Penguin Drum - Episode 24 (END) Discussion / Poll [Archive]

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Kairin

2011-12-21, 22:51

Welcome to the discussion thread for Penguin Drum, Episode 24 (END).

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Catalan

2011-12-22, 09:06

This last episode has an awful lot to address.

Most of all, I'd like to see Momoka's choice of actions as PotC toward Kanba explained. As is, it seems to me like she did more to drive him toward his current actions than to dissuade him, which goes against everything we know about Momoka's history with Sanetoshi. I presume we're being left out of certain interactions between PotC and Kanba (and not of the intimate kind :p). However, I can't foresee any kind of "secret plan" between them which would justify domestic terrorism.

Of less importance to the plot, there's a minor omission that nags me as well. What exactly was "Project M" in regard to Masako?

I fear I will only recognize more problems in the end, but I'm still hoping to be impressed.

remyblue

2011-12-22, 11:37

Hello! More of a lurker but I made an account just so I could join in on the last episode.

This has been an awesome ride! I'll be sad to see it all end but at the same time I can't wait to see what sort of an end he has in store for us.

I'm optimistic about the finale and I'm hoping for an Utena-ish ending myself. I don't expect everything to have a clear cut answer but as long I can get the gist of it I'll be happy.

Grim_Reaper

2011-12-22, 12:37

Best ending ever, best anime ever.
I'm optimistic about the finale and I'm hoping for an Utena-ish ending myself. I don't expect everything to have a clear cut answer but as long I can get the gist of it I'll be happy.
It's indeed like this.

remyblue

2011-12-22, 12:52

It's indeed like this.

I KNOW! I SAW! : D

I missed the a little of the start and I'll have to wait for the sub before I can fully take it in or understand it but I loved it! It was beautiful and it hit all the emotional points I think it needed to. So good. So sad it's over, now Thursday is going to be just like any other day of the week.... *sob*

And it made me cry. Evil show.

LOL, well now that it's over maybe we'll get a really strange movie someday where all the characters turn into trains or something.

Grim_Reaper

2011-12-22, 12:56

And it made me cry. Evil show.

I know that feel, bro, I certainly know it.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-22, 13:00

I'm just happy that Ringo didn't die.
And that Shouma said "I love you" (aishiteru) to her.
All in all, it was a very trollastic ending, but I liked it.

mysh

2011-12-22, 13:09

i'm just happy that ringo didn't die.
and that shouma said "i love you" (aishiteru) to her.

Yay!!! :):):)

Kazu-kun

2011-12-22, 13:15

yay!!! :):):)

mmm... If I tell you that Shouma kicked the bucket right after that...would you stilll be that happy?

Well, at least he died saving Ringo :)

YayPepsi

2011-12-22, 13:17

I'm so happy!

I cried my eyes out to be sure, but overall I was satisfied. The thing I was so worried about was Kanba getting a bad ending. All I wanted was for things to end well for him, since I'm such a huge fan of his. I was sure he was going to be redeemed, but I was starting to have second thoughts about it. I'm happy that his ending wasn't so bad. In fact, it was great. He saved Himari (what he had dedicated his entire life to). Even though it cost him so much, and now he'll never be with her, that was always his goal and he accomplished it. (And he got a goodbye kiss from her! And when they were kids he got an apple from her and shared it with Shouma.) Plus, he got reborn with Shouma as his brother. They have each other now. And who knows? Maybe some day they'll reconnect with their friends/siblings. I have to watch the sub to know the rest for sure though.

The ending with the note
"I love you,
-Your Brothers"
made me cry so hard though.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-22, 13:22

Plus, he got reborn with Shouma as his brother.

No, they didn't get reborn. Their fate was Campanella's fate, if you know what I mean.

YayPepsi

2011-12-22, 13:24

Ah, I see. :heh: Well, even if not, that's still not a bad ending.

Kirarakim

2011-12-22, 13:25

I can't watch it for a few more hours (torture) and I am trying to be good and not click on the spoiler links. Obviously I was not able to stay out of the thread completely.

But I'm happy to see most of the responses have been positive. That should help me hold out.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-22, 13:33

So, in the end the penguindrum could only transfer a person's fate to another person. But only the diary could transfer the overall fate (re-write reality).

The diary wasn't a penguindrum then, but something more powerful.

EDIT: I just realized Yuri and Tabuki got the best ending lol.

mark1246

2011-12-22, 17:13

Saw the ending for RAW, and it nice but sad because Ringo and Shouma cant be together and haven't kiss and souma turn into KIDS and everyone forget them :(

Total Elfen Lied ending :(

What wrong with the anime industry today!!!?!?!/ I mean even the Happy cute anime get this sad ending to them and we say “whyyyyyy” there so much sadness going on here!

Kazu-kun

2011-12-22, 17:32

ending

Use spoiler tags, please.

mark1246

2011-12-22, 17:42

Use spoiler tags, please.

Im not be a troll or anything but it won’t work for me :( i don’t know what happen

Kirarakim

2011-12-22, 20:17

The series wasn't perfect and there were definitely things I was dissatisfied with (especially in the second half). But you know what that ending was fabulous max. I think I would go as far as saying this was the best ending of 2011.

I love how it all tied back to Night on the Galactic Railroad & I thought the Penguindrum being the apple that Kanba & Shouma shared was just poetic

And yay I got my Ringo/Shouma scene. I wish these two got more but I was happy I got confirmation that Shouma loved her.

Finally the ending really hit me hard when I saw the photo and realized it was just Himari & then that note in the bear. That's when I really started tearing up (no subs needed). But I am glad that it looks like Ringo & Himari are now together while Shouma and Kanba are together in the after life.

It's weird but I wonder if Kanba & Shouma together was Ikuhara's way of bringing Giovanni and Campanella back together.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-22, 20:40

Ikuhara's way of bringing Giovanni and Campanella back together.

I really like this idea. And maybe he was thinking along that line.

But yeah, it was a good ending despite being quite bittersweet.

As for Ringo, I think a little less focus on her in the first part of the series and a bit more in the second part would have worked better for her character. She was still all kinds of awesome though, and her role at the ending was pretty fabulous max :cool:.

Utsuro no Hako

2011-12-22, 23:15

I'll wait until the subs before making any substantive comments, but for now I'll say this was one damn fine looking episode. The whole series has had an old-school shoujo look, but they really cranked it up here. I sorta wish Ikuhara and this whole team would turn around and remake The Rose of Versailles.

Sackett

2011-12-22, 23:17

Yuutsu

2011-12-22, 23:36

The ending is implying there is no room in the world for man, only woman.

That just seems off.

This way it feels like man is forever sundered from woman.

Your comment is very confusing. 0.o

Even more confusing than the ending which I thought was very confusing.

YayPepsi

2011-12-22, 23:57

Subs are out.

After watching the subs, I loved this episode. But there was one little detail that was so beautiful to me. When Kanba walked past Sanetoshi, Sanetoshi told him "You will disappear without leaving anything behind in this world. You won't even leave behind a speck of dust." But then in the end, we see that he was wrong. Himari wakes up with that shard on her forehead, and it leaves a cut behind. Kanba did leave something behind in the world.

I also appreciated the fact that Kanba told Masako that she was his precious sister and that he loved her. Even if it was in a dream, at least he finally told her. She deserved that.

I cried my eyes out at that note scene again. During my first watch, I was crying pretty much throughout the whole thing. In my second watch, I managed to hold it together until Kanba started shattering. In my third watch, I only cried a little during that scene...but I started bawling again at the note scene. It's just so sad. I hope they can all be happy in the afterlife together or something.

blue_sora

2011-12-23, 00:48

So the real pairing in this series is KanbaxShouma! :D

Lol, joking aside, it seems sharing the apple of fate means becoming the family of each other, not a lover as it shows in the Takakura family. Actually the ending really confused me especially those transfer of fate. Who saved who actually? I thought Shouma sacrificed himself for Kanba, but Kanba died too, then Ringo transfer the fate to save Himari, right? I'm really bad at interpreting those symbolism things....

Lota

2011-12-23, 00:59

Uwaaaa... And there goes the ending. I think it was perfect. Bittersweet, but I liked the way everything turned out. I don't cry all that much, but my eyes were tearing up near the ending, and after Himari saw the bear with the note, I brought out the waterworks... So sad... I'm happy for them though. I'm glad that Himari and Ringo stayed friends, that Kanba and Shouma became real brothers, glad for Tabuki and Yuri, and for Masako... But I think that the dream and the bear with the note will haunt them forever.

And I can't help but wonder... do Yuri and Tabuki remember anything? It would be weird if they didn't and awkward if they did... Imagine them running into one of the those four O.O

The music was very fitting.

Anyway, I'm really happy. I guess I'll rewach this series once again after a while. It has become one of my all time favourites :D

ninja_pintu

2011-12-23, 01:18

There were just so many things I loved in this episode. I just loved the scene in which Kanba gives half his apple to Shouma. Just shows how he cares about everyone in his family. And that ending T_T. It wasn't happy but it was better than anything I expected from the way last few episodes were going. Bittersweet ending really suits this anime.

And I am sure RingoXShouma fans were happy with this episode:heh:

Oh and that ending scene with Shouma and Kanba walking and Kanba saying death is just the beginning was just beautiful. And here whole series he believed death was the end of everything:heh:

Kazu-kun

2011-12-23, 01:20

Kanba and Shouma became real brothers

They didn't become real brothers IMO. Most likely they "became" Giovanni and Campanella. They're not alive; they're traveling the Milky Way, so to speak. That's my interpretation at least.

ndqanh_vn

2011-12-23, 01:40

Just finished the ending. Definitely got the Utena vibe from it. But it's really a bittersweet ending. It could be better, but I don't know how.

I have never realized how elegant and poetic this series is.

felekin

2011-12-23, 02:31

I don't think they could of ended it any better c:

Kyuu

2011-12-23, 02:33

I'm just happy that Ringo didn't die.
And that Shouma said "I love you" (aishiteru) to her.
All in all, it was a very trollastic ending, but I liked it.

Did he at least pollenate her beforehand? :heh::eyespin:

Kazu-kun

2011-12-23, 02:36

Oh, I just realized the one who put the note inside Himari's bear was #3, who is walking out of the room while Himari enters.

Interesting!

ndqanh_vn

2011-12-23, 02:45

Oh, I just realized the one who put the note inside Himari's bear was #3, who is walking out of the room while Himari enters.

Interesting!

Going to miss those Penguin...I want a penguin plush already...

Sol Falling

2011-12-23, 03:13

You know who talks about boxes? Sanetoshi talks about boxes.

The Apple is a gift for those "chosen to die for love".

Who gets the Apple? People who have the Scorpion Soul.

So what did Shouma give back to Kanba this episode? His Scorpion Soul.

lol, probably it ran out or something 'cause the PoC sucked too much out of him. So Shouma had to give it back.

If you stay in the box you turn invisible. You don't amount to anything. You also die. That's why Sanetoshi wanted to get out.

But, if you die for love instead, then you get the Apple. And then it's just the beginning, or something like that.

I'mma ship Himari x Ringo, then Himari x Kanba when they somehow get back together again, lol. Forceful delusion happy end, whooo!

Random troll thought at the end of the anime: anyone wanna go count who we saw naked more, Himari or Ringo? :P

Triple_R

2011-12-23, 03:18

That was a very nice and dramatic final episode. I do like how things went full circle here, as Kanba-shouta and Shouma-shouta had the same conversation here as those two boys had way back in Episode 1.

Part of me would have preferred a happier end, but all-told, this was pretty good. I'll probably have more to say on this tomorrow, when I'm more well-rested.

For now, though, let me just say (somewhat jokingly ;) ) I called (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3763897&postcount=1342) it!

Himari's "fated one" was indeed... Ringo! :heh:

Himari, by her own words, feels relaxed in Ringo's presence, and Ringo makes sure that Himari is not lonely. With the beautiful but tragic sacrifice of the brothers, there's no male to stand in the way of their inevitable bond.

Yuri end FTW! :p

Sorry, but I couldn't resist, because it is a bit funny given my wild (and admittedly pretty far off) speculations of three months back.

In complete seriousness, both the Ringo/Shouma and Kanba/Himari pairs had lovely final moments together, and I'm pretty pleased with them.

I will also say that the seiyu work in this show was simply all-around fantastic, and this episode certainly showcased that nicely. I hope that the seiyu for the four main characters, as well as Sanetoshi, all get more roles soon. This anime had excellent emoting from its actors/actresses.

fertygo

2011-12-23, 04:47

Its ridiculous, I will not argue if you call the ending is shitty n ruining the series... And I'm not understanding anything in this eps, not any shit of it... But wow, I just couldn't hold my tears, I'm feel really sad watching the second half, seriously Ikuhara is just weird guy.

BloodyKitty

2011-12-23, 05:00

Dop

2011-12-23, 05:04

I sorta wish Ikuhara and this whole team would turn around and remake The Rose of Versailles.

I have to agree, and I couldn't imagine any anime director capable of doing a better job!

So, that ending. I grabbed this episode this morning before I set off to work as I couldn't wait, and my head is still fizzing.
Visually it was a stunning episode, completely electrifying and fabulous max!

The final seizon senryaku sequence, Himari walking through the shards of broken glass, referred to the previous sequences while completely outdoing them.

I think what Ikuhara has created here is a show that people are still going to be talking about years in the future, discussing its symbolism and meaning.
Yes, there may be a few hanging threads, and yes, I do think that perhaps Mario was meant to play a larger role but got sidelined for time constraints, but sometimes it's better when things don't all get explained away in the end, but left to the imagination ("Imagine!") of the viewer, to read into them what they may.

One of the best shows this year, in my honest opinion.

fertygo

2011-12-23, 05:30

I'm still pretty much speechless from everything I've just watched. I just don't know. Almost everything still doesn't make sense, but I just can't deny the emotional impact. *sobbing*

Eschaton from tvtropes gave a very interesting speculation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13101108240A39480100&page=29#706) of this final episode and the series as a whole. I'm still a bit confused about the "apple sharing" parts, but it definitely gave me a much better understanding of the symbolisms of Penguindrum. A very worthy read.

Damn that was good read, especially the box part, that very make sense and giving more meaning and message to the whole series.

Btw Damn... still sobbing a bit here, haha...

Its just amazing how I cried a lot in Kanba/Shoma scene, because one of this show weakness that people often mentioning is they failed to make we give a damn to the charas of this show, and I must agree with that, they could done better job on that. But this last episode still manage to make me sad as hell about Kanba and Shoma sacrifices even with not understanding anything, that just weird... almost like some hypnotize.

I will really treasure this experiences, despite all the flaw of this show.

Utsuro no Hako

2011-12-23, 05:41

I think I get the gist of it.

But I don't really like it.

The ending is implying there is no room in the world for man, only woman.

That just seems off.

If Shouma had returned the apple to Kanba, and thus Kanba and Himari were united (probably in death) and Ringo and Shouma were united (by Shouma sharing the price with her or something), then the ending would have felt whole.

