View Full Version : How are fansubs created?
Hi, I'm back. Problem with the forum seems everything is ok now.
I don't know if this is where I should post my question.
I wanted to know how are fansubs done? I've always wanted to know how the process works.
I remember when there were no fansubs just straight "raw' flicks that you could either trade with a friend, buy a bootlegged copy from a under-the table dealer, or try to obtain copies from a rental shop.
Then slowly you started seeing fansubs. They weren't that great but it was all you could get. But again there was a process involved to do it. One that at that time was pretty "crude" but got the job done. People would either buy the material, the master tapes and run copies to fansub and then sell them. But now that technology has gotten better it seems that the process is being done at a more faster rate. Like when a new show comes on in Japan, torrents are prepared sometimes a week to 2 weeks after. That's pretty quick work to get a fansub done. With the exception of looking past OVAs, because those you usually have to purchase them.
So what goes one to create a fansub.
1) How do the fansub group get the materia (ie. a TV show that's airing on TV in Japan
2) How much of the language does the team understand in order to translate a TV show (ie, how much Japanese studied, how much of the localization does one understand, etc...?)
3) What type of equipment is used to put it all together?
4) How many people involved in the project, and what benefits do they get out of doing this? Why do it at all?
5) The final deal, creating the DIVX, XVID or torrent files to set up for downloading for fans.
It's a lot of work I can imagine. More so on the fansubbing part. And from many of the fansubs that I've watched many of them have been pretty sound. Some even more sound than some of the domestic subs. Especially when they put in *cultural reference notes.
Any information on or about how fansubs are done please send it my way.
Thanks for your time.
1) How do the fansub group get the materia (ie. a TV show that's airing on TV in Japan
2) How much of the language does the team understand in order to translate a TV show (ie, how much Japanese studied, how much of the localization does one understand, etc...?)
3) What type of equipment is used to put it all together?
4) How many people involved in the project, and what benefits do they get out of doing this? Why do it at all?
5) The final deal, creating the DIVX, XVID or torrent files to set up for downloading for fans.
1) By a sharing program (Winny), buying the Jap. DVD or having someone in or near Japan and record them for them.
2) Other members of the team don't always know that much or at all Jap., except for the Transltor who translates it.
3) Computer programs like: Notepad, SSA, VDub
4) Team assembles of: RAW Provider(s), Translator(s), Editor(s), Encoder(s), Typesetter(s), Timer(s) and Quality Checker(s). They gain nothing. They do it cause they want to.
5) DivX and XviD are codecs used by the Encoder to do the "Hard Sub". Torrents are made with Completedir or other similiar prog.
Fansub process is somewhat like this:
RAW -> Translator -> Editor* -> Timer -> Editor* -> Typesetter -> Encode -> QC -> Public
*Editing can be in either place or both.
Some groups have multi-talent teams on some projects, eg. raw provider/encoder/editor or timer/typesetter. So, the number of actual people on any given project can vary greatly.
lamer_de
2003-11-20, 13:00
Some guide by Infusion:
http://apr.vvv.tf/guide.html
This question has been asked a dozen times at least ^_^
CU,
lamer_de
Whoa, that is a lot of work to do. I guess I'd have to see the place up close and personal to see how it's done. Definitely requires a lot more computer savy than what I've got.
So it's definitely a group of folks doing this together. I'm actually surprised that someone would go out of their way to send 'RAW' materials over. Considering that some of the older shows.
I tell you one thing that's a pretty fast translator program. I wonder how acurate it is.
Thanks on that note.
If anyone has any guides to pass along with information on the software or anything to the process. Please pass it along. I managed to check out the URL listed but some of the links are dead. If you have an alternative...
Thanks again.
when an ep airs in japan, people over there capture it and distro it via p2p programs just like we do with movies over here. within a few hours after airing these digital 'raws' are available for anyone who knows where to find them.
translation and editing is pretty straight forward.
timing is usually done with substation alpha, an archaic program that allows time 'grabbing' from a wave file into a script. groups usually add slight delays at the end of each line to allow for easier reading.
typesetting and encoding require a good bit of learning how things work before achieving awesome effects and perfect encodes is possible.
typesetting is usually done by text file editing, and perhaps with a little help from substation alpha. (groups are known to use other graphical effects programs as well, to better match effects seen within the series they're working with.) basically the script is modified with complicated codes for text positioning, colors, alpha levels, font and size changes, angling, motion, you name it. the code format is defined by a plugin the encoder uses to render the subs into the video. the plugin is called textsub (replaced recently by vsfilter.dll), which is included with vobsub (and has a bit of documentation).
encoding can be done using a number of techniques, formats and programs. most of these are detailed at doom9.net and in the doom9 forums. this step can easily be the hardest as it requires a quick computer (encoding is time consuming), understanding of the options available and how to tweak to get the desired result and size.
all these processes can be done within 24 hours of the time the episode airs, if everyone is available when they are needed, and there aren't many mistakes, etc etc.
encoding, quality check, re-encoding, and distribution are usually the most time consuming.
it takes a lot of effort and teamwork for a fansub group to be successfull. with time the group learns new ways to tweak and streamline the process. it's a big hobby to have and takes a bit of dedication. I enjoy the work most of the time, and hope that - despite all the rude leechers out there - some people do read the credits and respect the effort that goes into fansubbing.
Phew, t hat's a lot to do. And it takes a lot of devotion.
Daeluin,
The 'vosub' program that's been mentioned. That's the translation program. When you have the right hook up from the VCR to the computer; how is the language transferred into the program? How is the information entered and how accurate is the translation that it provides?
