Learning Japanese

[Thalarian]

Hey any advice is sound advice in my book! :) Like I said, want to see where everyone started out, get a feel for what's going on around me and then jump in.

Did you learn to speak first, or did you jump right into reading?

[Keios]

I jumped right into reading. I'd love to speak it aswell but there's no-one to talk to. I could speak Japanese to my parents, I guess, but it'd be a rather one-sided conversation. :heh:

[C.A.]

Hmmm a japanese dictionary is also a handy tool, an essential actually, if you are learning.

[Shini_GamI]

i started out learning japanese at school because there are languages i can learn at school. I've been studying japanese for 1 year or more.... It's pretty easy if you know the structures of the sentences japanese people uses. Also, if you're a chinese background, you will definitely have advantages in Kanji though they arent the same pronounciations, but the meanings are the same :P
goodluck

[Thalarian]

i started out learning japanese at school because there are languages i can learn at school. I've been studying japanese for 1 year or more.... It's pretty easy if you know the structures of the sentences japanese people uses. Also, if you're a chinese background, you will definitely have advantages in Kanji though they arent the same pronounciations, but the meanings are the same :P
goodluck

Unfortunately, I'm a damn American through and through LoL, and don't know a whole lot of the structural background. Since you've been studying about a year, how would you gauge yourself? Just so I can start seeing a timeframe in my head.


Thanks also for that link Kei, should help. I find it amazing that you started out reading instead of speaking. (Although spouting off at your parents in a language they don't understand would be quite humorous) I figured learning to speak it would help in learning to read it. Perhaps I'm just mixed up. :p

Any references for the kanji dictionary?

[Keios]

I'm using Kanji & Kana: A Handbook of the Japanese Writing System by Wolfgang Hadamitzky & Mark Spahn. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804820775/103-7221360-6609446?v=glance&n=283155)

It has basically everything I need. All the 1945 Jouyou Kanji + 284 extra kanji used in names, stroke orders, compound words...

[Quarkboy]

The only kanji dictionary that's worth the money for a beginner is Kodansha's Kanji learners dictionary. At some MUCH later time you'll need something bigger like the new Nelson, but the Kanji learners has all 2000 or so standard kanji and a really efficient lookup system (SKIP), that makes looking up kanji a breeze even for a complete beginner.

As for a self study book, I kind of like "Japanese Step by Step" by Nishi. It's almost like a programming language reference, and builds up japanese grammer like java :). You'd need to supplement it with some dialogues or something, but it's a pretty deep book and very efficient.
General textbooks I'd recommend Genki, the books I learned with, or even Japanese for Busy people (kana edition) isn't too bad, really.

[Shini_GamI]

Unfortunately, I'm a damn American through and through LoL, and don't know a whole lot of the structural background. Since you've been studying about a year, how would you gauge yourself? Just so I can start seeing a timeframe in my head.


mm.... I have worksheets and exercises to keep me going on japanese, well they are all given by my teacher. Are you planning to learn japanese by yourself??

[Thalarian]

Thanks for all the rec's, found most all of them on Amazon.com.

Once again, sorry for all the questions to the explanations that you guys are giving me, but like I said, I'm serious about learning the language, and willing to put forth the time, and the money to learn it.

Quark, I looked up the Genko books, the Level 1 book and the Workbook for it. Think I should go for the CD as well? Seems that might help with speech and the pronunciation.

Thanks again for that rec Keios.

[Shini_GamI]

Ya, getting workbooks and cd should be a start.... hopefully the level 1 book starts with all the basics which it should lol....
goodluck in learning jap :D

[raphaël]

:D Hey everyone, first time posting.

I'm finally looking to bite the bullet and learn Japanese, then hopefully move on to written Japanese (Kanji, Kana, etc.)

Welcome Chris. Let me just tell you that'd be the biggest mistake you could do. Believe me, learn both at the same time, even if you feel like it's too hard or too slow sometimes, it's worth it. Yeah, trust me.
I studied Japanese at the university so I don't really know about self-learning, but sure thing is that's a language you can't learn phonetically, even though it sounds easy. For the english speaker I guess you are, It wouldn't be like learning Spanish, German, Italian or French.

I'm posting here because you sound motivated. Japanese is sure a great language, funny and rich as hell. I wish you good luck.

[Thalarian]

Welcome Chris. Let me just tell you that'd be the biggest mistake you could do. Believe me, learn both at the same time, even if you feel like it's too hard or too slow sometimes, it's worth it. Yeah, trust me.
I studied Japanese at the university so I don't really know about self-learning, but sure thing is that's a language you can't learn phonetically, even though it sounds easy. For the english speaker I guess you are, It wouldn't be like learning Spanish, German, Italian or French.

I'm posting here because you sound motivated. Japanese is sure a great language, funny and rich as hell. I wish you good luck.


Thanks, I am motivated, and like you said, I'm an English speaker. So any learning curves I may believe in, need to be bent in a different direction by those who know what they are talking about. Thus why I'm posting here.

The Genki books like rec'd by Quark sound like a good start also, as I believe they cover the wording, kanji, and vocab all at about one time. Keios' should also come in handy. I don't know alot of people who have self taught. (Don't know a lot of people who even speak Japanese, not really a high subject around here I guess. Quite a shame)

As far as language courses go, even if it might take longer, is self-teaching a lost cause? I'm sure the courses help, but I'm already attending college in S.F. and working full time, so obviously I don't have time to take courses in it. That's why I'm headed towards self teaching.

Especially since I have about an hour and a half window using the public transit to and from school. Probably can spare another two or so hours a day dedicated to it.

[samurai666]

Here is another great extension that will work well in conjuction with Moji. Moji works with Kanji, but rikaichan works with Kana, as well and unlike Moji it automatically highlights words, so no guess work is needed.

rikaichan (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2471/)

Japanese to English/German/French dictionary. Just hover the mouse on top of a word, and a popup appears. Automatically de-inflects verbs and adjectives. Detailed kanji view.

https://addons.mozilla.org/images/previews/rikaichan-1.jpg

Download the dictionaries here (http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/).

[anyweather]

Hi I need some help with japanese word/pronounciation

I always hear "meh-sa-meh" or something like that in anime series. What does it mean? Does it mean resurrection / awakening / recovering?

Or does it mean something different? If so, what is the correct meaning and spelling of "meh-sa-meh"?

Thanks for anyone's help:)

[Keios]

That would be mezame (目覚め), which means waking. AFAIK. :uhoh:

[raphaël]

Yup. Like "kyô mezameta toki" = When I woke up this morning.
For instance you find the same root in "mezamashi dokei" (alarm clock) too.

[doink-chan]

Yeah, 目覚める（めざめる, mezameru) means "to wake up" (as in to wake up from sleeping).

おい、目覚めよ！（おい、めざめよ！, Oi, mezame yo!) = Hey, wake up!

[Evan]

This is an interesting thread.

I kinda need some help in trnaslation of japanese words.I'll be greatful if anyone is kind enough to translate what the words means in this pic . :heh:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/EternalEarth/decipherpls.jpg

Thanks in advance :)

[Shini_GamI]

i thought "oki" means waking up..... or is ther another word for waking up too?

[Keios]

Both 目覚める (mezameru) and 起きる (okiru) mean 'to wake up', but the latter has other meanings as well.

[PoisonedV]

I thought this was pretty related to Anime since most anime is originally in Japanese. And comes from... Japan. Some from Korea. Haven't seen any from china. So eh my question is... How can I learn japanese? internet? Books? EH? EH?!

