View Full Version : Gunslinger Girl
Relentless
2003-11-27, 20:19
The old thread was too cluttered with spoiler tags.
:mad: First, I'll complain that those $&*#@$%^* animators :bash: are going to skip chapter 8!!! My favorite story by far!! :frustrated: Episode 7 is going to be based on chapter 9 :sad: Aaagh! I'm gonna sick Henrietta on them. *sighs* At least, the weekly schedule is maintained.
Ahem, back on topic. Full discussion will have to wait until I get a subbed version, but the raw is out and the story is pretty easy to follow. What a relief, it didn't leave you feeling as miserable as the other episodes. But it was the weakest episode so far, minimal character development and even the action sequences were not as tight, which is pity because we finally get to see all girls acting together. Well, all the one who are on active duty (poor Claes ;_; ).
This time there was no doubt, the victims were all bad guys, which help set the rather upbeat mood of this story. Also, Jan the bastard didn't have chance to show off his charm, no Rico beating this time, folks. But the disturbing moments are there, like Jose treating Henrietta to ice cream after she killed those terrorists.
Is it me or was Henrietta looking cuter than usual? I wonder if we'll see again that blonde lady. So far, the girls have not killed any woman, would that have an effect on them?
Triela joins the ranks of James Bond as the only operatives who can sneak behind sentrys and climb walls while wearing tie and three-piece suits and formal shoes. Carrying a full lenght shotgun or rifle was not too clever either. Come on, please treat my favorite child killer with more respect. Or is Hilsher still a rookie? -_-;;
Again, we're treated to Jan the Bastard and his merry band's out-of-this-world tactical genius, sending forward Henrietta to play the scared child: "Kind sirs, please don't mind this little girl's sudden and unexplainable presence in the middle of a shootout when it's almost public knowledge there's a government agency using little girls as assasins. I assure you, I'm not suspicious at all!". *sighs*
All in all, just another day's work for the fine folks at Social Welfare Corporation.
I have to agree with Relentless on most if not all takes. I wouldn't call this a "weak" ep at all. Sometimes you get some great setup for future shows in these. The main "bad girl" for instance seems like she might have a thread down the line. I only say this because a) a good amount of screen time was spent on her b)she got the last few words in and c)she has been the most prominent female character outside the girls we have seen. My japanese is terrible, so I was only picking up a few words out of a hundred. This is what I got from the "feel" of watching it.
Yes, Henrietta looked cuter than usual in this one. ::aoi sugoi::
Making this quick (I'll add some more if possible):
Episode 6 had its good points and bad: the bad was that the animation wasn't so good here (I wanted better animation as this was more action oriented. :(). I also thought it was a bit weird for Henrietta to be just accepted as a hostage after turning up liek that (they should have suspected something, shouldn't they? Then again, they aren't real pros are they.)
However, I found the last part was really nicely ironic. You'll definitely know what I mean.
Note: I watched ToTan's release, it wasn't bad, though I could give some feedback: Please do improve on the sound a little, and also try for fewer spelling errors (though I don't really care SO much). Also some people will probably whine about karaoke (though that wasn't so bad) and typesetting (that I really don't care about. Since I don't watch the ED sequence and the OP is in english for this anime. Plus anyway karaoke sometimes clogs screens up...)
ElvenPath
2003-11-28, 14:38
ToTan is still new, give them time to prove themselves :)
*aznplayboi*
2003-11-28, 15:24
Episode 6 was sooo....boring.
lavarock
2003-11-28, 22:23
Episode 6 was sooo....boring.
Episode 6 was not boring!
we should be seeing more Franca/Franco later, but how come they are good people if they are expert of making bombs??
Go-lytely
2003-11-28, 22:28
Yeah, the ep wasnt boring. Go watch Dragonball Z or something.
However, I found the last part was really nicely ironic. You'll definitely know what I mean.
Sure I do, and it was rather funny indeed :p
Note: I watched ToTan's release, it wasn't bad, though I could give some feedback: Please do improve on the sound a little, and also try for fewer spelling errors (though I don't really care SO much). Also some people will probably whine about karaoke (though that wasn't so bad) and typesetting (that I really don't care about. Since I don't watch the ED sequence and the OP is in english for this anime. Plus anyway karaoke sometimes clogs screens up...)
I agree. I didn´t notice anything special with the karaoke, which is, IMHO, useless anyhow. There were some spelling errors, but nothing systematic or bothersome. The sound quality was a bit ... bad, to put it bluntly, but it wasn´t bothersome either. And the release was quick, which I like :D
As for the storyline: perhaps there wasn´t too much developement (this depends on where the series will go in the future...), but lots of coolness to compensate. People in Rome seemed to have a rather bad taste in clothes tho, and Jan´s jacket was hideous. Hardly relevant, like something else that disappointed me - Triela didn´t fire her shotgun ;)
LoneDust
2003-11-29, 02:40
I like this episode. New characters are plotted in among actions. Neat :)
I have noticed tho that ToTan's release says "ice cream" for episode title.
also noticed from the other post
Ep6: it: gelato = ice cream
jp: houshuu = reward, recompense
That's so misleading!
Props for the first release tho :D thanks!
CompShrink
2003-11-29, 21:13
Episode 6 was sooo....boring.
Dude... it's a slow story, that doesn't make it boring... in fact, the entire series is mostly slow (obviously some great action scenes mixed in) so deal with it or watch something else. Character developement is the goal of the series (so far at least).
Sorry about the spelling, I'm their english editor, but I didn't get it untill 3am... and was extremely rushed because their encoder was leaving for vaction in a couple hours... next one should be much better... as I hope this one was over ep 5 (when they had no one to check their English).
I'll mention the ending could use some work... and the discrepancy between what the Japanese title and the Italian title meant.
About the sound, yes the raw was not the best quality (I also get the raws) I was downloading a better raw, but as I said the encoder had to leave, and so we could not wait this time for it to finish. This situation is unusual, and we will use better raws in the future. Sound wasn't terrible, but could have been better.
I enjoyed the irony in the last scene as well. :D
I'll talk to them about the ending kareoke, but we don't have an Italian translator, so...
And your welcome LoneDust! :)
Relentless
2003-12-01, 00:19
I didn't mean this episode was bad. In fact, it was good but compared with the others, I didn't like it as much. We didn't get to know more about the girls and the action scenes were not too exciting. From the manga, one could imagine Henrietta diving to the floor and killing that guy almost at the same time Triela entered the room.
A good point was using the girls for surveillance. It's logical, who's going to suspect a little girl is spying on them? It seems that besides strenght and bullet-proofness, they have enhanced senses like in the old Six Billion Dollar Man/Bionic Woman series.
Maybe it's the raw I got, but I didn't notice any difference with the animation, other than Henrietta ubercuteness.
*aznplayboi*
2003-12-01, 03:10
uhhh....people...i like the series...just not this episode.......anyway, my comment was an OPINION, MY OPINION, hey... im not complaining. do i have to love it? no...
Hao Asakura
2003-12-04, 10:40
Is it me or was Henrietta looking cuter than usual?
Henrietta tottemo kawaii-ne in this episode. Seeing her face blushes in red is just priceless. I have a bad feeling that Henrietta might confront those Franca and Franco later on in the series.
Anyway, we want more Henrietta. I'm NOT a pedophile u know, just to avoid misunderstanding :heh:
I'm NOT a pedophile u know, just to avoid misunderstanding :heh:
Sure your not :heh: j/k but anyways I too didn't find this episode boring it wasn't like the last episodes but it does tells us more about the feelings of those gunslinger girls. Yea I also thought seeing Henrietta blush like that was so cute. Thats what I find ironic about this anime, kids should look cute and not be going around being used as assassins but I guess they would make a perfect assassin since most ppl would never find a kid as suspicious as a adult.
Relentless
2003-12-04, 21:51
Henrietta blushes at the drop of a hat, what bothers slightly is how young she looked, like 5 or 6 y-o :eyebrow:
I don't quite get it, why was Jose so angry in the restaurant?
well a little fast preview I got and I can tell ya there will be some action, chasing in this ep. :)
BTW, I like this new fansub group ToTan, they are fast and bring quality in their works :D
I don't maybe it was just me but episode 5+6 by ToTan had weird sounding audio. Of course, it could of been my computer. But then tonight its clear as day, maybe they fixed it. And I can't argue with the above statement, their downloads are incredible. All done in 15 minutes.
Nice episode and all looking forward to next weeks. I still like Henrietta out of all the girls. Than Claes, Triela, then Rico.
*aznplayboi*
2003-12-05, 22:14
Actually don't think totan puts much time in there work...well at least not as much as others. The screen isn't as sharp, but hey...at least they do it for us....right?
CompShrink
2003-12-06, 00:35
Actually don't think totan puts much time in there work...well at least not as much as others. The screen isn't as sharp, but hey...at least they do it for us....right?
Well, maybe we (ToTan) don't spend as long as other groups, but that's how you get them faster... ;) We do try extremely hard to put out a good quality product, but we also try to do it fast. This leads to some minor mistakes, definately, but I think each episode has been better than the last, and I think that will continue.
BTW, some really nice action scenes in this, some character developement, but it seems alot less than previous episodes, and more action. It's good, but seems really different, especially since the last episode was a little slower than usually.
*aznplayboi*
2003-12-06, 04:12
lol....well actually...i dont care or look carefully at it and look at the kareoke and all that sh!t like other people. Im just happy that u do it and u do it FAST. =) ......key word being fast. lol
all in all, good job ToTan. Keep up the good work. Hope you get hands on other upcoming new series too :)
FlyByNite
2003-12-06, 09:23
Wow. This episode was a work of art. It's fitting so much of it takes place in a museum and around sculptures and paintings.
Were the names of the paintings and sculptures put in there by the fansubbers or were they done in English by the animators? If someone fansubbing it actually knew the names of all that stuff... Wow ;)
But some of the transitions in this episode were great. We go from Jan interrogating the guy in the bathroom and saying "Two Reasons...First Reason...Second..." then we go to Fillipo saying "Two Reasons...First...Second" in a conversation with Rico... Just a great transition.
BTW, I hope Gunslinger Girl is getting money from the Italian board of tourism, cuz this episode makes me wanna visit Florence ;)
Go-lytely
2003-12-06, 19:04
It's pretty obvious the fansubbers put in the names of the pictures. First, because it's written in English. It would have been written in Japanese if the animators put them in. Second the font is exactly the same as the subtitles and it is very easy to tell that they were overlayed.
;)
Pretty nice episode. And yes, as others said, this time ToTan got a much clearer sound. :) I don't have anything wrong with the translation, I can understand enough of what they're saying and I don't have a very high standard for fast subs coming out, what I want to know is the story and such, not super-accurate translation or kickass karaoke or what not....
By the way, Triad's #7 is out.... oh, and news: the next episode will be pushed back ANOTHER week, yes AGAIN, because of some pause in broadcast... so it will only be out 17th Dec. in Japan.
Damn.
EDIT: Just a leetle stuff on the next episode... not much really.
Edit: The next episode, I cannot be bothered with the translation.... too many "ni"'s. It's called "The prince of the pasta kingdom" in Italian - Il Principe del regno della pasta. The Japanese title, 御伽噺 , is O-togi hanashi. The "hanashi" kanji seems to be the same meaning as the usual "hanashi", that is a story... I think it is quite obscure... as for o-togi, well o-togi hanashi as in THIS 御伽話 O-togi hanashi means fairy tale. So I suppose it's the same thing.
eMpTy265
2003-12-07, 10:35
ToTan's subs are pretty amazing, considering the speed at which they release the ep's.