Is sort of a generallized translation that usually ends up with a bit of tweaking to be done. Or is it that consistent that the translations can stand on their own. Is this where the script is developed?
hehe, I wouldn't take ashibaka-san's post so seriously if I were you ;)
vhs isn't used for fansubbing these days.
there are no translation programs, except for some web sites that aren't worth mentioning. use a real translator.
the vobsub program allows subtitle files to be viewed with a video file of the same name. it also provides the textsub plugin that allows the sub file to be encoded into the video, and supports advanced effects.
there really isn't much more to say. if you're interested in learning to fansub (which it seems like you are), learn as much as you can about a certain process and get good at it. then apply to an existing group you like. if you get in, they can teach you more about how things work.
it's not something you can learn overnight though, and don't expect a group to take you in if you don't know anything. as for making your own group, it can be done, if all of you are willing to take months to learn how things work.
another thing to note: there are so many groups right now, and too many of them are doing the same shows. there are hardly any shows that don't get subbed by at least one group. people don't have any respect for new groups that sub a show that another group has already been working on, just because they were slow, and especially if the new group doesn't start from the beginning.
I see. I guess I would have to see one in progress to how it's done. I can see it's a lot easier to be seen than talked about.
Don't know if it's something I'd be interested in doing on my own or with a group. But hey who knows. But I'm more willing to learn about it considering the amount of effort that is put into it. Things have come a long way.
Hmm, I wonder if the domestic fansubbers are using some of the same tricks? Considering the amount of time 'torrents' get done to the actually domestic released ones.
Thanks so much for the info. Daeluin.
I have ordered a VOBsub on ebay, anyone who wants it please PM me.
No one is going into detail on the ripping part. Do you use a capture card on the PC or a PVR?
CompShrink
2004-02-08, 05:12
Um, either method works, PVRs would most likely have the hieghest quality, but that's a more difficult thing to use, as you have to crack the box, usually by physical mods (aka modchips and the like) and then crack the data encoding. Video capture cards for PCs can vary alot in qaulity, but I would asume this is the most common method. Alot of groups get raws off P2Ps, especially Winny, so this is not a concern for them.
As an aside, if anyone DOES have a card, your resolution will improve MANY fold with dscaler.
scotty81
2004-02-09, 07:39
I had another question: how do fansub groups get on joint projects ( cooperation )?
I had another question: how do fansub groups get on joint projects ( cooperation )?
One group proposes a joint to another and if both groups are interested in the show, they'll split the jobs between them.
I had another question: how do fansub groups get on joint projects ( cooperation )?
Most fansubbers wind up talking to others in various channels, and thus get to know members of other groups on a comfortable level... Then, if they have a project they want to pick up but not enough staff to do it on their own, they go ask one of the groups they're on good terms with for a joint project. At least that's how it usually works... This also tends to lead to some groups doing a lot of joint projects together as the members grow more comfortable working with eachother, and sometimes even spawns a whole new group that's a "merger" of the original two or more (such as Triad).
after watching countless anime, this thought just came to me...
how do the fan sub group fan sub their anime, as in how they actually do it in basic steps and what program they use.
NoSanninWa
2004-05-10, 05:17
You are not the first person to wonder this. I would suggest that the next time you feel the desire to post a new thread, first you should use the search function. Maybe you should even consider posting your thread in the correct sub-forum. For an answer to this question try checking one of these theads:
ummm...Does anyone know what I can use to subtitle anime...
How are fansubs created?
ChibiDusk
2004-05-10, 12:40
1) How do the fansub group get the material (ie. a TV show that's airing on TV in Japan)
By P2P programs, newsgroups and BitTorrent sites that offer raws.
2) How much of the language does the team understand in order to translate a TV show (ie, how much Japanese studied, how much of the localization does one understand, etc...?)
Varies by group and translator, there is a wide variety - from horrid to amazing translations.
3) What type of equipment is used to put it all together?
I do it in a couple of steps - most groups probably do the same.
VirtualDub! Load the raw, apply subtitle filter, apply various video ehancment filters [for sharpening the image, removing grainyness, smoothing, etc], select compression [divx, xvid, 3ivx, etc] and then file->save
then you have a subtitled anime .avi
PathofNightshade
2004-05-17, 02:18
I dont know if this is already been posted but I did use the search button. Anyway, I was wondering, I'm thinking of getting into the fansubbing "business" and i'm wondering what software each of the various groups use? Also, is there an online tutorial about creating and distributing torrent files? Because I simply dont know where to start on that. So basically, I need info on subtitling software and whatnot, and info on torrent creation. Thanks a lot everybody, I hope to make the Naruto fansubbing world a little less demanding.
ichido reichan
2004-05-17, 02:59
I hope to make the Naruto fansubbing world a little less demanding.
let me guess...you want to sub naruto too?
let me help you, go outside, grab a stone and count how many naruto subbers are coming out.
Not to be discouraging but if you want to learn and start fansubbing with naruto, you better save your time, we are happy with the ones doing it right now, do something we havent seen it yet :)
PathofNightshade
2004-05-17, 03:24
let me guess...you want to sub naruto too?
let me help you, go outside, grab a stone and count how many naruto subbers are coming out.
Not to be discouraging but if you want to learn and start fansubbing with naruto, you better save your time, we are happy with the ones doing it right now, do something we havent seen it yet :)
I like how your "looking out for me," but if you havent noticed, Bakasan is dead. I plan to release on Wednesday nights, something that no other group does. Dont think I would get into this if im not offering something special, in my case spped. Plus, whose we? I've heard some people voice that they would like faster subbing of naruto.
