View Full Version : "New" Low - Hacking
disguested
2003-11-18, 03:28
heh, you may or may not have heard of suteki-yume's interesting demise yet, but nevertheless the conversation in the main channel made me a bit disgusted. Basically the operators were commenting on how they used hacked bots for distros.
Has it come to this? Forget subbing licensed anime, hacking distros with pride, "stealing" a groups title out of malice, and even attack bots in idiotic irc wars of what I thought were long gone?
Now this raises the real question, if this is true, how many groups do this knowledgeably? Has this really become standard practice, have ethics become forgotten?
Whatever, you read the log and decide, I'm too tired and disgusted to think straight.
Here's the link, it's an uncut log (if you want the whole session I can post it, but someone needs to host it).
link: http://www.geocities.com/animeethics/11.08.03Suteki-Yume.mIRC-X.minus.some.drama.log
it's geocities, so if someone could host this in case it goes down it'd be appreciated
Crossposted on Anime News Network
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4330
Hacking others distros... 33vil...
Good thing I distro from my own comp with no FTP...
And no other way to get to my files than I sending them...
Hope not many groups use that hacking method thingy...
GET YA OWN DISTROZ! YA FRIGGIN THIEFS!
or something...
Has it come to this? Forget subbing licensed anime, hacking distros with pride, "stealing" a groups title out of malice, and even attack bots in idiotic irc wars of what I thought were long gone?
Now this raises the real question, if this is true, how many groups do this knowledgeably? Has this really become standard practice, have ethics become forgotten?
Hate to break this to you, but this is just another example in the history of fansubbing joining the warez scene. Groups do this knowledgably. This is sorta an old thing, and ethics are non existant. As for hacked distros, unfortunatly its becoming the case now of "who doesnt have a suspicious distro." There are lots of weird looking bots floating around.
Hacking others distros... 33vil...
Good thing I distro from my own comp with no FTP...
And no other way to get to my files than I sending them...
Hope not many groups use that hacking method thingy...
GET YA OWN DISTROZ! YA FRIGGIN THIEFS!
or something...
I know some groups do use hacked distros, and I have some guesses as to who uses them, but I'm not going to point fingers. My first experience with hacked "distro" was when some french fansub group used a compromise on my friend's computer to use her computer as a raw/distro dump.
Enragin_Angel
2003-11-18, 06:12
Yet another reason to give the fansubbing scene a bad name.
You're surprised by this?
Did you really think that everyone was just going to get along and play nice? Of course there will always be people who do things such as this. Then again, people who do these kinds of things get theirs in the end.
NenMaster
2003-11-18, 10:06
95% of all XDCC bots in the chans are hacked, borrowed or not they are hacked.
95% of all XDCC bots in the chans are hacked, borrowed or not they are hacked.
The problem here is the distinction between everything. On the illegal side: "Hijacked" being that the person took over a computer that he has access to somewhere. "Hacked" being they installed a rootkit by rooting it. On the legal side: "Legal" being that the person knowingly installed iroffer on their own personal computer.
The distinction between hijacked and legal is sometimes a very hard distinction.
I'm sure they also pay for all that bandwith they use. I think not. Most likely it's stolen from university, but if they didn't have all this stolen bandwith then it would take us years to get stuff. The whole fansub scene is going to hell in a handbasket.
DAMN YOU LEECHER KONEKO!
microlith
2003-11-18, 13:35
Like no one saw my post in the torrent submissions forum where I took a shit on them (suteki-yume.)
There are HORDES of groups like them that act like they're the greatest thing ever and yet their channels are full of rooted *nix boxes and trojanned windows machines serving up shit on IRC.
Most notably on Aniverse, primarily cause the IRCOPs on the network are fucking hypocritical in their motd and say "we won't allow copyrighted material to be traded here" but turn a blind eye to the trading of licensed anime even though it falls under the same clause.
Of course, they don't want to hear it.
Like no one saw my post in the torrent submissions forum where I took a shit on them (suteki-yume.)
There are HORDES of groups like them that act like they're the greatest thing ever and yet their channels are full of rooted *nix boxes and trojanned windows machines serving up shit on IRC.
Most notably on Aniverse, primarily cause the IRCOPs on the network are fucking hypocritical in their motd and say "we won't allow copyrighted material to be traded here" but turn a blind eye to the trading of licensed anime even though it falls under the same clause.
Of course, they don't want to hear it.
Amen Microlith. As usual you weaved an inciteful post of hate for those god damn licensed downloading fucks.
And the whole clause of:
"we won't allow copyrighted material to be traded here"
is bullshit to begin with. Anime is copyrighten. So there fore no one should use aniverse to trade anime.
You're surprised by this?
Did you really think that everyone was just going to get along and play nice? Of course there will always be people who do things such as this. Then again, people who do these kinds of things get theirs in the end.
Heh, I'm guessing he was, but I was surprised too, I can tell you for a fact that we don't do this at least to our knowledge(and yes we've had "offers" from "teams" to "help" us out >_<). There are such things as legal bots (people with excess bandwidth from their server, isp owners, uni kids etc.)
I'm sure they also pay for all that bandwith they use. I think not. Most likely it's stolen from university, but if they didn't have all this stolen bandwith then it would take us years to get stuff. The whole fansub scene is going to hell in a handbasket.
Now edu leeching, within reason, I don't have a problem with for a few reasons. One, you're entitled to edu internet usage as a student, and the university can revoke certain access if they wish. Universities rent lines, meaning amount of bandwidth isn't really as much of a problem as speed, which results in sick amounts of bandwidth available. I do have a problem with say, hacking an .edu server to serve your stuff, but just setting up a pc and hooking it up to the edu connection I don't.
ravishingrono
2003-11-18, 19:16
Hijacked legit blah blah blah.
As I long as I leech the ep I don't give a damn.
gg kind sirs. :fingers:
NinjaServ
2003-11-18, 21:15
heh, sounds like what the RIAA is doing to p2p services, except they have to hire ppl to do it...:D
Hijacked legit blah blah blah.
As I long as I leech the ep I don't give a damn.
gg kind sirs. :fingers:
And this is why you are considered a lower life form, aka leech.
ravishingrono
2003-11-19, 00:56
A lower life form! Sweet! :cool:
Hijacked legit blah blah blah.
As I long as I leech the ep I don't give a damn.
gg kind sirs. :fingers:
In addition to what zalas said....
Couple emails to a couple people or maybe an excessively large spike in bw and they will all go bye bye. Be happy that most people turn a blind eye to this practice. Better to use legit methods with people controlling them. I can assure you this practice wont last forever. Downloading is not meant to be a luxury. Oh, or they could just stop distro'ing... its not like they fansub for you...
holyangel
2003-11-19, 14:15
o.0 then kindly explain to me why the group has only 1 bot which is paid at $80 per 2 months out of my own pocket? And also why are we moving that bot to a co-located server? We also have a 2nd bot which is hosted kindly by a EDU helper.
And btw shia-chan and intermezzo is not part of our crew in the first place, they just happened to came into power during the internal war if u read the front which happened to be "missing".
And also btw we aren't chatting how we used hacked bots for distro, we were fighting over wtf distro really is, so stop framing us. The lower section about the attack bots weren't by the channel ops also, they were by some curious fans like u who were curious about what bots are all about.
And yes, almost all XDCC Bots are actually hacked bots if u really want to know what they are. XDCC Bots can't be purchased from ISP or hosting company unless u happen to know a friend in a hosting company which might not work out also.
Thus the only common way you can get an XDCC Bot is to either get edu people to join your distro and install iroffer on his computer and thus setup a XDCC Bot, however most edu won't do that as they don't wanna get their lines cancelled and iroffer itself is regared as a virus by virus scanners like norton.
For more info on what XDCC Bots really are, read here.
http://www.thebluenowhere.org/IRC/xdcc.html
There is actually another more detailed guide as to what they really are, but the site was hacked and infested with a virus thus I will not post the link here.
If you are still very interested to know more and how to see if your computer is rooted and how rooters play with your computer, read the edu log here.
http://staff.washington.edu/dittrich/misc/ddos/unisog-xdcc.txt
And personally I'm studying how to unroot computers which are rooted as from what I know, they hide the folder in your system32 section and change your window settings to make that folder hidden from even the admin account, and thus it's impossible to access without mounting it.
Though the conclusion from all that I know is that, anime groups or ware groups will resort to XDCC Bots even if it means hacking to get them as firstly XDCC Bots are easy to use and download from and you can access the server remotely and edit the bot. Also, to pay for legal xdcc bots would cost a bomb over time and thus the normal reaction of a human would be, it's free. And without XDCC bots, I really doubt we can get animes like today... we might very well still be like the 1990 where Anime Fansubbing is really cool and rare, and getting to see anime is really a wonder.
Ftp distro or dump you see fansub groups use... most are also hacked. They are actually servers which can't use the exec command from the ftp and thus are unable
to install iroffer, and so can only be used as a dump lolz.
Hope I answered your question on XDCC Bots, I'll be glad to share more that I know and what I learned if you wish to know more.
(Offtopic but posted here for everyones info)
And yes, almost all XDCC Bots are actually hacked bots if u really want to know what they are. XDCC Bots can't be purchased from ISP or hosting company unless u happen to know a friend in a hosting company which might not work out also.
