Mahouka - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll [Archive]

Kairin

2014-05-09, 12:02

Welcome to the discussion thread for Mahouka, Episode 6.

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Avaricia

2014-05-10, 10:59

Disappointing, but I guess I was just expecting too much. Can't wait for the next episode.

pampz21

2014-05-10, 12:19

Best part was Kirihara's confession#!

Kikimaru

2014-05-10, 12:20

I very enjoyed this episode. Especially, the fighting scenes.

Algent

2014-05-10, 12:45

Nice episode, but this was mildly infuriating:

http://i.imgur.com/LAgsac4.png

:heh:

Divini

2014-05-10, 12:49

The first episode I was really, really looking forward to. (aside from ep.1)

To me it didn't disappoint. Loved the fighting scenes.

Ultragunner

2014-05-10, 12:50

Nice episode, but this was mildly infuriating:

http://i.imgur.com/LAgsac4.png

:heh:

LOL, I wonder if that is on purpose, or just a another silly mistake like the one in episode 1 (the East/West Europe on the map thing :heh:)

Rava

2014-05-10, 13:14

It's anime. Of course it's a silly mistake. >_>

At least it's not as bad as "Materiarise" in Mai Otome.

Netto Azure

2014-05-10, 14:18

bakato

2014-05-10, 14:37

Damn. I thought for sure the arc would end on this one.

Awrya

2014-05-10, 14:39

Fighting scene between Erika and Mibu was well done, the only flaw is how they animated Erika using self-acceleration. I expected them to show Erika as a blur when moving around Mibu and not look like teleporting around.

Funny how Kirihara at the end was carrying a real katana. While it's legal to own one in Japan, you've got to question how he obtained it so quick. If it's his personal sword, why does the school allow students to bring their swords to school, if it's the school's sword, does the school give them out as freebies to any student who wants one?:twitch:

Nice episode, but this was mildly infuriating:

http://i.imgur.com/LAgsac4.png

:heh:

Obligatory image:
http://i.imgur.com/G9ZY78j.jpg
Engrish at its finest, sometimes I believe they are messing up on purpose for more Engrish memes.

Ultragunner

2014-05-10, 14:39

The BGM choices for this show is way too light hearted. It melts the tension way too fast. XD

Anyways the fight scenes were nice, It seems someone has been manipulating memories because how could an entire conversation be misunderstood like that otherwise?

Nice guess :D

And I'm glad that the conflict isn't cut short in Mahouka. In other anime, these types of villains would usually be left alone or be dealt with later

Kakurin

2014-05-10, 15:37

The fight scenes were done pretty nicely. Erika and Leo are also pretty strong in their own right. Shows that as long as you have a good specialisation you can hold your own in battle, even though your academic magics may be lacking.
Kirihara after that stunt in episode 3 shows himself to be more decent than expected. Good to see the anime showing a reasoning for his participation in that previous incident, as well as in the next operation.

Last but not least, damn, Tatsuya can be really cold. The way he shut off Ono-sensei (once again, horrible choice for a voice...) and his reaction to Leo's objection was pretty harsh. Then his determination to eradicate any threat to him and Miyuki; his character is slowly but surely gaining in contour. Miyuki's kind of similar in that, as shown by her words after stopping that terrorist with the gun.

Algent

2014-05-10, 15:40

Obligatory image:
Engrish at its finest, sometimes I believe they are messing up on purpose for more Engrish memes.

Someone on 4ch pointed out they also added a dick joke :rolleyes::

http://i.imgur.com/pEDR20R.jpg

pampz21

2014-05-10, 15:40

Last but not least, damn, Tatsuya can be really cold. The way he shut off Ono-sensei (once again, horrible choice for a voice...) and his reaction to Leo's objection was pretty harsh. Then his determination to eradicate any threat to him and Miyuki; his character is slowly but surely gaining in contour. Miyuki's kind of similar in that, as shown by her words after stopping that terrorist with the gun.
Well I cant say any hint or spoiler but yea; he's pretty much like that in a nut shell; Tatsuya is pretty cool-headed when its about killing people :heh:

GreyZone

2014-05-10, 15:48

Did you notice that Juumonji's car is a humvee (or at least something similar)?

Ickarium

2014-05-10, 16:15

Tis indeed a humvee or some other type of military vehicle. :)

Miraluka

2014-05-10, 16:28

Next week is going to emphasize more the difference of power of our imba MC's.

Someone on 4ch pointed out they also added a dick joke :rolleyes::

http://i.imgur.com/pEDR20R.jpg

Log Horizon's di*k joke was better
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zqGZgyvz0ag/UlIQUK5-Q6I/AAAAAAAAj_M/xKeEp_Ow_SI/s1600/Log+Horizon+01+17.JPG

Note that THAT is Akatsuki :heh:.

Eclipze

2014-05-10, 16:32

rladls716

2014-05-10, 16:37

The way Miyuki freezes one of the terrorist's hand that pointed gun at Tatsuya.
The terrorist made the voice of pain droping that gun from his hand.
It really made me feel uneasy.

The opponents are terrorist, so killing them is actually for the school's or the whole country's own good.
But even so it is not feeling good about it though.

I can't believe how Tatsuya quickly convinced Student Council members about destroying the terrorists.

Ickarium

2014-05-10, 16:41

You have to note that the attacks were a diversion. It was all about the raid on the archives. The others were just pawns and they don't care.

Not going to get into another long discussion on the politics of the situation. :)

HandofFate

2014-05-10, 16:41

Good episode.

Mibu got played so hard lol. The part when Mari was like "err you totally misunderstood what I said" That what happens when you let your inferiority complex cloud you perceptions MIbu.

I liked the Erika and Leo fight bits, that even though Tatsuya and Miyuki are in a league all their own, the side characters are still useful.

Kirihara scene at the end was also sweet. He only provoked Mibu because he liked her. aww...

Domonkazu

2014-05-10, 16:42

the OPness somehow remind me a bit of Chrome Shelled Regios.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-10, 17:11

Funny how Kirihara at the end was carrying a real katana. While it's legal to own one in Japan, you've got to question how he obtained it so quick. If it's his personal sword, why does the school allow students to bring their swords to school, if it's the school's sword, does the school give them out as freebies to any student who wants one?:twitch:

Different times, different mores. His club activity probably uses real swords for some stuff. Hopefully not practice spars, but who knows?

One thing I wonder about: how come Juumonji didn't grill Erika and Leo on their motivations? They're pretty much going there for kicks. And they're going to be in at least as much danger as Kirihara.

The fight scenes were done pretty nicely. Erika and Leo are also pretty strong in their own right. Shows that as long as you have a good specialisation you can hold your own in battle, even though your academic magics may be lacking.

Kinda, but remember they were fighting scrubs.

Ickarium

2014-05-10, 17:17

Likely he didn't because they're in Tatsuya's circle. It's Tatsuya who started it. Jumonji is joining him, as it were. Not his place, in his view, to agree or disagree. Kirihara's different.

~Yami~

2014-05-10, 19:09

waaahh... not enough Tatsuya's battle scene but Leo and Erika really awesome
Miyuki is also so OP and that's why they could infiltrate the library easily
poor terrorist, they're underestimating the students too much

Anyway, that counselor is little fishy...
and poor Mibu.. she's too pure so she could be manipulated easily (even she misunderstand something simple like Mari's word)
Tatsuya.... you're really good with words... I'm surprised that Miyuki didn't smack her brother after seeing someone fallen in love with her brother in front of her eyes xD
and Kirihara.... he's little weird. If he truly admire a.k.a love Mibu, I don't think his action in early episode is right... it's not like an act of losing temper, that is clearly an insult
even though he's trying to be awesome in this episode, he should explain his action and intent well to Mibu. I wonder how they would make up..

Juumonji is very manly xD
anyway, a full assault to enemy base.... Miyuki and Tatsuya will go wild !

Random Wanderer

2014-05-10, 19:43

Kirihara in earlier episode: The person I love has been acting strangely. Trying to kill her in public will solve everything!

And people call Miyuki yandere... :rolleyes:

kagato3

2014-05-10, 20:10

Anyway, that counselor is little fishy...

What's so fishy about Knowing exactly what the terrorists are after. Lurking around doors hiding her presence. Tatsuya implies she knows where the terrorists headquarters is. Referred to Tatsuya as a disciple of Kokonoe sensei.

The Green One

2014-05-10, 20:14

lol cmon now, he can't even be a third rate swordsman without having the skill to be able to avoid lethal attacks even with a lethal technique. He made a mistake and freely admitted it.

Seems the counselor isn't just a counselor.

Flower

2014-05-10, 20:41

I actually like the fact that they are giving this arc so many eps ... 7 at the minimum. It is nice to see something like this getting a semblance of a decent treatment.

Pretty good ep overall and looking forward to next week's ep too.

HandofFate

2014-05-10, 21:33

the power of a two cour schedule.

if it was one cour, i imagine everything so far would have been squeezed in and ended by episode 4 already

Ickarium

2014-05-10, 21:35

Something to remember is a lot of the arc encompass multiple light novels. This and the next one are both covered in two light novels. A later arc is covered in /three/, though I honestly found that one a bit padded. ;)

Tormenk

2014-05-10, 22:08

I don't remember how exactly the Erika and mibu fight went down in the novels but I always thought it was a even fight of pure sword skills so erika's takedown using acceleration magic was surprisingly odd to me. Eh whatever.

And juumonji denies kirihara on his intolerance of lawlessness but permits him on venting his anger and risking his pride. Oh lol.

Ultragunner

2014-05-10, 22:14

^ actually Erika did at first use magic (acceleration), but when Mibu mentioned Mari, Erika went full-blown with swordmanship to "break Mibu free" of Mari's image :heh:

Triple_R

2014-05-10, 22:34

The action scenes were pretty well-done and fun to watch. It was good to see the rest of the main cast get to really cut loose and show off their powers/fighting abilities, and not just have it be an one-man Tatsuya show.

However, I agree with Eclipze on how it's a bit disconcerting how generally lackluster the antagonists have been. I guess that's no big deal for an opening arc, where the main goal really should be showcasing what the main cast can do. But I hope that future antagonists come across as a bit more challenging and difficult to defeat than this.

pampz21

2014-05-10, 22:36

^ actually Erika did at first use magic (acceleration), but when Mibu mentioned Mari, Erika went full-blown with swordmanship to "break Mibu free" of Mari's image :heh:

Well Erika's not the type to hold back base on her personality and pretty much if its about swords ryt>?

But well swordsmanship Mibu pretty much did her best~

Is it me or are they making Tatsuya too OP?

larethian

2014-05-10, 23:13

the OPness somehow remind me a bit of Chrome Shelled Regios.

Your analogy is a quite apt imo.
In CSR, Layfon is already a heaven's blade user, so obviously his power level is extraordinary high compared to other students at the start of the series. The foreshadowing in episode 1 on the Shibas some years back already indicated they are no ordinary people, so it's quite baffling to me why people will be surprised at the Shibas' power levels and attitude compared to ordinary students. :heh:

IceHism

2014-05-10, 23:18

Is it me or are they making Tatsuya too OP?

Not really... It's about the same

Wandering Soul

2014-05-10, 23:46

Well not to much to say other that the fight scenes were well done. kirihara's speech about why he wants to go was pretty well done. Erika's voice did feel sort of off when she was talking to Mibu though.

Bakaizer

2014-05-10, 23:55

even the higher ups in school are amazed at tatsuya. brace yourselves worshipers and fangirls are coming

kagato3

2014-05-11, 00:23

Well Erika's not the type to hold back base on her personality and pretty much if its about swords ryt>?

But well swordsmanship Mibu pretty much did her best~

Is it me or are they making Tatsuya too OP?

Frankly I think they have toned him down in the anime. As we have seen Tatsuya is an OP combat monster, that what attracts a good portion of his fan base. If you can't stand that he is vastly better then most of the rest of the cast then this likely isn't the series for you.

Ickarium

2014-05-11, 02:14

At the least, in her own way, Miyuki is as badass, and Leo and Erika and other friends aren't bad either, if not Miyuki and Tatsuya's level. I won't comment on others as that's future stuff. :)

cyth

2014-05-11, 02:23

Think I'm gonna drop this show, this episode was just as random as the last one.

Faerie

2014-05-11, 03:27

Hmm.. Erika vs Mibu was at least interesting to watch.

But that aside, despite (or maybe because of?) the laughably over the top skills of its main cast, the show itself still manages only to present mediocrity.
While the reveal about Erika was somewhat interesting, the resolution to Mibu's conflict as a daft misunderstanding was underwhelming.
Miyuki continues to be a submissive cardboard cutout with nothing going for her and no one else stands out much either, amidst awkward dialogue and unnecessary, grating declarations of how amazeballs everyone is.
And I still want to eradicate that teacher from the face of the earth, she has to be the most obnoxious character of the season :heh:

That said, the show still looks pretty. Miyuki's design is gorgeous and her and Erika's magic look sufficiently cool.
I liked the reveal about the sword guy whose name escapes me.
Still less than impressed by this show, but I'll stick around until the next arc at least, if only to see if they invest some budget into facial expressions or if anyone transcends their cardboard cutout conception.

kukuru

2014-05-11, 04:11

Faerie

2014-05-11, 05:16

I think the fact that this show is still too higbrow for some people even as it attempt to cliche and lowbrow it .

The director definitely need to step up, but I think people are confusing culture shock with plot. Especially the continuing ragging of Myuki even as we reach episode 6.

It is one of the most pure Japanese stlye in a while.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, or what you mean by "pure japanese style", but my problem is precisely that it is too cliched and lowbrow compared to what I expected and that the writing seems average.

I fail to see the high brow element in big boobie loli fanservice (although that is the fault of the anime. The teacher looked perfectly fine in the novel illustration that was posted), nor do I consider making yourself a perfect, entirely two-dimensional ideal waifu who does exactly what you want, when you want particularly high brow.
That's about as low as it gets. And no, hiding it in the beginning of a plot does not mean it isn't weakly done.
While her basic characterisation is perfectly fine, the way they chose to portray her is pathetic.
And it bugs me, because it is unnecessary. There's no reason to make her a mouthpiece for what the viewer wants to hear.
So yes, I will criticise her (and others) lack of a believable personality until the writing is improved (if it is). You can consider that "ragging on x" all you like, but it is legitimate criticism of the very mediocre characterisation we have seen so far. The rest of the cast is equally affected, Mibu got a big slab of it this episode herself.

There's also not too much highbrow about Mahouka in general, for that matter. It's hardly going to win a Nobel prize, is it? It may not be entirely air headed, the world seems well thought out and it's not bad for a LN but let's not overstate it's merits. It's regular entertainment, not Tolstoy.

It's quite strange to equal commentary on weak writing with someone's taste apparently not being "highbrow enough" (based on what, exactly?). Arguing that the reason people don't like certain things about this show because they "just don't understand it" and are too stupid to appreciate its genius is frankly ridiculous. But I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say, in which case, I apologise.

Also: I am commenting on the current state of things in the anime, not on any future improvements, development, explanations or things that are immaterial for present purposes. If any novel readers could kindly respect that please. :)

kagato3

2014-05-11, 06:55

Gundamx

2014-05-11, 07:18

Think I'm gonna drop this show, this episode was just as random as the last one.

random?
are we watching same show?

random = out of nowhere and without any foreshadow terrorist attack them

but terrorist was been foreshadow long time ago
-they said organization name
-glasses guy attack tetsuya
-Glasses guy wear the organization flag
-who was club leader of Mibu
-he used bloom vs weed to recruits class 2 to join his cause by lying about equality
- many members wear organization flag
-it look like their real goal was to steal magic school secret data instead of equality
...etc

if you want to drop it than just do it without fake reason :heh:

Benigmatica

2014-05-11, 07:19

cyth

2014-05-11, 09:47

random?
are we watching same show?
Indeed we have, and it sucks.
but terrorist was been foreshadow long time ago
-they said organization name
I fail to see how info dumping a terrorist organization's name equals to foreshadowing.
-glasses guy attack tetsuya
-Glasses guy wear the organization flag

The guy who was wearing the bike mask? Sorry, didn't read the novels nor am I psychic to have known that when the scene occured. And they revealed his identity during the terror episode. Who the fuck knew that scene had terrorist animosity behind it ...

if you want to drop it than just do it without fake reason :heh:There are plenty of reasons to drop it. Part of the randomness, just like this terrorist attack that came out of nowhere, are numerous cliches that I don't find very amusing. Examples include focus shot of dumb teacher's breasts, which wasn't particularly entertaining nor funny nor arousing, they were just there, hanging, begging for some sort of reaction that never came; students acting on their own against all logic, talking about reclaiming supposed manhoods and whatnot (actually, I admit, that made me chuckle deep down inside how horrible it was); one heroine getting away scot-free of punishment because she's a girl and needs to remain in Tatsuya's harem, forever; even things you see in bad Hollywood blockbusters, for example Erika trying to give Mibu her sword to fight her.

My short dismissal was such because the anime doesn't deserve the time for discussion any longer. When even my real-life friends who have read all the novels ask me what do I think of the anime whilst expecting a verbose rebutal because they know it sucks, then you know you have EVERY reason to drop it.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-11, 09:55

bakato

2014-05-11, 09:59

That was a short terrorist threat I have ever seen after this episode. It seems that Kinoe Tsukasa doesn't have a backup plan and he just abandon his subordinates for his safety. What an asshole kendo club captain he was!

On the other hand, Tatsuya planning to raid Blanche's base of operations is kinda tricky for a Course 2 student. Despite having OP skills in combat, the leader of Blanche might pull some surprises when confronting the First High School students.

Obviously he doesn't have a backup plan. All his men were beaten and captured. He was the mole in First High so no one knew that he was an enemy and everyone else was captured, of course he's gonna run away.

Faerie

2014-05-11, 10:10

I think them cutting a unrelated scene with A-chan at the end of the club week has back fired with that it is a bit clearer as to what's going on although I have seen a few speculation s in the right direction.

@SkullFaerie
Not sure where you are getting the idea Miyuki is someone that will do whatever you say. The anime has shown time and time again she wants to drag her brother in to the spotlight while he just wants to stay in the shadows.

Also remember due to the nature of this being a adaption it has cut a ton of the characterion moments. At this point unless they are directly related to the main plot of the series or arc they have been cut or glossed over.

Not so much whatever you say, as whatever you desire and want to hear. You, the average intended viewer, not Tatsuya.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of intended effect on the average target viewer- who would project themselves onto the male lead.
- his (your) grades are bad: perfect Imouto with more perfect features than anyone in the entire world who has the hots for you mentions at every opportunity that it's because the system can't measure your incredible awesomeness.
- you want to do stuff: breathtakingly beautiful Imouto will follow you wherever and supplement your awesomeness unquestioningly, but never really get in the way of showing how awesome you are. She will merely compliment it, like a nice watch.

Not an unusual thing in this type of medium and teen lit in general, but it makes for poor characterisation.
Miyuki should be a personality in her own right, rather than a device to make the viewer feel good about themselves. Right now, she isn't. As a result, her dialogue is increasingly awkward and she comes across flat as cardboard. Currently, she's reduced to a pretty accessory that makes Tatsuya look cool on the "Tatsuya does cool things" show (I'm exaggerating a bit, as some other people recently got their brief moments, but this still very much feels like the Tatsuya show) and that's just not very engaging to watch.
I'm just sat there thinking, hey, you set up this pretty cool character and this is how you're wasting it.

It's not just her. The rest of the cast doesn't fair much better tbh. It's all an endless litany of "you didn't say I was awesome- I'm awesome" -"No, I meant to say you were awesome." -"What do you mean, I'm not awesome.... Wait, I'm awesome" -"are you as awesome as x?" -"no, I'm more awesome" :heh:
The entire thing seems like it has some good ideas but amateurish execution are bogging it down significantly.

And people keep repeating that something or the other was better in the novel- don't worry, we get that the novel readers think so. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. It doesn't affect the quality of the adaption which is what we are watching here ;)

itisjustme

2014-05-11, 10:27

Not so much whatever you say, as whatever you desire and want to hear. You, the average intended viewer, not Tatsuya.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of intended effect on the average target viewer- who would project themselves onto the male lead.
- his (your) grades are bad: perfect Imouto with more perfect features than anyone in the entire world who has the hots for you mentions at every opportunity that it's because the system can't measure your incredible awesomeness.
- you want to do stuff: breathtakingly beautiful Imouto will follow you wherever and supplement your awesomeness unquestioningly, but never really get in the way of showing how awesome you are. She will merely compliment it, like a nice watch.

Not an unusual thing in this type of medium and teen lit in general, but it makes for poor characterisation.
Miyuki should be a personality in her own right, rather than a device to make the viewer feel good about themselves. Right now, she isn't. As a result, her dialogue is increasingly awkward and she comes across flat as cardboard. Currently, she's reduced to a pretty accessory that makes Tatsuya look cool on the "Tatsuya does cool things" show (I'm exaggerating a bit, as some other people recently got their brief moments, but this still very much feels like the Tatsuya show) and that's just not very engaging to watch.
I'm just sat there thinking, hey, you set up this pretty cool character and this is how you're wasting it.

It's not just her. The rest of the cast doesn't fair much better tbh. It's all an endless litany of "you didn't say I was awesome- I'm awesome" -"No, I meant to say you were awesome." -"What do you mean, I'm not awesome.... Wait, I'm awesome" -"are you as awesome as x?" -"no, I'm more awesome" :heh:
The entire thing seems like it has some good ideas but amateurish execution are bogging it down significantly.

And people keep repeating that something or the other was better in the novel- don't worry, we get that the novel readers think so. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. It doesn't affect the quality of the adaption which is what we are watching here ;)

I read 11 of the ln volumes (I was bored in the hospital) and I still think the same as you. Miyuki is flat and annoying. The only difference being the LNs give slightly more meat to side characters that'll enable you to like them if you're already favorably predisposed towards them (aka they're your type :P). I fail to see anything remotely high brow about Mahouka, it's basically a brain candy "Tatsuya is so cool" show and it'll appeal to people who like that type. The bad thing is he's not even that cool in this arc, I wish they'd compressed this whole thing in a couple eps tops.

kagato3

2014-05-11, 11:14

I agree that the attack was stupid. Since they'd turned students, they already had access, that's why Tatsuya says he's there. (I do wonder why high school students would be given access to "unpublished papers", but whatever...)

Even if they don't have access rights, stealth has got to be a cheaper way to get the research than that showy attack. (Executed right when they knew everybody would be on hand to defend the school, too.)

I doubt that students have the ability to download copies of the papers that can be moved off site since they needed what appeared to be machines to break into the system to do so. They remind me of the Microfilm papers and magazines that both my high school and collage had you could read them all day long but there was no way to make copies. Also given the level of importance the papers have I'm willing to bet the rooms are heavily monitored. so short of sending someone with perfect recall in to read as many papers as possible while at the same time trying to be sneeky about it they are going to have to break into the system and likely be flagged by the system and have to deal with what ever forces are sent their way. Instead they did a big showy raid on the other side of the campus to me that sounds like a great way to tie up any campus security.

Kakurin

2014-05-11, 11:16

The guy who was wearing the bike mask? Sorry, didn't read the novels nor am I psychic to have known that when the scene occured. And they revealed his identity during the terror episode. Who the fuck knew that scene had terrorist animosity behind it ...
The guy who attacked Tatsuya in episode four didn't wear a mask. In fact his face is shown - as that of the kendo club captain. Then his wristband was shown, which was revealed later in the same episode as belonging to Egalite, itself a sub-organisation of the terrorist group Blanche. That you proclaim you didn't see this shows that you either didn't really bother watching it, or that you only "watched" it in order to be able to bash it.

Ultragunner

2014-05-11, 11:45

Not so much whatever you say, as whatever you desire and want to hear. You, the average intended viewer, not Tatsuya.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of intended effect on the average target viewer- who would project themselves onto the male lead.
- his (your) grades are bad: perfect Imouto with more perfect features than anyone in the entire world who has the hots for you mentions at every opportunity that it's because the system can't measure your incredible awesomeness.
- you want to do stuff: breathtakingly beautiful Imouto will follow you wherever and supplement your awesomeness unquestioningly, but never really get in the way of showing how awesome you are. She will merely compliment it, like a nice watch.

Not an unusual thing in this type of medium and teen lit in general, but it makes for poor characterisation.
Miyuki should be a personality in her own right, rather than a device to make the viewer feel good about themselves. Right now, she isn't. As a result, her dialogue is increasingly awkward and she comes across flat as cardboard. Currently, she's reduced to a pretty accessory that makes Tatsuya look cool on the "Tatsuya does cool things" show (I'm exaggerating a bit, as some other people recently got their brief moments, but this still very much feels like the Tatsuya show) and that's just not very engaging to watch.
I'm just sat there thinking, hey, you set up this pretty cool character and this is how you're wasting it.

It's not just her. The rest of the cast doesn't fair much better tbh. It's all an endless litany of "you didn't say I was awesome- I'm awesome" -"No, I meant to say you were awesome." -"What do you mean, I'm not awesome.... Wait, I'm awesome" -"are you as awesome as x?" -"no, I'm more awesome" :heh:
The entire thing seems like it has some good ideas but amateurish execution are bogging it down significantly.

And people keep repeating that something or the other was better in the novel- don't worry, we get that the novel readers think so. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. It doesn't affect the quality of the adaption which is what we are watching here ;)
Sorry to break it to you, but that's just for a minority of the LN reader :heh:

*sigh*.....well, perhaps the director is also one of the guys who didn't dig deep enough to understand and capture the essence of the LN. It is highly possible that he just thought:

"Oh!!! This LN has a beautiful imouto who is a brocon, let's focus on that!!! I hear sibling's love is a thing nowadays!! Just look at SAO and see how well it did!!!"

also, "monologues?? who cares about that thing? I think the viewers prefer more action!! YES!! Let's do that!!"

I'm really not venting anything here, it's a thought of mine when watching the anime :heh:

cyth

2014-05-11, 12:59

That you proclaim you didn't see this shows that you either didn't really bother watching it, or that you only "watched" it in order to be able to bash it.Well, you do have reason to snipe my "character". But I assure you, it was a simple miss. I went back and checked out that episode. It was a one-second flash of his hand that was out of focus. In the earlier scene, his face was obstructed even though he wasn't wearing a mask.