[Keios]

There's already a Learning Japanese (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=180) -thread on General Chat.

:uhoh:

[PoisonedV]

oh my god i was a weeaboo

[Himeyotsu]

Yeah, 目覚める(めざめる, mezameru) means "to wake up" (as in to wake up from sleeping).

おい、目覚めよ!(おい、めざめよ!, Oi, mezame yo!) = Hey, wake up!

In ordinary conversation, 「おい、目覚めよ!」 is a little bit strange.

If you want to say "Hey, wake up!"
「ねぇ、起きて」"Ne^, okite"(for boys and girls, or wemen(shy men OK))
「ねぇ、起きてよ」"Ne^, okite-yo"(same as above)

「おい、起きろ!」"Oi, okiro!"(for men or boys. It sounds so　rough, intense, rude or impolite. If you want to say this, only for friends who are very close to you )
「おい、起きろよ」"Oi, okiro-yo"(a little calmer than above)

「あのー、起きて下さい」"ano^, okite kudasai"(for all, so so polite)
「ちょっと!、起きて下さい」"chotto! okite kudasai"(same as above)

[doink-chan]

Yeah, that's what I meant. ^^;;

「起きる」のほうがいいと思います。(^^)

[Shini_GamI]

anyone know how to say "no"? not "iie" but the one that sounded like "jigau"
should i say, more of a non-formal way of saying no... probably

[Cloudnine]

anyone know how to say "no"? not "iie" but the one that sounded like "jigau"
I think you mean "chigau", pronounced chi (ち) - ga (が) - uu (う). It means 'wrong' or 'to differ' so it's used slightly different from 'no'.

[Shini_GamI]

I think you mean "chigau", pronounced chi (ち) - ga (が) - uu (う). It means 'wrong' or 'to differ' so it's used slightly different from 'no'.
Arigatoo, cloudnine-sama =D

[darklegion]

Here is another great extension that will work well in conjuction with Moji. Moji works with Kanji, but rikaichan works with Kana, as well and unlike Moji it automatically highlights words, so no guess work is needed.

rikaichan (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2471/)



https://addons.mozilla.org/images/previews/rikaichan-1.jpg

Download the dictionaries here (http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/).

There's also PopJisyo (http://http://www.popjisyo.com/WebHint/Portal_e.aspx) for people who don't use firefox.Simply save the bookmarklets as bookmarks, and open the bookmark while on a page with japanese text.Under Opera I add the bookmarklets with a nickname and then I can type in the nickname in the address bar to translate the page.

[Hebby]

i was wondering what is the best technique to learn japanese, and also if any you guys fluent in it would like to give me some tips n maybe help me a lil?:)

[raikage]

i was wondering what is the best technique to learn japanese, and also if any you guys fluent in it would like to give me some tips n maybe help me a lil?:)

A class. http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/9933/shrug8zo.gif

Some people here buy their own books and self-study, but I don't know how well that works.

If you're looking for something relatively simple to do on your own, you can memorize kana.

[Kyuusai]

It's amazing how this thread keeps getting bumped. :)

I recently found an excellent book for the English speaker learning Japanese that I haven't seen mentioned on this thread or board (if it has been mentioned, please don't skewer me).

Remembering the Kanji (http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/publications.htm)
The learning method is much, MUCH different than normal, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Different methods work differently for different people.

I downloaded the entire first volume off of that site before, but today it seems only a "preview" version is available. Amazon.com carries the full version of the first two volumes.

[Shini_GamI]

i was wondering what is the best technique to learn japanese, and also if any you guys fluent in it would like to give me some tips n maybe help me a lil?:)
at first, learn hiragana, then to katakana.... (practice make perfect:p )dont worry about kanji now, unless you are chinese background or for some reason you know a lot of chinese characters
i dont really have any tips, though im not saying im very fluent in japanese, but! once you know how the particles(eg. ”と”　OR　”に”　etc....) and how sentences structure works, then everything will be a lot easier, goodluck :P

[i0td]

I recommend classes. You get that "hands-on" training with teacher and classmates that is hard to duplicate with self-study. But that doesn't mean you should not be studying on your own either. Whatever works best.

Remembering the Kanji
The learning method is much, MUCH different than normal, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Different methods work differently for different people.
I actually found this book very helpful. The technique that the author employs is the use of mnemonics. Once you get the basic kanji down using picture/character memorization, you basically stack those characters together to form the more advanced kanji and make up stories along the way to help you memorize those new words. Just know that vocabulary is the biggest part of any language. You will need to memorize your Japanese vocabulary one way or another.

Good luck to you. Learn as much as you can :)

[meeyuki93]

Ohayo..everyone!! uu know learnin Japanese..is kinda fun ^_~..so anyone here go for Japanese Lessons??..

[Syaoran]

Ohayo..everyone!! uu know learnin Japanese..is kinda fun ^_~..so anyone here go for Japanese Lessons??..
Yes! Starting in September \(^^)/
I resigned in order to study it at university... just a few weeks notice period and a new fresh start for me :)

@Hebby: For self-study, you should take a look at the Genki books ( http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/index.en.html ). It's quite good and compared to the online stuff, you actually learn something ^^

[Doraneko]

Is there anyone going to sit for the Japanese Language Proficiency Test (http://momo.jpf.go.jp/jlpt/e/about_e.html) in December? :)

I have studied in some weekend classes for about a year till July and has been self-studing since then. Still there is a way to go before I can reach the required level of passing level 2 of the exam. Now I am "forcing" myself to watch at least 2 episodes of anime a day. Hope that it will help in the listening section, the part that I am supposed to be the weakest in.

[moofie]

I took the level 3 JLPT test in Dec 02 and got my shiny certificate in the following March :) Regular anime watching really helped my listening for when I first started lessons. But I eventually finished university and without regular classes I'm stuck around the same level, if not worse. We used the first 'minna no nihongo' textbook to learn in class. I gotta find the next one for an attempt at self study...

[Doraneko]

By the way which do you think is the best way of training one's Japanese listening comprehension by use of anime?

1. watching it with subs of his mother-tongue
2. watching it with English subs
3. watching it with Japanese subs
4. watching it in the raw format

The subtitles do help me to better understand the dialogues, but it sometimes distract me too much that I lose my focus on the spoken language itself. When watching without the subtitles, I can probably understand 50-70% of the content, yet it is relatively more difficult for me to expand my vocabulary.

[JOJOS'STAR]

By the way which do you think is the best way of training one's Japanese listening comprehension by use of anime?

1. watching it with subs of his mother-tongue
2. watching it with English subs
3. watching it with Japanese subs
4. watching it in the raw format

The subtitles do help me to better understand the dialogues, but it sometimes distract me too much that I lose my focus on the spoken language itself. When watching without the subtitles, I can probably understand 50-70% of the content, yet it is relatively more difficult for me to expand my vocabulary.
I agree. At a certain point it is probably better without the subs. As for learning the basic things though the subs are a pretty usefull tool. I still can't do well without them but I think its about time I get in serious learning business with RAWS. I'd suggest RAWS as the best for learning because it pressures you to understand.

[raphaël]

Is there anyone going to sit for the Japanese Language Proficiency Test (http://momo.jpf.go.jp/jlpt/e/about_e.html) in December? :)

I have studied in some weekend classes for about a year till July and has been self-studing since then. Still there is a way to go before I can reach the required level of passing level 2 of the exam. Now I am "forcing" myself to watch at least 2 episodes of anime a day. Hope that it will help in the listening section, the part that I am supposed to be the weakest in.
Not to sound pessimistic, or to be doubting your capacities, but I don't think you'd be able to pass level 2 with only one year of week-end classes...