Thus the only common way you can get an XDCC Bot is to either get edu people to join your distro and install iroffer on his computer and thus setup a XDCC Bot, however most edu won't do that as they don't wanna get their lines cancelled and iroffer itself is regared as a virus by virus scanners like norton.
You can get a bot on a shell if you want. Or buy some hosting with an enormous amount of transfer. Also, Norton does NOT detect iroffer. Norton cannot detect the majority of rootkits. In my experience Trendmicro is the only scanner which detects iroffer rootkits via web scan. (I have not tried f-secure, kav, panda, sophos.)
And personally I'm studying how to unroot computers which are rooted as from what I know, they hide the folder in your system32 section and change your window settings to make that folder hidden from even the admin account, and thus it's impossible to access without mounting it.
Only the really good rooters go this far. The majority of rooters are stupid and dont even bother hiding it. They can be found with a little bit of searching.
(Also clearly there when you port scan it).
And without XDCC bots, I really doubt we can get animes like today... we might very well still be like the 1990 where Anime Fansubbing is really cool and rare, and getting to see anime is really a wonder.
16k/s fserves worked fine back 3 years ago. There were no hacked bots, just people on dsl/cable and a few edu. Infact it was better back then because you could get older stuff. Bots typically do not have the space for full archives.
Ftp distro or dump you see fansub groups use... most are also hacked. They are actually servers which can't use the exec command from the ftp and thus are unable
to install iroffer, and so can only be used as a dump lolz.
The typical rootkit installs a) 1-2 iroffers b) 1x serv-u ftp. FTP's are rarely hacked compared with xdcc and usually offered by people on edu's because they are rarely much of an issue for the student if properly admined.
uh...
very strange things here...
iroffers and stuff I never heard about...
I just use my plain old fashion home computers with Windows+sysReset+some FTP program+Apache to distro/host/seed/fserv/xdcc...
no strange thingys needed...
NenMaster
2003-11-19, 20:24
u think they dont seed there bt releases with hacked boxes?
holyangel
2003-11-19, 22:57
I don't think you can use those hacked servers to seed bt releases unless you managed to script yourself a bt seeding kit, which I don't see many hackers have actually.. it's more like edu users helping to seed files.
You can get a bot on a shell if you want. Or buy some hosting with an enormous amount of transfer. Also, Norton does NOT detect iroffer. Norton cannot detect the majority of rootkits. In my experience Trendmicro is the only scanner which detects iroffer rootkits via web scan. (I have not tried f-secure, kav, panda, sophos.)
lolz shell don't need space to host files? We're talking about gigz of files on a single XDCC Bot and shell hosting company only offer like 10mb or maybe 20mb and they stated there very clearly no XDCC Bots allowed. So either you are buying a hacked shell unknowingly or your shell is provided by a friend of yours.
Only the really good rooters go this far. The majority of rooters are stupid and dont even bother hiding it. They can be found with a little bit of searching.
(Also clearly there when you port scan it).
o.0 majority of rooters are stupid.. hmm not really. They aren't even considered rooters in the first place just idiots who thinks they are smart after reading some how to root a server guide. I aren't sure if you can detect the program if you port scan your pc on what program is currently running on what port, haven't tried it out on myself yet hehe :heh:
But I'm pretty sure even if they root your pc, you won't even notice it at all.
16k/s fserves worked fine back 3 years ago. There were no hacked bots, just people on dsl/cable and a few edu. Infact it was better back then because you could get older stuff. Bots typically do not have the space for full archives.
It's the same still nowadays, there are still fserve in anime channels and also fservers only channels. You just have to look for those files yourself, but you normally won;t cause your first reaction is to look for files off the XDCC Bots as firstly it's faster and more easy and you are lazy. Also, anime channels love to ban the command @find for what reason I aren't sure, but this make it very impossible to find old files in a channel full of like say 500+ voice. And back then internet was still slow, no one knows what's speed, but too bad.. the world change and everything is about speed today.
The typical rootkit installs a) 1-2 iroffers b) 1x serv-u ftp. FTP's are rarely hacked compared with xdcc and usually offered by people on edu's because they are rarely much of an issue for the student if properly admined.
Don't mind me, but you speak like a nood learning how to root and getting the wrong concept. iroffer is installed on your pc, that's a must, followed by some .bat files and a serv-u.ini file and a custom version of serv-u which pratically doesn't even need installing, it just load up, exec the program to run, and you get yourself a ftp server and from there you setup a bot, simple as that. They also installed other files like FireDaemon which allows you to run program remotely I think and also a dameware program which also you to control a win nt computer remotely. Further on, a scanning kit is also setup on your computer and from there you get another bot which will help you scan ip range for possible hacking win nt computers.
And you don't hack ftp, firstly you don't even load the rooting kit up ftp in the first place. They actually access into your window admin a/c and load the files up from there, I will not go into details there. But they need the ftp to exec files though, meaning run and start programs by executing them. However some computers have programs which sort of disable the exec command on ftp, I dunno how nor why but once the server can't be exec, it's simply setup as a ftp server. And thus getting a ftp server and xdcc bots is the same way. And each xdcc bots comes with a ftp also btw.
I've heard about BT hacks, never have seen one though. It's basically a modified bt client in silent mode.
I aren't sure if you can detect the program if you port scan your pc on what program is currently running on what port, haven't tried it out on myself yet hehe :heh:
But I'm pretty sure even if they root your pc, you won't even notice it at all.
All but one rootkit ive seen responded to a port scan. (That rootkit was a piece of work :eyespin: ) As for the user not noticing, this is semi-true. There are signs of it, but most users arent very sharp. Some will say "Yea, my computer has been acting strange"; others will be clueless. It depends on the situation. Some people even go "My computer has a virus" or "My computer is slow" or "Something is eating up my hd space".
Also, anime channels love to ban the command @find for what reason I aren't sure...
@find is banned beacuse the majority of fserves do not support it, and in the old days, before they fixed it, that command would cause excessive load to fserves. Some scripts have optimized @find since then to make it run without excessive server load. Most places still agree that its spammy and since most do not support it, they don't allow it.
Don't mind me, but you speak like a nood learning how to root and getting the wrong concept.
Actually, it is part of my job to de-root machines. This is based on the information ive collected from the 20 or so machines from which i have removed various hacks.
They also installed other files like FireDaemon which allows you to run program remotely I think and also a dameware program which also you to control a win nt computer remotely. Further on, a scanning kit is also setup on your computer and from there you get another bot which will help you scan ip range for possible hacking win nt computers. ....
IIRC firedaemon allows a user to run multiple commands from 1 command line. (It's a legit program if you do a google search). Serving zombies rarely come with scanning kits. Usually zombies are one type or the other: serving or search/attack. What usually happens is that if one person who loads a kit onto a computer never seals the exploit he uses, other people will take the computer over for themselves. So one computer will have 3-4 bots on it before someone competent finally seals the hole (or the admins find it).
I think some mod or admin should remove this topic because well the log shows a lot of people IP's. If some movie/anime business sees this and looks at the log and see those IP's. They might sue them because thats what is happening the USA right now(RIAA), it will cost those people maybe thousands of dollars. Those people might sue animesuki because animesuki let this user show the log in this topic with their IP's. Even my IP shows in that log and I don't want to get sued.
holyangel
2003-11-20, 03:08
ah nice to see someone who de-root pc, maybe we could get down and have a chat on msn one day.
Anime-FAN
2003-11-20, 03:37
Hmm... I have to say this. First of all sorry for the bad grammar as I am not very good in english.
If you are all wondering... "what the hell with the hacked bots, can't they buy it legally", it cost USD 20 - 50 for one bot(Depend's on the package). Do you think other's fansubber chanel would buy it too? Since they're only doing the anime for free and get no profit from it. I won't point out which channel... but if u notice some of the channel has more than 4 bot's... from there u can make a conclusion ;)
The guy that post this thread... probaly want's a revenge...
Since we kicked him out of the channel... for trying to take down #Suteki-Yume
One last thing...
Can any of the admin edit digusted post? Remove the url in it...
holyangel
2003-11-20, 04:28
haha I paid $80 just to get a 6mbps 8gigz hdd package >_< seriously it's damn expensive, and suprisingly I'm still paying lolz
SierraSonic
2003-11-21, 02:27
Here's a screenshoot for you all to stare at
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/410168/AmFOUNDER.JPG
The conversation was set in #A-M channel @ irc.mircx.com
Here's the link, it's a screenshot (if you want the whole screenshot I can post it, but someone needs to host it).
it's villagephotos, so if someone could host this in case it goes down it'd be appreciated
Here's a screenshoot for you all to stare at
The conversation was set in #A-M channel @ irc.mircx.com
It looked to me like he was joking around. I mean... why would you announce that you were going to root some .edus...? That's like "I'm gonna go steal a BMW, brb."
It looked to me like he was joking around. I mean... why would you announce that you were going to root some .edus...? That's like "I'm gonna go steal a BMW, brb."
And we all remember the group with the famous topic "Looking for rooters"
Garylisk
2003-11-21, 06:03
Wow, sick stuff for non-profit fan activities... These people need to realize one important thing: This is not a contest, there's no need to underhandedly screw someone to get ahead. There is no "ahead". Give it a rest.
