Sei and Shiori (Spoilers)

[Shad da Von]

Do you think Sei and Shiori should have run away together? why? why not?

Im personally glad they didn't but Im not going to give my reasons till more people post.

[LoveOfAnime]

I am personally glad they did not because if they had sei would not have been in the story. That would have affected the whole season and the storyline without her. I love the way she is always teasing Yumi. She seems to me to be the most lighthearted fun loving of the bunch.

[Shad da Von]

I am personally glad they did not because if they had sei would not have been in the story. That would have affected the whole season and the storyline without her. I love the way she is always teasing Yumi. She seems to me to be the most lighthearted fun loving of the bunch.
In truth thats one of the first reasons I thought of also. however do you think Sei would have been happier if they had run? and if so wouldn't fans of Sei want her to be happiest? or perhaps they care so little for her that they disregard her feelings?

Also what do you think would have happened to them had they ran away? and why do you think Shiori desided not to go at the last minute?

just trying to get a little conversation going.

Shiori is personally one of my favourite characters and I think that she would have be discontent with her life had she ran. that and in the end I think it would have ended badly hurting them both more then it did.

I actually find it rather curious that Sei has such a large following as Im somewhat wary of her. I like her but some aspects of her character seem to me to be somewhat .. hmm. tainted?

And its also interesting how Shiori never was considered to be Sei's soeur and thus I think it creates noticable differance or separation between their relationship and that of any of the other characters' relationships.

ohkay I will be quiet now :P

[atua]

I am personally glad they did not because if they had sei would not have been in the story. That would have affected the whole season and the storyline without her. I love the way she is always teasing Yumi. She seems to me to be the most lighthearted fun loving of the bunch.

It's interesting you say that, because to me the light-hearted Sei is mostly just a facade. I have a rather different view on Sei. She is the character that seems the most self-absorbed out of the Yamayurikai (maybe except for Eriko, but we know so little about her).


Also what do you think would have happened to them had they ran away? and why do you think Shiori desided not to go at the last minute?

just trying to get a little conversation going.

Shiori is personally one of my favourite characters and I think that she would have be discontent with her life had she ran. that and in the end I think it would have ended badly hurting them both more then it did.

I'm still trying to get a grasp on why Shiori decided not to go at the last minute. The anime would've had to cut a lot from the book due to time constraints, and I think much of the nuances in this relationship got cut along with it.

I think part of the reason Shiori decided not to go was that in coming to a decision to be a nun Shiori would've had to decide at one point to dedicate her life to God above all else. We don't really know anything about Shiori's religious experience, perhaps it had something to do with her parents death. In any case, we can infer that her faith is a very important part of her as something that gives her life meaning and comforts, supports and strengthens her. To leave with Sei would mean leaving all of that behind.

The other reason I think she left is for Sei's own sake. Sei was so single minded about Shiori that she was missing the bigger picture about their relationship and about life in general. As viewers, we can see how Sei missed Youko's genuine concern for her until the end. Also I think a lot of Sei's attraction to Shiori was to the sense of religious serenity that Shiori exudes. The irony is that by having Shiori, she would lose the part of Shiori that attracts her the most.

So I agree with you that running away probably wouldn't have worked out in the long run and that it would've hurt them both a lot more. The whole running-away was very much a spur of the moment decision, and actually I found that whole scene pretty cliched.


I actually find it rather curious that Sei has such a large following as Im somewhat wary of her. I like her but some aspects of her character seem to me to be somewhat .. hmm. tainted?

I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.


And its also interesting how Shiori never was considered to be Sei's soeur and thus I think it creates noticable differance or separation between their relationship and that of any of the other characters' relationships.

Sei was quite deliberate in not choosing Shiori as her soeur. A soeur relationship is a formal relationship of duty and responsibility; as a part of a soeur couple, one would have duties to your grande soeur and be responsible for your petite soeur. I think Sei had a point in thinking that to formalise their relationship at that point would be to trivialise the depth of their feelings.

Sorry for the long post...

[mantidor]

i don't know! why always deep relationships have to end hurting everyone involved??? and thats the reason why we like them?? why we cannot think that they probably would be happy together in the long run?? i mean, they should...

[laurore31]

I just know the anime, not novel. but i'm glad they didn't.
because Sei won't be happy with a girl who wants to be nun --> some day, Shiori would have perhaps regretted. and Sei, obviously, would have reproach herself to be on the way of Shiori destiny.

And in the anime, we don't feel Shiori likes Sei.... maybe a little, but not how Rei likes Yoshino, Yumi likes Sachiko, or Sei likes her :-( So, it's definitively better that they didn't run away.

The elder sister of Sei and Youko are SUGOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. I'm happy that they were here to help and comfort Sei...

[babbito2k]

Bah, who wants to get dumped by a Catholic girl in favor of celibacy? It's better that the relationship didn't get off the ground because that's what would have happened sooner or later.

[Shad da Von]

