Learning Japanese

[Mystique]

Then those overuses of desu is it grammatically wrong in many cases?
Just chalk it down to overly zealous anime otaku and leave it there.
It's more a 'trend' thing, than anything serious as part of learning Japanese, so no need to worry too much.
As for why its more 'moe', you'd need to ask any moe experts about how this 'desudesu' trend came out in the first place.
2. A huge 4chan meme that sorta went on to other sites. Suiseiseki, a character from the anime/manga Rozen Maiden, are nearly always mentioned. It usually is in motivational posters with Suiseiseki.
Think its died down now, though (thank goodness)...

edit:
This is a better definition, cause it's exactly how I felt when i saw pple writing this about
"Desu" is the sound made by pwning. Conversely, by repeating "desu," you will have pwned your opponent(s), even if you already lost according to Godwin's Law.
lol pwned desu desu desu desu desu

The one word that every real Japanese person will go insane if you keep on saying it to them, mainly standing for 'it is' to go at the end of a sentence became a big meme of annoying weaboo or otaku.
So yeah, forget about it. :p

[Terrestrial Dream]

Just chalk it down to overly zealous anime otaku and leave it there.
It's more a 'trend' thing, than anything serious as part of learning Japanese, so no need to worry too much.
As for why its more 'moe', you'd need to ask any moe experts about how this 'desudesu' trend came out in the first place.

Think its died down now, though (thank goodness)... Ah, thanks. And I agree that thank god it died down.

[Kudryavka]

How do you pronounce "Shirow"? しろか、しろうか、しろおか？

[ditn]

So i have just finished memorizing hiragana and i am starting with katakana.
Before i start with katakana I have a couple questions/statements:

*So if i understand correct everything written in Kanji can also be written in hiragana ?
Say i write my sentences fully in hiragana people would be able to read and understand them.
But people will always write the parts they know in Kanji and then add hiragana/katakana for the parts they don't know(or doens(t excist in Kanji)?

*how do you know when to write a part in hiragana or katakana,
like if i want to write ari gato part.

[nikorai]

ditn
So if i understand correct everything written in Kanji can also be written in hiragana
It can be understood if written fully in hiragana but that depends on the sentence. For example, I don't recommend writing something like this

にわの庭には二羽の鶏は鰐を食べた。
(that's a tongue-twister)

in hiragana.

katakana
Katakana is for loanwords or slang or for emphasizing.
Better stick with hiragana if it's a normal word like ありがとう。Just learn words and you'll memorize kanji and kana automatically. No special training is needed.

[Mystique]

How do you pronounce "Shirow"? しろか、しろうか、しろおか？
This is romaji is evil. Give us the meaning (or context) and we'll let you know as it could be the 2nd or 3rd option.
ditn
Katakana is for loanwords or slang or for emphasizing.
Better stick with hiragana if it's a normal word like ありがとう。Just learn words and you'll memorize kanji and kana automatically. No special training is needed.
What he said that I've bolded.
Typically, the kanji/hiragana compound comes with i adjectives or verbs, but you'll naturally see it and figure it out as you begin to learn vocabualry.
Don't overthink/worry so much and keep going with the study :)

[Kudryavka]

This is romaji is evil. Give us the meaning (or context) and we'll let you know as it could be the 2nd or 3rd option.
It was part of someone's name. No kanji, sorry.

[Qikz]

This is romaji is evil. Give us the meaning (or context) and we'll let you know as it could be the 2nd or 3rd option.

What he said that I've bolded.
Typically, the kanji/hiragana compound comes with i adjectives or verbs, but you'll naturally see it and figure it out as you begin to learn vocabualry.
Don't overthink/worry so much and keep going with the study :)


Funnily enough, I'm actually the opposite when it comes to Kanji, I end up learning new words from Kanji and then I guess it works the same way because I remember the Kanji from certain words. I couldn't really remember any words generally until Kanji came about, it really helps split up big blocks of text to make it easier to read I'm finding ^^

Especially when it comes to Names/Place Names, like seeing Kyoutou written in Kana, I'm more likely to go what the, but the Kanji I just pick up straight away.

[Suiren Amaterasu]

Try Learn This

I / my / me / mine" -> "私(わたし)はor私が / 私の / 私にor私へ / 私のもの"

[Honeysuckle]

How do you pronounce "Shirow"? しろか、しろうか、しろおか？

In Japan, 士郎 正宗(Masamune Shirow) is "しろう まさむね",
三輪士郎(Shirow Miwa) is "みわ しろう".

cf.
Kenzaburō Ōe 大江健三郎 おおえけんざぶろう
Amakusa Shirō 天草四郎 あまくさしろう
Takushiro Hattori 服部卓四郎 はっとりたくしろう


"郎"や"朗"は
"ro"なのか、 "rō"なのか、それとも"row"なのか。
日本の言葉をアルファベットで書き表す方法も、変わってゆくのかもしれません。

[Tenken's Smile]

How do you say these things in Japanese?

1/ "In my humble opinion..."

2/ "Mr. J has successfully broken the stereotype of a superstar".

3/ "Mr. A is a person like no other" (in a positive way)

4/ "At least" (as in "At least 3 people attended the party")

[nikorai]

Let me try to say it. Though my Japanese is extremely bad. (I'm Russian, actually).

How do you say these things in Japanese?

1/ "In my humble opinion..."

2/ "Mr. J has successfully broken the stereotype of a superstar".

3/ "Mr. A is a person like no other" (in a positive way)

4/ "At least" (as in "At least 3 people attended the party")

1. 私見ですが…
(lit. «it's a personal opinion but…)

2. Jさんはスーパースターのステレオタイプの、ほぼすべてを打ち砕きました。

3. Aさんは誰よりも素敵な人です

4. 少なくとも
少なくとも3人がパーティーに参加しました。

[Tenken's Smile]

Thank you very much, Nikorai!

[nikorai]

Tenken's Smile
Anytime, sir.

But actually there can be variations. I do encourage everyone to share ideas.

[Raiga]

I dunno if this is the right place to ask (should it go in the Culture thread?) but...

Does anybody know what 「声が遅れて聞こえてくるよ」 is a reference to? I googled it and it turned up a bunch of results but I couldn't find one that explained its origins. I think one site mentioned it was related to old TV shows...?

[ditn]

This is my progress so far:

hiragana 100% studied 90%+ memorized
Katakana 95% studied 80% memorized

Im planning to rehearse hiragana & Katakana for the rest of the week.

Hm so what is the next step then,level 5 Kanji+vocabulary(study words from romanji to dutch & symbols to romanji?)

[Honeysuckle]

「声が遅れて聞こえてくるよ」 byいっこく堂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgcHUR0hRrk
6:55-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gUnavwOGgg

[Floris]

..Hmh, I'll just stay with talking. :p

[Raiga]

「声が遅れて聞こえてくるよ」 byいっこく堂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgcHUR0hRrk
6:55-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gUnavwOGgg

Ooooh thanks. ^^

Also that dude has epic skills. o__o

[Qikz]

Quick question, I've finished off the Kanji chart the site I was learning from was using for lessons, as in I've written them all down, it's about 300 in all, what's the best way of going out to find new Kanji to learn, would Translating my way through something work?

I could use that to double effect as in effect I'm learning new words and Kanji at the same time, if I see a Kanji I can go look it up to find the other meanings and write a word down for that, while translating, do you think that would work?

[Honeysuckle]

Is it useful for you?

Wikipedia : Kyōiku kanji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji
Each kanji has a link to its own page.

For Japanese children, Monbu-kagakushō (文部科学省 ministry of education and science) made "list of kanji by school year" (学年別漢字配当表).
Wikipedia says "it can also be used as a sequence of learning characters by non-native speakers as a means of focusing on the most commonly used kanji".

[nikorai]

Honeysuckle

Wikipedia : Kyōiku kanji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji
Each kanji has a link to its own page.

Awesome list.
I checked myself and I can say that most look familiar to me. YAY!
漢字を分かるみたいです。イエイ！
まあ、大部分書けないけど、読めます。

These are tough –
これらが難しいです。

奮う（ふるう）－ to wield
絹（きぬ）－ silk
臓（ぞう）－ bowels
蔵（くら）－ warehouse
蚕（かいこ）－ silkworm
陛（へい）－ highness (as in your Highness)
班（はん）－ group (＝集団)

OK, what next?
次は？

[Kylaran]

Honeysuckle
奮う（ふるう）－ to wield
絹（きぬ）－ silk
臓（ぞう）－ bowels
蔵（くら）－ warehouse
蚕（かいこ）－ silkworm
陛（へい）－ highness (as in your Highness)
班（はん）－ group (＝集団)


These aren't too bad. I think they get a lot harder when you start reading specialized scientific articles. This past quarter at university we had to learn some pretty random vocab like 孵卵 (incubation).

It gets to a point where you really can't forcefully study kanji, and a lot of it comes down to exposure. A lot of the kanji you listed are easily learned if you widen the variety of topics you read about in Japanese.

臓 is easy since I love grilled innards, and I learned that one fast. Plus it's used in a lot of jokes. 陛 isn't bad if you like historical plays/dramas/anime.　

Quick question, I've finished off the Kanji chart the site I was learning from was using for lessons, as in I've written them all down, it's about 300 in all, what's the best way of going out to find new Kanji to learn, would Translating my way through something work?

I could use that to double effect as in effect I'm learning new words and Kanji at the same time, if I see a Kanji I can go look it up to find the other meanings and write a word down for that, while translating, do you think that would work?

I actually think that's a really good idea -- if you focus on easy things, like slice-of-life manga (not comedy based). You might want to pick up more kanji from the chart Honeysuckle linked, but it never hurts to just go for it.

[nikorai]

Kylaran
It gets to a point where you really can't forcefully study kanji, and a lot of it comes down to exposure.
はい、分かりますけど、独学はやっぱり難しいですね。新しい漢字を覚えてみると頭が痛くなっちゃいます。勉 強を頑張っても結果は残念です。私は日本語が超苦手です。

This past quarter at university we had to learn some pretty random vocab like 孵卵 (incubation).

孵卵ですね。Zergのハッチェリーと関連付けて考えています。

[suiryoku]

I've learned a bunch of words in Japanese, but I'm still unsure about my forming of sentences... so if someone could check over a couple for me, that would be fantastic.

Anata wa kerei hito desu

Watashi wa tsukau Google Maps

[Doughnuts]

I've learned a bunch of words in Japanese, but I'm still unsure about my forming of sentences... so if someone could check over a couple for me, that would be fantastic.

Anata wa kerei hito desu

Watashi wa tsukau Google Maps

Place the "na" particle after your adjective when modifying a noun. (kirei na hito).

The verb should come at the end of your second sentence. When using a verb transitively on your noun, use the "wo" particle. (Google Maps wo tsukau).

Your second sentence could form a grammatically valid clause, but probably not as you intended. I'm assuming you simply wanted to say "I use Google Maps". In it's current form, it's more like, "Google Maps, which I use, ...". This is because your verb clause (watashi wa tsukau) becomes an adjective which modifies the noun that follows it.

So the thing to remember is that your verb should come last, anything that modifies it comes before it, and anything that comes after it is modified by it. This rule is pretty much valid for all sentence parts in Japanese - if it modifies a word, it comes before it (excluding particles, which come after.)

[Omusubi]

I think Doughnuts wrote an excellent explanation on this.
As a Japanese, I'd like to add a bit in my bad English.

1. Anata wa kirei na hito desu (あなたはきれいな人です)
This is same as Doughnuts. A perfect sentence. IMO, adding the "ne (ね)" particle makes this sentence sounds more attractive!
(i.e. Anata wa kirei na hito desune (あなたはきれいな人ですね)
2. Watashi wa Google Maps wo tsukau (私はGoogle Maps を使う。)
Not bad. There's no grammatical flaw. But we don't use that phrase much in daily life.
I suggest you an alternative described below.

2+.Watashi wa Google Maps wo tsukaimasu (私はGoogle Maps を使います。 )
The difference between 2 sentences is tsukau/tsukaimasu difference.
Why I changed "tsukau" to "tsukaimasu"? The reason is, the word "Watashi" is a polite form of "I" subject, and the form is suitable in public/business scene. According to use of "Watashi", I changed a verb "tsukau" to "tsukaimasu". "verb+masu" form is more polite than "verb" form.

If you find odd/weird point in my English writing, please correct.
Invitation to language exchange is also welcome.

[Mystique]

Welcome to Animesuki, I hope you have a pleasant time here and make good online acquaintances over the month. ^^

If you find odd/weird point in my English writing, please correct.
Invitation to language exchange is also welcome.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you'll find many people who will take you up on your offer from this forum, lol. :p
Most of us all love Japanese culture in some way and would love to interact with native Japanese people, so I think you'll find some good language partners :)

As for correcting...
Offers for language exchange (practice) are also welcome.
or more relaxed
Any offers for cultural or language exchange are also welcome.

[Omusubi]

As for correcting...
Offers for language exchange (practice) are also welcome.
or more relaxed
Any offers for cultural or language exchange are also welcome.

Oh, thank you for your reply. I checked those phrases using Google.

BTW, I was surprised to know that some of foreign college/university students learn difficut words such as "孵卵(ふらん)". I suppose nearly 50% of all Japanese can't read "孵" correctly.

[Raiga]

Random question, what's the difference between a 手帳 and a ノート?

[Mystique]

Random question, what's the difference between a 手帳 and a ノート?
I'd love to bloody know myself.

Well the general rule with kanji terms over katakana is that the kanji are more formal or official, so I can imagine that 手帳 would be a term used at a bank, or office or in legal practices, but ノート would be used and referred to more casual settings such as school notebooks or diaries or notebooks at home.

That's my two pence anyways, these aspects of Japanese are where a native comes in handy cause it's only a nuance difference, not a meaning one...

[Qikz]

I think Doughnuts wrote an excellent explanation on this.
As a Japanese, I'd like to add a bit in my bad English.

英語が悪いですか・・・いいえ違いますあなたは英語が凄いね！

宜しくね

If what I said actually makes any sense, basically what I'm saying is your English is very good.

So don't worry about it, your English was better there than half of the English speakers who use the net. Going on Facebook makes me cry sometimes.

[Omusubi]

Thanks Qikz.

The difference between a 手帳 and a ノート quiz is interesting.
I think thesaurus dictionaries or Google image search helps a lot.

[Honeysuckle]

We Japanese use "手帳" for "palm-sized notebook" (often with calender,
can be a small diary), I guess.
In December and January, many "手帳"s are sold in stationery shops.

類語国語辞典 (大野晋 浜西正人 角川書店)では、
『帳面:文字などを書くための紙をとじたもの』
の項目に "ノート" や "手帳" があり、
説明はそれぞれ、「ノートブックの略。帳面。筆記帳。雑記帳」
「心覚えを書くためなどの小さな帳面 (手帖)」となっています。


生徒手帳:手帳 + student ID + school rules + School song
警察手帳:+ Police ID (ja wikipedia "警察手帳" is linked en eikipedia "Police notebook")
預金通帳(貯金通帳): passbook or bankbook

トリビア:中学、高校ではID兼用の生徒手帳、大学だと独立した学生証、というケースが多い気 がします。
確か「涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱」に、SOS団設立の申請をハルヒに命じられたキョンが、
生徒手帳の同好会設立の規定が書かれたページを読むシーンがありました。
(あ、英語で始めたのに結局日本語だ。スミマセン)

[Raiga]

I think that clears it up a bit, thanks. So a 手帳 might be similar to what we call an "agenda" or "planner" here? (looks like this (http://www4.uwm.edu/studentorg/soisorg/meetings/gr/images/Agenda.jpg))

I'm asking because there was an example in a textbook I'm reading, that went:

それは　ノートですか。
…いいえ、そうじゃ　ありません。手帳です。

Which kind of confused me, especially because it was an early lesson. XD

[Honeysuckle]

If you are tired of studying Japanese,
please watch this video and forgive Japanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAHNtc07dU&feature=related

[yononaka]

Some additional stuff about 手帳､ ノート and other words related to taking notes and writing things down from 類義語使い分け辞典 for those interested.

｢ノートする･ノートをとる｣は授業や講義の内容･何か思いついたことを書きとめること｡｢ノート｣は書き とめるための､同型の紙を何十枚かとじた物｡ほかに｢フットノート(脚注)･ハイ〔ブルー〕ノート｣など､ 書きとめたもの･音楽の調子を表したりする｡｢メモ(を)する･メモをとる｣はメッセージや買い物をする品 名など､忘れないように簡単に書いておくこと｡メモするための小さな紙(の束)は｢メモ(用紙 )｣｡
｢筆記(速記)する｣は｢筆記試験〔用具〕･口述筆記･速記記号｣など､見たり聞いたり尋ねられたことを､ 紙･用紙･ノートなどに(速く)書くこと｡｢記入する｣は申請用紙･解答用紙などの所定の欄に､必要事項を 書き入れたり､本の空白などに思いついたことを書き込むこと｡
｢帳面｣は外来語｢ノート｣の漢語的表現｡ほとんど使われていない｡｢手帳｣は長期の使用･携帯に耐え､見 栄えをよくするために､表紙が丈夫にできている 8×15cm くらいの大きさのノート｡年間の予定が書き込めるように､カレンダー式になっている物が多い｡｢ノート｣は これよりも大きいが､最大の｢大学ノート｣で A4 判の大きさ｡｢帳簿｣は金銭の収支･物品の出し入れなど､会計上の必要事項を記入するノート｡

[Toleen]

thanx :) ^_^

[Theowne]

If you are tired of studying Japanese,
please watch this video and forgive Japanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAHNtc07dU&feature=related

Haha.....:heh:

I have to admit, I miss the days when I thought I was a bigshot for being able to figure out basic sentences (the kind that no one in Japan actually uses in speech, apparently). Now that I've moved onto "intermediate" stage, it's finally hitting me, the sheer amount of I still need to learn: all the little quirks, heaps of vocabulary, the little strange exceptions, the idiomatic expressions, all these little things that you take for granted about your native language, you have to re-learn for another. And boy, that can be a pain. Still, it's fun, mostly because Japanese is delightfully logical. A nonsensical, inconsistent language like English, on the other hand....

[Sin of Memories]

@_@ I think I am going to go grab rosetta stone....

