Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread [Archive]

Keroko

2011-12-11, 19:08

I'm suggesting more of a "water cooler" thread where conversations can address anything Nanoha related so such conversations won't derail threads dedicated to a specific topic.

And what exactly would we discuss in these "water cooler" threads that doesn't already have a dedicated thread, thus leading to even the water cooler thread getting the "off-topic, take it to the right thread" treatment?

Trying to shut down off-topicness in the image thread by making more threads is an exercise in futility. Image threads get into these talks because people comment on images. The only way you're ever going to stop people getting into these talks is if you stop them from commenting on images altogether.

00-Raiser

2011-12-11, 19:55

I've already given several examples. There will always be grey areas that dedicated threads don't cover.

Probably can't stop the talks from starting, but if there was a general thread there would be a place where those conversations could be taken.

00-Raiser

2011-12-11, 22:38

Well then, to kick off this thread where does everyone see the franchise going from here? After 3 seasons, 2 movies, a bunch of mangas and other stuff, where to next? It seems to be pretty successful in Japan but it hasn't had a TV anime since StrikerS. Are all the resources going only to the movies or is the series perhaps not popular enough to warrent another TV run after all? Seven Arcs has release several animes in the meantime so it's not like they can't do another TV series on top of the movies.

Maybe we'll only get brand new installments in manga form from now on. Though since they're so fond of time skipping I think they're quickly approaching (or maybe already passed) the 'best before' date and it's time they end things completely. Maybe they could drop Nanoha from the title and start over fresh, keeping the same setting with completely new people. However since a lot of the success does hinge on the already established characters, that could be less than successful.

So is it time to end things or is there still unexplored territory to venture into?

bhl88

2011-12-12, 01:25

Nanoha Vivid OVA :p then Nanoha Force OVA (or season) and maybe Gears of Destiny OVA

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-12, 01:44

Maybe a prequel series, set after the end of the Reunification War, following the establishment of the TSAB and culminating in the adoption of the new calendar.

Since that likely happened because of successfully transitioning from the use of mass-based weapons to prohibition, and a new reliance on magic-only weapons and tactics, it would be a nice counterpart to the slide seen with StrikerS and Force.

Of course, this assumes artistic priorities rather than marketing priorities, so I have no hope for it.

Tiresias

2011-12-12, 02:02

Maybe a prequel series, set after the end of the Reunification War, following the establishment of the TSAB and culminating in the adoption of the new calendar.

As if they're brave enough to make a prequel without slipping in Nanoha and/or Fate somewhere :rolleyes:

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-12, 02:07

Hence the remark at the end of my post.

itanshi1

2011-12-12, 03:35

Yeah Tsuzuki etc, they don't treat their property quite like eh starwars or star trek

Mr Coin

2011-12-12, 05:35

An OVA on Gil Graham's life in his prime would be good.

Sheba

2011-12-12, 09:07

So is it time to end things or is there still unexplored territory to venture into?
What Nanoha as a franchise needs, without going into unrealistic expectation like getting darker and edgier, is 1. A Bigger Budget. 2. A reboot. 3. Creative control with editors and checkers. 4. Less reliance on cross-media.

2 and 3 are linked. Nanoha with its character cast and universe have gotten so big that cracks, in the forms of contradictions or whatever else, started to appear. With a reboot, fans can hope something with solid foundations, like actual elaboration on the whole game of paper rock scissors, magic x anti-magic x conventional. Think about it, A's with the Materials. And that's just one of the possibilities.

4 is one fo my biggest pet peeves against the franchise, as an anime watcher I should NOT need to read the tie-in manga to get the connection between Nanoha, Subaru and a random bridge bunny who only appears five minutes in one episode, I should NOT be TOLD about Nanoha's accident, instead I should be SHOWN that accident in its grim and bleak glory. Flashbacks told like it was in StrikerS does not cut it. Also, please, stop with those timeskips. Using one too many eventually get some of the fans disconnected with the characters.

00-Raiser

2011-12-12, 10:49

One and two have already been fulfilled with the movies.

For three, Tsuzuki has total creative control over things. He's the only writer for the series. I'm sure he has editors and stuff already, but yeah a closer eye to keep things consistent would be good.

Four is really a non-issue. I know it sucks for us because we don't have access to all those materials unless some one translates them, but the show isn't made with us in mind. It's for the japanese and the japanese have easy access to all that stuff. Having cross-media isn't a problem.

Tiresias

2011-12-12, 11:26

4 is one fo my biggest pet peeves against the franchise, as an anime watcher I should NOT need to read the tie-in manga to get the connection between Nanoha, Subaru and a random bridge bunny who only appears five minutes in one episode, I should NOT be TOLD about Nanoha's accident, instead I should be SHOWN that accident in its grim and bleak glory.

This. Very much this.

Small, irrelevant slice-of-the life scenes? Fine, use Sound Stages and the manga for those.

Important scenes that gave a much large insight on a character, such as the accident or the deal with his father's near-death and the impact on her? Those are something that belonged in the main adaptation.

On a related note, there's a lot of unexplored territory to venture into just like how Star Wars EU are more than Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the droids, but everyone and their grandmother knows that the creators would never step out of that comfort zone and make a story without any appearance whatsoever of the main cast. Which is a shame because there are truckloads of story potential there: centuries of Belkan Expansionist Era, fall of the Belkan homeworld, the Unification War, pre-TSAB Midchilda, the mysteries of Alhazard, the previous Book of Darkness incident...but they can't attach nude pics of Nanoha and Fate to those stories, could they?

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-12, 11:55

I would also like a reboot of the series, though I also sadly agree that it's not going to happen, since we have the movies.

Well, a reboot in the form of OVA might be possible, like with Hellsing Ultimate. But what would they do differently that they didn't already do with the movies?

I'd like to see more of Yuuno and Raising Heart's past explored, but Tsuzuki has just given us one big off-screen hand wave with Raising Heart, and only diminished Yuuno's importance. If he really did never care before, it certainly doesn't seem like he'll care in the future.

If StrikerS and beyond get movies, we might be able to hope for more details on pre-TSAB history and the three or four or more empires duking it out, but that's the most I could hope for.

Keroko

2011-12-12, 12:19

Important scenes that gave a much large insight on a character, such as the accident or the deal with his father's near-death and the impact on her? Those are something that belonged in the main adaptation.

I'd say these two examples are good use of tie-ins. For the progression of the plot, all we needed to know was that there was an accident with Nanoha's father and herself. That's it. The finer details aren't directly relevant to the plot, so a full-blown flashback would only serve to destroy the pacing. Using tie-ins to explain the details that can't be properly explained in an anime is a perfect use of the media available.

A better example of terrible tie-ins is the whole Fate/Erio/Caro dynamic. That was never touched upon in the anime, yet essential during Fate's climactic fight. Not to mention that much of it included basic character development for Erio and Caro, two main characters in the anime, yet barely developed there at all. That is an example of terrible use of tie-ins.

As for what I'd personally like to see... I'd like to see the PSP-verse explored more. This time watching the girls grow up instead of grown up.

bhl88

2011-12-12, 12:29

I wanna see Erio go berserk (and Fate's Marshmallow Hell), Caro's past, Subaru and Teana's past... They might split the strikers movie into two or something (6 hours).

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-12, 14:03

I want to see why Yuuno took a job with the Infinity Library instead of reuniting with his family; he even did so without their permission, which technically wasnt even legal. Were they simply not on Midchilda during and after A's, and unavailable to contact wherever they had gone to dig something up?

Having the Scrya Clan come rushing onto the screen for the first time shouting about the new horror they unleashed would be a nice set-up for a new season with all the old characters, set on a new world.

00-Raiser

2011-12-12, 14:09

It's pretty clear that Scrya clan members are awared a certain amount of freedom. He likely didn't need their permission.

Skane

2011-12-12, 14:13

Yuuno's Father: "You spent years around a bevy of single beauties and you haven't even gotten to first base yet? Son, I am disappoint."

:(

ZeroIchiNi

2011-12-12, 21:54

As for what I'd personally like to see... I'd like to see the PSP-verse explored more. This time watching the girls grow up instead of grown up.

And that is one of the reason why I'm interested in the PSP-verse. However I am also worried that they might screw up this universe, and make everything "In Spite of a Nail" and they will ended up like their Strikers version. 1st Movie Manga anyone?

00-Raiser

2011-12-12, 23:12

If you'd like more of the PSP verse, well... Play the PSP games :heh:

Though in light of what Keroko said, there's always the gap between A's and StrikerS that a new installment could explore.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-12, 23:46

Exploring the PSP verse is something I can get behind. It features Hayate actually learning how to fight, for one thing. That's just not something I can see Signum letting her get away with after ten years.

But I hope they'd leave off Gears of Destiny, because I hate the idea of Reliable Time-Traveling Technology and Time Police. Time travel and alternate universes simply open too many cans of worms, especially when used by bad writers.

Besides, there's no reason to put Yuuno off until Gears of Destiny if even Chrono had Materials made from his memories, since he didn't get his Linker Core taken either!

itanshi1

2011-12-12, 23:48

although there's not much difference between dimensional travel and parallel worlds, it's just proximity |3

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-12, 23:56

although there's not much difference between dimensional travel and parallel worlds, it's just prox
Nope.

Subspace. It's just subspace travel from one solar system to another. The universe is too big for a franchise to need MULTIPLE universes, especially when you have spaceships.

itanshi1

2011-12-13, 00:45

I'd prefer that, but not sure that was the term they used.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-13, 00:53

I'd prefer that, but not sure that was the term they used.

Perhaps not, but that is effectively how it is used, so that is how I treat it.

00-Raiser

2011-12-13, 01:15

My prefered method of time travel is moving to a parallel universe that is 99% the same as your own universe, the 1% being that it's x units of time in the past/future.

No messy paradoxes that way.

itanshi1

2011-12-13, 01:20

Well, you being there causes it to do that. Although You being there means there's a world you didn't go to. Hehe

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-13, 02:03

My prefered method of time travel is moving to a parallel universe that is 99% the same as your own universe, the 1% being that it's x units of time in the past/future.

No messy paradoxes that way.

But that falls into Alternative Universe cheese and plotholes, which is nearly as bad.

Other planets are enough for other worlds.

itanshi1

2011-12-13, 04:23

Hey best part, if you make a mistake, try again :3

Keroko

2011-12-13, 06:43

If you'd like more of the PSP verse, well... Play the PSP games :heh:

But I want moar! I want manga's, I want anime's!

Nope.

Subspace. It's just subspace travel from one solar system to another. The universe is too big for a franchise to need MULTIPLE universes, especially when you have spaceships.

Considering they're actively calling it dimensional travel... yeah, no, we already have alternate universes. The entire Nanohaverse is based around them, so I don't see the problem.

And I don't see a reason to leave out Gears of Destiny either. Sure, it introduces time traveling, but I don't see that as a massive problem. It might actually give a more direct meaning meaning to the time part in the time space administration bureau's name.

Tiresias

2011-12-13, 07:34

It might actually give a more direct meaning meaning to the time part in the time space administration bureau's name.

:confused:

Wasn't it supposed to be Space-Time Administration Bureau, and the only reason we never use that was because STAB isn't exactly a benevolent-sounding acronym?

Besides, IIRC the Movie used the term Dimension Administration Bureau :p

Keroko

2011-12-13, 07:51

don't recall what the movie used as the Japanese term, but yeah the series uses space-time.

00-Raiser

2011-12-13, 10:32

Just because it's called the Time-Space Administration Bureau doesn't mean they litterally administer time and space. Indeed, we know for a fact that they don't run the entire universe and there are plenty of worlds that are independent of them.

Keroko

2011-12-13, 11:13

Yes, hence the "might give a more direct meaning."

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-13, 11:58

Space-time refers to the relativity concept that time and space are related, such that traveling through space affects how you travel through time. Gravity doesn't actually exist, it's just that the mass of large bodies like planets distort space and time so that traveling past one in a straight line leads you around it's curve.

Or so it's explained in the Extra Credits episode on "technobable" and what those fancy sounding science words actually mean. (EC is a web-based video series found at Penny Arcade's website, in their PATV section. Check it out. )

So, for people who are using instellar spaceships, they'd be experiencing a lot of distorted time because of the speeds and distances trough which they travel space. If it werent for subspace, which in fact ALSO relates to time space in allowing them to cross lots of space in what seems like very little time.

Indeed, a jump may even seem like less time than it really is, as far as the rest of the universe is concerned.

Kuze

2011-12-13, 14:48

As I prefer to think of it, the TSAB's name refers not so much to a position of ruler ship as it does to the whole "administer the operations necessary to keep reality and time, and all related therein [culture, society, economy, political structure, life, etc] as we know it from collapsing"

Or something.

