View Full Version : File size of episodes
I just wonder.....
Why not keep the size of the eps. in 175 MB?
In that way you will get 4 eps on a 700 MB CD-r and 26 eps on a DVD+-r.....
Just a thought....what do you fansubbers think?
/Lonefox
Couple of reasons ...
1. TV series run for 25 minutes, while OVA episodes usually run the full 30 and need additional space.
2. With a 2 3 episode OVA series, you might as well upsize to 233MB.
3. If every episode was 175MB, 26 epsiodes would not fit on a DVD. In fact, each episode would have to be 172.3MB.
4. Why burn a series anyway? Ah, that's right ... they make nice replacements for your R1s. ~_~
I have seen fansub series where the episodes are sized to exactly 100MB, 172MB, 175MB, and 233MB. But it varies.
GipFace, fansubs can't replace your R1s anyway because you can't watch DivX on your DVD player. If fansubs were for replacing DVDs, they would be released in SVCD format.
Ummm...
U cannot choose the size of the release...
The size depends on: the size of the RAW, number of filters used, the filters used, methods & codec used for encoding...
So as u see the encoder cannot make all ep or even one ep the size he/she wants to...
Ummm...
The size depends on: the size of the RAW, number of filters used, the filters used, methods & codec used for encoding...
You forgot one thing in your list. The bitrate. It is freely settable by the encoder, and, when 2-pass (and some maths) is used, you can get really close to a certain size in the final product. That's why some groups' encodes always are 175MiB.
You forgot one thing in your list. The bitrate.
The size depends on: the size of the RAW, number of filters used, the filters used, methods & codec used for encoding...
..........
Enragin_Angel
2003-11-21, 15:41
No, you can choose the size of an encode. It just depends on what quality you want it and how good you are at maintaining that quality.
Esperchld
2003-11-21, 15:42
actually tamz, the size of the raw doesn't matter a whole lot, if any. You just re-encode to whatever you want anyways.
Enragin_Angel
2003-11-21, 16:15
Yeah. For instance, all these new naruto fansubbers. I can make 80MB encodes look the same quality as theirs...I even gave directions on how to for one group. Except they still reject it and produce 175MB or 200MB encodes that are crappy in quality. Oh well...can't bitch about something I get for free, right?
GipFace, fansubs can't replace your R1s anyway because you can't watch DivX on your DVD player. If fansubs were for replacing DVDs, they would be released in SVCD format.
Actually, there are now DVD players that support DivX 4 and DivX 5 (and XviD if fourcc'ed to DivX5) playback. Since DivX 3 is a hack, it doesn't work.
But anyway, you missed the boat. Think carefully about what I'm referring to ...
dbzgundam
2003-12-02, 13:06
GipFace, fansubs can't replace your R1s anyway because you can't watch DivX on your DVD player. If fansubs were for replacing DVDs, they would be released in SVCD format.
This is why Anime-Blitz releases KVCD versions of their fansubs, these can be played on most DVD players that support the VCD standard. Also think about it, those encodes go to 156MB tops, you can fit more like five eps on a disc...
This is why Anime-Blitz releases KVCD versions of their fansubs, these can be played on most DVD players that support the VCD standard. Also think about it, those encodes go to 156MB tops, you can fit more like five eps on a disc...
No.... 140mb = 5 eps /disc. And the minimum size is completely up the the encoder. It depends what kind of quality the encoder wants. Almost all series can be put at ~170mb with good quality. The maximum size depends on the raw. There are some series which no matter what bitrate you feed them, the file size will not increase nor will the quality. All filters and different raws do is increase or decrease compressability. (How much quality loss there for the compression). Most good raws can be even further compressed with a normal filterless 1 pass encode. And there is really nothing that decides the file size beside what the encoder wants to do.
I encode to 180 megs. On purpose.
Fansubs should be watched and enjoyed once, then deleted. I do not make fansubs to replace DVDs. I do not make fansubs for you to store forever. Consider them as a replacement for watching it on TV. If you like it so much that you want to watch it again, buy the R2 DVD when its released like everyone else in Japan does.
PS: Don't bother flaming me, you're not going to change my mind.
SirCanealot
2003-12-03, 06:49
GipFace, fansubs can't replace your R1s anyway because you can't watch DivX on your DVD player. If fansubs were for replacing DVDs, they would be released in SVCD format.
Heh Mpeg4 playback IS comming to DVD Players now. There's a few that will do it now. I'm not sure if they'll cope with the high res, high bitrates of todays anime fansubs, I know they have some limitations.
The Ps2 and the X-Box also have a mpeg4 player. The X-Box will play more or less anything under the moon, while the Ps2 strugles and jerks on newer encodes unfortunately (only older stuff and stuff not in 640/480 works fine).
You can also always TV-Out your PC too :P
However no, 8 gigs of DVD owns 700megs of Mpeg4, especially when capped from Jap TV.
This is why Anime-Blitz releases KVCD versions of their fansubs
That's IF you have a DVD Player that will play the damn things. The last time I tried I was unlucky in nether of my DVD Players would play them right :(((
I have a new one now, so I need to try it sometime...
No.... 140mb = 5 eps /disc.
Remember VCDs = 800megs per disk, allthough 5 eps at 165megs would still be pushing it.
I encode to 180 megs. On purpose.
Then you are pwned by OverBurn! Try 186 like Kraze's Inuyasha heh.
I like to burn all my stuff purely for collection. VERY FEW things I will watch though again, mostly old stuff that isn't licenced anyway. It's cool having the few year old DigiSubs to shows that are licenced now and saying "damn, encoding sucked back then..."
DekaMaster
2003-12-03, 11:46
I encode to 180 megs. On purpose.
Fansubs should be watched and enjoyed once, then deleted. I do not make fansubs to replace DVDs. I do not make fansubs for you to store forever. Consider them as a replacement for watching it on TV. If you like it so much that you want to watch it again, buy the R2 DVD when its released like everyone else in Japan does.
PS: Don't bother flaming me, you're not going to change my mind.
Do you really think this stops people from burning things? People will burn what ever. And now with people using dvdrs to store anime what you are doing is pretty pointless. And if you really wanted people to buy the R2 or even the R1 dvds you would not be fansubbing in the first place.
outlaw55
2003-12-03, 23:01
Do you really think this stops people from burning things? People will burn what ever. And now with people using dvdrs to store anime what you are doing is pretty pointless. And if you really wanted people to buy the R2 or even the R1 dvds you would not be fansubbing in the first place.
On the contrary KingRanger, I personally like to see a show before I buy it shows I haven't seen at least one ep I don't buy. All of the show I purchased i had seen before i bought it (except for dirty pair flash, except I had seen dirty pair...so that kind of evens out), so for a lot of ppl fansubs help ENCOURAGE the purchase of DVDs. One reason I am in a fansub group is 1, to help out, but 2, to find new and interesting shows I could consider purchasing in the future :)
Do you really think this stops people from burning things? People will burn what ever. And now with people using dvdrs to store anime what you are doing is pretty pointless. And if you really wanted people to buy the R2 or even the R1 dvds you would not be fansubbing in the first place.
This is true, theres nothing I can do to stop hardcore leeches. :(
But please dont tell me what I want and don't want. You probably know nothing about my group and our philosophy, but we like to think we are helping the anime community unlike some other groups that sub everything that is 100% sure to be licensed anyway.
Then you are pwned by OverBurn! Try 186 like Kraze's Inuyasha heh.
Actually I encode from 180-195, so on average it wont be overburnable :D
who cares if stuff is burned o_O
DVD burners are far becomming cheap now, and affordable by most (89$?)
THus it's useless to waste time with wierd sized encodes o_O
People can also easily re-encode stuff, without much, if any, quality loss to a smaller size, or they could chop out the ending or something...
I say, just encode to a size that looks nice, and forget about burning o_O
SirCanealot
2003-12-04, 06:28
Also, all you'd be doing to someone like me, who burns everything for the purpose of collection, if costing me an extra 40p or so per series on the extra couple of CDs I burn...
So thanks...
I don't mind anyway. Extra quality heh.
i havent seen any dvd player that plays divx, but i have heard of them. anyways, i have a moded xbox with a media player installed in it, i stream all my anime to the xbox :) . As for encoding, technology keeps advancing and encoders will be able to encode with less bitrate. Animekraze is using xvid and their encode are awesome and they are small to average 145 mbs
Also, all you'd be doing to someone like me, who burns everything for the purpose of collection...
Why do people do this? :confused:
Why do people do this? :confused:
Do we really need to answer this? Oh hell, why not cause chaos in the world.
Heheh -> (Spoiler tags to keep those who dont want to know ignorant)
Cause people are leechers and like to have stuff even if they dont plan on buying the R1 just for the sake of having it. Even if it is the worst show ever, they will still keep it just because. (And yes, still not buy it, even though they insist on having a cd copy)
getfresh
2003-12-06, 10:21
Heh... You must not have seen many raws. It's all nice and well A-Kraze encodes the epis to the small size of 145MB it serves no purpose. At 145MB your still only fitting 4 per CDR, and their encode quality varies quite a bit. I've noticed quite a few epi's with gamma distortion, over blurring, color masking, overly or incorrectly decimated frames, as well as other small mistakes. I'm not gunna just point them out cause a lot of encodes have the same quality errors.
As someone who deals with raws more then I'd like to, I can say that the raws 90% of the time are way better looking then the fansub releases. Currently the normal size of a raw 23-25min episode is 220MB-270MB. I've even seen them get as big as 450MB, but that’s very rare.
Personally, I think it doesn't matter if the fansub version is 180MB-200MB if the quality is good. If it was that big and was a really poor encode I could see bringing attention to that. But that’s not the issue. Are you really that strapped for cash that a "FREE" fansub is so expensive that you need to be thrifty with $0.20 cds?
The best solution I can think of is if it’s that big of a deal, recompress the media further yourself. People are always saying that fansubbers treat leechers poorly, and I think we tend to get aggravated when you want us to spend even more of our time to make your life more convenient. I'm not saying that’s what’s going on but really this was something really picky or even spoiled to post about.
Maybe it would be better if it was still hard as hell to even find a fansub, or you still had to pay for the Blank tape cost and shipping just to watch a few not so high quality episodes that you had no complaints about as long as you could see an anime not available among the 17 videos they had for rent at blockbuster during the infancy of fansubbing.