Well, if you're determined to do speed-subbing, my recommendation is to get Subtitle Workshop (http://www.urusoft.net/download.php?lang=1&id=sw) from URUSoft. It's pretty easy to use, supports just about every subtitle format (although only at a basic level...it doesn't handle the more advanced features of some formats, such as multiple styles, karaoke, effects, etc), and lets you work directly with your target video file.
My method when working with a script is to open the movie and subtitle file with SW, and play the video at half-speed, setting the subtitle start and end-points with the little clicky buttons, and then tweaking them by a tenth of a second or so to get the timing exactly where I want it. Then, when the file is done and saved (in .ssa format), I go back with notepad to adjust the styles and stuff manually. I haven't done any karaoke, but if I did, I would use the somewhat longer method of extracting the audio track .wav with VDubMod, downsampling it to 8bit mono, and working directly in Substation Alpha for that part only.
You can save yourself a lot of reencoding time by just not doing that step, and mux your .ssa file with the video in a matroska container (.mkv). The matroska muxer is pretty easy to figure out. Download it from http://matroska.org/downloads/index.html or http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverkli
As far as creating torrents goes, you'll first need a tracker to upload to. There are a couple public ones available. I use http://4tracker.net a lot, others may have different recommendations. Once you have the announce url for your tracker, use either CompleteDir (http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/download.html) or Azureus (http://azureus.sourceforge.net/) (I prefer using Azureus, because it's easier to torrent a single file, and it's also by far, the best BitTorrent downloading/seeding client anyway) to build a .torrent out of your file, with that announce url embedded and upload the .torrent itself to the tracker. All that's left then is to open the .torrent to start seeding it, and start distributing it to other people.
Or just mux the ssa into the avi - less hassle.
5 clicks and 30 seconds is less hassle than re-encoding the video-stream?
Please explain.
killmoms
2004-05-17, 13:23
He said mux into the AVI, not hard-encode into. Do you read?
--Cless
boneyjellyfish
2004-05-17, 14:22
Here are the steps that I do:
1) Get a RAW file.
2) Watch episode.
3) Watch episode again.
4) Stop after each character says something and type what they say into a text program like EditPad.
5) Read over script and make changes as necessary.
6) Open up Substation Alpha and put in my text file.
7) Rip the audio out of the RAW video file.
8) Time the script, making changes depending on how a character says something.
9) Load up the RAW file in VirtualDub.
10) Video -> Filters -> Subtitler
11) Play the file using the second window-thingy in VirtualDub and see if everything matches what the characters say.
12) Edit script again.
13) If I make a change in SSA, go to Video->Filters->Delete, then reload subtitler.
14) Encode video file and play it in Windows Media Player.
15) Make final adjustments to script, then do a final encode.
16) Release episode.
SirCanealot
2004-05-17, 14:43
Or just mux the ssa into the avi - less hassle.
.avi sucks!!! :P
Actually, considering our encoder COULDN'T mux are last episode into an .mkv without problems - I had to do it...
Ahh, the joyes of computing -_-
And considering the state of most raws I've seen, I'd wouldn't recomend not re-encoding (all the good ones I've seen are 300+megs :P), but hey, your release, heh.
avi sucks, but the vast majority of leechers think mkv sucks. They will ignore your release unless you are the _only_ group doing that show.
Less hassle: no need to install mkv splitter - which is a major, major hassle for viewers.
complich8
2004-05-17, 22:56
avi sucks, but the vast majority of leechers think mkv sucks. They will ignore your release unless you are the _only_ group doing that show.
Less hassle: no need to install mkv splitter - which is a major, major hassle for viewers.
When this latest naruto op/ed came out, we (anbu-aone) were briefly considering doing naruto releases in mkv, because of the different broadcast framerates (the op/ed are broadcast at 30fps, the ep at 24. Simply changing framerates to 24fps leads to jerkiness or odd looking blended frames, and 30fps leads to jerkier in-episode pans and playback, and 120fps leaves about 1/3 of our crew too low in the cpu power heirarchy to watch it comfortably). mkv of course allows for multiple framerates in the same file and handles it fairly gracefully, unlike avi.
We decided it'd be too much of a pain in the ass to get everyone to figure out how to watch mkv's though. The last thing any of us want to do is play tech support for 50 or 60 thousand people who don't know how to google "mkv", read a topic, read newsposts, follow links, or pay attention.
Of course, then 82 ended up encoded differently than other eps, and we had to play tech support anyway. The headache from releasing with fourcc xvid, encoded xvid 1.0rc4 and with gmc on was enough to illustrate to us all exactly how much we really don't want to get stuck doing. Which is why we'll probably still be releasing .avi files in a year, and maybe still in 2 years, regardless of mkv's general superiority at almost everything.
SirCanealot
2004-05-18, 04:43
It's a hassel of two minutes. If people don't want to watch our version (which of course is TEH BETS) for the hassel of two minutes, then they are lazy and should die. In a way I could say you should just ignore them and them let wallow if they can't be bothered to read the topic, but I guess that is a bit sad. Life's a funny old thing ^_^
Another thing that troubles me is why everyone else has codec problems, and I never do. Guess I'm getting a bit off topic now, but the issue has me severely confused...
complich8: If you ever consider moving to .mkv again (it would be good, since one BIG group moving to it would be a lot of people eqiped for it), then perhaps you could install a script in your IRC room which would paste a link to the guide you'd put up on your website whenever it detects people asking for help. I know we had that in one of ours a while ago, and it worked fairly well (allthough it DID get pasted randomly every now and again...).
Which is why we'll probably still be releasing .avi files in a year, and maybe still in 2 years, regardless of mkv's general superiority at almost everything.
I'm wondering what 'bigger' groups such as yours think of MKV at this moment. If I read your post correctly the number of benefits for switching are already beginning to grow a lot. Switching isn't done out of fear for the people who don't want to find how to play it themselves.