As for the fansub scene getting linked to the warez scene.. that's a scary thought, but it's true. Look at some of the otrrent sites out there... They're half anime, half warez, with porn ads. I used to be into all the warez BS, with the leet pplz, and nuking, and DoS attacks, and all that other immature crap... but now that I've grown up, I realize how stupid it all is. I really don't want fansubbing, something that I love, to be connected with the kind of community that the warez community is... but it's happening. I wish it could be stopped... but as long as people who just want something for free are out there, and they're anime fans as well as pirates... guess I'll just have to deal with it. :P
:dots:
Whatever.
I'm very sad to see this happening. :( When Animefactory had to choose a new IRC network, one network (I won't say which one) we decided not to go with because there were whole channels devoted to setting up botnets for distribution.
It's such an incredibly uncool thing to do that... well, I was just floored.
If you are scared of getting hacked, get AVG. I installed iroffer on my own computer and avg constantly detects it as a virus / trojan horse / whatever.
DarKBoArDeR
2003-11-21, 22:27
not to get into it much but "hacked" computers are used more than some of u realize. i personally dont have a problem with them as im sure many others feel the same. im not exactly proud to say it but the use of "hacked" computers as xdcc bot, bt seeds, http servers, and ftp servers has helped the fansubbing scene grow rapidly. many of u would have to wait much longer for the anime that you want without bots. don't get me wrong, i am in no way condoning hacking or anything of that form, but they do help alot
Admission of guilt, perhaps? I don't think the majority of leeches care where the bots come from, but this sort of thing will present a legal problem sooner or later. Even if hacked xdccs do work, I think groups should start looking into legal alternatives to hacking.
Wait. You're not condoning it, but in the same breath you're saying that it's helped the digisubbing scene and has helped a lot?
Um. Waiter? Reality check, please?
And just as a note, while chances are decent that nobody is going to come after you for fansubbing or distributing non-US-licensed anime (although, yes, it is illegal to distribute it), you can expect that people *will* come after you for hacking into boxes. Sure, they might not know the machine has been hacked. Sure, some people will just cuss and reinstall things to get a secure system again.
But remember that sysadmins are some of the most cussedly irritable and persistent people out there. They don't *like* people who mess with their machines, their networks, or just in general make more work for them. So at some point, some sysadmin with a bone to pick is going to follow you up on that breakin, contact the FBI, and come down on you like the proverbial ton of bricks.
Is it possible for people to not be found out? Yes. But adding to a crime that is generally overlooked (distributing fansubs) a second crime that generally gets a whole lot of people upset (compromising a computer system) seems like a *real* bad plan.
It really is Ironic even having this thread, Obviously people know the bots are not even legal, If you don't know me, then you know I do bots for anime-kraze etc blah blah. But look at it from this perspective all of those bots "you lowdown hackers what are you doing!" I gurantee you have downloaded from a hacked XDCC bot, its a means by which distribute files and its getting very bad. There are a lot worse situations then anime channels rooting bots. All of those underground channels you guys goto and download your favorite windows copy from BlahXDCC01 is autorooted and those channels have in the thousands. Its one of those things people complain, but if there were no XDCC bots, people would whine about BT being too slow all the time. IF there was no BT, people would whine about the slow Fservers and waiting in ques. Yes, they are hacked XDCC Bots, Yes they are edu's or other vuln. computers running the iroffer scripts. Just a note, a good 'hacker' knows how to root that bot and not set it to 75 sends and watch it go above 10,000 KB and laugh and gloat heh, just a note.
As for de-rooting, most users usually do find the files its not like its really hard once you look. Depends on the person who rooted them. But Admins are getting smarter now, finally! Back to my point, people download from XDCC bots all the time, its hard to sit here and watch people post images about all the bad things people do. BitTorrent is becoming illegal too, I know comcast has sent out notices regarding its use for illegal file sharing, the same with emule.
So you're saying hacking is bad, but it doesn't matter because everyone does it? Well, I don't know if "everyone" does do it, but even if they do, I still think fansubbing groups should start looking for alternatives to hacking in order to distro their stuff. I also agree with Anax that this sort of thing could have serious consequences somewhere along the line.
complich8
2003-11-22, 08:34
I was going to write an even longer than usual rant here, and piss a lot of people off. Then I realized that it was too huge. So I cleaned it up and posted it here (http://archlich.dyndns.org/hacking.html)
I'll piss even more people off with this somewhat smaller rant though.
The short summary goes back to the old "ethics" argument.
Ethics are sets of principles of right conduct.
The "complich8" code of ethics is "whatever is practical and doesn't hurt anybody." I like this code, and stick with it. It keeps me from hurting people, and keeps the things in my life functional. This is the one I live by and support. It's quite pragmatic and very workable. I drive 5 over, I don't drink and drive.
The "legal" code of ethics is "don't do anything illegal" -- and is a very loose code because of that. You can do a LOT within strictly legal ethics, such as taking advantage of people by selling to them while they're not completely informed. This is harmful but not illegal. On the other hand, you also aren't driving 5 over, and are probably doing 5 under.
However, "ethical fansubbing" doesn't fall into either of these. Ethical fansubbing says "it is wrong if it's illegal this way, but not wrong if its illegal this way." In the eyes of the law, the difference between "owned by a japanese company" and "owned by an american company" is nonexistent. It's still intellectual property, you're still infringing on it. One falls under international intellectual property laws, one falls under more strict national ones.
A japanese company can turn around and slap a cease and desist on my group right now, and can go sue for damages for lost income in less appealing dvd licensure deals, because we've quelled part of their market. It'd fly in court, too, probably. Just like an american company can take licensed subbers to court for the same. Sue for damages, no prob.
So why don't they? I don't know. Probably because it's a combination of a bad business practice suing your best promoters and your best customers, and an unfeasible business model (a company can't live off litigation alone, as we'll be seeing with SCO sooner or later). It's more profitable for bandai to release gits:sac dvds to the world than for them to come hunting for me and zerox as leaders of groups that subbed it. Hell, they could get about 8 grand in value from me right now, and I know zerox isn't worth much more. That's the profits from probably 800 copies of a single dvd in the set. I know I'm planning on buying those dvds... its bad business to attack me, when they can do what they did (namely say to us "hey, can you stop that?").
Anyway, "ethical fansubber" ethics are what happens when you take a real code of ethics and swing a big baseball bat at its knees. It doesn't stand up anymore. You can say you're "ethical" and you can be right, but not because you're following a coherent set of right actions, but because you're following an incoherent set of lies to yourself. It's going to get licensed most likely, so quit being selfish and wait for the dvds.
Rooting boxes is a practical thing. To you it's illegal so wrong. To me it's too risky, so not worth it. To the rooters out there, it's easy and not a big risk, so it's practical.
Anyway, I've probably pissed off enough people, and I'm sure that this'll lead this thread into yet another flame war, but it's ok, I have my asbestos underpants on.
[edit: forgot my point for a second there, had to put it in]
I wonder how many people would soil their drawers if I went through popular anime channels and reported edu xdcc bots (discovered by successfully starting a transfer and grabbing the reverse dns of the IPs by connection rather than user) to abuse@*.edu =P
NenMaster
2003-11-22, 13:29
id like to see groups seed there bt releases without no 10/20 mbit hacked machines.
if a company doesnt want there shit fansubed they can go after groups if they really want to stop all of it. it will scare some groups to stop etc, but then it will become underground and ALL the fans will use the bots even though they are hacked.
its like WHEN naruto gets lisenced, all the people who are against distrobution of lisenced anime will still download naruto. i dont see them waiting x months/year for the dvds, they cant even wait a week
and the people who consider fansubs legal are stupid
I gurantee you have downloaded from a hacked XDCC bot, its a means by which distribute files and its getting very bad. There are a lot worse situations then anime channels rooting bots.
There are some of us who try and avoid the hacked bots and use the "legit" bots. The problem is sometimes the distinction is hard to tell.
I wonder how many people would soil their drawers if I went through popular anime channels and reported edu xdcc bots (discovered by successfully starting a transfer and grabbing the reverse dns of the IPs by connection rather than user) to abuse@*.edu =P
Uh, in some cases, yes, you would be right the box is hacked. However, in some cases, you would be reporting a student who knowingly put iroffer on. Therefore not the greatest idea. There are some really obvious signs of hacked bots (all bots having the same nick/ident). And then there are groups that distro a client and dont tell you how to configure it...like a certain group did back in the old days.
Just "unzip and run".
Its just one of those things, yes its wrong, but I never make my bots do BT seeding, thats way to much bandwidth and I know if I was a college net admin I would be mad at th ebill next month. Thats not the point, yes its wrong, but most people rely on bots, if you want to report them, its fine with me, its not very hard to get an IP from anyone lol even if they BNC it. netstat etc.
Digital-Kitty
2003-11-22, 19:50
There are a lot worse situations then anime channels rooting bots.
Ahh, your right. Silly me. That does seem to make rooting for anime distro A-OK now that I think about it...
Its one of those things people complain, but if there were no XDCC bots, people would whine about BT being too slow all the time. IF there was no BT, people would whine about the slow Fservers and waiting in ques.
Ohhh god! That must be devastating listening to all those poor leechers whine like that. You really cant help but to feel sorry for them. Heck, why dont we just go steal some R2 DVDs to fansub and better encoding equipment to further improve the fansubs also?
I can see this going to way of the Anime Junkies vs the world topics
"Fansubbing is illegal"
"But fansubbing is good!"
"but it's illegal!'
"but its good!"
Eventually, mods come and the topic gets closed down.
