Friendship and lovers

[Worldestroyer]

I truly enjoyed the enitre season of M-sgA and i found every episode interesting. This thread is not ment to argue about anything it's just a question.

Is it only me, or is it difficult to seperate "sisterly" and yuri love in the series? At first i accepted all situations as "sisterly" love since there was no reason to think otherwise. Although i always felt like it was the edge. Then came ep9-12 with the book thing and the lovers (i forgot the situation). And after thinking about the entire season i'm having difficulty seperating yuri and sisterly love. I don't mind yuri (actually i would prefer it) but w/o being certain, most of the nice and pure scenes in the series are now stained with yuri (no pun intended).

[mantidor]

i can't consider myself an expert on marimite, but for what i've seen their relationships are not defined. Is very girly IMO that two girls go around holding hands,so the line is very, very blurry, and i think that makes their relations more interesting. Is just a really deep friendship, or does it cross the line??? is great to speculate about this subject, i have the impression that even at the end of the whole series we wouldn't be sure about it...

To make it simple, i think that Sei and Shiori are what you would consider yuri, while the other girls are ( for now...) just friends.

Is so great to have an all-girl school anime, now what we need is an all-boy school anime!...:D

[Tzurial]

I found it difficult too. Though I tried to just 'watch' the show, I couldn't help but attempt to assign the relationships into sisterly, shoujo-ai, or yuri categories. I think when a show tries to attempt actual affairs between girls (instead of climax inducing hentai..though I guess those can be actual too) it's hard to separate and label the relationships because girls just grow close to eachother naturally. I think marimite, instead of trying to be specifically yuri or shoujo-ai, seemed to define that point where youre old enough to genuinely feel love for another girl but too young to understand about all the 'yuri' aspects. (This is coming from a girls perspective so Im guessing a lot of guys didn't quite go through this during adolescence)

Anyway, I guess I didn't really have a point to this..not quite arguing or answering anything just spouting nonsense!!

[aniforever]

i can't consider myself an expert on marimite, but for what i've seen their relationships are not defined. Is very girly IMO that two girls go around holding hands,so the line is very, very blurry, and i think that makes their relations more interesting. Is just a really deep friendship, or does it cross the line??? is great to speculate about this subject, i have the impression that even at the end of the whole series we wouldn't be sure about it...

To make it simple, i think that Sei and Shiori are what you would consider yuri, while the other girls are ( for now...) just friends.

Is so great to have an all-girl school anime, now what we need is an all-boy school anime!...:D

hmm....yumi's brother goes to a all boys school right? maybe they can make an anime about his school. who knows.

well since the beginning i have always hope that it would become a shoujo-ai anime. though a lot of people would just interpret the relationships as shoujo or s-class. from one post i remember reading that the relationship between sei and shiori can be consider as s-class where it's a phase that girls go through and will eventually grow out of when they grow older. s-class can go as far as touching or intimate relationship which i think is weird since if that is the case then where do you draw the line with s-class. hmm... hope it doesn't involve bed scenes. kekek.

overall i have no idea what the title is for the relationships in marmite. i guess it's up to the individual who watches marmite to assume/imagine/ or wish what they want between the relationships. for me shoujo-ai all the way. yay. hehe.

[laurore31]

I think it's love (to Yumi for Sachiko, Rei/Yoshino, Shiori/Sei, Canina for Sei...) but how to define it ?

there is no precise act, but all is in the heart :) it is necessary to acknowledge that their relations are too ambiguous to be friendship. especially when Sei said "Sachiko, do not worry, we won't take off our clothes to play with our bodies! " i loved the face of Sachiko at this moment !!! then, it's not friendship...

[aniforever]

I think it's love (to Yumi for Sachiko, Rei/Yoshino, Shiori/Sei, Canina for Sei...) but how to define it ?

there is no precise act, but all is in the heart :) it is necessary to acknowledge that their relations are too ambiguous to be friendship. especially when Sei said "Sachiko, do not worry, we won't take off our clothes to play with our bodies! " i loved the face of Sachiko at this moment !!! then, it's not friendship...


hehe yea i love that part but i thought it ended with "we won't take off our uniform and play around." did i miss the "with our bodies" part?

iono all the relationships in marmite is confusing or at least people interpret it that way. i really like sei since she can really lighten up the room and be comforting when needed to. for my fav pair it has to be rei and yoshino all the way. i just love the evil yoshino laugh. kekek

[atua]

I've already said some stuff about this in the Sei & Shiori (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=154982&postcount=14) thread, but I basically agree with mantidor in thinking that Sei/Shiori and Sei/Shizuka is shoujo-ai, whilst the rest are just friends (for now).

Whilst I can see why some people think Yumi is in love with Sachiko, I don't think Sachiko feels the same way about Yumi right now. They're both so insecure, and they have a difficult time opening up their feelings to each other.

As for Yoshino/Rei, I see them wanting to be each other's center of attention, particularly with Yoshino. That isn't to say they don't love each other because clearly they do, but I just don't really see it as a "romantic" love.

I think it's likely I'll rethink Yumi/Sachiko if Season 2 gets up to the Rainy Blue/Parasol o Sashite arc. I'm also really looking forward to seeing how Shimako/Noriko turns out.

[MercuryKnight]

I personally envy the fact the girls can have relationships where they can publicly show their feelings for each other.
If guys acted that way they'd all be labeled gay.
I don't believe that love=yuri.
The relationships between the girls definitely can be defined as love as far as I'm concerned.
I personally think it's a shame the people suppress their feelings for each other because they might be missinterpreted by people who obviously don't know them.

[Shad da Von]

I also don't believe love=yuri.
I believe the majority of the relationships in Marimite are very loving, that is to say they genuinely care for each other much the same way as parents for their children or in this case between sisters/friends.
And its interesting that its frowned apon for guys to show feelings, almost ever really. This is more modern culture then anything I believe (I take my experience from north america) in the past I know it was still common for guys to pat each other on the shoulder or hug a friend that you missed etc.

[Göönk]

maybe you should start a poll and ask wether we think it's love or friendship.
IMO, after seeing the anime, it's friendship. But those who read the novels may think differently. Also, people used to japanese culture may think differently.

And in the end, what does it change? If it's love or friendship. hum?

