Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Shakugan no Shana III, Episode 15.

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[Game8910]

Still no ED animation this episode, but oh man was this good.
Margery's comeback was glorious and we finally have our first named flame haze fall.

[Proto]

Excellent episode. Full of drama and action and love and mystery and... well it might not have had love or mystery really, but it was good nevertheless.

[syke123]

Going to give this a go later tonight, hope Mammon, Sale, and Chiara got some screentime.

[tsunade666]

nothing much happen. They just retreat to the palace and the one who can summon stone structures is dead and I don't even know what happen to silent hill vs sydonay because it was cut off but his probably dead <.< average episode but good nonetheless.

[ars89]

Samuel was badass till the end. Too bad one of the four gods died, but at least the other gods will support the flame hazes now. Best part was Margery's comeback! Like how they hid the palace right there below everything. Wonder what the plan is now though.

[Key Board]

S3 is still going strong

too bad it's the worst selling Shana

[alvinkhorfire]

^
@Key Board
Could you provide the direct link of the website, from which you knew that it is the worst selling Shana? It does not matter if it is in Japanese. Thank you for the link.

[Senshigeia]

I don't know why it is the worse selling SnS... really, for me it's the best so far!

Well, I was expecting more Yuji x Shana but this episode was excellent the same! So, it looks like they are returning to Misaki city, I am so looking forward for the next episode...

And it's good to see they are covering up more Flame Hazes like Sale and Chiara. I'll miss Samuel and the God guy though, but it was necessary to keep the battle realistic. And may I comment how much better the animation is now!

[Key Board]

^
@Key Board
Could you provide the direct link of the website, from which you knew that it is the worst selling Shana? It does not matter if it is in Japanese. Thank you for the link.

http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=380999&show=0
http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=390457

http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/music/3914/1293278942/
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/music/3914/1295395600/

Previous Shana averaged at 4~5K
First season broke 10K

in comparison, this season is around 2K

In comparison Horizon is selling around 16K, Persona at 30K~, and Nisemonogatari will probably break 50K again

[SkyFlames]

IMO this works as a lesson to J.C. They left a 3 years gap between season two and three, which made them lose a lot of followers. I'm not quite concerned by the sells since it's the last season and there is no need to worry about something like having no funds to make a new one.

The episode was fine, I believe that Shana will start dropping down and gathering energy to explote at some further clash from now on. So far they cutted off the battle with Mammon and the final stand of CenterHill. But well, they even cut off the opening to give more air to the events, so I guess it can't be help.

Still a nice episode, Sydonay now seems a lot more powerfull than at previos seasons.

[Senshigeia]

IMO this works as a lesson to J.C. They left a 3 years gap between season two and three, which made them lose a lot of followers. I'm not quite concerned by the sells since it's the last season and there is no need to worry about something like having no funds to make a new one.

The episode was fine, I believe that Shana will start dropping down and gathering energy to explote at some further clash from now on. So far they cutted off the battle with Mammon and the final stand of CenterHill. But well, they even cut off the opening to give more air to the events, so I guess it can't be help.

Still a nice episode, Sydonay now seems a lot more powerfull than at previos seasons.

I remember watching season 1 and 2 in a row and when I finished I went crazy for more! And there I was, almost 2 years waiting and waiting for more SnS...
I am fine with less action but please keep the great plot! I saw Pheles in the preview!!!

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Ok can someone clarify with me why the 4 gods are concerned with Snake's plan?

So he stated that while Snake's plan will fix things up it doesn't stop the root of the problem which is in regards to the Crimson Denizens greed for PoE which may end up messing the balance again? And now that they have 3 worlds the damage could be multiplied?

Did I read this correctly?

In other words, regardless of how things work out the Flame Hazes may still be needed in the new world to maintain control.


And it's good to see they are covering up more Flame Hazes like Sale and Chiara. I'll miss Samuel and the God guy though, but it was necessary to keep the battle realistic. And may I comment how much better the animation is now!

Still a nice episode, Sydonay now seems a lot more powerfull than at previos seasons.

I dunno.

It's just ridiculous that here you have 3-4 of the strongest flame hazes fighting against Sydoney and they can't even scratch him. Hell the guy wasn't even sweating during the fight.

I mean given the previous fight that Sabracc easily held off 3 powerful flame hazes himself without breaking a sweat, why the hell has Snake not just send them all to wipe out the Flame Hazes in a fight? They have the numbers and 1 of his generals can easily match not just half a dozen of the strongest flame hazes but easily dispatch one of the 4 Gods of Earth.

Throughout the whole series we've met with powerful flame hazes but none of them could ever match any of the trinity or guys like Sabracc in a one on one or even 3 on one fight.

It's a miracle the flame hazes have even survived this far to begin with.

[Mad_Scientist]

Ok can someone clarify with me why the 4 gods are concerned with Snake's plan?

So he stated that while Snake's plan will fix things up it doesn't stop the root of the problem which is in regards to the Crimson Denizens greed for PoE which may end up messing the balance again? And now that they have 3 worlds the damage could be multiplied?

Did I read this correctly?

In other words, regardless of how things work out the Flame Hazes may still be needed in the new world to maintain control.


I don't think it's quite that. Afterall, that would be a reason for Flame Hazes to still exist, but not a reason for them to oppose the Snake's plan, because if he provides a world flowing with Power of Existence, the number of Denizens who would bother to consume humans would be drastically reduced. So even if there were still a few Denizens who would do so out of greed or just for fun, things would still be much better.

I think the problem he had with it, or part of it, was that if Denizens continued to eat Power of Existence, it might cause a cataclysm in the new world (which is seemingly going to have humans in it) thus killing all the humans there. Though I also think they are still a bit concerned about whether the Snake can manage this in the first place, I think their view is that even if he DOES succeed, it could just lead to a disaster for all the humans in the new world.


I dunno.

It's just ridiculous that here you have 3-4 of the strongest flame hazes fighting against Sydoney and they can't even scratch him. Hell the guy wasn't even sweating during the fight.

I mean given the previous fight that Sabracc easily held off 3 powerful flame hazes himself without breaking a sweat, why the hell has Snake not just send them all to wipe out the Flame Hazes in a fight? They have the numbers and 1 of his generals can easily match not just half a dozen of the strongest flame hazes but easily dispatch one of the 4 Gods of Earth.

Throughout the whole series we've met with powerful flame hazes but none of them could ever match any of the trinity or guys like Sabracc in a one on one or even 3 on one fight.

It's a miracle the flame hazes have even survived this far to begin with.

One thing to keep in mind is that the fights Sydonay had at the end of both the first and second season were apparently anime original, so they may not be a good way to judge his strength. Both his fights against Margery (during the incestuous twin arc and in Margery's flashback) were based on the Light Novels I believe, but unless my memory fails me, he did not have his special weapon with him in either case.

It's also possible that the return of the Snake has increased his power, as it seems the Snake has a special connection to the trinity members.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Ok can someone clarify with me why the 4 gods are concerned with Snake's plan?

So he stated that while Snake's plan will fix things up it doesn't stop the root of the problem which is in regards to the Crimson Denizens greed for PoE which may end up messing the balance again? And now that they have 3 worlds the damage could be multiplied?

Did I read this correctly?

In other words, regardless of how things work out the Flame Hazes may still be needed in the new world to maintain control.





I dunno.

It's just ridiculous that here you have 3-4 of the strongest flame hazes fighting against Sydoney and they can't even scratch him. Hell the guy wasn't even sweating during the fight.

I mean given the previous fight that Sabracc easily held off 3 powerful flame hazes himself without breaking a sweat, why the hell has Snake not just send them all to wipe out the Flame Hazes in a fight? They have the numbers and 1 of his generals can easily match not just half a dozen of the strongest flame hazes but easily dispatch one of the 4 Gods of Earth.

Throughout the whole series we've met with powerful flame hazes but none of them could ever match any of the trinity or guys like Sabracc in a one on one or even 3 on one fight.

It's a miracle the flame hazes have even survived this far to begin with.

Because the main point is not to annihilate the Flame Hazes. It's for Snake to return and complete his Creation.

BTW, Sydonay is....really really powerful.

[elleinad00]

wooo~! love this episode.....
still no ending song but oh well.. u/n is cute. :D

CHIARA YOU ARE SOOO~ CUTE!!! :hyper-^v^:
MARGERY!! you came back!! I missed her soo much. :hyper-^v^:

In one episode 2 great flame haze died........ :T_T:

Shana & co. going back to Misaki.. :eyebrow:

Oh yeah question: is this episode is part of vol. 20??