Just a warning (not trying to hijack the thread), do not post until you've read everything (this wont happen until the thread gets to about 5-6 pages). It's good to hear your opinion and you have every right to express it, but when someone has said something you already have said, then its probably best to just observe their said argument and shoot from there.
Anyway, have fun
...Uh, in some cases, yes, you would be right the box is hacked. However, in some cases, you would be reporting a student who knowingly put iroffer on. Therefore not the greatest idea...
Heh, all is not lost in the event of a mistake. Every uni of the three I've been to has had some sort of policy that would normally forbid one from using such an inane amount of band. Surely they'd still be interested.
Actually, for the record, complich8, I don't like rooting because I know how it hurts people--I've worked as a sysadmin in the past. The "you could get caught" argument was meant to appeal to the folk who don't care. :)
The ethical fansubbing POV (I haven't read your big rant yet) is, I believe, really aimed at "So long as it doesn't hurt anybody enough for them to care." If either US or Japanese companies came out and said "We object to the entire practice of fansubbing", I would stop.
I think it's really a matter of having respect for the people who make a living at it. While we're tromping over their intellectual property rights, we set limits on ourselves (different limits for different people) and say "I will go no farther than this." My personal limit is that I won't touch anything licensed in the US or available in Japan with English subtitles, nor will I touch anything that hasn't been "added to" by someone's work (subtitled, basically. If I saw radio dramas that were in files along with translations, I might listen to them. Music, no way.) And I'll report anybody who I see breaking the law and making money at it to the authorities if I have the chance.
Anyway, I'll stop now. But as far as breaking into machines goes--just don't do it.
DarKBoArDeR
2003-11-24, 02:23
Wait. You're not condoning it, but in the same breath you're saying that it's helped the digisubbing scene and has helped a lot?
Anax if u cant understand what i meant ill explain it in simple facts. 1) hacking is bad dont do it. Thats y i said i do not condone it anymore 2) its a fact that it has helped fansub distribution alot. if u cant see that then ur blind.
I have rooted for a good amount of time and tho i was ignorant at first i have come to realize (by a close friend being cought) that its not going to pay off (i quit rooting). I run distro for #anbudom and i use legit bots instead of "hacked" ones. I personally dont feel like having the FBI on my ass. I'm sure this path is the best way to go, for both the channel, and the ppl involved.
2) its a fact that it has helped fansub distribution alot.
The majority of the original set of xdcc bots used by fansubbers were donated by students at edu's. Installed and admined by the students, and they had their own personalities. Rooted bots are a newer fad.... and just further pushed it toward a warez scene.
Anax if u cant understand what i meant ill explain it in simple facts. 1) hacking is bad dont do it. Thats y i said i do not condone it anymore 2) its a fact that it has helped fansub distribution alot. if u cant see that then ur blind.
Sure it has helped fansub distribution a lot, but has it actually helped the fansub community a lot? To me, it seems the number of idiots who think everything they need can be gotten for free has been on the rise. -_-;;
Digital-Kitty
2003-11-24, 11:57
God, I cant help but thinking that any group that consciously utilizes such methods is just as low as those R1 anime DVD ripping groups. They use the similar method as those spammers who go around hunting for openrelays to use if I read right. No consideration for personal property of others. I guess they figure that if a door isnt locked tight enough, its free for their use.
I dont see any reason why a group has to steal a high-speed connection if they dont need one. Its equivilant to a charity group stealing a car off the streets because they need a ride to work. You make do with what you have unless you can afford or someone can give you better. If someone cant handle that, then do they really need to be fansubbing? People might be shocked at how much money they have once they give up soft drinks for water, stop smoking, and stop going to the movies etc. Hell, that what Ive done to afford my import anime and translations in the past. $40 per to month isnt that bad if holyangel is serious.
I pray that no group that I ever have any affiliation with will ever resort to such method.
NenMaster
2003-11-24, 20:49
u guys think bandwith is so cheap, 10mbit server (web) cogent banwith is about 450-500 bucks, ded server with good spec pc.
tell me which group can afford that. none!
u guys think bandwith is so cheap, 10mbit server (web) cogent banwith is about 450-500 bucks, ded server with good spec pc.
tell me which group can afford that. none!
Why would a group need a dedicated server? And I think 450-500 a month is a bit on the rip off steep price side.
Racknine has a 50gb/month limit + 2.5gb storage limit on its highest deal, and it's only $30 a month. And racknine is plenty fast, it maxes out around 800kB/s.
complich8
2003-11-25, 03:59
50gb/month limit + 2.5gb storage limit on its highest deal, and it's only $30 a month
let's see.....
50 gb/month ....
how many of those do I need to meet my 1 TB/week needs?
whoops, 80.
50 gb/month might be enough for your needs, if you've got a small following, but when you hit a certain point (like any time you have more than 285 people downloading your single 175 meg release once a month) you're over that. Do 4 eps/month (one weekly series you're keeping up with) and have 500 people who you're feeding? once again, that's 8 of those servers. 2 per release completely consumed.
The best wholesale bandwidth deals I've seen are rackshack's. 10 megabits dedicated is about 3 TB/month. 3 TB for 500 bucks isn't too bad. Their dedicated 100 mbit servers are a bit better though, 700 gigs data transfer for $100/month. 500 gets you 3.5 TB of transfer, and more machines to do stuff with (also more disk space, if I remember right the standard rackshack cheapo package has a 60 gig hdd), but you run the risk of their rather steep overage charges if you don't watch your bandwidth pretty closely. That, and its still $500/month. I know I can't foot even a fifth of that bill without drastically altering my lifestyle (like ... no longer being a student).
Just on the fansubs traffic (getting raws to people, getting release candidates to people, getting scripts to people) and distro (getting releases to distro people), my group uses a good 15-20 gigs/day of bandwidth, we eat almost a whole rackshack worth in bandwidth behind the scenes alone, and that's just 30 or so active people on a kinda large number of series.
Yeah, if we had ... I don't know, 3, 4 more of those, we could probably have what people would call a "good" distro.
On the other hand, if you are smaller, slower, and on less projects, 30 bucks a month for 50 gigs isn't bad at all. Why, that's an average of 20K/sec across the whole month, I know a lot of people who pay more for their cable modems than that and have slower upload!
NenMaster
2003-11-25, 11:23
i meant that the servers are from webhosts
10mbit line = to 100gb aday so if u want to run a bot on that it will be enough but 10mbit isnt alot, i think u will need 5-10 of them to fully get ure releases out
holyangel
2003-11-25, 12:58
Digital-Kitty, I already own the freaking host $80 already for 2 months payment, and u still think my bot are illegal? wtf is this....
P.S, I just bought another new bot hehe..
Digital-Kitty
2003-11-25, 21:43
Digital-Kitty, I already own the freaking host $80 already for 2 months payment, and u still think my bot are illegal? wtf is this....
wtf indeed, I havnt mentioned you or your group except to quote the price you mentioned you crazy little monkey you >;) Actually, I havnt accused anyone yet, but I do have my suspicions about a couple of ya who openly admitted to it...
most of the hacked stuff are so elementary, if u r kind enuf, you can go in and patch it for them or leave them a note about it.
i've told "rooters" that its ass fscking colony for them if they get caught, but i've seen arguements saying that they are not from teh US and make themselves feel better about it.
if you know its rooted and u feel wrong about it, dont use it.
if you really feel wrong about it, report it.
using the excuse of distroing anime cuz you dont have enuf legit bots to hack isnt not good enough excuse.
u guys think bandwith is so cheap, 10mbit server (web) cogent banwith is about 450-500 bucks, ded server with good spec pc.
tell me which group can afford that. none!
Not true.
Anyway I think if your lame enough not to notice that u're missing 20gigs and your bandwidth is used even you have no dl/ul then I think it's a wake up call :heh:
Ketsu-Kun
2003-12-22, 09:44
id like to see groups seed there bt releases without no 10/20 mbit hacked machines.
if a company doesnt want there shit fansubed they can go after groups if they really want to stop all of it. it will scare some groups to stop etc, but then it will become underground and ALL the fans will use the bots even though they are hacked.
its like WHEN naruto gets lisenced, all the people who are against distrobution of lisenced anime will still download naruto. i dont see them waiting x months/year for the dvds, they cant even wait a week
and the people who consider fansubs legal are stupid
AnimeRev is one such group that seeds their releases without hacked machines. How? I do it personally from the Nandayo server, I do it for lots of groups including Lunar, AREV and more. Not all things are hacked or rooted as some people seem to think.
Some people still pay for stuff to serve, Nandayo pay for a server on a 100MBIT port burstable to 1GBIT. So stop assuming ALL things are hacked or rooted.
NenMaster, 10MBIT server on a P4 2.4GHZ serve from TMS (High Quality Datacenter Which Uses HE.NET, Not Cogent Which Is The Worst BW Known To Man) is only $399 a month. I can get cheaper as well if I look around, it's not hard.
DekaMaster
2003-12-22, 12:10
AnimeRev is one such group that seeds their releases without hacked machines. How? I do it personally from the Nandayo server, I do it for lots of groups including Lunar, AREV and more. Not all things are hacked or rooted as some people seem to think.
Some people still pay for stuff to serve, Nandayo pay for a server on a 100MBIT port burstable to 1GBIT. So stop assuming ALL things are hacked or rooted.