[laurore31]

hehe yea i love that part but i thought it ended with "we won't take off our uniform and play around." did i miss the "with our bodies" part?

iono all the relationships in marmite is confusing or at least people interpret it that way. i really like sei since she can really lighten up the room and be comforting when needed to. for my fav pair it has to be rei and yoshino all the way. i just love the evil yoshino laugh. kekek

oups, sorry. i'm french. but play around without clothes.... is my interpretation mdrrrrr

[Shad da Von]

And in the end, what does it change? If it's love or friendship. hum?
perhaps our understanding of the situations? ^^

[Göönk]

perhaps our understanding of the situations? ^^No, I don't know, I don't feel like I need to know. I don't know why but I understand that some people need to know. I think I really don't care weither they're lesbian or not. Both cases are ok with me. It doesn't change the story or the facts. They want to be together. That's all that matters. From my point of view. What do you think?

[Shad da Von]

No, I don't know, I don't feel like I need to know. I don't know why but I understand that some people need to know. I think I really don't care weither they're lesbian or not. Both cases are ok with me. It doesn't change the story or the facts. They want to be together. That's all that matters. From my point of view. What do you think?
I personally feel its important to understand what people are about. Not only does it help one to understand their feelings in a situation and allow you to respond but also allows you to understand their true motives and thus you can avoid getting into destructive relationships a little better. Thats my personal opinion anyway.

[MercuryKnight]

No, I don't know, I don't feel like I need to know. I don't know why but I understand that some people need to know. I think I really don't care weither they're lesbian or not. Both cases are ok with me. It doesn't change the story or the facts. They want to be together. That's all that matters. From my point of view. What do you think?
In my point of view this show is all about relationships and I think understanding those relationships is paramount to getting the most out of the show. :)

:topicoff: I live in North America too and I personally haven't seen a lot of guys walking down the street holding hands who are just friends. :topicoff:

[Göönk]

:topicoff: I live in North America too and I personally haven't seen a lot of guys walking down the street holding hands who are just friends. :topicoff:yeah that's true... but in the other hand, I don't think that the whole Lilian school is gay...

Maybe the girls don't even know their own feelings.

We only know one thing for sure : worldestroyer has a BIG SIGNATURE

[Honkie_McGee]

I think discussions like this one just show how much people like this series. And now we have all Spring and Summer to analyze every nuance of every episode until the new season is rumored to start. :)
Is so great to have an all-girl school anime, now what we need is an all-boy school anime!...:D
The only all-boys school anime I know of is Here is Greenwood. Good luck finding it though. It was only released on VHS years ago, and I believe its been out of print for a while now.
We only know one thing for sure : worldestroyer has a BIG SIGNATURE
Indeed. :eyebrow:

[MercuryKnight]

yeah that's true... but in the other hand, I don't think that the whole Lilian school is gay...

Maybe the girls don't even know their own feelings.


I quite agree, what I was trying to point out is that it easier for girls to have the type of close relations that are portrayed in the anime without being stereo typed as gay or lesbian or yuri. That is much harder for guys because of social pressures. :)

I believe personally that there are very few yuri relationships in this show and thats certainly not what the shows about though it adds an interesting twist to the mix. :D

[Göönk]

That is much harder for guys because of social pressures. :)yeah, I cannot imagine social consequences of an "all boys pijama party". Or even, to relates fact that happened during the series, boys playing female characters in Cinderela.

Or boys that want to find the red/yellow/white card to go out with the "en button" petit frère (frère = brother in french)

Completely impossible for guys.

[Iskandar Taib]

I've seen this discussed elsewhere, in great detail, with other shows. I think the relationships run the gamut, from simple admiration, to hero worship, to romantic, and the romantic relationships may or may not be sexual. In all the various nuances, the relationships can get pretty obsessive. Jealousy can be involved (when another girl enters the picture), yet in some cases, it doesn't preclude one or the other partner falling in love with, and marrying, a man.

Take the relationship between Yumi and Sachiko, for instance. It affects Yumi to the point where she can't stand being near Sachiko, because it's too intense. Yet, later,

when we find that Sachiko loves a man, it doesn't make Yumi jealous, rather, it brings out sympathy and understanding. I don't think Rosa Gigantea would have reacted the same way if Shiori fell in love with a man.

If anyone's looking for another anime with relationships like this, try Oniisama E.. It is a great deal more intense, though, and it's not something I'd show to kids, due to the amount of mental anguish some of the characters go through.

I'll attach the long missive I wrote about this subject on a certain mailing list back in January:



Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:37:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Iskandar Taib <ntaib@alumni.indiana.edu>
Subject: Maria-sama ga Miteru

OK, this one's got a lot of spoilers in it, so I
suggest not reading ahead before watching episode 3.
My essay will be about the nature of the relationships
(or love) between girls that you find in anime like
this, so you really might want to come back to this
message after you've watched episode 3.


S
P
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I
L
E
R
S
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

What exactly does Yumi feel for Sachiko? We know, by
the end of the second episode, that she's a "fan" of
hers, that she admires her, that she empathizes with
her and tries to help her in her predicament, that
being close to Sachiko makes her nervous, that she
would have been happier admiring from afar. So the
love she feels is intense, wonderful, yet painful
sometimes, and in many ways, romantic.

We see more of this in the third episode. When
pressed, Yumi confesses to Rosa Gigantea that she
loves (suki) Sachiko. (And Rosa Gigantea says that so
does she - and so does Rosa Foetida and Rosa
Chinensis. And she's quite sure Shimako and Hoshino
feel the same way. But I wonder if it's the same sort
of thing.)

When Sachiko comes clean, and tells Yumi what is
actually going on, what do we see in Yumi? Not
jealousy, but rather, understanding, and sympathy.

So the love Yumi feels for Sachiko is not at all
affected by the fact that Sachiko loves a man. The two
aren't connected. Yumi's love for Sachiko is real,
it's intense, but it does not preclude the possibility
(or the expectation) that one of (or both) the girls
shall fall in love with men and/or marry, and have
children. Yumi and Sachiko may remain in love with
each other their entire lives, but that won't have
anything to do with their relationships with the
opposite sex. Jealousy CAN happen, but that's when
another girl is involved.

Barbara mentioned this a while back, in one of the
"liner notes" at the beginning of one of the Oniisama
E.. tapes. That the love one sees between schoolgirls
often isn't what, in the West, would be called lesbian
love. It's more based on admiration, and wanting to be
LIKE the object of one's love.

And as Barbara said, this might, or might not, apply
to certain characters... Nanako's feelings for Rei
(St. Juste) would perhaps be much like this (and just
as intense - remember the episode where they skipped
class together?), but Mariko's obsession with Nanako?
Or how about Rei's love for Miya-sama? Does it go
beyond this? In the last case, there's certainly
something twisted about it.

I must say, that final scene in Mary's Garden, in the
moonlight - that was pretty moving. If they had taken
the plot up to this point, and extended it through,
say, six episodes, and ended the story with that, it
would still have been one really good story. As it is,
I can't wait for the next installment to see where
they plan to take the show.