I know that like 90% of those who read this won’t agree with me, and that’s fine. I also know that about 1/10 of the people here learned about anime before toonami, and 1/15 before Saturday anime that sci-fi use to have. I'm not saying that they are any less of fans, but I am saying that those 9/10 don't appreciate how nice it is that obtaining anime takes less effort then cooking instant ramen....
Oh and sorry to a-kraze staff for singling you all out and all. It's just that you were the most convenient, and I can't use encoders in my group because I got to work with this people... I'm not trying to have my TS's all of a sudden become all big, or really small, or a bunch other things that can be done to make my life harder -_-
Oh and if anything’s misspelled deal with it, I'm too tired to give a damn at the moment...
You have a point there. And even though I´m one of those shameless bastards who burn most of the stuff they download to CD-Rs and keep it forever, i´d be glad to "waste" some space for a better image/audio quality ;)
getfresh
2003-12-06, 13:42
O.O
My god... Someone actually agreed with me! You sir sould be an example to all those who whine about petty little things.
dbzgundam
2003-12-21, 16:39
I see far to much quality loss on 175MB encodes... It's not noticable to most, but it's there; and it's there on 200MB encodes too... Face it, people shouldn't start bitching about size when they continuously demand quality. Now I can understand getting 175MB with excellent quality, but the sources have to be superb for this. The other way is for the encoder to compensate the video for the codec and lower contrast, lower brightness etc etc. Also the encoder may not give a sh*t about cleaning it up (the raw) for the final representation. This DOES improve compressibility but when it comes down to it, I'd much rather have a larger filesize and better quality, then lower filesize and lower quality.
I refuse to believe that even the greatest encoder can get a 23min show at 640x480 looking better at 80MB than the same encode at 175MB too... that's less than HALF the size which is bullsh*t in terms of quality.
NeverRamza
2003-12-21, 22:48
I encode to 180 megs. On purpose.
Fansubs should be watched and enjoyed once, then deleted. I do not make fansubs to replace DVDs. I do not make fansubs for you to store forever. Consider them as a replacement for watching it on TV. If you like it so much that you want to watch it again, buy the R2 DVD when its released like everyone else in Japan does.
PS: Don't bother flaming me, you're not going to change my mind.
Oh, why thank you, miss. It's a good thing CD's are usually free after rebate then :)
I used to burn a large chunk of my anime for the purpose of sharing it with friends with worse connections than I had. After about three fourths of it got licensed and I wound up disposing of almost a hundred CDs, I decided this was a rather expensive habit to continue. However, I still believe in encoding episodes of a reasonable size for the purpose of burning to CD if people wish to do this. Maybe it's naivete (well, it almost certainly is), but I like to think people will do the right thing with the releases and dispose of the CDs upon licensing if they do not intend to buy the series. Until then, I think there are plenty of legitimate uses they could put their anime to, and there's no real reason to go out and TRY to hinder them.
EvoSpace
2003-12-22, 02:02
I always thought fansubs should be small in size so it can get distributed easier, make modem users happy, and yeah save some space. Even though it might lower the quality, that quality is for the people who paid for the DVDs. Btw, our encoder succeeded in making a 24 min show as low as 67mb, maintaining fairly high quality. ^_^
Hmm...where can I get those? I want to see the quality ;)
CompShrink
2003-12-22, 03:14
Evo: "fairly high quality" is still bad quality... but then again I make encodes of 23 min episodes to 55mb for 56k users. I use RM, which despite widespread hatred really is a good low bitrate codec. It sucks at high bitrate, but at low bitrate, better than divx. No matter what, 60mb encodes look bad compared to a 175+ mb encode....
I agree with you though evo: high quality is for people who buy dvds. And low filesize is good for distrobuting, and spyre, what ever size you make your fansubs, people who want to burn, will burn. I burn some, though not all, and mainly as a distro method for anime fans near me on 56k modems...
4. Why burn a series anyway? Ah, that's right ... they make nice replacements for your R1s. ~_~
Um, have you ever heard of backup copies? Just because you buy a DVD, it's not guaranteed to remain in a pristeen condition for the rest of eternity.
EvoSpace
2003-12-22, 05:43
Hmm...where can I get those? I want to see the quality ;)
Try our Shingetsutan Tsukihime ep3 for example, since it got some action near the end.
http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/239.html
Yeah, this show compresses well and it's definately lower quality than a 175mb file, but if you can get this much quality out of such a small file size, I think you can say it's efficient.
I'd rather have 2-3 HQ encodes on 1 CD then 4 LQ/MQ encodes on 1 CD
Briareos
2003-12-22, 09:54
I encode to 180 megs. On purpose.
Fansubs should be watched and enjoyed once, then deleted. I do not make fansubs to replace DVDs. I do not make fansubs for you to store forever. Consider them as a replacement for watching it on TV. If you like it so much that you want to watch it again, buy the R2 DVD when its released like everyone else in Japan does.
PS: Don't bother flaming me, you're not going to change my mind.I have no interest in flaming (what good would that do anyhow?), but consider this:
You as a fansubber have made an anime available to me as an English speaking person (thank you). Not all anime will be R1 licensed (-- a lot will, but there will always be good shows slipping through the cracks). R2 DVDs are useless to me since I won't be able to understand more than a few words and phrases (and I won't be able to show it to anyone else because they won't have a modded DVD player). Thus, if I like a show that is not R1 licensed (Future Boy Conan, Princess Tutu, countless others...) I sure as hell am going to burn the eps so that I can watch it again and show it to friends who would NEVER be able to see it otherwise (besides supporting the pirate industry -- no thanks). Besides, I tape things I watch on TV so that I can watch them again -- until I can buy the DVD (and I do).
I know that there are people out there who are doing what you're objecting to, but it sounds like you're just berating people based on assumptions and your own set of values. Your approach is extremely legalistic and unrealistic, and the truth is that you can't dictate how these files are used once you release them -- and if you care so much, maybe you shouldn't.
Did the old-school fanbase delete their fansubs on VHS after a single viewing? No. Nothing is different except the creation/distribution speed and visual quality of fansubs.
Um, have you ever heard of backup copies? Just because you buy a DVD, it's not guaranteed to remain in a pristeen condition for the rest of eternity.
I guarantee you that a physically pressed DVD-ROM will last longer and withstand more abuse than any burned CD-R on the market, even those Kodak Gold ones which supposedly last 100 years. Why? Because the pits were imprinted onto the DVD-ROM using a specially-made machine instead of the dye being warped by a laser.
Briareos
2003-12-22, 12:02
Um, have you ever heard of backup copies? Just because you buy a DVD, it's not guaranteed to remain in a pristeen condition for the rest of eternity.And besides, if a show is available on R1 DVD, would you ever want to go back to a fansub (aside from the fansub being better translated)? There is NO comparison between the quality of most fansubs and most DVDs. DVDs almost always win out, unless the source material stinks (i.e. Macross Plus Movie from Manga).
Unless you lose the DVD, if it is damaged you should be able to get a replacement from the manufacturer for around $5 (-- sending in the damaged disc is part of the exchange).
JediNight
2003-12-24, 03:15
I disagree with most large encodes for two reasons. For one, it rarely improves the quality to encode higher than 175mb except for rare cases like Gundam Seed. They are just being lazy or want people to think its higher quality than it is by bloating to 230mb or whatever. For two, its a HUGE waste of bandwidth -- I posted in another thread how a 13ep series wastes like 3.5 terrabytes of bandwidth from the 55mb difference of 230-175mb. If you can't make drama series or most series look as good or better than the raw at 175mb, then the problem is with you.
Ketsu-Kun
2003-12-24, 08:57
I had a DVD Player that played DivX till it got stolen when I was burgled less then 2 weeks ago, I also burned alot of Anime to CD. However the instant the Anime got licensed I bought the actual DVD's, usually in boxset format if I could. I kept the CD's of the backups however incase I got burgled - I did got burgled and now I can watch the CD's until the insurance company replaces them or gives me the money to replace them.
Not all people who burn do it solely to avoid purchasing the DVD's. :P
I disagree with most large encodes for two reasons. For one, it rarely improves the quality to encode higher than 175mb except for rare cases like Gundam Seed. They are just being lazy or want people to think its higher quality than it is by bloating to 230mb or whatever. For two, its a HUGE waste of bandwidth -- I posted in another thread how a 13ep series wastes like 3.5 terrabytes of bandwidth from the 55mb difference of 230-175mb. If you can't make drama series or most series look as good or better than the raw at 175mb, then the problem is with you.
It also seems that the size of the average anime episode raw is also on the increase, so raws are hardly 175mb anymore. On average, the raws I get are around 200mb, and some of the ones we've used have gotten to around 300mb or more. Action scenes do take bandwidth, but bright, sharply defined frames also take more bandwidth. If the action is being motion blurred, often used in more realistic anime, the blurred image is going to take less bandwidth than a comedic scene where there's a lot of random hyper action but not much blurring.
Heh... You must not have seen many raws. It's all nice and well A-Kraze encodes the epis to the small size of 145MB it serves no purpose. At 145MB your still only fitting 4 per CDR, and their encode quality varies quite a bit. I've noticed quite a few epi's with gamma distortion, over blurring, color masking, overly or incorrectly decimated frames, as well as other small mistakes. I'm not gunna just point them out cause a lot of encodes have the same quality errors.
As someone who deals with raws more then I'd like to, I can say that the raws 90% of the time are way better looking then the fansub releases. Currently the normal size of a raw 23-25min episode is 220MB-270MB. I've even seen them get as big as 450MB, but that?s very rare.
Personally, I think it doesn't matter if the fansub version is 180MB-200MB if the quality is good. If it was that big and was a really poor encode I could see bringing attention to that. But that?s not the issue. Are you really that strapped for cash that a "FREE" fansub is so expensive that you need to be thrifty with $0.20 cds?
The best solution I can think of is if it?s that big of a deal, recompress the media further yourself. People are always saying that fansubbers treat leechers poorly, and I think we tend to get aggravated when you want us to spend even more of our time to make your life more convenient. I'm not saying that?s what?s going on but really this was something really picky or even spoiled to post about.
Maybe it would be better if it was still hard as hell to even find a fansub, or you still had to pay for the Blank tape cost and shipping just to watch a few not so high quality episodes that you had no complaints about as long as you could see an anime not available among the 17 videos they had for rent at blockbuster during the infancy of fansubbing.