This doesn't change my opinion that the show sucks and that the terrorist attack itself (however present the danger) wasn't foreshadowed enough. Since I like badass leads, the show was running on expense of my patience, which unfortunately ran out, no thanks to the above-mentioned facts. :) I can also assure you that I was looking forward to this show the most this season and that I gave it big points over shows like No Game No Life in the beginning. With bad direction, bad pacing, below average animation for a show of this profile, and annoying cliche female characters, the show's got only one thing going for it (Tatsuya), but even that quality I begin questioning, since as others have said everything is built to hype the man up, leaving everything else subpar in execution.

But of course, you can further the "us vs. them" mentality if you want, with "this show is awesome because the haters don't bother paying attention". Well we would bother paying more attention if we didn't have to roll our eyes every few minutes because we think we're wasting our precious time on promises of quality that don't come. :)

Kakurin

2014-05-11, 13:11

His face was obstructed even though he wasn't wearing a mask in the earlier scene.
Nope, his face is clearly visible if you look slightly more closely. At minute 7:16 you can see a pair of glasses, as well as a haircut that is exactly the same as the kendo club captain. And your objection that the attack wasn't foreshadowed enough is shaky in my opinion. First of all, the terrorist link is established in episode 4 and in episode 5 Tatsuya goes to Kokonoe-sensei to get more information, where it is established, that the kendo club captain's adopted brother is the leader of the terrorist cell in that area. Then during that conversation you see the frame cutting to a gathering of those terrorists, where they get the rings handed to them. That's as clear as it can get to saying some intervention by those terrorists will happen, without including a statement "Tomorrow we will blow up the school and steal valuable research data!".

bakato

2014-05-11, 13:16

cyth

2014-05-11, 13:20

Nope, his face is clearly visible if you look slightly more closely. At minute 7:16 you can see a pair of glasses, as well as a haircut that is exactly the same as the kendo club captain.
You mean to say you can see glasses in this scene?
http://shrani.si/f/36/bt/2wrjnBFA/horriblesubsmahouka-0448.jpg
I had to pause and look very closely to see them. Hardly something meant to be caught whilst playback is running.
http://shrani.si/f/y/12n/2ql9Sci5/horriblesubsmahouka-0448.jpg
And a haircut that could be of any male character from Mahouka? :) I could've mistaken him for Erika.

You're being delusional if you think darkening the character isn't meant to obstruct what the viewer should know. But I digress, I should've paid more attention to the scene later. Or the whole anime. I do suspect that wouldn't have made any difference in the long run since direction and characters are pretty terrible.

Kakurin

2014-05-11, 13:28

Well, that's why I only use HD versions. In your screenshot the face is one big pile of pixel mud. :p

http://i.imgur.com/RxuD6KG.jpg

cyth

2014-05-11, 13:35

You're being delusional if you think darkening the character isn't meant to obstruct what the viewer should know.This back and forth was fun, but I have better anime to watch right now.

cleo

2014-05-11, 13:42

I liked the fighting scenes, but the rest was very underwhelming indeed. I like Mibu, but not what they do to her character. Her misunderstanding was the dumbest I've ever seen in anime. It made that whole ' let's forgive the poor little dumb girl' quite jarring to watch.

Also remember due to the nature of this being a adaption it has cut a ton of the characterion moments. At this point unless they are directly related to the main plot of the series or arc they have been cut or glossed over.

*sigh*.....well, perhaps the director is also one of the guys who didn't dig deep enough to understand and capture the essence of the LN. It is highly possible that he just thought:

"Oh!!! This LN has a beautiful imouto who is a brocon, let's focus on that!!! I hear sibling's love is a thing nowadays!! Just look at SAO and see how well it did!!!"

also, "monologues?? who cares about that thing? I think the viewers prefer more action!! YES!! Let's do that!!"

I'm really not venting anything here, it's a thought of mine when watching the anime :heh:As anime-only watcher I indeed get the impression that they think showing a cool setting, cool magic and cool MC is enough to make up for lack of characterization. But as SkullFaerie says, it's starting to stick out as a sore thumb.

bigdeath

2014-05-11, 13:48

Better anime to watch this season? Eh? Not really? Surprised how much some people have grown to dislike this show. But ah well, can't please everyone.

This isn't the best show ever but its at least entertaining me enough to keep watching. Nice to see Erika can kick some ass.

As a Batman fan, I'm not turned off by any OPness of the main character of this show or his stoic personality.

The Green One

2014-05-11, 14:36

Burden

2014-05-11, 14:43

The series is advancing well and overall I'm happy. Granted, I'm still bored, waiting for the real content to start.

Faerie

2014-05-11, 15:29

Different strokes for different folks. Some are not going to bother to try to understand the intricacies of this show. Others have decided that it just isn't for them for whatever arbitrary reason that feels valid to them. No sense arguing really since the only really convincing arguments will involve spoilers which will get us shot by the long suffering mods.

I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous. Invalidating people's opinion by claiming their reasoning is "arbitrary" and they can't see the "intricacies" of it?
So everyone is just to stupid for your precious show? Lel.

You shouldn't have to spoil a novel to explain why an adaption's writing is below average six episodes in. :D

P.s @Ultragunner that "minority" probably brings in a good bit of cash though ;) I do agree with you that at least some of my negative impression is attributable to the director though.. He really seems to be operating among those lines. As evidenced by the stupid teacher vs the teacher in the novel.

Triple_R

2014-05-11, 16:06

With Miyuki, I think people should probably just accept that she's "A 100% yandere brocon with slight Yamato Nadeshiko tendencies, a nice character design, and cool powers. The End."

Like it or not, that's it, that's her character. It is a bit disappointing, but at some point, I think it's best to just roll with it and stop hoping/expecting for more.

If the other female characters were weak, this would indeed be a big problem. Maybe even a critical problem. But honestly, most of the other major female characters are pretty strong, fun, and interesting, so I can roll with Miyuki being the way she is.

Erika vs. Mibu was a nice fight, and even a bit surprising to me. It's good to see that Erika and Leo are combat monsters in their own right. And I like Leo more than I do a lot of anime "wingman" characters, so the male character side of this show is pretty good (Tatsuya is a bit OP, but his attitudes/personality is interesting, and I'll take his OPness over another milquetoast doormat anime male lead).

The antagonists are a bit lackluster, but it's only the opening arc. Spider-Man's first major mission out was against a random thief/murderer, not exactly the stuff of legends. Superman took on fairly generic mad scientists (and random crooks) that were hopelessly outclassed.

Besides, my gut feeling is that the guy in the red outfit in the OP is going to be a good rival for Tatsuya. That seems to be what the OP is hinting at, anyway.

The Green One

2014-05-11, 16:13

I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous. Invalidating people's opinion by claiming their reasoning is "arbitrary" and they can't see the "intricacies" of it?
So everyone is just to stupid for your precious show? Lel.

You shouldn't have to spoil a novel to explain why an adaption's writing is below average six episodes in. :D

P.s @Ultragunner that "minority" probably brings in a good bit of cash though ;) I do agree with you that at least some of my negative impression is attributable to the director though.. He really seems to be operating among those lines. As evidenced by the stupid teacher vs the teacher in the novel.

You just proved my point for me. Everyone's opinion is only completely valid for themselves. Which includes mine. If you're calling me ridiculous, I'm afraid you're just naive. It's sad that some people don't like the show for various personal reasons but hey that's their prerogative and I respect that. Getting bent out of shape over who's right and who's wrong is just silly.

quigonkenny

2014-05-11, 16:39

*pulls out the popcorn*

*munch, munch*

Faerie

2014-05-11, 16:53

^ share!

You just proved my point for me. Everyone's opinion is only completely valid for themselves. Which includes mine. If you're calling me ridiculous, I'm afraid you're just naive. It's sad that some people don't like the show for various personal reasons but hey that's their prerogative and I respect that. Getting bent out of shape over who's right and who's wrong is just silly.

Right... Yet that's exactly what you're doing. Claiming people's opinion isn't valid because it diverts from your own and thus must be misguided and shallow. You're imagining an ad hominem that isn't there..:
I am not calling you ridiculous, but your invalidation of people's opinion based on nothing but the fact that you like a show and others have made critical observations.
The fact that you enjoy something does not mean everyone else just doesn't understand it's greatness, it means people have different expectations and taste. Which you claim to understand, so don't try and attribute it to things like "personal reasons, refusing to understand intricacies or arbitrary reasons".
Anyways, moving on.

@3R I agree. In all honesty, I am slowly starting to go into this show expecting just some very simple entertainment and maybe some delicious drama- it's been a while since Valvrave, so that might not be the worst thing! ;) this will likely help with my enjoyment a bit.
I just find it disappointing whenever the main female lead, who is strong on paper falls into these cliches. Although that's not my only issue.. The direction seems a bit weak overall, still. That hasn't changed from the earlier episodes.
But like you said, there are others, who fare better, which helps- although it was disappointing to see Mibu get dumbed down this episode.

Tatsuya himself isn't an issue either, I like that he's competent and most of the cast isn't too bad, but they all could do with some better direction Ah... Really, in the end, I just think the direction/writing/characterisation is weak, but with some strict cleaning up this could've been a very good show and it's a shame that it squanders it's potential like this.

Iron Maw

2014-05-11, 18:23

"Oh!!! This LN has a beautiful imouto who is a brocon, let's focus on that!!! I hear sibling's love is a thing nowadays!! Just look at SAO and see how well it did!!!"

From what little I've read of manga, the anime isn't very different in that regard to this and I hear it's worse in the LN. I'm going to agree with Triple R here go with Miyuki being a YMMV type of character.

also, "monologues?? who cares about that thing? I think the viewers prefer more action!! YES!! Let's do that!!"

Except there hasn't even been much in way of action either, just dialogue that is (for the most part) as dry as a 16th century old corpse. Maybe internal monologues in LN do make things a bit more interesting, but then this issue would be partly the fault of original source for directing all of that there in first place. Besides paragraphs of internalized dialogue rarely work in any visual medium unless backup by the strength pf very good writing and colorfully personalities anyway.

IceHism

2014-05-11, 19:09

itisjustme

2014-05-11, 19:45

I disagree, the anime completely destroyed everything about Miyuki. I'm not getting the same impression of her in the anime compared to the LN outside of being a brocon. Let's not just leave it at that, the anime has destroyed almost all the characters already. Mahouka is simply too ambitious to adapt as in the format of the series is simply not good for a visual medium.

I think its kind of funny how people are saying that there indeed is a right opinion. As far as I'm concerned, that's not the definition of an opinion.

In what sense is Mahouka ambitious?

Also Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Ghost in the Shell, the Twelve Kingdoms, there are outstanding examples of ambitious animes seamlessly blending complex plot with world building, character building and gripping narrative all in one (plus some action in GiTS's case).

IceHism

2014-05-11, 19:58

In what sense is Mahouka ambitious?

Also Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Ghost in the Shell, the Twelve Kingdoms, there are outstanding examples of ambitious animes seamlessly blending complex plot with world building, character building and gripping narrative all in one (plus some action in GiTS's case).

Ummmmm, i already stated it. The format of how the story is presented is not good for a visual medium. It's not about the content. It's about the presentation.

itisjustme

2014-05-11, 20:05

Aha, yeah, I think the studio should have taken way bigger liberties with the story structure to make it work in anime form tbh.

HandofFate

2014-05-11, 20:07

meh, there's more to Miyuki than how the anime presents it compared to the LN.

But there's not that much more to her lol. At least not at this story point.

guestuser

2014-05-11, 20:29

meh, there's more to Miyuki than how the anime presents it compared to the LN.

But there's not that much more to her lol. At least not at this story point.we would all think the same if we did not read the light novel

Kenju of the Right

2014-05-11, 20:34

Its a little concerning that everyone else who isn't part of the main cast gets portrayed as completely incompetent and stupid (all of that awesomeness seem to have been redirected into Tatsuya alone). The "terrorist" group launching an attack without consideration of magic user's counterattacks, the "weed" students who could not even put up proper examples of why they felt discriminated against during the debate, and then the ultimate scapegoat, Mibu, who went from good intentions, easy to manipulate person to a downright stupid one.

This, really it does drive me crazy how it makes everyone that isn't the main cast to be completely stupid and weak before them. Especially with how obnoxious Tatsuya is with the whole ''the sweet taste of equality" thing
Got me rooting for the antagonists(Mibu mainly)

kagato3

2014-05-11, 20:35

IceHism

2014-05-11, 20:42

. Especially with how obnoxious Tatsuya is with the whole ''the sweet taste of equality" thing
Got me rooting for the antagonists(Mibu mainly)

So.. You disliked it because it clashed with your political ideals?

Kenju of the Right

2014-05-11, 20:53

i disliked it because it's making everyone else's ideals and such look stupid

IceHism

2014-05-11, 21:03

i disliked it because it's making everyone else's ideals and such look stupid

I see

But this is a common thing isn't it. Not just in fiction but in real life as well. I'm not sure where I want to go with this so you don't have to reply.

rladls716

2014-05-11, 21:19

It made me think why even Mibu Sayaka still attending The Magic School, more than a year if she cannot bear with discrimination?
She should just quit the Magic School and find many other schools and other ways to hone her sword skills where there is problem free.

Her specially is sword combat, so being a course 2 student is least of her worries.
She already knew herself that she does not have the requirement of a course 1 student level of magic skills.

But then again, if it weren't for Kirihara Takeaki, Sayaka seriously has to quit the magic school.

I can't believe there is a terrorists organization succeeded on manipulating this many students for their desires.
The Magic School might get sued by some student's parents for letting this happen.

Magewolf

2014-05-11, 21:29

I see

But this is a common thing isn't it. Not just in fiction but in real life as well. I'm not sure where I want to go with this so you don't have to reply.

More and more this show is starting to remind me of American military /sci fi. Most of which leans hard to the right and a number of whose authors like to put in liberal polices and thinly disguised well know liberals as the root of all evil(including having them rounded up and herded into an arena to be shot for the good of the nation). I find it annoying because of all the straw man and stacked deck arguments even if I agree with the author's opinion about whatever they are complaining about. Even more so I guess if I agree because it makes the rest of us look bad by association.

maplehurry

2014-05-11, 21:41

I can't believe there is a terrorists organization succeeded on manipulating this many students for their desires.
The school might get sued by some student's parents for letting this happen.

lol, at this point, I am curious on whether it's a problem solely for this school, or does it also affect other schools...

Triple_R

2014-05-11, 22:01

Politically-focused fiction in general tends to cheaply caricaturize "the other side" of the issue. I've never seen a big difference between the right and the left when it comes to this. Mahouka is not much better, but it's not much worse either. At least Tatsuya has put some thought into his political/philosophical position, and he's brutally frank about it. At least Mibu is implicitly being forgiven for her mistakes, and is not being downright demonized for her position.

IceHism

2014-05-11, 22:10

More and more this show is starting to remind me of American military /sci fi. Most of which leans hard to the right and a number of whose authors like to put in liberal polices and thinly disguised well know liberals as the root of all evil(including having them rounded up and herded into an arena to be shot for the good of the nation). I find it annoying because of all the straw man and stacked deck arguments even if I agree with the author's opinion about whatever they are complaining about. Even more so I guess if I agree because it makes the rest of us look bad by association.

I'm not sure i totally agree with the author being right winged as i always had the impression that he was satirizing Japan in Mahouka by grossly exaggerating everything, even if it was up to this point in the novel, and later volumes haven't changed my impression of that.

Although i agree that strawman or stacked decked arguments are a bit annoying, i don't find fiction or real life that much better in respect to the portrayal of this. "Us vs Them" is kind of human nature so someone is gonna get denounced sooner or later anyways imo.

kagato3

2014-05-11, 22:23

More and more this show is starting to remind me of American military /sci fi. Most of which leans hard to the right and a number of whose authors like to put in liberal polices and thinly disguised well know liberals as the root of all evil(including having them rounded up and herded into an arena to be shot for the good of the nation). I find it annoying because of all the straw man and stacked deck arguments even if I agree with the author's opinion about whatever they are complaining about. Even more so I guess if I agree because it makes the rest of us look bad by association.

We have basicly been shown that this whole discrimination thing is nothing more then teenagers being jerks to each other being massively blown out of proportion by a smooth talker with an agenda. Tatsuya's point (life is not fair, deal) is valid. The course 2 students are just as responsible for the discrimination as they just blindly accept it failing to notice that the only difference between course 1 and 2 students is that course 1 students get teachers and can be part of the SC. The teaching one can't be fixed by any practical means but doesn't stop course 2 students from getting the same diploma as them, the second one was never bothered to be changed but it is so minor that I don't think the protesters even knew about it and the SC prez is trying to get it changed.
It has nothing to do with politics.

miroku2192

2014-05-11, 22:34

Magewolf

2014-05-11, 22:44

We have basicly been shown that this whole discrimination thing is nothing more then teenagers being jerks to each other being massively blown out of proportion by a smooth talker with an agenda. Tatsuya's point (life is not fair, deal) is valid. The course 2 students are just as responsible for the discrimination as they just blindly accept it failing to notice that the only difference between course 1 and 2 students is that course 1 students get teachers and can be part of the SC. The teaching one can't be fixed by any practical means but doesn't stop course 2 students from getting the same diploma as them, the second one was never bothered to be changed but it is so minor that I don't think the protesters even knew about it and the SC prez is trying to get it changed.
It has nothing to do with politics.

Actually we have not been shown that we have been told that by male Ayn Rand( with a side order of blaming the victim) . What we have been show is systemic discrimination as well as personal discrimination.

Of course in the end it turns out the only problem was that the underclass is made up of easily lead idiots who had to be shown the error of their ways by the MC.

maplehurry

2014-05-11, 23:02

Tatsuya's point (life is not fair, deal) is valid.

Actually, it's: Life's not fair. Might's right. Deal with it only if you don't have the might. :p

kagato3

2014-05-11, 23:07

Actually we have not been shown that we have been told that by male Ayn Rand( with a side order of blaming the victim) . What we have been show is systemic discrimination as well as personal discrimination.

Of course in the end it turns out the only problem was that the underclass is made up of easily lead idiots who had to be shown the error of their ways by the MC.

Please enlighten me to how Course 2 students have been subjects of discrimination that have not been based solely on personal anger(Teens being jerks)(kendo demonstration), jealousy(Teens being jerks)(the lunch room) or valid logical arguments(Hanzo on Tatsuya in the DC, Tatsuya was using the same augment to get out of doing the DC job and would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling Sister)(The teacher issue, Mibu doesn't even count this as discrimination since she was not for getting Corse 2 students teachers).

Allium

2014-05-12, 00:47

This show is getting more difficult for me to like. It has some nice action, but the characters are just so bland, and this episode didn't help either. Mibu's misunderstanding was facedesk-worthy.

Iron Maw

2014-05-12, 01:13

Please enlighten me to how Course 2 students have been subjects of discrimination that have not been based solely on personal anger(Teens being jerks)(kendo demonstration), jealousy(Teens being jerks)(the lunch room) or valid logical arguments(Hanzo on Tatsuya in the DC, Tatsuya was using the same augment to get out of doing the DC job and would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that meddling Sister)(The teacher issue, Mibu doesn't even count this as discrimination since she was not for getting Corse 2 students teachers).

How about the fact that C2 students can't serve on student council or that they are forced wear uniforms that makes convenient targets of derogatory insults and the like based on stupid mistake that should have been corrected long ago? But that aside a bit your post actually just proved that there is discrimination. Whether it's coming from teens or adults, whether it's about race or ability, is irrelevant. Discrimination is discrimination, it shouldn't be sugarcoated or tolerated in whatever form it takes. It's poisonous to any social environment, especially in one that is supposed to be a a place of learning where futures are shaped. The fact this status quo is thought to superseded familial bonds as shown with Morisaki in ep 1 or allows the Blooms to feel that it is their inherent right to not show Weeds any respect as shown Hanzo in ep 2 is pretty telling about how abnormal and severe the problem is. What's even more egregious is despite the fact this isn't actually allowed by school regulations, the incompetent administrative staff does nothing to enforce that rule and lets such a culture foster.

Now we have the author later strawmanning the opposition (using Mibu as the symbol) who shouldn't of had trouble conveying such simple ideas. All so he could prop up some right-winged ideology by associating the other side with terrorists and completely undermine them instead of acknowledging that both sides had some merit regardless of whether some international organization ulterior motives might be involved or not. The entire thing is framed in such bluntly laughable biased narrowed fashion that I'm not going to bother taking Mahouka politics seriously at all.

I frankly I don't also buy that any of issues in that school are unsolvable, because they aren't. It just requires someone with brains and a effort to care to take the necessary steps to do so. Sure some of these changes may hurt in short term, but anything worth doing usually does especially when it comes to producing positive long term results.

kukuru

2014-05-12, 01:44

Kakurin

2014-05-12, 01:44

I've just finished volume 2, so I have to be careful what I say. Just this, at least wait for another week before dropping the hammer on Mahouka over an issue like Mibu's stupidity.

Iron Maw

2014-05-12, 02:06

Are we at this BS again? This isn't even sitting at the back of the bus situation. It's a freakin uniform. And let's be realistic. "forced" wtf.

Let me change a term on that.

Hi I'm a first year, I'm force to wear a first year badge with 1st year ID. Those 2nd years and 3rd years are discriminating against me for being a first year which I should be in because I have not reached 2nd year.

Are there a bunch of jerks in school there is always jerks in school. Are there circles in school? There are always circles in school.

But no "systematic" discrimination is happening on that level. Going on clothing is the flimsiest argument of all the argument, is Mibu level goof up. It's all in your mind, why there the blank on your shoulder is derogatory.

Seriously there are many sides to this. Clothing is just...

Discrimination has always been based on flimsy reasoning or some stupid trait to define an entire person's worth (or lack thereof). The issue as the anime has presented it isn't limited to one or two people taking advantage of it, but half the student body. It even restricts the one half and makes their lives harder than it is. If all this drama really to amounted to some retarded misunderstanding which handwaved so Tatsuya can go beat up some generic terrorists then this probably ranks up as one of most pointless and poorest arcs I've ever witnessed.

Ultragunner

2014-05-12, 02:47

From what little I've read of manga, the anime isn't very different in that regard to this and I hear it's worse in the LN. I'm going to agree with Triple R here go with Miyuki being a YMMV type of character.

Except there hasn't even been much in way of action either, just dialogue that is (for the most part) as dry as a 16th century old corpse. Maybe internal monologues in LN do make things a bit more interesting, but then this issue would be partly the fault of original source for directing all of that there in first place. Besides paragraphs of internalized dialogue rarely work in any visual medium unless backup by the strength pf very good writing and colorfully personalities anyway.

yeah, and that's the bummer :mad:

^ yup, and the "discrimination" thing is stupid, and I think the author think that too :p

kukuru

2014-05-12, 02:49

Discrimination has always been based on flimsy reasoning or some stupid trait to define an entire person's worth (or lack thereof). The issue as the anime has presented it isn't limited to one or two people taking advantage of it, but half the student body. It even restricts the one half and makes their lives harder than it is. If all this drama really to amounted to some retarded misunderstanding which handwaved so Tatsuya can go beat up some generic terrorists then this probably ranks up as one of most pointless and poorest arcs I've ever witnessed.

So you're saying....because the anime hasn't backed up your views, the plot must be stupid?

To add to that, the "generic terrorist" wow. I guess the plot really did fly over someone's head. If they're so generic, then how come there's all sort of "hints" and foreshadows that pan it out. I guess it must be generic hints and foreshadows that the generic viewer didn't bother with because it's so generic.

For one thing, they have their hands on magic canceling rings, which just one episode ago said that no ordinary person, or even un ordinary group can get a hold of. Those things are almost completely military restricted by every country in the world.

Iron Maw

2014-05-12, 03:30

yeah, and that's the bummer :mad:

^ yup, and the "discrimination" thing is stupid, and I think the author think that too :p

Well, thinking it over maybe I'm probably being overly harsh. I just expected a better resolution and something more complex than what we got to something the show lead to believe was of some importance.

So you're saying....because the anime hasn't backed up your views, the plot must be stupid?

To add to that, the "generic terrorist" wow. I guess the plot really did fly over someone's head. If they're so generic, then how come there's all sort of "hints" and foreshadows that pan it out. I guess it must be generic hints and foreshadows that the generic viewer didn't bother with because it's so generic.

For one thing, they have their hands on magic canceling rings, which just one episode ago said that no ordinary person, or even un ordinary group can get a hold of. Those things are almost completely military restricted by every country in the world.

Seems like your one who missed my point. I don't care whether any story agrees with my personal views or not. Otherwise I wouldn't be able enjoy some of favorite works such as Legend of Galactic Heroes. My problem is how the story has presented the issue by completely trivializing the other side with zero ambiguity. The whole idea of all the problems facing the Weeds at school being the work of foreign entities who champion nefarious ideal of equality instead just a fringe group who exacerbated the problems already there is what irks me and comes across as a cop-out.

What I'm getting from you and show instead is that those problems don't exist at all. Weeds have no issue about being talked down to and being unable to hold positions of importance beyond glorified Enforcers among other things. Everything is all shine & rainbows.

larethian

2014-05-12, 03:32

How about the fact that C2 students can't serve on student council or that they are forced wear uniforms that makes convenient targets of derogatory insults and the like based on stupid mistake that should have been corrected long ago? But that aside a bit your post actually just proved that there is discrimination. Whether it's coming from teens or adults, whether it's about race or ability, is irrelevant. Discrimination is discrimination, it shouldn't be sugarcoated or tolerated in whatever form it takes. It's poisonous to any social environment, especially in one that is supposed to be a a place of learning where futures are shaped. The fact this status quo is thought to superseded familial bonds as shown with Morisaki in ep 1 or allows the Blooms to feel that it is their inherent right to not show Weeds any respect as shown Hanzo in ep 2 is pretty telling about how abnormal and severe the problem is. What's even more egregious is despite the fact this isn't actually allowed by school regulations, the incompetent administrative staff does nothing to enforce that rule and lets such a culture foster.

Now we have the author later strawmanning the opposition (using Mibu as the symbol) who shouldn't of had trouble conveying such simple ideas. All so he could prop up some right-winged ideology by associating the other side with terrorists and completely undermine them instead of acknowledging that both sides had some merit regardless of whether some international organization ulterior motives might be involved or not. The entire thing is framed in such bluntly laughable biased narrowed fashion that I'm not going to bother taking Mahouka politics seriously at all.