Rising Dragon

2011-12-13, 15:02

The subs for the Nanoha movie just called them the Dimensional Administration Bureau.

Kuze

2011-12-13, 15:18

Alternately then, just keep the current dimension from going all haywire on its inhabitants, try to administer the peace.

Keroko

2011-12-13, 16:09

The word the series uses, jikuu, should mean space time. But if the movie leaves out that word, we're left with 'administration bureau.'

00-Raiser

2011-12-13, 16:32

I always felt it was kinda egotistical. "Yeah, we're so important that we look out for all of time and space!"

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-13, 17:19

On that note, something they could add to the series, pre or post StrikerS, is a planet with magical science which has not entered into the TSAB's federation, because their leaders are vigorously collecting overtechnology and Lost Logia and continuing to develop mass-based weaponry, artificial mages, combat cyborgs, war robots... The works.

They have a clear edge over the TSAB's military, but since they're only one planet or a small empire, they can't match the manpower and collecting Mage-power that the TSAB's united worlds can bring to bear. So, cold war scenario.

Kuze

2011-12-13, 17:49

I always felt it was kinda egotistical. "Yeah, we're so important that we look out for all of time and space!"

Well, not to touch on the hubris of it or what not, but really, someone has to do it.

Plus considering that the Bureau formed right after the second consecutive civilization breaking war was winding down, with so many LL being left to whoever found them, it's not entirely a bad idea to ask for all the good publicity that they can possibly get. Even in the choice of their name.

Now on the other hand, the only slightly negative opinion that has ever been espoused about ye olden Belkan kings was Ix, and SSX went to great lengths to try and portray that as deeply misinformed. It wouldn't even touch whether she, and really, everyone else in that time had actually and truly screwed the hell up, irregardless of how they were as people.

So, I don't know. Publicity may not matter all that much, depending how much thought Tsuzuki put in it.

Tiresias

2011-12-13, 18:27

Now on the other hand, the only slightly negative opinion that has ever been espoused about ye olden Belkan kings was Ix, and SSX went to great lengths to try and portray that as deeply misinformed. It wouldn't even touch whether she, and really, everyone else in that time had actually and truly screwed the hell up, irregardless of how they were as people.

Unless you pull an alternate character interpretation on Olivia.

Think about it. The Saint Church revered Olivia as the Saint who "put an end to the war" but we never know how. And then there's the fact that she was fighting the "Unification" War, so her attempt to "end the war" can be interpreted as "ending it by reclaiming her birthright under her single rule." And then there's the fact that the war ended after her death, something which can be interpreted as "the death of the last despot ended any claimants to the Belkan Remnants, thus erasing any reason to continue the war (under that casus belli)."

...Hey, if we can have alternate views on historical people, I don't see why we can't do the same on fictional ones :p Blame Tsuzuki for giving so little insight on the whole debacle :rolleyes:

Kuze

2011-12-13, 18:50

We know that Claus continued to fight after Olivie's death, but again, who was he fighting anyways?

Of course, we could just go with the unstated but plausible answer: War ends at the moment when peace permanently wins out. Not when the articles of surrender are signed or the last shot is fired, but when the last shout of a sidewalk battle between children fades, when the next generation starts to wonder whether the whole thing ever really happened. They ended as war always ends -- by trailing off into nothingness and doubt. Its final monument has never been seen by mortal eyes. It's a phantom image at the edge of a rumor; an unmarked grave in the depths of the South American jungle where a weird and decrepit old man, half forgotten by the world, at last entered the lists of oblivion.

Would it reinforce why Claus died so miserably? Sure, but I am skeptical if Tsuzuki has actually thought about that part of a legacy.

Or if he's ever read into the enormous hissy opinions fight between historians over every notable war, conflict, bushfire, and slapping that ever was, and realize that academics can get really worked up about their subject.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-13, 23:59

Tiresias, your post suggests to me that you're unaware that Olivie inherited a several centuries old war when she was made the last surviving member of the Kaiser bloodline, and how before that point she was given over to the Hegemons of Shutra as a political hostage to cement loyalty.

For all we know, she fought against her own Belkan countrymen to stop the Reunification War. Maybe she never even helmed the Cradle.

Rising Dragon

2011-12-14, 00:34

Given that Klaus and Olivie were fighting to see who'd take control of the Cradle, I doubt Olivie didn't take its helm.

Tiresias

2011-12-14, 01:09

For all we know, she fought against her own Belkan countrymen to stop the Reunification War. Maybe she never even helmed the Cradle.

Thing is, we know too little about the Reunification War. If not by stopping the war by reuniting the lost Belkan territories under her rule, what kind of alternate plan did she have to "stop" the war? Killing other pretender of the throne? And then what? What kind of government would take control of those territories?

Not to mention that the end of war was marked by her death. Peace, or at least a cease-fire, was only made possible by her no longer breathing.

Alternately, it is said that she sacrificed herself to end the war. Here's the question then: what kind of death sacrifice made by a head of state would end a war? Ramming her ship to the Death Star? :rolleyes:

itanshi1

2011-12-14, 01:12

Such delicious conspiracies.

But to refer to top of page, the trick is not 'time space', but 'dimensional travel'

Keroko

2011-12-14, 02:31

The bureau itself is called the "jikuu kanri kyoku" or "spacetime administration bureau."

When traveling however, the term used is "jigen" which means "dimension." The weird multi-color universe ships travel between is called Jigen kūkan for example, which means dimensional space, and the spell Vita used is called jigen tensou, dimensional transfer.

It should be noted that the TSAB navy also uses the term dimension. Jigenkōkō Butai.

FRS

2011-12-14, 06:30

I am "late to the party", so the dimensional part of the TSAB name has been cleared and the TSAB is present across several dimension ?

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-14, 07:03

There has been no such agreement.

00-Raiser

2011-12-14, 13:52

Depends on what one means by dimensions. I imagine a lot of as think "parallel universe" when they hear dimension but that's not always the case.

itanshi1

2011-12-14, 15:35

The thing that gets me, dimensional travel should have no such thing as subspace or dimensional space. That's like saying there's something between onion layers. I'm inclined to think the terms are mixed up in the canon.

Keroko

2011-12-14, 16:24

I like to think of dimensions as bubbles in water. Traveling between bubbles means you're traveling through the water, the water in this case being the dimensional sea.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-14, 17:14

Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much.

What matters most is that Midchilda is not an alternate Earth, and that even if an alternate Earth existed, no one has the technology to prove it, let alone travel to it.

Whether or not multiple inhabitated planets exist within the same dimension isn't important when all of the spaceships are capable of dimensional travel anyway.

It would only be significant if Earth already had a space force of its own, but lacked the technology to reach Midchilda. Which would generally only matter if Earth and Midchilda were at war.

00-Raiser

2011-12-14, 18:21

I like to think of dimensions as bubbles in water. Traveling between bubbles means you're traveling through the water, the water in this case being the dimensional sea.

That's generally how I view it too, but that suggests you can't travel between worlds 'the long way' by going through physical space because they don't exist in the same universe.

Keroko

2011-12-14, 19:35

Well, yes, but how is that a problem?

00-Raiser

2011-12-14, 20:22

It would mean that Earth and Mars aren't on the same plane of existence.

Keroko

2011-12-14, 20:26

.... I am completely confused how you arrived at that conclusion.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-14, 20:36

He's thinking in terms of Planets As Worlds/Dimensions instead of Solar Systems as Worlds/Dimensions.

00-Raiser

2011-12-14, 20:38

itanshi1

2011-12-14, 22:54

If its the MtG angle, then each world is a Plane and subspace is the Blind Eternities. The series always shies against modern technology, space travel etc, so it doesn't solve it.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-14, 23:23

All the worlds are shown to be simply different planets, like Earth and Mars, so if you can only get to them via dimensional travel it means each planet is in its own dimension.
Earth's dimension has to include the sun, which in turn includes Mercury and Venus at least. Which is why I would assume a dimension is at least as big as a solar system, rather than just one planet and any moons it may have (and Midchilda has a LOT of moons).

It also means that if you go far enough in one dimension you'll hit an invisible wall that you can't pass through.
That's one possibility. The other is that the Nanohaverse is actually a multi-verse, and Midchilda is just one planet in a universe full of infinite planets, while Earth is another planet in a seperate universe which is also full of infinite planets.

In which case, it's a real waste of a multiverse.

The major (if not only) distinction of a multiverse or parallel universe or alternate timeline reality is that travel happens SIDEWAYS. You step through a door in one world and exit into another world.

Travel doesn't happen sideways in Nanoha. You have to cross actual distance in order to get from planet to planet, even if you get to cheat the laws of time and space with magic and technology to achieve faster-than-light travel.

I see the Time-Space Administration Bureau as the Bureau of Policing Those Worlds Which Have Achieved Time-Space-Cheating Travel, and also Lost Logia Which Cause Time-Space Distortions that Destroy A Lot Of Stuff.

If you don't have one or other, they don't need to Administer you, because you simply cannot cause any damage to anyone not on your own planet. Without faster than light travel, you are strictly local.

00-Raiser

2011-12-14, 23:53

But they've shown to not only categorize under developed planets, but also interferes with them without the consent of the ruling party.

The Bureau's looking more egotistical by the minute. It's not wonder several groups want to break free of them.

Tiresias

2011-12-15, 01:17

Multiverse-spanning? Honestly, I have trouble imagining the TSAB as a galaxy-spanning entity. I mean, how many planets have they even categorized? The highest number AW is Supools, which is 61, while the highest number NAW is Earth, which is 97.

Considering the ridiculous number of planets in this galaxy alone...

But they've shown to not only categorize under developed planets, but also interferes with them without the consent of the ruling party.

The Bureau's looking more egotistical by the minute.

Heh, reminds me of a certain comment at SpaceBattles (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=4851861&postcount=105)
I barely had to change anything to make them (http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=4851861&postcount=105) into something which combines the worst aspects of imperialism (taking that which it desires from backwater planets, namely mages and magical technology while leaving them conflict-ridden and "Unadministered") even while maintaining a hydraulic despotism over advanced magitechnology, and suffering such an endemic infestation of unethical scientific research projects that one might think that the people in charge encourage them such that they're easily deniable, aided, abetted and protected by a tight-knit pseudo-matriarchy of walking WMDs, cyborg supersoldiers and clones who use some kind of magical mind-control built into their "non-lethal" weapons systems which causes a remarkable rate of "conversion" (the so-called "Befriending") of former foes.
It's not wonder several groups want to break free of them.

Wait, when did this happened?

LostSome

2011-12-15, 01:35

So... 61 planets is small ?:twitch:
Good luck having a unanimous vote on anything.:heh:

Tiresias

2011-12-15, 01:51

We have listed at least 700 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets) of them out there. Mind you, that's what our puny Earth sensors and observation methods could manage right now - it doesn't cover the whole galaxy, that's for sure :heh: - and not the ultra-advanced magitech the TSAB is supposed to possess.:rolleyes:

And now that we think about it, what counts as a Non-Administrated World anyway? Does (currently) uninhabitable planets like Mars counts?

LostSome

2011-12-15, 02:14

Doesn`t TSAB already have a lack in manpower ?
Spreading to thin is probably a problem.
For AWs, I can see it as a major reason.

Tiresias

2011-12-15, 02:38

But what about NAWs? Remember that we managed that 700 count without spaceships :p You'd think Midchilda's academicians would be more productive than that.

Point is, I seriously doubt that the TSAB patrols multiple universes considering the absurdly low number of worlds they have noted;)

Keroko

2011-12-15, 04:54

All the worlds are shown to be simply different planets, like Earth and Mars, so if you can only get to them via dimensional travel it means each planet is in its own dimension.

It also means that if you go far enough in one dimension you'll hit an invisible wall that you can't pass through.

Well, of course they'd be different planets. If you travel to a different dimension, you find different galaxies and thus different planets. I don't see a problem there.

And the end of the universe theory still exists to this very day.

And now that we think about it, what counts as a Non-Administrated World anyway? Does (currently) uninhabitable planets like Mars counts?

I'd say they at least need a civilization. Not much to administer if there's nothing to administer.

al103

2011-12-15, 05:44

But what about NAWs? Remember that we managed that 700 count without spaceships :p

Yeah, riiiiight... How much of that 700 HABITABLE? Every one of shown AW and NAW are habitable. And even with habitable ones IIRC unsettled and non-administred are different thing.

UPDATE: Yeah, just checked - orbital prisons are around "Uninhabited world NUMBER". Which is third different class and doesn't mean "uninhabited" too - as probably nobody cares to number that ones.