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Because the main point is not to annihilate the Flame Hazes. It's for Snake to return and complete his Creation.


Yeah they really drove that point home when they started massacring the retreating flame hazes like cattle.


BTW, Sydonay is....really really powerful.

More powerful than even alastor apparently. Nothing can harm him.

One thing to keep in mind is that the fights Sydonay had at the end of both the first and second season were apparently anime original, so they may not be a good way to judge his strength. Both his fights against Margery (during the incestuous twin arc and in Margery's flashback) were based on the Light Novels I believe, but unless my memory fails me, he did not have his special weapon with him in either case.

Even without Sydonay the other Crimson Denizens/lords demonstrated that they were more than capable of easily bringing down the other flame hazes. That lion easily brought down the Stone Golem with a single shout and Sabracc just went, "oh a stone golem" and then proceded to pwn him as well.

I'm sorry but to it's just so mind boggling.

It's like "OMG it's one of the Monster Gods!"

Other crimson Denizen, "Oh...it's him...well let's fight"

5 seconds later Flame Haze is dead and the Denizen hasn't even broken a sweat and has no scratches on him.

[Mad_Scientist]

Y

Even without Sydonay the other Crimson Denizens/lords demonstrated that they were more than capable of easily bringing down the other flame hazes. That lion easily brought down the Stone Golem with a single shout and Sabracc just went, "oh a stone golem" and then proceded to pwn him as well.

The lion temporarily brought down the Golem, but failed to defeat Khamshin. He ultimately died without killing anyone.

Sabrac had already shown himself to be exceptional. He still failed to kill anyone in that fight.

I'm sorry but to it's just so mind boggling.

It's like "OMG it's one of the Monster Gods!"

Other crimson Denizen, "Oh...it's him...well let's fight"

5 seconds later Flame Haze is dead and the Denizen hasn't even broken a sweat and has no scratches on him.

Umn, we never saw the whole fight between Sydonay and the god of earth.



Up to this point, we've seen multiple powerful named Denizens die, without a single named Flame Haze dying... not counting some deaths in the early skirmishes. So I'm not sure why you are getting the impression that the Flame Hazes are no match for them.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

The lion temporarily brought down the Golem, but failed to defeat Khamshin. He ultimately died without killing anyone.


Which he was about to but got distracted.


Sabrac had already shown himself to be exceptional. He still failed to kill anyone in that fight.

Which he also was about to but got distracted and committed suicide.


Umn, we never saw the whole fight between Sydonay and the god of earth.

Pretty sure he's dead. Plus the God of Earth pretty much figured if he fought Sydonay he was going to die.


Up to this point, we've seen multiple powerful named Denizens die, without a single named Flame Haze dying... not counting some deaths in the early skirmishes. So I'm not sure why you are getting the impression that the Flame Hazes are no match for them.

Because of plot and luck. In a straight on fight the Denizen would've come out on top.

I mean when you got 4-5 powerful flame hazes that can't even dent Sydonay you just wonder....:heh: And when the denizens died because they got distracted when they had the upper hand...

[Mad_Scientist]

Which he was about to but got distracted.



Which he also was about to but got distracted and committed suicide.

The ability to maintain focus is in battle is a part of someone's strength. Plus, Sabrac was hardly about to kill anyone at the time the Snake showed up, and while he let himself die, he was still defeated and taken out of the battle before his deatht. Also, though it wasn't explained fully in the anime, the only reason he was even alive after his first defeat was because of some technique of Bel Peol's. So Sabrac's record, even ignoring his suicide, is to be defeated twice and saved both times by Bel Peol.

Pretty sure he's dead. Plus the God of Earth pretty much figured if he fought Sydonay he was going to die.
The point is we didn't see the fight, so we have no way of knowing it was easy. Plus it was implied that Sydonay is possibly the strongest fighter in the trinity, and thus possibly the strongest member of Bal Masque period (not counting Snake/Yuji), so staying behind alone to fight him... of course he was going to die. Even if he managed to win against Sydonay, he wasn't going to make it off that battlefield alive.


Because of plot and luck. In a straight on fight the Denizen would've come out on top.
Because of "plot and luck" could apply to both sides.

I mean when you got 4-5 powerful flame hazes that can't even dent Sydonay you just wonder....:heh: And when the denizens died because they got distracted when they had the upper hand...

Sydonay is an unusual case, but they did hurt him, he just healed himself. It's never been clear just what limits he has to his recovery ability.

[~Yami~]

war is over
casualties :
Tomogara = RIP Sabrac, Fecor, and Decarabia (and also the rest of Bal Masque's guard)
Flame Haze = RIP Samuel Demantius and Centerhill (oh damn!!! I just started to love both of this strong men!!!! they will be missed)

I never imagine Sydonay is very strong.... He can become a chimera and then Hydra??? his battle in previous season doesn't really show off his true strength then...
Margery is back... now! our Flame Haze trio from first season and second season are completed!!! yeah!!

at last, Flame Haze now find their next battle... so the power of existence's flow might be unbalanced?? I believe Yuji already has solutions but he doesn't manage to announce it.... (maybe because of several reasons)

Chiara is cute... xD
and the next war, there will be three badass Flame Haze from Gods of Earth... looking forward to that

someone can explain Flame Haze's tactics??? sounds too complicated for me

[Key Board]

Sydonay is broken

Shana cut his body in half and that didn't even faze him a bit

[Ec1ge]

A decent 9/10

As a non-novel reader (due to me living in the US and not having access to all the novels), it saddens me that J.C. couldn't include why Samuel was forced into becoming a Flame Haze while he was dying [or even how he died in the first place "twice"] or even the backstories behind (in the previous episode) Sabrac's.

Other than that, it was nice to see the Flame Hazes escape, one of the Four Gods of Earth make a noble sacrifice :T_T:, Sydonay come back, Margery come back, the Tomogara's POV on the war, and even all the action in this episode.

One decent episode despite the fact that it left me wondering about the backstories about a good majority of characters and the full fight between CenterHill and Sydonay.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Yeah they really drove that point home when they started massacring the retreating flame hazes like cattle.



More powerful than even alastor apparently. Nothing can harm him.



Even without Sydonay the other Crimson Denizens/lords demonstrated that they were more than capable of easily bringing down the other flame hazes. That lion easily brought down the Stone Golem with a single shout and Sabracc just went, "oh a stone golem" and then proceded to pwn him as well.

I'm sorry but to it's just so mind boggling.

It's like "OMG it's one of the Monster Gods!"

Other crimson Denizen, "Oh...it's him...well let's fight"

5 seconds later Flame Haze is dead and the Denizen hasn't even broken a sweat and has no scratches on him.

Sydonay is not a mere Tomogara he's.....

Saying what he is is a spoiler that doesn't belong here. Suffice to say he isn't even a normal Lord.

Talking about him like you do other normal named characters is hugely inaccurate

No Alastor outclasses everything barring the Snake by a stupidly huge margin.


When I said the "point", I meant it from Snake's POV. What the Tomogara do to the Flame Hazes he really doesn't give two fucks. After all, his aim is to fulfil the Tomogaras' wish of a new world.

[ReverseReasoning]

I rate this episode a solid 10 out of 10. Simply because:

The plot was ongoing, engaging and literally heart stopping. The last time I felt this was their fight with Sabrac on the second season. It just reminds me that Shana is still one of my favorite Anime, the graphics and the fight scenes were so good and we finally got real action (which I felt was lacking on the past episodes)

I'm seriously considering Sydonay as a replacement for Sabrac. He finally stepped it up and showed that he truly deserved being the General. Hecate is truly lucky. Every character just improved, (especially Shana). Hoping for this quality episodes in the near weeks.

P.S.: Dear JC Staff, kill Rebecca and Khamsin already, they have bored me way too much and are annoying me on their weird and unexpected powerups. Thank you very much.

[Senshigeia]

Aww, I kind of like Khamsin and Rebecca... But anyway, despite what I read throughout the internet, Shana has always been one of my favourite series, but now it is blowing me away! Great character development, great plot, action, healthy romance...

I also pity, has a non novel reader, not knowing the back stories of some characters, like Margery, Wilhelmina, lil' Shana but specially Mathilde, Samuel, Sabrac and even Khamsin and Rebecca.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Sydonay is not a mere Tomogara he's.....

Saying what he is is a spoiler that doesn't belong here. Suffice to say he isn't even a normal Lord.