NenMaster, 10MBIT server on a P4 2.4GHZ serve from TMS (High Quality Datacenter Which Uses HE.NET, Not Cogent Which Is The Worst BW Known To Man) is only $399 a month. I can get cheaper as well if I look around, it's not hard.
Please, don't make animerev out to be some wonder group. And it's not like arev needs any super fast distro means. You sub only things other groups are doing,and have been doing for sometime now. When you do something original that sets you apart from others maybe you will need faster means of distrobution.
NenMaster
2003-12-23, 12:39
AnimeRev is one such group that seeds their releases without hacked machines. How? I do it personally from the Nandayo server, I do it for lots of groups including Lunar, AREV and more. Not all things are hacked or rooted as some people seem to think.
Some people still pay for stuff to serve, Nandayo pay for a server on a 100MBIT port burstable to 1GBIT. So stop assuming ALL things are hacked or rooted.
NenMaster, 10MBIT server on a P4 2.4GHZ serve from TMS (High Quality Datacenter Which Uses HE.NET, Not Cogent Which Is The Worst BW Known To Man) is only $399 a month. I can get cheaper as well if I look around, it's not hard.
ok 400 bucks, i aint looked at hosting prices in a few months
100mbit costs the average person 4k amonth, he must be getting a deal or someone is providing it to him for free.
if he pays it out of his pocket and doesnt get donations then, hmm, then [insert cuss words] :P
Ever heard of a data center?
Most people don't have high-connection connections running into their living room, they rent a server in a facility with a high-speed connection.
Ketsu-Kun
2003-12-23, 17:50
Ev1Servers (Formally Rackshack)
CPU - Intel Dual Xeon 2.0
RAM - 1GB
HDD - 3x 73GB (R5)
Transfer Per Month - 1.2TB
Port - 100MBIT
cPanel /w Redhat
Setup Fee - $1
Monthly Fee - $359
Server Matrix (Part Of The Planet)
CPU - 1.7 GHz Celeron
RAM - 512MB RAM
HDD - 80GB
Transfer Per Month - 1TB
Port - 100MBIT
Redhat/FreeBSD
- $49 Setup / $79 Month
- $99 Setup / $59 Month
FDC
- MIDTOWER or rack up to 4U
- BGP4 Multihomed connectivity to
- XO internet backbone
- YIPES internet backbone
- COGENT internet backbone
- 100Mbit port
- 10Mbit unmetered connection
- Extra traffic FREE !!!
- FREE IPs (arin rules)
- FREE reboots
- UN-METERED bandwidth
- no overage charges
- FREE SETUP
- FREE CPANEL control panel
Price : $149/month/per server
I know there are lots of other places like Equinix that do things like this, can't be assed to look for now. Hell even Nocster give you 1TB a month on a 100MBIT port for $100 a month on a fairly respectable server (Above average spec)
Ketsu-Kun
2003-12-23, 17:52
That Ev1Servers deal is looking pretty nice actually, so's the SM one.
I might get me another server to backup Nandayo. :D
Please, don't make animerev out to be some wonder group. And it's not like arev needs any super fast distro means. You sub only things other groups are doing,and have been doing for sometime now. When you do something original that sets you apart from others maybe you will need faster means of distrobution.
I'm not, they were an example. How about Nandayo then? We release files alot larger then any .AVI file and we distro them solely from our place, 95% of people I have spoken to have reached their max speed at that time. Lunar for instance on a KGNE release day, sees my server spike to a few thousand KBPS.
ElvenPath
2003-12-23, 17:57
ALL HAIL JAPPI!!!
Is this turning to a distro guide topic?
Ketsu-Kun
2003-12-23, 18:00
Not yet AST.. it's coming though. ;P
I might post a list of reliable places which offer cheap servers so people can distro.
1TB from Nocster for $100 a month, 100GB for $39 a month usually. I could get people better deals if they ever wanted though from a variety of providers.
^_^
NenMaster
2003-12-25, 22:12
Ev1Servers (Formally Rackshack)
CPU - Intel Dual Xeon 2.0
RAM - 1GB
HDD - 3x 73GB (R5)
Transfer Per Month - 1.2TB
Port - 100MBIT
cPanel /w Redhat
Setup Fee - $1
Monthly Fee - $359
Server Matrix (Part Of The Planet)
CPU - 1.7 GHz Celeron
RAM - 512MB RAM
HDD - 80GB
Transfer Per Month - 1TB
Port - 100MBIT
Redhat/FreeBSD
- $49 Setup / $79 Month
- $99 Setup / $59 Month
FDC
- MIDTOWER or rack up to 4U
- BGP4 Multihomed connectivity to
- XO internet backbone
- YIPES internet backbone
- COGENT internet backbone
- 100Mbit port
- 10Mbit unmetered connection
- Extra traffic FREE !!!
- FREE IPs (arin rules)
- FREE reboots
- UN-METERED bandwidth
- no overage charges
- FREE SETUP
- FREE CPANEL control panel
Price : $149/month/per server
I know there are lots of other places like Equinix that do things like this, can't be assed to look for now. Hell even Nocster give you 1TB a month on a 100MBIT port for $100 a month on a fairly respectable server (Above average spec)
u are wrong
thats a 10mbit line, it has a 100mbit network card in it, so it can go upto 100mbit.
u think u will get the other 90mbs for free?
what happens when u use ure 1.2gb in 20 days? u gonna use another 1.2gb for free? NOPE
you will probally get charge with the 95th percentile billing, then u are fucked, if u peaked above youre 10mbs alot
also those servers where u get 100mbit pipe, u think they will give 100mb direct connection to every customer?
you are probally on the line with another 100 customers all trying to rape the fucker to get the most bandwith
look at the systems, they put loads of hdds in on purpose, to fuck you up when u transfer to much
instead of getting a ded server with 100mbit card in it, ask them to put it down to 10mbs so u dont end up getting charged 95th percentile
What exactly is the 95th Percentile?
The 95th percentile is a mathematical calculation widely used to evaluate the regular, sustained utilization of your Internet connection. The reason this statistic is so useful in measuring data throughput is that it gives a very accurate picture of the cost of the bandwidth. The 95th percentile says that 95% of the time, your usage is below this amount. Just the same, the remaining 5% of the time, your usage is above that amount. The 95th percentile is a good number to judge how much bandwidth you are actually utilizing and helps filter out usage spikes.
this is only good to the provider, u use 10mbs contant for days then peak to 60mb for some days u pay 60mb prices, probally at 60 bucks a (this is cheap from last time i looked) MB, so it will be $400 for server and 10mbs + $3000 for 50mbs at $60 a MB = $3400)
now do u see why people hack
Ketsu-Kun
2003-12-26, 08:04
I know exactly whay 95th percentile is, there's no need to lecture me. I use a set amount of transfer since I can buy more when I need it, to a set amount. I've gone way above 10MBIT in the past on multiple servers with those people and have yet to encounter any problems.
thats a 10mbit line, it has a 100mbit network card in it, so it can go upto 100mbit.
u think u will get the other 90mbs for free?
Already have. Oh', and it must suck if you've been providers who seem to give you 100:1 true contention on a 100MBIT line. The FDC is 10MBIT, I was merely including that for show.
look at the systems, they put loads of hdds in on purpose, to fuck you up when u transfer to much
You are seriously retarded.
One is used to store the actual files that you plan on utilizing, one is used to backup and the other drive can be used for storage of unneeded files.
They don't put them in to force you to use your transfer as you seem to think. Most dedicated server providers on set transfer, also provide additional transfer at a set price - Not at the 95th percentile terminology which is used with "unmetered connections" in some cases. Anyone who has common sense, will go with someone who won't charge them 95th percentile.
And half of your typing doesn't make sense, try to rearrange it. You still seem positive that EVERYONE hacks. They don't, so get over it.
Malnilion
2004-08-18, 13:01
Hrmmmm, I'm surprised nobody has made the argument for dvd ripping groups that they allow people to kind of find out whether or not they like a series before they buy it. For example, I know that it's illegal to download these animes, but why the hell would I want to spend the (somewhat excessive) amount just to see an anime for the first time and then later find out that I really don't like it as much as I thought I would. I don't know about other people, but I decide that if I don't like a series, it will be deleted. If I decide that I really like a series however, later I will buy it and then obviously delete it from my computer. I know what I'm doing is illegal, but I honestly intend to delete it all one day and buy some of it.
Now, to be on topic a bit for this post. I think hacking computers no matter what is wrong. However, people should not be so stupid to leave themselves open to such attacks.
NoSanninWa
2004-08-18, 18:04
Hrmmmm, I'm surprised nobody has made the argument for dvd ripping groups that they allow people to kind of find out whether or not they like a series before they buy it. For example, I know that it's illegal to download these animes, but why the hell would I want to spend the (somewhat excessive) amount just to see an anime for the first time and then later find out that I really don't like it as much as I thought I would. I don't know about other people, but I decide that if I don't like a series, it will be deleted.
That is vaguely a useful excuse to justify doing what you will do regardless. Of course it doesn't begin to justify either ripping or downloading of episode 3 and higher. There's no reason you need to see more than 2 episodes of a show to decide if you are going to buy it. Of course it is just a sophistry because you can usually get a taste of a show by renting it from a video store. If the video store near you doesn't have it then you just need to check out a few more. There's an awful lot of anime in video stores these days.
