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daedalus6
2003-11-04, 02:58
(I tried my best to capture the deep ideas hidden in the last thread name :)

Anyway Doddler and Ag3 lets take it from here.

Last when we left off we were talking about lolicons and stuff. Is it ok to see naked children in h-games? Or ís seeing children as sex objects morally wrong?




And most of all is there universal morals? :love:

Yellat
2003-11-04, 03:39
(I tried my best to capture the deep ideas hidden in the last thread name :)

Anyway Doddler and Ag3 lets take it from here.

Last when we left off we were talking about lolicons and stuff. Is it ok to see naked children in h-games? Or ís seeing children as sex objects morally wrong?




And most of all is there universal morals? :love:
them being naked doesnt mean that is sexual, sorta like those pictures your family probably has of u in the tub as a kid. and i dont think there is a universal set of morals just because everyone sees issues differently, nobody *has* to be right. done with garabage.

daedalus6
2003-11-04, 04:12
them being naked doesnt mean that is sexual, sorta like those pictures your family probably has of u in the tub as a kid. and i dont think there is a universal set of morals just because everyone sees issues differently, nobody *has* to be right. done with garabage.

Ok ofcourse what I ment was having sex with those children. Of course package says 18 but i see it little differently. :eyebrow:

Nagare Ryouma
2003-11-04, 05:28
Well, it depends on the H-game... Not every h-game has kids being sexually harrassed or further more. Some h-game to my surprise are very well done. It's no wonder how some of them actually make it to the anime world.....

AG3
2003-11-04, 10:44
(I tried my best to capture the deep ideas hidden in the last thread name :)

Anyway Doddler and Ag3 lets take it from here.

Last when we left off we were talking about lolicons and stuff. Is it ok to see naked children in h-games? Or ís seeing children as sex objects morally wrong?


I thought we agreed that it wasn't any worse to have sex with fictional characters of questionable age than it was to kill them (like you can in Fallout 2, for instance).

Didn't we agree on that? I thought I had you converted to the "grab a loli" lair... :p

Fiction is fiction, real is real. I try to avoid sleeping with "minors-who-supposedly-aren't-minor" in real life, but I think it's ok in Bishoujo games. At least in those I play.

Mind you, I'm talking about sleeping with lolis out of mutual consent here. Rape, no matter the age of the fictional person involved, turns my stomach, and though others can play that all they like, I won't. Still, I won't criticize them for liking something I don't. Everyone has likes and dislikes, and as long as they don't try to justify such behaviour in real life, I won't lift an eyebrow.

I feel like adding a few pictures from my favorite Bishoujo game, Kana - Little Sister:

http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Kana/SKana01.jpg http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Kana/SKana07.jpg

http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Kana/SKana10.jpg http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Kana/SKana03.jpg

http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Kana/SKana02.jpg http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Kana/SKana09.jpg

Ok, maybe that was too many... poor 56k'ers. If you want to know more about this great game, who's greatness is so great that the great people in Japan are making an XBOX version of it, without the great sex scenes, visit
this great Kana site! (http://pages.prodigy.net/kana/) . Great, isn't it ? :D

It's not mine, by the way.

Oh, and I hope that "awful" in the thread's title was ironic/sarcastic, daedalus6! Otherwise I might have to rant long and hard at you about ignorance, generaliztion and all that. Again. Really, I don't feel like repeating everything it that giant H-game thread from the old forums. :p

[Titan]
2003-11-04, 11:21
I don't mind H game to Anime as long as it becomes a good series, which is either funny (like Popotan) or has a good storyline (Like KgNE and Kanon).

where's Doddler btw? I think he knows from which game my ava and sig are ^^"

Kempis Curious
2003-11-04, 15:25
I was actually wondering about the h-game to clean anime trend lately and I have some questions...

Is there a reason for that trend? Or is it a confirmation bias?
Are these games really that good?
Why are the anime's not H? A lot of them seem to swing to completely clean! :confused: Are the games clean except for the "doin' it"?


-k

curious

Breogan
2003-11-04, 15:48
I was actually wondering about the h-game to clean anime trend lately and I have some questions...

Is there a reason for that trend? Or is it a confirmation bias?
Are these games really that good?
Why are the anime's not H? A lot of them seem to swing to completely clean! :confused: Are the games clean except for the "doin' it"?


Actually most of these games have good plots and characters, and the sex is used as a bonus. By removing the sex scenes you still have a good story that can target wider audiences, thus maximizing the benefits :)

]where's Doddler btw? I think he knows from which game my ava and sig are ^^"

If you find out what anime/game your sig is from I'd be eternally grateful if you could tell me. I simpy LOVE that pic ;)

[Titan]
2003-11-04, 17:58
Kempis Curious: why the anime is not H: Simple, money. If you have a good storyline, and you cut out the H parts, you have a larger audience, and more buyers, than when you leave the H parts in. Also, people buying H stuff usually buy it for the H parts, so you either have to remove all the H, or put in extra.
There are exceptions of course, where H anime has a good storyline (I think Kite is a good example (I keep hearing that name) ).
Hgame to Anime is nothing new, and yes, some of the games are really good and contain a very good storyline (better than your average anime series)

Breogan: The problem is, I don't know either, I think it was Doddler who once mentioned the name of the game on the old forum, but that post is lost due to the crash, and I haven't seen Doddler since (his account got wiped out as well, so no PM's) :(

boneyjellyfish
2003-11-04, 19:49
']If you have a good storyline, and you cut out the H parts, you have a larger audience, and more buyers, than when you leave the H parts in. Also, people buying H stuff usually buy it for the H parts, so you either have to remove all the H, or put in extra.
There are exceptions of course, where H anime has a good storyline (I think Kite is a good example (I keep hearing that name) ).
Hgame to Anime is nothing new, and yes, some of the games are really good and contain a very good storyline (better than your average anime series)


This reminds me of what happened to the original Mizuiro OVA. Mizuiro was a spectacular H-Game, but it was absolutely terrible when it was converted into a H-Anime. Then they made a second OVA that wasn't an H-Anime and it was actually pretty good!

Also, Kite does rock, but it's a gorefest and the men have rather "exaggerated" proportions.

Wolfwood2970
2003-11-04, 20:22
Well here is my response

I wouldnt watch any of those kinds of stuff but if someone else wants to its their choice... I dont think that it should be banned and everyone should have a riot and such to have kids having sex in H games banned or anything

Here is a good example

Its kinda like this... Its kinda like your playing a game like GTA 3 running around beating up cops, stealing cars, killing people, stealing money ect ect... Does that nessecarily mean that someone will actually go out and do that? i dont think so.... Is it a crime to play a game that has crime related themes? i dont think so either so i definently think that it depends on if they want to watch it or not

Doddler
2003-11-04, 21:33
Aww shucks, I'm touched. People remember who I am ^_^.

Unfortunately, I'm a bit short on time to write a 3 - 4 page rant like last time, but be sure I'll do it either later today or tomorrow. Look forward to it :D.

Oh, I'll answer your question titan. Your avatar / sig is from he game Utawarerumono (http://leaf.aquaplus.co.jp/product/uta.htm), by leaf. (Link is family friendly and good to view). The game is an visual-novel adventure / tactical stratagy RPG ^_^. Best game of 2002 from Puregirl and E-Login magazines (the only two I read though :P)

I'll be back later to give a good convincing argument :).

Doddler

Breogan
2003-11-04, 22:14
Lots of thanks for the info on the game Doddler :)

AG3
2003-11-05, 00:38
Well here is my response

IIts kinda like this... Its kinda like your playing a game like GTA 3 running around beating up cops, stealing cars, killing people, stealing money ect ect... Does that nessecarily mean that someone will actually go out and do that? i dont think so.... Is it a crime to play a game that has crime related themes? i dont think so either so i definently think that it depends on if they want to watch it or not

If you had been around at the last H-game thread, you would have seen people commenting that killing hundreds of people with a chainsaw wasn't even half as bad as sleeping with your own sister or with a "minor", regardless of mutual consent.

It's always reassuring to see future adults live by "make war, not love, don't screw people because shooting them is less wrong".

Todays previewed game: Tottemo Pheromone, by Trabulance and G-Collections:

http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Tottemo_Pheromone/Erika1.jpg http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Tottemo_Pheromone/Silks.jpg

http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Tottemo_Pheromone/Ayumi.jpg http://www.cliparthost.com/accounts/sniperscope/Tottemo_Pheromone/TPGirls.jpg

rayearth
2003-11-05, 01:42
If you had been around at the last H-game thread, you would have seen people commenting that killing hundreds of people with a chainsaw wasn't even half as bad as sleeping with your own sister or with a "minor", regardless of mutual consent.


Just the point I've been waiting to be pointed out! Bottom line with all this "it's wrong because it came from H games" basically burns down to average westerner's inability to accept "not all H games are porn" (just like the old "Sailor Moon and Dragonball is not all the Anime there is"). Unless they're willing to change their point of view, it won't get anywhere (although any kind of discussion is basically the same). It's pretty much no good trying to convince or even explain to these people now, they'll know it when the time comes or if they choose to be left out of it all, then let them be. It's just that I don't see any kind of meaningful end coming to this thread... Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this thread should be closed.

Doddler
2003-11-05, 03:43
This thread this time around really lacks motivation. The last time, it started off with a whole bunch of bashing and people being disgusted... The argument was why not all these games are bad. Unfortunately we don't have that going for us this time. Still, I'd like to see some moral discussions come from this chat again like last time.

Doddler

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 04:47
Yeah Doddler and AG3 are back!!!!!!;)

AG3
2003-11-05, 10:28
This thread this time around really lacks motivation. The last time, it started off with a whole bunch of bashing and people being disgusted... The argument was why not all these games are bad. Unfortunately we don't have that going for us this time. Still, I'd like to see some moral discussions come from this chat again like last time.

Doddler

Hear that, people? We need ignorant noodles, people who must be converted to our cause, to be indoctrinated into "Adult Loli and Bishoujo game Lovers International, ALBLI for short. PayPal account for donations pending, courtesy of yours truly.