Talking about him like you do other normal named characters is hugely inaccurate

Never mind the fact he's not the only one but I'll just leave it at that. I would prefer the flame hazes to at least make the other guys sweat.


No Alastor outclasses everything barring the Snake by a stupidly huge margin.

Too bad Shana's attacks had zero effect on him and bringing Alastor into the field isn't something that can be done all the time.


When I said the "point", I meant it from Snake's POV. What the Tomogara do to the Flame Hazes he really doesn't give two fucks. After all, his aim is to fulfil the Tomogaras' wish of a new world.

And it was Yuji who broke their morale and said they don't have to fight anymore yet he's not doing anything to at least stem them back. I mean he does know that he's putting Shana in more danger no?

[alvinkhorfire]

IMO this works as a lesson to J.C. They left a 3 years gap between season two and three, which made them lose a lot of followers.
@SkyFlames
I agree with your point that J. C. Staff's decision has caused Shakugan no SHANA to lose its popularity. Then again, by putting a 3 years gap between Season 2 and 3, they can make the ending of the anime to coincide with the ending of the novel.

I am sure that we all remember the unnecessary fillers, such as the Konoe Fumina arc in Season 2. One reason for animating such fillers is that they were uncertain how the story would end at that time. By delaying Season 3 till now, J. C. Staff has a clear idea how the story ends. Hence, less fillers exist in Season 3, which is then more faithful to the novels. Again, this is my personal opinion, so correct me if I am wrong.

Sydonay is an unusual case, but they did hurt him, he just healed himself. It's never been clear just what limits he has to his recovery ability.
Okay, Sydonay morphed into 4-headed hydra. His 3 hydra head being destroyed by Shana's Crimson Red spell has no tangible effect on him. The same effect is shown with him losing his lower half of body through Shana's Blazing Flame much eariler.

[taichi-kun]

I thought chiara was fighting against Mammon, is he dead ?

Sydonay is really strong...

that god died.. I didn't even get why he decided to fight

[Mad_Scientist]

@SkyFlames
I agree wih your point that J. C. Staff's decision has caused Shakugan no SHANA to lose its popularity. Then again, by putting a 3 years gap between Season 2 and 3, they can make the ending of the anime to coincide with the ending of the novel.

I am sure that we all remember the unnecessary fillers, such as the Konoe Fumina arc in Season 2. One reason for animating such fillers is that they were uncertain how the story would end at that time. By delaying Season 3 till now, J. C. Staff has a clear idea how the story ends. Hence, less fillers exist in Season 3, which is then more faithful to the novels. Again, this is my personal opinion, so correct me if I am wrong.

I think you're pretty much correct. What choice did JC Staff really have? After the end of season 2, they had very little material from the novels they hadn't already adapted, aside from the stuff involving Yuji's ascension as Snake of the Festival. And that is not a plot thread they could have really started without knowing how it ends, not unless they wanted to go for an anime original ending (which I am glad they did not do.)

JC Staff made a lot of questionable decisions in their adaption, but waiting until the novels finish so that they can have the same ending is one decision I agree with.

[alvinkhorfire]

^
@Mad_Scientist
Yes, I support your point. We may not agree with all of J. C. Staff's decisions, but we are grateful that the anime ending is same as the novel ending. That is the most important matter, aside from the fact that the anime is more faithful to the novels.


It's just ridiculous that here you have 3-4 of the strongest flame hazes fighting against Sydoney and they can't even scratch him. Hell the guy wasn't even sweating during the fight.

Throughout the whole series we've met with powerful flame hazes but none of them could ever match any of the trinity or guys like Sabracc in a one on one or even 3 on one fight.

Shana and others are merely delaying time as they wait to be transported by Chiara and Sale, hence they are not attacking Sydonay at full strength. Sydonay himself pointed out that they are not really fiercely attacking him, as it should be. Another reasons for not attacking Sydonay at full strength is that they let time passes by, as to create the false impression among Bal Masque that Tendōkyū appears to have left the battle scene.

Of course, Shana and others can match Sydonay's strength, only if they work together. Still, I do not underestimate his strength. There is unofficial power level tier in this forum, stating that Sydonay is as strong as SoF Yuji, and is stronger than Shana.

_____

Is Sale Habichtsburg being contracted to 2 different Crimson Lords? I know that Chiara Toscana is being contracted to just a single Crimson Lord with two personalities.
I know that both of them are partners. However, their closeness with each other seems to suggest that they may be more than just partners.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Never mind the fact he's not the only one but I'll just leave it at that. I would prefer the flame hazes to at least make the other guys sweat.



Too bad Shana's attacks had zero effect on him and bringing Alastor into the field isn't something that can be done all the time.



And it was Yuji who broke their morale and said they don't have to fight anymore yet he's not doing anything to at least stem them back. I mean he does know that he's putting Shana in more danger no?

Yuji is basically focused entirely on his plan to care about sidetracks like that....call him a dick if you will, but it's just that.

"Zero effect on him" Who? Snake? Sydonay?

What's wrong with that? Both are supposed to be far more powerful than her. If they got scratched by her attacks that would be bad adaptation

[Cosmic Eagle]

^
@Mad_Scientist
Yes, I support your point. We may not agree with all of J. C. Staff's decisions, but we are grateful that the anime ending is same as the novel ending. That is the most important matter, aside from the fact that the anime is more faithful to the novels.



Shana and others are merely delaying time as they wait to be transported by Chiara and Sale, hence they are not attacking Sydonay at full strength. Sydonay himself pointed out that they are not really fiercely attacking him, as it should be. Another reasons for not attacking Sydonay at full strength is that they let time passes by, as to create the false impression among Bal Masque that Tendōkyū appears to have left the battle scene.

Of course, Shana and others can match Sydonay's strength, only if they work together. Still, I do not underestimate his strength. There is unofficial power level tier in this forum, stating that Sydonay is as strong as SoF Yuji, and is stronger than Shana.

_____

Is Sale Habichtsburg being contracted to 2 different Crimson Lords? I know that Chiara Toscana is being contracted to just a single Crimson Lord with two personalities.
I know that both of them are partners. However, their closeness with each other seems to suggest that they may be more than just partners.

Yeah, Sale and Chiara are virtually more than partners. No, only Chiara is contracted to the sister Zorya....Sale's Lord is Gizo.

[alvinkhorfire]

^
@Cosmic Eagle
Thanks for your informative answer as always. :D

According to Shana Wikia, his vessels are Länge and Saite, a pair of marionette control bars. Why does Gizo have 2 vessels?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Since you have two controllers for a marionette?

[HayashiTakara]

This is just rich, it's been confirmed that creating the new world would actually be beneficial. But they're going on the off-chance that there MIGHT be new human life in the new world and the denizens would prey on them... lol.

It seems to me that the flame hazes aren't even 100% sure of their decisions either. It's not very convincing when Shana has to tell herself that she's doing the right thing every episode.

[relentlessflame]

I think you're pretty much correct. What choice did JC Staff really have? After the end of season 2, they had very little material from the novels they hadn't already adapted, aside from the stuff involving Yuji's ascension as Snake of the Festival. And that is not a plot thread they could have really started without knowing how it ends, not unless they wanted to go for an anime original ending (which I am glad they did not do.)

JC Staff made a lot of questionable decisions in their adaption, but waiting until the novels finish so that they can have the same ending is one decision I agree with.The only thing I would say again is to keep in mind that J.C.Staff produces the animation (i.e. they mostly coordinate the sub-contractors to get the work done), but they're only one of the partners who actually produce the show. The decision on when to animate what doesn't rest with J.C.Staff alone, but with ASCII Media Works, Geneon, and all the other partners in the Production Committee. Often times, the director and scriptwriters don't even work for the animation production studio (they're often contractors hired by the production committee). So I think people shouldn't be so quick to either blame or praise J.C.Staff alone for any of these big production decisions; even if they had wanted to make a new anime sooner, they'd still have to get the approval (and financial support) of all the other companies involved; they don't own the property, so they can't make the big decisions on their own. J.C.Staff produces a lot of shows with a lot of different partners, and these don't have as much in common as people generally think they do.

That being said, I do like the trend of final seasons that bring the conclusion in alignment with the source material, though I wonder if that'll keep happening if the long delays mean that sales suffer. Then again, even with the lower sales, it's probably still a safer bet than some other random new property they could have tried.