On an unrelated note.. strangely enough, in a
synopsis of the manga that I've read, Hanadera is
supposed to be a BUDDHIST school.. ! Yumi's brother
Yuuki goes to it.. Hmmm.. they're both in the first
year. Are they twins?

I mentioned earlier that this anime is very unlike
Oniisama E.. There isn't a queen bee figure like
Miya-sama, and there is no fawning admiration for any
particular person or persons. The Yamayurikai usually
get along pretty well, and the younger members aren't
afraid to speak up. No cruelty that I've seen as yet,
and they all care for each other.

I really like this show. As much as I liked Oniisama
E.., and in a somewhat different way. With Oniisama
E.., it was the suspense, the convolutions, the
character interactions. But with Oniisama E.. there
was this sense of disbelief, that the storytelling was
too intense to be real, and in that I found some
degree of humor. With this show, that sense of
disbelief isn't there. It's intense, yes, but not over
the top. Then again, it's still early...

Iskandar

[dreamless]

I think it's defined as "more than friendship, but less than love" kind of feelings...

[MercuryKnight]

The relationships vary from admiration to friendship to love. What really interests me is that each relationship seems to have an under lining reason for coming about. When I watched the first show I got the feeling that being a seour was like a popularity contest and certainly when you meet the first two petite seours you get the idea, but as the shows progress you start to realize that it's much more than that. The older sisters really care about there petite seours and are doing their very best to help them grow and mature into young adults. In the same vane each of the relationships is different because of each girls personallity and each girl having different needs. I personally find the whole thing fascinating.

:)

For me that's what makes this such a great show.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

i can't consider myself an expert on marimite, but for what i've seen their relationships are not defined. Is very girly IMO that two girls go around holding hands,so the line is very, very blurry, and i think that makes their relations more interesting. Is just a really deep friendship, or does it cross the line??? is great to speculate about this subject, i have the impression that even at the end of the whole series we wouldn't be sure about it...

To make it simple, i think that Sei and Shiori are what you would consider yuri, while the other girls are ( for now...) just friends.

Is so great to have an all-girl school anime, now what we need is an all-boy school anime!...:D

There's Kaze to Ki no uta from the early 1970's that is said to be first shounen ai manga series or one of the earliest ones. It's by keiko takemiya and takes place in a french all boys school. There's a 40 minute oav that has been fansubbed too.

Someone else mentioned Koko wa Green wood. Rumors have it that viz has licensed the manga.

manga about boys in all boy school are not that hard to find in yaoi genre ^^;

anime wise:
Kaze to ki no uta
koko wa greenwood
Natsu e no Tobira (doorway into summer)


going back to girls , has anyone seen Brother dear Brother? it predates Maria-sama by about 25 or so years and was made into 39 episode anime in early 1990's . Similar concept about girls with strong feelings for other girls set in a sorority type setting. The difference is that the characters are not all that loveable as Maria-sama. They have ISSUES and some could benefit from some psychiatric counselling but I find it a very interesting and complex relationship and character driven story that crosses the friendshipg-shoujo ai line.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

Am I the only one here that thinks that these two have something going on more than just familial love? dude come on. Did you see the feeling of anguish on Yoshino's face when whatsherface was clinging onto Rei's arm in ep 12?
There's just a bit more than just them caring for each other in a platonic way.
I don't think that all the girls are lesbians or in love with each other but certain relationships imho do come off more than just platonic or familial love.

[MercuryKnight]

Am I the only one here that thinks that these two have something going on more than just familial love? dude come on. Did you see the feeling of anguish on Yoshino's face when whatsherface was clinging onto Rei's arm in ep 12?
There's just a bit more than just them caring for each other in a platonic way.
I don't think that all the girls are lesbians or in love with each other but certain relationships imho do come off more than just platonic or familial love.

I don't agree, though I may be wrong, but if you have a best friend and you see someone else with that best friend, do you not feel jealousy. You would if you didn't have many friends. Yoshino's not been well, doesn't have many friends because of it and she openly admits that to Yumi in one of thier conversations. In that case yes I can see that anguish because her best friend is seemingly close to another person. :)

Just my opinion. :) Mercury.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

I don't agree, though I may be wrong, but if you have a best friend and you see someone else with that best friend, do you not feel jealousy. You would if you didn't have many friends. Yoshino's not been well, doesn't have many friends because of it and she openly admits that to Yumi in one of thier conversations. In that case yes I can see that anguish because her best friend is seemingly close to another person. :)

Just my opinion. :) Mercury.

that's the great thing about Maria-mite it leaves a lot up for interpretation. I respect your opinion but I see it differently :p

[atua]

I think Yoshino is so upset because Rei is basically the center of her personal universe. Like MercuryKnight said, Yoshino's had to take a lot of time off from school because of her illness and so don't have many friends apart from Rei. So Rei has been Yoshino's best friend, confidant, play mate, etc all rolled into one. On the other hand, from all appearances Rei seems to be a very popular member of Lilian, probably from kindergarden/primary school. I think in more private moments, Yoshino sometimes wonders just how little she has to offer Rei (given her medical condition) to make Rei want to stay her friend, especially compared to all the fans who so clearly adore and admire Rei. So basically the whole yellow rose date played right into Yoshino's worst fears, and she reacted initially with jealousy at the thought of Rei spending time with someone else, and later on with anguish at the thought that she's replacable in Rei's heart, when Rei reacted so kindly at Tanuma Chisato's attempts to be more intimate.

In my personal experience, it's not that unusal to see best friends become very possessive of each other's time and company. Perhaps they're not as jealous as Yoshino, but then again they haven't been through what Yoshino has.

[Worldestroyer]

First off.... ARE YOU HAPPY WITH MY SIG NOW?...... anyways i think some relationships go farther then friendship and some just level off. We don't really know unless there is some more specific manga or maybe a more risk'e sequal.

[atua]

We don't really know unless there is some more specific manga or maybe a more risk'e sequal.

I think it *is* possible to come to some conclusions about the relationships on the series even if we don't see more explicit scenes. I'd like to think that the audience is intelligent enough to pick up certain subtext without being beaten over the head with it. Actually I'm glad there aren't any risque scenes in series 1, and sincerely hope that this stays the case in series 2. As others have said, fanservice do not always have to be of a sexual nature.