This way it feels like man is forever sundered from woman.

But doesn't Momoka end up essentially the same ending? (Though I guess she doesn't like the brothers enough to hang out with them in the afterworld.) And Tabuki got to stay behind with Yuri.

When Kanba walked past Sanetoshi, Sanetoshi told him "You will disappear without leaving anything behind in this world. You won't even leave behind a speck of dust." But then in the end, we see that he was wrong. Himari wakes up with that shard on her forehead, and it leaves a cut behind. Kanba did leave something behind in the world.

I think that moment finally encapsulates what Sanetoshi's problem is -- he can't let go. The idea that he might disappear without anyone remembering him is more than he can handle. He'd rather murder people than be forgotten. He reminds me of a great moment from the film Jacob's Ladder when Danny Aiello's character says:

Eckhart saw Hell too. He said: The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Even though Penguin Drum is coming at things from a Buddhist(?) perspective instead of Christian, I think that pretty well sums up the message of the series.

Kirarakim

2011-12-23, 05:55

SoFarGone

2011-12-23, 06:05

Pretty confusing finale for me but still emotional.

Kyuu

2011-12-23, 06:28

I am satisfied with this ending. Loose ends got tied. And everyone moves on.

Malkuth

2011-12-23, 06:41

Solid last episode, I would have given it a 10 if VLC did not decided by itself to begin playing it first from my 21-24 playlist and me realizing it half way through :mad:

Saw the ending for RAW, and it nice but sad because Ringo and Shouma cant be together and haven't kiss and souma turn into KIDS and everyone forget them :(

Total Elfen Lied ending :(

What wrong with the anime industry today!!!?!?!/ I mean even the Happy cute anime get this sad ending to them and we say “whyyyyyy” there so much sadness going on here!

Something very good indeed, yet rare despite your impression... most of the times there is no ending, or some silly happy end :heh:

So the real pairing in this series is KanbaxShouma! :D

Nah... Ringo X Himari, Yuri X teacher, HxH, Momoka X pink-haired guy... There is one pairing for everyone's taste :p

In the end one of the best anime I have followed in these last 8 years :D

Haak

2011-12-23, 07:06

Fuck, this ending was more confusing than Inception and Mujun Rasen combined. I only barely managed to make the gist of it, and like I said with TaMnI, only having the gist of it isn't enough. Because of that it wasn't quite as emotional as the other episodes I've seen that unfortunately puts a dent into the finale imo. It already reached the highest score (a very very high score mind you) but just couldn't surpass it.

But it was a great finish any case. I'm going to miss this show.

Kanon

2011-12-23, 07:25

I'm pretty satisfied with this ending overall. Yuri and Tabuki found happiness together, Shouma told Ringo he loved, and Ringo and Himari remained friends. That's exactly what I wanted to see.

Nevertheless, although I got the gist of it (at least I think I did...), I wish it had been a bit more straightforward. Too much symbolism kills symbolism imo.

Edit: for those like me who might have missed it, here's the final and best end card:

http://s13.postimage.org/fsciqstc3/1324630805045.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/fsciqstc3/)

I'm loving the symmetry.

mysh

2011-12-23, 07:45

mmm... If I tell you that Shouma kicked the bucket right after that...would you stilll be that happy?

Well, at least he died saving Ringo :)

Oh my, what an ending. I watched it twice and cried both times.
Of course I would prefer Sho&Ringo-chan finale, but this was almost perfect.

BTW, how do you understand the boxes part? I mean not the metaphors Sanetoshi uses, but the "10 years ago" situation Shouma and Kanba were in. That was a very powerful scene but WTF was it?

Malkuth

2011-12-23, 07:56

Fuck, this ending was more confusing than Inception and Mujun Rasen combined...

Inception and Rakkyou 5th were confusing :twitch: try Lost Highway or even better A Space Odyssey :eyespin:

Otherwise I am inclined to agree. I still try to sort out where the symbolism ended and the actual events begun, but doing this is one of the things I loved about this show.

http://s13.postimage.org/fsciqstc3/1324630805045.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/fsciqstc3/)

I'm loving the symmetry.

Helps because you can trace and copy/paste the palette :rolleyes:

Haak

2011-12-23, 08:00

Inception and Rakkyou 5th were confusing :twitch: try Lost Highway or even better A Space Odyssey :eyespin:

Heh, I didn't actually find them that confusing but I did find Mujun Rasen a bit of a challenge to follow. (But yeah Inception was fairly easy to get). It's just that a lot of other people say they're confusing. It's the best analogy I could think of. (Fail :heh:)

prototype_sky

2011-12-23, 08:25

Pretty confusing finale for me but still emotional.

Ditto too many metaphors :confused:

Sides

2011-12-23, 09:12

Don't know what to say, except it was a fitting ending for the series.
Like the ending scene, where apparently shoma and kanba were walking down the road with the penguins ducking behind them.

Myssa Rei

2011-12-23, 09:14

Katapan

2011-12-23, 09:20

Maybe I'm a little disappointed that Double H didn't have a larger presence in Himari's life at the end (in fact it appears in this reality she's just a fan.)

I think that may be my biggest disappointment (which is sort of nitpicking as I am very satisfied with the finale) - sure, what happened makes sense, but it feels like Triple H could really have happened without compromising the whole Penguindrum plot. I knew it'd be foolish to except a 'conventional' happy ending, but this is one happy outcome I was holding onto and thought had fairly good odds of happening, and it would certainly have gotten a few more sobs out of me.

Ah well, not that I'm not already a wreck, though. I don't know which scene I found to be the most emotional, between Shouma's hand reaching Kanba's, or the note from the brothers. I don't think I could've hoped for a better ending for Kanba who is definitely the character who left the strongest impression on me, even though I ended up growing attached to about everyone, which is never an easy feat. Series of the year, thank you Ikuhara.

-Sho-

2011-12-23, 10:04

That was a wtf ending with all those symbolisms but it's one of the gem this year.

ThereminVox

2011-12-23, 10:06

Oh, God, I'll never be able to look at #2's comedic gluttony the same way again, now that we have an idea of where it comes from.

The peice of information we were missing up until now was, of course, the sharing of the apple between Kanba and Shouma. Once we had that, everything wraps up really perfectly. It only makes sense that Shouma, who once shared Kanba's fate to live, would also want to share his fate in the end, especially if it meant saving Ringo.

The transfer of fate flames really do reference the flames of Scorpio. I probably should have made the connection before, but it wasn't until now that it really was clear to me.

I am really, really pleased with how the show came full circle with the conversation between the two boys outside the house in episode 1.

Boy 1: Like I said, the apple is the universe itself! A universe in the palm of your hand. It's what connects this world and the other world.
Boy 2: "The other world"?
Boy 1: The world Campanella and the other passengers are heading to!
Boy 2: What does that have anything to do with an apple?
Boy 1: In other words, the apple is also a reward for those who have chosen love over everything else!
Boy 2: But everything's over when you're dead.
Boy 1: It's not over! What I'm trying to say is that's actually where everything begins!
Boy 2: I'm not following you at all.
Boy 1: I'm talking about love! Why don't you get it?

Honestly, I was expecting a less cogent finale considering who is at the helm. I'm glad it all scans in the end, although there are still plot points which feel like they were more or less dropped midway through, mostly involving Mario and PotC.

Five goddamned stars. I was glad to be along for the ride with you all.

Kakkou

2011-12-23, 10:06

Ah well, not that I'm not already a wreck, though. I don't know which scene I found to be the most emotional, between Shouma's hand reaching Kanba's, or the note from the brothers. I don't think I could've hoped for a better ending for Kanba who is definitely the character who left the strongest impression on me, even though I ended up growing attached to about everyone, which is never an easy feat. Series of the year, thank you Ikuhara.
My thoughts exactly. Oh my god, this ending. I'm still thoroughly electrified. Fabulous max doesn't even begin to express how I feel about the final episode. Almost every scene was amazing. Each character getting the focus they deserve and the emotions that were conveyed through the great imagery, stunningly beautiful soundtrack and the voice actors performances. Just so goddamn amazing. I'm thoroughly satisfied and more.

Ikuhara, you bastard you. Don't come up with a new series so soon. I don't think I can handle the fabulous max.

Wilfriback

2011-12-23, 10:20

A friend of me told me, this series will perpetuate its status quo until death.

He was right... literally.

Triple_R

2011-12-23, 10:48

Honestly, I was expecting a less cogent finale considering who is at the helm. I'm glad it all scans in the end, although there are still plot points which feel like they were more or less dropped midway through, mostly involving Mario and PotC.

Yeah, I strongly agree with this.

The symbolism is pretty thick, and I have yet to attempt to decipher it all, but I honestly don't care much because:

1. The anime goes full circle in a nice and clear-cut way.

2. The basic jist of what happened to the characters themselves is fairly clear. You don't necessarily need to get all the symbolism in order to get what happened to all the most important characters.

However, I do feel that Mario, PotC, and Double-H were left hanging a bit when all was said and done. It just occurred to me that in PotC's case, we still don't really know the exact nature of the connection between her and Momoka. That's been left entirely to fan speculation it seems.

Part of me still would have preferred a lasting Shouma/Ringo romance at the end, but what we did get was pretty good. Himari certainly seems better off now than she was at the start of the anime, and Ringo appears happy as well.

Given the actions he had engaged in, I don't think Kanba deserved a "Happily Ever After" ending, to be blunt about it. So this was probably the best possible ending for his character: He achieves his passionate dream of saving Himari at all costs, and that means that he sacrificed himself.

Part of me thinks that Shouma deserved a happier ending, but perhaps there needs to be a bit of bitterness in this bittersweet ending in order for it to not feel like an overly happy copout. Also, there's something poetic and fitting about Kanba and Shouma fading away together. It makes it seem a little less sad for each of them, I think.

With this ending, I would now consider MPD one of the five best anime of 2011, and it was probably the most creative anime of 2011. It's been a great ride, from start to finish.

Romanticide

2011-12-23, 10:57

Anyone else notice this little bit?

http://unequivocalhorizon.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/gge2808b_mawarue2808b_penguindrume2808b_-e2808b_24e2808b_e51b0c58-mkv_snapshot_21-19_2011-12-23_22-06-03.png

Himari's not the only one with something from the brothers (the scar on her forehead). It looks like Ringo has one too, hidden by her uniform most likely.

I noticed it when i rewatched, that's the hand she reached out to Shouma with when he "took" the punishment.

YayPepsi

2011-12-23, 11:04

I don't think I could've hoped for a better ending for Kanba who is definitely the character who left the strongest impression on me, even though I ended up growing attached to about everyone, which is never an easy feat. Series of the year, thank you Ikuhara.

Same here. I've been a day one Kanba fan and this ending made me happy for him. Sure, he died at the end, but he was with Shouma. And like they said "It's not over. What I'm trying to say is that's actually where everything begins!"

Kirarakim

2011-12-23, 11:14

Another thing I liked about the ending is if you notice Himari looks to be wearing a school uniform at the end. So it seems Kan & Sho gave back her life both literally & Figuratively. She has school, parents, and a close friend in Ringo. I was sad to see the house is no longer the bright colors the brothers painted it, but it doesn't look drab either.

Thinking about the Kan & Sho thing more, I think the ending was the only way I could accept Kanba's redemption. I am still not sure if the terrorism themes were really done justice in the story. But I like that Kanba is saved literally by an act of kindness he did in the past.

Kanba shared the apple with Shouma & then Shouma was able to give it back to Kanba, enabling them both to save Himari. Shouma was also able to stop Ringo from sacrificing herself which I loved. Everything does feel full circle in this regard.

And while it's sad the brothers are forgotten, no one ended up alone. That I really could not have taken.

Also I love how there is so much to digest in this series. I didn't even put 2 & 2 together about why No. 2 is always eating until Thereminvox's comment, but yes it all comes back to the apple, wow!

klare

2011-12-23, 11:27

no happy ending, but it is still a good end, all 4 penguins still around :)

feel like many things remain unexplained, but they are not the major ones

overall, for me this is be one of the best series in 2011, however its unique style of story telling and presentation may not be accepted by everyone

Razziell22

2011-12-23, 11:42

Ah, That was a bittersweet ending, Himari crying at the end while reading the note from the brothers and not knowing why she is crying, broke my heart heh;_;
Not to forget the scene where Kanba shares the fruit of fate with Shouma it was really sad and beautiful at the same time... and all the Himari x Kanba and Ringo x Shouma scenes where great as well:upset: i really wanted both of those pairs to be together at the end (in heaven or real world or whatever where doesn't matter) but i guess Himari/Ringo and Kanba/Shouma is understandable and i can accept it as the ending was done beautifully imo.

I don't think I could've hoped for a better ending for Kanba who is definitely the character who left the strongest impression on me, even though I ended up growing attached to about everyone, which is never an easy feat. Series of the year, thank you Ikuhara.
Same here. I've been a day one Kanba fan and this ending made me happy for him. Sure, he died at the end, but he was with Shouma. And like they said "It's not over. What I'm trying to say is that's actually where everything begins!"

& ofc, i agree with both of you as always:p

DragoonKain3

2011-12-23, 12:00

Series still didn't answer how Himari fell out of favour with double H, when she was leaving the school back in elementary and even double H looked angry at her.

Which made me kinda sad that Triple H didn't happen in the new world, since with no answers present, I assumed the reason for them falling out was because the whole school knew that she was related to THE Takakuras. And since in the new world Himari seems to be adopted by different people (presumably the "Uncle" we've always heard about), I don't see why Triple H wouldn't happen when the main reasons for stopping that (Himari being a Takakura + Himari's health) aren't present in the new world. :(

Oh well, at least YuriXTabuki is a VERY happy end. I honestly didn't care much about the other pairings at this point, and seeing them together (or at least Tabuki finally SEEING Yuri) makes me a very happy shipper.

All in all, I found that the high point in the series was when Tabuki kidnapped Himari. And while I'm in a mixed bag about what happens after that, that episode alone made Penguin Drum the best anime series of the year for me.

tsunade666

2011-12-23, 12:47

fabulous max! and truly electrifying but even with those words are probably not enough to show how magnificent this final ending is. It's really superb that it will be forever etched inside my heart. Though it's kinda sad that I didn't understand most of the symbolism unless I read on the forums on what it meant. It kinda lost in that department but even so it manage to reach out into me or it's audience.

The final episode from the very beginning excites me to no end but leaves me with a part in my heart that's been torn apart. It's kinda sad ending. Sweet but sad and truly a bitter sweet ending. I could probably take it and understand that they sacrifice themselves to save Ringo and Himari but it hits me really hard when the people they left behind doesn't remember them at all. The physical evidence are even wipe out. With the picture and such of those two. It's kinda sad and... a sheesh what a scene to be remember. The final note with "I love you" from your brothers really hit the jackpot on my heart. I can't stop the tears now ;_; really sad ending. And in the end Shouma and Kanba are together with the endless ride of their new lives which is also the beginning but they are still dead and people who fear death won't be able to attained the apple of fate. The sharing of destiny and the changing of destiny. Such strong love and emotion in it when Ringo shout out the magical phrase. It's really electrifying moments. And Sanethoshi is left out and even Momoka are onto new journey. Masako thinking that it's all just a dream with Mario back to health but probably in her head. She still remembers Kanba.... or so I wish. It's just so sad when Shouma and Kanba where forgotten and remove from the world.

