Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[monir]

Of course I could be misunderstanding something here.

You are! :D

[Shikijin]

no it means "can't died"Anyway, EDICT says it also means "undead". Which was very fitting in Kizu, considered it was about vampires.

[zarqu]

You are! :D
Well I guess it's OK then! :p

[frubam]

Karen/Araragi didn't tickle my fancy as much as Araragi does with other chars, but I gotta admit, that toothbrush scene turned me on(yeah, I said it :D). And I don't mean in the same hentai-fap fanservice-y sense either, I mean I could vividly feel the emotions and intimacy whirling between Karen and Araragi. In today's anime, you rarely get a scene like this without the show having to turn it into some ecchi fanservice crap.

Well, you could argue that it WAS fanservice, but I disagree. I consider fanservice to be a blatant attempt by one or more characters to showcase themselves in 'ecchi' situations. I did not get that feeling here at all. Neither Koyomi nor Karen knew what they were getting into, and that whole scene details how rational/logical thought can very easily be thrown out the window during strong emotional moments(e.g. lust). It really is quite ingenious =03.

[monir]

Well I guess it's OK then! :p
Excellent. :)

I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?

http://s16.postimage.org/3lktkficx/Nisemonogatari_03.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/3lktkficx/)

It happened right after Koyomi discovered Karen with skirt. I would be very delighted to read an answer that can make sense.

[sirn]

Please, please, please stop referring EDICT when doing translations. While it has some newer words or some slang often seen in anime/manga, it got a lot wrong (or wrong without context). Here's translations from Progressive:

ふし【不死】
〔不滅〕immortality; 〔永生〕eternal life
派生語 不死の｜immortal; imperishable

ふじみ【不死身】
Ⅰ. 〔体の〕
派生語 不死身の｜〔死なない〕immortal; 〔傷つかない〕invulnerable
神は不死身だ｜God is immortal. / God lives forever.
Ⅱ. 〔精神がくじけないこと〕
派生語 不死身の｜｟文語｠ indomitable; unyielding
不死身の精神｜an indomitable spirit

and from Daijisen:

ふ‐し【不死】
いつまでも死なないこと。「不老—」

ふじ‐み【不死身・不仁身】
〘名•形動〙

不死であること。どんな病気•苦痛•傷•打撃にも耐えうるからだであること。また、そのからだやそのさま。 「—な（の）勇士」

どんな困難にもくじけないこと。また、その人やさま。「—な（の）精神」

which is definitely not "undead" (as in, zombies) but rather "can't die".

[zarqu]

My take was that this entire toothbrush game was meant to be viewed through barely-parted fingers.
Well, who knows. When I viewed the scene, I tried to think what was going on inside Koyomi's/Karen's head. Are they in it for real? Do they both want it? Etc. I never thought of it as an exercise primarily in humour. Maybe I'm just too interested (perhaps unhealthily so) in the characters' thoughts and motivations to have a laugh with it.

It's the kind of thing you play for Malcolm MacDowell as you squeeze a dropper of fluid onto his pried-open eyes.
Strangely enough, I just watched A Clockwork Orange (for the Nth) time this morning. It must've been The Thieving Magpie that led me to it again :heh: In a sense, it's a perfect scene to condition someone (with purist morals, at least) against anything sexually deviant. Malcolm McDowell is one sexy beast in that movie, I might add.


I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?
Karen wearing a skirt is just as weird as a pole wearing one etc. A skirt on Karen looks just as misplaced as a skirt on a pole would. Given that Koyomi later wonders "Who is this pretty girl?", I'm led to believe that he hasn't seen Karen in a skirt... for a while at least.

It's to represent the fact that the skirt seems too small for a girl as tall as her. And we confirmed that it wasn't hers later; she borrowed it from the other sister.
That works too :D

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?

http://s16.postimage.org/3lktkficx/Nisemonogatari_03.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/3lktkficx/)

It happened right after Koyomi discovered Karen with skirt. I would be very delighted to read an answer that can make sense.

It's to represent the fact that the skirt seems too small for a girl as tall as her. And we confirmed that it wasn't hers later; she borrowed it from the other sister.
Remember that she is taller than Araragi. Tall girls get teased in school somewhat. A Fujoshi explained to me that girls have an ideal height, and that they adjust accordingly using heels. One complaint about being too tall is that then they couldn't wear Heels.

I fail to see how body height can influence footwear options. But I guess I will never understand it as a man.

[Hiro Hayase]

After reading the comments it seems like the incest part made some people uncomfortable. It's like a cultural shock for some I guess. The incest theme is commonly found in Japanese literature and has been around for centuries.

For LN readers, it isn't much of a surprise, compared the anime only viewer. I personally prefer faithful adaptions than the anime studio conducting their own experiments with the anime.

The episode is probably more acceptable to a Japanese audience or someone familiar with Japanese customs, than an American or Western audience.

[blakstealth]

I am so fucked up right now. I think I've lost it.

[Tempest35]

I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?

http://s16.postimage.org/3lktkficx/Nisemonogatari_03.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/3lktkficx/)

It happened right after Koyomi discovered Karen with skirt. I would be very delighted to read an answer that can make sense.

I agree with zargu. :)

To Koyomi, Karen w/skirt = Telephone Pole w/skirt. His own personal WTF 0.0 moment, if you will. He looks up to see his taller imouto who's always worn sweats and the like for casual clothes suddenly appears before him wearing actual feminine clothes... He might as well have looked up to see a random pole with a skirt :eyespin:
:D Guess he's always pegged tomboy Karen to burn skirts if ever presented with one, but now...not so much. She's adorable in a skirt.

Doesn't help that Karen's a big (ie. tall) girl either...or she's athletic like a beast... >.> (personal fets :heh: )

[Reckoner]

Well, you could argue that it WAS fanservice, but I disagree. I consider fanservice to be a blatant attempt by one or more characters to showcase themselves in 'ecchi' situations. I did not get that feeling here at all. Neither Koyomi nor Karen knew what they were getting into, and that whole scene details how rational/logical thought can very easily be thrown out the window during strong emotional moments(e.g. lust). It really is quite ingenious =03.

No no no. The definition of fan service is not that, it really is what the phrase looks like. Specific service for the fans put in by the creator. This isn't limited to sexual things but in modern anime it's the most commonly seen and recognized version of it.

To me it is obvious what the intents of this scene were by both Nisio and Shinbo's grotesque over expansion of it.

After reading the comments it seems like the incest part made some people uncomfortable. It's like a cultural shock for some I guess. The incest theme is commonly found in Japanese literature and has been around for centuries.

The episode is probably more acceptable to a Japanese audience or someone familiar with Japanese customs, than an American or Western one. I personally prefer faithful adaptions than the anime studio doing their conducting experiments with the anime.

I really wish people would stop mis characterizing arguments here.

First of all Japan is not the only society with incest as a theme in their literature historically. European monarchs practically practiced various forms of incestuous relations for centuries.

Also while in Japan they are more comfortable with things like cousin to cousin marriage, I dare you to try and go marry your sister in Japan and announce it to the public. If you believe otherwise, good luck.

Most importantly though, why do you think everyone who is not happy with this episode is like some social prude who is outraged on the attack of morality or something :heh:?

Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was. It took up the entire episode . The fact that I find such a feitsh stupid, not offensive really but stupid, is merely a side note to the bigger picture here. When you take one scene that did almost nothing for the story as a whole, and suck up an entire episode out of it (This is an 11 episode series? Now it's practically 10 with some fanservice OVA tucked in it), then I'm going to raise issues with it when Nise has already had glacial pacing issues.

[Malkuth]

She seems to be a roadrunner rather than a phoenix :heh:.

technically they are both bird ;)

[Shikijin]

I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?Karen usually wears tracksuits because she says skirts make her legs look too long.
Please, please, please stop referring EDICT when doing translations. While it has some newer words or some slang often seen in anime/manga, it got a lot wrong (or wrong without context).Ok, I checked the undead page in wikipedia.

ファンタジーを題材とするテーブルトークRPGやコンピュータゲームでは代表的なモンスターとして定着して おり、「アンデッド・モンスター」か単に「アンデッド」と呼ばれ、日本語では「不死の怪物」や「不死者」な どという訳もよく使われている。しかし、本来の意味からすれば、「不死」=「死なない」というよりは「死に ぞこない」というべきであり、正しい意味での不死者はイモータルと言う。それ以外の日本語表記では、「亡者 」や「死霊」などがある。

It says that while 不死 properly means immortal, it is often used even for undeads.

Also found something else interesting in that page. ノーライフキング. From the novel of Itou Seikou, ノーライフキング is the ultimate vampire. The term was invented because he feared "lich" was copyrighted. One of the title of Kissshot, King of Kaii, in furigana was exactly this "No Life King". I thought it was just Engrish, but it appears it was not the case. (btw, King of Kaii in furigana was also "King of Outsider" sometimes).

[Hiro Hayase]

No no no. The definition of fan service is not that, it really is what the phrase looks like. Specific service for the fans put in by the creator. This isn't limited to sexual things but in modern anime it's the most commonly seen and recognized version of it.

To me it is obvious what the intents of this scene were by both Nisio and Shinbo's grotesque over expansion of it.



I really wish people would stop mis characterizing arguments here.

First of all Japan is not the only society with incest as a theme in their literature historically. European monarchs practically practiced various forms of incestuous relations for centuries.

Also while in Japan they are more comfortable with things like cousin to cousin marriage, I dare you to try and go marry your sister in Japan and announce it to the public. If you believe otherwise, good luck.

Most importantly though, why do you think everyone who is not happy with this episode is like some social prude who is outraged on the attack of morality or something :heh:?

Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was. It took up the entire episode . The fact that I find such a feitsh stupid, not offensive really but stupid, is merely a side note to the bigger picture here. When you take one scene that did almost nothing for the story as a whole, and suck up an entire episode out of it (This is an 11 episode series? Now it's practically 10 with some fanservice OVA tucked in it), then I'm going to raise issues with it when Nise has already had glacial pacing issues.

Very true, I completely forgot about Europe there lol. Although, some people do see it as a sort of cultural shock, but maybe not here, well other forums. They are literally writing walls of text how incest is bad and etc.

Well I don't consider this episode that much of fanservice, since it does have relevance and has purpose in the LN. But how they execute it is another story for the future.

Kanbaru Suruga has said quite a few times that she's worried that the relationship between Koyomi and Karen is too close, and that it might take a wrong turn somewhere.

But I have to add that works that provoke controversy ( or strong feelings) is good thing. That's the same with art. Art is anything that you can getaway with. That's my definition of art.


P.S. I thought it would have 15 episodes like Bakemonogatari.

[sirn]

ファンタジーを題材とするテーブルトークRPGやコンピュータゲームでは代表的なモンスターとして定着して おり、「アンデッド・モンスター」か単に「アンデッド」と呼ばれ、日本語では「不死の怪物」や「不死者」な どという訳もよく使われている。しかし、本来の意味からすれば、「不死」=「死なない」というよりは「死に ぞこない」というべきであり、正しい意味での不死者はイモータルと言う。それ以外の日本語表記では、「亡者 」や「死霊」などがある。
Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not, but I'll add. This part「しかし、本来の意味からすれば、「不死」=「死なない」というよりは「死にぞこない」というべき であり、正しい意味での不死者はイモータルと言う」state that the usage of undead for 不死 (死なない) is not by its original meaning but rather for「死にぞこない」and in its original meaning, 不死者 should equal to "Immortal".

[frubam]

No no no. The definition of fan service is not that, it really is what the phrase looks like. Specific service for the fans put in by the creator. This isn't limited to sexual things but in modern anime it's the most commonly seen and recognized version of it.

To me it is obvious what the intents of this scene were by both Nisio and Shinbo's grotesque over expansion of it.

Hmmm, I guess you're right. Still, I thought it was very fulfilling regarding how well it was done and the feelings(from myself, and Koyomi/Karen) that arisen from it =03.

[Shikijin]

Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not
I wrote this sentence below that paragraph:

It says that while 不死 properly means immortal, it is often used even for undeads.

In short it is as I say, it also means undead, as a word you use in fantasy stories to denote a certain kind of monster. It's not the original meaning and it's not etimologically correct, but it is used.

[omimon]

You are! :D

I have no idea what you are talking about. At the end Karen said it would be more fair if they switched sides. Both of them got a turn at cleaning the other's teeth.

They make out, yup, that's definitely what happened.

Also, it's very painful to watch fellow novel readers talk about the meaning of 不死 since they clearly know which version is being used.

[Proto]

Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was.

I thought the same, but instead of raging I'm laughing my ass off. Quality of life ++

[Ridwan]

It's finally here, and it met up to my expectations http://emos.plurk.com/6fcacdeb97b24a930d97fb02eb1370a5_w33_h17.gif

And now, to celebrate it, I'll post something relevant :

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

[leorodri100]

It's finally here, and it met up to my expectations http://emos.plurk.com/6fcacdeb97b24a930d97fb02eb1370a5_w33_h17.gif

And now, to celebrate it, I'll post something relevant :

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

sorry to pop ur bubble but that was already posted. its a toothbrush

[Ridwan]

sorry to pop ur bubble but that was already posted. its a toothbrush

Ah...

Too bad. Apologize then.

[00Coyote]

This episode was quite something.

Araragi finds himself in a compromising situation with a member of the female cast. Stock, standard setup for practically EVERY FREAKING SCENE in the Monogatari series, with a few exceptions. This time, he is having sex with his younger sister. But there lies the crux of the episode. They aren't having sex. Teeth are being lovingly cleaned. The sexual innuendo level is off the chart, but the only thing crossing the plane was a plastic toothbrush into the oral cavity, a very common, socially acceptable activity.

Reading through the comments here, and a random sampling of blogs over there, some love it, some hate it. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can't help but think the following when someone goes ballistic on how bad and horrible this episodes was:

"Someone didn't get the joke." I kinda feel bad for them. You can try to explain the joke, but even if you succeed they will never find it as funny as the person who got it.

But I got the joke, and it is terrible, horrible, implying that a brother and sister are mutually consenting to do sexual things, it is the most horrible thing ever. How can people like this crap? Araragi has given her a sponge bath in her underwear *gasp* He's brushed her teeth *scandalous* Will he be so depraved as to wash her hair next! That monster must be stopped! Wait, he's already washed a young girl's hair! Oh the humanity!!

Eh. Anime, fiction as a whole, is rife with genocide, betrayal, rape, incest, lying, stealing, whiny male protagonist, the whole rogues' gallery of human vice on parade for all to see. I view incest in a incredibly negative light. Given the absurd choice between murder and incest, I'd be selfish and go with murder. Even with that being said, I can't understand where this moral outrage is coming from. Never was it said or implied that this was correct behavior, nor was it suggested that you should rush out and brush your younger sister's teeth in a sexual way. This was black (pink?) comedy at its finest.

What I enjoyed most about this episode, beyond how amusingly silly it is, was the execution. SHAFT was destined to produce this series. The eccentricities of the SHAFT machine mesh perfectly with the worm gear of Nisio Isin. Its like the moment a autistic savant finds their specialty, what is produced should not be possible, but it is amazing.

This makes the outrage amusing to me. If this is offensive, how did they make it this far watching this series, produced by SHAFT, who do love their underage girl service? It's like going to a hockey game and being abhorred at the body checks and fighting. It should be very obvious what you are getting in to. Oh well, different strokes for different folks, its not like tastes and preferences have to be sane and logical.


Directly related to this episode, I found the following interesting.

Taken from http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemonogatari-karen-bee-authors-comments Make what you will of it.

It only occurred to me recently, but humans are creatures with many dimensions, so they inevitably end up entwined in many different interests. It’s a concept I find difficult to grasp: the person you see in yourself and the person others see in you can be completely different people. I can try to deny it, but it’s the truth.

And there isn’t just one version of you that other people have; indeed, you are a different person to different people.

So I can see why someone might go on a journey to find himself, asking, “Just who am I!?”

It would be simple just to call it being confused, but the fact that different sets of eyes process the same things differently is something that can’t be denied. What someone perceives as fake could be real to someone else, and what someone perceives as real could be fake to someone else. Though maybe it’s misguided to talk about such an objective measure in a subjective way like that.

How should I put it… it’s obvious that humans are creatures who change their behavior depending on the audience, so maybe the person who has the most correct view of yourself is yourself.

But does to know oneself mean to know just a part of yourself?

So I present to you the first volume of Nisemonogatari, the sequel to Bakemonogatari. The Araragi Sisters, who have been getting criticized for their absence since Bakemonogatari’s prequel Kizumonogatari have finally made their appearance as mains. Keep this a secret, but to tell you the truth, I had originally written this novel without any plans to publish it. I wrote the entire thing without showing it to anyone. I wanted to hide it away without even making a single printout. In other words, this novel was originally something I was going to keep to myself. So this novel was written 200% to fit my tastes. I very much enjoyed getting to write everything that came from my mind without any arbitrary restrictions.

Yes, there were times when I asked myself, “What the hell are you doing? You’re a professional!” But I think there’s a certain charm to approaching writing as if I were an amateur.

It was with that feeling that I wrote the “The 6th Story, Karen Bee,” Nisemonogatari Volume 1.

Oh, VOFAN provided the artwork. His drawing of Araragi Karen was so fantastic, as the author I have to thank him deeply.

I also thank you the readers for bearing with this novel filled with my dumb stories written without much care.

Well, cheerio! Let’s meet again soon in Nisemonogatari Volume 2, another sequel, featuring Araragi Tsukihi this time – that is, if I decide to publish it.

-Nisio IsinIn some ways, it's like a serial killer's manifesto. It doesn't justify the act, but it gives you a glimpse into the motives behind it.

[Klashikari]

I'm starting to be amazed how some comments basically distord a good deal of the complain.
While people mileage vary regarding their take about incest and whatnot, it isn't something you can force people to readily accept. Even so, it is -not- the core problem of the episode, at least to me.

Honestly, pretending the scene is innocent, by claiming it is just a game with toothbrush is really not an honest argument: the presentation and the themes are no brainer. Heck, those who enjoyed the scene themselves know perfectly the subverted genre and "mood" used here. It is by no means subtle whatsoever.
-everyone- knows damn well that toothbrushing isn't a crime and that no girl would get pregnant after that (hell, just imagine the birth rates! That would be Japan's best way to fight their declining population).
The major problem is how the innuendo are conducted in a fashion that makes the whole deal out of tracks and proportions.

Of course, it is not the first time we got a fanservice scene in the monogatari series, and surely won't be the last one (heck, I wouldn't be surprised if something "more outrageous" will show up, after that and things like Nadeko's snake).
That being said, you are off tracks here.

The consensus for the "unsatisfied party" with this episode is as follow: this episode -does not contribute to the main plot-, in a very dubious fashion to boot.
Not all scenes should, since you have your casual scenes and whatnot. However, we are talking about a -full- episode of a 11 episodes series. If you factor the context, there is no way everyone would be satisfied with this weird directing choice altogether.
The only "major" thing we learned in this episode is Karen's admiration for Suruga and... that's basically it. Which means that we could pretty well obliterate that episode from the series, and the continuity and plot wouldn't be hurt to the slightest, or at worst, just barely.

My personal opinion is that: I honestly laughed a bit how silly/exaggerated the scene was, but quickly gone baffled how long it took and how the premise took the whole episode. Yes, the toothbrushing scene is 3-4 minutes, but the leadup and the other points totalized -20 minutes-.
Really, the "incest" part is really not the worst part of it. I personally would react the same if it was any of the female character, perhaps a bit less with hitagi since it would be "less alienating" since she is Koyomi's girlfriend after all.

But seriously, it is starting to be quite annoying to see comments alienating people stance by false pretense of satirical outrage, while -several- traits of the episode made it quite questionable, in a directing perspective.
Fanservice by itself wouldn't cause so much ruckus, within different circumstances, so branding people as "how could they follow this series so far" is moot and impertinent.

[relentlessflame]

What I enjoyed most about this episode, beyond how amusingly silly it is, was the execution. SHAFT was destined to produce this series. The eccentricities of the SHAFT machine mesh perfectly with the worm gear of Nisio Isin. Its like the moment a autistic savant finds their specialty, what is produced should not be possible, but it is amazing.
Yeah, I think this basically encapsulates the whole thing for me. The theme of this episode was basically: excess. The original author took a simple but silly/crazy idea and just ran with it. The animation team took that same concept and simply let it play it out in its full absurd glory. They even gave it a full episode to let it play out, equivalent to the time allocation in the original work. And you watch it play out and you go "wow, now that's something I don't see everyday -- what the heck just happened?" And I think that was the point.

I think a lot of the criticism of this episode and the show is sort of more like "why are you doing this?" And I think the show's answer, for better or worse, is just basically "because we can". This isn't the show some people wanted it to be, but it's the show they set out to make. And I think some people feel confused and bewildered, and some other people feel maybe a bit betrayed. And I suppose it would be fair to say that we're being toyed with to a certain degree. This isn't like Bakemonogatari in a lot of ways, but at the same time it is. The whole thing is strange from beginning to end, and maybe some people can't decide if it's a "good strange" or a "bad strange". (Allusions to this episode's sub-theme notwithstanding? :heh: )

Now me, personally, I don't mind. I was thoroughly entertained by the excess and silliness, and I'm not worried at all about the episode count, how they'll fit in the rest of the story, or whatever. I'm sure they have something in mind. But, by the same token, I'm not going to try to say that this approach is beyond criticism. Heck, it invites criticism; I think that's the whole point of spending a whole episode on this! They're just putting it out there; here we are spending a whole episode on the sexual innuendo of teeth brushing with Karen at the beginning of Tsukihi's arc. Whaddya gonna do 'bout it? For me, I'm just going to laugh. Keep on being crazy, Nisemonogatari! :heh:


Edit: As an analogy, it reminds me of when a popular band that has a certain style decides all of a sudden to put out an album that has a totally different style or is really weird/experimental, and fans start complaining "what happened to this band? They used to be so good!" And someone asks the band about it, and they just say it's an album they wanted to make. It's the "because we can" principle. They know it might alienate some of their fans, but pleasing those fans wasn't why they did it in the first place. "To thine own self be true," as it were. From the commentary posted above, that seems to be the case here too.

[Archon_Wing]

If everything is subjected to criticism, then even criticism must be open to criticism. Who in his right mind would cut the much anticipated toothbrush scene? It was clearly not an option from the start. Just look at all the 10 this episode received, and think that in Japan is likely to be the same. Shaft knew what it was doing.

I agree, but "Deal with it" isn't really a productive criticism or conclusion of anything, and serves to not create any further understanding. It's merely a dismissive, and frankly, arrogant tone that shoudn't be used when you aren't properly responding to people. I criticize not what you say, but your manner of debate.

What you fail to understand is that you are not focusing on the argument and taking it out of context. Demi. had only labeled cutting out that as an option and that if it is to be kept, that the scene should not be immune to criticism.

In other words, whether or not Shaft knew what it was doing or how well it was doing does not effect what's being displayed on screen. Some of us don't care about how well it is adapted. If we say an episode is bad, then source is bad or adaptation is bad, it doesn't matter. I am not going to exempt every movie, anime and show and check out all their sources.

Viewers are unfair. Deal with it. I could have just posted that, but that wouldn't be productive would it? :)

If the criticism just comes down to "Oh no, this episode is about sexual themes, if I like it they might mistake me for an otaku" then I can just shake my head in disbelief at what anime fans have become now.
Otaku pandering doesn't mean anything special. In Japan if you watch anime you are an otaku. Otaku pandering is something like "sighted people pandering". "Adult pandering type" describes it better, in that your body need to have reached puberty for you to understand.

Yes, the pandering argument is lacking. I hate it myself. Problem is that people are also questioning the point of the episode and not just its content.

[leorodri100]

Ah...

Too bad. Apologize then.

no need to apologise :D

[Kaoru Chujo]

...Most importantly though, why do you think everyone who is not happy with this episode is like some social prude who is outraged on the attack of morality or something...? Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was. It took up the entire episode. The fact that I find such a fetish stupid, not offensive really but stupid, is merely a side note to the bigger picture here. When you take one scene that did almost nothing for the story as a whole, and suck up an entire episode out of it...then I'm going to raise issues with it when Nise has already had glacial pacing issues.Good points, although probably your inability to enjoy the fetish had something to do with your feeling the episode had poor pacing. Personally, I was shocked when the episode ended: I was so enthralled that I thought it wasn't even half over. A combination of fascination, discomfort and admiration had stalled my brain, lol. Now that's good anime.

In fact, one of the great things about the episode was that in an ep billed as being about Tsukihi, she only showed up at the end. Shinbou has many talents, one of which is always keeping the viewer a bit off-balance, vulnerable to what comes next. He does this with the nature and rhythm of his outstanding visuals -- and he did that here -- and also with the pacing of the script. Apparently for the first time ever as a director, Shinbou is credited as co-lead writer for this series, so he no doubt had more of a hand in the script than usual.

However, in a Shinbou/Nisio anime, "story" is a minor part of the enjoyment, for me. The fact that this scene "did almost nothing for the story as a whole" is quite beside the point, since it did so much else (characters, fanservice, visuals, dialogue, humour, etc.).

All in all, I consider this a great anime episode, partly because of the fact that Shinbou went so far. It wasn't "over-indulgence," it was Art, with a capital A. As well, of course, as Fanservice with a capital...F.

This may be the most I have ever enjoyed Kitamura Eri's voice. By emphasizing the edge in it, she (or famous sound director Tsuruoka Yota) gave it more presence. And I was surprised at how much I enjoyed Iguchi Yuka's singing of the OP. Of course, the OP animation was what drew me in to begin with: one of the great OP animations I can remember -- rhythmic, complex, beautiful.

[Haak]

On the one hand I can agree with people saying this episode didn't contribute to the plot. On the other hand I was too busy laughing my ass off to care.

I've never really cared all that much about plot in this series. To me, the Monogatari series isn't about plot. It's entire point is to give interesting and funny characters and explore them in various ways regardless of whether it turns out to be fully relevant in the grand scheme of things. So frankly I didn't mind the overblown "toothbrush" scene and everything leading up to it. Perhaps this is Nsio/Shinbo going too far in being clever for the sake of being clever, but that's what I've always liked about this series. It's what I think it's all about.

Now if the somewhat incestrous relationship developing between Araragi and Karen turns out to be completely irrelevant altogether later on then it would definitely seem pointtess and is really something that should've been relegated to an OVA or something. But we don't know if it's going to be irrelevant or not so we can't say for sure. Still I guess some people probably feel that even if it is relevant, then it still shouldn't have taken up so much screen time, but that depends also on what will actually happen next. It is also possible that this element has so much impact that it requires a whole episode of AraragixKaren antics to set up.

[EDIT]

Oh not again...

[Archon_Wing]

The consensus for the "unsatisfied party" with this episode is as follow: this episode -does not contribute to the main plot-, in a very dubious fashion to boot.
Not all scenes should, since you have your casual scenes and whatnot. However, we are talking about a -full- episode of a 11 episodes series. If you factor the context, there is no way everyone would be satisfied with this weird directing choice altogether.
The only "major" thing we learned in this episode is Karen's admiration for Suruga and... that's basically it. Which means that we could pretty well obliterate that episode from the series, and the continuity and plot wouldn't be hurt to the slightest, or at worst, just barely.

My personal opinion is that: I honestly laughed a bit how silly/exaggerated the scene was, but quickly gone baffled how long it took and how the premise took the whole episode. Yes, the toothbrushing scene is 3-4 minutes, but the leadup and the other points totalized -20 minutes-.
Really, the "incest" part is really not the worst part of it. I personally would react the same if it was any of the female character, perhaps a bit less with hitagi since it would be "less alienating" since she is Koyomi's girlfriend after all.

But seriously, it is starting to be quite annoying to see comments alienating people stance by false pretense of satirical outrage, while -several- traits of the episode made it quite questionable, in a directing perspective.
Fanservice by itself wouldn't cause so much ruckus, within different circumstances, so branding people as "how could they follow this series so far" is moot and impertinent.

Yea, I think it's a bit dishonest to bottle up this criticism to moral outrage. There's a bit more to this, since well I know some of the people that don't like this episode sometimes enjoy ecchi, and occasionally stuff way more explicit then the stuff being shown here.

I can't speak for anyone, but, I liked Yosuga no Sora, and I'm sure that would have sparked more "moral panic" than this. I mean, I've watched two series that involve someone fucking their sister(s) in explicit fashion and I didn't complain... too much. :heh: I just watched a rather good hentai the day before this episode that I rated 8/10 on MAL and I probably can't discuss it any more here. :heh: I watched Boku wa Tomadachi mainly to see the characters bend over. This season, I'm not watching Inu x Boku SS for the plot. Hell, I was even looking forward to Karen fanservice because I find her one of the hotter characters in the series. But sometimes it is how it is served.

Take the episode with Shinobu. I barely considered that episode fanservice at all. It was sensual, but most importantly it felt natural, and that was just 2 naked people in a bath all episode. But only for a few moments I felt it was gratuitous because I was too busy worrying about other stuff, like the dialogue and how awesome Shinobu was.

I also didn't even have a problem with the last Karen fanservice episode that involved him rubbing her down and Araragi walking around with only a towel. That was odd, but still I didn't find it too ridiculous anyways. I think it displayed their closeness a lot better than this episode which just seemed to focus too much on tossing in naughty shots of Karen.

Anyhow, there's a problem when you're looking for hot stuff but just find this... and it's not like Shaft has the best visuals anyways so the fanservice already takes a hit. ;)

[Kaoru Chujo]

...Anyhow, there's a problem when you're looking for hot stuff but just find this... and it's not like Shaft has the best visuals anyways so the fanservice already takes a hit. ;)I know you are referring specifically to detailed fanservice visuals, but I just want to say that I personally feel that in general terms Shaft does have the "best visuals." If I want to watch a show for the visual aspect of it, I will choose a Shaft show. It's not a matter of detail, for sure, or of detailed motion (although there was plenty of that here), but Shinbou simply has the eye and knows how to produce what I regard as actual Art.

[Dop]

Oh... my..... GOD!!

I think I need a cold shower now. That scene (and you know which one I mean) was just erotic.
OK, OK, it may have been bad and wrong, but still, it was erotic.

More than that, it showed you can do erotic without resorting to tits and arse, which is a lesson so many other anime series could do with learning.

Also, now the combination of Nisoisin and Shinbo have introduced the anime-viewing world to the concept of 'tooth-brushing fetish', which is a phrase I DARE NOT GOOGLE!!!

Free-ow. I'm going to the pub now. I need a drink, or several!

[speedyexpress48]

Art? Yes. But in terms of "hotness" or "cuteness"? Don't get me wrong, even tho I like all the character's looks, I'll admit they are not the best at this aspect. Thinking about it, maybe more random fanservice here and there would be better than one straight fanservice episode, but I still greatly enjoyed it. Just my opinion, nothing less, nothing more.

Anyways, we can all agree that regardless of what's happening here...
http://i40.tinypic.com/35becdw.png

[00Coyote]

The consensus for the "unsatisfied party" with this episode is as follow: this episode -does not contribute to the main plot-, in a very dubious fashion to boot.
Not all scenes should, since you have your casual scenes and whatnot. However, we are talking about a -full- episode of a 11 episodes series. If you factor the context, there is no way everyone would be satisfied with this weird directing choice altogether.
The only "major" thing we learned in this episode is Karen's admiration for Suruga and... that's basically it. Which means that we could pretty well obliterate that episode from the series, and the continuity and plot wouldn't be hurt to the slightest, or at worst, just barely.
I've bolded a statement that I keep seeing, in one form or another, over and over again.