Personnally, I've been willing to pass level 1 this year, but I think i'm gonna crash right into a big wall. :heh:

Actually, I think both watching subbed versions and raws can bring you something. On the other hand, Since I came to Japan, I've been watching movies in languages I don't know ( Korean, Chinese, etc...) subbed in Japanese and I can tell you it's an... exhausting exercise... :heh:

On the contrary, watching movies in your language ( as for me, french) subbed in Japanese can be interesting too. For instance, characters use very natural expressions in your language, you can read how a Japanese would translate that in the most natural way. Of course, it depends on the context, but it helps a lot as well, in my humble opinion.

[Doraneko]

Not to sound pessimistic, or to be doubting your capacities, but I don't think you'd be able to pass level 2 with only one year of week-end classes...

Personnally, I've been willing to pass level 1 this year, but I think i'm gonna crash right into a big wall. :heh:

Actually, I think both watching subbed versions and raws can bring you something. On the other hand, Since I came to Japan, I've been watching movies in languages I don't know ( Korean, Chinese, etc...) subbed in Japanese and I can tell you it's an... exhausting exercise... :heh:

On the contrary, watching movies in your language ( as for me, french) subbed in Japanese can be interesting too. For instance, characters use very natural expressions in your language, you can read how a Japanese would translate that in the most natural way. Of course, it depends on the context, but it helps a lot as well, in my humble opinion.


I may possibly end up with a failed grade if I take the exam, but it would be a 100% failure if I didn't try my best. :P

Anyway the weekend classes only covered up to level 4. To me the most important part is this summer vacation, which I have been spending about 10 hours a day on self-studying. So far I have satisfactory scores on the mock papers. But the listening is the weakest part nonetheless since my language skills are from dead books instead of living teachers. Still, three months for me to go :P. Back in December I couldn't even read manga, but I could already read novels at ease by June. :)

And yea, some of my firends got the level-2 pass after studying for only 6 months. Not sure if it matters, but we are from China/Hong Kong by the way.

For your level 1 exam, since there are still quite some time till December, I am sure you can pass it if you turn yourself into full exam-preparation mode. And even if you failed it wouldn't hurt at all. At least you have gained real expereince in dealing with the exam, making your chance of passing the next one much higher. It is certainly better than doing nothing this year and wait till 2007 to make your first attempt.

Not to mention that you have been studying in Japan :cool: , a truly decisive factor when determining your capability in the language.

Anyway I have never watch any non-Japanese movies in Japanese subs since it is totally unheard of in my city, let alone accessible. Probably following the subs alone would make my head spins. :heh:

[raphaël]

I may possibly end up with a failed grade if I take the exam, but it would be a 100% failure if I didn't try my best. :P
Yeah, sorry, of course you're right. :heh: That's a very Japanese frame of mind you have here. lol

Anyway the weekend classes only covered up to level 4. To me the most important part is this summer vacation, which I have been spending about 10 hours a day on self-studying. So far I have satisfactory scores on the mock papers. But the listening is the weakest part nonetheless since my language skills are from dead books instead of living teachers. Still, three months for me to go :P. Back in December I couldn't even read manga, but I could already read novels at ease by June. :)
Now I understand better. Good luck then.

And yea, some of my firends got the level-2 pass after studying for only 6 months. Not sure if it matters, but we are from China/Hong Kong by the way.
It does matter. :D

Anyway I have never watch any non-Japanese movies in Japanese subs since it is totally unheard of in my city, let alone accessible. Probably following the subs alone would make my head spins. :heh:
I was just mentioning it. Of course you don't find Japanese subs everywhere around. :(

And as for me, well... My situation is much different, so... I don't want to talk about it, actually. ;)
Just know that I studied Japanese in the university, so that's another point of view, I guess...

[raikage]

Is there anyone going to sit for the Japanese Language Proficiency Test (http://momo.jpf.go.jp/jlpt/e/about_e.html) in December? :)

I have studied in some weekend classes for about a year till July and has been self-studing since then. Still there is a way to go before I can reach the required level of passing level 2 of the exam. Now I am "forcing" myself to watch at least 2 episodes of anime a day. Hope that it will help in the listening section, the part that I am supposed to be the weakest in.

At this point, my skills are so deteriorated I'd likely be passing level 3 by the skin of my teeth. :uhoh:

If you're using anime for the sole purpose of training listening comprehension (and not to, y'know, enjoy it) I'd skip the anime and try to find J-drama.

The little bit I've seen, I already know it would help more than anime would.
People speak a bit more...normally, and at a faster pace which forces you to keep up.

[raphaël]

If you're using anime for the sole purpose of training listening comprehension (and not to, y'know, enjoy it) I'd skip the anime and try to find J-drama.

The little bit I've seen, I already know it would help more than anime would.
People speak a bit more...normally, and at a faster pace which forces you to keep up.
Right, but this can be quite depressing too. You must know what I mean. I've been translating a drama so I know what it's like. At least in that one, they don't speak "normally". Drama are very talkative. Japanese usually aren't. :p

But yeah, that's an even better exercise. Then seeing actual faces of speaking people helps a lot too, in my opinion. :D

[JOJOS'STAR]

If you're using anime for the sole purpose of training listening comprehension (and not to, y'know, enjoy it) I'd skip the anime and try to find J-drama.
Exactly. Thats what I did. Although that got me into K-drama shortly after for better comedy. And there goes my learning of Japanese. >.<

Anyway. If you manage to keep on with Jdramas only it probably will pay some day. :p

[Doraneko]

If you're using anime for the sole purpose of training listening comprehension (and not to, y'know, enjoy it) I'd skip the anime and try to find J-drama.

Well, the part on "forcing myself" to watch 2 anime episodes a day is not supposed to be taken literally. That's why the word "forcing" in my last message was in quotation marks. :p

Anyway thanks for the suggestion. I have seen some J-drama dubbed in my native language few years ago. Still I couldn't manage to sit through the episodes without falling asleep. Are the recent ones better? It would be great if you could give me a few suggestions. Thanks. :)

[JOJOS'STAR]

Are the recent ones better? It would be great if you could give me a few suggestions. Thanks. :)
Not to take over for Raikage, I have a few suggestion myself I would'nt mind sharing with you. ^^

GTO [Great Teacher Onizuka] An easy but very effective jdrama. A unqualified teacher takes over the worst class of the school. Great stuff. If you have seen Gokusen(anime or L-A) you'll definitely like that one.

L'Oiseau Bleue More if your into classic dramatic dramas. A very good story loaded with emotion. Not to try if your a bit depress.

Densha Otoko And finaly the funniest one I saw yet. Probably because I like laughing at the clumsiness of others. At the same time learn about OTAKUS.

[Urzu 7]

I was curious to know, does anybody know of a good company to buy from for learning foreign languages and learning Japanese via interactive software, i.e. a Learning Japanese software package with CD or DVD, allowing one to learn on the computer with means such as interactive menus, texts, and lessons, and hearing samples so one can better master correct pronounciation? I'm sure every has gotten the point by now, I am just being very thorough as I am really interested in learning the Japanese language, and I think this could be one of several means to help me pick up the basics and intermediate knowledge of the language in a relatively short time. So, any recommendations of a software company I should go with specializing in teaching Japanese/foreign languages?