PS. So yes, uninhabitable don't count and habitable but Uninhabited are in different class then NAW.

00-Raiser

2011-12-15, 11:31

Wait, when did this happened?

Jail and the Huckebein are two examples.

There doesn't appear to be any sort of democratic system in place, so what gives the Bureau it's legitimacy? Because they say so and have enough power so no one can argue?

And they're surprised that crime is high? :rolleyes:

al103

2011-12-15, 11:51

But they've shown to not only categorize under developed planets, but also interferes with them without the consent of the ruling party.

Like every other government and powerful corporation out there if we look on Earth modern (and not so modern) history?

There doesn't appear to be any sort of democratic system in place, so what gives the Bureau it's legitimacy? Because they say so and have enough power so no one can argue?

Bureau is not government. Local planetary governments are governments. And Bureau have only that power that local governments concede to them. Pretty clear when administered planet tell to stay out of they civil war and Burau stay out.

PS. Bureau is more like UN (peacekeepers) with teeth.

00-Raiser

2011-12-15, 12:09

Like every other government and powerful corporation out there if we look on Earth modern (and not so modern) history?

Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's right.

itanshi1

2011-12-15, 12:16

Not sure that was the question addressed.

LostSome

2011-12-16, 02:11

itanshi1

2011-12-16, 02:19

No room in story for the format, but yeah makes me think of black magic m-66 and how this isn't that.

Nagumo

2011-12-18, 16:35

Since Hayate told the Hucks that she would hunt them down anywhere even outside TSAB`s jurisdiction, I say that TSAB is pretty self-righteous.
Or at least, Hayate is.:heh:

Is there any form of independant media on Mid ?
The lack of journalists, paparazzis and how easily TSAB can cover almost anything has always troubled me...

Well, we do know they have something like a television network of some sort.
From SSX 1

Newswoman: This is Midchilda MBC News. We are at the scene of the crime at a large department store Firize by coastline. From the 27th floor, we can see smoke rising/escaping from the windows. We’re still not sure of the extent of the damage but there has been an explosion in the 27th floor event hall. One male victim has been confirmed dead.
The hall had been convening an antique art exhibition and the man had been involved with the art exhibition… Ah, that’s an Armed Forces helicopter flying up there! It looks like that this is no accident.
A similar string of terrorist incidents has happened/occurred on Faurus and Weizen (Vaizen), whether there is a connection or not, hasn’t been confirmed. We are waiting for a TSAB announcement/statement. The recent string of terrorist incidents have…

Alto: Jeez, it’s great that TV stations/crews are so quick with their job but I sure hope that they’re following/cooperating with the information/news control/restrictions?…
Ginga: Well, they’re only doing their jobs the best they can…

It seems that the media of Midchilda is rather similar to Japanese media. I believe there is a high level of collusion between major media and government/TSAB to hush up certain stuff.

Keroko

2011-12-18, 18:22

Unsurprisingly, given the author's experience with media it was to be expected that Mid media resembles Japanese media.

Justin_Brett

2011-12-18, 18:37

Well every major news channel in an American production is Fox News, so that's nothing new.

Wild Goose

2011-12-23, 02:12

Something that i've been thinking about....

Waay back when StrikerS first came out I recall there being a shitstorm of sorts over how the Bureau was employing child soldiers in the form of Erio, Caro, and some of the support staff.

However, consider Nanoha and A's. Chrono is barely 11 and is a serving officer; Nanoha and Fate are accepted as private contractors, Amy is a bridge operator... where was the shitstorm then?

...yes, I am asking this about 4 years too late, perhaps, but this only just occurred to me.

00-Raiser

2011-12-23, 02:29

Chrono was 14, not 11.

Rising Dragon

2011-12-23, 02:40

IIRC, for Caro it was less about her age and more about using her as a weapon due to her then-uncontrollable summons.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-23, 11:20

IIRC, for Caro it was less about her age and more about using her as a weapon due to her then-uncontrollable summons.
Of course, no one among the viewers had any evidence that this adorable, frightened girl was actually all that dangerous.

It was at least twelve episodes before Voltaire was revealed in all of his flying-Godzilla-esque glory. And by then, Caro had actually learned how to control her summons.

Back when she COULDN'T control them, she STILL had the power to summon Voltaire.

Of course, even knowing all of this, it's still not enough concrete evidence that she was actually all that dangerous. For one thing, we don't know if Voltaire CAN be controlled, or if he politely acceeds to his summoner's requests.

For another, we don't know if she could accidentally summon a dragon.

As "revealed" in one fanfic, it wasn't that Caro was dangerous in and of herself that her tribe exiled her. It was because they were adamantly opposed to being drawn back into the outside world, especially for conflict. They were tired of being used as war assets.

Someone with Caro's power would have drawn notice and brought people looking to recruit by hook or crook. Her tribe decided to sacrifice her to those wolves in order to keep their own peace.

The TSAB agents who first got a hold of her might have misunderstood the tribe's gesture. They might have thought it meant that Caro inherently could not be trusted or controlled with her power, and so none of them thought it was feasible to even TRY training her.

And if you suddenly found yourself with a child who would inevitably destroy everything around her, you would be faced with the decision to mercy-kill her or to put her somewhere where her death might count for something.

Or you could take a gamble, like Fate did.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-29, 23:55

I seem to recall a scene set between The Original Season and A's where Yuuno and Chrono are talking about how well Yuuno's mana reserved have recovered since the beginning, and how he's finally back up to full strength.

Only, I can't seem to find such a thing in the manga or Sound Stage transcripts.

What I did find was a similar conversation set AFTER A's, at the sakura-viewing party.

Can anyone find the first, pre-A's conversation, or did I wildly misremember the post-A's conversation?

Akiyoshi

2011-12-30, 12:42

^ Whit this we can assume that Yuuno fights the enterity of Season One handicapped?

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-30, 14:56

^ Whit this we can assume that Yuuno fights the enterity of Season One handicapped?
Yes. At no point in Season One did he really take the time to fully recover his strength.

The question is whether or not he did before A's, or if he spent all of the SECOND season still handicapped.

Rising Dragon

2011-12-30, 15:20

Not entirely, I think. I know that Yuuno does mention in the anime that he's recovered enough strength to continue after the Jewel Seeds on his own, if Nanoha would return Raising Heart.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-30, 15:34

Not entirely, I think. I know that Yuuno does mention in the anime that he's recovered enough strength to continue after the Jewel Seeds on his own, if Nanoha would return Raising Heart.
Nope.

After their first encounter with Fate, and after Arf shows up out of nowhere to threaten them at the out-of-town hot springs, Yuuno has started to seriously fear for Nanoha's safety.

He doesn't ask for Raising Heart back (if such a thought would even occur to him, he'd probably pass it off as the "reward" he promised her), and he doesn't claim that he's recovered at all (since he'd keep on going even if he wasn't recovered).

All he said was that he thought it would be better for Nanoha if he broke ties with her, with the implication of "before this gets more dangerous."

As for Fate, Arf and Chrono, I'll point out that none of them were injured or exhausted as badly as Yuuno was. The incompatibility might not be a problem for someone who's in better health or who has enough mana left in their Linker Core.

Whenever Fate suffered the worst damage and exhaustion in the original series, she recovered in the Garden of Time or the Arthra.

Arf is a familiar who naturally transforms, rather than using a learned spell. That and her inhuman nature might have contributed to a better recovery than Yuuno's after escaping from Precia. Also, Arf might have merely being suffering from physical injuries rather than total Linker Core exhaustion.

And yeah, Yuuno totally spent himself out, since he used the last of his energy to heal his wounds. His Linker Core emptied out and had nothing left to draw on but the energy of an unfamiliar planet.

Then again, Nanoha LOST most of her Core itself, and recovered both the Core and her energy far more quickly than a whole year. But, Earth is her home planet.

When it happened to Fate, by that time, she'd already spent time on Earth, which would allow acclimation.

Also, both of them recieved Midchildan medical treatment that Yuuno did not, in the original season.

Anh_Minh

2011-12-31, 04:36

I call BS on the whole "earth's mana is different and makes it hard to use magic".

Magic is Magic.

Otherwise the Wolkenritter would not have been able to absorb magic from those monsters, yet they did.

So, it's total BS and should be ignored as non-canon.

Besides, Fate recovered in her penthouse apartment.

Also, no mention of it in StrikerS by ANYONE when they went to Earth during the Sound Stages.

Well, you could say that food is food, but some people do get allergies.

Kaijo

2011-12-31, 09:44

I can see both sides of it.

Neither the series nor the movie mention anything about how mana can be different from place to place, or that people would might have issues with it. Every magic-using character is shown using their magic the same as always, no matter where they are. It's ONLY mentioned in the movie manga, and seems to be something of a ret-con to try and explain any problems Yuuno had, and perhaps diminish his role (and thus, enable the series to focus more on Nanoha and Fate).

I can also understand the logic that it might be a bit different. Everyone is different, and we all adapt to things differently. Even the very air we breathe. Human beings live at various elevations in the world, and if you were to move from a low elevation to a high elevation, you would have a bit of trouble breathing. Everyone else there is fine, because they've adapted after living there so long.

This could partially explain why Nanoha was able to beat Fate (Fate wasn't quite used to the different mana on earth yet). But no mention is made of it. So it is simultaneously a logical explanation, and a poor explanation. And I can very much imagine the reason why it is solely imposed on Yuuno.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-31, 10:05

Do Yuuno's rate of recovery and his performance during the first season (or first and second) even require such an explanation?

Hayate22

2011-12-31, 13:33

Again, there is no mention of it in the StrikerS sound stage where the Forwards come to Earth.

If there was ANY sort of mention to it, it should have been made then.

Or are you telling me that Teana, Subaru, Erio and Caro would be used to different "atmospheres" of magic and could easily adjust?

Note that this is fairly early on in the series too.

As for Yuuno himself, I would have accepted "I nearly burned my Linker Core out, got hurt physically and didn't recover properly" as to why he wasn't too good in Season 1.

They did go to Earth in the StrikerS Sound Stage 1. It's during the first few tracks that this is mentioned. They make a mention about doing some things on Unadministrated Planet 97, Earth. Subaru and Teana also meet Nanoha's Mother who they mentioned is very young looking. It's a mission they were doing cause of some strange activity on earth. The Forwards also meet Arisa and Suzuka.

Track 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uB6e71sS4Y&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL52AC807AC7394882
Track 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjwAxftpx98&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL52AC807AC7394882

If you doubt me. Go find the Sound Stage translations done by Nagumo-san. She translated most or all of the soundstages already.
Here is the thread: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=85192

Akiyoshi

2011-12-31, 14:06

Maybe, as an alternate universe, that thing about Mana changes is only true in the MOVIE manga canon?

Hayate22

2011-12-31, 14:48

3 TV series anime + Sound stages + the majority of the various Nanoha mangas = 1 version of the Nanoha-verse

Movie Manga + Movies = retelling of the Nanoha-verse, or another variation.

Games = Another retelling of the Nanoha A's arc, possibly of the StrikerS, Vivid, and Force series.

Most fans do not apply one variation's rules and logic on another no matter how similiar they are. Most of the time fans will keep them separate to enjoy the series more and not overanalyze things.

Akiyoshi

2011-12-31, 15:00

Movie Manga + Movies = retelling of the Nanoha-verse, or another variation.

It's worth mentioning that the Movies and the Movie mangas are also two separate continuities despite the strong similarities.

Hayate22

2011-12-31, 15:02

Which I'm corrected as I just remembered movie manga version of Nanoha going through a bit more personal angst every so often.

Anh_Minh

2011-12-31, 18:17

Then how come no one, and I mean NO ONE, ever mentions it for any other planet at all?

Because it's something that's made up in order to "justify" why things happened in the movie and it's never brought up in canon, that's why.

And I've never heard of food allergies other than from the internet. If I ever met someone with it, he or she didn't mention it.

Yes, it's made up. Everything is made up - it's a fictional story of alien humans and magic. Where ten-years-old little girls wind up being more relevant than veteran soldiers. And that's where you want to stop suspending your disbelief? If it bothers you so much, tell yourself he got the flu or something.

Sunder the Gold

2011-12-31, 18:20

Hayate22

2011-12-31, 19:11

I'm not a moderator, but I feel this discussion has gone beyond the bounds of Q&A and should go to the Theories and Speculation, Magic and Technology, Original Season or First Movie thread, if it's going to continue.

Like Sunder the Gold, I feel this discussion just turned into as such.

Nanya01: You should probably move this to another thread where it is appropriate because now it's turned from a simple question to something else.