I know that like 90% of those who read this won?t agree with me, and that?s fine. I also know that about 1/10 of the people here learned about anime before toonami, and 1/15 before Saturday anime that sci-fi use to have. I'm not saying that they are any less of fans, but I am saying that those 9/10 don't appreciate how nice it is that obtaining anime takes less effort then cooking instant ramen....
Oh and sorry to a-kraze staff for singling you all out and all. It's just that you were the most convenient, and I can't use encoders in my group because I got to work with this people... I'm not trying to have my TS's all of a sudden become all big, or really small, or a bunch other things that can be done to make my life harder -_-
Oh and if anything?s misspelled deal with it, I'm too tired to give a damn at the moment...
Well its true that our raws are FUBAR, that's because we don't have a large variety to choose from. And since we have more or less to none raw suppliers we just have to use what we managed to get and I bet u've seen those raws from 120-180mb. But if u feel like supplying those 220+ raws u mentioned above, please do so. We don't have HQ raws nor do we have any fast suppliers. And if you want to know about our abilities, the only way to show them is by our dvdrips. The lastest dvdrip we have is Tenchi OAV3 ep1, feel free to comment on it.
JediNight
2003-12-25, 05:28
DVDrips don't really show much IMHO. Improving a bad raw shows more mettle than spitting out a DVDrip, thats insanely easy in my book at least.
Enchancing raws is something you do when u have details, aka lines that u see on debug modes. When the picture is all smoothed out you cant do nothing, not even mftoon script can help you and his script is pretty good btw, too bad some encoders overuses it.
EDIT: Oh, if u can prove me I'm wrong please do so.
EDIT2: I forgot to say that usually big groups have more or less a huge variety of hq raws and since there are some private caps in some big groups they can easily get HDTV raws which is actually better than DVD source. PS. Tenchi OAV3 DVD isn't really that great.
ChibiDusk
2003-12-25, 08:35
I say, movies should be 600MB
Normal quality eps 175
and high quality eps 200
Those sizes seem to work good.
JediNight
2003-12-25, 16:08
*shudder* mftoon... Don't get me wrong, mf is a great guy, and he can AVS script like nobodies business, but mftoon is way too much. There are so many things stacked that alter the anime so greatly into lines that are too thin. Not all anime is meant to have super-thin over-sharp lines. In fact, alot of animes are drawn fairly softly, and murdering it with mftoon alters from the authors original intention.
That's what I'm talking about, the thing with mftoon is that you dont actually make the line thinner but rather just leave it as it is and make it darker, its just a trick like how encoders uses cwarp. But still cwarp doesn't work very well on smoothed raws as well :p
Enragin_Angel
2003-12-25, 17:17
That's what jedi was saying...some animes weren't drawn with as dark lines as mftoon may make it out to be.
Well the thing is with raws are that you dont really know how the lines and colors looks like unless you go to their website and try to fix it so they look like the colors from the pics taken there, so with or without mftoon doesn't really mean anything untill you altar the color/contrast/brigthness settings. One thing for sure is that you can find many diff raws which looks totally different for each show, anyhow you said altering the authors work is bad, then explain why most fansub encoders are using one or another form of warpsharping+2d/3dcleaning? Wouldn't that be like overfiltering the show? since not every show which comes out on DVD have the darklines/sharpedges/very clean picture.
Enragin_Angel
2003-12-26, 03:28
Because they read guides that keep telling em to use it and never really test for themselves.
JediNight
2003-12-26, 17:14
"then explain why most fansub encoders are using one or another form of warpsharping+2d/3dcleaning? Wouldn't that be like overfiltering the show?"
Exactly right. Alot of encoders DO overfilter the show :) Smoothers and Warpsharp are the most commonly abused filters, then you have the people who like to make huge 10 filter chains taking 20hrs to encode as well. Most raw source today (from satellite or a nice cable capture) needs a light cleaner and possibly a sharpen depending on how the lines look to begin with.
"then explain why most fansub encoders are using one or another form of warpsharping+2d/3dcleaning? Wouldn't that be like overfiltering the show?"
Exactly right. Alot of encoders DO overfilter the show :) Smoothers and Warpsharp are the most commonly abused filters, then you have the people who like to make huge 10 filter chains taking 20hrs to encode as well. Most raw source today (from satellite or a nice cable capture) needs a light cleaner and possibly a sharpen depending on how the lines look to begin with.
Look at it this way then, if there weren't for encoders using different method to decieve their viewers in the first place, there wouldn't be demand for encoders since everybody can encode a raw with subs only. But still if u want to decieve ur viewers u still need medium to HQ raws to start with. So in the end its the higher quality raws which is getting abused and not the sucky ones.
Enragin_Angel
2003-12-26, 20:46
Well, raws are getting better these days. Back then, these filters were needed because the captures werent too great. Now, its not needed so much.
Muir Woods
2004-09-26, 01:55
It’s a bit hard for me to create this post, as burning anime is sensitive subject, and I don’t want to sound ungrateful. And I know there’s already a similar thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=1348). But anyways, I’ve just recently bought a new DVD burner (it’s a BenQ DW1620, capable of burning dual layers, read my profile for more details). We all know burning DVDs are becoming more and more common, and blank DVDs are decreasing in price. I just found a spindle of 100 blank (single layer) DVD-R at Futureshop here for just $69.99 Canadian (that’s about $49.99 US). At about 70 cents (50 cents US) per blank DVD, it’s actually more cost-effective for me to buy blank DVDs than CDs. This means I won’t buy blank CDs anymore (unless I want to burn music). Which brings me to my point.
Most fansubbers release their episodes with their file sizes divided (roughly) evenly to fit a number of episodes on a (700MB) CD. Eg: five 140 MB episodes, or four 175 MB episodes, or three 233 MB episodes. Maybe fansubbers should consider releasing episodes divided evenly to fit for a 4.3GB blank DVD? Because most of the time when I try to burn episodes onto a DVD, I end up not using up some free space, thus losing it. For example, I’ll be able to put 24 175MB episodes on a blank 4.3GB DVD, but that leaves 100MB left of unused (and therefore lost) space. I know 100MB (or 65MB or 20MB or whatever) free space may sound trivial in a 4.3GB DVD, but I’m one of those guys that likes to use up as much space as possible in a disk :heh: . And if I burn a lot of DVDs, those lost space will add up. I burn 10 DVDs, I lose about 1GB of space (and maybe even more, if the lost space per DVD is high).
I know for shorter series (eg. 12 or 13 episode series), the file sizes may be gigantic when divided evenly into a 4.3GB disk. But maybe fansubbers can squeeze two short series (about 24-26 episodes) into one 4.3GB disk with relatively good file sizes (165MB-179MB). Also, maybe consider dividing file sizes evenly to dual layered 8.5GB DVDs, or double sided 9.4GB DVDs, or even double sided dual layer 17GB DVDs…but I guess that’s for the distant future. For more info on DVDs sizes, go here (http://www.videohelp.com/dvd). And oh, thank you all fansubbers for your work :) , and I'm grateful for the animes you sub.
you make a lot of sense.
i never got why 140mb ones and 175mb ones were different if not same?
what is the difference between them anyway?
but i dont burn my animes because after i see them once, im not going to be seeing it again. unless i pass onto my next generations and stuff. :heh: :heh:
I totally agree with what you say, but until the fansubbers are willing to compromise, one solution I found is to edit out the OP and ED of 2-3 episodes (how many depends on how much unused space is on your DVD). That way you can free up space to fit one more episode onto the DVD.
Have you considered the archival qualities of those 40-50 cent DVDs? Not to mention the ultra-cheap CDs?
http://forums.animesuki.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=281
Where do you fall in that list? For most of the popular fansub titles out there, they'll be licensed and avaliable in full in 1-3 years, so maybe it doesn't matter if you're archiving it for the < 5 year timeframe.
And the world does not revolve around one subset of a group of people, consider that the difference for CD-R users is much greater than DVD-R users. You're complaining about an at most 5% inefficiency in space usage when your proposed solution would cause up to 7 times that ineffiency for CD-R users. Seriously just look at the big picture and learn to live with the 5%.
And if you have time to resize 2-3 files per DVD by stripping the OP/ED, seems like a real pain... spend that time watching the anime instead of having to archive it.
Killerattacks
2004-09-26, 05:18
Fansubbers shouldnt change their encoding sizes IMHO. Im perfectly fine with 140Mb,175Mb and 233Mb encodes. There is no need to change that.
CompShrink
2004-09-26, 06:41
And if you have time to resize 2-3 files per DVD by stripping the OP/ED, seems like a real pain... spend that time watching the anime instead of having to archive it.
Um, actually, you set vrtualdub to direct stream copy the video and audio, and you're looking at around 1 minute to find the end of the OP and begining of ED, and a massive 3-4 minutes of time to "reencode" without actually reencoding... some other programs might even be faster at it. It's not like you have to stare at the screen while it's reencoding, you can go to other stuff...
And honestly, I doubt the random ones deter that many people when CDRs are dirt cheap, so might as well be nice and make them 175, or 233 if you must have the higher quality, which IMHO is rarely needed.
Um, actually, you set vrtualdub to direct stream copy the video and audio, and you're looking at around 1 minute to find the end of the OP and begining of ED, and a massive 3-4 minutes of time to "reencode" without actually reencoding... some other programs might even be faster at it. It's not like you have to stare at the screen while it's reencoding, you can go to other stuff...
You're right that re-streaming is passive time (and much quicker than 3-4 minutes passive with a good setup) but having to do this on 2-3 files per DVD, that's 2-3 minutes active time per burn, esp. with the seek times in the latest codecs (I-frame ~300 frames, then lots of B frames). And then if you are archiving to trade it later, you're messing up some of your files, you trade with someone else in the future and he complains the .sfv (crc-32) codes don't match the specified ones on the fansub website, etc. A trader doesn't necessarily want to have to watch everything he just traded for to ensure it is genuine / not corrupt, many traders are just trying to build a larger collection, or acting as intermediaries (trading for stuff they know others will want or 'rare' stuff, and have no intention of watching), and so on. Either way and whatever you do, have fun, just seems like a waste to me.