[syke123]

Great episode, really looking forward to the group returning to Misaki, although if I were Margery I'd be a little sick of the city by now. Preview suggests they'll pay Chigusa a visit, hope she isn't too lonely, btw who exactly is her husband? I have a theory that he's probably going to be introduced as some powerful Tomogara later since it's a little sketchy that they'd give him a background of being away on business all the time. Anyways it's still the most intriguing show this season, and a tremendous change from the previous seasons. I applaud J.C staff for hiring the author, as I doubt it'd be this interesting without him.

[Mad_Scientist]

Great episode, really looking forward to the group returning to Misaki, although if I were Margery I'd be a little sick of the city by now. Preview suggests they'll pay Chigusa a visit, hope she isn't too lonely, btw who exactly is her husband? I have a theory that he's probably going to be introduced as some powerful Tomogara later since it's a little sketchy that they'd give him a background of being away on business all the time. Anyways it's still the most intriguing show this season, and a tremendous change from the previous seasons. I applaud J.C staff for hiring the author, as I doubt it'd be this interesting without him.

In season 2 Shana met Chigusa's husband (can't remember his name) and didn't sense anything odd about him, so I doubt he's some Crimson Lord or anything.

[alvinkhorfire]

@syke123 and Mad_Scientist
Kantarō Sakai is Chigusa Sakai's husband. Information from Shana's Wikia:
He usually resides outside Japan, but enjoys making sudden visits to the Sakai household, surprising his family. Despite his skinny figure, his athletic senses are good enough to retaliate a flying kick from Shana without a scratch, who was mistaken that he was an enemy (although this particular defense was just a lucky one). His tailing and investigation skills are first-class, so good that even Shana couldn't follow him. During on a plot to save Yuji from being destroyed by Wilhelmina in the novels, he tricks the latter with clever timed exchanges of borrowed mascot suits. He eats an astonishing amount of food, and his eating method is just as absurd.
Other than that, he is just a normal human, and should not be a Crimson Lord in disguise.

The decision on when to animate what doesn't rest with J.C.Staff alone, but with ASCII Media Works, Geneon, and all the other partners in the Production Committee.

@relentlessflame
Thank you for your information. Some of us, me included, have no idea that the anime production in Japan is very complicated, involving sub-contractors as well. We wrongly assumed that J.C.Staff is in charge of everything. Now that it is thoroughly explained, we should refer the anime producers as the Production Committee, who will encompass everyone from J.C.Staff, ASCII Media Works, Geneon and others. I definitely like the way how Production Committee produces Season 3 which is a more faithful adaptation of the novels.

[SkyFlames]

Sydonay does look much weaker in previous seasons (like when Margery almost killed him... twice) because he didn't have the Shitetsu Nyoi (his spear) which is undestructible, at the same time that it can get as large as he want and take the form that he desires. Yes, he had it back at ending of SnS II, but that was anime original so isn't really loyal to the novels.

Oh, and he can also lose arms, legs, even 1 side of his chest without dying, since he can regenerate it as simply as breathing.

[Nightengale]

Xanadu provides sustenance for survival, thus removing the need for consumption of human lives there. So theoretically, it satisfies everyone's most basic needs. No humans need to die, no more balance of the world at stake, no reason for 'main reason' Flame Hazes and Denizens fight.

In theory anyway.

I mean, if there's one thing this series has shown, it's that satisfying the base needs for survival alone won't satisfy everyone, especially since there's a lot of colourful characters in both sides who cares more for just their own lives.

I mean, Sabrac would probably never be satisfied with Xanadu, as a warrior.

I don't think it's quite that. Afterall, that would be a reason for Flame Hazes to still exist, but not a reason for them to oppose the Snake's plan, because if he provides a world flowing with Power of Existence, the number of Denizens who would bother to consume humans would be drastically reduced. So even if there were still a few Denizens who would do so out of greed or just for fun, things would still be much better.

I think the problem he had with it, or part of it, was that if Denizens continued to eat Power of Existence, it might cause a cataclysm in the new world (which is seemingly going to have humans in it) thus killing all the humans there. Though I also think they are still a bit concerned about whether the Snake can manage this in the first place, I think their view is that even if he DOES succeed, it could just lead to a disaster for all the humans in the new world.

Personally, I highly doubt Yuuji didn't take that into consideration. I'm suspecting he's doing what he did to Shana ( not revealing the Grand Order to her ) to the rest of Bal Masque as well while still hiding certain things.

I mean, the Denizens are overall... a pretty bloodthirsty bunch.

Imagine if during the Declaration, he told them "By the way, there are several terms and conditions that you have to obey in Xanadu. First, you must be kind to each other-"

[Marcus H.]

I think I understood why Sabrac chose to die at the presence of the Snake of the Festival.
Remember that he was the idol that caused Mare to seek power like a firefly approaching an oil lamp, and as he carried the regret of causing the death of someone he considers as precious, he found himself in the same shoes as Mare — engulfed by a force much greater than he can possibly attain.

It's a poor story between the two, actually.

As for the Xanadu, I'm pretty sure that there are certain compromises.
Like how Madoka Magica's "Rule Rewrite" event created new foes for the Puellae Magi, this new world would have new challenges for its inhabitants.

[Senshigeia]

I think I understood why Sabrac chose to die at the presence of the Snake of the Festival.
Remember that he was the idol that caused Mare to seek power like a firefly approaching an oil lamp, and as he carried the regret of causing the death of someone he considers as precious, he found himself in the same shoes as Mare — engulfed by a force much greater than he can possibly attain.

It's a poor story between the two, actually.

Also he was very powerful. I think it was the first time he felt fear, and like Marcus H. said so well, he felt like Mare should have felt. That reminds me, I have to re-watch the Mare episodes, from season II, because I have no idea of her mentioning Sabrac.

[jahern]

Even if Xanadu is created, and the denizens are happy there, some will still go into this world and take power of existence from here as before, if there are no flame hazes to stop them. Creating this new world is like a policy of appeasement, which didn't work before WW2. Xanadu will surely only make them crave power more, since they would be so used to it in their 'paradise' world anyway.

[Rising Dragon]

Hilariously enough, when going to a cousin's wedding yesterday, I passed a road labeled "Xanadu". >.>

[HayashiTakara]

Even if Xanadu is created, and the denizens are happy there, some will still go into this world and take power of existence from here as before, if there are no flame hazes to stop them. Creating this new world is like a policy of appeasement, which didn't work before WW2. Xanadu will surely only make them crave power more, since they would be so used to it in their 'paradise' world anyway.

Not exactly, do you think Yuji would even allow them free access in and out? The world is going to be built in a sealed dimension. If the SoF had trouble getting out, a bunch of peons isn't going to make it out.

[Chris38]

I have to say that was a pretty awesome episode, I especially enjoyed Sydonay's fight with Shana and Wilhelmina and how the Flame Haze have tricked the Bal Masque forces into believing that they escaped, while in reality, they actually stayed in that place.

Now, unto the things that disappointed me, a little bit - well I can't understand why the Flame Haze want to continue fighting, despite given quite a nice (while definitely not perfect, since I'm quite sure that Yuji's plan has some negative points, which will most likely be revealed in the next episode)...

So, while I'm quite aware of the fact that Yuji needs some opposition in realizing his plans for the next 10 episodes, but it doesn't change the fact that the Flame Haze's reason to continue fighting seems a bit forced to me... we will see if the next episode will change my opinion on that matter.

[Triple_R]

My view on Flame Hazes vs. Tomogara are that the two sides have been fighting each other for soooo long that it's become like the Hatfields vs. the McCoys writ large.

This is where I think Sophie, Shana, and the other Flame Hazes should really stop and ask themselves "Am I really making the right decision in choosing to fight against Snake of the Festival and the Tomogara? Am I doing this because it's the right thing to do, or am I doing this because fighting tomogara is now all I know, and I can't break the habit?"

OTOH, it's not as if the Tomogara are trying to enter into peace negotiations with the Flame Hazes. They mercilessly and relentlessly hunted down the desperately fleeing Flame Hazes, even when they had them badly beat. They came across as decidedly bloodthirsty. So, again, it's the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, for both sides.


Honestly, it's very hard to see how Snake of the Festival can be stopped. I mean, Sydonay now seems practically invincible, and Snake of the Festival would have to at least be on par with him. Then there's Hecate and Bel Peol. The impression I took from the first two seasons of Shana was that Shana, Wilhelmina, and Margery Daw were each close to even matches for each of Hecate, Sydonay, and Bel Peol, but that certainly doesn't appear to be the case any more. Unless Sophie has some grand trump card up her sleeve, her side of the war now seems hopelessly outmatched. That is a concern I have going forward (as an eight-episode curbstomp could get old fast) but I'm going to trust that the narrative will find a way to even the odds again.