It would be nice to have some sort of discussion about this topic between the (major) groups. What format would groups choose now when not taking into account the 'helpdesk factor'? If most groups see the benefits of (read: actually prefer) MKV, it would be nice if all switch at (about) the same time. That way the helpdesk period only needs to be done one time and the subbers get all the benefits they want. Gaining such a large usergroup Matroska then maybe could be more actively developed and even more useful features added. Because otherwise if this switch isn't made at some point, like you said, we'll be stuck with an older format for a long time to come when better options are readily available.
I understand that groups want to reach a big public, but when there isn't another good choice available (all are MKV anyway) people will need to figure it out one time and can continue to use it without problems. I doubt there will be many people going to leech a fansub of a less known group (and maybe of less quality) then a major one just because the format is AVI. (But then again I could be wrong about that...)
killmoms
2004-05-19, 10:45
I've not yet tried to play MKV files; not interested in any of the series that are being released this way. Is there a good "demo" type file, maybe 2 minutes long or something, that incorporates MKVs features and wouldn't be too large to download?
I ask because I know OGM is another new container format gaining some attention, and seems to be capable of the same things as MKV (multiple audio streams, subtitle tracks). And I know for a fact that OGM is playable in a media player like VLC without downloading anything else. Is this also true for MKV? Seems a lot of technical issues would be solved by "download a player that can play it without needing a mess of codecs, etc."
Basically, what advantages does MKV have over OGM (if any) and why not start using it anyway? If VLC plays both natively, why not just say "get that, play our releases?"
--Cless
SirCanealot
2004-05-19, 10:55
If you want a demo of .mkv here you go: http://matroska.free.fr/samples/mewmew/downloads/mewmew-vorbis-ssa.mkv
16 languages, plus softsubbed karaoke...
Mkv's advantages are in being able to muxh .ssa format subtitles (which most fansub groups work with) allowing easy softsubs with a full feature set - ulike .ogm, which only allows .srt subs, which SUCK. Only one sub at a time, no font/colour information....
MKV also allows for more types of video and audio than .OGM. Most of the details elude me right now though. There's also a lot of other minor advantages over .mkv, again, none of which I remember right now. Check out matriska.org for more information...
I've not yet tried to play MKV files; not interested in any of the series that are being released this way. Is there a good "demo" type file, maybe 2 minutes long or something, that incorporates MKVs features and wouldn't be too large to download?
I ask because I know OGM is another new container format gaining some attention, and seems to be capable of the same things as MKV (multiple audio streams, subtitle tracks). And I know for a fact that OGM is playable in a media player like VLC without downloading anything else. Is this also true for MKV? Seems a lot of technical issues would be solved by "download a player that can play it without needing a mess of codecs, etc."
Basically, what advantages does MKV have over OGM (if any) and why not start using it anyway? If VLC plays both natively, why not just say "get that, play our releases?"
--Cless
In addition to the advantages Matroska and OGM share over .avi (multiple audio streams, graceful muxing of soft-subtitles, chapter-indexing), Matroska has the following advantages over OGM:
1: Designed using EBML (extended binary markup language), which is a binary xml format, allowing it to be easily extensible, and therefore more fully future-proof.
2. Supports arbitrary number of audio/subtitle streams (you can have audio and subtitles in several languages each, easily switchable from the player)
3. Uses unicode for subtitles, so soft-subs work correctly, regardless of the region-settings of the player's computer
4. Supports arbitrary codecs, including ones that haven't been designed yet. Just specify what you want to use, and if the filter is there, it will play.
5. Less overhead for muxing. With the exact same video and audio streams, a Matroska file will be smaller than an OGM file.
As far as your question about native players, mplayer, Media Player Classic, and Core Media Player all support Matroska without any additional Filters.
Also, any DirectShow player (i.e. just about everything else in Windows) will support Matroska if the Matroska Splitter DirectShow filter is installed, and will support embedded soft-subs (or external softsubs) if the VSFilter or DirectVobSub are installed. These filters are fairly easy to set up on their own, and there are several filter install packages available that include them. If you are generally opposed to packages that install lots of codecs, LD-Anime has one that installs only Mkv-Splitter and VSFilter. If you are looking for a minamalist all-purpose filter package that includes only the codecs necessary to play just about any internet anime, without any superflous bloat, DefilerPak is a good pick.
Of course, then 82 ended up encoded differently than other eps, and we had to play tech support anyway. The headache from releasing with fourcc xvid, encoded xvid 1.0rc4 and with gmc on was enough to illustrate to us all exactly how much we really don't want to get stuck doing. Which is why we'll probably still be releasing .avi files in a year, and maybe still in 2 years, regardless of mkv's general superiority at almost everything.
Another good reason to not use the MKV format is because there is (still) not a dedicated divx/xvid player which can handle the MKV format on the market.
I watch all fansubs on my tv via a dedicated divx/xvid/dvd player (a Philips 737) which only can handle AVI container format.
To wait for one or two years is a good idea I think !.
SirCanealot
2004-05-19, 14:55
Being held back by Settop mpeg4 players isn't a good idea. Especially since I doubt settop mpeg4 players will EVER run .mkvs.
Heh, screw that player. Get an XBox (never thought I'd hear myself say that). Its media player plays just about everything under the sun, including .mkvs.
Enragin_Angel
2004-05-19, 16:18
avi sucks, but the vast majority of leechers think mkv sucks. They will ignore your release unless you are the _only_ group doing that show.
Less hassle: no need to install mkv splitter - which is a major, major hassle for viewers.