[MercuryKnight]

I think it *is* possible to come to some conclusions about the relationships on the series even if we don't see more explicit scenes. I'd like to think that the audience is intelligent enough to pick up certain subtext without being beaten over the head with it. Actually I'm glad there aren't any risque scenes in series 1, and sincerely hope that this stays the case in series 2. As others have said, fanservice do not always have to be of a sexual nature.
I agree atua, not only that, but I think that one of the things I like most about the show is the relationships and how they develop. I think you can get a good understanding of the relationships by how they interact with each other and with characters outside of the relationship. Things like Yumi and Yoshino's facial expressions give you insite into how they feel about other people. Also tidbits of things that they drop in conversation. There are all kinds of clues, all you have to do is put them together and even then not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion. Which makes threads like this so much fun. :D

[Ialdaboth]

going back to girls , has anyone seen Brother dear Brother? it predates Maria-sama by about 25 or so years and was made into 39 episode anime in early 1990's . Similar concept about girls with strong feelings for other girls set in a sorority type setting. The difference is that the characters are not all that loveable as Maria-sama. They have ISSUES and some could benefit from some psychiatric counselling but I find it a very interesting and complex relationship and character driven story that crosses the friendshipg-shoujo ai line.

I've seen episodes 1-20 of BDB, and yes, the concept is very similar (young, pure, innocent and quite normal girl brought to the attention of the Greater Powers of the school - in fact, the Yuri Ml already did the comparison Marimite / BDB or Utena). The main difference is that BDB, being a work from Riyoko Ikdeda, is overly dramatical (IMO, and according to what i know of Ikeda-sensei works, meaning Versailles no bara). Marimite is way more tame and uneventful ^^

And the lesbian thing... Please, stop seeing lesbians at every corners. Apart maybe the Sei x Shiori episode, the relations in the serie are mainly sexless and more a question of mutual respect and strong friendship. Well, I think ^^.

[MercuryKnight]

And the lesbian thing... Please, stop seeing lesbians at every corners. Apart maybe the Sei x Shiori episode, the relations in the serie are mainly sexless and more a question of mutual respect and strong friendship. Well, I think ^^.
I agree that some people seem to read a bit too much into the whole lesbian thing, that is their perception or opinion and they're certianly entitled to that. Though I believe there is very little of that in the existing relationships, I think it adds to the story. The fact that Sei had such a relationship and Yumi knows about it seems intregal to their relationship and definitely effects how Yumi acts around Sei especially when they are in close quarters. It adds to the Yumi spice :D so to speak.

To go outside of the story for just a moment. I would suggest that though there doesn't seem to be any current yuri relationships in the story, I would say that Sei and her Grand Soeur had such a relationship after the Sei x Shiori episode and that Sei might also have be envolved with Youko at one time though that is more of a guess. :)

:) Just stirring the pot :) Mercury :D

[Shad da Von]

I agree that some people seem to read a bit too much into the whole lesbian thing, that is their perception or opinion and they're certianly entitled to that. Though I believe there is very little of that in the existing relationships, I think it adds to the story.
I think people can be blinded to the reality of things if they wish to find what they want. That is to say people see what they want if not careful. Perhaps that is the case with Marimite? Some people watch it expecting to see yuri so thats indeed what they see it to be. Thats my personal opinion.
To go outside of the story for just a moment. I would suggest that though there doesn't seem to be any current yuri relationships in the story, I would say that Sei and her Grand Soeur had such a relationship after the Sei x Shiori episode and that Sei might also have be envolved with Youko at one time though that is more of a guess. :)

:) Just stirring the pot :) Mercury :D
I personally doubt this. I think Sei would be more in a state of recovery from losing Shiori. Sei seemed to exist for only Shiori, after losing her she would need time to recover before she could love anything again. After being so focused on Shiori do you think she would start new relationships almost immediately after losing her? I guess there is always the possibility; however, this thought doesn't mesh with my understanding of Sei.

[MercuryKnight]

I personally doubt this. I think Sei would be more in a state of recovery from losing Shiori. Sei seemed to exist for only Shiori, after losing her she would need time to recover before she could love anything again. After being so focused on Shiori do you think she would start new relationships almost immediately after losing her? I guess there is always the possibility; however, this thought doesn't mesh with my understanding of Sei.
I believe the ending of the Sei x Shiori episode supports my statement. But once again it is open to interpretation of the watcher. You could be quite correct as well. The thing I note about Sei is that she seems to be a very carefree and happy person, someone who has loved, lost and possibly learned to love again. How she got to the point she's at I can only guess. Since I can't read the stories and I have only read a bit of the manga, I have only the vague references from the shows to go by. Hopefully there will be something in the second season that will give us more clues to her past. I look forward to it. :)

P.S. Nice to see a fellow Canadian taking part in the discussion. :) Hopefully there are more Maria-sama fans among us. :D

[Rosa_Gigantea]

I've seen episodes 1-20 of BDB, and yes, the concept is very similar (young, pure, innocent and quite normal girl brought to the attention of the Greater Powers of the school - in fact, the Yuri Ml already did the comparison Marimite / BDB or Utena). The main difference is that BDB, being a work from Riyoko Ikdeda, is overly dramatical (IMO, and according to what i know of Ikeda-sensei works, meaning Versailles no bara). Marimite is way more tame and uneventful ^^

And the lesbian thing... Please, stop seeing lesbians at every corners. Apart maybe the Sei x Shiori episode, the relations in the serie are mainly sexless and more a question of mutual respect and strong friendship. Well, I think ^^.

I'm a girl who likes girls A LOT :D but I'm not that obsessed with pairing off anime girls with each other. I just think there's little more to Yoshino and Rei's relationship. Can't people be friends and lovers? Of course it's also possible that they may just be REALLY CLOSE friends ^_^

[aniforever]

I'm a girl who likes girls A LOT :D but I'm not that obsessed with pairing off anime girls with each other. I just think there's little more to Yoshino and Rei's relationship. Can't people be friends and lovers? Of course it's also possible that they may just be REALLY CLOSE friends ^_^

yea i think so too. though others might think differently since they are cousins. iono maybe they are just really really good friends but seriously i have yet to have any friends that i'm really close to that i don't like on a different level. oh well ja ne.

[Frog]

I'm a girl who likes girls A LOT :D but I'm not that obsessed with pairing off anime girls with each other. I just think there's little more to Yoshino and Rei's relationship. Can't people be friends and lovers? Of course it's also possible that they may just be REALLY CLOSE friends ^_^
I also think Yoshino and Rei's relationship is more or less different then any of the other girls relationships with there souers because of the fact that they've know each other for so long plus the fact that they are cousins. With those two though i think they tend to step out of the box more in terms of there "sisterly relationship" because each one has these deep rooted feelings because of there strong family bond which makes there relationship stronger then most of the other girls and there souers.