"It isn't adding to the plot." "Nothing happened." "The plot is not moving." "Pointless."

I don't understand this sentiment, it baffles me, strikes me as strange. How can one think this after really watching Bakemonogatari, and 8 episodes of Nisemonogatari?

The plot for these stories, the whole motivation behind everything is: Araragi being put in odd situations with various female cast members, and *specifically* the conversations that those situations generate. That is the whole point, aim, crux, focus, the very reason for existence of this series.

It's never been about what is happening, it is about the conversations and the interactions the characters are having. There's a scant framework of motivation to make somewhat plausible why they are having the conversation, the thing other shows would call plot. In this story, it's just there to facilitate the conversations.

The plot is the characters talking, I don't know if it can be put simpler.

[Malkuth]

I know you are referring specifically to detailed fanservice visuals, but I just want to say that I personally feel that in general terms Shaft does have the "best visuals." If I want to watch a show for the visual aspect of it, I will choose a Shaft show. It's not a matter of detail, for sure, or of detailed motion (although there was plenty of that here), but Shinbou simply has the eye and knows how to produce what I regard as actual Art.

I totally agree, artistically Nise- is extremely gratifying (designs, allocation of animation, background art, acting, pacing of the dialogue), character development mixes in more naturally with the plot and what most refer as fan-service.

[zarqu]

And we are slowly coming full circle with what is a staple in Monogatari threads: plot vs. no plot, character interactions vs. plot moving, substance vs. no substance at all (since nothing is happening!), etc.

I think relentlessflame/00Coyote pretty much nailed it above, as far as I'm concerned.

[speedyexpress48]

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think Bake had too much of a plot to begin with. It was a bunch of the weird and shocking tied together loosely into one series in my opinion.

[Klashikari]

The plot is the characters talking, I don't know if it can be put simpler.
This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

Surely, the monogatari series is (in)famous for its talking head syndrome with gritty/clever themes, characters quirks and so forth. However, it isn't the same in this episode: what we got here? an erotic centred scene based on an extravagant (if not new age?) fetish. Episode 8 basically feels extremely disjointed, as Karen "issue" is already fixed and she could, at most, be a support characters or add some flavor, the same as how every other characters such like Mayoi and Suruga were doing.

Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.

Really, it seems you miss completely the point of the problem as it is presented: I don't recall outrage with Hitagi sexy poses at the start of Nise, nor people cried "BOO INCEST" when Koyomi kissed Karen whatsoever.

Again, if fanservice itself was a single moment without being overly dominant for a full episode, theren't wouldn't have that much negative response. However, dedicating a full episode for that, with a very random premise and laid bare script? Hell no. Heck, Archon example is surely effective: Shinobu's showtime has a huge share of fanservice, yet the content and essence is radically different and the response wasn't that much negative.

There is a drastic difference here, period.
Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage. Pressing the point will be just even more paraphrasing, so I will just end with that.

[zarqu]

The episode is indeed what it is: They spent an entire episode telling us that Koyomi and Karen want to fuck eachother.

Why? Well. Paraphrasing relentlessflame: Because they can.

[joshuafaramir]

This episode was enjoyable to me and that's all that matters. If I want to watch/read a story with some plot, I'd read actual novels like ASOIAF, WoT, LOTR or Dune. This is a lightnovel for pete's sake. It deserves my 10 cookies because it did what it was supposed to do. Entertain the audience (me).

[Malkuth]

The episode is indeed what it is: They spent an entire episode telling us that why Koyomi and Karen want to fuck eachother.

Fixed it for you ;)

[zarqu]

Fixed it for you ;)
Thanks! :D Pretty much that.

[00Coyote]

The plot is the characters talking, I don't know if it can be put simpler.
This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

*snip*

Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.

*good stuff but snipped for brevity*

There is a drastic difference here, period.
I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)

Araragi and Hitagi talking way back in episode 2 of Bakemonogatari, had nothing to to with advancing the 'plot' of her being cured of the weight crab. It was there to advance the relationship between the two.

Araragi and Hitagi talking all through the snail arc had very little to do with advancing the 'plot' of getting Hachikuji home. It was there to advance the relationship between the two.

Araragi and Shinobu talking in the bathtub have very little to do with advancing the 'plot' of helping Karen. It was there to advance the relationship between the two.

Araragi and Karen talking before the toothbrush scene, and the whole game had very little to do with Karen meeting Suruga. It was there to advance the relationship between the two. (In a somewhat disturbing direction)

Over and over you see Araragi and someone talking, sometimes under the pretense of advancing the 'plot' many times in pointless conversation. It's not about using conversation to Help X, Solve Y or Find Z, the conversations are used to advance the relationships, and if the relationships can be advanced without moving the 'plot' Nisio Isin gleefully lets the 'plot' rot while he lets the characters go on with their banter.

That is what i meant by "The plot is the characters talking."

[Klashikari]

I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)
I understood both actually, and I mentioned it:
This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.And in case I might be misunderstood again: I don't consider these dialogues anything past the gag/sexual innuendo level. Surely a good deal of people can appreciate that though. I, for one, didn't feel that much of "interaction" past the fanservice ploy / silliness amusement. Granted, if people are fine with that, that's cool. That's just something I'm not convinced due to the points explained above, and that's not because "I didn't get the joke".

[relentlessflame]

Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage.
Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!

For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence! :heh:

(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... :heh: )

[Sol Falling]

AADp5ujz81Y

[zarqu]

That track goes with anything! The animation also syncs nicely. A true masterpiece!

edit: Lol. Gotta love the video recommendations (http://i.imgur.com/5w0lZ.jpg) on that one!

[Grey]

What. This just. This is....

That toothbrush scene felt long. 10-15 minutes long.

This whole episode. It felt like I opened an episode of Death Note and the whole thing was Yagami Light eating potato chips for 30 minutes.

It felt like watching episode 2 of Nisemonogatari and getting thirty minutes of Koyomi and Nadeko playing twister.

This was one weird episode.

[relentlessflame]

[youtube video]I'm not usually one for random Youtube videos (this one is related at least), but somehow this video manages to match or exceed the same WTF reaction generated by the episode, but in 1:45. The anticipation for the "drop" was well done. Props to the editor. :heh:

[Archon_Wing]

Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!

For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence! :heh:

(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... :heh: )

Ah, yes simultaneous truths. I think we are taught in school that only something is right and other stuff gets you marked down. :heh: And yea, trying to rationalize someone else's arguments in your own terms can cause many problems. Sometimes no one is really "wrong". They enjoyed it, or they didn't and that's just that. I can't go around saying people are wrong for feeling a certain way, because while entertainment is subjective those thoughts really did happen.

In other words, there's almost always a legit reason to vote something "Good" "bad" or "something in between". And staring at the poll suggests that many people have thought different things. :heh:

It's also why I try to avoid psychoanalyzing other people's motives. When I see a comment about this episode, it's merely a snapshot of their thoughts of a single episode of the whole show. I don't clearly know what they think of this anime or anime in general, and often as hard as I try to extrapolate, the reality of someone's tastes is often far different than what you can expect at first glance.

[Triple_R]

And you watch it play out and you go "wow, now that's something I don't see everyday -- what the heck just happened?"

That's not what I took from it at all.

You do see this everyday in anime.

A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones.

Oh wow! How daring! How bold!

How... I've seen this a bazillion places before. How disappointing of the man who wrote the excellent arcs and dialogue of Bakemonogatari.

Yes, the use of a toothbrush was mildly creative (I write "mildly" because it never went anywhere outside of Karen's mouth), but the toothbrush is simply a vehicle for the oldest and most tired anime tropes in the book. Furthermore, the vehicle chosen utterly destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I've been to a Dentist before. Getting your teeth brushed by another person is highly unlikely to have an effect like this, even if you're madly in love with the person doing the brushing.

What's in Nise Episode 8 is all over the place in anime. It's nothing new, and it's nothing fresh, and it's nowhere near worth the insane levels of hype that this is episode is getting, imo.

It's admittedly very well-executed (production values, dialogue) sexual innuendo comedy, but "sexual innuendo comedy" is frankly dime-a-dozen in anime. What the Monogatari series used to be was much more fresh and unique in comparison to that, imo.


The Monogatari series actually used to explore interesting conflicts, ideas, relationship issues, and themes. There was a certain intellectual and thought-provoking heft to it. Aside from a couple conversations involving Kaiki there's been virtually none of this in Nise.


Edit: As an analogy, it reminds me of when a popular band that has a certain style decides all of a sudden to put out an album that has a totally different style or is really weird/experimental, and fans start complaining "what happened to this band? They used to be so good!" And someone asks the band about it, and they just say it's an album they wanted to make. It's the "because we can" principle. They know it might alienate some of their fans, but pleasing those fans wasn't why they did it in the first place. "To thine own self be true," as it were. From the commentary posted above, that seems to be the case here too.

To add on to your analogy, but based on my perspective, it would be as if an once interesting musician decided to sell out by producing easy/breezy pop songs for teenage girls. It would be like if Michael Jackson, at the height of Thriller, teamed up with other genuinely interesting top musicians, to turn into The Backstreet Boys. That's honestly what seeing Bake transition to Nise has been like to me.


I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)

Even if we accept your position here (which in and of itself is debatable), there's a problem here.

All of the fanservice scenes of this anime (with the exceptions of the one involving Hitagi) can't go anywhere, hence keeping character relationships in something of a holding pattern as far as romantic/sexual interest is concerned. They're all one big tease, imo. That's a lot of what I often find unsatisfying about them. But then, that's partly why I've never understood the love of sexual fanservice that a fair number of anime fans have - So much of it is a tease that doesn't go anywhere, and will never go anywhere.

And this episode is also almost certainly going to amount to nothing but a big tease (unless Nisio is bolder than I currently think he is, and hence chooses to seriously threaten the Arargi/Hitagi pairing).

What interest this episode could have had for me is drowned out in the knowledge that Araragi is basically already taken (by someone who's liable to kill him or seriously maim him if he breaks her heart) and the Monogatari series won't go so far as to show actual sex scenes on camera.

[zarqu]

Pretty much everything has been done already. I have seen a lot kinkier stuff than any mainstream anime could ever deliver. You could also argue that Karen chose to be aroused by the simple brushing of teeth. The physiological evidence of this actually causing any kind of sexual excitement is zero, I think. Can't rule out the psychological factors, though.

I choose to be excited by the small stuff. It doesn't matter, for me, that it's only "mildly creative". It matters because it's exactly these characters and exactly in this show, that I love, who are doing it.

edit: I can, once again, only allude to what relentlessflame wrote about perspective below.

[Shikijin]

Also, it's very painful to watch fellow novel readers talk about the meaning of 不死 since they clearly know which version is being used.It is more painful for me since it seems nobody ever reads what I write. I just presented as a curiosity the fact 不死 is also used for undead. Nothing more. I tried to highlight the word "also" many times, but nobody ever noticed it :rolleyes: The thing is, I recently got into an argument about the translation of a word for the opposite reason, the others were stating the word must have had multiple nuances :eyespin:
"Someone didn't get the joke." I kinda feel bad for them. You can try to explain the joke, but even if you succeed they will never find it as funny as the person who got it.I'll try to explain too in my own way.

Works of fiction are abstractions of reality. Simplified abstractions of reality. Things work in the most easiest way. For example in movie we often see people shooting at locks to open a door. In reality it wouldn't work, but in fiction it's just an abstraction of what one has to do to open a locked door, so the audience can accept it. Much more acceptable than having someone spend ten minutes on screen to pick a lock.

What happens in anime?

You beat someone up? Chances are he will become your friend and ally.

Someone is moping? A punch to his face will make him come to his senses.

Araragi can't get on well with his sister? Pseudo-sex scene. Now they are just one step away from being carnal lovers.

That's the concept. What Nisio does is a substitution of reality. The author just threw away the tedious parts and instead offered a pseudo-explanation, highly improbable and therefore even believable, of a catharsis between siblings randomly initiated by an unsuspectable trigger, and both the characters and the audience were caught off guard. This was glorious.
I agree, but "Deal with it" isn't really a productive criticism or conclusion of anything, and serves to not create any further understanding. It's merely a dismissive, and frankly, arrogant tone that shoudn't be used when you aren't properly responding to people. I criticize not what you say, but your manner of debate.Honestly, by now I don't even remember what I was replying to, and I am sorry I can't muster the strength of will to look back in this thread. Anyway, in threads like this I read a lot of things that rub me the wrong way, so I acknowledge probably I overreacted.

The fact is that there is a poll over this thread, so you can easily gauge how much the show is appreciated. It is a fact this episode was liked, and liked a lot. When you see this fact, when you see that, as of now, there are currently 108 10s and 5 1s, it is preposterous to speak like this episode could have ever been cut, even as a hypothetical statement.

It may be because I am old enough and a veteran of many internet debates, but seriously, if you are clearly in the minority act more like it. One should have superior arguments, not an air of superior morality or superior tastes as if you were still the winner even if didn't convince anyone.

(Then again probably I can't blame people that much because the previous adaptation of Bake was somehow misleading)
Yes, the pandering argument is lacking. I hate it myself. Problem is that people are also questioning the point of the episode and not just its content.The point of the episode is its content.

If Nisio really wanted he could have cut a lot of scenes. He could have cut and sewed the plot, cut and sewed the plot, gradually simplifying things. But if you adopt that attitude, then there is no scene you can't cut. You need to know when to stop; if you have between your hands a good scene, sometimes you can go for it even if it's unnecessary to the plot.

And then again 1) the heroine of the previous arc must be present at the beginning, that was the formula of the first season. Karen was a given 2) it's a bit like in the Simpsons, the story starts from a tangential issue and you can't foresee early the direction it will take. Not a big deal, really.

[Sol Falling]

This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

Surely, the monogatari series is (in)famous for its talking head syndrome with gritty/clever themes, characters quirks and so forth. However, it isn't the same in this episode: what we got here? an erotic centred scene based on an extravagant (if not new age?) fetish. Episode 8 basically feels extremely disjointed, as Karen "issue" is already fixed and she could, at most, be a support characters or add some flavor, the same as how every other characters such like Mayoi and Suruga were doing.

Claiming it is all about character talk in this very episode is dubious at best: the circumstances and visuals were the very first striking part of this episode, and frankly, revolving 20 minutes over 1 single game for simply having "Karen meeting Suruga" is beyond something I really expect to be "a clever directing choice" for a series that has only 11 episodes.

Really, it seems you miss completely the point of the problem as it is presented: I don't recall outrage with Hitagi sexy poses at the start of Nise, nor people cried "BOO INCEST" when Koyomi kissed Karen whatsoever.

Again, if fanservice itself was a single moment without being overly dominant for a full episode, theren't wouldn't have that much negative response. However, dedicating a full episode for that, with a very random premise and laid bare script? Hell no. Heck, Archon example is surely effective: Shinobu's showtime has a huge share of fanservice, yet the content and essence is radically different and the response wasn't that much negative.

There is a drastic difference here, period.
Oh well, third time I expose in a different fashion the problem I see in this episode, while other didn't feel that much of an outrage. Pressing the point will be just even more paraphrasing, so I will just end with that.

What were the elements that convinced you Shinobu's bath scene had meaning beyond fanservice, and why do you think that there aren't actually similar elements here? You say that the focus of this episode is an "extravagant/new-age fetish". We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant. It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend. The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.

Additionally, that SHAFT/Nishio dedicated an entire episode at this point to Koyomi's relationship with Karen is extremely reasonable given that this was the standard "aftermath/epilogue following a character arc". The beginning of Mayoi's arc focused on Hitagi; Mayoi was featured at the start of Kanbaru's; Kanbaru became a significant factor in Nadeko's; we began to understand Nadeko's true characterization when we moved to Tsubasa's arc. Karen herself showing somewhat rarely during her character arc, it is appropriate to use the introduction to Tsukihi's arc as an opportunity to showcase how Karen has changed and the new state of their relationship.

Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place. When people can't understand someone else's perspective, they often try to reframe it or rationalize it by proposing another explanation/motivation that would make sense to them. For example, I think it's easy for people to imagine that people are so upset by incest or fanservice that "that must be" why their opinion of the episode is tainted. If you do that, it allows you to dismiss that opinion and say "oh they're just biased" (/ignorant/stupid/misinformed/silly/wrong/etc.). Because the alternative is understanding that two totally reasonable people with rational judgement can see the very same thing from two different perspectives and both be absolutely right!

For my part, I can say that I think everything you had to say about the episode makes sense and doesn't seem unreasonable. But I can also say that none of the aspects that troubled you had any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of the episode. And so, even though we watched the same episode and had largely opposite reactions, we're both right. Vive la différence! :heh:

(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... :heh: )

I don't think it's false to say that the people disappointed with the episode believe that its primary motivation was to indulge in incestual fanservice. The difference between people's reactions to this and previous instances similarly tinged with fanservice was that this time they couldn't see the wider themes/context which connect the fanservice scenes to the story. As some posters have earlier stated, one of the characteristics of the Bakemonogatari series is that the fanservice/eroticism is intimately coupled with the plot. In this episode, yes of course the scenes were extremely fanservicey and filled with gratuity. However, to write these scenes off and say they have nothing to do with the overall greater picture of development is simply inaccurate.

[Elestia]

Wow, this thread certainly exploded in just one night.

Personally, I do not find it unreasonable for this episode to receive a low score, but I would not think one scene would warrant the entire episode to be voted as a one. Maybe it's because I take things as a holistic approach in watching episode, that I can still at find some redeeming elements in it. While, the toothbrush scene does entertain me to such levels I haven't experienced in a long time, it was the other details that truly made it deserve a ten for me. Considerations for the animation, the style, the execution, the dialogue, the new OP, and the VA really stood out for me after I re-watched it a couple more times. Shaft really outdid themselves this episode. The BGM that accompanied the toothbrush scene, especially, added the the overall presentation.

For me, a one means the episode from the beginning to the end was terrible in all aspects.

[relentlessflame]

You do see this everyday in anime.

A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones.

Oh wow! How daring! How original!Well, only to clarify what I meant, I certainly didn't expect it in this show, in this form, and to this degree of comedic excess (and the latter was the key for me). But I wonder if this is a bit like the "if you have to explain the joke, it wasn't funny" analogy others have alluded to. I'm not sure. But all I can say is that I have a really hard time relating to a perspective that would say:

What's in Nise Episode 8 is all over the place in anime. It's nothing new, and it's nothing fresh, and it's nowhere near worth the insane levels of hype that this is episode is getting, imo.That really does make me feel that our difference in perspective may be insurmountable; it feels to me like we're talking about a different subject entirely. What I saw in this episode seems to be entirely different from what you saw (even having technically "seen" the same thing), so I guess it stands to reason that our perspective would differ. I can only leave it at that.

[Om Nerabdator]

the best anime episode ive seen all year ^^

[Triple_R]

Pretty much everything has been done already.

That's debatable, but it's a long debate, so let's put it aside. Let's go with what you wrote here for argument's sake.

Even if "pretty much everything has been done already", some things have been done a lot more commonly and often than other things have.

Using an element or idea that is very rarely exploited or referenced is a lot more interesting, in my opinion, than using the oldest and most tired anime tropes in the book.


You know, if I had come into this thread and saw the usual spread of 10s, 9s, 8s, etc... for an Anime Suki episode thread, and read just the usual level of praise, I'd have thought nothing of it.

But people back on the first few pages of this thread were talking about this episode as though it was the boldest and most daring thing ever (i.e. "outrageous", and similar terms, being thrown around a lot). It's no more bold or daring than an unusually well-produced Backstreet Boys CD, perhaps with some unusual artwork for the CD Jacket to be fair.

Some experienced anime fans like Reckoner and I aren't offended, really, by the imouto fetish of anime. We're simply tired of it. It would now actually be more daring for anime to have a major brother and sister combo without romantic/sexual feelings for one another. :heh:


I have seen a lot kinkier stuff than any mainstream anime could ever deliver. You could also argue that Karen chose to be aroused by the simple brushing of teeth.

That would just make it sad, as it would mean that she was faking it. :heh:


We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant.

Only if it's allowed to actually go somewhere, or result in significant interpersonal conflict later on. If it's not, it has little to no meaning.


It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend.

That committed relationship with his girlfriend is precisely why I don't find it interesting. I really doubt this series is going to seriously challenge the Hitagi/Araragi pairing (although I'm prepared to be corrected on that if readers of later novels know something that I don't - feel free to PM me if I'm wrong here).


The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.

That's probably an assumption on your part, Sol. It may well have no significant impact on the rest of the story.


However, to write these scenes off and say they have nothing to do with the overall greater picture of development is simply inaccurate.

How do you know that? Seriously, how? If you know something from the later novels that I don't know, then please PM me about it.

[leorodri100]

i'm re-watching nise 8 for the 50th time now

[00Coyote]

I think you misunderstood me.

It's not about the characters talking. (to advance the plot)
It's about the characters talking. (to advance the relationships)
I understood both actually, and I mentioned it:

This is exactly the big picture and problem with this episode: the talking itself is basically moot and serve nothing in the "heroine issue" or her characterization nor actual interaction with Koyomi.

SHAFT being SHAFT on the toothbrush aside, the whole episode developed Araragi and Karen's relationship drastically. Previous to the Karen Bee incident, the two did not have the best of relationship. After the toothbrush incident, the two still don't have the best of relationship, but for a completely different reason.

I believe up to that point, Araragi was telling the truth when he told Hitagi that he wasn't a siscon. A lolicon perhaps, but he did not see his sister as a target for sexual attraction. After that incident, the two became very close. Uncomfortably close for other people.

The start of the episode also showed that Karen had changed some in her relationship with her brother. She was still brash and forceful, but for whatever reason, was looking to help him with something. That helping intent got sidetracked when he brought up Kanbaru, which brought up the toothbrush game, which drastically altered the dynamic between them.

As an aside, I would have preferred to have some hot AraragixHitagi action instead of this, but Nisio Isin wrote this for himself, and SHAFT brilliantly animated it for themselves. It's another thing I find amusing in this discussion, the whole pandering to the audience. I think SHAFT knows their audience, but I really think they went over the top on adapting this because dammit, they WANT to draw hawt toothbrush action porn.


And in case I might be misunderstood again: I don't consider these dialogues anything past the gag/sexual innuendo level. Surely a good deal of people can appreciate that though. I, for one, didn't feel that much of "interaction" past the fanservice ploy / silliness amusement. Granted, if people are fine with that, that's cool. That's just something I'm not convinced due to the points explained above, and that's not because "I didn't get the joke".
The "didn't get the joke" is an over generalization on my part, which as RelentlessFlame said, I try to rationalize with why someone would react vehemently to something that I see as over the top absurdist humor. I post something, you post a reply and more than likely neither of us will be closer to understanding the other.

Basically, this is the poster-child example of what a difference perspective makes. The issue isn't what the problem is, but why or whether it even is a problem in the first place.
*snip*
(Man a lot of forum arguments would end more quickly and peacefully if people could remember this principle... :heh: )
But what fun would a peaceful forum be?

[zarqu]

That's debatable, but it's a long debate, so let's put it aside. Let's go with what you wrote here for argument's sake.
Yes, I know. It was sort of an unfair thing to say, really. I was merely trying to point out that I don't get overly excited that easily, either. In the internet you get a chance to throw these grand remarks around. Sorry!

That would just make it sad, as it would mean that she was faking it.
Yes. Sad in the way that she was so hopelessly craving for her brother's... special attention :heh: As for the whole "stupidity" of the fetish, well. I liked what I saw :) It's not so much the actual brushing of the teeth, as it is Koyomi's realization that he wants to have sex with his sister, or at least the desire explore further, that made the scene interesting for me.

It would now actually be more daring for anime to have a major brother and sister combo without romantic/sexual feelings for one another.
Possibly. I have been out of the loop, meaning that I haven't followed every new anime for a while.

Is blood-related incest really so mainstream now that we are getting tired of it? Last anime I watched which dealt with it was Yosuga no Sora. Complexes are an another matter, but to actually act out those desires. We have seen incestuous couples before (OreImo, implied, and Black Lagoon with the twins etc.), but I'm not ready to dismiss it as a boring trope. Especially when this series is concerned.

And a small disclaimer if it wasn't obvious: I'm not what you could call "an experienced fan". Only a couple of years under the belt etc. :)

But people back on the first few pages of this thread were talking about this episode as though it was the boldest and most daring thing ever (i.e. "outrageous", and similar terms, being thrown around a lot).
I have to resort to the old adage of "your mileage may vary." Actually, our mileage will no doubt vary :heh: Also, I'm not a native speaker, so I like to throw grand adjectives like "glorious" around a lot. I'd wager that after you have spent enough time in the internet (which I think you have), you learn to take these things with a big grain of salt. Also, many fans were spoiled about this years ago and the hype had been building up to actually see it animated :)

Only if it's allowed to actually go somewhere, or result in significant interpersonal conflict later on. If it's not, it has little to no meaning.
Yes. I expressed concern about this very matter a few pages back.

I pretty much agree what you wrote about getting tired of overused fetishes. But what else can I do, as a huge fan of this series, but to get excited when the main character and his sister are about to embark on an incestuous journey?

This series has a lot of fans, so the constant circlejerking will no doubt prove tiring to read through, though. Reality checks (for the fans) are healthy!

[Triple_R]

Yes, I know. It was sort of an unfair thing to say, really. I was merely trying to point out that I don't get overly excited that easily, either. In the internet you get a chance to throw these grand remarks around. Sorry!

It's Ok. Your points have largely been clear, eloquent, and fair. :)


Yes. Sad in the way that she was so hopelessly craving for her brother's... special attention :heh: As for the whole "stupidity" of the fetish, well. I liked what I saw :)

It was very well-drawn/animated, no question.





Possibly. I have been out of the loop, meaning that I haven't followed every new anime for a while.

Is blood-related incest really so mainstream now? Last anime I watched which dealt with it was Yosuga no Sora.

All of the following fairly recent anime hint at incestuous desire, if not actual incestuous sex:



True Tears
ef: A Tale of Memories (kind of)
Sola (kind of)
Clannad & Clannad: After Story
Amagami SS
Yosuga no Sora
Ore no Imouto
KissXSis
Kamisama Dolls
YuruYuri (only briefly, though, IIRC)
Mawaru Penguin Drum


That's off the top of my head. I'm almost certainly forgetting some.




And a small disclaimer if it wasn't obvious: I'm not what you could call "an experienced fan", really. Only a couple of years under the belt etc. :)

Gotcha. Well, at that point in my own anime fandom, something like this episode probably would have had more of an impact on me.


Also, many fans were spoiled about this years ago and the hype had been building up to actually see it animated :)

In fairness, that makes sense. I guess that would be a lot of it, but not a factor to me personally as I'm an anime-only viewer.

[solomon]

I'm too lazy and too jaded to go through this forum and all the criteria......

While fun it seemed like a sort of a wasted episode, that was a big Karen fanservice escapade,

While I am uncomfortable with shameless fanservice in general the prospect of incest in this show, I do admit (grudgingly) that "the sequence" was "engaging" to me, despite my heavy conflict with it....

Other than that, not much else to the ep I am afraid.

[Grey]

Blarg, Karen breaks my suspension of disbelief. I feel like I need a scene or two of her thoughts leading up to this. Then I'd be able to enjoy it better.

Right now it's too much of a character jump for me. Like Karen is suddenly channeling Nadeko.

[Sol Falling]

Well, only to clarify what I meant, I certainly didn't expect it in this show, in this form, and to this degree of comedic excess (and the latter was the key for me). But I wonder if this is a bit like the "if you have to explain the joke, it wasn't funny" analogy others have alluded to. I'm not sure. But all I can say is that I have a really hard time relating to a perspective that would say:

That really does make me feel that our difference in perspective may be insurmountable; it feels to me like we're talking about a different subject entirely. What I saw in this episode seems to be entirely different from what you saw (even having technically "seen" the same thing), so I guess it stands to reason that our perspective would differ. I can only leave it at that.

To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:
In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series? Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing? Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience? Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?

SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience. That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?


Only if it's allowed to actually go somewhere, or result in significant interpersonal conflict later on. If it's not, it has little to no meaning.

Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning? Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself. The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.

The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush. My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.

That committed relationship with his girlfriend is precisely why I don't find it interesting. I really doubt this series is going to seriously challenge the Hitagi/Araragi pairing (although I'm prepared to be corrected on that if readers of later novels know something that I don't - feel free to PM me if I'm wrong here).

I don't expect the final relationship with Koyomi/Hitagi to be challenged in all likelihood by anybody aside from Shinobu, myself. But that doesn't remove all further interactions Araragi has with girls aside from Shinobu and Hitagi of having meaning. As a matter of fact, Hitagi is not even a major character for a large chunk of the novels following this present season. The relationships Araragi has with each of the girls, all have their own meanings in their development.

That's probably an assumption on your part, Sol. It may well have no significant impact on the rest of the story.

As I've detailed above, this is an issue of what in the Bakemonogatari series you decide to deem "significant"; though as for what is likely the most successful way of enjoying the series, the answer should probably be "everything and nothing".

How do you know that? Seriously, how? If you know something from the later novels that I don't know, then please PM me about it.

The principle advice I can offer here is only that, in my experience, Nishio remembers his details and characters. Even within these adaptations into anime, we have already seen several callbacks in this manner towards various details of Bakemonogatari. My other detailed experience with Nishio's work, Medaka Box, also shares this characteristic. So I can only say that, for any insignificant event that you pick up on in these series--don't worry, Nishio will remember it.

[~Yami~]

Perfect 10

i will never look at a toothbrush the same way again.

Indeed :D

Well. I think it's pretty clear. After Tsukihi had left:

And after that we see them getting close, almost kissing, the toothbrush flashes, and they fall together.

thanks God.... if it's only another toothbrush scene then it's okay.... I thought it will be more than that :heh:
honestly, this is more realistic than what's happening in previous episode... I don't believe that Araragi had sex with Hitagi that night but in this episode, somehow I believe they're doing more than brushing teeth after Tsukihi left

10/10.... what else.... I don't really support incest route but Karen is too adorable... so, if you help someone to solve their irregularities, they will fall on you... :D

I wonder why Karen want to meet Kanbaru... don't tell me if she has a 'yuri' fetish too....

new technique acquired = toothbrush....:heh:

[Clarste]

Blarg, Karen breaks my suspension of disbelief. I feel like I need a scene or two of her thoughts leading up to this. Then I'd be able to enjoy it better.

Right now it's too much of a character jump for me. Like Karen is suddenly channeling Nadeko.

I thought the episode made it quite clear. She was trying to butter him up before asking for a favor, by being the cute submissive sister she thought he'd like. The whole incident was caused by her receiving the photos on her phone that proved that Koyomi was friends with Kanbaru. As soon as her seduction and groveling failed she went into "attack mode" which shows what her true intentions were the entire time.

Neither of them had any serious romantic intentions for the other until the toothbrush scene started.

[Gohan78]

I voted 10/10 because the toothbrush scene was one of the most erotic things I've ever watched, including many hentai. And it is original; I would have never thought of a toothbrush as an adult toy before. :heh:

That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke. :nono:
Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.