Also alternate variations of one series can also have alternate sub-issues involved. In one variation, the whole "mana field" on one planet may be an issue to someone who is used the the "mana field" on another. But in a different variation, BOTH "mana fields" can be very similiar and not be an issue overall.

Again, you cannot apply one variation on another. Some things are sometimes changed to suit the situation it is in. The Movie, by itself doesn't mention this, the Movie Manga, which is a different one, does. Again, different variations of the same material.

This is the same when light novels are adapted into manga or anime. There will be deviations or alterations to suit the material it's being adapted to. Remember this fact.

Kaijo

2012-01-13, 19:31

Trying to steer this discussion away from the movie 2nd thread and into here:

Which could have been avoided with 1/4th the number of characters. Sure, some people may have liked the new characters, but there was such a huge excess of them in StrikerS, and a lot of them will never get development because they are simply not liked enough. Quality over quantity I say.

I think the Nanoha movie proved that the only reason StrikerS is the most popular of the three seasons, is because it was the franchises most recent installment. The Nanoha movie sales were better than any season and it was a remake of the season which did the worst. A's had a huge hurdle to overcome, because the first season was not taken too highly, meanwhile, strikers was a direct sequel to a great season.

One thing I think is great about this types of discussions, is that it highlights the fact that people like or dislike Nanoha based on their tastes. The stories themselves are fairly good, no major holes, just minor issues here and there. So some people can dislike StrikerS, while others like it.

Myself, I liked StrikerS. Yeah, it had a lot of characters, and some could have used more development, but I think it succeeded fairly well at what it set out to do: expand the in-story universe. And show how our girls have grown up and developed in this world. The story was entertaining, too, and the last few episodes are the best I've ever scene. I can't count the number of times I've rewatched Nanoha blasting Quattro, and Zest's death with Agito crying "Danna!"

Force and Vivid I like for different reasons; Force has more of an interesting and involving story that I find myself eager to see what happens next. And Vivid has greatly expanded magical styles and a bit of lore. Both also have bad points (Vivid having more of them), but given what's out there, Nanoha in general is fairly good, even when it's at it's worst.

The movies, on the other hand, I feel are actually not quite as a good. They are a decent watch, but it feels like, trying to up the quality, meant the quantity suffered. You need a good blend of both, but a lot of it is subjective. I just felt the first film took the first season's most glaring flaw (lack of explanation of Nanoha's family and past) and just made that flaw bigger.

So it's not a simple matter of quality or quantity. It's subjective to a large degree, but the Nanoha series as a whole, added a whole lot of interesting concepts they introduced to the magical girl genre, and to anime in general, that really make them good stories... even if the stories aren't your particular cup of tea.

Key Board

2012-01-13, 22:57

To me StrikerS had one problem. It seems to lack one clear focus.
It had a bit too many conflicting storytelling elements.

Compare this to the first series and A's which focus was a lot clearer in comparison.

Thus, my suggestion on how to improve StrikerS:

It should have been Nanoha StarS instead of Nanoha StrikerS

Just focus on JS, cyborgs, Teana and Subaru, and the whole drama about Quint.
Drop Erio, Caro, Lutecia, and Vivio
Stay consistent with the anti-magic/machine over magic theme

If they really wanted those other characters, save that for another season.

Of course doing all of the above would have made Subaru the real heroine of StrikerS, and.. I suppose... they didn't want to do that... too bad...

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-14, 00:05

We're talking about things that could be trimmed out to improve StrikerS in this thread, at the moment:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=212437&page=6

I think you could get away with keeping all of the Numbers, Forwards, Lutecia, Zest and Vivio if you simply remove the Gadget Drones. Instead of the robots, the Numbers would appear from the very beginning to collect the Relics.

Including the one incident that led to Nanoha getting badly injured. Which would serve to create a dramatic connection and tension between Vita and at least one of the numbers; perhaps Tre.

Signum and Zafira could also get Designated Worthy Opponents to fight, among the Numbers. And Nove could be made more competent and powerful to serve as a proper foil to Subaru and Ginga.

Using only the Numbers to bring down Nanoha and successfully collect Relics establishes them as a credible threat and presents more opportunities to develop their characters.

The Gadget Drones would instead be used only when Jail needs a much larger force to get a job done, such as the attack on the central complex and Riot Force Six, and then later when he gets the Cradle up and running.

The Relics would finally get a proper use and point in the story. First of all, they serve as practice and training for his daughters, and proof of their effectiveness.

Second, the Relics are a distraction from his main objective. Everyone will get so focused on what he wants to do with a bunch of powerful batteries (which are less powerful than Jewel Seeds, but far more controllable) that they don't expect that he's REALLY waiting for a clone or planning something as big as the Saint's Cradle.

Third, after he has the clone and the Cradle, any Relics that he managed to grab will be used to power up Super Gadget Drones, to provide his Numbers with more adequate back up than the disposable rank and file robots.

Using only the Numbers at first allows the series to focus on the character interactions which are half of the point of Lyrical Nanoha.

Using the robots later serves the same purpose as Presea's robots and the Defense Program of earlier seasons... giving the heroes something guilt-free to destroy in spectacular fashions.

GaelicDragon

2012-01-14, 00:10

Had a thought while chewing the fat with Old Iron...

Was watching an episode of Agga Ruter at the same time...

then it showed the Agga Ruter's main weapon in use...and all of the sudden, the fear of a "mass weapon" all of the sudden made sense.

What if it wasn't the "mass" that was the feared part of the equation...

What if it was the use of anti-matter that Belka was starting to use in small doses (still in experimental stage). Something like a first generation generator and containment field that went horribly wrong. Or was sabotaged.

itanshi1

2012-01-14, 03:49

Its been proven through strikers with gas exemptions that magic can manipulate particles, it would stand to reason anything to do with physics can be controlled with magic

Keroko

2012-01-14, 07:55

I think you could get away with keeping all of the Numbers, Forwards, Lutecia, Zest and Vivio if you simply remove the Gadget Drones. Instead of the robots, the Numbers would appear from the very beginning to collect the Relics.

This. The Drones were an excuse to have some faceless battles to make things go boom, but they lacked character and took space that could be given to developing the Numbers.

Though it is possible to keep them, as long as the Numbers appear from the very start to lead them.

itanshi1

2012-01-14, 13:23

Akiyoshi

2012-01-14, 13:59

Drones are predecessors to Raptors tho, well, so are the numbers

Basically, they have the strenght and appearance of a combat cyborg but are mindless mooks like the Gadget Drones.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-14, 15:05

New Topic!

Arf.

Know what Arf would have been doing before Fate put her on a bus? Helping Fate during her earlier Enforcer career.

Detective Dog Arf. With scrying spells learned from our resident archaeologist.

In fact, Arf could have easily continued in that role up to the point of StrikerS. It's not like Fate needs her full and undivided magical power for investigations. Even when making arrests (often with back up from other Enforcers or local law enforcement), the fighting wouldn't be so hard or last so long as to exhaust Fate's divided reserves, and having a Familiar as her partner would only be an advantage.

Arf could even keep fulfilling the role during StrikerS and afterwards, without ever needing to become a full time babysitter and part-time librarian.

And we'd be treated to a wiser, cannier Arf acting like an oneesan/sempai to Teana, which develops Arf's character in an interesting way.

This. The Drones were an excuse to have some faceless battles to make things go boom, but they lacked character and took space that could be given to developing the Numbers.
LOTS of pointless "machine on machine tentacle rape!" shots. Wasted time.

Though it is possible to keep them, as long as the Numbers appear from the very start to lead them.
Either way, the Numbers needed to be involved at least as soon as the first episode, and preferably even for the attack that injured Nanoha all those years ago.

Mirron

2012-01-14, 16:36

I'd make the attack on Nanoha done by Due, since I think that'd be a good surprise. Maybe have her appear as someone else, and we know there is a shapeshifter out there, but not what she's doing. Her appearance in StrikerS felt a touch abrupt. But yeah, I like the idea of cutting the drones importance and focusing on the Numbers. Maybe touch down on the number of them, since... well, it's somewhere along the lines of 16 or so on the enemy, which is a bit too much to really give them the attention they deserve.

Sheba

2012-01-14, 16:52

Rising Dragon

2012-01-18, 18:58

Did Ginga keep her drill hand after she was rescued?

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-18, 20:06

Did Ginga keep her drill hand after she was rescued?
Sound Stages tell us that Jail's reconstruction of her arm was re-reconstructed.

I'd presume the drill is gone.

ZeroIchiNi

2012-01-19, 00:30

That wasn't her IS?

Does she even have one?

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-19, 01:05

That wasn't her IS?

Does she even have one?
There is no clear answer, so talking about it is better left to other threads for speculation.

Koveras Alvane

2012-01-19, 01:54

That wasn't her IS?

I always thought her IS is Wing Road, because Nove casts its analogue as her IS, and Shari mentions in StrikerS manga that WR is Subaru's "Inherent Magic".

Rising Dragon

2012-01-19, 02:00

Yet Subaru's actual IS is Vibration Shatter. Given Nove's similar Break Liner IS abilities, like the explosive kicks and energy attacks + the Air Liner skill, and the inherent link between the three of them being clones of the same woman, Ginga very likely has an IS that matches or is extremely similar to Vibration Shatter.

So I figure the drill hand wasn't an Inherent Skill. Inherent Equipment Jail made for her, perhaps, seeing how they RIPPED HER ARM OFF when they ganged up on her, but certainly not the actual Inherent Skill.

Thus I wanted to know whether she retained said drill hand function upon her rescue at the end of the JS Incident.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-19, 02:13

Wing Road is an Inherent Magic, according to Shari (according to the Wiki), which is perhaps a purely biological version of an Inherent Skill, but not the same thing.

Which means that it didn't need to be Nove's IS, since as Quint or Nove's clone, her biological side alone would have provided the spell. And Subaru in Combat Mode is capable of using the spell in total AMF conditions.

Once again, Nove is revealed to be a depressingly cheap knockoff. The writers didn't give her enough development love.

"Inherent Magic" might also cover Vivio's Sankt Kaiser Mode, the Adult Mode that she and Einheart were able to master without being taught, and the Kaiser Arts. Instinctual, genetically-encoded knowledge.

Subaru's only IS is Oscillating Breaker / Vibration Shatter. If she and her sister are two units of the same model, then Ginga has the same thing, but Jail didn't order her to use it against her own sister, just as Subaru didn't use it against Ginga.

Arcc

2012-01-19, 11:32

Actually, Nove's I.S. isn't actually Airliner, her version of Wing Road.

It's Break Liner.

And Break Liner, for Nove, allows her to use any equipment she has to its maximum potential ability.

Yeah, that's right, any equipment Nove has, she can use to its fullest capacity.

Too bad that Jail didn't give her a really dangerous weapon.

Really? Well now, that's just begging her to get a scene in which she has to borrow both revolver knuckles.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-19, 12:26

Why did this turn into a discussion in the Q and A thread? I know I'm not a moderator, but didn't my request to take this to another thread make good sense?

Also, "fullest capacity" doesn't mean anything unless explained or demonstrated. There's no baseline for comparison between "using Break Liner" and "not using Break Liner".

Plus, in a straight contest of power and ability, Subaru absolutely wrecked her without using Oscillating Breaker. Hell, Subaru wrecked her in a clash of kicks, and Nove is supposed to be the superior kicker, what with having her Revolver Gears and JETS on her legs.

For all we know, Break Liner is just the set of components she needs to feed energy to her Equipment, so that the pieces of junk work at all.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-19, 12:37

Sunder, you're the one who turned it into a discussion just now.

just because you don't like a character doesn't mean you should flat out dismiss them like that.
I am participating, but I didn't start anything. Mine was the first reply to the question, and I specifically asked for someone to take it to a different thread.

Also, I don't dislike Nove. I'm upset that she got shafted, and I want better for her. That doesn't mean turning a blind eye to the facts, especially since the facts need to be acknowledge and changed appropriately to give her a better presence in reconstructive fanfiction.

Keroko

2012-01-19, 13:31

I am participating, but I didn't start anything. Mine was the first reply to the question, and I specifically asked for someone to take it to a different thread.

Then do so and don't continue the discussion in the Q&A thread. It looks rather hypocritical to admonish people for debating in a Q&A thread in one line, then continue the debate in the next.

Anyway, to answer what we know: Wing Road is both cast with a magic circle and affected by AMF, so it's not an IS.

What exactly Inherent Magic is, we do not know.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-19, 13:36

Anyway, to answer what we know: Wing Road is both cast with a magic circle and affected by AMF, so it's not an IS.

What exactly Inherent Magic is, we do not know.