I think part of the reason Shiori decided not to go was that in coming to a decision to be a nun Shiori would've had to decide at one point to dedicate her life to God above all else. We don't really know anything about Shiori's religious experience, perhaps it had something to do with her parents death. In any case, we can infer that her faith is a very important part of her as something that gives her life meaning and comforts, supports and strengthens her. To leave with Sei would mean leaving all of that behind.
I believe this is along the lines of the truth. Shiori appeared to have devoted her life to God and I believe she had been acting like a nun with the plan to become one in the future once she felt she was old enough perhaps. Though I believe she may have loved Sei I think she basically picked God over Sei at the last moment, the one she had lived her life for before she even met Sei. To leave with Sei I believe would have been the equivalent to abandoning her purpose for life. Im somewhat skeptical whether or not I explained what I wanted to well -_-
The other reason I think she left is for Sei's own sake. Sei was so single minded about Shiori that she was missing the bigger picture about their relationship and about life in general. As viewers, we can see how Sei missed Youko's genuine concern for her until the end. Also I think a lot of Sei's attraction to Shiori was to the sense of religious serenity that Shiori exudes. The irony is that by having Shiori, she would lose the part of Shiori that attracts her the most.
I believe this is probably close to the truth as well. As I said above I think Shiori trully cared for Sei and saw that their relationship was becoming harmful not only to Sei but also to herself.
I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.
I find this rather interesting could I persuade you to try elaborating more?
Sei was quite deliberate in not choosing Shiori as her soeur. A soeur relationship is a formal relationship of duty and responsibility; as a part of a soeur couple, one would have duties to your grande soeur and be responsible for your petite soeur. I think Sei had a point in thinking that to formalise their relationship at that point would be to trivialise the depth of their feelings.
I agree but I also believe this topic can be used as an argument against the popular belief that this series is primarily a yuri. I think that the emphises on the distinct differance between the relationship of Shiori and Sei (I believe to be more yuri content) and that of the soeurs' relationships creates a sense that the soeurs' relationship are comparible to a more sisterhood relation. I think this is also supported by the tradition of calling each other sister. Unfortunately I have not yet read the novels and my working knowledge of the intracasies of japanese lit is.. rather poor.
Sorry for the long post...
No need to apologize I greatly enjoyed your post
And in the anime, we don't feel Shiori likes Sei.... maybe a little, but not how Rei likes Yoshino, Yumi likes Sachiko, or Sei likes her :-( So, it's definitively better that they didn't run away
I don't think I agree which might be obvious from what I have written above. I do feel that Shiori liked Sei a great deal.

[laurore31]

I don't think I agree which might be obvious from what I have written above. I do feel that Shiori liked Sei a great deal.

but not enough to give up the idea to be nun.

Maybe i think that because the anime shows Shiori in only one episode, i don't know the novel.

For me, a love between two girls is an exclusive feeling. Sei can't deal with God... Shiori can't exclusivly love Sei and God. i think...

So it's better for Sei that Shiori gives up.... even if Sei suffers a lot... I think she would more and more suffer if Shiori has accepted the "escape".

[kj1980]

i don't know! why always deep relationships have to end hurting everyone involved??? and thats the reason why we like them?? why we cannot think that they probably would be happy together in the long run?? i mean, they should...

Then relationships portrayed in such medium would be plain and boring.

Back onto the subject of "did Shiori love Sei," yes she did - very much so that she chose not to runaway with Sei. Two teenagers that runaway would pretty much end up dead (as in Suga Sei's "Ibara no Mori") and Shiori did not want to see that happen to her beloved Sei - so she chose not to come, especially after seeing Sei at the train station.

[guest]

I presume that most people here, including myself, haven’t read the novels. I think we really should not interpret anime before we know the content in novels. We all know that anime cut out A LOT from novels. Therefore, any judgment /argument / interpretation / issue just from anime is incomplete and most likely not fair. Just from anime, it’s not clear why Sei loves Shoiri or vice versa, not clear why Shiori decides not to run away, not clear just what kind or how deep or whatever of relationship they have. Actually, it’s not even clear what Sei means when she says that her attitude in class becomes strange. It may sound not important, but if one wants to analyze the situation, especially like the one here, he/she should really learn as much as possible before reaching conclusion. There are just examples of the issues in the anime. If people have read the novels, they may have different, very different, thoughts about this matter.



This is just like the age-old argument: if the survey says that certain brand of cereal is the best, most people might believe it and fail to take into account that they do not reveal the source, i.e. how this survey was conducted etc. It could very well be that 8 out of 10 people have ever had cereal before. That’s the results of this survey.



Hence, I think, one can only use general assumption in this case such as; two teenage girls running away usually result in unhappy ending, things like general facts.



Sorry that I may sound harsh and I am in a hurry, but this really is only personal opinion.

[Shad da Von]

presume that most people here, including myself, haven’t read the novels. I think we really should not interpret anime before we know the content in novels. We all know that anime cut out A LOT from novels. Therefore, any judgment /argument / interpretation / issue just from anime is incomplete and most likely not fair.
very possible and probable
There are just examples of the issues in the anime. If people have read the novels, they may have different, very different, thoughts about this matter.
also very possible and probable
It may sound not important, but if one wants to analyze the situation, especially like the one here, he/she should really learn as much as possible before reaching conclusion.
I agree. however it is rather unfortunate that at the present time it is rather difficult for me, and most likely others, to learn much more a the present time. Also in stating our opinions I don't believe we are concluding things but rather participating in a group effort to understand better the situations that we are talking about, primarily by stating our opinions and making suggestions to others. I agree that our current resources are limited but I don't believe this makes one's efforts to understand the events taking place in the anime as vain. I believe it is helpful -- and necessary -- that we should try to understand the truth of things instead of conceding to ignorance. In discusing the topic I believe we all learn, at least a little, about the subject. Hopefully someone more knowledgable then us will also come to discuse and enlighten us to intracasies of the situation that we otherwise would not have seen.

Though I agree we must recognize our limited ability and not jump to conclusions hastily.
This is just like the age-old argument: if the survey says that certain brand of cereal is the best
Im not sure if I fulling agree with this statement.. perhaps its because Im a statistics major ..
Hence, I think, one can only use general assumption[s]
I believe that the anime did a well enough job that we can look deeper, at least somewhat, into the situations that take place.
Sorry that I may sound harsh and I am in a hurry, but this really is only personal opinion.
I don't believe you sounded harsh at all and I greatly appreciate your opinion -- which is valid. However I wish to apologize as to if I sounded harsh and for my bad grammar which in truth I really didn't try to use (I really doubt anyone cares though).