I frankly I don't also buy that any of issues in that school are unsolvable, because they aren't. It just requires someone with brains and a effort to care to take the necessary steps to do so. Sure some of these changes may hurt in short term, but anything worth doing usually does especially when it comes to producing positive long term results.

I do not understand your need to criticize the author for a fictional setting. In the real world, incompetent governments and retarded systems exist as well. Racism and other forms of discrimination have also existed throughout history for what appeared to be retarded reasons to third parties. As to author's intent on his setup and how he thinks, how do you know? Based on what we know now, I suggest it's best to keep the criticism on the system itself or any other related fictional setting or the adaptation itself and leave the author out of the equation.

General comments not directed to Iron Maw specifically:
Anyway, can we just keep speculative comments on the anime alone and stop bringing up "the author this and the author that"? And let's stop making speculations sound as facts. In my opinion, I think these 2 things if persistently done and asserted in a strong manner should be seen as troll posts, since they are unfair comments and will surely bait people into 'warring'. I also find it somewhat disappointing that some viewers are quick to defend an adaptation whose source material they are familiar with, and having little tolerance to give the benefit of doubt or hold a "let's wait and see" view in the capacity of an anime-only viewer. Can't say I haven't been guilty of that, though I'll rectify that either by reading the source or shutting up for the rest of the series when I realized what I've done :heh:

Thanks for reading.

Iron Maw

2014-05-12, 03:44

karice67

2014-05-12, 04:32

Anyway, can we just keep speculative comments on the anime alone and stop bringing up "the author this and the author that"? And let's stop making speculations sound as facts. In my opinion, I think these 2 things if persistently done and asserted in a strong manner should be seen as troll posts, since they are unfair comments and will surely bait people into 'warring'. I also find it somewhat disappointing that some viewers are quick to defend an adaptation whose source material they are familiar with, and having little tolerance to give the benefit of doubt or hold a "let's wait and see" view in the capacity of an anime-only viewer. Can't say I haven't been guilty of that, though I'll rectify that either by reading the source or shutting up for the rest of the series when I realized what I've done :heh:

Thanks for reading.Well said. At the very least, I think that waiting until the end of each story arc might bring answers and explanations to at least some of the issues that people keep raising (though given that it is a 26 episode series, I wouldn't expect it to answer all the questions I have at this point either). I can understand that frustration might arise from the fact that, at 6 episodes and counting, this has been a pretty long opening arc (especially given what seems to be the standard practice of 'I'll give it three episodes to see whether it's a keeper'), but I personally quite like the fact that this show isn't about issues and themes that are resolved in just one, two or even three episodes. And I don't know about anyone else, but this arc does feel like it's coming to an end soon.

Mentar

2014-05-12, 04:39

With Miyuki, I think people should probably just accept that she's "A 100% yandere brocon with slight Yamato Nadeshiko tendencies, a nice character design, and cool powers. The End."

If you mean this in context of how the anime deals with her, I can understand your pessimism, but I think that eventually they won't be able to keep her "inner scenes" off the screen forever. They contain the depth which at this point in time is missing.

Faerie

2014-05-12, 05:20

General comments not directed to Iron Maw specifically:
Anyway, can we just keep speculative comments on the anime alone and stop bringing up "the author this and the author that"? And let's stop making speculations sound as facts. In my opinion, I think these 2 things if persistently done and asserted in a strong manner should be seen as troll posts, since they are unfair comments and will surely bait people into 'warring'. I also find it somewhat disappointing that some viewers are quick to defend an adaptation whose source material they are familiar with, and having little tolerance to give the benefit of doubt or hold a "let's wait and see" view in the capacity of an anime-only viewer. Can't say I haven't been guilty of that, though I'll rectify that either by reading the source or shutting up for the rest of the series when I realized what I've done :heh:

Thanks for reading.

I can only agree with this.

the one thing I would say is... Since the a lot of issues seem to stem from the author being quite inexperienced...

I don't really understand why companies let LN authors publish at such an early stage in their development and don't send them back to improve and come back later, or give them an iron fisted editor at least. Or at the very least, get one to iron out the kinks for an adaption. Controversy and negative opinion of the medium could be avoided..

But that aside, I agree with you :/

I also think anime viewers should be allowed to wait and see how things turn out and form opinions without LN readers breathing down our backs, telling us what we're allowed to think though :heh:
If people hold an opinion, based on what they've been shown, that should not be derided, simply because LN readers may hold a different opinion they formed based on a different medium.

Ultragunner

2014-05-12, 05:29

I do not understand your need to criticize the author for a fictional setting. In the real world, incompetent governments and retarded systems exist as well. Racism and other forms of discrimination have also existed throughout history for what appeared to be retarded reasons to third parties. As to author's intent on his setup and how he thinks, how do you know? Based on what we know now, I suggest it's best to keep the criticism on the system itself or any other related fictional setting or the adaptation itself and leave the author out of the equation.

General comments not directed to Iron Maw specifically:
Anyway, can we just keep speculative comments on the anime alone and stop bringing up "the author this and the author that"? And let's stop making speculations sound as facts. In my opinion, I think these 2 things if persistently done and asserted in a strong manner should be seen as troll posts, since they are unfair comments and will surely bait people into 'warring'. I also find it somewhat disappointing that some viewers are quick to defend an adaptation whose source material they are familiar with, and having little tolerance to give the benefit of doubt or hold a "let's wait and see" view in the capacity of an anime-only viewer. Can't say I haven't been guilty of that, though I'll rectify that either by reading the source or shutting up for the rest of the series when I realized what I've done :heh:

Thanks for reading.
Yay, word of wisedom :D

But to be honest, some of the comments from anime-only viewers do mention that: "the LN is badly written", or "the author seems to incompetent in writing about social relation",
or this the one thing I would say is... Since the a lot of issues seem to stem from the author being quite inexperienced...

I don't really understand why companies let LN authors publish at such an early stage in their development and don't send them back to improve and come back later, or give them an iron fisted editor at least. Or at the very least, get one to iron out the kinks for an adaption. Controversy and negative opinion of the medium could be avoided..

See? They ARE talking about the LN & Author so you can't expect some LN readers (who actually understand what the author and LN are going on about) to not voice their opinions :heh: :heh: :heh:

Both parties are at fault here

Of course, let's not stray from the main topic itself. From the angle of an anime viewer, I do agree that so far the show has been not too bad, but some parts do get sloppy treatment. Of course, there isn't such thing as perfect, but there ARE stuffs that can be changed easily for the sake of a comprehensive anime.

If I were a member of the team doing Mahouka anime, I would give some suggestions:

_ make more chibi specials!!!! really, you cannot expect anyone (except those who are familiar with the source material) to understand crap about the settings and especially the magic mechanics if you just breeze through them like nothing, it's like throwing a cake at blindfolded viewers and ask them to "eat it!".

We can put them together with the new episode PV, since we've already separate that from the actual episode.

Think of it like the "Mahouka Encyclopedia" - akin to the "Arrancar Encyclopedia" in Bleach

_ I'd rather cut some of Miyuki brocon moments (sorry Miyuki's fans) to give her some monologues

Kakurin

2014-05-12, 06:27

I also think anime viewers should be allowed to wait and see how things turn out and form opinions without LN readers breathing down our backs, telling us what we're allowed to think though :heh:
If people hold an opinion, based on what they've been shown, that should not be derided, simply because LN readers may hold a different opinion they formed based on a different medium.
This with the patience goes both ways though. I read the LNs at the same pace as the anime, so I can see the merits of both sides. However, there have also been comments very early saying how the shows boring, bad, has generic characters or so after one or two episodes. Or for this episode there has been with some an implicit assumption that what needs to be told about Mibu has already been told, that she's a naive and dumb kendo girl who has picked the wrong school, while the arc obviously still has another episode left.

Faerie

2014-05-12, 07:08

@ultragunner: that would be because I have indeed taken a look at the source material weeks ago already... At around episode three or so, I believe. Thus I made these observations based on the early volumes of the novel in parallel with the anime (and I think I have mentioned as much here and there) - so please don't take a quote of mine and attach a baseless claim like that to it.
You are free to make your point, and in some cases you might be right, just don't use a random quote of mine to try and substantiate it.
I have not and am not in the habit of making unsubstantiated claims on material that I have not myself seen, thankyouverymuch.
A good bit of the criticism I've had so far, while to a lesser extend could also be found in the novel and amounts to beginners mistakes. Some other things were the fault of the anime though, and it does make matters worse.

This with the patience goes both ways though. I read the LNs at the same pace as the anime, so I can see the merits of both sides. However, there have also been comments very early saying how the shows boring, bad, has generic characters or so after one or two episodes. Or for this episode there has been with some an implicit assumption that what needs to be told about Mibu has already been told, that she's a naive and dumb kendo girl who has picked the wrong school, while the arc obviously still has another episode left.

Well, I have indeed observed that the dumbing down of Mibu is displeasing, but as a component of the weak direction- don't tell me that after six episodes it is unjustified to make a preliminary judgement on how the show has presented itself so far. Personally, despite my criticism and despite of the show giving me almost no reason to, I'm still giving it a chance. I don't think any more can reasonably be expected from a viewer. ;)

And a viewer should nonetheless be able to criticise what they are being shown- including on an episode for episode basis- this is an episodediscussion thread, not the "praise Mahouka unconditionally" thread.
Even if it is an early or preliminary judgement. Viewers don't owe LN readers or the show anything. They are free to judge it, even if that judgement is early, rash or unfavourable in your opinion.
In the real world, and Tatsuya would likely agree, ironically, people don't have to stand around and wait to see if the underachiever project maybe, possibly, eventually turns out to be better than expected. They can, but they aren't expected to. It's an unequal world. You want success in a fast- paced, competitive environment like today's entertainment market? Better come out guns blazing. Don't crawl along, only to get up and run later. Run from the beginning. Don't make me give you a sympathy chance- viewers shouldn't have to tickle it's merits out of a show, as most people don't have the time or patience for that.
That said, I personally am giving it that sympathy chance, so don't bite my head off :heh:

The other things you mention about Mibu I personally haven't said, but I do agree that it would be best to see if there's something else to this and that's been my mentality week after week.
However, after six weeks, it's probably time to show some of it's supposed brilliance though. I can't begrudge people for running out of patience.

Ultragunner

2014-05-12, 08:54

Kakurin

2014-05-12, 09:58

And a viewer should nonetheless be able to criticise what they are being shown- including on an episode for episode basis- this is an episodediscussion thread, not the "praise Mahouka unconditionally" thread.
I wasn't denying discussions, I was part of a lengthy but healthy discussion over the issue of the school system myself. It's just slightly unfair to apply a general criticism solely to the LN readers, when there have been anime-only viewers who are / were quick to rush to judgements. And as far as I've seen there aren't many LN readers running around here these days and I haven't seen many cases of LN readers denying anime-only watchers their opinion. There always will be one or two unteachables, but that doesn't mean the average LN reader is breathing down your backs. A problem with Mahouka is indeed, as far as I can tell, that much in the LN is told via explanations and monologues which by default is challenging to translate into visuals without massive infodumps. I wish there would be more chibi explanation episodes that go along with the episodes. That the direction has been sometimes questionable (especially in regards to Miyuki and Ono-sensei) is something I can agree with, however. Oh, and about Mibu, I wasn't clear enough. I was specifically referring to the criticism due to the portrayal in the last episode. That she was naive has been developed over the episodes, that's right.

maplehurry

2014-05-12, 10:15

Are we at this BS again? This isn't even sitting at the back of the bus situation. It's a freakin uniform. And let's be realistic. "forced" wtf.

Going on clothing is the flimsiest argument of all the argument, is Mibu level goof up. It's all in your mind, why there the blank on your shoulder is derogatory.

Seriously there are many sides to this. Clothing is just...

Differentiation alone does not lead to discrimination, but it's one of the facilitator when there is prejudice among people.
So it's not responsible for how the problem arises, but it partly contributes to the worsening of a problem if the problem exists.

Some of the words that are officially derogatory in modern time were not derogatory back when they were first made.

Chosen_Hero

2014-05-12, 10:26

You missed my point, :heh:, what I am trying to say here is that if anyone bring up/criticize the LN or the author, then some LN readers will show up and discuss, this is expected but unfortunate because this is anime thread!!! :heh:

To be honest, I agree what many points of the anime so far. It's not too bad, not nothing great either

The biggest bummer so far in the anime is that despite getting the most screen time, Miyuki is somewhat the least developed. Erika is stealing the show as she has shown many differences aspects in personality: tomboyish, has a tendency to tease and get on others' nerve :heh:, extremely skilled in swormanship & kickass, has good insight, also maybe she has a past with Mari? Those are thing we get from Erika with so much less screen time than Miyuki. If they are trying to adapt page-to-page while cutting out stuffs, it is very likely that it will be a mess of confusion :heh:

Also take into account that the anime cut out an important part with Erika and Tatsuya, maybe not urgently important but still (it's being done to pretty much any girl that isn't Miyuki from what I've heard, which was expected). I'm actually waiting to see if they do it in the coming arcs (I bet they will).

itisjustme

2014-05-12, 10:30

The segregation between weeds and blooms is totally stupid when you think about it. Let's enroll 100 students but hey they won't have teachers. I mean lolwut. Might as well stay at home and look up the internet.

That there's cultural discrimination is understandable but that there's an actually continued material/functional segregation is plainly artificial as settings go.

Faerie

2014-05-12, 10:37

@Ultragunner: oh, I see :D I may have misunderstood you a little. There's
nothing wrong with LN readers discussing and giving their legitimate and reasoned opinion of course, I hope I didn't give such an impression.
It's only when LN readers go all thou must not speak anything but good about our lord and saviour Mahouka who is just deeply misunderstood by all you infidels but actually the most flawless literally work to ever grace this world with its presence :rolleyes: that it gets a bit ridiculous.
who are you, Miyuki? :heh:

I wasn't denying discussions, I was part of a lengthy but healthy discussion over the issue of the school system myself. It's just slightly unfair to apply a general criticism solely to the LN readers, when there have been anime-only viewers who are / were quick to rush to judgements. And as far as I've seen there aren't many LN readers running around here these days and I haven't seen many cases of LN readers denying anime-only watchers their opinion. There always will be one or two unteachables, but that doesn't mean the average LN reader is breathing down your backs. A problem with Mahouka is indeed, as far as I can tell, that much in the LN is told via explanations and monologues which by default is challenging to translate into visuals without massive infodumps. I wish there would be more chibi explanation episodes that go along with the episodes. That the direction has been sometimes questionable (especially in regards to Miyuki and Ono-sensei) is something I can agree with, however. Oh, and about Mibu, I wasn't clear enough. I was specifically referring to the criticism due to the portrayal in the last episode. That she was naive has been developed over the episodes, that's right.

I do agree with that! And I also agree that these days it's just a select few compared to a few weeks ago, when they immediately pounced and shower you with objections and pm's whenever something not entirely positive is said :heh:
But I'm not sure that further chibi episodes would solve the problem, rather than too much time being spend on unnecessary things and not enough effort put into tightening the plot or making the dialogue flow better. You can adapt even extensive or not quite perfect source material comprehensively, if you try.
I keep saying this, but a good, iron-fisted editor would have done wonders for this show.
A good adaption should improve on the source material's weaknesses, not highlight them- which unfortunately is what's happening here.

There's nothing wrong with Mibu being naive imo, and that's a weird criticism by itself. I do understand though if people are criticising how she was suddenly shown as apparently incapable of basic comprehension and needing to lean onto some dude she doesn't know's shoulder after receiving a frankly baffling and hilariously awkward speech from his sister :heh: - that whole development was bizarre and the anime should probably have handled it better.

Kakurin

2014-05-12, 10:44

Also take into account that the anime cut out an important part with Erika and Tatsuya, maybe not urgently important but still (it's being done to pretty much any girl that isn't Miyuki from what I've heard, which was expected). I'm actually waiting to see if they do it in the coming arcs (I bet they will).
Actually that part about Miyuki isn't quite right. She has gotten plenty of monologues that would have given her more shape cut herself.

The segregation between weeds and blooms is totally stupid when you think about it. Let's enroll 100 students but hey they won't have teachers. I mean lolwut. Might as well stay at home and look up the internet.
Please not this again... They are 100 years in the future, so for theoretical stuff they all have no teachers. The teachers are there for practical instructions. Due to the fact that the high school is subject of the university for magic they have to deliver results to receive funding, so they chose to focus on prioritising the top students. The Class 2 ones still make progress and they benefit from being at this school by having access to training facility and equipment, as well as the databases. Their learning progress is slower due to having to work out possible problems encountered on their own, but then again, their potential is also lower. The role in the whole context of the school is to serve as "reserves" for the class 1 guys. That doesn't mean, however, that they have no benefit attending. Even if they are Class 2 guys they are compared to non-magic users still elite and by graduating from this school they still have good future prospects (like Tatsuya or Mizuki by becoming engineers - who are sought-after people).

Chosen_Hero

2014-05-12, 10:49

Actually that part about Miyuki isn't quite right. She has gotten plenty of monologues that would have given her more shape cut herself.

Please not this again... They are 100 years in the future, so for theoretical stuff they all have no teachers. The teachers are there for practical instructions. Due to the fact that the high school is subject of the university for magic they have to deliver results to receive funding, so they chose to focus on prioritising the top students. The Class 2 ones still make progress and they benefit from being at this school by having access to training facility and equipment, as well as the databases. Their learning progress is slower due to having to work out possible problems encountered on their own, but then again, their potential is also lower. The role in the whole context of the school is to serve as "reserves" for the class 1 guys. That doesn't mean, however, that they have no benefit attending. Even if they are Class 2 guys they are compared to non-magic users still elite and by graduating from this school they still have good future prospects (like Tatsuya or Mizuki by becoming engineers - who are sought-after people).

But you can't deny that out of all of them she has had the least cut out.

Anyway don't mind me, since I'm not really following the anime that much apart from what I read from you guys, I read 9 volumes (I personally was bored, my opinion mind you din't take at face value) and had to put a stop to it, now I have this series on hold indefinitely or until something exciting happens that can bring me back.

(Waves hand) These are not the comments you are looking for, move along.:cool::heh:

itisjustme

2014-05-12, 11:06

Please not this again... They are 100 years in the future, so for theoretical stuff they all have no teachers. The teachers are there for practical instructions. Due to the fact that the high school is subject of the university for magic they have to deliver results to receive funding, so they chose to focus on prioritising the top students. The Class 2 ones still make progress and they benefit from being at this school by having access to training facility and equipment, as well as the databases. Their learning progress is slower due to having to work out possible problems encountered on their own, but then again, their potential is also lower. The role in the whole context of the school is to serve as "reserves" for the class 1 guys. That doesn't mean, however, that they have no benefit attending. Even if they are Class 2 guys they are compared to non-magic users still elite and by graduating from this school they still have good future prospects (like Tatsuya or Mizuki by becoming engineers - who are sought-after people).

...it boggles the mind that people even defend this. There are less than 2k students each year, you just leave half hanging like that? It's like Harvard or Oxford telling you hey you were bottom half so you won't have teachers, you can still use our labs and outdated computers though!

Human instruction is by far the most important thing in any school. Let's not get into why autodidactism is most often bad, but do you think governments across the globe would spend hundreds billion dollars on teacher salary if you could just learn from audio tapes/dvds/internet instead? Yet Japan doesn't have teachers for half of its most precious assets. I mean seriously lolwut.

Kakurin

2014-05-12, 11:28

...it boggles the mind that people even defend this. There are less than 2k students each year, you just leave half hanging like that? It's like Harvard or Oxford telling you hey you were bottom half so you won't have teachers, you can still use our labs and outdated computers though!

Human instruction is by far the most important thing in any school. Let's not get into why autodidactism is most often bad, but do you think governments across the globe would spend hundreds billion dollars on teacher salary if you could just learn from audio tapes/dvds/internet instead? Yet Japan doesn't have teachers for half of its most precious assets. I mean seriously lolwut.
It's a glass half-full or half-empty view. Your implicit assumption is that the school invites 200 students and leaves 100 hanging. It's the other way round. The school has capacity for 100, but invites another 100 to serve as reserves. The reserves on the other hand benefit by being able to graduate from a top-flight school, where they can expand their knowledge in magic (there is no magic school prior to high school). Outdated computers? The school has the newest equipment. The school CAD is only poor compared to individual CADs which by definition is superior for the individual person. Last but not least, they are 100 years in the future, who knows what education will look like in 2100. It is pretty questionable to use current standards onto a fictional setting that's moreover in a world much more advanced.

Ultragunner

2014-05-12, 11:30

...it boggles the mind that people even defend this. There are less than 2k students each year, you just leave half hanging like that? It's like Harvard or Oxford telling you hey you were bottom half so you won't have teachers, you can still use our labs and outdated computers though!

Human instruction is by far the most important thing in any school. Let's not get into why autodidactism is most often bad, but do you think governments across the globe would spend hundreds billion dollars on teacher salary if you could just learn from audio tapes/dvds/internet instead? Yet Japan doesn't have teachers for half of its most precious assets. I mean seriously lolwut.

*sign*, I mean, seriously? Like you say, there are less than 2k magic students each year, 2000 for the whole country!!!!!!!.
then, out of those 2k, how many will pursue the path of teaching while there is a whole bunch of other jobs? Of course the government can issue to have more magic teachers, but then it would decrease the manpower for other crucial facility like the military, university, research.

Let's put it this way, would you rather have only 100 magic graduate with full instructions , or those 100 PLUS another 100 who did not received instruction but they still manage to graduate?

Once again, the magic human resource is always in demand (2k per year is way too low for turnover), the government sees the current system works in their best interest (more magicians while maintaining the magic workforce in other area), so they just keep doing that despite that may not be the best for the students.

LKK

2014-05-12, 11:43

How does one simply butcher the phrasing of another person? If it was such an important moment, you'd think she would remember everything word for word. It just doesn't make any sense.

It would make more sense if she "misinterpreted" what Mari said if she presented it in a vague manner, but Mari was very clear in saying that Mari was no match for Mibu. Completely remembering a whole different phrasing on the other hand is just pure WTFBBQ moment for me. I don't get it.

Otherwise, nice episode. I love seeing Miyuki in action, and Tatsuya is just a badass at close hand-to-hand combat. And Chiba is pretty badass too :D
I don't find it so strange the Mibu had a wrong memory of what happened. I believe the key to understanding her mistake is in what the counselor told Tatsuya about Mibu. Mibu was having trouble reconciling being the national Junior champion and then testing in as a Course 2 level student when she enrolled. With that disjointed mindset, Mibu probably went into that school expecting to be mocked or discriminated against. Mibu looked down on Mibu; therefore, she expected everyone else to look down on Mibu as well. Her every encounter with a Course 1 student was probably colored by her down on herself mindset. Furthermore, Mibu has had over a year to distort and color her memories into their most negative interpretation. Add into that a year's worth of other Course 2 students' complaints and possible other interactions with discriminatory Course 1 students. That's a recipe for a memory alteration in my opinion.

itisjustme

2014-05-12, 11:54

It's a glass half-full or half-empty view. Your implicit assumption is that the school invites 200 students and leaves 100 hanging. It's the other way round. The school has capacity for 100, but invites another 100 to serve as reserves. The reserves on the other hand benefit by being able to graduate from a top-flight school, where they can expand their knowledge in magic (there is no magic school prior to high school). Outdated computers? The school has the newest equipment. The school CAD is only poor compared to individual CADs which by definition is superior for the individual person. Last but not least, they are 100 years in the future, who knows what education will look like in 2100. It is pretty questionable to use current standards onto a fictional setting that's moreover in a world much more advanced.

The whole concept of "reserve" is dumb. Why would you have 100 "reserve" rather than 100 more full fledged magicians? Across 3 schools that'd be a third more operational manpower each year! Again it's the country's most precious assets we're talking about, if you can have more you would do your damnest to have more. If you're expanding to 200 students you should prepare for more personnel, or at worst what almost every school does, cram your classes full and overwork your teachers. :P

What's the meaning of "graduating" if you're not receiving instruction? They can "expand their knowledge in magic" by staying at home all the same. Sure they are 75 years in the future but we had teachers in ancient Greece and we still have teachers now. The fundamental reason why self learning is bad for a bunch of average kids is because you're bound to basic mistakes without realizing it and then your fundamentals are wrong and it becomes ingrained and very difficult to correct afterwards. In a sense autodidactism is potentially worse than no education at all and it's got little to do with technology. (Also my Uni teacher used to say that the most important things they teach you aren't the actual courses but that's another matter)

*sign*, I mean, seriously? Like you say, there are less than 2k magic students each year, 2000 for the whole country!!!!!!!.
then, out of those 2k, how many will pursue the path of teaching while there is a whole bunch of other jobs? Of course the government can issue to have more magic teachers, but then it would decrease the manpower for other crucial facility like the military, university, research.

Let's put it this way, would you rather have only 100 magic graduate with full instructions , or those 100 PLUS another 100 who did not received instruction but they still manage to graduate?

Once again, the magic human resource is always in demand (2k per year is way too low for turnover), the government sees the current system works in their best interest (more magicians while maintaining the magic workforce in other area), so they just keep doing that despite that may not be the best for the students.

900 students are fine but you have 0 teacher to spare for 300 more? I know you read the LNs so you know limited teachers aren't the issue the LNs handwave this very issue and try to slip it under the carpet.

And again, what's the meaning of "graduating" if you don't receive education. :P

Let's be honest the only reason the segregation exists is to allow Tatsuya to be segregated so that he shines brighter when people find out how OP he is.

Kakurin

2014-05-12, 12:06

The whole concept of "reserve" is dumb. Why would you have 100 "reserve" rather than 100 more full fledged magicians?
Reserves in case one of the 100 class 1 students fall prey to accidents which is not uncommon. Then, the teaching staff is not enough to get another 100 "full-fledged" magicians (what is that by the way? no course 2 student shown up till now has trouble utilising magic.). Last, and perhaps most importantly, the potential of the bottom 100 is limited. If you spend let's say 100 hours on a course 2 student, you won't bring him to the same level as with let's say 50 hours on a course 1 student. If you are so keen on real-world examples, just take medicine. It is beneficial to have more doctors, but still many countries in the world maintain a high numerus clausus for medicine students. Or midwifes, some countries suffer from a lack of midwifes, but still maintain a need for higher education in order to qualify for this, severely restricting the pool. And these are jobs that aren't necessarily dependent on your genetical potential.