I also can't believe that some commenters are calling that scene "character development". :rolleyes:
People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse. The dialogue between the Araragi siblings wasn't even witty, which could be said of the Shinobu bath scene. Nothing in their interaction could persuade me that their relationship has got better, except because "the plot demands it". If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.

The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation.

Keep this a secret, but to tell you the truth, I had originally written this novel without any plans to publish it. I wrote the entire thing without showing it to anyone. I wanted to hide it away without even making a single printout. In other words, this novel was originally something I was going to keep to myself. So this novel was written 200% to fit my tastes. I very much enjoyed getting to write everything that came from my mind without any arbitrary restrictions.

Yes, there were times when I asked myself, “What the hell are you doing? You’re a professional!” But I think there’s a certain charm to approaching writing as if I were an amateur.

[zarqu]

That's off the top of my head. I'm almost certainly forgetting some.
Gotcha. Well, at that point in my own anime fandom, something like this episode probably would have had more of an impact on me.
Yes. I have watched most shows in that list. My point is not that it's anything new or, gasp, shocking. The special pleading I'm engaging in is from a fan's point of view. I'm excited precisely because it's happening in this very show and to these very characters. Do I like to, perhaps overly so, to glorify it in these episode threads? Yes!

By they way. In my mind I'm drawing a strict line between blood-related and non-blood-related incest. Blood-related being more interesting. It might be an unfair criteria, since adopted siblings can, and most likely do, develop psychological ties as strong as real siblings. The taboo is stronger with real siblings, I think, though.

Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience?
The choice of BGM and its effect was particularly strong for me. I had this eerie feel throughout the scene. Then I remembered why. Kubrick really knew how to use music.

A Clockwork Orange - The Thieving Magpie. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX5HDU8ojaY)

If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.
Well. I choose (naively, you could argue) to believe Koyomi in this case when he says that after the incident "they have been getting along a little better". This was expressed differentily in the novel, I think.

The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published.
Interesting thoughts here that do make sense, given the content. I'm interested to see Nisio's best shot at mental masturbation, then.

[relentlessflame]

That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke. :nono:
Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.Here's that difference in perspective again. To me, it was all a big joke. The joke is in the increasing absurdity of the situation, and the way they exaggerated the eroticism so much over something seemingly-innocuous like toothbrushing. Combined with the carnivalesque music, it was the very picture of absurdity. They deliberately play the "incest" and "erotic" angles to increase the tension and "this feels so wrong" sense, and the whole thing becomes "how far are they going to take this?" It kept getting worse and worse (and thus funnier and funnier), and when Tsukihi walked in (and given the way that played out, complete with Looney Toons breaking of the wall) that was just the apex of an increasingly hilarious joke, only to begin the climb again with the "puppets on strings" carnival-music-playing ending.

I don't think that's an attempt to "sugarcoat" the scene, but it's a way of trying to explain how it felt to me when I watched it. If it weren't for the extremely over-the-top eroticism and the incestuous undertones, I'm not sure if the "joke" (the way I saw it, at least) would even have been funny and then maybe it would just be "poorly-disguised softcore porn". But I suppose you could say this is a sort of "black" sense of humour. :heh:

[Nochgo]

The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation.

Well, this explains alot. No wonder Hitagi is so submissive (to Hanekawa) and Shinobu is so talkative and Karen and Araragi have psuedo sex. :eyespin:

[Malkuth]

Not really, I have no idea how true this is, but it rather unlikely

[zarqu]

Well, I believe the source is this one.

http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemonogatari-karen-bee-authors-comments

From the blog post, regarding author's notes translation: "It's a Japanese to Korean to English translation, so please excuse any bad wording or errors. I believe I got the main message correct."

edit: Read through it.

[Demi.]

It's a link, people don't have to click it if they don't want to be spoiled. Although I didn't notice any spoilers while I was reading it.

[Miyuki-ism]

Glad it didn't turn out to me Blu-ray onry or something considering how popular the scene was before it was even animated.

[Malkuth]

Well, I believe the source is this one.

http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemonogatari-karen-bee-authors-comments

From the blog post: "It's a Japanese to Korean to English translation, so please excuse any bad wording or errors. I believe I got the main message correct."

edit: Read through it.

So he wrote the thing without any pretense or ulterior motive, that explains why 90% appreciate it :rolleyes:

Amateurish work in any level or field easily beats professional :heh:

[zarqu]

If he honestly did write it for himself, it would be a treat to actually read it. To gaze into the mind of the pervert, so to speak :heh:

Watching Nise will be somewhat more interesting. As I said, I'd love to see Nisio's best shot at his mental masturbation.

I shall remain skeptical. He seems honest here, though. :D
I also thank you the readers for bearing with this novel filled with my dumb stories written without much care.

[Malkuth]

Lynch made Eraserhead for his own gratification, yet it is one of the best films I have ever watched in life. Appealing to the masses should not be the objective of any artist, but they can not live outside a society that will have very vocal critics enforcing their ideals, despite themselves not being able to contribute in any way. Actually, self-centered and honest work yields better results when viewed without the intervention of middle men who tell people what to think... which is kind of the problem I have (and probably) others have with 5 posters throughout Nise- and keeps away several others from the threads and forum :(

[Triple_R]

To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:

About "not getting the joke": You can get a joke and still not find it funny. Take a racist joke for example (not saying this episode is anywhere near that; just using this to demonstrate a point). I can understand what such a racist joke is getting at, but not find it funny.


In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series?

No doubt.


Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing?

No. I honestly think this is a bit naive. My suspicion is that Nishio's enjoyment came primarily (if not solely) from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages.


Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience?

I found the BGM extremely cheesy. It thankfully lowered the squick level, but also made it impossible for me to take this scene seriously at all, undermining any significant character development that could be read into it. The Looney Tunes-esque bit certainly didn't help here.


Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?

Given what Nise has been like all along, and given how overused the imouto fetish is, I honestly don't get people being that surprised over this episode. Nise has been very fanservice-driven almost all season, some of it rather absurd. Episode 8 amplifies it and takes it to a new extreme, but it doesn't represent a startling event given what came before, imo.


SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience.

Clearly not for some of us, which is why I felt your initial post on this thread was a bit over-the-top.


That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?

I think there's justification in being critical of the perceived overhyping of something.

I read some of this thread before I watched the episode. It honestly left me expecting Yosuga no Sora. :heh:


Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning?

Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.


Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself.

There's some truth to this, depending on the depth and quality of the dialogue. This episode had decent dialogue, but it certainly wasn't one of Nishio's best handling of dialogue, or even close to it, imo.


The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.

And what will those repercussions amount to? A joke here, a joke there, or something of actual real significance?


The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush.

If you like that sort of thing. Clearly not everybody does.

I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.


My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.

I'm still waiting for that PM proving this, Sol. ;)


Given what others have wrote about Nishio's approach to Nise, it's perhaps possible that this part of the Monogatari series might be the exception to the rule for him, and he won't go back to it often.


I don't expect the final relationship with Koyomi/Hitagi to be challenged in all likelihood by anybody aside from Shinobu, myself. But that doesn't remove all further interactions Araragi has with girls aside from Shinobu and Hitagi of having meaning.

No, but it makes implied romantic/sexual situations between Koyomi and most of the female cast a big, pointless tease to me. They can have interactions outside of that specific context, though.


As I've detailed above, this is an issue of what in the Bakemonogatari series you decide to deem "significant"; though as for what is likely the most successful way of enjoying the series, the answer should probably be "everything and nothing".

So you have to engage in paradoxical thinking in order to enjoy the Monogatari series. That's good to know. :heh: :p ;)


I voted 10/10 because the toothbrush scene was one of the most erotic things I've ever watched, including many hentai. And it is original;

Calling it original is giving it too much credit, imo. I'm sure that toothbrush-as-sex-toy has been tried before Nise. It is mildly creative because its certainly unusual, but calling it "original" is really stretching it.

And while this vehicle may be unusual, what the vehicle is being used to convey could hardly be more commonplace in the modern anime world.


That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke. :nono:

In fairness to them, that BGM is very cheesy. It's much more comedy music than serious romance/sex scene music, imo.


Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.

It's sexual innuendo comedy, imo. I usually don't like it when it gets to this level because "heavy sexual arousal" and "laughter" are two very different things for me, and don't easily mix together.


People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse. The dialogue between the Araragi siblings wasn't even witty, which could be said of the Shinobu bath scene. Nothing in their interaction could persuade me that their relationship has got better, except because "the plot demands it". If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.

Agreed.

[Voxxen]

Shinobu has stated that she can feel Araragi's pain...

What about pleasure!?!?!

[zarqu]

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.
If I'm allowed to be awfully blunt, I think this is bleeding obvious in any discussion with mature people.

I, personally, don't feel a need to reiterate this. But then again, I might not be one of those "bigger fans" you refer to ;)

Lynch made Eraserhead for his own gratification, yet it is one of the best films I have ever watched in life.
Yes. Now that I think about it, it's a very strange thing to publically say that you wrote something "entirely for yourself". Who were you writing for before? Certainly not the masses?

I think Nisio was just stressing his concern that his own (perhaps sexual) fantasies don't make that great of a story for a Light Novel. Maybe they don't, but I'm ready to fully indulge.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Given the course of the discussion I want to chime in and add that like others I too found the episode very bad not because I'm on some sort of moral crusade (I've long since accepted that shows like this will pander to a certain subsection of fans), but because I just legitimately did not find anything amusing or very clever about it all.

I really don't understand how it's so hard for some people to grasp that people can not like an episode of a show despite it being an accurate portrayal of source material events (not all shows are even adaptations keep in mind so this sort of thing should not be a "get out of jail free card" and this is before all the other problems with this type of thinking come into play) or that they can comprehend the attempt at humour and still not find it funny. I just really didn't see much worth getting really excited over and I found the pacing extremely poor and the attempt at a gag drawn out. That's really all it came down too.

[Triple_R]

I, personally, don't feel a need to reiterate this. But then again, I might not be one of those "bigger fans" you refer to ;)

Don't worry, you're not, lol.

I will say that I like how a couple posters wrote that they'd prefer a scene of the same nature with Hitagi, which I think shows at least some understanding of where some of the more critical posters (like myself) are coming from. I would also prefer a scene like this if it was with Hitagi, partly because I'd see it as part of ongoing romance development.


Yes. Now that I think about it, it's a very strange thing to publically say that you wrote something "entirely for yourself". Who were you writing for before? Certainly not the masses?

What I take from that is that Nishio was trying to craft good stories that more or less followed the general rules of thumb of good storytelling back when he wrote Bake (and if so, I think he succeeded very nicely there). But with Nise he's "letting his hair down", so to speak, and he just decided to go totally wild like a fanfic writer sometimes does.

A lot of fanfic writers write "just to have fun" rather than to write something that they think will be well-received by fellow fans. I know that I myself sometimes incorporate elements into my own fanfic writing that's just for personal shits and giggles.

[king12354]

I found the episode amusing because it's rare to see Koyomi ever do something for himself and when he finally does, it's to get weird with his sister. The reactions of the characters made it special though.

[DragoZERO]

What did I just watch!? My god... brushing her teeth.... I am in shock........

........

LOL at the poll.

[com_gwp]

Gentlemen (and Ladies). I do believe that we have just witnessed some sort of pinnacle in comedy fanservice. :cool:

[sa547]

What did I just watch!? My god... brushing her teeth.... I am in shock........

........

LOL at the poll.

You're not alone with that sentiment. This episode is probably the most polarizing for this season, but I'm going to hang on to this show till the end; only then I'll hand out my final judgment.

[Malkuth]

How can 115 vs 5 be polarizing :confused: What would 50 vs 50 then be :uhoh:

[Tempest35]

I didn't think there was a need to explain an episode like this other than. "...WTF" :eyespin:

Triple R and a few others are right - Just because some people don't like a particular element, character, episode, etc., there's no need to try and 'convert' them, persay or even try to explain it to them (unless they ask for it). They understand what happened - they watched the same episode we all did. :heh: We all just picked up different things from it.

And no, I'm not aiming a mallet at anyone, just my $0.02 :)

The only real thing I got from this episode, other than not-so-good ideas about toothbrushes, was that Koyomi and Karen have reached an entirely different plateau of awareness for each other thanks to this. I got my own expounding theories on why it happened, why Koyomi chose a toothbrush of all things, and why Karen got what Nadeko tried so hard to get ( :heh: ), but I don't feel like writing all of it right now. :p

If anyone wants to compare 'theories' that's fine by me - would be interesting to read what other's picked up on at the very least. :eyespin: :heh: ...maybe I will go read at least this chapter in the novel to see what I'm missing out on.

[zarqu]

A lot of fanfic writers write "just to have fun" rather than to write something that they think will be well-received by fellow fans. I know that I myself sometimes incorporate elements into my own fanfic writing that's just for personal shits and giggles.
Yeah, this is a good example. I think it will be awfully amusing to watch an entire adaption of someone else's personal "shits and giggles". :heh:

[Elestia]

Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.

It can be unecessary, but if people respond positively or negatively to it then the meaning has been already established.


Given what Nise has been like all along, and given how overused the imouto fetish is, I honestly don't get people being that surprised over this episode. Nise has been very fanservice-driven almost all season, some of it rather absurd. Episode 8 amplifies it and takes it to a new extreme, but it doesn't represent a startling event given what came before, imo.

Really? I think giving people a toothbrush fetish counts as a startling event.

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.

And I would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the lowest score possible because of it. Really, it's fine if they don't like it, but it is bad criticism when people fault the entire episode on that particular scene. Ironically, there is a "certain arrogance to that" as you wrote


Calling it original is giving it too much credit, imo. I'm sure that toothbrush-as-sex-toy has been tried before Nise. It is mildly creative because its certainly unusual, but calling it "original" is really stretching it.

It helps if you can give an example to illustrate your point. I cannot recall anything that holds a candle to what SHAFT just did with a toothbrush. Besides that, SHAFT took cliched concept and presented to the audience in a unique spin that makes it original. It's really similar to how Haruhi became such an internet phenomenon. Like Nise, Haruhi took a cliched setting, changed the premise slightly with great execution and presentation made it into an internet phenomenon. Combined with SHAFT's usual visual flairs and style they managed to deliver an experience that will make a long lasting impression on me and probably everyone who watched that scene. Even right now I'm unconsciously cataloging episode 8 in my mind as "DAT TOOTHBRUSH SCENE".

There's some truth to this, depending on the depth and quality of the dialogue. This episode had decent dialogue, but it certainly wasn't one of Nishio's best handling of dialogue, or even close to it, imo.

I do not think Sol is arguing that this episode was "Nishio's best handling of dialogue", so what is your point?

How can 115 vs 5 be polarizing :confused: What would 50 vs 50 then be :uhoh:

I think it is because 5 people gave this episode the lowest score possible. If you compare the other low scores given, there's an interesting polarizing effect going on there.

[Clarami]

What a major tease this episode was, the best...hands down! I hope we get to see more wincest!!!!

[Reckoner]

Thoughtful replies get thoughtful answers.

What were the elements that convinced you Shinobu's bath scene had meaning beyond fanservice, and why do you think that there aren't actually similar elements here? You say that the focus of this episode is an "extravagant/new-age fetish". We say that it's focus is on Koyomi's relationship with Karen. However much it functions as fanservice, Koyomi and Karen's relationship moving towards elements of explicit and/or self-aware/self-conscious romantic attraction to each other is pretty significant. It has implications regarding Koyomi's relationship with the rest of his family, as well as his relationships with other girls, as well as his committed relationship with his girlfriend. The conclusion at the end of the episode is that Karen and Koyomi have gotten a "little bit" closer. How much is that "little bit", and how will it affect the rest of the story? Saying that this episode featured "no plot" or was "pure fanservice" can't be correct, because the development here will have actual impacts on the rest of the story.

Not directed at me but I wanted to reply to this.

At least when I say this had zero interesting character development or plot I'm saying it probably contains nothing more than a tease or fetish fuel. Let me first explain how I saw the Shinobu scene and then I'll get back to this one.

The Shinobu scene was charged and was more explicit overall about everything in general. That's pretty much true. However, the conversation she had with Koyomi did many things. Oshino's existence was officially replaced in a suitably believable manner. Shinobu's personality was officially established in the anime, we knew next to nothing about her previously. The nature of her relationship with Koyomi was revealed. A bit of a begrudging acceptance of each other, though they seem to share affection. It also touched up further on a little bit of Koyomi's existential crisis. How is he as a vampire going to live out his life, will he outlive everybody? To me this was all meaty characterization and guess what? The entire time the dialogue was crisp, lively and fun, as you would expect from Monogatari.

Now compared this long drawn out episode with Karen and Araragi. They seem to be establishing sexual tension between the two. However, will this story ever truly go that route? I doubt it, and if it did, this would be instantly dropped for crap plot development (Just because it's development, doesn't mean it's particularly interesting or good development). In the end I can't know, but I am pretty assured from my experience of watching shows that this will never amount to more than a tease.

But OK, they established sexual tension and they established she admires Kanbaru. Maybe this will have some bearing on the plot, and Nisio will try to be "clever," but Nisio's cleverness does not simply earn the story points as a matter of fact for me. If the things he later brings into relevance were uninteresting and stupid to me to begin with, well damn I am not going to care. Believe me I respect Nisio in general especially after what I saw of him in Katangatari and Bake in, but to me he's just messing around way too much now. Though I still think Shinbo amplified the issues here with his usual egotistical style.

To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:
In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series? Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing? Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience? Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?

A lot of questions so I'll just answer generally.

I'm pretty sure Nisio had fun with this. I'm not so cynical to believe that he wrote this little skit with the only thoughts in his mind being, "Damn how can I get people's money... I know the most ridiculous and absurd fanservice possible!" There is probably genuine thought and passion into the craft he has. If you notice the whole time I've been attacking Shinbo more than Nisio because while I disagree with what he tried to do here, I hardly doubt he delivered it with such an egotistical sense of direction that Shinbo employed in this episode. And believe me, Shinbo milked this for all its worth (He explicitly said in the past he makes anime for the money, I am cynical when it comes to him).

However, authors may have intentions and they may genuinely try to do something they think is interesting, and in the end... I might not like it. Does not matter if I don't get it or not, I just thought it was a bad idea. To be honest, I thought part of the problem with this scene besides employing it with the wrong characters, drawing it out too long in a grandeur manner, and establishing little to no plot was the fact that I thought it wasn't absurd enough. I'm not talking about directing here, but content. The grandeur and egotistical nature of Shinbo's directing this episode just did not match the content. It simply wasn't as racy or titillating as one would expect for fanservice. It was just boring, the worst kind of bad to me.

SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience. That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?

If people enjoy it, all the more power to them. As I said before, I can only comment on how I see it.

Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning? Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself. The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.

All sorts of shows have more mundane interactions and that's fine. However, we're talking about a show who prides itself on stretching conversations to their limit. Often its entertaining, sometimes a bit over indulgent isntead. Nisemonogatari specifically though has had glacial pacing though. Bake was much more crisp and refined in comparison. The indulgences are worst than ever. To me Bake was at its best when it didn't try to lay it on too thick in any one particular scene. Even though for comparison we had a long scene with Hitagi dressing in like episode 2 of Bake, even though a good amount of the dialogue was more comedic at first, it quickly translated over to more pertinent information about what was going on and revealed more about their personalities (Stuff that wasn't simply silly).

The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush. My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.

OK. Let me rephrase. They might use it as a forced stunt to bring them closer and give sexual tension between the two. Fine. Do I think that is a good direction to take with their relationship? No, it's just a tease and is stupid to me. Do I think this will have led to anything that significant that wasn't already established? Definitely not. If Nisio proves me wrong, lets see it, but for now I'll say this... It's irrelevant in the sense it will generate almost no interesting development for me.

The principle advice I can offer here is only that, in my experience, Nishio remembers his details and characters. Even within these adaptations into anime, we have already seen several callbacks in this manner towards various details of Bakemonogatari. My other detailed experience with Nishio's work, Medaka Box, also shares this characteristic. So I can only say that, for any insignificant event that you pick up on in these series--don't worry, Nishio will remember it.

In this case though, is it something worth remembering? My answer is no.

[DragoZERO]

What did I just watch!? My god... brushing her teeth.... I am in shock........

........Eri Kitamara was perfect too. Damn.... using a toothbrush........

LOL at the poll.

This will go down in anime history forever.

[apr]

I think the complainers are underestimating just how important the toothbrush scene was. It is without a shadow of a doubt the absolute best scene in the entire novel series, and every Nishio fan knows that the only reason to produce a Nisemonogatari anime would be to animate that specific scene. Giving it anything less than an episode would have been sacrilege, and everyone would have boycotted the blu-rays.

[Proto]

^

*can't stop laughing my ass off*

Oh Nisemonogatari. You just make my day every time.

Now on serious mode

It is without a shadow of a doubt the absolute best scene in the entire novel series

I think you are making a very serious disservice to the series and Nisio's writing if you seriously think that.

[Master_Yoma]

What the hell did I just watch

[00Coyote]

The principle advice I can offer here is only that, in my experience, Nishio remembers his details and characters. Even within these adaptations into anime, we have already seen several callbacks in this manner towards various details of Bakemonogatari. My other detailed experience with Nishio's work, Medaka Box, also shares this characteristic. So I can only say that, for any insignificant event that you pick up on in these series--don't worry, Nishio will remember it.
Now that I think about it, Araragi's choice of a toothbrush as a test may be an indirect callback to the first part of Bakemonogatari. My connection refuses to stream, so I can't re-watch that particular part. (and I refuse to download Horrible Subs.)

When Araragi was first assaulted by Hitagi, there was a mention of how he had to go to the dentist at one point, and it scared him for life, so he made sure to keep his teeth in perfect condition. Then in the character commentary on that episode, Hitagi makes the comment that Araragi had really good teeth.

First she had me open my mouth with the thin cutter-knife, and followed up with the stapler – the level of premeditation in her plan was frightening.

Damn, the last time I had things stuck into my mouth was when I was undergoing treatment for a tooth infection. So that I never had to repeat that experience, I brushed my teeth every day, I chewed gum to remove parasites- But now, I was faced with a situation just as bad... but this time, I didn't have any gum that might somehow get rid of a stapler. Or a knife.

What a way to trip someone up.
Araragi is no stranger to dental hygiene.

[Elestia]

New fetish indeed. Just found this comment on a blog and just had to post this.

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

[0utf0xZer0]

First time I watched this episode I hated it. However, as with several other cases of subpar scenes in Bake/Nise, I enjoyed it far, far more the second time through.

If I had to cite a culprit, it would be Koyomi's internal monologues, which I paid less attention to the second time. I know that Shaft was probably trying to remain true to the source (always a big deal for otaku-oriented productions), but I think the scene would have been far, far better if they had cut all of Koyomi's lines after "Kanbaru-sensei's fetishtic ideas will lead to your defeat" until the Tsuhiki shows up. Show don't tell, and let the viewer wonder if it's "really happening" and "Koyomi couldn't possible be that much of a creep, right? He always resists Nadeko, after all.". Besides, Koyomi's interactions with girls are always full of teasing/trolling - I'd go so far as to say the teasing/trolling interactions are the special sauce that makes Bakemonogatari's fanservice so great.

Plus, the monologues were kind of squicky too, which honestly ruined some of my enjoyment. I mean yeah, we know Koyomi has groped Mayoi before, but there was always this tongue in cheek "it's just a bit of roughousing gone too far" element to it. Here, not so much.

I guess my general opinion could be summed up as "could have been great, but due to some bad decision it's not nearly as good as most of the service in the show". Mainly because it doesn't nail the teasing nature of most Monogatari fanservice.

[Essa Maneira]

That episode makes me excited to watch those two doing on the bed. Toothbrush makes even feel better on my perspective. :heh::heh:

10/10 for me. :p

[Triple_R]

It can be unecessary, but if people respond positively or negatively to it then the meaning has been already established.

I disagree. People can respond positively or negatively to senseless violence, for example, but that doesn't make the violence any less senseless (i.e. give it meaning).


Really? I think giving people a toothbrush fetish counts as a startling event.

Yes, really. It's not much of a toothbrush fetish if all it's going to be used for is cleaning the teeth and mouth. This episode really was quite silly, and not even believable, imo. It reminds me of a lot of some other cases of SHAFT being SHAFT silliness that you'll see sometimes. I like SHAFT, but there's no question that Shinbo sometimes takes it over the line into total silliness.

If you're going to start a new fetish, the way it's executed should at least be half-way plausible, imo, and it wasn't here.


And I would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the lowest score possible because of it.

Some critics could easily say that they would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the highest score possible because of it and it alone. ;)

The way a lot of the 10/10 folks have talked on this thread, this scene is the reason why they gave 10/10. So if one scene alone can warrant the highest score possible, then why shouldn't one scene alone warrant the lowest score possible?

If you're going to criticize 1/10 voters for this shouldn't you also criticize 10/10 voters who made that vote due to one scene?


Really, it's fine if they don't like it, but it is bad criticism when people fault the entire episode on that particular scene.

I disagree. If a scene ruins an episode for you then it ruined the episode for you. It's not narrow, especially when you consider that what came at the end of an episode can shape your understanding of what came before it.


Ironically, there is a "certain arrogance to that" as you wrote

I don't think so. There's no arrogance in simply being honest about how much a particular scene affected you personally and your enjoyment of an episode.


Besides that, SHAFT took cliched concept and presented to the audience in a unique spin that makes it original.

I disagree. I do not consider this to be original at all. What determines originality is the idea or premise behind something, not the mere vehicle used to achieve it, imo.


It's really similar to how Haruhi became such an internet phenomenon. Like Nise, Haruhi took a cliched setting, changed the premise slightly with great execution and presentation made it into an internet phenomenon. Combined with SHAFT's usual visual flairs and style they managed to deliver an experience that will make a long lasting impression on me and probably everyone who watched that scene.

I very much doubt it'll leave a long lasting impression on me, so I disagree with you here.


Even right now I'm unconsciously cataloging episode 8 in my mind as "DAT TOOTHBRUSH SCENE".

Didn't you just say that people shouldn't judge an entire episode by a lone scene? That strikes me as being a bit inconsistent with cataloging an entire episode by reference to one lone scene within it. ;)


I do not think Sol is arguing that this episode was "Nishio's best handling of dialogue", so what is your point?

My point is that his argument is most valid when Nishio's dialogue is at its best. When it's not at its best, character interactions can become less effective, hence causing them to take less of a center-stage role.

[sa547]

Oh, man, even Gen has a reaction:
https://twitter.com/#!/Butch_Gen/status/173456966801297408

Regaining my sanity enough to work after Nisemonogatari 8 is going to be very difficult

His followers reacted:
@Butch_Gen seen you doing anyway toothpaste or how would!
@Butch_Gen anime teacher and staff Nishio dreadful · do not you came back from the distant future is absolutely reason I saw was two times · talk · God has just bought!
@Butch_Gen I think and I do brush your teeth.

[HandofFate]

I've brushed my dog's teeth many times, and he always hates it.
maybe i'm doing it wrong.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Now that we know this chapter was created not for mass market, but for the author's personal pleasure, the question is this;

Which is selling out, and which is art? To create something you genuinely personally enjoy creating? Or to make something that gets high acclaim by adhering to social demands?

I can't help but feel some of the rage is similar to those generated in Haruhi's infamous Endless Eight incident.

Sometimes, people take a risk. They create something they wanted to make, something unorthodox, and with not a care about public opinion.

The question is, would you like that to cease? Would you like anime and novels to be written according to the whims of opinion polls? Does the author's vision mean so little, that one should over-ride their wishes and demand something else?

[Archon_Wing]

Now that we know this chapter was created not for mass market, but for the author's personal pleasure, the question is this;

Which is selling out, and which is art? To create something you genuinely personally enjoy creating? Or to make something that gets high acclaim by adhering to social demands?

I can't help but feel some of the rage is similar to those generated in Haruhi's infamous Endless Eight incident.

Sometimes, people take a risk. They create something they wanted to make, something unorthodox, and with not a care about public opinion.

The question is, would you like that to cease? Would you like anime and novels to be written according to the whims of opinion polls? Does the author's vision mean so little, that one should over-ride their wishes and demand something else?

No. They can write whatever they want, and I will say whatever I want. They can take whatever risks they want, but they will also accept consequences like random people on the internet complaining about it. :p Like they care.

And if they don't care about public opinion, this is pretty moot anyways.

False dilemma is false dilemma. Things don't justify themselves. I won't play that game.

[Kaoru Chujo]

It's great to hear so many differing shades of opinion. For what it's worth, here are some of my shades:

1. In general, I think Nise is at a lower level than Bake. But maybe that's because doing a similar thing a second time has less impact. In any case, it seems to me that the fanservicey surface is a bit stronger and the character/interaction depth a bit weaker. But what a surface! And the characters and their interactions are still pretty great.

2. The toothbrushing scene is among the most erotic I've seen in anime. I disagree completely with the idea that it is less effective than other fanservice in this show. This is a classic. Of course, so was the Shinobu/Koyomi bathing scene, although it was not particularly erotic.

3. For me, it is certainly possible for an unoriginal premise to be presented in an original way. However, I think you have to be pretty general to define anything unoriginal about this scene. Like "erotic feelings between an older brother and a younger sister." Everything else seems original.

4. I think there is usually meaning in the supposed silliness that people call "Shaft being Shaft." And even when the meaning is less obvious, I think of the "silliness" as "absurdity," which is a conceptually higher thing.

5. Even though there is no chance that Koyomi and Karen will really hook up, that does not detract from but contributes to the erotic tension of the scene, for me.

6. Shinbou may have said that he does it for the money, but that is just Shinbou being Shinbou. Most artists do all their best work for money. Money is only part of the motivation. Once you start to work, your creativity takes over.

[Sol Falling]

About "not getting the joke": You can get a joke and still not find it funny. Take a racist joke for example (not saying this episode is anywhere near that; just using this to demonstrate a point). I can understand what such a racist joke is getting at, but not find it funny.

Humour being subjective, I don't think such a state qualifies as truly "getting it". You might understand the intent behind the telling of the joke, but if you cannot yourself find the least bit of humour in receiving it, then I wager you are not understanding the audience which appreciates it.

Now, one might well feel that there is no good reason to attempt to "understand" racists. But anime is a matter of entertainment; and in Nisemonogatari's case, mass entertainment, representing the enjoyment of a very sizeable audience. All human perspectives deserving at least some level of base respect and dignity, at least on trivial matters such as these regarding fiction and entertainment, I do not feel there is any meaning in criticizing the enjoyment of that majority.

That is to say, like another poster said, I do feel regret that some people were not satisfied with this episode. However, those people who were not satisfied should also try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many others over this episode.


No. I honestly think this is a bit naive. My suspicion is that Nishio's enjoyment came primarily (if not solely) from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages.

It's statements like these which occasionally make me think you might be more cynical than myself, Triple_R. :P As a matter of gratuity, there is a lot more you could do beyond a rather tame scene of a sibling brushing the teeth of another. Given the level of even some other works which Ishin himself has published, I would also assure you Nishio is/was aware of such possibilities. For pornography, there is actual porn; all the moreso if Nishio was never going to publish it. On that basis, I present the hypothesis that the actual justification/amusement Nishio found for that scene's creation was in the absurd context supporting the erotica (brushing the teeth of one's sister).

I found the BGM extremely cheesy. It thankfully lowered the squick level, but also made it impossible for me to take this scene seriously at all, undermining any significant character development that could be read into it. The Looney Tunes-esque bit certainly didn't help here.