To become a member is simple: Just post your ignorance in all its glory here, if you think GTA killing is OK but Bishoujo game sex is bad, and that actual minors are harmed in the production and use of these Bishoujo games. We'll have you straightened out in no time at all. Your actual experience may differ from the box illustration.


Ok, enough joking. I guess you could say that the less arguments like that of the old thread we have, the more happy we can be that people understand, and that maybe the future of the struggling adult Bishoujo game translating industry isn't so dark after all. I think that thing I have here is called naivety, but I could be mistaken. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Of course, it doesn't make for interesting discussions and conversations if everyone agrees on everything. As Doddler has mentioned, currently there isn't much need for a fiery debate here. But don't worry, a tiny unsuspecting lamb is sure to pass by soon. We'll be ready to roast then.

Doddler
2003-11-05, 15:32
Ok, enough joking. I guess you could say that the less arguments like that of the old thread we have, the more happy we can be that people understand, and that maybe the future of the struggling adult Bishoujo game translating industry isn't so dark after all. I think that thing I have here is called naivety, but I could be mistaken. Feel free to prove me wrong.


Unfortunately, I belive piracy is whats what makes the industry's future dark. I'm not normally a anti-piracy activist, but it is whats killing the industry. Just look at the numbers. Last year, kumiko of peach princess released thier products in order of sales. X-Change at that point (a year after its release) was thier top selling game. She also mentioned that it had sold almost twice any of thier other games (at that time, tokimeki check-in!, Snow Drop, and *shiver* water closet), and was on its third production run. Kumiko also mentioned by mistake in another thread that each production run was 1000 units. I know its been a while since then... but 1 year after its release and thier best selling game had sold under 3000 units. Thier next best game, tokimeki check-in! had sold just over a thousand copies.

Really though, piracy is whats keeping this industry down. I don't think I've seen anything sadder than when Kana was released on bit torrent... and probably has more than twice as many downloads in that week than g-collections has ever sold of the game.

Doddler

AG3
2003-11-05, 16:39
Really though, piracy is whats keeping this industry down. I don't think I've seen anything sadder than when Kana was released on bit torrent... and probably has more than twice as many downloads in that week than g-collections has ever sold of the game.

Doddler

I think you misinterpreted my joke a little bit, Doddler :) . I didn't mean that the current state of the industry was caused by ignorance on the average persons part, though that is a factor too. I know piracy is the main offender here. It's pretty much common sense.

Just about everyone knows about "hentai" games, but how many have actually bought one? Probably 80% of the people voicing their opinion on these games have pirated them, around 19% don't know what the heck they are talking about, just compare them to the Hentai anime they've seen, and the rest have actually bought a game and then formed their opinions.

I've already pretty much given up hope of the situation getting better. That's why I'm working on my poor Japanese vocabulary when I have time. I'll be speaking Japanese fluently, without any outside help or lessons, long before the situation for the adult Bishoujo game translating business improves. Unfortunately.

Lambda
2003-11-05, 17:39
Really though, piracy is whats keeping this industry down.

Is there any real evidence for this?

Doddler
2003-11-05, 18:05
Yes. 4 of the 6 translation companies have gone out of business, and one of them, Peach Princess, seems to have stopped taking on new titles. I know people who work for PP, and talked to the people at G-Collections about it.

Based on actual sales numbers... and how much you can find for download on the net (like the kana bit torrent), I'd say a good 20, even 30 (and possibly higher) to 1 ratio of people who play or own pirated copies of these games compared to legit.

AG3, I knew it was a joke, but I needed to rant about *something* :P And your right, I play japanese games because there's no hope left for the english industry as well. But every little bit helps I suppose. I emailed g-collections about the kana bit torrent and they said they will get him to take down the download or take action against him.

Doddler

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 18:22
Doddler, firstly..

Piracy is not keeping this industry down, people were more then likely never going to buy the game. Say 0.01% perhaps of the people who downloaded it.. and that's being generous.

G-Collections don't lose money from piracy, they just don't make any more profit on their already expensive games.

You could use the same theory in Anime, and I'm sure most of the people on these Forum's have downloaded licensed Anime at one point or another - Hell even you probably have.

What is killing the industry is people who MAKE MONEY from pirating games, not people who just make the download available to people who would never buy it anyway. It doesn't affect the company in the slightest. It only affects them if people buy it from a cheaper source, money that they could have gained.

Oh' and you do realise Nandayo don't have to take down the torrent?

A) The complete file is not hosted on their servers, they are merely a tracker.

B) They could put up the legal statement clause which is basically a loophole, download only if you own the game for backup purposes.

And seriously, do you have nothing better to do then try and get a company to take legal action against a 16 year old?

Man, you really need to get out more often.

DarknessTear
2003-11-05, 18:30
Yes. 4 of the 6 translation companies have gone out of business, and one of them, Peach Princess, seems to have stopped taking on new titles. I know people who work for PP, and talked to the people at G-Collections about it.

Based on actual sales numbers... and how much you can find for download on the net (like the kana bit torrent), I'd say a good 20, even 30 (and possibly higher) to 1 ratio of people who play or own pirated copies of these games compared to legit.

AG3, I knew it was a joke, but I needed to rant about *something* :P And your right, I play japanese games because there's no hope left for the english industry as well. But every little bit helps I suppose. I emailed g-collections about the kana bit torrent and they said they will get him to take down the download or take action against him.

Doddler

We know your name is Doddler, stop putting it at the bottom of your posts. It's pointless.

Moving on.. you're completely stupid and you deserve to be thrown in a wood chipper. <3

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 18:36
Oh' by the way, did you know how LITTLE it costs for them to translate a game? Hell, I'm sure they make a huge ass profit on the games due to the mere fact that they sell them at extortionate pricing levels.

Piracy isn't killing the industry, the industry is killing the industry. How? Pricing.

Segahekui
2003-11-05, 18:41
lol... but lets not make this a flame thread..
HOWEVER we know it was you doddler who sent Ket a message to remove the link. First of all u didnt even email him.. u just clicked his contact button.. second of all u misspelled immediately .. u spelled it "immdietly"
anyways we're all pirates in some sort of way.. even if its dl ONE song or having 100 gigs.. hell.. even if u use a picture without asking in one of your sigs thats pirateing so its hard to beleive ur a saint. so well im a pirate ur a pirate, come live on me pirate ship, cuz your mother lives on a pirate ship! :fingers:
(note- that was a pun on the "hold your tounge thing")

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 18:43
Oh' did I forget to mention if G-Collections had tried to take legal action against me, they would have failed miserably.

A) I'm 16, and I'd love to see them pull an international underage lawsuit.

B) Half my family is in law. ;)

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 18:56
Legal Action against a 16 year old...? There is several ways you can get your ass kicked......
1.- they just so straight up and sue ur parents.
2.-Dude......well they force you to delete whatever it was.....and press charges...as well.
3.-They can just fuck u up ;)

LoL .......man now seriously......ever though your a minor, you can get in some deep legal shit......so dont be saying......OH HALF MY FAM ARE IN LAW.....than ask them get some info on that.

Btw.....Half my fam are Assasins......so what? :fingers:

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 18:57
ALSO!!!!!

wait until AG3 and Doddler come back, im sure they are doing some research to do a come back on you kiddos. ^_^

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:00
A) I'm doing a course in Law right now, I know alot more in regards to this.

B) I've sent G Collections a copy of our legal disclaimer which includes the fact that you may only download the game for backup purposes if you already own the game.

B alone has stopped them from being able to do a thing.

And secondly, do you even know how to type correctly? Or are you really so illiterate that you don't know the meaning of the word sentence structure.

Half your family are assassins? Is that meant to make me give a damn? By referring to half my family is in law means that I know exactly what I need to do.. idiot.

Your family may be assassins, but you're an asshole.

Flash_Squirrel
2003-11-05, 19:04
Btw.....Half my fam are Assasins......so what? :fingers:

Omg, please, get a point, he is trying to point out that G-col doesnt even pay for the games they translate and you come up with crap like that? -_-;

I wonder why no one is as quick as Doddler with liScensed(Ecchi-bot slaps Fushigi_SquirrelX822: Licensed or Licenced) anime? Why dont you report all the flood of groups doing licensed anime to the company with the license? Ahhh..

Koshiba
2003-11-05, 19:04
Loki_sama.. You're an idiot. And I agree with Ket. Besides, if your family were assassins, I don't think they'd be too happy for you to spread it around. ;P

AG3
2003-11-05, 19:04
Oh' by the way, did you know how LITTLE it costs for them to translate a game? Hell, I'm sure they make a huge ass profit on the games due to the mere fact that they sell them at extortionate pricing levels.

Piracy isn't killing the industry, the industry is killing the industry. How? Pricing

I'd like to post this message written by Dave Endresak, former worker of Peach Princess, and a person who's word on the Bishoujo game industry I trust more than that of a 16 year old who pirate games because his family, who are in law, will keep him out of trouble:

I was wondering if consumers out there had considered any type of simple, rough cost-benefit ratio. In other words, has any of the small handful of English market bishoujo fans, or any of the millions of mainstream videogame fans, considered the cost versus profit from a business perspective using some simple, rough, easy to work with numbers?

Here's an example for mainstream games - they're easier to do because they are already a well-established product. However, the same logic applies no matter what - it's basic business necessity and all consumers should consider such reasoning for any product they desire and enjoy.


It's been reported from various sources that the cost of producing a mainstream type of game today has risen to roughly $8 million. The time frame is roughly 1.5 - 3 years, depending on the title and the game complexity, as well as company health (many projects get cancelled, as everyone probably knows.) I'll point out that roughly $4 million is for actual production - the other $4 million is for promotion, advertising, marketing etc. Also, remember that there are certainly higher costs for specific titles - Enter The Matrix is estimated to have cost $30 million, for example.