What's the meaning of "graduating" if you're not receiving instruction? They can "expand their knowledge in magic" by staying at home all the same.
Class 2 students have to graduate by doing exactly the same exams as the course 1 students. Therefore it is strange why you are deriding the worth of their graduation.

Ultragunner

2014-05-12, 12:24

The whole concept of "reserve" is dumb. Why would you have 100 "reserve" rather than 100 more full fledged magicians? Across 3 schools that'd be a third more operational manpower each year! Again it's the country's most precious assets we're talking about, if you can have more you would do your damnest to have more. If you're expanding to 200 students you should prepare for more personnel, or at worst what almost every school does, cram your classes full and overwork your teachers. :P

Yup, it is "dumb" but they kept it that way anyway. Also, they cannot increase the number of teachers by any mean other than delegating staffs from other principles.

This is what I think, the proper ratio of teacher/student is only maintained if there are only 100 students in First High. Then the government experimented for the first time some time ago, recruiting more students with magic abilities, they are given the same curriculum but with no direct instructors. For the government, they probably think it is better to have at least some education rather than NOTHING at all, which makes sense since magician is a rare breed in Mahouka.

After the first cohort graduated, those from Course 2 still possessed enough skill, for various tasks and jobs, though of course not on par with those from Course 1,
=> WALAAAHHH, they implement the system for real.

Hey, let's be honest here, this kind of "experiment" in education is not uncommon in real life.

And like I say, it doesn't matter if the students have any "real education" as long as the quota of magician is achieved. And if it somehow works in the government's perspective then there is no reason for them not to do it.

itisjustme

2014-05-12, 12:27

Reserves in case one of the 100 class 1 students fall prey to accidents which is not uncommon. Then, the teaching staff is not enough to get another 100 "full-fledged" magicians (what is that by the way? no course 2 student shown up till now has trouble utilising magic.). Last, and perhaps most importantly, the potential of the bottom 100 is limited. If you spend let's say 100 hours on a course 2 student, you won't bring him to the same level as with let's say 50 hours on a course 1 student. If you are so keen on real-world examples, just take medicine. It is beneficial to have more doctors, but still many countries in the world maintain a high numerus clausus for medicine students. Or midwifes, some countries suffer from a lack of midwifes, but still maintain a need for higher education in order to qualify for this, severely restricting the pool. And these are jobs that aren't necessarily dependent on your genetical potential.

I kinda forget how/what the anime explains vs the LNs now I got the two a bit mixed up. I don't remember how many accidents it's supposed to be but it's in the single digits iirc. Keeping students in reserve is a hilarious idea to me.

In any case, number of doctors/midwives is a budget issue. Why are you comparing it to magicians? As stated by Mahouka those are the country's most precious assets and come in very limited quantity to begin with. A country's power's basically measured by its magical pool.

Also what, there's no magical potential detector, all it's based on is an entrance test. And if they actually have something lacking in an area then that's what instruction is for in the first place.

[/QUOTE]Class 2 students have to graduate by doing exactly the same exams as the course 1 students. Therefore it is strange why you are deriding the worth of their graduation.[/QUOTE]

A graduation is here to validate your education. If you don't give them education, and worse voluntarily undermining their education, what's the point?

Kakurin

2014-05-13, 07:58

I kinda forget how/what the anime explains vs the LNs now I got the two a bit mixed up. I don't remember how many accidents it's supposed to be but it's in the single digits iirc. Keeping students in reserve is a hilarious idea to me.
Light novel passage:
Every year, the number of students who have dropped out as a result of being unable to use magic due to the shock of an accident is by no means small.

In any case, number of doctors/midwives is a budget issue. Why are you comparing it to magicians?
Where did you get the budget issue from? The number of doctors is independently from the budget restricted by the numerus clausus placed on medicine as a university major. In some countries this numerus clausus is very high, preventing suitable candidates from ever getting a chance in this country (which is why not few people then go into other countries where there is no numerus clausus to study there and return afterwards). Midwives is also no budget issue, the lack is partly created by placing a slightly ridiculous demand of having an university degree in order to be able to do this profession, which naturally prevents many people from doing it. Questionable (or even dumb) practices are everywhere in reality.

As stated by Mahouka those are the country's most precious assets and come in very limited quantity to begin with. A country's power's basically measured by its magical pool.
And in terms of magical power there is also a relation between quantity and quality. It is worth more for the country to have 1000 top-flight graduates and another 1000 for lower level tasks instead of having 2000 average ones.

Also what, there's no magical potential detector, all it's based on is an entrance test. And if they actually have something lacking in an area then that's what instruction is for in the first place.
More instruction won't increase your calculation capacity for magic for example. The potential is determined by genetics and as such the amount what can be improved is capped. You won't turn an amateur football player into a professional by giving him more coaching.

A graduation is here to validate your education. If you don't give them education, and worse voluntarily undermining their education, what's the point?
Education doesn't equal teacher. Autodidacticism is a valid concept, though it places high demands on self-discipline. A graduation certificate won't become less worth just because somebody didn't receive teaching guidance. I know plenty of people who never went into a lecture in university, yet went out with better grasp of the relevant issues and better grades than others who went into every lecture. So you are saying the certificate of the former is worthless because they never went to a professor / teacher?

Faerie

2014-05-13, 08:27

I don't find it so strange the Mibu had a wrong memory of what happened. I believe the key to understanding her mistake is in what the counselor told Tatsuya about Mibu. Mibu was having trouble reconciling being the national Junior champion and then testing in as a Course 2 level student when she enrolled. With that disjointed mindset, Mibu probably went into that school expecting to be mocked or discriminated against. Mibu looked down on Mibu; therefore, she expected everyone else to look down on Mibu as well. Her every encounter with a Course 1 student was probably colored by her down on herself mindset. Furthermore, Mibu has had over a year to distort and color her memories into their most negative interpretation. Add into that a year's worth of other Course 2 students' complaints and possible other interactions with discriminatory Course 1 students. That's a recipe for a memory alteration in my opinion.

I don't know. I saw it as more of a ham-fisted way to belittle the idiot who dare ask for equality, (The show of course Misunderstanding what equality means in the process), hammer home that very questionable rationale the show has been trying to instill. Tatsuya, Miyuki, Mayumi all have been working hard to drive the point home.
"it's all in your head, the inequality you speak of doesn't actually exist, the world is black and white, you stupid little thing, pick yourself up and deal, you're the only one discriminating against YOURSELF, get it? Get it? That was smart writing, right? rah rah".
If I had to pick one thing apart from the weak storytelling, it's the weak, pseudo-intellectual, almost toxic ideology being spewn around like venom in this show that I would bemoan.

You wouldn't half-heartedly listen to a conversation you valued very much, causing you to misremember. That whole thing was obviously important to her, I can hardly imagine someone not remembering it well, and likely going over it, dissecting it and analysing it.
it was as a cheap cop out of an explanation, imo, inserted to drive home a point and make the rest of the cast look good.

If this were a random, on-the-fly conversation she misremembered, I'd agree with you though. That is easily misremembered.

Kakurin

2014-05-13, 08:33

I get your complaint, but at this stage I can't say any more than be patient. It may in the end not change your outlook on this, but Mibu's story isn't finished, yet.

kagato3

2014-05-13, 08:45

itisjustme

2014-05-13, 09:10

Light novel passage:
Every year, the number of students who have dropped out as a result of being unable to use magic due to the shock of an accident is by no means small.

Look. You're trying to muddle the subject and argue side points. I don't know what constitute spoilers here so I won't go into details but the point is if you're going to quote the novels then you already know the LNs themselves invalidate your spin on it.

Let me elaborate a bit though. The whole thing is a ridiculous artificial setting to force a high school setting and force a segregation therein to the author to go oooh he's a weed but he was actually so OP!!

The idea of "reserve" is ridiculous on so many levels that you trying to defend it makes me think you want to defend mahouka no matter what first, and try to put a semi reasonable spin on it after, rather than look at it objectively. Yes there were and are some forms of numerus clausus in some countries, for religious/social/economical reasons (what I called budget) but they don't ask for "reserves" in case your premium students fail/drop out/opts for another career at the end, which happens pretty frequently too.

You go to school for the teachers like you go to the hospital for the doctors. If you have a brain tumor they put an experienced brain surgeon on your case; you don't get told your case is potentially too complex, but hey have our medical encyclopedia and our equipment and DIY. Just like an experienced and talented doc is needed in the worst cases, a good teacher is most important when your kid isn't a genius, and especially when he's lacking. My gf teaches trouble kids from immigration and many of them tell her that without her they wouldn't be where they are now. She's even inspired (too many) kids to be teachers themselves.

Now in Mahouka, indeed you don't need teachers. You don't need magic high schools at all. You're not taught magic before high school but the entrance exam is already about magic theory and practice. Lolwut. Actually, if it's based on genetics why have an exam or graduation at all. 1st year kids are already shown to be proficient in magic, they didn't need any school teaching, they're all from privileged families with better instruction and better CADs and better everything at home.

Now let's suppose they actually need the school. Why would you even argue that teaching those who need it the most would actually make the best students somehow worse? I could argue many things but I only need to say this: again if you're quoting the LNs then you already know it's written nowhere that the gov is unwilling to provide more teachers for the extra students. Actually they state the contrary, they just handwave all the logical issues with quite a ridiculous explanation.

TL;DR: The whole setting is totally artificial and no matter how you spin it the source material already contradicts you.

Ultragunner

2014-05-13, 09:31

Now in Mahouka, indeed you don't need teachers. You don't need magic high schools at all. You're not taught magic before high school but the entrance exam is already about magic theory and practice. Lolwut. Actually, if it's based on genetics why have an exam or graduation at all. 1st year kids are already shown to be proficient in magic, they didn't need any school teaching, they're all from privileged families with better instruction and better CADs and better everything at home.

Who told you that they weren't taught magic in junior high? Agreed that this hasn't been addressed in the ANIME, but the ANIME itself also has not stated anything about "there is no magic school before highschool". Both you and I can debate about this, but oh well....

TL;DR: The whole setting is totally artificial and no matter how you spin it the source material already contradicts you.
Look, he's not trying to defend anything. He's just trying to convey his opinion and understanding of the material. Sure he did quoted some lines from the LN which is unfortunate because this is an ANIME thread. I myself find his point plausible, even from the anime-only perspective.

In the end, you found the idea of "reserve" is hilarious, that I respect. BUT, IMO, it is not illogical from the viewpoint of the government, despite it is definitely not the best for the students.

I understand your point of "If there is no teacher, the better not do it!", but please allow me to express my opinion.

I don't like repeating myself, but I guess I'll quote my own comment since it's quite long LOL

This is what I think, the proper ratio of teacher/student is only maintained if there are only 100 students in First High. Then the government experimented for the first time some time ago, recruiting more students with magic abilities, they are given the same curriculum but with no direct instructors. For the government, they probably thought it was better for those kids to have at least some more education/training rather than NOTHING at all, which makes sense since magician is a rare breed in Mahouka.

After the first cohort graduated, those from Course 2 still possessed enough skill, for various tasks and jobs, though of course not on par with those from Course 1,
=> WALAAAHHH, they implement the system for real.

Hey, let's be honest here, this kind of "experiment" in education is not uncommon in real life.

And like I say, it doesn't matter if the students have any "real education" as long as the quota of magician is achieved. And if it somehow works in the government's perspective then there is no reason for them not to do it.

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 09:32

Where did you get the budget issue from? The number of doctors is independently from the budget restricted by the numerus clausus placed on medicine as a university major. In some countries this numerus clausus is very high, preventing suitable candidates from ever getting a chance in this country (which is why not few people then go into other countries where there is no numerus clausus to study there and return afterwards).

Well, it's not entirely independent of "budgets", since there will be that much additional spots of med students if a new med school opens up. Like 5 years ago, there's a new pharmacy school in Ontario when there was only one previously, and since then there's double the amount of pharmacy students.

Faerie

2014-05-13, 09:34

@sigup despite the entirely ridiculous proof to the contrary below, I'll chose to believe you for now. I'll probably regret it ;)

The teacher thing is a non issue, even Mibu doesn't see thatas unfair.
This whole argument would be moot had they not cut Erika's perspective of the teaching situation .
when asked if she thought not haveing teachers was unfair she replied no and compared it to sword training

That... Is completely made up nonsense that has no proper footing to stand on whatsoever. The only thing that proves is that the dude has never attempted any sport in a proper setting unless you count PE class (which you don't)
Indeed, there is an old school way of teaching that was kind of like that- where you're taught footwork (and, in the west, foil) for a year or so before you do anything else, but that is utterly antiquated and leads to sub-par results and a narrowing of your potential talent pool. Even in traditional programmes nowadays (I was part of one) they do more than stand the little kids in a corner and make them practice basics and keep the poor sops who didn't get bored out of their wits.
It doesn't work like that anymore, schools have moved on- because you'd lose the majority, if not all of your future medal potential to boredom if you taught this way.
They are also all taught in every single session- although mostly on a group basis, as little kids- you're talking 3-8 year olds, where individual technique lessons wouldn't yield much benefit. Iirc they even get to do some sparring, games, foam swords etc.
because if it's not fun, they don't stick around and you get some kinda diligent but not necessarily talented ones. If they don't stick around, they don't grow into medal winners.

If that's how they think, they're pretty backwards. There's a reason this thinking was abandoned in the real world.

The only thing delusional here aren't the people Erika accuses of it, it's the guy who writes and apparently actually believes this drivel :rolleyes:

HandofFate

2014-05-13, 09:38

The school has provides valuable research data, and general magic knowledge, their personal magic education is more specialized to their families specialties. So they benefit from learning all the common stuff in an intuition with their peers. Not to mention all the social and networking benefits which is half the reason for taking part in a formal education setting vs. homeschooling.

Still have no idea why people are so hung up on the teacher issue. In the world's explanation, the lack of teachers makes sense. All the talk in this issue on that is just "oh lack of teachers? just make more" as if that's any counter to it.

Personal responsibility for their education is more emphasized on the students. Its more like college than the babysitting high schools in US.

Yea you get teachers in college, but if you only come in and out of class, and just stare and obey the teacher's materials and do no research at all on your own in the field you're pursuing, you're going to find yourself as a statistic like the others that just go out of college with a piece of paper, and get a job @ Mcdonalds.

HandofFate

2014-05-13, 09:45

@sigup despite the entirely ridiculous proof to the contrary below, I'll chose to believe you for now. I'll probably regret it ;)

That... Is completely made up nonsense that has no proper footing to stand on whatsoever. The only thing that proves is that the dude has never attempted any sport in a proper setting unless you count PE class (which you don't)
Indeed, there is an old school way of teaching that was kind of like that- where you're taught footwork (and, in the west, foil) for a year or so before you do anything else, but that is utterly antiquated and leads to sub-par results and a narrowing of your potential talent pool. Even in traditional programmes nowadays (I was part of one) they do more than stand the little kids in a corner and make them practice basics and keep the poor sops who didn't get bored out of their wits.
It doesn't work like that anymore, schools have moved on- because you'd lose the majority, if not all of your future medal potential to boredom if you taught this way.
They are also all taught in every single session- although mostly on a group basis, as little kids- you're talking 3-8 year olds, where individual technique lessons wouldn't yield much benefit. Iirc they even get to do some sparring, games, foam swords etc.
because if it's not fun, they don't stick around and you get some kinda diligent but not necessarily talented ones. If they don't stick around, they don't grow into medal winners.

If that's how they think, they're pretty backwards. There's a reason this thinking was abandoned in the real world.

The only thing delusional here aren't the people Erika accuses of it, it's the guy who writes and apparently actually believes this drivel :rolleyes:

Yea, Erika's style is an old school type of Dojo culture. The points Erika brings up on why they do it makes logical sense though and really brings more insight to her character.
In these stories though, the old school styles with their history tend to be better than the modern mass-targeted dojos here.

Erika is suppose to be the dojo where you go to seriously learn from a master.

The modern way are McDojos where you send kids to get some exercise, and just pay your money to them to get their black belts in 2years.

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 10:12

In the world's explanation, the lack of teachers makes sense.

Hmm, it's kinda iffy. Because it's generally safer to be a teacher than say combatant. And since there's a high demand for teachers, their salary should be good. Then the only explanation would be that many are not "good enough" to be a teacher even if they are good enough to be a combatant. The math only really adds up if say out of all the 100 course 1 graduates from First High each year, only 5 of them is good enough to be a teacher.

IceHism

2014-05-13, 10:14

Hmm, it's kinda iffy. Because it's generally safer to be a teacher than an active combatants. And since there's a high demand for teachers, their salary should be good. Then the only explanation would be that many are not "good enough" to be a teacher even if they are good enough to be a combatant. The math only really adds up if say out of all the 100 course 1 graduates from First High, only 5 of them is good enough to be a teacher.

Because it is harder to be a teacher than a combatent.
Most magicians rather enter into the military anyways.

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 10:18

Still have no idea why people are so hung up on the teacher issue. In the world's explanation, the lack of teachers makes sense. All the talk in this issue on that is just "oh lack of teachers? just make more" as if that's any counter to it.

Personal responsibility for their education is more emphasized on the students. Its more like college than the babysitting high schools in US.

Yea you get teachers in college, but if you only come in and out of class, and just stare and obey the teacher's materials and do no research at all on your own in the field you're pursuing, you're going to find yourself as a statistic like the others that just go out of college with a piece of paper, and get a job @ Mcdonalds.

The reason people are hung up about the teachers is that it makes no sense. It is an artificial limit that exists to make the Weed exist so the MC can look better and the story could have a straw man to beat up.

The real problem with this show is that all the plot so far runs on one contrived excuse after another and that has gone on for 6 episodes so far and instead of getting better it gets more contrived as it goes along.

Ultragunner

2014-05-13, 10:19

^ well, sorry if you feel that way but I don't LOL. If the MC himself cares about the discrimination and speaks of "making it better" then yeah, both the show and the MC are boring and generic.

The thing is, it is not an excuse, a bit of exaggeration yeah but not excuse . Even if there were no Bloom/Weed thing, Tatsuya and his classmate would still suck at the practical test and those top scorers would still be @ssholes.

For me, the first whole arc seems to be dedicated to the establishment the characters which it has failed to deliver (at for me and many more). Let's put aside the supporting casts, what has we learned about our MC? Oh come on, please don't give me the "He's a Gary-Stue" crap, can't we dig a bit deeper? So far in the anime, we can see that he's smart and has good insight, he's also physically strong but weak in magic (general magic that is), he accepts who he is and doesn't really care about matters that do not involve him to some degree (in other words, he's quite detached) yet he does semm to have goal (remember the talk with Mizuki?). In addition, we get the feeling that he has some kind of dark/unpleasant past (an image of a woman flashed in his mind)...etc....

Because it is harder to be a teacher than a combatent.
Most magicians rather enter into the military anyways.
that's maybe one of the reason, you think people like Leo and Erika will become highschool teachers? :heh:. Not impossible but unlikely :heh:

Anime299

2014-05-13, 10:30

The teacher thing is a non issue, even Mibu doesn't see thatas unfair.
This whole argument would be moot had they not cut Erika's perspective of the teaching situation .
when asked if she thought not haveing teachers was unfair she replied no and compared it to sword training

Quote:
."Hm... Because I've always thought that it's so natural up to this point, so it's hard to explain...For example, in our dojo, the earliest we would teach any techniques to the students would be at least 6 months after enrollment."
"Oh."Tatsuya nodded his head with interest.Question marks floated above the heads of Honoka, Shizuku, and Mizuki.
"In the beginning, the only thing we teach is footwork and practice swings. After we demonstrate once, the rest is up to individual practice.Afterwards, we start teaching those that look like they've grasped the proper manner of swinging."
"...Then, wouldn't there be students that never improve no matter how much time has passed...?"
"Yes, that has happened."Erika nodded in response to Honoka's question.
"Next, those people have to relentlessly practice.Second, if your physical body isn't suited for waving a sword, then it would be a waste of time to impart any strong techniques anyways."
"Ah..." Mizuki quietly gasped.As she watched Mizuki, Erika continued to speak."Because of this, the only thing you can do is keep practicing your swings. Watch what other people do, and carve it into your memory.That is because you're surrounded by specialists of the sword.You're just wasting your time idling if you wait for someone to teach you.Only the utterly naive would believe that they could receive lessons from the start.Whether it's the Sensei or assistants, remember that everyone there is someone currently in training.Everyone has their own personal training regimen.Those that cannot learn from the people around them and solely rely on being taught, are utterly delusional."After she finished speaking, her eyes took on a tempting glint.

Ah, interesting. So we have Class 1 and Class 2-types in a dojo as well. Is this 'discrimination' as well? Don't think so. Most of what we've seen can be laid at the foot of individual conceit or individual self-pity in a highly charged, high pressure atmosphere of an elite school. The whole Blanche approach was to provoke the individual emotions of high-schoolers with a false argument in the first place to distract attention while they went after classified data. The arguments here in the forum for and against the issue of equality reflect the false basis for the attack in the first place. We're doing just what Blanche wants, ourselves, arguing about a false premise while they go for their target, instead of discussing the basis of Blanche, the possible use they plan for the classified data, and how it fits into the overall picture of Japanese National Defense. When people criticize the author for bringing his own conceptions to the storyline, don't forget to look into the mirror when you express yours...(I did, and I even took a selfie!!!):cool:

kagato3

2014-05-13, 10:37

Triple_R

2014-05-13, 10:38

The reason people are hung up about the teachers is that it makes no sense.

I disagree. I think it makes some sense, and I think that this particular plot element is getting massively blown out of proportions by some of the more critical viewers.

This school is essentially a super-soldier school. For all intents and purposes, they're training superheroes that work for the government. They're a government-run Xavier Institute on a much larger scale. It's producing massively important military/human resources for the Japanese government. Some of these students are essentially walking WMDs, and you definitely want to get the most you can out of these students (and you certainly don't want them turning out bad or failing). Others may simply make slightly above average soldiers - Nice if they reach their potential, but not a huge national loss if they don't. That's a big difference, which in my view could justify a classification/valuation difference.

IceHism

2014-05-13, 10:47

Ultragunner

2014-05-13, 10:48

I'm sure this has been explained already by this point. Magicians don't drop out or fail school because they want to or that they were lazy (actually, most students are extremely hard workers). They literally lose the ability to even use magic due to a trauma or other critical situations, hence why there are reserves.

good explanation, but they will come back with "it has not been stated by the anime" argument, so....:heh:

Okay, let's put it in another way. Perhaps some of you don't know, even I and my younger relatives have been constantly suffering from some of the models and decisions made by the government. I'm not trying to criticize anything, but sometimes you see some obviously illogical things get executed. From your perspective, it may be easy to tweak a thing or two to make our life easier, but it doesn't mean the government can see it that way, or at least they can't help it.

Coming from a similar background, I guess that's why I feel the things shown in the anime not illogical

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 11:05

I disagree. I think it makes some sense, and I think that this particular plot element is getting massively blown out of proportions by some of the more critical viewers.

This school is essentially a super-soldier school. For all intents and purposes, they're training superheroes that work for the government. They're a government-run Xavier Institute on a much larger scale. It's producing massively important military/human resources for the Japanese government. Some of these students are essentially walking WMDs, and you definitely want to get the most you can out of these students (and you certainly don't want them turning out bad or failing). Others may simply make slightly above average soldiers - Nice if they reach their potential, but not a huge national loss if they don't. That's a big difference, which in my view could justify a classification/valuation difference.

Pretty much everything you said there supports what I wrote. If they were just training everyone who made high enough on the entrance test and the rest went to some other school to learn how to not be a danger to themselves and others that would make sense. But the way it is now they are dumping at least some of those vital resources because if not the excuse that Weeds are backups is not true.

The more important Mages , the more needed they are , the more money they make, the more you need everyone of them, the more you are going to do to get teachers for them. Throwing money at them works well in the real world but if not some requirement for a period of teaching if you wanted to graduate would certainly work.

karice67

2014-05-13, 11:06

I don't know. I saw it as more of a ham-fisted way to belittle the idiot who dare ask for equality, (The show of course Misunderstanding what equality means in the process).

Putting aside everything else until the arc actually ends, I was just wondering: what do you think equality means, and how do you think the show is misunderstanding the concept?

IceHism

2014-05-13, 11:10

Equality is an iffy thing in general. I don't think any country in real life has true equality. If anything, the most common form of it is equality in opportunity. That's only equality to an extent but I think that is the general equality that most people refer to when they use the word.

I'm not sure we can use these western ideals to make connections to an extremely Japanese influenced show though... How do we know people just aren't reacting because of cultural shock from exaggerated Japanese culture.

itisjustme

2014-05-13, 11:20

Okay, let's put it in another way. Perhaps some of you don't know, even I and my younger relatives have been constantly suffering from some of the models and decisions made by the government. I'm not trying to criticize anything, but sometimes you see some obviously illogical things get executed. From your perspective, it may be easy to tweak a thing or two to make our life easier, but it doesn't mean the government can see it that way, or at least they can't help it.

Coming from a similar background, I guess that's why I feel the things shown in the anime not illogical

You know that's actually a good point. That said:

1) I don't think there's any real world example of leaving your students without teachers, let alone half your student base. It's a bit too big to swallow, at least for me and it looks a lot of others.

2) It's not the first nor the last thing that Mahouka asks you to swallow. One thing, ok why not, when they pile on you're like wth.

3) It's something the story actually makes a kinda big deal of. It's a big plot point of this arc for one thing. If you keep bringing it it's gonna make people keep thinking about it and realize the illogicality.

4) How it's treated. I mean instead of complaining that the government is being illogical like you are the main cast acts like everything's peachy. Then the opposition shows up and they're treated as dumb, naive, incompetent, villains and terrorist while the protagonists shoot them down.

HandofFate

2014-05-13, 11:30

Hmm, it's kinda iffy. Because it's generally safer to be a teacher than an active combatant. And since there's a high demand for teachers, their salary should be good. Then the only explanation would be that many are not "good enough" to be a teacher even if they are good enough to be a combatant. The math only really adds up if say out of all the 100 course 1 graduates from First High each year, only 5 of them is good enough to be a teacher.

That + to me, its just culture shock.
The future culture in Mahouka's world is that the importance of teachers is lesser than ours.

While for us, its all about "all teachers are underpaid, should be paid 100k+ salaries ect ect." and are given hero status for choosing to teach because they're sacrificing a bigger paycheck to raise your future.