Except we've seen Subaru's Wing Road work in full AMF enviroments xDU.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-19, 13:46

Then do so and don't continue the discussion in the Q&A thread. It looks rather hypocritical to admonish people for debating in a Q&A thread in one line, then continue the debate in the next.
It is a bit hypocritical, but I'm expecting a moderator to pick the whole thing up and drop it into an appropriate thread pretty soon. At this point, one or two posts of my own in that sequence won't matter.

And Akiyoshi already pointed out what I had already earlier pointed out: Subaru can in fact make Wing Road work unaffected by AMF when in Combat Mode. It's what she did to storm the Cradle.

Whether or not this should have even been possible is a different story.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-19, 14:02

Subaru never used Wing Road INSIDE the cradle.

It connected inside the craddle without any problems to make the bridge for enter and exit. When first faced with an AMF barrier(before Subaru mastered/discovered Cyborg mode) and on of the ends was dispelled the whole thing started to wobble which never ocurred while connecting the full AMF protected craddle.

Keroko

2012-01-19, 14:07

Koveras Alvane

2012-01-19, 14:11

seeing how they RIPPED HER ARM OFF when they ganged up on her

Wait, they did? :upset:

Akiyoshi

2012-01-19, 14:23

The later wing road was still cast with a magic circle though, which means it's still a magic spell. And it's not just her way of using it either since her confirmed IS, vibration shatter, activates with an IS circle. We also know from when Nanoha and Vita entered the Cradle that the AMF effects only start inside the cradle, not on it's edge.

And the effects didn't where on full scale at the moment, they only entered full scalle once Vita destroyed the main engine.

This leads me to another good question... When Subaru goes to rescue Nanoha and Hayate from the Craddle and blow a hole in the Kaiser's room she entered a point where she's about two or three floors above Nanoha, Hayate, Rein, Vivio and an uncouncsious Quattro ...and neither of them can fly at the time xDU. If Subaru's wing road is suppossedly inoperable inside the craddle at the moment how on earth she got to take them out of that room in such a short time?

The world may never know xDU

Rising Dragon

2012-01-19, 21:31

And the effects didn't where on full scale at the moment, they only entered full scalle once Vita destroyed the main engine.

This leads me to another good question... When Subaru goes to rescue Nanoha and Hayate from the Craddle and blow a hole in the Kaiser's room she entered a point where she's about two or three floors above Nanoha, Hayate, Rein, Vivio and an uncouncsious Quattro ...and neither of them can fly at the time xDU. If Subaru's wing road is suppossedly inoperable inside the craddle at the moment how on earth she got to take them out of that room in such a short time?

The world may never know xDU

She's a cyborg, so she can probably jump pretty damn high if she needs to. And she could probably do the Kazuma thing and use her fists to launch her up into the air. As for getting other people up there, she could easily have thrown them--we know in the manga she can throw a person pretty damn high (much to Teana's frustration).

Akiyoshi

2012-01-20, 01:15

She's a cyborg, so she can probably jump pretty damn high if she needs to. And she could probably do the Kazuma thing and use her fists to launch her up into the air. As for getting other people up there, she could easily have thrown them--we know in the manga she can throw a person pretty damn high (much to Teana's frustration).

Fair enough, i still will reserve my own beliegfs about Wing Road, tough.

The mental image of Subaru throwing Nanoha, Hayate, an uncouncious cyborg and a toddler girl into the air make me laugh to tears xD!

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-20, 01:22

Does anyone wonder about what Devices Klaus and Olivie would have been using?

It's a particular concern if Einhart wants to copy and improve upon Klaus' remembered skills, since she'd want to use a Device much like his own, in addition to a gender-bent copy of his barrier jacket.

Plus, it's not entirely unreasonable for those two (or more) Devices to have survived to the present day. Especially in Einhart's case, since she's descended from Klaus normally.

I'm not saying that I have anything against plushie Devices, or Hybrid-type Devices (Intelligents that Unison).

But for those who do, this is an opportunity to change things.

Olivie, for example, looks to be wearing combat gauntlets, which might be a Device. And I've never been quite sure why Einhart rejected something like Revolver Knuckle for being "too heavy", considering that gaunlets shouldn't be particularly heavier than staves or swords.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-20, 01:24

I don't think either of them were using a Device.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-20, 01:30

I don't think either of them were using a Device.

Yup, they seems to be focused on magical martial arts, their device(if any) should be something that helps strenghen their bodies. I wonder if the original Olivie have powered herself with a Relic. Just remeber Saint Kaiser Vivio, she was a representation of Olivie's power and she was a pure striker.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-20, 01:36

I don't think either of them were using a Device.
The thing is, that makes absolutely no sense.

Why wouldn't they have Devices?

Yup, they seems to be focused on magical martial arts, their device(if any) should be something that helps strenghen their bodies.
You say this as though Quint, Subaru, Ginga and Nove weren't Strike Artists as well.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-20, 01:42

You say this as though Quint, Subaru, Ginga and Nove weren't Strike Artists as well.

Vivio and einhart seems to be "purer" in their style than them, tough. Actually focusing on adapting their bodies and using magic in combination with a discipline in martial arts which is something new to the franchise. Nove and Subaru and cyborgs who are more reliant on equipement and spells.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-20, 02:01

Vivio and einhart seems to be "purer" in their style than them, tough. Actually focusing on adapting their bodies and using magic in combination with a discipline in martial arts which is something new to the franchise. Nove and Subaru and cyborgs who are more reliant on equipement and spells.
And yet, Nove is seeking to further her mastery of strike arts, and she's the one teaching Vivio strike arts. Wasn't she also the one who helped Einhart discover Unchainable Knuckle?

I'm not buying your argument.

Plus, unlike Vivio, Olivie was involved in an actual war, against mass weaponry, Lost Logia, and mages using Devices. Not having a Device of her own would have been foolhardy. Klaus, too.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-20, 02:04

If you want to get really technical, Olivie's Device was the Saint's Cradle. Particularly since only she (and maybe Klaus, as he intended to take it) could use it.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-20, 02:12

And yet, Nove is seeking to further her mastery of strike arts, and she's the one teaching Vivio strike arts. Wasn't she also the one who helped Einhart discover Unchainable Knuckle?

Nove is only Vivio's current coach, Subaru and Zafira also had something to do with her formation, Einhart is very adamant on remaining as a pure striker even rejected the possibility of acquiring a formally weapon-like device. Just like the Relic and the Craddle served the function of strenghen Olivie's body, Asteion and Sacred Heart help Einhart and Vivio to do the same, only in a lesser scale.

Considering how ungodly powerfull Saint Kaiser Vivio was i wouldn't take Olivie's pure striker strenght lightly. She was remembered as the strongest for a reason xD!

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-20, 03:47

If you want to get really technical, Olivie's Device was the Saint's Cradle. Particularly since only she (and maybe Klaus, as he intended to take it) could use it.
She was the last heir, exiled as a political hostage. Someone else in her family controlled the Cradle.

It's not even certain that she ever gained control of the Cradle herself, after her family died.

Keroko

2012-01-20, 05:04

The thing is, that makes absolutely no sense.

Why wouldn't they have Devices?

Cause they smash stuff with their hands, most devices limit that (weight, mobility etc, Hayate specifically noted how even the Nakajima knuckles could get in the way.) and unison devices were notoriously hard to make.

Also, they're genetically enhanced. Their originals had haxx powers like the Saint King Armor and so wouldn't need devices.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-20, 06:04

Cause they smash stuff with their hands, most devices limit that (weight, mobility etc, Hayate specifically noted how even the Nakajima knuckles could get in the way.)
Yet Devices can also come in lightweight forms, like the Kerykeion gloves, or a Kamen Rider belt-buckle.

Such forms wouldn't be of much physical use, but as Devices, they could still contribute to magical performance. Which is the primary point of any Device to begin with.

Also, they're genetically enhanced. Their originals had haxx powers like the Saint King Armor and so wouldn't need devices.
Olivie might have had the Armor, though Vivio's current lack of it makes that uncertain.

But whatever powers Klaus had, Einhart should have. Other than Adult Mode and lots of talent, that appears to be exactly nothing. She inherited his memories, but of course those weren't a special power bred into HIM; they were just his own memories.

Rather than being the child of an enhanced bloodline, he seems more like the START of an enhanced bloodline. One that will probably continue to make his descendents miserable even after Einhart has lots of emotionally-fulfilling sex with the clone of his childhood sweetheart.

Keroko

2012-01-20, 07:01

Yet Devices can also come in lightweight forms, like the Kerykeion gloves, or a Kamen Rider belt-buckle.

Such forms wouldn't be of much physical use, but as Devices, they could still contribute to magical performance. Which is the primary point of any Device to begin with.

And said devices aren't suited for melee combat, much less martial arts.

Devices aren't one size fits all. Different designs have different functions, and said functions and designs are intertwined. This is not even beginning to add up that different martial art styles have different limitations. Vivid specifically pointed out that Ein's style is not suited for a regular device.

Olivie might have had the Armor, though Vivio's current lack of it makes that uncertain.

Considering canon specifically noted it was the Sankt Kaiser's armor Vivio inherited because she's a clone, and that she lost it during the cradle debacle (cuz lolplot) it's hardly uncertain Olivie had it.

But whatever powers Klaus had, Einhart should have. Other than Adult Mode and lots of talent, that appears to be exactly nothing. She inherited his memories, but of course those weren't a special power bred into HIM; they were just his own memories.

Rather than being the child of an enhanced bloodline, he seems more like the START of an enhanced bloodline. One that will probably continue to make his descendents miserable even after Einhart has lots of emotionally-fulfilling sex with the clone of his childhood sweetheart.

I don't expect a child who only has a tiny fraction of Klaus's blood to have all his genetically enhanced powers. Einhart isn't pure-blood, there's who-knows-how-many generations between her and Klaus. It's a miracle she even has as much as she has.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-20, 15:33

And said devices aren't suited for melee combat, much less martial arts.
There's still the fact that Devices can have soft, pliable, light-weight frames (Caro's gloves).

And that Olivie is clearly wearing bulky, protective gauntlets that reach all the way over her elbows.

Vivid specifically pointed out that Ein's style is not suited for a regular device.
And yet they found a Device for her to use, anyway. With technology LESS advanced than what was needed for a true Unison Device.

Do we have conclusive proof that the two kings were NOT using something akin to the Hybrid Devices?

I don't expect a child who only has a tiny fraction of Klaus's blood to have all his genetically enhanced powers. Einhart isn't pure-blood, there's who-knows-how-many generations between her and Klaus. It's a miracle she even has as much as she has.
Hmm. I didn't expect that the writers might actually be holding to that bit of genetic reality.

And we're already talking about a magically enhanced bloodline. It might have been designed to adapt to massive genetic drift.

Keroko

2012-01-20, 15:46

And yet they found a Device for her to use, anyway. With technology LESS advanced than what was needed for a true Unison Device.

Do we have conclusive proof that the two kings were NOT using something akin to the Hybrid Devices?

Other than no clear visual device being present? None, no. But by that logic we can go and claim Yuuno was secretly using a device as well.

The point is, these guys were beasts that not only genetically enhanced themselves, but also stuffed Relics into their bodies to further boost their powers. Given their already extraordinary power levels, it makes perfect sense for them not to have devices.

Hmm. I didn't expect that the writers might actually be holding to that bit of genetic reality.

And we're already talking about a magically enhanced bloodline. It might have been designed to adapt to massive genetic drift.

Yes, but that's a maybe, not a fact.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 16:20

Taken from the image thread about the developement of the school lives and firendship of the circle of friends comprissed of Nanoha, Fate, Arisa and Suzuka xD

Obvious reasons: they wanted to progress to the next season and focused on that more than building on Nanoha and co.'s school life.
...and another reason, but that's one that doesn't fit here.

I'm not talking about a full season focused on them but a couple of ovas or omakes based on that would be funny, entertaining and even a bit helpful into develping better the transition from A's to StrikerS.

Lycodrake

2012-01-27, 16:22

I'm not talking about a full season focused on them but a couple of ovas or omakes based on that would be funny, entertaining and even a bit helpful into develping better the transition from A's to StrikerS.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd like that too, but it would include Arf and Yuuno, along with Nanoha's parents, so...I doubt they'd do anything like that, since they've demoted those characters to extras or less-than extras.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-27, 16:25

I want the Scrya to return from whatever black hole they fell into, rejoice that Yuuno has actually found friends his own age, and then force him to attend school on Earth to keep a good thing going.

Meanwhile, Zafira joins a local dojo as a karate instructor, and Arf becomes one of his students.