This event is so dramatic and it felt much stronger than Madoka being removed from the world. Well at least in Madoka's case. Homura was still waiting but for the brothers.... ;_; so sad :( Himari with the help of number 3 leaving behind the stuffed toyed which she treasure behind with a message slips inside it's tummy maybe a bit manage to remember those two but it looks to me she still doesn't remember in her memory but in her heart. She was crying. And the finally with the two brothers which are left out of the world taking a new trip to the new world.

Kanba's last few words are truly magnificent.

The end and the beginning ;_;

Utsuro no Hako

2011-12-23, 12:50

I just realized that the three best anime of this year had extremely similar endings.

Madoka transcends time and space to become the concept of hope, but in the process everyone forgets her except Homura and her brother.

Okabe in Steins;Gate saves Kurisu by wiping their entire relationship from existence, but in the end she retains some faint recollection of their time together.

Sho and Kan erase their existence, allowing HImari to have a full life, but leave behind a memento that triggers some memory.

I know that Himari's final lines parallel Homura's, and I'm pretty sure there's similar dialogue at the end of Steins;Gate, though since it's no longer avaiable on Crunchyroll, I can't check. But given the timeline, I don't think any of the similarities can be deliberate, unless Ikuhara and Urobuchi are both fans of the Steins;Gate VN.

mellomarie

2011-12-23, 13:35

i'm still bawling so this may not be coherent :upset:

what a beautiful ending, although initially i was so sad to know that shoma and kanba are both dead--then i saw them together as kids like giovanni and campenella and it really is a bittersweet ending.

everything came full circle. i also really love the theme of this series--the real tragedy isn't being gone, it's being forgotten (and unloved). and the penguins/scars saw to it that kanba and shoma wouldn't be forgotten.

i wish we got more explanation on the boxes, but that's okay. i also agree with the consensus that double h backstory would've been nice as well

i'll be honest, i was envisioning an ending where himari would die and they'd come to terms with it but this was a beautifully done alternative.

so the sentence about sharing all of their love and punishment was between shoma and kanba all along :upset: i should've put two and two together with the black/white bears to symbolize kanba/shoma. i'm also glad my initial theory of the show being about circumventing fate was true, at least fate in sanetoshi's sense. kanba and shoma technically got their happy endings--for kanba, himari was literally his life and so he saved her and for shoma, the ability to save his family and to love (ringo).

i still don't get sanetoshi--i understand his message, but i'm a bit unsure where he stands at the end of the series. not a lot of progression for him or momoka :heh: though his interactions with momoka are a joy to watch.

all in all, AMAZING SERIES. IKUHARA DELIVERED :cool:

Soconfused

2011-12-23, 14:32

I don't really get it at all.

Did it ever say why mario got a penguin hat? So they were looking for the penguin drum all this time, and it turned out to be....what exactly? Some kind of apple symbolizing....what? And why were they looking for this? Why would Momoka even need the diary if the fate transfer could be used by just uttering a phrase?

I did like Himari and Ringo ending though. Still, I think this anime was a bit too above my head. I enjoyed it though.

wandering-dreamer

2011-12-23, 14:53

Kazu-kun

2011-12-23, 17:02

Anyone else notice this little bit?

http://unequivocalhorizon.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/gge2808b_mawarue2808b_penguindrume2808b_-e2808b_24e2808b_e51b0c58-mkv_snapshot_21-19_2011-12-23_22-06-03.png

Himari's not the only one with something from the brothers (the scar on her forehead). It looks like Ringo has one too, hidden by her uniform most likely.

Thank you!! I don't know why I didn't notice this. I watched the episodes multiple times, looking for something like this even, and I just couldn't find it. Anyway, as a Ringo fan and to a leaser extent a RingoxShouma fan, you made my day!! :)

Kanon

2011-12-23, 17:10

And while it's sad the brothers are forgotten, no one ended up alone. That I really could not have taken.

Sanetoshi did. I doubt you care about him though :p

kitten320

2011-12-23, 17:11

Krusiv

2011-12-23, 17:26

I'm confused... Why did Kanba start to bleed all of a sudden? Where exactly he and Shoume were locked? What the hell is the Penguindrum and why was it inside Shouma? What exactly does apple symbolize?

I swear I made a post about this since someone else already asked but my post is no where to be found. ~_~ Anyway, let me begin by saying that some places in Mawaru Penguindrum aren't real. Instead those places are trying to represent something else, usually an idea. The child broiler, Sanetoshi's red-lined subway, and the two boxes are some of those places.

Earlier in the series Sanetoshi talked about how humans stay cooped up inside their own boxes. Boxes refer to when we decide to hide our true self or when we feel trapped because we are alone in the world. Shoma and Kanba were like that, hence the boxes.

The Penguindrum was the apple, and the apple symbolized fate or your motivation to live depending on how you look at it. All of the main characters were "dying" in the sense of the show (no true loved ones, no significant other, etc). Himari gave Kanba a band aid to soothe the pain he was feeling and in return Kanba made a promise to keep Himari alive at all costs. That gave Kanba his 'penguindrum' -- the motivation to keep that promise.

In the scene where Kanba finds an apple in his box: Kanba remembers the promise to Himari which makes him "alive" again. Shoma doesn't have an apple yet because he doesn't have anyone or anything to live for. Kanba shares his apple/motivation with Shoma, which then frees them both from the 'boxes'.

Sorry for the wall of text, and I'm also sorry if any of it is sloppy or confusing to read. I'm not used to writing this much. :heh:

NaweG

2011-12-23, 18:07

I just realized that the three best anime of this year had extremely similar endings.

Madoka transcends time and space to become the concept of hope, but in the process everyone forgets her except Homura and her brother.

Okabe in Steins;Gate saves Kurisu by wiping their entire relationship from existence, but in the end she retains some faint recollection of their time together.

Sho and Kan erase their existence, allowing HImari to have a full life, but leave behind a memento that triggers some memory.

So why is it I felt good about the other two, and this one left me feeling... meh? Maybe because it felt like in those first two there was a struggle and ultimately while it was bittersweet there was still some promise while this one seemed to be more of "best compromise that can be made given the rules"...

Krusiv

2011-12-23, 18:20

Haak

2011-12-23, 18:23

I'm confused... Why did Kanba start to bleed all of a sudden?

Those weird "bloods" things turned into apples and if we take apples to symbolically represent "purpose" then we can say that Kanba was losing his "purpose", which was to save Himari.

Where exactly he and Shoume were locked?

Satenoshi often talked about boxes and people never breaking out of them. What I'm guessing they represent is a cage that prevents people from reaching a purpose (Satenoshi was evidently quite the nihilistic). Kanba found a "purpose" (the apple) which I think was to do with Himari and decided to share it with Shoma who also took it upon himself to protect Himari.

What the hell is the Penguindrum and why was it inside Shouma?

I think the apple (his "purpose") was the penguindrum, which is why Shoma's was half and he was giving it back to Kanba.

That's about the best I can make of it.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-23, 18:46

I think the apple (his "purpose") was the penguindrum, which is why Shoma's was half and he was giving it back to Kanba.

Yeah, the flashback kinda shows the "penguindrum" was originally Kanba's. His purpose, his decision to live for Himari. Kanba gave half of that purpose to Shouma and now Shouma gives back to him.

Remember back in episode 17 the PotC did tell Kanba "the penguindrum is your..."

And it was true, the penguindrum was kanba's all along. It just happened that half of it was with Shouma.

Haak

2011-12-23, 19:04

To be honest though, I think the only way we can fully understand this ending is if we go back and rewatch the entire series...

No time to waste then.

mark1246

2011-12-23, 19:11

AFTER reading four pages of mix review of the ending that some people WHERE HAPPY AND SOME people where sad (IM sad too) that shouma and Kanba where forgotten, disappear, and went to another world (whatever you guys think). Man what a mess up ending with all the other anime there is that have SAD ending!! yes there are a lot of video game and Anime that has similar ending like Penguin Drum

NOW!

You KNOW PEOPLE EVEN THOUGH IT THE END OF THE ANIME...the novel is still on going- and it was stated by the author that the story for the novel is different for the ending from the anime! So there hope for the guys who want a happy ending that want ShoumaXRingo together and KISS maybe :0. But we need some brave soul to read the novel and tell us what happen because it in japan and i don’t speak japanese :(

BUt if you do thank for doing it :)

Kazu-kun

2011-12-23, 19:17

You KNOW PEOPLE EVEN THOUGH IT THE END OF THE ANIME...the novel is still on going- and it was stated by the author that the story for the novel is different for the ending from the anime!

Unfortunately that was a misunderstanding. The ending is the same. The novel's just going to expand it a bit with extended scenes and such.

ars89

2011-12-23, 21:03

fabulous max ending

Setsuryuu

2011-12-23, 22:37

To me this was a happy ending. Just a different form of happiness, right? I wonder if Himari was still childhood friend's with Double H after the fate transfered... She kinda left this a bit cloudy when she said she just "collected" everything from them. And did Kanba and Shouma became actual twin brothers this time? I don't remember Kanba saying he loved you Masako (evil Kanba xD) I guess that was really just a dream! xD

And well, look Sanetoshi lurking in the shadows. Indeed the perfect ending, no second season should spout... But he still wants to keep his curse on somehow... Oh my novel, exorcise this ghost. xP

I just watched it so I'm a bit stunned still... But hey it was quite a ride in there... Good to see there's still anime in this level nowdays.

Kirarakim

2011-12-23, 22:56

Yeah, the flashback kinda shows the "penguindrum" was originally Kanba's. His purpose, his decision to live for Himari. Kanba gave half of that purpose to Shouma and now Shouma gives back to him.

Remember back in episode 17 the PotC did tell Kanba "the penguindrum is your..."

And it was true, the penguindrum was kanba's all along. It just happened that half of it was with Shouma.

Don't forget it was Shouma who shared the apple with Himari 1st and then Himari with Kanba & Kanba with Shouma.

They weren't real siblings but they did have a deep connection.

Also while I do see the similarity with Madoka. I actually prefer this ending. Maybe it's the execution, maybe because it comes back to Night on the Galactic Railroad or maybe because everyone still has someone in the end (yes except Sanetoshi)

Qpax

2011-12-23, 23:03

Maybe I'm a little disappointed that Double H didn't have a larger presence in Himari's life at the end (in fact it appears in this reality she's just a fan.)
But the only thing that saved Himari's life and others at the end of series was their song, thanks to their song Ringo was able to cast spell which was "The Fruit of Fate". Other than that I'm really happy for Yuri and Tabuki. They deserved that happy finale from the beggining. Shouma finally confesed her love towards Ringo and both girls are now friends, living happily after thanks to their beloved ones. But there is still this sad feeling deep inside me towards Kanba. Even though his actions were all for the sake of saving Himari and did evil in the process but he also deserved happy finale but anyways he did since he saved Himari with all costs anyways. I'm also happy for Masako siblings at the same time. Masako still remembers Kanba even if she thinks it's in her dream. I'm going to miss Esmeralda's "Kyuhuh" voice. Horie Yui did really good job by voicing this cute penguin and yeah she was my favorite one amongst other penguins. And lastly I shed manly tears when Himari found note from her brothers.

PS: I interpreted this episode as like what they needed from the beggining is sharing love. Love is also at the same time fate. If you want to change fate you need to share. Sharing also means sacrificing something precious to you. So what I'm trying to say is (not metaphorically) apple that Kanba shared with Shouma is Penguindrum which also indicates bro love. When they shared fruit of fate they also found purpose in life. In order to save their hope and purpose, at the end they needed to sacrifice their soul. So in this sense Shouma sacrificed himself in order to save Ringo who was about the die as well as Himari was saved by Kanba by sarificing himself, enabling them both to save their precious ones in life. Ahh the more I speak then the more it gets complicated anyways... Later I need to rewatch this series in order to get better and full understading or better wait for Bluray series to see more naked Himari and Ringo :3

Anyways it was pretty good series at least it was top-notch one amongst other series that released this year so I'm going to add this series to the top of my favorite series.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-23, 23:35

Don't forget it was Shouma who shared the apple with Himari 1st and then Himari with Kanba & Kanba with Shouma.

But it's no the same.

I mean, even after getting to know both Himari and Kanba, Shouma's life was still aimless. He somehow gave purpose to Himari's life, and she somehow did the same for Kanba...

But Shouma had nothing even then. This is made explicit when he's inside the box and think this:

"I'll send a message to someone precious to me too. I wonder who... and what will my message be"

So even then he still didn't know whom he wanted to protect and what to live for. But Kanba was different!!!

That's why there's apple in Kanba's "box" but there's none in Shouma's. Kanba wants to protect someone, to live for the sake of someone. That someone is Himari. Shouma, on the other hand, doesn't know what to live for. He doesn't have a purpose, doesn't have an "apple".

When Kanba share his "apple" with Shouma, he's sharing his purpose with him. The purpose of "living for Himari's sake". He's sharing it with Shouma.

Kanba had to share this with Shouma because someone with no purpose can not "live". Or rather, their life would never amount to anything.

Anyway. in episode 24, all Shouma does, is to give back Kanba's porpuse to him (well, "half" of it). It was never Shouma's after all. The porpuse of "living for Himari's sake". It was Kanba's to begin with, since it was his personal decision to live that way.

Right after he gives Kanba what's rightfully his, he rushes to save Ringo, because that's his new (and real) purpose. This time is not a purpose that someone else is sharing with him (like the the purpose of "living for Himari's sake", which was Kanba's, originally), but truly his own. Ringo, in a way, is Shouma's true apple.

Well, that's just my interpretation...

Kirarakim

2011-12-23, 23:48

But it's no the same.

I mean, even after getting to know both Himari and Kanba, Shouma's life was still aimless. He somehow gave purpose to Himari's life, and she somehow did the same for Kanba...

But Shouma has nothing even then. This is made explicit when he's inside the box and think this:

"I'll send a message to someone precious to me too. I wonder who... and what will my message be"

So even then he still didn't know whom he wanted to protect and what to live for. But Kanba was different!!!

That's why there's apple in Kanba's "box" but there's none in Shouma's. Kanba wants to protect someone, to live for the sake of someone. That someone is Himari. Shouma, on the other hand, doesn't know what to live for. He doesn't have a purpose, doesn't have an "apple".

When Kanba share his "apple" with Shouma, he's sharing his purpose with him. The purpose of "living for Himari's sake". He's sharing it with Shouma.

Kanba had to share this with Shouma because someone with no purpose can not "live". Or rather, their life would never amount to anything.