Those costs cover all aspects of production - programming, testing, design, manufacturing the final product, etc - as well as the actual sales / marketing... that is, packaging, sales to distributors, etc. Bishoujo gaming is not established, though - the costs for such products has to be more individualized, so to speak. We're only considering mainstream with this example, though, just to get a rough idea.

SRP (Suggested Retail Price) is well established as $50 per game ($49.95, but we'll use simple numbers of course.) Keep in mind that actual wholesale price is NOT $50! Consider the entire system. A product is developed by a company, published by a different company, distributed by another company, and finally retailed by yet another company. All these companies have teams of people who must be paid - it is their livelihood to do the various job levels within the entire system. For example, you do not have a game designer doing the packaging work, nor do you have a programmer doing retail inventory buying. Wholesale price is at least 50% off SRP - if a product is sold in large case quantities to major chains, you could get higher wholesale discounts (maybe up to 60%-70% if the quantities are high enough... for example, Best Buy has perhaps 500 stores, so they buy in large quantity and get better discounts, usually.)

As a side note... keep wholesale price in mind when you start seeing small dealers offering sales of 30%-40% off SRP. Having that big a cut off SRP means that they are making almost no money on the sale. Even 20% is pretty severe for low cost items such as DVDs. Remember that business has lots of hidden costs besides even the employee workforce - there's costs related to taxes, rent, utilities, etc, and these can get very high for business operations, even if consumers never think about them.

So... how many units do you have to sell at $50 each just to break even on a product that costs $5 million to create and offer to the consumer? (I'm using $5 million to make the number simple.) Obviously, you'd have to sell 100,000 units, right? But that's just to break even - you'll be out of business quick if that's all you do. So, you'd better show a profit of 100% of cost - that's at least 200,000 units for a product that costs $5 million to offer. Oops... now we forgot something, but it's an easy correction. Remember that wholesale price versus SRP thing? Well, the costs are actual costs, but the price the developer company is getting is not SRP... so, to even that out, we should double the unit sales - and now, we're talking 400,000 units.

This is why mainstream games are stated to be a success ONLY if they sell in the hundreds of thousands of units. However, out of 700 titles offered annually, only perhaps 70 will see anywhere near that success - most will "fail" (from a business point of view, no matter how anyone feels personally.) We're talking 90% failure... and no one can foresee what will succeed. All companies can do is try to guess - that's why they like licenses of popular titles (movies, comics, etc) as a better odds win.

Now... if you want, consider a product that has no market base established, is a brand new genre of product, unknown, misunderstood, misrepresented, and generally considered part of a "restricted" market in some fashion (adult entertainment is "restricted" , of course... so is liquor, for example.) Granted, you're on a smaller scale all around - that is, consider a product that doesn't have anywhere near the production costs of a mainstream product... say, perhaps 5% of the cost ($250,000). You could look at this closer, as I mentioned... the figure might be quite a bit higher. However, even at $250k, how many units do you have to sell just to break even if the unit cost is still $50? 5,000 units... that's right. For decent profit, better make it 10,000... which goes to 20,000 when considering actual profit versus actual cost (due to wholesale pricing.)

You're supposed to do that with a product that is unknown and generally rejected by the market you're trying to open - that is, there is not enough consumer demand (nowhere near enough!) to even approach such a unit sales figure. You are only able to sell to "mom 'n' pop" stores in single unit type of figures, not by the case of 100 or more at a time, because you do not have any product presence in any chain outlets. In addition, most distributors refuse to carry the product - either it's "porn" and they won't handle (game market) it or it's "too expensive" for their customer base... and for what they perceive it to be, too (adult entertainment market.)


You say the games are expensive, that G-Collections take huge profits. Do you know that these games generally cost 70-80 US Dollars in Japan? So actually, in the country where they sell enough to keep the industry alive, they charge more than they do here. Same as with DVDs and other electronic entertainment.

DarknessTear
2003-11-05, 19:06
Btw.....Half my fam are Assasins......so what?

..

...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

That's great! I think it's more like "Half of my family pities me because I'm a complete retard.".

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:07
I'd like to post this message written by Dave Endresak, former worker of Peach Princess, and a person who's word on the Bishoujo game industry I trust more than that of a 16 year old who pirate games because his family, who are in law, will keep him out of trouble:

I will say it again, that was to iterate that I know the law. How do you think ROM sites manage to stay up? It's the loophole.

Now let's see your MP3 collection, or your Anime collection. ;)

And let's see, speaking to my friends who are in the Game Industry, translating a game is the cheapest part of the entire process.

Hell, any fansub team could do the job better then G Collections.. oh and they could do it for free as well.

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:08
Those costs cover all aspects of production - programming, testing, design, manufacturing the final product, etc - as well as the actual sales / marketing... that is, packaging, sales to distributors, etc. Bishoujo gaming is not established, though - the costs for such products has to be more individualized, so to speak. We're only considering mainstream with this example, though, just to get a rough idea.

They program the game? Let's see, anybody can use a hex editor and change all the text and menus in the game with ease.

They translate it, which anybody who knows enough Japanese can do.

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:10
And are you assuming that all I do is pirate games? Oh' look, we release on archaic game that no one will ever buy again and two people start to bitch and whine.

List me your MP3 collection and I'll make sure that you get the same treatment from the RIAA. ;)

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:12
You say the games are expensive, that G-Collections take huge profits. Do you know that these games generally cost 70-80 US Dollars in Japan? So actually, in the country where they actually sell enough to keep the industry alive, they charge more than they do here. Same as with DVDs and other electronic entertainment.

Do you know how cheaply the companies can get these games? Some games can be translated without any cost to the Japanese company.. even more can be done exceptionally cheaply.

Are you under the delusion that there's actually hard work involved? Hex Editor + Translator = Translated Game.

It's really that simple, oh' and perhaps some graphics knowledge is needed to simply apply an overlay to 1% of the graphics.

People fansub Anime for free, these guys are basically trying to make money off of the same idea.

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 19:13
LoL.........you guys are hella stupid......im sure if I'd said........IM GOD......
you would fucking belive it.....or some sort of idiotic reply on your behalf.
Im happy that for just one stupid post of mine, i made several of you get in a bitchy mood to reply to that. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA........ :fingers:

Segahekui
2003-11-05, 19:14
once again.. no flaming plz :heh: we dont want this to be closed.. Anyways I think he was being stupid about the assassins part. Either way, we al lknow who the real assasin here is
<<<<<<<<<<< *points to seal or recognition* :)
either way i think they cant do anything to ket cuz he wasnt hosting the file, if thats the case then they should sue google because ive got linked to many torrents from that site!

Forse
2003-11-05, 19:16
Well I agree with KEt that almost all of us here have some licensed anime (I know I do). And many of us use mp3 on daily basis and I doubt that Photoshop most of us here use to make sigs is bought either. Getting game from net is something most of us do. So I don't think ket have done anything THAT wrong in MY eyes. I would maybe buy that game if it came to Europe and was in English...

Doddler
2003-11-05, 19:16
How little does it cost to translate the games then? Last I checked the average rate for translators was 10-15 cents a word. A game like kana, that took me 8 hours of solid reading text. And there's more than just one path. And then you need proofing, editing, and marketing. Also, lots of the japanese code isn't very convertable to english, so the programming needs to be changed. The japanese language for example has fixed width lines, no space, and no need for returns. I would argue that its quite a bit more expensive than people think to translate a complete game.

You don't think they lose money because of it? They don't "litterally" lose money like companies do with actual physical merchandise, but it *does* harm the company. In order to turn a profit, they have to recover the cost of the product. When you download the product, you *are* taking something that cost someone else money to produce. No matter how you look at it, it IS stealing. Don't give any grabage about "it hurts no one since I would never use it anyways", it IS stealing. They spent money on it, and you're taking it for free. And if everyone steals thier products, and they can't turn a profit, then they can't continue operating as a company. And thats exactly what's going on.

And the "its ok for nandayo" to distribute it is rediculous. Absolutely rediculous. They own every right to thier software. To say they can't stop someone from distributing it is stupid. Are you not entitled to stop someone from stealing something that is yours? The legal loopholes with "backup" or "educational" use don't work. Its 100% forbidden to copy copywrited material unless solely for backup purposes. I thought it was pretty obvious that putting it up on bit-torrent isn't "backup". Others get away withit because no one is willing to prosecute them. Don't think any judge will buy the "I distributed it so others could back it up" argument. And there's nothing in the law that says you can copy copywritten material for educational purposes. I'd like to see you prove me wrong. And really, what I'd like to see is you trying to fight in court that you put up a 18+ adult only game for download on your webpage for "educational purposes". G-Collections can't fight the people who download it, but they can sure as hell get the person who made it available for download.

Hate me all you want. I don't support rampant stealing of other peoples property; physical or electronic.

Sorry for being angry, I try not to get upset with people online.

Doddler

ps.. seems that there were a few posts from when I read the forum and when I'm making this post. Just keep in mind, I hadn't seen the latest posts when I wrote this.

DarknessTear
2003-11-05, 19:17
LoL.........you guys are hella stupid......im sure if I'd said........IM GOD......
you would fucking belive it.....or some sort of idiotic reply on your behalf.
Im happy that for just one stupid post of mine, i made several of you get in a bitchy mood to reply to that. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA........ :fingers:


I most definately do think that you are stupid enough to believe that. And I wasn't bitchy, I thought it was hilarious, the fact that you said half of your family are assassins. Don't try to cover up your bullshit post, fucktard. You truely are a moron.

And to Ket, sorry, but I don't agree with the whole "Fansubbers do it for free and they're using the same concept." They really do it to get paid because it's a job. I wouldn't mind doing stuff like that for a living. Either way, I'm not against piracy, but I am against the whole "it should be free" thing. Money is required to take care of yourself regardless of what people think.

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:19
LoL.........you guys are hella stupid......im sure if I'd said........IM GOD......
you would fucking belive it.....or some sort of idiotic reply on your behalf.
Im happy that for just one stupid post of mine, i made several of you get in a bitchy mood to reply to that. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA........ :fingers:
Three words, get a life.