[MercuryKnight]

yea i think so too. though others might think differently since they are cousins. iono maybe they are just really really good friends but seriously i have yet to have any friends that i'm really close to that i don't like on a different level. oh well ja ne.
Friendship and love, where does one start and the other end and are the two mutually exclusive? I personally don't think they are. You can certainly love your friends, certainly I have friends that I love that are male, but I don't love them the same way I love my wife. So where is the line drawn. In the Rei/Yoshino relationship there is no doubt in my mind that they love each other very much. That is easy for anyone to see. How that love manifests itself is a totally different question? I don't think Yoshino's jealousy stems from a Yuri type relationship, but rather from the jealousy of someone who has had a certain persons attention all of her life and suddenly finds that attention seemingly focused somewhere else. I may be wrong, it's all how you read the evidence. Yoshinos admitting to Yumi that she's never had any real friends. The way she acted when the dates were first mentioned. These things are very open to interpretation, but my interpretation is that she is jealous of her friendship. :D

I think of Rei as as being almost motherly to Yoshino, Loving her and protecting her from the world and Yoshino as being the only child who suddenly sees her mom with a new baby. :)

[aniforever]

Friendship and love, where does one start and the other end and are the two mutually exclusive? I personally don't think they are. You can certainly love your friends, certainly I have friends that I love that are male, but I don't love them the same way I love my wife. So where is the line drawn. In the Rei/Yoshino relationship there is no doubt in my mind that they love each other very much. That is easy for anyone to see. How that love manifests itself is a totally different question? I don't think Yoshino's jealousy stems from a Yuri type relationship, but rather from the jealousy of someone who has had a certain persons attention all of her life and suddenly finds that attention seemingly focused somewhere else. I may be wrong, it's all how you read the evidence. Yoshinos admitting to Yumi that she's never had any real friends. The way she acted when the dates were first mentioned. These things are very open to interpretation, but my interpretation is that she is jealous of her friendship. :D

I think of Rei as as being almost motherly to Yoshino, Loving her and protecting her from the world and Yoshino as being the only child who suddenly sees her mom with a new baby. :)

seriously i have no idea where the line is drawn either. i mean there's a fine line between love and hate but with love and friendship who can tell the difference? i know that i certainly can not. since girls are naturally more passionate and loving toward other girls it's hard to tell. if it's said that what girls feel about other girls are just friendship then what category should tomoyo fall into. i mean it has always been assume that tomoyo loves sakura very much, more then just friends, but if your telling me that tomoyo only loves sakura because she's her best friend then i don't know what to say.

i believe that love does not always have to concern physical contact. though if so then isn't that consider being normal friends or being best friends. if best friend replace love then yuri or shoujo-ai does not exist. so no matter how close two girls are they are still consider friends until physical or intimate contact is present. if two girls are shopping together are you able to tell if they are lovers or friends? i don't know. actually i don't even know what the heck i am saying. so if you don't understand what i'm saying then don't worrie it's not you it's me.

i am not completely sure about yoshino's feelings toward rei since the part where she went to spy on rei on her date after seeing what happen she just decided to forget about it and went shopping. though for rei it's different. it's really hard to believe that someone about the same age as the other can have motherly feeling for that person.

loving someone and wanting to protect them...iono maybe my reaction is so strong because i feel like rei is somewhat like me but... hehe i am putting too much thought into this. no matter what you say or do it's still just an anime. still i need something to occupy me until season two comes out or else i'll eventually forget about marmite and i don't want that to happen.

[MercuryKnight]

i believe that love does not always have to concern physical contact. though if so then isn't that consider being normal friends or being best friends. if best friend replace love then yuri or shoujo-ai does not exist. so no matter how close two girls are they are still consider friends until physical or intimate contact is present. if two girls are shopping together are you able to tell if they are lovers or friends? i don't know. actually i don't even know what they heck i am saying. so if you don't understand what i'm saying then don't worrie it's not you it's me.

I think I understand what you're saying. I think that if you have a best friend, in all likelyhood you probably love that person, but you don't nessesarily have a physical relationship with that person, but you could. I do have a best friend, she and I have been best friends since we were both 15 and I certainly love her very much. I do feel I know something about best friends. :)
Also I think you can have other friends and love them too, but physical love probably doesn't come into it. If I see two girls out shopping together, no I can tell if they are just friends, whether the love each other, and I definitely won't be able to tell if the have a physical relationship and anything that I said to the contrary would be purely conjecture on my part.

I am not completely sure about yoshino's feelings toward rei since the part where she went to spy on rei on her date after seeing what happen she just decided to forget about it and went shopping. though for rei it's different. it's really hard to believe that someone about the same age as the other can have motherly feeling for that person.

Now how do I apply this to Yoshino and Rei. Your right, I too found the fact that Yoshino just up and went shopping after being so concerned a little odd. It's a tough one, how to explain it?
I think quite possible seeing Rei with on the date may have been so painful for her that she couldn't watch any longer, but I doubt it. More likely she just realized how foolish she was being and moved on.
Now about Rei being motherly. Personally I think it's obvious, first of all age has nothing to do with it. I've seen a 10 year old mother a bird or small animal that's sick. Rei is what 16 or 17 she is certainly old enough to feel those feelings. But I think in the 4th and 5th episodes there are many signs of that. Her carrying Yoshino's bag, wanting to go to the doctor's with her, and seeing her home safely at night. I personally see those as motherly things. Once again these things are open to the interpretation of the watcher and maybe I see them differently then others because I'm a parent and have been for 20 years. :D


loving someone and wanting to protect them...iono maybe my reaction is so strong because i feel like rei is somewhat like me but... hehe i am putting too much thought into this. no matter what you say or do it's still just an anime. still i need something to occupy me until season two comes out or else i'll eventually forget about marmite and i don't want that to happen.
Well Rei may very well be like you, since I don't know you I personally can't say. I think when people watch shows they like to see a character in the show as being like them. They identify with that character. Personally I think that makes the show more interesting for them. Unfortunately for me there is no one in the show that I can say is like me. Though I do have a tendency to tease people like Sei teases Yumi and I like women so we have that in common as well (oops just joking :D).
Maybe I'm putting to much thought into this as well, but I'm having fun, so I will continue.
And lastly I Love this show and I can't wait for the second season. I won't forget about marmite. :)

[Göönk]

It's a girls feeling?
HUH
I WON'T TRY TO UNDERSTAND THEN
;)

[atua]

This is slightly OT, but I think the English language tends to make it more difficult than it needs to when talking about love. The word is so vague that people end up misunderstanding each other because they were talking about different aspects of love. I think the Greek terms eros, philia, storge & agape describe "love" with a lot more clarity.