I'd suggest that you stop trying to make excuses and just admit that you're doing something wrong. Unless, perhaps, you can honestly say that you've never downloaded episode 3 of a show?
DekaMaster
2004-08-18, 18:13
Hrmmmm, I'm surprised nobody has made the argument for dvd ripping groups that they allow people to kind of find out whether or not they like a series before they buy it. For example, I know that it's illegal to download these animes, but why the hell would I want to spend the (somewhat excessive) amount just to see an anime for the first time and then later find out that I really don't like it as much as I thought I would. I don't know about other people, but I decide that if I don't like a series, it will be deleted. If I decide that I really like a series however, later I will buy it and then obviously delete it from my computer. I know what I'm doing is illegal, but I honestly intend to delete it all one day and buy some of it.
Now, to be on topic a bit for this post. I think hacking computers no matter what is wrong. However, people should not be so stupid to leave themselves open to such attacks.
Oh please. DVD ripping groups are only doing it so they can tell people how l337 they are.
What's the big deal? Groups have done much worse, social engineering, infiltration, character assasination, propaganda, this technical hacking stuff is child's play compared to what's gone on in the past. If you were there when back when the total groups numbered less than 20 you'd know this is nothing new. People babble about the 'scene' and whine on and on about the way they perceive things to be -- if you don't like it don't waste your time with it and don't hang around it, simple common sense.
LordFate
2004-08-19, 13:31
Here's how I see the problem. This is not so much a problem of illegal vs. legal because just by subbing and distroing anime we've all become international pirates. So, the question becomes, where do you draw the line? I personally refuse to root people because (1) It's my job at my school to track down and unroot computers, and I really don't feel like giving myself more work to do, and (2) rooting has more of a negative effect on the lives of others than subbing anime does.
The computers that I find rooted on my edu are scanning 1.8 million remote hosts per day or more. They're transfering at least 8 gigs a day in upload. They're easy to spot in our ip logs. But what's also easy to see are the computers that are connecting to these rooted pc. We could send a list 1,000 of ip's to the FBI each month, but we don't. Most of the people connecting to those computers are just the innocent anime lovers who want to watch shows they otherwise wouldn't get to see.
As for the rooters themselves, most aren't smart enough to mask their ip, and many will just go sequentially through a couple hundred subnets in their attempt to find a valnerable machine.
The reason I oppose rooting is (1) you as a rooter expose yourself to get caught way too easily, (2) the people who are rooted often find their computers so over-used that they waste their deptarment's (or own) money buying a new computer when they simply could have run a virus scan windows update. How would you feel if you knew that your root prevented the payroll of a college from running a backup of their files before a data loss occured?
As for rooting itself, it's easy. I have no qualms with calling the people who do it rooters because it's not a very prestegious title. Hacker on the other hand I won't even dignify them with because these are people who not only don't know how to program, but don't even understand the valunerabilities they are exploiting to get control of these machines.
I would include resources on how it's done, but I know it would be abused.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=19224 is a quick guide on keeping yourself safe
complich8
2004-08-19, 13:55
rooting has more of a negative effect on the lives of others than subbing anime does.
...
the people who are rooted often find their computers so over-used that they waste their deptarment's (or own) money buying a new computer when they simply could have run a virus scan windows update. How would you feel if you knew that your root prevented the payroll of a college from running a backup of their files before a data loss occured?
I'll partly agree with this. Many of the machines I see rooted are rooted by inconsiderate greedy script kiddie types, and that type usually uses the resources indiscriminately (I'd say your 8gb/day estimate is a little low of the mark from what I've seen, but maybe your network is slower than the ones I've seen these things happen to). Most "hackers" in the (anime, music, movie, warez) distribution world are in that category really, and have a basic skillset that revolves around the ability to follow instructions given to them by someone else and use tools written by someone else. A lot of them don't try to gain any sort awareness of what's going on on the machine.
On the other hand, these trivial exploits that people are using to get bots are often either incredibly stupid configs (blank or easily guessed administrator password is the biggest one), or incredibly unpatched machines (I still see dozens of scans for nachi and blaster and code red 2 per hour, for which there is NO excuse). Bad system administration (not keeping up on patches or not finding update solutions for their users that work) enables this stuff to happen, and as of right now is the only time I know of it happening. Nobody uses anything more complex than the basic skillset of a script kiddie: point a vuln scanner at an ip block and let it go.
If that keeps the payroll processing batches from running, or breaks someone's backup setup, I have to wonder "who in the hell is supposed to be maintaining those critical systems and why do they still have a job". Seriously.
Good system administration practices, good network awareness and good security policies will stop 100% of these kiddies at the door. They're not "determined intruders", they're scavengers looking for a computer that's an easy meal, that's basically already dead in the water. Take away the trivial exploits and they won't even look at your system twice.
Not saying that the kiddies are right ... just that they shouldn't be able to damage important operations.
Hmm this is a somewhat interesting issue to me. I am also a part of (LEGIT) distro for a couple of groups, whilst i don't condone the use of rooted boxes, I do see the benefits of them. That said, i believe they will soon be a thing of the past.
Network Administrators of high speed networks are becoming much quicker at identifying and removing rootkits, making the "hacked" boxes redundant very quickly, however with that there is always some exceptions, hackers also get smarter (I can tell you that because I know some who do it).
Don't forget that the boxes have to be able to be compromised in the firstplace for a rootkit to be installed, if anything OS makers are to blame for making a system so vulnerable and not having a default policy that locksdown your system.
Anyway i'm getting to the point, with the implentation of SP2, constant updates and hardware firewalls built into routers as well as software firewalls the amount of boxes able to be "rooted" SHOULD (if MS Security Techs do there job) become increasingly rare, however you will have those silly home users with no idea about security on there pc who are on fast exploitable connections.
Another thing tho, throughout European countries like norway, sweden, finland, netherlands they have 10mbit/100mbit connections at home, as do asian countries like korea and japan, even australia should have adsl2 by next year and with verizon in the usa soon to trial fibre to the premises the need for hacked boxes will become much less of a demand, you will see home users be able to host there own bot's (if they really want to) and the speed of bittorrents should also increase greatly.
Perhaps tho i'm getting ahead of myself. I guess tho you could say i'm really sitting on the fence about this issue for now. :hmm:
Oh there is one thing i forgot to mention.
The four bots i do run do a very large amount of traffic, 60TB in about 9 months so far since I started.
If an Admin doesn't notice just one bot (on average about 600GB a week) HE IS VERY STUPID AND SHOULD NO LONGER HAVE A JOB!
This amount of traffic coming from one machine on your network should be BLATANTLY obvious.
:fingers:
Oh there is one thing i forgot to mention.
The four bots i do run do a very large amount of traffic, 60TB in about 9 months so far since I started.
If an Admin doesn't notice just one bot (on average about 600GB a week) HE IS VERY STUPID AND SHOULD NO LONGER HAVE A JOB!
This amount of traffic coming from one machine on your network should be BLATANTLY obvious.
:fingers:
So let's see... some kid at school who knows nothing about computers but needs a computer to do work for school anyways gets his box compromised. Some annoying people set up a server on his box and voila, he starts blasting the network. Some admins find out, shut off his internet connection and also sends him to the administration for a talk about 'distributing illegal materials.'
If the admin didn't find out, he ends up flooding the uplink pipe, causing everyone else's legitimate transfers to slow down.
It doesn't matter if the admin finds out or not, rooting a box can make the life of the person whose box got rooted or the people around him VERY annoying. Just because some car door is left ajar in the parking lot does not mean you have a right to steal the car.
Joker-kun
2004-08-23, 20:18
This is no surprise, I really dont think it needed a topic, alot of people know this.
It's pathetic how corrupt irc and fansubs have become, its for sure lost its true meaning.
This is no surprise, I really dont think it needed a topic, alot of people know this.
It's pathetic how corrupt irc and fansubs have become, its for sure lost its true meaning.
What do hacked boxes and the true meaning of fansubbing have incommon here to discuss? :twitch: That it was more "noble" back then when distribution was done via mail?
Joker-kun
2004-08-23, 21:07
To the person above. I mean that it seems fansubs are getting worse and worse in alot of things they do, this is just another .
So let's see... some kid at school who knows nothing about computers but needs a computer to do work for school anyways gets his box compromised. Some annoying people set up a server on his box and voila, he starts blasting the network. Some admins find out, shut off his internet connection and also sends him to the administration for a talk about 'distributing illegal materials.'
If the admin didn't find out, he ends up flooding the uplink pipe, causing everyone else's legitimate transfers to slow down.
It doesn't matter if the admin finds out or not, rooting a box can make the life of the person whose box got rooted or the people around him VERY annoying. Just because some car door is left ajar in the parking lot does not mean you have a right to steal the car.
A) If the Admin found out and queried the student, who obviously would not have known about it, it's doubtful he would be in trouble for it because it was not his fault and more then likely should get a rundown in securing his or her pc.
B) Like i said before if the admin doesn't notice the traffic he deserves to loose his job. Because that is what they are PAID to prevent, just like cops and alarm companies are PAID to prevent auto theft. And no i know this doesn't give you the right to steal the car or steal someone else's connection, but it comes down to morals and "online" some people just don't have any.
markybot
2004-08-24, 20:56
Hi
Im a a little n00blet when it comes to what u guys are talkin about, mostly cuz I don't use irc. but it sounds a little scary.
If anyone can help me understand a few things I would appreciate it.