Anyway. in episode 24, all Shouma does, is to give back Kanba's porpuse to him (well, "half" of it). It was never Shouma's after all. The porpuse of "living for Himari's sake". It was Kanba's to begin with, since it was his personal decision to live that way.

Right after he gives Kanba what's rightfully his, he rushes to save Ringo, because that's his new purpose. This time is not a purpose that someone else is sharing with him (like the the purpose of "living for Himari's sake", which Kanba shared with him), but truly his own. Ringo, in a way, is Shouma's true apple.

Well, that's just my interpretation...

Kazu I don't disagree with you I think Ringo was Shouma's true apple/purpose.

But you can't discount the fact that Shouma was the first one to give the apple to Himari (who was also lost). It was because she had this apple & found happiness that she was able to pass it onto Kanba in the first place.

Kanba then took his apple and gave half of it to Shouma thus sharing his purpose with him. Although it was only half an apple that half did save Shouma. He invested himself in his "family" until he found his purpose but he never felt whole or full. Hence why Penguin 2 was always eating because he was looking for his full apple (which was Ringo).

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 00:36

ut you can't discount the fact that Shouma was the first one to give the apple to Himari (who was also lost). It was because she had this apple & found happiness that she was able to pass it onto Kanba in the first place.

I'm not discounting anything. It's just I wasn't clear enough I suppose. I mean, if you think of the apple simply as "love" then you could say Shouma gives an apple to Himari, Himari gives it to Kanba, Kanba gives half of it back to Shouma, etc.

But that's no it (IMO). The point here is what someone choose to do with the love that was given to them, and that choice is a personal decision.

Kanba chose to live for Himari's sake. It was his decision and his alone. Of course, he had that choice because love was given to him (by Himari), but what to do with that love was still his personal decision.

Shouma was loved, by both Kanba and Himari. Yet, he didn't know what to do with that love that was given to him. He didn't have an "apple" because the "apple" is not just love but purpose.

That's why Kanba had to share his purpose with him. In other words, what I mean is that despite loving Himari very much, living for her sake wasn't something Shouma decided to do on his own. He was just following his "brother", "sharing" on what Kanba decided to do.

So at the end he gives it back to Kanba so that Kanba could sacrifice all of his life and self for Himari's sake. It was Kanba's right to so because it was what he decided to do on his own. That was a decision that Shouma never made.

I think that it's because the "apple", the "penguindrum", is a choice, the choice on what to do with the love that was given to you, that it breaks "fate". If you're loved, you may decide to give love to someone else too, and by doing so you may change that person's "fate". Or you may decide not to give it back at all, in which case, even though you have love, you still won't change anyone's fate and won't ever amount to anything.

At least that's the way I understood it. I know there must be many other ways to see all this though.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 00:58

At least that's the way I understood it. I know there must be many other ways to see all this though.

I don't disagree with what you are saying but what I am trying to say is there was a bond between Shouma/Himari/Kanba that started with Shouma giving an apple to Himari. Himari had no will to live until Shouma chose her and gave her an apple. It was this Himari that put the bandaid on Kanba. If not for Shouma's act then Himari would never have showed kindness to Kanba inspiring him to live for her.

So I am saying everything between the siblings felt full circle to me.

And while yes half of Kanba's apple was not enough for Shouma it did keep him living even if not in a full sense. Shouma lived for his family while he was looking for his apple.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 01:09

I don't disagree with what you are saying but what I am trying to say is there was a bond between Shouma/Himari/Kanba that started with Shouma giving an apple to Himari.

Well, you could say that Shouma started everything because he decided to rescue Himari. But if you think about it, he could only do this because he was already loved (ie: by his parents). So it's not only a connection between these three, and Shouma is certainly not the beginning point.

Ultimately, only someone who was loved can give love to others (the series hammers this point quite strongly), therefore we're talking about a connection of love with no beginning and no end IMO.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 01:19

Well, you could say that Shouma started everything because he decided to rescue Himari. But if you think about it, he could only do this because he was already loved (ie: by his parents). So it's not only a connection between these three, and Shouma is certainly not the beginning point.

But I still think it is since the circle is

Shouma---Himari---Kanba---1/2 to Shouma.

And I understand that Shouma needed to find his own purpose/apple hence why he was never full but I still can't discount what Kanba did for Shouma that this did save him until he did find that apple.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 01:28

But I still think it is since the circle is

Shouma---Himari---Kanba---1/2 to Shouma.

Ok, I don't see it that way but that's ok. This is Ikuhara after all.

On another note, I love this thing.

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4462/1324671184432.jpg

EDIT: I just read Draggle's blog post on the final and he has a beautiful Christian (and gnostic) take on it. It's definitely worth a read:

http://blog.draggle.org/mawaru-penguindrum-24-sharing-the-fruit-of-fate/

EDIT 2:

This is from the Penguindrum event (or a Kossori, I'm not sure):

Marie (Ringo VA)'s favorite scene is the one when Ringo is washing the dishes with Shouma "like a married couple" (sic). Marie and Ryouhei rehearsed that scene countless times and they kept changing the overall mood everytime they did it, but both of them were really happy with the final result.

Grim_Reaper

2011-12-24, 03:53

I love how many interpretations are there already :D

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 04:12

And I love how many RingoxShoma fanart are getting posted on Pixiv. My god, the Japanese are totally crazy about these two right now :D.

SukyAnime2

2011-12-24, 04:36

So the three points i think i have gotten from this episode is that;
-The diary does not do anything. The 'magic words' of Okinome is basically 'self-giving' eg. by using her own body to shield everyone from the explosion (from the teddy bear bombs).
-The penguindrum is probably the vital organs of Shoma + Kanba to give Himari (and Mario?) the life to survive again.
-Kanba and Shoma in little boy form walking with penguins concludes they are now non-visible entities or dead.

One thing this last ep could have done without is the whole 'it was all a dream, nobody remembers' ending. In fact, that probably butchered every (if any) relevant plot in this series. Because seriously, what on earth could have caused super amnesia to befall the Sister, the Stalker, Himari, and everyone/everything in existence?

If this is the original creator's idea of 'true magic', then it was very unthoughtful & ridiculous (even for a ridiculous show). Other than that, it was alright.

Haak

2011-12-24, 05:51

This diagram I came across might help:
http://i.imgur.com/GTKo1.jpg

Also I just realised that Satenoshi totally screwed up big time. Had he not given those scarves to Double H, then Double H never would've visited Himari's house and Ringo wouldn't have found the spell. :D

Chase

2011-12-24, 06:21

Happy but sad ending. It was kind of hard to watch knowing they went their seperate ways. I'll miss this anime, one of the best of the year.

Sackett

2011-12-24, 11:10

So why is it I felt good about the other two, and this one left me feeling... meh? Maybe because it felt like in those first two there was a struggle and ultimately while it was bittersweet there was still some promise while this one seemed to be more of "best compromise that can be made given the rules"...

Indeed.

Since people seemed to have difficulty understanding my original complaint I shall try to expand on it.

First, here is Eschaton's analysis of the symbolism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13101108240A39480100&page=29#706) from a post over in the show thread at TV Tropes:

As for the backstory: Originally, all three siblings were destined to "die" from malnourishment, not necessarily of food or water, but love, as per Yuri and Tabuki's comment about unloved children, and the entire idea of the Child Broiler. Notably, "Kiga, " which appears on the apples, means "hunger/starvation." For Shouma, there is an aspect of parental neglect and abandonment on the part of their actions and the consequences (this situation would then apply to #2 always consuming food).

But then Kanba got an apple, "The Fruit of Fate." He shares it with Shoma, saving them both. Shoma shares his half with Himari, saving them both, but the 'curse' or 'punishment' for sharing is that Himari must die eventually. In the end, Shoma returns his half to Kanba, who gives it to Himari who already has his half, saving her (a full apple) but he dies since he has no fruit anymore. In the meanwhile, Ringo uses a spell to transfer fates. However, the cost of the spell is being burned to death, which Shoma steps in and takes instead, since he was about to die anyways from the lack of a fruit. So Shoma and Kanba die as a result, and Ringo and Himari live.

So basically, the Penguindrum is life/love, and throughout the whole show the brothers have been trying to give those things to Himari, and in the end do so and come full circle. Thus the title comes into play, as the Penguindrum "rotates/spins" through all three.

A purposeless Shouma saved Himari and gave her a family, thus shared his apple with her; Himari was henceforth given a purpose, but keep in mind that Shouma received nothing in turn. Then Kanba gets accepted into the family and Himari gives him the bandaid to keep the pain away, thus Kanba decides he'll do anything for her; here Himari was unknowingly sharing her apple with Kanba, because she gave him a purpose (and the bandaid appears on #1). Kanba was able to actually receive the apple because he wasn't completely empty and devoid of purpose like Shouma himself was, as Kanba already had precious people he wanted to protect (Masako and Mario, his words on the cage are a reference to them) as such his "box" was able to connect to the outside world, if only for a moment and the apple reaches him. Interestingly, this changes with Himari, "going genes/instinct" not in incest, but by choosing her over his biological family, and Masako wants to reverse that (thus Esmeralda always taking Threetie's wigs).

When he shares the apple with Shouma, Shouma's purpose becomes precisely that: Himari no Tame Ni + Kanba = Takakura Family's wellbeing. That's the reason why Shouma is so single-minded about keeping the family united; because thats' what gave meaning to his existence, as such was what he inherited that day Kanba shared his apple with him. He, however, still remains kind of empty and from that comes his apparent uncapability to love, but Ringo comes around to change all that. When Ringo (whose name speaks for itself) comes around, she effectively becomes an apple for Shouma, a "whole" one all to himself, and she fulfills the part of Shouma that had remained closed-off to the world. He isn't able to accept it however until he lets his barriers down. The key difference here is that Ringo's metaphorical apple didn't give him a purpose, as he already had one, but gave him the will to break the chains of fate and be assertive, which is what he lacked.

Seito Sakakibara is a pretty blatant influence on Sanetoshi as a character too. He uses a lot of the same terms and phrasing as Sakakibara did in his creepy letter to the TV station. Sakakibara thought of himself as an "invisible entity" created by society (he calls out public education specifically) and that he had conversed with another such entity, the only other one like him. He claimed that he took credit for the murders he committed, that he otherwise could have gotten away with, to make the world recognize his existence.

The Sanetoshi - Aum Shinrikyo/Shoko Asahara connection seems pretty clear. The parallel to the actual subway attacks done by a fanatical group bent on "saving" society/others aside, there are other things. Seizon Senryakyu/Survival Strategy could be a play on Aum Shinrikyo's own "Perfect Salvation Initiation" (PSI) method, or their PR slogan which was "Aum Salvation Plan, " which promised to "help people with no direction or sense of future to redeem themselves" (aka, "those who will never amount to anything.")

Also- Asahara, the cult leader, was described by his followers as perfect, spotless. Because the souls of ordinary ppl are "covered with dirt. they are polluted. but Sonshi's (Nakahara) soul is different from ours. it is open, uncovered, without any dirt." A key point of Sanetoshi's character design is his immaculate white. He also presents himself as a doctor, same as Asahara who came from a medical background.

Sanetoshi is an embodiment of spite and hate, while Momoka is an embodiment of forgiveness and love. At the very core the opposition between Sanetoshi and Momoka is, simplistically, selfishness vs selflessness. Sanetoshi doesn't give a shit about harming others to satisfy his desires and uses the same ideology to win over followers (i.e. Kanba) to the same methods. He doesn't kill to end others' suffering, since that would require giving a shit about other people––Sanetoshi wants to kill and end the world because he doesn't like it, because he's invisible, and so on.

Obviously, combined with his imagery and behavior, he is effectively Satan, even moreso than Akio from Utena, and compounded by the role of the Black Bunnies as a Serpent role in Shouma's Mary's Little Lambs story. Furthermore, the Apple/Penguindrum is shared love and purpose in life, but also shared punishment, and in the same way Adam and Eve shared the punishment of mortality (living is punishment according to Kanba), but was also given the solution out of punishment, by love

The box metaphor is all about selfishness and self-preservation (survival strategies). Ultimately, the fate Sanetoshi is talking about––the "self-serving rules" that govern the world––is the cynical idea that people are selfish and––not even will not, CANNOT help each other because it's contrary to their best interests as dictated by "fate" (genes/instinct/whatever). Kanba sharing the fruit with Shoma when they were trapped in the cages effectively broke fate because he violated that principal. Thus, the boxes are fate, or what could be seen as the human condition itself.

Fate is not supposed to be taken as a fact or a concrete force at work determined by divine will, but something else. Fate isn't used in the classical sense here, necessarily— fate (especially in relation to unwanted children) is meant to be the future that people resign themselves to as a result of the selfishness of others (meaning those stuck in their boxes). The future that dictates they will never amount to anything. Altruism is what changes 'fate', or the bleak and awful future so many children face as a result of the lack of love. That is, genuinely reaching out for an unwanted person and making them a part of your life, make them feel needed, and giving them the power to do the same for others. To step outside your box and truly reach out to another person who needs love will change their life completely.

TL;DREpisode 1: "This is all about love."

I don't want to get bogged down in analyzing all of the symbolism. It's enough to say that it comes down to: "This is all about love"

Additionally, it is clear that Shouma and Kanba where from the beginning built up as opposing opposites. Once we realize "This is all about love" this contrast becomes clear.

Kanba represents "Love As Sacrifice." Kanba is constantly sacrificing himself for those he loves. As he becomes darker, and falls under the power of the Tempter (Sanetoshi), Kanba begins to sacrifice others for his love. Thus we see both the light and the dark sides of Kanba's conception of love as sacrifice.

Shouma represents "Love As Connections" (I can't really find the one word to describe this, but connection is as close as I can get). Shouma is constantly trying to build connections with those he loves. Entangling themselves together emotionally, creating a unity of souls. Shouma creates relationships of affection, affinity, and affiliation.

At the start, Shouma is the one who keeps Kanba rooted, Kanba seems to sense this as he originally tries to protect Shouma from the effects as Kanba falls into darkness. Shouma begins to become the light alter ego of the dark Kanba.

We see the strength in Shouma's approach in the first half of the show, as Shouma is struggling to save Ringo from her madness. Ringo is lost, but Shouma goes and finds her, and through the strength of his affection and affiliation he is able to infiltrate Ringo's defenses and call her back to light. Once Ringo realizes "I love Shouma" she then abandons her darkness and becomes a figure of light. She has been rescued by the connection Shouma built with her.

Meanwhile, in the first half of the show we see Kanba sacrificing himself for Himari, confident that he will succeed. The height of this is when he successfully rescues the hat (Himari's life source) from the garbage truck.

Then at the mid-point we enter the frustration stage. Ringo has been rescued, but the diary is lost. Shouma (representing Kanba's light half) is injured and threatened, Kanba begins to lose confidence that he can save Himari. Then the Tempter appears to Kanba suggesting he can save Himari by sacrificing others.