Now back on topic
Back onto the subject of "did Shiori love Sei," yes she did - very much so that she chose not to runaway with Sei. Two teenagers that runaway would pretty much end up dead (as in Suga Sei's "Ibara no Mori") and Shiori did not want to see that happen to her beloved Sei - so she chose not to come, especially after seeing Sei at the train station.
Though this is possible I think you might be giving Shiori a little too much credit. I think it more likely that Shiori had desided not to go with Sei before she saw her at the station and that she just lost her courage to tell Sei her decision when she saw her. Though I do think she knew that it would end badly if she did run away and didn't want that for Sei, but I think her choice to become a nun may have played a significant part in her decision or at least strengthened her resolve.
I don't think I agree which might be obvious from what I have written above. I do feel that Shiori liked Sei a great deal.
but not enough to give up the idea to be nun.
perhaps not. She had been living a life devoted to God before she had met Sei and though she loved Sei I don't believe she wanted to forsake God, and for an (acting) nun to forsake her God is not a small matter.

[laurore31]

Then relationships portrayed in such medium would be plain and boring.

Back onto the subject of "did Shiori love Sei," yes she did - very much so that she chose not to runaway with Sei. Two teenagers that runaway would pretty much end up dead (as in Suga Sei's "Ibara no Mori") and Shiori did not want to see that happen to her beloved Sei - so she chose not to come, especially after seeing Sei at the train station.

why we can't conclude that in the anime ?
I really like your thoughts, then ok I give up ;-) The anime cut too much scenes I believe. there are not enough time to like Shiori, not time to understand her...
thus I will trust you, if their love is dedicated (in the novel) to the failure/death, then yes sincerely I prefer that they didn't run away together! And with what you say, I begin to like Shiori...

[atua]

As I said above I think Shiori truly cared for Sei and saw that their relationship was becoming harmful not only to Sei but also to herself.
I believe that Shiori truly loved Sei. But I think laurore31 is also correct in saying that Shiori didn't love Sei the way Sei loved her. I see Sei's love as an obsessive, all consuming love that would never have lasted. I know that it's the type of love that tends to get glorified, but I see it as something that's rather brittle and fragile. By putting Shiori on a pedestal in her own mind, Sei was just setting Shiori up for a fall sooner or later.

Also I don't believe Sei really knew Shiori as a person, eg when Sei was totally caught off guard by Youko's revelation about Shiori. I get the sense that she loved Shiori more as an ideal and not as a person.

*** PERSONAL RANT ALERT ***

In my opinion, one prerequisite (amongst many) for a successful relationship is knowledge, both self-knowledge and knowledge about your partner. What I mean is that people need to know who they are and what they want in life, and how that fits in with their partner's personality and goals if a relationship is to work out. Often couples break up because they discover down the track that they have very different and incompatible goals in life.

Being in love and having a partner doesn't magically make your own problems go away. You still need to figure out how to deal with them yourself, albeit with some help sometimes. Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.

*** END RANT ***

As for how all this relates to Sei and Shiori, Sei made the mistake of assuming that Shiori will give up her life goals for Sei. Also Sei tried to use Shiori to solve her personal problems without actually looking at her own underlying issues. If the only thing that Sei learnt from the whole Shiori incident was that she needs to start living for herself, then that would've been a valuable lesson.

On a more shallow note, I'm glad she learnt this lesson since that's why we get treated to some of Sei's more outrageous antics. ;)


For me, a love between two girls is an exclusive feeling. Sei can't deal with God... Shiori can't exclusivly love Sei and God. i think...
I'm not sure that I agree that romantic love between two people is *always* an exclusive feeling, but I do agree that Shiori can't exclusively love both God and Sei. I don't see it so much as a matter of her choosing God over Sei, but rather her choosing to follow her own heart and path in life, rather than Sei's.

People choosing to live for someone else's goals often end up very bitter about the whole situation. I wouldn't have wanted to see Shiori ended up hating Sei.



I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.
I find this rather interesting could I persuade you to try elaborating more?
I don't know about the yellow rose family, but members of the white & red rose family both have certain stylistic characteristics that makes them distinct. For example, Sachiko/Youko are both outwardly dignified, reserved and elegant people in the "ojou-sama" mould. (Though their actual personalities are very different; Youko is a perceptive, self-assured and wise leader whilst Sachiko just looks self-assured but is really quite insecure.) Admittedly Yumi is a notable exception, but Yumi is an anomaly to the whole Yamayurikai system.

In the same way, the white rose family mambers (I'm including Shizuka here) also follow a certain archetype, but their similarities are based more on personality traits than appearance. Here's a list of some characteristics I think they have in common:
"Porcupines" dilemma. They're people with deep feelings who long to be understood, but create distance in various ways to avoid emotional pain.
Perceptive. Eg. Sei noticed Yumi's attraction long before Sachiko did (ep 2), Shimako figured out that Yumi & Sachiko would be good for each other (ep 2), Shizuka had Shimako figured out in ep 13 and also spotted Yumi even if Yumi doesn't remember her (ep 6).
They're loners or see themselves as outsiders. Eg. Sei in ep 11, Shimako choosing to eat lunch outside away from others (ep 2), Shizuka as an outsider to the Yamayurikai in Rosa Canina.
Good sense of irony/humour. Eg. Sei's "two birds with one stone soeur pair", Shimako putting up a card she was supposed to "hide" on a public bulletin board.
Strong sense of personal free will. Eg. Sei & Shimako in Rosa Canina.
Direct and outspoken when necessary. Eg. Shimako speaking up for Yumi (ep 1), Shizuka to Shimako (ep 6, 12, 13)
Thoughtful & introspective. Eg. Sei (ep 10, 11, 13), Shimako & Shizuka (ep 13)


I agree but I also believe this topic can be used as an argument against the popular belief that this series is primarily a yuri. I think that the emphises on the distinct differance between the relationship of Shiori and Sei (I believe to be more yuri content) and that of the soeurs' relationships creates a sense that the soeurs' relationship are comparible to a more sisterhood relation.
I think the series (and perhaps the novel) is deliberately ambiguous on this point, so readers and viewers can have different but equally valid points of view depending on what scenes they're referring to and how they interpret those scenes. Although I see a number of the Yamayurikai pairings as strictly soeur relations, the Yumi/Sachiko (ep 2, 3, 8), Rei/Yoshino (ep 5 - I honestly thought for a second that they were about to kiss, 8, 13) and even the Sei/Shimako (ep 8, 9, 13) pairings all have one or more ambiguous scenes that suggest one or both of the soeurs may having deeper feelings.