Faerie

2014-05-13, 11:32

Yea, Erika's style is an old school type of Dojo culture. The points Erika brings up on why they do it makes logical sense though and really brings more insight to her character.
In these stories though, the old school styles with their history tend to be better than the modern mass-targeted dojos here.

Erika is suppose to be the dojo where you go to seriously learn from a master.

The modern way are McDojos where you send kids to get some exercise, and just pay your money to them to get their black belts in 2years.

It does explain her thinking. It's a poor way to excuse the ideology behind the setting though.

And no, the modern way doesn't amount to McDojo or McGym, whichever the case may be.
At least not over here. The ones I'm talking about produce world champions at all levels consistently, year after year. Nothing "get some exercise"-y about it. I imagine the same thing applies worldwide.
It definitely does for school kids and students in general. Antiquated methods aren't going to get your school that 90% A/A* average and justify the price tag on it, as the case may be.
What the extract mentions, that's where you send the kids to muck about. That's where it takes time and most of the talent doesn't bother. It doesn't produce competitive results in today's much faster-paced environment. Here are always exceptions of course.
The bar has risen, and constantly continues to rise. It is significantly higher now than it was decades ago, with the level of achievement reached using the old school methods.
Their effectiveness is but a romantic fiction. Nice thought, but not real.

Edit:

Putting aside everything else until the arc actually ends, I was just wondering: what do you think equality means, and how do you think the show is misunderstanding the concept?

Sorry, totally missed your post. Am in a bit of a hurry (shouldn't even be on here. Someone shoo me away please) and don't have time to elaborate on the particularities, as it's a complex concept, but this blog (http://moesucks.com/2014/05/10/mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei-ep-6-pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps/#more-18598) sums my thoughts on the topic up pretty darn well (better than I could, even), if you care for a critical read :)

Ultragunner

2014-05-13, 11:38

haha, well I guess the way the issue is portrayed in the anime lack delicacy, huh?

The thing is, right from the start, our MC - Tatsuya has made it very clear that the issue ISN'T an issue for him, it may be for other but not for him => for me the show is not trying to throw it at you like "ok, here is a serious issue, would you like to see more?", it's more like: "ok, this is kinda stupid, our MC says so as well, but would you like to see how he walks through this stupid mess?" haha :heh:

Perhaps it's just me, but now I tend to see things from a different angle to avoid the so-called "face-value". For example, I guess (and know) that there are a lot of people around that just make the comments like "oh the MC is F*cking OP!! What's the point? He'll just curstomp anyone", yet for me I'll say sth like: "Ok, so he's got a lot of power, what's he gonna do? Murder everyone? That ain't good!" :heh:

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 11:45

When people criticize the author for bringing his own conceptions to the storyline, don't forget to look into the mirror when you express yours...(I did, and I even took a selfie!!!):cool:

Or they can just read the afterwords in the LN that shed some light on the author's motivation, out of the author's own mouth.

HandofFate

2014-05-13, 11:46

It does explain her thinking. It's a poor way to excuse the ideology behind the setting though.

And no, the modern way doesn't amount to McDojo or McGym, whichever the case may be.
At least not over here. The ones I'm talking about produce world champions at all levels consistently, year after year. Nothing "get some exercise"-y about it. I imagine the same thing applies worldwide.
It definitely does for school kids and students in general. Antiquated methods aren't going to get you that 90% A/A* average.
What the extract mentions, that's where you send the kids to muck about. That's where it takes time and most of the talent doesn't bother. It doesn't produce competitive results in today's much faster-paced environment.
The bar has risen, and constantly continues to rise. It is significantly higher now than it was decades ago, with the level of achievement reached using the old school methods.
Their effectiveness is but a romantic fiction. Nice thought, but not real.

Yea, I agree its a romantic fiction, but I think the philosophical ideology it symbolizes is there.

The modern way is this way because its all just sports and trophy competitions now. Since its 'casual' you can take on any kind of student that has the money or time for it, and if they're good okay. If they're bad...okay. There's no downside to taking on anyone that walks in the door, because there's no risk.

Erika's dojo teaches a battleistic, no bs, kill or be killed mentality.
If the student isn't good or smart enough to progress on their own, they just cut them off instead of letting them bite off more than they can chew, and end up killing themselves.
After that, its up to the student to find a place more suited to their needs or tier.

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 11:54

You know that's actually a good point. That said:

1) I don't think there's any real world example of leaving your students without teachers, let alone half your student base. It's a bit too big to swallow, at least for me and it looks a lot of others.

2) It's not the first nor the last thing that Mahouka asks you to swallow. One thing, ok why not, when they pile on you're like wth.

3) It's something the story actually makes a kinda big deal of. It's a big plot point of this arc for one thing. If you keep bringing it it's gonna make people keep thinking about it and realize the illogicality.

4) How it's treated. I mean instead of complaining that the government is being illogical like you are the main cast acts like everything's peachy. Then the opposition shows up and they're treated as dumb, naive, incompetent, villains and terrorist while the protagonists shoot them down.

I just want to say that you did a much better job of stating how I feel then I did myself.

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 12:04

That + to me, its just culture shock.
The future culture in Mahouka's world is that the importance of teachers is lesser than ours.

I think it's mostly about "function". With each additional teacher, you can have an additional dozen course 1 students (who would be in course 2 otherwise) receiving help from the teacher. How much more can students benefit by having help from an actual teacher? That's the tradeoff.

Equality is an iffy thing in general. I don't think any country in real life has true equality.

Same goes for Freedom. No country in RL can be described as Libertarian Heaven.

kagato3

2014-05-13, 12:48

It all comes down to this. They only have enough teachers instruct 100 students per year well period.
Now they have basicly 3 options.
1 only teach 100 students with full coaching ect.
2 same as 1 but let in other students who get everything but the private coaching.
3 throw more students into the system then teachers can handle resulting in over worked teachers, lack of attention to individual students,. In other words subpar education for everyone.

Save for a few schools who were continuing the old traditions, these days, high schools did not employ the system of having homeroom teachers.Administrative circulars did not need to be handed out one by one, and besides, there was not that much extra budget to waste on such human resources, so the circulars were distributed through the terminals that were connected throughout the entire school.A system of having one terminal for school use assigned to each individual had already been in existence decades ago.Except for individual instruction or practical lessons, almost everything was done using the data terminals.If more care were needed, counselors who held expertise in multiple disciplines would be assigned by the school.So, the reason homerooms were needed was for the convenience of practical and experimental lessons. When practical and experimental lessons ended within time, so as not to have a time surplus, they needed somewhere to hold a certain number of people. (Notwithstanding, detention was a daily affair.)Besides, with the personal terminal system, it also made some things very convenient.No matter what background people came from, once the time they spent in the same room lengthened, they would mingle with one another naturally.

kukuru

2014-05-13, 12:56

So far there has been nothing that shows there are any "active combatants" . If Japan was in a current state of war I would think it would have been brought up by now. Also from Tatsuya's explanation most combat magic is somewhat less involved then the basic practice drills they are doing. It may be too soon to think that the military is the only or even the major job for mages.

Actually they did. In the 1st episode opening. Japan is in fact in a very heighten state of war like situation. (please watch episode 1 again anime viewers it's very obvious why magic high schools are so odd)

Again going back to the LN/anime controversy.

We can accept that LN can shove their noses down on anime only people is unfair, but it's also just as bad...

When anime-only viewers think they are right, when they simply haven't been observant enough to catch on to the clues drop through the episodes.

Sure LN people it's pretty much a hindsight approach, but that doesn't make anime viewers less liable to be completely wrong because they didn't watch carefully enough.

----
On the course1 course 2. Drop outs happen. Several times we have seen students on the verge of being expels (kirihara) for rule infractions. So it's not limited to accidents.

Of course you can be a magician without going to a magic school. There are obviously other directions (which of course will be explained eventually).

But it doesn't change the fact the magican community around the world and japan are very young and critical (Again 1st episode).

There is a reason why they went with course1 and course2, and even anime only viewers can guess what that is.

novalysis

2014-05-13, 13:26

Let me try my hand at a point by point rebuttal.

You know that's actually a good point. That said:

1) I don't think there's any real world example of leaving your students without teachers, let alone half your student base. It's a bit too big to swallow, at least for me and it looks a lot of others.

There isn't real world example, because the solution to the shortage of teachers is either to reduce school vacancies, or increase class sizes. Normally speaking, we should expect either option to be taken. But think for a moment about the setting of the Mahouka Universe.

1. Magic is a National resource, and a mark of national power and defensive capabilities. This is a world that has emerged from a World War where magic proved to be a critical resource for national survival. As such, all countries need every mage they can get their hands on. Reducing School Vacancies, is therefore not an option. A nation needs every mage she can get her hands on.

2. Increasing Class sizes is not an option. It compromises the quality of mages to an unacceptable degree, and mages are a scarce resource.

3. Presume that a more higher quality mage, yields several times more returns on average than a mage of lower quality, it makes sense to devote more resources to mages with higher potential.

4. There is a shortage of teachers - therefore, while a country needs all her mages, the country cannot afford to give the best quality education to all it's mages. Presumably, to maximize overall Mage quality, you should focus on the mages with the greatest potential.

The combination of these four factors rarely exist in Real-life. They do in the setting of Mahouka. Ultimately, the set up of education in Mahouka, is a compromise between competing priorities.

Considering all these competing requirements, the Magical education system decided that priority should be given to your best mages, with the highest potential. At the same time, advances in education has allowed for theoretical, traditional information based learning to be imparted without the need for a teacher.

As a result, we get the situation where half of the student population with the higher potential, receiving practical instruction.

2) It's not the first nor the last thing that Mahouka asks you to swallow. One thing, ok why not, when they pile on you're like wth.

You need to be more specific. What else is Mahouka asking you to swallow exactly? (Many other things, but I don't know what your exact contention is here).

3) It's something the story actually makes a kinda big deal of. It's a big plot point of this arc for one thing. If you keep bringing it it's gonna make people keep thinking about it and realize the illogicality.

Again, you need to be clear what logical flaws you are talking about here. Are you talking about logical flaws in Tatsuya's personal ideology, or are you talking about flaws in the flow of the plot? To the first, I don't see what is exactly the crime - infact, if those logical errors are so obvious, either the author is an idiot, or the author deliberately wrote those flaws in to point out to his readers, that Tatsuya's viewpoint is a biased viewpoint, and therefore, Tatsuya is not necessarily the most reliable of narrators.

You need to be more specific of what kind of flaws are there in plot-flows, or in other words, what kind of plot holes there are besides the set up of the education system. Simply arguing that they are obvious, is not a free pass.

4) How it's treated. I mean instead of complaining that the government is being illogical like you are the main cast acts like everything's peachy. Then the opposition shows up and they're treated as dumb, naive, incompetent, villains and terrorist while the protagonists shoot them down.

You are either referring to Mayumi's total demolition of the opposition (and I dislike the way the scene was executed)
parts of the speech were cut off, critical parts that makes the charge that the speech was a strawman difficult to sustain

Or, you are referring to Tatsuya's preaching to Mibu. Tatsuya isn't arguing that people arguing for all forms of equality is stupid, but rather, the notion of equality cannot be easily sustained in a world where magic seems to convey a blatant advantage over the rest of humanity. If Tatsuya's arguing that the disadvantaged should pick themselves by the bootstraps, he's merely arguing that they should do so not in pursuit of something inherently unattainable.

But rather, they should try to pursue their specialties to the utmost, because these specialties and diversities of abilities do have value, that a lack of ability of a certain definition of magic does not devalue. If anything, Tatsuya is defending diversity, and pointing the middle figure at the notion that the worth of a person, and meritocracy can be decided by a single homogeneous gauge. He is defending the Nail that sticks out, by arguing that each nail have their own unique talents that gives them self-worth in their own way, and they should never let their weaknesses undermine their strengths.

The reason why Tatsuya's logic is so problematic for us, is because we live in the real world in a society where we could claim that all man are created equal. Unfortunately, there's a very blatant disparity in capabilities between mages and non-mages, and "good" mages and weaker mages that makes our modern notion of equality patently untenable in the world of Mahouka. The author's aim, through Tatsuya, in my view, is to explore the ramifications of such a world, on the ideologies of it's inhabitants. Not to shove a particular world-view down our throats, because that worldview is founded in a world very much unlike our own.

kukuru

2014-05-13, 13:40

There is also the fact that the higher quality magician you devote into, they might proportionally give raise to the future generation of equality high quality magician.

At the same time it keeps your country well off if you hold some very powerful magicians in your country.

In terms of tactical nuke. Even if you have a crap load of nukes, you are more interested in creating better, stronger, more intimidating nukes.

Most old nukes or rather their delivery system in the modern world pales in comparison to the US in terms of speed, power, precision, and worse-case defense.

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 14:54

Let me try my hand at a point by point rebuttal.

There isn't real world example, because the solution to the shortage of teachers is either to reduce school vacancies, or increase class sizes. Normally speaking, we should expect either option to be taken. But think for a moment about the setting of the Mahouka Universe.

1. Magic is a National resource, and a mark of national power and defensive capabilities. This is a world that has emerged from a World War where magic proved to be a critical resource for national survival. As such, all countries need every mage they can get their hands on. Reducing School Vacancies, is therefore not an option. A nation needs every mage she can get her hands on.

2. Increasing Class sizes is not an option. It compromises the quality of mages to an unacceptable degree, and mages are a scarce resource.

3. Presume that a more higher quality mage, yields several times more returns on average than a mage of lower quality, it makes sense to devote more resources to mages with higher potential.

4. There is a shortage of teachers - therefore, while a country needs all her mages, the country cannot afford to give the best quality education to all it's mages. Presumably, to maximize overall Mage quality, you should focus on the mages with the greatest potential.

The combination of these four factors rarely exist in Real-life. They do in the setting of Mahouka. Ultimately, the set up of education in Mahouka, is a compromise between competing priorities.

Considering all these competing requirements, the Magical education system decided that priority should be given to your best mages, with the highest potential. At the same time, advances in education has allowed for theoretical, traditional information based learning to be imparted without the need for a teacher.

As a result, we get the situation where half of the student population with the higher potential, receiving practical instruction.

.

I have not read the novels but is there something magical about the number 100 that makes peoples magic ability fall off? I had been assuming that it followed some form of standard deviation since they call Weeds up to the majors when they need them. If it does then I would have liked it stated somewhere in the show.

Just going by what has been said on air I think you can make a better case for the whole system being set up to limit the number of fully trained Mages as opposed to what you write about.

Let us say that they have classroom sizes of 10. So you would need 10 more to teach all the Weeds at this school. So for that 10 Mages you get 10 more at least low level Blooms every year so you come out ahead very fast and all your Mages are trained so your depth in magic ability goes up as well.

IceHism

2014-05-13, 15:06

Anh_Minh

2014-05-13, 15:23

I wanna try to take a jab against the complaints against Erika's dojo system.

Yes, the dojo is a bit different than the current McDojos that we have today but I think the old Dojo is actually used more to obtain political power. It doesn't matter how many times you point to a world champion coming from a McDojo, world champions have always been exceptions. It didn't matter that they came from a McDojo, they would have done just as well in the old dojo system that Erika uses. But if we get rid of all the exceptions, we see that the McDojo produces many average to bad athletes as well while the old Dojo doesn't because the bad and average don't have the potential to be great and are cut from the system. Now its a matter of image, there's a complete difference between saying "this dojo has made some top notch warriors" and "this dojo has only made top notch warriors". With this the Chiba family in their mastery of kenjutsu and their proven disciple system has produced many top rating combat magicians that are without doubt a great help to the military and has helped them maintained a comfortable seat among the hundred families. Magicians are not allowed to hold public political offices and this is their method to build their own power / niche. In the context of this world, Erika's dojo is the most efficient method. Because the Chiba are so heavily respected, they pull ahead of everyone else's dojos through sheer support and userbase. In a world where magicians are so scarce and are part of the elite in society, this system produces the very best combat magicians with undeniable results.

Is the system elitist? Yes it is. Is it efficient? Yes it is.
Why is it logical?
1.Magicians hold considerable power over muggles but they are scarce and without a doubt, the elite in society
2.Magicians desire political power. This can only be done indirectly as directly holding power is not allowed. Making the military to depend on you gives this.
3.There are also far more fields that are needed than just close quarter combat magicians, using such an elitist system forces magicians that couldn't make it to try their potential elsewhere and they may be even far more useful in this different field than they could ever achieve in being a combat magician.

It's a system of maximum efficiency in distributing a limited resource while satisfying the selfish interests of an important mage family

That's assuming McDojo don't, for the same resources, produce just as many top-rated athletes, if not more. Which may not be warranted. A McDojo may produce all those, plus those mediocre guys you were talking about. I'll add that it's not just the world champions. Those who are naturally talented and hard-working (the two don't always go together) will also succeed anywhere.

It reminds me of a debate about school metrics here, in France (and I guess the same has occurred in many places). An old one was the success rate for the Baccalaureat (the diploma that says you can go to University). So of course, some schools gamed the system - they'd only allow those they were sure would succeed to take the exam under the school's name, and get 100% success. Others would only accept top students at the entrance of the high school itself.

So people came up with better metrics. Like, for example, how much more (or less) likely a student was to succeed, compared to the average for their socio-economic status. Or the success rate, not of those taking the exam, but of those who'd attended the school at all.

My point is, it's easy to take the cream of the crop and nurture them into competency. That doesn't make you a good school. Though there is something to be said for taking the ones with the highest potential, and trying to nurture them to the highest degree possible, I don't believe that's what they do in First High or in Erica's dojo.

And there's also something to be said for the mass production of competent people out of the mediocre masses.

Sorry, totally missed your post. Am in a bit of a hurry (shouldn't even be on here. Someone shoo me away please) and don't have time to elaborate on the particularities, as it's a complex concept, but this blog (http://moesucks.com/2014/05/10/mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei-ep-6-pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps/#more-18598) sums my thoughts on the topic up pretty darn well (better than I could, even), if you care for a critical read :)
I agree about how laughably the discrimination issues are presented and solved, but I don't think Mahouka's going for Libertarianism. If anything, it promotes aristocratic thinking.

Triple_R

2014-05-13, 15:38

Pretty much everything you said there supports what I wrote.

No, it doesn't. My argument, like novalysis' much more elaborate one, provides possible pragmatic explanation for why this mage school is set up the way it is.

You and other viewers may still not like this. It may still offend a viewer's egalitarian sensibilities. So I'm not arguing it's morally right. It might be morally wrong.

But real world governments make morally questionable decisions all the time when it comes to issues of national security. Which is to say that moral idealism (including egalitarian ideals) often gets thrown out the window when it comes to national security concerns.

And these mages are majorly important human/military resources, so those with the highest mage potential maximizing that potential (or at least coming close to that) is a very real national security concern. Now, getting something out of the next tier of mages would be nice, but it's not necessarily as essential, so it's not necessarily going to get the same level of support or resources dedicated to it as what we see with the highest tier of mages.

I honestly don't see what people find so hard about this at a basic believability level. Again, you don't have to like it. There's loads of elements in various sci-fi narratives that I take moral exception to, but that doesn't mean I have an issue with their basic believability.

If they were just training everyone who made high enough on the entrance test and the rest went to some other school to learn how to not be a danger to themselves and others that would make sense.

How would sending them to some other school help if that other school also has no teachers?

It's better for the Weeds to meet their age-peer Blooms because these are people they're likely going to be working with in the future (at least the successful Weeds and successful Blooms will).

Faerie

2014-05-13, 15:40

I wanna try to take a jab against the complaints against Erika's dojo system.

Yes, the dojo is a bit different than the current McDojos that we have today but I think the old Dojo is actually used more to obtain political power. It doesn't matter how many times you point to a world champion coming from a McDojo, world champions have always been exceptions. It didn't matter that they came from a McDojo, they would have done just as well in the old dojo system that Erika uses. But if we get rid of all the exceptions, we see that the McDojo produces many average to bad athletes as well while the old Dojo doesn't because the bad and average don't have the potential to be great and are cut from the system. Now its a matter of image, there's a complete difference between saying "this dojo has made some top notch warriors" and "this dojo has only made top notch warriors". With this the Chiba family in their mastery of kenjutsu and their proven disciple system has produced many top rating combat magicians that are without doubt a great help to the military and has helped them maintained a comfortable seat among the hundred families. Magicians are not allowed to hold public political offices and this is their method to build their own power / niche. In the context of this world, Erika's dojo is the most efficient method. Because the Chiba are so heavily respected, they pull ahead of everyone else's dojos through sheer support and userbase. In a world where magicians are so scarce and are part of the elite in society, this system produces the very best combat magicians with undeniable results.

Is the system elitist? Yes it is. Is it efficient? Yes it is.
Why is it logical?
1.Magicians hold considerable power over muggles but they are scarce and without a doubt, the elite in society
2.Magicians desire political power. This can only be done indirectly as directly holding power is not allowed. Making the military to depend on you gives this.
3.There are also far more fields that are needed than just close quarter combat magicians, using such an elitist system forces magicians that couldn't make it to try their potential elsewhere and they may be even far more useful in this different field than they could ever achieve in being a combat magician.

It's a system of maximum efficiency in distributing a limited resource while satisfying the selfish interests of an important mage family

I think you need to abandon the McDojo terminology, because it is a fallacy in the first place. Anh Min is entirely correct with their response as well, so I'll only try to add my two cents to that:

You might also benefit from reading up on the history of how teaching of sword-related martial arts evolved from the traditional repetition of basic footwork for a year or so to the modern variant and what kind of improvements were made as a result.

For one. You have a higher retention rate, as kids don't drop out because of boredom. You also have an increase in quality, as kids who have been sparring and receiving teaching for years naturally have a head start over those who only practiced footwork until their brains bled from the boredom.
In the first place, the ones the traditional system retains are NOT per se the talented ones. They are only the ones who can do a repetitive task over and over. They are not necessarily the ones who will later grasp tactics, have the right personality or otherwise be found to be the next best talent.
In fact. You are likely to be weeding out the biggest talent, by losing the innovative thinkers and the real cream of the crop to boredom.

And no, producing high levels of skill is not an exception in a designated modern way of teaching. The club I was at before I retires consistently produced high flyers,year after year after year and was consistently successful in all age categories.
Yes. You get those who turn out average. Or who only do it for fun. But you can absolutely not determine that which one is which solely based on their performance as little kids, or during their beginner days.
I don't think any or just few of the people I know who have gone on to be internationally successful would have emerged from that oh-so-great old system, simply because it would not have stimulated them enough to want to do it.

Like I said there is a good reason why this system was abandoned- it consistently lost the chola their best talent.

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 16:00

I honestly don't see what people find so hard about this at a basic believability level. Again, you don't have to like it. There's loads of elements in various sci-fi narratives that I take moral exception to, but that doesn't mean I have an issue with their basic believability.

How would sending them to some other school help if that other school also has no teachers?

It's better for the Weeds to meet their age-peer Blooms because these are people they're likely going to be working with in the future (at least the successful Weeds and successful Blooms will).

I must not have been making myself clear. I am not making a moral argument against the school. I am saying that think it is designed very badly to carry out its stated purpose.

kukuru

2014-05-13, 16:12

I think people are making the assumption that magic can be "taught" equally. Like I can make a scrub magician into a super star aka Kenichi where hard work and superior teachers work out.

But that's a heavy assumption. More so if you think magician A can do what magician B can do, which it has clearly not shown.

Let's put it an easier way. If you have 100 tanks, and I have 10 tanks and 1 jet fighter...

Despite the overwhelming difference in power, my one jet makes you quiver in fear. It's just not comparable to throw numbers on the table.

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 16:28

Anh_Minh

2014-05-13, 16:31

No, it doesn't. My argument, like novalysis' much more elaborate one, provides possible pragmatic explanation for why this mage school is set up the way it is.

You and other viewers may still not like this. It may still offend a viewer's egalitarian sensibilities. So I'm not arguing it's morally right. It might be morally wrong.

But real world governments make morally questionable decisions all the time when it comes to issues of national security. Which is to say that moral idealism (including egalitarian ideals) often gets thrown out the window when it comes to national security concerns.

And these mages are majorly important human/military resources, so those with the highest mage potential maximizing that potential (or at least coming close to that) is a very real national security concern. Now, getting something out of the next tier of mages would be nice, but it's not necessarily as essential, so it's not necessarily going to get the same level of support or resources dedicated to it as what we see with the highest tier of mages.

I honestly don't see what people find so hard about this at a basic believability level. Again, you don't have to like it. There's loads of elements in various sci-fi narratives that I take moral exception to, but that doesn't mean I have an issue with their basic believability.
And I don't know why you think it's our argument. I don't care about the morals either. They're more or less at war, or under the threat of war, and if they don't produce the best magicians, they'll be annihilated. Fine, I can work with that. If I believed the way to do that was to throw half the kids into a volcano, then I'd tell them to throw the kids into a volcano.

I just don't believe their system is anywhere close to the best. So what we have is, in my eyes, deficient and needlessly cruel. Emphasis on "needlessly".

Basically, they bet it all on the high school entrance exam. If you succeed there, you're a Course 1 and will lead a "blessed" school life. If not, you're a Weed, and that's it. Where is the competition? Why do a few days' performance determine so much? What motivation does any of them have to do their best? The Course 1 can lord it over the Course 2 no matter what, and the Course 2 just have to take it until graduation.

Besides, it looks to me like they're wasting that oh-so-precious resource of the teachers' time. Some students will profit more from having teachers than others, but it's not entirely skill-based. There will be Course 1 students who just won't need that much attention, and who'd get bored if they got it.

kagato3

2014-05-13, 16:40

I must not have been making myself clear. I am not making a moral argument against the school. I am saying that think it is designed very badly to carry out its stated purpose.

There are flat out no more teachers. Useing the existing teachers to train more students will only degrade the usefulness of the existing teachers to below acceptable levels.
The options are again.
1. teach 100 students with full coaching ect.
2 same as 1 but let in other students who get everything but the private coaching.
3 throw more students into the system then teachers or equipment can handle resulting in over worked teachers and alack of attention to individual students,. In other words subpar education for everyone.

3 is too wasteful. 1 is too limiting. Your statements are based on not haveing a very limited number of resources, which is clearly the not the case here.

kagato3

2014-05-13, 17:00

And I don't know why you think it's our argument. I don't care about the morals either. They're more or less at war, or under the threat of war, and if they don't produce the best magicians, they'll be annihilated. Fine, I can work with that. If I believed the way to do that was to throw half the kids into a volcano, then I'd tell them to throw the kids into a volcano.