So the ppl who root other ppl's comps without the comp owner knowing....do they only do this to ppl on high speed networks? Like my little old home computer on roadrunner wouldnt look too good to them right?
Also, the ppl they find to root....do they just randomly look for ppl, or do they look for ppl on irc that they can scab off of?
Lastly do ppl on bt get rooted too?
I have a bt window open almost 24 hours because I am constantly leeching and seeding anime.
Sorry if I sound a little paranoid, but I just rebuilt my comp, but b4 I could even put my Norton in, it got hijacked from some site or somewhere. My homepage kept goin to some spanish website, but i couldnt change it back because in Internet options the "set ur homepage" would not highlight. So I go to open up my powertoys to tweak a little but find out that the admin has disabled that feature. So I go into the registry to see whats goin on...but apparently I cant because the network admin disabled the registry editor as well. (btw my network consists of 1 computer...and im the admin) it wasnt till i did a google later on that someone else had the same thing happen to them where the spanish website was stickin to their homepage, but they offered no fix, I did however learn the term hijacked from his post =/ so I guess reading this just made me even more paranoid of someone taking over my machine. It is one of the most frustrating things in the world to not be able to control your own comp. I didnt build my fawking comp for some spanish website! I was up for 24 hours straight cuz after I got home from work I was reinstalling programs and what not just to make sure it was secure again.
Hi
Im a a little n00blet when it comes to what u guys are talkin about, mostly cuz I don't use irc. but it sounds a little scary.
If anyone can help me understand a few things I would appreciate it.
So the ppl who root other ppl's comps without the comp owner knowing....do they only do this to ppl on high speed networks? Like my little old home computer on roadrunner wouldnt look too good to them right?
Also, the ppl they find to root....do they just randomly look for ppl, or do they look for ppl on irc that they can scab off of?
Lastly do ppl on bt get rooted too?
I have a bt window open almost 24 hours because I am constantly leeching and seeding anime.
Sorry if I sound a little paranoid, but I just rebuilt my comp, but b4 I could even put my Norton in, it got hijacked from some site or somewhere. My homepage kept goin to some spanish website, but i couldnt change it back because in Internet options the "set ur homepage" would not highlight. So I go to open up my powertoys to tweak a little but find out that the admin has disabled that feature. So I go into the registry to see whats goin on...but apparently I cant because the network admin disabled the registry editor as well. (btw my network consists of 1 computer...and im the admin) it wasnt till i did a google later on that someone else had the same thing happen to them where the spanish website was stickin to their homepage, but they offered no fix, I did however learn the term hijacked from his post =/ so I guess reading this just made me even more paranoid of someone taking over my machine. It is one of the most frustrating things in the world to not be able to control your own comp. I didnt build my fawking comp for some spanish website! I was up for 24 hours straight cuz after I got home from work I was reinstalling programs and what not just to make sure it was secure again.
Chances of a home user getting rooted are small. Home connections are weak, not up 24/7/7/365(6). It's just a hacker installing some software on your machine to steal your bandwidth, to send files he "smuggled" into your computer through IRC xdcc bots (or other means). Even if you are on a fast home connection, rooters usually go for high-speed lines, usually EDU connections.
If you really think that spanish website is a consequence of a hacker, just format your PC and install firewalls before connecting on internet. That's always an option.
Chances of a home user getting rooted are small. Home connections are weak, not up 24/7/7/365(6).
If you are on a known "good" ISP, the chances are as high as everywhere else that you can get rooted at home. "Good" means the ISP gives everyone unlimited upload at "high" speeds and does not bother to protect their users.
If you are on a known "good" ISP, the chances are as high as everywhere else that you can get rooted at home. "Good" means the ISP gives everyone unlimited upload at "high" speeds and does not bother to protect their users.
Everyone knows that isp's who tries to protect their users do so at the cost of their users freedom on the internet by blocking stuff for the user.
Its up to the home user to secure his own computer.
Most known virus programs can detect a rootkit.
Take Care
Sakaki-
To the person above. I mean that it seems fansubs are getting worse and worse in alot of things they do, this is just another .
Because today there are a lot more fansub groups (over 100) than there were in years past, so of course there will be more groups doing 'bad' things. Whiners have a tendency to find the bad and ignore everything else. The same way if you know someone long enough, eventually you'll find something bad about them, but are you going to hate them because of it?
Most known virus programs can detect a rootkit.
Take Care
Sakaki-
To keep this simple and not turn this into a techncial forum, lets just say that this is false. (Infact, the majority dont...)
to the original distressed poster, if a group's release is hacked it is because the group broke into a machine that was not thiers and put their releases on it. So here comes another group also scanning for hacked machines and comes across this groups stuff on a hacked machine and rehacks it!
it's like a theif who breaks into a house to steal a computer, puts all his work on it only to find it has been stolen by another theif haha
Not all groups use hacked machines, it is important to point this out. I know many groups that pay 150$ US a month to rent dedicated computers to run their xdcc bots.
complich8
2004-08-26, 11:27
Chances of a home user getting rooted are small. Home connections are weak, not up 24/7/7/365(6). It's just a hacker installing some software on your machine to steal your bandwidth, to send files he "smuggled" into your computer through IRC xdcc bots (or other means). Even if you are on a fast home connection, rooters usually go for high-speed lines, usually EDU connections.
rooted by someone looking for distro? certainly the chances of that are small. rooted by someone scanning to get ddos bots or getting rooted by an autorooter virus (nachi comes to mind): a LOT higher.
To the fansub community, and to the warez community, a home user's pc is completely unimportant and pretty much useless. To the "hacker" (script kiddie) community, it's just as valuable to have 10,000 rooted boxes with 128kbit upload as it is to have 100 rooted 10 mbit boxes... maybe even more valuable, because nobody is going to track down all 10,000 rooted boxes that are ddosing them.
To the virus community, autorooter network-scanning worms are becoming the norm ... dcom, ms-sql, iis holes have all seen this sort of worm (ms-blast, nachi, sql-slammer, code red, code red 2, nimda). Any time a new network exploit comes out, these things happen. Even simple email is subject to these things (pick any of the dozens of variants of the dozens of worms that exploited insecure office 2000 and ie 5 defaults).
In the last few years, a lot of the "big" internet problems would have been completely stopped at the door with the use of hardened endpoint systems (personal firewalls, well-defined security policies, nontrivial passwords, mandatory authentication) and ubiquitous continually updated antivirus software, but far too few people run anything close to any of that.
it's precisely the attitude "I'm not going to get anything, my connection is worthless to these people" that lets things like ddos botnets exist, which is a FAR worse problem than people using university bandwidth for whatever distro.
To keep this simple and not turn this into a techncial forum, lets just say that this is false. (Infact, the majority dont...)
So, any guides, tools even to find, remove rootkits? Would be appreciated. (yes, complich8 scurred me) :)
So, any guides, tools even to find, remove rootkits? Would be appreciated. (yes, complich8 scurred me) :)
The best way that ive tried... is to throw in a Knoppix Live CD and go searching for the files, but that is only for the well made kits. Most of them are in plain sight if you just look for them and all files that share the same day. There are lots of programs which they claim they do stuff (VICE), but i couldnt get them to work as advertised. If you google, you can find some decent guides and more information, but i dont know any offhand.
AVG Personal Edition and LavaSoft's AdAware.
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-09-06, 13:06
What im confuzzled about is...if lil ol' me was on the internet on irc, i just might get rooted!?!?!?!
.....this is shocking!!
I never thought fansubbing groups would do this far..
but i what i also dont get is, why not use bit torrent..or can u get rooted on bit torrent also? i mean..if like..2000 ppl (on some channels i have seen) use bit torrent, wouldn't it make bit torrent for everyone alot faster than just 1 seeder and 40 peers?
What im confuzzled about is...if lil ol' me was on the internet on irc, i just might get rooted!?!?!?!
.....this is shocking!!
I never thought fansubbing groups would do this far..
but i what i also dont get is, why not use bit torrent..or can u get rooted on bit torrent also? i mean..if like..2000 ppl (on some channels i have seen) use bit torrent, wouldn't it make bit torrent for everyone alot faster than just 1 seeder and 40 peers?
That depends on what kind of connection you're on. Unless you're on some ultra high speed connection, people won't really bother hacking in to your PC for anime distribution purpose. And why do people still like the XDCC bots? Because those old commers like to hog the bandwidth, and leech as fast as their bandwidth will allow them. I believe in the power of BT, but not everyone does...
Its so easy to stop a hacker/worm from entering your system, good Firewall rules own every single hacker out there =P
<3 Iptables & CHX-1 (Firewall for windows, much like Iptables + Free for home use)
I myself have administrated quite a few servers and saw daily hack attempts on Apache, SSH, and MySQL in the firewall logs. blocking every incoming connection works ^_^.
They were proxy servers, so they dont need to create new incoming connections (blocking initial SYN packets) but just allowing the server to create the connection itself and receive data back from the webserver on the same connetion (aka outside comps are not allowed to initiate a connection to the proxy, only the proxy may initiate a connection).
Only thing that might work is if a hacker spoofs itself as a webserver that a proxy user is using, but seeing how its virtually impossible to determine that and the connection closes so fast AND you need to get the destination port right, the threat is lower than George Bush's IQ.
Conclusion: Firewalls and Brains own hackers/script kiddies on every single step they take in trying to root your server/comp.