(Hell, if Signum could become a kendo teacher...)

Lycodrake

2012-01-27, 16:25

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 16:29

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd like that too, but it would include Arf and Yuuno, along with Nanoha's parents, so...I doubt they'd do anything like that, since they've demoted those characters to extras or less-than extras.

I don't see anything worng in including them. Arf is a given since she's still with Fate by that point. The Wolkenritter are also living quasi-normal lives with Hayate too but i thing their focus should be reduced to occasional appearances as they got their fair share of limelight during A's. Nanoha's return as nice support character and even we could have a sub-plot of Noel and Farin as a couple of Badass Maids doing jobs for the Tsukimura family xD. Yuuno of course will appear whenever he have free time from the Infinite Library xD. If the omake is placed on Middle-high school Hayate will join the fun xD.

Awww... i find the idea really apealling.

P.S.- Who i'm trying to fool? I just want to watch Arisa as a fun and snarky Middle-highschooler xD

Lycodrake

2012-01-27, 16:31

*snip*
So...a spinoff focusing on Arisa and Suzuka, then?

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 16:33

So...a spinoff focusing on Arisa and Suzuka, then?

Nah, Arisa is able to steal the camera without the need of being the main character. Also part of the fun is seeing how Nanoha and Fate are dragged into bits of a normal schoolgirl live with her friends.

A Fate + Arisa friendship episode could be amusing xD.

(Hell, if Signum could become a kendo teacher...)

According to the A's manga, she was indeed a Kendo teacher(well, more like a Kendo instructor but it's almost the same xD).

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-27, 17:24

According to the A's manga, she was indeed a Kendo teacher(well, more like a Kendo instructor but it's almost the same xD).
That's the point.

If a blooded warrior who only knows how to "get close and cut things to pieces" can become an instructor for a non-lethal sport, Zafira can leverage his Fist of the Guardian Style / Strike Arts into a karate instructor job.

And Arf will be one of his first students, because she wants to become better able to support Fate. The better her nonmagical hand-to-hand skills are, the less she needs to rely on Fate's mana for combat spells.

In turn, she can teach him her nonlethal capture and attack spells, which will serve him well in this era of relative peace.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 17:44

^ That's actually a good idea, especially considering that both have strong bases in that areas:

Arf is no slouch at unarmed hand-to-hand combat, as demonstrated during Season 1 against Chrono and again in A's while facing Zafira(it's true she was on the receiving end of most of Zafira's punches and kicks but still show guts and skill in fighting him xD). While Zafari also have experience acting as a shield for his comrades and have knowledge of some basic restraining spells, he also learned how to adapt his Steel Yoke speel to restrict the target's moves(as we've seen when he captured Otto).

By the way i don't know if Zafira started his carrer as a Martial Arts instructor in Uminari or he does only after moving to Mid-childa?

Keroko

2012-01-27, 18:43

Zafira's job on earth was being a bodyguard for Hayate. Guardian beast 'n all that.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 18:53

Zafira's job on earth was being a bodyguard for Hayate. Guardian beast 'n all that.

IIRC he still has that job on Mid-Childa(how good or dedicated he's in accomplishing that is another matter entirely xDU).

Keroko

2012-01-27, 18:57

Now it's part-time though, he's spending a lot of time teaching kids. 'sides, just like Fate, Hayate became a lot stronger. She's no longer a cripple kid who needs to be watched over constantly.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 19:00

Now it's part-time though, he's spending a lot of time teaching kids. 'sides, just like Fate, Hayate became a lot stronger. She's no longer a cripple kid who needs to be watched over constantly.

yet she's still a Glass Cannon with slouch close combat abilities. Having a martial arts expert like him close sure could come in handy while assaulted by a katana wielding mercenary xDU.

NorthernFallout

2012-01-27, 19:01

You'd think her constantly being surrounded, oh I don't know, with some of the best mages the Bureu has to offer would be enough. But no. She has to be stricken down by the plothammer.

Keroko

2012-01-27, 19:11

Not to mention that being a glass cannon doesn't make you weak, there's a very wide variety of tactics to use to survive and win. It's just that plot demanded she went down.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-27, 19:21

What could she use, considering she's entirely restricted to big flashy spells that take a while to charge and can't really be aimed precisely?

I'm more interested in why Caro wasn't there. Voltaire could have been a good distraction at the very least.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-27, 19:27

he also learned how to adapt his Steel Yoke speel to restrict the target's moves(as we've seen when he captured Otto).
I'm fairly sure Steel Yoke has always been capable of nonlethally capturing someone.

But I'm also fairly sure that it's very inefficient at doing so, especially against targets in the air.

I'm more interested in why Caro wasn't there. Voltaire could have been a good distraction at the very least.
According to some source I don't remember, Voltaire doesn't come when called except when the need is truly urgent.

Recall that both times he was summoned, it was to fight an army or another kaiju.

By comparison, the Huckebein are a smaller threat, and Caro would be the one picking a fight with them when they would otherwise leave her and hers alone.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-27, 19:34

Justin_Brett

2012-01-27, 19:34

I thought it was because Caro was upset that first time. An army of Gadget Drones is still only Gadget Drones.

Or maybe its just because Voltaire is a magical creature that uses magic that's useless against nigh-invincible anti-magic mercenaries who can obliterate entire buildings without much effort, also backed by gigantic anti-magic starship, and Caro didn't want him getting killed uselessly.

Yeah, he couldn't magic them, but he's still a really big dragon, and Hayate's plan amounted to 'threaten to smash the ship' too. It wouldn't work out so well in the long term, but for what her plan was, it woulda helped. I doubt they would have been able to kill him all that easily either - scales, size, and all that.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-27, 19:42

Or maybe its just because Voltaire is a magical creature that uses magic that's useless against nigh-invincible anti-magic mercenaries who can obliterate entire buildings without much effort, also backed by gigantic anti-magic starship, and Caro didn't want him getting killed uselessly.

Maybe his magical fire beams are useless(still debatably as the implact and explosive kinetic force are enough to affect the area surrounding the attack) but he have a very physical mass that can be put into good use. Voltaire isn't a familiar, he's a summon, in other words, a very real, breathing. living colossal humanoid dragon. Seeing at how the Hucks pissed their pants for an inert mountain of ice, i guess voltaire could at the very least being a very troublesome distraction for them.

He was absent more likely for plot convenience. The battle could be much more complicated with his prescence.

What could she use, considering she's entirely restricted to big flashy spells that take a while to charge and can't really be aimed precisely?

It's specially jarring since Zafira's only duty in Section Six is bodyguarding Hayate and when the only time where he can fulfill his role finally comes he's nowhere to be seen xDU. Those are the times where one can expect him to live up to his assignation and fight the agressor, or at the very least taking the bullet for Hayate xDU.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-27, 20:12

The glacier was a threat because if its thrown its going to cause damage no matter what, and because Hayate can easily rebuild it if something breaks it.

No one can rebuild Voltaire if someone breaks him. Wasn't worth the risk.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-27, 20:22

I thought it was because Caro was upset that first time. An army of Gadget Drones is still only Gadget Drones.
And an army of gadget drones is a real problem when there's no one else left to fight them.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-27, 20:27

They also couldn't rebuild Hayate if something happened to her, which it did. And they had no reason to believe the Huckebein wouldn't just kill them.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-27, 20:37

And we're back to arguing hypothetical circumstance because people don't like the canon...

Justin_Brett

2012-01-27, 20:55

Back to making me a strawman who hates everything in this story irrationally just 'cause, I see.

Why were Vita and Erio posted near her if it was a hypothetical situation?

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-29, 21:42

Zafira's job on earth was being a bodyguard for Hayate. Guardian beast 'n all that.
Well, what if Yuuno was sent to live with Hayate, as part of the Scrya Clan insisting he go to school with other kids his age?

Hayate started attending Nanoha and Fate's school after A's. Yuuno could walk with / wheel her to school each day.

It would earn less odd looks than her dog walking with her, and then walking about on his own. Or get less questions about who that tall, dark-skinned gaijin is.

Between his defensive and teleportation powers, he'd be able to do at least as well in protecting Hayate as Zafira.

This is also the time that Hayate began working on creating Reinforce Zwei, and mentioning asking Yuuno for help. If he's staying in her house, he's more available to help her to do so.

A service which would help him feel like his pulling his own weight in return for his stay.

Oh, and he could also help her with her magical training, if Reinforce's "lessons" left her less clear on the underlying principles for how magic works.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 03:14

^ Why replacing Zafira is a need? If Yuuno comes and Zafira remains a bodyguard then the Young Scrya librarian will have more liberty to do his job as Hayate's advisor more freely. Also will help that Zafira will be a much more obvious bodyguard which will help Yuuno conceal his superb defensive powers for a key moment xD.

About the "scary wolf thing" Zafira is also able to adopt a puppy form just like Arf xD.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-30, 03:35

"Replacing" Zafira lets him pursue a hobby, like teaching karate.

Also, a big and obvious bodyguard makes people pay more attention to Hayate as someone who might have good reason to need a bodyguard, which can alienate her from potential friends while also drawing attention from the very sort she might need protection from.

Yuuno is much lower key, and will draw none of the wrong attention.

Also, being followed by a puppy and leaving that puppy to walk home on its own is also suspicious.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 03:46

Also, being followed by a puppy and leaving that puppy to walk home on its own is also suspicious.

Well trained dogs isn't something unheard of xD

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 04:01

Well trained dogs isn't something unheard of xD

Indeed. I once saw a dog cross the street on the crosswalk on its own.

We need to find some way to get him back in the show. Lord knows we need more male charcters. :heh:

Keroko

2012-01-30, 05:47

"Replacing" Zafira lets him pursue a hobby, like teaching karate.

Has it occured to you though, that Zafira likes being a bodyguard? And that, to him, it is a hobby?

Also, just because he's good with defensive spells does not mean Yuuno's a good bodyguard.

rxrx

2012-01-30, 06:01

I mean, it is good that people appreciate Yunno, but I think it is a bad idea to shaft someone away just to bring him out. It is unfair to Zaffy and I like him. He is also a victim like Yunno, so it makes no sense to shaft him away.

Like Keroko says, I think Zaffy likes being a bodyguard to Hayate and at the same time enjoys teaching karate to kids as well. No reason why he can't fulfill both roles.

Lycodrake

2012-01-30, 06:41

Indeed. I once saw a dog cross the street on the crosswalk on its own.

We need to find some way to get him back in the show. Lord knows we need more male charcters. :heh:
Undoubtedly not going to happen in canon. The only consistent male character is Bardiche. Thoma doesn't quite count, since Force is mainly about him...and he still is getting pushed aside. =.=;;;

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-30, 13:20

I wasn't thinking about shafting Zafira, I was thinking about arranging more time for him to be teaching Arf.

Which would mean giving Arf more "scenes".

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 17:17

Undoubtedly not going to happen in canon. The only consistent male character is Bardiche. Thoma doesn't quite count, since Force is mainly about him...and he still is getting pushed aside. =.=;;;

So you're telling me the most consistent male character is actually an "it" :uhoh:

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 17:20

I find solace in the fact that Veyron is getting to do a decent amount of badass stuff and is also the only Huckebein aside Arnage with something remotely resembling to a personality xD

Rising Dragon

2012-01-30, 17:24

I still don't see how Force is pushing Touma aside.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 17:25

Until Touma just takes him apart with his protagonist powers the next time they fight.

I still don't see how Force is pushing Touma aside.

The Aces get almost equal billing with him even though he's a new character that hasn't gotten the chance to develop much.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 17:26

I still don't see how Force is pushing Touma aside.

I guess they're refering to his role until Ch. 15. But i'm more positive about him right now, hpe that what we've seen in the G.O.D. game is actual foreshadowing of his developement xD.

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 17:31

Y'all know there was once a pretty cool guy that was able to block off both Nanoha and Fate despite having less PEW PEW power but due to mad skillz. He was also promoted to admiral of a cool ship which for some reason never sees that much combat. Have you all forgotten about him? Well, I know Tsuzuki has. ;) :(

Keroko

2012-01-30, 18:18

The Aces get almost equal billing with him even though he's a new character that hasn't gotten the chance to develop much.

Equal? Thoma's still deeply involved, if not central to the majority of Force's plotlines. That's not 'pushing aside' by any standard.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 18:25

He happens to have the power that the villains do, just bigger and badder, and maybe has a grudge against one we haven't seen yet. I'd hardly consider that 'deeply involved' or central to anything. The Aces are the ones actually in charge and making decisions. He's nominally the protagonist, but that's it.