This is part of where it's helpful to, as I suggested, take "everything and nothing" seriously. As a matter of fact, life and people themselves do not always have meaning, or are not always serious. Nisemonogatari's publication, as a work of self-amusement for Nishio, itself seems to be an example of this. If we accept this premise, then the point which I was getting at would be that while there is nothing at all which says you have to take the scenes or character interactions themselves seriously, you do have to understand that they are part of Nisemonogatari's world. As such, even events which occur in these "non-serious" sequences will have repurcussions, with every chance of impacting even serious developments down the line.

One prominent example of this which I do now have knowledge of regards a previous example of fanservice which I remember you noted as seeming ill-fitting as an introduction to the series--namely Hanekawa's panty-shot. I think certain posters (such as Malkuth) might be able to provide a better summary of why that event actually has a surprising degree of significance, but if you are interested I would be willing to make an attempt myself in explaining it, perhaps over PM as you suggested.

Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.

On one level, I would callback here to the point I have just made previously, that even life and people themselves do not always have meaning--a fact which thematically Nisemonogatari actually seems to be keenly aware of (noting Kaiki's comments regarding himself and Senjougahara as non-"dramatic" characters, whose lives and conflicts in "reality" do not actually have any special significance.).

In the same way it could probably be said that the *monogatari series as a whole is simply a trivial story regarding Araragi and his relationships. The narrative simply records Koyomi and his journey, the only two finite possible end points apparently being an eternity of solitude together with Shinobu, or a "proper" life as a redeemed human together with Hitagi. As an intermediate step on this journey, comes Koyomi's current entanglement with Karen (who has now twice openly stated she is in love with him). Even if this romantic/sexual tension never leads to an actual relationship, it must still at the least receive a resolution by narrative necessity (for example: what sort of developments will result upon Karen discovering that Koyomi has a girlfriend in Hitagi?).

If you like that sort of thing. Clearly not everybody does.

I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.

My position is basically that if some people didn't like this episode, then that's unfortunate, but they should also take into account the positive reception from a large part of the rest of this community as well as the general reception across the internet (and, of especial interest, in Japan as well). Certainly it is fine for them to hold onto their own opinion, but there is no need to begrudge the praise from the people who did enjoy it and, to the extent that they choose to engage in discussion, they should attempt to understand the other side. I don't have any trouble acknowledging the validity of opinions which simply state that they did not share in the enjoyment of the other side; however, I think it's necessary to state that any attempts to "objectively" offer any criticism of the episode should both take into account and not attempt to disrespect the enjoyment of the rest of the audience at large.

[Triple_R]

Given how far the originality vs. unoriginality argument has gone, I just searched for "toothbrush as a sex toy" on Google. I'd link to some of what I brought up, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate given AS rules. :heh: So I'd just encourage other people curious about it to try it themselves.

Based on my search, toothbrush as a sex toy is a lot more common than I had ever imagined.

[Archon_Wing]

While it is narrow minded to refuse to look at something from another perspective and to not acknowledge that certain things have purpose, it would also help to understand nothing is universally appreciated. Not even boobs! :p

For example, when i think of very thought provoking and deep anime, I grab something like Serial Experiments Lain. It was thoughtful and didn't waste a single second of its time, flooding every scene with subtlety and thought about the world it created and its characters. Now, plenty of people dismiss it as boring and unengaged, and I could scream at them for not getting it. But honestly, just saying to people "You don't understand the genius of this" doesn't help. If it didn't reach them, then the message didn't work. It's not necessarily the fault of the creator, but it's not always the fault of the viewer. The first goal of watching anime tends to be entertaining. It's hard to come up with something that is widely considered engaging and thought provoking. I don't lecture them on how to watch.

So one shouldn't be frustrated and dismiss people for not understanding something and pulling out "tons of people think it's genius" is not helping the cause either.

There are also anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion, an anime that is beautifully directed but has some controversial messages. If someone is fundamentally opposed to its message, it doesn't mean they are idiots that didn't try to understand it. (sometimes...) Some people did get the message and refused it.

A long time ago, I made a joking term called "KyoAni exceptionalism", meaning I felt that Kyoani shows seemed to be immune to criticism. That is, they could get away with stuff that other shows can't. Let's just say if Shakugan no Shana II aired 8 episodes of the same thing, then I don't think people would be defending that as much. :p I'm not debating that here, but I'm wondering. Why does Nisemongatari require that I give it so much leeway and spend so much time figuring out on why something it does is legitimate, while generic ecchi series #36 gets panned for tossing in fanservice? Would you guys laugh at me, if say I tried to explain away scenes in Yosuga no Sora such as "No, it just shows the closeness in the relationship!" Because I could, yet a lot of you would just laugh at me.

My point is that for a show to give me such a leeway, it has to be earned. Has monogatari invited me to think deeply about these things? Once in a while I guess. I'm not necessarily a fan, but I find the show amusing, so I guess that's what matters in the end.

TL;DR You can't force people to like things. Sometimes they do get it but just don't give a damn. Life's too short.

[0utf0xZer0]

2. The toothbrushing scene is among the most erotic I've seen in anime. I disagree completely with the idea that it is less effective than other fanservice in this show. This is a classic. Of course, so was the Shinobu/Koyomi bathing scene, although it was not particularly erotic.

Regardless, I'm curious as to what you think of my idea that the scene would have been more effective if Koyomi's monologue had ended with "Kanbaru-sensei's fetishtic ideas will lead to your defeat". Normally I'm a big fan of Bake/Nise dialogue, but I really do think that this is a case where it might have been better to go back to "show, don't tell" - although my own attempt to simulate this (AKA flipping the subs off during the scene) suggests this would necessitate shortening the scene as well.



6. Shinbou may have said that he does it for the money, but that is just Shinbou being Shinbou. Most artists do all their best work for money. Money is only part of the motivation. Once you start to work, your creativity takes over.

He probably doesn't want to admit he does it for the women:
http://cowboybibimbop.soup.io/post/152680098/
:heh:

[Triple_R]

Now, one might well feel that there is no good reason to attempt to "understand" racists. But anime is a matter of entertainment; and in Nisemonogatari's case, mass entertainment, representing the enjoyment of a very sizeable audience.

I know some things that I don't find entertaining in the least that are far, far more popular than any anime show, with much larger audiences by several magnitudes.

Should I endeavor to embrace Twilight and its fandom's enjoyment of it, or should I be true to my own tastes in entertainment? ;)

Most people I know disagree with the notion that "popular" automatically equals "good quality entertainment".


All human perspectives deserving at least some level of base respect and dignity, at least on trivial matters such as these regarding fiction and entertainment, I do not feel there is any meaning in criticizing the enjoyment of that majority.

People criticize the very popular when they think it doesn't deserve the popularity.

My suspicion is that most people here have done that at least one time or another - Lambasted Twilight or disliked how people make such a big deal out of Reality TV or rage at Michael Bay movies doing so well.

It's only natural, imo.




That is to say, like another poster said, I do feel regret that some people were not satisfied with this episode. However, those people who were not satisfied should also try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many others over this episode.

Should somebody who hates Michael Bay movies try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many Transformers fans?


It's statements like these which occasionally make me think you might be more cynical than myself, Triple_R. :P As a matter of gratuity, there is a lot more you could do beyond a rather tame scene of a sibling brushing the teeth of another.

So you think this scene is rather tame? If so, why is it worth hyping up at all? ;)

No, judging by audience reaction, it wasn't tame. I think Nishio was aiming to sexually arouse himself (which is his right, I'm not questioning that), not merely to engage in absurdity for its own sake.


As a matter of fact, life and people themselves do not always have meaning, or are not always serious.

Loads of people disagree with that, and I think that I myself do (unless I'm misreading you here). Do not just assume that philosophical opinions are "facts".


One prominent example of this which I do now have knowledge of regards a previous example of fanservice I remember you noting seemed ill-fitting as an introduction to the series--namely Hanekawa's panty-shot. I think certain posters (such as Malkuth) might be able to provide a better summary of why that event actually has a surprising degree of significance,

It was foreshadowing, from what I can recall reading about it. The anime could have progressed decently without it. It's fine if people enjoyed it, but it's also fine for other people (like myself) to consider it a rather loud (for good or for ill) way to kick off a series.


In the same way it could probably be said that the *monogatari series as a whole is simply a trivial story regarding Araragi and his relationships. The narrative simply records Koyomi and his journey, the only two finite end points being an eternity of solitude together with Shinobu or a "proper" life as a redeemed human together with Hitagi. As an intermediate step on this journey, comes Koyomi's current entanglement with Karen (who has now twice openly stated she is in love with him). Even if this romantic/sexual tension never leads to an actual relationship, it must still at the least receive a resolution by narrative necessity (for example: what sort of developments will result upon Karen discovering that Koyomi has a girlfriend in Hitagi?).

But such a resolution means that if such romantic/sexual tension was never there in the first place it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Now if Karen goes and does something extreme based on her feelings - Like, say, get in a fight with Hitagi - Then that's different. But if she just begrudgingly accepts Koyomi/Hitagi then I really don't see much point to this episode, and certainly not to the fanservice scene in question.

[omimon]

I see things have finally quiet down after two days of heavy debate.

Anyways you gotta love that incest whether or not it was needed or not.

[Sol Falling]

Thoughtful replies get thoughtful answers.

...

However, authors may have intentions and they may genuinely try to do something they think is interesting, and in the end... I might not like it. Does not matter if I don't get it or not, I just thought it was a bad idea. To be honest, I thought part of the problem with this scene besides employing it with the wrong characters, drawing it out too long in a grandeur manner, and establishing little to no plot was the fact that I thought it wasn't absurd enough. I'm not talking about directing here, but content. The grandeur and egotistical nature of Shinbo's directing this episode just did not match the content. It simply wasn't as racy or titillating as one would expect for fanservice. It was just boring, the worst kind of bad to me.

I will say here, that I can somewhat understand where this perspective is coming from. Echoing also Clarste's earlier comment expressing that, for all the hype the toothbrush scene got, he might have expected something even more outrageous. From my own perspective, my reaction was somewhat mild, laughing a bit at all the absurdity but making a lot of the more explosive reactions across the internet clearly exaggerated. However, it was the sheer number and strength of those positive reactions which convinced that this episode was worth voicing my praise and voting for. I think it was great and was personally very happy to witness this episode generating that much of a reaction from the audience. That's why I've been posting in defense of it.


On your other criticisms, all I can say is that while I can understand your personal distaste towards fanservice and incest themes, they are an integral part of the *monogatari series (particularly the fanservice). While it is likely true, as other posters have stated, that this Nisemonogatari season will feature the most excessive and egregious amount of it, it is essentially a certainty that this sort of thing will always be present through all of the series. Furthermore, although you've stated your admiration for Nishio, I wonder if you can accept that the perversion/eroticism on display here is very much a genuine part of his work as a writer. Nishio writes for the gratuity of the audience as much as he writes for the gratuity of his own self, all the while interspersing it with true ideas and emotions he wishes to convey to the audience. So you should probably prepare yourself to see stuff like this pop up again and continue.


I know some things that I don't find entertaining in the least that are far, far more popular than any anime show, with much larger audiences by several magnitudes.

Should I endeavor to embrace Twilight and its fandom's enjoyment of it, or should I be true to my own tastes in entertainment? ;)

Most people I know disagree with the notion that "popular" automatically equals "good quality entertainment".

People criticize the very popular when they think it doesn't deserve the popularity.

My suspicion is that most people here have done that at least one time or another - Lambasted Twilight or disliked how people make such a big deal out of Reality TV or rage at Michael Bay movies doing so well.

It's only natural, imo.

Should somebody who hates Michael Bay movies try to balance their own dissatisfaction with the enjoyment of so many Transformers fans?

...It might come as a surprise to you that I actually would disagree with any person who spends time criticizing the tastes of an obvious majority. Twilight is successful because it appeals to a specific demographic--that demographic has as much right to its own tastes as any other person or group of people. My own course of action according to my disinterest in Twilight is to simply avoid discussions involving it entirely. In the event that I would like to expand the tastes of the Twilight demographic, or an individual Twilight fan, rather than criticizing their interests or calling them "shallow" I would simply endeavour to show them something even better. If there is any such work which could in fact be called "undeserving" of its popularity, that fact will independently make itself known without criticism as people grow tired of it and move onto something more interesting.

For the record, my maxim is "popular is better". The works which manage to reach all of humanity are far more significant than the ones which find only a niche audience (uneven factors like distribution and marketing do come in, but as a general rule a work's quality can be measured by it's ability to reach out to its audience). Nisemonogatari and Bakemonogatari are presently two of the most outstanding works in the anime medium, and if SHAFT manages to complete the entire light novel series to consistent ~60000 sales averages, they will surely have legitimately made history.

So you think this scene is rather tame? If so, why is it worth hyping up at all? ;)

No, judging by audience reaction, it wasn't tame. I think Nishio was aiming to sexually arouse himself (which is his right, I'm not questioning that), not merely to engage in absurdity for its own sake.

It's worth hyping because people enjoyed it, and far more people than could be reached with just any work of gratuity. Whether for 1) managing to convey an extraordinary degree of absurdist humour which pulled in even audiences not normally inclined to celebrate blatant gratuity, or 2) managing to convey an extraordinary degree of eroticism unexpectedly despite the externally tame parameters of "brushing the teeth of one's sister", the scene reached a wider audience than is achievable with conventional fanservice (as well evidenced by comparison to the response generated by earlier fanservice scenes in this very show). The extent of those positive reactions are what justify the praise it has received (not least from myself) as a consequence.

Loads of people disagree with that, and I think that I myself do (unless I'm misreading you here). Do not just assume that philosophical opinions are "facts".

All I can say here is that it is a "philosophical opinion" supported in the text of the story itself, as well as one characteristic of Nishio Ishin who went so far as to title his debut series of novels Zaregoto (戯言, literally "nonsense"). Nishio Ishin's writings may or may not often attempt to achieve genuine "meaning", but they are also pervasively and keenly aware of the nearpossible futility of doing so.

It was foreshadowing, from what I can recall reading about it. The anime could have progressed decently without it. It's fine if people enjoyed it, but it's also fine for other people (like myself) to consider it a rather loud (for good or for ill) way to kick off a series.

Actually, that is incorrect. It's a reference to something much more important than that. If you'd like to know more, I suppose I could PM you the spoilers.

[Reckoner]

I will say here, that I can somewhat understand where this perspective is coming from. Echoing also Clarste's earlier comment expressing that, for all the hype the toothbrush scene got, he might have expected something even more outrageous. From my own perspective, my reaction was somewhat mild, laughing a bit at all the absurdity but making a lot of the more explosive reactions across the internet clearly exaggerated. However, it was the sheer number and strength of those positive reactions which convinced that this episode was worth voicing my praise and voting for. I think it was great and was personally very happy to witness this episode generating that much of a reaction from the audience. That's why I've been posting in defense of it.

I find some of your reasoning odd. I get the idea that how people react as a group to it weighs in on your assessing of its quality. Sure some works of art that manage to transcend time and be remembered for eons afterwards are worthy of some praise, but we will never really know if Bake is an example of this in the anime medium. It takes a lot to become like Gundam, or Evangelion. I respect that these series have managed to become timeless, but even if I respect that I don't think I have to like it. Personal meaning and opinion should always be the dominant factor here? If you truly got mild entertainment out of it, shouldn't you only assess it mildly? I don't know that's just me.

Now I'm not saying that people couldn't genuinely find this good, to me it's just not my cup of tea. However, I do express certain concerns regarding the narrative structure of nisemonogatari as a whole and it's why this provoked out of me an upset reaction. Thanks for being understanding anyways :)


On your other criticisms, all I can say is that while I can understand your personal distaste towards fanservice and incest themes, they are an integral part of the *monogatari series (particularly the fanservice). While it is likely true, as other posters have stated, that this Nisemonogatari season will feature the most excessive and egregious amount of it, it is essentially a certainty that this sort of thing will always be present through all of the series. Furthermore, although you've stated your admiration for Nishio, I wonder if you can accept that the perversion/eroticism on display here is very much a genuine part of his work as a writer. Nishio writes for the gratuity of the audience as much as he writes for the gratuity of his own self, all the while interspersing it with true ideas and emotions he wishes to convey to the audience. So you should probably prepare yourself to see stuff like this pop up again and continue.


I'm not a huge fan of fanservice no, but I feel the uses of fanservice in Nise are nowhere near as clever or as suave as that of Bake. To bring up Nisio's more zesty moments in Katanagatari for example, I always found the sexual imagery there to be rather hilarious and amusing. I realize that's part of him as a writer, but sometimes creators can take things too far. For me he uses those elements most strongly when he keeps himself in control. Right now it's hard to distinguish between his use of fanservice here and the use of fanservice in something like Strike Witches.

But like I said before, I found the Shinobu scene to be far more explicit in every way, and yet that didn't bother me in the slightest. I actually had no problems there.

[Ceral]

That toothbrushing scene was awesome, it has me elated enough to want to come to this forum and... I dunno... celebrate such a great episode? While watching the scene I entered one of those trances where you forget about everything else and just enjoy every moment.

Since this is Shaft, I only expect insanity, and since Koyomi likes to molest elementary girls, I really don't hold any standards to him, so I just watch.

These guys are nuts and I think they're driving me nuts, but I love it. Every little bizzare detail, like the shining "blimp skeleton", hanging in the room, it makes me think "wtf is that doing in his room?". And after the brushing scene they have a moment where they show it glittering? With it's shape? Lol, "You crazy bastards".

A few years ago, I would have thought wtf is all this shit and struggled to make sense of it. But the best part about this show is that they don't hold to convention, that they can go completely ape shit with any scene, e.g. Tsukihi breaking through walls to leave the house, or more subtle details like her having triangle eyes. I don't read the forums or the novel, so an episode devoted to erotically brushing your little sisters teeth was completely unexpected. Yet you expect the unexpected when watching the show. That's the beauty of it. Of course, leave it to Shaft to make such a scene so awesome. A part of me wishes every episode were like this.

[Skyfall]

Personally I didn't think much of the toothbrush scene. I suppose I have never seen tooth brushing presented in anime like that, so there was a certain novelty factor to it, but most it did was raise a few eyebrows from me for the sheer absurdity of it. (No objections to a hot and bothered Karen though ... she should consider wearing those clothes more often!).

All in all Nisemonogatari is choke-full of absurdity and exaggeration, so this very much felt like just another day in the Nise world. The incestuous undertones didn't really sway me one way or another (I'm pretty neutral on the subject in general and see it just as another vessel for storytelling in case of anime, so it neither excites or offends me on it's own), but it did get a few good chuckles out of me (Koyomi's "evil" faces in particular :heh:), so overall I was mildly entertained with the bizareness of it all - just like with the show on a whole.

What does strike me a bit odd though is seeing several complaints about this episode lacking connection or relevance to the overall plot. And that's something I find very hard to emphasize with ... or even strange to see brought up in the first place. When has Nisemonogatari ever been plot-driven, it has always been about bizarre character interactions in a bizarre setting where bizarre things happen, everything else being coincidental.

I'd go so far as to say that plot is nonexistent here in the first place, and what little of it there is occasionally - irrelevant beyond the self contained mini-arc it exists within, serving as a reason for even more bizarre character interactions. Bewildering character interactions and weird chemistry is all the show is about, and plot is simply something that accidentally happens at times as said character interactions demand it. The series depends on it's setting, not plot, to keep doing what it does and as a stage for the characters to shine on. Be it the recurring con-man issue, or something as silly as Araragi spending half an episode wrestling with naked Kanbaru while discussing how much of a pervert she is.

So ... yeah, I can certainly see why one would be displeased with the episode if said particular character interaction dosage wasn't to their liking, or find it unassuming if it didn't arose any particular reaction as is the case for me, but suddenly bringing up plot relevance ? What? When has that ever been relevant (or even a constant present) for Nisemonogatari! :eyespin:

[papermario13689]

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

"Do you know of the term 'verbal abuse'?"
"Then call the verbal abuse police."

"What flooded on top and fire underneath?"
"A water heater, right?"
"No, it's Kanbaru Suruga's house."

I already felt like Nisemonogatari was pushing the envelope of fanservice, but I could easily look past it because that atmosphere and dialogue were always around. What happened in this episode? They sat in Koyomi's room and performed for a softcore porn. No grandeur shows of atmosphere. No mention of clever dialect. No charm that the Monogatari series always gave me. It kind of sucks when my favourite part of the episode becomes the new opening credits, especially when it's Nisemonogotari.

I know Bakemonogatari has done this before, but even so, this episode should not have been called "Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 1". I'm very worried by the sight of all the praise and 10/10s this episode is getting; it's because of things like this that our anime industry is turning into a sappy, money-grubbing moefest. I actually got worried about future anime for the first time when I glanced at the Spring 2012 list. "Stereotypical". "Uninspired". "Shallow". Those are the words I'd use to describe it. This is the first time I've ever backed away from an upcoming list feeling like I'm about to be cheated. I won't judge a book by its cover, so I will give whatever catches my eye a chance, but I have this terrible feeling I'll be left with very little.

Jesus, even Amagami SS+ started throwing amplified amounts of fanservice with Kaoru lately, along with Zero no Tsukaima F being unable to decide what it wants to do and resorting back to breast jokes. Now Nisemonogatari. Watch, now Mirai Nikki with Another will do it to me. I'm actually scared it will. The fans drool over any show of jiggling breasts and direct blasts of moe, so why not publish what's popular? I don't hate moe and fanservice, just keep those damn elements in their rightful places and think about how much to put in at the appropriate times. I feel like someone's putting a sudden and gory decapitation scene into a talking scene from Inception because people screamed for blood. I feel like Hannibal Lecter suddenly turned into a one-dimensional goody two shoes because the fans might have preferred his helpful nature towards Starling. I feel like Sweeney Todd became a regular barber because people didn't like his spiteful nature. It's not just anime, but movies and media all around nowadays. Not everything has to be a Clannad: After Story. All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.

[-Sho-]

I see things have finally quiet down after two days of heavy debate.

Anyways you gotta love that incest whether or not it was needed or not.


What's wrong to not like incest ? I don't know if you got a family but incest is sick for me. The toothbrush was pretty amusing here but the incest was a no for me. This scene was purely made for fanservice and guess what , it worked very well.
So , let's be honest , this series went on the fanservice marketing side sorry.
And come on , Araragi always say that he deeply loves Hitagi but just this scene killed his honesty. Dunno if he kissed her sister but that was too much. Break the coherence. Why MC always act like they don't have any gf when they do... unless it's japanese's tradition , i don't know much about on how a japanese couple work but i know on my side.

[risingstar3110]

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

"Do you know of the term 'verbal abuse'?"
"Then call the verbal abuse police."

"What flooded on top and fire underneath?"
"A water heater, right?"
"No, it's Kanbaru Suruga's house."

I already felt like Nisemonogatari was pushing the envelope of fanservice, but I could easily look past it because that atmosphere and dialogue were always around. What happened in this episode? They sat in Koyomi's room and performed for a softcore porn. No grandeur shows of atmosphere. No mention of clever dialect. No charm that the Monogatari series always gave me. It kind of sucks when my favourite part of the episode becomes the new opening credits, especially when it's Nisemonogotari.

I know Bakemonogatari has done this before, but even so, this episode should not have been called "Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 1". I'm very worried by the sight of all the praise and 10/10s this episode is getting; it's because of things like this that our anime industry is turning into a sappy, money-grubbing moefest. I actually got worried about future anime for the first time when I glanced at the Spring 2012 list. "Stereotypical". "Uninspired". "Shallow". Those are the words I'd use to describe it. This is the first time I've ever backed away from an upcoming list feeling like I'm about to be cheated. I won't judge a book by its cover, so I will give whatever catches my eye a chance, but I have this terrible feeling I'll be left with very little.

Jesus, even Amagami SS+ started throwing amplified amounts of fanservice with Kaoru lately, along with Zero no Tsukaima F being unable to decide what it wants to do and resorting back to breast jokes. Now Nisemonogatari. Watch, now Mirai Nikki with Another will do it to me. I'm actually scared it will. The fans drool over any show of jiggling breasts and direct blasts of moe, so why not publish what's popular? I don't hate moe and fanservice, just keep those damn elements in their rightful places and think about how much to put in at the appropriate times. I feel like someone's putting a sudden and gory decapitation scene into a talking scene from Inception because people screamed for blood. I feel like Hannibal Lecter suddenly turned into a one-dimensional goody two shoes because the fans might have preferred his helpful nature towards Starling. I feel like Sweeney Todd became a regular barber because people didn't like his spiteful nature. It's not just anime, but movies and media all around nowadays. Not everything has to be a Clannad: After Story. All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.
Hmm... welcome to 21st century media... i guess?

I means really brilliant shows with good and deep hidden meaning, creativity and explosive idea are no longer welcomed or earns their deserved profits. So we are down to shows with decent storyline (wow factors and such), good directing, interesting character interaction or character-driven plots (moe is classified here). And we can just look into this past few year for: Code Gears, Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi/K-On respectively.

Fan-services is just part of the problem. Anime fans tends to single it out as it's easy to blame on, but none can comes to admit that their preferences of these "masterpieces" shows were part of the problems ( just like how i can't give up on Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi)

[papermario13689]

What's wrong to not like incest ? I don't know if you got a family but incest is sick for me. The toothbrush was pretty amusing here but the incest was a no for me. This scene was purely made for fanservice and guess what , it worked very well.
So , let's be honest , this series went on the fanservice marketing side sorry.
And come on , Araragi always say that he deeply loves Hitagi but just this scene killed his honesty. Dunno if he kissed her sister but that was too much. Break the coherence. Why MC always act like they don't have any gf when they do... unless it's japanese's tradition , i don't know much about on how a japanese couple work but i know on my side.
Oh wow, you've actually pointed out another thing that bothered me- I thank you. What's with this sudden crap where Koyomi is feeling the hots for Hanekawa and Karen? In Bakemonogatari he said he loves Senjougahara, and I actually praised Nisemonogatari for continuing that to this point, but I guess Koyomi is a shallow, drooling idiot now.

Hmm... welcome to 21st century media... i guess?

I means really brilliant shows with good and deep hidden meaning, creativity and explosive idea are no longer welcomed or earns their deserved profits. So we are down to shows with decent storyline (wow factors and such), good directing, interesting character interaction or character-driven plots (moe is classified here). And we can just look into this past few year for: Code Gears, Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi/K-On respectively.

Fan-services is just part of the problem. Anime fans tends to single it out as it's easy to blame on, but none can comes to admit that their preferences of these "masterpieces" shows were part of the problems ( just like how i can't give up on Madoka, Bakemonogatari, and Haruhi)
I agree with you. Seriously, check out my MAL (http://myanimelist.net/animelist/papermario13689). I don't judge stuff harshly and as long as a series does its job in providing proper entertainment, I give it a nice score. The series that you've mentioned are all ones that I very much liked for their own reasons, even with the moe and fanservice attached.

The problem is this "21st Century media standard" you are speaking of. When this becomes the standard, I am not going to enjoy anime as I used to anymore. People hated Neon Genesis Evangelion's original series because of how it ended amongst other things, but I appreciated it in its own way. People rage on K-ON because it's got a ton of moe, but I appreciate it for its creative soundtrack and simplistic charms. Why hate on Shugo Chara because it's "girly"? Sure, it's so sugary sweet that one's teeth might rot whilst watching it, but how about the mentions of friendship, internal struggles and fighting for what's right? And no, I'm not a sappy individual who screams friendship everywhere.

Bottom line is, if something doesn't have a reason to be created aside from the basic appeal of showing breasts to mindless fans or throwing so many sparkles in your face that you don't even know what you're watching, it should be given a good look at. There's an audience out there that actually appreciate it for what it is, and I can respect that. It's just...let's please have a plot of sorts? Multi-dimensional characters, maybe? Throw in a proper soundtrack. Show me you care about what you're making. Personally, this is why "Kill Me Baby" was painful to watch for me. Lots of other people like it, that's fine. I personally just hope it doesn't become a standard that wipes out what I like as well.

P.S. 120+ people currently give this episode a perfect 10/10. I can't even believe my eyes.

[omimon]

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

"Do you know of the term 'verbal abuse'?"
"Then call the verbal abuse police."

"What flooded on top and fire underneath?"
"A water heater, right?"
"No, it's Kanbaru Suruga's house."

I already felt like Nisemonogatari was pushing the envelope of fanservice, but I could easily look past it because that atmosphere and dialogue were always around. What happened in this episode? They sat in Koyomi's room and performed for a softcore porn. No grandeur shows of atmosphere. No mention of clever dialect. No charm that the Monogatari series always gave me. It kind of sucks when my favourite part of the episode becomes the new opening credits, especially when it's Nisemonogotari.

I know Bakemonogatari has done this before, but even so, this episode should not have been called "Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 1". I'm very worried by the sight of all the praise and 10/10s this episode is getting; it's because of things like this that our anime industry is turning into a sappy, money-grubbing moefest. I actually got worried about future anime for the first time when I glanced at the Spring 2012 list. "Stereotypical". "Uninspired". "Shallow". Those are the words I'd use to describe it. This is the first time I've ever backed away from an upcoming list feeling like I'm about to be cheated. I won't judge a book by its cover, so I will give whatever catches my eye a chance, but I have this terrible feeling I'll be left with very little.

Jesus, even Amagami SS+ started throwing amplified amounts of fanservice with Kaoru lately, along with Zero no Tsukaima F being unable to decide what it wants to do and resorting back to breast jokes. Now Nisemonogatari. Watch, now Mirai Nikki with Another will do it to me. I'm actually scared it will. The fans drool over any show of jiggling breasts and direct blasts of moe, so why not publish what's popular? I don't hate moe and fanservice, just keep those damn elements in their rightful places and think about how much to put in at the appropriate times. I feel like someone's putting a sudden and gory decapitation scene into a talking scene from Inception because people screamed for blood. I feel like Hannibal Lecter suddenly turned into a one-dimensional goody two shoes because the fans might have preferred his helpful nature towards Starling. I feel like Sweeney Todd became a regular barber because people didn't like his spiteful nature. It's not just anime, but movies and media all around nowadays. Not everything has to be a Clannad: After Story. All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.

Okay, okay, I think we need calm down for a second. One single episode is NOT going to ruin anime. The industry isn't going to shit and the world is not ending. This episode was purely for shitz and giggles. Nisio wrote this scene simply because HE enjoyed it. He thought Nise was the end of this series so he went balls off the walls on the crazy stuff.

The whole concept of criticism has always been foreign to me simply because I don't it. When I see a series I don't like I DON'T watch it and I also DON'T go to the respective thread to trash it. If you go to my MAL then you'll see that I vote everything 10/10 because I believe every series has something it does perfectly right and that is enough reason for me to give it a 10. Hate is such a tiresome emotion so you won't ever catch me hating something. (At least not to the degree I have seen on this thread for the last couple of days)

I really want people to just enjoy things rather than hate it and if you really do, just avoid it. Why make a huge speech about what's wrong with something? I believe the secret to happiness is to be tolerant of the things you don't like and drop the pitchforks and torches. (Don't tell this to the oppressed people in the middle east though)

What's wrong to not like incest ? I don't know if you got a family but incest is sick for me. The toothbrush was pretty amusing here but the incest was a no for me. This scene was purely made for fanservice and guess what , it worked very well.
So , let's be honest , this series went on the fanservice marketing side sorry.
And come on , Araragi always say that he deeply loves Hitagi but just this scene killed his honesty. Dunno if he kissed her sister but that was too much. Break the coherence. Why MC always act like they don't have any gf when they do... unless it's japanese's tradition , i don't know much about on how a japanese couple work but i know on my side.