We also begin to see the dark side of Shouma: passive despair. Shouma is losing the connection to his family, both Himari and Kanba. He rejects Ringo. Instead of staying involved with Kanba he decides to just blindly trust in him. He becomes centered on himself- not selfish, just incapable of reaching out to anyone else anymore. Shouma cannot resist fate, he can only passively accept it. This reaches it's peak when he tries to use his connection with Kanba to call him back from darkness into light. Not only does this fail, but Kanba cuts off their relationship, shattering Shouma's family. We don't see as clear a scene of this as we do for Kanba, but the Tempter is also interacting with Shouma throughout this period; encouraging Shouma to stay passive and hopeless.

Then we enter the final stage when Himari is now on her (final) death bed. Kanba is called back to the light by his younger sister, but he rejects her, leading to Masako's destruction. Meanwhile Ringo reaches out to Shouma again, and he accepts her- Shouma begins to heal and is re-empowered to represent the forces of life to Kanba's forces of death.

Notice as we are going along that the other major contrast in the show (Sanetoshi and Momoka) is between these dark and light versions. Momoka represents self-sacrifice and connections with others. Sanetoshi represents sacrifice of others and a self-centered despair that he can never truly connect with others.

At this point it is all great stuff, a very well done symbolic story. It then falls apart in the final episode.

In the final episode Shouma uses his connection with Kanba (the Penguindrum), returning it to Kanba (a sacrifice of himself and restoring their connection), thus empowering Kanba to finally sacrifice himself to save Himari. Meanwhile Ringo tries to sacrifice herself to save Himari (and by extension Shouma and Kanba), but Shouma stops her, rejecting her offer and instead sacrificing himself to save Ringo (echoing his earlier sacrifice when he saved her from the car).

We are then left with Kanba and Shouma together in the "other world" and Ringo and Himari together in the "real world," with no memory of Shouma or Kanba.

There are three major problems with this ending:

1: The first problem is that Kanba is separated from Himari (his other half) and Shouma is separated from Ringo (his other half). Nor is there any hint that they will ever be reunited.

Now perhaps you might say that this is all about family love not romantic love and thus Shouma and Kanba being reunited is a good ending. This could be so: if the show had been setting that up! But that is not the direction the show was going. Himari was revealed to be unrelated to Shouma and Kanba. The show was filled with people trying to find their correct other halves, and all the mistakes and misjudgements along the way:

Ringo thought Tabuki was her other half, but instead she discovers it was Shouma (and once this discovery is made she becomes at peace with herself). Tabuki and Yuri both think Momoka is their other half, until finally they come to realize that they are each others other half (and so they become happy). Sanetoshi thinks that Momoka is his other half, but because she won't accept his self-centered destruction of the world Sanetoshi rejects her and tries to destroy Momoka (leading to his tragic end, alone and without love). Himari at first thinks Shouma is her other half, until she realizes that Shouma is Ringo's other half. Kanba knows from the beginning that Himari is his other half, but Shouma's creation of them as a family is blocking him.

The whole show has been building up to create the correct pairings that will lead each individual to happiness in a untied whole of man and woman. Kanba, Shouma, Himari, and Ringo in particular are at the correct age for this as they are on the verge of becoming adults, and forming a pair bonding with their other half is a major element of maturity.

Then at the end Kanba and Himari acknowledge each other as other halves, and Shouma finally acknowledges Ringo as his other half (the emotional climax of the ending as several people have noticed). But then they are ripped apart. Not only are they separated with no promise of being reunited, but Himari and Ringo both forget their other halves. This is particularly cruel to Ringo, as it essentially deprived her of half her character development with just a wave of a magic wand.

All four of the main characters are regressed to childhood. Shouma and Kanba explicitly.

WTH?!

2: Instead of the natural moral that love is both sacrifice and connections, requiring a balance of the two, we end up with an ending that suggests Kanba was right, love is sacrifice. This is driven home by the forgetting of Shouma and Kanba by their other halves Himari and Ringo. Not only are the connections severed in the end, but they are forgotten, erased as if they never were!

3: A major sub-plot was Kanba's inability to accept Himari's death. All men die, and part of maturity is acceptance of this. Not in despair as Shouma did, but in a healthy way. Kanba never accepts Himari's death, to the point that he chooses destroying the world as preferable to Himari dying. Kanba never rejects this viewpoint. Isn't that strange?

The natural ending would have been for Shouma to return the penguindrum to Kanba, for Kanba to try and sacrifice it to Himari so that she can live. Himari rejects this offer and embraces Kanba with the penguindrum between them creating a connection binding them together. Kanba then comes to realize that his purpose was not to sacrifice his life so that Himari can live on alone, but to sacrifice himself (so that he no longer is a figure alone running off in his own direction, but is instead bound to another soul) so that he and Himari can be united in the afterlife.

Kanba and Himari then enter the train of destiny together, with Shouma following them. Ringo tries to sacrifice herself to return them to life, but Shouma embraces her telling her he loves her and that this is their punishment that he accepts. As he begins to leave Ringo reaches out and grabs his hand and announces that she will share the punishment with him, pulling him back to her in an embrace. Revealing their own penguindrum between them binding them together as Himari and Kanba were bound.

We then see an epilogue with Ringo and Shouma together in life, remembering Himari and Kanba, with the understanding that someday they too will die and join them in the afterlife- while Kanba and Himari watch over them before leaving on their "journey" into this "other world."

That would bring the story to it's complete and final end. All things would be in balance and united wholeness, love would be established as requiring both sacrifice and connections, and death would be revealed as natural and not be feared- it's the separation caused by death that should be feared, not the end of life.

That would have been a good bittersweet ending. Instead the ending we got was a lesser downer ending.

This show was frustrating because it was all built up correctly and then at the end it missed the mark.

susyia

2011-12-24, 11:37

so in the end shoma and kamba are back..... but in children form?? they still have the curse whit them??

mark1246

2011-12-24, 12:31

Unfortunately that was a misunderstanding. The ending is the same. The novel's just going to expand it a bit with extended scenes and such.

Are you serious!!!! WHAT THE HELL MAN, SAME ENDING AUGH THIS IS GONA BOTHER ME FOR EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND NO KISSING ,wow what a freaking way to end!

To be forgotten is the same as being dead, just take those romance movie where the wife forget the husband!!!

Utsuro no Hako

2011-12-24, 12:47

I don't want to get bogged down in analyzing all of the symbolism. It's enough to say that it comes down to: "This is all about love"

Additionally, it is clear that Shouma and Kanba where from the beginning built up as opposing opposites. Once we realize "This is all about love" this contrast becomes clear.

I've gotta go with Kazu-kun. The penguin drum isn't simply love but purpose as well, and the one Sho gave to Himari isn't the one he received from Kanba -- in fact, I think it's a mistake to treat the apple too literally, as though it's an object being passed around. Shouma had no purpose of his own and had to borrow one from Kanba, which is why their penguin drum is symbolized by a split apple. But with Himari, Shouma didn't share his purpose with her -- he gave her one (himself).

I'd also argue that the diary was a sort of penguin drum as well and the reason the PotC was so cagey about it wasn't Kanba and Shouma's penguin drum. Rather the diary was the embodiment of Ringo's original purpose, to reunite her family. Notice that like Kanba's apple, the diary was split in half, but in this case it was because of Yuri's desire to bring back Momoka and Masako's quest to reunite her own family. But while all three goals involve love, there's a certain greediness to them, as though they aren't as purely motivated as Kanba's desire to save Himari. And in all three cases, they were better off abandoning the diary for something else -- Tabuki, Mario, and Shouma.

Catalan

2011-12-24, 14:06

If all that apple giving is supposed to be metaphor, not literal, then it's probably a mistake to try to assign some kind of chronological order to who gave what to whom. The exchange may not even represent any specific action at a single moment in time. Giving someone an apple could be seen as being there for someone when they need you in their lives the most. Just don't ask me how that's supposed to make any sense in terms of Kanba and Shouma disappearing at the end.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 14:09

I've gotta go with Kazu-kun. The penguin drum isn't simply love but purpose as well, and the one Sho gave to Himari isn't the one he received from Kanba -- in fact, I think it's a mistake to treat the apple too literally, as though it's an object being passed around. Shouma had no purpose of his own and had to borrow one from Kanba, which is why their penguin drum is symbolized by a split apple. But with Himari, Shouma didn't share his purpose with her -- he gave her one (himself).

Well, even though I still think the penguindrum is not just "love" but purpose (ie: what you do with love), I can see where Sackett is coming from and I agree with some of his points.

Let's put it clear here. Even though Penguindrum kept referencing Night on the Galactic Railroad, and even name-dropped Miyazawa Kenji himself more than a few times, Kenji's novel and penguindrum are ultimately polar opposites (thematically-wise), and not in a good way.

It's like Guardian Enzo said in his blog: "it appears as if instead of Giovanni and Campanella, we have two Campanellas. Except that one of them lived his life selfishly and took the lives of others, though his fate was the same as the one who lived his life selflessly."

Where Kenji finds the meaning of happiness in selfless sacrifices and acceptance of death (and fate) by reaching out to others and making positive connections with them, Ikuhara, on the other hand, end up siding with Kanba, "vindicating" his obsessive and selfish attend to get what he wants, as misguided and unhealthy as it was.

Ikuhara would argue Kanba had the right to get what he wanted because he had already sacrificed half of his "life" for Sho in the first place, and so Sho should follow suite and help him achieve what he want in the name of "family and community". But since Shouma ended up losing the interpersonal connections that form said community in the first place (his bond with both Ringo and Himari herself) because of this, I think what Ikuhara proposes is beyond misguided.

Ikuhara had said he wanted to put the emphasis on community (ie: family) over romantic love in this series, so I can understand where he's coming from to some extent. It's obvious, though, that he went about it totally the wrong way (as explained in the paragraph above).

I also think that Ikuhara overlooked that fact that one of the aspects that makes romantic love so important is that it marks the beginning of a new community, a new family. I think Ringo and Shouma should have stayed together because they represented such "beginning", and there's no meaning in losing that for the sake of Kanba's selfish obsession.

All that said, I still think the ending was beautiful. Although I can't help thinking that Kenji himself would roll in his tomb if he knew Ikuhara kept name-dropping him constantly during this madly misguided ordeal lol.

Triple_R

2011-12-24, 14:10

Sackett, that was an excellent post with some interesting thoughts, but when it's all said and done, I guess MPD simply wasn't aiming for what you interpreted it to be aiming for.

A while back Kazu-kun linked to an interview with Ikuhara where he wanted to stress the importance of family, and family bonds, in MPD. In other words, he was much more focused on familial love/connections than on romantic love/connections.

MPD's ending makes sense in that regard, as does the anime as a whole.

It's very clear that Ikuhara was trying to say something about families, because there were so many incredibly messed up families in this story. :heh:

Ringo's parents being separated, leading her to long for what she once had in regular family sit-down meals of curry, was by far the mildest of these.

Yuri's father nastily abused her, so much so that it forced Momoka's hand.

Tabuki became unloved by his mother due to his lack of talent.

Natsume's grandfather was horrible to his family, and her father was largely absent (her father also being Kanba's).

Kanba's biological father was absent, and his adoptive one was a terrorist leader.

Himari's parents abandoned her, and her adoptive parents were terrorist leaders.

Shouma's adoptive parents were terrorist leaders.

So as you can see, major family divisions and problems abounded in this anime.

I think that an idea that Ikuhara may have been trying to convey here is that when parents mistreat their children, when they cease to properly love and/or care for their children, sadness and tragedy inevitably occur. I think Ikuhara may be saying that the family is important, and that children feeling loved and wanted is even essential.

Now, while sadness and tragedy inevitably occur, people can still make a positive impact in trying to turn things around. You can love and care for your sister even when your parents let you down. You can start a new family with a beloved partner, and put aside the problems you had with your parents. If you lose a twin brother, that doesn't mean you shouldn't care for and love your younger brother.

In the end, Kanba and Shouma had each other. Their brotherly bond was reconstituted. Their sacrifice was both necessitated by the tragedies arising from family abandonment, but also helped to give Himari a family (and a close friend in Ringo, who is perhaps a sister-like figure to Himari now).

In their final acts, we see both the sad tragedies that can arise from familial abandonment and divisions, but also a hopeful message in how a new family (at least of sorts) can arise out of the ashes, as it did for Himari.

If you view the ending through this lens, I think it makes good sense thematically, and ties in nicely with everything that came before.

Ikuhara himself is not particularly fond of shipping. IIRC, he quipped that he wanted to kill off Tuxedo Kamen to keep him away from Sailor Moon, but Tuxedo Kamen had this habit of continuously coming back. ;) Well, in MPD, he had his chance to kill off the male half of two prominent shippings, and he took it. :heh:

But again, this anime was never really about romantic love, but rather about familial love, and the importance of family in general.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 15:06

The way I see it is Shouma saved Kanba along with Himari & Ringo. He gave back half the apple that Kanba had given him before so Kanba could save Himari, but this act also saved Kanba himself.

Shouma also would not let Ringo do the fate transfer and took that on himself. Because of this fate transfer Ringo & Himari are happy even if they lost Sho & Kan.

Sho & Kan's existence was erased. In that sense, Kanba didn't kill anyone.

But I think it had to be Sho & Kan who made the sacrifice because of that apple Kanba split with Shouma. It was only Shouma who could return it to Kanba.

But because of what Sho did (and Kanba did in the past). Both Kan & Sho were rewarded with their loved ones happiness & living on together in death.

ookamigirl

2011-12-24, 15:23

This anime just confused me most of the time.. but it was pretty good too.
Final episode was great.
It was about time some thing were finally more or less explained.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 16:24

But because of what Sho did (and Kanba did in the past). Both Kan & Sho were rewarded with their loved ones happiness & living on together in death.

All you said is true plot-wise, but thematically speaking there are some serious issues with this series.

For example, what Ikuhara proposes here is a very nihilistic worldview, made explicit by the fact that Kanba was ultimately not judged for the things he did. It's like Sanetoshi said: there's no inherent sense of right and wrong in this world. Well that's fine, except that it also means a self-sacrifice has no inherent meaning and value either. What gives the self-sacrifice value then is what the ones who are left behind choose to do with the "life" that was granted to them. Shouma had that choice, and he chose to give that "life" back to Kanba. Yuri and Tabuki had that choice too, and they ultimately chose to give that love/life that Momoka granted them to one another.

This is pretty much in line with Kenji's novel. Giovanni is left behind to make sense of his friend's sacrifice on his own. He had a choice, and he chose to uphold that love that was given to him by reaching out to other people....

But what about Ringo and Himari? They were robbed of that choice, and all the character development that comes with it, because they have no memories. It's kind of cop-out really. The sacrifice loses meaning because of this too.

I don't think this was Ikuhara's intention. But it is a flaw. One of many really.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 16:49

I am certainly not saying the series is without flaws. I think the biggest flaw for me is how the issues of terrorism were played out. I think Ikuhara started with some interesting ideas about terrorism (what causes them to take these actions, children living with parents of terrorist) but never explored them to their fullest potential.