Thanks to anybody who can help me out. :)

[raikage]

Anyway thanks for the suggestion. I have seen some J-drama dubbed in my native language few years ago. Still I couldn't manage to sit through the episodes without falling asleep. Are the recent ones better? It would be great if you could give me a few suggestions. Thanks. :)

Whoops! Sorry I haven't responded.

I actually don't know what you can watch -- I occasionally get Japanese television shows on a local independent station, San Francisco having the strong Asian influence it does.

I guess go with what Jojo recommended? http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/9933/shrug8zo.gif

Urzu, I have no idea what kinds of software you could use.

[Syaoran]

Urzu, you could a look at Rosetta Stone, but honestly, apart from pronounciation, you learn nothing. You don't even know why they use a particle or that suffix in verbs i.e. A way better solutions is a class or books such as Genki

[Spectacular_Insanity]

While Genki is okay, our class uses Nakama (1), the college level book. For beginners, those in Japanese 1 or 2, its fine, but higher levels should begin to use more Kanji in their readings, and in their writing. I'm in Japanese 3, and although my Spanish is much better (and my Japanese comparable to a 4 year old kid), I offer to help with what I can in this lesson here.

But in my opinion, much more than rudimentary phrases, you can't learn anything from online sources. A proper way to learn is from a qualified teacher (preferably a Japanese native). Our teacher's name is Ito Sensei (Mrs. Ito), and she's very efficient, and doesn't waste time with phrases when learning essential grammar is more important. For instance, particles & sentence structure (syntax).

Not to mention, without a proper instructor, you lose a lot of explanation of inflections and when to use certain forms on the ends of sentences, like yo or ne. A lot gets lost in translation otherwise, as more often than not, direct translations end up not being correct at all.

PS. No offense, and though I hate to say this, but those who study the Japanese language should learn hiragana, katakana, and kanji, or they are not really learning the language. Learning Japanese in romaji is... well... like learning french without accent marks and definite articles. It's just not right.

[Doraneko]

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions on J-Dramas. I am going to start with Densha Otoko first, and maybe GTO or Joou no Kyousitsu after finishing that. :)

On self-learning, I think it is a good idea to attend some basic courses first before getting into that. Because if you have some of the most fundamental concepts wrong, you will have a hard time when you proceed to the intermediate level. Not to mention that it would be very difficult to correct them by that time. For softwares, I really have no idea if there is any decent one out there. But if you want to brush up your pronounciation, a text book set with CDs included can work as well (still nothing can beat learning from a native speaker in class).

I can't really get why there are so many English textbooks on Japanese use romaji instead of hiragana. Frankly romanji is something that is, at most, only useful for your first week of study, and should be thrown away immediately after that. Language is not only about speaking and listening, but also writing and reading. These four components go hand-in-hand with each other. You are only trapping yourself if you try to neglect any of them.

In our city, the basic alphabets are taught in the very first lesson of any language course, and you are required to memorize all of them in 1-2 weeks. Anyone failing to do so probably have to leave and take another language. And of course you can never find one single textbook using romanization as shortcuts for impatient learners.

[bluemist]

http://www.pimsleurapproach.com/
http://www.rosettastone.com/

What do you think of these language learning approaches?

I am quite stuck in my language learning right now. My problem is that in conversations, I can more or less understand what is spoken to me... but when the time comes that I should formulate a sentence to answer back, I can't find any words to say.

Would Pimsleur or Rosetta help me in that? Or do I need another approach? I've been in Japan for over a month now, and I feel like I'm not progressing AT ALL, despite being with mostly Japanese people at the office. I'm literally immersing myself and yet I really just don't get it.

Once again, I can understand them, but I can't talk back. What do I do?

[Gibilterra]

Ａs a matter of reality、Education Ministry　should　edit　systematic　japanese.
That is because japanese has redundant areas.
By the way I'm studying russian,so people around me regard me rare.
You trying to study japanese?
Oh,you are rare people as me.

[CarpeDiem]

But in my opinion, much more than rudimentary phrases, you can't learn anything from online sources. A proper way to learn is from a qualified teacher (preferably a Japanese native). Our teacher's name is Ito Sensei (Mrs. Ito), and she's very efficient, and doesn't waste time with phrases when learning essential grammar is more important. For instance, particles & sentence structure (syntax).

While learning in a classroom environment definitely has its benefits, I think it's a bit ignorant to say that you can't learn anything but "rudimentary phrases" from online sources. Sites such as The Japanese Page (http://www.thejapanesepage.com) and Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Grammar (http://www.guidetojapanese.org) are very helpful sites that offer much more than just phrases. The Japanese Page has a very active message board where you can get input from other students, a couple of native speakers, and some JETs. Tae Kim's site has good pages that covers various aspects of Japanese grammar.

実は私、そんなサイトで日本語を勉強しています。私の日本語はまだまだですけど、がんばってい ます。

PS. No offense, and though I hate to say this, but those who study the Japanese language should learn hiragana, katakana, and kanji, or they are not really learning the language. Learning Japanese in romaji is... well... like learning french without accent marks and definite articles. It's just not right.

I agree. Not to mention that you end up getting caught in a lot of homophones if you don't have the kanji to help figure out what someone else is writing. Despite being someone who isn't entirely thrilled about learning French, the accent marks and definite articles are aspects that are essential when learning the language because English really does operate illogically. Most ESLs probably have a hard time figuring out how to pronounce English, given the lack of accent marks and pretty arbitrary pronunciation system.

EDIT: Fixed links

[gencbiba]

I was interested in learning Japanese, but seeing how hard it may be, I might just give up! Lol.... I'll just go learn a bit more of Italian since I'm not sharp in talking. However, I still am a bit interested in Japanese so I'll ask this... I'm only interested in speaking, and not much reading, so, is it possible to learn to speak simple phrases in a short amount of time? I think once I learn the basics, I can learn everything else myself by studying.

[raikage]

I was interested in learning Japanese, but seeing how hard it may be, I might just give up! Lol.... I'll just go learn a bit more of Italian since I'm not sharp in talking. However, I still am a bit interested in Japanese so I'll ask this... I'm only interested in speaking, and not much reading, so, is it possible to learn to speak simple phrases in a short amount of time? I think once I learn the basics, I can learn everything else myself by studying.

I don't see why not. :)

My local community college does offer a course dedicated to just being able to speak.
Granted, you won't learn much, but it's something.

[rio]

>I'm only interested in speaking, and not much reading, so, is it possible to learn to speak simple phrases in a short amount of time?


i am going to write my notion of the language and how it may be for you .


i don't exactly know whether you will speak Japanese in a short amount of time.
but, speaking japanese is far easier than reading that.


in japan, many people from other countries can speak japanese fluently, but,
reading is an another problem.
there are people who cannot read or write kanji much, even they have lived in japan
for 16 years or so but they can speak japanese fluently.
and actually, there are also people who can read and write japanese fluently too.

i think that depends on how well you are interested in the language, or how well they
want to acquire the language.


i think japanese language seems very difficult, but to be able to speak it is not so difficult.
because i think once you can get used to the structure of the language, you will be able to speak
that easily because there are few exceptions of structure of the language.


as for reading , it is extreamly difficult, even for japanese （especially for children ）
so if you don't want to learn that , i think you don't need to do that absolutely.

but, in my opinion, i think learning reading that would enlarge your world and outlook remarkably.

japanese language places great importance on the writing system.
the 3 writing systems of japanese makes japanese japanese.
those are a key of japanese language and are its identity.
so the systems have a great influence on speaking of it naturally.

when japanese people speak,
they imagin the characters, such as kanji and katakana , hiragana
because there are a lot of word written by kanji or with hiragana which has same pronouciation and different meaning（each kanji has its own meaning）
and words of foreign things and people and slangs which are written by katakana.
such things are needed because of not only the problem of necessity,
but also japanese culture and japanese sense of values.

so only speaking or listening the language would enable you to watch anime( talk）
roughly and you can enjoy it
but it does not give you all of values of the anime and images of the words the characters are
having the meaning in that exactly.

so perhaps only speaking japanese will cause some trouble for you in the future（this is only my expectation ）


the reason why i wrote my notion of this language is that i want you to know the fact now.


but that is only my personal notion, so how you take that is up to you.

but i really wish you would be able to enjoy what you do in japanese.

ganbatte kudasai. good luck～=☆



∮if you have something which are incomprehensible
or anything, please say it and ask me.