I think you misread what I wrote. I'm trying to say that incest is great (in anime) and that it's awesome even if it doesn't contribute to the story at all.

[risingstar3110]

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

[papermario13689]

Okay, okay, I think we need calm down for a second. One single episode is NOT going to ruin anime. The industry isn't going to shit and the world is not ending. This episode was purely for shitz and giggles. Nisio wrote this scene simply because HE enjoyed it. He thought Nise was the end of this series so he went balls off the walls on the crazy stuff.

The whole concept of criticism has always been foreign to me simply because I don't it. When I see a series I don't like I DON'T watch it and I also DON'T go to the respective thread to trash it. If you go to my MAL then you'll see that I vote everything 10/10 because I believe every series has something it does perfectly right and that is enough reason for me to give it a 10. Hate is such a tiresome emotion so you won't ever catch me hating something. (At least not to the degree I have seen on this thread for the last couple of days)

I really want people to just enjoy things rather than hate it and if you really do, just avoid it. Why make a huge speech about what's wrong with something? I believe the secret to happiness is to be tolerant of the things you don't like and drop the pitchforks and torches. (Don't tell this to the oppressed people in the middle east though)
As much as your ideology of one episode failing to bring down the industry is quite true, I speak of it as a branching point. An anchoring point. You say the author did it because he wanted to go all out to end it. I disagree. I ask you, why does fanservice exist? If you truly think it's to please the author, I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken. Fanservice exists to please the populous and to give them something to look at. The authors aren't all horny little bastards sitting alone in a basement writing up stories because they're lonely. They're real people. Professionals, who generally know exactly what the majority wants to see. It's a staple reason why debate exists- conflicting fanbases. The author has a choice to follow his own personal thoughts, or to give in to the screaming voices and do what most people might drool over. In the end, the world is a business, and we are but its mindless customers.

Now don't misinterpret that. There are plenty of fantastic authors out there who value what is right and can bring their series to a sensible consensus for the people who follow it. Bottom line is, this episode seriously felt unnecessary. Sudden incest, throwing away certain character traits, removing charm and interesting dialogue, and basically spending the entire time accentuating the magnitude of what was happening. I'm sorry, but I don't call that good writing. Good writing doesn't just quote/unquote "screw around for the sake of it", especially since it's a continuation. It'd be telling the first Lord of the Rings story, then throwing in magical spells and large-breasted women because a ton of fans wrote in asking for it. Now, I can appreciate that one must have fun while writing, and that in itself is an actual charm of writing. This overexaggerated scenario was seriously unneeded though, I strongly feel.

I can also respect your outlook and how you can give things 10/10 because you're not one for critique. Tell me something though, surely there must be genres of music you dislike? Television series you don't enjoy? Personalities that irritate you? It is important to establish a standard where you can stand in. It is why the concept of debate exists in our world, for without it we'd be blobs of amoeba that are all the same. Some people, like myself, enjoy sophistication and creativity in something I partake in. I don't give 10/10 unless it is absolutely flawless, or so very damn close that I can't give it a 9. I rarely have 10/10s, and you have a lot. That's totally fine. What I find is that there simply is too much in the world. If you spend the time loving everything, you'll never learn to hate. Hate is an ugly word, I agree, but it's a human emotion, and an important one at that. How about I say that I don't hate this episode, but I seriously feel like not watching it again?

Also, I think you might have the wrong perspective on a lot of the users here. Most people don't go into a thread to simply "trash" something. Trolls and flamers are generally well moderated, and I actually don't see a lot of them myself. No, you voice a strongly negative opinion on something because you truly found it to be bad, in your opinion. It's a personal viewpoint. Undeniably, debates and arguments WILL break out with conflicting views. It can't be helped, but it happens. The thing is, people might not show it, but we have something called influential behavioral patterns where debate WILL generally make them at least consider what their opposition is saying. Without even knowing it, some people change their viewpoint because their brain tells them the opposition's claims hold merit. Others are dedicated to their points and that's alright too. What's important is that you have your own opinion and I have mine. Not "agree to disagree", but much rather "agree to a consensus". Nobody is wrong.

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this
This is a good point. Standard, but good. It goes without saying that an original series will drag in the fanbase, and then the continuation will play on what made the original popular to continue the success. Like I said, it's all a business in the end. However, I think that way of plotting is a step in the wrong direction, quality-wise. Let's say you write up a novel that is insanely popular for portraying a historical war and its casualties on the human psyche. As a plot-pusher, you include a character who has lost his mind from all that has been happening, and is basically a ridiculous threat because he can't control who he attempts to kill. Now, it's a big hit and you need to make a sequel storyline. People like this insane madman much more than the interaction between the other characters. Do you reduce the story so more of this uncontrollable man can be given to the public? Sure, it'll sell like hotcakes, but you ARE trading off something equally precious at the same time.

I hate using this example, but I point one finger at Hayate no Gotoku. First season was a ridiculous comedy with a decent balance on the characters. Then Katsura Hinagiku takes the fanbase by storm and the second season mostly revolves around her. The comedy isn't as good, and we see less and less of the other fun characters the series had to offer. In context, people have been complaining about how short series have become as of late, but I stand firmly by the statement "quality over quantity". AnoHana was only 11 episodes, but I found it to be quite amazing, running through a gambit of emotions, stories and character development in something so short. Toradora is only 26 episodes, but damn, I feel like each character is cemented in stone and is true the entire way through. I'm not picky, I'm just one who wishes to feel like what I'm watching has a good point.

[Caithsith]

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

i thought Bakemonogatari was anything but mainstream and IMHO the most polarizing anime i've ever watched. Nise is more mainstream in regards of animation and plot progression.

[zarqu]

Sudden incest, throwing away certain character traits, removing charm and interesting dialogue, and basically spending the entire time accentuating the magnitude of what was happening.
Koyomi has always been a pervert. Now we know that much more about Karen too. And to what extent. This episode was an in-your-face eye opener for the more naive (and unspoiled viewers). They didn't compromise, they glorified the moment. The "silly" and "carnivalesque" music in the background enhanced the effect. I refer to A Clockwork Orang when similar classical music plays on the background when Alex and his droogs indulge in some ultra-violence. It seems like it's glorifying violence, and I'm watching the scene with a big grin on my face. What should I think of that? (Rhetorical question)

It was a significant episode as far as characterization goes. It's only "real development" if it's allowed to be, though. It would be a shame if this is left as a "one off" type of thing without any serious resolution. Given the fact that the characters continue to live on in the novel universe, I'm skeptical that everything will be resolved in the Nisemonogatari anime adaptation concerning Koyomi and Karen.

If that happens, the point of the episode will be exactly that: serious incestuous intent. Of course the usual criticism of "boring trope" and "tiring imouto fetish" apply, but I hope people understand why a fan would feel this is an... interesting (if not exciting) thing. Criticisms of pacing also apply, but Shaft went along and did it regardless. For that they do deserve all the flak if things go south later on. And all the praise (at least from fans of this episode) if they don't.

Of course in the age of the internet the hype built up and everyone wanted to glorify this moment and post how much they loved it. So it goes. Critics are perfectly valid to call into question the reaction of the community (use of words like "glorious", "outrageous", "original", "amazing" etc. when we are talking about a sex toy which is not that uncommon [in the real world]). But so it goes in a one massive circlejerk.

[Ceral]

Normally I'd find incest pretty gross, in RL for sure, but that's what's so hilarious about this episode. The way the viewer is walked through the scene through Koyomi's eyes so that they understand his thinking is brilliant. Clearly he himself detests the idea of falling in love with his own sister, yet he falls into a trap, one he set himself, and Karen being cute too sets it up for the viewer to at least be able to sympathize with him a little better. I really don't think pantyshots improve sells or viewership these days (More than just having a cute art-style), I think the best pantyshot is one that is done for comedic effect. I know pantyshots and the like aren't going to lead to anything, because this isn't a hentai, so they need to make it extreme in order to make it funny (And to push the envelope, which is what Shaft does.). The way it is overdone, because he is just brushing her teeth, just screams parody. I've seen hentai, this toothbrushing scene was done for hilarious comedic effect rather than arousal.

So don't worry, I doubt this becomes the norm. I don't know how you guys take this show so seriously. To me, this was just one episode that feels pretty much like a filler episode, that isn't even connected to the story (I can't imagine Koyomi actually falling for Karen or that being a major plot device in the future. Maybe if they get really desparate.) one episode that is a parody of their usual fanservice.

[papermario13689]

Koyomi has always been a pervert. Now we know that much more about Karen too. This episode was an in-your-face eye opener for the more naive (and unspoiled viewers). They didn't compromise, they glorified the moment. The "silly" and "carnivalesque" music in the background enhanced the effect. I refer to A Clockwork Orang when similar classical music plays on the background when Alex and his drooges indulge in some ultra-violence.

It was a significant episode as far as characterization goes. It's only "real development" if it's allowed to be, though. It would be a shame if this is left as a one off type of thing without any serious resolution. Given the fact that the characters continue to live on in the novel universe, I'm skeptical that everything will be resolved in the Nisemonogatari anime adaptation concerning Koyomi and Karen.

If that happens, the point of the episode will be exactly that: serious incestuous intent. Of course the usual criticism of "boring trope" and "tiring imouto fetish" apply, but I hope people understand why a fan would feel this is an... interesting (if not exciting) thing. Criticisms of pacing also apply, but Shaft went along and did it regardless. For that they do deserve all the flak if things go south later on. And all the praise (at least from fans of this episode) if they don't.

Of course in the age of the internet the hype built up and everyone wanted to glorify this moment and post how much they loved it. So it goes. Critics are perfectly valid to call into question the reaction of the community (use of words like "glorious", "outrageous", "original", "amazing" etc. when we are talking about a sex toy which is not that uncommon [in the real world]). But so it goes in a one massive circlejerk.
Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

I hope I'm not being melded in with official critics here. I dislike professional critics because everyone is expected to agree with their viewpoints, despite it coming from another human being with differing opinions. I'm simply voicing my own opinions on the matter here; it's your choice to agree, disagree or debate to reach a consensus.

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

As for the next episode, I have a feeling everyone's right about this not being the standard. However, that ending seems to jab at me with other possibilities.

[omimon]

I mentioned this before , but i just want to ask it again?

Do you think Bakemonogatari was aiming at the mainstream audiences, while Nisemonogatari was heading for certain group of targeted audiences?

Because that's what i think.I means mainstream audiences rarely check out a new season series,without watching the first series anyway. So Bakemonogatari was like a net to catch anyone in and develop their taste on this style of story telling, and then Nisemonogatari just shoot the bulk, the most concentrated spot where most fans of Bakemonogatari will be in.

Which means Nisemonogatari never plan to sell as well as Bakemonogatari. But definitely they will get a solid number and the novel sale might be boosted from this

The series wasn't aimed at anyone. The anime takes it's story word for word from the novel (99% then if it's not word for word) and the series was just Nisio playing around.

The series started as short stories which was collected into two volumes because fans for whatever reason liked it. Nisio never planned on this to turn into a series because he was never in "serious" mode. For the people who enjoyed Bake, sorry to break this to you but Nisio wasn't even trying when he wrote it. He has been half-assing it for a looooong time.

Nisio made it SUPER obvious that when he wrote Nise he was writing it for himself.

He tried to end the series multiple times.
End 1: Short stories only
End 2: Bake 1 and 2 only
End 3: Bake and Kizu
End 4: Bake, Kizu and Nise
End 5: Bake, Kizu, Nise, Neko and Kabuki
End 6: Season 1 and Season 2
End 7 and present: Season 1, 2 and Final

I have to disagree on Nise not selling well. Unlike the western fandom I'm pretty sure Japanese people who watch the anime read the novels. People who Shaft are targeting (Japanese fans) all have access to the novels and these fans knew wayyyy in advance what they were getting into. Sales on amazon still shows that each disc is in #1 for at least a week or so.

[Sol Falling]

As much as your ideology of one episode failing to bring down the industry is quite true, I speak of it as a branching point. An anchoring point. You say the author did it because he wanted to go all out to end it. I disagree. I ask you, why does fanservice exist? If you truly think it's to please the author, I'm afraid you are sorely mistaken. Fanservice exists to please the populous and to give them something to look at. The authors aren't all horny little bastards sitting alone in a basement writing up stories because they're lonely. They're real people. Professionals, who generally know exactly what the majority wants to see. It's a staple reason why debate exists- conflicting fanbases. The author has a choice to follow his own personal thoughts, or to give in to the screaming voices and do what most people might drool over. In the end, the world is a business, and we are but its mindless customers.

Now don't misinterpret that. There are plenty of fantastic authors out there who value what is right and can bring their series to a sensible consensus for the people who follow it. Bottom line is, this episode seriously felt unnecessary. Sudden incest, throwing away certain character traits, removing charm and interesting dialogue, and basically spending the entire time accentuating the magnitude of what was happening. I'm sorry, but I don't call that good writing. Good writing doesn't just quote/unquote "screw around for the sake of it", especially since it's a continuation. It'd be telling the first Lord of the Rings story, then throwing in magical spells and large-breasted women because a ton of fans wrote in asking for it. Now, I can appreciate that one must have fun while writing, and that in itself is an actual charm of writing. This overexaggerated scenario was seriously unneeded though, I strongly feel.

I can also respect your outlook and how you can give things 10/10 because you're not one for critique. Tell me something though, surely there must be genres of music you dislike? Television series you don't enjoy? Personalities that irritate you? It is important to establish a standard where you can stand in. It is why the concept of debate exists in our world, for without it we'd be blobs of amoeba that are all the same. Some people, like myself, enjoy sophistication and creativity in something I partake in. I don't give 10/10 unless it is absolutely flawless, or so very damn close that I can't give it a 9. I rarely have 10/10s, and you have a lot. That's totally fine. What I find is that there simply is too much in the world. If you spend the time loving everything, you'll never learn to hate. Hate is an ugly word, I agree, but it's a human emotion, and an important one at that. How about I say that I don't hate this episode, but I seriously feel like not watching it again?

Also, I think you might have the wrong perspective on a lot of the users here. Most people don't go into a thread to simply "trash" something. Trolls and flamers are generally well moderated, and I actually don't see a lot of them myself. No, you voice a strongly negative opinion on something because you truly found it to be bad, in your opinion. It's a personal viewpoint. Undeniably, debates and arguments WILL break out with conflicting views. It can't be helped, but it happens. The thing is, people might not show it, but we have something called influential behavioral patterns where debate WILL generally make them at least consider what their opposition is saying. Without even knowing it, some people change their viewpoint because their brain tells them the opposition's claims hold merit. Others are dedicated to their points and that's alright too. What's important is that you have your own opinion and I have mine. Not "agree to disagree", but much rather "agree to a consensus". Nobody is wrong.

Read this:

Directly related to this episode, I found the following interesting.

Taken from http://metanorn.net/2012/02/nisemonogatari-karen-bee-authors-comments Make what you will of it.

It only occurred to me recently, but humans are creatures with many dimensions, so they inevitably end up entwined in many different interests. It’s a concept I find difficult to grasp: the person you see in yourself and the person others see in you can be completely different people. I can try to deny it, but it’s the truth.

And there isn’t just one version of you that other people have; indeed, you are a different person to different people.

So I can see why someone might go on a journey to find himself, asking, “Just who am I!?”

It would be simple just to call it being confused, but the fact that different sets of eyes process the same things differently is something that can’t be denied. What someone perceives as fake could be real to someone else, and what someone perceives as real could be fake to someone else. Though maybe it’s misguided to talk about such an objective measure in a subjective way like that.

How should I put it… it’s obvious that humans are creatures who change their behavior depending on the audience, so maybe the person who has the most correct view of yourself is yourself.

But does to know oneself mean to know just a part of yourself?

So I present to you the first volume of Nisemonogatari, the sequel to Bakemonogatari. The Araragi Sisters, who have been getting criticized for their absence since Bakemonogatari’s prequel Kizumonogatari have finally made their appearance as mains. Keep this a secret, but to tell you the truth, I had originally written this novel without any plans to publish it. I wrote the entire thing without showing it to anyone. I wanted to hide it away without even making a single printout. In other words, this novel was originally something I was going to keep to myself. So this novel was written 200% to fit my tastes. I very much enjoyed getting to write everything that came from my mind without any arbitrary restrictions.

Yes, there were times when I asked myself, “What the hell are you doing? You’re a professional!” But I think there’s a certain charm to approaching writing as if I were an amateur.

It was with that feeling that I wrote the “The 6th Story, Karen Bee,” Nisemonogatari Volume 1.

Oh, VOFAN provided the artwork. His drawing of Araragi Karen was so fantastic, as the author I have to thank him deeply.

I also thank you the readers for bearing with this novel filled with my dumb stories written without much care.

Well, cheerio! Let’s meet again soon in Nisemonogatari Volume 2, another sequel, featuring Araragi Tsukihi this time – that is, if I decide to publish it.

-Nisio IsinIn some ways, it's like a serial killer's manifesto. It doesn't justify the act, but it gives you a glimpse into the motives behind it.

Actually, it'd be better if you seriously went back and read through most of the thread. There are a whole lot of interesting posts and indeed, debate which could probably give you a better perspective of the episode.

In any case, here we have a direct confession from Nishio that he wrote the Nisemonogatari novels to suit his own taste, not even knowing at the time whether he would publish them. If Nishio was pandering to anybody, then he was pandering to himself; so the people who appreciated this episode were probably the ones whom share his sense of humour. If that's a lot of people, I'd actually say that's a good thing.

Anyway, you don't need to worry about Nishio (or the rest of the anime industry)'s capacity to write stuff you find meaningful/interesting; you've seen Nishio's previous work before, you know he has the capacity to repeat it. Above is a self-admission on Nishio's part that these two novels in particular were written in a particularly loose and self-indulgent manner; novel readers confirm that later books in the series will have a more balanced degree of fanservice. However, what you shouldn't be doing is judging the audience which enjoyed this episode. Nishio himself found fun in writing it; we the audience found enjoyment in that creativity. Nothing has to be completely serious and meaningful all the time. Just because Nishio took one chapter to dive into self-indulgent gratuity and the audience was receptive to it does not mean that the series is ruined, or that it's the end of the anime industry. It does not even mean we've drifted in any significant way from the true spirit of the story.

[Ceral]

Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

I hope I'm not being melded in with official critics here. I dislike professional critics because everyone is expected to agree with their viewpoints, despite it coming from another human being with differing opinions. I'm simply voicing my own opinions on the matter here; it's your choice to agree, disagree or debate to reach a consensus.

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

Hitagi is the main romantic interest, that's been established, no way they forget about her. Personally, the only other one I see Koyomi actually being able to take seriously in a romantic relationship would be Hanekawa. The rest, even though he might be attracted to all of them, are just there to tease and make fun of (Romantically speaking).

[omimon]

Read this:



Actually, it'd be better if you seriously went back and read through most of the thread. There are a whole lot of interesting posts and indeed, debate which could probably give you a better perspective of the episode.

In any case, here we have a direct confession from Nishio that he wrote the Nisemonogatari novels to suit his own taste, not even knowing at the time whether he would publish them. If Nishio was pandering to anybody, then he was pandering to himself; so the people who appreciated this episode were probably the ones whom share his sense of humour. If that's a lot of people, I'd actually say that's a good thing.

Anyway, you don't need to worry about Nishio (or the rest of the anime industry)'s capacity to write stuff you find meaningful/interesting; you've seen Nishio's previous work before, you know he has the capacity to repeat it. Above is a self-admission on Nishio's part that these two novels in particular were written in a particularly loose and self-indulgent manner; novel readers confirm that later books in the series will have a more balanced degree of fanservice. However, what you shouldn't be doing is judging the audience which enjoyed this episode. Nishio himself found fun in writing it; we the audience found enjoyment in that creativity. Nothing has to be completely serious and meaningful all the time. Just because Nishio took one chapter to dive into self-indulgent gratuity and the audience was receptive to it does not mean that the series is ruined, or that it's the end of the anime industry. It does not even mean we've drifted in any significant way from the true spirit of the story.

That's another I forgot to mention. People tend criticize the thing they don't like rather than blaming themselves for not being a part of the audience that enjoys it.

[zarqu]

But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?
Yes. The future of Karen/Koyomi relationship has been called into question (and as such, the "point" of the episode). In the heat of the moment it's easy to forget your commitments. But what about the next day? I'm pretty sure that once they have calmed down, Koyomi (and Karen) will think of the consequences and come to their senses. (It could end up not being the case, too.)

That sounds sensible. What was the point of this scene (episode) again? Glorification of sexually arousing brushing of teeth between two siblings. When you rationalize it, it invites criticism (well, from anyone who doesn't particularly care for these kind of things). Then you have to balance in your mind two sides. Simplified alot: On one hand: "boring incest trope", "tiring imouto fetish", seemingly pointless fanservice episode and a pairing with no real future. And on the other: characterization, possible future of the pairing, the scene itself (how it played out audio-visually, I think this is pretty significant) and Nisio's comments. Anyone's mileage will vary here.

I juggled those concepts around in my mind, and decided to praise the episode.

edit: Regarding what has been said below, Koyomi's relationships sure are a very tangled web.

[papermario13689]

Read this:



Actually, it'd be better if you seriously went back and read through most of the thread. There are a whole lot of interesting posts and indeed, debate which could probably give you a better perspective of the episode.

In any case, here we have a direct confession from Nishio that he wrote the Nisemonogatari novels to suit his own taste, not even knowing at the time whether he would publish them. If Nishio was pandering to anybody, then he was pandering to himself; so the people who appreciated this episode were probably the ones whom share his sense of humour. If that's a lot of people, I'd actually say that's a good thing.

Anyway, you don't need to worry about Nishio (or the rest of the anime industry)'s capacity to write stuff you find meaningful/interesting; you've seen Nishio's previous work before, you know he has the capacity to repeat it. Above is a self-admission on Nishio's part that these two novels in particular were written in a particularly loose and self-indulgent manner; novel readers confirm that later books in the series will have a more balanced degree of fanservice. However, what you shouldn't be doing is judging the audience which enjoyed this episode. Nishio himself found fun in writing it; we the audience found enjoyment in that creativity. Nothing has to be completely serious and meaningful all the time. Just because Nishio took one chapter to dive into self-indulgent gratuity and the audience was receptive to it does not mean that the series is ruined, or that it's the end of the anime industry. It does not even mean we've drifted in any significant way from the true spirit of the story.
Well, would you look at that. I appreciate you finding that post for me, but when I wrote what I did, my intentions were not to bash authors in general. What I'm saying is that the Earth is a conglomerate. We are its supporters, and what we do DOES have an impact on the overall productivity, like it or not. Hopefully that makes sense.

Still, thanks for that article, it eases quite a few of my worries. Also, I hope I haven't come off as one who bashes the fanbase who liked this episode. While I personally don't like just how many people are giving this episode perfect scores, it IS your opinion. I'm not bashing, I'm just voicing my side with no intentions of pulling others to my side.

Hitagi is the main romantic interest, that's been establlish, no way they forget about her. Personally, the only other one I see Koyomi actually being able to take seriously in a romantic relationship would be Hanekawa. The rest, even though he might be attracted to all of them, are just there to tease and make fun of (Romantically speaking).
Mhm, here's my standpoint. To me, I hate marketing Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari as harem-esque, because more of the focus is on the character dialogue and story, generally. However, when an episode consists mostly of sexual moaning, nudity and other things along that nature, it changes the experience for me. For me, I hope they don't have Koyomi leave Senjougahara for another. It would feel weird after EVERYTHING that happened in Bake.

Yes. The future of Karen/Koyomi relationship has been called into question (and as such, the "point" of the episode). In the heat of the moment it's easy to forget your commitments. But what about the next day? I'm pretty sure that once they have calmed down, Koyomi (and Karen) will think of the consequences and come to their senses. (It could end up not being the case, too.)

That sounds sensible. What was the point of this scene (episode) again? Glorification of sexually arousing brushing of teeth between two siblings. When you rationalize it, it invites criticism (well, from anyone who doesn't particularly care for these kind of things). Then you have to balance in your mind two sides. On one hand: "boring incest trope", "tiring imouto fetish", seemingly pointless fanservice episode and a pairing with no real future. And on the other: characterization, possible future of the pairing, the scene itself (how it played out audio-visually, I think this is pretty significant) and Nisio's comments.

I juggled those concepts around in my mind, and decided to praise the episode.
You make a solid point. I can't say I can praise the episode myself, but I can understand why you did. Still, something in me rejects this scene, and that's just something on my side, you know?

[Kanon]

Forget plot relevance. This episode actually made me worry for my future in anime. Do NOT get me wrong; if a series does it properly, I can actually appreciate a certain amount of moe and fanservice. Here though, it did NOT feel right. I'm sorry to disagree, but the staple of the Monogatari series was the essence of clever dialogue!

We've already had this debate a few weeks ago (can't remember what prompted it) and I'll repeat what I said then: clever dialogues are not the only element that defines the Monogatari series. It's the whole package that makes it what it is: the witty dialogues, the stunning visuals, the character interaction, AND the fanservice. If you don't like it, it's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't as well. Saying things like "120+ peole loved this episode, I can't believe my eyes" shock me. So what if most of us loved this episode? It was incredibly funny, original, well directed, and quite arousing. I don't see anything wrong with liking it. I actually find it great that people can enjoy such abstract and out of the norm fanservice, and for different reasons to boot (some liked it because they found it was comedy gold, others because it was arousing, and some like me for both). There wasn't even a single pantyshot (actually I think there was one, but everybody overlooked it in favor of the toothbrushing) or bare boobs in this ep. To me, it was completely different from the stuff you can see in your average ecchi anime, it wasn't fanservice anymore, that was eroticism. And as such, it was in fact kind of refreshing.

Now, I can totally understand why you didn't like this episode, as the fanservice has completely taken the show over for a few minutes instead of striking a balance with the dialogues as usual, but I don't think that's any reason to look down on others for enjoying it. I think you're blowing it out of proportion too. It's not the end of the world. This episode isn't going to kill anime, nor even the Nisemonogatari series. It's just ONE episode. And while I loved it, if every episode from now on were to be the same and throw the other elements out of the window, even I would get annoyed. However, we don't know that yet, and I'm quite confident it won't happen.

As a side note, I did find your rant a bit ridiculous -as you're about five years too late- but I feel it's something that's been building up inside of you for a while and that you really needed to get this out of your chest. This ep seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back. That can happen once in a while.

[omimon]

Hitagi is the main romantic interest, that's been establlish, no way they forget about her. Personally, the only other one I see Koyomi actually being able to take seriously in a romantic relationship would be Hanekawa. The rest, even though he might be attracted to all of them, are just there to tease and make fun of (Romantically speaking).

Let's give a little more background information in terms of Hitagi's role in this series. As I mentioned already in one of my recent posts, Nisio never planned on the series getting as far as this. He made Hitagi the main love interest because he wanted Araragi to be with somebody before the series ended. When things got popular Nisio got himself stuck in a situation he wanted out.

There is evidence that shows Hitagi wasn't exactly the girl he wanted Araragi to be with had he known this series was going to last a long time

Nisio probably wants to split Hitagi and Araragi up but couldn't because then he'll be going against what he wrote.

[papermario13689]

We've already had this debate a few weeks ago (can't remember what prompted it) and I'll repeat what I said then: clever dialogues are not the only element that defines the Monogatari series. It's the whole package that makes it what it is: the witty dialogues, the stunning visuals, the character interaction, AND the fanservice. If you don't like it, it's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't as well. Saying things like "120+ peole loved this episode, I can't believe my eyes" shock me. So what if most of us loved this episode? It was incredibly funny, original, well directed, and quite arousing. I don't see anything wrong with liking it. I actually find it great that people can enjoy such abstract and out of the norm fanservice, and for different reasons to boot (some liked it because they found it was comedy gold, others because it was arousing, and some like me for both). There wasn't even a single pantyshot (actually I think there was one, but everybody overlooked it in favor of the toothbrushing) or bare boobs in this ep. To me, it was completely different from the stuff you can see in your average ecchi anime, it wasn't fanservice anymore, that was eroticism. And as such, it was in fact kind of refreshing.

Now, I can totally understand why you didn't like this episode, as the fanservice has completely taken the show over for a few minutes instead of striking a balance with the dialogues as usual, but I don't think that's any reason to look down on others for enjoying it. I think you're blowing it out of proportion too. It's not the end of the world. This episode isn't going to kill anime, nor even the Nisemonogatari series. It's just ONE episode. And while I loved it, if every episode from now on were to be the same and throw the other elements out of the window, even I would get annoyed. However, we don't know that yet, and I'm quite confident it won't happen.

As a side note, I did find your rant a bit ridiculous -as you're about five years too late- but I feel it's something that's been building up inside of you for a while and that you really needed to get this out of your chest. This ep seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
Oh good, this saves me a little bit of reading time. First off, I don't really like how you quoted me in that fashion, as it completely changes what I said. I don't dislike how many people liked the episode, I'm surprised at all the PERFECT 10/10 NOTHING COULD BE BETTER outlook, that's all. My rant derived from the combination of outcomes like this, the sudden change in my current series (not just this one), and the sudden feeling of emptiness I got from looking at the upcoming series.

5 years late sounds a little ridiculous too. I don't know how much our watching lists differ, but I don't generally go looking for moe and fanservice, it finds me and I can choose to like or dislike it. Ergo, over the course of the last 5 years, I can honestly say that I haven't felt this awkward about an episode or even come close. That doesn't mean the general fanbase is wrong, or that the content was wrong either. I am talking from MY thoughts, and that's how I felt.

Basically (or tl;dr), everyone speaks from their own perspectives. I certainly don't mean to directly bash anyone for how they saw this episode, but I stand by my statement that I find it a little worrying to me how many 10/10 ratings there are. We should just have a "Like" or "Dislike" system; it'd prove my point better. Hopefully you weren't offended. If you were, I apologize.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

I hope I'm not being melded in with official critics here. I dislike professional critics because everyone is expected to agree with their viewpoints, despite it coming from another human being with differing opinions. I'm simply voicing my own opinions on the matter here; it's your choice to agree, disagree or debate to reach a consensus.

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

As for the next episode, I have a feeling everyone's right about this not being the standard. However, that ending seems to jab at me with other possibilities.

It is well established that Hitagi is insecure about her status as Araragi's girlfriend. It is also well established that Araragi doesn't actually consider Hitagi the most physically attractive, the most closest to him, or the one he confesses his deepest secrets to.

Hitagi was late to the game when she set her eyes on Araragi. She saw that he had at least Hanekawa already making moves. Hitagi never actually competed with Hanekawa; she never demanded that Araragi choose her over Hanekawa. Hitagi just outright asked him out.

Araragi said yes, and he took that as a serious contract. So now he is Hitagi's boyfriend and nothing will change that. But you have to understand that he always have been attracted to Hanekawa's body, and still does. Having a girlfriend does not, and cannot change the fact that he considers Hanekawa hot. It is also true that whenever he has a problem, he talks to Mayoi. Mayoi is his closest confidant.