[kj1980]

Though this is possible I think you might be giving Shiori a little too much credit. I think it more likely that Shiori had desided not to go with Sei before she saw her at the station and that she just lost her courage to tell Sei her decision when she saw her. Though I do think she knew that it would end badly if she did run away and didn't want that for Sei, but I think her choice to become a nun may have played a significant part in her decision or at least strengthened her resolve.

Yes, her devotion to Catholicism to serve herself by becoming a nun is one of the large issue. However, the anime failed to show Shiori's letter to Sei which reads:

[excerpt page 275 from "Ibara no Mori" - "Shiroki Bara" Chapter]
『私は、あの時本当にあなたと一緒に生きていけたらいいと思いました。けれど、ホームで私を待つあなたの横 顔を見ているうちに、それはとても困難であることがわかったのです。私とあなたが一緒に旅立った先に、何が 待っているでしょう。私は、私と出会ったことで、あなたをこれ以上傷つけたくはないのです。』

"At the time, I thought it would be dear to go by living along side with you. But, as I glimpsed your face at the station, I have realized how hard that reality would be. What will await us as we head for the unknown. I do not want to hurt you any more further because of me."

Maria-sama ga Miteru Ibara no Mori, 1999.5.10, Konno Oyuki, printed by Shueisha/Cobalt Magazine

[atua]

I love you kj1980!!! :D Thank you so much for the excerpt and the translation!

[mantidor]

[excerpt page 275 from "Ibara no Mori" - "Shiroki Bara" Chapter]
『私は、あの時本当にあなたと一緒に生きていけたらいいと思いました。けれど、ホームで私を待つあなたの横 顔を見ているうちに、それはとても困難であることがわかったのです。私とあなたが一緒に旅立った先に、何が 待っているでしょう。私は、私と出会ったことで、あなたをこれ以上傷つけたくはないのです。』

I could understand that!!! im soooo happy now!! :D if you want to know why, read my post in the "thank you" thread! besides that clarifies many things, thanks!

[FlyByNite]

Nobody even brought up that in Catholicism if you have a same-sex relationship you are committing a sin.

It's not a sin to be gay, they teach that someone may be 'wired' that way, but they should not give in to it. It's a sin if they then pursue a relationship.


I honestly could care less, but I thought it was worth mentioning since Shiori was going to be a nun and seemed very devout in her religion.

[Shad da Von]

there are not enough time to like Shiori, not time to understand her...
I agree
Shiori is personally one of my favourite characters
This statement may have been rather hastily fomulated on my part. Perhaps I have grown to like my imagined image of Shiori instead of the intended character in the anime. I believe this might be so because I have personally done a fair amount of studying on monasticism, admittedly for the Eastern Orthodox Church instead of the Catholic Church. However because of my personal interest in monasticism I feel I can understand Shiori better, at least primitively.
I believe that Shiori truly loved Sei. But I think laurore31 is also correct in saying that Shiori didn't love Sei the way Sei loved her. I see Sei's love as an obsessive, all consuming love that would never have lasted. I know that it's the type of love that tends to get glorified, but I see it as something that's rather brittle and fragile. By putting Shiori on a pedestal in her own mind, Sei was just setting Shiori up for a fall sooner or later.

Also I don't believe Sei really knew Shiori as a person, eg when Sei was totally caught off guard by Youko's revelation about Shiori. I get the sense that she loved Shiori more as an ideal and not as a person.
I agree with this. I have stated several times that I believe Shiori loved Sei; however, I can't recollect myself ever stating that Sei loved Shiori. I believe Sei's "love" for Shiori was destructive to them both.

Now to go a little off topic..
In my opinion, one prerequisite (amongst many) for a successful relationship is knowledge, both self-knowledge and knowledge about your partner. What I mean is that people need to know who they are and what they want in life, and how that fits in with their partner's personality and goals if a relationship is to work out. Often couples break up because they discover down the track that they have very different and incompatible goals in life.

Being in love and having a partner doesn't magically make your own problems go away. You still need to figure out how to deal with them yourself, albeit with some help sometimes.
I feel this is fairly well said.
Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.
This however I don't fully agree with. I don't believe one should live for themself first and foremost, this I believe can lead to a destructive relationship. I believe for the most part humanity is living this way already. People I think are for the most part are selfish. Looking at oneself I think one can realize how self absorbed we can be think thoughts like "I should wake up now", "I think I will read the newspaper", "Im feeling kinda hungry hmm maybe I will go eat that". Our entire day is rather selfishly self absorbed in our own well being and self pleasure. However I believe we should love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Taking into account how much we love ourselves thats a fair amount. Am I saying that Shiori should have gone with Sei? no no no. I am saying we should try to love everyone and care for everyone. I don't believe living for someone else will make one miserable and bitter but rather the opposite. However take what Im saying with a grain of salt (wisdom) I believe one must watch out for their own soul and flee from that which will harm it. What does it profit a man if he saves the world and loses his own soul? which brings up the interesting topic of would you kill someone to save a million others? (a topic I like to discuss with people). However Im getting a little more religious then I had intended -_-
People choosing to live for someone else's goals often end up very bitter about the whole situation. I wouldn't have wanted to see Shiori ended up hating Sei.
I think living "for someones else's goals" in the way you mean it is indeed rather destructive. But I don't believe it means we should focus on ourselves first and foremost.