I was originally collecting Triad's subs, but as of now [ToTan] my pick.
(oh BTW, is ToTan doing anything other than GSG?)
(Also, are you planning to release ep.1-3 as well? Cuz if not I'll just burn my Triad versions. =D)
thx [ToTan]
Beauty of an episode. I think I get too much of a kick out of seeing small girls fire huge rifles. Suspicious freudian impulses...
*aznplayboi*
2003-12-07, 17:23
small girls with fat @SS guns.....such a great combination. :'')''''
mono no aware
2003-12-07, 17:35
reminds me of episode 13 of noir ...
CompShrink
2003-12-07, 17:48
ToTan is concintrating on GsG, so we can do a fast job, and hopefully a quality one too. We may be fast, but it's not like we've done 24 hour releases like some groups have in the past. We will do something else when GsG ends of course, and in the future we may do 2 projects at once, but that's still up in the air...
Yes, we will be doing 1-3, and then redoing 4+ as well, into bilingual subs, since much of our group is Czech, they will be mastroika with Cz&Eng subs. (still divx & mp3)
Glad to hear the possitive feedback!
LoneDust
2003-12-07, 18:06
on Totan's sub:
in the beginning of ep 7 they had this women singing in the background. The 2nd phrase is "but it took convincing"?
on Totan's sub:
in the beginning of ep 7 they had this women singing in the background. The 2nd phrase is "but it took convincing"?
Yes, exactly. You can check it there - http://www.delgados.co.uk/archive_lyrics_woke.htm
And as CompShrink already said... Yes, current plan is to release eps 1-3 together with the rest of the series after the series ends. All episodes with corrected errors etc. in matroska format with cz/en subs.
I liked this episode, Jan was also nicer to Rico. There are similarities to Noir (like almost total lack of morals, using little girls as assasins), but so much is different (like most of the people is alive in the end of episodes) that I don't think GSG as a Noir-copy.
Nice when they started in artmuseum and even talked a lot about art. And all ended in car-chase.
Animation was good, it truelly made those paintings and statues look realistic. I want to visit Florence too.
I couldn't stop laughing when Christiano bitch-slapped Glielmo for pulling out his cell in a museum.
FlyByNite
2003-12-08, 14:02
I liked this episode, Jan was also nicer to Rico.
I think Jan was actually nicer cuz they were in public. ;)
Icehellion
2003-12-08, 14:08
I don't know about the animation. IMHO, it's not as good as first couple episodes. Oh well, I still enjoyed it. A lot more action than the past episodes
*WARNING THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS. DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT YET WATCHED THE SERIES*
I just wanted to start a Gunslingers Girl thread where we can talk about a specific issue which greatly interests me without the use of spoiler tags. We can also add to this thread as we watch more episodes. I'm up to 7 right now.
The question here is this: How much of their behavior is due to brain washing, and how much came from themselves? If some of their actions are genuine, what could possibly be their motivation?
From what I can tell the girls have several traits that's more or less in common, and all these I contribute to brainwashing:
1. Absolute obidience to their big brother's orders
2. Fearlessness in face of danger
3. Lack of conscience when it comes to killing
4. Lack of past memories or emotional attachment to their past/family
However I do find the girs have their own motivation, I believe:
Henrietta:
Aside from the brainwashing, she has total love and devotion toward Jose. She will do anything to please him or protect him. I don't believe this came from brainwashing, but from within herself. I do think her memories are erased but she is aware exactly what's happened to her body. As a little girl in love things like her past and the whereabouts of her family is not as important as making Jose happy. Plus Jose has repeatedly rejected using more "Rico"-like conditioning on Henrietta, thus I think aside from what I wrote above, Henrietta is her own person.
Rico:
I think she's the most emotionally wrecked and brainwashed girl thus far. She appearantly do remember her family and her past, but think nothing of it other than she really prefer having a working body rather than being sick and dying all the time. I suspect this rationalizing is actually due to brainwashing. She seemed to be trying to seek out her trueself, but Jan, her big bro, I think used extra conditioning on her to erase her humanity. In episode 7 she again showed a lot of heart... it seemed that Rico is constantly fighting her conditioning and trying to become herself again. She is the most interesting character to me right now. I secrely hope she will one day put a bullet in Jan's head.
Triela:
Triela is the most emotionally well-adjusted girl in the bunch. She also remembers her past and about her parents, and knows very well that she's a killer working for the gov't. She's even capable of independant thoughts and action, and even lying to her handler! Since she's been in the Corp for 6-7 years now, they probably trusts her enough to lower their brainwashing and treating her more like a regular agent. From the way her big bro treated her, I have a feeling that he's really seeing her more like a co-worker rather than a "little sister". I think Triela knows and understand very well that she's a special trained killer and totally accepted her life as it is. There maybe a sub-story involving her parents with the Corp, so she maybe doing it for them. I'll be waiting for her story to develop more.
Claes:
All we know thus far is that she has lost her handler and won't listen to anyone else, thus relegated to the role of ur basic lab animal. Emotionally, I think she has been re-conditioned after the death of her big bro but he has etched something deep inside of her which she won't forget, but she has no memory of him. Seemed like a closed book but I hope for something more. That episode was a tear-jerker for me.
Angelica:
Know nothing of her right now. May not be introduced to the storyline yet. Will update as we know more.
Corporation:
Just want to add some comment about them. Aside from Jose, I don't think any of them sees the girls as human being. Sometimes it's hard for me to believe a group of folks who are supposed to be the good guys can do these things to these innocent girls. I guess they must have rationed that if not for the CORP, the girls would have died, and in doing secret killing for the goverment, the girls were being patriotic and paying back the gov't at the same time. Still, sometimes I find it hard to believe that. If they were a secret mafia outfit with design for crime, then maybe I would have bought it more.
Hopefully we can generate some discussion from fans of this fantastic series. I'm sure all of you have your own theories. Please do share!
My hope for the end of the show: The girls band together and DESTROY the Corp, and run away to another country to live the rest of their lives without brainwashing. I hope they kill everyone except maybe Jose, since Henrietta will probably kill everyone on the planet before she allow Jose to be hurt. Boy that will kick ass.
*aznplayboi*
2003-12-17, 22:39
O.O ................. im to lazy to read everything but claes's story was saad.
tl, dr.
:joke: (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl%3Adr)
IMSabbel
2003-12-18, 01:00
One word about the organisation:
They are EVIL, they all have to DIE!
Well, at least they definitly arent good guys. Remember Episode 3? Assasinatin a innocent politician only because a "godfather" was annoyed by him? They are no better than the Mafia, "protecting" their country/people as long as they have the right to decide who lives and who dies...
Ducati_nut
2003-12-18, 02:34
My hope for the end of the show: The girls band together and DESTROY the Corp, and run away to another country to live the rest of their lives without brainwashing. I hope they kill everyone except maybe Jose, since Henrietta will probably kill everyone on the planet before she allow Jose to be hurt. Boy that will kick ass.
I hope that happens to, but with a twist. I think Jose is the only adult that would revolt against the organization. If he does revolt, then Henrietta would naturally be with him. So far the only other girls that seem capable of revolting would be Claes and Triela. Claes has no allegience to anyone at the organization, and she probably loathes the scientists that treat her as a lab rat. Triela has already showed hints of rebellious behavior. Rico, sadly, is too brainwashed to know any better. She would never go against Jan's orders. If the rebellion occurred now, then it would be Henrietta, Claes, and Triela against lone Rico. I really do hope the ending pits the girls against each other, and doesn't end with everybody living happily ever after.
Just one note on the corporation. Don't think they're working for the government. The girls are not all italian and as far as we know the brothers are all dropouts of some kind.
I would say the Corporation is funded by "THEM" or whoever else it is that really runs things...
On another note the show reminds me a bit of the Bourne Identity. The "mental conditioning" sorta failed on the main protagonist in that movie and then things went bad...
Rico:
I think she's the most emotionally wrecked and brainwashed girl thus far.
Plus she can kill without any kind of remorse, other may have talked to that hotel boy so that it wouldn't be necessary to kill him, but Rico just remembers Jan's instructions.
I really do hope the ending pits the girls against each other, and doesn't end with everybody living happily ever after.
Happy endings suck. :D
Only one to initiate rebellion againts corporation is Triela since she is "leader" of the girls because she is oldest and has shown that she can think independently, but I too feel that he is already accepted her role. Henrietta may follow Triela but is too attached to Jose to even think something that will put him in danger, so Jose must also join rebellion. Claes and Rico are just like puppets, (at this moment, may change in future) and are unlikely to object their treatment.
So far GSG has been good cambination of action and emotional episodes, but there has been no "big plot" in this series, just random episodes (or so it seems) about those girls, but of course this can change. They should just kill those "brothers", or at least most of them...
Edit: I checked official site, ep. 8 is out and it is about Angelica! (According the little japanese I understand and a single picture of her)
I hope that happens to, but with a twist. I think Jose is the only adult that would revolt against the organization. If he does revolt, then Henrietta would naturally be with him. So far the only other girls that seem capable of revolting would be Claes and Triela. Claes has no allegience to anyone at the organization, and she probably loathes the scientists that treat her as a lab rat. Triela has already showed hints of rebellious behavior. Rico, sadly, is too brainwashed to know any better. She would never go against Jan's orders. If the rebellion occurred now, then it would be Henrietta, Claes, and Triela against lone Rico. I really do hope the ending pits the girls against each other, and doesn't end with everybody living happily ever after.
I like the part about Jose being the leader of the rebellion, since Henrietta is probably the main character of the series, and Jose is really treating her more like a family everyday.
I think, unfortunately, this series will not end in a happy note. I think Rico will, unfortunately die at the end. I believe she will attempt and try to escape her brainwashing, but it's pretty appearant that Rico is a tragic character and her fate won't be pleasant. Can things get worse than killiing the boy you have a crush on in cold blood?
Triela has potential, but I happen to think that she's probably the only girl who's actually OK with her position in life, that she consciously chooses to be the killer that she is. And there maybe other reasons why she's so willing too. I think Triela won't turn easily, but may do it at the end.
Claes will definately be part of rebellion. Her soul has been stamped with independance which the brainwashing can't erase, and I think she can easily turn on the Corp.
Sadly, I think at the end the gilrs will end up fighting each other. Some may live, some may die. If a uprising happens now, I think will be Henrietta/Claes versus Triela and Rico, unfortunately. Angelica then becomes the X-factor... what's her story? Which side will she choose?
Gosh I hate being addicted to series like this. You love it but you know you'll hate the ending. You can just see Jose being gunned down by one of the girls and Henrietta full of bullets trying to help Jose... aiyaiyai...
Just one note on the corporation. Don't think they're working for the government. The girls are not all italian and as far as we know the brothers are all dropouts of some kind.
I would say the Corporation is funded by "THEM" or whoever else it is that really runs things...
I think they are definately connected to the gov't. They are feared by both the terrorists and the mofia. I think they're more like a shadow FBI... top secret para-military outfit that does the gov't bidding but stay outside of the law. That doesn't make them the good guys since this particular gov't is very obviously corrupt to the core. Remember Clae's handler said that he joined so that he can re-join the Military Police later? Whomever funds the CORP must have close ties with the military as well.
A lot of them are foreigners, ur right. I think Jose is Spanish and Jan is Friench, no? And the we know Claes is definately German. I think Triela and Henrietta is Italian though. Not sure about Rico... probably Italian too.
Happy endings suck. :D
I would normally agree with you since I like deep anime with a lot of hidden meanings. That usually translate to sad endings. I am an EVA fan so I guess in some anime I do prefer it.