If you don't have anything worthwhile to say, stay out of the conversation.

So... how many units do you have to sell at $50 each just to break even on a product that costs $5 million to create and offer to the consumer?

No wonder that company went out of business, does he even know how much it costs to create a game? He must be seriously retarded.

By the way, creating Bishoujo games are the cheapest form of game available. - Sometimes it doesn't even make it to five figures in terms of production.

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:23
DT, I was talking about the sense in which groups such as AnimeOne, Lunar and Onigiri take time out of their lives to sub Anime.

I'm not saying it should be free, I'm saying it shouldn't be so extortionate.

And where did you check that rate for translators? Most translators are paid a fixed sum in this day and age.

Stop thinking back to pre-historic times. ;)

I've already got a response from G Collections, I took it down because they asked nicely. They're not going to do a thing and more then likely wouldn't have anyway.

Not because some dipshit like you thinks he's God because he emailed somebody.

Doddler, give me a list of your Anime and MP3's collection please. I'm sure the RIAA would like me to do what you did. :)

AG3
2003-11-05, 19:24
People fansub Anime for free, these guys are basically trying to make money off of the same idea


Yes, it's called making a living. Basically, every person on this planet can do his or her profession for free, as long as everyone else does. So why aren't they?

And there is a real difference between translating a 400-500 line anime episode and translating a 120K-150K line game. Because Japanese games are designed specifically for the Japanese operating system, not only the text needs to be translated, but also a lot of the code must be changed to work on American/European operating systems.

But hey, since translating these games are so easy, why aren't there any "fansubbers" for these games? They could always distribute them "for backup purposes" to people who have bought the Japanese originals. Just like you offer Kana for backup purposes. Yeah right...

And your argument lacks any kind of logic what so ever! If they make such a huge ass profit, and if it takes so little work, they should be pumping out those translations like there was no tomorrow. So... Why aren't they? Why aren't anyone else?

*Edit*
Oh, sorry, I guess that should be "offered".

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:26
AG3, there are lots of groups that translates games for free.

It's not my fault that they have no business sense, they're not making much business because of the prices that they charge.

I'm not saying that it should be free, I'm saying that the price shouldn't be so extortionate.

Flash_Squirrel
2003-11-05, 19:30
But hey, since translating these games are so easy, why aren't there any "fansubbers" for these games?


Kanon translation patch for the japanese game. :)

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 19:30
And you can fansub a game and distribute it just plain and simple, see the Japanese aren't so uptight. ^_^

Oh', and how do you think old SNES Rom's were translated? There was alot more text back in those games. ;)

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 19:39
Well if Ket is right about something, that is......we ALL have downloaded atleast 1 licensed anime.....so no one can be all BS about it......cuss its true!
It is also true that companies DO loose profit from ppl that pirate the game.

Ket.....lets say, one of your fam members (the LAW HALF) writes a book, and they sell it out and stuff...the price is 30 bucks (just a damm example). But lets say, some one really liked the book, and well...decided to scan it, copy it or whatever, than upload it on a page so ppl can READ it or even Download it. Wouldnt that be fucked up? other ppl could find that and just print it......even if the webmaster of that page would of said "THIS DONE ONLY, FOR OWNERS OF THE BOOK" some one can just say....Hey the page was done so in case some one lost there book, or didnt take it on a trip, can just print it out and read where they left off. Still dont tell me that the original author would not loose money.
Same for the games dammit.....they DO LOOSE profit out of ppl who pirate the game!! Time = Money.......no one is just gonna translate a game for free just like that, there is always something in between.

AG3
2003-11-05, 19:40
AG3, there are lots of groups that translates games for free.

It's not my fault that they have no business sense, they're not making much business because of the prices that they charge.

I'm not saying that it should be free, I'm saying that the price shouldn't be so extortionate.

What groups? Where? I'm not talking about ROM translating groups here, but those translating Japanese Bishoujo games for PC. I know there is someone translating Kanon, but I think that patch has been at 25% completion for ages. I'd love to download "fansubbed" patches for these games, since I can buy the originals from Japan and get more accurate translations than G-Collections at the same time (never liked their habit of dropping honorifics) , without waiting for years for them to release their games. But if these patches are in such an abundant supply, they are rather silent about it...

And $50 is expensive for a computer game? That's actually normal price for a computer game in Norway, a lot of games cost more. And how on earth does the price they charge for the product they have worked on justify you giving it away for free?

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 19:44
What groups? Where? I'm not talking about ROM translating groups here, but those translating Japanese Bishoujo games for PC. I know there is someone translating Kanon, but I think that patch has been at 25% completion for ages. I'd love to download "fansubbed" patches for these games, since I can buy the originals from Japan and get more accurate translations than G-Collections at the same time (never liked their habit of dropping honorifics) , without waiting for years for them to release their games. But if these patches are in such an abundant supply, they are rather silent about it...

And $50 is expensive for a computer game? That's actually normal price for a computer game in Norway, a lot of games cost more. And how on earth does the price they charge for the product they have worked on justify you giving it away for free?

OMG ppl......tell me if 50$ is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY to much for the PC Bishoujo game!!! damm there are things way more expensive and stupid at times, but you guys are ok with that?! but noooooooooooooo, the game is too much......im gonna look for some one that pirates it! $%&%^*&^*( :frustrated:

Loki_Sama
2003-11-05, 19:47
The game cost many ppl........time...effort, for just any one else pirate it.

Im sure u all know, that if a game sales good, most companies give out a % to there fellow employees......for the sale of the game! so if the game doesnt sale much....the employees wont get more %.........if it does......than there all happy :)

Doddler
2003-11-05, 19:58
By abundant translation projects you mean a single translation project for hte most widely known bishoujo game ever made. :P And he's been working on the project for almost a year and a half, and is only at 25%.

And arguing $50 is too much for a game... You must not buy alot of games, do you? Most games are about the same price, sometimes even more expensive. And you know what... quite often there's games on the shelf here that arn't half as entertaining as b-games.

Also, if you look around, you can find g-collections games for $40. You just have to look.

Bah, works over, no point arguing, I'm outta here :)

Doddler

Ketsu-Kun
2003-11-05, 20:25
FYI, I buy lots of stuff.

An average of 3 - 4 Anime DVD's per week, sometimes I buy them just to make up for the unlicensed Anime that I download.

When it comes to buying games, I buy alot of games.

And you know full well that the Games industry is overpriced. But let's even say that $50 is the average price, which it is.

Take Final Fantasy X and compare it to Kana Little Sister.

Which do you think cost more to make?

FFX by a hundred fold at LEAST.

Now if we use AG3's argument of how much it costs to make a game and apply it in reverse I should be able to buy Kana for 50 cents. ;)

Although I don't want that. I'm saying $25 would be a more reasonable price, and then I would buy it.

Jump
2003-11-05, 22:51
Except, there's a problem with your logic. FFX costs the same, and took more money to make, that's for certain. However, FFX also has a millionfold the number of fans compared to Kana.

Personally, I pirated Kana because it was my first H-Game. Or can I really even call it that? It was too depressing for me to feel anything related to the Hentai content. But I did it because I didn't think H-Games were any good. Afterwards, after seeing how impressive it is, I paid the 50 bucks for it.

But I probably won't download another H-Game or buy one. Kana made me feel like shit for a long time, and I still feel bad when I think about it. I am fully aware that not many games are that well-made or depressing, but god damn.

Doddler
2003-11-06, 00:51
Another victom of Kana's depressing story. ^_^

Not many of them are quite as depressing as kana though. But I'm a sucker for sad stories :). Kanon was also a huge kicker (far more so than the series was).

Doddler

Vulkar
2003-11-06, 01:03
And there's nothing in the law that says you can copy copywritten material for educational purposes. I'd like to see you prove me wrong.
ok. :)

Sorry, had to mention/show this because what you wrote here didn't quite sit right with me. I assumed we were discussing American copyright law and went to the copyright website. Yes, you can copy copywritten material for educational purposes (though I agree H games are hardly educational material) and there are limitations.
http://www.uploadit.org/files2/061103-fairuse.jpg

also from the copyright office faq:

How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians.

This was there too and I found it amusing so I included it.

How do I protect my sighting of Elvis?
Copyright law does not protect sightings. However, copyright law will protect your photo (or other depiction) of your sighting of Elvis. Just send it to us with a Form VA application and the $30 filing fee. No one can lawfully use your photo of your sighting, although someone else may file his own photo of his sighting. Copyright law protects the original photograph, not the subject of the photograph.
:)

Also, I found this page fairly useful http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html . However, the writing on fair use is quite enormous since there is no clear concise definition of what is fair of not and it often.

Doddler
2003-11-06, 03:37
Hehe, well, I guess you proved me wrong. I never really did look much into it. I don't even live in america, so I'm not to well versed in the law there. Same probably goes here though.

But I'm sure you know as well as I do that standing behind the "educational" use of copying won't get you anywhere. These *are* adult video games were talking about. :D


Doddler

GipFace
2003-11-06, 03:43
I will say it again, that was to iterate that I know the law. How do you think ROM sites manage to stay up? It's the loophole.

Wrong. There are much fewer ROM sites out there than there were five years ago. All the once-big sites (such as Cherryroms, Plasticman, SNESX) were shut down (or crippled) due to legal pressure. They used to be the place for week-old game releases. The ROM community has now had to resort to newsgroups, IRC, and now BT propagation in order to get their warez out. Or even worse, 0-day GeoCities accounts. Even HOTU, a highly-regarded abandonware site, has had its run-in with the law.

The only reason why some HTTP ROM sites are still up is because they will never generate the traffic that the big boys brought in. Besides, when I browse around, most of them contain dead links anyway.

But you don't know that ... you were 10 when those sites were around.

And let's see, speaking to my friends who are in the Game Industry, translating a game is the cheapest part of the entire process.

I hate it when people talk like this. Why don't tell us who your friends are now, with appropriate contact info? I'm sure they'll give you a referral if you actually know them, and I'll be more than glad to have a nice conversation. Otherwise, anyone can see your BS from a mile away.