Anway what Im trying to say is that I think people should live for others but must not forget themselves in the process. moving back on topic..
As for how all this relates to Sei and Shiori, Sei made the mistake of assuming that Shiori will give up her life goals for Sei. Also Sei tried to use Shiori to solve her personal problems without actually looking at her own underlying issues. If the only thing that Sei learnt from the whole Shiori incident was that she needs to start living for herself, then that would've been a valuable lesson.
I believe that Sei was indeed living for herself, she was just doing a poor job of it. I believe she was so self absorbed that she could no longer see reality around her to the point that she didn't know who Shiori was or what she was about, even though she was spending all her time with her. Though I think she woke up a little after she knew Shiori wasn't coming.
[excerpt page 275 from "Ibara no Mori" - "Shiroki Bara" Chapter]
『私は、あの時本当にあなたと一緒に生きていけたらいいと思いました。けれど、ホームで私を待つあなたの横 顔を見ているうちに、それはとても困難であることがわかったのです。私とあなたが一緒に旅立った先に、何が 待っているでしょう。私は、私と出会ったことで、あなたをこれ以上傷つけたくはないのです。』

"At the time, I thought it would be dear to go by living along side with you. But, as I glimpsed your face at the station, I have realized how hard that reality would be. What will await us as we head for the unknown. I do not want to hurt you any more further because of me."

Maria-sama ga Miteru Ibara no Mori, 1999.5.10, Konno Oyuki, printed by Shueisha/Cobalt Magazine
Ahh very interesting! Thank you! Perhaps Shiori saw that their relationship was having a negative impact on Sei and thus she didn't want to hurt her "any more further". Which makes me wonder if Shiori knew their relationship was harmful long before the final event at the station.

EDIT:
Nobody even brought up that in Catholicism if you have a same-sex relationship you are committing a sin.

It's not a sin to be gay, they teach that someone may be 'wired' that way, but they should not give in to it. It's a sin if they then pursue a relationship.

I honestly could care less, but I thought it was worth mentioning since Shiori was going to be a nun and seemed very devout in her religion.
This is true and I wonder if this may have been another influence for her to not go with Sei. And could be a reason why she wasn't supposed to see Sei anymore in the first place.

[laurore31]

yes Sei feels a destructive love for Shiori.
When I said that love between girls is "exclusive", I said that because at one time of my life, I had the same feeling as Sei's one.

even if the girl who we love is near us, even if this girl loves us too, the conclusion is the hell: the obsession that we simply can't stop. Then the only "drug", which can help us to cure, is a sudden separation. Maybe Shiori has understand that and that's the reason she says she doesn't want to hurt Sei any more. Sei nourishes her feeling as long as she sees Shiori. Then it's really a good thing that Shiori hasn't come at the station...
the day when the Sei's wound will have healed, she will be able to love again. but it takes time ;-)

This form of love (Sei's love) can't be supported by anyone, even not Shiori who is a nun in her heart. to be a nun is not the reason to push back somebody. I think the author used this with an aim of perhaps make understandable that even a person who is a nun cannot support to be loved thus, while being the principal obsessions' subject of someone...ne ?

[Shad da Von]

My browser appears to not want me to post this message. I deleted my cookies and reloged so I will try again.

Thank you laurore31 your very insightful. I agree with you and kj1980 that Shiori didn't run with Sei out of love for her.

[atua]

Yes Sei feels a destructive love for Shiori...even if the girl who we love is near us, even if this girl loves us too, the conclusion is the hell: the obsession that we simply can't stop...

The day when the Sei's wound will have healed, she will be able to love again. but it takes time ;-)

This form of love (Sei's love) can't be supported by anyone, even not Shiori who is a nun in her heart. to be a nun is not the reason to push back somebody...
I agree that Sei's obsessive love is impossible for any one to support. You made a great comparison to it being like a drug. And like a drug addict, Sei would have been constantly looking for that next "high"...

But it is also clear that Sei has move on and started to heal from these events. This was made clear in ep 10 when she recognises the fact that they're now both better off by staying away from each other. Sei's new awareness of the passage of time and the need to look ahead and start living her life by the end of episode 11 is in stark contrast to her attitude whilst she was with Shiori where she wanted time to stay still.

The theme of change and renewal is echoed in the final episode by the turning of the seasons. Just as spring once brought Shiori into Sei's life, it also brought Sei to Shimako's life, and in time will bring Shimako's future petite soeur to Shimako...

Apart from the passage of time, I also think that Shimako had a good deal to do with Sei's healing process. Even as Sei has helped Shimako open up to other people, the responsibility of being Shimako's grande soeur has taught Sei to be less self-absorbed and gain a broader and more balanced perspective of the world.


Ahh very interesting! Thank you! Perhaps Shiori saw that their relationship was having a negative impact on Sei and thus she didn't want to hurt her "any more further". Which makes me wonder if Shiori knew their relationship was harmful long before the final event at the station.
My feeling is that even if Shiori didn't know for sure, she probably suspected well before their final parting, perhaps near the time of their first fight about Maria-sama. After all, I think this was one of the reasons she chose to stay awy from Sei initially, and the scene with the headmistress supports this view. But humans are emotional creatures, and given that Shiori was truly in love with Sei, she would have found it very difficult to stay away for too long. It was only when she realised that Sei was seriously set on running away that she found the conviction to stay away permanently.

:topicoff:Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.I don't believe one should live for themself first and foremost, this I believe can lead to a destructive relationship.
Perhaps I should rephrase that. What I should've said is that people can't live for someone else's expectations and goals. To be forced to live in a way counter to one's own conscience and ideals is a very unpleasant way to live. A trivial example would be a person who wishes to be an artist being forced by his parents to be a doctor etc instead.

I think that living for one's own ideals is ethically neutral; it all depends on the particulars of what you're trying to do and why. A person's goals could be selfish goals that only serve one's own baser desires, or selfless goals that benefits many. What those goals are is a matter for the individual.

Sometimes I think that *all* desires are ultimately selfish. Even those deeds that appear selfless are often motivated by emotional & spiritual self-gratification? What a person gives up in material things is often balanced by the emotional and spiritual well being gained. Even "religious" people do good deeds to gain "heavenly" rewards. Admittedly I usually only think this on days where I'm feeling particularly cynical or depressed.