The action scenes of Episode 15 were truly excellent, and I was impressed at how good a job the episode did in handling a large protagonist cast without it feeling like anybody was shafted screen time-wise or development-wise. Margery Daw's dramatic return couldn't have been executed any better, and that was loads of fun to watch. The pacing was also just about perfect.

However, there are certain chinks in the plot armor (mainly ones that I've already touched on) that I saw in this episode that I didn't see in the last, so I take off one mark to give Episode 15 9/10.

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that, RRR. It really sounds to me as if the flame haze are fighting because fighting the crimson lords is what they do. I'm still not sure why I'm supposed to think this plan Yuji stakes his existence to isn't the best thing for everybody.

[Reckoner]

Well like I said last episode as well, I see absolutely no reason to hold any stock in the flame haze's side of the story. They pretty much have a "don't rock the boat" mentality, and are afraid of change. Just seems like they have not seriously considered an alternative solution yet. Hopefully we'll get more of that next episode.

Anyways, another pretty good episode. It's quite unfortunate that JC staff ruined the last season so much. This could be so much better if they adapted it better from the get go. Personally I wish everything was like the movie, because that is still the pinnacle of this franchise for me.

Looking forward to more.

[Kristen]

Wow, the arc seems to finally be over? lol, only took 12 episodes.

Though I'm surprised that Margery didn't pack a huge wallop to everyone. I had personally predicted that she'd be the hidden key to turning the tide and her arrival would've signaled the end to the Tomogara. Ah well. :p

[Deathscyther]

Wow, I didn't expect this to be such a good episode. I'm honestly surprised. 9/10

Even though practically the whole protagonist cast had his/her time to shine, the episode didn't feel rushed at all. The pacing was great. I especially loved the last stand of Samuel and the speech of Centerhill. The animation seemed to be better than usual as well.

Sydonay is to be feared. He shows why he's the general of the army. His Shintetsu Nyoi makes him even stronger than he already seemed. Although Shana, Wilhelmina, Centerhill and Margery were just fighting to hold him back, he still took on the four of them without sustaining too much damage. I think it's safe to say that he's stronger than a fully powered Shana, probably (one of) the strongest flame haze at the moment, even after her power-up.

I wouldn't say that the first two seasons made him look weak though. There was always something stopping him from using his full power:

During both Margery's flashback and the Aizen arc he wasn't planning on sacrificing his life, so he wasn't giving his all. He quit both battles as soon as his clients were done for. It's just his 'hobby' after all. He wasn't completely focused during these battles as well, because he had to look after his clients. He didn't have his Shintetsu Nyoi with him in both cases as well.


In the final arc of season 1 both he and Margery had unlimited PoE and their battle would have never ended.


In the final arc of season 2 Sydonay uses his Shintetsu Nyoi for the first time and 1 hit ko's Margery. While fighting Shana and Wilhelmina he couldn't use his full power because that would damage the statue of pride.


My view on Flame Hazes vs. Tomogara are that the two sides have been fighting each other for soooo long that it's become like the Hatfields vs. the McCoys writ large.

OTOH, it's not as if the Tomogara are trying to enter into peace negotiations with the Flame Hazes. They mercilessly and relentlessly hunted down the desperately fleeing Flame Hazes, even when they had them badly beat. They came across as decidedly bloodthirsty. So, again, it's the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, for both sides.

I agree with you. It's like fighting each other is a part of their nature now.

If you look at the big picture, both sides have their own reasons for fighting the other side. The flame haze have the 'goal' to protect the balance of the world. They see the eating/creating of PoE as dangerous, because it could upset the balance, so they stop the tomogara from doing so.

While the tomogara are eating/creating PoE for their own reasons (Friagne in order to make Marianne a true existence; Tiriel in order to please Sorath; the trinity in order to free SnH; some probably for fun; etc) Flame haze stand in their way, so naturally the tomogara fight the flame hazes off in order to continue.

At one point though, it seems that hatred took over. A lot of flame haze/tomogara started fighting each other for the sole reason that the opponent is a tomogara or a flame haze (example: Margery killing every tomogara see meets, even the ones that aren't dangerous).



This is where I think Sophie, Shana, and the other Flame Hazes should really stop and ask themselves "Am I really making the right decision in choosing to fight against Snake of the Festival and the Tomogara? Am I doing this because it's the right thing to do, or am I doing this because fighting tomogara is now all I know, and I can't break the habit?"

I guess this is where Shana comes in. She's already past this stage. She already made her decision. Like Alastor explained to Yuji during their little fight in episode 13. When Shana formed her contract to be a flame haze, she said: 'The great cause flame haze follow that brings them to battle tomogara: to protect the world's balance. I'll view it myself and determine if it's true. No matter how much everyone loves me....no matter how much I love everyone....If I cannot agree with the great cause, I cannot follow it.'
Alastor even says so: 'this girl is my prized contactor who will walk the difficult path everyone else avoids.'

Shana's reason to fight isn't hatred or to kill tomogara. She wants to protect the balance. Until now she has only fought tomogara who were harmful to this balance and tomogara that attacked her or Yuji.

But if Yuji is able to save the humans (and the tomogara as well) in a way that wouldn't cause the balance in this world to crumble, then that would be fine. It would be great if humans wouldn't disappear anymore...it would be great if she didn't have to kill tomogara anymore. Centerhill even says that the storm in the rift, unstable PoE, as a counter measure against tomogara changing humans in PoE, will return to this world as well. In the end this world, and probably the rift as well, would benefit from Yuji's/SnH's plan. Shana acknowledges this, and so do the gods of the motherland. There is another problem though.

Since Yuji is making his new world in the rift between the worlds, it wouldn't have any effect in this world directly. But would the same hold true for the new world in the rift? There are no guaranties that everything will be fine over there. What will happen in Xanadu? What kind of rules will there be? Will the tomogara still eat/create PoE? Would it cause the balance over there to crumble?

In the end....this world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will all be part of a greater world. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. So protecting the balance of this world isn't enough. In order to truly protect the balance, all the worlds have to be save.

Since there are so many questionmarks and mysteries concerning Xanadu, Shana and the gods of the motherland decide to stop it from being created. Xanadu could become a paradise, but it could become a world full with problems as well. There are plenty of things that could go wrong over there. Not all tomogara will want to stop fighting, not all tomogara will be content with stopping to consume PoW. Some tomogara might rebel later on.

As Centerhill says: 'we will fight against the selfish mind creating a new, innocent world.' If it will be just another world which could contain problems, a world which could disrupt the balance of the 'greater world', it's just too risky to let it be created....even if they don't see Yuji's/SnH's plan as wrong.

I think that's the message that was conveyed by Centerhill. And Shana understood this right away. Now she'll have to decide the best course of action and get the others to back her up.

[alvinkhorfire]

There is one insert ED song, sung by Mami Kawada, that is played during the ED of this Episode. If I am not mistaken, it is titled 'u/n'. Is this song the third ED song of this season, after 'I'll Believe' and 'One'? Thanks for the information.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Of course, biggest plus of this ep:

They made Chiara as cute as she is in the novels.

Looking forward to see her and Sale in the future

[hyl]

Of course, biggest plus of this ep:

They made Chiara as cute as she is in the novels.

Looking forward to see her and Sale in the future

It also helps that she is voiced (by I think that sounds like) Kayano Ai.
edit: ANN says it's her

[Elf song]

Also he was very powerful. I think it was the first time he felt fear, and like Marcus H. said so well, he felt like Mare should have felt. That reminds me, I have to re-watch the Mare episodes, from season II, because I have no idea of her mentioning Sabrac.
She did mention him in Shakugan no Shana game for Nintendo DS, in her route. Can't believe she can defeat Tenmoku Ikko in that game (looking back at reality...:uhoh:)

RIP CenterHill and Samuel.

Not a critical spoiler but...in the novel, the scene where Chiara and Sale come and take the trio with them, the purplish thread(s) that grasps Shana's group is Sale's doing. He do send one of the thread to CenterHill too, but he cut it and choose to be left to stall Sydonay. And their last battle is omitted in the novel too.

The scene when Zirnitra says farewell to Samuel and the rain flows past the cup resembling his tears is very touching. Noble death, Samuel Demantius.