^^ｖ

[gencbiba]

To tell you the truth, I come from a multi-lingual family so I don't think learning how to read would be a problem. My family can speak Chinese, Russian, Italian, French, German, and Arabic... Not that I'm trying to boast or anything, I'm just stating that I think I would have a pretty good chance to learn quickly since I've been exposed to many languages over my years.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

The only thing with that is... how will you be able to formulate sentences without knowing basic grammar construction?

[Kyuusai]

There are many gaijin who get by in Japan able to speak fairly well but being nearly completely illiterate, kanji-wise.

Nonetheless, don't sell yourself short. Yes, learning kanji is a big job, but it's not the nightmare people make it out to be. On top of that, one can become semi-literate with a fairly small number of kanji.

And if you learn the radicals and study them in context, you'll find it's much, much easier to memorize than it initially seems. Just by themselves, it would be very, very hard, but as you recognize their patterns and are able to map it to the spoken language, the rocky road becomes a good bit smoother.

But even if you decide to shun kanji, at least learn kana. It's not that hard, and it will pay off tremendously.

[DingoEnderZOE2]

I would like to know a simple question about a Japanese phase. Can the Phase "Kanpai" be used before biting into a meal instead of drinks? I saw it on tv once with two Gaijins saying it and I was wonder if thats right.

[martino]

Has anyone managed to pick up some Japanese(spoken) just by watching anime or other stuff spoken in Japanese?

I've have watched about 330 hours(~14 days) of anime in Japanese and by now I'm able to understand the meanings of simple sentences. For example I just shut my eyes while watching for a few seconds, listen to what they're saying and then play it back while watching the subs. I can usually get the basic meaning of the sentence, up to a certain level. Long sentences are just impossible for me to get. Myself I know Slovak, Italian, English and a bit of French and Latin. I never really had problems studying a foreign language. It's more my motivation that fails me. Is it possible to learn Japanese(I mean just on a basic level) whithout actually knowing the writing(kanji and the other ones)?

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Sometimes I can, but usually its only a few words here and there, and sometimes when the adjectives are conjugated into the more complicated tenses like the volitional I get lost and confused.

[Furudanuki]

Edit: Please disregard post - I was able to find a source for the info I needed.

[Theowne]

Has anyone managed to pick up some Japanese(spoken) just by watching anime or other stuff spoken in Japanese?

I don't know about actually picking it up, but after watching for a while I have been able to grasp some basic knowledge (very very basic) and can identify words and occasional phrases, and in some cases even be able to predict the general idea of what is being said. Oddly enough I've even noticed some similarities in some words to words of the same meaning in my language, tamil, but it's probably just a coincidence.

[Ziv]

how do you spell the word for "save me"? is it "taskite"?

[rio]

how do you spell the word for "save me"? is it "taskite"?


"tasukete" desu.

たすけて
助けて。


"tasukete kudasai" is a formal way of that.

[Bloodseeker]

1. Its frustrating waiting for groups to translate Japanese games.

2. The best way to solve these kinds of problems is to eliminate the middle man.

There have been a few times where I was slightly tempted to learn Japanese under that thought process, but really, I don't think that it would be worth it to dedicate hundreds of hours mastering a language that I'm never going to use outside of anime, manga, and videogames. Not only that, but living in a community where not a whole lot of people speak it as their primary language would make it MUCH harder to learn. And I wouldn't be able to make any money off of it either, seeing as how Japanese translators aren't exactly in high demand...

The only way that I'd take the time and effort to learn the language is if either myself or one of my close friends or family members moved to Japan. (which actually isn't as unlikely as it sounds... my mom is about to retire and she's looking for another job; she loves Japan, and has talked about looking for work over there on more than one occassion; I doubt that she'll even look, but if she does look and decides to take a job over there, I'll probably live over there for six months or so and try to learn the language)

[martino]

Cool! That's a good opportunity for you to learn Japanese.

http://www.nyanko.ws/games/himawari/doku.php
Has anyone heard anything about this???

[killeraargh]

nope, sorry~

and I'm learning Japanese!

well, I was...until I lost my book.....

:(

[CarpeDiem]

I don't think that it would be worth it to dedicate hundreds of hours mastering a language that I'm never going to use outside of anime, manga, and videogames. Not only that, but living in a community where not a whole lot of people speak it as their primary language would make it MUCH harder to learn. And it wouldn't be able to make any money off of it either, seeing as how Japanese translators aren't exactly in high demand...

You don't have to value learning a language for its practicality. I'm learning Japanese, yet I have no plans to live in Japan, nor do I live in a place where it's the primary spoken language (though there is a larger Japanese-speaking community here than in other many other parts of the United States). People learn Japanese for a variety of different reasons - be it for fun, to be able to understand their anime/manga/games/etc, or because they're moving there and figured it'd be best to learn the language.

And that last part about the Japanese translator thing is very, very wrong. Japanese translators are in very high demand.

[Supergrunch]

I'm learning Japanese for three reasons: I love the language, I'm interested in the culture, and I want to be able to appreciate untranslated Japanese stuff.

[Bloodseeker]

That last post had a lot of typos...

You don't have to value learning a language for its practicality. I'm learning Japanese, yet I have no plans to live in Japan, nor do I live in a place where it's the primary spoken language (though there is a larger Japanese-speaking community here than in other many other parts of the United States). People learn Japanese for a variety of different reasons - be it for fun, to be able to understand their anime/manga/games/etc, or because they're moving there and figured it'd be best to learn the language.

How is it practical to spend a lot of money and hundreds of hours learning a language that you're never going to use outside maybe 1000 hours of your life? I'm not planning on moving to Japan right now, and there aren't a whole lot untranslated game that I'm interested in playing.

And that last part about the Japanese translator thing is very, very wrong. Japanese translators are in very high demand.

Really? Because when I visited Tokyo, like 3/4ths of the people that I talked to knew at least enough English to understand what I was saying and give me directions, and I've never ran into any Japanese people here in the States that didn't know English. I guess that they could use more English teachers in Japan, but like I said, I'm not planning on moving to Japan right now.

[raikage]

And that last part about the Japanese translator thing is very, very wrong. Japanese translators are in very high demand.

Really...? I would have thought Chinese translators are (or will soon be) in high demand.

Not to say that pursuing a career as a Japanese translator isn't a bad choice or anything, but it's not like nursing where there's such a high demand you can pick and choose from companies to work for.

[CarpeDiem]

How is it practical to spend a lot of money and hundreds of hours learning a language that you're never going to use outside maybe 1000 hours of your life? I'm not planning on moving to Japan right now, and there aren't a whole lot untranslated game that I'm interested in playing.