It's pretty easy to cut the OP/ED from a few files to make stuff fit. You probably want a fast processor and a good amount of decent RAM, as well as a fast hard disk. You can jump through key-frames in vdub by pressing shift while pressing the arrow keys, making it easier and faster to find the keyframe closest to the end of the OP and the beginning of the ED. Also, if you're doing this for DVDs you probably only need to resize a few episodes. On my setup I can cut the OP/ED from a file in about a minute or two...direct stream copy takes less than 30 seconds on my Athlon 1.8ghz Barton. Of course, if you have an old Celeron or something it might take 3 minutes or more.
Muir Woods
2004-09-26, 22:46
I totally agree with what you say, but until the fansubbers are willing to compromise, one solution I found is to edit out the OP and ED of 2-3 episodes (how many depends on how much unused space is on your DVD). That way you can free up space to fit one more episode onto the DVD.
Hmm...that's a good idea, I'll try doing that for a couple of episodes in a long anime series. But I do prefer to keep the files intact, and as Access said, changing the files would mean changing the hash of the file and you can't share happen to seed it anymore from the original torrent (should the urge to seed arise...yeah right :rolleyes: ).
I just found another annoying quirk of burning DVDs. I was trying to burn 24 episodes of an anime, and it was 512K over the limit. The thing is I can't overburn DVDs, whatsoever! I had to remove an episode, resulting an unused space of 230MB. I thought it was just my program or DVD burner, but after much googling and forum browsing of other sites, overburning DVDs is not possible...yet :upset: (here's one of the more informative thread (http://forum.firmware-flash.com/viewtopic.php?t=14987&highlight=) that I found. But I guess that's another topic to discuss. But just a warning for fansubbers who decides to divide files evenly for DVDs, make sure they're a bit UNDER the specs, not over, at least, not yet.
And the world does not revolve around one subset of a group of people, consider that the difference for CD-R users is much greater than DVD-R users. You're complaining about an at most 5% inefficiency in space usage when your proposed solution would cause up to 7 times that ineffiency for CD-R users. Seriously just look at the big picture and learn to live with the 5%.
Aww, I have to wait until DVD-R burners becomes the majority (DVD-R users > CD-R users), before fansubbers starts parsing out files for DVDs? Ok folks, everyone, buy a DVD burner. NOW! :bash: . Price is not an obstacle! DVD burners are affordable now. I got my for $99 dollars Canadian after rebate (yes, that's about $75 bucks US). What are you waiting for? GO NOW :heh: !
Personally, I try my best to keep all my encodes both CD and DVD friendly. I think that is the mentality of most fansub encoders too.
Burning onto DVD isn't usually a problem because you can split series onto two DVDs (1-13 of one series, 1-13 of another, x2) or cut out the OP/ED sequences. You can also try reencoding certain eps.
Although I do archive my group's works as a record of achievement ^^;, I do not really care that much that they fit on x amount of DVDs. I feel that DVD-Rs are cheap enough nowadays and fansubs aren't supposed to be made for archiving. If you want to collect series, you buy the real DVDs. Thus, that is why I think the whole 'we must make our episodes EXACTLY 175MB' deal kind of stupid. Make it big enough to satisfy your quality standards. I don't want one episode of fast motion in 175mb when 200mb should be better and I don't want the next episode of slow motion to be 175mb when it could have been 150mb.
Ummm...
U cannot choose the size of the release...
The size depends on: the size of the RAW, number of filters used, the filters used, methods & codec used for encoding...
So as u see the encoder cannot make all ep or even one ep the size he/she wants to...
Size of the raw has nothing to do with the size of the release =P
Nor the filters. Its all in the quant (compression) of the codec used.
I can use no filters and still make a good 170 MB codec and i can make a 10 MB encode too =P
its not so hard to fuckup encodes.
The quality of encodes relies on the quality of the raw, wich filters are used and how they are used and of course codec settings =P
Size of the raw has nothing to do with the size of the release =P
Nor the filters. Its all in the quant (compression) of the codec used.
I can use no filters and still make a good 170 MB codec and i can make a 10 MB encode too =P
its not so hard to fuckup encodes.
The quality of encodes relies on the quality of the raw, wich filters are used and how they are used and of course codec settings =P
A noisy raw means there is more overhead for the compression, for instance if you compress a noisy raw at q=3 and a 190mb file, you compress a clean (or well-filtered) raw at q=3 and get a 140mb file, the overhead from noise is about 50+mb. Size is not based on codec compression alone. Look at the habit VHS captures "oppai fansubs" did, that is a good example of a poor raw adversely affecting file sizes (and those are xvid q=5, most stuff out there today is much higher quality, around xvid q=3).
SirCanealot
2004-09-27, 20:27
Heh, and XVid's (oh, don't make me get into DivX 311. No, don't! Because I don't know jack about DivX3!) way of dealing with noise on uber low quality sources is to basically take the source file and take a leak on it, removing random detail, smudging more detail, then stamping on it with a sqaure-shaped stamp (you know, add the blocking :P) singing "LALALALALAL!!!".
And I have claim on complaining about modern digital raws too.
I should be ashamed.
Damn, where am I getting this metaphor from?
I should be ashamed.
News Flash, XviD has Target Size =p
my encodes have never been more than 1 MB off from the targeted size no matter what quality the raw =P
GipFace, fansubs can't replace your R1s anyway because you can't watch DivX on your DVD player. If fansubs were for replacing DVDs, they would be released in SVCD format.
Actually, there are now DVD players that support DivX 4 and DivX 5 (and XviD if fourcc'ed to DivX5) playback. Since DivX 3 is a hack, it doesn't work.
But anyway, you missed the boat. Think carefully about what I'm referring to ...
That is just bull____ i have a player that supports it all, XVID DX50 MPEG MPEG2 DIV3 DIV4 and more.
They make them in germany.
News Flash, XviD has Target Size =p
my encodes have never been more than 1 MB off from the targeted size no matter what quality the raw =P
Obviously you havent encoded long enuff to have meet oversized or undersized encodes.
Take Care
Sakaki-
That is just bull____ i have a player that supports it all, XVID DX50 MPEG MPEG2 DIV3 DIV4 and more.
They make them in germany.
Mine was made in Mexico and its called an Xbox :p
relentlessflame
2004-09-28, 14:04
[...]I do not really care that much that they fit on x amount of DVDs. I feel that DVD-Rs are cheap enough nowadays and fansubs aren't supposed to be made for archiving. If you want to collect series, you buy the real DVDs. Thus, that is why I think the whole 'we must make our episodes EXACTLY 175MB' deal kind of stupid. Make it big enough to satisfy your quality standards. I don't want one episode of fast motion in 175mb when 200mb should be better and I don't want the next episode of slow motion to be 175mb when it could have been 150mb.I completely agree with this - DVD+Rs are so cheap that who cares if it takes one or two discs. I'm not exactly going for a professional archiving system here... I just want to be able to find stuff for when I want to watch it again. Sometimes I'll even burn multiple series onto one disc as it's being released, and then span onto second/third discs as the first disc gets full. As long as I can find things, then I don't care. The R1 discs are my true "collection".
As for my reason for backing things up to DVD... I travel a lot, and like to bring my anime with me. Although I actually do buy the R1 DVDs for fansubbed series I followed, I don't like bringing my R1 discs with me for fear of them getting lost or stolen. I'd rather keep them "safe" at home, and just bring my expendable DVD+Rs with me. (I guess I'm hedging my bets - if one gets lost, I'll still have the other.)
Obviously you havent encoded long enuff to have meet oversized or undersized encodes.
^_^, pwned.
Sergejack
2004-10-01, 18:39
You should try the VP6 codec, it's awesome.
You sure can make a good looking 25min video using only 80-100mo with it.
And if you know how to use filters (avisyth/vdub) you can really keep a good quality with the lowest bitrate ever.
I vote for anime to have a resolution of 1600x1200 with a file size of 8 bits or less so I can fit 4.7 billion eps on one DVD-R!
Personally I don't really care if I can't fit 4 eps per cd. I doubt anyone does. CD-Rs are like, what, 6 cents? I'll probably burn it even if you make it 400MB per ep, as long as the quality matches the size. This discussion is kinda dumb. R2s are the way to go for archiving.
That and maintaining the same size for every ep has flaws. I know some people would encode the final to 175MB even if their raw was only 110MB. There's no point to enlarge the size just to fit it nicely on a cd, the quality's still gonna be shit.
Raven_Zero
2004-10-02, 21:23
Maybe i'm just odd but i think that fansubs should have bad quality. And here is why i think that.
1. Small file size, less wasted bandwidth
2. People are gunna wanna buy the dvds to get the quality.
3. If people dont buy the dvd's there only getting a bad copy of the orignal.
I've only watched a few fansub mostly One Piece, FMA, Naruto and Gantz
And i have every intention of buying the dvd's when they are released.
Maybe i'm just odd but i think that fansubs should have bad quality. And here is why i think that.
1. Small file size, less wasted bandwidth
2. People are gunna wanna buy the dvds to get the quality.
3. If people dont buy the dvd's there only getting a bad copy of the orignal.
I've only watched a few fansub mostly One Piece, FMA, Naruto and Gantz
And i have every intention of buying the dvd's when they are released.
Heh, unforunately, that is an ideal that will never materialize.
1. encoders nowadays have too much ego that won't let them purposely make bad quality.
2. if they do that, who will download their version? (assuming there is an alternate)
3. it can be argued that if the vid is bad enough to be distracting, many may be less inclined to buy dvds.
I always try to make 26 eps dvdrip fit into one dvdr for collection and compact purpose (cutting op/ed and deleting dub audio track are the tricks) =p
btw, b-frame+highly compressable raw tend to make yr encode under-sized. I've encode bunch of dvds using b-frame and most of the time the results turn out to be 1.3gb instead of 1.4gb as specified....
Kawaii_tsunami
2004-10-07, 23:06
I just wonder.....
Why not keep the size of the eps. in 175 MB?
In that way you will get 4 eps on a 700 MB CD-r and 26 eps on a DVD+-r.....
Just a thought....what do you fansubbers think?
/Lonefox
kaizoku-fansubs has recently (or so) changed to approx. 233 mb/ep
Y?? um....correct me if im wrong..but i think its like..120 fps now..and its the new technology or whatever.....but..yea..i dink thats y
Personally I think this "Standard size" stuff is stupid. I would rather have higher quality than 4 eps on a CD.
Maybe i'm just odd but i think that fansubs should have bad quality. And here is why i think that.
1. Small file size, less wasted bandwidth
2. People are gunna wanna buy the dvds to get the quality.
3. If people dont buy the dvd's there only getting a bad copy of the orignal.
I've only watched a few fansub mostly One Piece, FMA, Naruto and Gantz
And i have every intention of buying the dvd's when they are released.
There are some series that will probably NEVER be released on DVD in america, don't you think fans of those kinds of shows deserve a HQ version? Due to region protection, $65 per DVD, and the lack of subtitles, imports are not options...
kaizoku-fansubs has recently (or so) changed to approx. 233 mb/ep
Y?? um....correct me if im wrong..but i think its like..120 fps now..and its the new technology or whatever.....but..yea..i dink thats y
Also 120fps is a bit much, it has nothing to do with "Technology", a lot of Japanese TV rips use that tho (It's basically what the TV sets the refresh rate to....the REGULAR video, depending on the type, is around 24 to 30 fps, the TV just duplicates frames).
Although I do archive my group's works as a record of achievement ^^;, I do not really care that much that they fit on x amount of DVDs. I feel that DVD-Rs are cheap enough nowadays and fansubs aren't supposed to be made for archiving. If you want to collect series, you buy the real DVDs. Thus, that is why I think the whole 'we must make our episodes EXACTLY 175MB' deal kind of stupid. Make it big enough to satisfy your quality standards. I don't want one episode of fast motion in 175mb when 200mb should be better and I don't want the next episode of slow motion to be 175mb when it could have been 150mb.
I agree and my bro outlaw55 always followed by that when he was encoding, but TONS of ppl bitched and complained....
120 fps in a released encode usually means:
1. the episode is hybrid 24/30 fps and the encoder was too lazy to correct for the 30 fps.
2. the episode is not in hybrid and the encoder doesn't know how/was too lazy to decimate.
120 fps in a released encode usually means:
1. the episode is hybrid 24/30 fps and the encoder was too lazy to correct for the 30 fps.
2. the episode is not in hybrid and the encoder doesn't know how/was too lazy to decimate.
Sometimes you just can't correct for it. What if it is an actual hybrid? What framerate do you want the resulting file in? If it's 24, you'll get not so smooth motion in the 30fps parts and if it's 30, you'll get ghosting on the 24 fps parts. The only real solution would be to use motion compensation, but that's still not very good yet.
hmmmmmmm...................................
Enragin_Angel
2004-10-08, 10:43
zalas just said that if u convert it to 24fps when the scene is truly 30fps, you will not get smooth motion. He said nothing about ghosting for 24fps scenes. Please pay attention to what you quote.
Sometimes you just can't correct for it. What if it is an actual hybrid? What framerate do you want the resulting file in? If it's 24, you'll get not so smooth motion in the 30fps parts and if it's 30, you'll get ghosting on the 24 fps parts. The only real solution would be to use motion compensation, but that's still not very good yet.
No you will get duplicate frames in the 24 part if you go for 30 fps.
No you will get duplicate frames in the 24 part if you go for 30 fps.
Sakaki is right, only if you DECREASE from 30 to 24 via interlace based methods do you get "ghosting"....
Yes, you can correct for it, or at least do a really good job of faking it.
Naruto 4th OP sequence is a great example. Kamui did some weird blending trick in the OP which makes the OP somewhat smooth but jerky at the same time.
If you have the skill, you'd do something like what mf did for Naruto OP ;). He combined 30 fps op with a 24 fps main ep in a smooth (though not as smooth as the raw) way. Hehe.
Sakaki is right, only if you DECREASE from 30 to 24 via interlace based methods do you get "ghosting"....
Not quite.
Ghosting is simply the result of frames getting blended. If you do use zeroth order hold based upsampling in time, you will just get duplicate frames, which makes the motion jerky. If you do linear interpolation and then upsampling, you will get ghosting.
Same goes for downsampling. If you do the normal I'll drop a frame every four frames, then you'll get choppy motion (based on the zeroth order hold model). If you try to do linear interpolation, you'll get ghosting.
Video is not like audio. Video is three dimensional (2D frames across time) whereas audio is only two dimensional (1D wave across time). While linear resampling in audio might not be that bad, linear resampling in video across time is problematic.
The reason you get ghosting via incorrect interlace processing is because you are essentially blending two fields that aren't from the exact same frame.
Not quite.
Ghosting is simply the result of frames getting blended. If you do use zeroth order hold based upsampling in time, you will just get duplicate frames, which makes the motion jerky. If you do linear interpolation and then upsampling, you will get ghosting.
Same goes for downsampling. If you do the normal I'll drop a frame every four frames, then you'll get choppy motion (based on the zeroth order hold model). If you try to do linear interpolation, you'll get ghosting.
Video is not like audio. Video is three dimensional (2D frames across time) whereas audio is only two dimensional (1D wave across time). While linear resampling in audio might not be that bad, linear resampling in video across time is problematic.
The reason you get ghosting via incorrect interlace processing is because you are essentially blending two fields that aren't from the exact same frame.
....you just said i was wrong and said the same thing (little different, I didn't mention blending, but deinterlacing the interleced downframe would do the same thing...anyways). The point is we are talking about 120fps here, NOT 30 converting to 24....
SirCanealot
2004-10-08, 15:19
120fps has jack to do with TVs.
It's just a hack-job method of forcing Variable Frame Rate into .avi containers.
He combined 30 fps op with a 24 fps main ep in a smooth (though not as smooth as the raw) way. Hehe.
He didn't combine jack; all he did was "decimate" the op/ed sequance with Motion Perfect :P
....you just said i was wrong and said the same thing (little different, I didn't mention blending, but deinterlacing the interleced downframe would do the same thing...anyways). The point is we are talking about 120fps here, NOT 30 converting to 24....
He said you get ghosting when converting 30fps segments to 24fps using linear interpolation. Fair enough, right? You don't just get ghosting from interlacing, or whatever.
120fps has jack to do with TVs.
It's just a hack-job method of forcing Variable Frame Rate into .avi containers.
Accually your TV does reproduce frames and PLAY at 60fps. Some even play up to 120fps, really this is all in the refresh rate of the TV tho and such. (Altho this would have nothing to do with capturing).
You don't just get ghosting from interlacing, or whatever.
As I mentioned before, if you DEINTERLACE it, you will get ghosting, same thing as blending frames :P
He didn't combine jack; all he did was "decimate" the op/ed sequance with Motion Perfect :P
*laughs* You still believe that?
Btw, decimating the op/ed separately and then adding it into the final vid would be combining separate files with a main ep, no?
SirCanealot
2004-10-09, 07:40
Accually your TV does reproduce frames and PLAY at 60fps. Some even play up to 120fps, really this is all in the refresh rate of the TV tho and such. (Altho this would have nothing to do with capturing).
It's called "60hz", buddy.
And my TV does NOT reproduce frames at 60hz, it actually does it in 50hz (or 60hz if I please), since I live in PAL Scum Land.
And yes, I know about high refresh rate TVs, but what do they have to do with the price of fish?
As I mentioned before, if you DEINTERLACE it, you will get ghosting, same thing as blending frames :P
No, you don't get ghosting if you deinterlace properly.
*laughs* You still believe that?
Why wouldn't I believe that? I've done it myself (although, I never got the program cracked, or working correctly. I need to buy it, heh), and while the results were not as good as MF (looking at the opening pan in Naruto's current op), they were comparable (I mean, all I did was use the Wizard, and wait for a while).
I mean, I asked the man himself, and he freely told me, why would he lie? He also told me it wasn't quite as easy as it sounded, which I can accept, as there seemed to be more options than just the wizard in the proggy.
If not, then what did MF do? Wave his magic wand? Use some stupidly complicated/l33t command line program and spend 50 hours tweaking?
I don't like considering MF a god of encoding; I've seen his Naruto, and it in in no way perfect. Yes, I think he does well for 175 megs in a high-motion series, but it's still not perfect. From the way MF holds himself, he just seems like another normal guy, who is actually open to helping people, unlike some anal encoders, heh (mentioning no names, and just playing off a fairly common stereotype. Indeed, however: the few encoders I happen to talk with often are sometimes of help, and I myself are very free with my info, if you can keep up with my techno-bable ranting :P).
And yes, he does combine the op with the main episode, but he combines a 24fps op with a 24fps episode, so, meh~!
It's called "60hz", buddy.
And my TV does NOT reproduce frames at 60hz, it actually does it in 50hz (or 60hz if I please), since I live in PAL Scum Land.
And yes, I know about high refresh rate TVs, but what do they have to do with the price of fish?
They show the price of fish on TV :P, and the refresh rate makes it LIKE it is 60fps, it really doesn't reproduce them, you EYES view what looks like 60fps (altho it's just refreshing each frame once, same appearance as if you reproduced frames and played it on the computer).
No, you don't get ghosting if you deinterlace properly.
Deinterlacing blends two frames together, if you deinterlace two frames that are inbetween scene chagnes or ones that are REALLY different you get this ugly double image....COULD be called a ghost, but not reallly
SirCanealot
2004-10-10, 16:44
They show the price of fish on TV :P, and the refresh rate makes it LIKE it is 60fps, it really doesn't reproduce them, you EYES view what looks like 60fps (altho it's just refreshing each frame once, same appearance as if you reproduced frames and played it on the computer).
I meant what does 120hz refreshed TVs have to do with 120fps encoding?
And the answer is, incase you still don't get it: nothing.
Deinterlacing blends two frames together
Well done, smart ass. Maybe we should move you up a grade.
if you deinterlace two frames that are inbetween scene chagnes or ones that are REALLY different you get this ugly double image....COULD be called a ghost, but not reallly
That's why I said you don't get ghosting when something has been deinterlaced properly. Proper deinterlacing will avoid deinterlacing artifacts such as this one.
That's why I said you don't get ghosting when something has been deinterlaced properly. Proper deinterlacing will avoid deinterlacing artifacts such as this one.
WRONG, that depends on the source, if you MANUALLY put frames in, then no you won't get it , but if not it ALL depends on the SOURCE....dumbass....
my point was they were reproducing frames on capture to kind of emulate the way the TV displays the videos.
apparnetly ppl like you who are total dumb fucks are all over this forum, debating stuff that isn't logical and you never leave it alone til someone gives up, don't botehr to reply with your nonsense to try and "make yourself look better"...anyone what KNOWS what they are doing is just laughin' at you...i give up on this thread due to overpopulation of DUMB FUCKS like youSirCanealot...
SirCanealot
2004-10-10, 18:21
WRONG, that depends on the source, if you MANUALLY put frames in, then no you won't get it , but if not it ALL depends on the SOURCE....dumbass....
So, you're saying, there's no way to deinterlace in such an instance, unless you manually put a frame in? For starters, what do you mean by that? What kind of frame? I don't get it at all.
And of course it all depends on the soruce, but if you deinterlace properly, you won't get any ghosting or blending artifacts on your encodes.
my point was they were reproducing frames on capture to kind of emulate the way the TV displays the videos.
TVs display anime interlaced, and use 3:2 pulldown for 24fps stuff.
Now, what does this have to do with 120fps? 120fps has jack shit to do with TVs, or interlacing.
apparnetly ppl like you who are total dumb fucks are all over this forum, debating stuff that isn't logical and you never leave it alone til someone gives up, don't botehr to reply with your nonsense to try and "make yourself look better"...anyone what KNOWS what they are doing is just laughin' at you...i give up on this thread due to overpopulation of DUMB FUCKS like youSirCanealot...
Oh, now it's a personal attack on me, is it?
I don't respond with any nonsense; it's you who seems to have no idea what you're talking about. Actually, your English is kinda hard to understand, so maybe you do know exactly what you're talking about; just, I don't understand you.
Also: I'm not trying to make myself look better, nor do I care if anyone is actually laughing at me.
TVs display anime interlaced, and use 3:2 pulldown for 24fps stuff.
Now, what does this have to do with 120fps? 120fps has jack shit to do with TVs, or interlacing.
The TV refreshes at 60Hz etc. if it refreshes at 120Hz it APPEARS to the human eye that it is 120 frames, therefore some cappers thought they would IMITATE this by capturing at 120fps and such. THAT is what it is, is there a simple enough way to say it for your dumbfuck mind? Also YOu are the one mixing the two, it has NOTHING to do with interlacing you dumbfuck...
So, you're saying, there's no way to deinterlace in such an instance, unless you manually put a frame in? For starters, what do you mean by that? What kind of frame? I don't get it at all.
And of course it all depends on the soruce, but if you deinterlace properly, you won't get any ghosting or blending artifacts on your encodes.
Ok, apparently you don't get what a interlaced frame is, ever other line is one one picture, and the other lines are another picture, BLENDING that is how you would deinterlace OR reproduce one or the other (making it jittery looking on the edge). You are eitehr going to get BLENDING on that frame or a jittery look, THAT is what I'm talking about dumb fuck, and btw, LEARN english if you can't understand dumbass
SirCanealot
2004-10-10, 18:46
The TV refreshes at 60Hz etc. if it refreshes at 120Hz it APPEARS to the human eye that it is 120 frames, therefore some cappers thought they would IMITATE this by capturing at 120fps and such.
Okay, you don't understand how 120fps works, or why it is done. Please, go to Doom9.org, search for 120fps, and there will be several topics explaining why 120fps is done, and why it works in .avi.
Thank you very much.
And there are ways around both of the artifacts you have mentioned; I don't know exactly what they are - I am no expert in deinterlacing, but I know it can all be done.
And I have English A-Level, don' mess. If you like, I can go through all your posts, and tell you why it is I am having trouble understanding you, if you like.
NightWish
2004-10-10, 18:51
I don't want to close the thread; but for the last page you've made it increasingly hard to justify keeping it open. Please keep the "debate" civil and free from flames and insults or take it off this forum. If I see anyone making any more incendiary comments they get a week ban and the topic is closed. Thanks.
And there are ways around both of the artifacts you have mentioned; I don't know exactly what they are - I am no expert in deinterlacing, but I know it can all be done.
If you don't know anything about something then don't POST about it. Gennerally it is accomplished when you are dropping frame to get 24fps, most of those will be dropped so you won't see them. Most shows are fluent in motion enough taht the interlacing isn't too DRAMATIC, some american animation shows show REALLY bad tho and the frame differences are VERY different causing BAD blending views.
The TV refreshes at 60Hz etc. if it refreshes at 120Hz it APPEARS to the human eye that it is 120 frames, therefore some cappers thought they would IMITATE this by capturing at 120fps and such. THAT is what it is, is there a simple enough way to say it for your dumbfuck mind? Also YOu are the one mixing the two, it has NOTHING to do with interlacing you dumbfuck...
I don't know about TV refresh rates, but the reason for 120fps (119.88fps) is because it's the lowest common denominator to both 24fps (23.976fps x 5) and 30fps (29.97fps x 4) video. This lets the 24fps and 30fps video be combined together and play smoothy instead of having to sacrifice one or the other with inserting or removing frames.
I'm not even going to bother reading past the first few posts in this thread, because I'm sure the rest is tripe.
Bottom line: Any fansub group that goes over 175 MB/ep is full of themselves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - we're not supposed to replace the DVDs here. "Oh, we want to do the best job we ca..." shut up. Smaller encodes are like smaller cars. They do everything but carry extra crap better.
Smaller encodes are easier to distro, easier to store, easier to everything.
People need to get off this banal 'quality' bandwagon. Your oversized encodes impress the DBZ generation. Now go sub SEED Destiny.
I'm not even going to bother reading past the first few posts in this thread, because I'm sure the rest is tripe.
Bottom line: Any fansub group that goes over 175 MB/ep is full of themselves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - we're not supposed to replace the DVDs here. "Oh, we want to do the best job we ca..." shut up. Smaller encodes are like smaller cars. They do everything but carry extra crap better.
Smaller encodes are easier to distro, easier to store, easier to everything.
People need to get off this banal 'quality' bandwagon. Your oversized encodes impress the DBZ generation. Now go sub SEED Destiny.
As I have stated before, some shows may NEVER make it to american, I think the hardcore fans of those shows deserve a HQ version to watch if it never does make it over here.
As I have stated before, some shows may NEVER make it to american, I think the hardcore fans of those shows deserve a HQ version to watch if it never does make it over here.
Yes, and those hardcore fans can save up/scrounge up the money it takes to purchase legit DVDs from Japan if they are hardcore enough. Region isn't an issue because If you're willing to download illegal copies of animation, then why wouldn't you be willing to get a region free DVD player?
Yes, and those hardcore fans can save up/scrounge up the money it takes to purchase legit DVDs from Japan if they are hardcore enough. Region isn't an issue because If you're willing to download illegal copies of animation, then why wouldn't you be willing to get a region free DVD player?
If they do not know japanese then then it is just a waste of money, because you can't understand the show.
LordBrian
2004-10-10, 19:47
Hardcore fans will make the sacrifice and actually educate themselves!
Hardcore fans will make the sacrifice and actually educate themselves!
so YOU say, you are not everyone, and don't give me this shit about it "being wrong" you guys do it EVERY day by downloading fansubs, so you really can't say SHIT about that :P
LordBrian
2004-10-10, 21:25
If you would please quote the person in this thread who said that downloading fansubs is wrong, I would be greatly appreciative since I can't seem to find it myself. Either that, or stop putting words in our mouths to justify whatever twisted argument you're trying to make.
If you would please quote the person in this thread who said that downloading fansubs is wrong, I would be greatly appreciative since I can't seem to find it myself. Either that, or stop putting words in our mouths to justify whatever twisted argument you're trying to make.
The only one that said it was the people who created the international copyright laws. By downloading "fansubs" without written or any other type of consent from the original creators or copyright holders, we are violating international copyright laws and can be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Since a certain show is not LICENSED in the United States the copyright is still upheld by the Japanese copyright holders. If the Japanese company wished for fansubs of a certain show to cease, they COULD take it to extreme measures in tracking down and prosecuting anyone involded and COULD prosecute anyone who downloads/distributes the files over the internet.
wraith985
2004-10-11, 00:52
I'm not even going to bother reading past the first few posts in this thread, because I'm sure the rest is tripe.
Bottom line: Any fansub group that goes over 175 MB/ep is full of themselves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - we're not supposed to replace the DVDs here. "Oh, we want to do the best job we ca..." shut up. Smaller encodes are like smaller cars. They do everything but carry extra crap better.
Smaller encodes are easier to distro, easier to store, easier to everything.
People need to get off this banal 'quality' bandwagon. Your oversized encodes impress the DBZ generation. Now go sub SEED Destiny.
I notice that among the copious number of positions listed next to your name on your staff page, one of them reads "Quality Cont" (which I assume means quality control). Hm...interesting. Now, if everyone needs to get off the "banal quality bandwagon" (per your previous post) , why do you have such a position? Surely, since your group is not trying to replace DVDs in any way shape or form, you can just churn out a sub and not have to bother checking it for encode errors or editing mistakes or anything of the sort, right?
Your post also references 175MB as a 'magic number' of sorts when deciding when an encode is 'too big', and in fact you use 175MB for each of your GaoGaiGar episodes. Why? Since smaller is better ("easier to everything"), why didn't you encode at 100MB and fit 7 to a CD? Or why not even fit an entire 26-episode series on one disc, and make each episode 26.923MB? Two CDs would work too - 53.846MB per episode. Or, make it like your encodes of Panda Z - just under 50 MB per episode. Surely, this would leave out all the 'extra crap' and leave just the barebones of animation and subs, right? Why should four episodes per CD be the standard? Where are you pulling these arbitrary numbers from? While we're at it, where do you draw the line? Is 175.01MB too much? 175.02? How about 175.99? 176? 177? 178?
You obviously try your hardest when translating, timing, editing, typesetting, and checking the overall quality of your episode. If a line looks and reads like absolute crap, you TS it and edit it. If a line makes no sense, then you spend more time listening to that line to see if you can make sense of it in the TL phase. If the episode blurs and generally just looks bad at 175MB, then why should you not try your hardest to make it look good? If it means bumping the encode to 233, so be it - what's wrong with that?. How is bumping an encode from 175 to 233 any worse than 140 to 175, or 100 to 140? Why is it okay to make a 140MB encode 175MB instead, but not to make a 175MB encode 233MB?
My belief is that sub viewers shouldn't have to deal with anything that a TV viewer shouldn't have to, and that includes macroblocking, motion blurs, general blurriness, and things like that. What's egotistical about that?
Finally, if you weren't on the same "banal quality bandwagon" as the rest of us, then you wouldn't be editing (understandable is good enough - not meant to replace DVDs, right?), you wouldn't be QCing (errors are OK - not meant to replace DVDs, right?), you wouldn't be doing karaoke (no kanji or romaji required, and obviously no fill effects - not meant to replace DVDs, right?) and you would MOST DEFINITELY not be styling the subs themselves (what are you, trying to make your subs look *better* than DVDs? Unthinkable!).
I think it's the height of hypocrisy that you scorn others for caring about release quality while simultaneously occupying a position that requires you to check exactly that. While I respect your opinion and agree to an extent (fluffing out an encode purely for the sake of hitting a certain file size, for example, is stupid), your post smacks of an "I'm-better-than-you" mentality that infuriates me. I also think you need to reevaluate your definition of "oversized encode" in a world where one disc holds over 4GB of data (and will soon hold 8.5GB, thanks to dual-layer DVD technology).
EDIT: I'm really sorry if that sounded snappish; it wasn't meant to be, but I think it turned out that way...
Hardcore fans will make the sacrifice and actually educate themselves!
I call bullshit. I know people who have been hardcore into anime since the 1980's (as in they can remember when the last three Yamato movies were just coming out in Japan) and still haven't learned Japanese, even though they're more than willing to watch things raw. Learning a language is a lot of work - I've been studying German for four years now and I'm still not fluent. I can't imagine Japanese being much easier, especially when it comes to the rote memorization of Kanji. It's a lot of work, and it's not one that people are always willing to take up just to watch cartoons.
Your post also references 175MB as a 'magic number' of sorts when deciding when an encode is 'too big', and in fact you use 175MB for each of your GaoGaiGar episodes. Why? Why should four episodes per CD be the standard?
Personally, I think that 175MB/ep = 4/CD is the magic number because of tradition - regular VHS tapes (T-120) hold 4 episodes in SP mode, and CLV Laserdiscs could do 4 episodes as well. Similarly, there's a difference between DVD grade quality and watchable. I have yet to see a 175MB encode of anything look good enough to be worth keeping over a DVD, myself.
Or, make it like your encodes of Panda Z - just under 50 MB per episode. Surely, this would leave out all the 'extra crap' and leave just the barebones of animation and subs, right?
I'd answer this (since a-classic helps out with Panda), but I'm not personally involved so I can't.
If it means bumping the encode to 233, so be it - what's wrong with that?. How is bumping an encode from 175 to 233 any worse than 140 to 175, or 100 to 140? Why is it okay to make a 140MB encode 175MB instead, but not to make a 175MB encode 233MB?
I can't speak for N-Bomb, but I'll comment on what I've done in picking sizes for the stuff I've worked on:
God Mars - 175MB/Ep - long TV series, fitting VHS Standards
The Enemy's the Pirates - 233MB/Ep - OVA (higher grade animation), 6 eps, wanted an even 2-CD Split.
Combustible Campus Guardress - 350MB/Ep - OVA (very high grade animation), 4 eps, and one of the great "unlicensable due to bankruptcies in Japan" titles. Encoded with an extra high audio and video bitrate because it's being done primarily for con screenings.
My belief is that sub viewers shouldn't have to deal with anything that a TV viewer shouldn't have to, and that includes macroblocking, motion blurs, general blurriness, and things like that. What's egotistical about that?
The fact that you need glasses and don't have them. I've seen all of those things on regular TV.
then you wouldn't be editing (understandable is good enough - not meant to replace DVDs, right?),
I think we have differing meanings of "understandable" - I want the target audience of a show to be able to understand the text in one of my subs. GGG is aimed at 8 year olds, who can't process Engrish.
you wouldn't be QCing (errors are OK - not meant to replace DVDs, right?)
I'm a grammar nut myself, so I consider QC a must, tho there's always a couple that get through.
you wouldn't be doing karaoke (no kanji or romaji required, and obviously no fill effects - not meant to replace DVDs, right?)
I don't do Karaoke on my stuff (nothing from A-Classic has karaoke, it's a principle of the group), and Anime-in-Action has stopped doing Karaoke on their projects as well.
and you would MOST DEFINITELY not be styling the subs themselves (what are you, trying to make your subs look *better* than DVDs? Unthinkable!).
No offense to N-Bomb, but I wouldn't call GGG a pinnacle of font styling. Me, I'm happy with 100% Century Gothic, but my first fansubs were all Central Anime tapes that were done with nothing but minor size/colour variations of the JACO font on the Amiga, so I don't really mind.
I think it's the height of hypocrisy that you scorn others for caring about release quality while simultaneously occupying a position that requires you to check exactly that.
I think that some people have forgotten that there's a point of "good enough", myself.
[quote]I also think you need to reevaluate your definition of "oversized encode" in a world where one disc holds over 4GB of data (and will soon hold 8.5GB, thanks to dual-layer DVD technology).[/qutoe]
Some of us still don't have DVD burners and won't for the forseeable future. Likewise, I could turn that argument around and ask why groups aren't releasing DVD-spec MPEG-2 encodes instead of XviD stuff. After all, if an HK DVD company can cram 6 episodes onto a DVD-5 and maintain spec, why not fansubbers?
I'm really not trying to be argumentative (although I do anticipate a karma point burn for this), but most of what Bomb said makes sense and is valid. In the end, though, file size is like everything else in fansubbing: whatever makes the group putting it out happy. If I'm not happy with the size of an encode, I have no problem recompressing it to make it fit my personal 4 eps/cd requirement. I don't see why anyone else should find that to be so difficult to do for themselves.
I'm a grammar nut myself, so I consider QC a must, tho there's always a couple that get through.
We are human and do mistakes yet we strive to be better, flawless. All of QCers that I know do their best and there's not a single reason they couldn't perform a 'perfect' QC (especially the ones with talent and skills). I probably don't understand your stance here and currently I'm under the impression that your excluding _any_ possiblity for a perfect fansub release. With the people I'm working with I really see no reason why not to expect a perfect fansub release. (yet there are always people that try to input their own preferences into other people's minds)
My stand on fansub quality encodes: If a group has a capable encoder they can go as low as 140 MBs for a normal 24 minute anime show where others would go around 175 MBs and keep the quality on the same or even higher level. I don't like pointing fingers and compare encoders, though I will say it was done (I'm not an encoder, so I won't go into any encoding issues, I think they were explained enough).
Anime fansubs are not there to replace anime DVDs. Buy the DVDs.
wraith985
2004-10-11, 08:27
Personally, I think that 175MB/ep = 4/CD is the magic number because of tradition - regular VHS tapes (T-120) hold 4 episodes in SP mode, and CLV Laserdiscs could do 4 episodes as well. Similarly, there's a difference between DVD grade quality and watchable. I have yet to see a 175MB encode of anything look good enough to be worth keeping over a DVD, myself.
The 4-episode on VHS makes sense. I never said that a 175mb encode is worth keeping over a DVD (I am also a proponent of buying DVDs), so we're in agreement here.
The fact that you need glasses and don't have them. I've seen all of those things on regular TV.
How is anyone needing glasses egotistical? For that matter, how do you know I *don't* have glasses? I have an eye exam every year, thank you very much. You're right that there are occasional messups in tv broadcasts, but the more you compress an episode, the more those kinds of things will show up - they'll be magnified in the encode unless the encoder is VERY good at what he does and/or overfilters everything.
I think we have differing meanings of "understandable" - I want the target audience of a show to be able to understand the text in one of my subs. GGG is aimed at 8 year olds, who can't process Engrish.
Having never watched GGG, I can't speak to that, but I'm talking more generally awkward english or maybe misspellings or conversational language that may work irl but not when set as a sub. My point was that if fansubbers shouldn't 'do their best' (something N-Bomb apparently looks down on), then there's really no point in QCing anything, because that check is run to ensure that no mistakes have been made and that the team is putting out the (gasp!) best quality episode possible.
I'm a grammar nut myself, so I consider QC a must, tho there's always a couple that get through.
But QC isn't just about grammar...it's about overall episode quality, encode and all. That was my only point. I simply don't see the different between fixing translation/timing/editing/timing and fixing encoding. Also, see above as to why N-Bomb's attitude, taken to its logical conclusion, renders QC obsolete.
No offense to N-Bomb, but I wouldn't call GGG a pinnacle of font styling. Me, I'm happy with 100% Century Gothic, but my first fansubs were all Central Anime tapes that were done with nothing but minor size/colour variations of the JACO font on the Amiga, so I don't really mind.
See, my point was that he shouldn't be styling in the first place if he doesn't want any fluff in the encode.
I think that some people have forgotten that there's a point of "good enough", myself.
One person's 'good enough' may not be another person's 'good enough'. Someone could encode at 50 MB and be happy, but that might not fly with a lot of other people. The entire point of my post was to question N-Bomb's assertion that those who encode over 175mb are self-infatuated ego freaks. Maybe N-Bomb's standards are lower, but some encoders may not see 175mb as 'good enough' - and who is N-Bomb to judge those people?
Some of us still don't have DVD burners and won't for the forseeable future.
DVD writers aren't that expensive anymore. I bought a dual-format 8/4/4/2/32/16/40 external DVD writer for 120 dollars - that's two days' work at 8 dollars an hour.
Likewise, I could turn that argument around and ask why groups aren't releasing DVD-spec MPEG-2 encodes instead of XviD stuff. After all, if an HK DVD company can cram 6 episodes onto a DVD-5 and maintain spec, why not fansubbers?
I'm sure they can, but many I know hold the belief that fansubs are not to replace DVDs (an opinion that basically everyone in this discussion holds, as far as i can see) and thus encoding DVD-spec MPEG-2 encodes is not an option.
I'm really not trying to be argumentative (although I do anticipate a karma point burn for this), but most of what Bomb said makes sense and is valid. In the end, though, file size is like everything else in fansubbing: whatever makes the group putting it out happy. If I'm not happy with the size of an encode, I have no problem recompressing it to make it fit my personal 4 eps/cd requirement. I don't see why anyone else should find that to be so difficult to do for themselves.
See, I have no problem with N-Bomb being just happy with 175mb or less. The problem is that he took his position and belittled everyone else who doesn't share it. He's entitled to his opinion, and I respect that, but he really has no right to call people who don't share it 'full of themselves' or anything of the sort.
I really only had a problem with N-Bomb's attitude about quality (sure, not to replace DVDs, but I figure that we might as well do the best we can), and his putting down of anyone who doesn't share his beliefs. I don't think that's cool at all - hold your own opinions, and share them, but don't impose them on anyone else.