Waiting for other three Gods' appearance which should be really soon.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Samuel's death is one of the many tearjerkers in this series....

It's like something that could be said between lovers yet I think their bond is deeper than that

[HayashiTakara]

In the end....this world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will all be part of a greater world. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. So protecting the balance of this world isn't enough. In order to truly protect the balance, all the worlds have to be save.

Since there are so many questionmarks and mysteries concerning Xanadu, Shana and the gods of the motherland decide to stop it from being created. Xanadu could become a paradise, but it could become a world full with problems as well. There are plenty of things that could go wrong over there. Not all tomogara will want to stop fighting, not all tomogara will be content with stopping to consume PoW. Some tomogara might rebel later on.


Nope, it's been confirmed already that the new world will actually restore the current world. It's actually a GOOD thing. They're going off the assumption that Yuji will be creating human life in the new world as well and allowing the Denizens to ravage the inhabitants.

Now the flame hazes are going completely on assumptions, as they have no freaking clue as to what the SoF is going to create on the new world.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Shana hasn't convinced me that even she is sure of her choice with her constantly telling herself that she's doing the right thing over the last few episodes.

TBH, I was grinning when I saw the pan-out of the flame haze corpses, they haven't painted themselves in a good light, they're reasoning as a whole to fight was weak and petty, it's why their resolve broke so easily causing a mass panic.

[Deathscyther]

Nope, it's been confirmed already that the new world will actually restore the current world. It's actually a GOOD thing. They're going off the assumption that Yuji will be creating human life in the new world as well and allowing the Denizens to ravage the inhabitants.

Now the flame hazes are going completely on assumptions, as they have no freaking clue as to what the SoF is going to create on the new world.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Shana hasn't convinced me that even she is sure of her choice with her constantly telling herself that she's doing the right thing over the last few episodes.

TBH, I was grinning when I saw the pan-out of the flame haze corpses, they haven't painted themselves in a good light, they're reasoning as a whole to fight was weak and petty, it's why their resolve broke so easily causing a mass panic.

Yes, it's been confirmed (by Centerhill at least) that the creation of Xanadu will bring back the PoE that was consumed by the tomogara to this world and that the storm in the rift will die down. So the creation of Xanadu is a good thing indeed.

What Centerhill and Shana fear though is what happens after Xanadu is created. Virtually nothing is known about Xanadu. The only things they know is that Yuji said that it will be a copy of this world and that it would be a world specially for the tomogara. Since it will be a copy of this world, a world where the balance is in danger, wouldn't Xanadu face the same problems as this world? It will be a world made for tomogara, so this could mean that lots of PoE will be consumed/used. Wouldn't the balance over there be in danger this way?

This world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will be part of a 'greater world'. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. Creating Xanadu won't solve the problem. Xanadu would just become another world which could cause the balance of the 'greater world' to crumble. As Centerhill says: 'we will fight against the selfish mind creating a new, innocent world.' This is why Centerhill and Shana decide to stop Xanadu from being created...and this should be a good enough reason for all flame haze to fight, since they are fighting to protect the balance in the end. Now it's time for the other flame haze to make their choices.

I think Shana is 100% sure about her choice to stop Yuji's/SnH's plan. She doesn't seem to doubt her choice at all. She just isn't sure about how to stop this war, how to save Yuji and how to really solve the problem. Her goal is to make a path where she and Yuji can walk together (her Shana half), while protecting the balance (her flame haze half), after all.

[HayashiTakara]

Yes, it's been confirmed (by Centerhill at least) that the creation of Xanadu will bring back the PoE that was consumed by the tomogara to this world and that the storm in the rift will die down. So the creation of Xanadu is a good thing indeed.

What Centerhill and Shana fear though is what happens after Xanadu is created. Virtually nothing is known about Xanadu. The only things they know is that Yuji said that it will be a copy of this world and that it would be a world specially for the tomogara. Since it will be a copy of this world, a world where the balance is in danger, wouldn't Xanadu face the same problems as this world? It will be a world made for tomogara, so this could mean that lots of PoE will be consumed/used. Wouldn't the balance over there be in danger this way?

This world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will be part of a 'greater world'. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. Creating Xanadu won't solve the problem. Xanadu would just become another world which could cause the balance of the 'greater world' to crumble. As Centerhill says: 'we will fight against the selfish mind creating a new, innocent world.' This is why Centerhill and Shana decide to stop Xanadu from being created...and this should be a good enough reason for all flame haze to fight, since they are fighting to protect the balance in the end. Now it's time for the other flame haze to make their choices.

I think Shana is 100% sure about her choice to stop Yuji's/SnH's plan. She doesn't seem to doubt her choice at all. She just isn't sure about how to stop this war, how to save Yuji and how to really solve the problem. Her goal is to make a path where she and Yuji can walk together (her Shana half), while protecting the balance (her flame haze half), after all.

When you have to constantly reassure that you're doing the right thing means that you're not. Then again it could just be a flaw in the script.

There's too many "what ifs", going through with war on a "what if" is irresponsible and reckless. A positive "what if" is, what if the denizens end up building their own countries, cities, etc, living out their lives. But they're immediately jumping the gun on the most negative outcome. I don't think the SoF is capable of creating human life, if he did, then he can just make people to consume PoE for eternity, then that'll just be a moral issue.

[Mad_Scientist]

I don't think the SoF is capable of creating human life, if he did, then he can just make people to consume PoE for eternity, then that'll just be a moral issue.

He said Xanadu would be a complete copy of the world and would bear life. CenterHill also seemed to be concerned that Denizens would continue to eat humans in Xanadu. So I think humans will exist in the new world, though I'm not sure if they'll all be copies of the humans in the real world or something else.

That said, I don't think the Snake's plan is for the Denizens to just continue to eat humans in Xanadu, I believe Xanadu is supposed to provide Power of Existence without that being needed. But just because it is not needed doesn't mean it won't happen.

[Rising Dragon]

I doubt Yuji would've gone along with the plan if that were the case. Chances are the Power of Existence there will be tied with the Reiji Maigo and its Power-restorative capabilities.

[HayashiTakara]

He said Xanadu would be a complete copy of the world and would bear life. CenterHill also seemed to be concerned that Denizens would continue to eat humans in Xanadu. So I think humans will exist in the new world, though I'm not sure if they'll all be copies of the humans in the real world or something else.

That said, I don't think the Snake's plan is for the Denizens to just continue to eat humans in Xanadu, I believe Xanadu is supposed to provide Power of Existence without that being needed. But just because it is not needed doesn't mean it won't happen.

Well just because it'll bear life, doesn't mean there will be humans. If anything the world would be a perfect existence if humans didn't exist.

[Mad_Scientist]

Well just because it'll bear life, doesn't mean there will be humans. If anything the world would be a perfect existence if humans didn't exist.

Well, if I was just going by the Snake's words, I wouldn't be as confident. But CenterHill mentioned the possibility of the Denizens behaving in the new world as they have behaved in the old, and how that could bring about disaster. The only thing I could imagine him referring to by that is eating humans: what else could the Denizens do in the new world that would cause problems?

[HayashiTakara]

Well, if I was just going by the Snake's words, I wouldn't be as confident. But CenterHill mentioned the possibility of the Denizens behaving in the new world as they have behaved in the old, and how that could bring about disaster. The only thing I could imagine him referring to by that is eating humans: what else could the Denizens do in the new world that would cause problems?

Again he's going on assumptions, if this was a court hearing, he wouldn't be able to back it up. The "Sure this world would be saved, but what if so and so happen in the new world." is a very weak statement, I'm sorry only a child or radical would accept those words without question.

What I gathered from Flame Hazes as a whole (with very few exceptions) is that they're vindictive, self serving and very self righteous. I don't trust any of them.

[Mad_Scientist]

Again he's going on assumptions, if this was a court hearing, he wouldn't be able to back it up. The "Sure this world would be saved, but what if so and so happen in the new world." is a very weak statement, I'm sorry only a child or radical would accept those words without question.

What I gathered from Flame Hazes as a whole (with very few exceptions) is that they're vindictive, self serving and very self righteous. I don't trust any of them.

Come on now. The Snake said he would make a "complete copy" that would bear life, and CenterHill thinks the copy will have humans on it. Is that 100% certain? No. But it's not a ridiculous belief, as it does fit the Snake's words, so I think CenterHill is probably correct on this point.

It's not like the mere existence of humans in the new world would automatically make the Snake's plan bad anyways.