[Shad da Von]

This is slightly OT, but I think the English language tends to make it more difficult than it needs to when talking about love. The word is so vague that people end up misunderstanding each other because they were talking about different aspects of love. I think the Greek terms eros, philia, storge & agape describe "love" with a lot more clarity.
Very true. English probably isn't the language to be having this conversation about love in. One says love and "people end up misunderstanding" what was ment. Unfortunately I have yet to learn Greek, though it is fairly high on the lanuages I plan to learn list.

[himalayan]

here's my two cents...

yoshino/rei


- possible shoujo ai. bestfriends tend to be possesive true. but then again.. how many bestfriends do you see getting all jealous and fiery? it maybe a fact that yoshino has been sick all her life(?) but getting fired up with a single date? not likely. it's just a date.. a half-day date at that. surely yoshino didnt expect the fan what was the girl's name again? - to become rei's bestfriend within at least 5 hours?

sachiko/yumi

- aherm... this one is a bit too early to say. having only seen the anime my views are limited. but from what i see and what i've mentioned on some other debate, yumi is NOT that innocent. she knows what a lesbian is. check the valentine's ep where she was thinking something about rosa doggie er.. canina.


sei/shiori


- this one is BLATANT shoujo ai. if you cant see it.. then you have to get a density check right this instant. ask every straight person you know to watch the ep. and they'll give you the same answer: 'ick they're lesbians!' or something else that attains to homosexuality.

sei/canina


- unrequited. but shoujo ai love nonetheless.

[Ialdaboth]

What about Sei x Shimako ?

We have shoujo-ai on Shimako side, but I don't think Sei sentiments for Shimako are as strong, even if she care deeply for her little sister.

I don't know about you, but the relationship between these two is the one I found the most mysterious during the most part of the show...^^

[himalayan]

^_^ er..truth be told. i honestly dont like shimako. :) so er... everything that has to do with shimako is a no-no or.. i dont do much analysis.

[Göönk]

hey
i've just watched ep2 of "Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai".
Girls just take shower - naked as far as I can see :) - together even though they don't even know their name. huh? So how is it called then?
Hum. I think Japanese is hard to understand. Anime is not reality, I know.
Anime is MUCH BETTER !!

[kj1980]

hey
i've just watched ep2 of "Kono Minikuku mo Utsukushii Sekai".
Girls just take shower - naked as far as I can see :) - together even though they don't even know their name. huh? So how is it called then?
Hum. I think Japanese is hard to understand. Anime is not reality, I know.
Anime is MUCH BETTER !!

Same thing as men going to the men's only bath houses (sentou) and onsen hot springs with other men.

[Shad da Von]

yoshino/rei


- possible shoujo ai. bestfriends tend to be possesive true. but then again.. how many bestfriends do you see getting all jealous and fiery? it maybe a fact that yoshino has been sick all her life(?) but getting fired up with a single date? not likely. it's just a date.. a half-day date at that. surely yoshino didnt expect the fan what was the girl's name again? - to become rei's bestfriend within at least 5 hours?
I think it might just be part of Yoshino's character to overreact to things.
sachiko/yumi

- aherm... this one is a bit too early to say. having only seen the anime my views are limited. but from what i see and what i've mentioned on some other debate, yumi is NOT that innocent. she knows what a lesbian is. check the valentine's ep where she was thinking something about rosa doggie er.. canina.
I would agree that Yumi probably knows what a lesbian is -- she is in highschool and doesn't appear to be completely incompetent. However, just because someone knows what a lesbian is doesn't make them one automatically; nor is it possible to say much from a single random thought.

:topicoff: Now a couple random quotes I feel like saying for some reason.
Perhaps if we knew more of the past, we should not think we knew so much; if we understood it better, we might cease to hope to understand it.
Bunk
L'Histoire est le produit le plus dangereux que la chimie de l'intellect ait élaboré.... Il fait rêver, il enivre les peuples, leur engendre de faux souvenirs, exagère leurs réflexes, entretient leurs vieilles plaies, les conduit au délire des grandeurs ou à celui de la persécution, et rend les nations amères, superbes, insupportables, et vaines.

[atua]

What about Sei x Shimako ?

We have shoujo-ai on Shimako side, but I don't think Sei sentiments for Shimako are as strong, even if she care deeply for her little sister.

I don't know about you, but the relationship between these two is the one I found the most mysterious during the most part of the show...^^
Up until ep 13, I was sure that they had an intimate, but purely platonic relationship. They're two people who understood and care about one another deeply despite their low key public appearances. They're also my favourite soeur pairing (with Rei/Yoshino a close second).

*However*, my views have changed since ep 13, mainly due to the Shimako/Shizuka date. One side effect of the date is that Shimako is now a lot more aware of her own feelings for Sei. By equating her feelings with Shizuka's, it's strongly implied that they share the same feelings towards Sei. They're both happy to know and love Sei, but they both also know that their love is an unrequited one. It was a lovely, poignant scene.


^_^ er..truth be told. i honestly dont like shimako. :)
Hehe, that's okay because I don't particularly like Sachiko's character. :) She's far too concerned about her public appearance, both physical and behavioural, and her "respectability" for me to like her wholeheartedly. Sachiko seems all too willing to play hard and fast with ethics if that's what it takes to look good. For example, when she flat out lied to the Yamayurikai about knowing Yumi.

Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to be a person who's self-aware enough to work through some of her more negative appearance-oriented traits. On top of that, she isn't a very perceptive person, and often has trouble relating to other people. Her sense of humour could use some work too. So while she's a very beautiful character (appearance wise), I often have doubts as to her character and motives...

That said, I appreciate the fact that Sachiko would be under tremendous family pressure to perform as the only child of a rich family, and that as a result she's had a lonely and sometimes socially awkward life to date. Meeting Youko and then Yumi have really been the best things to have happened to her life.

[MercuryKnight]

:topicoff: The fact that these characters are so different from each other really makes it interesting. I personally don't dislike any of the characters, simply because if the characters weren't they are the story won't be the same. Though on the other side of it there certainly a couple of characters if met in real life would definitely rub me the wrong way, Shimako and Sachiko would definitely fit that. :topicoff:

As for Shimako and Sei, that is an odd relationship. Certainly hard to figure. I'm going to have to pay more attention to it as I rewatch the shows again.

[Göönk]

yeah it's off topic but so true.