[Shad da Von]

The theme of change and renewal is echoed in the final episode by the turning of the seasons. Just as spring once brought Shiori into Sei's life, it also brought Sei to Shimako's life, and in time will bring Shimako's future petite soeur to Shimako...
Ahh perceptive. I unfortunately often times focus so much on the characters that I forget to take notice of the hints given by the environment into the situations. I will have to go back and revisit this in the anime, after Im done finals.
Apart from the passage of time, I also think that Shimako had a good deal to do with Sei's healing process. Even as Sei has helped Shimako open up to other people, the responsibility of being Shimako's grande soeur has taught Sei to be less self-absorbed and gain a broader and more balanced perspective of the world.
I believe this is an interesting topic that hasn't really been delt with in much detail -- Sei's recovery after the event. And I agree that Shimako probably helped a great deal in Sei's healing; however, I believe there was a great deal of healing, though perhaps more of a realization of reality, before they met. Also I wonder how Shiori is faring. I believe it was probably very hard on her being the one that to heal her beloved friend she had to permanently separate herself from the relationship.
Perhaps Shiori saw that their relationship was having a negative impact on Sei and thus she didn't want to hurt her "any more further". Which makes me wonder if Shiori knew their relationship was harmful long before the final event at the station.
My feeling is that even if Shiori didn't know for sure, she probably suspected well before their final parting, perhaps near the time of their first fight about Maria-sama. After all, I think this was one of the reasons she chose to stay awy from Sei initially, and the scene with the headmistress supports this view. But humans are emotional creatures, and given that Shiori was truly in love with Sei, she would have found it very difficult to stay away for too long. It was only when she realised that Sei was seriously set on running away that she found the conviction to stay away permanently.
This is well said. As to their first fight about Maria-sama I personally can't think of a more frightful thing someone I love to say other then "Are you choosing God over me?" or something similar like "choose God or me!" Oh what a trully terrible feeling Shiori must have felt!

:topicoff:
What I should've said is that people can't live for someone else's expectations and goals. To be forced to live in a way counter to one's own conscience and ideals is a very unpleasant way to live. A trivial example would be a person who wishes to be an artist being forced by his parents to be a doctor etc instead.
This I agree with this
I think that living for one's own ideals is ethically neutral; it all depends on the particulars of what you're trying to do and why. A person's goals could be selfish goals that only serve one's own baser desires, or selfless goals that benefits many. What those goals are is a matter for the individual.
Indeed its what's in the persons heart that motivates the action that is more important then the action itself.
Sometimes I think that *all* desires are ultimately selfish. Even those deeds that appear selfless are often motivated by emotional & spiritual self-gratification? What a person gives up in material things is often balanced by the emotional and spiritual well being gained. Even "religious" people do good deeds to gain "heavenly" rewards. Admittedly I usually only think this on days where I'm feeling particularly cynical or depressed.
This is an interesting thought that is rather new to me. Though I believe religious people do indeed do good for "heavenly" reward, I believe that it depend apon the person yet again. Where a bad servant would act out of fear of punishment, an ohkay servant would act good out of hope for reward, and a good servant would act good out of love for the master and not desire reward. That is my opinion

EDITED:
I have also made note that several people have voted yes on the poll and I encourage you to post your opinion why.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]I presume that most people here, including myself, haven’t read the novels. I think we really should not interpret anime before we know the content in novels. We all know that anime cut out A LOT from novels. Therefore, any judgment /argument / interpretation / issue just from anime is incomplete and most likely not fair. Just from anime, it’s not clear why Sei loves Shoiri or vice versa, not clear why Shiori decides not to run away, not clear just what kind or how deep or whatever of relationship they have. Actually, it’s not even clear what Sei means when she says that her attitude in class becomes strange.
I, for one, disagree with this attitude. It's important for people to understand that anime characters and novel characters -- any fictional characters, no matter how real they may seem, are not real. They are nothing but imaginary constructions by their creators to serve a particular purpose. Sei is not a real person, and neither is Shiori. Therefore, the situation exists solely in the telling of the tale.

Every storyteller has her own vision, her own intepretation, and her own agenda to achieve in her own story. Even the same story, the same characters, can be told to mean completely different things and achieve different ends. There is no extraneous information about the characters to be had because the characters are limited to the narrative frame they are in - in this case, the anime. Perhaps there are more information about Sei in the novels or the manga, but they are decidedly different tellings of the story (or not), which allows different intepretations.

A meaningless example: in Episode 4 at 5:51 (Anime-Source and Lililicious ver.), Eriko touches her hair when she speaks to Rei. This may or may not exist in the novel, but the duration of her actions, the environment, and the context, all invite intepretation that can be missing in the novel or the manga. (A better example may be the creators' switching the Valentine and Christmas episodes to meet their own ends.) Because of the characters inseparable connection with the narrative, I think it's best to think of the novel, the manga, and the anime as "parallel universes."

I was never fond of the "should" type questions, because it always seemed somewhat didactic and authoritarian. Should people eat pork? Should they be punished if they eat pork? Should we teach children that it's wrong to eat pork because they "shouldn't"?

If we are speaking of a universal moral imperative, then the question would be like "should people run away with their lovers?" If we are speaking only of this specific case, then the question becomes limited to Shiori's ( :uhoh: ) situation.

If we apply the question to a universal level, then my answer is probably: not a good idea. Like many have said, for two teenage girls to run away with no means of livelihood, their lives may turn to ruin very quickly. I think there's the possibility of them living out a pretty good life, but the probability is low. (For some reason I keep thinking of Nabokov's Lolita and Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms, both of which end tragically.)

If the question simply addresses Shiori alone without any regard to a universal, then the answer entirely depends on Shiori. Whatever she thinks best in her situation should (and is) the course she will take. Obviously, she thought it best not to go with Sei; and that, to me, is the best answer.

However, Shiori and Sei are not real people; they are fictional characters. Therefore they would have never run away successfully, because the creators wouldn't allow it. It is probably better to talk about why she didn't than whether she should.

I place myself entirely at the mercy of the translators. Personally, I'm not too fond of ep. 11. Though it's nice to see Rosa Gigantea's past, I feel some parts are horribly underachieving.