[Guido]

I think that for this episode the explanations were pretty much dense for me to understand even I have to go and rewatch for as many times deem necessary.

The rundown is that Centerhill along with the one of the Four Gods of the Motherland chose to interfere in the battle, because the would be creation of Xanadu by Serpent of the Ritual will entail the creation of a new world replenished with Power of Existence that once was consumed but will return into that world for Tomogara.
The gist is that Xanadu would become another sum of a world becoming part of an even greater world, and thus whatever catastrophe in Power of Existence affects Xanadu irrevocably would be affecting the balance of the rest of the Greater World: Guze + Earth + (Xanadu) + storm rift.

And, Centerhill clearly said that the Gods of the Motherland can only police the actions of whatever happens in the Earth, but not at the other side of the storm rift where Xanadu would be placed.
So, if the Tomogara go unchecked at Xanadu and do what they please with Power of Existence in that would be world of theirs, then there will be no stopping the universal balance of all the worlds from crumbling.

That said so, if I may add for best characterization of this arc, Samuel Demantius and Zinitra shared their last moments of companionship with epicness.

It was just to bad to witness the fall of a veteran hound, but Samuel exceeded his own expectations to save as many if not all the wounded Flame Hazes and buying time with his body and existence at the Tower.

Even if he only appeared just in this season and lasted for about more than 10 episode appearances, Samuel Demantius will always be remembered.

[erneiz_hyde]

And, Centerhill clearly said that the Gods of the Motherland can only police the actions of whatever happens in the Earth, but not at the other side of the storm rift where Xanadu would be placed.
So, if the Tomogara go unchecked at Xanadu and do what they please with Power of Existence in that would be world of theirs, then there will be no stopping the universal balance of all the worlds from crumbling.

If that scenario is possible, then Yuuji should've noticed this as well (he's always been depicted as witty and excel at sensing loopholes and such). We know that Yuuji is doing what he's doing, which implies this scenario as unlikely.

Also, I've been thinking whether if what Yuuji had in mind is something like the subversion of the "even if it looks the same, it's not the same" trope which was often used as a protagonist's reason to reject temptation-illusory attacks. Perhaps with this reasoning, Yuuji thought that even if the other world is an exact copy down to the existence of individual humans, they are ultimately of no importance to the original world.

But there's also the line of reasoning of "everyone and everything is a special, unique existence" which could put a grayer moral standpoint to the existence of humans of Xanadu (which would be the denizens livestock). It depends on what things Yuuji is putting his priorities in.

Of course, all this is assuming that the PoE in Xanadu will exist as humans or other living beings. Maybe The Snake could simply flood PoE to Xanadu until the very air is saturated by it.

Though, the ultimate question remains, where will the energy to create Xanadu comes from? As long as the answer to this question remains unclear, or unsatisfactory, there is still a solid reason for the Flame Hazes to oppose The Snake imo.

[Deathscyther]

If that scenario is possible, then Yuuji should've noticed this as well (he's always been depicted as witty and excel at sensing loopholes and such). We know that Yuuji is doing what he's doing, which implies this scenario as unlikely.

Also, I've been thinking whether if what Yuuji had in mind is something like the subversion of the "even if it looks the same, it's not the same" trope which was often used as a protagonist's reason to reject temptation-illusory attacks. Perhaps with this reasoning, Yuuji thought that even if the other world is an exact copy down to the existence of individual humans, they are ultimately of no importance to the original world.

But there's also the line of reasoning of "everyone and everything is a special, unique existence" which could put a grayer moral standpoint to the existence of humans of Xanadu (which would be the denizens livestock). It depends on what things Yuuji is putting his priorities in.

Of course, all this is assuming that the PoE in Xanadu will exist as humans or other living beings. Maybe The Snake could simply flood PoE to Xanadu until the very air is saturated by it.

Yuji/SnH said nothing about what will happen in Xanadu. Will humans exist there? Who knows. Since it will be a copy of this world, it's possible.

I too think that Yuji won't let the tomogara do what they want in Xanadu though, since he really hates the idea of humans disappearing and being forgotten. It's one of the reasons he started this plan in the first place. He's smart and has the god of creation working with him, so he has probably thought of a way to avoid this scenario.

But since the flame haze don't know Yuji personally and since he's working with the leader of the tomogara, who would believe him if he says that this won't happen. Even if Shana would believe him, she wouldn't be able to convince the other flame haze of this.

Though, the ultimate question remains, where will the energy to create Xanadu comes from? As long as the answer to this question remains unclear, or unsatisfactory, there is still a solid reason for the Flame Hazes to oppose The Snake imo.

I agree. I know for sure that Yuji won't sacrifice humans for his plan, so he has to other way to do it. Maybe SnH's original body has enough PoE for the plan to work, maybe he'll use the Reiji Maigo in some way or maybe Hecate's 'unlimited' pool of PoE will be used. Maybe there's something in Misaki City (it being the maelstrom of warfare and all), since they're going there now.

But from the flame haze point of view....since they don't know how he's going to pull it off, they'll have to try and stop him. The real body of SnH entering this world already had an effect on the world, so who knows what will happen when he'll actually use his power.

All in all, there are still more than enough reasons for the flame haze to fight.

[klare]

one of the "4 gods" ended just like that, without even being showed how he die...

anyway, welcome back Margery

[HayashiTakara]

Yuji/SnH said nothing about what will happen in Xanadu. Will humans exist there? Who knows. Since it will be a copy of this world, it's possible.

I too think that Yuji won't let the tomogara do what they want in Xanadu though, since he really hates the idea of humans disappearing and being forgotten. It's one of the reasons he started this plan in the first place. He's smart and has the god of creation working with him, so he has probably thought of a way to avoid this scenario.

But since the flame haze don't know Yuji personally and since he's working with the leader of the tomogara, who would believe him if he says that this won't happen. Even if Shana would believe him, she wouldn't be able to convince the other flame haze of this.



I agree. I know for sure that Yuji won't sacrifice humans for his plan, so he has to other way to do it. Maybe SnH's original body has enough PoE for the plan to work, maybe he'll use the Reiji Maigo in some way or maybe Hecate's 'unlimited' pool of PoE will be used. Maybe there's something in Misaki City (it being the maelstrom of warfare and all), since they're going there now.

But from the flame haze point of view....since they don't know how he's going to pull it off, they'll have to try and stop him. The real body of SnH entering this world already had an effect on the world, so who knows what will happen when he'll actually use his power.

All in all, there are still more than enough reasons for the flame haze to fight.

Whatever happened to settling things peacefully? I'm 100% certain considering Yuji's personality, he would like nothing more than to do so. If they'd simply ask Yuji about the details, there wouldn't be so many unnecessary deaths. But you know them flame hazes, shot first and never talk (except to insult).

[Mad_Scientist]

Whatever happened to settling things peacefully? I'm 100% certain considering Yuji's personality, he would like nothing more than to do so. If they'd simply ask Yuji about the details, there wouldn't be so many unnecessary deaths. But you know them flame hazes, shot first and never talk (except to insult).

Be fair to the Flame Hazes now, Yuji didn't exactly try and talk things out with the them either. He was planning assaults on their bases early on, and waited to proclaim the details of the Grand Order till after many battles had been fought. Even with Shana, he just said things like "I'm going to change your destiny and protect you!" without actually telling her how he planned to do that. And when he finally did proclaim the Grand Order, his Denizens continued to attack the panicked Flame Hazes.

Now, the implication the anime has given is that this was NOT what happened when the Snake was first sealed 3,000 years ago. There were at least two references to "the hunters the Snake invited" sealing him, or something like that. So I got the impression that 3,000 years ago the Snake tried to do things peacefully and it backfired badly for him. So I understand why he (and Yuji as a result) would decide to take the violent route this time. Still, it kind of sucks for the Flame Hazes of today to suffer for something ancient Flame Hazes did 3,000 years ago.

[Deathscyther]

Whatever happened to settling things peacefully? I'm 100% certain considering Yuji's personality, he would like nothing more than to do so. If they'd simply ask Yuji about the details, there wouldn't be so many unnecessary deaths. But you know them flame hazes, shot first and never talk (except to insult).

Even if the flame haze had asked Yuji about the details, I don't think it would have changed much. Just like now some would have been shocked at first, but after thinking about it more they'd probably have come to the same conclusion. Since protecting the balance is the mission of a flame haze, they'd have fought to protect the balance of the 'greater world'.