They program the game? Let's see, anybody can use a hex editor and change all the text and menus in the game with ease.

Are you under the delusion that there's actually hard work involved? Hex Editor + Translator = Translated Game.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Japanese bishoujo games are designed to run on W98j/WMEj or Win2K/XP with Japanese support on. Even if you used a hex editor, they wouldn't even run. In fact, most of today's bishoujo games won't even install if you don't have the OS requirements. Do you think a Japanese game can just simply run on an English OS?

You can't use a hex editor to modify actual executable code. Disassembling is not that easy; you'll need the original source code from the designers, and then you need to spend time tweaking it so that it runs on a 'foreign' OS. All that takes time and money.

They translate it, which anybody who knows enough Japanese can do.

You seem to think translating a bishoujo game is as simple as translating anime. My friend and I have attempted to translate just 4% of a 2002 average-length bishoujo game called Wind. In the end, our script turned out to be as long as SIX average 25-minute anime scripts (about 100k). When you take that ratio into account, an average-length bishoujo game has about 150 'episodes' worth of text. Another thing we learned is that editing a bishoujo game is much harder than editing an script for a fansub. The vocabulary is upgraded from elementary to high-school level, and one little slip-up can be hidden within thousands of lines of text.

Now you have to take the time and effort to go through all of that AND edit it for clarity and grammar. Now you have to sell all that work into one $50 chunk, and in the end, you have less than ten thousand copies sold. Considering that a bishoujo game has enough TL work to cover 3 entire anime series, $50 isn't so bad after all, eh? Or do you want them to work like slaves? Wait ... it is already slave labor.

Niji no Kanata Ni (Over the Rainbow) spans 4 CDs and has over TEN MILLION characters (they actually advertise this) with the script being about four times as long as Wind. That game will sadly have no chance of being translated because it is simply too long. There is the equivalent of 600 'episodes' of text to go through. But no ... you think it's just a piece of cake to translate games like these.

Do you know how cheaply the companies can get these games? Some games can be translated without any cost to the Japanese company.. even more can be done exceptionally cheaply.

Big deal. Read above for how the localizers slave for your appreciation.

It's really that simple, oh' and perhaps some graphics knowledge is needed to simply apply an overlay to 1% of the graphics.

This takes time, which also means money. Now you have to have a graphic designer on top of the translator and the coder. Just to let you know, HCG can take up to 50% of the total CG in a bishoujo game.

People fansub Anime for free, these guys are basically trying to make money off of the same idea.
Hell, any fansub team could do the job better then G Collections.. oh and they could do it for free as well.

Let's put this into retrospect, shall we?

When I checked on anidb.net, A-Keep has 428 releases. This is less than the ~600 'episodes' of text that Niji No Kanata Ni has. Whoops!

If a huge group like A-Keep pooled all their TL talent over the past year, they would have subbed a grand total of THREE GAMES. G-Collections does one game per month. If you think G-Collections is lazy, you are delirious.

Why does everyone fansub nowadays? Because all the tools are available. However, when doing a bishoujo game, not everyone knows how to use a hex editor. Not everyone can overlay explicit art. Not everyone can code. However, all fansub positions minus TL can be learned in a week. You can't say that about the above tasks I mentioned.

Also keep in mind the overwhelming number of fansub comparison topics. If a fansub group had to riffle through all that text on a deadline, they would make mistakes too. I'd say that G-Collection's quality is on a much higher scale than JAST was a couple of years ago.

Oh' did I forget to mention if G-Collections had tried to take legal action against me, they would have failed miserably.
B) Half my family is in law.

This has nothing to do with the topic; stop trying to inflate your ego. Piracy is impacting the localization industry greatly because the companies will get no more sales after the first month. Why? Because it will have been pirated. However, I'd say two other things are impacting this industry ... the assumption that bishoujo games are all about the H and because it's tough as nails to actually localize one.

All in all, you are totally ignorant on this matter and are just making assumptions. Good day.

rayearth
2003-11-06, 08:22
Another victom of Kana's depressing story. ^_^

Not many of them are quite as depressing as kana though. But I'm a sucker for sad stories :). Kanon was also a huge kicker (far more so than the series was).

Doddler

Umm, only Makoto's story really had a tragic end (the rest had a happy ending of some sort - I'm referring to the game endings). If you want more tragedy, for go AIR.

bluemist
2003-11-06, 10:31
I want to ask, why do American H-game companies sometimes get and release no-name crappy H-games? Are they really in it for the H in H-game? I'd prefer having them release those other games that are very good or have anime counterparts be translated. I think they would sell more that way...

Some bishoujo games which have anime counterparts, and ones which I heard were good include:

AIR
Comic Party
Da Capo
Kanon
Kimi ga Nozomu Eien
One
Pia Carrot series
To Heart
Tsukihime

... and yet not one of them is being translated into English yet.

GipFace
2003-11-06, 10:53
... and yet not one of them is being translated into English yet.

Because most of the games you have listed fall under the category of bishoujo games called "Visual Novels", which are essentially electronic choose-your-own-adventures with few branching options. They also have an obscene amount of text compared to some of G-Collection's other games.

One more thing to consider is that games are licensed on a company basis. G-Collection's main partners right now are D.O., ZyX, and Trabulence. D.O. is the only company of the three that pumps out decent visual novels (such as Kana and Crescendo). Perhaps licensing a bishoujo game isn't as easy as it sounds, huh?

If those do get TLed, they won't make much more anyway because the pirate ship is just around the corner.

And yes ... they're in it for the H. The funny part is how Kana is pretty much the #1 discussed game on their message boards. Most people still think that G-Collection's selection right now is sub-par, but hope that things will turn out for the better.

AG3
2003-11-06, 10:59
I want to ask, why do American H-game companies sometimes get and release no-name crappy H-games? Are they really in it for the H in H-game? I'd prefer having them release those other games that are very good or have anime counterparts be translated. I think they would sell more that way...

Some bishoujo games which have anime counterparts, and ones which I heard were good include:

AIR
Comic Party
Da Capo
Kanon
Kimi ga Nozomu Eien
One
Pia Carrot series
To Heart
Tsukihime

... and yet not one of them is being translated into English yet.

bluemist, there are actually a lot of people who buy these games for the H content. I personally prefer the more romantic Bishoujo games, I would even buy them if they had no H-content at all, if only they were translated. I prefer them with the sex though, because it adds a certain edge to the story, it works well as a conclusion of the relationship that the characters have been building up. But it works less well as a dish that is served every 3 minutes, IMO.

Anyway, the more fetish-filled games actually sell quite well, maybe even as much, or more, than the "light" versions. I can't really tell, because I don't have specific numbers to offer, but these games are popular too.

The Bishoujo game market is limited, and the people translating these games have to cater more than just one group's needs. And besides, it's not really fair to say "I don't like games with much hentai, they shouldn't be translated as much", since those who like that kind of thing surely appreciate getting those games as much as I do mine, and have as much right to get it as I do too.

Many games like those you mentioned aren't translated because the original creators don't have any interest in seeing them being translated. The market here is so small, the profits likewise, that there is little money to be made through licensing. If more people bought instead of pirating, and if it was as easily accesible as every violent game is, they would sell tons of them, and thus more would get translated.

Lambda
2003-11-06, 12:33
Is there any real evidence for this?

Yes. 4 of the 6 translation companies have gone out of business, and one of them, Peach Princess, seems to have stopped taking on new titles. I know people who work for PP, and talked to the people at G-Collections about it.

Based on actual sales numbers... and how much you can find for download on the net (like the kana bit torrent), I'd say a good 20, even 30 (and possibly higher) to 1 ratio of people who play or own pirated copies of these games compared to legit.

In other words, no, not really. If 4 of the 6 translation companies have gone out of business, it means the industry is dying. It doesn't give any clues as to what's causing it. Relatively huge numbers of downloads certainly indicate that it is possible that illegal downloading is doing it, but it's not evidence that that is definitely due to this. Real evidence would have to demonstrate that a substantial number of these downloaders would have bought the game if they were unable to download it for free, enough to significantly outweigh the contributions of those who discovered the genre/individual games through this medium and started buying them.

No matter how you look at it, it IS stealing.

*Sigh.* No it isn't. Stealing entails directly removing, not duplicating, something of value. What illegal downloading does is affect (sometimes positively, the frequency of this is a difficult question) the ability of the company to profit from the monopoly on the product that they're legally entitled to due to creating it, (or getting a license from the creators to that effect), which is an entirely different matter.

By the way, I'm not trying to spread a "lets all go downloading and not buy anything" message, it's just that entities such as the RIAA and MPAA are causing a lot of erosion of our fundamental rights, many only tangentially connected to the subject, and using unsubstantiated claims and falsehoods like the above to do so, which is why I'm quite sensitive to making sure people are able to see through them.

Lambda
2003-11-06, 13:12
Since the original purpose of this thread is dying due to a lack of opposition, I think I'll play devil's advocate a bit.

DISCLAIMER: I'm writing this because I think it will be interesting, not because I necessarily believe it.

So, gunning down a load of people in the street is worse than going around having sex with loads of people is it? Well, yes, I don't think anyone can really disagree with that. But that's not what we're comparing. We're comparing playing a game in which you gun down a load of people in the street to playing a game in which you go around having sex with loads of people. The degree to which this is bad is not a function of what happens in the game, it's a function of how it translates into reality. Is the first going to affect your gunning-people-down behaviour? Well, no, not unless you're so imbalanced that something like that is bound to happen anyway. Is the second going to affect your sexual behaviour? Well, actually that's a lot more difficult to say.