Hence I really was not happy with the Kanba as a terrorist story line. Do I think Kanba got off easily, well yes! But then I guess Himari asked Shouma to save Kanba and he literally did. Come to think of it when Kanba said "Shouma I found true light" I actually feel that was Kanba's way of thanking Shouma. It was in a sense more of Shouma's sacrifice then Kanba (since we know Kanba would have always given his life for Himari). But Shouma was only able to make this sacrifice because of what Kanba gave him in the first place. And I do appreciate the full circle of that.

I don't think the ending is perfect (although it is my favorite ending of the year) but I can't say I am not satisfied.

As for Himari, Ringo and everyone forgetting them well I do understand your POV. But I think this was the only way to truly transfer fates in this case: where Kanba's negative actions are gone (Momoka did not have the same negative actions) but also giving back a a happy life for Himari & Ringo (they are friends, Himari has a family, goes to school, etc).

Penguindrum does take a lot from Night on the Galactic Railroad but it's not the same story. The death of Campanella and Giovanni's acceptance of this is way less convoluted to say the least. Anyways I don't think Penguindrum was about the acceptance of death as it was in Miyazawa's story. If it was Himari would be the one to die in my opinion Kanba & Shouma would have to accept this.

I think Ikuhara was more taking the idea of dying or doing something for someone else out of love & selflessness. Both Kanba and Shouma did these things.

Triple_R

2011-12-24, 16:55

All you said is true plot-wise, but thematically speaking there are some serious issues with this series.

For example, what Ikuhara proposes here is a very nihilistic worldview, made explicit by the fact that Kanba was ultimately not judged for the things he did.

I disagree with you. Kanba did pay a price, a very high price at that. His life, and almost every trace of his existence, has been wiped out. He not only dies, virtually nothing survives him.

That's punishment enough, isn't it?

I have to very strongly disagree with how you're interpreting this ending, Kazu-kun. I'm surprised that you don't seem to see eye-to-eye with me at all on the ending, as much of what I wrote there was informed by you. What problems do you see with what I wrote in my interpretation on the themes of this anime?

It's like Sanetoshi said: there's no inherent sense of right and wrong in this world.

Sanetoshi was proven wrong. There's inherent right and wrong in this world, in part because there's right and wrong in sacrificial love itself. It was that love that ultimately undid him and his plans.

This ending is not as flawed as you or Sackett are arguing it is. It is simply saying something differently than what some expected it to say.

Lastpenguin

2011-12-24, 17:08

Used Can

2011-12-24, 17:10

Ikuhara, on the other hand, end up siding with Kanba, "vindicating" his obsessive and selfish attend to get what he wants, as misguided and unhealthy as it was.
I don't think Ikuhara ever sided with Kanba, but he was trying to make a point. Something we saw throughout the story were people who had received some form of emotional abuse from their parents (or the adults who were raising them), and were constantly nurtured by desires, obsessions and goals of those adults. This is pretty much symbolised be it by the child broiler or by the boxes we saw Kanba and Shōma in.

The key to be able to break away from the child broiler or the boxes, as we saw, was love (whether it served merely as emotional comfort, as a purpose or some other things). Shōma was saved by Kanba, who in turned was saved by Himari who in turned was saved by Shōma (and thereby the name of the series - the penguindrum that goes round). Other than them, you also have Tabuki and Yuri who were saved through Momoka's actions.

But here's the thing, whilst love is nice and all, it also had a not-so-nice impact when it came down to people trying to protect what they held dear, or to recover it. We saw Yuri and Tabuki doing dubious things to try to revive Momoka, and you had Kanba doing the things he did to protect Himari. They were all trying to protect or save what they treasured, even if they had to have the world burn. After going through tough times that made them lose sight of their own value and then finally being able to find that value and interest in life after it was given back to them through the actions of some other person, I think it was understandable (though not necessarily excusable) they took the actions we saw in the show.

To make this simpler, I don't think Ikuhara sided with Kanba, or Tabuki or Yuri, but he simply showed what would people who have been either marginalised, or abused do to protect what is precious to them.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 17:23

I'm just here to ask your opinion people:

are Kanba and Shoma dead//are now non-visible beings?? I mean, a lot of people are saying that they got reborn (someone even has edited the Mawaru wiki writing that they got reincarnated) because they're saying almost the same things the children from the first episode are saying, but the penguins going with them...or is not really clear?

No I am almost 100% positive they are dead. Basically they are taking the same journey as Campanella to True Heaven..except this time Giovanni will be with him for the whole journey.

Of course Shouma & Kanba are only Giovanni and Campanella in the sense they died for love and they have the same hair color, definitely not in personality. But it works. :)

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 17:33

I disagree with you. Kanba did pay a price, a very high price at that. His life, and almost every trace of his existence, has been wiped out. He not only dies, virtually nothing survives him. That's punishment enough, isn't it?

And who say anything about punishment? What bothers me is the lack of self-reflection. He said he finally found true light, which isn't exactly true, since he was gifted by Shouma with light, but let's put that aside. My point is, ok, he found light, and now what? Now that he has light, does he finally realize how fucked up he has been and all the shit he has done? Does he reflect on this? No, no at all. Rather, he proceeds to uses his light to do what he wanted to all along, to save Himari, or rather, to die for Himari. Which isn't even a punishment, since it was what he wanted to do to begin with, though that's besides the point.

I think the sacrifice is cool. I think the lack of self-reflection and guilt from his part isn't cool at all. And it was needed, because love alone can not redeem you unless you realize how fucked up you have been and accept that redemption. This is shown with Yuri and Tabuki, which found redemption only when they finally realized how fucked up they have been, even though they had Momoka's love since a long time ago.

What problems do you see with what I wrote in my interpretation on the themes of this anime?

No problem at all. In fact I think I agree with pretty much everything you said there. I just think the way it was portrayed wasn't all that well thought out, and the themes suffered for it.

Sanetoshi was proven wrong. There's inherent right and wrong in this world, in part because there's right and wrong in sacrificial love itself. It was that love that ultimately undid him and his plans.

But the problem is that this was portrayed through a pretty cheap gimmick. Ikuhara shows us how happy post-sacrifice Ringo and Himari are, but the catch is that they don't have memories. It's a magical solution. After all, would they still be happy if they knew what Shouma and Kanba did? The answer to that is what validates the sacrifice, what gives it meaning. Yet, we don't have that answer. We only have magic tricks. And Ikuhara is trying sell us the idea that self-sacrifice is inherently good using that magic trick.

Lastpenguin

2011-12-24, 17:37

No I am almost 100% positive they are dead. Basically they are taking the same journey as Campanella to True Heaven..except this time Giovanni will be with him for the whole journey.

Of course Shouma & Kanba are only Giovanni and Campanella in the sense they died for love and they have the same hair color, definitely not in personality. But it works. :)

Thank you a lot
I actually, even if it's sadder, prefer the theory that they're dead, it makes their sacrifice more powerful and the relationship between the brothers stronger

thank you for the answer!

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 17:46

But the problem is that this was portrayed through a pretty cheap gimmick. Ikuhara shows us how happy post-sacrifice Ringo and Himari are, but the catch is that they don't have memories. It's a magical solution. After all, would they still be happy if they knew what Shouma and Kanba did? The answer to that is what validate the sacrifice, what gives it meaning. Yet, we don't have that answer. We only have magic tricks.

But keep in mind that on Night on the Galactic Railroad...Campanella did not actually sacrifice himself for Giovanni. In fact we never saw the reaction of the boy who was saved by Campanella.

Giovanni has to accept his friend's death but it is not the same thing as accepting his friend's sacrifice. Giovanni never made that choice either.

But again I don't think Penguindrum is a story about accepting death. It's only exploring the act of choosing love over everything else. And in that case I don't agree with you that the sacrifice is meaningless because Ringo & Himari don't remember. Does that suddenly invalidate the love Kanba and Shouma had for them? Erasing themselves from their loved ones memories is also a sacrifice after all.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 17:57

And in that case I don't agree with you that the sacrifice is meaningless because Ringo & Himari don't remember. Does that suddenly invalidate the love Kanba and Shouma had for them?

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is, the fact that he promotes the idea of sacrificial love being inherently right by using a plot gimmick like lack of memories cheapens his case IMO.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 18:09

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is, the fact that he promotes the idea of sacrificial love being inherently right by using a plot gimmick like lack of memories cheapens his case IMO.

I don't see how Ringo & Himari remembering or not remembering validates or invalidates sacrifice frankly *shrugs*

No Ringo & Himari don't have to live with the loss but I think that is a separate issue from what Kan & Sho did.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 18:13

I don't see how Ringo & Himari remembering or not remembering validates or invalidates sacrifice frankly *shrugs*.

Don't sweat it. We're just talking about different things. I'm not talking about the "sacrifice" itself, but rather about its moral value (or lack thereof).

Triple_R

2011-12-24, 18:17

I think the sacrifice is cool. I think the lack of self-reflection and guilt from his part isn't cool at all.

Ok, now I see what you're saying. Yes, Kanba (and the narrative as a whole) probably would have benefited from a moment of Kanba saying "I was right to want to save Himari, but I've been going about this the wrong way all along. I can not sacrifice others in order to save Himari. I must make my own sacrifice, as I did when I gave half the Penguin Drum to Shouma".

Yes, Kanba could have used an Ebenezer Scrooge-esque moment of deep self-reflection, to use a familiar reference for this time of year.

This is a fair criticism on your part, as it leaves the themes of the story a bit murkier than perhaps they should be.

And it was needed, because love alone can not redeem you unless you realize how fucked up you have been and accept that redemption. This is shown with Yuri and Tabuki, which found redemption only when they finally realized how fucked up they have been, even though they had Momoka's love since a long time ago.

Right. Very good points.

No problem at all. I fact I think in agree with pretty much everything you said there. I just think the way it was portrayed wasn't all that well thought out, and the themes suffered for it.

Yeah, you're right, the execution could have been better. I'm glad we're not as far apart here as I had first thought. :)

But the problem is that this was portrayed through a pretty cheap gimmick. Ikuhara shows us how happy post-sacrifice Ringo and Himari are, but the catch is that they don't have memories. It's a magical solution. After all, would they still be happy if they knew what Shouma and Kanba did? The answer to that is what validates the sacrifice, what gives it meaning. Yet, we don't have that answer. We only have magic tricks. And Ikuhara is trying sell us the idea that self-sacrifice is inherently good using that cheap magic trick.

You're right. It is a magical solution. And I know that was something you were hoping/expecting that the anime would avoid.

I'm not sure how I feel about this aspect yet. I do see where you're coming from on it, though.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 18:23

Yeah, you're right, the execution could have been better. I'm glad we're not as far apart here as I had first thought. :)

I will be totally honest with you. I liked the series, and I thought the ending was beautiful and it almost made me cry. Quite frankly, I'm mostly nitpicking with all these criticisms I've been posting :heh:.

So yeah, even if the execution could have been better, it was still enough to make me care, and that's enough. Maybe even a little more than enough.

Used Can

2011-12-24, 18:59

the fact that he promotes the idea of sacrificial love being inherently right
Again, I don't think Ikuhara did that. Notice that, whilst Sanetoshi may have said that was the right thing to do, other characters like Himari, Shōma, Ringo and Momoka disagreed with him, and their actions showed that much.

As for self-reflection, personally, I don't think it was needed. Kanba didn't seem to have the slightest regret about doing what he did in order to save Himari. He never really tried to do the moral thing, but he simply focused on protecting what he cared about.

In a way, I think that's a great moral teaching through a negative example. People who have been shunned, or who have had to suffer will not necessarily feel the need to care about the world, when they themselves feel the world never cared about them in the first place. That's why always sharing the fruit of fate is an important thing, because that way people won't feel compelled to take actions like Kanba's whenever they want to protect what's important to them.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-24, 19:19

Again, I don't think Ikuhara did that. Notice that, whilst Sanetoshi may have said that was the right thing to do, other characters like Himari, Shōma, Ringo and Momoka disagreed with him, and their actions showed that much.

I think you misunderstood, since I don't disagree with this but it doesn't affect the point I was trying to make.

Either way, I don't have the time to rehash this conversation right now. You know, it's Xmas and all. I may post something else later.

Kirarakim

2011-12-24, 19:42

No one knew what Super Frog did either. Granted that was saving Tokyo not your loved ones. But I expect that was more of what Ikuhara was going for then having H&R not having the burden of remembering.

In this case it's not that H&R do not have the burden, but K&S's sacrifice is selfless in the sense it's about the act itself not the fact that they are remembered for the sacrifice.

Frankly I am not a big fan of sacrifice stories usually. But I think this one was thematically interesting. Not that I am saying its perfect.

But I do agree I wished Kanba would have reflected on his negative actions. I did like the scene of him walking by Sanetoshi when he was telling him he would never amount to anything, but his words no longer have an affect on Kanba.

Sphire

2011-12-24, 21:52

Hmm, surely the fact that Kanba 'saw' light means he saw the error of his methods? But his intentions all along to save Himari were pure? Shouma saves Kanba, who saves Himari. Sure Shouma might have been able to save Himari straight, but they might have lost Kanba.

As for timeline, I kinda agree on the Kanba got his apple from feelings towards Masako and Mario. Then gave half to Shouma, who gave a further half to Himari (although we always only see a full apple, or I guess it's never fully shown how big the apple is aside from when Kanba gives half to Shouma). We saw Shouma playing somewhat happily with his apple when he first met Himari.

Kanba's first purpose was to save Masako and Mario. Then when he thought he'd done that, and Himari entered his life alongside Shouma, his purpose became to save her, because she was inherently weak too (which doesn't really make logical sense, but meh).

He gave the rest of his apple to Himari, but it still wasn't enough. So Shouma had to do the rest. What Ringo did to me was totally different, and that was to save the train, but Shouma took the punishment instead.

I won't claim to understand everything, since I watched the show in a stop start fashion, saving up episodes here and there and watching a few at a time. And reading here about Shouma reaching out to Ringo and what that symbolised was great. But those were my 2 cents.

Master_Yoma

2011-12-24, 22:41

What a great ending hope some one license this

mysh

2011-12-25, 03:18

Oh my, this forum is so great for symbolism-related discussion. I think now I understand the boxes scene better, for I took it quite literally at first - as a flashback. And I also love that Shouma has finally found his true apple (IIRC, "Ringo" means "apple" - I find it beatiful!).
I have some questions left about the scene in the terrorists' headquarters when Sho, Kan and Masako all had their own apples - did it happen before or after the boxes? I took it this way: 1. terrorists's headquarters (Sho and Kan have their apples); 2. Child Broiler (Sho gives his apple to Himari); 3. boxes (Sho has no apple and Kan gives him a half of his).

But still MPD has some loose ends. :confused:
Firstly, all the things about Mario (and partly about Masako). Why did he have a Penguin hat, why was she working with Sanetoshi at first etc. etc.
Then, the deaths of Kenzan and Chiemi - some sort of dark mistery was implied there that we never came to know about.
And of course, all terrorism-related issues. I absolutely agree with those who think that Kan did horrible things but escaped his punishment.

