surprised. If you look at the scene again you'll see with the intake of breath and the movement of her head when she heard something coming down the hall does denote some level of surprise. She probably only realized what happened when she recognized Tenmoku Ikko.

And if Tenmokku Ikko was really able to kill Fecor, at least credit him with a fight scene! I guess a prolonged fight would have looked silly though, with Fecor being the lone combatant with the ability of flight. But maybe Fecor could have considered the threat of Tenmokku Ikko bringing Shana the sword worth the risk of diving in for an attack, only to be unexpectedly crippled and defeated. I would have liked to see something like that though, instead of Tenmokku Ikko just walking through him (I guess he was just unlucky to be in the direct path Tenmokku Ikko was taking to Shana?).

A fight scene is completely unnecessary for such a minor character. You might prefer it but it adds nothing to the story whether he died on screen or off. He is a non-combat enemy; someone who would probably get killed by any third-rate flame haze if he did engage in combat.

alvinkhorfire

2011-12-05, 05:31

His actual form is in Guze actually...all Flame Haze are like that

Tenpa Jyosai just lets him manifests on this world through the Flame Haze

I understand your point, but the problem is that it will be inconsistent with my understanding thus far.

Here are some statements from Gekijouban Shakugan no Shana, the Shana movie which, as we all agree, are more faithful to the novel:

At 1 hour 4 minutes 58 seconds, Friagne said: "A Flame Haze uses its body as a container for a King of Guze to reside within."
At 1 hour 5 minutes 50 seconds, Friagne added: "it (the King of Guze) has no other choice but to return to Guze."
If the King of Guze, as you said, is in Guze, it needs not to return to Guze, since it is already in Guze. So, I cannot fit in your explantion into my existing understanding thus far. :confused: Perhaps, I have interpreted it wrongly?

erneiz_hyde

2011-12-05, 06:39

I understand your point, but the problem is that it will be inconsistent with my understanding thus far.

Here are some statements from Gekijouban Shakugan no Shana, the Shana movie which, as we all agree, are more faithful to the novel:

If the King of Guze, as you said, is in Guze, it needs not to return to Guze, since it is already in Guze. So, I cannot fit in your explantion into my existing understanding thus far. :confused: Perhaps, I have interpreted it wrongly?

It could still mean its consciousness will return to Guze.

Liddo-kun

2011-12-05, 06:46

This episode surprised me. At preview of episode 8, I thought the scenes with Tenmokku Ikko would be a flashback like how Shana remembered Merihim. But to my surprise, the invincible Mystes is back in action, and he kicks butt! - until he found the way back to his master at least. :)

Just wondering if Tenmokku Ikko intentionally went to Fecor first before going to Shana. Or did Fecor just happened to be in his path to Shana. :confused:

Another thing that surprise me in this episode is how much Shana trusts her sword. Just hold out her hand like that, trusting that he cut only the chain and not her hand. Maybe it's because they've been together for a long time already, so she has an idea on what he would do.

Cosmic Eagle

2011-12-05, 06:48

Perhaps the most puzzling occurrence in this episode is that Tenmokku Ikko was able to cut through Fecor's Magnecia and kill him...I mean WTF. Very powerful flame haze haven't been able to do so in the past, but suddenly when it's important to the story that he die, BAM! he's dead. I suppose using those wings on his back to fly away from the slow-moving suit of armor (oh, wait; it suddenly learned to run in this episode) wouldn't occur to a character that is destined to die for there to be more drama and action.

Do you even know what Nietono no Shana is? Or just shooting off without knowing the whole picture?

Friagne died before those brats, though.

Am I the only one in both the Japanese and English otaku community who found the Aizens tragically endearing...

I understand your point, but the problem is that it will be inconsistent with my understanding thus far.

Here are some statements from Gekijouban Shakugan no Shana, the Shana movie which, as we all agree, are more faithful to the novel:

If the King of Guze, as you said, is in Guze, it needs not to return to Guze, since it is already in Guze. So, I cannot fit in your explantion into my existing understanding thus far. :confused: Perhaps, I have interpreted it wrongly?

When it means container for the Lord, it means the manifestation or avatar if you will....

it's not full on posession per se....