I just don't believe their system is anywhere close to the best. So what we have is, in my eyes, deficient and needlessly cruel. Emphasis on "needlessly".

Basically, they bet it all on the high school entrance exam. If you succeed there, you're a Course 1 and will lead a "blessed" school life. If not, you're a Weed, and that's it. Where is the competition? Why do a few days' performance determine so much? What motivation does any of them have to do their best? The Course 1 can lord it over the Course 2 no matter what, and the Course 2 just have to take it until graduation.

Besides, it looks to me like they're wasting that oh-so-precious resource of the teachers' time. Some students will profit more from having teachers than others, but it's not entirely skill-based. There will be Course 1 students who just won't need that much attention, and who'd get bored if they got it.

Any and all cruelty is created by the students themselves. As for teachers wasting their time helping people that do not need it given the large sizes of the classes something like that is taken in acount First magic high is the best school and hardest to get into in Japan no matter which course a student is in. anyone that was able to get into it could easily get into any of the other 8 schools of which only 2 others have a second course.

Triple_R

2014-05-13, 17:00

And I don't know why you think it's our argument.

Partly because I don't see much reason to attack the very believability of this school's setup, so moral objections make more sense to me than purely logical ones. I've seen loads of narrative elements in sci-fi far more questionable than this at a basic believability level, and yet many of them never resulted in this level of reader/viewer critique. So why is this seemingly such a big deal to some people?

I just don't believe their system is anywhere close to the best.

Something doesn't have to be the best/ideal in order to simply be believable. In fact, an argument could be made that something being the best/ideal makes it less believable. "Too good to be true" and all that.

Basically, they bet it all on the high school entrance exam.

Yes, and American post-secondary institutions tend to rely heavily on the SATs. This anime shifts things a few years down, but it's much the same concept. People are screened based on how they do on standardized testing. There's nothing at all strange about that. It's not perfect, but it's very commonplace. The only difference here is instead of a test being used strictly to screen people totally out, it's used to screen people into one of two different Course groupings.

Where is the competition? Why do a few days' performance determine so much?

When I graduated high school back in 1999, my final exams counted for roughly 50% of my final mark. Final exams were administered over a few days, so they meant that a few days' performance count for a lot. To the best of my knowledge, this was fairly standard throughout Canada as a whole, and probably America as well. And I haven't heard of it changing much.

What motivation does any of them have to do their best?

For Course 1s, they'd want to live up to their test score. Their parents/legal guardians will likely expect that of them.

For Course 2s, they now have something to prove. A little bit of adversity can be a good thing for a person to have to fight through.

guestuser

2014-05-13, 17:18

have any one thought of this reason
the population of magicians in mahouka it is a round 30000+ around the world and do u know who is next to japan who have the highest population and not on friendly term with japan with the way it is they have more magicians more weapons and resources than japan so to counter this japan focus on quality over quantity because they will never out beat that country with the little magicians they have so they focus on making better quality magicians so this could be a reason

Anh_Minh

2014-05-13, 17:19

Partly because I don't see much reason to attack the very believability of this school's setup, so moral objections make more sense to me than purely logical ones. I've seen loads of narrative elements in sci-fi far more questionable than this at a basic believability level, and yet many of them never resulted in this level of reader/viewer critique. So why is this seemingly such a big deal to some people?
Because we're being forcefed the idea that such a system is just and efficient. To contrast with Black Bullet, for example: they also live with injustice and inefficiency, in part justified by a very real fear of annihilation. But the story doesn't present it as "right". It's a dystopia, and presented as such.

(And no, I'm not trying to say Course 2 students have it remotely as bad as Cursed Children.)

Something doesn't have to be the best/ideal in order to simply be believable. In fact, an argument could be made that something being the best/ideal makes it less believable. "Too good to be true" and all that.

Yes, and American post-secondary institutions tend to rely heavily on the SATs. This anime shifts things a few years down, but it's much the same concept. People are screened based on how they do on standardized testing. There's nothing at all strange about that. It's not perfect, but it's very commonplace. The only difference here is instead of a test being used strictly to screen people totally out, it's used to screen people into one of two different Course groupings.

When I graduated high school back in 1999, my final exams counted for roughly 50% of my final mark. Final exams were administered over a few days, so they meant that a few days' performance count for a lot. To the best of my knowledge, this was fairly standard throughout Canada as a whole, and probably America as well. And I haven't heard of it changing much.

And that sort of thing is fine with the numbers involved. A few kids will pass through the cracks, but you can afford the attrition. And if you tried to truly give the best to each child, you'd quickly hit diminishing returns. It's not like you actually need every PhD. Plenty of them can't find jobs in their fields.

In Mahouka, there's only 1200 students a year nationally, and everything is justified by the preciousness of magicians as a resource. So, yeah, I wish they'd try a bit harder.

kagato3

2014-05-13, 17:48

Because we're being forcefed the idea that such a system is just and efficient. To contrast with Black Bullet, for example: they also live with injustice and inefficiency, in part justified by a very real fear of annihilation. But the story doesn't present it as "right". It's a dystopia, and presented as such.

(And no, I'm not trying to say Course 2 students have it remotely as bad as Cursed Children.)

And that sort of thing is fine with the numbers involved. A few kids will pass through the cracks, but you can afford the attrition. And if you tried to truly give the best to each child, you'd quickly hit diminishing returns. It's not like you actually need every PhD. Plenty of them can't find jobs in their fields.

In Mahouka, there's only 1200 students a year nationally, and everything is justified by the preciousness of magicians as a resource. So, yeah, I wish they'd try a bit harder.
You are completely ignoring the fact that has repeatedly been adressed in the anime that there are not enough qualified teachers. Not a single course 2 student has expressed any sense of unfairness that they do not get teachers. Don't you think that would have been a majoor point in the debate if anyone felt it was discrimination? No they were complaining about club funding which they turned out to be wrong about.

Do you think that the third string players on a sports team not getting the same level of personal coaching is discrimination? Because that is basically what this is.

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 18:01

It doesn't matter how many times you point to a world champion coming from a McDojo, world champions have always been exceptions. It didn't matter that they came from a McDojo, they would have done just as well in the old dojo system that Erika uses. But if we get rid of all the exceptions, we see that the McDojo produces many average to bad athletes as well while the old Dojo doesn't because the bad and average don't have the potential to be great and are cut from the system. Now its a matter of image,

As far as RL McDojo goes, it's a matter of monetary profit... They try hard to create a champion so that their McDojo would gain more fame, which leads to more students and more money. Having more students (and thus profit) IS THE GOAL for a RL McDojo.... It's a business model for maximizing monetary profit. With the extra money, you can appeal to other champions to join your McDojo, and the cycle goes on.

Because we're being forcefed the idea that such a system is just and efficient. To contrast with Black Bullet, for example: they also live with injustice and inefficiency, in part justified by a very real fear of annihilation. But the story doesn't present it as "right". It's a dystopia, and presented as such.

(And no, I'm not trying to say Course 2 students have it remotely as bad as Cursed Children.)

lol, you sure Triple_7 has been following Black Bullet this season ?

Magewolf

2014-05-13, 18:03

You are completely ignoring the fact that has repeatedly been adressed in the anime that there are not enough qualified teachers. Not a single course 2 student has expressed any sense of unfairness that they do not get teachers. Don't you think that would have been a majoor point in the debate if anyone felt it was discrimination? No they were complaining about club funding which they turned out to be wrong about.

Do you think that the third string players on a sports team not getting the same level of personal coaching is discrimination? Because that is basically what this is.

I think the sticking point in this argument is the lack of teachers either you are willing to just accept the fact or you look at that and say that is stupid and incredibly unrealistic. And since all the plot so far flows from the lack of teachers if you find that hard to believe , you find the whole show to be built on sand.

If the show was strong enough it could bull through that and carry itself on characterization, action, or humor. But so far the only thing it really has going for it is character designs.

kukuru

2014-05-13, 18:19

Back to the "if the plot doesn't fit my views, the plot must suck" again eh?

kagato3

2014-05-13, 18:27

I think the sticking point in this argument is the lack of teachers either you are willing to just accept the fact or you look at that and say that is stupid and incredibly unrealistic. And since all the plot so far flows from the lack of teachers if you find that hard to believe , you find the whole show to be built on sand.

If the show was strong enough it could bull through that and carry itself on characterization, action, or humor. But so far the only thing it really has going for it is character designs.

Then maybe people are getting the wrong idea of what a teacher of magic is. They aren't lecturers they would be closer to martial arts instructor. Able to analyze a students performance and show them where they are making mistakes and clearly demonstrate how to use other techniques. Add to that the atack seems to indacate there is a bit of personal style in magic as well. These are not skills just anyone could do. So the idea that that pool of people is extremely small is reasonable.

Triple_R

2014-05-13, 18:54

Because we're being forcefed the idea that such a system is just and efficient.

That's not how I interpret it. My interpretation of how the system is being presented is that "It's not perfect, but it's tolerable". I don't have a significant problem with that presentation.

I think the sticking point in this argument is the lack of teachers either you are willing to just accept the fact or you look at that and say that is stupid and incredibly unrealistic.

No, some of us aren't simply "willing to just accept that fact". Some of us honestly don't think it's unusually stupid and incredibly unrealistic. I don't see anything that unrealistic about this school's setup. There's nothing unrealistic whatsoever about a system that's less than perfect. Frankly, I don't think that you and those who agree with you on this topic have made all that compelling a case here.

Then maybe people are getting the wrong idea of what a teacher of magic is. They aren't lecturers they would be closer to martial arts instructor. Able to analyze a students performance and show them where they are making mistakes and clearly demonstrate how to use other techniques. Add to that the atack seems to indacate there is a bit of personal style in magic as well. These are not skills just anyone could do. So the idea that that pool of people is extremely small is reasonable.

Agreed. Good post.

Ickarium

2014-05-13, 19:11

Pretty much how I feel. No, the system is not perfect. Nor are you supposed to think it's perfect. But it's not the black hole of suck and evil discrimination some people seem to want it to be, either. Heck, I want to make one or two comments, but have to wait till the next plot arc to do so. ;P

Triple_R

2014-05-13, 19:15

If people think this school system is bad, they should watch Psycho-Pass.

Now that has a very bad system. Although even with Psycho-Pass' system, I can kind of understand why it came into being.

itisjustme

2014-05-13, 20:11

Let me try my hand at a point by point rebuttal.

Sorry I was answering Ultragunner's point about governments often making dubious decisions for political or other reasons. I have written at length a couple pages ago about most issues you're pointing out and I don't wanna spend my life in a forum typing the same things again. :P

To the first, I don't see what is exactly the crime - infact, if those logical errors are so obvious, either the author is an idiot, or the author deliberately wrote those flaws in to point out to his readers, that Tatsuya's viewpoint is a biased viewpoint, and therefore, Tatsuya is not necessarily the most reliable of narrators..

Here's an important point though. Politics have shown us that you can put a seemingly reasonable and positive spin on everything. You and other posters (I believe in good faith for most of you) go at great length in explaining why it could be like this, from speculation to after-fact rationalization and so forth. I believe for most people it stems from liking Mahouka and wanting to defend it; that stance says: it must make some sense so let's try to explain it.

What people like me say is: The premises and certain plot elements aren't born of careful and rational world building and character building. Rather they are artificially contrived and forcefully manipulated to make Tatsuya look cool and OP. Then Mahouka adds a spin on things to give them their own logic and an illusion of rationality that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.

Btw I'm not pulling this entirely out of thin air, it's actual psychological stuff teach real teachers.

The reason why Tatsuya's logic is so problematic for us, is because we live in the real world in a society where we could claim that all man are created equal. Unfortunately, there's a very blatant disparity in capabilities between mages and non-mages, and "good" mages and weaker mages that makes our modern notion of equality patently untenable in the world of Mahouka. The author's aim, through Tatsuya, in my view, is to explore the ramifications of such a world, on the ideologies of it's inhabitants. Not to shove a particular world-view down our throats, because that worldview is founded in a world very much unlike our own.

We have millenia of human history to guide us. I don't think the introduction of magic is going to change basic human psychology somehow.

No one is saying that people are all born and treated equal. The real world behaves the same way as Mahouka. Some people are born stronger, some are smarter, some are wealthier, and education after high school level, and especially employment, are very much selective.

I read something nice about this from I think Orson Scott Card it was: you can't say, this is magic and this is the future, so common sense doesn't apply anymore. Especially in fantasy, where the premises already ask for suspension of disbelief from the audience, you need even stronger logic and common sense within the rules you laid.

novalysis

2014-05-13, 20:12

Honestly speaking, I get the impression that the School System is intentionally flawed. The author isn't interested in creating ideal systems, but rather, asking, from the Japanese context, what would happen to Japanese society, education system and more, if Magic was real, a Science, genetically based, and hereditary.

His first port of call is to explore a possible system of education in such a world, lens through current features and quirks of the Japanese education culture. So, in comes the all important exam, and so on and so forth. It does not have to be an optimal system, indeed, he is pessimistic as to the prospects of an optimal system in this scenario.

And, yes, I'm not surprised that Mahouka offends our notions of equality. For one, the Western anime Audience tends to lean towards the progressive and liberal side, so, Mahouka deciding to touch on the berserk button of equality so early on produced rather explosive reactions. Were Mahouka a Western work, I imagine the author would have touched on equality much later.

There are generally two ways to look at Mahouka. Either you assume that the author genuinely believes what he says, and is using Tatsuya as a pulpit to preach his ideology. Secondly, you could assume that the author isn't concern with preaching an ideology, but rather, exploring the ideologies of the inhabitants in his scenario, using Tatsuya as a sample set.

The fundamental premise of Mahouka asks what a world where magic is real, Scientifically studied and hereditary would look like, from a Japanese conservative lens. In this case then, the Mega-Corps of Shadowrun are replaced with Clans, while the State remains important, because of external threats.

Mahouka's exploration of equality has a very important starting point that I think most people miss. Our current notion of equality and human rights is rooted on the notion, that on some level, all of us are "created equal", with the same "essence." The problem in Mahouka's society, is that the idea that all man are created equal cannot exist with the reality that some people are born with blatant, inherent advantages, in their ability to use magic.

But rather than going down the old tired road of looking at how the victims of such inequalities look at the resulting society, Mahouka decides to go down the other road, and instead look at what kind of ideologies and beliefs that the beneficiaries of Mahouka's premise subscribe to.

I don't think we are suppose to agree with Tatsuya here. The contradictions in his views to me, seem to be yet another world-building device, by showing the ideological foundations of the society of Mages in Mahouka.

itisjustme

2014-05-13, 21:08

There are flat out no more teachers. Useing the existing teachers to train more students will only degrade the usefulness of the existing teachers to below acceptable levels.

Not only is that a ridiculous argument but it's plainly untrue that there are no more teachers. They don't have enough teachers _right now_ in the school for mysterious and illogical reasons. If you're going to quote the novels then the novels actually say the teachers "didn't materialize for some reason".

Not a single course 2 student has expressed any sense of unfairness that they do not get teachers. Don't you think that would have been a majoor point in the debate if anyone felt it was discrimination?

Or maybe artificial contrived set up and bad writing.

Do you think that the third string players on a sports team not getting the same level of personal coaching is discrimination? Because that is basically what this is.

1) They get some coaching not zero. 2) You can use only a limited amount of players in a sport team in competition. You can use any amount of qualified magician, the more the better. That comparison is invalid.

Then maybe people are getting the wrong idea of what a teacher of magic is. They aren't lecturers they would be closer to martial arts instructor.

They have magic theory and magic practice. How's that different? Your school teachers never made you practice and instruct you when you're wrong?

If people think this school system is bad, they should watch Psycho-Pass.

Now that has a very bad system. Although even with Psycho-Pass' system, I can kind of understand why it came into being.

The difference is the system in Psycho Pass makes sense within the premise of their world.

Honestly speaking, I get the impression that the School System is intentionally flawed. The author isn't interested in creating ideal systems, but rather, asking, from the Japanese context, what would happen to Japanese society, education system and more, if Magic was real, a Science, genetically based, and hereditary.

Again this is speculation and putting words in the show/author's mouth. It would actually be interesting but I don't get any vibe that it is the case within the content and presentation of the show/novels.

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 21:09

Then maybe people are getting the wrong idea of what a teacher of magic is. They aren't lecturers they would be closer to martial arts instructor. Able to analyze a students performance and show them where they are making mistakes and clearly demonstrate how to use other techniques. Add to that the atack seems to indacate there is a bit of personal style in magic as well. These are not skills just anyone could do. So the idea that that pool of people is extremely small is reasonable.

5% can be considered rare, 7% can also be considered rare, though in the later case "everyone" can have teachers for this year.

But when there does exist 7% of magicians of becoming teachers, the schools would then admit even more reserve students, and once again, there won't be enough teachers. The system is designed such that even when there's enough teachers this year, there won't be enough for next year.

karice67

2014-05-13, 21:27

I've been wondering for a while: how many people here are familiar with the Japanese school system?

Consider what Triple_R (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=5118866#post5118866) wrote about the US and Canadian systems, do people expect the Japanese system to be the same? It is not, and I'll be frank: what they've done with magic schools in Mahouka's universe makes sense based on what Japan does now.

Here is some context about the CURRENT (i.e. 1990s-2010s) school system in Japan, with a few key points highlighted.

Until junior high school (grades 7-9 or thereabouts, or the first few years of secondary school), students who go to public/government-run schools are allocated to schools based on where they live. I'm not sure if they are only allowed to enrol in one school or in whichever school in the area, but it's restricted to some extent. (Of course, it's a completely different matter if we're talking about private schools.)

However, to get into a public senior high school (grades 10-12, A-levels etc), they have to take a high-school entrance exam for their first choice of school. Each school sets their own entrance exam, so the difference in academic achievement and perceived academic potential can be and is enormous, and it only grows bigger over the course of the three years they spend there, because each school sets its own curriculum based on the level of the students they receive. And even within each school, students can be streamed into the 'special' stream and the 'normal' stream.

At the end of this, students at the top schools will take university/college entrance exams for the top unis (Tokyo etc), whilst students at lower level schools will generally aim lower. For example, people at the school I taught at celebrated if students got into the reputable universities in the prefecture - that was regarded as a fantastic achievement for them.

-----

I do not want to critique the current Japanese educational system here, but hopefully, the above gives the background for why Mahouka's system might have evolved the way it did. I hope it's also clear why I decided to highlight the point about the different curriculums that senior high schools in Japan have; there are even different curriculums within schools, based on the level of ability and motivation that different students are perceived to have. Based on this, the fact that both Course 1 and Course 2 students are delivered the same curriculum is quite significant. Though it doesn't explain the instructor thing, of course

But I don't think it's reasonable to assume that modes of teaching etc are the same or even similar to what we have now. Anyone who has studied teaching can probably tell you that, even within the last 20-30 years, lots of things have changed; so 80 years on, I'd say there are a few believable changes, such as the fact that the curriculum is being delivered through interactive media. From what I understand, this is the norm throughout Japan in the world of Mahouka, even in non-magical schools.

Which links into kagato's point:
Then maybe people are getting the wrong idea of what a teacher of magic is. They aren't lecturers they would be closer to martial arts instructor. Able to analyze a students performance and show them where they are making mistakes and clearly demonstrate how to use other techniques. Add to that the atack seems to indacate there is a bit of personal style in magic as well. These are not skills just anyone could do. So the idea that that pool of people is extremely small is reasonable.

I personally do not know what they do, though I believe it will be revealed later in the anime/novels, but the instructors that Course 1 students get are not 'teachers' in the sense that most of us know.

Sorry, totally missed your post. Am in a bit of a hurry (shouldn't even be on here. Someone shoo me away please) and don't have time to elaborate on the particularities, as it's a complex concept, but this blog (http://moesucks.com/2014/05/10/mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei-ep-6-pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps/#more-18598) sums my thoughts on the topic up pretty darn well (better than I could, even), if you care for a critical read :)
I'll be honest: that post seems quite polemical to me, and it sounds like the blogger is conflating 'equality/inequality' and 'discrimination', which are actually different issues, even though they're related. I don't suppose you have read what Stilts over on Random Curiosity wrote about it? That is roughly what I got from the way these issues have been covered in the show so far, beginning with an observation that Tatsuya made in episode 1 about how the Course 1 AND Course 2 students have segregated themselves. The characters all acknowledge that inequality and discrimination exists, as do we: where I think they (and viewers) differ is on what can or should be done to overcome these issues.

novalysis's post also resonates with me.

But I also shouldn't be here, so I shall leave this until at least the weekend, when the next episode is out.

itisjustme

2014-05-13, 21:44

Here is some context about the CURRENT (i.e. 1990s-2010s) school system in Japan, with a few key points highlighted.

Until junior high school (grades 7-9 or thereabouts, or the first few years of secondary school), students who go to public/government-run schools are allocated to schools based on where they live. I'm not sure if they are only allowed to enrol in one school or in whichever school in the area, but it's restricted to some extent. (Of course, it's a completely different matter if we're talking about private schools.)

However, to get into a public senior high school (grades 10-12, A-levels etc), they have to take a high-school entrance exam for their first choice of school. Each school sets their own entrance exam, so the difference in academic achievement and perceived academic potential can be and is enormous, and it only grows bigger over the course of the three years they spend there, because each school sets its own curriculum based on the level of the students they receive. And even within each school, students can be streamed into the 'special' stream and the 'normal' stream.

At the end of this, students at the top schools will take university/college entrance exams for the top unis (Tokyo etc), whilst students at lower level schools will generally aim lower. For example, people at the school I taught at celebrated if students got into the reputable universities in the prefecture - that was regarded as a fantastic achievement for them.

Filtering by level is nothing unique to Japan though. AFAIK most countries do it after high school level and there are plenty of filtering mechanics at high school/preparatory school level in other countries.

I think you can't compare "we'll separate the kids depending on their levels" and "people with low score on the test will have no teacher at all". Mahouka already has 9 high school and 1st high is like Oxford HS. It's like saying you're an elite for getting into Oxford but you made it bottom half so you won't have teachers to teach you. Should have had a lower score and enrolled in another school instead sux2bu.

Moreover the fundamental difference here is that people with strong enough magic to make it into the magic high schools are very rare and very precious and important assets for your country's power and international standing. Logic would dictate that you'd try to nurture all of them as much as you can.

kagato3

2014-05-13, 21:46

Not only is that a ridiculous argument but it's plainly untrue that there are no more teachers. They don't have enough teachers _right now_ in the school for mysterious and illogical reasons. If you're going to quote the novels

I'm not quoting the novel but the officially translated Chibisode found here.
http://mahouka.us/special/#s01

karice67

2014-05-13, 21:48

I think you can't compare "we'll separate the kids depending on their levels" and "people with low score on the test will have no teacher at all". Mahouka already has 9 high school and 1st high is like Oxford HS. It's like saying you're an elite for getting into Oxford but you made it bottom half so you won't have teachers to teach you. Should have had a lower score and enrolled in another school instead sux2bu..
Did you read the next part of my post, as well as the posts of all the other people who have given more background on the general and magical school system in Mahouka's Japan? Because just by this paragraph, it doesn't sound like you have. That, or you are content with looking at the systems in this series completely through the lens of your own beliefs and experiences about education. If the latter is the case, then let's just agree to disagree.

itisjustme

2014-05-13, 22:08

Did you read the next part of my post, as well as the posts of all the other people who have given more background on the general and magical school system in Mahouka's Japan? Because just by this paragraph, it doesn't sound like you have. That, or you are content with looking at the systems in this series completely through the lens of your own beliefs and experiences about education. If the latter is the case, then let's just agree to disagree.

Yes i have read your post and others. I have read the novels. What is your point? If you are content to look at the system and think Mahouka says it is like that so it's like that and it makes vaguely sense if we handwave it, then yes let's agree to disagree.

Yes I'm looking at this with my own experience with education and belief;so are you. What other prism is there really for any person? I'm also looking at real world evidence because this is the only reference we have. I have a gf who is a teacher; I have a father who is a uni lecturer/conference speaker. I have many teacher friends. I myself have even gone through 2 years of PhD where it was just me doing research by myself mostly so I know what this is like.

It simply boils down to this point, and if you are a teacher you should know this as well: there is no education without teachers. Multimedia teaching already exists, online/long distance cursuses already exist, separation by level already exists. Teaching without actual teacher input in a school environment doesn't exist and if you are a teacher you should know as well that kids who haven't been taught the fundamentals right will often have irremediable lacks in the future. Actually since this is magic we're talking about they might even become dangerous instead. Teachers also teach you more than what's in the schoolbooks.

AC-Phoenix

2014-05-13, 22:10

I'm not quoting the novel but the officially translated Chibisode found here.
http://mahouka.us/special/#s01

Tatsuya folding his arms and saying fine somehow reminded me on Edgeworth :heh:

maplehurry

2014-05-13, 22:43

Any and all cruelty is created by the students themselves.

It's known that there's risk among course 1 students injuring themselves to the point they would lose their magic forever. I can only imagine this risk being higher for course 2 without instructor. In a way, it's "fair game" since they made the choice themselves, but also keep in mind they were only around 15 when they have to make such decision. I can also imagine that some of the students(among both course 1 and course 2) were forced to enter the magic school due to their parents' pressure. That's not an uncommon thing for Asian parents from what I have heard.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-14, 00:37

You are completely ignoring the fact that has repeatedly been adressed in the anime that there are not enough qualified teachers. Not a single course 2 student has expressed any sense of unfairness that they do not get teachers. Don't you think that would have been a majoor point in the debate if anyone felt it was discrimination? No they were complaining about club funding which they turned out to be wrong about.

And you're ignoring the fact that it was never my problem. I do think the teacher man-hours they have are under-utilized by focusing solely on Course 1 at the complete exclusion of Course 2, but that's far from my biggest beef with the system.

You're denying the school is discriminatory against Course 2, when the discrimination is plain to see. Even Miyuki was pissed at it, though of course she was pissed it happened to Tatsuya rather than it happening at all.

You're hiding behind the fact that almost all the unpleasantness comes from students. But the school has a duty to fight that sort of thing, not subtly encourage it.

That's not how I interpret it. My interpretation of how the system is being presented is that "It's not perfect, but it's tolerable". I don't have a significant problem with that presentation.