How true. TW released that crimson four leaf clover thingy in both mkv and avi and about 50,000 leechers got the avi version whereas only 3000 got the mkv version. The only difference between the two was that mkv required less cpu load and that you probably had to get some filters (which was available in another torrent TW set up). This just shows how unwilling the community is to change.
Well if some group were to "force" leechers to learn to use matroska, it be a step in the right direction for the fansubbing community. I've personally been a fan of matroska before they even released it to the public and would like to see it become mainstream and someday take over the position that avi now holds.
If you are generally opposed to packages that install lots of codecs, LD-Anime has one that installs only Mkv-Splitter and VSFilter. If you are looking for a minamalist all-purpose filter package that includes only the codecs necessary to play just about any internet anime, without any superflous bloat, DefilerPak is a good pick.
The Matroska team themselves created a "minimalist" package which is what TW was offering to the public, the bare minimum required to play the vid. All of their packages are available on their site. The fact of the matter is, is that leechers will find the latest divx and install that, but will be confused as hell if they need anything else like xvid or mkv
I watch all fansubs on my tv via a dedicated divx/xvid/dvd player (a Philips 737) which only can handle AVI container format.
Guess what, they're really not xvid compatible. The Xvid team themselves have said that those players that claim to be xvid compatible are lying out of their asses since Xvid is a developmental project. Things change rather drastically over versions. GMC and QPEL from a new version might be completely different than previous versions ( and there are other under-heavy-work features) So all you can really watch on that pos is divx compatible crap and divx is complete shit in comparison to xvid, it might have b-frames but the way it uses it and compresses its picture in comparison to xvid is shit.
One last thing about ssa/ass in general, if you were to mux it into a container like mkv(or avi), you'd have to assume that all of the fonts you are using is already on the viewers computer. And chances are special fonts that fansubbing groups use are not already on a viewers computer. It's still best to hardcode ssa's into containers, for fansubbers anyway
Just my two cents
complich8
2004-05-20, 04:34
Mkv's advantages are in being able to muxh .ssa format subtitles (which most fansub groups work with) allowing easy softsubs with a full feature set - ulike .ogm, which only allows .srt subs, which SUCK. Only one sub at a time, no font/colour information....
Entertainingly enough, that's not the part of it that we care about so much...
Our opening karaoke special effects on naruto latest opening are disgustingly heavy. You couldn't render it in real-time on any cpu currently in existence anyway. We'd at very least have to hard-sub the whole opening and ending, and probably do the whole episode. Soft subs are only of any real benefit if you've got multiple language tracks and multiple subtitle streams (or want to have none at all),
Another good reason to not use the MKV format is because there is (still) not a dedicated divx/xvid player which can handle the MKV format on the market.
yep, that's another (albeit smaller) reason we opted to skip out on that route, at least for now. Really, all the common containers out today have something wrong with them, whether it's just lack of widespread support, clunky unintuitive requirements to run, lack of versatility, lack of software compatibility (hello wmv and realmedia), whatever.
As has been pretty well said, just by virtue of the fact that xvid (and to a lesser extend divx) are both under development, the hardware that tries to support them is inherently immature. But people are still stuck with it. I know I personally at least feel sorry for them .... and of course they'll expect us to cater to them when the next generation of hardware players comes out and actually supports the full xvid featureset (or at least doesn't die a hideous death under the same).
Of course, as TV output from computers matures even more (it's already pretty good) I'd expect less people to complain about their bad spending decisions, and more to start happily outputting to their tv's directly instead of burning cd's and dvds.
Well if some group were to "force" leechers to learn to use matroska, it be a step in the right direction for the fansubbing community.
I disagree. I don't think it's the role of the fansubbing community to sell the technology to itself, as it is the role of the technology to sell itself to the fansub-watching community. I don't think it's a good thing to try to force arbitrary changes, especially when they require people to further complicate their lives, and even moreso when those people aren't getting any perceptible benefits from those changes. Especially when we consider that our role as fansubbers (as stated numerous places) is to promote the popularity of anime. By forcing users to change, or by forcing people to our new favorite technology du jour without at least being deliberate and thoughtful about it, we alienate the people we're supposed to be promoting to. Rather than watching anime and hopefully becoming good little consumers in the market, it may be pushing them further away from that point. Who can say what happens from there, but if we're the only group releasing a series and we start releasing in mkv, even if we are linking to and handing out the mkv minimal playback packs and making it a fully automated everything, if we lose people who were gaining interest in the series, we've failed just that much at our stated goal.
Things like the impromptu comparison Enragin_Angel pointed out show that the community isn't comfortable going to the world of mkv, regardless of its inherent superiority in almost every conceivable way.
SirCanealot
2004-05-20, 05:08
One last thing about ssa/ass in general, if you were to mux it into a container like mkv(or avi), you'd have to assume that all of the fonts you are using is already on the viewers computer....
Just my two cents
Nope. You can "Embed" fonts into an SSA. Which is what my group currently does. Haven't heard of any problems with this either.
Our opening karaoke special effects on naruto latest opening are disgustingly heavy. You couldn't render it in real-time on any cpu currently in existence anyway.
Yup. Hard subs the op/eds. S'What we do too. Even soft-subbing basic \K adds another 100-200mhz of requirements onto the users processor. Just hard sub the op/eds, and leave the episode itself, which won't have any complicated effects, softsubbed...
Because god forbid our l337 karaoke and SUPER AWESOME "LOOK AT ME I DID THIS" credits don't have people pay attention to them, right?
killmoms
2004-05-20, 12:56
Because god forbid our l337 karaoke and SUPER AWESOME "LOOK AT ME I DID THIS" credits don't have people pay attention to them, right?
That's another issue entirely, one which has its own thread around here someplace. I swear I just read another one of these recently.