Example, Asiz and Alastor. They do not manifest their entire existence with their Flame Hazes except in extreme circumstances. IE they don't fully cross over into this world unless the shit hits the fan

And if Tenmokku Ikko was really able to kill Fecor, at least credit him with a fight scene! I guess a prolonged fight would have looked silly though, with Fecor being the lone combatant with the ability of flight. But maybe Fecor could have considered the threat of Tenmokku Ikko bringing Shana the sword worth the risk of diving in for an attack, only to be unexpectedly crippled and defeated. I would have liked to see something like that though, instead of Tenmokku Ikko just walking through him (I guess he was just unlucky to be in the direct path Tenmokku Ikko was taking to Shana?).

But there will be fighting alright.....

from all combatants later

SkyFlames

2011-12-05, 07:24

Shana appears seriously injured after the blast in the corridor--perhaps even unable to move her lower body, as she spends two minutes of our time crawling on her forearms. Then when the maid-rinne grabs her she is able to spring up, go ape-shit on it and then stand up and appear fine when Tenmokku Ikko appears.

'Fear' is the answer there. She was going to be taken by the Rinne and possibely die there if she stayed too long. Adrenaline shots through your body and you get new forces. Also she wasn't that much of incapacitated, just dazed by the explosion and the sudden collapse. As she said, 'she needed to carry on', for a Flame Haze that has fought countless situations like that one, it's not a surprise to see that she managed to recover...

Perhaps the most puzzling occurrence in this episode is that Tenmokku Ikko was able to cut through Fecor's Magnecia and kill him...I mean WTF. Very powerful flame haze haven't been able to do so in the past, but suddenly when it's important to the story that he die, BAM! he's dead. I suppose using those wings on his back to fly away from the slow-moving suit of armor (oh, wait; it suddenly learned to run in this episode) wouldn't occur to a character that is destined to die for there to be more drama and action.

Nietono no Shana is, as described in the novels, a high class weapon. It can cut through anything, be it an object or a spell. And it will definitely never break. Plus, Tenmokku Ikko is immune to all kind of Unrestricted Spells, so I'm guessing that this two things combined made the job of defeating his enemies a kids' game.

Besides, Fecor is not that powerfull. Magnesia is his only known attack so once you get pass it there isn't much of a fighter to beat. Also, Tenmokku was the fear of both, Flame Hazes and Denizens, to the point that they even got away from Asia to scape from him (before Shana's iniciation), so yes, he is pretty powerfull and Fecor didn't stand a chance.

Am I the only one in both the Japanese and English otaku community who found the Aizens tragically endearing...

I didn't found it endearing but it was a good arc , I still like Sorath's novel version better tho. They could have omitted the kissing, but well, they were the villains so they needed to be hated so their death would not be cryed.

Marcus H.

2011-12-05, 07:28

Welp, so Tenmoku Ikko is an Immovable Object and an Unstoppable Force at the same time?

First time grasping that, and it's quite shocking.

SkyFlames

2011-12-05, 07:33

Welp, so Tenmoku Ikko is an Immovable Object and an Unstoppable Force at the same time?

First time grasping that, and it's quite shocking.

Makes me wonder if it isn't better to summon him instead of using the blade. Immune to spells. Fast enough to cut through a whole army. Resistant to any kind of weapon.

Cosmic Eagle

2011-12-05, 08:16

I didn't found it endearing but it was a good arc , I still like Sorath's novel version better tho. They could have omitted the kissing, but well, they were the villains so they needed to be hated so their death would not be cryed.

Talking about the Aizens themselves...not the arc....

So they're incestuous....don't see why that should make them so hated though...

Welp, so Tenmoku Ikko is an Immovable Object and an Unstoppable Force at the same time?

First time grasping that, and it's quite shocking.

Bal Masque has Sydonay so it's not like they're disadvantaged....

GenjiChan

2011-12-05, 08:22

It's going to be bloody.... She just returned her "cuteness" back inside the closet.....

"Yuuji, WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU!!!!!

Kristen

2011-12-05, 08:55

^ You have a point there. :p

EDIT:

Well, if you do belong to the kind of people who are "able to analyze and criticize Shakugan no Shana", then you should express your views in the General Discussion thread or the Light Novels thread. The thread needs to be back on track, you know.

Aye. Friagne and the twins died. Everyone else was either in the past, or they're still around. And that's really a flaw of the series. I mean, Sabrac really should have died in season 2. What's the point of just showing him around in season 3? The professor should have died somewhere along the line too, but I guess that he was just brought along too early in the series in order for JC Staff to get their concluding anime original arcs. Well, Sabrac and Fecor were the ones who bugged me about not getting killed off yet, so maybe Sabrac will be going soon?