On the whole I really enjoyed this show; for me it is one of the best ever. And yet, it seems that a lot of ideas and characters it touched at first were later put aside and never got their proper development. It could have been done better, imo.

Sphire

2011-12-25, 06:00

I have some questions left about the scene in the terrorists' headquarters when Sho, Kan and Masako all had their own apples - did it happen before or after the boxes? I took it this way: 1. terrorists's headquarters (Sho and Kan have their apples); 2. Child Broiler (Sho gives his apple to Himari); 3. boxes (Sho has no apple and Kan gives him a half of his).

We can really only guess. It's not like it was made clear that Kanba knew exactly who Shouma was at the headquarters(he kinda just flogged him off). I still feel the box came first, because doesn't it say that's when they first meet? They even exchange names.

Then at the headquarters, Shouma is kinda happy, with an apple. Whilst Kanba is with Masako, again making me think Kanba's apple was originally feelings for his family, Masako and Mario. Which he forgot as he succumbed to the box(through his fathers actions), but remembered and thus gained the apple, saving him and making him want to help his family. He sacrificed himself though, and lost Masako and Mario, which makes me think he never regained/regenerated the apple after giving half to Shouma.

Then Shouma saves Himari, and Himari comforts Kanba(whose dad dies somewhere between Sho and Himari's build-up in their relationship). Himari's amnesia though is kinda weird.

Also, was Shouma a true child of the Takakuras? I know the other two aren't, but when Shouma said he got annoyed they brought Kanba home and made him the older brother, it made me think that he was actually the Takakuras true child. Which makes his hate for their actions even stronger.

I kinda agree with the rest of what you said though.

YayPepsi

2011-12-25, 09:17

Vus

2011-12-25, 12:51

All I gotta say: I cried man tears. Overall good ending. Was a fun and exciting series imho.

Triple_R

2011-12-25, 13:06

I will be totally honest with you. I liked the series, and I thought the ending was beautiful and it almost made me cry. Quite frankly, I'm mostly nitpicking with all these criticisms I've been posting :heh:.

So yeah, even if the execution could have been better, it was still enough to make me care, and that's enough. Maybe even a little more than enough.

Yeah, I agree with this myself.

It's amazing how much this anime made me care about Ringo, a character that I had been growing tired of near the end of her Yandere phase.

It's also amazing how very well-developed/well-rounded Kanba ended up being. I'm pretty certain he's going to be a very memorable character for me.

Kanba and Ringo will probably be high on my top Male and Female anime characters of the year lists, respectively.

Used Can

2011-12-25, 17:55

Kazu-kun

2011-12-25, 18:09

I still don't know why Kanba was blaming the world for Himari's condition, nor why Himari ended up that way and why they considered it as punishment.

I think I have an answer to that (well, an interpretation), but it'll take a really long post to explain. I'll post something later.

Setsuryuu

2011-12-25, 23:08

I'd really like some OVA with backstory for Sanetoshi, or simply any backstory. I'd take it even if it came on a character material. I cannot help to think he was very shallow for an antagonist.

Other than him and Momoka, I thought all the characters were well-rounded, and easy to sympathise with. Though, I still don't know why Kanba was blaming the world for Himari's condition, nor why Himari ended up that way and why they considered it as punishment.

It's more like a question of "Fate". You know when bad things happen and people say "oh God why you allowed that". So, in a more japanese way they would think "it happened because it was fate, and that's how the world works, with fate" and then Kanba got mad and thinks "no Fate, no World, I don't accept this and I will fight you and destroy you all".

But that part of destroying the world for Himari makes more sense because Sanetoshi could indeed still magically save her.

Forsaken_Infinity

2011-12-26, 15:36

Dang that was quite the bomb. I honestly didn't expect much coming into this episode - in fact, I had a "meh" expression when I started it because I saw no way out of it that I would like that didn't involve Deus Ex Machina and I am not a fan of such endings in any case. But holy god. Given how things had gone, this is just about the perfect ending for the series, all things considered.

Just the episode deserved all marks it could get. Everything was perfect. Absolutely perfect. I am speechless and I rarely get like this.

As a whole, the series had some pacing issues imo and it felt a bit too misleading and / or vague at points but it was an excellent series nonetheless.

Full marks for the finale and a very deserved 9 out of 10 for the show.

jorez

2011-12-26, 19:53

Fate. I hate that word, and this show has given me more proof to continue to hate it.

Good ending. 7/10

Sphire

2011-12-26, 23:31

I don't think Shouma would have been able to save Himari on his own, for the same reason Kanba wasn't able to save Himari on his own. They both only had half of Kanba'a apple. In order for the apple to be whole again, Shouma had to give back his half, and then Kanba gave the whole thing to Himari to save her.

But didn't Kanba already give his remaining half to Himari before then? In one of those 'survival strategy' moments? It's what I was assuming.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 00:23

But didn't Kanba already give his remaining half to Himari before then? In one of those 'survival strategy' moments? It's what I was assuming.

But she gave it back to him in episode 22.

Although, don't forget all this is just symbolic. Even Himari's "terminal illness" is just a freaking metaphor. The point here was about Shouma finally accepting what Kanba was trying to do and supporting him on it. Remember that until Ringo got on the train Shouma was still trying to stop Kanba (which was useless), but when Ringo gets there she initiated a chain reaction that ended up with Shouma accenting Kanba's "wish" and basically telling him "OK, do what you have to do, I've got your back"...

And that did the metaphorical trick. That's all that was need to begin with.

On another note, I'm still collecting my thoughts for an overall post about this series. I'll probably post it tomorrow. I want to forget about penguins already :heh:

Kirarakim

2011-12-27, 06:14

I don't think Shouma was ever really against what Kanba wanted to do to save Himari (although I guess I could see Shouma not wanting Kanba to sacrifice himself, I don't think Shouma would be against doing the same himself). I do think he was against Kanba working for Sanetoshi. I feel Shouma & Himari were able to get through to Kanba and together they saved Himari.

Although admittedly I am not really sure why they couldn't have done it all earlier, unless Shouma didn't realize that was the Penguindrum before. Of course he was mislead (like we were) thinking it was the diary.

Actually looking back I think the problem was in both Shouma & Kanba. They always needed to work together as a family but Kanba was too busy thinking he had to do everything himself & Shouma would always step aside and let Kanba take on everything and was too afraid to ask Kanba if he was doing anything dangerous.

It took Himari to get through to both of them (but I believe the series made it clear that was usually the case).

Archon_Wing

2011-12-27, 07:52

"You've got to be shitting me"

But it's Ringo! She's amazing! :p

Man, Himari's naked so much... :heh:

Anyhow, the final survival strategy proved to be suitable, as we see this is actually Himari even with the penguin hat. I liked the glass analogy, showing the minor scratches and scars of life slowly picking them apart, even though it was kinda weird.

But miracles don't come easily, and thus Shouma and Kanba had to throw away this existence that was never meant to be to make it happen.

So we only have Ringo and Himari hanging around, but if fate has its way, the new world will have a reuniting soon enough.

But probably not soon enough.

10/10 Finale. Thanks peguindrum for 24 episodes of lols

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 11:46

I don't think Shouma was ever really against what Kanba wanted to do to save Himari (although I guess I could see Shouma not wanting Kanba to sacrifice himself, I don't think Shouma would be against doing the same himself).

All the opposite. Shouma wouldn't have sacrificed for Himari at all, at least not until the last episode, when he changed. This was shown through his penguin, which was always getting in his way every time he tried to be the hero. On the inside, Shouma didn't want any of it.

And it make sense too, since the one who really wished to live (and die) solely for Himari's sake was Kanba. That's why Kanba kept repeating the phrase "Himari no tame ni" (everything is for Himari's sake).

Shouma would tell himself the same: "Himari no tame ni". But he never truly felt it. And in episode 8 Ringo actually called him on this, and she was right.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Shouma never cared about Himari. But for the most part he was just following on his brother. Shouma gives a few examples of this in the last episode: it was Kanba who had the idea of painting the house, and it was also Kanba who made a point of doing everything they could to make sure Himari would always smile. And Shouma, who didn't have any strong desire of his own, ended up following his brother on his wish to make Himari happy.

IMO Shouma is the one who changed the most in the last episode. When he first appears on the train he just wants to stop Kanba. But then Ringo gets there, and her resolution to save Himari at the cost of her life really shake Shouma's ground. Here was this girl who wasn't even family, and yet her desire to save his sister was stronger than his own.

This realization gives Shouma the courage to face his past, and only then he begins to understand the depth of Kanba's desire to save Himari. So he chooses to trust Kanba. He bets on Kanba's wish of protecting Himari in the same way that Ringo bets on the Double-H line.

By fully trusting him for the first time (the very very first time), Shouma makes Kanba see the part of himself that he had forgotten, the part of him that was pure light. That's what gives Kanba the means to save Himari, and also what redeems him.

This is why I said that all that was needed to save the day was for Shouma to really accept Kanba's "wish" and basically tell him "OK, do what you have to do, I've got your back". Basically, Shouma just needed to believe in his bro, and that changed everything.

Kirarakim

2011-12-27, 12:58

Triple_R

2011-12-27, 13:20

I don't think Shouma was ever really against what Kanba wanted to do to save Himari (although I guess I could see Shouma not wanting Kanba to sacrifice himself, I don't think Shouma would be against doing the same himself).

Shouma was definitely against Kanba doing anything morally questionable to try to save Himari. In the first few episodes, you had two or three of these short little debates between Shouma and Kanba revolving around precisely this disagreement. Remember when Kanba used Penguins No. 1 and 2 to find, follow, and spy on Ringo, way back during the 2nd/3rd Episode or so? Shouma was against that, while Kanba was for it since he saw it as a necessary step in saving Himari (based on what the PotC had told them).

I definitely think that Shouma cared about Himari, but he wasn't willing to get his hands dirty anywhere near as much as Kanba was willing to. Would Shouma have traded his own life to save Himari's, though? I don't know. By Episode 24, the answer is a "yes", but I don't know if it was always true.

There's no question, however, that Shouma was decidedly not comfortable with many of the methods that Kanba engaged in to try to save Himari.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 13:27

Well even if this is all true and Shouma didn't want to sacrifice himself for Himari (and I am not sure I entirely agree but I don't entirely disagree either). I do think Shouma's Penguin was leading him to Ringo but not necessarily leading him away from Himari (who is still his sister) Just trying to show Shouma there was someone there specifically for him.

The penguin wasn't trying to do anything. The penguin was just a reflection of his heart. And what the penguin revealed about Shouma was that despite his best intentions (and Shouma certainly was a guy of good intention) his heart just wasn't into it. Into anything really. He was apathetic as fuck in general.

At the end he changed, of course, but whether he would have sacrificed himself for Himari is irrelevant, because only Kanba's light could save Himari. Shouma had light of his own but that light wouldn't have saved Himari because it was meant for someone else.

Shouma at the end understood this better than anyone, and that's why he chose to give back Kanba's "apple", to trust Kanba and believe that he would definitely save Himari.

YayPepsi

2011-12-27, 14:02

But for the most part he was just following on his brother. Shouma gives a few examples of this in the last episode: it was Kanba who had the idea of painting the house, and it was also Kanba who made a point of doing everything they could to make sure Himari would always smile.

I really liked that reveal. I always liked that little scene of them painting the house, but I like it even more now that I know that it was Kanba's idea. He always lived for Himari - he was so selfless when he was young, and he just wanted to see her smiling face. In fact, as a kid, he was selfless with pretty much everyone - Masako and Mario, giving Shouma half his apple, running out in the storm with Kenzan. It's tragic that such a kind young boy got so corrupted later in his life.

Anyhow, I pretty much agree with Kazu-kun. It was Kanba's goal much more than Shouma's goal to save Himari. After all, Himari was Kanba's world and his light. I don't think she had the same amount of importance for Shouma, though he loved her a lot as his sister and he wanted her to live.

Utsuro no Hako

2011-12-27, 14:21

"Apathetic" isn't the right word for Shouma. In the first episode, he's the one who flies into a rage at Himari's death, not Kanba. But although he thinks it's unfair, he's also resigned to it because he believes they're being punished for Kenzan and Chiemi's sins. The Princess of the Crystal is just prolonging the punishment by resurrecting Himari and Kanba's actions are only adding further crimes. He's a child who's been beaten so often that he just wants to retreat into a corner and be left alone.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 14:43

"Apathetic" isn't the right word for Shouma.

I think it works, specially for what his penguin showed about him. For example, remember when Ringo fell into the pond back in episode 4? That was a pretty funny penguin joke, but moments like this showed there was a part of Shou that didn't care as much as he seemed to.

You're right that most of his inner apathy comes from being beaten by life so much, but it doesn't change the fact that there was always a part his heart that just wasn't into it.

In fact, the first time his penguin actually worked in sync with him is when he saved Ringo from the car. In that moment, his penguin threw itself in front of the car along with him, to save Ringo. Leaving aside the last episode, that was the only time when Shou's heart and actions where truly in sync.

Kirarakim

2011-12-27, 17:07

The penguin wasn't trying to do anything. The penguin was just a reflection of his heart. And what the penguin revealed about Shouma was that despite his best intentions (and Shouma certainly was a guy of good intention) his heart just wasn't into it. Into anything .

So the Penguin is a reflection of himself/his heart and it was his heart leading him to Ringo. That doesn't contradict what I said. :)

Anyways I see the whole connection between Shouma/Ringo & Kanba/Himari & I am not denying it but I guess where I disagree with you & Yay Pepsi is that everything is about these two pairings in the story (although I understand you guys aren't specifically saying this either)

Whereas Ringo might have been the PD for Shouma & Himari for Kanba. I think the importance is the connections formed between all the characters.

I do not think because Himari was Kanba's Penguindrum, that Ikuhara is denying that Shouma was Himari's. And I also think that what Kanba did for Shouma was important to Shouma too. I know you disagree but I think what they all shared really did make them siblings even if just in a metaphorical sense. Hence why I think it is important in the end that while Ringo's scar is from Shouma & Himari's from Kanba, the note to Himari is from both her brothers.

And while it's true it was Kanba's idea to paint the house, he convinces Shouma when he mentions it's for Himari. And when they are talking about their memories it's the memories of all 3.

I can take it further and say Ringo's love for Himari is also imprtant, as it was her words that initiated the fate transfer to save Himari.

Masako also has a connection with Kanba and her younger brother (and Masako was able to reach out to Himari to help save Kanba)

I think all these relationships are important in the end. Hence while I am sad Shouma & Ringo are separated, I know Shouma & Kanba have each other & Himari & Ringo have each other and I do believe these connections are important to the characters too.

Because I believe what Ikuhara was ultimately saying its our connections with other people that get us out that box, not just one "fated" person.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 17:41

Anyways I see the whole connection between Shouma/Ringo & Kanba/Himari & I am not denying it but I guess where I disagree with you & Yay Pepsi is that everything is about these two pairings in the story. Whereas Ringo might have been the PD for Shouma & Himari for Kanba. I think the importance is the connections formed between all the characters.