The beginning of the episode is especially gripping: Sei's monologue in front of the statue of Virgin Mary is probably one of the most moving scenes in the entire series so far. And when she repeats "Amen. Amen. Amen," I was almost moved to tears by this sense of desperation in her. But, what immediately followed the scene -- Sei and Shiori's first meeting -- seems to lack the intensity and impact it should have in any love as explosive as Sei's. To be honest, I wouldn't have minded fireworks or flowers blossoming in the background or something equally spectacular, or a 30 second absolute silence to convey what happened in Sei's heart at that moment (which was no doubt monumental); but, the creators chose to subdue the atmosphere with Sei's now somewhat bland and ineffective reflection, in line with the ambiguity and calmness that permeates the series.

(Sei's narration continues throughout the episode, but I feel the rest after the scene at the statue to be distractive and counterproductive.)

Their second meeting in the school chapel is quite moving. The entire exchange does seem somewhat bizarre, but her actions are definitely the straightfoward Sei that we know and love. There is definitely something that Sei needs from Shiori, and though we know very little about Shiori, it's likely that the feeling's mutual. The subdued tone of the narration and the vagueness really adds to the audience's confusion, especially in Sei and Shiori's case because their closeness is much greater in magnitude than any others in the series we've seen so far. I think I posted my opinion on Sei's relationship with Shiori in another thread somewhere, but to put it in a nutshell, I don't believe it was anything sexual, at least up to this point.

Although things do start to get complicated as later Sei did try to force a kiss on Shiori (and much later they did share one). It is likely that, in the face of an almost unavoidable separation, Sei tries to evolve the relationship, to define it into something definite and durable (as lovers), in an attempt to keep Shiori from going away.

Like many have said, the decision to "run away" (vaguely similar to the event in Angel Sanctuary) is pretty much at the spur of the moment, but it is also characteristically Sei-sama. Sort of like "going wrong with confidence," I guess. Sei's onee-sama says at some point, "follow the path that you will not regret." I believe that Sei is definitely that kind of person who makes quick decisions but stick to them no matter the consequences.

If Shiori were just like Sei, then they might have really ran away together, but she was not (and even if she were, Sei probably wouldn't have liked her in the first place). Shiori is, from my imagination, a person more influenced by others. It's also quite difficult to understand why she wanted to become a nun; why she would ever engage in a relationship with Sei and not talk about her plans to become a nun; or why she suddenly decided to go with Sei's plan to elope.

Since Sei was all fired up and ready to go, the only reason the plan failed was Shiori. Sometimes I wonder if the school headmistress a.k.a. Kaori, had anything to do with it. From ep. 10, we'ver learned that Seiko and Kaori planned a similar thing and Kaori ended up dead (or so Seiko thought), but from ep. 11 Kaori turns out to be alive and well as the school headmistress. Both Sei and Shiori were called in for a talk at the principal's office, and it's not inconceivable that Kaori told her tale to Shiori- the aspiring nun, which made her realize how bad an idea running away may be. Just a possibility.

It's difficult for me to say if her "wounds" have healed, partly because I don't believe such "wounds" would ever heal. However, Sei definitely has changed (and IMO for the better) after the event (though it's more like a whole year). If she did not meet Shiori, she might still be a self-loathing outcast she considered herself to be at the beginning of ep. 11, and if she did not attempt to run away with Shiori and got "saved" by her onee-sama and Youko, she might not have realized how complete a person she really was. Fate is like that, I guess.

The short segments of Sei in the "Forest of Thorns" are definitely interesting. At first long-haired Sei and Shiori are together sleeping there, and Shiori disappears. Sei's reaction was, "I will never let myself be close to anyone again." She goes on to specify the time of the separation (winter of my 16th year). Only minutes after she turns seventeen, on her way back from the station with Youko and her nameless onee-sama, the long-haired Sei cuts off her locks in the forest of thorns and says "goodbye, Shiori." The new Satou Sei is born at that moment. It's still difficult to say whether she'll let herself "be close to anyone" again, but it's certain that her transformation is the direct result of that failed plan to run away.

To jump to another subject, does anyone feel that Shimako and Shiori are slightly similar? Both are somewhat withdrawn, softspoken, and seemingly "perfect." Yet in ep. 5 when Sachiko was mad at Sei for fooling around with Yumi and suggested Sei doing the same with Shimako, Sei said, "Shimako? I didn't even think of that." Did Sei change her taste or is there something different?

[Asynca]

It's interesting you say that, because to me the light-hearted Sei is mostly just a facade.




I think you just hit the nail SQUARE on the head. I think she still suffers a lot from the situation with Shiori - and that whole flirty playful thing is for the most part an act to fool people (and probably herself) into thinking it's in the past. I have no doubt in my mind she still goes home and cries over it - if not cries, participates in some sort of self-destructive behaviour to cope with/mask her depression?

I want to write a SeixYumi with Yumi uncovering this - but because I don't have the novels or the manga I'm not sure if it's already been dealt with! Someone spoil me.

[pyu]

Personally, I think Yumi's presence has aided in Sei's healing process.

As much as it is said her cheerful facade is just a mask for her hurt - laughing and teasing Yumi has helped Sei to realise that life has to go on and she is still able to experience joy and happiness without Shiori around.

And I don't doubt it that it is ALL fake laughter when Sei reacts towards Yumi's reactions. ;)

Of course, having Yumi come to her to ask for advice and help also made Sei realise that she isn't the only ones have problems in her own life.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

I think you just hit the nail SQUARE on the head. I think she still suffers a lot from the situation with Shiori - and that whole flirty playful thing is for the most part an act to fool people (and probably herself) into thinking it's in the past. I have no doubt in my mind she still goes home and cries over it - if not cries, participates in some sort of self-destructive behaviour to cope with/mask her depression?
Hmm... I wonder.

Why would you think that the whole flirting with Yumi would be an act to fool others? Who would Sei want to fool and why? And seeing how she has a past for questionable relation with another student, don't you think this sort of acting would be playing too close to the fire?