Yuji probably anticipated this and took action. Fighting the flame haze was probably inevitable. In order to make his dream come true, he had to do it this way.

[HayashiTakara]

Even if the flame haze had asked Yuji about the details, I don't think it would have changed much. Just like now some would have been shocked at first, but after thinking about it more they'd probably have come to the same conclusion. Since protecting the balance is the mission of a flame haze, they'd have fought to protect the balance of the 'greater world'.

Yuji probably anticipated this and took action. Fighting the flame haze was probably inevitable. In order to make his dream come true, he had to do it this way.

We don't even know what the full details of Xanadu. The only thing we do know, is that it'll restore the current world. Everything else is mere assumptions. Pointing a weapon at someone due to a "what if" just makes you look bad.

It's like someone killing your dog because they're afraid of the possibility of your dog biting them.

[Mad_Scientist]

We don't even know what the full details of Xanadu. The only thing we do know, is that it'll restore the current world. Everything else is mere assumptions. Pointing a weapon at someone due to a "what if" just makes you look bad.

It's like someone killing your dog because they're afraid of the possibility of your dog biting them.

You seem to be forgetting that Yuji has already been waging war on the Flame Hazes. It's not like he came to them and said "I have a plan to fix the world" and they responded with "DIE!"

Also, it restoring the current world is an assumption as well. Did you forget that the only one who said anything about something like that happening was CenterHill... the same person who believes that the Snake's plan will ultimately lead to disaster?

Yuji has been waging war against the Flame Hazes, and has not been very forthcoming with what he plans to do. Even now, he's not very specific about some aspects of his plan. He may have good reasons to behave like this. But regardless, this conflict is not some simple, black and white conflict where the Snake is obviously good in every way and all the Flame Hazes are all evil or stupid.

[HayashiTakara]

You seem to be forgetting that Yuji has already been waging war on the Flame Hazes. It's not like he came to them and said "I have a plan to fix the world" and they responded with "DIE!"

Also, it restoring the current world is an assumption as well. Did you forget that the only one who said anything about something like that happening was CenterHill... the same person who believes that the Snake's plan will ultimately lead to disaster?

Yuji has been waging war against the Flame Hazes, and has not been very forthcoming with what he plans to do. Even now, he's not very specific about some aspects of his plan. He may have good reasons to behave like this. But regardless, this conflict is not some simple, black and white conflict where the Snake is obviously good in every way and all the Flame Hazes are all evil or stupid.

Of course there's a gray area in any conflict, but the creation of Xanadu is sound because of it's location. Yuji/SnH claimed it to be so, and CH confirmed it. He used the "maybe they'll wreck havoc on the new world the way they did this world." to bait Shana and the others into fighting.

[Mad_Scientist]

Of course there's a gray area in any conflict, but the creation of Xanadu is sound because of it's location. Yuji/SnH claimed it to be so, and CH confirmed it. He used the "maybe they'll wreck havoc on the new world the way they did this world." to bait Shana and the others into fighting.

CenterHill gave no indication that he was evil, petty, or ruled by hatred. Not in any of his interactions with other Flame Hazes, and not when he sacrificed his life. If he says he has concerns about the new world, then I feel his concerns are things he truly believes. He may be wrong, but at the very least he is honest in his beliefs.

At least that's the impression I got.

[Deathscyther]

We don't even know what the full details of Xanadu. The only thing we do know, is that it'll restore the current world. Everything else is mere assumptions. Pointing a weapon at someone due to a "what if" just makes you look bad.

It's like someone killing your dog because they're afraid of the possibility of your dog biting them.

I don't really agree here. I find it logical for the flame haze to fight.

Indeed, nobody knows what will happen in Xanadu. Yuji only said that it will be a world for the tomogara and that it will be a copy of this world. So this means that it is highly likely that the same thing what's happening in this world (tomogara eating humans resulting in the balance crumbling) will happen over there as well. Yuji/SnH said nothing to deny this. So the flame haze have to take this into consideration.

Since every world is connected, if something were to wrong over there, in time it would become problem of this world as well. Yuji's/SnH's plan won't solve the overal problem. The balance of the 'greater world' would still be at risk, just as it is now. The problem would just be shifted to another world. Since Yuji/SnH said nothing about this matter, even when he tried to make the flame haze stop fighting in episode 14, it seems to me that he has no answer/solution for this. I think he would have said something about this otherwise.

In the end the flame haze (well in this case Centerhill and Shana) decided not to risk it. There are still things that could go wrong when creating Xanadu, even though Yuji/SnH says it won't go wrong. So why risk the destruction of the world, why create a new world if the overal problem won't be solved. There are just more reasons to fight than reasons not to fight, I guess.

[Key Board]

Remember, that Yuji didn't propose a ceasefire after the speech. He just told them that their duty is over (and they should just shut up and die)

He's just as guilty of letting the conflict drag on

Though to be frank, I think the denizens would keep on attacking anyway.
They have too much bad blood with flame hazes.

But I agree that Flame Hazes not asking about the details are strange

In fact. it doesn't make sense. If they hate denizens so much and have every reason to doubt them,
why would they take Snake's words at face value and scatter like cockroaches?

If Iran said they discovered nuclear fusion and thus, ending the world's energy problem would the US take it at face value?

[SkyFlames]

But I agree that Flame Hazes not asking about the details are strange

In fact. it doesn't make sense. If they hate denizens so much and have every reason to doubt them,
why would they take Snake's words at face value and scatter like cockroaches?

If Iran said they discovered nuclear fusion and thus, ending the world's energy problem would the US take it at face value?

The Snake prooved that the construction of Xanadu would not harm the other worlds since it didn't when he made the Path of Pilgrimage. I rather think that the failure was François and Sophie's fault, the first one for going crazy in front of their defeated troops when he is the general's right arm, and the second one for not answering anything but "don't listen" at the Snake's word. She should have shouted out the multiple failures on the enemy's plan, like which was going to be the energy source.

[Deathscyther]

Remember, that Yuji didn't propose a ceasefire after the speech. He just told them that their duty is over (and they should just shut up and die)

He's just as guilty of letting the conflict drag on

Though to be frank, I think the denizens would keep on attacking anyway.
They have too much bad blood with flame hazes.

Yuji's the leader of the tomogara (who probably want to fight the flame haze) and he probably fears that the flame haze will try to stop him again if he doesn't push through now. He knows his speech/bluff won't stop the flame haze alltogether, so he'll try to weaken them as much as possible before putting his big plan into motion.

Even if Yuji hates fighting, he'll do whatever it takes to reach his goal, since in his eyes everyone will benefit from his plan in the end. The end justifies the means.

But I agree that Flame Hazes not asking about the details are strange

In fact. it doesn't make sense. If they hate denizens so much and have every reason to doubt them,
why would they take Snake's words at face value and scatter like cockroaches?

If Iran said they discovered nuclear fusion and thus, ending the world's energy problem would the US take it at face value?

The Snake prooved that the construction of Xanadu would not harm the other worlds since it didn't when he made the Path of Pilgrimage. I rather think that the failure was François and Sophie's fault, the first one for going crazy in front of their defeated troops when he is the general's right arm, and the second one for not answering anything but "don't listen" at the Snake's word. She should have shouted out the multiple failures on the enemy's plan, like which was going to be the energy source.

I agree that the reaction of the flame haze was kind of exaggerated. I can believe some of them flipping out, but nearly all of them...? Shock after hearing what Yuji said is expected, but they should've calmed down and thought about the matter more before making their conclusions.

SnH didn't really proof anything though. The Path of Pilgrimage and Xanadu are creations of completely different scales. He had also resorted to kidnapping the strongest flame haze in order to weaken the flame haze (they don't know that he did this in order to get Shana out of harms way as well). Lastly, the real body of SnH already had quite the effect on the world (mistquake?)

All in all, they should never have taken his words at face value.

[Hooves]

After seeing the body of the God of Creation. As well as seeing François losing his sanity, while also retreating from a bloody defeat. You would expect morale from "all" members to be low but the main command. Any normal Flame Haze would lose hope after seeing such a sight before their very own eyes. While Yuji's words promised a world where PoE would flow endlessly (source currently unknown).

Then, when the rout started. The people who tried to keep a sane mind couldn't keep it anymore, especially after seeing the rest of their comrades scatter. These reasons can contribute to "everyone" scattering besides the leaders. The thought of no more wars can gnaw at anyone's mind during a huge battle.

Even if Xanadu wasn't fully explained. It still had quite the effect.