--Cless
I disagree. I don't think it's the role of the fansubbing community to sell the technology to itself, as it is the role of the technology to sell itself to the fansub-watching community. I don't think it's a good thing to try to force arbitrary changes, especially when they require people to further complicate their lives, and even moreso when those people aren't getting any perceptible benefits from those changes.
You have to take leadership at some point. People are sheep and will resist moving to greener pastures unless a shepherd takes them there. It won't be the first time fansubbers have forced arbitrary changes on people, and it won't even be the worst. The fans are used to getting jerked around to a small extent. First, they had to learn irc and dcc to get shows (why can't you just host it on your web-page HURRRR). Then they had to figure out what the hell a .torrent file was and install BitTorrent. They've dealt with "OMG this video won't play what's wrong? I need a what? WTF is a codec?" more times than any of us would care to count. Why is the switch to .mkv so different from all these advances? It's not. Fans will hate it for about 30 minutes as they figure out what they need to install to make it run, and then they'll learn to love it for years to come.
By forcing users to change, or by forcing people to our new favorite technology du jour without at least being deliberate and thoughtful about it, we alienate the people we're supposed to be promoting to. Rather than watching anime and hopefully becoming good little consumers in the market, it may be pushing them further away from that point.
Please, the fans will adapt. They adapted to digisubs from VHS. They adapted to DivX, XviD, and every other busted codec that's ever been forced on them. They adapted to BitTorrent. They adapted to IRC. All of these are technologies that required people take a small amount of initial effort to learn about and set up, just once, so they could enjoy their precious free anime. If Joe Fandork needs to install Matroska filters to watch the next episode of Stand Alone Complex or Naruto or whatever, he'll do it, because he wants to watch his anime. All it takes is a small amount of guidance from some of the people releasing a couple popular super-shows, and a nice carrot in the form of their favorite show in .mkv format and they'll do it.
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
Nope. You can "Embed" fonts into an SSA. Which is what my group currently does. Haven't heard of any problems with this either.
Yeah, it's a great feature of ssa/ass but I don't know about its compatibility with matroska, which as you might have guess is my container of choice. Have you tried it out?
Originally Posted by complich8
I disagree. I don't think it's the role of the fansubbing community to sell the technology to itself, as it is the role of the technology to sell itself to the fansub-watching community.
But how long will we have to wait? Until micro$oft puts native support in their next o/s?The fact is leechers are very resistant to change no matter what the topic is. I don't know why we should accomodate their needs. I know alot of leechers irl, and at worst they'll ask how to do something with matroska or ogm and I'll point them to a page and say install that and everything is fine. I dunno I guess it's just a difference of opinions. Oh and I thank StormD for his opinions as I agree completely(as it saved me a page and a half of ranting)
SirCanealot
2004-05-20, 15:02
Yeah, it's a great feature of ssa/ass but I don't know about its compatibility with matroska, which as you might have guess is my container of choice. Have you tried it out?
We've released 11 episodes in .mkv format with fonts embedded into a .ssa script, and so far I haven't heard any reports of the fonts not showing up. They certainly for me, and everyone related to our group at any rate.
The only time I had a problem with it, is with Anime.Fin's Gunslinger Girl .mkv release - the fonts weren't showing up correctly in Zoom Player. However, an update quickly solved that...
We've released 11 episodes in .mkv format with fonts embedded into a .ssa script, and so far I haven't heard any reports of the fonts not showing up. They certainly for me, and everyone related to our group at any rate.
I tried enabling the embed fonts feature in SSA, and muxing the .ssa file with embedded fonts into an .mkv, and I was unable to get the fonts to render on a system that didn't have the fonts installed, using WMP9, Zoom Player, or Media Player Classic. How have you gotten this to work?
SirCanealot
2004-05-20, 17:35
Are you using Direct Vob Sub to play back the fonts? I'll get back to your PM and send you a script (I'll put it up on my webspace if that decides to work) which I KNOW works for me when I can be bothered, or a bit later :P
Are you using Direct Vob Sub to play back the fonts? I'll get back to your PM and send you a script (I'll put it up on my webspace if that decides to work) which I KNOW works for me when I can be bothered, or a bit later :P
Using the VSFilter from project gulliverkli
Enragin_Angel
2004-05-20, 18:17
You need to install Vobsub 2.23. VSFilter is just the textsub filter basically... Both can exist simultaneously with eachother if you're worried.
While I disagree with the assertion that VSFilter is "just the textsub filter", I have confirmed with someone else's file that embedded fonts do work on my computer, but I have a LOT of stuff installed that I think most people won't. On my testing machine, I only have the following components:
XviD 1.0-RC3-Koepi
ffdshow ver 5-23-2003
AC3Filter 0.70b
CoreAAC 1.0b9
CoreVorbis 1.0b6
Ogg Vorbis DirectShow Filters 0.9.9.5
DivX ;-) Audio Codec 4.2
VSFilter 2.23
Matroska Splitter 1.0.2.3
I installed the VobSub 2.23 from doom9.org and suddenly my playback filters don't work. Any DS player reports it can't find a filter to decode video. I uninstalled VobSub and playback worked again. I uninstalled my codecs, installed VobSub, then reinstalled my codecs, and playback worked, but the embedded fonts didn't render. I uninstalled VobSub and reinstalled it, and went back to the no playback filters problem.
So, how did YOU go about installing VobSub that allowed it to cooperate so nicely with your other stuff. On my main machine, I'm sure I picked it up when I installed Subtitle Workshop or SSA, but I think asking people to install these things is unnecessary and impractical. I'd like to be able to point folks at as easy a solution as possible.