Although, I'm still intrigued by the fact that Sei picks on Yumi instead of Shimako. Is it because Yumi is "safer" because of Sachiko over-protectiveness?

[atua]

Hmm... I wonder.

Why would you think that the whole flirting with Yumi would be an act to fool others? Who would Sei want to fool and why? And seeing how she has a past for questionable relation with another student, don't you think this sort of acting would be playing too close to the fire?

Although, I'm still intrigued by the fact that Sei picks on Yumi instead of Shimako. Is it because Yumi is "safer" because of Sachiko over-protectiveness?
I don't think it was the flirting that Asynca was refering to, but the happy-go-lucky persona that Sei seems to put on. Well, at least that's what I thought Asynca meant...

But in light of the recent ~Haru episodes, whilst I still think that Sei hides a lot of inner turmoil behind her smile, I do think that Sei genuinely enjoys spending time with Yumi, and that the fun she shares with Yumi is real. The present day Sei has changed a lot from the Sei we saw in in the past in Ibara no Mori, and even though it's certainly true that Sei's not totally over the Shiori incident and won't be for some time, she has made big strides towards healing, mostly because of Yumi.

As for why Sei picks on Yumi so often, she's already mentioned that picking on Yumi is a "two for the price of one" deal. She gets to see Yumi's interesting reactions, and gets to see Sachiko's jealous reaction thrown in as well. A secondary motive may be to subtly get back at Sachiko for asking Shimako to be her soeur.

Sei & Shimako on the other hand, is a more complex relationship, but I think ~Haru 6-8 (Cherry Blossom arc) will make the reasons why Sei doesn't approach Shimako in the same way as Yumi pretty apparent.

[Kaoru Chujo]

What an interesting thread. I am glad that Sei and Shiori didn't run away, but I hope they get back together again later, when they are both older. Shiori had decided before to become a nun, but we often change our minds about things we decided when we were younger.

Of course, if it's a decision between Sei and God, Shiori will have to choose God, or she will end up sorry. But some catholics believe it is possible to be lesbian and a good catholic at the same time. Here's a website: http://www.catholiclesbians.org/. In any case, it is part of Christianity that we all sin. We don't have to be perfect to be a member of a church. (I myself am an ex-Christian, so you can take my words with a grain of salt, if you like.)

Sei needs someone who is both loving and responsible, as Shiori proved to be. It is clear that the "happy-go-lucky" Sei is really sad underneath, and trying to cheer herself up by being funny. Comedians are often sad and serious people, really. She tried to solve her underlying sadness by giving in to her grand passion and running away with Shiori, but Shiori saved her from her own irresponsibility. It would not have worked out well. But it may later.

[Jon-o]

Sei needs someone who is both loving and responsible, as Shiori proved to be. It is clear that the "happy-go-lucky" Sei is really sad underneath, and trying to cheer herself up by being funny. Comedians are often sad and serious people, really. She tried to solve her underlying sadness by giving in to her grand passion and running away with Shiori, but Shiori saved her from her own irresponsibility. It would not have worked out well. But it may later.

It's interesting to think about the Shiori situation after seeing episode 6. I think after Shiori left, Sei spent a long time depressed. She was really very antisocial for a while, not really talking to anyone but the other roses by the look of things. Part of that, IMHO, is that she was so SERIOUS about everything - even with Shiori, nothing was ever just silly happiness, it was always a "serious relationship". With Shimako later on, I think she learned that she didn't need such an all-consuming kind of relationship to be close to someone.

Even then, you see some of her funniness, but it's usually pretty vicious and cynical. Seems that's the way she generally deals with stuff...

I expect her silliness with Yumi started in that same vein, but by Christmas, it's more genuine.

Sei's the character I identify with the most.. Can you tell? ;)

[hooliganj]

Upon rewatching the episodes in order (moving Valentine's Day into the second season), it dawned on me how soon after Shiori left that Shimako arrived. The way they presented the stories in the show, it wasn't so easy to notice that less than 4 months have passed between the two events. That went a long way towards explaining why Sei was so depressed when she met Shimako.

More than that, though, I'm impressed with how much better Youko has gotten at manipulating a situation in such a short time. I know she means well, but she can be kind of scary. :D

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Sei had always been a little anti-social, so was Shiori and so was Shimako. Sei seemed a little self-deprecating, Shiori was perhaps restrained by her faith, and Shimako was quite possibly a loner by her own disposition. It is very interesting to hear the thoughts from Sei and Shimako (season 1 ep.11 and season 2 ep. 6), and what we may possibly conjecture from the image of Shiori alone in the chapel praying to Maria-sama. The three of them are very very alike, but also very different at the same time. Perhaps this is where a sense of kinship develops.

I hope they get back together again later, when they are both older. Shiori had decided before to become a nun, but we often change our minds about things we decided when we were younger.
I hope they don't. I think this is one of the main points in the Sei story: to live life as it is and not obsess over the future. The conclusion to the hidden story of Kasuga Seiko and Shimako's reminiscence both point to this idea.

Though, to be honest, I just want to see Sei and Shimako together. :heh:

Upon rewatching the episodes in order (moving Valentine's Day into the second season), it dawned on me how soon after Shiori left that Shimako arrived. The way they presented the stories in the show, it wasn't so easy to notice that less than 4 months have passed between the two events. That went a long way towards explaining why Sei was so depressed when she met Shimako.
Quite true. Though I was actually quite surprised that nobody is suprised that Sei "mentioned another younger student's name" again in so short a time. Then again this would explain Sei's hesitation to get close to Shimako despite a certain attraction.

More than that, though, I'm impressed with how much better Youko has gotten at manipulating a situation in such a short time. I know she means well, but she can be kind of scary.
Ah, Youko. I want to like her so much, but her mix of "mom" and "Ikari Gendo" persona is just too overwhelming.

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

Actually, Youko and Eriko were surprised that Sei slipped out a name.

That's why they dragged Shimako to the council.