Keroko

2012-01-30, 18:40

He's got the critical item the bad guys are after, has a special type of eclipse important to the Hucks, he carries a tome of a type seen wielded by only the leader of the Hucks and befriended a reactor central to the bad guys research.

He's in the center. Deep in the center.

And the Aces making the decisions means he's not the main character? Yee, I guess that means Nanoha, Hayate and Fate were just side-characters in S1 and A's, huh?

00-Raiser

2012-01-30, 18:42

And what's been focused on recently? Thoma's training, ie, his growth as a mage. He's still very much center stage.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 18:43

All of those except one are powers he happens to have that aren't indicative of his character at all.

And what's been focused on recently? Thoma's training, ie, his growth as a mage. He's still very much center stage.

I was speaking more in terms of his character. Him growing stronger is kind of a given in this sort of series.

Keroko

2012-01-30, 18:45

All of those except one are powers he happens to have that aren't indicative of his character at all.

This... makes no sense at all.

He has powers and items very important to people important to the plot. That makes him central to the plot. Characters central to the plot are main characters. It's really that simple.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 18:50

And what's been focused on recently? Thoma's training, ie, his growth as a mage. He's still very much center stage.

more like his growth as a warrior/soldier as he's not exactly a mage per se. But yeah he was always in the middle of all this. The only big difference is that only recently he started to do pro-active main character stuff instead of being a passive main character.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 18:51

I agree that he's the main character. My point was that he hasn't gotten to develop much as one, primarily because of the Aces still being in the story when theirs has concluded.

Keroko

2012-01-30, 19:04

Define 'develop.'

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 19:13

Progression from how he was at the beginning of the story to something noticeably different.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-30, 19:16

That fits Nanoha too, and yet I don't see anyone complaining about her lack of development in any season she appears in...

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 19:18

People have complained about Nanoha stagnating in the first two seasons, especially from non-fans. At the very least, you will notice people saying that the first two seasons are about someone other than Nanoha.

However StrikerS Nanoha is noticeably different, especially towards the tail end of StrikerS, and has developed as a person, not just in abilities or looks either. :p I think for all of that season's faults, it was helpful towards Nanoha has a character very much so.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 19:19

She got some in StrikerS, though, even if it was...pretty much entirely off-screen.

People keep posting while I'm in the reply window.

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 19:24

She got some in StrikerS, though, even if it was...pretty much entirely off-screen.

Well, it's true that it was often offscreen, but it was still shown well enough to make an impact, such as the incident that showed that Nanoha was still very mortal, and that all this energy use is gonna have a negative impact on her life.

The most overt thing is that Nanoha went from someone who just wanted to help people to someone who can give that help on a more focused basis, as in seeking more concrete goals as opposed to just befriending whoever comes across. Examples include being an instructor, but most certainly her raising a child. Even though I don't like Vivio at all, that plot device did help a lot.

People keep posting while I'm in the reply window.

And that's why you hit quote! :p

Or type faster.

Keroko

2012-01-30, 19:26

Reckoner

2012-01-30, 19:27

Nanoha's character is incredibly simplistic and is devoid of any depth whatsoever. I see practically no difference in her between episode 1 of season 1 and pretty much throughout all of strikers (A little side development, but really it was barely anything).

Not that she's a bad character, but she basically amounts to a superman type character while I much prefer ones like Batman.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-30, 19:33

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 19:33

So Nanoha only got decent development by the third season of her own show... But even putting that aside, given that the plot of Force has barely started, to call foul on character growth something which usually doesn't happen until halfway a series at its earliest is rather premature a complaint, wouldn't you say?

I have to disagree with you, Keroko.

Just because they took the time with their first main lead, doesn't mean it's okay to do it with the new guy especially considering Nanoha's character did have notable issues, despite the attempts at development

You have to note that Nanoha had the disadvantage of having to start from scratch. Not only had they had to spend time developing her, but they also had to set up everything (the world, concepts, and such).

There's inevitably going to be a higher expectation on a character that has all this foundation set up. So while we should have been patient with this franchise in 2005-- in 2012, it's only reasonable that the pace picks up. The new guys have to prove themselves to be interesting faster or they get overshadowed. Subaru and Teana had to work hard given what they had, for example, and what happened in the end is pretty subjective, but eh, it was problematic I would say.

Rising Dragon

2012-01-30, 19:44

Pretty much every entry into the Nanoha series has had to do world-building and set-up so I'm not sure that really counts.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 20:00

Pretty much every entry into the Nanoha series has had to do world-building and set-up so I'm not sure that really counts.

I think Archon's ponit has to do with the fact that while it's true each season adds to new bits of world building and such they haven't the same disadvatnage as Season One. StrikerS draw much attention from the popularity achieved by A's and next seasons followed suit. It's a bless and a curse a the same time. With less work on world building there's more space to character developement but at the same time the new characters have to live up to expectations raised by past seasons and characters which lead to the subjective results Archon was talking about.

Force is very controversial in the sense that there are people able to enjoy it just fine and some other that even think is actually good while, on the other side, there are fans that find a fair share of exploitable flaws while some other got to the extreme of leaving the franchise in dissapointment. ViVid started more or less the same way but has fared better or at least i see much less critiscism and hate towards it.

rxrx

2012-01-30, 20:09

Vivid is interesting in its own way, but people like it more as it is focused on little girls smashing each other up and get involved in relationships. Nobody cares about Force as the main lead is male and they would complain on only the flaws and enlarged it while ignoring the good. Not saying that Force's writing is good, but some just decide to only point out the bad in it. If you really want to argue, Vivid is not that good too as it is just a moe slugfest.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-30, 20:26

rxrx

2012-01-30, 20:29

Cause Vivid have cute girls as lead while Force's ladies are either taken, out of touch or might be involved with Touma? xD

Archon_Wing

2012-01-30, 20:45

Pretty much every entry into the Nanoha series has had to do world-building and set-up so I'm not sure that really counts.

MM, while that is technically true, that is just an innate disadvantage of sequels or spinoffs. It has to do with the degree. The first seasons had to do more heavy lifting because there wasn't anything you could refer back to, without making it back up. While as if a later series starts referencing continuity it's much easier to understand and appreciate the backdrop.

My point is that every successive series should not go back to square one. They should build upon each other.

The earlier series also had the advantage of having less characters. Nanoha might not have been the most exciting character around, but she had charisma and that personality that is in love with excessive violence that was sufficient as a hook. But as the cast grew larger, the amount of creativity to make a new character stands out is greater, due to the screentime being split every each way. You gotta show why we should care about you, or else.

A good example of showcasing a new lead to truly grab center stage in a franchise was Kamille Bidan from Zeta Gundam. He succeeded because he was a stark contrast to the former hero of Amuro Ray, which also reflected a change in tone to the series to a darker one. The anime also pretty much defined his character and the situation around him within a few episodes. It was quick, but still allowed it tons of time for development. His personality was also one that stood out.

Now, clearly not that is not the only way, and I'm not saying Nanoha should be going Zeta "lol Tomino" on us. But the advantages of having a lead that has punch to them can help many of us allow a show some more patience. These things are earned, not taken for granted. Nanoha herself had a punch that defined herself, and maybe some people are looking for this.

Keroko

2012-01-31, 05:37

Halfway at its earliest? I don't think I watch the same things as you.

And yeah, he has a lot of potential for character development. But they seem to be taking a while to do anything with it, is the thing.

Now correct me if I'm interpreting your words wrong, but does that mean you consider change that happens as character establishment (like Nanoha changing from a normal girl to a magical girl in the first few episodes) development? Because in that case, Thoma's got plenty.

He went from a regular boy who knows a little magic to a boy who became an eclipse infected, we learned that he has a rather troubled past which he still carries with him (flashbacks are development too, after all) following which his infection took hold and he learned what it was like to hold great power without control, which gave him the drive to master his powers so he would never harm those close to him again.

There's inevitably going to be a higher expectation on a character that has all this foundation set up. So while we should have been patient with this franchise in 2005-- in 2012, it's only reasonable that the pace picks up. The new guys have to prove themselves to be interesting faster or they get overshadowed. Subaru and Teana had to work hard given what they had, for example, and what happened in the end is pretty subjective, but eh, it was problematic I would say.

I know, it's all subjective, but it still feels unfair critisism though. Nanoha didn't develop in A's either but nobody bat an eyelash. Teana and Subaru had to work for their place, but they actually had the chance to do so. StrikerS is over and they got their development. Thoma's getting hammered before he's even given a chance to finish. He (and most of the cast in Force, really) is being treated like a character who's series is already finished.

Exactly, like i've said both mangas are controversal on their own way but for some reason i find that ViVid's detractors are a bit less agressive than Force's ones xD.

Methinks that most of the Vivid detractors have taken to the "enjoying it despite the flaws" aproach.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-31, 05:46

I know, it's all subjective, but it still feels unfair critisism though. Nanoha didn't develop in A's either but nobody bat an eyelash. Teana and Subaru had to work for their place, but they actually had the chance to do so. StrikerS is over and they got their development. Thoma's getting hammered before he's even given a chance to finish. He (and most of the cast in Force, really) is being treated like a character who's series is already finished.

Unfair, yes. But not uncommon. In long franchises that's one of the issues new characters almost always have to face, specially in those filled with popular characters. The fact that the plot itself is forcing comparissions between the new and old cast don't help. That way, the people who feels attached to the old cast are less receptive of the changes and stuff added by the new characters and more prone to criticism.

Force hasn't ended up yet but as stated before the bad pacing is also a problem since makes some people desperate and form their judges with what they have since they run out of patience for new material xDU.

Teana and Subaru have a good start since we saw their potential but they weren't overpowered right of the bat, we see them develope and work to obtain to achieve awesomeness xD. Still the first half of StrikerS was clumsy managed and thus bored part of the audience.

Keroko

2012-01-31, 06:00

Yeah, the large role of the old cast is one of the biggest faws in Force. Compared to Vivid, where the old cast has support roles at best, you can see how it allows the new characters to shine.

Force doesn't really have awful pacing though. Slow release hampered even more by half-chapters, yes. But the pacing's allright. Vivid's pace is slower, with plot threads raised in the first chapters barely or never having been touched upon since.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-31, 06:05

Force doesn't really have awful pacing though. Slow release hampered even more by half-chapters, yes. But the pacing's allright. Vivid's pace is slower, with plot threads raised in the first chapters barely or never having been touched upon since.

I'll give you that Force's main pacing problem has more to do with it's release dates than anything but at least the whole assault on the Esquad Huckebein mini-arc gave me a feeling of those darn 5 minutes in Namek xDU.

I agree with you on ViVid. It's one of the reasons of why i'm enjoying more the tournament Arc, the pacing is still kinda slow but at least they now spent the chapters actually doing significant stuff xD

EDIT: Page claimed for Frieza ....and Bushido-chan (http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=383) xD

Archon_Wing

2012-01-31, 06:09

I know, it's all subjective, but it still feels unfair critisism though. Nanoha didn't develop in A's either but nobody bat an eyelash. Teana and Subaru had to work for their place, but they actually had the chance to do so. StrikerS is over and they got their development. Thoma's getting hammered before he's even given a chance to finish. He (and most of the cast in Force, really) is being treated like a character who's series is already finished.

Well, I did. :D I felt that it was why A's wasn't as good as it could been. It was still really good but due to other factors like Hayate and the Wolkies, as well as what I felt was the best antagonist the series ever generated. So even if Nanoha did stagnate in A's, the others helped keep it up.

I'm quite sure someone out there agrees, though I suppose there is some inconsistency running around.

As for bashing before the finish line, it can't be helped. As I said before, patience is earned, not given by default. For example, the first season of Nanoha had certain elements that had me going to buy it time to get better. If Force hasn't managed to come up with compelling things at this point, then it might just not be worth it for some to invest their time into it.

Except complaining on the internet. That always has a cost of 0 for some reason. :heh:

Keroko

2012-01-31, 07:34

Totally, if you don't like something, why waste time on it? Aside from complaints, which seems to work... almost therapeutic to some.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-31, 09:39

So will watching Cypha get beaten up.

And I dunno, it has been a couple years since he became the lead. Even if he really gets going now, making the audience wait that long is still grounds for some complaint. I mean, if they don't make it enjoyable for me, the guy reading the story without paying for it, then what has this company come to!?

Now ciorrect me if I'm interpreting your words wrong, but does that mean you consider change that happens as character establishment (like Nanoha changing from a normal girl to a magical girl in the first few episodes) development? Because in that case, Thoma's got plenty.

He went from a regular boy who knows a little magic to a boy who became an eclipse infected, we learned that he has a rather troubled past which he still carries with him (flashbacks are development too, after all) following which his infection took hold and he learned what it was like to hold great power without control, which gave him the drive to master his powers so he would never harm those close to him again.