SirCanealot
2004-05-21, 10:46
I've just installed the 1.02 .mkv playback pack, and installed whatever version of DirectVobSub we have on our downloads page (I have no idea if there's a newer version, there hasn't been for ages, but if you like try the version on animeblitz.org).
All my stuff works fine. The only times I've only had a problems is when the filter randomly stoped working, and I needed to reinstall.
StormD, you should try experimenting with an actual .mkv too. There's our Uninhabited Planet Survival, and Anime.Fin's Gunslinger Girl to name a couple that I know of...
I've just installed the 1.02 .mkv playback pack, and installed whatever version of DirectVobSub we have on our downloads page (I have no idea if there's a newer version, there hasn't been for ages, but if you like try the version on animeblitz.org).
All my stuff works fine. The only times I've only had a problems is when the filter randomly stoped working, and I needed to reinstall.
StormD, you should try experimenting with an actual .mkv too. There's our Uninhabited Planet Survival, and Anime.Fin's Gunslinger Girl to name a couple that I know of...
Oh, sorry, I should have mentioned I am experimenting with an actual .mkv - my sub of Panda-Z 06 (http://www.raspberryheaven.net/~adtrw/torrents/Panda-Z THE ROBONIMATION 06 - Public Telephone [ADTRW].mkv.torrent). I used the embedded fonts feature when creating the .ssa, but everyone I've asked who's downloaded it has said the fonts don't display. That's why I thought this whole thing didn't work.
Link to your download page please?
SirCanealot
2004-05-21, 20:13
It's on our site - www.animeblitz.org. Our main seed's off for the holidays though, so if there's any seeding problems, let me know ^_^
I'll grab your sub tomorow and let you know if the fonts show up. As I said, I don't have problems, and rarely get them, so if the fonts don't show up for me, we know something is wrong... err, can you post a screenie of the fonts that SHOULD show up, so I'm not half guessing if the right one're showing up? Thanks...
What .mkv muxer do you use? Maybe the problem's there...
How much work is there to sub a 25minute episode?
I'm not saying it's easy, I'm asking. So don't get me wrong.
You watch the ep. Someone translates it. Someone tries to get the timing right, and might have to shorten some sub. And choose font.
How much work is there?
I expect it's much more than that.
PiePants
2004-08-14, 10:45
I'll assume they are using leet raws or something instead of ripping a dvd stream:
- translation
- timing
- ssa file
- filters to make the raw more visually appealing
- encode raw with sub file
- quality check
If there's something missing I'm not aware of it. Whenever I do my own fansubs that's the process I go through ( though I just rip the dvd instead of getting raws )
In order to get Raws it requires a japanese friend or like with a DVD recorder, ne?! ;)
In answer to Kizo message number 55
Assuming you have programs to subtitle here's my take.
Translation time can take a while depending on your translators grasp of Japanese and or English. Plus typing in the script. Several hours at least here.
Formatting comes next. Editing maybe. An hour maybe for initial edits.
Now timing an ep takes 25-30 minutes depending on the program you use.
Then comes the timing edits depending on your program. I run a timing bar for mine so after I get the tape for the edits it takes about 2-3 hours of edits. This includes placement of sign text and such.
For me, after I get the scripts it takes 3 and half to 4 and half hours to prepare the show. (LOGH disclaimer on total time insert here)
Heibi
Central Anime
complich8
2004-08-14, 16:37
required times for digisub jobs vary pretty widely for a lot of stuff, depending on the skills and the level of effort that the people doing them bring to the table.
Typically, you can expect 1-4 hours for translation (depending on the fluency of the translator and the amount of effort he wants to put in).
Editing is typically 1-2 hours per pass, but depending on what the translator gave you it might approach 4-5 hours. Many groups use 2-3 passes of editing.
Including scene timing, timing can be 1-2 hours, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a bit more.
Typesetting can be 1-2 hours, sometimes a bit less. If the typesetter is doing complex signs or coming up with new styles or special effects, that can change a LOT.
Encoding depends on how fast the encoder's computer is, how much filtering they do, and on how heavy the effects of the typesetter are. Typical fansubbing, I'd expect about 2 hours per episode, but that can vary wildly. I can think of at least one 90 second clip that takes almost 3 hours to encode, just because it's got such heavy karaoke effects.
QC is often an iterative process, fix errors, reencode, fix errors, reencode ... (sometimes script qc is there to remove some of the reencode overhead). Typically qc is a time commitment of between 40 and 60 minutes per pass.
All in all, one fansubbed episode can have anywhere from 6 to 30 hours of work in it, depending on all those factors. If you omit stages, or halfass some of it, you can get less than that ... but your quality will almost definitely suffer as a result.
All in all, one fansubbed episode can have anywhere from 6 to 30 hours of work in it, depending on all those factors. If you omit stages, or halfass some of it, you can get less than that ... but your quality will almost definitely suffer as a result.
That's assuming that you have a different person for every position. I know, because I've done it, that speed will improve significantly if you have the same person doing scene time, typeset, and an edit all in the same pass.
SirCanealot
2004-08-15, 06:36
Now timing an ep takes 25-30 minutes depending on the program you use.
Or, 4 hours ^^;;
Or, 4 hours ^^;;
I do feel for you. To make you feel better, remember, I have another 2-4 hours after timing it of timing edits, depending on my timing.
SirCanealot
2004-08-15, 11:12
Heh, 4 hours (I might have it down to 4 hours these days).
Yes, admitidly I could probably rough time in 40-50 minutes if I was pumped full of drugs and IRC was shut down, hahah.
Heh, 4 hours (I might have it down to 4 hours these days).
Yes, admitidly I could probably rough time in 40-50 minutes if I was pumped full of drugs and IRC was shut down, hahah.