You see, the key to the comparison between sex and violence is that sexual attitudes are far more . . . fragile. And subtle. With violence, it's quite easy to see that in most cases, (certainly those that commonly crop up in the computer games which people frequently worry about), violence is clearly wrong. Disassociating the violence you perform in front of your computer with violence you might perform in the real world is trivially easy. Sex is completely different. The reasons why sex could be wrong in many cases are highly non-obvious, and they depend enormously on one's attitude. The intense pleasure that's (often) involved makes it a necessarily seductive idea. Even subtle nuances that one can pick up from a variety of sources can completely change attitudes in some cases. And it is important. Sex can be the ultimate expression of love, and love and human bonding are what hold families, even societies together. Anything that weakens the ability of people to do this, anything that hastens the spread of STDs is unequivocally bad. And the point is that getting sexual pleasure from many of these things could well actually have these effects, whilst fantasy violence is highly unlikely to do anything at all.

The way we relate to those we love is the most important and fragile part of human nature, and it mustn't be tampered with.

How am I doing then? ;)

AG3
2003-11-06, 13:23
Whatever, I just like sex. :)

Some people argue that a lot of these games have a great educational value when it comes to sexual techniques and behavior. I don't know if I agree, since the "learning" could be subconscious, not something you consider consciously at the time of... use, so to speak.

As for the rest of your post, I think you are making this way to difficult for a lot of people :) . Maybe I would have grasped it better if English was my native language, but it isn't, and I find myself having a hard time understanding just what you are trying to say.

Doddler
2003-11-06, 15:40
I'm going to do some quoting.

I first looked up software piracy.

"See Software Theft"

Then, I took a look at software theft. I'll let this do the talking. I'll bold parts that I find to be important to this discussion.

"software theft



<legal> The unauthorised duplication and/or use of computer software. This usually means unauthorised copying, either by individuals for use by themselves or their friends or, less commonly, by companies who then sell the illegal copies to users. Many kinds of software protection have been invented to try to reduce software theft but, with sufficient effort it is always possible to bypass or "crack" the protection, and software protection is often annoying for legitimate users.

Software theft was estimated for 1994 to have cost $15 billion in worldwide lost revenues to software publishers. It is a serious offence under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, which states that "The owner of the copyright has the exclusive right to copy the work.".

It is estimated that European software houses alone lose $6 billion per year through the unlawful copying and distribution of software, with much of this loss being through business users rather than "basement hackers". One Italian pirating operation employed over 100 staff and had a turnover of $10m.

It is illegal to: 1. Copy or distribute software or its documentation without the permission or licence of the copyright owner. 2. Run purchased software on two or more computers simultaneously unless the licence specifically allows it. 3. Knowingly or unknowingly allow, encourage or pressure employees to make or use illegal copies sources within the organisation. 4. Infringe laws against unauthorised software copying because a superior, colleague or friend compels or requests it. 5. Loan software in order that a copy be made of it.

When software is upgraded it is generally the case that the licence accompanying the new version revokes the old version. This means that it is illegal to run both the old and new versions as only the new version is licensed.

Both individuals and companies may be convicted of piracy offences. Officers of a company are also liable to conviction if the offences were carried out by the company with their consent. On conviction, the guilty party can face imprisonment for up to two years (five in USA), an unlimited fine or both as well as being sued for copyright infringement (with no limit) by the copyright owner.

Some people mistakenly think that, because it is so easy to make illegal copies of software, that it is less wrong than, say, stealing it from a shop. In fact, both actions deprive software producers of the income they need to continue their business and develop their products.

Software theft should be reported to the Federation Against Software Theft (FAST)."

And definatly, I agree with what GipFace has to say too. You said it better than I ever could have.

Doddler

zalas
2003-11-06, 19:08
I will say it again, that was to iterate that I know the law. How do you think ROM sites manage to stay up? It's the loophole.

Wrong. There are much fewer ROM sites out there than there were five years ago. All the once-big sites (such as Cherryroms, Plasticman, SNESX) were shut down (or crippled) due to legal pressure. They used to be the place for week-old game releases. The ROM community has now had to resort to newsgroups, IRC, and now BT propagation in order to get their warez out. Or even worse, 0-day GeoCities accounts. Even HOTU, a highly-regarded abandonware site, has had its run-in with the law.

The only reason why some HTTP ROM sites are still up is because they will never generate the traffic that the big boys brought in. Besides, when I browse around, most of them contain dead links anyway.


Plus the fact that a lot of the game translations going on (into English at least, for even decently old systems) will only release *patches* to the games, and not the real games.

There are illegal warez sites out there, but they are most likely in Russia or China, where it's harder to sue people, and find the sites even. (How many software producers or people in production of software or even just their lawyers actually know Chinese or Russian?)


And let's see, speaking to my friends who are in the Game Industry, translating a game is the cheapest part of the entire process.

I hate it when people talk like this. Why don't tell us who your friends are now, with appropriate contact info? I'm sure they'll give you a referral if you actually know them, and I'll be more than glad to have a nice conversation. Otherwise, anyone can see your BS from a mile away.

Actually, I think the translation part may not be the most expensive part and may very well be the cheapest part compared to the entire budget. However, "cheap" in terms of a $8 million budget is still sufficiently expensive, and the guy from G-Collections did state a sample budget of $250,000 compared to the $8 million.


They program the game? Let's see, anybody can use a hex editor and change all the text and menus in the game with ease.

Are you under the delusion that there's actually hard work involved? Hex Editor + Translator = Translated Game.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Japanese bishoujo games are designed to run on W98j/WMEj or Win2K/XP with Japanese support on. Even if you used a hex editor, they wouldn't even run. In fact, most of today's bishoujo games won't even install if you don't have the OS requirements. Do you think a Japanese game can just simply run on an English OS?

You can't use a hex editor to modify actual executable code. Disassembling is not that easy; you'll need the original source code from the designers, and then you need to spend time tweaking it so that it runs on a 'foreign' OS. All that takes time and money.

Technically they don't need the original source code to do the modifications necessary for it to run on a non-windows computer. However, that's adding in a lot of work, and you'd have to hire a reverser, since normally programmers won't have that skill set. Besides, a lot of reversers are working for warez groups or working for security firms, so it's not likely you can get one for cheap.


They translate it, which anybody who knows enough Japanese can do.
<snip>
Another thing we learned is that editing a bishoujo game is much harder than editing an script for a fansub. The vocabulary is upgraded from elementary to high-school level, and one little slip-up can be hidden within thousands of lines of text.
<snip>
Niji no Kanata Ni (Over the Rainbow) spans 4 CDs and has over TEN MILLION characters (they actually advertise this) with the script being about four times as long as Wind. That game will sadly have no chance of being translated because it is simply too long. There is the equivalent of 600 'episodes' of text to go through. But no ... you think it's just a piece of cake to translate games like these.

Oh wow, 10 million characters is a LOT. I guess that's definitely out :D (and the amg adventure game was only 200,000 ^^;)
Oh and not only is the reading level increased, but they add in a lot of things that are really not that very easily translatable. For example, many puns in Japanese just aren't translatable directly, and it takes a lot of time and extra effort to do those.


People fansub Anime for free, these guys are basically trying to make money off of the same idea.
Hell, any fansub team could do the job better then G Collections.. oh and they could do it for free as well.

Let's put this into retrospect, shall we?

When I checked on anidb.net, A-Keep has 428 releases. This is less than the ~600 'episodes' of text that Niji No Kanata Ni has. Whoops!

If a huge group like A-Keep pooled all their TL talent over the past year, they would have subbed a grand total of THREE GAMES. G-Collections does one game per month. If you think G-Collections is lazy, you are delirious.


Plus the fact of the difficulty of translations. This is why fansub translators don't randomnly tackle game translations. Otherwise you'd see a LOT more game translation projects since there's so many fansub groups. Besides, I doubt many fansub translators are actually on par with professional game/novel translators. At the very least, it's a different skill set. Translators of fansubs translate from audio and translators of games and novels translate from text.

rayearth
2003-11-06, 22:55
Translators of fansubs translate from audio and translators of games and novels translate from text.

Just wanted to point out translating from text is a LOT easier than translating from audio. The problems with audio are when things are spoken quickly or when the person speaking doesn't speak clearly (or just plain poor recording). I've been doing some translating a few years ago when filesizes over 100MB were still considered too big. Audio quality was one of things you could lower for the viewers (who know little to no Japanese hence meaning not much of a difference), but would mean hell for a translator ~_~

Whereas translating from text, unless you don't have the original script or a scanned one, there is really no chance you could slip on the translation unless you don't do a good job yourself :P Now, I'm not saying translating game scripts are easy (just the sheer size kills), just that from my point of view, translating from text is easier than translating from audio :P

Vulkar
2003-11-06, 23:43
This is an add-on to Doddler's post:

These are excerpts from Chapter Twelve of the painful to read Copyright Law of the United States. I took out the boring head spinning parts and the boiled it down to these two sentences:


"(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures. ? (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title."

--(my comment)i.e. All those cracks and such which often come with H-games you download are not ok. (like I need to say this) The passwords and keycodes for software are part of technological measures to control access to copyrighted games. I suppose one could argue fansubbing games also does this because it changes the electronic measures, Japanese language coded into the game, to make it distributable to an unintended group, English speaking population. Also, you are circumventing the intended distribution method of the copyright holder by downloading and/or converting it to a downloadable form, yes? Ideally these H-games are supposed to be distributed on cd-rom. That is another technological security measure. As these is a limited amount of manufactured cd-roms, there (in an ideal world) would be a limited amount of copyrighted material.

No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that ?

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


Full text of Chapter twelve is available here (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap12.html)

---no real comment about this part. Self-explanatory.

This next part is excerpted from the famous (or infamous depending on your views) Digital Millenium Copyright Act. This is from the summary portion. If you wish to view the entire thing feel free to look it up.

http://www.uploadit.org/files2/071103-millen.jpg

Ok, I just wanted to add this to show that persons who knowingly have links to copyrighted material (for example H games) are in fact liable to legal action. The above exceptions are mentioned. Someone mentioned humorously the idea of google being sued. Well, I doubt google is aware of the contents of the majority of it's links. However, certain web organization upon notification of a cease and desist type nature would be a suitable target for lawsuits.