[Rosa_Gigantea]

here's my two cents...

yoshino/rei


- possible shoujo ai. bestfriends tend to be possesive true. but then again.. how many bestfriends do you see getting all jealous and fiery? it maybe a fact that yoshino has been sick all her life(?) but getting fired up with a single date? not likely. it's just a date.. a half-day date at that. surely yoshino didnt expect the fan what was the girl's name again? - to become rei's bestfriend within at least 5 hours?

sachiko/yumi

- aherm... this one is a bit too early to say. having only seen the anime my views are limited. but from what i see and what i've mentioned on some other debate, yumi is NOT that innocent. she knows what a lesbian is. check the valentine's ep where she was thinking something about rosa doggie er.. canina.


sei/shiori


- this one is BLATANT shoujo ai. if you cant see it.. then you have to get a density check right this instant. ask every straight person you know to watch the ep. and they'll give you the same answer: 'ick they're lesbians!' or something else that attains to homosexuality.

sei/canina


- unrequited. but shoujo ai love nonetheless.

Agree completely ^_^
Also in the manga and novel, you can tell Yumi isn't that dense about same sex issues.
btw has anyone else seen the valentine day special from the manga? Yumi literally spends all day making the perfect chocolate for Sachiko to the point she neglects making any for her father so her brother has to go out in the middle of the night to get their dad something ^^; Sorry but there's just a little more to Yumi's obsession with Sachiko :P

[MercuryKnight]

Agree completely ^_^
Also in the manga and novel, you can tell Yumi isn't that dense about same sex issues.
btw has anyone else seen the valentine day special from the manga? Yumi literally spends all day making the perfect chocolate for Sachiko to the point she neglects making any for her father so her brother has to go out in the middle of the night to get their dad something ^^; Sorry but there's just a little more to Yumi's obsession with Sachiko :P
Did see the special, very funny. Obsession is correct, but I don't think it's sexual, more like she's trying to live up to the perfection she believes is Sachiko, puts the pressure on herself. :)

[Rosa_Gigantea]

Did see the special, very funny. Obsession is correct, but I don't think it's sexual, more like she's trying to live up to the perfection she believes is Sachiko, puts the pressure on herself. :)

just curious if your male friend went through all that trouble to make you a chocolate for valentine would you still be singing the same tune? :P

I bet if the entire cast of maria mite were guys and they did the exact same thing everyone would label them as gay.

[himalayan]

i was thinking of letting this pass but er... im bored so... again my two cents ^^

Did see the special, very funny. Obsession is correct, but I don't think it's sexual, more like she's trying to live up to the perfection she believes is Sachiko, puts the pressure on herself.

dude not all shoujo ai couples feel sexually atrracted with each other at the early stages of their relationship. of course yumi's feeling isnt (yet) sexual. anyone with two eyes and a nose can see that. you also have to take note that we're talking about girl/girl 'teenage' relationship here. i dont know about you but most of my girl crushes start out with pure admiration until it reaches to the yes, sex part. but that comes late. that's why it's called 'growing up' and yumi is currently experiencing that.

when i said yumi is aware what a lesbian is i wasnt suggesting she was one. i was merely implying that she _could_ be one. note that when sachiko said something about sei suga's book and yumi seemed all too happy and proud that she knows sei. i mean c'mon, let's not be hypocrites... most straight women with NO bisexual tendencies at all dont go 'yay! im so proud i have a lesbian friend'.. though they might be open minded.. yumi's reaction is a tad bit overboard specially with her age.

another observation i just want to say is that.. somehow the word 'lesbian' is not that acceptable in this forum. what's with the word anyways? is it too blunt? so we ought to use shoujo or yuri in that case huh? prrrt. grow up.



Hehe, that's okay because I don't particularly like Sachiko's character. :) She's far too concerned about her public appearance, both physical and behavioural, and her "respectability" for me to like her wholeheartedly. Sachiko seems all too willing to play hard and fast with ethics if that's what it takes to look good. For example, when she flat out lied to the Yamayurikai about knowing Yumi.

the last time i checked it wasnt because of her public appearance that she lied to the yamayurikai. it was because she didnt want the cinderella (?) role. that said, i dont think it's all about 'looking good', her reason might be selfish but to suggest that sachiko's prior concern is the way other people view her is downright invalid. :P

plus she did went out on a date with yumi. so it might suggest that sachiko doesnt care what her fans/other people would think of her going out and shopping on a mediocre mall.

[MercuryKnight]

just curious if your male friend went through all that trouble to make you a chocolate for valentine would you still be singing the same tune? :P

I bet if the entire cast of maria mite were guys and they did the exact same thing everyone would label them as gay.
All I can say to that is guys can't act that way because people stereo type them. It the presure of society. But if you don't think the same think happens behind the scenes then your sadly mistaken. As a teenager I personally would have gone to great lengths to do something for an older school mate I idolized so that they might notice me. Does that make me gay, I think not. But I read things the way I do and you read them your way. If everyone thought the same way this would be one damn boring conversation. :D

Unfortunately the only person who's ever made me candy out of love is my wife. I don't know quite honestly how I would react if a male did it. :)

dude not all shoujo ai couples feel sexually atrracted with each other at the early stages of their relationship. of course yumi's feeling isnt (yet) sexual. anyone with two eyes and a nose can see that. you also have to take note that we're talking about girl/girl 'teenage' relationship here. i dont know about you but most of my girl crushes start out with pure admiration until it reaches to the yes, sex part. but that comes late. that's why it's called 'growing up' and yumi is currently experiencing that
So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. I personally don't believe that for a minute. It is no more true for guys then girls. It is quite acceptable to become to admire or idolize someone and to ultimately have a relationship his that person which is non-sexual in nature. That's is all I'm saying and that is how I see Yumi's relationship with Sachiko. That's my opinion.
As far as Yumi's reaction being overboard. They do tend to over dramitize in Anime to make a point.

P.S. I really don't care to be refered to as 'dude', would you please refrain from it in the future. Thank you :)

[himalayan]

So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. I personally don't believe that for a minute. It is no more true for guys then girls. It is quite acceptable to become to admire or idolize someone and to ultimately have a relationship his that person which is non-sexual in nature. That's is all I'm saying and that is how I see Yumi's relationship with Sachiko. That's my opinion.
As far as Yumi's reaction being overboard. They do tend to over dramitize in Anime to make a point.



er.. you're missing my point. :( and i dont get most of your idea as well. what am i saying is that 'not all' shoujo ai couples start out lusting for each other. get my drift?

so..

yumi not having sexual desire ( at the moment) for sachiko is NOT equal to yumi NOT being a yes... you guessed it, lesbian.

yumi completely aware of what a lesbian is, isNOT equal to yumi being a lesbian.


and regarding your line.. 'So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. ' -- now where did that came from? o_O it would be better if you re-read my post :) perhaps you'll understand it better now...