And finally, we have Shinobu. Shinobu is almost literally Araragi's soulmate; but details of why, would have to wait for the movie. Suffice to say the Araragi we see today has very little to do with the Araragi in the prequel. She lives for him, and he lives for her. They would likely be together until the sun goes supernova.

And yet... Hitagi is still Araragi's girlfriend. She works hard to make the relationship work, and he does what he can to help. However, it is impossible to demand Araragi to stop being friends with other girls, because he doesn't HAVE any male friends. Neither Hitagi nor Araragi are ideal partners, but they make do.

[risingstar3110]

The series wasn't aimed at anyone. The anime takes it's story word for word from the novel (99% then if it's not word for word) and the series was just Nisio playing around.

The series started as short stories which was collected into two volumes because fans for whatever reason liked it. Nisio never planned on this to turn into a series because he was never in "serious" mode. For the people who enjoyed Bake, sorry to break this to you but Nisio wasn't even trying when he wrote it. He has been half-assing it for a looooong time.

Nisio made it SUPER obvious that when he wrote Nise he was writing it for himself.

He tried to end the series multiple times.
End 1: Short stories only
End 2: Bake 1 and 2 only
End 3: Bake and Kizu
End 4: Bake, Kizu and Nise
End 5: Bake, Kizu, Nise, Neko and Kabuki
End 6: Season 1 and Season 2
End 7 and present: Season 1, 2 and Final

I have to disagree on Nise not selling well. Unlike the western fandom I'm pretty sure Japanese people who watch the anime read the novels. People who Shaft are targeting (Japanese fans) all have access to the novels and these fans knew wayyyy in advance what they were getting into. Sales on amazon still shows that each disc is in #1 for at least a week or so.
But the level of adaptation is different. Bakemonogatari was not pulled word-for-word from the novel as Nise. Lots were cut out. And Araragi was portrayed more like a normal male lead than his current pervert siscon gag-throwing character

And when i said Bakemonogatari as "mainstream anime", i means by Shaft standard. The animation is down to budget, while the style is down to Shaft being Shaft. The starting story itself is quite shounen and cliche: boy meet girl, rescue her from 'bad' monster while show out his dark past. Comparing to starting episodes of Nisemonogatari where you get lots of character interaction and fan services with almost no plot (yet)

I will be surprise if Nise can surpass the 85k benchmark by Bakemonogatari. And i think Shaft will be surprised too

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

But the level of adaptation is different. Bakemonogatari was not pulled word-for-word from the novel as Nise. And Araragi was portrayed more like a normal male lead than his current pervert siscon gag-throwing character

And when i said Bakemonogatari as "mainstream anime", i means by Shaft standard. The animation is down to budget, while the style is down to Shaft being Shaft. The starting story itself is quite shounen and cliche: boy meet girl, rescue her from 'bad' monster while show out his dark past. Comparing to starting episodes of Nisemonogatari where you get lots of character interaction and fan services with almost no plot (yet)

I will be surprise if Nsie can surpass the 85k benchmark by Bakemonogatari. And i think Shaft will be surprised too
This reminds me of another SHAFT show, Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. It was adapted from a very quirky manga series.

The thing is, SZS was altered and changed to make it a more of a traditional gag comedy anime. However, sequels slowly became far more faithful to the social commentary manga that the source material truly was. After Shaft became comfortable with their fanbase. This culminated in an OVA special where Shaft retroactively redid the events of the 1st TV season, making it closer to the source material and closed a few plot holes in the process.

Yes, it is true that a lot more things were cut out in Bake than in Nise. That's why people were so confused about why Araragi is suddenly attracted to Hanekawa's body. But in the end, for this franchise to run the full course, it HAS to stay faithful to the source material. Any alterations would cause a butterfly effect that harms the consistency later.

Araragi is Araragi, no more and no less.

[risingstar3110]

This reminds me of another SHAFT show, Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei. It was adapted from a very quirky manga series.

The thing is, SZS was altered and changed to make it a more of a traditional gag comedy anime. However, sequels slowly became far more faithful to the social commentary manga that the source material truly was. After Shaft became comfortable with their fanbase. This culminated in an OVA special where Shaft retroactively redid the events of the 1st TV season, making it closer to the source material and closed a few plot holes in the process.

Yes, it is true that a lot more things were cut out in Bake than in Nise. That's why people were so confused about why Araragi is suddenly attracted to Hanekawa's body. But in the end, for this franchise to run the full course, it HAS to stay faithful to the source material. Any alterations would cause a butterfly effect that harms the consistency later.

Araragi is Araragi, no more and no less.
I think even the original work also have followed that model. Even if Hitagi is the main character and will get her first arc, i don't think the novel will get this level of success (or does not face controversial) if the second arc is this one with Karen.

So yes i believe the franchise really was coordinated carefully. But my point still stands on: Nisemonogatari is really a different series, not Bakemonogatari 2. They really prepared for it so even if some of us gonna lose out interesting, the main bulk of fanbase by then is large enough to spread it to those with similar taste.

[Solace]

I don't dislike how many people liked the episode, I'm surprised at all the PERFECT 10/10 NOTHING COULD BE BETTER outlook, that's all.

Don't put stock into ratings. In the end, all ratings systems are flawed by one huge issue: they're completely subjective and have no reflection except to illustrate a trend of the audience liking or disliking. Honestly I have half a mind to change that "perfect" in our polls to "outstanding". People put too much emphasis on the "perfect". We get it, nothing is perfect, because there is always something to pick at. If everything was perfect, discussion would be dull right?

When I rate a show or just an episode 10/10, it is because I felt the show or episode was just that damn good. Maybe it did have flaws, maybe even some glaring ones. However when I rate, I rate based on one simple criteria: "Did I like it, and how much?". From there, I can either be compelled to explain or offer an explanation if one is asked of me.

[Kanon]

Oh good, this saves me a little bit of reading time. First off, I don't really like how you quoted me in that fashion, as it completely changes what I said. I don't dislike how many people liked the episode, I'm surprised at all the PERFECT 10/10 NOTHING COULD BE BETTER outlook, that's all. My rant derived from the combination of outcomes like this, the sudden change in my current series (not just this one), and the sudden feeling of emptiness I got from looking at the upcoming series.

5 years late sounds a little ridiculous too. I don't know how much our watching lists differ, but I don't generally go looking for moe and fanservice, it finds me and I can choose to like or dislike it. Ergo, over the course of the last 5 years, I can honestly say that I haven't felt this awkward about an episode or even come close. That doesn't mean the general fanbase is wrong, or that the content was wrong either. I am talking from MY thoughts, and that's how I felt.

Basically (or tl;dr), everyone speaks from their own perspectives. I certainly don't mean to directly bash anyone for how they saw this episode, but I stand by my statement that I find it a little worrying to me how many 10/10 ratings there are. We should just have a "Like" or "Dislike" system; it'd prove my point better. Hopefully you weren't offended. If you were, I apologize.

That wasn't my intention. I don't like engaging in quote battles, so I either quote the whole posts or only the first part of it if it's too long. I don't think I completely distorted what you said, did I? If you feel my interpretation of your post was completely wrong, I'd like you to clarify.

In regards to your reaction about the votes, it seems I misunderstood it. I thought it was that so many people loved the episode that worried you, and not just that they voted 10/10. 10/10 doesn't really mean that an episode is the best thing since sliced bread to me, only that it's damn awesome. Incidentally, I agree with you: everything would be a lot more simply with a like an dislike system (maybe adding two additional love and hate options). You'd be able to tell right away what people's stance on the episode is.

5 years sounds about right to me. I've been reading that kind of rant for the longest time. I agree this ep of Nisemonogatari pushed the envelope, but I don't think it's necessarily "worse", it was just different. Erotic toothbrushing or SM yuri sex in Seikon no qwaser (a two year old show, by the way), which is worse? It all depends on the individual, I suppose. I haven't felt much changes these past few years other than the addition of nipples two or three years ago (it used to be a rarity, now it's quite common): there are a lot of fanservice shows, and there are also a few quality series that are devoid of it. They are fewer, but they exist. The ratio has been roughly the same for a long time. Personally, I watch a little bit of everything, I tend to focus mostly on "smart" series in the past but I've learned to appreciate mindless fanservice series as well over the years. I like picking one of them per season.You can check my list on my profile if you want.

And take the Spring 2012 chart for example. I see Ozuma, Sakimichi no Appolon, Uchuu Kyoudai, Saint Seiya Omega, Jormungand, Fate/Zero; neither of which will have moe or fanservice, at least not as far as I can tell. That's not bad at all.

[Triple_R]

A couple comments I'm going to make given Sol's response to me and PaperMario's recent posts on this thread:

1) I can certainly understand and respect why many people like this episode and are very entertained by it. I can see how the overall execution of this episode, given SHAFT's impressively high production values and attention to detail and great style, can make it seem special to viewers. So I'll concede to that. I hope that's enough to make you feel like I'm respecting your tastes here, Sol, as well as the tastes of most viewers of this episode.

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.


I'll probably leave it at that. For those who really enjoyed this episode, please don't let my words or the words of any other less-enthusiastic viewer get you down or take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim, at least.

[zarqu]

Certainly a bit of a slippery slope there don't you think, Triple_R?

No one here (heh, at least I'd like to think so) wants anime to turn into softcore porn. At the moment we have one (1) episode of a 11+ episode series, which is known for its erotic tone, that is pretty much only "fanservice" or glorification of a sexual theme.

Nisemonogatari will be a difficult work to deal with if Nisio's comments about it are genuine. Yes, it's him masturbating with a pen, but at the same time he did make it clear that Nisemonogatari is sort of an exception to the general rule of the Monogatari series. I'm not awfully worried, because many novels have indeed been published after Nise, so the story is bound to have progressed away from Nisemonogatari's gratuitously sexual themes. So in a sense, at least some viewers knew (or know now) what they were getting into, and were ready to indulge. Understandably people coming from Bakemonogatari anime will have a different perspective. (I am a somewhat spoiled anime-only watcher myself.)

I have been juggling this episode in my mind for 20 pages now, so I'm perfectly happy (maybe somewhat relieved too) to leave it at that. Reading the conversation has been interesting; I'm always interested to read how and why other people like what they like and think what they think. To engage in the dialectic is an edifying experience; it's always worth it to examine first principles. I feel like I have reached a somekind of synthesis, myself.

[Shikijin]

You do see this everyday in anime.

A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones.

Oh wow! How daring! How bold!
This is a shallow argument. There is a lot of things you can see everyday in anime. Love stories. Monsters. Mecha. Aliens. And fanservice. Even if something has been done to death though, that doesn't mean you can't still try to do it better. Nisio and Shaft waltzed in and did it LIKE A BOSS.
How... I've seen this a bazillion places before. How disappointing of the man who wrote the excellent arcs and dialogue of Bakemonogatari.Dialogues of which you have only heard the abridged version :rolleyes:
Furthermore, the vehicle chosen utterly destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I've been to a Dentist before. Getting your teeth brushed by another person is highly unlikely to have an effect like this, even if you're madly in love with the person doing the brushing.Nisio throws in random factoids here an there, but the toothbrush scene, most likely, comes from his own personal imagination.

Then again, your personal experience couldn't mean anything. For example, there are women who orgasm during birth. All women should be able to do it, but the majority of them associates motherhood with responsibility, so they are unconsciously on guard against pleasure.

Looking at the situation more objectively, toothbrush sex should be more like a weird French kiss than anything. Still, like with the g-spot and squirting, knowing the truth is not important. I just want to believe :p
The Monogatari series actually used to explore interesting conflicts, ideas, relationship issues, and themes. There was a certain intellectual and thought-provoking heft to it. Aside from a couple conversations involving Kaiki there's been virtually none of this in Nise.This is absolutely false.

There were two main threads because there were two main opponents. With Karen it was about what it means to be an ally of justice. With Kaiki it was about the nature of evil, as presented by his character itself more than his dialogue. Then there were minor reflections here and there.
All of the fanservice scenes of this anime (with the exceptions of the one involving Hitagi) can't go anywhere, hence keeping character relationships in something of a holding pattern as far as romantic/sexual interest is concerned. They're all one big tease, imo. That's a lot of what I often find unsatisfying about them.But that's what doujins are for :p This is just a parody of harem anime, not the story of a harem. It doesn't have to be taken so seriously :p
I also can't believe that some commenters are calling that scene "character development". :rolleyes:
People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse.But this is anime. Here catharsis is fast and random. For example, I think you remember what you wrote about Guilty Crown :p
The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation.Don't look too much into it. In Japan it is manners to be extremely humble about yourself. Even Tomino treated Gundam like a below average anime in his interviews. I think it's just acting.
I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".

Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.

I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.This forum is specifically targeted at people who appreciate the anime discussed in here. There is no explicit rule that says it must be so, but mostly is aficionados who gravitate here. Animesuki's strong point is exactly the specialization of all its forums. It's different from a general anime forum (or 4chan, for example).

(I am not talking like I am some kind of representative of animesuki, I am just reading the atmosphere.)

Then you come here and pull out an opinion which is contrastive with the one of the majority, using a civil tone and a dignified attitude (but ultimately this doesn't matter. You can start by saying "This anime is terrible" or throwing out random negative buzzwords like "fanservice" and "otaku pandering" and the result will be exactly the same).

What the other people here think is "This guy looks so unhappy. Maybe if we teach him how to enjoy this anime he will be fun to have around". (See? They care for you in their own way)

At this point though you start complaining that the other people can't accept that your tastes may not be the same. You don't realize your own faults.

In fact, you are a bit like Karen when facing Kaiki. Karen thought that if she blamed Kaiki he would have had to give in. She didn't conceive evil as obstinate. Similarly, you don't think people are opinionated, and that in end you arguments may be not much more than sophisms.

I repeat. Isn't it better to be able to enjoy many things? If there is a problem in your viewpoint that doesn't let you enjoy Nise, then why don't you change your viewpoint? Well, obviously it is impossible to change opinions that much, but maybe there are preconceptions that could be fixed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

A couple comments I'm going to make given Sol's response to me and PaperMario's recent posts on this thread:

1) I can certainly understand and respect why many people like this episode and are very entertained by it. I can see how the overall execution of this episode, given SHAFT's impressively high production values and attention to detail and great style, can make it seem special to viewers. So I'll concede to that. I hope that's enough to make you feel like I'm respecting your tastes here, Sol, as well as the tastes of most viewers of this episode.

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.


I'll probably leave it at that. For those who really enjoyed this episode, please don't let my words or the words of any other less-enthusiastic viewer get you down or take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim, at least.

And I will throw a question back at you; how many people giving this episode 10/10, as a percentage, is acceptable to you?

If you feel anime is doomed because 90% of people on this thread gave it 10/10, then what percentage is acceptable in your view?

60%? 40%? 0%?

What is the amount of people needed to dislike this episode, in order for you to feel better?

I would just like you to quantify the exact amount of people you deemed socially correct in having different taste from you.

After all, if 90% of people disagreeing with you is "too much", then how much is "not too much"? I like to see your tolerance level.

[klare]

the sound they made in this eps made me sweat while watching... next time have to watch Nise only when i am alone

the OP animation is very nice and cute, but i dont like the content much

[monir]

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.

eeks... I think it's indeed a good idea for you to get away from this argument for a bit.. clear your head. Get some fresh air. Such blanket statement won't improve any arguments. Ultimately fanservice is defined by YOU as a fan and whatever tickle your fancy i.e. whether it is moe, eroticism, humor (of all kind), feel good situation, etc.. ect.


I'll probably leave it at that. For those who really enjoyed this episode, please don't let my words or the words of any other less-enthusiastic viewer get you down or take away from your enjoyment. That's not my aim, at least.
Hah! That might be falling at deaf ear at this moment. :p

[Archon_Wing]

This is a shallow argument. There is a lot of things you can see everyday in anime. Love stories. Monsters. Mecha. Aliens. And fanservice. Even if something has been done to death though, that doesn't mean you can't still try to do it better. Nisio and Shaft waltzed in and did it LIKE A BOSS.

-- Triple_r's argument is Shallow
-- You refute it by saying they did it LIKE A BOSS
-- So what's the argument here that makes yours deeper, lol. That's just making your own assertion and claiming his is wrong. You have 2 different opinions. And so...?

Point out that Nise's style is far different from different anime and that these cliches were handled in a different manner. Point out that the situation is being oversimplified.

But I'm not gonna debate for you so do it. :heh:


Dialogues of which you have only heard the abridged version :rolleyes:
Nisio throws in random factoids here an there, but the toothbrush scene, most likely, comes from his own personal imagination.

Abridged version? Are you implying that he's only seen abridged parodies? :p Sorry, I can confirm someone's seen the anime. If you're saying the anime version is the abridged version of the novel, then sure we'll wait for it to unfold. I don't anyone said anything about it being dropped.


Then again, your personal experience couldn't mean anything. For example, there are women who orgasm during birth. All women should be able to do it, but the majority of them associates motherhood with responsibility, so they are unconsciously on guard against pleasure.

Yea I guess it's possible that people can orgasm to anything. I'm not a woman so I can't say.


This forum is specifically targeted at people who appreciate the anime discussed in here. There is no explicit rule that says it must be so, but mostly is aficionados who gravitate here. Animesuki's strong point is exactly the specialization of all its forums. It's different from a general anime forum (or 4chan, for example).

(I am not talking like I am some kind of representative of animesuki, I am just reading the atmosphere.)

Then you come here and pull out an opinion which is contrastive with the one of the majority, using a civil tone and a dignified attitude (but ultimately this doesn't matter. You can start by saying "This anime is terrible" or throwing out random negative buzzwords like "fanservice" and "otaku pandering" and the result will be exactly the same).

What the other people here think is "This guy looks so unhappy. Maybe if we teach him how to enjoy this anime he will be fun to have around". (See? They care for you in their own way)

At this point though you start complaining that the other people can't accept that your tastes may not be the same. You don't realize your own faults.

In fact, you are a bit like Karen when facing Kaiki. Karen thought that if she blamed Kaiki he would have had to give in. She didn't conceive evil as obstinate. Similarly, you don't think people are opinionated, and that in end you arguments may be not much more than sophisms.

I repeat. Isn't it better to be able to enjoy many things? If there is a problem in your viewpoint that doesn't let you enjoy Nise, then why don't you change your viewpoint? Well, obviously it is impossible to change opinions that much, but maybe there are preconceptions that could be fixed.

Uh, subforums were made to reduce clutter and create a better sense of organization. While it is self-evident that fans are going to be interested in it. However, because discussion is confined here, everyone that watches this will come here and not everyone is going to be fawning over it. There's people that appreciate the series but not all of it you know. Regardless if someone likes it or not, they have to come here if they want to discuss.

Pro Tip: Internet psychiatry is not an occupation. Do you just realize you spent half of that asserting you and (a majority-- of this subforum) is right. It's nice that you think that there must be something wrong with people that disagree with you. Perhaps you really need to stop dismissing other people so easily, thinking of that, then maybe the other side will listen more.

Why exactly does he have to change his viewpoint and you don't possibly consider you need to change yours? Or perhaps that nobody can agree to disagree.

You can both be right. Or both be wrong.

I also can't believe you said using a civil tone does not matter. Well, I'll tell you this. It does.

Edit: On a lighter note, there's a reason Tomino would diss his own shows. And that was because he's pretty infamous as one of the most bipolar anime directors (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillEmAll) of all time. ;)

[Clarste]

Sure, I understand that. However, do you remember how Bakemonogatari went? Koyomi has perverted thoughts because he's a young adult- it's natural. However, it's established that he hangs around girls too much because he's kind to everyone. In the end though, he's devoted to Senjougahara, his girlfriend. Even at the brink of death he thinks of her and refuses to go to another. But all of a sudden, Hanekawa has the best figure to him and his sister looks hot to him. Senjou-who-now?

All I need to say is, THEY. BETTER. NOT. FORGET. ABOUT. SENJOUGAHARA. IN. THE. END.

Just because he's Senjougahara's boyfriend, just because he's devoted to her, just because he loves her, he has to think she's the sexiest girl in the world? That's a very strange thought. I think most people would agree, for example, that famous actors and actresses are sexier than their boyfriends and girlfriends. That doesn't make their love "false". It doesn't change anything. It's just a fact that not everyone can be the sexiest person in the world, not even to a single person.

Honestly, when you look at it from this perspective, I feel like this adds "depth" to this episode. Araragi still thinks of Hanekawa as the ideal woman. But he also doesn't think of her as love interest material (as he's said many times). There's a story there. There's conflict there. That's a bit of characterization that changes the way all of Araragi's actions up to now could be interpreted.

Adding Karen to the list is just a hallucination brought on by the circumstances. Or so he says. I don't see much reason to doubt him though. Presumably Senjougahara would be temporarily added to the list if he brushed her teeth and she reacted like that.

[DragoZERO]

I want to know if any other episode thread has had so many 10's before. 75% is staggering.

Oh, I watched it again. Everything turned pink once he put the toothbrush in her mouth. Shaft, you so sneaky.

[Reckoner]

And I will throw a question back at you; how many people giving this episode 10/10, as a percentage, is acceptable to you?

If you feel anime is doomed because 90% of people on this thread gave it 10/10, then what percentage is acceptable in your view?

60%? 40%? 0%?

What is the amount of people needed to dislike this episode, in order for you to feel better?

I would just like you to quantify the exact amount of people you deemed socially correct in having different taste from you.

After all, if 90% of people disagreeing with you is "too much", then how much is "not too much"? I like to see your tolerance level.

I think people are not understanding where Triple and papermario are coming from.

Is it so wrong to express dismay when an episode that they found very mediocre or bad is overwhelmingly praised in front of them?

We're all anime fans here, and Monogatari is a top seller in the industry, so naturally we should be interested in what is "hot" in the industry and see if its a direction you like to see it in. It's reasonable to fear that if your tastes are apparently diverging from a good amount of people that the industry could possibly be leaving you behind taste and preference wise.

Personally all this episode illustrated to me that perhaps I appreciate different aspects of Monogatari more than a lot of you.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I think people are not understanding where Triple and papermario are coming from.

Is it so wrong to express dismay when an episode that they found very mediocre or bad is overwhelmingly praised in front of them?

We're all anime fans here, and Monogatari is a top seller in the industry, so naturally we should be interested in what is "hot" in the industry and see if its a direction you like to see it in. It's reasonable to fear that if your tastes are apparently diverging from a good amount of people that the industry could possibly be leaving you behind taste and preference wise.

Personally all this episode illustrated to me that perhaps I appreciate different aspects of Monogatari more than a lot of you.
Actually, yes. It is wrong to express dismay that other people have different tastes from you. Even worse, if you FEAR that your taste is diverging from other people, then frankly I question if you really care about liking what you like.

The simple fact is, the way this website is set up concentrates people of similar tastes into specific forums. And the longer a franchise has been around the more concentrated the fanbase. The fact that 80+% of people gave this episode a 10/10 is not strange; because you had to have liked the show to even be voting.

If you somehow forced everyone in this entire website to all watch this episode, whether they liked Nise or not, and ask them to vote, there would be far less full marks as a ratio.

To add to that, this episode was canon written by the author. If you don't WANT what this episode contained, then you are not diverging your taste from the industry; you are diverging your taste from the AUTHOR.

What does that mean? That means if you don't like what the author offers, the only way for you to get what you want is to edit, censor, and otherwise butcher the author's work. Because when the author's taste diverges from your own, your only choice is to kill your link to the series entirely. To reject the author is to reject the entire series. And I am not exaggerating.

[PM portion removed! You may not share such messages addressed only to you via Private Messaging without actually getting permission from the other user. To do so otherwise is poor in taste!]

[Elestia]

I disagree. People can respond positively or negatively to senseless violence, for example, but that doesn't make the violence any less senseless (i.e. give it meaning).

That's a ridiculous to statement to make. There is a reason the term "silver lining" exists, and for good reason. People find meaning senseless violence, because it brings attention and awareness to why they occur. It's the fundamental reason why the saying "history repeats itself" exists, because people who cannot find relevance or learn from it are doomed to repeat it. Just because it is senseless doesn't automatically assume people cannot derive meaning from it.


Yes, really. It's not much of a toothbrush fetish if all it's going to be used for is cleaning the teeth and mouth. This episode really was quite silly, and not even believable, imo. It reminds me of a lot of some other cases of SHAFT being SHAFT silliness that you'll see sometimes. I like SHAFT, but there's no question that Shinbo sometimes takes it over the line into total silliness.

Welcome to anime? Since when did anime or SHAFT have been known for their believability? The term "SHAFT being SHAFT" should provides some clues that their wacky and zany art direction is there to "enhance" the visual experience, even if at times it goes beyond being excessive.


If you're going to start a new fetish, the way it's executed should at least be half-way plausible, imo, and it wasn't here.

I think you should really reconsider what you are saying here. There's a reason why fetishes are considered a deviant behavior.


Some critics could easily say that they would like people to not narrow themselves so much by focusing on one particular scene and then give the episode the highest score possible because of it and it alone. ;)

The way a lot of the 10/10 folks have talked on this thread, this scene is the reason why they gave 10/10. So if one scene alone can warrant the highest score possible, then why shouldn't one scene alone warrant the lowest score possible?

If you're going to criticize 1/10 voters for this shouldn't you also criticize 10/10 voters who made that vote due to one scene?


Except there are people who also praise other things besides the toothbrush scene. I personally enjoyed OP, the bone shattering tackle attack, the perfect landing sequence, Tsukihi's interruption, and the extra inning ending. Some non-scene related praise was the BGM that was playing during the toothbrush scene and the quality of the animation, despite SHAFT being notorious about quality control later in the series. There are a lot of things to commend SHAFT for this episode that made so many people give it a 10/10.

On the other hand, it does not pan out as well by saying "I do not like the toothbrush scene, therefore the episode gets a 1/10".


I disagree. If a scene ruins an episode for you then it ruined the episode for you. It's not narrow, especially when you consider that what came at the end of an episode can shape your understanding of what came before it.

And I am saying that is bad criticism. It is shallow when people attribute the entire episode as being solely defined by one scene and then judge it.


I don't think so. There's no arrogance in simply being honest about how much a particular scene affected you personally and your enjoyment of an episode.

Really, I draw the line when such so much rhetoric is used to justify their dislikes and likes about the episode. It's similar to how racists justify their beliefs and, by your example, are honest about their personal feelings about a certain race or ethnicity. At the end of the day it is still arrogance.


I disagree. I do not consider this to be original at all. What determines originality is the idea or premise behind something, not the mere vehicle used to achieve it, imo.

That's a rather narrow definition. Have you heard of "The Medium is the Message?"



I very much doubt it'll leave a long lasting impression on me, so I disagree with you here.

Well I wasn't specifically directing at you. But more about everyone who watched this episode. I think the scene has arrested our attention similar to that of a train wreck. For better or worse it leaves a lasting impression.


Didn't you just say that people shouldn't judge an entire episode by a lone scene? That strikes me as being a bit inconsistent with cataloging an entire episode by reference to one lone scene within it. ;)

Yes, but I'm not making any judgements about the entire episode on it, so it's fine.:p


Given how far the originality vs. unoriginality argument has gone, I just searched for "toothbrush as a sex toy" on Google. I'd link to some of what I brought up, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate given AS rules. So I'd just encourage other people curious about it to try it themselves.

If you could find an non-adult anime that did it, I'd give you a cookie. Context is key, but good to know rule 34 still is alive and kicking.:heh:

[Reckoner]

Actually, yes. It is wrong to express dismay that other people have different tastes from you. Even worse, if you FEAR that your taste is diverging from other people, then frankly I question if you really care about liking what you like.

The simple fact is, the way this website is set up concentrates people of similar tastes into specific forums. And the longer a franchise has been around the more concentrated the fanbase. The fact that 80+% of people gave this episode a 10/10 is not strange; because you had to have liked the show to even be voting.

If you somehow forced everyone in this entire website to all watch this episode, whether they liked Nise or not, and ask them to vote, there would be far less full marks as a ratio.

To add to that, this episode was canon written by the author. If you don't WANT what this episode contained, then you are not diverging your taste from the industry; you are diverging your taste from the AUTHOR.

What does that mean? That means if you don't like what the author offers, the only way for you to get what you want is to edit, censor, and otherwise butcher the author's work. Because when the author's taste diverges from your own, your only choice is to kill your link to the series entirely. To reject the author is to reject the entire series. And I am not exaggerating.

What I'm looking at are sales numbers. I could care less about whether or not AS concentrates members into specific subforums and that there are tons of other anime fans out there who aren't here who don't like it. As a top selling series, which just got a spike in sells after this episode mind you, then obviously the anime fanbase in large is responding to this in a positive way. What sells is what gets made, it's simple logic.

And again, sure I might not like what the author churns out, but do you understand how trends get set? How things get produced? If something becomes popular people copy that and try to produce more titles with things like that. It's just the way it goes.

[NeoChan]

I never seen a imouto disperately requesting her elder brother to...

deflower her?!! Hehehe, Karen Chan ecchi ...

[Sol Falling]

...Hm. It's fine and all that the debate seems to be continuing but I feel like the present posts might be getting a bit too heated. Triple_R and papermario13689 have both already stated they intend to respect other views of the episode such that I don't think they're attempting to push their views onto anybody. Though there might well still be disagreements worth having a discussion over, it might be reasonable now to do it in a more friendly manner.

edit:

What I'm looking at are sales numbers. I could care less about whether or not AS concentrates members into specific subforums and that there are tons of other anime fans out there who aren't here who don't like it. As a top selling series, which just got a spike in sells after this episode mind you, then obviously the anime fanbase in large is responding to this in a positive way. What sells is what gets made, it's simple logic.

And again, sure I might not like what the author churns out, but do you understand how trends get set? How things get produced? If something becomes popular people copy that and try to produce more titles with things like that. It's just the way it goes.

On the sales of Nisemonogatari. Actually, if sales are starting to spike after this, I'd see it as a very good thing, because this is an adaptation of a well-established series and consistently good sales mean we're more likely to get a full adaptation. The content of future *monogatari seasons has already been predetermined--whether or not you like Nise, if you are a fan of the *monogatari series in general, what we need to be hoping for is that it keeps up its sales momentum.

Even with this episode, I don't currently expect Nisemonogatari to break Bake's sales totals. That'd be a problem in my mind, seeing as how I view Kizumonogatari and Bakemonogatari as prequels (for Shinobu and Hitagi, respectively) and Nise as the actual overall start to the story. Aside from this episode, the success of this season depends on I think the reception to episode 4, our major introduction to Shinobu, as well as hopefully a solid introduction in the next episodes to post-"character development" Senjougahara. In any case, I definitely think that any sales gained from this episode serve the greater good of getting the rest of this series adapted.

[Elestia]

I could care less about whether or not AS concentrates members into specific subforums and that there are tons of other anime fans out there who aren't here who don't like it.

Yeah, I think Sol is correct when we need to calm down a bit.



And again, sure I might not like what the author churns out, but do you understand how trends get set? How things get produced? If something becomes popular people copy that and try to produce more titles with things like that. It's just the way it goes.

Not many studios do what SHAFT or Nishio does best. And as it has been reiterated many times, Nishio wrote Nise as mostly personal story for his own enjoyment. It was never written for others, therefor never meant to be popular in the first place.

[Kaoru Chujo]

...All I wish to see is a better show of creativity and some evidence that producers are making new shows to drive new plotlines, not open new bank accounts.