Ok, can we stop arguing over whether or not downloading H games we haven't payed for is illegal? So, some may not consider it unethical but it's definitely a violation of a copyright owners rights and leaves us open, if discovered to civil action. (not that in most cases that'll happen) Let's accept that and say, "yes, I know I'm breaking the law by downloading this for free" and not claim to be exercising some guaranteed right.

Loki_Sama
2003-11-07, 15:52
Vulkar.......yeah think ur right.........im guilty too!!!!!!!!! :( what can i do now to make up for my sins?!!!!! LoL i know.......i can buy the DVD's ^_^

Lambda
2003-11-07, 18:18
The unauthorised duplication and/or use of computer software. This usually means unauthorised copying, either by individuals for use by themselves or their friends or, less commonly, by companies who then sell the illegal copies to users.

Or those companies may simply make modifications to the software but refuse to make the new source code freely available as the license demands.

One Italian pirating operation employed over 100 staff and had a turnover of $10m.

Another "pirating operation" is so big it's currently sueing IBM. (In order to increase the value of its stock.)

It is illegal to: . . . 5. Loan software in order that a copy be made of it.

This isn't correct. Or more precisely, it's only correct under certain conditions, which are that the software is distributed under conditions that prohibit such things. There's plenty of software for which this is perfectly legitimate. (Sometimes under certain conditions, like being willing to pass on the source code.)

In fact, both actions deprive software producers of the income they need to continue their business and develop their products.

Sometimes. In some (at least individual) cases, illegal copying can help with that income.

daedalus6
2003-11-18, 07:09
This thread this time around really lacks motivation. The last time, it started off with a whole bunch of bashing and people being disgusted... The argument was why not all these games are bad. Unfortunately we don't have that going for us this time. Still, I'd like to see some moral discussions come from this chat again like last time.

Doddler

Because you ask it you got it!

seriously...
:dots:


This thread has taken a step to wrong direction while I was away. So I will have to say this so there will be no misundestanding.
:nono:
-I do not agree with you AG3!
If I could undeline this somehow! I do think killing in videogames is more acceptable than having sex with minors or relatives. And I think thats just the way it is!
At the moment they are thinking about passing a law here at my country which would probhit all pedofil material (drawn or not) to ILLEGAL so. I can kiss goodbye to Dragonball Z etc... well not really but If I order it though post and somebody at customs sees it.. They will confiscate it!

Although I do not think myself that Dragonball z is pedofilic manga. It cant be helped if the law is accepted.


In anycase It is just wrong to think that these games dont have effect on us. Im sure that if GTA can make "us" kill.. (us means that Gta can make some of us kill well I dont know abou that ...but i really want to know how this lawsuit goes) IM sure that bishoujo games (As well as any normal porn) will make "us" look women like objects.

My friend once suggested an idea that they shouldnt sell tv's to mentally challenged people. And they shouldnt be allowed to go to library. So that they wont get these "Crazy" ideas and go do something REALLY stupid. (like go kill people on the streets and say gta made me do it! :naughty: )

I really dont want to go this far but its a funny idea.

Anyway I dont want to be depressed so should I just stop playing Kana? I m at the beginning and I dont feel depressed yet!

AG3
2003-11-18, 12:14
-I do not agree with you AG3!
If I could undeline this somehow! I do think killing in videogames is more acceptable than having sex with minors or relatives. And I think thats just the way it is!

I never asked you to agree with me. I wanted you to understand and respect that a lot of people, me included, think the opposite. Why a game about two people who love each other and have sex is somehow wrong (doesn't matter if they are 16 or 18), whereas a game about killing innocent people isn't, is beyond my ability to comprehend.

As difficult (or rather, impossible) as it is for me to agree with your view, I understand why you have it, and I'm not about to flame you or look down on you for it. But I'd ask for the same tolerance in return.


In anycase It is just wrong to think that these games dont have effect on us. Im sure that if GTA can make "us" kill.. (us means that Gta can make some of us kill well I dont know abou that ...but i really want to know how this lawsuit goes) IM sure that bishoujo games (As well as any normal porn) will make "us" look women like objects

Well, I've been playing violent games since 1985, and I haven't killed anyone yet. I kicked my big sister in the leg once back in '92... Could be those effects you were talking about.

As for looking on women like objects... I don't think I do. I haven't played Bishoujo games as long as I've played violent games, but still....

Seriously, if games affected people half as much as you seem to portrait, we'd have 3 million GTA related shootings across the globe already. And most people I know (from schools etc) who have a view of women as objects don't even know what a Bishoujo game is.

People are bastards whether or not they they play games. World War I & II came before GTA, you know. And the Vikings raped women back in the good old days of 968 AD, long before the first Bishoujo game came out.



Anyway I dont want to be depressed so should I just stop playing Kana? I m at the beginning and I dont feel depressed yet!

That will probably come later. And don't worry about the game making you look at women like objects, the only side effect this game has is giving you an overwhelming willingness to donate your kidneys.

daedalus6
2003-11-19, 05:31
I never asked you to agree with me. I wanted you to understand and respect that a lot of people, me included, think the opposite.
As difficult (or rather, impossible) as it is for me to agree with your view, I understand why you have it, and I'm not about to flame you or look down on you for it. But I'd ask for the same tolerance in return.



Well, I've been playing violent games since 1985, and I haven't killed anyone yet. I kicked my big sister in the leg once back in '92... Could be those effects you were talking about.

As for looking on women like objects... I don't think I do. I haven't played Bishoujo games as long as I've played violent games, but still....

Seriously, if games affected people half as much as you seem to portrait, we'd have 3 million GTA related shootings across the globe already. And most people I know (from schools etc) who have a view of women as objects don't even know what a Bishoujo game is.

People are bastards whether or not they they play games. World War I & II came before GTA, you know. And the Vikings raped women back in the good old days of 968 AD, long before the first Bishoujo game came out.




That will probably come later. And don't worry about the game making you look at women like objects, the only side effect this game has is giving you an overwhelming willingness to donate your kidneys.

That kidney thing is even WORST!!! :nono: (joke) but anyhow. I dig your point, I didnt mean that everyone who play gta3 go and gun down people. Of course not BUT even if its some small number of individuals who do this I think its still serious problem in our society.

Ofcourse you are right! people did kill and rape long before the dawn of computer/animated/tv violence or BISHOUJO games. But really what does that prove? Does that prove that humans have some tendency to kill/rape/harm other people? I dont know! But I DO know that it certainly does not mean that because of that nobody can get crazy ideas from computer games or movies. For crying out loud just yesterday i read about killing in our newspaper a small girl had seen halloween movie and butchered his brother in the same way. Because I study psychology I CANT say that that movie or tv or games had a definite impact on the killing! BUT with all these similiar cases (And lot of these to come) we all must face a this terrible dilemma. ITs allmost impossible to researsh how much affect does videogames and movies have on people. THATS why they dont sell bishoujo gamers or gta3 for underaged. It is infact for their own safety. (and for safety of others) I searched the internet and I am not 100% sure but i think similiar problem was at 1950 or so in the USA when The comic became popular etc. Almost every criminal argued that they had read comics for a long time and thats the reason they did those horrible things. Im not sure how they coped with this problem back then but I will have to search more information about this.
Ofcourse it is true that mentally challenged might find reason for dooing these things in normal books too, but thats more rare now a days? i think mostly because in some strange way we just understand that that would be completely nuts... some of us still have some problems understanding that it is excatly the same with tv/computer or videogames.

And what comes to your argue about "Why a game about two people who love each other and have sex is somehow wrong (doesn't matter if they are 16 or 18), whereas a game about killing innocent people isn't, is beyond my ability to comprehend."

What do you say about 2 15 years old dooing the thing... what about 2 14 year olds... Better yet lets make some six years olds do the stuff and of course there is mutual consent!

Where do you draw a line? I believe that you do not DRAW a line. and at the end of the day We cant know who is the pedofil producing this stuff... It could be that someone just found an awsome loop in the justice system or something. I say its sick. btw. That lollicon is more sick more i have reasearched abou it. That paste from the game booklet you had here was as truthful as well lets say any other propaganda. I even saw a topic here at animesuki forum which told that there has been a vending machine that sold schoolgilr underwear! (is that sick or what?) and that there (as far as i know) still are shops in JApan that sell those things. IF little girl goes there and takes his panties off its little more money...and if she provides a picture its double the money! (Honestly what do you think people do with the panties) there were even sickker things at the website that as far as i know was writen fact based in events at 93 but it was updated 2000... anyway I say I BLAME LOLLICON! :upset: Its the sick intrest in little girls (which is more popular in Japan than here?) that keeps stores like that running!?

[edit: I just wanted some of my senteces to make some sense:D]
[edit2: Wow I just take 1 chapter out of this post. If you have good arguments I might come and add it :D no seriously I will just make a new post.]

AG3
2003-11-19, 10:22
daedalus6, you're ranting again...

What do you say about 2 15 years old dooing the thing...
Lots of 15 year olds have sex in Norway.

what about 2 14 year olds...
It happens. I'm not screaming bloody rapist yet.

Better yet lets make some six years olds do the stuff and of course there is mutual consent!
Lolicon doesn't equal "the younger, the better" you know. How many Bishoujo games have you played, anyway? Try to get some experience in what these games are about before going around posting nonsense like that.


Where do you draw a line?
Your own tolerance decides where YOU draw the line. That doesn't mean everyone else has to draw the line at the exact same spot. If something bothers you, leave it alone and let those who aren't bothered by it continue to enjoy it, as long as it's legal and no one is being hurt.

I even saw a topic here at animesuki forum which told that there has been a vending machine that sold schoolgilr underwear! (is that sick or what?) and that there (as far as i know) still are shops in JApan that sell those things. IF little girl goes there and takes his panties off its little more money...and if she provides a picture its double the money! (Honestly what do you think people do with the panties) there were even sickker things at the website that as far as i know was writen fact based in events at 93 but it was updated 2000...