[atua]

when i said yumi is aware what a lesbian is i wasnt suggesting she was one. i was merely implying that she _could_ be one. note that when sachiko said something about sei suga's book and yumi seemed all too happy and proud that she knows sei. i mean c'mon, let's not be hypocrites... most straight women with NO bisexual tendencies at all dont go 'yay! im so proud i have a lesbian friend'.. though they might be open minded.. yumi's reaction is a tad bit overboard specially with her age.
That may be your personal experience, but I know straight people who acted the way Yumi did when they found out. For some people, meeting a bisexual or gay person is a real novelty. It's one thing to read about gay people from the media, but a very different thing to actually meet "one of those people" in real life. Some of them are very proud of their broad mindedness. They usually mean well, but their exuberant reactions can be a bit surprising (or just plain amusing) to others.


another observation i just want to say is that.. somehow the word 'lesbian' is not that acceptable in this forum. what's with the word anyways? is it too blunt? so we ought to use shoujo or yuri in that case huh? prrrt. grow up.I think that's a rather harsh and unfair sentiment. Shoujo-ai and yuri are just the most common terms used in the anime community. I find this to be the case from what I've seen here in animesuki and in other anime/manga based forums/mailing lists/irc channels. So I think it's just a matter of language and has nothing to do with the maturity (or lack thereof) of the readers and posters here.


the last time i checked it wasnt because of her public appearance that she lied to the yamayurikai. it was because she didnt want the cinderella (?) role. that said, i dont think it's all about 'looking good', her reason might be selfish but to suggest that sachiko's prior concern is the way other people view her is downright invalid. :PPerhaps the yamiyurikai example could've been better chosen, but I believe that "keeping up appearances" was certainly a factor in Sachiko and Yumi's encounter with the teacher. I don't mean to imply that Sachiko is a two dimensional character. Obviously she has other motivations that drive her as well. But I do think that keeping up appearances is a big part of her character.

Sachiko is very concerned with acting in the "right" and "proper" way. For example, her annoyance with Mifuyu for standing on the swing, and the first year girl for her sloppy uniform. As a member of a prestigious family, there would be a certain family expectation for Sachiko to uphold the family's reputation and to not damage the family name.

As Youko says, Sachiko does what is expected of her, even if she may not understand why. She'll do things (like lying) to cover up any perceived imperfections she may have (real or otherwise). Why do you think she took up all those extracurricular classes? I don't think it's because she sincerely wanted to learn all those things in the first place, or she would've put up more of a fight when Youko asked her to drop them all. So I think she did it to earn approval, either from her parents, teachers or from others (or maybe just to get her family off her case). I don't know about Japanese parents, but I know some Chinese parents are notorious for comparing their children's achievements to other children (as if that said anything about the quality of their parenting), and make very critical remarks if the children don't measure up.

While Mifuyu may think that Sachiko is a perfect, elegant perceptive lady, we the audience can see her flaws a lot better. Eg when we found out that she basically sleep walked through the morning she met Yumi.


plus she did went out on a date with yumi. so it might suggest that sachiko doesnt care what her fans/other people would think of her going out and shopping on a mediocre mall.Yes, but did she do this out of ingrained politeness and duty or from true affection? I don't think there's a clearcut answer, at least just from what's shown in the anime. Admittedly towards the end of the season, particularly in ep 12-13, she seems to unthaw around Yumi. Maybe I'll think differently next season, but until then I don't have a firm opinion as to Sachiko's motives towards Yumi.

If anyone disagrees with any of the above, maybe you can state your reasons for disagreeing as well (rather than just saying you disagree). :)

[Ialdaboth]

another observation i just want to say is that.. somehow the word 'lesbian' is not that acceptable in this forum. what's with the word anyways? is it too blunt? so we ought to use shoujo or yuri in that case huh? prrrt. grow up.

It seems to me you are a bit overreacting. :heh:

IMO, 'lesbian' is not the word that should qualify (yet ? ) Sachiko and Yumi's relationship (especially when one compare their relationship with SeiXShiori or ReiXYoshino), but I've only seen the first season (and I try to avoid letting doujinshis dictate my vision of the characters ^^ ).

Now, if Yumi begin to wander around the school kissing pretty girls...

I think I'm going to like the 2nd season even more...

[MercuryKnight]

er.. you're missing my point. :( and i dont get most of your idea as well. what am i saying is that 'not all' shoujo ai couples start out lusting for each other. get my drift?

so..

yumi not having sexual desire ( at the moment) for sachiko is NOT equal to yumi NOT being a yes... you guessed it, lesbian.

yumi completely aware of what a lesbian is, isNOT equal to yumi being a lesbian.


and regarding your line.. 'So what your saying is that if a girl starts out admiring an other girl that it's going to end up as a Lesbian relationship. ' -- now where did that came from? o_O it would be better if you re-read my post :) perhaps you'll understand it better now...
Humm... after carefully rereading your post, I admit I may have missinterpreted what you were saying, if so I apollogise. But to tell you the truth I'm still a little confused. Plus I'm not even sure you understood the point I was trying to make previous to that. So let me try to clarify my possition without making reference to yours.
First of all I think when the translators used the word 'fan' even though it may be the correct translation if falls short of Yumi's actual fellings. I think quite honestly at that point Yumi Idolizes Sachiko. Even when Sachiko is placed into a corner and lies about their relationship Yumi still idolizes her. Really kind of a poor place to start a relationship but it is a start.
As we get into the story we get to the point where Yumi realizes that Sachiko is not perfect and offers to take her rosary to help her out. When Sachiko refuses to do so it only makes Yumi Idolize her even more.
Yumi becomes Sachiko's seour and then becomes obsessed with trying to please the person she thinks Sachiko is. That brings us to the Valentines day thing in which we see Yumi doing her best to try to satisfy her idol.
Finally at the date Yumi who is definitely having kittens sees a side of Sachiko that she hasn't seen before. The sheltered girl who hasn't really experienced life. At the same time Sachiko is doing her best to understand Yumi's way of life. I think that this is the point when we finally see Yumi and Sachiko become true friends. Whether their relationship ever goes farther than that I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I realize that this is a very shortened view of what happens, but it for me sums up the progression of their relationship. Any way that is the way I see their relationship. As always my opinion is not the opinion of everyone. :D

[himalayan]

Ialdaboth: i am overreacting. :heh: and yea yumi kissing girls would definitely make season 2 worth the wait.

atua: i was thinking of replying to your post but then again i reckon we'll just go round and round and round. arguments tire me to the bones. my say would be... to each his er... her own

[atua]

i was thinking of replying to your post but then again i reckon we'll just go round and round and round. arguments tire me to the bones. my say would be... to each his er... her own

Well, I'm disappointed that you feel this way but as you say, to each his own.

[himalayan]

meh.. why are you dissapointed? hehe just curious.