Hopefully I didn't rant too ridiculously- this episode seriously left me stunned at the future of media. All I know is, I'm going to be spending the Spring season rewatching some older favourites to fill the void.Seriously, I thought this episode was full of creativity. Maybe it didn't happen to be along lines you enjoy, but it sure seemed creative to me. "Plotlines" are not the only thing that can make an anime (or any kind of fiction) great, it seems to me.

But your rant was not ridiculous in the least, whether I agreed with it or not. You make lots of interesting and even valid points. I'd just suggest that you not give up hope, since I have seen so often that people are scathing about an upcoming season, and then some of the shows they expected to be duds turn out to be good, and some of those they never even considered at all turn out to be great.

Regardless, I'm curious as to what you think of my idea that the scene would have been more effective if Koyomi's monologue had ended with "Kanbaru-sensei's fetishtic ideas will lead to your defeat". It's an interesting notion, but I think it would have been too simple, and too purely erotic. The counterpoint of the monologue gave it texture. And we also heard Koyomi gradually realize he had tricked himself into feeling things about his sister that he didn't consciously want to. I found that pretty strong, especially since it could kind of apply to a lot of us watching.

But it is striking that Kamiya Hiroshi (and no-one else) gets a credit in the opening credits. I can't remember ever seeing a seiyuu get a credit anywhere other than in the end credits. So it's clear that Shinbou thinks of him as far and away the star of the show, and may have him speak more than absolutely necessary. Or else that Kamiyan's agency drives a hard bargain, lol.

[relentlessflame]

Seriously, I thought this episode was full of creativity. Maybe it didn't happen to be along lines you enjoy, but it sure seemed creative to me. "Plotlines" are not the only thing that can make an anime (or any kind of fiction) great, it seems to me.Well yeah, the fact of the matter is that we all come from different perspectives; we're looking at the same object from different points of view. Even ostensibly looking at the same thing, what we see (and thus get out of it) differs. Really, most of this thread has been about differences in values even moreso than opinion, and that's why it got a bit heated. Differences in values (like the elements people find critical to be personally entertained) are even harder to overcome in a discussion; in the end, it just requires abundant patience and understanding. It was very interesting to me that some people looked at the episode and saw brilliance and creativity, while others saw pandering and creative bankruptcy. I can't really say that either is wrong, but they're really looking at the episode in entirely different ways. This is really a case of "one person's trash is another's treasure", perhaps even more literally than usual.

Someone important once told me this story. Psychologists were performing an experiment about empathy in children, and had a box that was red on one side and blue on the other. They sat across the table from the child, and asked them what colour they saw. And then, the spun the box around 180 degrees, and asked again; of course they now saw the other colour. Then, having demonstrated this a few times so the children could understand the two-sided nature of the box, they asked this question: "Okay, so you see blue. Now, what color do I see?" The younger children looked at the box, and just said "blue" -- even though they could recognize the box had two colours, they couldn't place themselves in the perspective of the other party to imagine that what they saw was different from what they themselves saw even though they were on opposite sides of the table. It wasn't until a certain age that a child gained enough understanding, perspective, and empathy to realize that when they saw blue, the other party saw red, and vice-versa.

At the end of the day, we're not so different from those children. We look at the same object -- this anime episode -- and some of us see brilliance while others see banality. But we've spent most of this thread with people not being able to come to terms with the fact that what other people saw was legitimately different, because they couldn't overcome the difference in perspective. They just assumed that everyone else should see the same thing they do, or they have some ulterior motive in stating otherwise. By assuming everyone sees "blue", or that they should, you might say it causes people to "see red", no matter what side of the table they're on.

[Anh_Minh]

2) That being said, I have to admit I have some mild concerns similar to the ones expressed by papermario13689. When I see the reaction that this episode has received, it honestly makes me wonder if all many people want from anime is pure fanservice/eroticism. I like moe, I like some fanservice, and I definitely think that both have a place within anime. But I certainly don't want anime to become all-fanservice all-the-time because that would leave out the majority of what I love about anime.
I really don't think you can call this ep "all fanservice". It's the same kind of humor as when Karen spouted cool lines while in a ridiculous pose, but turned up to 11. All the trappings of an ero scene... but for something that clearly isn't. Or shouldn't be.

[papermario13689]

Yeah, I definitely agree. Like I said, I hope I didn't offend anyone with my incessant ramblings. I wasn't attempting to coax people into seeing things my way, but I do feel I have the right to mention how I felt about the whole thing.

Anyways, if I ended up bothering anyone I do apologize. I'm fine with everyone's viewpoints, but I feel debate with conflicting points can be beneficial if...like relentlessflame said, both parties can accept the other's claims and take the steps to meet closer in the middle.

Ergo, I conclude that I DO see the productive values and direction taken with this episode, but from my standing, I kind of felt uncomfortable with the whole thing.


Seriously, I thought this episode was full of creativity. Maybe it didn't happen to be along lines you enjoy, but it sure seemed creative to me. "Plotlines" are not the only thing that can make an anime (or any kind of fiction) great, it seems to me.

But your rant was not ridiculous in the least, whether I agreed with it or not. You make lots of interesting and even valid points. I'd just suggest that you not give up hope, since I have seen so often that people are scathing about an upcoming season, and then some of the shows they expected to be duds turn out to be good, and some of those they never even considered at all turn out to be great.
Mhm, that's fine with me. I do have a ton of series that I just enjoy for its own merits. Nichijou doesn't really have a plot, but I really liked it as well, just as an example.

Thanks for the assurance, I was going to check out a number of series in the upcoming season anyways, but I do genuinely hope that I find a lot of little gems, because I AM still stuck with some sort of a nagging feeling at this point. It's not even because of this episode, really.

[sergel02]

I never watched the anime or know anything about it, and got lead here by a random link, but i may check it out now lol

[Marcus H.]

WOw, dat amount of posts (three times that of Episode 7's discussion) and dat amount of 10's.
I haven't watched Episode 6-8.


D:

[Pocari_Sweat]

I'm pretty much about to give up as some people -still- don't appreciate where the dissenter's are coming from, but I'll give this a last chance. Let me give a comparison to illustrate an example. Let's compare Nisemonogatari to another ridiculous over-the-top fanservice shows that's airing right this season - Aquarion EVOL.

Aquarion EVOL has just as ridiculous and over-the-top fanservice if not more than Nisemonogatari. But here's the difference between Nise ep 8 and Nise's "tamer/less eccentric" eps and Aquarion. The people who gave this ep a 10/10 or close to it, it come's down to mainly one thing - the fact that this kind of fan-service has never been done before and was followed by many pages of "HNNNNNG!" and "OMG!" comments.

Well Aquarion had "crazy" fan-service scenes like that too. I won't spoil it, but I'll place some buzzwords to which people who are following this series will get immediately: "Berlin Wall", "union", "stripping for powah". But wait, Aquarion has something else of value, and is actually the most prominent feature of the series alongside the mecha fights themselves - shipping. Aquarion EVOL is one massive shipping war fest and out of the 2.1k posts on that thread, at least half of them is shipping talk, with the other half split between trying to guess who is a reincarnated person of what, how flashy the mecha fights themselves and the fanservice itself. Fanservice is not dominating the discussion in a already heavy fanservice series. Nise ep 8? Pretty much the entire episode is dedicated to some toothbrush scene. And guess what, something as ridiculous as that is just a element of a Aquarion EVOL. Plus, what's more interesting? Pages after pages of "HNNNNG!" or debating which girl Amata is going to end up with or which character he is a reincarnation of? You be the judge.

This is the precise problem with Nisemonogatari ep 8 compared to some of its former eps. This one toothbrush scene everyone is making a fuss out of simply dominated the whole episode AND the discussion (and not in a good way). It also did not develop plot nor character. I'm getting sick of all the people complaining to the dissenters that Nisemonogatari isn't plot based because they forget to read the second part too (i.e. didn't develop character apart from the small point that Karen wants to meet Kanbaru. And no the fact Karen is horny for her brother is not character development. Horray for more incest :uhoh:). An episode needs to either move the plot or develop character and this episode did nothing but pander about a certain fetish for an entire episode. At least some of Nise's other eps developed character and Aquarion is just developing this shipping war in an "intentional troll" manner.

Also regarding "best ep of the year arguments"? Am I claiming certain Aquarion EVOL eps the "best anime eps of the year" because not only does it similar over-the-top fanservice but other elements as well as mentioned above? Hell no. Seriously, is Nise ep 8 really the "best anime ep of the year" when its only February and a glorified fanservice scene? Is Nise ep 8 really on the same sorta "best ep of the year" material as last year's Madoka ep 3 or 5, Steins Gate penultimate ep, Hanasaku Iroha debut ep or Anohana episode 8? No way in hell it does.

[Haak]

I'And no the fact Karen is horny for her brother is not character development.

To be honest though, I think it does...

[omimon]

To be honest though, I think it does...

Definitely is, I'm sure this isn't a one time thing.

[Nihokon]

It also did not develop plot nor character
Okay, the whole toothbrushing thing indeed did not develop any of the characters or even the plot. But it did show how their characters, especially Karen, are developed so far.

Everyone is so butthurt because they expect plot but they're given fanservice. :uhoh:
Personally I don't mind this episode at all. It's not like they're pulling a subpar level fanservice. The main attraction point of Nise to me, the dialogue between characters, are still there and they managed to slip in a major troll of a fanservice smoothly. Yes, I find this episode to be very creative.
Well, to each his own, I guess.

[Kanon]

I'm pretty much about to give up as some people -still- don't appreciate where the dissenter's are coming from, but I'll give this a last chance. Let me give a comparison to illustrate an example. Let's compare Nisemonogatari to another ridiculous over-the-top fanservice shows that's airing right this season - Aquarion EVOL.

Aquarion EVOL has just as ridiculous and over-the-top fanservice if not more than Nisemonogatari. But here's the difference between Nise ep 8 and Nise's "tamer/less eccentric" eps and Aquarion. The people who gave this ep a 10/10 or close to it, it come's down to mainly one thing - the fact that this kind of fan-service has never been done before and was followed by many pages of "HNNNNNG!" and "OMG!" comments.

Well Aquarion had "crazy" fan-service scenes like that too. I won't spoil it, but I'll place some buzzwords to which people who are following this series will get immediately: "Berlin Wall", "union", "stripping for powah". But wait, Aquarion has something else of value, and is actually the most prominent feature of the series alongside the mecha fights themselves - shipping. Aquarion EVOL is one massive shipping war fest and out of the 2.1k posts on that thread, at least half of them is shipping talk, with the other half split between trying to guess who is a reincarnated person of what, how flashy the mecha fights themselves and the fanservice itself. Fanservice is not dominating the discussion in a already heavy fanservice series. Nise ep 8? Pretty much the entire episode is dedicated to some toothbrush scene. And guess what, something as ridiculous as that is just a element of a Aquarion EVOL. Plus, what's more interesting? Pages after pages of "HNNNNG!" or debating which girl Amata is going to end up with or which character he is a reincarnation of? You be the judge.

This is the precise problem with Nisemonogatari ep 8 compared to some of its former eps. This one toothbrush scene everyone is making a fuss out of simply dominated the whole episode AND the discussion (and not in a good way). It also did not develop plot nor character. I'm getting sick of all the people complaining to the dissenters that Nisemonogatari isn't plot based because they forget to read the second part too (i.e. didn't develop character apart from the small point that Karen wants to meet Kanbaru. And no the fact Karen is horny for her brother is not character development. Horray for more incest :uhoh:). An episode needs to either move the plot or develop character and this episode did nothing but pander about a certain fetish for an entire episode. At least some of Nise's other eps developed character and Aquarion is just developing this shipping war in an "intentional troll" manner.

Also regarding "best ep of the year arguments"? Am I claiming certain Aquarion EVOL eps the "best anime eps of the year" because not only does it similar over-the-top fanservice but other elements as well as mentioned above? Hell no. Seriously, is Nise ep 8 really the "best anime ep of the year" when its only February and a glorified fanservice scene? Is Nise ep 8 really on the same sorta "best ep of the year" material as last year's Madoka ep 3 or 5, Steins Gate penultimate ep, Hanasaku Iroha debut ep or Anohana episode 8? No way in hell it does.

I understand your point, but that's about the worst example you could use to illustrate it :heh:
I wouldn't considering shipping discussions /wars superior to fanservice discussions. There's a reason shipping threads were banned in several subforums in the first place.

And I'll say it once again: it's just one episode.

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There have been interesting discussions the previous weeks. There's no need to blow of fuse over the fact an episode and thereby the ensuing discussion focused on a very funny and erotic fanservice scene (honestly, what exactly did you want us to talk about here? Which topic would have been acceptable to you?), especially when comments from the author that were posted a while ago and reactions from novel readers should have been enough to reassure you the toothbrush scene represents the pinnacle of fanservice in the Monogatari series. I haven't read the novel so I'm not 100% sure, but from what I can surmise, we'll never see something like this ever again.

Another thing you seem to overlook is that this wasn't just an average fanservice scene. It was a freaking hilarious one thanks to overexaggeration of the characters' feelings and the whole ridiculousness of the situation. Now, obviously, you didn't find it funny. That's fine. And I'm sorry, even if you don't see it, this episode did develop the plot a bit, in this case Karen and Koyomi's relationship, who by Koyomi's own admission, has grown closer. This is mostly what this season is about: Koyomi's sisters and his relationship with them.

And you are taking our comments and ratings WAY too seriously. Chill. Most of us -I think- including me were just exaggerating for fun. In doing so, it appears we have unintentionally (although to be honest, I was very much looking forward to the outrage, but I didn't expect it'd go so far) trolled you hard. I apologize for that. I certainly don't think this is the best episode of the year nor even the best of the series, yet in the heat of the moment I found it appropriate to rate it 10/10 since the toothbrush scene was something never before seen in anime and it really made me laugh my ass off.

One last thing. You say we don't appreciate where the dissenters are coming from (which is not entirely true), yet I sincerely don't feel you appreciate where we are coming from either.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

There were some things just not meant to be seen, like this episode. Now where’s my toothbrush?:D

Toothbrush redifined...

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end
and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

[Pocari_Sweat]

I understand your point, but that's about the worst example you could use to illustrate it :heh:
I wouldn't considering shipping discussions /wars superior to fanservice discussions. There's a reason shipping threads were banned in several subforums in the first place.

Still better than the same old "Hnnnnng" spam. Which isn't a discussion... tbh. Shipping wars were actual discussions, but in the past that got out of hand that led people to commit ad hominen attacks on each other because they couldn't control themselves. Thankfully, the Aquarion thread hasn't turned into that (yet). Anyways I'm not crusading to have shipping war discussions to be un-banned here, so I'll leave it at that. Btw I'm not saying Aquarion is a great anime or anything necessarily.

And I'll say it once again: it's just one episode.

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Really? I recall episode 2 being almost entirely dedicated to Nadeko and Kanbaru fanservice. Luckily the short section between Araragi and Karen prevented it from being me placing in it the trash. I also recall episode 4 being entirely dedicated to a bathing scene with Araragi and Shinobu, though I didn't mind as much since the dialogue was somewhat interesting and we got to know a bit more about Araragi's and Shinobu' past (short teaser of what's to come in the Kizumonogatari anime). So there we go, 3 out of 8 episodes dedicated to almost entirely fanservice. Much more than the "one episode" you're claiming.

There have been interesting discussions the previous weeks. There's no need to blow of fuse over the fact an episode and thereby the ensuing discussion focused on a very funny and erotic fanservice scene (honestly, what exactly did you want us to talk about here? Which topic would have been acceptable to you?), especially when comments from the author that were posted a while ago and reactions from novel readers should have been enough to reassure you the toothbrush scene represents the pinnacle of fanservice in the Monogatari series. I haven't read the novel so I'm not 100% sure, but from what I can surmise, we'll never see something like this ever again.

Let me quote something I wrote a few pages back:

"I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not one LN was more/less fanservice centric compared to each other or in their animated adaptations".

I have not, and do not intend to read any of the Monogatari LNs. Hence I did not nor do I care whether this was in the LN or how this episode amplified it. Let's not assume everyone has read the LN here and PLEASE not go into this faithful adaptation = good anime again, cause I had enough of that shiz in regards to Persona 4. This episode was plain offensive to me and a few others in its content and how much it took over the episode and that's that.

Another thing you seem to overlook is that this wasn't just an average fanservice scene. It was a freaking hilarious one thanks to overexaggeration of the characters' feelings and the whole ridiculousness of the situation. Now, obviously, you didn't find it funny. That's fine. And I'm sorry, even if you don't see it, this episode did develop the plot a bit, in this case Karen and Koyomi's relationship, who by Koyomi's own admission, has grown closer. This is mostly what this season is about: Koyomi's sisters and his relationship with them.

Neither is Aquarion or Mawaru Penguindrum back when it was airing. Did people make a huge fuss and be defensive about it when dissenters criticized it (in regards to its fan-service)?

And you are taking our comments and ratings WAY too seriously. Chill. Most of us including me were just exaggerating for fun. In doing so, it appears we have unintentionally (although to be honest, I was very much looking forward to the outrage, but I didn't expect it'd go so far) trolled you hard. I apologize for that. I certainly don't think this is the best episode of the year nor even the best of the series, yet in the heat of the moment I found it appropriate to rate it 10/10 since the toothbrush scene was something never before seen in anime and it really made me laugh my ass off.

Don't buy it. The fact that there were several people getting defensive and even angry about not "celebrating" the episode as if we were some party crashers rebutes the argument that people were merely trolling. Some were dead serious.


Anyways, I'm done. I'm not gonna exaggerate and go drop this series over this episode or anything, but I do think I have expected too much from the franchise as I was expecting more in line with Bakemonogatari. I am however optimistic enough that the next few episodes will develop Tsukihi's character and her issues.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

http://www.ota-suke.jp/news/65338
The entire sound recording was method acting; the voice actress was getting her teeth brush through out the whole scene. According to her, it felt good.

[omimon]

http://www.ota-suke.jp/news/65338
The entire sound recording was method acting; the voice actress was getting her teeth brush through out the whole scene. According to her, it felt good.

If it turns out Kamiya was doing it for her.......

[DragoZERO]

I always thought it would be an awkward recording session, but I didn't think it'd be that interesting.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

If it turns out Kamiya was doing it for her.......

If the actual scene wasn't enough already, now this image has to go along with it.:heh:

[ImperialX]

just curious, if it's hitagi or kanbaru that's on the receiving side of the toothbrushing would it be better for you guys?

No. No it would't have.

[Shikijin]

-- Triple_r's argument is Shallow
-- You refute it by saying they did it LIKE A BOSS
-- So what's the argument here that makes yours deeper, lol. That's just making your own assertion and claiming his is wrong. You have 2 different opinions. And so...?You missed the point by a mile :rolleyes: The counter-argument was "even if it has been done to death, you should still try to do it better". For example, Evangelion had a lot of clichè, but it was still able to stood out among the rest of mecha anime. There are many fanservice anime out there? Is this a reason not to accept the challenge? A scene written almost three years ago was still be able to generate such reactions despite the many ero-anime newcomers, and probably years later you will still remember Nise just for it. That's being a BOSS for you :p
Abridged version? Are you implying that he's only seen abridged parodies? :p Sorry, I can confirm someone's seen the anime. If you're saying the anime version is the abridged version of the novel, then sure we'll wait for it to unfold. I don't anyone said anything about it being dropped.Yeah, I'm talking about the novels. There were running gags that were almost always written out, like Senjougahara being bisexual, Kanbaru wanting to strip or Araragi trying to touch Hanekawa's breasts. Granted the Nise progressively got more extreme, but the transition between the adaptation of Bake and the adaptation of Nise was not as smooth as in the novels.

By the way, even small details were left out. For example Senjougahara reads every kind of book, and Tsukihi is in the tea club because she likes to wear kimono.
Uh, subforums were made to reduce clutter and create a better sense of organization.Of course, every rules is not without exception. There are also wannabe opinion-leaders dispensing their slatings left and right, and genuine fans who are displeased with certain parts of the series. If you look at the poll for each episode though, and see that 2/3 of the votes are higher than 7, it doesn't take much to notice a simple fact: in this forum there are mostly people who support the series. It is naive to not realize so, and dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Pro Tip: Internet psychiatry is not an occupation. Do you just realize you spent half of that asserting you and (a majority-- of this subforum) is right. It's nice that you think that there must be something wrong with people that disagree with you. Perhaps you really need to stop dismissing other people so easily, thinking of that, then maybe the other side will listen more.And are you not doing internet psychiatry in saying this? :p

In the end there are only two fair ways to decide who is right:
1) Arguments.
2) Majority vote.

If you think someone is wrong, then it's arguments. If you say every opinion must be respected, than it's majority vote. At this point though the minority must accept the verdict and speak like a minority. That's all there is to it.

The problem is not me. The problem is people talking of Nise 8 like it wasn't received it well, which is patently false and dishonest. It must be accepted that most people here rated this episode very high as a premise in whatever it is said. This is intellectual honesty.

On my part I readily acknowledge that there are, currently, 6 people who voted 1, plus 9 votes below 6. Yeah, there have been some extreme negative opinions, even (or especially) from people who liked Bakemonogatari. I even think dissenting people must have their champions too.

Anyway, in this forum where most people like Bake it was exactly these people the one who proved this episode was outrageous ;)

Outrageous:
-provoking outrage
-outside the bounds of good taste
-immoderate
-extravagant
Why exactly does he have to change his viewpoint and you don't possibly consider you need to change yours?When in Rome, do as the Romans do, they say :p
I also can't believe you said using a civil tone does not matter. Well, I'll tell you this. It does.Less than what you think. People reply to trolls as much as they do to legit posts. Of course, it's nice to be nice, I'm not saying otherwise. It's just that "dissenting opinion" was the keyword here.
Edit: On a lighter note, there's a reason Tomino would diss his own shows. And that was because he's pretty infamous as one of the most bipolar anime directors (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillEmAll) of all time. ;)No, Tomino likes Gundam. He just doesn't like keep doing Gundam. In the interview in the end he gets tired of his act and just flat out states Gundam is great. Anyway, in Japan when someone says "Your wife is beautiful" you have to reply "No, it's not. She looks like a cow". Not kidding!

[Archon_Wing]

You missed the point by a mile :rolleyes: The counter-argument was "even if it has been done to death, you should still try to do it better". For example, Evangelion had a lot of clichè, but it was still able to stood out among the rest of mecha anime. There are many fanservice anime out there? Is this a reason not to accept the challenge? A scene written almost three years ago was still be able to generate such reactions despite the many ero-anime newcomers, and probably years later you will still remember Nise just for it. That's being a BOSS for you :p

That's what you've been asserting. But that's simply just an assertion and hardly fact. I'm sure I'll remember this thread a few years from now. But eh perhaps it is a bit too fast to make such predictions for the future?

Yea, I can understand that not all cliches are bad, but is that anything that hasn't been seen yet? However, at least this sounds better since I have some slightly more concrete evidence of said bossness


Yeah, I'm talking about the novels. There were running gags that were almost always written out, like Senjougahara being bisexual, Kanbaru wanting to strip or Araragi trying to touch Hanekawa's breasts. Granted the Nise progressively got more extreme, but the transition between the adaptation of Bake and the adaptation of Nise was not as smooth as in the novels.

By the way, even small details were left out. For example Senjougahara reads every kind of book, and Tsukihi is in the tea club because she likes to wear kimono.

Well, who's fault is that? If there was a problem with the adaptation, is it the viewer's?

Of course, every rules is not without exception. There are also wannabe opinion-leaders dispensing their slatings left and right, and genuine fans who are displeased with certain parts of the series. If you look at the poll for each episode though, and see that 2/3 of the votes are higher than 7, it doesn't take much to notice a simple fact: in this forum there are mostly people who support the series. It is naive to not realize so, and dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Thanks for cutting out the next part of my statement which coincidentally already has what I think about that. This seems to be a frequent problem on your end, and if you keep doing this I recommend you quote the entirety of my post, because I'm not really sure who's being dishonest here.

So let me answer with what I already said:
While it is self-evident that fans are going to be interested in it. However, because discussion is confined here, everyone that watches this will come here and not everyone is going to be fawning over it. There's people that appreciate the series but not all of it you know. Regardless if someone likes it or not, they have to come here if they want to discuss.


And are you not doing internet psychiatry in saying this? :p



In the end there are only two fair ways to decide who is right:
1) Arguments.
2) Majority vote.

If you think someone is wrong, then it's arguments. If you say every opinion must be respected, than it's majority vote. At this point though the minority must accept the verdict and speak like a minority. That's all there is to it.

The problem is not me. The problem is people talking of Nise 8 like it wasn't received it well, which is patently false and dishonest. It must be accepted that most people here rated this episode very high as a premise in whatever it is said. This is intellectual honesty.

On my part I readily acknowledge that there are, currently, 6 people who voted 1, plus 9 votes below 6. Yeah, there have been some extreme negative opinions, even (or especially) from people who liked Bakemonogatari. I even think dissenting people must have their champions too.

Anyway, in this forum where most people like Bake it was exactly these people the one who proved this episode was outrageous ;)

Outrageous:
-provoking outrage
-outside the bounds of good taste
-immoderate
-extravagant


No, because I personally don't care about your motivations for writing your posts, nor am I making assumptions about errors in your viewpoint or there is something wrong with it, nor am I making any insinuations like you did with the person you replied to. I really don't care what in your life got you here. I simply disagree with the way you present your point. If you can say the same about your replies, then fine, tone isn't always detectable on the internet.

Basically, I have no intention of "fixing" anyone.

So, who said this episode wasn't received well? Does anyone deny the results of the poll? I would disagree with them too. But who are you talking about? :o


Less than what you think. People reply to trolls as much as they do to legit posts. Of course, it's nice to be nice, I'm not saying otherwise. It's just that "dissenting opinion" was the keyword here.

Well, maybe they shouldn't reply to trolls? I consider any post that bashes people for rating it high just as bad as a post that bashes people for rating it low.


No, Tomino likes Gundam. He just doesn't like keep doing Gundam. In the interview in the end he gets tired of his act and just flat out states Gundam is great. Anyway, in Japan when someone says "Your wife is beautiful" you have to reply "No, it's not. She looks like a cow". Not kidding!

Of course he loves Gundam. Just not when he is off his meds and starts taking the hammer to his cast to end it. :3

I understand your point, but that's about the worst example you could use to illustrate it :heh:
I wouldn't considering shipping discussions /wars superior to fanservice discussions. There's a reason shipping threads were banned in several subforums in the first place.

And I'll say it once again: it's just one episode.

O
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There have been interesting discussions the previous weeks. There's no need to blow of fuse over the fact an episode and thereby the ensuing discussion focused on a very funny and erotic fanservice scene (honestly, what exactly did you want us to talk about here? Which topic would have been acceptable to you?), especially when comments from the author that were posted a while ago and reactions from novel readers should have been enough to reassure you the toothbrush scene represents the pinnacle of fanservice in the Monogatari series. I haven't read the novel so I'm not 100% sure, but from what I can surmise, we'll never see something like this ever again.

I agree it's only one episode too, and not representative of the whole series. I hope you will just let them not like this one episode though and realize it'll blow over soon enough.

On another unrelated note, I like Nise better but Bake may have been more consistent. (I think that may be considered even more disagreeable for both sides. :p)

[Candyshark]

Interesting clip when Gackt's name start to float I remembered there was a clip with him where he stated he loves to shoves toothbrush as deep as possible. So he was originator for Nisio idea? Personally not going to test anything.

[Kaoru Chujo]

http://www.ota-suke.jp/news/65338 The entire sound recording was method acting; the voice actress was getting her teeth brush through out the whole scene. According to her, it felt good.Lol. Great stuff. I think she implied she was holding the toothbrush herself, but I'm not sure.

And I have to name "the voice actress": Kitamura Eri (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=13838), the 24-year-old pro who is a good cartoonist (second only to Inoue Marina among seiyuus) and is so much known as an otaku that her nickname of KitaEri is sometimes changed to OtaEri. She has been Tatiana in Last Exile (both shows), Saya in Blood+, Sayaka in MadoMagi, etc., etc.

http://i.imgur.com/9lGlU.jpg

[Kanon]

Really? I recall episode 2 being almost entirely dedicated to Nadeko and Kanbaru fanservice. Luckily the short section between Araragi and Karen prevented it from being me placing in it the trash. I also recall episode 4 being entirely dedicated to a bathing scene with Araragi and Shinobu, though I didn't mind as much since the dialogue was somewhat interesting and we got to know a bit more about Araragi's and Shinobu' past (short teaser of what's to come in the Kizumonogatari anime). So there we go, 3 out of 8 episodes dedicated to almost entirely fanservice. Much more than the "one episode" you're claiming.

Episode two is debatable, but episode 4 was most definitely not only about fanservice. Yes, there was fanservice, but it's Monogatari after all, that's par for the course. As you said, Koyomi and Shinobu's dialogues were interesting (I'd even say very interesting) and we learned more about their past, so fanservice was not the primary focus like in ep 8. I definitely wouldn't put ep 4 and 8 in the same bag.

Let me quote something I wrote a few pages back:

"I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not one LN was more/less fanservice centric compared to each other or in their animated adaptations".

I have not, and do not intend to read any of the Monogatari LNs. Hence I did not nor do I care whether this was in the LN or how this episode amplified it. Let's not assume everyone has read the LN here and PLEASE not go into this faithful adaptation = good anime again, cause I had enough of that shiz in regards to Persona 4. This episode was plain offensive to me and a few others in its content and how much it took over the episode and that's that.

Hmm, you seem to have completely missed my point. All I was saying was that from I could surmise from the comments of Nisio (who made it very clear he wrote Nise as his private fap material (pretty much), as opposed to the other novels which he wrote with a professional mind) and the LNs readers (who know what will happen in the next series), the toothbrush scene was the height of fanservice in the series, so you needn't fear it will get worse in the future. I was trying to reassure you! :heh:

Don't buy it. The fact that there were several people getting defensive and even angry about not "celebrating" the episode as if we were some party crashers rebutes the argument that people were merely trolling. Some were dead serious.


Anyways, I'm done. I'm not gonna exaggerate and go drop this series over this episode or anything, but I do think I have expected too much from the franchise as I was expecting more in line with Bakemonogatari. I am however optimistic enough that the next few episodes will develop Tsukihi's character and her issues.

Oh, I'm sure some were completely serious. That's why I said "most of us" and added a "I think". I believe there are not that much people who think this is the best thing ever, and even if they do, I don't mind. To each their own. And I stand by what I said: don't take it all too seriously, even if your "opponents" do. We're debating about an anime, not the holocaust (Godwin GET!)

Anyway, I'm glad you won't drop the series because of this. That would have been a hasty and rash decision. Hopefully, you'll enjoy the rest of the season more than this ep.

[Marcus H.]

@DemiSoda's mentioning of shipping wars in Aquarion EVOL threads

That's not better, actually. Shipping wars has a bigger tendency to spark hostility.
And besides, TOOTHBRUSH has been the most antitipicated scene throughout Nisemonogatari, even before Episode 1 even aired.

[papermario13689]

Everyone's actually handling this quite well. Good on you, this is why I like these forums.

I won't fuel any potential fires-in-waiting, so I say we take Kanon's good word on the fact that it'll be just one episode and move on. It was just a moment that the writer put in that didn't exactly sit well with some of us, that's all.