My timing actually improves after a couple glasses of wine. Almost as if I understood what was being said.
Heibi
Central Anime
rman0099
2004-08-22, 13:36
Please bare with this n00b type question. I have been watching fansubbed anime for a few years and only over the past year have been visiting the fansubber homepages (basically relying on kazaa early on). So its been only in this last time that I have come to understand a bit of the actual fansub process. So here is where my questions lie.
1.) What is an editor responsible for? Is it just script editing to make sure the translation flows or is it video editing? Is there a need to to japanese to be an editor?
2.) Is an encoder basically someone who takes the video you have and gives it the desired encoding (divx, xvid, etc)? I've done this before but I'm not sure if fansubbers have a little more to it.
I know these might be dumb questions but you have to sometimes ask dumb questions to learn.
Shenlong
2004-08-22, 13:49
This thread may be useful, use the search next time
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=1296&page=1
rman0099
2004-08-22, 14:06
Thanks for the reply. Infusions guide answered it perfectly. The reason I asked is that I have been wanting to help out a group for the longest time now and these were the 2 areas I felt I could do. Thank is if what I though they were was actually what they did. Thanks agian and I may look up some groups in need of an editor.
Thanks for the reply. Infusions guide answered it perfectly. The reason I asked is that I have been wanting to help out a group for the longest time now and these were the 2 areas I felt I could do. Thank is if what I though they were was actually what they did. Thanks agian and I may look up some groups in need of an editor.
Far, far too many people think they can edit when they actually can't. This is a major contributor to the number of crappy releases these days.
Far, far too many people think they can edit when they actually can't. This is a major contributor to the number of crappy releases these days.
Yeah, I think a good rule of thumb for editors is that you should also be a good writer, WELL versed in English, and a good proofreader (that is, typos and grammatical mistakes pop out at you instantly).
Furthermore, you should know how to reword things without drastically changing its meaning, and for times when you have to do drastic rewording, always consult the translator.
NoSanninWa
2004-08-23, 18:28
Yeah, I think a good rule of thumb for editors is that you should also be a good writer, WELL versed in English, and a good proofreader (that is, typos and grammatical mistakes pop out at you instantly).
Furthermore, you should know how to reword things without drastically changing its meaning, and for times when you have to do drastic rewording, always consult the translator.
Well said. I would add that if someone is wondering if they have what it takes to be an editor, there is an annoying symptom that good editors share. When you are watching anime do you often think "Darnit that was said entirely wrong!" and then start re-arranging the phrase in your head to make it better? If this distracts you while you are watching anime, then there is a good chance that you could do the job. If you hardly even notice typos, grammatical mistakes and just plain lousy phraseology jump out at your to ruin the experience of watching, then you probably shouldn't try it.
I'd like to mention as an aside that there is a difference between bad grammer that doesn't belong and bad grammer that does belong - because the person talking should speak like that. It is sometimes tough to edit the difference.
I'd like to mention as an aside that there is a difference between bad grammer that doesn't belong and bad grammer that does belong - because the person talking should speak like that. It is sometimes tough to edit the difference.
Also as an aside, it seems you shouldn't be editing anything either. (Not to say you _do_ edit anything.) :D
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-08-24, 16:48
This might have been posted 100 times already, but i cant seem to find the posts, so if someone could direct me to them, i would appreciate it.
I want to start fansubbing, cuz i have so much time on my hands with nothing to do. (yes i have no life):heh:
If someone could tell me a link to a QC or encoding guide, i'd appreciate it. thx! :)
:hmm:
im sorry for posting this, but i really wish to help and start fansubbing. please dont be angry with me..im a newbie to all this.
CompShrink
2004-08-24, 18:45
This might have been posted 100 times already, but i cant seem to find the posts, so if someone could direct me to them, i would appreciate it.
I want to start fansubbing, cuz i have so much time on my hands with nothing to do. (yes i have no life):heh:
If someone could tell me a link to a QC or encoding guide, i'd appreciate it. thx! :)
:hmm:
im sorry for posting this, but i really wish to help and start fansubbing. please dont be angry with me..im a newbie to all this.
One of the best ways to learn to encode is to go to avisynth.org and download that, fool around with it, virtualdub, and either Xvid or Divx. Get a LOT of filters, get some raws, not reencoding fansubs, but actual raws from places like leet-raws, winny (which is a japanese p2p), or searching on IRC. Raws have different encoding needs than the already filtered fansub encodes, usually.
And personally I think a good QCer should grow from someone who knows editing, encoding, typesetting, and at least a little Japanese. The Japanese is not absolutely necessary, but the rest is prettymuch a must to dot he job properly.
Don't just read about them either, try them, and show your work to others who are more experenced to have them comment on them, or if you can't find that, at leats someone who is picky about video quality and english and see what they say.
In other words, guides don't really teach well, expereince does. Create your own experience so you can learn from it. Unless you can magically find a mentor, a guide simply won't cut it. A mentor to guide your experimenting would be best, but it's unlikely.
rman0099
2004-08-25, 16:56
Well said. I would add that if someone is wondering if they have what it takes to be an editor, there is an annoying symptom that good editors share. When you are watching anime do you often think "Darnit that was said entirely wrong!" and then start re-arranging the phrase in your head to make it better? If this distracts you while you are watching anime, then there is a good chance that you could do the job. If you hardly even notice typos, grammatical mistakes and just plain lousy phraseology jump out at your to ruin the experience of watching, then you probably shouldn't try it.
Actually that happens to me all of the time and its one of the reasons why I would like to get into editing. Funny story...I actually bought a book a couple months ago and got so mad at the mistakes with grammar and sentence structure that I wrote the publisher a letter. I just can't take excessive errors :bash:
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