[Mystique]

If you are tired of studying Japanese,
please watch this video and forgive Japanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAHNtc07dU&feature=related
"Gaki no Tsukai", this show is called.
A "batsu" (punishment) game where the contestants aren't allowed to laugh.

This "bad English lesson" is a pure classic. 5 years of seeing it and it never gets old.
ten, ten, ten, ten, ten, ten, ten, ten, ten, ten :D

[MetalCookie]

I kinda know some Japanese words, but still I want to learn the language.

[bombyethan1000]

I wish to major in japanese in a Japanese uni, even tho I only know english/chinese, is this possible? XD

[Theowne]

I wish to major in japanese in a Japanese uni, even tho I only know english/chinese, is this possible? XD

Yes. Although the pace at some universities in first year might be too fast for someone with zero prior experience.

[bombyethan1000]

So...this would be the kind of program I am looking for
http://www.mext.go.jp/english/news/1283454.htm

Well I guess I could take a one year break after graduating from high school and learn a bit of Jap

[Theowne]

Oh, sorry, I didn't see the "in a Japanese uni" part. I thought you meant a Japanese major at a Western university.

Assuming that majoring in Japanese in Japan is like majoring in English in Canada, it seems very unlikely. To reverse the situation, I don't think that a Japanese student with no English ability dropped into an English major at the University of Toronto would be able to cope.

But since this is a program aimed at internationalization, there may be a softer kind of major aimed at your particular needs.

[bombyethan1000]

^Yes but I have a feeling that some unis in Japan conduct their courses in English, for example osaka uni, http://www.osaka-u.ac.jp/en/guide/international/global30
ofc if toudai or kyodai had this kind of program presumably that wud be great

[Theowne]

It seems like this program offers some of kind of social sciences degree which teaches multicultural perspectives on Japan and globalization, as I would expect. So if that sort of thing interests you, then sure. But it definitely does not seem like what one would expect of a "major in Japanese" in a Japanese university. But I'm just inferring from a brief read of that web site, so who knows.

[Kudryavka]

I wish to major in japanese in a Japanese uni, even tho I only know english/chinese, is this possible? XD
Hm, knowing Chinese will help with reading Japanese, but I don't know how much.

May I ask why you specifically want to go to a Japanese university to major in Japanese? If it's just so you can go to Japan, I'd recommend going to an American (I assume that's where you're from) university that will both allow you to participate in an exchange program with a Japanese sister school and offer a major in Japanese.

On a side note, are you sure you want to major in a language? Unless you're planning to be an interpreter or something, majoring in Japanese is somewhat useless in the job world. It would also be useful in getting a job in Japan, but that altogether is pretty unrealistic.

[demetris]

Hi. That's my first post here, so よろしくお願いします.

This thread has been a great source of knowledge the past year :)

I've been self-studying Japanese the last 13 months and I wonder if there is anything to help me informally evaluate my level. The formal JLPT examination is not available here but I'd like to have a rough idea of my skills.

[Qikz]

Been translating my way through Persona 3 PSP, taking me a while but I've learnt so many new words since beginning. Not very far through the game yet, not past the proper intro as I've only done the first fight with the Shadow. Quite funny really, but I've been really enjoying it.

[Kudryavka]

Hi. That's my first post here, so よろしくお願いします.

This thread has been a great source of knowledge the past year :)

I've been self-studying Japanese the last 13 months and I wonder if there is anything to help me informally evaluate my level. The formal JLPT examination is not available here but I'd like to have a rough idea of my skills.
If you're still in high school, you can try a crack at the American SAT Subject Test for Japanese. The tests are available in certain countries other than the US.

[demetris]

If you're still in high school, you can try a crack at the American SAT Subject Test for Japanese. The tests are available in certain countries other than the US.

Thanks but no luck with this either. I'm living in Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) and no Japanese language classes are available, let alone any kind of formal examinations.
I suppose the only way is to solve JLPT past papers on my own (which practically means nothing but it will satisfy my need to know what my level is).

[Omusubi]

Methodology - How to evaluate your skill, exams and non exams -

--- exams ---
I found a good list of Japanese language exams(a little bit old). Here it is.
http://info.pref.fukui.jp/kokusai/tagengo/html_e/konnatoki/7kyouiku/c_gaksyu/t_kentei.html#nihongo

--- non exams ---
some thoughts concerning DIY methods...
/Realistic
Read text books. Their content varies from level to level.
Check online education programs. Usually, they have some tests.
/Possible, but...
Get Japanese school textbooks. There is school grade difference.
Chatting/speaking with Japanese learners or Japanese people on the internet. Ask them to measure your skill.
Read children's literature. If you understand all the words contained with those books, you are at the level of "supposed" readers.

By the way, Do you know this ridiculous hearing test?
Evangelion shows up in Japanese proficiency exam ?
http://magweasel.com/2009/12/06/evangelion-shows-up-in-japanese-proficiency-exam/
audio file
http://mymedia.yam.com/m/2972781
This is not an April Fools joke, even worse, a true question... This is undoubtedly a parody of Evangelion.
"Asuka + #2" is not the right answer.

[ditn]

A while ago i finished learning Kana (hiragana / katakana) and now i am learning kanji from the link posted above

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji
I have a couple of things i don't understand:
1)one ichi, itsu hito-tsu
so there are always multiple words for 1 english word like above,why is this?
And which one is the actual translation for the word?(so one must probably be the translated word and the others part of a word)

2)five go and behind go,kou
Multiple words have the same translation, do you need to understand the context to know which to use?

[Qikz]

1) They're all different ways the Kanji can be read, most Kanji generally has more than one reading you can read it as.

2) Yeah, much like most Japanese things it's down to context.

[Lady P!nk]

This is threaad is really nice, and i'll love to learn japanese but, i have to learn english very well first

My Main Language's arabic, and i know few japanese word, like arigato, i think it's corret ^^"
And yoo, and hai? and nany: mean what? i think it's good soo far, isn't? :3

I'm watching digimon adventure now, and i did learn all these word froom it ~ :3

[Seitsuki]

A while ago i finished learning Kana (hiragana / katakana) and now i am learning kanji from the link posted above

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%8Diku_kanji
I have a couple of things i don't understand:
1)one ichi, itsu hito-tsu
so there are always multiple words for 1 english word like above,why is this?
And which one is the actual translation for the word?(so one must probably be the translated word and the others part of a word)

2)five go and behind go,kou
Multiple words have the same translation, do you need to understand the context to know which to use?

kanji usually have multiple readings, the kunyomi (original Japanese reading) and onyomi (imported Chinese reading).

general rule of thumb is to use the kun when the kanji is by itself or with kana, and the on when the kanji is paired with another kanji.

[Qikz]

This may seem like a random question, but over the various Japanese things I've watched, read, played there's one thing I still can't work out what it is. I'm guessing it's some kind of internet slang as I can't find it in any dictionaries and it's used in a few of those ASCII style emoticons.

キタ！

I'm guessing it's some kind of like scream of excitement but I have no idea, anyone have any clue of what it is?

Also I've found when learning new Kanji that if I try and look at a word in full kana which I know the Kanji for it just confuses me, quite a weird quirk that is.

[Raiga]

"Here it is!" Roughly. I think.

[Omusubi]

Qikz, Raiga, the guesses are right.
Probably, this usage of "来た"("come" in past tense) is not found in formal dictionaries. Here's explanation.

1. informal, spoken language
2. usually used by young people (both of male and female) on Net
3. you can say this word when you encountered something you expected
4. has same meaning as "キタコレ"　（来たこれ）

examples:
---with negative emotion---
You are watching Aliens directed by James Cameron.
The creature appears from darkness all of a sudden.
Then, you can say "キター！".

---with positive emotion---
You bought a lottery ticket.
Finally, it becomes clear that you drew a winning number.
Then, you can scream "キター！".

***a database of Net slang***
http://www.media-k.co.jp/jiten/index.html

[Qikz]

Today has been really bizzare, someone I know from a forum has gone to Japan for 2 weeks and his mate changed something on the air conditioning and had no idea what he'd done and broke it, so he took a photo and got me to translate the air conditioner for him.

Then I had to translate the instructions on his phone. Been an interesting day and learnt a few new words like 冷房、暖房、風向、自動

[Mystique]

Today has been really bizzare, someone I know from a forum has gone to Japan for 2 weeks and his mate changed something on the air conditioning and had no idea what he'd done and broke it, so he took a photo and got me to translate the air conditioner for him.

Then I had to translate the instructions on his phone. Been an interesting day and learnt a few new words like 冷房、暖房、風向、自動
That hasn't really broken it :p
Just the term "Air conditioner" is not how we think in the western sense of 'cold air' only.
Those 4 settings are the same in my room and tons of other AC's around here.
reibou (cool air) and danbou (heating) and the main two that you need to know for most part. Just press the same button until you get back to the same setting :p

Wind direction and 'self motion' (auto) are weird things I just ignore, as long as I get heat in the winter and cool air in the summer :p

If you've learnt some stuff, feel free to translate and explain for others in here using Japanese, esp in this thread :)

[Qikz]

Yeah, he didn't break it, but he's been sitting there sweating as he couldn't work out what any of the buttons did. I told him though. :P

[demetris]

Methodology - How to evaluate your skill, exams and non exams -
--- non exams ---
some thoughts concerning DIY methods...
/Realistic
Read text books. Their content varies from level to level.
Check online education programs. Usually, they have some tests.
/Possible, but...
Get Japanese school textbooks. There is school grade difference.
Chatting/speaking with Japanese learners or Japanese people on the internet. Ask them to measure your skill.
Read children's literature. If you understand all the words contained with those books, you are at the level of "supposed" readers.


Helpful, thanks.

I ordered a light novel of my favorite genre (detective fiction :D) and I'm planning to evaluate myself by reading and translating it... Not a children's book, not targeted at adults either...
I already blog in Japanese on lang-8. I should do something about speaking as well...

[Yuutsu]

I hope I don't offend anyone with this potentially offensive topic changer, but I'd definitely agree with Tae Kim with regards to kanji - that the Japanese somehow butchered it. I'm not sure who's bright idea it was for each individual kanji to have multiple ways to be read!!!

I realize that it's absolutely necessary to use the same kanji multiple times for different words, but I don't quite get why someone felt it necessary to impart 15 or so ways of pronouncing the character, 玍... In that respect, I have no clue how you guys manage to learn Moon Runes so well! Are you sure you're not robots or something?

*note* This entire post was not meant to be taken seriously.

*2nd note* My final question is meant to be taken seriously. I personally find studying Chinese to be a breeze. I've memorized approximately 1063 Chinese characters in 7 months (all to long-term memory XD), and will probably hit my target of 3000 by the end of this year. In comparison, I doubt that learning kanji will go anywhere near as smoothly - when I actually decide to learn it, that is.

[Doraneko]

I realize that it's absolutely necessary to use the same kanji multiple times for different words, but I don't quite get why someone felt it necessary to impart 15 or so ways of pronouncing the character, 玍... In that respect, I have no clue how you guys manage to learn Moon Runes so well! Are you sure you're not robots or something?

Sorry, we are cyborgs. You need to have your head cut open and implant a bunch of kanji chips there in order to swallow all the kanji. :cool:

The first one is called the kun-yomi chip, which is as large as your palm and contains the "Japanese-style" pronounciations. The second one is the on-yomi chip, which is as large as your nose and contains the "Chinese-style" pronunciations. The third one is the gairaigo chip, which is as large as your thumb, containing irregular pronunciations that don't fit into the previous two chips. :eek:

You will lose some brain materials in the process but that's no big problem. We only use a small portion of our total brain capacity anyway. :eyespin:


*2nd note* My final question is meant to be taken seriously. I personally find studying Chinese to be a breeze. I've memorized approximately 1063 Chinese characters in 7 months (all to long-term memory XD), and will probably hit my target of 3000 by the end of this year. In comparison, I doubt that learning kanji will go anywhere near as smoothly - when I actually decide to learn it, that is.

So what's the final question? The robot one? :heh:

Anyway once you have a sound Chinese and English knowledge base, learning Japanese is a breeze. The Japanese grammar is highly systematic with little exceptions, and a large portion of the vocabulary is borrowed from Chinese or English.

[Qikz]

I've found so far Kanji seems to get easier by learning words rather than single Kanji, since you can start associating Kanji with words rather than it's actual reading. Makes it easier for me anyway.

[demetris]

I've found so far Kanji seems to get easier by learning words rather than single Kanji, since you can start associating Kanji with words rather than it's actual reading. Makes it easier for me anyway.

I'll agree. Don't try to memorize every single 音 and 訓 readings individually... It's not efficient.
Instead learn how a word is pronounced and its meaning. Even when you encounter an unknown word made up by kanji you already know you will be able to produce the reading.

[demetris]

Btw, I would appreciate some help with the bold words below. I understand the overall meaning but I can't make a proper translation:

英語で　ベラベラまくし　立ってたら Instead of speaking ??? in English, how about standing up
びびって引き下がるとても思ってんの ???
なんか文句あるんだろうけど I don't know what your problem is
おばあちゃんに席を譲るぐらい　どうってことないじゃない but you can at least allow that old lady take your seat
(from Nihonjin no shiranai nihongo tv drama, episode 1)

[Honeysuckle]

まくし立てる　rattle off
びびる　become timid
引き下がる　back down

[demetris]

まくし立てる　rattle off
びびる　become timid
引き下がる　back down

Thanks. These Japanese subtitles have some weird spacing btw.

[Kudryavka]

Hey guys.

I'm thinking about buying some books from Amazon.jp, both to practice my skills and to circumvent certain companies' bullsh*ttery (f'n Viz Media licenses Shana novels, goes dormant after 2 volumes, then when Baka-Tsuki comes to try and finish the translation, Viz rages and demands they take the translation down? Then refuses to release the freakin third book still??!)

Anyway, here's my list:
Toradora (novel) vol. 1
Little Busters! Manga Vol. 1
AIR manga vol. 1
Little Busters! 4koma vol. 1
Shakugan no Shana (novel) vol. 3

Any suggestions on what may be too challenging?

[Doraneko]

Anyway, here's my list:
Toradora (novel) vol. 1
Little Busters! Manga Vol. 1
AIR manga vol. 1
Little Busters! 4koma vol. 1
Shakugan no Shana (novel) vol. 3

Any suggestions on what may be too challenging?

I am not too sure of your level. But since you are interested in novels I guess you have gone past the starter's level. Manga should be a bliss for you at this stage.

As for novels, do you have any experience in reading light novels? Toradora should be okay as long as it is not your first novel. There is nothing particularly difficult in it.

Shana on the other hand may be a pain given its wide use of self-coined kanji terminologies. The Shana online dictionary (http://www1.atwiki.jp/sslibrary/) maybe helpful to you if you decide to give it a go. It is also a good idea to get vol.1-2 in Japanese too, since you will have a hard time understanding the well established terms in vol.3 with only knowledge of vol.1-2 in English.

It would be the best if there is any Japanese bookstore in your region. Visit it, grab the latest light novel release and spend 10 minutes on it. If you can understand most of the stuff without struggling with dictionaries, then you should be okay with most light novels.

[solomon]

Does anyone recommend writing on forums for practice? Like 2ch maybe?

I recently got bitten by the french bug and found a forum en linge where I take some stabs at it. (It's a Simpsons fan forum au francaise:p)

[Kudryavka]

Does anyone recommend writing on forums for practice? Like 2ch maybe?

I recently got bitten by the french bug and found a forum en linge where I take some stabs at it. (It's a Simpsons fan forum au francaise:p)
Only problem is 2ch probably banned you because you're not Japanese.

So unless you're really good at Japanese, to the point that they wouldn't be able to call "Gaijin!" on you, I'd advise against going there, since they're rather xenophobic.

I'd suggest a forum whose sole existence is to host Japanese/English conversations. A quick Google search should give some nice results.

@Doraneko Oh really? Well my Japanese isn't good enough to breeze through manga, unless there's furigana. I was thinking that since light novels usually have furigana, they'd be on the same reading level as shounen manga (I believe most of my list is shounen, except maybe Air), just with less pictures. I will take your word of caution about Shana, though, thanks. :heh: Even though I'm really itching for it and Viz Media isn't delivering...

[Doraneko]

Does anyone recommend writing on forums for practice? Like 2ch maybe?

I have been staying in certain 2ch threads for quite some time. As long as you don't sound too like a gaijin you will be fine. There are too many retarded posts and grammatical errors are common. Keep a low profile, mix with the silliness and you won't stand out. The xenophobic posts are certainly a pain to the eyes. But there are browsers that allow you to hide messages from specific posters.

A greater problem is probably the 2ch-speak that you need some time to get used to. 2ch is like 4chan, great for silly chats but there is not much you can learn by staying there.

Nevertheless, professional discussion boards on specific topics like current affairs are even harder as they require real Japanese. In that sense 2ch is not too bad as a starting point.

Check the example below and see how much you can understand :p.

10_風の谷の名無しさん＠実況は実況板で
二桁あぁぁぁぁぁぁぁぁァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァァ

11_風の谷の名無しさん＠実況は実況板で
ドＭ属性のキャラ満載www
よって良いアニメ

12_風の谷の名無しさん＠実況は実況板で
>11
禿同!

13_風の谷の名無しさん＠実況は実況板で
神展開希ガスwktk

@Doraneko Oh really? Well my Japanese isn't good enough to breeze through manga, unless there's furigana. I was thinking that since light novels usually have furigana, they'd be on the same reading level as shounen manga (I believe most of my list is shounen, except maybe Air), just with less pictures. I will take your word of caution about Shana, though, thanks. :heh: Even though I'm really itching for it and Viz Media isn't delivering...

The density of furigana in light novels is close to normal teenager literature. Here is a sample page (http://blog-imgs-30-origin.fc2.com/f/s/o/fsokuvip/netabare.jpg) from Toradora that I grabbed from google. Normally a 300-page light novel has around 10 illustrations.

Take a look at the page and see if you are comfortable with it. :)

If you absolutely need furigana for every single kanji, I would recommend Tsubasa bunko and Aoitori bunko. Earlier in this thread I have posted an introduction about them. You can also check the sample pages in the official sites.

Btw for Japanese learners who want to develop their reading comprehension capability, but feel that light novels are too tiring to read due to the sheer amount of kanji, you may try the Kadokawa Tsubasa Bunko (http://www.tsubasabunko.jp/index02.html) as a stepping stone. Although this novel label is mainly marketed towards primary school children, many of the stories are decent enough to be enjoyed by adults too (They are indeed quite popular among Japanese office ladies.) Just like light novels, they come with manga style illustrations. But the font size is slightly larger, with furigana included for every kanji.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3914/0001pp.jpghttp://img687.imageshack.us/img687/133/002jau.jpghttp://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8922/003ann.jpghttp://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7906/004uoj.jpg

I am still pretty amazed that primary school kids can appreciate Haruhi, though :twitch:. And no, these are not watered-down rewritten versions like those pigeon English books for kids. The original text is kept intact. One of the things that I respect the Japanese is that they never dumb down their children stuff, and at the same time there is no soccer mom whinning about that. :heh:

Another similar label is Aoitori Bunko (http://shop.kodansha.jp/bc/aoitori/). But apparently the lineup is less otaku-ish and is more like what you would expect in a traditional children literature label.

[Vexx]

I started off with manga like Yotsubato and like-wise simple manga ... even then the dictionaries sat near by. I am trying Toradora! and Wolf&Spice but that's reaching for the dictionary every couple of lines. Its like leveling... start with the easy stuff, don't get in over your head but its fun to visit the "harder areas" and see your progress.

I ended up finishing Tsukuyomi Moon Phase in Japanese (buying the collection) because a certain jackass company won't finish it (12/16 done). This unreliability is a great motivator for me.

[demetris]

A critical question for the beginner/intermediate people who read light novels:
Would you annotate the book (put furigana readings, mark grammatical functions, vocabulary), would you do so in a dedicated notebook or you won't annotate what you are reading at all?

[Mystique]

A critical question for the beginner/intermediate people who read light novels:
Would you annotate the book (put furigana readings, mark grammatical functions, vocabulary), would you do so in a dedicated notebook or you won't annotate what you are reading at all?

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5622/narutoexcept.th.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/narutoexcept.jpg/)
I ended up writing the kanji and english meaning in all of the top and bottom margins, still got another 100 pages to go :p

It's up to you, but for the light novels I'm reading (my new challenge for this year), in pencil, i'm writing the readings and kanji in the book, so i can refer to it if I'm truly at a loss while focusing on the prose itself.

[demetris]

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5622/narutoexcept.th.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/narutoexcept.jpg/)
I ended up writing the kanji and english meaning in all of the top and bottom margins, still got another 100 pages to go :p

It's up to you, but for the light novels I'm reading (my new challenge for this year), in pencil, i'm writing the readings and kanji in the book, so i can refer to it if I'm truly at a loss while focusing on the prose itself.

Got my first Japanese novel today :D Kind of exciting.

Probably, I will pencil the readings in the book (pardon me for verbing a noun btw) and keep the rest of the notes elsewhere. In a blog maybe.

[Orizuru]

Nice to meet you!
I'm Japanese who came here for the first time.I am amazed that everyone is studying hard about Japanese language and culture.
I am not good at English...but I will work hard to learn English through reading this forum.

...I doubt if I am writing correct English...；；

[demetris]

Nice to meet you!
I'm Japanese who came here for the first time.I am amazed that everyone is studying hard about Japanese language and culture.
I am not good at English...but I will work hard to learn English through reading this forum.

...I doubt if I am writing correct English...;;

I'm new here as well, but welcome. :D

[Doraneko]

Nice to meet you!
I'm Japanese who came here for the first time.I am amazed that everyone is studying hard about Japanese language and culture.
I am not good at English...but I will work hard to learn English through reading this forum.

...I doubt if I am writing correct English...；；

Welcome! :)

Your English is far better than my Japanese (or maybe even my English :heh:). We would certainly appreciate if you could share your knowledge regarding the language and culture of Japan. Please enjoy your stay here. See you around!

A critical question for the beginner/intermediate people who read light novels:
Would you annotate the book (put furigana readings, mark grammatical functions, vocabulary), would you do so in a dedicated notebook or you won't annotate what you are reading at all?

Personally I have never annotated stuff on my novels as I sometimes resell them :heh:.

Although I have a dedicated notebook for grammar and vocabulary notes, recently I have become so lazy that I have never opened it for almost a year.

I mostly just check the history of my electronic dictionary for revision. :)

[Aaerul]

ちょっと聞きたいんですけど…

仮定形+ば
I am running into this construction quite often. Normally since it is hypothetical I would translate it as 'if'. But here I am certain it is not If. Some other person told me that this form can be translated as 'soon after'. But that doesn't fit in the below example either...

交通事情によって30分で行けることもあれば1時間以上かかることもある。

any ideas ty.

[Orizuru]

ちょっと聞きたいんですけど…

仮定形+ば
I am running into this construction quite often. Normally since it is hypothetical I would translate it as 'if'. But here I am certain it is not If. Some other person told me that this form can be translated as 'soon after'. But that doesn't fit in the below example either...

交通事情によって30分で行けることもあれば1時間以上かかることもある。

any ideas ty.

This expression is neither 'If' nor 'soon after'.

30分で行けることもあれば1時間以上かかることもある。
　　　　　　　　　↓↓
Sometimes we can arrive there in 30 minutes,sometimes it take us more than an hour to arrive there.


for example...

テレビを見ることが好きな人もいれば本を読むことが好きな人もいる。
　　　　　　　　　↓↓
Some people are fond of watching television,while the others prefer to read a book.　


Sorry...It is difficult for me to explain this expression:bow:

[Honeysuckle]

ば[助詞]
2-5 口語の活用語の仮定形に接続して、同趣の事柄を並べる。
---広辞苑第三版

[Doraneko]

ば[助詞]
2-5 口語の活用語の仮定形に接続して、同趣の事柄を並べる。
---広辞苑第三版

Random translation for anyone interested:

BA [particle]

2.5 Connected with the conditional conjugated form in colloquial speech, it is used for lining up matters of the same subject.

~ The Koujien Dictionary (3rd Edition)

[Aaerul]

Thank you. Helped me a ton

[Tenken's Smile]

How do you say "Please excuse my Japanese" (because it's not good)?

And how to say, "Thank you for spending your time reading my letter"?
I don't know how to say = "[ spending your time ] kono tegami wo yonde kudasatte arigatou gozaimasu"

[Mystique]

How do you say "Please excuse my Japanese" (because it's not good)?

And how to say, "Thank you for spending your time reading my letter"?
I don't know how to say = "[ spending your time ] kono tegami wo yonde kudasatte arigatou gozaimasu"
Just add sumimasen, and it's fine. That says everything and nothing in one word :p
日本語はまだまだので、すみませんです。
nihongo wa mada mada no de, sumimasen desu.
(there are probably a billion ways to say it, depending on who you're saying it to, so I'm giving a generic one that I often use)

As for the other, the 'yonde kudasatte' already has the emotional nuance of 'going out of your way to read my 'lame ass letter', Japanese are a humble lot. Once you start tossing in keigo, the humility aspect is in your sentence and the feeling conveyed, so no need to literally translate everything little thing.
English is literal, Japanese is contextual.

手紙を読んでくれてあるがとう！
tegami wo yonde kurete arigatou! (close mate)
手紙を読んでいただいて、ありがとうございます
tegami wo yonde itadaite, arigatou gozaimasu (normal generic keigo)

I asked my friend about the difference between kurete and moratte and she said that it's the same thing...but moratte is used when someone you don't know too well does you a favour.
Like...

お母さんは手紙を読んでくれた。
店員は手紙を読んでもらった。
My mother read my letter.
The shop clerk read my letter.

もらうVS くれる、ニュアンスによって、どう違いますか。:uhoh: 復習したいなぁ。。
All that comes to mind now is Bruce Lee's famous line in "Enter the Dragon"

Lee: *slaps the kid's head*
Don't think, feel~~

[Doraneko]

店員は手紙を読んでもらった。
The shop clerk read my letter.
店員に手紙を読んでもらった。
Or if you had intended to say that "the clerk has his letter read by someone else", then your sentence would have been correct.

もらうVS くれる、ニュアンスによって、どう違いますか。:uhoh: 復習したいなぁ。。

In もらう, the benefited party is the subject, whereas in くれる, the benefiting party is the subject. Accordingly the particles to use are also different.
私はＢからＣをもらった。／　私はＢにＣをやってもらった。
I received C from B. / B did C for me (upon request).

Ｂは私にＣをくれた。／　Ｂは私にＣをやってくれた。
B gave C to me. / B (actively) did C for me.


It follows that くださる (from くれる) highlights that the action-in-question is initiated by the benefiting party. This inherently implies that the benefited party is thankful for the action.教えて下さってありがとうございます。
Thank you very much for teaching me.
(Implied: thank you for taking the initiative to teach me.)

On the other hand, いただく (from もらう) highlights that the benefiting party did the action-in-question on request of the benefited party. This inherently implies that the benefited party owes the benefiting party a favour.ご協力頂きありがとうございます。
Thank you very much for your assistance.
(Implied: thank you for responding to my request for help and lent me a hand.)


いただく is regarded as more polite than くださる by many. This may be attributable to the fact that many people think that the feeling of owing something is heavier than a simple feeling of gratefulness. It is true that traditional linguists separate the use of two very clearly. For example, they would oppose to the use of ていただいてありがとう as they find it grammatically unsound. Nonetheless in modern daily use the two are largely interchangeable.

Distinguishing the two in normal form maybe more of a headache as they are less interchangeable. For example if you'd like to thank someone for giving you a can of beer:Ｏ　ビールを奢ってくれてありがとう。
Ｘ　ビールを奢ってくれてすみません。
Ｘ　ビールを奢ってもらってありがとう。
Ｏ　ビールを奢ってもらってすみません。

[Tenken's Smile]

@Mystique: ご協力頂きありがとうございます。:D

More questions :D How do you translate this into Japanese?
---> "In my humble opinion, Mr. A is more honest than Mr. B because he isn’t afraid to show what he is (personality-wise). Mr. A is Mr. A inside and out; he is blunt, never to decorate his words, unless for some good reasons (such as: testing/eliciting people's reactions)."

[Orizuru]

More questions How do you translate this into Japanese?
---> "In my humble opinion, Mr. A is more honest than Mr. B because he isn’t afraid to show what he is (personality-wise). Mr. A is Mr. A inside and out; he is blunt, never to decorate his words, unless for some good reasons (such as: testing/eliciting people's reactions)."


私見ですが、AさんはBさんより正直者です。何故ならAさんは自分自身を表現することを恐れな いからです。
Aさんは率直で、何か理由(他の人の反応を見たい時など)がない限り自分の言葉を飾ったりすることは決して ありません。
Mr. A is Mr. A inside and out;

Aさんは中も外もAさんです(？)
Sorry,I didn't get this sentence...:(

[Raiga]

Quick question:

Would I call a college professor by the 先生 honorific or should I say 博士 or something else?

[Mystique]

Quick question:

Would I call a college professor by the 先生 honorific or should I say 博士 or something else?
Direct address as sensei as that's typically used for anyone in a profession that kinda 'guides or teaches' you generally.
(Even mangaka's are referred to as <name> sensei)
The hakase however, I guess it depends on the person if they want to be directly address as so.
I know on offical newsletters or pamphlets, they'd refer to that but in a general conversional level, not to sure.

Doesn't sound like a clear cut A vs B matter for me, but that be my two pence there, others may know better.

[ryohei]

Quick question:

Would I call a college professor by the 先生 honorific or should I say 博士 or something else?

I always call my professor "<name> sensei".
Doctor and Professor are very formal, so I don't use them in casual conversation.
And professor is professor. Of course s/he has doctoral degree, but professor isn't called doctor, s/he is professor. This is western manner.:)

[ditn]

I have a couple more questions :)

kyū what does ū mean here ?
what is the meaning of the surfix after words like oni one name,... politeness level?
And last something i was wondering,are verbs in japnese conjugated
like in french you have
je suis
tu est
il est
.....

[Raiga]

I have a couple more questions :)

kyū what does ū mean here ?
what is the meaning of the surfix after words like oni one name,... politeness level?
And last something i was wondering,are verbs in japnese conjugated
like in french you have
je suis
tu est
il est
.....

You mean the line over the u? That means it's a long syllable. Alternate romanization is "kyuu," in kana that would be written as きゅう

The honorific is... uh, something like that. Like, depends on if you're addressing someone older than you/senior in a school or business/position of authority, etc. etc. Someone else can explain it better than I could, I'm sure. :\

And yes verbs in Japanese conjugate. To be more specific the language is agglutinative, which is kind of like super-conjugating (once you conjugate a verb you could conjugate it again and again, almost indefinitely).

[Omusubi]

Hi

I happened to teach Japanese to a person whose mother tongue is English.
What point of Japanese grammar would be a big problem for Japanese learners?
Could someone tell me your opinion? Unfortunately, I can't manage to be objective to Japanese language.
I want to take your opinion into account, to make a better study plan for my first student.:)

This thread is full of hints. I have been reading this thread for 2-3 days.


Thanks.;)

(I know that the thread title is not "teaching Japanese", an inversed theme. hehe)
(Japanese character system is quite odd. I'm going to postpone those runes and teach actual sound first)
(It would be great that there's a summary of this thread somewhere. 155 pages are very tough.)

[Qikz]

I can't think of a peice of grammar that really confused me early on, I still get confused by the なら statements though. Not sure if that helps you in any way, but I know that confused me at first.

I'm slowly working my way up, trying to set myself up a little schedule for learning, I've been trying to go on some Japanese Mumble servers and just go to listen and maybe join in to talk if I feel confident enough, but I feel scared that they'll think I'm intruding on them, eek! Tommorow I shall make my move, speaking Japanese to an actual speaker will help alot as I currently don't have anyone to speak to.

I'm going to try and apply to the JET Program this September! It's a program that japanese embasseys run which means you get payed by the Japanese government to live in Japan for a year and teach English in a school. I can't begin to imagine how happy that would make me if I got into it, but if I fail this year to get in, I'll try again next year, and the year after until I get in. :heh:

[Omusubi]

Thank you for many responces from people in Animesuki Forums.
(BTW, it seems that Satoshi Kon (今 敏) passed away. I miss his peculiar style)

[Qikz]

Well, I set up a silly little blog now to just practice my writing with, if you want to use it tp practice reading feel free to read it, I know it's not perfect so if you notice any mistakes, please feel free to correct me!

[thevil1]

I'm confused about the order of the Hirigana characters, and the sounds that each one make. I've been trying to go by this site, but I get confused when I use other sites as well. Is this the correct order starting top-left down?
http://www.yosida.com/en/hiragana.html
I know that there are a lot more characters, (correct me if I'm wrong)
but I just get really confused.

[Langus]

Those are the right characters. Start at the top left and work your way down the first row. Those are the first 5 sounds in the Japanese alphabet. The other alphabet is called katakana and it is more widely used in Japan on restaurant menus, street signs, and such. There are some good websites out there where you can find tips on pronunciation. You might even try Youtube.

[Yuutsu]

Is it feasible to learn Japanese by buying a bunch of Japanese light novels + a good Japanese dictionary and studying off of them?

I have basic knowledge of the grammar, and useless amounts of vocab. However, I don't actually plan to buy the books and the dictionary until I've gone through Tae Kim's Guide to Grammar at least once and finished learning the top 3000 most-used 汉字 (I'm at 800, at the moment).

Several people that I know of have recommended learning a foreign language by diving right into the "source material" - that is, anything written in the language you are interested in learning. One person, in particular, said that it's definitely the way to go (though he contradicted himself, later, by saying that light novels shouldn't be attempted until near-literary fluency has been attained).

Though this may sound rather shallow, I'm only really interested in being able to read the language. I don't care if I can't speak it or if I can't write it, so I think this method might actually suit me quite well.

[thevil1]

Is it feasible to learn Japanese by buying a bunch of Japanese light novels + a good Japanese dictionary and studying off of them?

I have basic knowledge of the grammar, and useless amounts of vocab. However, I don't actually plan to buy the books and the dictionary until I've gone through Tae Kim's Guide to Grammar at least once and finished learning the top 3000 most-used 汉字 (I'm at 800, at the moment).

Several people that I know of have recommended learning a foreign language by diving right into the "source material" - that is, anything written in the language you are interested in learning. One person, in particular, said that it's definitely the way to go (though he contradicted himself, later, by saying that light novels shouldn't be attempted until near-literary fluency has been attained).

Though this may sound rather shallow, I'm only really interested in being able to read the language. I don't care if I can't speak it or if I can't write it, so I think this method might actually suit me quite well.

For any foreign language (assuming you can read it moderately) it is good to pick up a news paper in that language or in your case a Jap news web site. That will get you better at reading, and modern vocab. Another way to help pick up words is you can download free pod-casts off of iTunes, and on Google Chrome, there is a free extension where you can watch TV from around the world and some times you can pick up a few Japanese infomercials.
I know people who did that with other languages, and they can speak almost flawlessly, and hold a moderately inelegant conversation. Once in a while they will get stuck on words that they don't know how to say it in that language. I'm currently taking a class and doing independent studying on the symbols. But once I can read it, I will use this method.

[Langus]

Japanese newspaper reading would be a terrible idea. They are full of complex kanji that even most native Japanese have trouble understanding.

Light novel reading might be an okay route but here's the problem - you wind up coming across a lot of slang that just isn't taught in a text or other legit sources. So you're left not really understanding the meaning because it's mostly spoken Japanese idioms that are being translated into text. That's the trouble with picking up modern sources. Unless you've got a high level of speaking/understanding ability a lot of it isn't going to make sense.

You might be able to learn the language the way you're doing it but to be honest, you aren't really making it easy on yourself. Languages aren't meant to be learnt as only for reading.

[Fruits Basket Fan]

How to I say:

"If I did not love Japan, I would not have return for a second time!"



Also if I were to go on a amusement park ride and I am next on line due to extra space.....how do I say:

"Sorry, I want to ride with my mother!"

[thevil1]

"If I did not love Japan, I would not have return for a second time!" - "もし私が日本を愛していない、私は2回目の戻り値を持っていない！" - (" Moshi watashi ga Nippon o aishite inai, watashi wa 2-kai-me no modori-chi o motte inai!")

"Sorry, I want to ride with my mother!" - "申し訳ありませんが、私は母と一緒に乗ってみたい！" - (" Mōshiwake arimasenga, watashi wa haha to issho ni notte mitai!")

I don't know how accurate it is, but I think it's correct.

[Langus]

I might be wrong about this since I'm still learning J-go myself, but I'm fairly sure you can omit the second "watashi wa" in the first sentence. A lot is implied in Japanese. You'd be surprised how many words they omit from a sentence and still have it be a complete thought. For the first sentence, since you've already got "watashi ga", it's implied that you are still talking about yourself so the second "watashi wa" is kind of redundant/unnecessary.

[secretzfan]

Learn the basics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K89FQIiEEzI&feature=related

[Seitsuki]

"Sorry, I want to ride with my mother!" - "申し訳ありませんが、私は母と一緒に乗ってみたい！" - (" Mōshiwake arimasenga, watashi wa haha to issho ni notte mitai!")

I don't know how accurate it is, but I think it's correct.

hm isn't みたい　more "to try"? pretty sure 乗りたい　woulda been sufficient

also, might wanna try this thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=13227) for translations

[thevil1]

I have three questions pertaining to Hiragana that is really slowing me down...
Question One:
which way is it written/read? Right-left/left-right? (I feel stupid for asking that)

Question Two:
Is Hiragan written the way a word sounds? Example... would "Konnichi-wa" be spelled "こにちわ" since the individual letters 'こ' 'に' 'ち' 'わ' together make up the sound of the word for "hello". Does that make sense?

Question three:
How can I set my computer to be able to type Japanese characters? I use a stranded US keyboard, Win XP, Mozila Firefox.

[LeoXiao]

@thevil1:

1. When horizontal, Japanese is read left-to-right, like English. When vertical, it goes down (duh) but starts at the Western "end" of the book, so you flip "backwards" and read the lines backwards.

2. "konnichi-wa" is "kon" and "nichiwa", so it's written like "こんにちわ", or "ko-n-ni-chi-wa". Basically you missed the extra "n".

3. This is just based on vague memory, but in Control Panel, if you go to "Regional and Language Options" or something like that, you should be able to add languages and keyboard sets. I had some problems typing Japanese with WinXP though.

[Doughnuts]

1.Horizontal text is written/read left to right as English is. Traditionally, text is written vertically, and columns in right to left order, but most text is horizontal these days because it's easier to produce with computers.

2. In this case, it's written こんにちは. There's a double N in "konnichi", but this is actually 2 separate mora, and is written using the ん kana first. This is different to all the other consonants though, which when doubled use the sokuon（っ）before the consonant.
The other difference here is は (hiragana for "ha") is used for the topic particle (always), rather than using わ as you'd expect from it's sound.
Other than a few other inconsistencies, most hiragana is written just as it sounds.

3. Control Panel -> Regional and Language Settings. First check "Add support for east asian languages" (if it's not set already) and hit Apply. Next just go into keyboards and add the new language/keyboard for Japanese. (Not sure if you need the WinXP CD to install it). To switch languages after install, there should be an icon in your taskbar, but an easier method is to use Left Alt+Shift (or you can change the shortcut from the languages panel).

[thevil1]

2. In this case, it's written こんにちは. There's a double N in "konnichi", but this is actually 2 separate mora, and is written using the ん kana first. This is different to all the other consonants though, which when doubled use the sokuon（っ）before the consonant.
The other difference here is は (hiragana for "ha") is used for the topic particle (always), rather than using わ as you'd expect from it's sound.
Other than a few other inconsistencies, most hiragana is written just as it sounds.

That is really confusing. Is there any way you can explain that in simpler terms?

[LeoXiao]

That is really confusing. Is there any way you can explain that in simpler terms?

It's like I said; the "kon" in "konnichiwa" has an "n" on it; and since "n" in hiragana is a separate letter from "ko", "kon" is written as "こん", with "にちは" following it. SO there are two "n" sounds, one at the end of "kon" and one at the start of "nichi".

What Doughnuts was talking about with the double consonants things is pretty much what just happened above with the two "n"s. As you see, Hiragana has "ん" as it's "n" sound, so for something like konnichiwa we can just write "ん" after "ko".
But with other consonants, it's tricker since Hiragana doesn't have letters like, say, "k" or "m", they always (with the exception of "ん") have to have a vowel (a,e,i,o,u) attached to it. So "ki" but not "k" and "mu" but not "m" work in Japanese. It's why Engrish sounds so funny, since English uses consonants that may not have an accompanying vowel, like "steel" (which I imagine would be "sutiru" in japanese).

Having understood this, there's the issue of the double consonants. With the double "n", we just used "ん" since it means "n". But with a word like "yukkuri", meaning "slow", we have to use "っ" right after the "yu" to indicate that there are two "k" sounds right next to each other. The result when speaking is that one hears a small pause after pronouncing "yuk" and then "kuri" in quick succession.
So you would write "yukkuri" like this:　”ゆっくり”
Get how it works now?

[FatPianoBoy]

今日は (kanji)
こんにちは (hiragana)
ko n ni chi ha (romaaji)

Five syllables, just like I separated it in English letters.

Also, what Leo is talking about with the っ (small tsu) is referred to as a glottal stop. If you say 'bookcase' out loud, the 'kc' is the same thing as the 'kk' in 'yukkuri.'

[Doughnuts]

That is really confusing. Is there any way you can explain that in simpler terms?

Whenever you have a double consonant in Japanese, the way it's written in kana is to place the sokuon (small "tsu") before the consonant in question. For example, a word like "katte" is written as かって as opposed to "kate" written as かて。
The "N" consonant is an exception to this rule, you don't find the sokuon appearing before な、に、ぬ、ね、の (Except some rare cases - in names). Instead, the ん kana is used for a double N. (こんなふうに)

For the "wa" part - that's a topic particle which makes the word preceding in the topic of the sentence. Konnichiwa comes from 今(こん)(now) and　日(にち)(day). Literally "this day", followed by the topic particle "は". Whenever you're noting the topic of a sentence you use this particle, it's always written with hiragana "ha", but is spoken as if it's a "wa" sound (I think intentionally to confuse beginners). The topic particle is the only place where は is spoken as "wa" - in all other words, it's spoken as "ha" like you would expect. (eg はず - "hazu" and not "wazu").

The other consistencies I mentioned are things like the へ ("he") particle, which is used to denote a direction in which an action occurs - it is usually pronounced as "e", without the "h" sound. (Ie, sounds like hiragana え). Similarly the object particle を is oft pronounced like お. (Although the hiragana を is seldom used for anything other than this.)

Sorry if that's still confusing, I can try explain again if you need.

[secretzfan]

Hey there is a great site for learn Japanese easily
http://thejapanesepage.com/

[thevil1]

Hey there is a great site for learn Japanese easily
http://thejapanesepage.com/
I find that the link in my sigg is a lot more helpful in learning Hiragana http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/self/site/hiragana/hiragana.html. It helps by linking the letter with a picture that it looks like as well as a sound. It really helps me that I made flash cards small enough to fit in my pocket to carry them around everywhere. I try to look them over when ever I have a chance, I learned almost the first 20 in about a day (get mixed up with "Te" and "Tsu", I just got that stuck in my head wrong.

[secretzfan]

I find that the link in my sigg is a lot more helpful in learning Hiragana http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/self/site/hiragana/hiragana.html. It helps by linking the letter with a picture that it looks like as well as a sound. It really helps me that I made flash cards small enough to fit in my pocket to carry them around everywhere. I try to look them over when ever I have a chance, I learned almost the first 20 in about a day (get mixed up with "Te" and "Tsu", I just got that stuck in my head wrong.

Nice site that helps with writing Japanese. I prefer the Japanese page to learn how to speak it

[thevil1]

Nice site that helps with writing Japanese. I prefer the Japanese page to learn how to speak it

It does tech you how to speak it, Click on a character, and click 'sound', and 'movie'.
It's helped me a lot in speaking it. (still messy on the hand writing though)

[secretzfan]

It does tech you how to speak it, Click on a character, and click 'sound', and 'movie'.
It's helped me a lot in speaking it. (still messy on the hand writing though)

I see but it is neat but kind of tough to use because it still has a few problems when teaching you how to speak as it does show how to combine everything into a straight sentence I will use this though too

[Langus]

Different strokes for different folks eh there secretzfan?

[Qikz]

Different strokes for different folks eh there secretzfan?

I think that's the main thing with learning actually, since everyone learns differently.

Like, one of my internet friends who I've known for about a year started learning before me, but he learnt entirely from tapes so can't actually write anything, where as I'm the polar opposite. I find writing things down makes it easier to remember, where as he finds it easier to remember by listening.

Crazy way our minds work. :heh:

[secretzfan]

I think that is understandable to every person

[thevil1]

I think that is understandable to every person

Why? I agree with him... I learn better by writing things while hearing them at the same time. That's why I recommended the site in my sig because it lets you do both. Using that site I made flash cards while listening to the sound of that character and just study them.

Here's my own new questions:
What are some commonly misused Hiragana characters, and characters that people had trouble with when learning them? One thing I have trouble with is ぬ (nu), and め (meh).
There are a few more that I have trouble with so far, but those are only two of them. Help?

Is this character's sound "Fu (foo)", or "Hu (hoo)": ふ.

Also, I still don't get how to set my computer up to type Japanese. If someone knows how and is willing to help me, I would appreciate that.

[Alchemist007]

Assuming you use Win7 or XP (might be different names): Control panel -> Language/region -> keyboard and languages -> change keyboards -> add -> Japanese. In the trey (where your time is), you should see something that says "EN," click on it and you can change between English and Japanese (and any other language you add as well). There's options for typing in Hiragana, Katakana, and using the spacebar you can make kanji as well.

[thevil1]

Assuming you use Win7 or XP (might be different names): Control panel -> Language/region -> keyboard and languages -> change keyboards -> add -> Japanese. In the trey (where your time is), you should see something that says "EN," click on it and you can change between English and Japanese (and any other language you add as well). There's options for typing in Hiragana, Katakana, and using the spacebar you can make kanji as well.

I think Win XP is considerably different then your explanation. I need an XP version of this...

[Kudryavka]

Why? I agree with him... I learn better by writing things while hearing them at the same time. That's why I recommended the site in my sig because it lets you do both. Using that site I made flash cards while listening to the sound of that character and just study them.

Here's my own new questions:
What are some commonly misused Hiragana characters, and characters that people had trouble with when learning them? One thing I have trouble with is ぬ (nu), and め (meh).
There are a few more that I have trouble with so far, but those are only two of them. Help?

Is this character's sound "Fu (foo)", or "Hu (hoo)": ふ.

Also, I still don't get how to set my computer up to type Japanese. If someone knows how and is willing to help me, I would appreciate that.
ふ is pronounced like a light Fu. Like, say Hu, but bring your lips into an O. Feel the air pass, but don't bring your upper teeth to your bottom lip like an English Fu.

Some kana that I had trouble with are い　む　き　and さ. I kept flipping い, and with the other three, the stroke order kept confusing me. き and さ are two strokes, not three (across, then the rest. I thought it was three because those characters look different in certain fonts)). Writing む was just an absolute mess for me (the circle thing is a loop, not an actual circle :p). I didn't learn correct stroke orders for all the kana until I went to an actual class. btw if you're serious about learning, I highly suggest going to a class at some point. You may be able to skid by without formal instruction with a language descended from Latin, but with Japanese, a language which was cultivated in an entirely different environment than English, you'll need a helping hand. At the very least, a class will make things easier and faster.

About typing Japanese on XP, here: http://blog.greggman.com/blog/japanese_input_on_windows_xp/ (the guide is for XP Pro, but I went through the process with my XP Home and nothing is different, so it's good to use for all XP users). To type in Japanese, select Japanese as the input language, and Microsoft IME Standard as the keyboard layout if you have a QWERTY keyboard (if you have a Japanese keyboard, choose Japanese as the keyboard layout). The necessary files are included in your computer if your comp came preloaded with XP. If you installed XP over a different OS manually, then you may need the installation CD to get the East Asian Language pack, or download it (if Windows still supports XP).

[Langus]

Here's my own new questions:
What are some commonly misused Hiragana characters, and characters that people had trouble with when learning them? One thing I have trouble with is ぬ (nu), and め (meh).
There are a few more that I have trouble with so far, but those are only two of them. Help?

Komari gives some good advice. Honestly, the only way to learn the characters is to memorize them. Write them in words over and over and eventually they will stick. There's really no other way.

[Kudryavka]

Komari gives some good advice. Honestly, the only way to learn the characters is to memorize them. Write them in words over and over and eventually they will stick. There's really no other way.
No matter what Rosetta Stone says, repetition is key. Learn it, study it, use it in context. The only thing better than that is total immersion in the country. ;)

[thevil1]

ふ is pronounced like a light Fu. Like, say Hu, but bring your lips into an O. Feel the air pass, but don't bring your bottom teeth to your upper lip like an English Fu.

Some kana that I had trouble with are い　む　き　and さ. I kept flipping い, and with the other three, the stroke order kept confusing me. き and さ are two strokes, not three (across, then the rest. I thought it was three because those characters look different in certain fonts)). Writing む was just an absolute mess for me (the circle thing is a loop, not an actual circle ). I didn't learn correct stroke orders for all the kana until I went to an actual class. btw if you're serious about learning, I highly suggest going to a class at some point. You may be able to skid by without formal instruction with a language descended from Latin, but with Japanese, a language which was cultivated in an entirely different environment than English, you'll need a helping hand. At the very least, a class will make things easier and faster.
I actually am taking a class. The teacher is so far been teaching us how to recognize characters, as well as write them. In addition to that, she is also giving us basic basic vocabulary such as greetings, basic questions, and acceptable answers.
About typing Japanese on XP, here: http://blog.greggman.com/blog/japane...on_windows_xp/ (the guide is for XP Pro, but I went through the process with my XP Home and nothing is different, so it's good to use for all XP users). To type in Japanese, select Japanese as the input language, and Microsoft IME Standard as the keyboard layout if you have a QWERTY keyboard (if you have a Japanese keyboard, choose Japanese as the keyboard layout). The necessary files are included in your computer if your comp came preloaded with XP. If you installed XP over a different OS manually, then you may need the installation CD to get the East Asian Language pack, or download it (if Windows still supports XP).
ありがとごじえます ((Thank you. :).) I think the spelling is correct) I typed it by how I thought it would be spelled. I didn't check it to make sure.

We all learned English (or what ever our native language is) by repetition (at least for the reading/writing part). For speaking, Being evolved in that Country is enough especially when where young we pick it up faster.

[Doughnuts]

but don't bring your bottom teeth to your upper lip like an English Fu.

Those damn English speakers - no wonder I never understand em. :p

[Kudryavka]

Those damn English speakers - no wonder I never understand em. :p
I am now ashamed of my speaking skills. ftw lol :p

@evil ありがとうございます・・Arigatou gozaimasu ;)

[Liddo-kun]

One thing I have trouble with is ぬ (nu), and め (meh).
There are a few more that I have trouble with so far, but those are only two of them. Help?


As said already by other people here, repetition works well.
One suggestion I can give is to use the names of anime characters during practice writing. Make a list of names, until all hiragana characters are included in the list. Write the names everyday on paper.

That method worked for me. Made a list of 31 japanese names (gradually increased to 60 names) which I wrote over and over for almost 3 months (writing Rika's name everyday isn't a chore since she's one of my favourite characters :)). Did the same for Katakana for another 3 months. Katakana is a little different from Hiragana, so I had to learn some basic rules on how to write it before starting.

[thevil1]

One suggestion I can give is to use the names of anime characters during practice writing. Make a list of names, until all hiragana characters are included in the list. Write the names everyday on paper.

That method worked for me. Made a list of 31 japanese names (gradually increased to 60 names) which I wrote over and over for almost 3 months (writing Rika's name everyday isn't a chore since she's one of my favourite characters :)). Did the same for Katakana for another 3 months. Katakana is a little different from Hiragana, so I had to learn some basic rules on how to write it before starting.

That's a good idea, I should try that. But then I also have to find the Hiragana spelling of it. Thanks.

[ryohei]

That's a good idea, I should try that. But then I also have to find the Hiragana spelling of it. Thanks.

I will write anime character names if you want.:)

sample:
Family First - Hiragana - Katakana - Kanji(Chinese character) - Meaning of family name + of 1st name

Fujibayashi Kyou - ふじばやし きょう - フジバヤシ キョウ - 藤林 杏 - Japanese wisteria forest + apricot
Fujibayashi Ryou - ふじばやし りょう - フジバヤシ リョウ - 藤林 椋 - Japanese wisteria forest + aphananthe
Sakagami Tomoyo - さかがみ ともよ - サカガミ トモヨ - 坂上 智代 - upper side of the slope + wisdom
Furukawa Nagisa - ふるかわ なぎさ - フルカワ ナギサ - 古河 渚 - old river + beach/sea side
Okazaki Tomoya - おかざき ともや - オカザキ トモヤ - 岡崎 朋也 - top of the hill + close friend
Sunohara Youhei - すのはら ようへい - スノハラ ヨウヘイ - 春原 陽平 - spring(season) field + Sun

[thevil1]

I will write anime character names if you want.:)

sample:
Family First - Hiragana - Katakana - Kanji(Chinese character) - Meaning of family name + of 1st name

Fujibayashi Kyou - ふじばやし きょう - フジバヤシ キョウ - 藤林 杏 - Japanese wisteria forest + apricot
Fujibayashi Ryou - ふじばやし りょう - フジバヤシ リョウ - 藤林 椋 - Japanese wisteria forest + aphananthe
Sakagami Tomoyo - さかがみ ともよ - サカガミ トモヨ - 坂上 智代 - upper side of the slope + wisdom
Furukawa Nagisa - ふるかわ なぎさ - フルカワ ナギサ - 古河 渚 - old river + beach/sea side
Okazaki Tomoya - おかざき ともや - オカザキ トモヤ - 岡崎 朋也 - top of the hill + close friend
Sunohara Youhei - すのはら ようへい - スノハラ ヨウヘイ - 春原 陽平 - spring(season) field + Sun
Thanks... This is a big help.

Edit: I have a Japanese Manga book called Otako Nurse (not sure of the English spelling) that a friend picked up for me, and I was thinking about just copying a few pages word for word. Although a lot of those characters are a bit advanced for me so far.

I found out about this site www.erin.ne.jp/en/ It just helps to see the culture, and everyday speaking. It also has a lessons that are nice to have and go over.

Edit: How accurate is Google Translate (www.translate.google.com)? I've tried translating to and from both languages, and from what I know it doesn't seem right.

[Kudryavka]

Google Translate is not very good quality, no machine translators are good. You can squueze some drops of meaning out of it, but you'll have to have some knowledge of how JPN works to use it best.

[Marcus H.]

The online dictionary I always use is Jim Breen's WWWJDIC (WWW Japanese Dictionary).

On its Translate Words feature, you're not given a direct machine translation; instead, you're given the words' meaning and its verb form (for verbs), formality and other stuff. If in doubt, you can look over unfamiliar kanji on its Kanji Lookup and Multi-radical Kanji functions.

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C

[Tenken's Smile]

How do you say this in Japanese? --> "I wonder if he is one of my students" or "I wonder if he is among my students"

[Qikz]

Would it be

かれは僕/私の生徒ですかな
kare wa boku/watashi no seito desu kana

I'm not sure, but I think it's that.

[ryohei]

Most neutral Answer:
彼は私の生徒だろうか
Kare wa watashi no seito darou ka

From "desu kana" expression, I imagine speaker is old gentleman.
And the choice of the first-person expression strongly depends on the context, so whether boku is good or bad cannot be judged. (watashi is formal for both of man and woman)

[idiffer]

could anyone by any chance recommend a textbook which can be easily downloaded from the internet??
i do not wish to learn to write hyerogliphics, just speak. oh, and i am a beginner of course...
help would be very appreciated)).

[Raiga]

could anyone by any chance recommend a textbook which can be easily downloaded from the internet??
i do not wish to learn to write hyerogliphics, just speak. oh, and i am a beginner of course...
help would be very appreciated)).

Learn to write it. Just... do it. I doubt there are any textbooks that will walk you through the entire thing using just Romanization. Furthermore, understanding the writing system will provide you with a good deal of insight into verb structures, noun compounds, etc. etc. Insisting on just learning how to speak/listen without learning how to read/write... if you were born and raised in Japan then fine, but if you're learning it later in life with a non-Japanese background, then it's just not happening.

If you want a downloadable textbook, http://nihongoresources.com has a good sized (300+ pages) one up for free download. Of course the book stops using Romanization after the intro chapter on Hiragana.

[thevil1]

could anyone by any chance recommend a textbook which can be easily downloaded from the internet??
i do not wish to learn to write hyerogliphics, just speak. oh, and i am a beginner of course...
help would be very appreciated)).

Text books can get expensive, If your not taking a class, I would recommend some free web sites that are a lot more fun then just reading. I recomend you make flash cards of the
ひらがな (Hiragana) characters using Yoshida Institute (http://www.yosida.com/en/hiragana.html), and genki (http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/self/site/hiragana/hiragana.html). For learning vocab in a fun way I highly suggest Erin's Challenge (https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/). Erin's Challenge is a lot of fun, and if you do the exercises and the extra lesson vids that go along with the skits, that can be an excellent way to learn. I'm taking a class, so I have a text book, but I would not be at the level I'm at without those sites.

[Kudryavka]

could anyone by any chance recommend a textbook which can be easily downloaded from the internet??
i do not wish to learn to write hyerogliphics, just speak. oh, and i am a beginner of course...
help would be very appreciated)).
If you just want to speak basic Japanese and don't care for reading it, I highly suggest the Japanese for Dummies book - it's specifically written for people who just need to know how to get around Japan, and it's written with a tourist's interests in mind (its intro clearly says it's not for people who are planning on majoring in Japanese and the like :heh:). The book is pretty hefty though, about 5 lbs; there's a cheaper, pocket book version under the Dummies brand, but that one only teaches basic phrases, not how the language works like the full version does. Also, no Japanese characters at all (which is usually a very bad thing, but for a fleeting interest in the subject is okay ;)). The full version can probably be found in your local library, it's where I found my first copy before I bought one of my own.

And imho free downloadable good books from the internet are scarce and few. Best to start raising some bucks.

[idiffer]

thanks all of you))
i'll check out all the suggestions, if i can find the time.
Raiga
i knew there would be someone like you. i know what i want and hyerogliphics are not that. i just want to undestand raw anime...

[Raiga]

thanks all of you))
i'll check out all the suggestions, if i can find the time.
Raiga
i knew there would be someone like you. i know what i want and hyerogliphics are not that. i just want to undestand raw anime...

Good luck reading signs in anime.

I gave you the advice I did because nobody who isn't serious about learning a language, nobody who doesn't truly love and respect the language itself, will actually be able to learn it. It's not a matter of ability; it's a matter of motivation. I mean feel free to think to yourself, "Whatever, I'll just learn enough to understand anime" but that doesn't mean it'll get you anywhere.

But whatever. It's your choice. I'm just wondering if you'll give up in two weeks or three.

[thevil1]

How do you say "AMONG" or "one of"???

2/ Is it appropriate to use "san" (or any honorific) after a FULL name? For example: Masuda Takeshi-san (Matsuda is last name, Takeshi is first name).

Not sure on the first part, but as for using san, from my understanding it is used in both first and last. If you don't know the person well, you would refer to him/her by their family name (last name) using the 'san' ending. Same for the first name but only if they are close to you.
If anyone else knows better then please correct me.

[Orizuru]

彼は私の生徒の中/内の一人だろうか
kare wa watashi no seito no naka/uti no hitori darou ka

if you should let me know this situation in detail, I will be able to give a full translation:)

[Kudryavka]

Good luck reading signs in anime.

I gave you the advice I did because nobody who isn't serious about learning a language, nobody who doesn't truly love and respect the language itself, will actually be able to learn it. It's not a matter of ability; it's a matter of motivation. I mean feel free to think to yourself, "Whatever, I'll just learn enough to understand anime" but that doesn't mean it'll get you anywhere.

But whatever. It's your choice. I'm just wondering if you'll give up in two weeks or three.
^This. Sorry Diff, but it's the truth. Learning a new language is no joke. The best way you can just learn enough Japanese to watch raws is to go and live in
Japan for a year; it'd be impossible not to learn the spoken, everyday language:heh:. Not that that's a good idea unless you have family/friends living there or like backpacking, since any other option would involve spending a lot of money and/or having to work there (from what I've heard, it's not easy for foreigners to get decent full time jobs in most countries, because of labor laws and whatnot).

[thevil1]

http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.global/logo/2009/03/05.jpg
What does the AS header mean?
Also, Notice the small letters under the word 'anime'. What do those mean?
Also, I know that often Japanese will have a word or sentence then a small word or sentence after it. Why do they do that? Get my question?

[ryohei]

http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.global/logo/2009/03/05.jpg
What does the AS header mean?
Also, Notice the small letters under the word 'anime'. What do those mean?
Also, I know that often Japanese will have a word or sentence then a small word or sentence after it. Why do they do that? Get my question?

好き is suki, means like. アニメ is anime. This header means Anime Suki(like anime).

>a small word after a word or sentence......
you mean ruby character?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character

[thevil1]

好き is suki, means like. アニメ is anime. This header means Anime Suki(like anime).

>a small word after a word or sentence......
you mean ruby character?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_character

Thanks... So it's correct to say that Ruby characters are the equivalent of accent marks in English?

[Marcus H.]

Nope. Ruby characters only exist on languages with logographic characters like Chinese, Japanese and Korean.
And perhaps Egyptian Hieroglyphs. :heh:

[Kudryavka]

fyi they're also called furigana in Japanese. I've never heard them called rubi.

[thevil1]

What's the difference between "kun", "san", and "chan"?

[Hooves]

What's the difference between "kun", "san", and "chan"?

San:

Overview: This is the most common. It can be used on boys or girls. It can be used in formal and (somewhat) informal situations. Pretty much, san is your fail safe when you don’t know which one ot use. You probably won’t get in trouble if you use this one, so it’s good to use with frequency.

Do Not: Refer to yourself as [your name]-san. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.

Other Uses: You can also attach san to some nouns, usually jobs. For example, booksellers are called honya-san. I know that some uses like this are more common than others so I’d say it’s best not to jump to conclusions and start turning every noun you see into name-honorific enders.

Trivial Fact: Ever notice how a lot of Japanese usernames on the net end with three? I just read this on Wikipedia, and it completely makes sense. Since the number three in Japanese is san, some people use this to end their names. I think it’s clever, anyways.

Also, in the Kansai area of Japan (they speak a different dialect, kind of like how people in Texas would have “southern accents” in America), some people use han instead of san (apparently). I can’t confirm this from experience, but that’s what I read.
Sama

Overview: Most likely, you’ll never run into an appropriate situation to use sama, unless of course you want to be a little sarcastic. The only time you’ll be using sama is if 1) you’re working for a company and you’re talking to a customre, or 2) you want to be sarcastic about someone who thinks really highly about themselves.

Do Not: EVER refer to yourself as sama…well, that is, unless you’re making fun of yourself. Otherwise, there’s no reason to do it, and if you do it with a serious face, people will think you’re a big stuck up snob.

Trivial Fact: Aparently, there’s also a “Chama” version of sama. Typically, you would use this when talking to someone who is older.
Kun

Overview: This is where you start getting more casual. Kun is primarily used when refering to other males, usually by someone of high status to someone younger / lower status than them. A good example would be a teacher talking to a (usually male) student. Some (masculine) females get called (name)-kun, though this is less common.

Do Not: Use this on someone of higher status than you. That means teachers, people that are older than you, parents, etc. You get the picture. If you aren’t sure, then just use san – at least you’ll be safe that way.
Chan

Overview: Now we’re in deep waters. Chan is primarily used on children, female family members, lovers, and close friends. Really, it’s a term of indearment. Often times, one’s name will be shortened to add chan to it. For example, I get the Ko-chan treatment instead of Koichi-chan, which just sounds awkward.

Do Not: (once again), use it on anyone of higher status than you. If you are using chan, the person should be much younger, or you better know that person really well.

Trivial Fact: Unlike all the other name honorifics, it’s actually not too horrible to refer to yourself and add the chan to the end. Children do this a lot, but so do some adults. Adding chan to a name can sometimes become a nickname that’s used instead of the real name, at which point it becomes acceptable to refer to yourself while using the honorific.

Another interesting thing about chan is that it is paired up with ojii and obaa (oji-chan / oba-chan), roughly meaning grandma and grandpa. Once Gma and Gpa get old, they come full circle, and you get to use the honorific reserved for children on them. Poor guys.

[thevil1]

You know, I always wondered that myself! I thought "chan" was used for when you were a baby since you could not exactly announce the "k" or "s" correctly. So "chan" works perfectly.

The reason I'm wondering is because "Oniichan" (brother) is for a male, and Oniisan (sister) is female. But in all the Animes' I've watched, they scramble it around. A female will sometimes have the 'chan', and a male 'san' etc... The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with formalities. ie: Family name (more formal) is one where is first name (close friends) is another.

But it just keeps bothering me that I don't know. SOMEONE HELP.

[Kudryavka]

The reason I'm wondering is because "Oniichan" (brother) is for a male, and Oniisan (sister) is female. But in all the Animes' I've watched, they scramble it around. A female will sometimes have the 'chan', and a male 'san' etc... The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with formalities. ie: Family name (more formal) is one where is first name (close friends) is another.

But it just keeps bothering me that I don't know. SOMEONE HELP.
Whether you call an older brother onii-san, onii-chan, or onii-sama is a completely personal choice, usually reflecting your relationship with him (I don't think the last one is horribly popular though, seeing how siblings act :heh:). You'd probably use different honorifics for each of your brothers if you have more than one (e.g. calling your oldest brother onii-chan, and your second oldest onii-san). btw onee-san is older sister, not onii-san. San is not a male honorific.

I think it'll be easier to see if I write it.
お兄さん・おにいさん・onii-san・older brother
お姉さん・おねえさん・onee-san・older sister

See how the difference of gender is in the "nee" or "nii", not in the honorific? The honorific is the same in both examples, being "san" in this case. And also, onii-san is only used to address your older brother directly; when talking about your brother to someone else, you'd say 私の兄　（わたしのあに） (watashi no ani). I've heard little kids use the term onii-san in conversation, but I personally think it's a bit childish (like using "Mom" instead of "my mom/mother" in conversation with someone other than your mother).

[Ansalem]

The reason I'm wondering is because "Oniichan" (brother) is for a male, and Oniisan (sister) is female. But in all the Animes' I've watched, they scramble it around. A female will sometimes have the 'chan', and a male 'san' etc... The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with formalities. ie: Family name (more formal) is one where is first name (close friends) is another.

But it just keeps bothering me that I don't know. SOMEONE HELP.

You're mishearing. Oneesan(chan) is older sister and Oniisan(chan) is older brother. The description Hooves posted for the honorifics is pretty accurate.

[thevil1]

So in simple terms, san, chan, and kun are basically all the same? What about if your talking first and last names?

[Hooves]

So in simple terms, san, chan, and kun are basically all the same? What about if your talking first and last names?

Whenever you meet a complete stranger and learn their name, you must always say their last name, if you say there first name, they acknowledge you as a friend, and it makes it pretty clear to everyone that you two are buds. But if you say the person's last name without them accepting it, it would be pretty disrespectful.

Thats how I think it goes.

[thevil1]

Kun

Overview: This is where you start getting more casual. Kun is primarily used when refering to other males, usually by someone of high status to someone younger / lower status than them. A good example would be a teacher talking to a (usually male) student. Some (masculine) females get called (name)-kun, though this is less common.

Do Not: Use this on someone of higher status than you. That means teachers, people that are older than you, parents, etc. You get the picture. If you aren’t sure, then just use san – at least you’ll be safe that way.


I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoyo with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?

[Hooves]

I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoyo with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?

Since Tomoyo is basically featured as the strongest female in the entire school. People refer her as -kun.

The male to male is "primarily" used, but its not used like that the entire time, so it differs at certain points. But as said in the -kun tag that it says. Some (masculine) females get called (name)-kun, which means that other females can say it, if its that term.

[thevil1]

What I meant was Tomoya Okazaki, not Tomoyo... (my bad for confusing you lol)
So the question should be...
I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoya with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?

[Hooves]

What I meant was Tomoya Okazaki, not Tomoyo... (my bad for confusing you lol)

Well it is easy to get confused by Tomoyo and Tomoya

Ok if its Tomoya's case, then Nagisa is using this to effect

someone of high status to someone younger / lower status than them

Since Nagisa flunked the same grade a few times, she should be older then Tomoya. The male to male is as said above "primarily" used for the purpose of male to male, but it can be used for the other reasons in the tag as well.

[Kudryavka]

What I meant was Tomoya Okazaki, not Tomoyo... (my bad for confusing you lol)
So the question should be...
I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoya with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?
Kun is not male to male, anyone can use kun towards a male. I'll bet that Nagi calls Tomoya -kun b/c he's her *spoiler* (in the anime at least), and also because she's older. She's not terribly close to Sunohara, so she just calls him -san (she actually doesn't have to, since Sunohara is younger than her, but that's just how she is, she's terribly polite).

And if you're wondering why Sunohara and Tomoya don't use honorifics towards each other, it's because they're delinquents, and they have that weird love-hate relationship (they hang out, but they don't respect each other; Sunohara thinks they're friends, but Tomoya says otherwise. It's really complicated, lol).

[Orizuru]

kun(くん:君),chan(ちゃん),san(さん),sama(さま:様),etc...... they are called "keishou(敬称)",which are used to express respect to him/her.
These nuance is different by which keishou are used:)

kun: this is mainly used to familiar male.
chan:this is mainly used to familiar female and young children.
san:this is used to the person you meet for the first time.this is also used to familiar person to express general respect.
sama:this is the most respectful word used to high-ranking person. ;)

[LeoXiao]

"Sama" also refers to royalty or gods, examples being Kami-sama or O-sama. My mom's surname is 王 (meaning king) and while she was in Japan people would call her O-sama sometimes. I guess they couldn't help it.

[MAmb910]

I find Japanese a fascinating language and although I am just a beginner and have a very long way to go, I hope to one day be able to converse with confidence and possibly a little eloquence.

[thevil1]

"Sama" also refers to royalty or gods, examples being Kami-sama or O-sama. My mom's surname is 王 (meaning king) and while she was in Japan people would call her O-sama sometimes. I guess they couldn't help it.

That makes sense, because in Higurashi No Naku Kara Ni, they keep always going back to, and refer to *spoiler*
the Oyisama curse (I think it's spelled correctly)
Thanks for all your help, I think I understand it now.

One thing that I still have trouble with is the small words and characters that often fall after another word or letter. I had a native speaker try and explain it to me, and I still couldn't understand how they work. H・E・L・P

[Raiga]

the Oyisama curse (I think it's spelled correctly)
Thanks for all your help, I think I understand it now.

One thing that I still have trouble with is the small words and characters that often fall after another word or letter. I had a native speaker try and explain it to me, and I still couldn't understand how they work. H・E・L・P

That would be Oyashiro-sama (there is no "yi" syllable in modern Japanese).

There are a couple kinds of small characters; the ones generally used are っ、ゃ、ゅ、ょ (other characters like the small versions of vowels are used in extended Katakana and informal writing/dialogue to indicate someone's shouting or drawing out a syllable).

っ is a tricky one so I'll save that for later. ゃゅょ are small versions of the y-column syllables and they combine with the い vowel sound syllables. It's much easier to give examples.

き = ki
きゃ = ki + small ya = kya
きゅ = ki + small yu = kyu
きょ = ki + small yo = kyo

に = ni
にゃ = ni + small ya = nya
にゅ = ni + small yu = nyu
にょ = ni + small yo = nyo

し and ち seem like exceptions due to English phonetics. They go:

し = shi
しゃ = sha (shya)
しゅ = shu (shyu)
しょ = sho (shyo)

ち = chi
ちゃ = cha (chya)
ちゅ = chu (chyu)
ちょ = cho (chyo)

(the romaji in parentheses is never used in any romanization standard that I know of; I only included them to make their relationship to the y-syllables a bit clearer. If you try to pronounce them you'll notice that the y-sound naturally slurs into the consonant)

The っ is a little tricky. It represents a "long consonant." By itself it represents a stoppage of air known as the "glottal stop" (you can look it up on Wikipedia). Otherwise, it extends the consonant that comes after it.

For stop consonants such as t, k, g, d, p, and b (consonants that involve stopping the air briefly and then releasing it) you simply extend the stop-- in other words, you hold the air in for a bit longer before letting it out. In romaji this is represented by doubling the consonant.

きと = kito
きっと = kitto

When your tongue rises up behind your teeth at the start of the "t" sound, all you do is hold your tongue there for a split second longer. The same goes for other words involving long stop consonants, such as はっぴゃく (happyaku; hold your lips together a bit longer at the beginning of the p) or いっかい (ikkai; hold the air a bit longer in the back of your throat at the start of the k).

For fricative consonants such as s and z (consonants that involve releasing a steady stream of air through the mouth) all you do is keep the consonant sound going a bit longer; i.e. "hiss" the s a bit.

いしょ = isho
いっしょ = issho

The っ is not used with m- or n-syllables, in which case the moraic ん is used, like in みんな (minna) or あんまり (anmari). Don't quote me on this, but I also can't remember ever seeing it in front of a g- or b-syllable, but I might be misremembering.

I think this post is long enough so I'll leave it at that. Hope that was helpful.

[thevil1]

That would be Oyashiro-sama (there is no "yi" syllable in modern Japanese).

There are a couple kinds of small characters; the ones generally used are っ、ゃ、ゅ、ょ (other characters like the small versions of vowels are used in extended Katakana and informal writing/dialogue to indicate someone's shouting or drawing out a syllable).

っ is a tricky one so I'll save that for later. ゃゅょ are small versions of the y-column syllables and they combine with the い vowel sound syllables. It's much easier to give examples.

き = ki
きゃ = ki + small ya = kya
きゅ = ki + small yu = kyu
きょ = ki + small yo = kyo

に = ni
にゃ = ni + small ya = nya
にゅ = ni + small yu = nyu
にょ = ni + small yo = nyo

し and ち seem like exceptions due to English phonetics. They go:

し = shi
しゃ = sha (shya)
しゅ = shu (shyu)
しょ = sho (shyo)

ち = chi
ちゃ = cha (chya)
ちゅ = chu (chyu)
ちょ = cho (chyo)

(the romaji in parentheses is never used in any romanization standard that I know of; I only included them to make their relationship to the y-syllables a bit clearer. If you try to pronounce them you'll notice that the y-sound naturally slurs into the consonant)

The っ is a little tricky. It represents a "long consonant." By itself it represents a stoppage of air known as the "glottal stop" (you can look it up on Wikipedia). Otherwise, it extends the consonant that comes after it.

For stop consonants such as t, k, g, d, p, and b (consonants that involve stopping the air briefly and then releasing it) you simply extend the stop-- in other words, you hold the air in for a bit longer before letting it out. In romaji this is represented by doubling the consonant.

きと = kito
きっと = kitto

When your tongue rises up behind your teeth at the start of the "t" sound, all you do is hold your tongue there for a split second longer. The same goes for other words involving long stop consonants, such as はっぴゃく (happyaku; hold your lips together a bit longer at the beginning of the p) or いっかい (ikkai; hold the air a bit longer in the back of your throat at the start of the k).

For fricative consonants such as s and z (consonants that involve releasing a steady stream of air through the mouth) all you do is keep the consonant sound going a bit longer; i.e. "hiss" the s a bit.

いしょ = isho
いっしょ = issho

The っ is not used with m- or n-syllables, in which case the moraic ん is used, like in みんな (minna) or あんまり (anmari). Don't quote me on this, but I also can't remember ever seeing it in front of a g- or b-syllable, but I might be misremembering.

I think this post is long enough so I'll leave it at that. Hope that was helpful.


That makes more sense to me the way you explained it, can you have the accent marks in with those combos? ’’, 。(up on top) etc...

[Raiga]

Well, you shouldn't really think of them as accent marks because they don't mark any sort of accent. The dakuten and handakuten mark voicing.

By voicing I mean this: the consonant "k" is pronounced unvoiced or "breathily." That is, you make the shape with your mouth and force air through, but you don't really use your vocal cords. On the other hand, when you vibrate your vocal cords but use the same mouth motions, you get the consonant "g." In the end, however, it's just another consonant; there's no reason for it to behave differently from any other consonant.

Hence you could also say ぎゃぎゅぎょ and ぴゃぴゅぴょ etc.

Wikipedia has a comprehensive table of all legal hiragana and hiragana combinations, and the http://nihongoresources.com grammar book also provides an excellent introduction to Japanese phonetics.

Here's the page on Hiragana. It even has audio files to teach you the pronunciation. (http://www.nihongoresources.com/language/lessons/lesson-00/hiragana.html)

[thevil1]

そです・・・　Next question!　
Can someone give me a run down on Kanji please?
I have Hiragana and Katakana down pat, and can read it (at a 1st grader's level), but I notice that Kanji is really holding me back. I have a textbook, but it doesn't go over Kanji the way it goes over Hiragana and Katakana.
ありがと
Also one thing I've been wondering is when I'm reading Japanese, I have trouble noticing when words begin and end since they don't seem to have.

（私はこのトピックで多くの質問を求めるのが怖い。私は、トロールを考慮する必要はありません 。）

[Kudryavka]

Well, kanji is a lot more complex than kana. I assume your textbook goes over the history of kanji, the various readings?

As for lack of spaces, just gotta learn to deal. One of those things where you avoid it by learning it.

[Raiga]

Kanji helps with the lack of spacing. Once you get more used to Japanese grammar, it's a lot easier to spot word boundaries. Nouns are generally followed by a particle to indicate their function in a sentence, adjectives end in い or な while verbs can be followed by all sorts of 送り仮名 (okurigana) to indicate their conjugation. Kanji actually help by condensing meaning into one unit. Far easier than dealing with a string of phonetic symbols. Of course, often times there will be long strings of kanji that you just sorta have to slog through, but that usually only happens with long official names. Mostly there will be kana to space out the kanji, give you breathing room, and tell you where word boundaries are.

As for learning kanji, I'm not sure how your text teaches it, but the way to go is to understand the more complex kanji as being made up of common parts and components. It's easier to remember a complex kanji this way; instead of thinking of it as fifteen different strokes, you can think of it as 3 or 4 sub-parts, plus a few extra strokes if needed. The brain deals with "chunks" of information much more efficiently; just like when you are fluent with English, you read words as the whole word, and don't really see the individual letters if you're reading quickly. That's because your brain "chunks" the information together; rather than seeing "w-o-r-d" you see the single unit "word." If you do the same for kanji it will become far easier.

There are pretty strict rules for writing strokes and such, as well as very common components such as the box/frame. 口 is written first with a vertical stroke on the left, then a single bent stroke that goes along the top and right side and ending with a small hook pointed inwards, and finally with a horizontal stroke at the bottom, slightly above the bottom of the vertical strokes. Three strokes, and this frame forms the basis for kanji like 日 and 目 and 国 and so forth. All written with the same three strokes.

Therefore if you start with basic kanji such as 人土工口日天小大王女子 (to name just a few!) you can then see how they join together with other parts to make more complex kanji such as 全 or 好 or 今 or 朝 etc.

Just to give one last example (using the last kanji I mentioned):

朝

You can think of this as twelve strokes that you have to memorize. Or you can think of it as being made up of four smaller kanji: 十 meaning "ten" (x2), 日 meaning "day/sun," and 月 meaning "month/moon."

十
日月
十


Incidentally this means "morning." The tens don't really contribute to the meaning, but can you see how this sort of represents the border between day and night (the sun and the moon)? If you start simple, internalize the basic kanji, and work your way up, you'll have a much easier time (not that it won't be hard!). In fact, after a certain point you'll even be able to roughly guess the meaning of kanji you've never seen before!

[thevil1]

This helps a lot, but in everyday life, how are they used, and how are they meant to be read?
From the way you described it, I understand that each symbol represents a word/object, and not sounds like Hiragana/Katakana あいうえお/アイウエオ. Is that correct? what about when writing? If I were to write a letter or receive a hand written letter, do those contain Kanji?

[Kudryavka]

This helps a lot, but in everyday life, how are they used, and how are they meant to be read?
From the way you described it, I understand that each symbol represents a word/object, and not sounds like Hiragana/Katakana あいうえお/アイウエオ. Is that correct? what about when writing? If I were to write a letter or receive a hand written letter, do those contain Kanji?
Kanji is integrated into everyday life; kanji actually was conceived first, and kana has evolved from various kanji. The way I learned it, Japanese has been a spoken language for millennia, and Chinese characters were "borrowed" and used by Japanese merchants. At first, the merchants had to be fluent in Chinese (Chinese was the language of business in East Asia at the time) to do well; the Japanese later put their own pronunciations on the Chinese symbols, and thus was born the Japanese readings of Chinese symbols.

In short, kanji are useful shortcuts to writing (can be crudely compared to English contractions). Kanji are sinographs, so yes they represent ideas.

[Hooves]

私 食 熟糧 昨
(I ate Melon Bread last night :heh:)

Kanji is integrated into everyday life; kanji actually was conceived first, and kana has evolved from various kanji. The way I learned it, Japanese has been a spoken language for millennia, and Chinese characters were "borrowed" and used by Japanese merchants. At first, the merchants had to be fluent in Chinese (Chinese was the language of business in East Asia at the time) to do well; the Japanese later put their own pronunciations on the Chinese symbols, and thus was born the Japanese readings of Chinese symbols.

In short, kanji are useful shortcuts to writing (can be crudely compared to English contractions). Kanji are sinographs, so yes they represent ideas.

Hmm.. Thanks for the information Komari :D

[thevil1]

It might help me understand fully if I can see an example and an explanation of all the ins and outs of that example....

[Raiga]

English contractions... well that might be one way to think of them but I'd stay away from that comparison. Really there's no English equivalent or even near approximation of the role of Kanji.

Kanji are used for nouns and the main bodies (meaning-containing parts) of verbs and adjectives. They carry the ideas and lexical meanings, while the hiragana fill in the gaps and relate the words grammatically. For example:

難しい is an い-adjective meaning "difficult" (read むずかしい). The kanji 難 is the part that really represents the idea of "difficult," whereas the okurigana しい indicate that the word is an adjective and allow you to add adjective endings onto the word. For example, if I wanted to say "not difficult" I would change 難しい to 難しくない (むずかしくない) or if I wanted to say "was difficult" I would change 難しい to 難しかった (むずかしかった). Verbs are pretty much the same as い-adjectives when it comes to kanji/okurigana.

Now, if I wanted to use the same kanji as a noun, I could have for example 難度 (read なんど) meaning "difficulty level." As a noun, this would most likely be followed by a particle such as は、の、を、に、へ or so on. For example, if I wanted to say "the difficulty level was difficult" (a silly sentence but bear with me) it would be something like 難度は難しかった。

Now, how do I know that 難 is read なん in the noun but むずか in the adjective? Well the rule is usually, in nouns and kanji compounds (more than one kanji next to each other) the Chinese reading (on'yomi 音読み) is used, whereas in verbs and adjectives and oftentimes single-kanji nouns, the native Japanese reading (kun'yomi 訓読み) is used. For the character 難, なん is the Chinese on'yomi, while むずか is the native kun'yomi reading.

Finally an example sentence:

昨日私は大きくて綺麗な花火を見ました。

昨日 (kinou, adv. "yesterday")
私は (watashi wa, noun+particle "I [topic]")
大きくて (ookikute, い-adj.+okurigana "big (and)")
綺麗な (kirei na, な-adj.+particle, "beautiful [describes]")
花火を (hanabi wo, kanji compound noun + particle "fireworks [direct object]")
見ました (mimashita, verb+okurigana "saw")。

The particle は indicates that the noun before it is the topic/context of the sentence (we are discussing things relevant to "I"). な connects the な-adjective that comes before it to the noun that comes after it. "Beautiful" is describing "fireworks." を indicates that the noun that comes before it is the direct object of the verb (what did I see? I saw fireworks hence "fireworks" is the direct object of the verb "saw").

Now, Japanese is pretty flexible, and especially when you're still learning, many words that technically have Kanji will be written with hiragana or sometimes katakana (for emphasis). Many introductory textbooks also write Japanese spaced; for example, the above sentence might look like きのう　わたしは　おおきくて　きれいな　はなびを　みました。 All I can say is... if you work hard and stay interested, you'll get used to it pretty soon.

As you get more familiar with Japanese grammar, the writing system and use of kanji and kana will naturally start to make sense. For now there's not much more I can explain without regurgitating everything I've learned about Japanese grammar so far.

[risingstar3110]

It would be great if someone here can give me some good (and fairly basic) lines for the start and end of a semi-formal and short Japanese presentation.

Maybe a bit about introduction myself in Japanese and so. As long as the ending is not about asking "shitsumon ga arimasu ka..." because i will prefer not to have any questions...

Many thanks in advance

[thevil1]

It would be great if someone here can give me some good (and fairly basic) lines for the start and end of a semi-formal and short Japanese presentation.

Maybe a bit about introduction myself in Japanese and so. As long as the ending is not about asking "shitsumon ga arimasu ka..." because i will prefer not to have any questions...

Many thanks in advance

To formally introduce yourself you would say:

はじめまして(your name)です (Hajimemashite, (your name)-desu) Nice to meet you/hello, I'm (name goes here).

To ask someones name:

おなまですか (Onamedesuka) What is your name?

Hope this helps a bit :D
You might want basic vocabulary if your giving a presentation...
What words do you think you'll need?

[Hooves]

To formally introduce yourself you would say:

はじめまして(your name)です (Hajimemashite, (your name)-desu) Nice to meet you/hello, I'm (name goes here).

To ask someones name:

おなまですか (Onamedesuka) What is your name?

:eyespin: So dizzy from trying to understand it :heh:

[thevil1]

:eyespin: So dizzy from trying to understand it :heh:

What's wrong with it?:upset:

[Raiga]

To formally introduce yourself you would say:

はじめまして(your name)です (Hajimemashite, (your name)-desu) Nice to meet you/hello, I'm (name goes here).

To ask someones name:

おなまですか (Onamedesuka) What is your name?

Hope this helps a bit :D
You might want basic vocabulary if your giving a presentation...
What words do you think you'll need?

"Name" is actually 名前（なまえ） so using your wording that would be お名前は何ですか（おなまえはなんですか）。

For an intro I'd use something like はじめまして、[name]と申します。どうぞよろしくお願いします。 But I'm not too sure what you'd use in this situation. Especially if you're giving it to your class, you're probably not meeting them for the first time, so perhaps a こんにちは、[name]です would do the trick. For the end, I'm not sure? 以上です（いじょうです） maybe? Or if your presentation has a natural ending point I'm sure that would be fine.

[risingstar3110]

Thank you everyone

"Name" is actually 名前（なまえ） so using your wording that would be お名前は何ですか（おなまえはなんですか）。

For an intro I'd use something like はじめまして、[name]と申します。どうぞよろしくお願いします。 But I'm not too sure what you'd use in this situation. Especially if you're giving it to your class, you're probably not meeting them for the first time, so perhaps a こんにちは、[name]です would do the trick. For the end, I'm not sure? 以上です（いじょうです） maybe? Or if your presentation has a natural ending point I'm sure that would be fine.
以上です would be handy. I don't want people to look at me, wondering if i have just forgotten the rest of the presentation.

But should i have an "dakara, yoroshiku onegai shi masu" after the introduction (of name and "watashi wa ganbarareru") if it's an presentation in front of a class?

You are my saviour

[Raiga]

I'm really unsure of the details of your assignment so I don't really know what would be appropriate... I'm still learning myself, for that matter, so it might be best to wait for someone else with more experience.

[Kudryavka]

Thank you everyone


以上です would be handy. I don't want people to look at me, wondering if i have just forgotten the rest of the presentation.

But should i have an "dakara, yoroshiku onegai shi masu" after the introduction (of name and "watashi wa ganbarareru") if it's an presentation in front of a class?

You are my saviour
I'm not sure about saying "I'm doing my best!" in a presentation, but okay. Maybe "Watashi wa ganbaremashita!" at the end?

I would drop the "dakara". It's probably acceptable, but just "Yoroshiku onegaishimasu" works fine. It's an assignment, so you want to use what you know and get a good grade, try not to reach into a dark abyss of more advanced language skills. I'm an overachiever like yourself, learned it the hard way. ;)

[ryohei]

はじめまして。[name]と申します。
Hajimemashite [name] to moushimasu.
Nice to meet you, I'm [name].

[place]から来ました。
[place] kara kimashita.
I'm from [place]

(more detail information or comments.)

拙い日本語ですみませんがよろしくお願いします。
tsutanai nihongo de sumimasen ga yoroshiku onegai shimasu
I'm sorry for my poor Japanese.(yoroshiku... is difficult to translate. it's magic spell.:))

*neck bowing*
end

"yoroshiku... + bowing" makes Japanese feel "His speech has finished." strongly.


Even if your Japanese is very good you had better say your Japanese is poor, because it is honorific expression.:)

[risingstar3110]

はじめまして。[name]と申します。
Hajimemashite [name] to moushimasu.
Nice to meet you, I'm [name].

[place]から来ました。
[place] kara kimashita.
I'm from [place]

(more detail information or comments.)

拙い日本語ですみませんがよろしくお願いします。
tsutanai nihongo de sumimasen ga yoroshiku onegai shimasu
I'm sorry for my poor Japanese.(yoroshiku... is difficult to translate. it's magic spell.:))

*neck bowing*
end

"yoroshiku... + bowing" makes Japanese feel "His speech has finished." strongly.


Even if your Japanese is very good you had better say your Japanese is poor, because it is honorific expression.:)
Very good? How's about "My Japanese is terrible so don't throw me out of the window" (i will prefer to say so before thinking mine is good enough).... :D

OK thank. The "tsutanai nihongo de sumimasen ga" gonna be hard to remember. But it do make sense

[thevil1]

I know that Kanji are chinese characters, but how similar are the Japanese uses of Kanji from the original Chinese uses of it.
In other words, If I know Kanji, how much Chinese would I theoretically be able to understand?

[Raiga]

Put it this way: if you decide to start learning Chinese after becoming fluent in Japanese (and in using kanji etc.), you'll have an advantage, but don't expect to understand anything off the bat.

Chinese and Japanese have drastically different grammar and to a lesser extent very different phonetics (especially when it comes to tones in Chinese). Most kanji (hanzi in Chinese) mean about the same thing or refer to similar general ideas, so you may be able to get the gist of a passage of Chinese text, but I doubt you'll be able to get more than a vague, general idea.

There are definitely similarities in kanji and hanzi pronunciations (note: only similarities) but over a millennium has passed since Chinese characters were first introduced to Japan. There has been plenty of divergence in that time, since both Chinese and Japanese have been developing and changing in their own separate directions. Furthermore, what Japanese gained from Chinese was essentially only vocabulary and a writing system; the grammar didn't change much at all. You'll still have to learn a completely new grammatical system if you want to learn Chinese.

Think of it this way: imagine somebody decided to create a new language, and took all the nouns and adjectives from English. However, they came up with all the verbs themselves, and also came up with plenty of new nouns and adjectives. What's more, although they write the English nouns and adjectives the same way, they pronounce all of the letters a bit differently. Also, the words in a sentence are in a completely different order, and there are loads of new grammatical helper words that you've never seen before.

That's not at all what the relationship between Chinese and Japanese is but it's a good way to think about it.

[Sing4ever9]

I'm having a tad bit of trouble in my Japanese II class when it comes to speaking the language. However, whenever I read or write Hiragana or Katakana (I'm also starting to catch on to a little bit of Kanji), I'm fairly good. For my friend, it's vice versa; she's good at speaking, not so good at writing and reading. My sensei said it was because I aim for accuracy more than my friend does (I do, I'm just a perfectionist like that XD).

You see, whenever I try and speak it, I always hesitate because I'm unsure about the placement of the words. I know that it goes subject object verb, but somehow it all jumbles up in my head. Is there anyway I can help make myself unconfused?

[thevil1]

I'm taking a beginners class (101), and I have similar problems. I can speak it (sort of), but my big problem is spelling, and Katakana. I can read Hiragana almost perfectly, still slow, but I'm gaining speed. I am having a lot of trouble learning Katakana. My teacher gave me a copy of a restaurant menu in Japanese (katakana) and she said to translate it and she'll help me if I have any problems.
I find it helps both vocab, and sentence structure if you read a book. It's damn hard if your new at the language, but I find it very helpful. I have two books in Japanese.

[Raiga]

I'm not very good at speaking either but I think the best thing to do is just practice, practice, practice. Though it's gradual progress, if I look back on it I've definitely improved my speaking skills since I started taking Japanese this semester. Spending an hour every weekday in a Japanese-speaking environment will basically force you to eventually get better. It takes time for the brain to incorporate knowledge from the information sector of the brain into the natural language sector of the brain, but all you can do is just keep training it until it happens.

Immerse yourself, too. Try to think in Japanese. Go into "Japanese mode" when you're in class (and outside of class, too!). You are no longer an English speaker who uses Japanese when the sensei calls on you; you are a Japanese speaker when you're in Japanese class. It's all about your state of mind when you approach it. Being able to speak a language quickly and with fluency requires you to really integrate it into the deepest level of your mind.

Disclaimer being that this is essentially just how I look at things. May or may not work for you, but in any case, good luck with your studies!

[thevil1]

I'm not very good at speaking either but I think the best thing to do is just practice, practice, practice. Though it's gradual progress, if I look back on it I've definitely improved my speaking skills since I started taking Japanese this semester. Spending an hour every weekday in a Japanese-speaking environment will basically force you to eventually get better. It takes time for the brain to incorporate knowledge from the information sector of the brain into the natural language sector of the brain, but all you can do is just keep training it until it happens.

Immerse yourself, too. Try to think in Japanese. Go into "Japanese mode" when you're in class (and outside of class, too!). You are no longer an English speaker who uses Japanese when the sensei calls on you; you are a Japanese speaker when you're in Japanese class. It's all about your state of mind when you approach it. Being able to speak a language quickly and with fluency requires you to really integrate it into the deepest level of your mind.

Disclaimer being that this is essentially just how I look at things. May or may not work for you, but in any case, good luck with your studies!

My teacher keep saying that there is no secret or magic to suddenly knowing it. It's all memorization, which is a pain in the *insert disgusting body part*. But it works. Aside from that, There are really good sites. One of my favorite ones is this (https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/).

When I'm at home, I often try to speak or answer in Japanese... My family members have gotten used to it for the most part, so it's not too bad. Now I answer yes/no questions without thinking twice... Funny how things work. I also just got a dictionary, and so far it's been really helpful.

[Raiga]

I wouldn't call it a secret or magic or anything; your teacher's right, there is no real trick, you just got to drill it every day. That said, that doesn't mean having the right mindset won't help, which is what I was advising. Practice is practice, but unless you really think about what you're learning you'll just be doing the same thing over and over again mindlessly.

My advice basically boils down to: practice practice practice and then practice some more, but you must be an active participant in your learning or it'll all be empty practice (I'm not accusing anyone of not trying of course; just giving general advice).

[thevil1]

よし。。。
I'm confused about present past and future tense in Japanese... Can someone please explain it to me?
どうもおありがと。

[Raiga]

The normal form of a verb (the kind that ends in an う vowel syllable) is the present/future. It's a little hard to explain... like コンビニへ行きます would be interpreted as "I'm going to the convenience store" (though normally it'd be コンビニへ行ってきます but I didn't want to overcomplicate the sentence). You can see even in the English: saying "I'm going to the convenience store" is both present tense in a way as well as future tense in a way.

When used plainly in a sentence like that it generally implies some sort of future-ish thought; if something is going on right now you'd probably use ～ている form. Past tense is just the form that ends in ～た and is just past tense, pretty straightforward. "I went to the store." "He drove the car." "She ate her dinner."

[Mystique]

よし。。。
I'm confused about present past and future tense in Japanese... Can someone please explain it to me?
どうもおありがと。
To add to Raiga's note:
I'm gonna use the masu form as it's easier to assimulate.

To read
Present Positive/negative: よみます・読みません
Past pos/neg: 読みました・読みませんでした
I read
I don't read
I read (pronounced 'red') :p
I didn't read

To eat
Present Positive/negative: たべます・食べません
Past pos/neg:食べました・食べませんでした

To do
Present Positive/negative:します・しません
Past pos/neg: しました・しませんでした

There is no set grammar structure for future tense.
So then you ask?
How the hell do you express your will in the future sense then!? :confused:

You have to think in terms in the concept of broader 'time' and relate it to the moment of when you want to execute a future action.
It's a contextual approach rather than a explicit grammatical one like English (we use 'will')
To do so, you use other words that are time related, for example:

Said at 8am:
今日宿題をします。
kyou, shukudai wo shimasu.
今日＝today
します＝to do (present sense)
However, given it was said in the morning and 'today' lasts until midnight, the person has all day to do so, hence it becomes a 'future tense' sentence.
I will do my homework today.

If you take the 'today' outta it, then it's simply:
宿題をします。 I do (my) homework.

Another example:
Scenario: two girls are staring at a fashion bag in a shop window:
A: いいな。このかばんが欲しい～ (Ah man, I really want this bag~)
B:じゃ、かいますか? (Will you buy it then?)
A:買います! (Yep, I'm gonna get it)

Again 買います is simply 'to buy' in present tense + ka か (turns it into a question)
But given the context, to 'buy' something is always an action that has yet to happen, hence it becomes 'future tense'.

A much simplier one is:
つもり = plan to do.
A:なにをするつもり？ (What do you plan to do?)
B:ともだちにあいます。　友達に会うつもりです。 (I'm going to talk with my friend / I plan on talking with my friend)

The use of 'tsumori' in the question has already set the convo to 'future tense', hence answering can simply be in present tense or one can add 'tsumori' as well if they want.
(I think that's redundant for the natives though...)
It's an action that has yet to happen, hence it becomes 'future tense'.

Hope that clears up things, it's a very hard thing to have to adapt another mindset of approaching life as is the case with jp/eng, so it may take some time to get this concept down on paper alone.
When you see it used, it's easier to figure out, so practice away. :)

Good luck~

[risingstar3110]

Needed some more helps if you all don't mind ^^
My Japanese text book is quite old so it do not have any vocabulary that related into internet. So i want to say something like this in simple Japanese:

"I don't know where would be fun to go. So i probably have to browse and search through the net beforehand"

I have a vague idea of what to say in the 1st half (I don't know if it's correct through) "tanoshi dokoro ga wakarimasen. Dakara... " but have no idea what is the verb and the internet itself (intenetto?)

Thank for helps

Edit: and the line " site XYZ tell me that i should not go XYZ during XYZ" also

[mouhitori]

How about:



"I don't know where would be fun to go. So i probably have to browse and search through the net beforehand"

I have a vague idea of what to say in the 1st half (I don't know if it's correct through) "tanoshi dokoro ga wakarimasen. Dakara... " but have no idea what is the verb and the internet itself (intenetto?)

たのしい　ところ　が　わからない　ので、さきに　インターネットで　さがさなきゃ...
Tanoshii tokoro ga wakaranai node, saki ni inta-netto de sagasanakya

Where the sagasanakya form here(for the sagasu verb) means something you need to do

Edit: and the line " site XYZ tell me that i should not go XYZ during XYZ" also

Not sure if this is what you meant:
XYZに　よると　XYZのとき　XYZへ　いかないほうがいい
XYZ ni yoru to XYZ no toki XYZ he ikanai houga ii
(According to XYZ during XYZ better don't go to XYZ)

[thevil1]

OK I have a huge and very important question.
As I mentioned in my above (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3286296#post3286296) post that I'm taking a Japanese beginners' class, I'm also having a mid term in it this Friday.
So my question is as follows. I would like some study tips, and test tips for Japanese. I'm notorious for studying my [insert vulgar body part] and still doing poorly.
As I right this post, I have a separate tab open, from which I'm studying from what the teacher put up for help. But I want to make sure that I get an 'A'(++) on it, so I'm asking for you're help.
I'm not asking for answers, I'm just asking for some tips.
どもありがとうごします <-(I did not use Google translate ;P) in advance.

[ditn]

I have some small questions :)

* chū mushi
What is the most used way of writing this in Romaji, chū or chuu
Which one should i memorise (or should i just learn both)?
* rest kyū yasu-mu
is the - in yasu-mu how it is written or is this used for pronoutiation purpose.
Because i see both yasu-mu and yasumu ...

[Throne Invader]

Hi to the Japanese thread! :D

Someone repped me and left this comment. Can someone be so kind to tell me what this means?

この世界に神はいない

[Ottocycle]

Hi to the Japanese thread! :D

Someone repped me and left this comment. Can someone be so kind to tell me what this means?

この世界に神はいない
"There is no God in this world"

[Throne Invader]

"There is no God in this world"

Thanks Ottocycle. I had a hunch it was something to do with God. I know Chinese so I knew that 神 probably meant God because I understand the two languages do share some similarity and 世界 kind of means earth or world.

Thanks for the translation :)

[risingstar3110]

Thank you everyone :D

Hi to the Japanese thread!

Someone repped me and left this comment. Can someone be so kind to tell me what this means?

この世界に神はいない
Is that...

"Kono sekai ni kami wa i nai..."?

[Ottocycle]

Is that...

"Kono sekai ni kami wa i nai..."?
Yes it's pronounced that way, though I'm not sure about it being correct syntax...

I'd have written it as この世界に神がいない, and now I'm not even sure if that's actually correct.

Damn my rusting Japanese... Could someone clarify? (I realise it's a common pitfall and this has been asked millions of times :uhoh:)

I have some small questions :)

* chū mushi
What is the most used way of writing this in Romaji, chū or chuu
Which one should i memorise (or should i just learn both)?
* rest kyū yasu-mu
is the - in yasu-mu how it is written or is this used for pronoutiation purpose.
Because i see both yasu-mu and yasumu ...
Apparently the former "chū" (Hepburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization)) is more widely used in Western circles, being used in Wikipedia and all, but I was taught the latter (Kunrei-shiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunrei-shiki_R%C5%8Dmaji)) and am personally more comfortable with it. Knowledge of the latter would be advantageous if you are using a standard keyboard and using Microsoft IME to type Japanese.

Personally I have not seen the hyphen used before in official romanisation, but it is likely it's used for easy pronounciation.

[thevil1]

OK I have a huge and very important question.
As I mentioned in my above (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3286296#post3286296) post that I'm taking a Japanese beginners' class, I'm also having a mid term in it this Friday.
So my question is as follows. I would like some study tips, and test tips for Japanese. I'm notorious for studying my [insert vulgar body part] and still doing poorly.
As I right this post, I have a separate tab open, from which I'm studying from what the teacher put up for help. But I want to make sure that I get an 'A'(++) on it, so I'm asking for you're help.
I'm not asking for answers, I'm just asking for some tips.
どもありがとうごします <-(I did not use Google translate ;P) in advance.

[Raiga]

I have some small questions :)

* chū mushi
What is the most used way of writing this in Romaji, chū or chuu
Which one should i memorise (or should i just learn both)?
* rest kyū yasu-mu
is the - in yasu-mu how it is written or is this used for pronoutiation purpose.
Because i see both yasu-mu and yasumu ...

Romanization conventions are really just conventions; so long as you understand the underlying phonetics you'll be fine. If it's a formal situation and you need to romanize something I'd go with strict Hepburn, but personally I use a hybrid of Hepburn and kunrei-shiki/wapuro when I romanize and strict wapuro when I'm actually typing Japanese.

As for the dash in yasu-mu, it indicates the border between the kanji reading and the okurigana. 休む hence yasu-mu. The reading that's on the kanji itself is just "yasu," but it must be followed by the correct verb ending in order to be valid so it's included in the dictionary entry.

[thevil1]

Oh well... Since my last request has been ignored :(, I'll ask a new one.
Long drawn out sounds. How are they written? I understand that vowel sounds are written with a ’ー’ (ie: ジュース)。What about non-vowel sounds?

[risingstar3110]

@thevil1: i can't help much since i ...eh...do not really have a study method. I just repeat the same task until i remember it, that's what i called "study"...

Yes it's pronounced that way, though I'm not sure about it being correct syntax...

I'd have written it as この世界に神がいない, and now I'm not even sure if that's actually correct.

Damn my rusting Japanese... Could someone clarify? (I realise it's a common pitfall and this has been asked millions of times :uhoh:)
To my understand (which is likely to be wrong), the different in particle is just different way to emphasis? Like...
wa: God does not stay(or "are not in") in this world
ga: there's no God in this world

Something like that?

[Raiga]

Oh well... Since my last request has been ignored :(, I'll ask a new one.
Long drawn out sounds. How are they written? I understand that vowel sounds are written with a ’ー’ (ie: ジュース)。What about non-vowel sounds?

Vowel sounds are extended using the ー only in katakana. To extend a vowel in hiragana... well, it varies.

A long あ is just ああ (like おばあさん)
A long い is just いい (like やさしい)
And a long う is just うう (like くうき)
But a long え is usually えい (like きれい)
And a long お can be either おお (like とおい) or おう (like とうきょう), with the second version being more common.

As for extending other sounds... what can you really extend other than a vowel? A "long" consonant is the っ but otherwise most consonants cannot be held for that long.

[thevil1]

Wish me luck... I have my mid term in Japanese tomorrow. :)

[LeoXiao]

Crap I just watched an anime for the first time in three months and noticed that what Japanese I picked up over the last few years has really stagnated to the back of my mind, it's all being replaced by German.

[Himeji]

Yes it's pronounced that way, though I'm not sure about it being correct syntax...

I'd have written it as この世界に神がいない, and now I'm not even sure if that's actually correct.

Damn my rusting Japanese... Could someone clarify? (I realise it's a common pitfall and this has been asked millions of times :uhoh:)

が is just a neutral particle which only marks the subject of the sentence.
は is a topic marker which provides additional emphasis.

In the above example, when using は, the meaning is along the line of "There may be all sorts of things in this world, but God is really not there."

Further note: If you would come upon that sentence as spoken by a Japanese, you need to take two things into account: Japanese doesn't distinct between singular and plural, and only a tiny percentage (below 1%) are Christians in Japan. Thus, it may be better to translate 神 as "gods" instead of "god" then.

[Doughnuts]

が is just a neutral particle which only marks the subject of the sentence.
は is a topic marker which provides additional emphasis.

In the above example, when using は, the meaning is along the line of "There may be all sorts of things in this world, but God is really not there."

It's more than just emphasis. The choice of particle is used to denote the definiteness of an article. For example, is it a real distinguishable object, or an abstract concept. In the case where は it's used for god, it's referring to a known god or group of gods (eg. God in Christianity) rather than conceptual "gods".

[Mystique]

Hi to the Japanese thread! :D

Someone repped me and left this comment. Can someone be so kind to tell me what this means?

この世界に神はいない"There is no God in this world"
Given that the Japanese have Shinto of which 神 (kami) is in everything (the trees, wind, seas, sun, moon, earth, etc etc)
They make a distinction with the Christian God and add the 'sama' title to it 神様。
With that in mind, I'd have translated it as:
There are no gods in this world (There is no god in this world.)

I don't think it has anything to do with the Christian one (without asking the person who wrote this for sure to check where they were coming from), but that be my 2 pence on it. :)

Edit:
Ah Himeiji beat me to it now that I'm reading the rest of the thread. :p
As for the wa vs ga debate, meh - I doubt that makes a difference in terms of which concept of 'god' they're referring to.
My bets are on a general or Shinto sense (iow, a higher being)
I'm taking a beginners class (101), and I have similar problems. I can speak it (sort of), but my big problem is spelling, and Katakana. I can read Hiragana almost perfectly, still slow, but I'm gaining speed. I am having a lot of trouble learning Katakana. My teacher gave me a copy of a restaurant menu in Japanese (katakana) and she said to translate it and she'll help me if I have any problems.
I find it helps both vocab, and sentence structure if you read a book. It's damn hard if your new at the language, but I find it very helpful. I have two books in Japanese.
You've already had your test so I hope it went well.
As for memorising characters, be it Katakana or kanji.

Answer:
Write out them characters like a bitch. 　　_φ_(．．)めもめも。。。
　　
This means copy it out 50 or 100 times it it needs be or 10 times a day.
Draw them in the air (imagine you're tracing magical symbols with your fingers while you walk, worked for me in my 1st year) :p
But learners of Japanese kinda turn Japanese that way with that habit; i noticed natives often use their palms, the walls or the air to write out a kanji if it has a homophonic clash. xD
It's kinda cute though.

Keep writing and writing and train your memory muscle until it sinks in. More over, practice from English to Japanese, not Japanese to English (which is easier), by then, you will definitely be testing your powers of memory :)

As for reading, yeah books help but be careful what you use to read from. :)

In the words of the Japanese:
*waves the fans* ganbarre!

[thevil1]

OK this question is on the note of Kanji.
I need some tips on good ways of learning Kanji, and understanding its mechanics. I understand a little bit on how it works, but not a whole lot.　Please try to explain it as simple as possible。
どうもありがと

[Qikz]

OK this question is on the note of Kanji.
I need some tips on learning Kanji. I understand a little bit on how it works.
Thank.

I could probably give you some ideas, but I think you need to explain a bit more. What do you need to learn about Kanji, or do you mean how to learn symbols well?

[thevil1]

I could probably give you some ideas, but I think you need to explain a bit more. What do you need to learn about Kanji, or do you mean how to learn symbols well?

Mm... Well the basics of how they work, and all the strokes etc as well as what's needed to learn it.
My teacher tried explaining it to me using our textbook, but it's really confusing. That's why I'm hoping I could get a watered down version here.

[Himeji]

OK this question is on the note of Kanji.
I need some tips on good ways of learning Kanji, and understanding its mechanics. I understand a little bit on how it works, but not a whole lot.　Please try to explain it as simple as possible。
どうもありがと

Get yourself the "Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary" by Jack Halpern:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodansha-Kanji-Learners-Dictionary-Halpern/dp/4770028555/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288211314&sr=1-1

There's also another kanji dictionary which is somewhat frequent, the Spahn/Hadamitzky kanji dictionary, but it's not very well done imo - don't waste your money on that one.

The first thing you need to learn is to count the strokes in the kanji (page 895 of the above Kodansha book gives an explanation). Then, you can look up the kanji either by radical (instructions on page 958) or using the Skip method's pattern index (instructions on page 982). The latter will probably be simple for you, but the first (by radical) has the advantage that you can also use it with other kanji dictionaries.
If you're using Kde on Linux, rather than Faildows, you can also use the kanji dictionary Kiten, which is pretty good:
http://www.kde.org/applications/education/kiten/

You'll need to use the radical lookup there. Another way to look up kanji is by pronunciation, but you'll need to know their pronunciation in the first place to look them up, so it's unsuited for beginners.

Now how to memorise kanji. When you look up a kanji in the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary, you'll see the stroke order for the kanji in question. Take good note of it, because it's important. To memorise kanji, write them repeatedly (a dozen time a day or such) using that stroke order.

[thevil1]

^ Mmm... It's a little less confusing now... I'll try Googling the parts you mentioned... I don't have a lot of extra cash to spend ATM, but thanks anyway... I'll save the links so I can always go back to it. Thanks again.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the strokes themselves manipulate the meaning, and sound of the character? Is that accurate?
If that's the case, can they change dramatically from one change, or is one character (for example) always going to have a general meaning of an object etc... Understand what I'm saying?

[Raiga]

The strokes don't manipulate the meaning or sound per se. Kanji are... glyphs. Symbol clusters. They're built from strokes but... they're sort of like drawings? However it's not like you have a Kanji that means "good" and adding a stroke will make it mean "very good." Nothing like that.

In any case a single stroke doesn't contain meaning, but strokes put together do, and once you know all the basic Kanji parts it's very easy to learn new Kanji because they're made up of parts you'll already be familiar with (though you do encounter strange ones... like recently I came across 極 as in 極楽 and that Kanji just looks plain weird).

For example:

日
Means sun or day.

月
Means moon or month.

明
Means light or glow.

Not all Kanji-- in fact most Kanji won't-- be this straightforward when it comes to the way their meaning is built up. Is there any particular reason 楽 meaning "ease/relaxation/fun" has "white" on top of a "tree" with dots on either side? Maybe there was long ago but it's certainly not obvious nowadays. However, you can still remember how to write the Kanji as "white on top of a tree with dots on the side."

One thing I found recently that might be helpful is the Eight Prinicples of Yong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Principles_of_Yong). That's technically Chinese and there has been some deviation between Japanese Kanji and Chinese Hanzi, but those principles still apply. Those eight strokes are pretty much the basic strokes you need to know to write Chinese characters properly (with maybe a few more, like the weird bends in 弓). You get familiar with those rules and you'll be able to decompose any Kanji you see in your head and figure out how to write it.

I have this on no authority but my own but if you had to ask me I'd say the most important basic shapes to learn for Kanji are probably...

口 the box shape and it's variations (日、区、国 etc.)
木/小 something sorta this shape, with the slanting strokes/dots (楽、示、案 etc.)
王 the horizontal/vertical intersecting lines (馬、乗、進 etc.)

You'll notice for example that 楽 actually has a box shape variant (the 白) on top of the tree shape (木) while 乗 is a combination of the 王 type shape with the 木 type shape, plus some other strokes. There are of course other important shapes to know, like 又 and 戈 and 力 and whatnot. I've barely scratched the surface. You'll get used to it though. Once you get familiar with Kanji you'll be amazed at the way you can break down a complicated character and memorize it easily.

Anyway I got long winded again. Good luck with your studies!

[thevil1]

The strokes don't manipulate the meaning or sound per se. Kanji are... glyphs. Symbol clusters. They're built from strokes but... they're sort of like drawings? However it's not like you have a Kanji that means "good" and adding a stroke will make it mean "very good." Nothing like that.

In any case a single stroke doesn't contain meaning, but strokes put together do, and once you know all the basic Kanji parts it's very easy to learn new Kanji because they're made up of parts you'll already be familiar with (though you do encounter strange ones... like recently I came across 極 as in 極楽 and that Kanji just looks plain weird).

For example:

日
Means sun or day.

月
Means moon or month.

明
Means light or glow.

Not all Kanji-- in fact most Kanji won't-- be this straightforward when it comes to the way their meaning is built up. Is there any particular reason 楽 meaning "ease/relaxation/fun" has "white" on top of a "tree" with dots on either side? Maybe there was long ago but it's certainly not obvious nowadays. However, you can still remember how to write the Kanji as "white on top of a tree with dots on the side."

One thing I found recently that might be helpful is the Eight Prinicples of Yong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Principles_of_Yong). That's technically Chinese and there has been some deviation between Japanese Kanji and Chinese Hanzi, but those principles still apply. Those eight strokes are pretty much the basic strokes you need to know to write Chinese characters properly (with maybe a few more, like the weird bends in 弓). You get familiar with those rules and you'll be able to decompose any Kanji you see in your head and figure out how to write it.

I have this on no authority but my own but if you had to ask me I'd say the most important basic shapes to learn for Kanji are probably...

口 the box shape and it's variations (日、区、国 etc.)
木/小 something sorta this shape, with the slanting strokes/dots (楽、示、案 etc.)
王 the horizontal/vertical intersecting lines (馬、乗、進 etc.)

You'll notice for example that 楽 actually has a box shape variant (the 白) on top of the tree shape (木) while 乗 is a combination of the 王 type shape with the 木 type shape, plus some other strokes. There are of course other important shapes to know, like 又 and 戈 and 力 and whatnot. I've barely scratched the surface. You'll get used to it though. Once you get familiar with Kanji you'll be amazed at the way you can break down a complicated character and memorize it easily.

Anyway I got long winded again. Good luck with your studies!
This helps... Thanks... One question from reading it at a first glance...日
Means sun or day.日本語 has that same symbol, but obviously a different meaning then 'sun' or 'day'. This is an example of only one of the things I have trouble with. (yes there are plenty more to go around)

[Raiga]

One question from reading it at a first glance...日本語 has that same symbol, but obviously a different meaning then 'sun' or 'day'. This is an example of only one of the things I have trouble with. (yes there are plenty more to go around)

There's a reason 日本 is called the Land of the Rising Sun. The name does have a meaning. Just like the Chinese name for China (Zhong Guo) means "The Middle Kingdom."

Of course, sometimes names are just names. The fact that someone is named "Hunter Smith" does not mean that he actually hunts, or works as a blacksmith.

[thevil1]

There's a reason 日本 is called the Land of the Rising Sun. The name does have a meaning. Just like the Chinese name for China (Zhong Guo) means "The Middle Kingdom."

Of course, sometimes names are just names. The fact that someone is named "Hunter Smith" does not mean that he actually hunts, or works as a blacksmith.
OK... that explains the meaning, what about the sound they make?
Also, looking back at your first post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3318567#post3318567), I though of another assumption. Looking at the Wiki link you gave, I have an understanding that the purpose of Kanji is the learn the little strokes and not the character as a whole.
Sort of a different way of explaining ^, seeing how 日, and 月 together make sun and moon into light or glow; are these sounds kept consistent throughout that change? I know the first Kanji sound is a に (ni) sound. So would those two together make the word でんき (light)?
(thanks for all the help BTW) ;D

[Khu]

I'm pretty sure it's not the light you're thinking of which is artificial light (like a light bulb or something), but rather another type of light - I think it's ひかり、but I might be wrong :X

And the kanji retain their sound throughout - 子 is still こ, no matter where it's placed.

[Raiga]

The purpose of Kanji is not to learn the strokes. Learning the proper strokes just makes it easier for you to write Kanji, figure out how to write new Kanji, and make your handwriting more beautiful. You still have to memorize the whole character.

You're also going to have to break the habit of thinking that the way something is written affects its pronunciation. Hard. You'd have to trace Kanji back to medieval Chinese and then Chinese all the way back to when the language was first developing in order to find any clear relationships between how a word is written and how it's pronounced. For the purposes of a beginner, there is absolutely no relationship between how a modern Kanji is written and the way it is pronounced.

Furthermore (and I hope you're already aware of this), most Kanji have at least two readings: the native Japanese kun'yomi reading(s) (given in Hiragana in dictionaries) and the Chinese-based on'yomi reading(s) (given in Katakana in dictionaries). For example, 日 can be read as ひ、か、ニチ、ジツ and 月 can be read as つき、ゲツ、ガツ. 明 is read as あかり (as well as many many other readings I will not list).

Context greatly changes the pronunciation of a kanji. 日曜日 is read にちようび; in the same word, 日 takes on both the にち reading and the ひ reading (Kanji at the end of compounds often gain voicing; hence why ひ became び). On the other hand, there's 休日 (きゅうじつ) and 二日 (ふつか) and then some irregulars like 一日 (ついたち). 子 may be pronounced こ most of the time, but it can also be pronounced as し, for example, 調子 is pronounced ちょうし.

There are rules though; for example, a Kanji compound (more than one Kanji next to each other in the same word) usually uses the Chinese readings (on'yomi) while all simple verbs and adjectives (this excludes な-adjectives and する-verbs) use the native readings (kun'yomi). You can generally figure out whether you should voice the consonant of a Kanji at the end of a compound just by sounding it and figuring out which sounds better.

It's complex and difficult, but believe me you'll be thankful for Kanji eventually.

[thevil1]

The purpose of Kanji is not to learn the strokes. Learning the proper strokes just makes it easier for you to write Kanji, figure out how to write new Kanji, and make your handwriting more beautiful. You still have to memorize the whole character.

You're also going to have to break the habit of thinking that the way something is written affects its pronunciation. Hard. You'd have to trace Kanji back to medieval Chinese and then Chinese all the way back to when the language was first developing in order to find any clear relationships between how a word is written and how it's pronounced. For the purposes of a beginner, there is absolutely no relationship between how a modern Kanji is written and the way it is pronounced.

Furthermore (and I hope you're already aware of this), most Kanji have at least two readings: the native Japanese kun'yomi reading(s) (given in Hiragana in dictionaries) and the Chinese-based on'yomi reading(s) (given in Katakana in dictionaries). For example, 日 can be read as ひ、か、ニチ、ジツ and 月 can be read as つき、ゲツ、ガツ. 明 is read as あかり (as well as many many other readings I will not list).

Context greatly changes the pronunciation of a kanji. 日曜日 is read にちようび; in the same word, 日 takes on both the にち reading and the ひ reading (Kanji at the end of compounds often gain voicing; hence why ひ became び). On the other hand, there's 休日 (きゅうじつ) and 二日 (ふつか) and then some irregulars like 一日 (ついたち). 子 may be pronounced こ most of the time, but it can also be pronounced as し, for example, 調子 is pronounced ちょうし.

There are rules though; for example, a Kanji compound (more than one Kanji next to each other in the same word) usually uses the Chinese readings (on'yomi) while all simple verbs and adjectives (this excludes な-adjectives and する-verbs) use the native readings (kun'yomi). You can generally figure out whether you should voice the consonant of a Kanji at the end of a compound just by sounding it and figuring out which sounds better.

It's complex and difficult, but believe me you'll be thankful for Kanji eventually.
I'm beginning to understand it (おかげさまで), I have a feeling that the more I begin to read it, the better understanding I'll gain. It does help being able to use furigana while reading. I'm just worried since I've already fallen not to far behind my class, due to simple misunderstanding like this. I'm catching up though, mostly from help like yours. :)
Thanks.

[meko]

And the kanji retain their sound throughout - 子 is still こ, no matter where it's placed.

Oh? then what do we do about words like 男子(だんし)?


You guys are thinking too hard about this. I would recommend memorizing entire sentences or fragments of sentences. If you think too hard about Kanji it will just make your eyes クルクル.

[thevil1]

Oh? then what do we do about words like 男子(だんし)?


You guys are thinking too hard about this. I would recommend memorizing entire sentences of fragments of sentences. If you think too hard about Kanji it will just make your eyes クルクル.

Yeah well you kind of have to thunk hard when your trying not to fail a class... I'll be darned if I fail just because of kanji.

[Mow Yun]

Oh? then what do we do about words like 男子(だんし)?


You guys are thinking too hard about this. I would recommend memorizing entire sentences of fragments of sentences. If you think too hard about Kanji it will just make your eyes クルクル.

Exceptions make the rule ^o^;;

Not all words have a kanji form, most do but there are some words which commonly do not use kanji, and there are verbs which are shortened forms of katakana words which are turned into verbs. (Curse you サボる)

Also once you get into learning kanji it's not extremely difficult to learn the meaning of the words, but watch out in which some kanji combinations, if reversed, mean something different. (Keep tripping up on those @_@)

[Raiga]

Yeah well you kind of have to thunk hard when your trying not to fail a class... I'll be darned if I fail just because of kanji.

I don't think it's about thinking too hard or thinking too little... more about changing your way of thinking.

When it comes down to it, feeding yourself a list of facts and rules is only going to do so much. Relax your mind a bit, forget everything you know about English (temporarily), and just let the new language sink in. Don't panic, have fun, and stay positive.

[thevil1]

OK... I'm back (oh noes not again...)
I think I figured out one of my biggest problems that I have with Kanji (so far).
ex: 三 - meaning the number three, (that's correct I assume since I'm using IME on my computer, and double checked it with all mighty Google)...
So knowing that the kun reading of 三 is み/みっ(つ)/み(つ), then what I'm getting confused about is about "san" having the same meaning, but different sounds. Understand my problem?

[Raiga]

Er... 三 is read as さん when it's by itself. I'm not quite sure what you're asking. み and さん are both readings of 三. You use み or みっ in, for example, 三つ which is pronounced みっつ and means "three things" while 三 pronounced さん means "the number 3."

I called the on'yomi the Chinese readings but they're still part of the Japanese language. さん is the on' reading of 三. It's the same word meaning "three."

[thevil1]

Mm... Not sure I completely understand...

Here's another example that I can try to give with a better explanation of my problem...
日本 has the meaning of Japan, or as Romaji would have it, "Nippon". Having 日being the sound に ("ni").
but according to this (http://www.yosida.com/en/kanji.php?level=5&page=2), it's kun sound is ひ/か ("hi"/"ka")
My brain just doesn't seem to accept this. It keeps convincing me that it's wrong, and against all laws of nature.

Ahh... I'm such a noob at this stuff, I hope I'm not being annoying... I'm like this in math to.
But thank you so much for helping me :)

[H23]

Edit: Help has been found - Thanks SO much! XD

[Raiga]

Mm... Not sure I completely understand...

Here's another example that I can try to give with a better explanation of my problem...
日本 has the meaning of Japan, or as Romaji would have it, "Nippon". Having 日being the sound に ("ni").
but according to this (http://www.yosida.com/en/kanji.php?level=5&page=2), it's kun sound is ひ/か ("hi"/"ka")
My brain just doesn't seem to accept this. It keeps convincing me that it's wrong, and against all laws of nature.

Ahh... I'm such a noob at this stuff, I hope I'm not being annoying... I'm like this in math to.
But thank you so much for helping me :)

There are exceptions, especially among the more commonly used Kanji. This probably sounds counter-intuitive to you (linguistically it makes perfect sense though) but the most commonly used words are the ones most likely to have exceptions.

With 日 it's actually not even an exception because に is one of the name readings (neither kun' nor on'), and 日本 is very much a name. Allow me to take this moment to reiterate that names, generally speaking, do not have to mean anything and don't really follow any sort of grammar. They're just names.

Also, I'm not sure what the conflict in your brain is, but let it go. Trust that this language is consistent and makes sense. You're probably caught up on a nonexistent contradiction that will go away once you learn more (this has happened to me several times).

Japanese is going to be very different from English, so what seems weird or nonsensical at first is really just that-- different.

[thevil1]

Ok so I have a quick question...
Is this correct if I want to say "Have a good Thanks Giving", Thanks Givingはおげんきです。

[Raiga]

Ok so I have a quick question...
Is this correct if I want to say "Have a good Thanks Giving", Thanks Givingはおげんきです。

I'm not sure of the proper greeting for the holiday, but what you said sounds like you're making the statement, "Thanksgiving is cheerful" or "I'm happy for Thanksgiving" rather than wishing someone a good Thanksgiving.

[thevil1]

So how would you wish someone a good day? I would think it would be like that...