Let's save the mods and admins the trouble and just stop beating this dead horse. Don't even reach for that stick, it'd be pointless.:heh:

[apr]

And I have to name "the voice actress": Kitamura Eri (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=13838), the 24-year-old pro who is a good cartoonist (second only to Inoue Marina among seiyuus) and is so much known as an otaku that her nickname of KitaEri is sometimes changed to OtaEri.

She's been renamed KitaEro now, though.

[blakstealth]

She's been renamed KitaEro now, though.lawl :heh:

[Tempest35]

She's been renamed KitaEro now, though.

I wonder how many toothbrushes will be stuffed into her mailbox now...:heh:

And wow, she's cute too...*sigh*

[Cosmic Eagle]

I love this ep....



Anyway, this show is 12 eps?

Can't believe they'll squeeze Tsukihi Phoenix into 5 eps...

[papermario13689]

I love this ep....



Anyway, this show is 12 eps?

Can't believe they'll squeeze Tsukihi Phoenix into 5 eps...
It's actually 11 episodes. That added to my initial worries.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

0__0 so that's the toothbrush scene i'd been curious about??

weird episode is weird though. hoping for no more scenes like this in the future.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

It's actually 11 episodes. That added to my initial worries.

They could do a repeat of Bake, and just throw in web OVAs that are 6 months late.:heh:

[Liddo-kun]

Surprised that Karen has a toothbrush fetish, one session isn't enough for her. :uhoh:

Tsukihi arrive just in time. I wonder how things will go in the next episode? :confused:

[kitten320]

This was wrong on so many levels... yet somehow I don't mind...

[Shikijin]

That's what you've been asserting. But that's simply just an assertion and hardly fact. I'm sure I'll remember this thread a few years from now. But eh perhaps it is a bit too fast to make such predictions for the future?Indeed, human memories tend to fade with time. Unless people are able to refresh their memories by watching again the series from DVD/BD they will probably forget about it all. Then again, if taking into account the record sales of Bakemonogatari, we can at least expect a lot of Japanese people will be materially able to remember Nise. Well, there is also the fact the series will go on after Nise for years, that helps too :p
Yea, I can understand that not all cliches are bad, but is that anything that hasn't been seen yet?That's work for the discerning mind. As a good intellectual exercise, people could ask themselves what was the difference between that scene and many other scenes on the same line seen in other anime, and try to come up with some answers. Anyway, I liked that scene and for the moment I am satisfied with that, my mind is occupied by other matters :p
Well, who's fault is that? If there was a problem with the adaptation, is it the viewer's?As the Japanese say, it couldn't be helped. I just think there are people for whom learning the cause of their suffering could help easing the pain, that's all.
Thanks for cutting out the next part of my statement which coincidentally already has what I think about that.My bad. I think I try to put my main argument first and you try to put it last, or something like that. We are misplacing each other's focus.
So, who said this episode wasn't received well? Does anyone deny the results of the poll? I would disagree with them too. But who are you talking about? :oBy now, I can't even remember them anymore :p It's great things have quieted down.
I agree it's only one episode too, and not representative of the whole series. I hope you will just let them not like this one episode though and realize it'll blow over soon enough.That is, until the next service scene :rolleyes:
On another unrelated note, I like Nise better but Bake may have been more consistent. (I think that may be considered even more disagreeable for both sides. :p)Actually I have the same opinion. Bake had tighter plots, but Nise is more creative :cool:

[Kaoru Chujo]

Hmmm. Will I remember this scene in five years? I think so. It is more erotic (and more artistic, inventive, and comic) than just some simple "fanservice" scene. I certainly remember a couple of the erotic scenes in the 2010 incest anime, Yosuga no Sora. By the way, I think that may be a source for the stretched toes image in this scene. Of course, if things keep on moving as they are, this may seem like weaksauce by the time five years have passed.

[Xellos-_^]

Hmmm. Will I remember this scene in five years? I think so. It is more erotic (and more artistic, inventive, and comic) than just some simple "fanservice" scene. I certainly remember a couple of the erotic scenes in the 2010 incest anime, Yosuga no Sora. By the way, I think that may be a source for the stretched toes image in this scene. Of course, if things keep on moving as they are, this may seem like weaksauce by the time five years have passed.
this scene will go down in Anime Lore along side Shinji's visit to Asuka Hospital Room.

[monir]

Hmmm. Will I remember this scene in five years? I think so. It is more erotic (and more artistic, inventive, and comic) than just some simple "fanservice" scene. I certainly remember a couple of the erotic scenes in the 2010 incest anime, Yosuga no Sora. By the way, I think that may be a source for the stretched toes image in this scene. Of course, if things keep on moving as they are, this may seem like weaksauce by the time five years have passed.

At the rate things have been going down in the last few years, I'm very afraid to even consider how ecchi will evolve in the next five. It used to be fun watching some of these ecchi shows as early as four years back. Now a days.... oh dear heavens. The subtlety and the timing to deliver echhi scenes are increasingly becoming a lost phenomenon, so I was overjoyed by how this episode executed everything spot-on to deliver the outrageous.

[Diveman]

uhmm I just watched Ep 8....

just...wow

I seriously thought I was watching the 1st Ep of a hentai series...which i dont mind, good stuff Japan, once again you surpased my expectatives.

[Archon_Wing]

Indeed, human memories tend to fade with time. Unless people are able to refresh their memories by watching again the series from DVD/BD they will probably forget about it all. Then again, if taking into account the record sales of Bakemonogatari, we can at least expect a lot of Japanese people will be materially able to remember Nise. Well, there is also the fact the series will go on after Nise for years, that helps too :p

Well, the anime enthusiast will remember this series for its record breaking sales. Whether it'll be more than that footnote is up to debate.


That's work for the discerning mind. As a good intellectual exercise, people could ask themselves what was the difference between that scene and many other scenes on the same line seen in other anime, and try to come up with some answers. Anyway, I liked that scene and for the moment I am satisfied with that, my mind is occupied by other matters :p

That works for me.

As the Japanese say, it couldn't be helped. I just think there are people for whom learning the cause of their suffering could help easing the pain, that's all.
My bad. I think I try to put my main argument first and you try to put it last, or something like that. We are misplacing each other's focus.
By now, I can't even remember them anymore :p It's great things have quieted down.

I sorta agree, but as an off topic, I HATE THAT QUOTE. :heh: But yea, this thread has seriously become TL;DR and can't really fault anyone for not wanting to dig through it.

That is, until the next service scene :rolleyes:

Depends. I don't think too many people cried foul over Shinobu's bath scene, for example. Then again I barely considered it "service". But perhaps good service is one you don't even notice.

Actually I have the same opinion. Bake had tighter plots, but Nise is more creative :cool:

I sincerely do like the service in this series better. ;) Just not this time and episode 2. Part of it seems to have to do with the better budget and the fact Nise was more merciful in attacking your eyes with seizure inducing flashes. Although I never rated a Bake episode extremely low like I did with Nise, I also never rated an episode that highly either. Of course, I'm sort of a peripheral fan of this series (I simply understand this series wasn't meant for me but I enjoy other things about it-- I'm not the type that's in a perpetual rage and goes into series I don't like so far in just to randomly hate on it to waste your time. ;) *cough*), and I understand I often like Nise better for the same reasons a lot of my friends that are fans like Bake better.

Edit: So you'll never hear me saying this series has sold out or w/e. Chances are it's just selling out to me. :p

[Evil_Sephiroth]

Ok watched this only today (damn Work)

I Have only to say one thing

That's my face after ep.8^^

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/832/fxsdcgsd.jpg

Btw I love this episode a lot^^

Then 10/10

[Dr. Casey]

I've never watched Bakemonogatari or Nisemonogatari but now I kinda want to just to see what all the fuss is about this episode, lol

[00Coyote]

I've never watched Bakemonogatari or Nisemonogatari but now I kinda want to just to see what all the fuss is about this episode, lol
Don't do it! You'll be branded a pervert for life, and pick up all manner of socially unacceptable fetishes. Soon, you'd be living in an abandoned cram school, eating nothing but donuts, yet have surprisingly clean teeth.

[Dr. Casey]

Don't do it! You'll be branded a pervert for life, and pick up all manner of socially unacceptable fetishes. Soon, you'd be living in an abandoned cram school, eating nothing but donuts, yet have surprisingly clean teeth.

D:

... eating nothing but donuts sounds pretty nice. brb, watching Bakemonogatari.

[Essa Maneira]

Toothbrush redifined...

This is a useful tool, commonly found in the range of 6 inches long, the functioning of which is enjoyed by members of both sexes. It is usually found hung, dangling loosely, ready for instant action. It boasts of a clump of little hairy things at one end
and a small hole at the other. In use, it is quickly inserted, almost always willingly, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly, into a warm, fleshy, moist opening where it is thrust in and drawn out again and again many times in succession, often quickly and accompanied by squirming bodily movements. Anyone found listening in will most surely recognize the rhythmic, pulsing sound resulting from the well-lubricated movements. When finally withdrawn, it leaves behind a juicy, frothy, sticky white substance, some of which will need cleaning from the outer surfaces of the opening and some from its long glistening shaft. After everything is done and the flowing and cleansing liquids have ceased emanating, it is returned to its freely hanging state of rest, ready for yet another bit of action, hopefully reaching its bristling climax twice or three times a day, but often much less. What is it?

I'm totally agree with this definition. Very descriptive and straight to the point! :D:D

[DragoonKain3]

I think this episode displays why I don't hold the bakemonogatari series in high regard... all this development/hints for Karen, to what end? Within the next episode or two it will be 'forgotten' by the characters, like say Nadeko's twister. So this episode establishes that Koyomi might have incestuous feelings for his sister, but so what? Will anything come of it? Next to nil chance of happening, really, if previous 'hints' for other heroines are of any indication.

But I guess that's just how the series rolls, since it establishes the official couple relatively early in the story. Don't get me wrong, the episode was executed pretty darn well, and it oozes with originality, but I fail to see how it affect the overall plot (at least romance wise). Other girls are just 'flavour of the arc' distractions, before it all comes back to Hitagi. Meh...

[0utf0xZer0]

I think another conversation helped me figured out why I don't like this as much as other Monogatari fanservice, so I'll cross post it here:

"My main issue with the scene is Koyomi's lines - somehow they gave too much of an "air of reality" to him being attracted to his sister, which makes it seem more creepy than tongue in cheek. 99% of the fun of Monogatari fanservice comes from the tongue in cheek embellishment (which is half the fun of the rest of the show too) of the scenario/sexual tension, which I find amusing in a surrealist/absurdist way. Giving the scene too much of an air of reality undermines all that, which is why I consider this one of the worst Monogatari fanservice scenes I've seen.

The "air of reality" given to Koyomi's attraction also has the side effect of coming across as really, really weird given the lack of much reason for him to be attracted to his sister."

Hmmm. Will I remember this scene in five years? I think so. It is more erotic (and more artistic, inventive, and comic) than just some simple "fanservice" scene. I certainly remember a couple of the erotic scenes in the 2010 incest anime, Yosuga no Sora. By the way, I think that may be a source for the stretched toes image in this scene. Of course, if things keep on moving as they are, this may seem like weaksauce by the time five years have passed.

Hmmm... personally I find this scene memorable in a "Touka Gettan episode 3" way - I remember TG episode 3, but it's not something I think about a lot. Course, this is from a much bigger, better known show.

[GenjiChan]

It's nice to see Koyomi's sister decided to join the Harem... at a jaw dropping way..

"Ah, I'm such a lucky, lucky guy..."

[Malkuth]

this scene will go down in Anime Lore along side Shinji's visit to Asuka Hospital Room.

At the rate things have been going down in the last few years, I'm very afraid to even consider how ecchi will evolve in the next five.

I think Xellos just gave an example that things are not all that different now and then. Ecchi done so creatively is a very good thing :D

uhmm I just watched Ep 8....

just...wow

I seriously thought I was watching the 1st Ep of a hentai series...which i dont mind, good stuff Japan, once again you surpased my expectatives.

I wish the majority of animated hentai were remotely close to Nise-

[GenjiChan]

I wish the majority of animated hentai were remotely close to Nise-

That might be good but hentai focus on sex...and adding a load of dialogues (that requires thinking) may spoil the mood.

But I like the suggestion coz there were a lot of hentai in the past that has sense, for me( e.g Urotsukidoji ):heh:

[Archon_Wing]

It's actually true that well done ecchi will frequently outperform hentai because hentai often looks like crap despite the fact that visuals are really all that matter, well maybe voices... definitely not plot. :D They just want to go low budget and churn it out I guess.

Though imo, this ero doesn't hold up to stuff like Kanojo x Kanojo x Kanojo :3 That's not really a fair comparison though.

[Demi.]

Though imo, this ero doesn't hold up to stuff like Kanojo x Kanojo x Kanojo :3 That's not really a fair comparison though.

As far as Ero goes, K x K x K does in fact wipe the teeth floor with Nise. It is sad that most hentai look like crap. But Kanojo is evidence of what one looks like when done well...:D

[revive4563]

Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll - Replies:461

understandable.:heh:

[RegalStar]

Tsukihi taking off like a road runner really sealed the deal of that scene for me.

[Catalan]

I think another conversation helped me figured out why I don't like this as much as other Monogatari fanservice, so I'll cross post it here:

"My main issue with the scene is Koyomi's lines - somehow they gave too much of an "air of reality" to him being attracted to his sister, which makes it seem more creepy than tongue in cheek. 99% of the fun of Monogatari fanservice comes from the tongue in cheek embellishment (which is half the fun of the rest of the show too) of the scenario/sexual tension, which I find amusing in a surrealist/absurdist way. Giving the scene too much of an air of reality undermines all that, which is why I consider this one of the worst Monogatari fanservice scenes I've seen.

The "air of reality" given to Koyomi's attraction also has the side effect of coming across as really, really weird given the lack of much reason for him to be attracted to his sister."That's the first time I've heard anyone mention there being an "air of reality". Whose conversation did you pick that up from? I wonder how much air of reality can be ascribed to this if there's a lack of reason for the attraction.

[Master Chibi]

Honestly I think this entire season is a worthless sack of unnecessary crap so I'm just salvaging what I can with the fan service and leaving it in the dirt afterwards.

"ARARAGI KUN WE MUST TALK"

"OK"

"LISTEN ARARGI KUN"

*poses in 400 different ways to show every god damn angle of her body*

"YOURE RIGHT WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW"

*pans up from the floor on her then zooms out*

END SEASON

[Solace]

Congrats, you've summed up every episode of Bake and Nise made. I'm not really sure why things are so different now that the fanservice is so blatant. It just seems silly. The whole series is full of anime fetishes, from lolis to catgirls to yanderes throwing office equipment like she's a deadly ninja, to occult references, vampires, and wincest.

It wasn't Nadeshiko with the writhing around, it wasn't Hitagi insulting everyone in every scene, it wasn't Tsubasa running around in her pj's, loli Shinobu in the bath, or anything else. No no, it's this, the toothbrush...that's the line. Right. :rolleyes:

I can understand complaints like "I didn't find it arousing" or "It's not my kind of humor". I can understand complaints like "I didn't find it artistic" or "The voice acting was overdone". What I don't understand is people complaining about the very basics of the entire show: people talking about random stuff while random stuff happens in the plot and on screen. If you think the characters are going to burst out in any kind of exposition and explain the stuff you really do care about, that's unlikely to happen. There's enough novel material for another 10+ seasons of Monogatari, so unless you can read Japanese or know a good translator willing to put in the very difficult effort of translating (remember, nothing but lots and lots of text and it's all heavily layered with puns and references), you're SOL in the story explaining much of anything.

The whole story is the authors mental masturbation. The only thing more exaggerated than the fanservice that I've seen is too many viewer expectations conflicting with reality. Just sit back, enjoy the fanservice, and stop treating this stuff like serious business.

[Proto]

What are you talking about? I'm here for the plot.

[00Coyote]

I'm here for the dissertation on the economics of scale for the treatment and dissemination of occult phenomenon to middle school girls, and the psychological and social ramifications of such and act.

This is serious business, only a sociopath would call such a serious topic of discussion 'entertainment.'

[Shikijin]

It took me a while, stuff that got cut from the novel.
-Araragi starts by saying that as siblings he and Karen don't get on well. Even the incident with Kaiki did nothing to rehabilitate his sisters. Araragi complained that Kaiki has been totally useless and just bothersome all around. Araragi even says that things like incest are for the elite whereas he is just middle class, so unless he wins a lottery it's not for him.
-Araragi mentions that when Hanekawa gets angry her shoulders tremble, and so does her breast, so he would like for Hanekawa to get angry more.
-Karen kicked open the door of Araragi's room like she were a detective entering the culprit's hideout. That's her standard way of opening a door. Whether it's Japanese style door or Western style door.
-Araragi thought breaking his pencil was a bad omen about his exams.
-Araragi says Karen would be able to fight a wild animal. He has even seen her punching through a wall of plaster. And then he had to further destroy the wall to get her fist out. It was a scene like the bonus stage of an old fighting game. And that sister was hugging him from behind. That aside, he didn't particularly like to get hugged from his sisters.
-Araragi says that for Karen her tracksuit was like the Cloth for a Saint.
-When Karen tried to assume a coquettish pose, Araragi could only think of it as a martial arts pose. Since there was a story about Karen winning over a lion at a zoo just by staring at it, he had no choice but to agree she was cute. No wait, he was just stuttering "(my throat) got dry". And similarly he also stuttered "(my skin) got dry, (the atmosphere) got dry, (the root of the tongue) got super dry". Nothing more than that. Karen then was so happy she jumped to hug him, in a body attack similar to the one that destroyed a deteriorated steel frame at school. He heard his ribs creak. She was squeezing so hard he feared being split in two by Karen's physical strength. A sister who went dere is a serious thing.
-When kneeling Karen struck her forehead on the ground as if to show feelings of rebellion against mother Earth (gotta love these metaphors).
-Araragi trampled on her head as revenge for making him feel nervous before (though he wasn't nervous!). It seems Karen is used to big efforts to achieve her goals, so something like that was even enjoyable for her. She is definitively M.
-The novel actually mentions Karen got her eyes burning with flames and that she performed a moonsault jump inside the room receiving five 10s.
-Karen landed on the bed making it creak. Araragi was thinking that from now on he had to sleep less comfortably.
-Kanbaru's fanclub is "Kanbaru's soeurs" (French for "sisters").
-When Karen hit him in the solar plexus, Araragi felt like his liver had disappeared.
-Araragi actually mentions he watches PreCure.
-Araragi says that Karen is one who thinks that with willpower 1+1=3.
-There was plenty of thought behind the decision of using the toothbrush for the contest, as if the contest was too unfair Karen wouldn't have ackwnoledged defeat, and if the contest was too difficult it could have made Karen even more fired up. In fact, reflecting on her willpower, Araragi starts thinking that maybe Karen is not his real sister, she could be his sister-in-law. If that was true then he would find her moe.
-When Araragi returned to his room with the toothbrush, she saw Karen on the bed. He wasn't happy with Karen doing as she pleased in his room, and he also noted even her underwear was Tsukihi's.
-It seems in the past Tsukihi actually did something similar to a toothbrush in the butt to the stalker of a classmate. Karen notes Tsukihi, unlike her brother, didn't go as far as using even toothpaste. Anyway, for Karen it couldn't be helped since the other guy was a stalker. Araragi thought it would be better to hide the fact even Kanbaru stalked him in the past. Karen also adds right now Tsukihi is investigating on a guy, rather than a stalker directly a pervert, a highschooler who molested a gradeschooler. Unluckily there are too few eyewitnesses. Karen says that she won't leave Tsukihi handling such scum alone if they find him. Araragi asks her to report things to him too, as it won't do any bad. Karen is pleased the heart of justice is burning even inside her brother. Anyway, she is puzzled about what to use a toothbrush for if not for sticking in the butt. Araragi had to explain it is used to brush teeth, and it can also be used to clean tight spots. Araragi mentally remembers it was time to help Kanbaru clean her room again.
-When Araragi says girls may not like when people touch their hair, he remember that time he played with Hachikuji pretending she was a Harley Davidson. It seems she was so mad she used casual speech.
-When Karen sits on the bed for the contest, her skirt get flipped up. Araragi thinks it's better if she doesn't wear skirts.
-Karen noticed the predicament she had fallen in after a minute passed and Araragi was starting brushing her gums.
-"Don't resent me, Karen. I'm doing this to protect you!"
-Araragi was surprised Karen was able to resist so much. He noticed the idea of giving pleasure to her younger sister to break her will was as depraved as a shoujo manga. Then he realized he was violating a forbidden taboo. He compared it to tobacco, which is so widespread exactly because it's unhealthy. As he continued, he felt as if he was born to brush Karen's teeth.
-Even in the novel Tsukihi in a daze is described with round eyes and mouth, like a clay figure, and then later she changes her eyes to a triangle shape. She speaks her first lines in Kyoto dialect, the Gyon variant.
-Araragi had to admit it was hard for anyone to misunderstand that situation. And he and Karen speaking and pointing finger in synchro could give an even worse impression.

[teja208]

It took me a while, stuff that got cut from the novel.
-Araragi starts by saying that as siblings he and Karen don't get on well. Even the incident with Kaiki did nothing to rehabilitate his sisters. Araragi complained that Kaiki has been totally useless and just bothersome all around.
Really? I thought her wearing skirt is her attempt to "get along better" with her Nii-chan. It has been around 2 weeks since Karen Bee, it is suprising that nothing happened until this episode.
-Araragi even says that things like incest are for the elite whereas he is just middle class, so unless he wins a lottery it's not for him.
I don't know where he got the idea, but he is one now.:heh:
-Araragi mentions that when Hanekawa gets angry her shoulders tremble, and so does her breast, so he would like for Hanekawa to get angry more.
I also want to see that. Too bad it wasn't shown in the anime.
-Araragi says that for Karen her tracksuit was like the Cloth for a Saint.
Err what?
-The novel actually mentions Karen got her eyes burning with flames and that she performed a moonsault jump inside the room receiving five 10s.
I'm impressed that so much was included in the novel.
-Kanbaru's fanclub is "Kanbaru's soeurs" (French for "sisters").
Does member get their membership rosery?
-Araragi actually mentions he watches PreCure.
Doesn't seemed like the type of show he would enjoy. Oh well.
-Araragi starts thinking that maybe Karen is not his real sister, she could be his sister-in-law. If that was true then he would find her moe.
So that's the starting point where he open his heart to the forbidden world of siscon? If moe by definition of feeling protective toward the person, then he got the meaning mix up. Guess he meant able to "turn on" by his sister then.
-and he also noted even her underwear was Tsukihi's.
Well, thanks for even bother telling us that Araragi. I don't know you notice whoes panties belongs to whom. I don't even care about that when I wash my families laundry.
-Karen also adds right now Tsukihi is investigating on a guy, rather than a stalker directly a pervert, a highschooler who molested a gradeschooler. Unluckily there are too few eyewitnesses. Karen says that she won't leave Tsukihi handling such scum alone if they find him. Araragi asks her to report things to him too, as it won't do any bad.
I have an idea who she is refering to. You do better watch yourself Necropedo Arararagi-san.:p
-Araragi was surprised Karen was able to resist so much. He noticed the idea of giving pleasure to her younger sister to break her will was as depraved as a shoujo manga.
Sorry, I don't understand the shoujo manga metaphor. Can you explain a little better?
-Then he realized he was violating a forbidden taboo. He compared it to tobacco, which is so widespread exactly because it's unhealthy. As he continued, he felt as if he was born to brush Karen's teeth.
I have no idea brushing other person's teeth do that much. Ohh the wonders of oral hygene sex.
-Even in the novel Tsukihi in a daze is described with round eyes and mouth, like a clay figure, and then later she changes her eyes to a triangle shape. She speaks her first lines in Kyoto dialect, the Gyon variant.
I never imagine novel even describes that much. Very impressive Nisio Isin and you too Shikijin for composing the whole summary.


Chapter 3? What about 1 and 2? Anyway thanks again keep it coming next week.

[omimon]

Chapter 3? What about 1 and 2? Anyway thanks again keep it coming next week.

All chapter ones in the series are merely intros that get a pasting mention. Chapter 2 takes place after chapter 3.

[Azn]

It took me a while, stuff that got cut from the novel.
-Araragi starts by saying that as siblings he and Karen don't get on well. Even the incident with Kaiki did nothing to rehabilitate his sisters. Araragi complained that Kaiki has been totally useless and just bothersome all around. Araragi even says that things like incest are for the elite whereas he is just middle class, so unless he wins a lottery it's not for him.
-Araragi mentions that when Hanekawa gets angry her shoulders tremble, and so does her breast, so he would like for Hanekawa to get angry more.
-Karen kicked open the door of Araragi's room like she were a detective entering the culprit's hideout. That's her standard way of opening a door. Whether it's Japanese style door or Western style door.
-Araragi thought breaking his pencil was a bad omen about his exams.
-Araragi says Karen would be able to fight a wild animal. He has even seen her punching through a wall of plaster. And then he had to further destroy the wall to get her fist out. It was a scene like the bonus stage of an old fighting game. And that sister was hugging him from behind. That aside, he didn't particularly like to get hugged from his sisters.
-Araragi says that for Karen her tracksuit was like the Cloth for a Saint.
-When Karen tried to assume a coquettish pose, Araragi could only think of it as a martial arts pose. Since there was a story about Karen winning over a lion at a zoo just by staring at it, he had no choice but to agree she was cute. No wait, he was just stuttering "(my throat) got dry". And similarly he also stuttered "(my skin) got dry, (the atmosphere) got dry, (the root of the tongue) got super dry". Nothing more than that. Karen then was so happy she jumped to hug him, in a body attack similar to the one that destroyed a deteriorated steel frame at school. He heard his ribs creak. She was squeezing so hard he feared being split in two by Karen's physical strength. A sister who went dere is a serious thing.
-When kneeling Karen struck her forehead on the ground as if to show feelings of rebellion against mother Earth (gotta love these metaphors).
-Araragi trampled on her head as revenge for making him feel nervous before (though he wasn't nervous!). It seems Karen is used to big efforts to achieve her goals, so something like that was even enjoyable for her. She is definitively M.
-The novel actually mentions Karen got her eyes burning with flames and that she performed a moonsault jump inside the room receiving five 10s.
-Karen landed on the bed making it creak. Araragi was thinking that from now on he had to sleep less comfortably.
-Kanbaru's fanclub is "Kanbaru's soeurs" (French for "sisters").
-When Karen hit him in the solar plexus, Araragi felt like his liver had disappeared.
-Araragi actually mentions he watches PreCure.
-Araragi says that Karen is one who thinks that with willpower 1+1=3.
-There was plenty of thought behind the decision of using the toothbrush for the contest, as if the contest was too unfair Karen wouldn't have ackwnoledged defeat, and if the contest was too difficult it could have made Karen even more fired up. In fact, reflecting on her willpower, Araragi starts thinking that maybe Karen is not his real sister, she could be his sister-in-law. If that was true then he would find her moe.
-When Araragi returned to his room with the toothbrush, she saw Karen on the bed. He wasn't happy with Karen doing as she pleased in his room, and he also noted even her underwear was Tsukihi's.
-It seems in the past Tsukihi actually did something similar to a toothbrush in the butt to the stalker of a classmate. Karen notes Tsukihi, unlike her brother, didn't go as far as using even toothpaste. Anyway, for Karen it couldn't be helped since the other guy was a stalker. Araragi thought it would be better to hide the fact even Kanbaru stalked him in the past. Karen also adds right now Tsukihi is investigating on a guy, rather than a stalker directly a pervert, a highschooler who molested a gradeschooler. Unluckily there are too few eyewitnesses. Karen says that she won't leave Tsukihi handling such scum alone if they find him. Araragi asks her to report things to him too, as it won't do any bad. Karen is pleased the heart of justice is burning even inside her brother. Anyway, she is puzzled about what to use a toothbrush for if not for sticking in the butt. Araragi had to explain it is used to brush teeth, and it can also be used to clean tight spots. Araragi mentally remembers it was time to help Kanbaru clean her room again.
-When Araragi says girls may not like when people touch their hair, he remember that time he played with Hachikuji pretending she was a Harley Davidson. It seems she was so mad she used casual speech.
-When Karen sits on the bed for the contest, her skirt get flipped up. Araragi thinks it's better if she doesn't wear skirts.
-Karen noticed the predicament she had fallen in after a minute passed and Araragi was starting brushing her gums.
-"Don't resent me, Karen. I'm doing this to protect you!"
-Araragi was surprised Karen was able to resist so much. He noticed the idea of giving pleasure to her younger sister to break her will was as depraved as a shoujo manga. Then he realized he was violating a forbidden taboo. He compared it to tobacco, which is so widespread exactly because it's unhealthy. As he continued, he felt as if he was born to brush Karen's teeth.
-Even in the novel Tsukihi in a daze is described with round eyes and mouth, like a clay figure, and then later she changes her eyes to a triangle shape. She speaks her first lines in Kyoto dialect, the Gyon variant.
-Araragi had to admit it was hard for anyone to misunderstand that situation. And he and Karen speaking and pointing finger in synchro could give an even worse impression.
Wow thanks for this. Definitely don't think Araragi can say they don't "get on well" anymore. Well, for Karen at least.

[MumSaidImSpecial]

just one word: WINCEST

[Huatuo]

......THIS.....IS......EPIC.......I praise the toothbrush of creating an GODLY INSECTISM SCENE. Toothbrush....I will respect you even more.

I was so caught up in it, that the 24 min of heaven vanish before my eyes!!!!! NOW I CAN DIE HAPPY!!!! ARARAGI SIBLING INSECTISM!!! XD I never get bored seeing this episode over and over again. I SHALL REMEMBER NISEMONOGATARI EPISODE 8 FOREVER IN MY HEART!!!!!

I give 9000/10 (IF I CAN) XD

(Voice acting of Kamiya Hiroshi and Kitamura Eri remind me of Otonashi and Yui from AB XD)

[Kyuu]

FYI. I got dizzy after watching this eps. :eyespin:

[GenjiChan]

I just realized it now... she didn't wash her mouth after brushing. . .

[Kyuu]

I just realized it now... she didn't wash her mouth after brushing. . .

Well, she has two options:
Spit or Swallow
:eyespin:

[GenjiChan]

Well, she has two options:
Spit or Swallow
:eyespin:

Either ways will definitely spoil the mood.:eyespin:

[captchaluff]

Wow. I, uh... I just...
How am I supposed to react to that?
I rather like incest stories, so in any other scenario I would probably be rolling around on the floor, fangirling. However...
I think my brother has seen this before. When I started watching in on Hulu, he came in, looked at the scene, warned us that it was a "weaboo anime", then left.
Oh, and I watched it with my sister. AWKWARD.

[GenjiChan]

Wow. I, uh... I just...
How am I supposed to react to that?
I rather like incest stories, so in any other scenario I would probably be rolling around on the floor, fangirling. However...
I think my brother has seen this before. When I started watching in on Hulu, he came in, looked at the scene, warned us that it was a "weaboo anime", then left.
Oh, and I watched it with my sister. AWKWARD.


Your sister?.. HMmm..... yah.... hmmm...

Its just brushing anyway.... :heh::eyespin:

[Shikijin]

When I started watching in on Hulu, he came in, looked at the scene, warned us that it was a "weaboo anime", then left.Weaboo doesn't mean anything anymore when it's used at random like this.
Oh, and I watched it with my sister. AWKWARD.Maybe Nisemonogatari is not be the best thing to watch with a sister :heh: