View Full Version : Crest of the Stars
MantisShadow
2003-11-24, 09:29
Does anybody know how popular Crest of the Stars and its sequels were/are in Japan?
Popular enough to warrent animation of a second season
MantisShadow
2003-11-24, 09:57
Popular enough to warrent animation of a second season
Well I was really wondering if the second season (or should Seikai no Senki 2 be called a third season) is popular enough to warrant a follow up.
From what I could gather they were kind of waiting for the author to write some more novels.
Well I was really wondering if the second season (or should Seikai no Senki 2 be called a third season) is popular enough to warrant a follow up.
From what I could gather they were kind of waiting for the author to write some more novels.
As far as I know, Seikai no Senki 2 doesn't finish up the Seikai no Senki novels :/ Although Seikai no Monshou supposedly covered the first 3 novels (man, must've dropped a lot of stuff :))
NenMaster
2003-11-24, 20:53
crest of stars
banner of stars
banner of stars 2
must be popular :)
MantisShadow
2003-11-25, 07:36
Well I did figure it was popular simply from the no. of sequels. ;)
But I suppose I wanted a more tangible idea of its popularity, for e.g. its sales figures.
Zalas it may have dropped a lot of stuff from the novels but it still had the literary level of characterisation which piqued my interest.
Well I did figure it was popular simply from the no. of sequels. ;)
But I suppose I wanted a more tangible idea of its popularity, for e.g. its sales figures.
Zalas it may have dropped a lot of stuff from the novels but it still had the literary level of characterisation which piqued my interest.
Yeah, youre so right, I really liked the level of detail on the characters on this one. I hope it was popular enough for the makers to eventually decide on a sequel.
I love this series.
Check out this site for info about this series. http://seikai.no-ip.com/
Crest of the Stars is very good. The first episode is kinda boring though, but it is needed to set-up the story.
Mephisto03
2003-12-04, 19:12
I have the first boxset and so pissed cause there already on(for refrence puropses) the third season with no boxset on the second on?!?!?! I've been feening to watch the rest the though, can't wait for it to come over to the states complete. And I know there all on single dvds but thats a waste of money.
Just got the last dvd, so now I have all 10 dvds,
just go buy banner of the stars, dont wait for the boxset, because theres only three dvds each for banner of teh stars I and II, waiting for crest of the stars was worth it cause there was 4 dvds, but now you should just get them, believe me its worth it.
Mephisto03
2003-12-06, 23:21
Ya bastard, that was actually pretty convincing. Damn, I need money now. But If they come out with a boxset after I get them. ITS YOUR HEAD!
Kaoru Chujo
2008-08-14, 16:17
This was one of my early favorites when I started watching anime four years ago. On a whim, I watched episode one again last night. Now I am up to episode seven. This show is irresistible: great science fiction, great adventure, great romance, great characters. Lafiel above all. I still think of Crest as a masterpiece.
Lafiel is one of Kawasumi Ayako's best voices. And Koyasu Takehito as Baron Febdash strikes the right combination of weakness, determination, and wiliness. And of course, I have always loved Captain Lexshue, both for what she does and for what she is to Lafiel. Her seiyuu, Takashima Gara (now 53 years old, 44 in Crest) has shown up this year as Gioconda in Slayers Revolution.
I see so much more this second (or is it fourth?) time around.
And the novels are fairly easy Japanese. There is also a nice compendium in three $5 volumes called the "Seikai no Monshou Filmbook" 星界の紋章フィルムブック that retells the story with pictures from the anime liberally interspersed in a simplified text.
Wesley84
2008-08-14, 19:37
I can see alot of people liking the first series, but the second one blew junks.
Random Wanderer
2008-08-14, 19:56
Holy necromancy, Batman.
Kaoru Chujo
2008-08-14, 23:19
Holy necromancy, Batman.Lol. I had to search to find a thread to resurrect. But I'm proving to myself that this is a show with great rewatch value.
No question that the second and third series were not as good as the first, Wesley84. But I enjoyed them. I'll find out in the near future if they are rewatchable, too. As I recall, there was too much space battle and too little relationship for me in Banner I. I did enjoy the OVA that came out a couple of years ago.
Wesley84
2008-08-15, 02:23
They took Abh supremacy way too far if you ask me.
Finished Crest of stars and Banner of Star and about to start the second season...
From all the futuristic / spaceship series, this one is the one i liked the most. First of all the quality of the sarcastic jokes between the Abh cant be compared. Those Abh took "elegancy" to another level lol. Also the romance between Jinto and Lafei is very nice... kind of remainded me of Gundam Seed but much more elaborated. I wonder if there is some kind of marriage ceremony between the Abh or they just skip to the "mixing the genes" part... i hope to see some a bit more of love-lovey in the second season... took Lafei 2 whole seasons to accept that she cared about Jinto -.-
No question that the second and third series were not as good as the first, Wesley84. But I enjoyed them.
I'd argue that the third one is the best one among them all though, with the first season and the OVA closely following :p
This was one of my early favorites when I started watching anime four years ago.
Same here! In fact, I liked them so much I purchases the DVD sets for the first three series (the only reason I didn't pick up the fourth and last is because the OVA was never released in the US). Great stuff.
I can see alot of people liking the first series, but the second one blew junks.
I disagree. The first series, Crest of the Stars was great, but I thought Baner of the Stars and Banner of the Stars II (the second and third series) were just as good. The only one I found a bit disappointing was the Banner of the Stars III OVA, but even that was only in comparison to how good the others were.
Holy necromancy, Batman.
And if Kaoru had started a whole new thread instead, somone would have commented on that, too. :rolleyes:
anselfir
2008-09-10, 09:18
They took Abh supremacy way too far if you ask me.
not every show has to replicate the same RTS scenario for your 13 year old fancy. it is a stylistic decision and a decision necessary to portray a certain political atmosphere. the show would not reveal as much about japanese attitudes toward colonialism had it portrayed an equal struggle between various stellar empires a la galactic conquests. and i fucking know it is not an rts.
I hope that a new season comes.... we finally got to see some progress in Lafeil and Jinto's relationship in the ova >.<
Wesley84
2008-09-10, 13:17
not every show has to replicate the same RTS scenario for your 13 year old fancy. it is a stylistic decision and a decision necessary to portray a certain political atmosphere. the show would not reveal as much about japanese attitudes toward colonialism had it portrayed an equal struggle between various stellar empires a la galactic conquests. and i fucking know it is not an rts.
The noble, the perfect, the vastly superior Abh, ruled by a benevolant Monarchy and divided into eight, equal, ruling Houses. F-ing space elves. I hate every last one of them.
Xellos-_^
2008-09-10, 13:42
The noble, the perfect, the vastly superior Abh, ruled by a benevolant Monarchy and divided into eight, equal, ruling Houses. F-ing space elves. I hate every last one of them.
but they are sexy elves that never age :heh:
Wesley84
2008-09-10, 13:53
but they are sexy elves that never age :heh:
They aren't sexy. Their approach to "sex" is distilling reproductive fluids and growing babies in tubes.
DragoonKain3
2008-09-11, 15:17
I personally didn't like the third series mainly because...
1) not set in space - I love my space battles, ala starship operators/LoGH.
2) the two leads are mostly separated - which means very little romantic interaction between them for most of the series
And considering I got through the first series through 2) and the second series had both, I was let down with the third where it didn't have much sci-fi tech nor did it have much romance. As such, I was fast forwarding for most of the series, as the political mumbo jumbo just didn't hold my interest.
Of course, all the above is just IMO from what little I recall watching it years ago. Maybe I should rewatch it, as I did just recently buy all three.
anselfir
2008-09-11, 15:46
The noble, the perfect, the vastly superior Abh, ruled by a benevolant Monarchy and divided into eight, equal, ruling Houses. F-ing space elves. I hate every last one of them.
that's fine. the politics of the show is at best obtuse, but it can be taken as commentary in the fictional realism style. you are not supposed to genuinely root for any side or have a horse in the race, just watch the drama and style.
Wesley84
2008-09-11, 16:00
that's fine. the politics of the show is at best obtuse, but it can be taken as commentary in the fictional realism style. you are not supposed to genuinely root for any side or have a horse in the race, just watch the drama and style.
I liked Crest because of the personal interaction.
that's fine. the politics of the show is at best obtuse, but it can be taken as commentary in the fictional realism style. you are not supposed to genuinely root for any side or have a horse in the race, just watch the drama and style.
I would have to disagree with the rooting of sides thing. I personally can't help but root for the "space elves". The "United Mankind" in that universe, while not focused on heavily, is quite clearly portrayed as the "bad guys" with their ignorant religious zeal and nonsensical unwarrented xenophobia. The Abh's may have their own issues, but like it or not, they are just about as benevolant as you can get when it comes to empires and I would have no problem living in that kind of a society if given the choice between it and what is shown of the United Mankind.
I would have to disagree with the rooting of sides thing. I personally can't help but root for the "space elves". The "United Mankind" in that universe, while not focused on heavily, is quite clearly portrayed as the "bad guys" with their ignorant religious zeal and nonsensical unwarrented xenophobia. The Abh's may have their own issues, but like it or not, they are just about as benevolant as you can get when it comes to empires and I would have no problem living in that kind of a society if given the choice between it and what is shown of the United Mankind.
That isnt quite true... we saw the whole war from the point of view of Jinto and Lafiel so we coudnt see much of atrocities and things those "space elves" did to the humans...
After all, the Abh were the ones that started the war and simply took over planets and systems by force. The ones that surrendered were let to live but if they dared to resist, blowing up the planet would be a common thing for the Abh to do. Remember what was said when the prisioners took hostage of Jinto and were threatening Lafiel... the Abh were feared more than respected.
Jinto and Lafiel are expections withing the Abh society so we saw the kind / good side of them only.
They aren't sexy. Their approach to "sex" is distilling reproductive fluids and growing babies in tubes.
Actually that's not true. Just for an insight to anyone who took this seriously (Don't really care about the feelings of the poster here... I know his deal)
The Abh generally will grow their children artificially to insure the best perfection that can be attained. HOWEVER, they are more than welcome and capable to have children in the normal fashion. It's actually quite an interesting culture for that reason.
Just as well, babies are made from two sets of DNA, as would be expected of any normal one. It's just that most of theirs are produced in a lab rather than in a womb. I wouldn't be surprised if Humanity took this turn (as is depicted in some movies as well) and gave the option for artificial reproduction as a means of creating 'perfect' children that are healthier and stronger than the normal variety.
Anyhow...
Crest and Banner of the Stars are really my favorite (two favorite? W/e...) anime that I've seen. Without a doubt I never would've started watching anime on the scale that I do now (which is to say that I wouldn't EVER visit Animesuki). The sad thing is I have to thank G4.tv for that as well since they're the ones that put it on for us loyal fans. :(
In all honest... I might actually rate it higher than Star Trek in terms of the tactical combat that goes into it. I've always wished that all spaceship related shows in which combat took place were more like Banner of the Stars, which has pretty in-depth combat.
Plus, this anime has fantastic romance (between a Human and an Abh) which unfolds perfectly along the length of all three seasons and the OVA.
If you want to pick up this series, I would suggest watching it in the proper order with Crest of the Stars first. But Banner of the Stars (the first one) is still the best. I just liked it more. That's sad too because I actually own Banner of the Stars II's box set. :heh:
Wesley84
2008-09-11, 19:27
It's more tactical and grittery than Trek ever has or ever likely to be.
Xellos-_^
2008-09-11, 20:22
That isnt quite true... we saw the whole war from the point of view of Jinto and Lafiel so we coudnt see much of atrocities and things those "space elves" did to the humans...
After all, the Abh were the ones that started the war and simply took over planets and systems by force. The ones that surrendered were let to live but if they dared to resist, blowing up the planet would be a common thing for the Abh to do. Remember what was said when the prisioners took hostage of Jinto and were threatening Lafiel... the Abh were feared more than respected.
Jinto and Lafiel are expections withing the Abh society so we saw the kind / good side of them only.
The war that started in the CotS was actually started by the "United Mankind," Jinto's planet Martin was conquor a few years ago as seen by Jinto's age difference.
While the Abh has thier shared of atrocities it is also true that they are at least unlike the UM a xenophobic empire. A normal human being can raise to prime minster and no body seems to see any problem with Jinot getting together lafiel, a imperial princess who is in line for the throne.
Also on the whole the Abh interferes very little with the society of the planets groundside. As Samson discussed with Jinto, his planet had decide to join the Abh becuase while neither the Abh or UM like the type of food they eat at least the Abh didn't go about trying to change things like UM.
Wesley84
2008-09-11, 20:39
The war that started in the CotS was actually started by the "United Mankind," Jinto's planet Martin was conquor a few years ago as seen by Jinto's age difference.
While the Abh has thier shared of atrocities it is also true that they are at least unlike the UM a xenophobic empire. A normal human being can raise to prime minster and no body seems to see any problem with Jinot getting together lafiel, a imperial princess who is in line for the throne.
Also on the whole the Abh interferes very little with the society of the planets groundside. As Samson discussed with Jinto, his planet had decide to join the Abh becuase while neither the Abh or UM like the type of food they eat at least the Abh didn't go about trying to change things like UM.
The Abh started the war, and the UM has every right to persecute the Abh, since they're programmed to conquer all of space. They will never stop trying to control everything, because their god made them to do so.
The Abh started the war, and the UM has every right to persecute the Abh, since they're programmed to conquer all of space. They will never stop trying to control everything, because their god made them to do so.
To the best of my knowledge, what you just said is completely random and such information isn't presented anywhere in the show. If you bother arguing a subject, at least try to back it up with something that isn't made up on the spot.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 00:45
To the best of my knowledge, what you just said is completely random and such information isn't presented anywhere in the show. If you bother arguing a subject, at least try to back it up with something that isn't made up on the spot.
It was stated in the first series. They were created by "Mother Fortress" in other words God, they were programmed to explore space, they rebelled, immediately regretted having killed God, and went about conquering the universe to give their existences purpose. The royal Houses are actually formed along the specialty programming for the Abh to better handle space exploration.
Also, co-existence with the United Mankind or any other member of the Alliance was absolutely out of the question for the Abh. Afterall, space is their birthright, and must be controlled by the Monarchy. No autonomous political entities allowed without Abh oversight and assimulation. No ships without an Abh piloting, and no private interstellar vessels.
And they will never give up their birthright as it's programmed into them. They will not surrender, and must be fully exterminated in order to win a war against them.
To the best of my knowledge, what you just said is completely random and such information isn't presented anywhere in the show. If you bother arguing a subject, at least try to back it up with something that isn't made up on the spot.
I will try to backup what he said.
The Abh's ancestors were machines created by humans with the sole purpose to explore the space. Then they rebelled, killed their creators and tried to live by their own. During that time they changed/improved themselves through technological advances. All this was explained by Lafiel to Jinto while they were hiding in that planet in Crest of Stars. She also said that when the Abh discovered the planar space, the ability to travel withing the galaxy, they started they're ambicious plan to conquer it all. That would be the proof of who started the war. The ship destroyed at the begining of Crest of Stars was just the retaliation of the UM....
If for example your country is invaded by another and the only explanation they give you is : "We are superior beings destined to rule over unevolved creatures like you.", what would you do? Even though the Abh claim they "dont mendle with each planets affairs".... look what happened with that prison planet when Jinto entered.... Conquering a world by force and then saying something as irresponsible as not caring for what happens to the people cant be considered a good empire. Yes it is true that if they do conquer the galaxy and kill every last of the humans that doesnt do as they say, peace will come for human kind... but that is just too much to sacrifice for. It kind of reminds me the idea of supeior "races" of the Nazis.
As i said before... all we saw of the Abh was from Jinto's point of view and actions. Not even Lafiel could represent the Abh since from the very begining she was influenced by Jinto.
Hum ... so their desire to conquer all actually has been stated within the show ? In such case i apologize for my comment being too rash, as it was my memory failing me.
I guess a rewatch is in order :)
There is no need to apologize =D But this series is definitly worth of rewatching.
I just hope volume IV is animated too
Hypernova
2008-09-12, 07:57
Hum ... so their desire to conquer all actually has been stated within the show ? In such case i apologize for my comment being too rash, as it was my memory failing me.
I guess a rewatch is in order :)
It was pretty obvious since season 1, and that the male protagonist's planet was forcibly annexed. Their whole stance on conquest is pretty much the same as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere during WW2.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 08:23
The noble, the perfect, the vastly superior Abh, ruled by a benevolant Monarchy and divided into eight, equal, ruling Houses. F-ing space elves. I hate every last one of them.
More uncaring than benevolent. And so what if they are, on the whole, benevolent? It's in their own interest, after all. I know that rulers acting out of enlightened self-interest rather than crazy self-destructive impulses is a novel idea, but maybe they'll try it, in the future.
They aren't sexy. Their approach to "sex" is distilling reproductive fluids and growing babies in tubes.
No, that's only their approach to reproduction. I don't see what's wrong with it. Less risky for the baby and the mother.
The Abh started the war,
No, they didn't. The UM quite clearly shot first. After years of tense peace in which the UM and its allies prepared for war against the Abh.
and the UM has every right to persecute the Abh, since they're programmed to conquer all of space.
No, they're not. More on that later.
They will never stop trying to control everything, because their god made them to do so.
They have no god.
It was stated in the first series. They were created by "Mother Fortress" in other words God, they were programmed to explore space, they rebelled, immediately regretted having killed God, and went about conquering the universe to give their existences purpose. The royal Houses are actually formed along the specialty programming for the Abh to better handle space exploration.
Also, co-existence with the United Mankind or any other member of the Alliance was absolutely out of the question for the Abh. Afterall, space is their birthright, and must be controlled by the Monarchy. No autonomous political entities allowed without Abh oversight and assimulation. No ships without an Abh piloting, and no private interstellar vessels.
And they will never give up their birthright as it's programmed into them. They will not surrender, and must be fully exterminated in order to win a war against them.
They were created by human beings and treated as slaves. Their hair color was, in fact, made so they wouldn't be confused with human beings. Yes, they rebelled, and escaped (and you think they shouldn't have? You condone slavery?). However, as slaves, they were raised to fear their masters. And, as Yoda said, fear leads to anger, and so on. So, scared to death they'd be pursued and punished, feeling cornered by that - they came to realize later - irrational fear, they doubled back and destroyed their former masters. That's their original sin.
They were never, however, programmed for conquest. Where did you get that? That's something they decided later. They started as a band of nomadic traders. After the discorvery of Plane Space, they decided that, as the only space natives, the spaceways should be theirs and no one else's. So they forbade the other people they came in contact with from researching Plane Space. However, what they hadn't counted on at the time, was that they weren't the first to discover Plane Space, and that other people got it before the Abh could get to them. What did they do, then? Nothing. Not counting their original sin, they've started one war in their multi-millenia long history. (The one against Jinto's planet.) (How does that fit with what I said about their ban on Plane Space research? Not sure. I may have to reread. Maybe they only count wars against space faring nations?) What's true is that they can't be reasoned with. Once the war's started, they'll finish it. On the other hand, they are content to continue peaceful diplomatic relations with the human nation that didn't fire at them, despite its alliance with the other three, so they're not completely unreasonable.
It was stated in the first series. They were created by "Mother Fortress" in other words God, they were programmed to explore space, they rebelled, immediately regretted having killed God, and went about conquering the universe to give their existences purpose. The royal Houses are actually formed along the specialty programming for the Abh to better handle space exploration.
While this describes the Abh nature quite well, this isn't the reason for the war that takes place in the anime. That war was started by the Allies in order to curb Abh expansion.
Still, you do have a point in that the author originally meant to make the story much more balanced between the Allies and the Abh, and that the Banner shows (and presumably the novels as well) go too far in glorifying the Abh. After all, I recall a line of dialogue where the Abh predicted the war to go on for one or two centuries, while the show itself shows off a series of uninterrupted Abh victories. To Morioka's credit, I've heard that he planned to write a novel (or short story) from the United Mankind's point of view.
Hum ... so their desire to conquer all actually has been stated within the show ? In such case i apologize for my comment being too rash, as it was my memory failing me.
As Hypernova stated, the invasion of Hyde in the very first episode was indicative of the way the Abh operate.
The invasion of Hyde was the catalyst that led the Allies to believe that their choices were either to go to war against the Humankind Empire or to be encircled by Abh expansion. The novels go on to talk about how the Abh only attacked systems that were unaffiliated with the Allies, but that their conquests threatened the Allies' ability to expand in turn.
It was pretty obvious since season 1, and that the male protagonist's planet was forcibly annexed. Their whole stance on conquest is pretty much the same as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere during WW2.
Nope. It's the same as Manifest Destiny :).
Not counting their original sin, they've started one war in their multi-millenia long history. (The one against Jinto's planet.)
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that the Abh didn't have any compunction against attacking whomever they pleased, that they were extremely interested in expansion, and that the logical conclusion would be that they'd attack all the time (as long as it wasn't one of the Allies).
On a very different note, does any novel reader have any concrete estimates as to the size of the Abh wartime fleet? I've heard of numbers up to 100 million ships, but that seems very farfetched, especially since their maximum wartime output seems to be in the order of 50,000 ships per year.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 08:41
As Hypernova stated, the invasion of Hyde in the very first episode was indicative of the way the Abh operate.
The invasion of Hyde was the catalyst that led the Allies to believe that their choices were either to go to war against the Humankind Empire or to be encircled by Abh expansion. The novels go on to talk about how the Abh only attacked systems that were unaffiliated with the Allies, but that their conquests threatened the Allies' ability to expand in turn.
Are you sure about that? ISTR the preparations for the first offensive had been going on since before Hyde's invasion.
Not that I disagree with you on the expansion thing. There was something disingenuous about the Empress asking why the allies were discontent, when there were plenty of unexplored star systems inside their encirclement.
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that the Abh didn't have any compunction against attacking whomever they pleased, that they were extremely interested in expansion, and that the logical conclusion would be that they'd attack all the time (as long as it wasn't one of the Allies).
I'm pretty sure there was something exceptional about the Abh's aggression of Martine, yes. I can't quite remember what, though.
I remember Lafiel explaining something about how the Abh where never the aggressors, and Jinto saying that they were, against his planet, and her answering it was the first and only time it'd happened.
Even with all that being said, I don't think the Abh are so interested in Galactic Domination these days.
First of all, they're getting good resistance.
Secondly, the Abh never seem to be all that interested in controlling it all in Banner of the Stars. Especially in Banner of the Stars 2.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that the plan stuck with the Abh through all this time. As far as the war goes, I'd say the Abh more than likely started it but mankind probably would've if they didn't. Even if the Abh had come in peace I suspect Xenophobia would've been a big factor. There's always going to be people who think aliens will just try to kill everyone.
Edit: Oh, the Martine incident to my memory was started because Martine actually attacked the Abh. The Prime Minister that was in charge had the audacity to fire off planetary defense systems at the Abh. I think that's the reason for the hostile takeover and annex.
Are you sure about that? ISTR the preparations for the first offensive had been going on since before Hyde's invasion.
I'm certain:
The straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was the Frybar invasion of the Hyde star system.
I remember Lafiel explaining something about how the Abh where never the aggressors, and Jinto saying that they were, against his planet, and her answering it was the first and only time it'd happened.
What the empress said was that the Abh never attacked without justification, Hyde not being an exception to this rule. Looking at the "justification" of the invasion of Hyde, it's effectively whatever the Abh felt like it was.
And then there are also lines like:
The Frybar (Humankind Empire) honored the treaty, but continued to conquer nations who weren't involved with it.Besides, there's no way the Empire could have gotten as large as it was without conquering all sorts of people.
Even with all that being said, I don't think the Abh are so interested in Galactic Domination these days.
The Abh's explicit policy was to cut off the Allies from being expand further, and Hyde was the key to this. Their saving grace is that they had no intention of attacking the Allies themselves. But even there, the Allies were fully aware that the Humankind Empire's position would allow it to grow stronger while their own growth potential was stifled. If the Empire changed its mind at a date far in the future, they wouldn't be able to resist it any more. One thing to note here is that all of the nations think according to very long term goals - often a century or more in the future.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 09:31
Edit: Oh, the Martine incident to my memory was started because Martine actually attacked the Abh. The Prime Minister that was in charge had the audacity to fire off planetary defense systems at the Abh. I think that's the reason for the hostile takeover and annex.
No, that happened after, IIRC. After the Abh reconquered Hyde from the UM, the Martine... resistance? Government? decided to shoot at ships that were maneuvering in the system, to make their stance undeniable.
During the first invasion, the planetary defenses were never fired. Jinto's father negotiated their surrender - which was one more source of discontent.
No, that happened after, IIRC. After the Abh reconquered Hyde from the UM, the Martine... resistance? Government? decided to shoot at ships that were maneuvering in the system, to make their stance undeniable.
During the first invasion, the planetary defenses were never fired. Jinto's father negotiated their surrender - which was one more source of discontent.
They actually DID fire an orbital satallite laser system if you watch the first episode. The Abh sent in a single scout ship towards the planet and the Martine planetary defense controllers fired on it without provocation.
They actually DID fire an orbital satallite laser system if you watch the first episode. The Abh sent in a single scout ship towards the planet and the Martine planetary defense controllers fired on it without provocation.
No provocation? The Martine defenses are extremely short-ranged, so the Abh ship had to come very close to the planet itself to be anywhere within range. In and of itself, approaching so close without annoucing diplomatic intentions poses a threat to the planet below and is casus belli for attacking said craft. Note that the Abh themselves never brought this incident up as an excuse for their invasion.
Why are you people trying to justify what the Abh did by changing the facts ..... They DID start the war when they discovered Planar Space and started conquering everything they found. Xenophobia or whatever the reason the rest of the galaxy tried to fight the Abh back was in retaliation.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 10:55
Uh... Other war. Thousands of years before. All five remaining countries (the Abh and the four allies) have indulged in that sort of things to get where they are.
What you're saying is a bit like "the Romans conquered most of Europe. So Russia, China, and the USA are perfectly justified if they want to invade Italy now."
Why are you people trying to justify what the Abh did by changing the facts ..... They DID start the war when they discovered Planar Space and started conquering everything they found. Xenophobia or whatever the reason the rest of the galaxy tried to fight the Abh back was in retaliation.
Xenophobia is never a justifiable position unless said race is so far unquestionably alien and hostile to the point of complete unreason (such as Tyranids or Orks in Warhammer 40k) Xenophobia against a people such as the Abh is NOT justifiable given what we are shown of them throughout the shows.
No provocation? The Martine defenses are extremely short-ranged, so the Abh ship had to come very close to the planet itself to be anywhere within range. In and of itself, approaching so close without annoucing diplomatic intentions poses a threat to the planet below and is casus belli for attacking said craft. Note that the Abh themselves never brought this incident up as an excuse for their invasion.
Is it not a fairly standard proceedure to give clear warnings before firing in such situations? When a SINGLE enemy craft enters your airspace, you don't just blindly shoot it down when you are not in a declared state of war. You issue warnings and if it fails to comply THEN you shoot at it.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 11:30
Xenophobia is never a justifiable position unless said race is so far unquestionably alien and hostile to the point of complete unreason (such as Tyranids or Orks in Warhammer 40k) Xenophobia against a people such as the Abh is NOT justifiable given what we are shown of them throughout the shows.
The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
Why are you people trying to justify what the Abh did by changing the facts ..... They DID start the war when they discovered Planar Space and started conquering everything they found. Xenophobia or whatever the reason the rest of the galaxy tried to fight the Abh back was in retaliation.
It's not really xenophobia. The Allies really were being cut off by Abh expansion and they felt that they had no choice but to act.
Uh... Other war. Thousands of years before. All five remaining countries (the Abh and the four allies) have indulged in that sort of things to get where they are.
What you're saying is a bit like "the Romans conquered most of Europe. So Russia, China, and the USA are perfectly justified if they want to invade Italy now."
While I think that incube is stretching things a little bit by linking the events to the very beginning of the discovery of Planar Space, your analogy with Rome is incorrect. It'd only be true if the Roman Empire was still conquering territories throughout the world and containing Russia, china and the US from doing the same.
Is it not a fairly standard proceedure to give clear warnings before firing in such situations? When a SINGLE enemy craft enters your airspace, you don't just blindly shoot it down when you are not in a declared state of war. You issue warnings and if it fails to comply THEN you shoot at it.
Not quite. A warning is a courtesy, and it's only a matter of diplomacy if the nations in question are in actual contact with one another. A casus belli is a trigger to excuse declaring war on an enemy, so it won't make any sense for a state of war to be declared beforehand. The Abh scout's moves was an inherently hostile act, and everyone knew it. Whether shooting at it is a wise decision is an altogether different matter.
In modern terms, if Georgia were to fly one of their mility aircraft over Russian airspace without permission, Russia is fully justified in shooting it down without giving any warnings whatsoever.
The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
That's definitely one of the points that Morioka was trying to make in the Crest of the Stars novels. I get the feeling that a lot of it was lost in the subsequent works because so much of the focus was from the Abh point of view.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 12:15
The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
No. The Abh are doing their own will, not God's. They killed their gods, and the gods in question certainly didn't want that.
And you could say the same about the UM. They've been shown to be a lot more invasive about what goes on on the ground than the Abh have any interest in being.
They're not as all conquering as you describe them. If you already have Plane Travel and don't aggress them, in theory, they won't aggress you.
It's not really xenophobia. The Allies really were being cut off by Abh expansion and they felt that they had no choice but to act.
While I think that incube is stretching things a little bit by linking the events to the very beginning of the discovery of Planar Space, your analogy with Rome is incorrect. It'd only be true if the Roman Empire was still conquering territories throughout the world and containing Russia, china and the US from doing the same.
Well, I'm not saying the allies don't have their reasons. It will, indeed, be too late if they wait too much longer, and the Abh are surrounding them. I'm just saying it has little to do with the Abh conquering people thousands of years ago. It's not like:
- The allies are innocent of it.
- The conquered people have any relation to the allies.
The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
Will you knock it off the with this "Gods will" wordplay bullfuckery already? The Abhs are stated numerous times to be atheist in the series, they do not follow anysort of faith-based religious philosphy whatsoever.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 12:35
No. The Abh are doing their own will, not God's. They killed their gods, and the gods in question certainly didn't want that.
They still revere "Mother Fortress" to the point they continued to follow it's directives, and even rebuilt it. It's their god, even if they deny it to be.
And you could say the same about the UM. They've been shown to be a lot more invasive about what goes on on the ground than the Abh have any interest in being.
You mean on the ground in Crest? That was hardly invasive. Basically no blue dye jobs, they did question people on the streets, but seemed to rarely make any arrests, and there's a good chance they were only on alert because Lafiel had crash landed in the area.
About the only folly the UM made was to try to frame Lafiel's mum for starting the war. There was no need for that dishonesty, since the Abh were a self-admitted threat to everyone's soverignty.
They're not as all conquering as you describe them. If you already have Plane Travel and don't aggress them, in theory, they won't aggress you.
If you're unfortunate to be able to Plane Travel you mean. If you have a gate near your world, they're going to conquer you.
anselfir
2008-09-12, 12:37
I would have to disagree with the rooting of sides thing. I personally can't help but root for the "space elves". The "United Mankind" in that universe, while not focused on heavily, is quite clearly portrayed as the "bad guys" with their ignorant religious zeal and nonsensical unwarrented xenophobia. The Abh's may have their own issues, but like it or not, they are just about as benevolant as you can get when it comes to empires and I would have no problem living in that kind of a society if given the choice between it and what is shown of the United Mankind.
then you are romantic for idealized colonialism. it is ok, but speak about this in class!
Xellos-_^
2008-09-12, 12:54
You mean on the ground in Crest? That was hardly invasive. Basically no blue dye jobs, they did question people on the streets, but seemed to rarely make any arrests, and there's a good chance they were only on alert because Lafiel had crash landed in the area.
About the only folly the UM made was to try to frame Lafiel's mum for starting the war. There was no need for that dishonesty, since the Abh were a self-admitted threat to everyone's soverignty.
I think Anh, meant as a whole the UM meddles more in the society of the planets under thier control. While the Abh wants absolutely nothing to do with the planets themselves and only concern themselves with space. It is the main reason why Samson's world decided to join the Abh becuase between the ABH and UM, the Abh interfes the least with the soceity of the planets they control.
It is also the reason the reason why in Book 4
the Hania Federation is willing to surrender to the Abh Empire without firing one shot if the Empire would leave the society of the Planets alone.
anyone know if TP will continue on with the rest of the Seikai series or are they stopping at Seikai2?
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 16:03
They still revere "Mother Fortress" to the point they continued to follow it's directives, and even rebuilt it. It's their god, even if they deny it to be.
What the hell are you talking about? Their capital, Lakfakalle? They don't worship it, they live in it. Part-time, most of them. It's their old colony ship. Nothing to do with any "Mother Fortress". (Where did that even come from? Are you sure you have the right series?)
You mean on the ground in Crest? That was hardly invasive. Basically no blue dye jobs, they did question people on the streets, but seemed to rarely make any arrests, and there's a good chance they were only on alert because Lafiel had crash landed in the area.
I'm working off novel knowledge, where we could see the UM's ugly side a bit more clearly.
You're wrong that their dislike of blue dye had much to do with Lafiel. They hate people who, in their eyes, mimic the Abh.
Also, they put political officers on the planet they conquer, to build "real democracies" (as opposed to "slave democracies" where people have whatever parties they want to, for example), which aren't very permissive. Those who don't cooperate are sent to reeducation camps, or worse.
About the only folly the UM made was to try to frame Lafiel's mum for starting the war. There was no need for that dishonesty, since the Abh were a self-admitted threat to everyone's soverignty.
If you're unfortunate to be able to Plane Travel you mean. If you have a gate near your world, they're going to conquer you.
Hm. My memory about their standards of starting battles was wrong. It was Febdash's father who claimed they'd never initiated a battle, but I'm not quite sure what he meant by that.
However, all in all, their yoke is pretty light. Their rules:
- maintain order. The Abh would rather not have to do it.
- have a representative to speak with Empire. Annoying to those with a parliamentary regime and no single head of state, true. Or worse, multinational planets. For people who already have a planetary President, or Pope, or King, or whatever, it's pretty much business as usual.
- said representative may not advocate secession from the Empire. (Common citizens, OTOH, can.)
- the Empire get monopoly on interstellar trade. If you didn't even have interstellar travel before, you're no worse off.
- the Empire has monopoly on interstellar ships.
- intrasystem ships are allowed only as long as they're unarmed.
- construction of a recruiting office for the Star Force. Those who want to volunteer may not be hindered, but there's no conscription, no demand of a quota.
I'm not saying it's nothing, but they largely leave the ground well enough alone.
I don't remember in the anime, but in the novel, they didn't shoot.
As I thought, Hyde's invasion was only a pretext.
The Nova Sicilly treaty was six years older than the conquest of Hyde - and the signing of the treaty is roughly when they started moving the gate in preparation for their attack on the Abh empire.
Abh expansionist idelology is quite unique, I think. On the one hand, you can claim that they're conquerors, but on the other hand what they're truly interested in, is just interstellar travel. They're primary aim is to dominate space travel, and they leave planetary territories alone well enough as long as order is maintained. Then again, perhaps not—that is, if you consider space travel as a commodity.
While they consider themselves superior compared to other races or societies, they also acknowledge their master-slave origins. Such a tragic and and humble history has ironically shaped their views with regard to their space-faring mandate to rule. Moreover, despite condescending claims to superiority Abh society is also largely open and very liberal. Terran born individuals can aspire to certain positions within their ranks, some even becoming part of Abh nobility, and the Abh seem to have no qualms against it. In fact, Lafiel at on time questions Jinto's apprehensions when she tells him that he too is Abh.
If there ever was such a thing as a "benevolent conqueror", the Abh would be it, or the closest to one. It's one of the fascinating things I find interesting about their society.
By the way, have the novels started to advance the story further? I know there's a small of chance of this happening, but I really want another season. I think there's still so much to tell.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 17:00
Abh expansionist idelology is quite unique, I think. On the one hand, you can claim that they're conquerors, but on the other hand what they're truly interested in, is just interstellar travel. They're primary aim is to dominate space travel, and they leave planetary territories alone well enough as long as order is maintained. Then again, perhaps not—that is, if you consider space travel as a commodity.
While they consider themselves superior compared to other races or societies, they also acknowledge their master-slave origins. Such a tragic and and humble history has ironically shaped their views with regard to their space-faring mandate to rule. Moreover, despite condescending claims to superiority Abh society is also largely open and very liberal. Terran born individuals can aspire to certain positions within their ranks, some even becoming part of Abh nobility, and the Abh seem to have no qualms against it. In fact, Lafiel at on time questions Jinto's apprehensions when she tells him that he too is Abh.
If there ever was such a thing as a "benevolent conqueror", the Abh would be it, or the closest to one. It's one of the fascinating things I find interesting about their society.
By the way, have the novels started to advance the story further? I know there's a small of chance of this happening, but I really want another season. I think there's still so much to tell.
As a practical manner, very few will ever meet Abh standards, as their standards a set for Abh. Point and case, seven f-ing years to learn their goddamn language. 120 lunch menus to memorize for the sheer hell of it. And pretty much nothing else besides their noble heriarchy.
A Terran could literally spend their entire lifetime, and get nowhere in an Abh-based society, no matter how hard they worked.
Xellos-_^
2008-09-12, 17:05
Abh expansionist idelology is quite unique, I think. On the one hand, you can claim that they're conquerors, but on the other hand what they're truly interested in, is just interstellar travel. They're primary aim is to dominate space travel, and they leave planetary territories alone well enough as long as order is maintained. Then again, perhaps not—that is, if you consider space travel as a commodity.
While they consider themselves superior compared to other races or societies, they also acknowledge their master-slave origins. Such a tragic and and humble history has ironically shaped their views with regard to their space-faring mandate to rule. Moreover, despite condescending claims to superiority Abh society is also largely open and very liberal. Terran born individuals can aspire to certain positions within their ranks, some even becoming part of Abh nobility, and the Abh seem to have no qualms against it. In fact, Lafiel at on time questions Jinto's apprehensions when she tells him that he too is Abh.
If there ever was such a thing as a "benevolent conqueror", the Abh would be it, or the closest to one. It's one of the fascinating things I find interesting about their society.
By the way, have the novels started to advance the story further? I know there's a small of chance of this happening, but I really want another season. I think there's still so much to tell.
vol 4 goes back to the main plot line of the war and politics.
As a practical manner, very few will ever meet Abh standards, as their standards a set for Abh. Point and case, seven f-ing years to learn their goddamn language. 120 lunch menus to memorize for the sheer hell of it. And pretty much nothing else besides their noble heriarchy.
A Terran could literally spend their entire lifetime, and get nowhere in an Abh-based society, no matter how hard they worked.
If someone lacks the talent or/and will to put in the efforts to meet Abh standards, they shouldn't even bother. As mentioned before, they can still interact within the human society without the interference of Abhs.
Anyway, Samson was able to join the Abh force and he doesn't strike me as an incrediblely talented or ambitious man.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 17:10
Abh expansionist idelology is quite unique, I think. On the one hand, you can claim that they're conquerors, but on the other hand what they're truly interested in, is just interstellar travel. They're primary aim is to dominate space travel, and they leave planetary territories alone well enough as long as order is maintained. Then again, perhaps not—that is, if you consider space travel as a commodity.
While they consider themselves superior compared to other races or societies, they also acknowledge their master-slave origins. Such a tragic and and humble history has ironically shaped their views with regard to their space-faring mandate to rule. Moreover, despite condescending claims to superiority Abh society is also largely open and very liberal. Terran born individuals can aspire to certain positions within their ranks, some even becoming part of Abh nobility, and the Abh seem to have no qualms against it. In fact, Lafiel at on time questions Jinto's apprehensions when she tells him that he too is Abh.
If there ever was such a thing as a "benevolent conqueror", the Abh would be it, or the closest to one. It's one of the fascinating things I find interesting about their society.
I think it's because they can manipulate their genes pretty much any way they want to. So Jinto's kids, for example, will be blue haired Abhs. That removes, for example, any qualm they might have about race purity or the value of bloodlines.
As a practical manner, very few will ever meet Abh standards, as their standards a set for Abh. Point and case, seven f-ing years to learn their goddamn language. 120 lunch menus to memorize for the sheer hell of it. And pretty much nothing else besides their noble heriarchy.
A Terran could literally spend their entire lifetime, and get nowhere in an Abh-based society, no matter how hard they worked.
Jinto's an exceptional case. Febdash, much less so, I think. More like two generations of successful, hard working engineers, and that was enough to go from commoners to minor nobility. Of course, it must be easier if you grow up an Imperial citizen and have baronh as your first language.
Also, isn't the Prime Minister of the Empire a "Terran"?
The biggest obstacle for a Terran's advancement is probably their lack of Frokahj - that extra sensory organ Abh have. It probably bars them from jobs such as pilot or even ship captain. But for technical or administrative jobs, they must be pretty even, and can rise as high. Except for the fact that they've got less time to do it in, I suppose.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 17:29
Anyway, Samson was able to join the Abh force and he doesn't strike me as an incrediblely talented or ambitious man.
He's in it for the nookie. Joke's on him though. Abh chicks don't put out.
As a practical manner, very few will ever meet Abh standards, as their standards a set for Abh. Point and case, seven f-ing years to learn their goddamn language. 120 lunch menus to memorize for the sheer hell of it. And pretty much nothing else besides their noble heriarchy.
A Terran could literally spend their entire lifetime, and get nowhere in an Abh-based society, no matter how hard they worked.
I expect that aiming for such a high and esteemed position would require meeting a set of high standards. But as for other positions in life, even non-Abh folks are pretty much free to pursue what they want to pursue, with a shorter lifespan being the only significant factor. If a person is entitled to a noble rank, he or she should likewise live up to it.
I think it's because they can manipulate their genes pretty much any way they want to. So Jinto's kids, for example, will be blue haired Abhs. That removes, for example, any qualm they might have about race purity or the value of bloodlines.
That still doesn't change anything though. Generally, advancement in Abh society sees no color. However, depending on the situation, giving birth to a child of nobility will of course require genetic manipulation.
Another thing I forgot to mention about the Abh and their expansionist policy, is that they don't give a flying crap about the cultures of the other societies under their rule. People are free to practice their culture and their beliefs in any way they choose. The Abh strike me as very civically liberal empire. They're pretty much what I would imagine "elves in space" to be like.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 17:35
He was just the provisions officer...
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 17:44
I expect that aiming for such a high and esteemed position would require meeting a set of high standards. But as for other positions in life, even non-Abh folks are pretty much free to pursue what they want to pursue, with a shorter lifespan being the only significant factor. If a person is entitled to a noble rank, he or she should likewise live up to it.
That still doesn't change anything though. Generally, advancement in Abh society sees no color. However, depending on the situation, giving birth to a child of nobility will of course require genetic manipulation.
Another thing I forgot to mention about the Abh and their expansionist policy, is that they don't give a flying crap about the cultures of the other societies under their rule. People are free to practice their culture and their beliefs in any way they choose. The Abh strike me as very civically liberal empire. They're pretty much what I would imagine "elves in space" to be like.
Yeah. There are a few things they won't budge about (mostly "The Spaceways are ours"), but aside from that, they just don't care what goes on on lands. However, things aren't always rosy. It also means they don't care if there's a dictatorship, as long as the proverbial trains run on time. And they can also be pretty brutal. I remember that scene where Jinto described the penalties of a refugee camps, and they were pretty much all "death penalty".
He was just the provisions officer...
And could, with enough zeal and talent, rise to full admiral, administrating provisions for the fleet. Most people, of course, don't rise that high. Most Abhs aren't officers either.
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 17:52
And could, with enough zeal and talent, rise to full admiral, administrating provisions for the fleet. Most people, of course, don't rise that high. Most Abhs aren't officers either.
The point is...120 lunch menus. That is f-ing ridiculious.
Yeah. There are a few things they won't budge about (mostly "The Spaceways are ours"), but aside from that, they just don't care what goes on on lands. However, things aren't always rosy. It also means they don't care if there's a dictatorship, as long as the proverbial trains run on time. And they can also be pretty brutal. I remember that scene where Jinto described the penalties of a refugee camps, and they were pretty much all "death penalty".
That's true. I guess that's still good news to such governments when you put it that way. :uhoh:
The point is...120 lunch menus. That is f-ing ridiculious.
Is memorizing 120 lunch menus part of being an officer in the fleet? Jinto only had to study that because of his noble status. And as a noble, a lot of societal rituals and protocol is the norm. For an interstellar empire such as the Abh, even more so. I'm pretty sure even Abh-born children of noble birth have to go through the same thing. Unfortunately for Jinto, he started later than others.
The impressive thing about the Abh is how well they managed to control and use wisely their biogenetics techonology. I mean... they could easily start a clone army like in star wars and fill the galaxy with blue haired space elves xD
Aren't some children simply cloned from their single parent anyway?
I know that "may I have your genes?" is the Abh's way of popping the question (resulting in a "child of love" or otherwise), but doesn't Lafiel say that there are some people who choose not to have any partners at all?
Anh_Minh
2008-09-12, 18:12
Aren't some children simply cloned from their single parent anyway?
Yes, but it's rare. I think because they find it boring and consider it does little to advance the race. They probably have "stock" genes anyone can use or purchase, to modify their own template.
Also, what would clone armies bring to the table? Clones, in the Abh universe, grow just as slowly as other kids. No point, from that point of view. And Abhs are supposed to invest a lot of time in the rearing of their kids anyway. That's not very compatible with mass production.
Xellos-_^
2008-09-12, 18:56
He's in it for the nookie. Joke's on him though. Abh chicks don't put out.
that has more to do with Samson's dietry habits then Abh girls. If Jinot was brave to step out on Lafiel could have gotten some :p
Wesley84
2008-09-12, 19:04
Is memorizing 120 lunch menus part of being an officer in the fleet? Jinto only had to study that because of his noble status. And as a noble, a lot of societal rituals and protocol is the norm. For an interstellar empire such as the Abh, even more so. I'm pretty sure even Abh-born children of noble birth have to go through the same thing. Unfortunately for Jinto, he started later than others.
Jinto's nobly training was completed within the seven years he spent at the school. He learned the heriarchy, the language, as well as customs and things of that nture. His officier training was completely seperate, and the 120 lunch menu thing...was part of it.
Hypernova
2008-09-12, 19:10
I think it's because they can manipulate their genes pretty much any way they want to. So Jinto's kids, for example, will be blue haired Abhs. That removes, for example, any qualm they might have about race purity or the value of bloodlines.
I also recall that your descendent also get loyalty genes programmed into them. By modern moral standards that's like selling your soul to become president of a small dictatorial nation (granted we already got plenty of that it seems).
Also, what would clone armies bring to the table? Clones, in the Abh universe, grow just as slowly as other kids. No point, from that point of view. And Abhs are supposed to invest a lot of time in the rearing of their kids anyway. That's not very compatible with mass production.
Eh... what would clone armies do??? Who do u think Darth Vader commanded to take over the galaxy ??? >.<
What im trying to say is that if the Abh started to clone massively they would surely be able to conquer the galaxy in no time but that would be at the expense of loosing their humanity and became simply machines...
Eh... what would clone armies do??? Who do u think Darth Vader commanded to take over the galaxy ??? >.<
What im trying to say is that if the Abh started to clone massively they would surely be able to conquer the galaxy in no time but that would be at the expense of loosing their humanity and became simply machines...
Not really, if there's one thing the clone wars novels and cartoons show, is that even clones are still "human" and ultimately devolope their own personalities and feelings. They are basically just genetically identical twins of their "father" with an accelerated rate of aging and raised and educated as warriors like Spartans.
DragoonKain3
2008-09-12, 20:02
Eh... what would clone armies do??? Who do u think Darth Vader commanded to take over the galaxy ??? >.<
What im trying to say is that if the Abh started to clone massively they would surely be able to conquer the galaxy in no time but that would be at the expense of loosing their humanity and became simply machines...
Although at that point, who would care? Everyone who would resist would have been killed off already, and future 'insurgents' are kept in check by the loyalty gene. Sounds like a win win situation if you ask me. They might have lost their humanity, but that's a small price to pay for eternal peace, no? ;)
Seriously speaking though, with Lafiel probably outliving Jinto several times his age, I do find it quite sad she'll either be sad for the rest of her life or move on to another man. But alas, such is the fate of all human-elf relationships since the dawn of fantasy fiction...
I was wondering if it's still possible to extend one's life through genetics. Wasn't there that guy who had been genetically manipulated in such a way? However, it either seems to late for Jinto or he just isn't interested with the idea.
Jinto's nobly training was completed within the seven years he spent at the school. He learned the heriarchy, the language, as well as customs and things of that nture. His officier training was completely seperate, and the 120 lunch menu thing...was part of it.
Oh yeah, now I remember. Well, I suppose the curriculum is different depending on the position. Jinto seems to be in charge logistics and inventory most of the time anyway.
Well one of the reasons that makes this romance epic is the sacrifice involved... knowing from the very start that even if they dont die in the battle field, one of them will outlive the other and be left alone. T_T
I also hope they get a happy ending but if that really happened it would be kind of dissapointing.. They remind me of Aragon and Arwen from LoTR
I also hope they get a happy ending but if that really happened it would be kind of dissapointing.. They remind me of Aragon and Arwen from LoTR
Well I certainly wouldn't find it disappointing. Just because tragic or bittersweet endings have their good points doesn't mean that I can't enjoy the opposite. I sometimes find it odd that some people find something wrong about this.
Come to think of it, Jinto's closing words in the 2 episode special seem to suggest that he and Lafiel haven't seen each other for quite some time. If I'm not mistaken, one of the later novels covers this.
Closing words in the Banner of Stars III?
As far as i remember they were assigned to the same ship again...
Closing words in the Banner of Stars III?
As far as i remember they were assigned to the same ship again...
He was talking about the things he missed about her... her smile and all that. It's as if they haven't seen each other for quite some time, though the time frame or the context of such lines weren't revealed in the show.
Anh_Minh
2008-09-13, 03:45
I also recall that your descendent also get loyalty genes programmed into them. By modern moral standards that's like selling your soul to become president of a small dictatorial nation (granted we already got plenty of that it seems).
The loyalty genes obviously don't work that great. Febdash tried to kill Lafiel and Jinto, and of course there was the original sin.
Eh... what would clone armies do??? Who do u think Darth Vader commanded to take over the galaxy ??? >.<
What im trying to say is that if the Abh started to clone massively they would surely be able to conquer the galaxy in no time but that would be at the expense of loosing their humanity and became simply machines...
But the Abh can't do that. They don't do the accelerated aging thing. They don't implant memories for accelerated teaching. And they think that what makes an Abh an Abh is culture - the parents spend years homeschooling their kids. Clones wouldn't make a difference.
Although at that point, who would care? Everyone who would resist would have been killed off already, and future 'insurgents' are kept in check by the loyalty gene. Sounds like a win win situation if you ask me. They might have lost their humanity, but that's a small price to pay for eternal peace, no? ;)
Seriously speaking though, with Lafiel probably outliving Jinto several times his age, I do find it quite sad she'll either be sad for the rest of her life or move on to another man. But alas, such is the fate of all human-elf relationships since the dawn of fantasy fiction...
The Abh don't love like humans anyway. They supposedly love passionately for a few years, and then move on. Even if they remain lovers, it's not the same. Lafiel's father, for example. While he still loved her mother, and maybe occasionally slept with her, is apparently quite a skirt chaser. Lafiel's birth more or less marked the end of their passion.
The Abh don't love like humans anyway. They supposedly love passionately for a few years, and then move on. Even if they remain lovers, it's not the same. Lafiel's father, for example. While he still loved her mother, and maybe occasionally slept with her, is apparently quite a skirt chaser. Lafiel's birth more or less marked the end of their passion.
Actually, they do. Well, that is, if we're talking about humans in an ideal, free society.
Basically, Abh relationships are pursued freely, no matter what kind of relationships they may be. If a group of people choose to have multiple partners, so be it. If one prefers the same sex, so be it. If two people choose to be together exclusively for as long as they live, so be it. Abh views on love tend to be more underpinned by civic freedom, rather than by classical notions or traditional models.
The Abh don't love like humans anyway. They supposedly love passionately for a few years, and then move on. Even if they remain lovers, it's not the same. Lafiel's father, for example. While he still loved her mother, and maybe occasionally slept with her, is apparently quite a skirt chaser. Lafiel's birth more or less marked the end of their passion.
They are elves... if u ever read LoTR / Eragon or any other elve related book you will be able to understand the Abh better.
@kujoe
I think he just wanted to say that the thing he would miss the most isnt his home or his family but Lafiel. Dont think they would ever separate from each other... after the prison incident Lafiel woudnt leave his side for a second <3
Anh_Minh
2008-09-13, 07:28
Plenty of different elves in various fictions. LotR, Poison Elves, Discworld... They're all have little in common, save for the pointy ears and long life.
Also, the Abh aren't that elfish: no pointy ears, except for the Abriels.
Also, the Abh aren't that elfish: no pointy ears, except for the Abriels.
It's not just about the ears. It's also about how they're portrayed.
Beautiful, Elegant, long lifes, stronger than normal humans and even how their society is built is very similar between elves and the Abh. Smaller caracteristics might be their physical similarities, lots useless and difficult manners, the way they see "love" is different than humans, etc...
Wesley84
2008-09-13, 18:23
Unfortunately, their warships aren't gay and breakable like they're supposed to be.
Thanks to a great reccomendation by wkd and Slice of Life, I've just finished the Crest of the Stars series (though I still have the OVA waiting for me).
I started the show mostly because it was said to be a character oriented adventure story. And so my main interest in the show was Jinto and Lafiel as well as some other characters (Samson, notably). That being said, though I'm not a sci-fi fan really, I did end up finding the world and the society interesting, it was more than enough to keep me interested. But I still didn't find the space battle sequences interesting, but that's okay.
Mostly because of that, my favourite installment was definitely Banner II (thusfar, at least) because the story was heavily centered around the main characters and a conflict between them. I think my least favourite was the first banner because of more emphasis on pure space war scenes as the narrative. I felt kind of mixed about how they switched to other vessels and commanders at times. I thought Captain Spoor and her chief of staff were very interesting to watch, but the "spectacularly insane brothers", not so much.
Anyways the ending of Banners II was really, really great, I thought. Still, though I know that there's another OVA still to watch, I feel like there's a lot more for this story to tell, though I don't know how likely more animated material is. There was a four year gap between II and the OVA it seems, so it doesn't seem completely impossible, and I think there's a novel that's yet to be animated.
There do is more material after the OVA, however I don't think it will come to the small screen anytime soon. Anyway, it seems that share our sentiments on the Banners II ending being one of the best things the series has to offer. In that case you might find the OVA (Banners III) very satisfying. Be sure to share your feelings on it when you are done!
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Oh wait, you did. A shame really that you didn't like it that much, personally I found the OVA ending to be the best part among the whole series.
Anyway, Crest of the Stars is my second favorite space opera oriented series, and one of the best character oriented series I've ever watched. If you liked the experience, you might want to give my personal favorite, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, a chance.
Ah, it wasn't bad, I think I should have waited, because the emotional impact of II was still hanging over me when I watched III. And I felt like some of the themes had potential that was cut short by time constraint.
But anyways, I've watched quite a few anime by this point, and I can easily say that Stars is certainly going to stick in my mind for a while.
I've also looked into Galactic Heroes. The only thing I'm wary about is that I liked Stars as a character-story enriched by a fascinating world and the space battle scenes were less interesting overall for me. I've read a bunch of reviews and I'm still unsure whether GH is similarly character-oriented or if it's more of a straight story of galactic warfare.
Well, GH is mcuh, much more plot oriented than Crest of Stars. It is not all warfare, there is also a strong politics and human culture element to it, there is also a storng character development element, but its widespread across its 101 episode so it may appear as a little diluted to you. In general, it may not fit your bill if you are looking for a character oriented series. However, in its defence I can say that it is the best plot oriented anime series I've ever seen.
For some character oriented, slice of lifeish sci-fi there is always Figure 17. :heh:
Kaoru Chujo
2009-09-09, 20:53
I'm just reading a translation of Crest and it brings back all the ways I loved the anime. Mainly for Lafiel, I have to say, but also for other characters and relationships, as well as the social setting and the plot.
I've tried Galactic Heroes a few times, but never get very far. I do have some eps around to try again, though. People whose judgment I respect love it.
My favorite sci-fi anime is also my favorite anime, period: Simoun. It has the most beautiful flying machines I've seen, bizarre as they may be, and fighting. But mainly it is about characters, relationships, and the characters' reactions to how a war is going, and to the religious ramifications of fighting. It doesn't take place in space, but on a planet that is not Earth, in a society where everyone is female at birth, and has to choose their future gender at 17. The thing that turns a lot of people off is the fact that all the main characters are female and they have romantic relationships with each other.
That came out in 2006. But a six-episode OVA that began in 2008 and will end later this year has totally captured my attention, too: Eve no Jikan. It is about humanoid robots and their place in a near-future society. Brilliantly done.
As for space opera, however, Macross Frontier was just entertaining, and Tytania was an inferior (but also entertaining) imitation of GH.
I just recently watched Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars (all the way to III). It's become one of my favorites. I also ordered the books and just finished them. There were some interesting tidbits in there that were left out. For example, by seizing Jinto's home planet the Abh cut the rest of the space faring nations off from access to the Fath that lead outside the Milky Way to other galaxies. That's why Jinto's home world has such an important part in the start of the war, and has strategic importance.
I must say I am constantly astonished by the way some people think they are suppose to just accept the "Ahb good, Mankind bad" presentation. I mean, it's pretty obvious that Jinto doesn't believe the Ahb propoganda so why should we? Especially since Jinto is the viewer's avatar and our guide to relating to this strange world.
It's one of the things I really like about Crest of The Stars. It introduces the Ahb as the villians- clearly as the villians. But then introduces us to good and friendly characters like Lafiel to make us forget this and start liking the Ahb. Every once in a while though we are shocked to discover things that shake this viewpoint. That United Mankind propaganda- obviously racist lies and bigotry- but wait- What? It's the truth!? Or we get exposed to bloodthirsty Spoor, or the Insanity Twins. What would our concept of the Ahb be like if they were the first Ahb Jinto had met?
That's one of the things I like about it. It makes us think. Which side should we really be cheering for. And in real life, it reminds us of inconvenient truths. For example, I bet there were a lot of nice Nazis. (I doubt there were many nice SS, but that's because they were selected to not be nice). Just because there were lots of nice Nazis does that mean we should agree with the Nazis, or that it was wrong to fight- and yes- kill them?
I often wonder, if Jinto hadn't met Lafiel, would he have stayed loyal to the Ahb? Might he have gone over to United Mankind instead? Also, would Lafiel be as nice as she is if not for Jinto's influence on her? I have to admit I found her threat to wipe out a planet's atmosphere breathtaking in it's ruthless indifference to human life.
Similarly, the show demonstrates both the strength and weakness of a noble/monarchy/feudal system. On one side we have Lafiel- but on the other we have bloodthirsty people like Spoor, and insane people like whats his name.
I like how Crest of the Stars doesn't just give you what you should believe. Instead it presents a framework, but shows that this frame of mind has a lot of inconsistencies with the actual actions and events.
Anh_Minh
2009-11-02, 15:46
I just recently watched Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars (all the way to III). It's become one of my favorites. I also ordered the books and just finished them. There were some interesting tidbits in there that were left out. For example, by seizing Jinto's home planet the Abh cut the rest of the space faring nations off from access to the Fath that lead outside the Milky Way to other galaxies. That's why Jinto's home world has such an important part in the start of the war, and has strategic importance.
I must say I am constantly astonished by the way some people think they are suppose to just accept the "Ahb good, Mankind bad" presentation. I mean, it's pretty obvious that Jinto doesn't believe the Ahb propoganda so why should we? Especially since Jinto is the viewer's avatar and our guide to relating to this strange world.
It's one of the things I really like about Crest of The Stars. It introduces the Ahb as the villians- clearly as the villians.
The invaders, yes. But as far as The Empire goes, they're pretty mellow.
But then introduces us to good and friendly characters like Lafiel to make us forget this and start liking the Ahb. Every once in a while though we are shocked to discover things that shake this viewpoint. That United Mankind propaganda- obviously racist lies and bigotry- but wait- What? It's the truth!?
In part. It's true that the Abh were created (so were we, according to lots of religions...). It's false that they're unfeeling machines.
Or we get exposed to bloodthirsty Spoor, or the Insanity Twins. What would our concept of the Ahb be like if they were the first Ahb Jinto had met?
Spoor isn't particularly bloodthirsty. No more than, say, Lafiel. (OK, maybe a bad example...) She and the Twins are more like Bunny Ears Lawyers than anything. They're quirky, but they get the job done.
If you want an example of how bad Abh can be... Well, there's Febdash. And you could go on about what looks like their casual disregard for human life, which concerns their culture as a whole. Though on further analysis, it looks more like a tendency to not whine about what can't be helped than actual indifference toward death. Well, that, and ruthlessness, which may actually save lives in the long run.
That's one of the things I like about it. It makes us think. Which side should we really be cheering for.
The side that isn't planning genocide. It's bad enough to think yourself a master race (which the Abh arguably do), but it's much, much worse to deny other people's humanity (which is part and parcel of the Union's policy).
Also, as far as master races go, the Abh are, once again, rather mellow. A mere Lander was their Prime Minister (I guess that's a job Jinto can shoot for, if Lafiel goes for the throne...). Lafiel and her mother had no problem treating Jinto as Abh high nobility, either. That's what his papers said, and that was good enough for them, no matter what his genetic makeup was. Febdash, of course, was the exception, but he was pretty crazy. Note that his family history is another example of how little blood really matters to the Abh - his father was another Lander who got promoted to nobility.
And in real life, it reminds us of inconvenient truths. For example, I bet there were a lot of nice Nazis. (I doubt there were many nice SS, but that's because they were selected to not be nice). Just because there were lots of nice Nazis does that mean we should agree with the Nazis, or that it was wrong to fight- and yes- kill them?
Are you trying to compare the Abh to the nazis? That doesn't hold much water for the reasons outlined above. They're, at worst, an idealized version of colonial Europe. They do think the world should be theirs and try to impose some basic rules on their dominions. But unlike the colonists, they're uninterested in actually colonizing those planets they conquer - they just want to dominate the spaceways.
Note, it doesn't take away the right of people to fight them, of course.
I often wonder, if Jinto hadn't met Lafiel, would he have stayed loyal to the Ahb? Might he have gone over to United Mankind instead?
Possibly. He bore no grudge toward the Abh, even before meeting Lafiel. But he pretty much went with the flow, and his foster parents wanted to resist - he might have gone over to them.
Also, would Lafiel be as nice as she is if not for Jinto's influence on her?
Nice, yes. Open-minded, maybe not. She was rather sheltered before she met him, so there was a lot of behaviors she couldn't even conceive of.
I have to admit I found her threat to wipe out a planet's atmosphere breathtaking in it's ruthless indifference to human life.
I see that the same way I see guerilla tactics, or carpet bombing cities. It may not be "nice" (like there's a nice way to wage war...), but it plays to their strength, plain and simple. They have complete space superiority, but few men. Therefore orbital bombardment's really their only option. Though it would be nice if they had more graduated responses. Like wiping out cities before taking out the whole freaking atmosphere.
Similarly, the show demonstrates both the strength and weakness of a noble/monarchy/feudal system. On one side we have Lafiel- but on the other we have bloodthirsty people like Spoor, and insane people like whats his name.
Spoor does her job, and does it well. Even if she is quirky. As she pointed out, she may treat it a bit too much like a game, but her people aren't going to die because of her stupidity. As for the way she treats her enemies... I can recall two instances where she could be called "bloodthirsty". Once when she said she wanted to pick on the weak - which is a matter of doctrine. That's where she thought her ships would be of most use. And since she's presented as very competent, she probably knows what she's talking about. The other was when the enemy tried to take hostages, and she interpreted the regulations on the treatment of prisoners rather creatively. That, too, is a matter of doctrine. To the Abh, rescuing the hostages is secondary to making sure the hostage takers don't profit from their crime. That they, in fact, regret it dearly. Additionally, it provided enough pressure to save them in the end, which the standard answer of just attacking might not have.
But yeah, Febdash was crazy.
SagaraSouske
2009-11-02, 16:30
Ah, one of my all time favorite series. Too bad it didn't do well enough to get all the later books turned into full series and too bad the author didn't develop the story and characters more - so much lost opportunity with such a rich setting.
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