Marcus H.

2011-12-05, 09:03

Well, Sabrac's situation will change, that's for sure.

Senshigeia

2011-12-05, 09:34

I think you will find an answer for that in the novel thread...

Kristen

2011-12-05, 13:34

Don't want spoilers, so I'll pass on that. :p

Nochgo

2011-12-05, 18:39

Is it just me, or does it seem like Tenmoku is stronger than Shana with her sword? :heh: And I thought Fecor's defense cube was supposed to be something very sturdy, since the idea was supported by one of the strongest flame hazes. Tenmoku manages to slice it like butter. Would Shana with her sword be able to do the same?

And A+ to Kugimiya at Shana going crazy a$$ b!tch. Though I dunno where she got her strength to stab that rock-head to oblivion, when she barely had enough strength to crawl on the ground. Adrenaline ftw, I guess. :heh:

Marcus H.

2011-12-05, 18:49

^ Just like previously explained, Tenmoku Ikko's Mystes body was immune to all Unrestricted Spells. Adding the fact that the Nietono no Shana is an anti-magic sword makes Fecor seem like mere fodder to the Tenmoku Ikko. This is the reason why he is feared throughout Asia as the "most dangerous Mystes in existence".

Shana could slice Magnesia, but without the absolute protection from spells, she would get clobbered eventually.

Senshigeia

2011-12-05, 19:36

And A+ to Kugimiya at Shana going crazy a$$ b!tch. Though I dunno where she got her strength to stab that rock-head to oblivion, when she barely had enough strength to crawl on the ground. Adrenaline ftw, I guess. :heh:

I don't think she was struggling to move herself, but I think she was trying to get the sword, or Tenmoku Iko to wake up to get the sword to her.

Also, after I re-watched the episode, I adored it even more! I understood a lot more stuff, and I can't wait for the next one!

alvinkhorfire

2011-12-06, 00:04

So, unless they come up with a comeback for Fecor (which I really hope not...), I guess this would be the first death of any major character since like Sorath/Tiriel in season 1, right? And hopefully more are going to come, since Shana is a bit character heavy now.
The story of Season 1 and Season 2 mainly revolves around Shana, Yuji, Wilhelmina and Margery. The difference is that Season 3 will involve an all-out battle between Flame Hazes and Bal Masque. For sure, it will involve Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens from all over the world, making this anime naturally character heavy.
Is it just me, or does it seem like Tenmoku is stronger than Shana with her sword? :heh:
We all should agree that the stronger combination occurs if Tenmoku himself is using the katana, rather than Shana herself. However, if that is the case, then this anime would not be called as Shakugan no SHANA. :heh:
Has the Nietono-no-Shana always been able to eat existence like it did whenever Tenmoku Ikku killed a Denizen?
In my opinion, that is not the case. The katana acts as a conduit that channels the flame from Shana towards her opponents. For the same reason, the power of existence was channelled through the sword to Tenmoku. In short, the katana cannot consume the power of existence by itself. Correct me if I have said anything wrong.

Primary Consult

2011-12-06, 18:50

Mmm... regarding the "convenience" of Tenmoku returning the sword at that specific time (which some like Giriath have said in this thread)...

As an anime-only viewer, the impression I got from this scene was that Tenmoku (who only gives the sword to people who are strong) waited until Shana "proved" her superiority by defeating that Rinne as a weak piddling human.

Maybe I'm seeing too much into things...

Guido

2011-12-06, 21:14

I didn't expect Wilhelmina played such a wild card after the Tendo-kyu rose from its grave, but it gave to the three the element of surprise to wreak havoc when the enemy forces least expect it: within the palace of Seirei-den.

Too bad that Fecor realized something fishy to conclude that it was Tendo-kyu, because Tenmoku Ito slashed his way in search of his master.

To tell the truth, I don't see it as a convenience for Tenmoku to materialize and going havoc all his way to reach Shana. The katana and her are destined to be bounded, because as simple as it sounds Shana called for it at her most desperate time. And, I got to say, it was very richly animated all the drama they focused on Shana literally crawling her way to make her escape with just ordinary human strength while bound to the spell of the hougu wrapped around her right-arm.
It was a frenzied response watching her slamming the knife over and over on the Rinne that held her leg, because Shana knew she became vulnerable when all that ruckus rocked the Seirei-den, and still she was remaining immobile for her next course of action.