BUT this is NOT one of those anime! The girls are surrounded by so much tragedy and sadness already, I mean the first thing we learn about Henrietta was the fact that she was brutally raped while her entire family was killed! 2 Episode later we saw Rico gunning down her first crush! I mean talking about emotional trauma... a sad ending for these girls is NOT something I'd want. I'm okay with ending a silly comedy like Mahoromatic with a dramatic ending (not that I like it.. I don't), but please, please, PLEASE give these poor girls some acceptable end.
but I'm smart enough to know that it's inevitable that they will end up killing each other. Sigh.
I think they are definately connected to the gov't.
Ony in the sense that "THEM" also secretly runs the goverment. Yeah paranoia!! :D
Relentless
2003-12-18, 12:59
Very nice thread.
Another interesting point is how different each big brother or handler are. They're not outright absolute bastards like the guy in Kite. It lends the series a "shades if gray" feeling. OK, they're all a bunch of rotten manipulators and abusers since they DO use little girls to commit acts of unspeakeable evil , but as I said in another thread, one can't deny several of them really and sincerely care for their young wards, and consider them more than simple tools. But is that enough to make up the fact they're still evil? And by extension, are the girls evil too? Are they accountable? Sure, they were brainwashed or conditioned, but they still know what they're doing. One utterly chilling scene many may have not been aware of happened in episode 4, when Triela coldy and off-hand-ly told Hilsher "When we find him (Mario), we kill him, right?". Also, nobody ansered my question in the GSG ep 6 thread, but I still don't know why Jose was so angry when they were eavesdropping the terrorists in the restaurant that he told Henrietta to "take pleasure in killing them". It was very out of character.
Well, back to my point:
Jose is supossedly the nicest of the bunch. He loves Henrietta like a sister and treats her well, and he's concerned about her wellbeing, beyond her mere physical fitness for the job. He might be a naive idealist, thinking he's helping the girl because she has forgotten her sad past and has given her some kind of new life. Maybe he thinks the Corp. is not going to kill her or destroy her when she is not useful anymore, or maybe he thinks they can escape.
Jan is the biggest bastard who walks on Earth, but I have to concede that he's the least hypocritic. The girls are tools for a job and he uses them like that. Be he has no right to hit Rico, dammit! :mad: He doesn't care about Rico's feelings and doesn't explain her anything, his whole attitude is "just do it or get replaced".
Hilsher is another sympatethic character, much like Jose. His relationship with Triela is just like a father with a daughter stranged because she entered the upheavals of adolescence. They don't know how to comunicate, but strangely, they can talk to other people, friends or even strangers, quite easily. He cares enough about Triela that he tells her that all the people they have to kill are "bad guys". He explains her the missions in detail too. Finally, he's nobody's fool or tool, and he's the most idealistic. He already rebelled against EUROPOL when he judged that it was more important to bust the kidnapping operation than capturing a Mafia executive. I can perfectly believe that he will turn against the Corp. to try to save Triela.
Raballo was second to none the most well adjusted character. A cold, nonsense field operative who only cared about returning to his job, he was stern and severe but fair to Claes, and later he become to love her like a daughter. Claes is the only girl who has openly referred to his partner as a father. When he fully realized how wrongly the girls have been treated, he tried to take down the Corp. by blowing a whistle but unfortunately was killed. Unlike Jose or Hilsher who are more or less contented with the Corp.'s "works", he tried to act, to do something that might help or improve the girls (or at least, Claes') situation.
I think I have written enough :heh: I'll update it when we got to see Angelica's story and his handler, Marco.
Another interesting point is how different each big brother or handler are.
Yes, that is kinda interesting.. thanks for the post. To me they are more or less the same except for Jose and Raballo. But you do make some good points. I agree there's some shades of Gray here, BUT, I think a guy with any sense of decency would do what Raballo did, which is trying to rescue them by exposing the horror. I don't care how much Jose really cares for Henrietta; as long as he stay with the CORP dogma and put these girls in danger on a daily basis, he's still shit in my book.
But is that enough to make up the fact they're still evil? And by extension, are the girls evil too? Are they accountable? Sure, they were brainwashed or conditioned, but they still know what they're doing. One utterly chilling scene many may have not been aware of happened in episode 4, when Triela coldy and off-hand-ly told Hilsher "When we find him (Mario), we kill him, right?"
The answer is, no, with a qualifier. The handlers weren't brainwashed at all, they did what they did completely out of their own free will. That's evil. The girls are all brainwashined to some degree. For Henrietta, Claes, and Rico, I would say they know not what they do, for the brainwashing has taken away their dread of mortality. They do not fear death nor do they care when others die. That's just not natural for pre-teen girls (or anyone).
The qualifier, however, is Triela. She seemed to have a total grasp of her situation and her past. I'm not sure how much brainwashing she's gotten, if any at all. I suspect that she no longer receive any conditioning, as demostrated by her own decision to let Mario go (and lying to Hilsher about it afterwards). That's disobeying a direct order from her handler, and she just did it without thinking much about it. I believe that Triela's just like the handler in her psychology, that she chose to be a killer like Hilsher or Jan out of her own free will, not due to conditioning. So if you ask me "Is Triela evil?" I .... I don't know how to answer that. Yet. :)
Also, nobody ansered my question in the GSG ep 6 thread, but I still don't know why Jose was so angry when they were eavesdropping the terrorists in the restaurant that he told Henrietta to "take pleasure in killing them". It was very out of character.
That maybe due to a backstory about Jose, that he has more intense (personal?) hatred toward the terrorists. Hmmm.. could it be that Jose joined to CORP for revenge? That his family or someone close was killed by the terrorists? If That's the case, then it would explain why Jose was so nice to Henrietta, that he seemed really wanted to help her, but maybe too powerless to stop it. He's not a heartless killer or a professional assassin like Jan. This may turn out to be the main plot in the future, and the reason they spend the first 2 episode on Jose and Henrietta.
Some short comments:
Maybe [Jose] thinks the Corp. is not going to kill her or destroy her when she is not useful anymore, or maybe he thinks they can escape.
I agree with your assessment of Jose. I think he is biding his time to break Henrietta out of there. Another one of his consideration maybe the fact that Henrietta maybe what, 50% artificial, and without the CORP and their cybernetic technology, she would die anyway. She has to stay to keep herself alive. Jose will be the catalyst for change.
Jan is the biggest bastard who walks on Earth
Like I've said before, I would do 3 cheers when Rico puts a .45 through Jan's cranium.
Hilsher is another sympatethic character, much like Jose. His relationship with Triela is just like a father with a daughter
Their relationship to me is more like peer to peer. I think Hilsher respect Triela more like a peer rather than father/daughter. I think it's due to Jose's treatment of Henrietta that he was reminded that this here's still a little girl, not a pro like himself. As for breaking Triela out, I don't think he'll go that far since althought he's more idealistic than others, he's still a professional killer. I think he's really relieved that Triela didn't ask him for perfume or clothes but just another teddy... Don't think Triela expect or want warmth from him. She, as much as him, wants to keep their relationship as professional as possible. I think that's another aspect of Triela that's telling me she's just as much a pro as the handlers. She's only shorter and much, much cuter.
Raballo was second to none the most well adjusted character.
Raballo's the only MAN of the bunch. 'nuff said. He knows he's going to be killed for helping Claes and he did it anyway. Yes he failed but his spirit lives on through Claes. The man risked everything in order to save an innocent girl he barely knows. That's a true display of manhood.
But is that enough to make up the fact they're still evil?
Any good train of thought regarding real-world psychology will never use the classification "evil", and even in discussing a fictional world which can of course only approximate the real one, any such necessity indicates that what is being discussed is no longer psychology. "Evil" is a word which is used specifically to avoid any kind of deep psychological understanding of a person, idea or culture, usually because such understanding would undermine a comfortable illusion (such as the idea that you would and could never be capable of doing such a thing) or to make the gratification of the revenge impulse more satisfying. Instead of dismissing such a thing as "evil", (a concept that of course is based on the fundamentally flawed notion that a little bit of meaningless randomness at the quantum level somehow makes behaviour that follows from a combination of the genetic code given at conception and one's experiences thereafter, along with the specific conditions at the time, some sort of meaningful "choice"), we should be discussing notions of (micro)cultural conditioning, group behaviour and the like.
For example, we have Jan hitting Rico. And he sees her as a tool. Lets extend that notion, and say that he doesn't see her as a human. It's OK to take one's rage out on a convenient lamppost, say, it's OK to kill loads of polygon collections in a computer game, so this is a similar idea to those, maybe. So if that's the case, why doesn't he see her as human? Is it a convenient lie he tells himself to avoid having to consider the implications of what they're doing? (a protective mechanism). Something that reflects an inner disgust at the procedure, and by extension its products? Of course, it might be that the author hasn't considered this question, and has simply reasoned "he does this because he's a bastard," under which conditions he is indeed doing it because he has an evil role in the story, but in this case we are now not discussing realistic human behaviour (there is always some reason that people behave the way they do), so it's no longer a discusssion about psychology, it's merely about the story being told.
It's high-time an intelligent discussion took place here, and GSG is just the fertile ground needed. Now, I'll join in...as soon as I go and get a degree in psychology. :o
"Evil" is a word which is used specifically to avoid any kind of deep psychological understanding of a person
I would agree with that. "Evil" is not a description but a judgement from one person's view. I guess that's why the the mental states of most handler except Jose are of no interest to me; to explain why they do what they do is, although a valid debate, is being done to the death for years. People trying to analyze why people display anti-social or destructive behavior, that's not where I want to go. I want to know specifically what the girls think and split their own minds from the brainwashing.
For example, we have Jan hitting Rico. .
I like what you say about Jan. Yes he's a bastard but even extreme cases like Jeffery Dalmer and The DC snipers can rationalize their behavoir in their own way. But what happens in Triela and Rico's mind is so much more interesting to me. Jan to me is a typical alpha-male, self-centered character who uses everyone around him to get what he wanted. Kinda boring if you ask me. Rico's constant struggle to eek out what's left of her humanity is so much more facinating than Jan acting like a self-important mofo. His only role in the show is to make you feel how special Rico really is when she, out of all people, COMFORTED that idiotic ex-artist accountant.
Oh please, please don't kill Rico....
It's high-time an intelligent discussion took place here, and GSG is just the fertile ground needed. Now, I'll join in...as soon as I go and get a degree in psychology. :o
Nonono.. this is an anime board for crying out loud. It's entertaiment and not some high-minded dissertation. Please do join in and share your thoughts... it doesn't take a degree in anything to feel for these girls. :) I certainly don't have a degree in psychology (I did want a real job back in the days :) ); I just want to share some thought about what's in those girls heads. I'm sure anyone who enjoy the show can do that. GSG is not exactly EVA u know... :)
Ony in the sense that "THEM" also secretly runs the goverment. Yeah paranoia!! :D
I thought everyone knows that the Mob actually runs the Italian gov't :)
*Joke here, no offense to true Italian brothers here :)*
Jan to me is a typical alpha-male, self-centered character who uses everyone around him to get what he wanted.
Now why that sounds familar... my impression of Gendo Ikari is same, althought he uses manipulation and others do the dirty job. So maybe GSG is not NGE but characters are as emotionally wrecked as those in NGE.
So does Jans treatment of Rico become future plot points, maybe, but I wonder why Jose doesn't object his brothers actions since Jose truly cares about Henrietta, but maybe selfish reasons, he knows that what they are doing is wrong and by trying to give Henrietta as much of "normal life" as he can, he hopes to save his on soul.
At least Triela understands Ricos situation when she said that Rico is like work dog for Jan. Henrietta cares about the other girls but does Triela cares what is happening to Rico? She isn't very warm towards the other girls, exception is Henrietta, she helped her to speak to Jose.
I wished that GSG would be 26 episodes long, 13 episodes is too short for a such wonderfully twisted characters.
The Faction's Lord
2003-12-20, 07:45
Wow, my first post, anyway, GG is the first and only anime I've downloaded, and I have seen Episode - 8 :D
Anyway this is besides the point. I'm wondering what would happen if Jan died, would Rico react like Claes? I don't think so, as that ******* doesn't treat her as a human being, just a tool, hence she will be unaffected or not very much, unlike Claes who had a breakdown.
Also, I think that Jose will actually try to rescue Henrietta at the end of the series, taking her with him, thus the other Fratello's will be dispatched to bring him and Henrietta down. This raises the question of how deeply the girls have bonded and whether they will attack each other. As shown in episode 5 there is a possibility that they will attack each other.
lavarock
2003-12-20, 17:07
Can anybody explain to me what really happened in episode 8? Or will it all be explained in Episode 9? Seems to me Angelica is having problems with memory, long term memory loss it seems. But episode 8 didn't explain what caused it or it's just because they screwed up her brain?
Hummm... :)
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=305 :p
Don't you think it would your question would fit very well here? :)
CompShrink
2003-12-21, 16:40
hm... I think it's just implyed that a side effect of "conditioning" is severe memory loss. In a previous episode Jose said he didn't want henrietta reconditioned, he didn't "want to lose all his work," or somethjing to that extent.
Alright I've just finished episode 8 and wanted to contribute to this thread some more.
First thing: Jose is seriously concern about Henrietta, where as you can tell the rest of the goons seemed to treat the gilrs like toys. He's ploting something, you can just tell from his eyes. his guilt is eating at him everday, something's gotta give soon.
Now Finally we've learned all about Angelica. She appeared to be the FIRST "Gitai" cyborg... that's surprising since I thought for certain Triela was first (she maybe just the oldest). Maybe due to the problem with earlier conditioning medicine, she does not retain certain long term memories. So it seemed that althought she's sweet and kind, she but a shell of a girl, her soul almost spent. She's just as sweet and nice as Henrietta, but due to Jose's protection, Henrietta retained more of herself than Angelica. I don't believe she has much of herself left, and anything she would do to further her humanity she will soon forget, just like how she forgot all about her "possibilities".
Marco, her handler, seemed to be a normal joe at first, but I think, interestingly, has chosen a typical psychological escape to deal with himself: he has chosen to distant himself emotionally from Angelica. I think he was more like Jose to begin with, that he wanted to help this sad little girl all he can and help her adjust to her new life. But as he "train" her more and see her emerge more as this mindless killing machine, I believe that in his mind, the more "Pasta Prince" story he tell her, the more he can tell himself that he's actually helping her, not destroying her. However, when the result of the conditioning begin to affect Angelica's memory, he realized that all he did and build with Angelica was for naught; his efforts didn't mean a damn thing for her psychologically. All he did was act like a dog trainer, telling her how to kill.
Since his self-rationalization was based on his pasta story, the fact that she didn't remember it destroyed his self-delusion, and then he has to pick the next-best line of reasoning: treating her like a tool, just like our beloved Mr. Jan. Distanting himself emotionally utterly from her in order to do his job. Will he save her? not a chance. He's more like Jan to me than anyone else. His intention to start maybe fine, but at the end he's just a selfish bastard like the rest of them.
Angelica, it seemed, is more "Rico" than Rico herself. Her story will end in sadness, it seemed.
lavarock
2003-12-22, 01:59
Good Analysis, but anybody can give a explaination why Angelica has problem with long term memory? Is it a side effect from repetitive reconditioning?
The Faction's Lord
2003-12-22, 06:09
Yes, it states in earlier episodes that Jose doesn't want Henrietta reconditioned because it leads to memory loss. I wonder if Angelica can go on missions, because although her memory isn't good she still should be able to do all the things the others can.
Secondly, I think that the reason why in earlier episodes that the other handlers respected Marcos is due to the fact that he was the first.
Angelica was the first and I believe that the earlier conditioning drugs were used on her and she was brain-damaged due to it. I think Rico and others conditioned with newer drugs without that much side-effects so they do retain long-term memories, but only the memory the corp wanted them to have.
I too think she's too disabled to go on missions. You can't do much without long term memory, and it would be dangerous for others if she suddenly forget something in the middle of battle. Thus we've only seen Henrietta, Triela, and Rico in action at this point. Marco's more pissed now cus Angelica's memory issues has hindered his ability to go on missions, since his "tool" is not as useful as Jan's or Jose's. Big disadvantage in this ruthless organization of testoterone-driven killers.
Interesting note: it does appear that the CORP is made up of mostly non-Italians. Maybe the CORP is not run by the Italian Gov't after all... my speculation is that it's ran by either a coilition of multinational spy agencies, or a secret society like the Soldats contracting to the Italian Gov't for anti-terrorism purposes.
stormy001_M1A2
2003-12-22, 12:56
My commentaries on other neglected or overlooked aspects:
I agreed with the possible premise that Henrietta will the catalyst of big changes in the story. However it remains to be seen whether Triela will go against the organization. Rico and Angelica is pretty much clear where they will be. But what makes me intrigued is the resident lab rat, Claes.
Captain Rabarro or Ravallo has accidently created a trigger in Claes. By asking her to wear the glasses, he is asking her to be human but he also specified that she also must do utmost to complete her assigned mission. However with current absence of captain, it is difficult to imagine if she will be doing any covert operations anymore.
I personally think that Claes is the scariest girl, here is a person who keep taking abuses but not complaining at all to let off the steam. If one day she took off the glasses, a lot of people will lose their lives because of a postal amok brainwashed highly trained assassin girl. Right now she is pretty much enigmatic and silent but I do figure that her will be the major factor in the conclusion of this story.
Jan and Jose is siblings (episode 1) and the reason why they were right now is because of revenge. In episode 5, Rabarro/Ravallo asking whether Jan quit the military is because he is on revenge vendetta directly and in episode 6, Jan showed barely repressed anger at the terrorist themselves which is quite out of character of him. I can safely speculate that their family was killed by the anti-establishment terrorist/freedom fighters and they using their underage charges to exact vengeance. Jan has cast away all his humanity and very single minded in name of revenge, Jose/Giuseppe still retain some humanity by doubting the way it is done to get the revenge itself.
What interests me is the inclusion of terrorist/freedom fighter POV in the whole setup. It is obvious the bombers is idealist and they have their own reasons as to why they going against the Italian goverment. It also revealed they also have conscience like an average person would have but it is something about the government that they dead set against and willing to fight it . The older terrorist was talking about inequality of North and South Italy which is indication of perceived social injustice and inequality just like why the ETA doing in Spain now. ( the Basque seperatist terrorist group)
I think the bomber pair will return to haunt the 2nd Section again in the future.
I hope they will talk about the dead fratello story which featured in manga. It could be the key to the whole story. The dead girl name is Elsa.
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For fun factor:
Here I will do some ideas on characters based on John Woo's style of using gun characteristics to reveal the characters.
Henrietta:
P239 SiG Sauer, compact and lethal. Pretty much like the user.
FN P90, ibid.
Rico:
Dragunov SVD sharpshooter rifle, distanced and solitary.
Triela:
Winchester trench shotgun, in-your-face, brutal, straight to the point. If possible into your guts.
Angelica:
Steyr AUG Carbine with Pictanilly rail, no comment yet. (Will edit when I seen the proper sub for it)
Claes:
HK MP 5K PDW, silent and deadly
HK VP 70 stock custom, exotic and unsual
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Just some opinions.
Addendum: I will not comment on ep 8 because I do not think their translation is that accurate. I rather wait for better subs to comment on Angelica situation more.
The Faction's Lord
2003-12-22, 13:20
I personally think that Claes is the scariest girl, here is a person who keep taking abuses but not complaining at all to let off the steam. If one day she took off the glasses, a lot of people will lose their lives because of a postal amok brainwashed highly trained assassin girl. (I'm not sure if that will work or not as this is my first time doing this sort of stuff) I have to agree there, the other freaky thing was that in that episode (8), when they are doing a simulation about using more Fratellos, when Claes looks at the camera she smiles as if she liked it or something *shudders*
(I'm not sure if that will work or not as this is my first time doing this sort of stuff) I have to agree there, the other freaky thing was that in that episode, when they are doing a simulation about using more Fratellos, when Claes looks at the camera she smiles as if she liked it or something *shudders*
I'm not sure I see her as the scariest, but I see potential in her to rebel against the CORP. To me Triela's the scariest, because she seemed to be the only one consciously accepted her role. Triela's more like that female ex-Russian spy to me, just another killer.
As for Claes not complaining, well, I don't think any of the girls ever complaint about anything, openly or privately. I think it's part of the conditioning. However, I do believe deep down that Claes do remember her big bro and what he told her, and she may act on it one day.
I didn't pickup Jan and Jose are brothers... gotta re-watch the earlier episodes again. :)
stormy001_M1A2
2003-12-30, 16:58
Finally I saw ep 8 and I must comment that Angelica seems to be having problems of being the pioneer artificial body user. Her conditioning left her unable to remember a lot of things, much to distress of her trainer, Marco who complained that all his work is wasted.
But it is clear which side she will be.
nuriel_xavier
2003-12-30, 18:29
great scott, people... this is anime, you really dont need to make lengthy, 'psychological' dissertations on it, just enjoy it like normal people (wow, im saying that, hehe) read a good book and dissert on that, or something. go to school...
anyway, not to be neutral or relativistic, but why exactly are thses guys 'evil?' is it because they dont fit your morals? not everyone who kills is evil. granted, you might not see 'good' reasons for these people to kill, but they do work for a (at least para-)government corp, and they are obeying orders, which dont seem to be against any rules or laws set up for them. we are supposed to obey authority, are we not, or all we all rebels and anarchs here? (in which case ill leave now, because yall are the most pathetic, weak, ineffective anarchs ive probably ever seen...)
anyway, i think thats what i meant to say, obviously yall'll post something if you dont understand, it is a forum... if i insulted you, i dont care, and sorry, at the same time (i have a very interesting personality. oh! there we go! yall could evaluate me! thatll keep you busy...), people need to be hurt, preferably often, to keep them from being soft and weak - worthless. wow, that probably ties in to your thread - evaluate it, please... jk...
oh, and stormy001_M1A2, trielas weapon is a winchester model 1897 trench. just so you know, since you got the models, etc. right for everyone else...
Go-lytely
2003-12-31, 00:05
I'm not sure I see her as the scariest, but I see potential in her to rebel against the CORP. To me Triela's the scariest, because she seemed to be the only one consciously accepted her role. Triela's more like that female ex-Russian spy to me, just another killer.
As for Claes not complaining, well, I don't think any of the girls ever complaint about anything, openly or privately. I think it's part of the conditioning. However, I do believe deep down that Claes do remember her big bro and what he told her, and she may act on it one day.
I didn't pickup Jan and Jose are brothers... gotta re-watch the earlier episodes again. :)
I dont think they are brothers. They arent even the same nationality. Jose is Italian, Jan (Jean) is French, Hilsyer (Hilshire) is German, Rab(v)allo was (Italian?) Marco was Russian.
Relentless
2003-12-31, 16:30
I dont think they are brothers. They arent even the same nationality. Jose is Italian, Jan (Jean) is French, Hilsyer (Hilshire) is German, Rab(v)allo was (Italian?) Marco was Russian.
In the first episode, when Jose and Jan are at the hospital and when they're planning the mission were Henrietta went berserk, Jose referred to Jan as "big brother". There're some other uses of the Japanese word for "brother" , for example, when a young kid speaks to an older man. Kinda weird if Jose used it in that sense, so I think they're indeed brothers. Maybe adopted or not blood-related to explain different hair color and names' nationality. I don't remember when it was said that Jan was French, either :confused:
The Faction's Lord
2003-12-31, 18:34
It's possible within families that two brothers can have different hair colour etc. Also, it's quite possible for brothers to be born in different places. I mean haven't you heard of moving?
Is Jose officially Italian? I don't remember anyone referring to his as such, but that could be just my memory.
And all the girls use compact pistols.
Relentless
2003-12-31, 20:34
Is Jose officially Italian? I don't remember anyone referring to his as such, but that could be just my memory.
"Officially" the only one whose nationality we know "for sure" is Hilsher's, just because Jose mentioned that he was a "serious German". Other than that, it's all speculation. BTW, people shouldn't be so attached to their pet theories, IMHO.
OTOH, ADV's manga translated Jose's name as Giuseppe, a common Italian name. Think of this what you want, it's not like it''s set in stone that Jose/Giuseppe is Italian. His Japanese is quite good, though :naughty:
And all the girls use compact pistols.
Question, are the pistols portrayed in accurate scale? I'd say a little girl's hand could barely wrap around the handle, even of a compact handgun, and those hands are very narrow. Yet in GSG girls' hands fit very well. Even using both hands, there should be still plenty of space to fit another pair of hands. Or are their weapons very custom-made, scaled down specifically for them :confused:
angelica
2004-01-14, 13:00
why did they stop subbing after 8 its great
Uhh, Japan has holidays, too... there was no Gunslinger Girl for the past two weeks.
brightman
2004-01-14, 13:05
And Fuji TV is releasing this series slowly (they haven't shown an episode in THREE weeks actually), with an average of less than three episodes a month... So yeah, Episode 9 will be aired on 1/15 (tomorrow).
why did they stop subbing after 8 its great
You are not the only country in the world where they do special TV programs reflecting on how 2003 was, pushing back regularly scheduled broadcasts.
How can you expect people to do fansubs overseas if Episode 9 hasn't even been aired on Japan yet (at least for an hour and half later)? Gunslinger Girl airs usually on Wednesdays at 27:30 JST (in your time standards, it would be written as Thursday 3:30AM JST)
brightman
2004-01-14, 13:11
How can you expect people to do fansubs overseas if Episode 9 hasn't even been aired on Japan yet until an hour and half later? Gunslinger Girl airs usually on Wednesdays at 27:30 JST (in your time standards, it would be written as Thursday 3:30AM JST)
Yeah, didn't notice the time... :heh: On the Fuji TV site it actually says 3:30 on Thursdays which is something I'm not used to seeing on Japanese sites.
angelica
2004-01-14, 13:18
You are not the only country in the world where they do special TV programs reflecting on how 2003 was, pushing back regularly scheduled broadcasts.
How can you expect people to do fansubs overseas if Episode 9 hasn't even been aired on Japan yet (at least for an hour and half later)? Gunslinger Girl airs usually on Wednesdays at 27:30 JST (in your time standards, it would be written as Thursday 3:30AM JST)
ya well it shouldnt have pushed the schedule back this far
Well, I'll tell you what, when you're running your own TV station you can choose when shows will be interrupted for the holidays.
NoSanninWa
2004-01-14, 16:22
This thread fulfills no purpose except to whinge about wanting new episodes and whine about broadcast schedules. Find a real topic.
Dark_Sun
2004-02-20, 22:53
well...i thought this was an awesome series but i wished there would be more.
I don't know why but...i think it would be better if Angelica died when watching the stars instead of falling asleep...it would be perfect!
She did die when watching the stars. All the things in the episode point to this, i think.
HK anime seeker
2004-02-21, 00:07
She did die when watching the stars. All the things in the episode point to this, i think.
Just wondering, has it ever occured that you can read a story book to a child and they will fall asleep? Well I'm just think in the positive way :) But truthly we don;t know if she died, its not official and its up to the viewer.
That's just wishful thinking. 99.99999999% chance she is dead, sorry to say.
Well, they could have been following the manga where, if I'm not wrong, she didn't die ...
There is a lot of evidence showing that she could have died, but you cannot proclaim it so soundly. It is quite possible they're just teasing us. Even if it's more likely she died... they could be giving a twist to it, for all you know!
Though she was gonna die soon anyway so :P
HK anime seeker
2004-02-21, 00:49
Well, they could have been following the manga where, if I'm not wrong, she didn't die ...
There is a lot of evidence showing that she could have died, but you cannot proclaim it so soundly. It is quite possible they're just teasing us. Even if it's more likely she died... they could be giving a twist to it, for all you know!
Though she was gonna die soon anyway so :P
Yeah you're right, in the magna she didn;t die and the anime is a very close repesentation of the the magna so I do believe that she didn;t die. I just hope they have an OVA or and Movie for in the future! Anyway to support GsG i'm going to ge the rest of the magnas and the DVD in Japan some how.
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-21, 02:28
Yeah you're right, in the magna she didn;t die and the anime is a very close repesentation of the the magna so I do believe that she didn;t die. I just hope they have an OVA or and Movie for in the future! Anyway to support GsG i'm going to ge the rest of the magnas and the DVD in Japan some how.
Well, I believe that Angelica is dead because that's what the whole series is all about in the end. Seriously.
Just wondering, has it ever occured that you can read a story book to a child and they will fall asleep? Well I'm just think in the positive way :) But truthly we don;t know if she died, its not official and its up to the viewer.
I guess you're right, but this is like saying that [COWBOY BEBOP SPOILER] Spike just fell asleep in the end of Bebop [END SPOILER].
If she didn't die, then I think the ending wouldn't be this good. The beauty of it is that Angelica finally gains Marco's affection in the end, and I can't think of any better way to go for her. Somehow I guess I'm thinking in the positive way too :)
Anlushac11
2004-02-21, 05:18
I thought Angelica died also because she didnt wake up when Marco called to her, and she was having memory problems like parts of her were starting to not function.
I also find it very sad that all of the girls will die soon. I mean they were in a situation where they were going to die anyways but it seems that they could have saved them instead of condemming them to death.
There had been talks in other threads of what will happen to the girls when their bodies grow and mature and they are full of cybernetic parts. Well now we know. They die.
And Triela was still my favorite
Damn, if I read the manga and I get to the part where Triela dies, I'm probably going to cry. Really.
Maybe not as much as *cough* the end of Seisouhen *cough*, but still... I find what was said in the last ep about her very true. She knows 3 langauges and comes up with Beethoven to raise spirits on a cold night... and she's such a nice girl, she didn't deserve to be a gitai.
I dunno - which do you think is better? Dying or being a gitai and then dying later? At least you're being useful to someone as a gitai, though I dunno about whether it's morally useful...
Edit: To avoid confusion, I don't think Triela has actually died yet in the manga. But I'm pretty sure they all will eventually. ;_; (If she doesn't I'll be singing Symphony No. 9. La la la la la la la la la la la la laaaa-la laa...)
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-21, 05:38
Damn, if I read the manga and I get to the part where Triela dies, I'm probably going to cry. Really.
Maybe not as much as *cough* the end of Seisouhen *cough*, but still... I find what was said in the last ep about her very true. She knows 3 langauges and comes up with Beethoven to raise spirits on a cold night... and she's such a nice girl, she didn't deserve to be a gitai.
I dunno - which do you think is better? Dying or being a gitai and then dying later? At least you're being useful to someone as a gitai, though I dunno about whether it's morally useful...
Edit: To avoid confusion, I don't think Triela has actually died yet in the manga. But I'm pretty sure they all will eventually. ;_; (If she doesn't I'll be singing Symphony No. 9. La la la la la la la la la la la la laaaa-la laa...)
It is either she become a lethal killer, well taken care off in welfare sense but short life expectancy bionic operator for Section 2 or she will be forced to act in those kiddie porn films in Armsterdam.(read the manga vol1)
Takes no brain to choose which is better for her.
Rico: Either she remain in bed forever, becoming a medical burden to her family or she is a marksperson for Section 2.
Angelica: Completely paralyzed because of your own parents try to kill you for insurance or become pioneer bionic operator for Section 2.
Claes: At least she got to read books again, instead of remaining in bed , hovering between life and death.
Henrietta: Victim of brutal rape, her uterus has to be removed plus some of her limbs have to amputated due to severe trauma by very brutal killer. Or have memory conditioned and rebulit body to be an unothrodox counter terrorist operator on behalf of Italian government.
As you can see, they don't have much option.
CompShrink
2004-02-21, 06:24
I agree with stormy. Thier fate may not be the best in life, but it's better than what it would have been if they weren't choosen by Section 2.
I think it was left open whether Angelica died or fell asleep. It apeared to me they were trying to imply she died. It makes a good ending to imply she dies, but leaves it open for more. I really hope there will be more.
I think Angelica dieing watching the stars with marco by her side is beatifull. In a funny way, it almost shows that there is another way for the girls. She didn? die in a field with a bullet through her brain like poor rejected Elsa did. She died at piece and reasonably free of pain. She died happy, and quietly, without excess trauma. Not on some cold, blood splatered ground somewhere. The fact the others have finally shown outward expressions of joy (with the singing etc) shows the gift of humanity they have won and I think that anges death is a nice counterpoint. This wouldn? work so well if she was just asleep, but the ambiguity really makes it something more again. It forces you to think on both sides. Beautifully done I must say.
Bindibadgi
2004-02-21, 07:38
Beautifully done I must say.
Been lurking for ages, but i cant help sign up and reply to a GsG thread :uhoh:
I have to totally agree, it was a beautiful ending; with the girls singing beethoven (which almost seemed like they were singing for Ange) all getting along, then Ange and Marco finally sorting it out. If they dont make another series then yes, she did die, however, if they do make another series i think we will see her back again ;) From a writers POV bringing her back from what people assumed is death by some sort of medical breakthrough with the conditioning medication (??) will make a lot of people watch it again imo (like they werent gonna anyway!), but itll be a nice twist and continuity thing.
On another note: Anyone know what the very last scene was between Henrietta and Jose was about? After the credits.
I had feared the ending was gonna either not go anywhere, or kill everyone off. Im glad they ended it the way they did.
LordBrian
2004-02-21, 16:14
On another note: Anyone know what the very last scene was between Henrietta and Jose was about? After the credits.Though I can't really find a picture to confirm my suspicions, I'm guessing that Jose and Henrietta are in Sicily, during the summer. This would be a reference to episode 11, where Jose promises Henrietta that they'll come back to Sicily many times, when the weather got better.
Edit: Oh, and to state the obvious, this also comes full circle with the initial scene in episode 1.
Dark_Sun
2004-02-21, 16:21
actually the very last clip is nothing....just a random clip..
that clip i think was also in the very beginning..
actually the very last clip is nothing....just a random clip..
that clip i think was also in the very beginning..
Yah, it is. I just ran both the first episode and the last episode side by side. It's exactly the same as the first scene. Except that Jose is narrating in the first episode (ANBU's translation says something like, "That is my sister")
Regarding whether or not Angelica died, if she did die, it would bring more closure in my opinion. However, if she didn't, then I agree that that would leave it open for a second season. Now, if indeed she did die, then I think that the ending was a rather "bitter-sweet" one. The scene shifts back and forth between the other girls singing happily and Angelica dying. It makes for an interesting contrast. But Angelica's death (assuming that she did die) is not necesarily that sad though. She and Marco finally made up.. I dunno.. There's still a lot open in my opinion. For example, when Henrietta was crying because she couldn't watch the stars with Jose, and then you never hear anything about it again. But that's just me.
KeishoumoriDei
2004-02-21, 22:18
Well, I personally think there are at least two ways to interpret that ending. You can either say that Ange died while listening to Marco's story, which is VERY beautiful, might I add, because she finally remembered all or some of what she lost from the conditioning. To have your memory back is sweet indeed.
Another way to interpret the ending is to say that she merely fell into a peaceful slumber, and will die later. That however, is less climatic, and since there are lots of evidence to support the original theory, this one is less likely, but still possible. Who knows? GsG as a whole was close to a masterpiece though, no matter how you interpret the ending.
There's some food for thought for you deep philisophical people.. heh
Relentless
2004-02-21, 23:59
IMHO, at the end, the series went full circle. Its theme was stated by Claes in the first episode: "Young fella, enjoy your youth" (as per ANBU's translation). Those girls suffered terrible things after and before joining that damn Corporation, but they should still be able to find joy, happiness and comradery, even if it's just temporary. Of course, it began with stargazing, and ended with stargazin, too.
Secondary theme would be that, no matter what happens, what you do or become, nobody can steal your humanity.
Count me in among those who think Ange is dead. At least, she died peacifully and with Marco at her side. You can't use the manga to prove she's still alive because most of this episode happens early in the manga. The animators changed the order. Ange's story is told later and she's, naturally, alive.
I still want to know what happens to the remaining girls (althought it probably will left me scarred for life). Nevertheles, I'm happy I got to see animated this, my favorite story from the manga. It was very nice to see a story without violence (but still, death was present). However, I'm a bit peeved because
1) They didn't show Triela visiting Angelica
2) We didn't hear all the girls actually singing
Who else thinks it was nicely ironic that a hymn about joy as a most exalted feeling that shoud embrace all mankind as brothers is sung by a group of remorseless, merciless killers? That a hymn originally about liberty and freedom instead of joy, is sung by a group of brainwashed, conditioned creatures being manipulated like puppets by their supervisors using the unbreakable strings of honest and sincere love?
With the rather open final, I can be in perpetual self-denial, telling myself that the girls didn't meet their sad ends, that they continue living and finding laughter and bright days whenever is possible. They will never die, rather, they'll sail into the sunset like the legends of ancient times.
Yes, I'm very moved by the story of those poor girls who, in any other circunstances, would have become wonderfully nice people. I still want to think their souls remain pure and unsullied, even if their hands are red in blood.
Well, it was one hell of ride, one of my most favorite Anime of all times, a class on itself with their design, music and setting. So full of unforgettable moments and memorable characters.
Triela will live forever, at least in my memories she will.
HK anime seeker
2004-02-22, 00:06
Very well said.
FlyByNite
2004-02-22, 00:54
I hope there's a second season in the works, it's such a beautifully done show. Although it can be quite melancholy at times. I loved it a lot.
As for Angelica. I would have to say she died, atleast that's what I got from her seeing all those stars shooting across the sky at the same time. When we cut back to the other girls they didn't see anything like that, so I just assumed it was something Angelica was seeing right before death.
Okay, whoever said that Ange wasn't going to die, she looked pretty dead to me. She did not respond when Marco called her.
I thought the ending (if it is the ending) was fairly mediocre. It was kinda cute to see the girls actually having fun for once and hanging out with each other, and Marco to stop scape-goating Angelica and actually comfort her before she died. But I guess I was expecting it to end with a bang...
CelestiaLegends
2004-02-22, 05:21
Thats as bang as it gets I'm afraid :P the series created a very strong mood all the way through, and I think the ending was very fitting. If she died. Which I believe she did :p
But I guess I was expecting it to end with a bang...The series wasn't about Action or Guns or even Bio-technology. It was all about feelings of young girls and the love for their instructors. So I think they did a pretty good end to the anime. In addition, it's an opened end which means you can imagine what you want. Every thing is possible and will not necessary be develop in a GsG 2 series.
dreamless
2004-02-22, 06:59
I don't quite understand/remember why they have to make Triela into a getai, is she mortally wounded in the rescue or something?
HK anime seeker
2004-02-22, 08:30
I'll like a movie for Gsg and maybe an ova. Well the animeation for the series is already OVA quality :) If they come with a second season they would have to come up with a new idea other then the girls feelings for the brothers. Maybe the final months before the expire. But if they do make a second season we'll all want it to be a just as, and if not better then the first season!
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-22, 09:22
I don't quite understand/remember why they have to make Triela into a getai, is she mortally wounded in the rescue or something?
Section 2 rescued her from child porn ring in Armsterdam. Read the manga volume 1, she said it bluntly.
Section 2 rescued her from child porn ring in Armsterdam. Read the manga volume 1, she said it bluntly.still she has her uterus !
Bindibadgi
2004-02-22, 10:34
still she has her uterus !
what's that got todo with it?
dreamless
2004-02-22, 11:02
Section 2 rescued her from child porn ring in Armsterdam. Read the manga volume 1, she said it bluntly.
what's that to do with turning her into a getai? was she badly hurt or something? The other girls don't have much choice because their poor physical condition, they'll die or have great trauma or bed-ridden for the entire life if not changed into getai. But what about Triela? what was her condition when she was rescued? I guess she didn't have much mental trauma since her memory was not wiped, that's why I wonder if she was mortally wounded.
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-22, 12:40
what's that to do with turning her into a getai? was she badly hurt or something? The other girls don't have much choice because their poor physical condition, they'll die or have great trauma or bed-ridden for the entire life if not changed into getai. But what about Triela? what was her condition when she was rescued? I guess she didn't have much mental trauma since her memory was not wiped, that's why I wonder if she was mortally wounded.
She never said what happened to her before she join Section 2 or forgotten (ie: brainwashed) all about it. She has no family or any home prior to the Armsterdam, I can safely speculate that she is sold into the child sex industry there. I am sure she is more than willing to join another life in Section 2.
The fact she almost or did end up in padeophile film is bad enough for severe mental trauma trigger. What makes you think that she did not have much mental trauma being gangpressed into a child porno flick?
hum it's insane. I think.
LordBrian
2004-02-22, 13:41
actually the very last clip is nothing....just a random clip..
that clip i think was also in the very beginning..
So much for trying to put some thought into what the show was trying to say. Could you explain a little more why you think the very last scene in ep13 was completely meaningless and random? Do you really believe that they had 30 seconds to waste, and didn't know what else to fill it up with?
Dark_Sun
2004-02-22, 14:10
Section 2 rescued her from child porn ring in Armsterdam. Read the manga volume 1, she said it bluntly.
*cough cough* O.O okay can't even imagine that.
yes, the very last scene is the very first as well.
My 2 cents : maybe they wanted to say it's just a loop. Even if things happened to the girls, their situation is just the same right now.
The timeline is really complicated in that series. So, it's hard to know the events in the right chronological order. Maybe Angelica fell asleep before Henrietta went bersek in ep. 1? Maybe they wanted to explain why angelica was getting mad. I don't remember seeing Ange in ep. 1 & 2. Do you?
Dark_Sun
2004-02-22, 14:12
So much for trying to put some thought into what the show was trying to say. Could you explain a little more why you think the very last scene in ep13 was completely meaningless and random? Do you really believe that they had 30 seconds to waste, and didn't know what else to fill it up with?
in my opinion....i think an opening clip would fit into a ending clip you know? just to show that the story was closing. kinda hard to explain what im thinking
Dark_Sun
2004-02-22, 14:13
yes, the very last scene is the very first as well.
My 2 cents : maybe they wanted to say it's just a loop. Even if things happened to the girls, their situation is just the same right now.
The timeline is really complicated in that series. So, it's hard to know the events in the right chronological order. Maybe Angelica fell asleep before Henrietta went bersek in ep. 1? Maybe they wanted to explain why angelica was getting mad. I don't remember seeing Ange in ep. 1 & 2. Do you?
nono...if she "died" before the first episode...than why didn't henrietta know who she was in the wheelchair? which was after the beserk
EDIT: wait...was that Claes?
I supposed now, after reading the responses, it only seems logical that she died. It's only way it could bring the show to a close at all. The only thing is that I would have liked to see the dog do more than just bark for her. He did bring it all the way back to the hospital. Oh, and a stronger reaction from Marco would have been nice, but since he never showed much emotion anyway, it was alright.
I personally would really like to see something else come from the show. Maybe even a second series. Who knows. I kinda feel the way I did after Cowboy Bebop, although it wasn't the main character who died in GsG.
Kurama no Miko2003
2004-02-22, 16:22
I think Angelica did die at the end. They kept on showing the light reflection in her eyes dimming as they flashed back and forth between the scenes. Right at the end when she closed her eyes, it was just about gone. I interpreted that as a sign that she died. *sob* I thought the ending was appropriate for the series; it went well with the mood that was presented overall. I don't really think an OVA/movie/second series is necessary for GsG. In an odd way, I thought it was complete just as it is.
~ Kurama no Miko2003
nono...if she "died" before the first episode...than why didn't henrietta know who she was in the wheelchair? which was after the beserk
EDIT: wait...was that Claes?No, you are victim of one of the flashback. As I said, the time line is confusing every one here.
When José and Henrietta meet Angelica (it's indeed Angelica) (ep.2 - 9min20sec), this scene is when Henrietta was still in her training days. You can guess that by the marine uniform she is wearing which is the same than when she was using her gun for the first time.
So, it's not at the same period.
Bubblemunche
2004-02-22, 21:08
Since we're on the subject, here's a post i made on another thread on what i think about the ending :) :
<<Alright, finished the last episode this morning and there's this part that puzzles me to no end: After the ending credits rolled, we're shown a scene whereby Henrietta strolled after Jose in a morning walk. Pardon me but isn't that the very first scene back in episode 1, the one afterwhich Henrietta went berserk and got her right shoulder injured in that operation?
My theory is this: the main part of Episode 1 and 2 (save for those parts that explained how Henrietta first got 'recruited' into Section 2) actually takes place AFTER Episode 3-13 :P!! Hmm, sounds a bit far-fletched, so here's my reasons to support this theory :
1) The key reason which forms the basis for this theory, lies on the fact that Getais start losing ther memories after severe 'wear-and-tear', especially when they are approaching the end of their 'shelf-life' Take a look back at epi2, when Henrietta asked Jose why she was invited to the star-gazing session when she never seen stars before. Jose was at lost for words for a while before managing a weak answer. Now if you would apply my theory, Jose had every reason to be stunned coz they just had a star-gazing session not too long ago (ie at the end of epi13)...
2) Again in epi2: When Jose passed Henrietta her red coat after asking her to the rooftop, she took a really long look at the coat before wearing it. Maybe it's just me but it seems to suggest that she finds the coat familiar, but just cant remember where she saw it before. And applying my theory again, it would be possible that she simply lost the memory of her being the owner of the coat, but finds it familiar coz she's been wearing it right from epi3-13!
Alrite, enuff of my rubbish. Do take note that I've NOT read the original manga works before, so the above is purely just my conjecture >>
Kekeke... On another note, it would really be nice if they do decide on a Season 2... I mean, there's so many questions left unanswered at the end of the series!! E.g. More details on Triela's past, the 'brotherly' relationship between Jan and Jose...
Even if there is no sequel, this had been a great time. GSG has been a great series, no doubt about it ;)
dreamless
2004-02-22, 22:46
She never said what happened to her before she join Section 2 or forgotten (ie: brainwashed) all about it. She has no family or any home prior to the Armsterdam, I can safely speculate that she is sold into the child sex industry there. I am sure she is more than willing to join another life in Section 2.
The fact she almost or did end up in padeophile film is bad enough for severe mental trauma trigger. What makes you think that she did not have much mental trauma being gangpressed into a child porno flick?I think in one episodes she said she remembers her past, at least she know she was kidnapped and sold to Armsterdam. It's quite different from Henrietta who got her memories wiped. That why I think she didn't have much mental trauma as if that's the case she will surely have a memory wipe.
About the timeline... I'm also quite confused. and I heard even reading the manga would not help much since the anime has modified many things in the manga, many even the timeline...
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-22, 23:38
The manga storytelling is fractured, which the anime tried to address.
USCPharmacist
2004-02-23, 01:57
Great serie, but I think is too short. At least they should explain more about section 2 and the five republics. Anyway if they were gonna make 2nd season what do you think will happen, or what would you want to see and not want to see?
Possible scenerios
1. The artemis story, Heni shot jose by accident or something and she goes berserk (eva style) and rico has to put her down....nasty
2. Triela reaching puberty and starting to grow, thus giving problem to her carbon frame...need some growth suppressin quick
3. With all the books she is secretly reading, Claes find a way to escape the control of conditioning. She tries to help all the girls to escape but rico has other idea... (I never really trust Rico cuz she mess up...)
4. Section 1 attack section 2 End of Eva style....not likely to happen though heheh
5. More fight between the five republic and section 2.
6. Section 2 fighting Al Queda j/k
7. Someone sacrefied his or herself so that the other can live/escape...candidate would be triela dying in gory, or henrietta protecting jose (I don't really want to see this episode...)
8. Newer version of cyborgs are available (Petra maybe), so the brass want to "retire" the older version (to extract the carbon frame maybe?), Jose found out and well you fill in the rest.
9. Or something completely different....
Thing I want to see.
1.Gunslinger Girls paint ball match with Petra (new cyborg) pwning everybody hehe...go for the eyes boo, go for the eyes
2. Ange lives!!!!
3. Gay (happy) ending, call me a sucker for this but don't you want to see them happy?
4. HOT SPRING EPISODE j/k
5. BEACH EPISODE.....
6. Bonta Kun
7. See triela collect all 62 bears after agustus
8. A way to extent the cyborg life
9. Cyborg fight, I know is cruel but human opponent are just cannon fodded heheh, Don't think it will happen though, unless the girl fight amoung themselves or the republic has the own cyborg lol stolen from Russion Lab heheh
Thing I don't want to see...
1.Henrietta remember what happen the night she was [censor] and [censor].
Although it might be interesting to see her gone berserk on her family killer/killers who happen to be someone important for section 2 and she disobey Jose instruction.....naw I still don't want here to remember anything that night
2.Panty shots, becuase the show is popular...you know those f-up execs
3.shojo ai or that Clamp picked up the series
4.Gunslinger girl fumoffu!!! I can see the surprise of people when they watch the first season after watching the "second" season hahahhaha
Teacher: let me introduce to you this new exchange student from Italy, Henrietta, and her gardian Jose san. Say hello to Henrietta class.
Some dumb kid proceeds to throw an eraser at Jose....
Henrietta:IS P-90 TIME!!!
5. Godzilla attacks Italy
6. Angels attack Italy
7. Dolems attack Italy
8. yaoi
9. Terminator attack section 2
10. More A-holes like Jean, I think I'll break some TV screen
11. Open ending, unless the second season is just as godly as the first and there is gonna be a third season
12. then again I don't want ever here Henrietta say:"behold my true power!!Holy Roman Catholic Church Crisis Make Up!!!" as she proceed to fight an Alien Space God Giant Robot enemy from a future Earth Colony in space during the 22nd season 10 years from now. And that every third female character in Diablo 13 will be name Harrieda or herryedder or henrietta256 or Pwnzor...
Anyway what do you guys think?
Also I have seen some of the game graphic and I was not too impress . The game appear to be MGS like and feature 3d or 1st person shooting. There is a few shots of the Italy locales, and a few screen shots of our belove Henrietta holding a pistal (howcome no p-90?). Not sure if it is any good or just a hack job but since it is a bandai game.....shudder...
If it was popular enough and if the tankoubons progresses to allow more anime stories to be produced, then yes - a possible second season.
USCPharmacist
2004-02-23, 02:44
Wow I couldn't believe that a mediocre series like jubei chan has a second series!!! That really give me hopes that this show will have a 2nd series. Though I fear that it will be a hack job and the producer knows it and start puting fan service after fan service and started to forget that the girls aren't suppose to grow boobs....
Hm...I'm thinking about merging this thread with this thread Gunslinger Girl Discussion (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=305). What do you folks think.
Wow I couldn't believe that a mediocre series like jubei chan has a second series!!! That really give me hopes that this show will have a 2nd series. Though I fear that it will be a hack job and the producer knows it and start puting fan service after fan service and started to forget that the girls aren't suppose to grow boobs....
I wouldn't worry about that. Mr. Hamano of FujiTV is a well respected producer who only does "serious" shows.
And the director, Mr. Asaka Morio is a well-known director who knows how to portray children intertwined with love/action stories. He is after all, the person who directed the Cardcaptor Sakura Movies.
And to further save your anxiety, the anime is done by MADHOUSE - a very respected high-quality anime company that does not need "fanservice" to grab attention.
The only attention that may stem is that this manga is serialized on a very moe~ centered magazine called "Monthly Dengeki Daioh." But I wouldn't worry as the manga artist, Mr. Aida Yu (though he did character designs for "BITTERSWEET FOOLS") is a well known doujin illustrator who did very intriguing illustration books in portraying cute girls in serious situations.
Hence, I would not worry about the second series degrading to your levels of anxieties.
Bubblemunche
2004-02-23, 03:04
[QUOTE=USCPharmacist]
4.Gunslinger girl fumoffu!!! I can see the surprise of people when they watch the first season after watching the "second" season hahahhaha
Teacher: let me introduce to you this new exchange student from Italy, Henrietta, and her gardian Jose san. Say hello to Henrietta class.
Some dumb kid proceeds to throw an eraser at Jose....
Henrietta:IS P-90 TIME!!!
QUOTE]
I loved FMPF, but i think I'll freak out if they gave the same treatment to GSG Season2 :P!! Way weird, i guess.... But your post sure was funny :D!
The only thing I'm wondering is: What was Jose up to? Something must be up.
Big long rant of me trying to come to terms with the show:
Considering the amazing medical and technilogical abilities of the corporation I'd find it hard to believe that they couldn't find a way to keep the girls from dying so unnaturally young. Possibly a complete elimination of all side effects (like the memory loss) all together. I'm sure it all isn't very cheap, and for the girls to only be usable for a few years seems a bit of a waste, at least that is a way Section One could spin it. The future of Section 2 depends on the girls, and they don't seem to have a very consistent flow of "new recruites".
Evenso, what would happen if the girls were allowed to grow up? Would they keep fighting terrorists forever? Take up positions within the department? Turn on them? Perhaps it's more convenient for Section 2 to have them expire once they become less useful, but many people there seem to have an acutal conscience, so if they could save the girls, I think they would.
I mean, the manga is still going on, right? Will it just go on until the girls slowly die one by one? Or end at some fitting moment, leaving you with a feeling like the end of the series (aw, how bittersweet, nice to see the girls happy, too bad they will ALL BE DEAD IN A COUPLE YEARS). In that case the story is basically about a group giving little girls on the verge of death a few more years to live in exchange for their soul (ideally), but the girls's humanity struggles through, making it all the more tragic when they do die.
/sigh, guess I'm just looking for my happy ending. I mean, it has to have some sort of redeeming quality in the end... It just kinda feels that the story, in its structure and nothing being resolved at the end, kinda equates to say any other episodic show, like say Rugrats or the Simpsons. And while many episodic series can be done well and good (or be dragged way past its due date, being squeezed for every penny it's worth by producers), I prefer more concise, smaller, series that revolve around a specific story (like Last Exile), shows that start with a story and see it to the end in a mostly direct maner.
Is there a point to it all?! Besides that people's humanity can survive the most adverse conditions, and that we should all be grateful we arn't those girls.
Hm...I'm thinking about merging this thread with this thread Gunslinger Girl Discussion (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=305). What do you folks think.
The other thread is huge. I think just to have a smaller thread solely focused on the ending is good, without the whole archive of all other stuff that is, well, big and cluttered up..
Also, people who haven't finished watching teh whole series would read that thing and we'd have to put spoiler tags, but here we don't have to.
Two GSG threads does not really hurt for now... it'll die down in the end and I think nobody will have to worry. The other thread really IS huge enough... but bah... whatever.
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-23, 05:06
The only thing I'm wondering is: What was Jose up to? Something must be up.
Big long rant of me trying to come to terms with the show:
Considering the amazing medical and technilogical abilities of the corporation I'd find it hard to believe that they couldn't find a way to keep the girls from dying so unnaturally young. Possibly a complete elimination of all side effects (like the memory loss) all together. I'm sure it all isn't very cheap, and for the girls to only be usable for a few years seems a bit of a waste, at least that is a way Section One could spin it. The future of Section 2 depends on the girls, and they don't seem to have a very consistent flow of "new recruites".
Evenso, what would happen if the girls were allowed to grow up? Would they keep fighting terrorists forever? Take up positions within the department? Turn on them? Perhaps it's more convenient for Section 2 to have them expire once they become less useful, but many people there seem to have an acutal conscience, so if they could save the girls, I think they would.
I mean, the manga is still going on, right? Will it just go on until the girls slowly die one by one? Or end at some fitting moment, leaving you with a feeling like the end of the series (aw, how bittersweet, nice to see the girls happy, too bad they will ALL BE DEAD IN A COUPLE YEARS). In that case the story is basically about a group giving little girls on the verge of death a few more years to live in exchange for their soul (ideally), but the girls's humanity struggles through, making it all the more tragic when they do die.
/sigh, guess I'm just looking for my happy ending. I mean, it has to have some sort of redeeming quality in the end... It just kinda feels that the story, in its structure and nothing being resolved at the end, kinda equates to say any other episodic show, like say Rugrats or the Simpsons. And while many episodic series can be done well and good (or be dragged way past its due date, being squeezed for every penny it's worth by producers), I prefer more concise, smaller, series that revolve around a specific story (like Last Exile), shows that start with a story and see it to the end in a mostly direct maner.
Is there a point to it all?! Besides that people's humanity can survive the most adverse conditions, and that we should all be grateful we arn't those girls.
You think too much and I also suspected you are too used to happy endings.
arghh...
i like this serie, hope it will have 2nd season which more into plot developing.
the last episode spoiled my Henrietta..... she emotion towards Jose is too annoying, than Elsa
Angelica died? still can't believe it
dreamless
2004-02-23, 13:00
hey, the sequel to Gunslinger Girl is called Ghost in the Shell... j/k
about the ending, I think this is very natural one, thus a very good one. I don't think series like Gunslinger Girl goes well with some unnatural "save the world", "fight for freedom" etc. etc. endings. It's just like real world, you don't get to eliminate your opposition completely or solve every problem in the world with a handful super agents, besides the Republican problem has some very deep political and social roots it's not like you can just go out and kill some "big evil heads" and everything okay.
One thing I want to see if there's a second season is that they should put more emphasis on the background of some instructors, like Jan and Jose, and those other workers in Section 2.
LordBrian
2004-02-23, 13:38
One thing I want to see if there's a second season is that they should put more emphasis on the background of some instructors, like Jan and Jose, and those other workers in Section 2.
But then it would have to be called Gunslinger Boy, and that's just not as appealing. ;)
USCPharmacist
2004-02-24, 02:18
I remember somewhere in the other GSG thread there is a picture of Gunslinger Girl Daioh hheehhe. I really like those 4 frames comic that make fun of serious show, like those EVA 4 frames, they were classic man. Anyway I wonder if any one know if that picture is the cover of the real thing or just a fake picture?
[Conditioning]
One day Henrietta and Jose were walking home they passed by an expensive clothing shop.
Henrietta:"Ooo I like that red dress."
Jose:"Now, look Heni we are on a budget this mouth after you bought all those camera films with my credit card..."
Henrietta then whipped out her gun and pointed it at her eye and whisper softly:"I wonder what Elsa saw before she shot herself."
Jose:"............................ er.. want to see if they have your size."
The next day the fratello were walking home again and they passed by an expensive shoe store.
Henrietta:"Those red shoes will fit my dress."
Jose:"Ok, no more, I am already eating cup of noodle everyday....so...er.."
Henrietta then sat on the ground and withdraw herself into a ball looking really sad and whisper the following:"I wonder what it is like to be growing up, falling in love, marrying that person, buy a house and have a family....but that's not meant to be for me. I just hope that the lead doesnt hurt too much when my time comes...."
Jose:"OK ONE PAIR, ONE PAIR YOU HEAR!!"
You think too much and I also suspected you are too used to happy endings.think to much...
thanks for the constructive input!
but naw, I'd think I'm more used to sadder endings, tho I like happy endings. Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion... do I really need to go down a list? What I am used to, though, is some sort of resolution, and it doesn't even have to much of a resolution, it just has to give off that feeling to some minimal but existing degree. Like the ending of Deep Space Nine, it created a bunch of loose threads just in the very last episode, but I still felt a great deal of resolution.
I think it's because the characters went through a whole developement thing and did resolve whatever dilema they were facing throughout the show, and so, while it wasn't the ending of their story, it was the end of that particular chapter.
Off hand, I can't think of any show that didn't leave things feeling resolved at least to some point, except for the many soap opera series that go on and on...
I much more enjoy a complete storyline, like, say, Evangelion, more than an episodic series like, say, Seinfield. Is Gunslinger Girl just Seinfield with little girls and guns?
OKAY I GOT IT. I don't know if anyone saw this eposide of Star Trek: Voyager here, or ever even watched the series in the first place, but in one episode the story was about the ship, but it was actually some sort of copy of the ship, created by this sentient metalic liquid type being... god I'm describing this terribly.
Anyway, in the end, everyone dies and no one ever knew about them. But still, even THAT had resolution. The stuff didn't go down without a fight, they were full of emotion, it was tragic.
The thing that is ruffling my feathers so much is that the girls just accept their doom, and a story needs conflict. Now in several parts you had the beginnings of this conflict, that is, the identification of it. Henrietta struggling with the idea of just being an ordinary girl, their willingness to die (they don't want to die, but since death doesn't seem to be breathing down their necks they arn't doing anything to stop it), the brothers unhappiness with the whole situation...
I hope the manga continues to build upon this and doesn't just end on the same note as the series.
Edit: eheh, sorry, got rid of the meteor blowing up earth example~ that Voyager ep really covers that. Such a good episode
USCPharmacist
2004-02-24, 03:38
kaboom! and the age of Cockroaches begin!!!
But things ARE resolved. Just that they're less tangable, more psychological things. The show is about the girls struggles as "artificial" to retain their "realness" (ok, bad explanation). But as I said before - the joy they express over the simple event of a meteor shower, and the fact that we see them genuinely and expressively happy for the first time. THis is a resolution. We see they are finally able to be little girls, even if only for a moment. THey are gaining understanding from their controllers as something more than tools. A lot is going on, its just presented in a way that makes it so you really have to think about the series as a whole to see it. THats what makes it good, the fact that the story is left for the audience to conclude in their minds according to how they saw the anime. There is no "oh, I didn't think it should end that way - thats so out of character" because the end is as much determined by the viewers understanding as it is by the script. This is why it works. They play with our emotions verry well.
dreamless
2004-02-24, 07:07
the way how they are happy is really... sad... like Henrietta losing her sense of taste... but they can still make fun of the matter and be happy... how the happiness and sadness in this show are weaved together is why I love the feel I guess...
I think we are all happy that it's a sad story and ends like a sad story with death, lonelyness, singing & no future.
Nostalgia of that anime is also part of the way I like it. I listen the soundtrack with the excellent "The Light Before We Land" by the unknown group, the Delgados. And all the other musical arrangements of the soundtrack. This sadness and nostalgia is wonderful to me.
The show is about the girls struggles as "artificial" to retain their "realness" (ok, bad explanation). Ok, I see your point. I guess I have the same problem with the ending as I had with Cold Mountain, that is, my focus didn't fit the intended focus of the show. But now that I see your point of view the ending has been redeemed for me.
Still, I'm not completely happy with it because... :)
The girls humanity pops up here and there throughout the series, that's what really tugs at your heart. But I never got the feeling that it was the "main" problem, that their humanity was in danger of vanishing. What I felt was the focus of the show was the growing inability for them to continue to live as both little girls and rutheless killing machines.
Now, thinking about the earlier episodes, I guess their humanity existing was the main focus, but that focus shifted in the later bunch. In the earlier episodes we were just getting to know them, so the question of if they were still themselves existed, but through the show we saw that it did, despite everything. The last episode just reinforced this, however, it didn't (well of course it didn't, the story goes on in the manga) resolve the problem I felt became the main conflict.
um, Cold Mountain spoilers if you havn't seen it...
In Cold Mountain, I had a problem with the ending too, because I felt the focus was on the guy (can you blame me? there's a lot leading you feel that way), and then he dies for what I felt were pretty stupid reasons. (I mean common he kills everyone and then decides to be merciful on the son?)
Actually, if you focused on the girl, then the ending might have been better.
As it was, if you focused on the guy, then he dies at the end, and him having a daughter is supposed to make it all ok? He loses! He might as well have had died at the beginning, it would have made no difference to him at all, because he still would have died and lost his girl. I doubt his last thoughts were "man, this sucks I'm gonna die, at least I had sex with her, I can die happy now" no no no!
But if you focus on the girl, and focus on her developement (I think she really grew more than he did throughout the story), but I felt in the way the movie was set, her story played second fiddle to his story, and so I was dissapointed that "my hero" loses at the end with nothing to show for it, and so I had nothing to show for it, and so I felt cheated outa mah money.
ohay, so I'm browsing and I find this http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=845&PHPSESSID=5dc16e52cc8e981d951eb9b811d63728
pretty much sums up what I don't like, tho I don't feel as harshly toward it I don't think
I just really really hope that the manga does something, wasn't the 3rd one just released? neone read it?
stormy001_M1A2
2004-02-25, 01:59
The GSG manga is pretty the same concept as anime, except it is more action packed later.
dreamless
2004-02-25, 05:29
I think the GSG series never even has the concepts of "winning" or "losing". On one hand, all the girls "win" because they are saved from tragic experiences and can live happily when they live, on the other hand they all "lose" for their shortened lifespan and noone treat them like normal humans. Well, think it this way, do you want to live two happy days or two hundred years of continuous suffering?
HK anime seeker
2004-02-25, 09:14
Now that we have to wait for the second season (Still whishing!) what is aired on thursday now?
Shadow Hunter
2004-02-25, 12:16
Is the manga called gunslinger girl as well?
Is the manga called gunslinger girl as well?
Yes. There are currently two volumes out, and is done by artist/illustrator Mr. Aida Yu.
Bindibadgi
2004-02-25, 14:29
Yes. There are currently two volumes out, and is done by artist/illustrator Mr. Aida Yu.
In the UK?? ADV had only 1 out last time i checked :eek: /me runs down to forbidden planet
edit: yup just one done by ADVmanga so far.
Dark_Sun
2004-02-26, 00:43
whoa..doesnt it kinda seem the manga is going faster than the anime?
Bullsquat
2004-02-26, 01:23
I just wanna say that I've seen Gunslinger Girl in its entirety. It was a memorable experience.
In the UK?? ADV had only 1 out last time i checked :eek: /me runs down to forbidden planet
edit: yup just one done by ADVmanga so far.
I live in Japan. I have no idea what is out in your country.
dreamless
2004-02-26, 01:58
whoa..doesnt it kinda seem the manga is going faster than the anime?
since the anime is based on the manga, isn't it natural for the manga going faster than the anime?
Bindibadgi
2004-02-26, 04:02
I live in Japan. I have no idea what is out in your country.
ah yes, righto.
GSG vol 3 came out today (Feb 27).
I remember somewhere in the other GSG thread there is a picture of Gunslinger Girl Daioh hheehhe. I really like those 4 frames comic that make fun of serious show, like those EVA 4 frames, they were classic man. Anyway I wonder if any one know if that picture is the cover of the real thing or just a fake picture?It's a real comic, it was posted to 4chan.
USCPharmacist
2004-02-26, 23:02
If it is real, do any of you know where I can get a scanlation? and what is 4chan anyway? thx man
BTW, I wonder if any of you will get the game (is a bandai game so....hehe) would you be kind enough to tell us if is good or not. Since I live in US I'll pobably never play it.
SilverLeafTree
2004-03-01, 22:12
I'm afraid this may be too late to incite any discussion, but I'm here with my two cents and hopefully somebody will find out something new.
In my opinion the ending to Gunslinger Girls was beautiful. Angelica's death was one of the most elegant anime endings ever. Although the tone of the 13th episode is mildly inconsistent with the rest of the anime(no wicked action scenes, for one), it really leaves with a satisfying impression with a complex message.
I think that the The futility of the girl's life is especially exemplified in this episode.
A symbolic analogy can be made between shooting stars and the gunslinger girls. A shooting star's brightness (and importance) is transitory much like the girls' short life. However, in the short time they do exist, the leave a lasting impression upon our hearts.
The lights of Rome impede the viewer's ability to see the shooting stars. This is similar to how society's dark side impedes the viewer from seeing the humanity of the girls(shooting stars). We are unable to connect to the girl's human aspects when they are raiding terrorist hideouts or shooting up corrupt police. By moving away from the lights of Rome, we are finally able to see the shooting stars with more clarity (as well as enlightened by the girls' very human traits and emotions). The supervising adult takes note of this as well.
An interesting note is the line "We have better eyes than the average person." Does this imply that the girls are actually more sensitive to human emotions than the average person? It may be possible - their connection to the trainers is very strong. It trumps friendship, love, marriage - and it will even tolerate no love in return (though to a limited degree).
The ending is open-ended, but there is no better place to stop it than now. Gunslinger Girls focused more on characters and setting rather than plot to tell the story. The loopback to the first episode shows that their lifestyle is repetitive(the plot is good, but by no means surprising after you watch a few episodes). What the series excels in is with the fully fleshed-out characters and the "slice of life" storytelling from the girls' unique viewpoints. In this way, it does exactly what it sets out to and creates a wonderfully melancholy anime.
This reminds me a lot of the Avenger ending, another equally great series with a multilayered ending.
Desparado
2004-10-15, 06:18
ok i loved this manga. not alot of it is out in the us yet but what i've seen i liked alot. i ended up going looking for the anime and bout the first two volumes of the fansub. its great. i love it. that little p90 looks so big when that little girl hold it. the put so much detail into it. its grea.
Closing this secondary thread. Please use the main Gunslinger Girl (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=305) thread found in this forum (and please remember it's licensed so no discussion of fanubs or scnalations).
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