I didn't want to have to post again in this thread, but here it goes. Much will probably overlap Exe's thoughts.
I notice that among the copious number of positions listed next to your name on your staff page, one of them reads "Quality Cont" (which I assume means quality control). Hm...interesting. Now, if everyone needs to get off the "banal quality bandwagon" (per your previous post) , why do you have such a position? Surely, since your group is not trying to replace DVDs in any way shape or form, you can just churn out a sub and not have to bother checking it for encode errors or editing mistakes or anything of the sort, right? Yep, I do plenty. And yes, the website needs work. There's 'not enough' and there's 'too much'. I hear some groups QCing things 5 times... too much. No QC, of course, is 'not enough'. This is neither brain surgery nor art.
Your post also references 175MB as a 'magic number' of sorts when deciding when an encode is 'too big', and in fact you use 175MB for each of your GaoGaiGar episodes. Why? Why do it right? It's no coincidence that I think 175 is the best size to use currently, and that we use it.
Since smaller is better ("easier to everything"), why didn't you encode at 100MB and fit 7 to a CD? Or why not even fit an entire 26-episode series on one disc, and make each episode 26.923MB? Two CDs would work too - 53.846MB per episode. You know what's funny, I tried this. A long time ago when I was a nub and just teaching myself how to do everything, the original encodes of GGG were off OP/EDless HKDVDs, and I fit 10 eps per CD, using variable sizing to account for OP on ep 1, ED on ep 10 of each HKDVD. They looked like shit, and not just because I knew nothing about encoding.
Or, make it like your encodes of Panda Z - just under 50 MB per episode. Surely, this would leave out all the 'extra crap' and leave just the barebones of animation and subs, right? Why should four episodes per CD be the standard? Where are you pulling these arbitrary numbers from? While we're at it, where do you draw the line? Is 175.01MB too much? 175.02? How about 175.99? 176? 177? 178? Panda Z works out to be a nice 16 eps per CD, and assuming the series is 30 eps as I've heard, it'll fit nicely onto 2. Why 4 per CD? For one, for your average 52 ep series (most of which are older), 4 divides nicely into it to make 13 CDs. 26 ep shows get a little slop at 6.5 CDs, but that gives you some room for misc crap. The reason I said it's the best size "currently" is because codecs can only do so well in compressing things, yet they're advancing. Give it time, you may well BE ABLE to fit say, 8 eps on a CD, with quality equal to today's 175 MB eps. Also, given the future of bandwidth, we may not need to do that.
You obviously try your hardest when translating, timing, editing, typesetting, and checking the overall quality of your episode. If a line looks and reads like absolute crap, you TS it and edit it. If a line makes no sense, then you spend more time listening to that line to see if you can make sense of it in the TL phase. If the episode blurs and generally just looks bad at 175MB, then why should you not try your hardest to make it look good? If it means bumping the encode to 233, so be it - what's wrong with that?. Once again 'good enough'. If you think I'm trying my hardest, personally, you're WAY off. I do what I think is an acceptable job, and one that is far above some others' 'trying hardest', but I by no means obsess about little inconsequencials. Editing, good. Timing, I'll fix up sometimes. Translating... I play loose with it, but I take some time on certain lines. Encoding... I find settings that look decent and use them for all the rest of the eps, unless a codec changes (divx -> xvid for example). If it looks a little blurry, so what. As long as it isn't painful to watch, it's fine.
How is bumping an encode from 175 to 233 any worse than 140 to 175, or 100 to 140? Why is it okay to make a 140MB encode 175MB instead, but not to make a 175MB encode 233MB? 140 -> 175 is a LARGE (Depending on the source, but more often than not) gain in quality/drop in artifacts per MB of data, while going from 175 -> 233 is quite a diminishing return. You're going up 25% and 33% respectively in size, but the differences in 'quality' are fall fewer when going to 233.
My belief is that sub viewers shouldn't have to deal with anything that a TV viewer shouldn't have to, and that includes macroblocking, motion blurs, general blurriness, and things like that. What's egotistical about that? TV doesn't come into the equation at all. You don't pay for it, but someone certainly does, and that allows them the leisure to make a good quality product, free of the artifacts you mentioned. We're doing this for free, ostensibly to ASSIST the industry, why should we be making material that essentially provides people with a reason to NOT buy the legit product when it's available?
Finally, if you weren't on the same "banal quality bandwagon" as the rest of us, then you wouldn't be editing (understandable is good enough - not meant to replace DVDs, right?), you wouldn't be QCing (errors are OK - not meant to replace DVDs, right?), you wouldn't be doing karaoke (no kanji or romaji required, and obviously no fill effects - not meant to replace DVDs, right?) and you would MOST DEFINITELY not be styling the subs themselves (what are you, trying to make your subs look *better* than DVDs? Unthinkable!). Wow, this is retarded. It's one thing to make a script understandable... HKDVDs are one example (and they're getting better! Gasp!), and it's another to use proper english. Editing shouldn't even be considered work, it's common sense. As I said, QC is a 'good enough' thing. I consider that if an error makes it past one round of QC, unless it's something vital, like a mis-spelt name or a missing line, it's free, and good job escaping.
Don't get me started on the uselessness of karaoke in modern digisubs. I'm growing to abhor it, and I prefer to to partake in the practice. The newer GGG eps are about the most I'll do with 'karaoke' these days, if you need an example. Certainly the exploding shit that Spoon and other retarded groups do makes me want to tear out my eyeballs and stick them up my ass so I have more pleasant things to see.
Even romaji I'm rethinking, simply because you can HEAR it, and that's really all you need to learn to sing along.
I think it's the height of hypocrisy that you scorn others for caring about release quality while simultaneously occupying a position that requires you to check exactly that. Sorry, but you make it sound like some master carpenter working at his craft, and producing great works of art. I just don't see 'fansubbing' as like this. At least not anymore.
While I respect your opinion and agree to an extent (fluffing out an encode purely for the sake of hitting a certain file size, for example, is stupid), your post smacks of an "I'm-better-than-you" mentality that infuriates me. Certainly with the state of digisubbing these days, I DO think I'm 'better than you' (not you personally) with regards to alot of other garbage being release these days.
I also think you need to reevaluate your definition of "oversized encode" in a world where one disc holds over 4GB of data (and will soon hold 8.5GB, thanks to dual-layer DVD technology). Certainly, re-evaluation is needed from time to time, however, the criteria - storage size, transfer speed, and codec ability IMO - haven't suffiently changed yet. We have large storage, yes... and that's good for archiving. However, average bandwidth is still too slow to make transferring larger files conveneient, and the codecs really ARE good enough these days so that encodes really DON'T have to be much bigger.
Yes, the defenition of 'proper size' WILL change, (I see a day when bandwidth and storage are plentiful enough that lossy compression will be history and files are sent in seconds or minutes) but it won't be today, and it probably won't be for at least a couple, three years, if even that.
EDIT: I'm really sorry if that sounded snappish; it wasn't meant to be, but I think it turned out that way... You're allowed to. I sound like an ass, after all.
Doesn't mean I'm wrong, though. ;)
LordBrian
2004-10-11, 11:03
I call bullshit.
As well you should. I was making a ridiculously over the top and off topic comment to indicate my feelings for the argument Meatwad was trying to make.
I think N-Bomb's comments reveal that there are still many different schools of thought with regard to subbing. Some might want the absolute quality in their products, some prefer speed, and some don't care about either.
Some may definitely take the approach of saying, "Hey! I don't want to spend an hour reviewing everything and polishing up stuff that is fluff or embellishment to the episode."
That's fine. What we don't want is for one group to set a certain standard and forcibly impose that on everyone else, which will stifle creativity. There is enough freedom in the fansub world for different approaches to subbing.
That's part of the beauty of the scene, the fact that it's a "buyer's market" and not a seller's. Fansubbers put the releases out for anyone to watch. The viewer has the option of choosing among different groups and watching the show in the first place.
I think N-Bomb's comments reveal that there are still many different schools of thought with regard to subbing. Some might want the absolute quality in their products, some prefer speed, and some don't care about either.
Some may definitely take the approach of saying, "Hey! I don't want to spend an hour reviewing everything and polishing up stuff that is fluff or embellishment to the episode."
That's fine. What we don't want is for one group to set a certain standard and forcibly impose that on everyone else, which will stifle creativity. There is enough freedom in the fansub world for different approaches to subbing.
That's part of the beauty of the scene, the fact that it's a "buyer's market" and not a seller's. Fansubbers put the releases out for anyone to watch. The viewer has the option of choosing among different groups and watching the show in the first place.
YAY!!! SOMEONE MAKES A GOOD POINT :DDD
I TOTALLY agree with you ;)
SirCanealot
2004-10-11, 18:13
140 -> 175 is a LARGE (Depending on the source, but more often than not) gain in quality/drop in artifacts per MB of data, while going from 175 -> 233 is quite a diminishing return. You're going up 25% and 33% respectively in size, but the differences in 'quality' are fall fewer when going to 233.
I'm not going to be commenting on any of this chaos (as I, too believe in: "Do what you will, and I'll do what I will!"), but I thought I'd comment on this.
Now, while 175-233 CAN be a large improvement (yes, of course, depending on the source), it's not as large as a quality gain as 140-175, normally.
And for the record, I'll state currently, I sorta enjoy encoding to 175 megs. It acts as a challange: 233 megs would be too easy, and 140 megs too hard/would need to destroy quality too much. 175 megs allows for a decent ammount of quality and sharpness, while still not making it uber easy to pack down without blocking too much (and "too much" blocking for me isn't much :P).
But, I mean, if I felt the need to ever go past 175, I'd explain this need to the group, and I'd go past 175. If I could increase quality massively by encoding to 233, then same as.
But, as I said, it's all up to you, so do what yer like!
Quote and pointless incendiary comment removed
As I have stated before, some shows may NEVER make it to american, I think the hardcore fans of those shows deserve a HQ version to watch if it never does make it over here.
ZOMG SHQQQQQQQ!!!!!!
333 MB OF L33TNESS!
aceleader
2004-10-11, 18:48
blarblarblarblar
what... the... hell was that... :twitch:
NightWish
2004-10-11, 19:12
I gave you a warning and yet you still couldn't post without resorting back to insulting or antagonistic comments.
Three day holiday for Meatwad and SirCanealot.
Thread Closed.
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