....What does this have to do with the games? Playing a Bishoujo game and buying used underwear are two completely different things. Next you'll probably be blaming the Nike commercials for all the people with shoe-fetishes... I'd bet Imelda Marcos had seen too many of those.

anyway I say I BLAME LOLLICON! :upset:
Yup, just like the American parents and authorities blame video games for these shootings instead of the people who let the kids get their hands on the guns they used.

Its the sick intrest in little girls (which is more popular in Japan than here?) that keeps stores like that running!?

I'd like to remind you that we are still talking about Bishoujo games here. Saying Bishoujo games are to blame for the Japanese buying/selling used underwear shows a complete ignorance of Japanese culture in general.

daedalus6
2003-11-20, 04:16
daedalus6, you're ranting again...


Lots of 15 year olds have sex in Norway.


It happens. I'm not screaming bloody rapist yet.

I'd like to remind you that we are still talking about Bishoujo games here. Saying Bishoujo games are to blame for the Japanese buying/selling used underwear shows a complete ignorance of Japanese culture in general.

You didn't understand! Im saying because (some) people have lollicons these kind of shops can keep running. And because (some) people have lollicons these kind of games are more popular in Japan than for exsample in Europe.

Im drawing my conclusion that because there is statement a) -> b) next step in my logic was a) -> c) NOT a)->b)->c) Which you suggested. That makes no sense.

And it is completely different thing what WE can do our self and what we can view!
Im so glad that there are laws, So that those people like you you tend to think: "you can do anything you want just dont bug me ok!?" Moral relativists? dont get their way.
Believe what you will I say there are universal morals atleast at some extenct and laws in your own country are mayby the best exsample of this!

zalas
2003-11-20, 06:09
You didn't understand! Im saying because (some) people have lollicons these kind of shops can keep running. And because (some) people have lollicons these kind of games are more popular in Japan than for exsample in Europe.

Im drawing my conclusion that because there is statement a) -> b) next step in my logic was a) -> c) NOT a)->b)->c) Which you suggested. That makes no sense.

And it is completely different thing what WE can do our self and what we can view!
Im so glad that there are laws, So that those people like you you tend to think: "you can do anything you want just dont bug me ok!?" Moral relativists? dont get their way.
Believe what you will I say there are universal morals atleast at some extenct and laws in your own country are mayby the best exsample of this!
I dunno, but are there any facts to indicate that Europe has less Rorikons than Japan? They may not be as open about it, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Plus, laws can be made in many different ways, and only during a few cases does morality come into play.

AG3
2003-11-20, 09:38
You didn't understand! Im saying because (some) people have lollicons these kind of shops can keep running. And because (some) people have lollicons these kind of games are more popular in Japan than for exsample in Europe.

No, these games are "less popular" in Europe & the USA than in Japan because most shops here won't sell them, even adult shops, and so relatively few people know they exist. Like Japanese anime in general, public awareness of Bishoujo games is low, either they don't know they exist, or they don't know where to get them. Or they have this twisted, misinformed view of them that you seem to be displaying.

Also, you keep saying "lolicon this" and "lolicon that". If that is the only thing you know about these games and the Japanese culture, I suggest you try to find out more about both. You seem frighteningly narrow-minded and singularly occupied by that one aspect in a culture that is more complex than you try to picture it.

Bishoujo games are not purely lolicon, nor is lolicon the "worst" of what you can find in Bishoujo games. Only a tiny percentage of the games are translated to English. These games address a number of fetishes (for lack of a better word in my English vocabulary), lolicon is just one of many. You have games that deal with siscon (like the not-blood-related-siblings-in-love issue), S&M, and all other aspects of sexuality there is, including some of the "darker" ones.


And it is completely different thing what WE can do our self and what we can view!
Uh, yes it is, that's why I'm saying that sleeping with what you call a minor in these games isn't the same as doing it in real life, which you seem to imagine it is. Also, I don't understand your hypocrisy. Killing people in games is somehow less wrong than sleeping with a minor or step-sister? So, I guess I'm less of a sicko if I go out chain-sawing my neighbor than if I pick up a 15 year old girl in town tonight, then? Or is it just ok to watch digital violence, but not digital sex?



Im so glad that there are laws
So am I. I'd hate to go into town fearing that anyone could stab me to death without fear of being punished.


So that those people like you you tend to think: "you can do anything you want just dont bug me ok!?"
I don't think that. You seem to have missed (or willingly ignored) the "as long as it's legal and no one is being hurt" I wrote up there. I never said it was okay to do whatever you want regardless.


Believe what you will I say there are universal morals atleast at some extenct and laws in your own country are mayby the best exsample of this!

What laws would that be? And what makes the laws you are accustomed to more right than ours, if I may ask? Universal morals don't exist. Granted, there are some things that must be adhered to if the modern human society is to exist, regulated by laws, but that doesn't mean that whatever is written in law and "morals" should be accepted without question. If you do that, you're just a mindless sheep that will accept anything others say is "moral" or "the right thing", the kind of person that every dictator dreams of having as his subject.

Ikariku79
2004-02-13, 16:08
OK first of all id'like to say than im an anime lolicon adicted....

I've have play to Kana game (the sister thing) and i'm trying to play at Da Pantsu for now, but it's hard to play cuz it's in japanesse. Im gessing the answer and saving a lot of files. But OMG this game s driving me crazy....such a nice pantsu and sweet sister....

Im really enjoying those game and i dont understand what is the problem with all the people around telling me than im a pedophile !!! Im not raping any little girl and i'm not the kind of ruining a child life. :nono: I just enjoying seeing anime lolita in pantsu or any other cute pose (like the begining of Yumeria ep5) ...

So about the copyright...DO YOU REALLY CARE !!!! If someone taking the time to rip himself a game i think it worth my respect...

Told me,if some of you are really objective, do you hate guy like me or are you understand me ???

Magical goodbye

Ikariku79

Thelastguardian
2004-02-14, 00:51
I've have play to Kana game (the sister thing) and i'm trying to play at Da Pantsu for now, but it's hard to play cuz it's in japanesse. Im gessing the answer and saving a lot of files. But OMG this game s driving me crazy....such a nice pantsu and sweet sister....
ehhh you know the last sentence suggested that you just stepped out your first step and currently well on your way to become a traditional otaku ;)

Most of the 'detail' cgs you see on Internet are either from hgame or hmanga anyway, I dont see the problem with them being posted. Thus this should also be the same as anime (as long as its not hentai).

Diedrupo
2004-02-14, 03:20
I'm sorry, but you guys are naive fools for thinking that piracy doesn't hurt the industry. Piracy is the sole reason that H games aren't being brought out here. You think that american companies are being selfish? What about the japanese companies who license english translations in the first place? How do you think they feel about their products being pirated so freely? That is one of the main reasons why so many japanese companies are unwilling to get english versions out there.

I'm glad that i bought my copy of Snow Drop and that I have not played any pirated H games. I'm not going to say that all forms of piracy are evil, but when it comes to H games, an industry so small and weak and one that depends on hard sales, you guys are just total assholes for downloading the games for free. The least you could do is buy the games after "trying them out" if you really liked them (if you didn't, then I'd expect you to not play for very long and delete them rather than archive them).

DekaMaster
2004-02-14, 05:09
I'm sorry, but you guys are naive fools for thinking that piracy doesn't hurt the industry. Piracy is the sole reason that H games aren't being brought out here. You think that american companies are being selfish? What about the japanese companies who license english translations in the first place? How do you think they feel about their products being pirated so freely? That is one of the main reasons why so many japanese companies are unwilling to get english versions out there.

I'm glad that i bought my copy of Snow Drop and that I have not played any pirated H games. I'm not going to say that all forms of piracy are evil, but when it comes to H games, an industry so small and weak and one that depends on hard sales, you guys are just total assholes for downloading the games for free. The least you could do is buy the games after "trying them out" if you really liked them (if you didn't, then I'd expect you to not play for very long and delete them rather than archive them).

Do you buy all the anime you "try out"? Do you have mp3's? Got any programs you didn't pay for?

fish
2004-02-14, 17:49
Do you buy all the anime you "try out"? Do you have mp3's? Got any programs you didn't pay for?

Read the post before you reply, moron. He said:

"... but when it comes to H games, an industry so small and weak and one that depends on hard sales, ..."

Is Bill Gates going to suffer from your pirated version of Windows XP? I think not.

bluemist
2004-02-15, 01:30
The H-game industry is weak. I think Japanese/Americans can explain in more detail, but I figure the industry, both the Japan and American counterparts, is saturated with TOO MANY H-GAMES. It's not as strong as the computer industry/Microsoft.

DekaMaster
2004-02-15, 06:19
Read the post before you reply, moron. He said:

"... but when it comes to H games, an industry so small and weak and one that depends on hard sales, ..."

Is Bill Gates going to suffer from your pirated version of Windows XP? I think not.


I wasn't replying to him. And I paid for XP thanks. Also Isn't a ban in order here? Personal insults are against the rules.

ElvenPath
2004-02-15, 09:16
Chill out, no fights please. Just stay on-topic.

Zor
2004-02-15, 23:12
Interesting debate.

For me im simple minded. If the game is good regardless of content, i play it. If the story is good, i'll watch it. If not, then i delete. Ahhhh...the wonders of computer :)

The key point here is that....it is still JUST a game/story. And for that it should be just that. Don't bring it out into your daily life.

I assume most of you understand this. To understand the right or wrong. I cannot deny that hentai games are fantasy games where you have fornication with assumed minors. I guess...thats where you stop. Fantasy. Within your computers. Further than that.....you should know that it is wrong. Anyways, no one can stop you from imagining and fantasizing. There is no wrong in that.

As for piracy. Well, its up to the individual and his/her conscience. To buy or not to buy the original. The concept of "advising" such people who use pirated products is meaningless. Telling people why you buy pirated products would also be meaningless since they will not tolerate it...and the cycle goes on. So why dont we let this go? Let us simply enjoy the product while it last regardless of how you obtain it and let the authorities do the dirty work. We are not paying income taxes for nothing you know.