I never said it was practical. I was saying that you don't have to judge whether or not to learn a language on reasons of practicality. Everyone has their own hobbies, from video games to, yes, learning foreign languages. You can't tell me that video games are a practical way to spend your time, yet many of us do it anyway simply because we enjoy it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The same applies to learning foreign languages. One can study simply for the experience of learning a new language. Everyone has their own highs.

Really? Because when I visited Tokyo, like 3/4ths of the people that I talked to knew at least enough English to understand what I was saying and give me directions, and I've never ran into any Japanese people here in the States that didn't know English. I guess that they could use more English teachers in Japan, but like I said, I'm not planning on moving to Japan right now.
I won't get too far into the technicalities of translating, but here are some points that you should know about it:
- Translators usually translate from the target language into their native language (i.e. A native English speaker translates other languages _into_ English). They usually don't do this the other way around. Thus, what would be in high demand are native English speakers that know Japanese.
- Translating is an underrated profession that requires a good deal of work, especially in translating between two very, very different language (English and Japanese). You're not translating the words between the languages; you're translating the meanings (a reason why translators translate _into_ their native language - to make it sound as natural as possible to people who will read the English translation).

Really...? I would have thought Chinese translators are (or will soon be) in high demand.

Not to say that pursuing a career as a Japanese translator isn't a bad choice or anything, but it's not like nursing where there's such a high demand you can pick and choose from companies to work for.

True. Chinese translators seem to be in high demand as well. As for the job availability for Japanese translators, it is actually pretty high (though I'm not sure how well it compares to the demand for nurses). In the U.S. at least, since ties with Japan are pretty close, the government has a need for translators. Moreover, there are translating organizations out there, and even if you don't join them, you could always freelance.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

^^^ To this (top, Bloodseeker's first comment of the above post) I would argue that there is great value in learning a foreign language. Outside just Japanese, I'm almost completely fluent in Spanish. I visited Spain for seven weeks on a study program with Indiana University during the summer, taking classes and living with a Spanish host family. The catch to the whole thing was, the was NO ENGLISH ALLOWED. If we spoke english, we had broken a rule and were sent home. In other words, we would have wasted $5,000 for nothing. When we (the other students and I) were there, we were forced to speak and communicate completely in Spanish. It really made us improve exponentially. I'm not kidding.

My point is, don't underestimate the value of a foreign language, no matter what it is. Hell, I'm also trying to teach myself Dutch, in addition to learning Spanish and Japanese in school. (I'm trying to get experience in all sorts of languages, and as you may have seen, I've also created my own)

Being able to converse and read and write in any foreign language opens all sorts of avenues, and as said before by someone other than myself, it cuts out the middle man, of course referring to having to wait for English translations of things like manga.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

I don't understand how it's supposed to work... *confused*

[errorrrr]

easiest way to learn japanese is to go to japan for about year... based on the assumption you memorized hiragana and katakana completely... I am chinese, and it took me a year of ESL class in the United States to speak, and listen fluently; i was able to read and pronounce correctly, but unable to comprehend everything, and writing is the biggest diffculty, which simply requires time. It really speeds up speaking and listening when you listen and speak that language 24/7 as someone pointed out going to Spain and learn very fast. Writing takes time no matter what. And reading comprehension requires time... vocabulary building in ANY language requires time, even native speakers...

[raikage]

新----立-木-斤
input by kanji structure without reading


*is also confused*

New standing tree axe?

[taoyan]

Japanese Kanji like Chinese characters ,every one can be divided to 5 basic brush 1- Lateral ,2- Vertical , 3- Left sweep , 4- Dot/Right sweep . 5- Bend.
We use the number 1,2,3,4,5 to represent it .and we divided keyboard to 5 regions.
The keyboard contains five regions, organized by the direction of the root first stroke. Each region contains five keys (making twenty-five keys in total), and each key contains a number of character roots.

Each region proceeds in the same manner, from the inner-most key on the keyboard to the outer-most. Region 1 (lateral) is represented by keys 11-15, region 2 (vertical) by keys 21-25, region 3 (left sweep) by keys 31-35, region 4 (dot/right sweep) by keys 41-45, and region 5 (bend) by keys 51-55.

We will refer to the individual keys by the key number and letter: neither 12 nor F, but 12F. Thinking of the keys in this notation will help your conceptual understanding of WuBiKanJi . However, we will refer to the WuBiKanJi codes, composed of multiple keys, by only the letters: QWERT, for example.

And in Japanese language there have another keyboard of Kana keyboard so there have Japanese character in this keyboard diagram(たていすか).

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Wow, that's kinda complicated, don't you think?

[taoyan]

because Asian always used write Kanji,they know how to write ,so they know how to input it even he did not how to reading it.

[raikage]

I'm sort of seeing how the system works; it's just very cumbersome.

Microsoft's IME actually seems to work well enough for me when I want to type in Japanese.

[Syaoran]

Microsoft's IME actually seems to work well enough for me when I want to type in Japanese.
It is annoying when you don't have a qwerty keyboard and the registry hack for azerty gets reverted after a while for some reason...
Good thing SCIM Anthy is fantastic for typing Japanese (Linux)

Hmmm... could someone tell me if I got this right ? It's important ^^ >> ordered a textbook for university, as the usual sell point got a 3 months delay on this one O.o
xxx 様

オンラインよりご注文ありがとうございました。
お見積もり、お支払方法ご案内申し上げます。

ＸＡ−０５４２
ＢＡＳＩＣ　ＫＡＮＪＩ　ＢＯＯＫ　ＶＯＬ．１　２，４００
送料（EMS）　２，８００
梱包手数料　１００
クレジットカード手数料　３１８
合計　￥５，６１８

③ VISA/MASTERカードをご利用の場合
　　　　　　 カード番号、有効期限、所有者のお名前をお知らせ下さい。
　　　　　　　 ※手数料として[教材代金+送料+梱包料]の６％を申し受けます。

★お問い合わせ、ご入金の際は必ず御見積番号をお知らせ下さい。

株式会社凡人社麹町店
坂井訓久
E-Mail:ksakai@bonjinsha.com
tel:03-3239-8673
fax:03-3238-9125
So, they confirm my order of Basic Kanji Book Volume 1 and tell me the price, including, shipping & handling, packaging & credit card commission (6% of the book's price) for a total of 5,618円

They also confirm my payment method: by credit card.
Now... the tricky thing for me ^^'

They want me to communicate the card holder's name, CC number and expiration date?

I'm not sure what they mean by this:
★お問い合わせ、ご入金の際は必ず御見積番号をお知らせ下さい。

It's a strange way to pay... never encountered this way of doing it. Do I just email Sakai-san with the CC info requested and that's it ?

Thanks in advance m(._.)m

[Cruzz]

xxx 様

オンラインよりご注文ありがとうございました。
お見積もり、お支払方法ご案内申し上げます。

ＸＡ−０５４２
ＢＡＳＩＣ　ＫＡＮＪＩ　ＢＯＯＫ　ＶＯＬ．１　２，４００
送料（EMS）　２，８００
梱包手数料　１００
クレジットカード手数料　３１８
合計　￥５，６１８

③ VISA/MASTERカードをご利用の場合
　　　　　　 カード番号、有効期限、所有者のお名前をお知らせ下さい。
　　　　　　　 ※手数料として[教材代金+送料+梱包料]の６％を申し受けます。

★お問い合わせ、ご入金の際は必ず御見積番号をお知らせ下さい。

株式会社凡人社麹町店
坂井訓久
E-Mail:ksakai@bonjinsha.com
tel:03-3239-8673
fax:03-3238-9125



Thank you for your online order.
Cost estimate and explanation of payment methods follow.