I don't know about Yay Pepsi, but I don't disagree with this. I just see it from a different angle (read below)

I do not think because Himari was Kanba's Penguindrum, that Ikuhara is denying that Shouma was Himari's.

Of course not, but it wasn't the "penguindrum" that could save Himari's life. That penguidrum was Kanba's. It just so happened that half of it was inside Shou. Well, it wasn't a coincidence (read below)

And I also think that what Kanba did for Shouma was important to Shouma too.

Of course it was. Without it, Shouma would have "died", in the same way Himari was "dying".

And while it's true it was Kanba's idea to paint the house, he convinces Shouma when he mentions it's for Himari. And when they are talking about their memories it's the memories of all 3.

That scene exemplifies the metaphor of "Kanba and Shouma sharing the apple" perfectly. Kanba convinces Shouma to do things for Himari = Kanba sharing his "apple Himari" with Shouma. And that gave Shouma a reason to live for, which was what he lacked. That's how I see it.

I can take it further and say Ringo's love for Himari is also imprtant, as it was her words that initiated the fate transfer to save Himari.

I agree, but I see it from a metaphorical perspective. Ringo's love for Himari inspired Shouma to believe in Kanba, which make the "miracle" possible. For me, that's what her "spell" means.

Because I believe what Ikuhara was ultimately saying its our connections with other people that get us out that box, not just one "fated" person.

I agree. Didn't I say that Shouma needed to believe in Kanba so that Kanba could believe in himself? And didn't I say that what inspired Shouma to believe in Kanba was Ringo's love (for him and for Himari).

All those are connections between people. I just see it from a more symbolic point of view. But we're not exactly disagreeing IMO.

Kirarakim

2011-12-27, 18:04

All those are connections between people. I just see it from a more symbolic point of view. But we're not exactly disagreeing IMO.

Perhaps not and maybe I am just misinterpreting what you are saying. And of course I do believe Ikuhara's works are purposely open to interpretation. I think Ikuhara would want us to discuss the series like this.

Anyways I think we largely agree about most things (and I know you were my Shouma/Ringo partner in crime :heh:) so disagreeing about a few interpretations is no big deal. :)

YayPepsi

2011-12-27, 18:14

I don't know about Yay Pepsi, but I don't disagree with this. I just see it from a different angle (read below)

Same here. (I don't really have anything to add to what you said though, you pretty much said it all and I agree. :heh: )

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 18:50

and I know you were my Shouma/Ringo partner in crime :heh:

I'm still are. I will ship these two for life!!!! :p

Akiyoshi

2011-12-27, 18:54

I barely understand a lot of stuff from the ginale but it was somehow touching as hell(or heaven?), like somewhere inside me i can understand what's happening but my coucnsious mind is unable to explain it.

A powerfull ending to a very weird series. I'll miss this little gem xD

Utsuro no Hako

2011-12-27, 21:46

I think it works, specially for what his penguin showed about him. For example, remember when Ringo fell into the pond back in episode 4? That was a pretty funny penguin joke, but moments like this showed there was a part of Shou that didn't care as much as he seemed to.

You're right that most of his inner apathy comes from being beaten by life so much, but it doesn't change the fact that there was always a part his heart that just wasn't into it.

And yet Shouma did save Ringo from drowning, and his actions throughout the first half of the series were directed at helping her, even at the expense of the quest for the Penguin Drum. He could do that because she's not a Takakura and doesn't share the curse Kenzan and Chiemi brought upon the family. That changed once he found out about Momoka and started to believe that Ringo was just another part of the punishment.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-27, 22:10

And yet Shouma did save Ringo from drowning.

No one was denying that. All I was saying is how his penguin showed that a part of him didn't care, and that's true.

Crontica

2011-12-28, 00:01

So Sanetoshi is a symbolism for Despair + Natural Disintegration

While Momoka is a symbolism for Magic + Transmutation, so what ever that diary contained was the trigger for numerous instances hey Triple H has a matching blood type for Himari! Or the brothers stumbling across a powerful book, sealing a deal with the devil, etc etc.

lovestapler

2011-12-28, 02:30

Oh my gosh. I can't believe it's over. No more Penguindrum Thursdays. D:

That said, the ending was so perfect. I love everything about this series. Easily one of my all time favourites. I'm always going to be searching for the next Penguindrum. (':

Stealther

2011-12-28, 04:50

Akiyoshi

2011-12-28, 05:11

The diary represented Ringo's penguin drum, her purpose of life. To become Momoka and get loved. Overall the penguindrum is mostly depicted as love/being loved in this series. Without a purpose in life you're not alive. Yuri's lost purpose was also connected to the diary, Momoka.

That's why the hat said the diary is PERHAPS the penguin drum. It is a purpose of life, but not necessarily the brothers' purpose. They had to find their own.

Going by this train of tought Ringo is a hundred times more Badass than i tought, she got her purpouse in life effectively destroyed in Ep. 23 and she suffered deeply and desperate in a last effort to protect it, and, despite failing, despite having her penguindrum destroyed between her very own hands she steps up and go confronting Sanetoshi one last time. She may not have brawns but GOD that girl have GUTS!

Kazu-kun

2011-12-28, 17:04

Going by this train of tought Ringo is a hundred times more Badass than i tought, she got her purpouse in life effectively destroyed in Ep. 23 and she suffered deeply and desperate in a last effort to protect it, and, despite failing, despite having her penguindrum destroyed between her very own hands she steps up and go confronting Sanetoshi one last time. She may not have brawns but GOD that girl have GUTS!

The thing is that by the time it's destroyed, the diary is not her penguindrum anymore. I mean, at the beginning Ringo's purpose is indeed to become Momoka and be loved, but by the end of the series she's a totally different person, who instead of becoming Momoka just wants to be herself, and instead of being loved, is more concerned on giving love to others.

So yeah, I agree she's got a lot of guts, but more than that, she's got a very big HEART!

Iron Maw

2011-12-29, 09:02

Wonderful ending! Like some others in this thread, I don't completely understand what happened in this episode (as well the series in as whole), but the general idea is clear me. I don't think can say much then everyone else has.

I one thing I'm wondering about is the bit about Sanetoshi's past in the medical field. Perhaps some a event or events that in happened around that time might provide some insight into how came to his ideology and further leading him to terrorism.

risingstar3110

2011-12-29, 23:01

In the end, Kanba and Shouma had each other. Their brotherly bond was reconstituted. Their sacrifice was both necessitated by the tragedies arising from family abandonment, but also helped to give Himari a family (and a close friend in Ringo, who is perhaps a sister-like figure to Himari now).

In their final acts, we see both the sad tragedies that can arise from familial abandonment and divisions, but also a hopeful message in how a new family (at least of sorts) can arise out of the ashes, as it did for Himari.

If you view the ending through this lens, I think it makes good sense thematically, and ties in nicely with everything that came before.

Ikuhara himself is not particularly fond of shipping. IIRC, he quipped that he wanted to kill off Tuxedo Kamen to keep him away from Sailor Moon, but Tuxedo Kamen had this habit of continuously coming back. ;) Well, in MPD, he had his chance to kill off the male half of two prominent shippings, and he took it. :heh:

But again, this anime was never really about romantic love, but rather about familial love, and the importance of family in general.
Finally have time to watch this, and i definitely agree with the last line.

One of the main drive for everything in this anime is romantic love, from Kanba toward Himari,from Ringo toward Tabuki and later on Shouma. But by the end it's no longer matter. The brothers on their trips traveling through the galaxy (bromance!!) after sacrificing their life for what they loved and believed. Himari and Ringo are left behind, however are connected with the bonding by Shouma and Kanba, which clearly was assimilated to Tabuki and Yuri toward the ending.

Kissing and romantic feeling somehow no longer matter, once they all loved each other quite the same

Edit: btw, i think the apple sharing between Kan and Sho was actually apple sharing, literally the fruit of fate. Also, it was Shouma returning his favour in the end, as he was sacrificed in Ringo's place to stop Kanba from the point of no return. It really all comes back as a full circle

Edit 2:i don't think #3 left the note btw, it was Kan and Shou back when they sew back the teddy bear

molitar

2011-12-31, 17:18

Sorry this ending just plain sucked.. penguin hearts being apples.. apples representing fate.. penguin drum is an apple.. WTF? The symbolism of Love here is awful.. love and be FORGOTTEN! Become a NOBODY! NOBODY remembers you! WTF???

That is what the ending put out! Nothing more nothing less! Sorry but Love is to be remembered! To sacrifice and share in hopes and pains together! And when your gone you are remembered! The writer of this novel has a SICK view of Love reading all this crap symbolism! Because that is the ONLY thing this story put out! Fate can not be changed! Definitely an atheist because accepting Christ in your heart changes our FATE! We get salvation. Love means to sacrifice onself and be forgotten! Sorry but Christ was not forgotten, my father that passed away was not forgotten, as well as all the others I know that passed away.

So even trying to put some Christian view into this story does not work for me because the ending was just plain sick! It did not give hope but only gives despair. This anime gets the deleted from me because they sacrificed themselves to save the others to only be forgotten??? That is just too SICK of a story for myself.. the ending was painful.

Akiyoshi

2011-12-31, 21:49

Yet Shouma and Kanba were rewarded by realizing they're ultimately able to save the people they wanted to save. Lots of people die everyday without one soul realizing the merits they achieved over life but that means they lived meaninless lives? Hell no!

The biggest desire of Kanba was saving Himari no matter the cost and he gets his wish conceded. Shoma came to the realization that he was to accept himself in order to help the ones he cares for and thus become able to giving Kanba what he needs to save Himari and he himself made a sacrifice to save the girl she loves from her fromer cruel and unavoidable destiny. If anything the Takakura siblings effectively beated fate itself. They're not remember as individuals but the love and pain of their actions will remain forever in the lives of those close to them. I think it's a powerfull message.

Stealther

2011-12-31, 22:30

Well, this anime is impossible to fully grasp without knowledge about the sarin gas attack, Underground by Murakami and Night on the Galactic Railroad, and general perception of the South-Eastern culture and society (and an analytic mind).

The main message was to reach out to invisible children, chosen ones fortunate enough to have an apple, should share. It also tried to tell that cults (by changing the cult from religious to environmental) aren't really different from us. If you think, most cults are really knowledgable and they think alot. The difference is that they are willing to go the whole way without compromising themselves and their beliefs. The South-Eastern societies are very and harsh with distinguishing US and THEM. They are different from us. They are evil. They are not human. Cults can also give meaning and purpose when noone reaches out for invisible children.

In one episode near the end Shouma asks his father if he knows about the Child Broiler, and he does. He says it's where unwanted children by the society goes. And he says you can't do anything for them, but change the society (he screams SURVIVAL STRATEGY for a lasting future, and means to change the society with the sarin gas attack). Shouma however, found another way. He shared his apple with Ringo, much like how Dalai Lama always speaks how he wants to achieve world peace. By compassion, changing from individual level and spreading through the world. You don't have to change it from the top. And Ikakura also explicitely said that he believes people who hurt other people to reach their goals will never be successful. Momoka represented this idea, unlike Sanetoshi. So this is the message of Mawaru Penguindrum. Love. Compassionate love, not romantic love.

Environmental message for a sustainable world was actually there quite often too, if you look carefully.

Ending is harder to explain, but it's an obvious reference to Night on Galactic Railroad where the Scorpion Fire (Kanba) finally finds purpose by sacrificing himself, letting Ringo living in his place. Harder to understand Shouma, but I just look at it as the fairy-tale element which Night on Galactic Railroad is. I doubt there is a correct answer to the actual fate transfer, but to me it didn't matter much.

I won't pretend I caught all of this myself. I couldn't get the full extension of the cult and we-them issue, and also Scorpion Fire which Kanba possesses, before I read different theories on Internet.
However, the I loved the series without fully understanding it, because it was still funny and dramatic and beautiful both for eyes and ears. I also enjoyed speculating, and the anime made me want to read more, to perhaps understand it better. Which I did.

Kazu-kun

2011-12-31, 23:53

I think your post highlights some really interesting ideas, but this line here I can't help but strongly disagree with.

So this is the message of Mawaru Penguindrum. Love. Compassionate love, not romantic love.

Penguindrum is about LOVE in general, from the altruistic love that Momoka felt for the world, to the family love between the siblings, passing by the romantic love between Ringo and Shouma and between Tabuki and Momoka herself (and later Yuri). Penguindrum doesn't reject any of these, rather it embraces them all. The point is to reach out and give love to others, it doesn't matter what kind of love.

This is why the climax of the series plays out the way it does, with Ringo inspiring Shouma to believe that Kanba can save Himari, and ultimately going back to save Ringo and close the circle. The climax is literally built upon the love these characters feel for one another, which encompasses everything I listed above.

Stealther

2012-01-01, 04:39

True, it's about love, and what's mostly being depicted is compassionate love. There is nothing contradicting about romantic love in the series, so maybe I took it too far.

Liddo-kun

2012-01-06, 07:52

It's not exactly the end that I wanted, but still somewhat satisfied on how things turned out. Nearly cried as Kanba carried Himari, laying her down gently before he turned into shards of glass.

frubam

2012-11-26, 10:08

Kind of a bittersweet ending, but good nonetheless. I thought Himari would end up with Shouma because of all the 'soulmate' talk, and I felt her having such feelings would be, in a way, out of nowhere. Fortunately, the couple I cared about(Ringo/Shouma) perserved to the end. I didn't really like Kanba as much, so he didn't move me emotionally like the other 3(Ringo/Shouma/Himari) did.

The one thing that really bothered me near the end was the brief conversation between Momoka and Sanetoshi. After the emotional rollercoaster between the 4 main characters, that convo really seemed like(for lack of a better description) two gods who waged a friendly battle to only see who was superior. They had no empathy for the lives they affected with their actions. I was def shocked that I got this feeling more from Momoka than Sanetoshi. It really left a bad taste in my mouth =0\.

Edict

2012-11-29, 01:54

I can understand that interpretation since it would in fact seem like a peculiar indifference to the plight of the many involved amid the interplay of countervailing personifications. However the impression I had was that the tone of discussion was intended to convey a 'formal' summation at a somewhat abstract level. Of course that is heavily dependent on what is supposed of events and associated factors and for that matter the intended narrative structure. When I'm prepared to rewatch this series I'll check whether any earlier discussions will be of use in clarifying if that type of representation is apparent. Actually I cannot specifically recall any prior discussions between the Queen and Sanetoshi, and so saying as much I might just be referring to different 'characters'.

JacksonMoon

2013-01-27, 15:49

My general rule is if I am satisfied, no matter how stupid the ending, even if it doesn't explain everything, then I'm fine.

Everyone lives happily ever after is perfectly fine with me even with plot holes. The main thing is to actually have an ending, bad or good.

Those shows that end and give you something to cling onto for another season, to find they dont make another season, erggh! lol