Oh not at all. I just mean I've seen shows that have done character development before the halfway point, even if its just little stuff for fleshing them out, which hasn't happened so much with Touma. I just found it kind of a weird blanket statement.

Keroko

2012-01-31, 12:31

You say 'a couple of years' as if we've had weekly installments of the manga. But even putting that aside, no fleshing out? Given all the stuff I listed before, I'm not buying that.

I can understand not liking what you read. Really, I have no problems with it, but a lot of the of the things you don't like you try and to claim to be flaws of the story, rather than just something you don't like.

For example, you just don't care much for Thoma. And that's fine. But to then claim that he's had no development or even fleshing out when you can make an entire list of both? Not buying it.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-31, 13:00

I say it because its been two years in the real world. That's a while to be stuck with a main character they can't be bothered to make interesting.

And no, I just dislike him because he's a flawed character. A lot of stuff in Force is flawed. If something good happened, I would be happy to say so. Please don't play the whiny fan card into an intelligent discussion.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-31, 13:05

...That's...not what we were talking about.

Akiyoshi

2012-01-31, 13:37

So will watching Cypha get beaten up.

I'm crossing my fingers to see Quattro-levels of karmic payback to fall onto her xD!

And I dunno, it has been a couple years since he became the lead. Even if he really gets going now, making the audience wait that long is still grounds for some complaint. I mean, if they don't make it enjoyable for me, the guy reading the story without paying for it, then what has this company come to!?

The point is that the people who actually pày for it(aka the japanese fandom) seems to like what Force offered to them so far xDU. American and Japanese fandoms are quite different on their preferences sometimes xDU(case in point Gundam SEED, they love Kira Yamato).Well, it also helps that Force is published on a magazine alongside other mangas with their own set of fans(but IIRC the full tomes also sells decently good).

I say it because its been two years in the real world. That's a while to be stuck with a main character they can't be bothered to make interesting.

They seems to bother but their view of "interesting" seems a bit outdated, at least to me, Tohma initially gives the vibes of that 90's popular archetype of "conflicted teenager who gets involved with dark powers that forces him to take part in violent battles and release his darker side, all while receiving cool black leather clothes and an evil-looking weapon". But probably that was just the consequence of the big contrast him and the Huckebein make with the rest of the franchise in that regard. Tohma did received some fleshing out but is was not appealing to some of us. I only started to pay attention to him when i started to see bits of his actual characterization being explored. After the unecessary extended "Rescue Tohma" mini-arc ended he seems to finally started his true developing xD.

And no, I just dislike him because he's a flawed character. A lot of stuff in Force is flawed. If something good happened, I would be happy to say so. Please don't play the whiny fan card into an intelligent discussion.

I agree with you in that Tohma and Force have notorious flaws but(God forbids me), they're not completely devoid of good stuff. So far i almost totally dislike the heroes's new weapons(sans the Sword Breaker, 5th Gen Bardiche is also cool but not as cool and versatile as his original form) while i find some of the dividers and Huck-equipement interesting(Devile's Armorize power is pretty amusing while Veyron's Claw Grab becomes more and more awesome each time he uses it, hate to admit it but Cypha's Divider-944 also seems to be a darn good weapon).

I hit my head in frustration at seeing lots of people holding the idiot ball but i also found interesting stuff like the conflict between the Huckebein and Vandin Corp.(i like "Evil versus Evil" confrontations xD). And found cool stuff while seeing Veyron and Curren fighting. It takes a lot more to say the manga is "good" but is at least entertaining.

Keroko

2012-01-31, 13:51

I say it because its been two years in the real world. That's a while to be stuck with a main character they can't be bothered to make interesting.

And they can't provide any more progress without providing more chapters (or appearances in games and soundstages), which will still come out once a month max.

And no, I just dislike him because he's a flawed character. A lot of stuff in Force is flawed. If something good happened, I would be happy to say so. Please don't play the whiny fan card into an intelligent discussion.

I play the 'whiny fan card' because I continuously keep asking you to back up your claims, and you continuously fail to provide. What little you do is riddled with holes, which I will keep poking at, no matter how much you ignore it.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-31, 15:44

Akiyoshi

2012-01-31, 16:03

Keroko

2012-01-31, 16:32

Because all your examples of him having character are what powers he has and motivations, and some of the latter haven't been totally explored yet. Those aren't fleshing him out in and of themselves. Can you name some personality traits he has on their own?

Motivation is a core part of a character, it's what makes them do what they do, their drive, their goals, how you can possibly claim this isn't even part of his character is beyond me. Motivation in great part defines a character. Fate was defined by her motivation to please her mother, the Wolkenritter were defined by their motivation to save Hayate and so on and so on.

Powers, while in and of themselves are not are part of a character, the method of obtaining them and the effects they have are. In Thoma's case, the powers not only led to him meeting Lily and gaining someone to take care of, but also led to the exploration of his past, his face to face meeting with death, recognizing that power can have devastating consequences and his new goal of mastering it lest he hurts those he loves.

You want growth? In not even twenty chapters Thoma went from a boy who was just out there to put his past to rest and join the Nakajima's, to a boy who had to protect a girl, to a boy with a pained past faced with the possible perpetrators right in front of him, to a boy faced with his own death and the choice to become a murderer or die, to the boy who took the bullet and decided his own life was not worth the life of others, to a boy who was saved and now works his hardest so that his powers will never hurt those he loves.

Seriously, looking back on things Thoma is a freaking maelstrom of character growth compared to most characters in the Nanohaverse.

You want personality traits? He's one of the bravest guys out there, knowingly choosing his own death over the pains his survival would cause others. That's an act of bravery and sacrifice right up there with Reinforce.

He's persistent. Even in the face of all he's been through, he's still pushing on.

He's kind and selfless, taking care of people he barely even knows even at the cost of his own life, and asking for no reward.

He's understanding, rather than accuse the Hucks of pure evil or taking the moral high ground because he took the choice they didn't dare to, he understands what they've gone through. One can argue that this understanding goes beyond simple understanding and into the realm of naivety (and I would be inclined to agree, a personality trait doesn't always need to be a positive one after all)

He's stubborn, rather than just letting the past slip away quietly and live with the Nakajima's, he goes of on a trip, breaks into ruins and still decides to try and solve everything himself even though he's in waaay over his head.

Sunder the Gold

2012-01-31, 17:14

Touma is not one of the things that Force is getting wrong.

Neither is it wrong that the Huckebein have been so successful up to this point, or that Curren is so powerful.

The existence of a form of energy inimical to all known forms of life, magic and technology is not necessarily a bad idea. As I've pointed out before, it's basically like the Seithr from BlazBlue; a form of energy similar to but very different from True Magic. Whatever creatures it doesn't kill, it tends to mutate into something stronger and meaner.

If there was a failing with the Huckebein, it was making so many of them that none of them are getting properly fleshed out, such as explaining where they came from, how they ended up like this, and what they're trying to do.

This on top of introducing far too many new terms with no real explanation for what they mean. "Zero Effect", "Reactor", "Reactor Plug", "Strosek", "Divider"...

The far-too-sudden and very jarring appearance of new weapons and androids doesn't help.

Justin_Brett

2012-01-31, 17:38

That all sounds very nice the way you've written it. I'd read a story about that character.

Keroko

2012-02-01, 09:40

That all sounds very nice the way you've written it. I'd read a story about that character.

Then you can, because I didn't make any of these up. Every single one of these examples of growth and personality was taken from Force itself. I can make a list of chapters, even pages, where they're shown.

rxrx

2012-02-01, 09:57

Just to add a little thought, Touma is also not completely messiah like, as he still cannot let go of the past and thus like mentioned before, decides to go on a journey and get involve in all the things that is happening now. Not only that, the rage he have shown when he thought Veyron was the one whom destroyed his village shows that he is lethal as compared to the other main characters so far on the reason of vengence.

He might be a little mellow now since he fears his own power but nobody knows what will happen when the real killers appear. This is a guy whom live with a dagger alone before meeting Subaru when his village is destroyed so I think it might be interesting when the real killers appear.

Justin_Brett

2012-02-01, 11:29

He could always turn out to be a Stepford Smiler, I suppose.

It occurred to me a little while ago - I was complaining about him considering the Huckebein his friends after only knowing them for a little while, but maybe that's intentional? Like he was so affected by his backstory that he'll latch onto anyone who's nice to him at all? Or something like that.

rxrx

2012-02-01, 11:52

Not really considering them as friends, but more of the "I feel your pain" thing.　Unlike the others, Touma could understand the urge that they have and is thus more sympathatic to them. Not that he will join them or agree with what they do, but he could more or less see things in their perspective due to his carrying the virus as well.

Stepford Smiler is more like what Hayate used to be. Touma is more like a time-bomb which might explode at any time if he finds the real killer.

Justin_Brett

2012-02-01, 12:04

Personally, I could see the Hucks getting justifiably pissed when he says that, since he's only gone berserk for five minutes that wasn't the Book triggering its defenses, during which he only almost killed someone. So he doesn't really know.

rxrx

2012-02-01, 12:07

He knows how it feels if one do not kill to subdue the virus. It might not be long, but Touma is not an idiot and he can relate to why the Hucks decide to kill. Not all would choose to kill himself when given the choice to kill others to deal with the virus.

Akiyoshi

2012-03-27, 23:51

I know what this franchise really needs ...a masked VIGILANTE xD!

It will be an interesting contrast with all the govberment sponsored heroines we know and love xD Fighting the battles the TSAB don't want to fight, breaking the rules Section Six can't. Delivering justice against polemic villains like the Huckebein or the Vandin Corporation xD!

Teana is right, the heroes are too law-binded. They need the help of an outlaw xD!

EDIT: Page claimed for uhm... The Mystic Avenger xD!

itanshi1

2012-03-28, 00:01

/me headdesk

Rising Dragon

2012-03-28, 00:34

If you want to get really technical we already had that with Aria and Lotte.

Akiyoshi

2012-03-28, 00:42

If you want to get really technical we already had that with Aria and Lotte.

Yeah but that was a really small glimpse and at the end they were also working for a goverment cell after all.

With Teana's inconformism about law-limits, her intelligence, skills, death family background and resources she could become a very sucessfull masked vigilante xD

itanshi1

2012-03-28, 01:39

We've discussed this in crossover likely, batman

Kaijo

2013-01-13, 23:25

Not sure where to put this request, so I'll stick it in the general Nanoha thread here.

I've recently gotten into subtitling, and mostly teaching myself the ins and outs. Mostly, I wanted to add song subtitles to my fansubbed episodes, but then I began to branch out. Now, I'm adding colored lettering to subtitles, to better denote who is talking in Nanoha, ie, pink outlines for Nanoha, gold for Fate, etc. Currently working on StrikerS, as once I get the colors set there, I can use them for the prior two seasons.

What I am looking for, is perhaps some people willing to take a look at the colors, fonts, and what not that I've done, and see if it looks okay. Does something need to be a bit darker? Lighter? Different font? Different font size? Any other things I might change? Send me a PM or VM if interested.

Also, if you are quite familiar with .ass subtitle files in relation to .mkv files, and would be willing to answer a few questions via IMs, PMs, or VMs, let me know. While I have learned a lot on my own, it's been through trial and error. Having someone who can answer a question or two here and there, would be helpful. Thanks!

Oh, and when I'm done, if there are people interested in colored subtitle Nanoha files, I'll provide them. But mostly I'm just doing this to teach myself, and have a bit of fun.

Justin_Brett

2013-01-14, 00:40

Better tell for who? Deaf people?

NorthernFallout

2013-01-14, 03:19

I would advise not using different colors as it will easily clash with the background. White text with black borders will work 99% of the time. Even if you only change the border colors you may have problems when something bright shows up, in the cases when you have yellow borders and white text. The alternative I suppose would be adding name tags if you want to identify who says what.

Good fonts for subtitles includes sans serif fonts. I personally use Antique Olive, but there are many good fonts to use. Check out my Soundstages subbing for examples of all of the above.

Kaijo

2013-01-14, 08:26

Well, part of it is mainly an experiment; Can I do colored lettering and still have it work? Maybe or maybe not. I have seen a few series where colored lettering was used, and it seemed to work fine. But that's just me; hence, my wanting to see how well it works for other people. So, it's mainly just for my own teaching (and there are already white subtitles out there for those who prefer those).

Also, I'm kinda curious if the type of subtitle, and the variety of styles, subconsciously affects how well someone judges a series.

And Justin, I have no idea what you're saying. This would be in regards to fansubbed anime.