ＸＡ−０５４２
ＢＡＳＩＣ　ＫＡＮＪＩ　ＢＯＯＫ　ＶＯＬ．１　２，４００
Shipping （EMS）　２，８００
Packing　１００
Credit card handling fees ３１８
Total　￥５，６１８

3. When using VISA/MASTERCARD
Let us know the card number, expiration date and the name of the cardholder.
※We will charge a handling fee of 6% from the shipping and packing fees and the teaching material price

When you wish to ask a question, or wish to pay, remember to include the estimate code/number.


So yes, I'd assume you're simply supposed to e-mail them the CC details and the estimate code(/number) (XA-0542? Or something in the title of the e-mail? Shrug, not familiar with their systems) if nothing else has been specified elsewhere.

[Syaoran]

Thank you for your online order.
Cost estimate and explanation of payment methods follow.

ＸＡ−０５４２
ＢＡＳＩＣ　ＫＡＮＪＩ　ＢＯＯＫ　ＶＯＬ．１　２，４００
Shipping （EMS）　２，８００
Packing　１００
Credit card handling fees ３１８
Total　￥５，６１８

3. When using VISA/MASTERCARD
Let us know the card number, expiration date and the name of the cardholder.
※We will charge a handling fee of 6% from the shipping and packing fees and the teaching material price

When you wish to ask a question, or wish to pay, remember to include the estimate code/number.


So yes, I'd assume you're simply supposed to e-mail them the CC details and the estimate code(/number) (XA-0542? Or something in the title of the e-mail? Shrug, not familiar with their systems) if nothing else has been specified elsewhere.
どうもありがとうございます。m(_ _)m
Gonna reply tonight when I done with my homework or tomorrow afternoon...
Guess I'll just do it in English. I've no idea how to write a letter in Japanese anyway (me = still noob)

[Spectacular_Insanity]

because Asian always used write Kanji,they know how to write ,so they know how to input it even he did not how to reading it.

I'm Korean, but that doesn't mean I can do that. That's just a stereotype. But I think that, underneath my ravishingly handsome face, I'm still an American.

[johnnybabe]

i think only the chinese asians can cause i can write and even read some of them kanji,im not sure about indians,malays,thais,philipinos or koreans though...but can u read korean?i wouldnt consider u asian if u dont know ur mother tongue neither is african americans truly africans.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

I'm korean, even if I don't know korean as a language. My ethnicity doesn't change.

[raikage]

I'm Chinese, and I only speak a tiny bit of Toisan.

[Rocl-Lee]

i have learned some words and thanks for your help

[kj1980]

Most Japanese just use romaji to type.

Input: わ by typing "w" and "a"
Input: た by typing "t" and "a"
Input: し by typing "s" and "i" (or "s," "h," "i" your preference in using kunrei or Hepburn romaji)
Press space bar: わたし changes to 私

[Potatochobit]

when i type romaji with a US keyboard most JP get offended its not in hiragana, Ha....

i wouldnt really waste too much time learning kanji. just learn the common ones. i have forgotten at least 70% of the ones i used to know; when you dont write letters and stuff it all just disappears from your memory slowly over time...

and there are quite a few online kanji translators u can copy and paste to learn them. looking up kanji in a book is also a pain if you dont really know how it works. but having a reference book to carry around with you is not a bad thing neither.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

That's why you should take a formal class. because Ito-sensei writes in kanji all the time, we're forced to know it. It's really the best way. She gives us way too much homework, which gets to be alot when I have 3 AP classes to do, but it's a fun class nonetheless. A few people dropped out this year, so now we only have 5 people, lol. It's barely a class. :P

[raikage]

There are so many homonyms in Japanese that I can't fathom trying to read without them.

Granted, I don't know that many (maybe 300 at best) but if a newspaper had to switch from kanji to all-kana it might double or triple in thickness.

[Shini_GamI]

There are so many homonyms in Japanese that I can't fathom trying to read without them.

Granted, I don't know that many (maybe 300 at best) but if a newspaper had to switch from kanji to all-kana it might double or triple in thickness.

LOL, then that will make life even more complicated... Costs of the newspaper will get higher :mad:

[Kyuusai]

LOL, then that will make life even more complicated... Costs of the newspaper will get higher :mad:

Either that or print will get smaller and sales of reading glasses will go up. :D

Kanji survives likely because the kana did not account for pitch differences that are used to differentiate words in normal speech.

Oh, well. At least I can use all these characters I'm studying in other languages, too. :)

[DingoEnderZOE2]

The only way I've known when it comes to Learning Japanese was 6 years of teaching myself. Despite what some people say when it comes teaching yourself a language that it doesn't help, it actually helped me out quite alot. By using the internet,manga,anime(it helped me recongnize words easier) and various books.

What came after that was a class in high school which didn't do much but help confirm that all my self teaching wasn't a waste because I aced the class.(Of course theres always more to learn and I'm looking forward to learning more.^_^) Currently I'm trying to study up on how to translate Japanese to English properly and efficiently with creative writing and proper grammar.

What other best ways to learn Japanese do you guys think there are?

[chison]

now a day i watch anime without fansub...

but even i can understanding most of the anime talking....
i still unable to read Japanese manga at all...

[Gibilterra]

For me,now,I can understand english voiced Ace Combat and Devil may cry without japanese sub.
It was difficult to understand english frequently and 6 years was needed to do it.
But now I can understand them and hope to make my english more and more better.

[martino]

What other best ways to learn Japanese do you guys think there are?
Watch anime all day long :D

Does anyone have a comprehensive site which explains all the honorifics(-san, -kun...) and when they are used. I know their basic use, but I would like to find out a bit more about it...

[Aoie_Emesai]

That's why you should take a formal class. because Ito-sensei writes in kanji all the time, we're forced to know it. It's really the best way. She gives us way too much homework, which gets to be alot when I have 3 AP classes to do, but it's a fun class nonetheless. A few people dropped out this year, so now we only have 5 people, lol. It's barely a class. :P

lol, 5 people, it was just like my physics class in high school. But i decided to take a japanese course for the heck of it, maybe i can understand some of my art books better now ^_^. Speaking and writing japanese are totally different.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Oh, definitely. The funny part about Japanese is that the Kanji more or less is all from Chinese, so when I go into chinese restaurants, I see all this kanji that I'm sure means something completely different...

[rio]

Watch anime all day long :D

Does anyone have a comprehensive site which explains all the honorifics(-san, -kun...) and when they are used. I know their basic use, but I would like to find out a bit more about it...



maybe, wikipedia's info is good to see first i think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_titles



and , this page is also good for you so i paste it.
This is about japanese 'pronouns' .'I' and 'you' are very important factors of japanese language and
those are closely related to persons ' character , position, situation and emotion etc.（especially character.）
so those are seen as very important things among japanese.

it also can be said in anime.
so the knowledge of the pronouns is a very good way to acquire and understand
japanese language and watch anime. ^^





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns


p.s the pronouns of the list are only famous ones.
it is said that japanese 'I' 's number is over 100.
but you often hear the list's pronouns in most anime.