PS: For all you Outlook/MSIE users, get a real browser/Email prog, get Firefox/Thunderbird
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-09-07, 18:51
i had no idea people would sink this looooow :nono:
It really is a shame...
I guess its true, most fansubbers morals are out the door.
Oh well, its just a drama fest anyhow.
r00ted bots should be killed, etc. Don't support rooms that do it.
The fansubbers know who r00ts and who doesn't.
If they cared, they'd do something about it.
DekaMaster
2004-09-08, 13:48
It really is a shame...
I guess its true, most fansubbers morals are out the door.
Oh well, its just a drama fest anyhow.
r00ted bots should be killed, etc. Don't support rooms that do it.
The fansubbers know who r00ts and who doesn't.
If they cared, they'd do something about it.
I just love when people think they have any right to speak of "most fansubbers" or "most" anyone.
It really is a shame...
I guess its true, most fansubbers morals are out the door.
Oh well, its just a drama fest anyhow. It's been like this for a while. The whole l33tness started when E-F and A-E started putting out essentially 0-day fansubs. Not saying they did anything wrong, quite the opposite, but all of a sudden alot of bandwagon jumpers decided they could do the same thing, and it became all about ego, l33tness, speedsubbing, fansub orgies *cough* Naruto and SDK *cough*
r00ted bots should be killed, etc. Don't support rooms that do it.
The fansubbers know who r00ts and who doesn't.
If they cared, they'd do something about it. Easier said than done... the owners of the bots obviously have no problem with them. And yeah, not supporting is a decent idea, but leechers in general are too needy to make that work.
[
Hmmm N-Bomb fro AiA... i never thought you looked at these forums..
And to DekaMaster, stop trying to be a drama hog..
:innocent:
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-09-08, 20:20
this might be irrelevant,
but many ppl have said that fansubbing is illegal no matter if the series is licensed or not....
but on many posts on forums.animesuki.com
ppl say that fansubbing is illegal
what im confuzzled about is...y is it illegal? i have a hunch that its owned by some japanese company...but im not too sure...
this might be irrelevant,
but many ppl have said that fansubbing is illegal no matter if the series is licensed or not....
but on many posts on forums.animesuki.com
ppl say that fansubbing is illegal
what im confuzzled about is...y is it illegal? i have a hunch that its owned by some japanese company...but im not too sure...
It is illegal because it involves distributing video without a valid license from the copyright owner and it is also illegal because it involves distributing a translation without permission, etc.
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-09-09, 20:49
im doing this project (personal interest project) and we get to choose our own topic and i ahve choosen FANSUBBING....and do u know where i can find a site that thoroghouly explains the laws or whatever of fansubbing (i want to getta good mark since im in grade 6....its gonna matter when i apply for a good high school)...im hoping this legal POV will earn me some good marks..!!
http://members.tripod.com/~AvatarHR/legalfaq.html
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=18687&highlight=legal
http://www.google.com/search?q=legality+of+fansubbing&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
You can do some basic searches to find lots of resources and answers for that.
lomeando
2004-09-10, 00:24
A nice thread on the subject is available at http://www.acen.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-4238.html
The relevant portion:
Fansubs are in fact illegal in the United States due to the Berne Convention. Here is a quote from US Code Title 17:
17.1.106
"...the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
..."
Fair Use is often sited but section 17.1.107 illustrates that it is not applicable:
"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, (...) for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."
Fansubs are none of these things.
Article 2 of the Berne Convention states:
2.1 "The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression..."
and
2.6 "The works mentioned in this article shall enjoy protection in all countries of the Union. This protection shall operate for the benefit of the author and his successors in title."
Japan is part of the Berne Convention.
The only actual "gray area" in fansubbing involves the translation itself. According to Article 8 of the Berne convention:
"Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works..."
This indicates that making translations of copyrighted works is illegal under the Berne Convention, but there has been some indication that distributing a translation, in written form, is actually legal.
Article 9 covers reproduction of a protected work. i.e. You can't make a copy without permission. It goes on to state:
9.3 "Any sound or visual recording shall be considered as a reproduction for the purposes of this Convention."
Article 12 covers adaptations of a work:
12.0 "Authors of literary or artistic works shall enjoy the exclusive right of authorizing adaptations, arrangements and other alterations of their works."
Also, any member of the Berne Convention has to uphold copyright of any other member of the convention if that member requests it:
16.1 "Infringing copies of a work shall be liable to seizure in any country of the Union where the work enjoys legal protection."
Please refer to the actual text of U.S. Code Title 17 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/) and the text of the Berne Convention (http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html).
Those are the laws that cover fansubbing. Short summary: distributing video illegal; translating illegal; distributing scripts maybe legal (with the permission of the translator, who holds the copyright, of course).
There are also various codes and policies that form fansubber's "ethics", which state how far we're willing to break the law. These vary from person to person, but the main gist is usually:
Cease distribution when a title is licensed in <locality of choice>.
Accept no monetary compensation (except perhaps the cost of physical media and postage, if mailing CDs, tapes, etc.).
Such rules are designed to ensure that we are working in the best interests of the Japanese companies who create anime, in the hopes that we will not be prosecuted. While some people try to play it even safer than the letter of the rules (avoiding titles like Gundam that are considered "automatic licenses", even if no license has been announced, etc.), many more slide the other way (replacing "licensed" with "released", not only distributing but actively subbing licensed shows, or even selling other people's fansubs on eBay at a profit). To date I know of no actual legal action against such people that would persuade them that they will be held responsible for their actions. However, some American companies have sent cease and desist letters to groups subbing or distributing shows they hold the licenses to. In theory, however, the entire fansubbing community could be served with such papers.
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-09-10, 19:07
THANK U!!! ..now here comes the hard part....o_O reading it.....i guess my main focus on my topic can be in the legalness area..
I think people here are defining right and wrong by the boundary the law provides. Let's say you're against homosexual marriages, and Bush allows it on the federal level (it'll never happen, but I need something to support my points), are you instantly going to change sides and support same-sex marriages?
Some people say it's bad because you're forcing access and abusing bandwidth, how is that any different than those 'legal distros' having no consideration on bandwidth fees like those ignorant fools who set unlimited upload with 2000 slots on kazaa? *cough anime-xtreme *cough. Aside from possibly getting a student in trouble, which only one guy pointed out, I don't see how having access for 100mbit lines for free because you're enrolled as a student any different than rooting a 100mbit and gaining unauthorized access. For the legal access, it can be stopped just by suspending the student's account, and for the illegal ones, as others have pointed out too, sysadmin should check bandwidth usage and make sure the computers are secure.
Oh, gee, so hacking is just fine because they're just trying to get what some other people have access to through legal means?
Free connection? Last time I checked, those students were paying their schools several thousand dollars to have those fast connections. It's included in the housing fees, you know?
These forums continue to amaze me...
As you said, tuitions pay for the school, not an i2 connection for people to abuse.
The thing is, legal or not, anime distro has been blowing bandwidth out of proportion and cost universities money, if people are saying the problem with rooted bots is monetary issues, then they should also include legal distro who has also been abusing bandwidth. As I stated before previously the only thing I find immoral about rooting is you might get a student in trouble for using their logins, and only one person out of this entire thread identified that reason.
digitize
2004-09-13, 00:49
Again as Elepsis said you pay for tuition and room & board, included in room & board is the cost for the internet. You're paying for it, so how is it immoral to make use of it. Now it is illegal to distribute copyrighted material but that another topic. You say rooted bots create monetary issues for universities.... it doesn't. They have the bandwidth as it is, rooted bots or not. Now I don't think this makes rooted bots fine, but my point is if you have a legit box at the university, it doesn't create monetary problems while using a decent amount of bandwidth... b/c again the university has the bandwidth already. If one was to use quite a bit of bandwidth, an admin would most likely warn the person, problem solved.
As you said, tuitions pay for the school, not an i2 connection for people to abuse.
The thing is, legal or not, anime distro has been blowing bandwidth out of proportion and cost universities money, if people are saying the problem with rooted bots is monetary issues, then they should also include legal distro who has also been abusing bandwidth. As I stated before previously the only thing I find immoral about rooting is you might get a student in trouble for using their logins, and only one person out of this entire thread identified that reason.
By providing the connection, the university essentially enters in an agreement with the student: They provide the connection for the student to do whatever he or she wishes to as long as they stay within the terms of service. The students who are LEGALLY using their connection are doing NOTHING WRONG. You're allowed to spend ALL of the bandwidth your university lets you have. Period. This is, once again, not an issue at all.
NenMaster
2004-09-15, 09:26
damn this thread is old, i aint hacked for a ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time, i wouldnt mind seeing what new xpolits are out
digitize
2004-09-15, 10:29
Bleh, realize this thread isn't a Windows Script Kiddies discussion, it's about how such people use illegal means to take control over other computers and how such things are immoral....
damn this thread is old, i aint hacked for a ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time, i wouldnt mind seeing what new xpolits are out
Don't hack people, jackass. It's totally uncivil, and illegal as well.
You'd think after a six-page thread you'd get the point.
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-09-20, 20:12
Don't hack people, jackass. It's totally uncivil, and illegal as well.
You'd think after a six-page thread you'd get the point.
i agree...........its really mean..i dink i've been hacked before..cuz my computer sometimes just doesnt start up..o_O
i really dislike this hacking thing..........
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