And yet anyone who dares to criticize it (badly) is Wrong, Naive, and/or a Terrorist. Our oh-so-perfect MC said so, and indeed that's what we see: the protestors are morons unable to bring valid points. They have to wait for Mayumi, the superior being from the magician aristocracy, to promote their interests for them.

PredatorVMT

2014-05-14, 00:46

So the entire premise of the "discrimination" that Mibu faced was actually a misunderstanding?:eyespin:

Its a little concerning that everyone else who isn't part of the main cast gets portrayed as completely incompetent and stupid (all of that awesomeness seem to have been redirected into Tatsuya alone). The "terrorist" group launching an attack without consideration of magic user's counterattacks, the "weed" students who could not even put up proper examples of why they felt discriminated against during the debate, and then the ultimate scapegoat, Mibu, who went from good intentions, easy to manipulate person to a downright stupid one.

I know that some contrast must exist in order to make something standout (Tatsuya) but this seems really ridiculous at this point. Now he somehow decides that he will be raiding the base of operations for the terrorists? I can already see his near-flawless victory on the horizon. :heh:

There are few detiails in the LN can explain this:

1. The terrorist has considered the retaliation from the mage students. That's why they prepared Antinite rings.

2. The terrorist has the "magic warfare" division in form of course 2 students.

3. BUT Tatsuya's intel provides Public-MC head-up about a possible terrorist attack so they monitored and apprehend the Blanche-affiliate "weed" students quickly before they can do anything.

4. Their objective is stealing Magic Research (hint, hint), winning combat or not is not their concern. They failed because Tatsuya is the unknown factor who knocks down a reinforce door and reverts their hacking process to 0% in a matter of seconds.

...
I am not going to be banned, am i?

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 00:47

Cool episodes. The fights were okay but a bit more tame than expected from a terrorist attack.

Mibu's character seemed like an interesting concept but they pretty much killed her chance to shine by how they handled her suppossed skills. Everyone was talking about how awesome she was in kend yet Erika defeated her rather easily.

That being said the main conflict on the story looks pretty interesting. Seems like this series is more ambitious in actually looking at the ramifications and consequences born from a magic-based society and how the potential existence of anti-magic can threaten it. In that regard it's already doing abetter job than Nanoha StrikerS and Nanoha FORCE.

PredatorVMT

2014-05-14, 01:04

karice67

2014-05-14, 01:12

It simply boils down to this point, and if you are a teacher you should know this as well: there is no education without teachers. Multimedia teaching already exists, online/long distance cursuses already exist, separation by level already exists. Teaching without actual teacher input in a school environment doesn't exist and if you are a teacher you should know as well that kids who haven't been taught the fundamentals right will often have irremediable lacks in the future. Actually since this is magic we're talking about they might even become dangerous instead. Teachers also teach you more than what's in the schoolbooks.

Actually, no, that's not necessarily true. I have been a teacher, a self-learner and am also doing a research degree. And I can see how an interactive media curriculum can be set up to be more effective than the teachers I worked with in Japan (and presumably, teachers in other countries too), depending also on what the students are like. Of course, it has to be developed to be effective, which I assume is difficult. But they have had another 80 years on us.

Besides that, the second line I have bolded implies an assumption that the whole point of going to school is to receive instruction from a teacher. This also isn't necessarily true, at least, not in Japan.

As for the magical part (i.e. instruction on how to do magic), it seems like they have to know how to perform magic in order to get into the school in the first place (otherwise they'd go to another, 'normal' school), so they appear to get basic magical training outside of school.

If you have info. from the novels that directly contradicts any of this, then we can only wait until the anime actually covers (or does not cover) those parts. (Or go to the novel forum.)

Yes I'm looking at this with my own experience with education and belief;so are you. What other prism is there really for any person?
Critical thinking. Thinking outside of the institutions and frameworks in which we have been raised and schooled, to consider how else things might be.

But in any case, I'm happy to keep agreeing to disagree, and I'll just echo Triple_R: there's been way too much focus on this given how little anime viewers actually know about the system.

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 01:15

Everyone was talking about how awesome she was in kend yet Erika defeated her rather easily.
A couple of points to consider here, Erika is actually an expert in swordfighting. The OP should have given enough of a clue in this regard. Then the revelation about her being part of the Chiba family, who are renowned for their prowess wielding the sword. Last but not least, Erika utilised magic whereas Mibu did not. It's basically the difference between kendo and kenjutsu. As shown earlier, Kirihara wasn't a match for Mibu without magic, but when he activated his magic Mibu was severely disadvantaged.

About that education only with teacher part, who knows how education will look like in 2100. Perhaps in 2100 no school with have teachers and education will be conducted via an AI program that's assigned to every student. As long as this program is set up efficiently it is easy to imagine how this could be even more effective than having teachers (of whom by the way there will be never enough to do individualised teaching in a world with universal education). Mahouka can be criticised by not explaining properly how teaching without teachers works in detail, but then again this isn't the focus of the series and as a matter of fact Mahouka already has more than enough infodumps, albeit primarily concerned with magic. What can't be said, however, is that teaching without teacher some 80 years in the future is implausible as such.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 01:20

The fun part is that even Erika was aboard the "Mibu is awesome at kendo" bandwagon.

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 01:26

The fun part is that even Erika was aboard the "Mibu is awesome at kendo" bandwagon.
Why was it funny? I already explained, Mibu is excellent in kendo, but in terms of swordfighting Erika belongs to the top group. Besides, you miss the issue: The difference between kendo and kenjutsu. Erika did not best Mibu using swordfighting alone. She utilised magic. To make it clear, Erika was using kenjutsu, whereas Mibu was utilising kendo. Kirihara was defeated by Mibu (who didn't look like she went all out) when they were fighting using pure skill, but when he activated his magic Mibu had a tough time getting away. It shows that in the world of Mahouka magic trumps physical skill.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 01:31

Still waiting for the obligatory Badass Normal character this kind of shows usually have. You know the kind of guy who hand their butts to superpowered people using only human skills, guerrilla tactics and cool equipement/gadgets.

Tatsuya doesn't count because even if weak he still uses magic. And the less we say about Mibu the better.

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 01:46

PredatorVMT

2014-05-14, 01:48

The reason people are hung up about the teachers is that it makes no sense. It is an artificial limit that exists to make the Weed exist so the MC can look better and the story could have a straw man to beat up.

The real problem with this show is that all the plot so far runs on one contrived excuse after another and that has gone on for 6 episodes so far and instead of getting better it gets more contrived as it goes along.

LMAO.
Artificial limit? Made by whom? "The author"? Aren't all the works the same?
"The author" is the guy even "artificial" creates the world, "artificial" power-up the character to solve problems after they do something incredibly stupid (Highschoold DxD), "artificial" creates the plot.

Are you the guy that love the "power as the plot demands, generally after some "friendship is magic" speech and my MC must be weaker than everyone" shows?
I suggest you drop this.
I can recommend you something suits your taste: Sailor-moon, any mahou-shoujo works, Fate/StayNight, Toaru Majutsu no Index, Highschool DxD.
Those would be some great power-fantasy works for you.

kukuru

2014-05-14, 02:20

As for the magical part (i.e. instruction on how to do magic), it seems like they have to know how to perform magic in order to get into the school in the first place (otherwise they'd go to another, 'normal' school), so they appear to get basic magical training outside of school.

If you have info. from the novels that directly contradicts any of this, then we can only wait until the anime actually covers (or does not cover) those parts. (Or go to the novel forum.)

While it's certain easier to talk with the LN as a manuscript, we can, but we don't have to, we have Tatsuya sensei here even in the anime.

It is very true that magic is like a martial arts, but much deeper. It is in a whole different dimension of extra sensory activity.

For instance, the magic sequence. It is talk at a lot, and first and for most, to even teach magic practically you have to at least "see" magic sequences. No teacher can do that without being a magician and considering how people are "Wow" at Tatsuya's level of reading, it's a very tough skill.

Thus not only do magic teachers have to be magicians, they have to be darn good magicians, that want to teach ( many other possible jobs they must be available to them).

Then we have theoretical practice. Aka combat, or using of magic. Tatsuya explain the "step" system, aka quazi-logic-physics. One step magic to push, one to slow down, one to stop, and one to let it reset, etc.

To teach student "techniques" and thus many many steps and types, the magic teacher has to at least be able to do it themselves, and worse yet, they have to teach be able to be as proficient as the student, or it's kind hard to explain something you can't do (See ep4 where Tatsuya explains he can never do complicated steps magic sequences).

Finally, like martial arts, students can do self-taught aka interactive AI courses (epi 3-4). Course 2 student can do their practice on a machine. It's still practical, just like doing a Kata all day in a dojo.

And this is where Course1 students really shine. They are talented, they are smart, and they can do what course2 students are doing with their eyes closed.

If a teacher says "here's a 43 step technique, practice it" A course 1 student would probably be able to do it, but a course2, like Tatsuya who's limit is 6? Forget the teacher, go practice on the machine.

Look at ep6:
Tatsuya hops up the balcony. I assume it's a 2-4 step sequence. Accelerate-decelerate, stop, repeat or something like that

Look at Miyuki, she freaking flies up there. Probably much much more complicated sequence, that requires acceleration, contant motion, lifting, maintaining stable fields, and who knows what magical lingo there is.

There are a lot of hints littered through the anime, even without the LN. Some people just don't want to actually "think on it" and tunnel vision their views.

PredatorVMT

2014-05-14, 03:31

The reason why Sayaka "missunderstood" is because she probably is mind-controlled.

It is shown in this episode and previous episode, she questioned her actions which conflict to her cause: The scene where she doesn't want to steal magic research because she only wants to erase the discrimination, but somehow she would kindly do it anyway.

pampz21

2014-05-14, 04:34

Why was it funny? I already explained, Mibu is excellent in kendo, but in terms of swordfighting Erika belongs to the top group. Besides, you miss the issue: The difference between kendo and kenjutsu. Erika did not best Mibu using swordfighting alone. She utilised magic. To make it clear, Erika was using kenjutsu, whereas Mibu was utilising kendo. Kirihara was defeated by Mibu (who didn't look like she went all out) when they were fighting using pure skill, but when he activated his magic Mibu had a tough time getting away. It shows that in the world of Mahouka magic trumps physical skill.

You forgot Erika owned her in kendo(a destroy weapon means defeat also); then Mibu ask her to go all out; which she got owned again in an instance much like how Tatsuya beat Hattori's ass.

kagato3

2014-05-14, 04:52

And you're ignoring the fact that it was never my problem. I do think the teacher man-hours they have are under-utilized by focusing solely on Course 1 at the complete exclusion of Course 2, but that's far from my biggest beef with the system.

You're denying the school is discriminatory against Course 2, when the discrimination is plain to see. Even Miyuki was pissed at it, though of course she was pissed it happened to Tatsuya rather than it happening at all.

You're hiding behind the fact that almost all the unpleasantness comes from students. But the school has a duty to fight that sort of thing, not subtly encourage it.

.

How is the school discriminating against the course 2 students? The weed/bloom terminology was stated to be explicitly against school rules and it is shown that those in charge barring the SC VC, who comes off as a jerk, do enforce these rules. The only difference between course 1 and course 2 from the school's point of veiw is course 1 has personal instruction, and that is due to a lack of qualified teachers implying the existing teachers are being utilized close to the max, class sizes are very large for something that requires a lot of one on one with students. No course 2 students on the SC, this is the only legit discrimination in the school rules and realistically it really doesn't effect many people as less then 1% of the students would ever be on the SC. The uniforms aren't discrimination while it does make identifying a course 2 student easier they would be no different then school uniforms that are made to identify which school year someone is in, do you feel those cause discrimination?

Miyuki was pissed that everyone else wasn't worshiping her brother like she believes they should be, not that he was being discriminated against. to her eyes he can do no wrong nor has any flaws, her views do not reflect reality, although Tatsuya is not as unskilled as the tests would leave one to believe but he sucks in the 3 areas of magic that are tested and therefor taught in the school.

Again The weed/bloom terminology was stated to be explicitly against school rules and it is shown that those in charge barring the SC VC, who comes off as a jerk, do enforce these rules.

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 04:53

You forgot Erika owned her in kendo(a destroy weapon means defeat also); then Mibu ask her to go all out; which she got owned again in an instance much like how Tatsuya beat Hattori's ass.
She did use her speed magic before Mibu activated the ring. And though a destroyed weapon may mean a technical defeat it is more a material problem, than a problem of skill.

pampz21

2014-05-14, 05:50

She did use her speed magic before Mibu activated the ring. And though a destroyed weapon may mean a technical defeat it is more a material problem, than a problem of skill.

Erika ask for a real duel; then Mibu knew she cant defeat her ,so Mibu activate thr ring. A destroy weapon can be thougth as either luck or skill. If you attack the core of the weapon real hard you can destroy your opponents weapon; from the looks of it; Erika meant to destroy her opponents baton, but was still destroy in the process. A swordsman can only go out with with a sword. I can say Erika is still holding back.

cleo

2014-05-14, 06:14

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 06:22

Erika ask for a real duel; then Mibu knew she cant defeat her ,so Mibu activate thr ring. A destroy weapon can be thougth as either luck or skill. If you attack the core of the weapon real hard you can destroy your opponents weapon; from the looks of it; Erika meant to destroy her opponents baton, but was still destroy in the process. A swordsman can only go out with with a sword. I can say Erika is still holding back.
Why are we even discussing this? I never made the point of comparing Erika with Mibu. :heh:

I merely rejected the notion that Mibu being described as an excellent kendoist was supposed to be ridiculous because she was defeated rather handily by Erika. Mibu is strong, she was able to defend herself against magically powered attacks by Erika and was also able to defeat Kirihara when it came down to pure skill. Kirihara was a kenjutsu champion at middle school level himself, so he isn't a slouch either.

itisjustme

2014-05-14, 07:14

Actually, no, it doesn't. I have been a teacher, a self-learner and am also doing a research degree. And I can see how an interactive media curriculum can be set up to be more effective than the teachers I worked with in Japan (and presumably, teachers in other countries too), depending also on what the students are like. Of course, it has to be developed to be effective, which I assume is difficult. But they have had another 80 years on us.

Tbh it's kinda interesting to me that someone with actual teaching exp thinks that teachers are just glorified interactive textbooks. To me your argument is kinda akin to saying, "I managed my headache with home remedies I found on the internet and it worked better than the ibuprofen my doc prescribed me so we don't need doctors anymore." (Yeah I'm exaggerating the trait to make the point across). But well, each their own. :P

Critical thinking. Thinking outside of the institutions and frameworks in which we have been raised and schooled, to consider how else things might be.

That's OT and I'm no expert I don't think any cognitive process happens in a void really, everything is tainted through your own prism, even the so called critical thinking. I read a couple psychology articles about that actually.

Anyway end of OT here. :P

Triple_R

2014-05-14, 07:15

The difference is the system in Psycho Pass makes sense within the premise of their world.

I disagree. The school system in this show makes some sense within the premise of its world.

We're talking about a world coming out of a major worldwide conflict and an energy crisis. Isn't it just to be expected that systems are going to be considerably flawed, and resource scarcity (of all sorts) are going to be issues?

Having teachers is definitely a big advantage for learning. But no, it is not absolutely needed for all learners. The key is that Course 2 students need to be extremely self-disciplined/self-motivated, and consistently apply themselves to their learning modules and other educational materials provided to them. Yes, it's going to be difficult for them, no doubt about it, but it's not downright impossible to learn this way.

karice67

2014-05-14, 07:16

For me, the problem is this:
On the one hand, we have a country where mages are very rare and highly needed.
On the other hand we have a schoolsystem that, due to the lack of teachers, produces 900 high tier mages and 300 with potential.
They have everything to gain in trying to raise those 300 to their highest possible level. Miyuki states in that chibi ep that a teacher is essential for practicing magic, so yes, teachers do make a difference. The lack of teachers should be a problem for the higher-ups. Yet the show gives the strong impression that they're fine with the way the system works, and we should just deal with it.
...maybe it's just me, but I wasn't aware that the show had actually presented any of the views of 'the higher-ups', so how can it actually give an impression that they are fine with the way the system works? :eyebrow:

Tbh it's kinda interesting to me that someone with actual teaching exp thinks that teachers are just glorified interactive textbooks. To me your argument is kinda akin to saying, "I managed my headache with home remedies I found on the internet and it worked better than the ibuprofen my doc prescribed me so we don't need doctors anymore." (Yeah I'm exaggerating the trait to make the point across). But well, each their own. :PIn my experience, teachers are most effective when they provide guidance about learning and inspire/motivate students to take charge of their own learning. The students of magic that we see in this society are self-motivated, so if the guidance can be somewhat reliably provided by some other means, then I'm quite willing to believe that teacher-less instruction can be achieved. There are also counsellers for each class: my assumption is that they might provide some of that guidance. I do not expect it to be as effective / beneficial without the instructor, but if the alternative is for the students not to be schooled in the curriculum, then I don't see why they wouldn't take the second best option.

I make no claims whatsoever about the 'non-elite students' attending other non-magical schools. I'd be interested to see how they are educated and how effective that education is, but the show has not provided any info about them. But we are only talking about a specific group of elite students here, and I can assert that many elite students in Japan today (which is the society that provides the best point of comparison for Mahouka) are self-motivated and probably would prefer self-learning provided they have the right materials to do it.

I was also not making any claims as to the merits or demerits of the system, just to how it might have come into being given what it would have started from (Japan today). Based on that, I find it believable that they have come to this point. But I accept that YMMv, so yes, to each their own.

That's OT and I'm no expert I don't think any cognitive process happens in a void really, everything is tainted through your own prism, even the so called critical thinking. I read a couple psychology articles about that actually.

Anyway end of OT here. :PThinking too much and far too distracted. I meant "Critical Theory." The point isn't to consider things in a void. Rather, it's about recognising what shapes the way you think, the values you hold, the evidence you believe etc etc, and being willing to try thinking outside of that.

kagato3

2014-05-14, 08:04

itisjustme

2014-05-14, 09:08

In my experience, teachers are most effective when they provide guidance about learning and inspire/motivate students to take charge of their own learning. The students of magic that we see in this society are self-motivated, so if the guidance can be somewhat reliably provided by some other means, then I'm quite willing to believe that teacher-less instruction can be achieved.

A uni lecturer of mine used to say: "You don't need me to learn what's in the textbooks. What I teach you is that you don't know as much as you think, and where and how to find what you don't know." The most important trait of a teacher (IMO) is to teach you how to think and how to work, to understand the psychology of his students (motivation included ofc), and to be knowledgeable in his/her field enough to dissect where underlying assumptions and logic of the student are wrong and how to do it right. (Obvs not every teacher puts that in practice that but that's another matter.) If machines can do that in Mahouka then we're approaching AI levels, and I don't think we've been shown AI level techs.

Also WRT to motivation, I dunno, people in Mahouka might be a bit more determined due to their world situation but eh when I was 16 I was just a stupid kid who thought he knew everything just because I was smart and got good grades without trying. All me and my friends wanted to do was to play video games instead of homework, listen to music and try to be cool, smoke pots, hit girls, that kinda things. :P

I disagree. The school system in this show makes some sense within the premise of its world.

We're talking about a world coming out of a major worldwide conflict and an energy crisis. Isn't it just to be expected that systems are going to be considerably flawed, and resource scarcity (of all sorts) are going to be issues.

Japan would have what 20k-30k? magicians? it seems a stretch to think they suddenly can't afford 10-15 more teachers to allow them to produce 300 more skilled magicians _a year_. You can learn to be a teacher and it's not like you need to be a genius in your field. See what I wrote about about 16yrs old kids. It's like you're setting them to fail, except the oddball.

I wrote this in another post but I'll try to sum it up. You're right that it makes _some_ sense, if you're willing to twist your mind around it. You can put a positive and semi reasonable spin on almost everything as demonstrated by modern politics.

I'm not asking "how can I make sense of it" but "why is it like this" :If you have a world with pseudo-scientific magic and magic school to teach it, and magicians are rare and precious, it doesn't follow intuitively or reasonably to me that you'd set a fourth of your potential asset to rot without trying your best to nurture it. (And we're already shown a lot of class 2 students who are talented, don't tell me they have no potential and they can't contribute to your country.)

I can only deduce that the writer set it up purposefully that way. Why? It doesn't seem it's to explore the social and cultural issues of such a segregation, given how the opposition is treated. The one thing that's obvious and immediate so far is that it allows the "Tatsuya is Class 2 but he's actually a lot stronger/smarter than Class 1 wow!" factor. This is combined with other things, for example the entrance exam: the show itself says it doesn't test your real abilities! And of course instead it would target exactly the one thing Tatsuya is weak in, conveniently making him Class 2.

TL;DR Can you make some sense of it if you're set on it? Yes (well, maybe :P). Is it contrived and artificial for purely plot purpose? I say yes.

Ultragunner

2014-05-14, 09:59

Japan would have what 20k-30k? magicians? it seems a stretch to think they suddenly can't afford 10-15 more teachers to allow them to produce 300 more skilled magicians _a year_. You can learn to be a teacher and it's not like you need to be a genius in your field. See what I wrote about about 16yrs old kids. It's like you're setting them to fail, except the oddball.
First, it has never been stated in the anime that becoming a magic teacher was easy. Well, that's not the point I'm trying to make here :heh:

Like I said in my previous post. Perhaps there was a time that the government wanted to increase the cohort size of the magic highschool, they did planned to get more staffs and everything was already in place. But then some issues came up and the staffing could not be completed. Then they were left with 2 choices:

1. The admission of the additional 100 freshmen were to get revoked.
2. Go ahead and admit them, gave them the same curriculum, online instructions but with no real instructors

Some would choose option 1 but then you'd end up admitting your incompetence and inability in problem solving. On the other hand, some of us could be really stubborn so option 2 was chosen. This was a decision with HUGE RISK, but like they say "High Risk, High Return". Luckily, the first cohort graduate and those from Course 2 still possessed sufficient and desirable skills (let's not go into HOW they did it without personal instruction). From the perceptive of the higher-ups, you'd be like: "OHH!! Great job!! We got more magician without sacrificing staffs from other principles! Keep up the good work!!". After that, the same system was kept until now. In this case, you, as an educator and coordinator of the curriculum would propose again to get more teachers (for the sake of the students), but some of the higher-ups would be like: "Why bother? Those without teachers were able to manage themselves well enough, right? We would prefer our precious magicians to do other service for the countries rather than teaching some kids how to cast a spell!!"

The above scenario may at first sound ridiculous, but not far-fetched from our current reality, isn't it? At least from my experience.

"Tatsuya is Class 2 but he's actually a lot stronger/smarter than Class 1 wow!" factor. This is combined with other things, for example the entrance exam: the show itself says it doesn't test your real abilities! And of course instead it would target exactly the one thing Tatsuya is weak in, conveniently making him Class 2.

TL;DR Can you make some sense of it if you're set on it? Yes (well, maybe :P). Is it contrived and artificial for purely plot purpose? I say yes.

Well, except we ain't supposed to go "wow!! Tatsuya is stronger than those in Course 1!!! The system sucks!!:, but rather like "so Tatsuya can kickass, but what's he gonna do?" :heh:

Triple_R

2014-05-14, 10:00

I'm not asking "how can I make sense of it" but "why is it like this"

Based strictly on what the anime has shown thus far, there's a lot left to speculation.

With this in mind, I can imagine scenarios that would fit with what has been shown so far, and those scenarios would make this school setup at least somewhat reasonable (in the sense that I could imagine a somewhat callous national government being satisfied with it).

Given that the anime has shown good writing in some respects, I'm inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt here, and think that the writer hasn't completely broken his own fictional world, and is running with one of the scenarios I'm thinking of. If that later is proven to not be the case, then I'll join with you and magewolf and some others in criticizing this school setup.

One specific scenario, put a bit simply/crudely, is that your typical Bloom gives you so much more than your typical Weed that Weeds almost become an afterthought to the Japanese government of this world. The Weeds have just enough value to be worth bringing them into the school, but not enough to give them the sort of support that Blooms enjoy.

Given we're basically dealing with superpowers here, I can imagine that. With almost anything else, I couldn't imagine it. But with superpowers, ability/power level differences can be exponentially huge, which I can see encouraging very elitist thinking on the part of governments who employ those superheroes.

In a military combat scenario, 1 Nanoha Takamachi brings more to the table than 10 grunt-mages working under Chrono. Or, for those unfamiliar with Nanoha, 1 Superman brings more to the table than 100 Daredevils. Still, grunt-mages and Daredevils have some value, so even in a world with Nanohas and/or Supermen, you might want to give them some thought at least. But they're going to be way down the list of priorities. Keeping your Nanoha Takamachis and Clark Kents happy is going to be far and away your top priority.

Now, at a thematic level, this is what I think the author is aiming for...

Real life educational systems are flawed. Standardized testing isn't perfect. People that are very talented in specific areas but weak in others often do slip through the cracks.

Tatsuya is just about perfectly designed to represent somebody like that - A character who gets screened into being a Weed even though his genius is such that he's able to just about completely compensate for his magic weaknesses. If anybody should be pissed about this, it's Tatsuya (especially since it causes problems for his sister and him since she's a bloom that other blooms don't want mixing much with her weed brother on school grounds).

But Tatsuya isn't pissed about this. Or if he is, he's channeled it in productive ways.

And that's the moral here - Life isn't always fair. The institutional systems used to guide people through life have their cracks and have their loopholes. This is arguably inevitable, because we humans are flawed ourselves. Now, you can learn to live with this, and try to make lemonade when life serves you lemons, or you can rage against the machine (like Mibu did). The author favors making lemonade out of lemons.

Now, it isn't a perfect moral. Sometimes people are warranted in raging against the machine. Some inequalities really are beyond the pale. But I do think the author has a point. If you (in a general sense, not you personally) focus too much on every inequality you run up against, or every bit of unfairness you run up against, it's likely to undermine you achieving success in your life.

I will say that if I was editing this, I'd encourage the writer to set it up this way - All Weeds are crammed into one huge class with one teacher, and the Blooms get much nicer class sizes. That, yes, would probably be a bit more realistic and still get the same basic point across.

But this really is a nitpick to me, not something worth tearing the narrative down about every other week.

kagato3

2014-05-14, 10:00

The fact that there are not enough qualified teachers is not up for debate ig is part of the setting. They have spared the maximum amount of highly trained mages for teachers from whatever other jobs that need them as they can or economicly they can afford. The reason why doesn't matter but as has been pointed out many times there are logical reasons.

no one is being set up to fail. All the lessons course 2 has are the same as course 1's they also use the same training equipment. Since as stated above there are no more teachers and the class sizes are as large as the teachers can handle with out dropping the quality of education. There are 3 basic choices. 1 have no course 2 and completely lose those 300 potential mages 2 do what they are doing now. 3 try to train both course 1 and 2 with the existing staff and give everyone subpar educations.

The exam does test major and important ablities as Tatsuya himself confirmed. It just doesn't cover everything, Tatsuya also uses other things to make up for his flaws like pure physical ablity (which no magic test would test for) and custom equipment.

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 10:14

This is combined with other things, for example the entrance exam: the show itself says it doesn't test your real abilities! And of course instead it would target exactly the one thing Tatsuya is weak in, conveniently making him Class 2.
First, as kagato said Tatsuya himself stated that the format chosen for the practical exam is valid. Second, it may be semantics but still, the practical exam isn't targeting the one thing Tatsuya is bad in. Tatsuya does bad in all aspects of the practical exam. Rather it's the other way round, he is good in the one area that isn't covered - execution.

maplehurry

2014-05-14, 10:22

karice67

2014-05-14, 10:52

A uni lecturer of mine used to say: "You don't need me to learn what's in the textbooks. What I teach you is that you don't know as much as you think, and where and how to find what you don't know." The most important trait of a teacher (IMO) is to teach you how to think and how to work, to understand the psychology of his students (motivation included ofc), and to be knowledgeable in his/her field enough to dissect where underlying assumptions and logic of the student are wrong and how to do it right. (Obvs not every teacher puts that in practice that but that's another matter.) If machines can do that in Mahouka then we're approaching AI levels, and I don't think we've been shown AI level techs.And if you can teach them how to do that before they hit HS? I don't think it's impossible to do that, given the range of students and teachers I've met over the years - I know several people who learned 'how to think and how to work' well before they got to uni. And as I noted before, we are talking about elites in this show.

Also WRT to motivation, I dunno, people in Mahouka might be a bit more determined due to their world situation but eh when I was 16 I was just a stupid kid who thought he knew everything just because I was smart and got good grades without trying. All me and my friends wanted to do was to play video games instead of homework, listen to music and try to be cool, smoke pots, hit girls, that kinda things. :PWell, well...now you are starting to think a little outside the framework of your own experience and beliefs.

If you'd rather assume that the children and society in Mahouka are exactly like the children and societies in the relatively cushy Western nations of today, that's fine with me. But I'd appreciate it if you stopped implying that others who don't share those assumptions are being idealistic, irrational or trying to 'twist their minds around it'.

Not to mention the fact that we don't actually know what the author is going to end up doing with regards to the system yet, and given the abnormality that is Tatsuya, I simply can't see them leaving it completely as it is. So if you want to keep complaining about the system at this point, I'll leave you to it.

Well, in order for online learning to be effective, someone needs to be there to answer the students' questions because it will definitely come up. In most online courses, there will be a forum with the Prof or TA answering students' questions.

However, since this is magic training, it's similar to learning basketball such that a forum like these would still be insufficient. It would be no different from doctor diagnosing patients online. It's somewhat helpful, but definitely insufficient. And given what has yet to be shown in anime, I am not even sure such forum with "TA" answering students' questions even exists or not.

You do have a point that something is better than nothing. Though I would expect course 2 students to pay a lower tuition fee. :p

They haven't actually shown us enough - yet - to conclude that there are no teachers or facilities for them to ask such questions or seek some guidance, even if they don't have personal instructors.

itisjustme

2014-05-14, 11:23

Like I said in my previous post.

Sorry do I keep missing your post :P That's reasonable but the how would bug me, it implies you don't teachers at all. :P (than again in Mahouka I'm kinda convinced you don't need teachers or the school at all)

Based strictly on what the anime has shown thus far, there's a lot left to speculation.

That's true but I can only judge with what I have atm. You're giving it more time and I'm being more quickly judgmental, intuitive people tend to do that probably. :P (Intuitive as in people who function more with intuition rather than reason, not saying I'm 1337)

I will say that if I was editing this, I'd encourage the writer to set it up this way - All Weeds are crammed into one huge class with one teacher, and the Blooms get much nicer class sizes. That, yes, would probably be a bit more realistic and still get the same basic point across.

But this really is a nitpick to me, not something worth tearing the narrative done about every other week.

I get what you're saying but here's the thing: they have 9 schools and 300 extra weeds. If instead of cramming the weeds in 3 schools you spread them over all 9 you'd only have 33 extra students per school, and then it's only a matter of making classes of 33 vs 25, or if they're dead set on keeping the elite say clip a couple teachers from class C and D and put them in a fifth class, and so forth. Doesn't seem insurmountable to me and it's the first and obvious thing that comes to my mind in this situation, they couldn't not have thought about it.

I'm bringing it up because the way the opposition's treated as villains and misguided and terrorists and brushed aside bugs me in this ep and the last, with the main cast acting like you're dumb, it's all in your mind, suck it up, etc, when they're bringing up an obvious issue. I don't know if people brought it up before but if they did obviously I'm not the only one it's bugging :P

Tatsuya does bad in all aspects of the practical exam. Rather it's the other way round, he is good in the one area that isn't covered - execution.

Wouldn't execution be important to test? :P And IIRC activation speed for spells with many sequences is the only weakness Tatsuya's got unless I'm forgetting something and mixing my sources.

Well, well...now you are starting to think a little outside the framework of your own experience and beliefs.

...Jeez thanks for the condescendence, now I know I'm starting to think right thanks to you.

I'm giving concrete examples because again the real world is the only reference we have.

All you do is to make assumptions that everything should be the way they must be to explain the setting. "I could understand..." "it's in the future and so we can't use RL examples..."" my assumption is..." Apparently that's critical thinking outside the box to you, so I'm gonna leave it here.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 11:53

Why are we even discussing this? I never made the point of comparing Erika with Mibu. :heh:

I merely rejected the notion that Mibu being described as an excellent kendoist was supposed to be ridiculous because she was defeated rather handily by Erika. Mibu is strong, she was able to defend herself against magically powered attacks by Erika and was also able to defeat Kirihara when it came down to pure skill. Kirihara was a kenjutsu champion at middle school level himself, so he isn't a slouch either.

Now i can undertstand better where Mibu's frustration and self-deprecation comes from. You've worked hard on honning and perfecting talent and skill in the practice of something present day society considers pretty much useless.

Triple_R

2014-05-14, 12:00

Now i can undertstand better where Mibu's frustration and self-deprecation comes from. You've worked hard on honning and perfecting talent and skill in the practice of something present day society considers pretty much useless.

Mibu's frustration makes good sense to me.

In a world without magic, she might be the best sword-fighter there is. At least in her age category.

But in a world with magic, her sword-fighting can be decisively trumped by another sword-fighter amplifying himself/herself with magic.

Mibu is like a military commander who is fantastic at leading cavalry charges, but then tanks started getting mass produced...

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 12:11

Wouldn't execution be important to test? :P And IIRC activation speed for spells with many sequences is the only weakness Tatsuya's got unless I'm forgetting something and mixing my sources.
It doesn't matter which sources, they are all more or less the same in this regard. The practical exam tests for the three biggest factors of magic, invocation speed, scale of the magic sequence and interference strength. The former two were both explicitely stated to be below average in Tatsuya's case as told by the anime. For the last one it isn't directly stated, but it is also heavily implied to be lacking in his case.

As for execution, in this case if I understood it correctly it means Tatsuya's ability to do multivariable calculation. This is actually pretty hard to emulate for anybody (as shown by the SC members being stunned when they realised this after the fight with Hattori), so it doesn't make much sense to test something that is hard to emulate for most magicians. Besides, and this was also told by the anime, magic battles are dependent mainly on speed or power. Either you are quicker than your opponent and manage to incapacitate him before he has activated his skill, or your power is just so grand, that you can deflect any attack with ease and then proceed to overpower your opponent. So there really isn't a need to universally test for multivariable casting.

kagato3

2014-05-14, 12:20

Sorry do I keep missing your post :P That's reasonable but the how would bug me, it implies you don't teachers at all. :P (than again in Mahouka I'm kinda convinced you don't need teachers or the school at all)

I get what you're saying but here's the thing: they have 9 schools and 300 extra weeds. If instead of cramming the weeds in 3 schools you spread them over all 9 you'd only have 33 extra students per school, and then it's only a matter of making classes of 33 vs 25, or if they're dead set on keeping the elite say clip a couple teachers from class C and D and put them in a fifth class, and so forth. Doesn't seem insurmountable to me and it's the first and obvious thing that comes to my mind in this situation, they couldn't not have thought about it.

I'm bringing it up because the way the opposition's treated as villains and misguided and terrorists and brushed aside bugs me in this ep and the last, with the main cast acting like you're dumb, it's all in your mind, suck it up, etc, when they're bringing up an obvious issue. I don't know if people brought it up before but if they did obviously I'm not the only one it's bugging :P

...Jeez thanks for the condescendence, now I know I'm starting to think right thanks to you.

I'm giving concrete examples because again the real world is the only reference we have.

All you do is to make assumptions that everything should be the way they must be to explain the setting. "I could understand..." "it's in the future and so we can't use RL examples..."" my assumption is..." Apparently that's critical thinking outside the box to you, so I'm gonna leave it here.

Really it is implied just from the way it is set up that haveing teachers is only one part of the education. The 2 courses use the exact same curriculum and nothing has shown that they expect the course 2 students from being unable to complete that without teachers. Yes it will be harder then for a course 1 student and maybe they won't reach their full potential but they would still be able to go on to the university which is most likely even better staffed.
the whole reason for the course 2 students is to be able to meet the school's bare minimum government mandated quota for students for the university in case not all course 1 students are able or willing to move on

The opposition is a bunch of terrorists that have misguided a bunch of teens by vastly inflating the discrimination going on.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-14, 13:36

Mibu's frustration makes good sense to me.

In a world without magic, she might be the best sword-fighter there is. At least in her age category.

But in a world with magic, her sword-fighting can be decisively trumped by another sword-fighter amplifying himself/herself with magic.

Mibu is like a military commander who is fantastic at leading cavalry charges, but then tanks started getting mass produced...
Except magic's the only thing that pulled sword fighting out of obsolescence in the first place. Kendo was never meant as a killing art in the first place. It's a sport. Some people do get paid a lot for playing sports, but it's a bit much to demand that it be respected as useful.

And amusingly, I've read (from a not-so credible source...) that skill with a sword was relatively shameful for samurai. It only became prized after peace was established. Back when they really fought for a living, they were supposed to use horse archery. The sword was a backup weapon. So if you were too good with it, it implied you sucked at your real job (of shooting people from horseback).

How is the school discriminating against the course 2 students?
There are three discriminations:
- the absence of teachers for Course 2.
- the bar from holding office in the Student Council.
- the different uniforms.

The first one has a rationale behind it. I may not entirely agree with it, but it's there, and I can see it.

The last two? They're gratuitous. You may consider them insignificant, but they they have a symbolic power (especially the uniforms, which they see every day) that tacitly authorizes and even encourage the Course 1 students' own pettiness.

The weed/bloom terminology was stated to be explicitly against school rules and it is shown that those in charge barring the SC VC, who comes off as a jerk, do enforce these rules.
Really? When? We've seen no trace that it's forbidden to a greater degree than, say, running in the corridors. You get a frown and a reminder of the rules, but we've seen no hint of anyone fearing punishment. Indeed, Hattori was quite brazen about it.

Based strictly on what the anime has shown thus far, there's a lot left to speculation.

With this in mind, I can imagine scenarios that would fit with what has been shown so far, and those scenarios would make this school setup at least somewhat reasonable (in the sense that I could imagine a somewhat callous national government being satisfied with it).

Given that the anime has shown good writing in some respects, I'm inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt here, and think that the writer hasn't completely broken his own fictional world, and is running with one of the scenarios I'm thinking of. If that later is proven to not be the case, then I'll join with you and magewolf and some others in criticizing this school setup.

One specific scenario, put a bit simply/crudely, is that your typical Bloom gives you so much more than your typical Weed that Weeds almost become an afterthought to the Japanese government of this world. The Weeds have just enough value to be worth bringing them into the school, but not enough to give them the sort of support that Blooms enjoy.

If the cut-off was based on the power of the students rather than mere numbers, that scenario would be a lot more attractive.

maplehurry

2014-05-14, 13:45

As for execution, in this case if I understood it correctly it means Tatsuya's ability to do multivariable calculation. This is actually pretty hard to emulate for anybody (as shown by the SC members being stunned when they realised this after the fight with Hattori), so it doesn't make much sense to test something that is hard to emulate for most magicians. Besides, and this was also told by the anime, magic battles are dependent mainly on speed or power. Either you are quicker than your opponent and manage to incapacitate him before he has activated his skill, or your power is just so grand, that you can deflect any attack with ease and then proceed to overpower your opponent. So there really isn't a need to universally test for multivariable casting.

Maybe not universally tested, but it would be typical for an ivy league college to take this into consideration in terms of admission.

Kakurin

2014-05-14, 13:47

Maybe not universally tested, but it would be typical for an ivy league college to take this into consideration in terms of admission.
I don't know about that. If even top students like Mari and Mayumi are stunned that what Tatsuya does is possible it may be too special.

IceHism

2014-05-14, 14:13

Maybe not universally tested, but it would be typical for an ivy league college to take this into consideration in terms of admission.

American colleges don't work like Asian high schools or colleges. Entrance exams are most important in Asia.

kagato3

2014-05-14, 14:55

There are three discriminations:
- the absence of teachers for Course 2.
- the bar from holding office in the Student Council.
- the different uniforms.

The first one has a rationale behind it. I may not entirely agree with it, but it's there, and I can see it.

The last two? They're gratuitous. You may consider them insignificant, but they they have a symbolic power (especially the uniforms, which they see every day) that tacitly authorizes and even encourage the Course 1 students' own pettiness.

Given the SC one needs a vote from the student body to change the school may have had nothing to do with it. The student protesters also never brought it up kinda points they either thought it was unimportant or didn't even know about it. What they had latched onto was a very flawed club funding argument that anyone who did any research into would have spotted the flaws.

As for the uniforms many schools have different uniforms for things like differt school years or groups. You can't say changing the uniform would make any difference as I don't think it would be difficult to find out what class someone is in nor would it magically remove the course 1 students sense of superiority.

Keep in mind we know there was someone working to exacerbate these feelings on the course 2 side for at least a year if not longer and he might not have been the only one nor would it only need to be on the course 2 side.

Really? When? We've seen no trace that it's forbidden to a greater degree than, say, running in the corridors. You get a frown and a reminder of the rules, but we've seen no hint of anyone fearing punishment. Indeed, Hattori was quite brazen about it.

We don't have information on what the punishment could be but do you expect him to be expelled or suspended on the spot? We really don't get to see the aftermath of that nor do we see the term used in that fashion near anyone else with the authority to enforce that rule.

If the cut-off was based on the power of the students rather than mere numbers, that scenario would be a lot more attractive.
Numbers are a much more logical cut off as class sizes would have been optimized for the the max number of students. With power level cut off you run into either not haveing enough or too many people for thd teachers to handle.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 15:05

rladls2121

2014-05-14, 15:32

Mibu is hurt by the people who looks down on her lack of magic skills.
I wonder if that's the enough reason to bother with these affairs.

The magic students, not magic teachers are going to fight head on with anti-magic terrorists is something to consider about.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-14, 15:33

Which brings the question. Why she and other people even bother with it?

Also i find difficult to see Mibu as "the best sword-fighter there is" even in her age group. She may be skilled but she's very emotional, naive and unfocused. Certainly not the traits usually found in a truly strong practicioner of any martial art. Seems skill and practice are the only things she really excelled at. It also makes Erika sound a bit hypocrite with her compliments.
She was fighting while emotionally distraught rather than in the familiar kendo halls with the familiar equipment. (And what's naivety got to do with proficiency at martial arts?)

Given the SC one needs a vote from the student body to change the school may have had nothing to do with it. The student protesters also never brought it up kinda points they either thought it was unimportant or didn't even know about it. What they had latched onto was a very flawed club funding argument that anyone who did any research into would have spotted the flaws.

Which, to me, is symptomatic of a weakness in the writing.

As for the uniforms... I've already explained, at length, why I think they'd make a difference. A huge one compared to how little effort it would take to just change them at the next occasion. I don't feel like doing it again.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 15:46

I wonder if that's the enough reason to bother with these affairs.

I'm refering to bother with the Kendo practice. Given that is now utterly obsolete.

She was fighting while emotionally distraught rather than in the familiar kendo halls with the familiar equipment.

Well we could argument on that as well if the curbstomp she suffered on front of Erika wasn't so clear.

(And what's naivety got to do with proficiency at martial arts?)

To believe yourself to be able to use your normal skills and trump against superhuman magic abilities without any sort of preparation is one. Professional martial artists are usually depicted as people who undertands the risks and the responsability of practicing said arts. They know they can deliver or receive grievous harm and rarely understimates an opponnent (specially opponents they recognize as legitimately dangerous). Mibu acted like a stubborn girl latching onto her wounded pride and was manipulated and defeated as a result. Her actions and desicions doesn't reflect what has been said of her by other characters.

rladls2121

2014-05-14, 16:06

Mibu was at least rather more focused on the sword before being used by Blanche than Kirihara who focuses more on magic than the sword.
But, ever since Mibu was used by Blache, she was rather focusing more on anti-magic, not the sword.
So it is the other way around.
Mibu is too focused more on anti-magic than the sword more than Kirihara focused on magic more than the sword.

That ring Mibu used, to abolish discrimination, and then what?
She might throw away her sword and be dependent on that "ring" the anti-magic weapon after abolishing discrimination "succeeded".
But in reality, Mibu succeeded being used by Blanche stealing school's data.
What a loss.

Of course Tatsuya would not let Blanche get away, or he and his friends might get underattacked again by the same enemies.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-14, 16:13

To believe yourself to be able to use your normal skills and trump against superhuman magic abilities without any sort of preparation is one. Professional martial artists are usually depicted as people who undertands the risks and the responsability of practicing said arts. They know they can deliver or receive grievous harm and rarely understimates an opponnent (specially opponents they recognize as legitimately dangerous). Mibu acted like a stubborn girl latching onto her wounded pride and was manipulated and defeated as a result. Her actions and desicions doesn't reflect what has been said of her by other characters.

All they said was that she was good at kendo. It's got nothing to do with her character. If you want to draw far fetched conclusions because of "usual depictions of martial artists", it's on you.

And if anything, she's been shown to be removed from actual violence. To her, kendo's a sport, not a killing technique. She was naive when she talked of "real swords" with Kirihara, just like Morisaki was naive when he talked of "next time" to Tatsuya.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 16:20

You brought the "fighting in an unfamiliar place intead of a kendo hall" first. And even if farfetched it still holds true for her stubbornish behavior. She faced an opponent with a significant advantage over her and decided to throw away her only chance at an even fight for no good reason other than "to prove she can do it" and failed hard at that.

I agree with her being removed from actual violence, though. She just doesn't belong there.

kukuru

2014-05-14, 16:23

Well, except we ain't supposed to go "wow!! Tatsuya is stronger than those in Course 1!!! The system sucks!!:, but rather like "so Tatsuya can kickass, but what's he gonna do?" :heh:

except tatsuya isn't better then a course1. He admits it many many times. In terms of "magic" he sucks on a general level.

Again Tatsuya sensei made this clear.

If this were a combat and you wanted to hurl someone you just need a simple movement type magic to accelerate them with no regards for anything else.

But that's not what being a magician is about. That's just basic magic tricks. If you were to move a tea cup from one table to another, it would be much more complicated, and tax him completely.

Tatusya is a soldier with magical skills (that have been shown). He is sub par as a pure magician.

episode made it clear how course1 students might fight and course2 students might fight.
Erika is using basically move type magics at expert level swordmanship. Leon is using basic fortification magic with martial arts, etc, etc,etc

This is oppose to completely neutralizing threats of the SC, Discipline, and Miyuki styles are truly magic based.

I think people are forgetting this is a magic highschool. to go in depth people will have to read and find out.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-14, 17:10

You brought the "fighting in an unfamiliar place intead of a kendo hall" first.
Hm, what? My point was that she wasn't fighting in the best conditions to use her kendo skills. That she could, in normal circumstances (like, you know, a kendo match), be an excellent kendoka and still lose badly against Erika. Both because circumstances are bad for her, and because magic is more advantageous to her opponent than to her.

And even if farfetched it still holds true for her stubbornish behavior.
What? You're the one who complained that what we saw in the fight, and her general characterisation, was inconsistent with her description as a good kendoka. My point is that you drew unwarranted conclusion from that last point. She may be good at kendo and still be naive, easily manipulated, and emotionally vulnerable. I see no contradiction there.

except tatsuya isn't better then a course1. He admits it many many times. In terms of "magic" he sucks on a general level.

Again Tatsuya sensei made this clear.

If this were a combat and you wanted to hurl someone you just need a simple movement type magic to accelerate them with no regards for anything else.

But that's not what being a magician is about. That's just basic magic tricks. If you were to move a tea cup from one table to another, it would be much more complicated, and tax him completely.

Tatusya is a soldier with magical skills (that have been shown). He is sub par as a pure magician.

episode made it clear how course1 students might fight and course2 students might fight.
Erika is using basically move type magics at expert level swordmanship. Leon is using basic fortification magic with martial arts, etc, etc,etc

This is oppose to completely neutralizing threats of the SC, Discipline, and Miyuki styles are truly magic based.

I think people are forgetting this is a magic highschool. to go in depth people will have to read and find out.
If I want to move a teacup, I pick it up in my hand and move it. They put the accent on practical skills because they want practical magicians to do practical things (like defeat enemy magicians).

maplehurry

2014-05-14, 17:11

I think people are forgetting this is a magic highschool. to go in depth people will have to read and find out.

You can thank the author for that. Just by looking at the OP, we can guess that Tatsuya will have another moment in the future to show off his skills with that Suzaku-lookalike.

Akiyoshi

2014-05-14, 17:36

Kendoka. My point is that you drew unwarranted conclusion from that last point. She may be good at kendo and still be naive, easily manipulated, and emotionally vulnerable. I see no contradiction there.

Yeah that's kinda what bugs me. But it's okay it's in the head of the writter i guess but isn't suppossed Kendo is about discipline, self-respect and such? (i mean, most martial arts follow principles like those) And usually the ones who are the best at it are also the most calm and cautious about it. Look at Tatsuya's instructor for example. He really gives the aura of a strong martial artist (difficult to pull off in a world almost entirely dominated by magic) and he gives said aura with his personality rather than his fighting skills (which are impressive but haven't had much chance to be onscreen). Mibu acts rather differently than how people described her, that was the only thing that made my scratch my head.

Anh_Minh

2014-05-14, 17:48

Yeah that's kinda what bugs me. But it's okay it's in the head of the writter i guess but isn't suppossed Kendo is about discipline, self-respect and such? (i mean, most martial arts follow principles like those) And usually the ones who are the best at it are also the most calm and cautious about it. Look at Tatsuya's instructor for example. He really gives the aura of a strong martial artist (difficult to pull off in a world almost entirely dominated by magic) and he gives said aura with his personality rather than his fighting skills (which are impressive but haven't had much chance to be onscreen). Mibu acts rather differently than how people described her, that was the only thing that made my scratch my head.

Kokonoe isn't an athlete - he's a ninja.

Sports may be supposed to teach you a bunch of values, but in practice, they often don't. And being good at competition is not a good indication of how well you've taken those values to heart.

So, yeah, it's possible and even probable Sayaka's good at keeping calm and shit under the normal pressures of kendo competition. But that wouldn't necessarily help her deal with her everyday problems at First High, or with her terrorism.

Chosen_Hero

2014-05-14, 18:05

LMAO.
Artificial limit? Made by whom? "The author"? Aren't all the works the same?
"The author" is the guy even "artificial" creates the world, "artificial" power-up the character to solve problems after they do something incredibly stupid (Highschoold DxD), "artificial" creates the plot.

Are you the guy that love the "power as the plot demands, generally after some "friendship is magic" speech and my MC must be weaker than everyone" shows?
I suggest you drop this.
I can recommend you something suits your taste: Sailor-moon, any mahou-shoujo works, Fate/StayNight, Toaru Majutsu no Index, Highschool DxD.
Those would be some great power-fantasy works for you.

You clearly don't follow this series (Index), Index =/= Power Fantasy, Mahouka = Power fantasy, well I'll let the people decide when the next few arcs are animated *cough*Yokohama arc*cough*

kukuru

2014-05-14, 18:33

If I want to move a teacup, I pick it up in my hand and move it. They put the accent on practical skills because they want practical magicians to do practical things (like defeat enemy magicians).

How do you know how magicians fight? There uses in society, and magicians in Mahouka.

All I can say is RAFO (read and find out)

kagato3

2014-05-14, 20:34

She was fighting while emotionally distraught rather than in the familiar kendo halls with the familiar equipment. (And what's naivety got to do with proficiency at martial arts?)

Which, to me, is symptomatic of a weakness in the writing.

As for the uniforms... I've already explained, at length, why I think they'd make a difference. A huge one compared to how little effort it would take to just change them at the next occasion. I don't feel like doing it again.

Something I think you over looked about the SC discrimination that is clearly stated during Miyumi's speech is that the president themselves is not required to be a course 1 student only the officers they nominate since the SC prez is the only office voted for by the student body and they have all the real power it really is a minor issue.

As for the bullying issue you have expressed about the uniforms there really hasn't been any indecation that it is that prevalent. The girls referring to him as a weed in the first ep would likely have made the a similar comment even if he was in course 1 as he was extremely early but those comments were not directed at Tatsuya or was he expected to hear them. the confrontation in the lunch room was mainly that a bunch of Miyuki's classmates were trying to get closer to her since she is the star of the grade. Hattori while being a jerk was not bullying Tatsuya and did have a valid point (and was more or less what Tatsuya had tried to use before to get out of the job) What happened to Erika during club week was again not bullying just overzealous recruiting. As for the kendo incident we now know that Mibu and Kirihara have a bit of a past and Kirihara claims to have been over come by anger and he does seem to be acting completely different now so I'm not sure it is really bullying there either.
So the one real attempted a bullying turns out to mainly being caused by Miyuki snubbing people.