[teek]

I didn't bother to read the entire thread, but I am learning Japanese right now through a class taught by a native speaker. There's a bunch of things in the first posts that, compared to what I learned, are wrong. For example watashi is a neutral "I" so both males and females can use it. The issue is that because you watch anime, they're speaking in a more casual way so they tend to use the other forms. However, in class we're taught the way such that we won't offend anyone with the japanese we know.

Given that, I really do think that if you want to speak and communicate japanese in a "good" or polite way, you should take a formal course so that you can learn the language correctly. For example, after reading some of the posts here from people that claimed to have learned english from television shows and the like, you notice that while they can communicate, they're doing so at a much lower or less formal way than is possible with the language. No one bothers to correct their english because they get the point and in fact, many native english speakers will think they're coming off as being rude or uneducated when really they're just using what they learned. I imagine it is no different if you want to go the other direction (an english speaker that wants to learn a foreign language).

Another benefit is you can ask questions regarding the subject and get a better definition or translation of the phrase's meaning. When you learn on your own, if you make a mistake, you don't know that you've made it whereas if you make a mistake in class, you are instantly corrected.

I saw some comments about kana and kanji and while I agree that learning the writing system is important, I don't agree that English speakers learning Japanese should be forced to learn the kana as the first week of the course. My course, however, is focused on communication while most university courses for a degree are for study of the language.

For example, when I took French at the university level, the course was geared towards grammar and reading because by the end of the 2nd year, you were expected to be able to read an article or book in French. After that they could start teaching you about literature in addition to the language. This is analogus to regular English courses American students take in school. At the elementary level, you start by learning basics of the language and grammer. After that, they start forcing you to read books and study literature. For myself, I'm not so much interested in learning literature, but I would like to be able to learn the language and culture.

Now my course is titled "Japanese for communication" and we are not required to learn the kana within the first week. We are required to be able to recognize each hiragana by the end of the first course. So we still learn kana but it is much easier on the student because you slowly transition from the roman alphabet system to the kana system. I like it better because as we are tested on the hiragana, words written using hiragana are given and we are expected to write the roman equivalent. In doing so, you begin to associate the symbols to words which helps reinforce the relationship in your memory whereas if you just memorized the entire kana right away, those relationships wouldn't get into your head quickly because you're stumbling too much or making too many errors in the process.

Like I said, my course focuses on communication so most of the time in class is spent listening and speaking. I find this very helpful because we may say the same phrase many many times and maybe change a noun 5 times yet the rest of the phrase remains the same. For example, on the first day we learned how to introduce ourselves. First we said the phrase as a class a few times. Then each person in the class (roughly 15 people) stood up and said the phrase again. Then after that we said the phrases a few more times! Later, we learned "kochira wa" and guess what, we went around the class introducing ourselves yet again!

You never get that at a university level course because they go at a blazing speed. I find that what I learn in this course, although is much less, I understand what I am saying better and when I hear it said, I can quickly understand and pick up the phrase.

Finally, some have made the claim that they don't need to learn another language because it isn't practical to their everyday life, and while correct, I don't agree that there is absolutely no point in learning another language even though it isn't practical.

The study of foreign language is a requirement of most high school and college curiculum because it widens your knowledge of other cultures and language foundations. Without learning another language, you will go on thinking that the language you know is all that's needed when really the language you know shares similarities with other languages.

Take for example nouns and verbs. Every language has some form of them. In school they teach you things like that. But they don't teach you any further. So let's go on to things like verb tenses. English has several tenses in addition to the standard past, present, and future tenses. There are also other forms like the imperfect which are present in other languages like French (imparfait). In english I can say something like "I ate a lot" vs "I used to eat a lot." The former means at one point in the immediate past I ate a lot of something while the later means in the past, I consistently ate a lot for a period of undetermined time--this is the imperfect tense. Either way, the languages have different ways of expressing this information and you would never have guessed it unless you really studied the language or compared it to a foreign language. I find learning these tidbits helps me express myself even better in English because now I'm forced to understand language at a whole new level.

Besides, the U.S. is probably the only place where "educated" people can only fluently speak and understand one language. Everywhere else they're at least forced to learned English fluently in addition to their native language. Be a little considerate and attempt to learn some others even though you may not achieve a fluent understanding.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

^^ I agree with everything in this post.

Except for the French stuff, cause I know nothing about it. I take Spanish and Japanese as my only two real languages.

[martino]

Besides, the U.S. is probably the only place where "educated" people can only fluently speak and understand one language. Everywhere else they're at least forced to learned English fluently in addition to their native language. Be a little considerate and attempt to learn some others even though you may not achieve a fluent understanding.
You can sort of count UK into that category. When I came to Edinburgh I started learning French and I thought that the course was poor. After four years of learning I couldn't really see many people that could put it on a CV as a language that they learned. And most people dropped it anyway the next year when it wasn't a compulsory subject("Why do we need to learn another language when you can speak English anywhere").
In Slovakia(my home country) I learned English in three years flat, and was able to use it very well(as were my classmates). And as addition we had to learn another language.

It is always good to know languages. You never know when they come in handy.

//d'oh, I went kinda off topic there... :( gomen

[SSJiffy]

Sono hito wa toshokan ikimashita.
That person went to the library.

Are wa momo desu ka.
Is that over there a peach?

Ganbatte kudasai Koshi-dono. Ganbatte kudasai Koshi-dono. Ganbatte kudasai Koshi-dono.

Are those correct, any better way to state them? Also, how would I go about stating the month (~gatsu), day (~yoobi), and present time (gogo/gozen ~ji), all in the same sentence?:)

[Quarkboy]

Sono hito wa toshokan ikimashita.
That person went to the library.


You're missing the particle "ni" to indicate destination of movement:

"Sono hito wa toshokan ni ikimashita"



Are wa momo desu ka.
Is that over there a peach?

Ganbatte kudasai Koshi-dono. Ganbatte kudasai Koshi-dono. Ganbatte kudasai Koshi-dono.

Are those correct, any better way to state them? Also, how would I go about stating the month (~gatsu), day (~yoobi), and present time (gogo/gozen ~ji), all in the same sentence?:)


Just concatenate them without anything in between:

Watashi no tanjoubi wa senkyuuhyakunanajyuukyuunenjyuunigatsunijuugonichi desu.

[Omiane]

I just got Rosetta Stone Japanese Edition and I was wondering if anyone else used this and if it helped and if they liked it.

[Syaoran]

I had them and sold them again on ebay -_-
No way you can learn correct Japanese with it.

I mean, you don't even know how to conjugate -u or -ru verbs. Same for i- and na-adjectives i.e.

A much better solution is buying the books from JapanTimes: Genki - An introduction to modern Japanese with their audio CDs. I think they even make CD/DVD editions now.
I bought them last year. Too bad they use "A course in Modern Japanese" from Nagoya Daigaku at university instead of Genki :p (would have saved me some money), but honestly, all I've seen the past 4 weeks sounds familiar thanks to Genki, except for lots of new some vocabulary :)

[raikage]

Watashi no tanjoubi wa senkyuuhyakunanajyuukyuunenjyuunigatsunijuugonichi desu.

Another reason why using kanji is good. :heh:

[SSJiffy]

I've another thing here:

I'm trying to say "Motoko-san's favorite food is pizza."
I've translated it as: Motoko-san no tabemono wa suki ga piza desu. Correct or is there a simpler way to say it?

One last thing, if I'm describing Motoko instead of saying 'Motoko-san wa' in every sentence, can I just omit it and people will understand me?


--
Thanks for the clarification. :cool:

[Quarkboy]

I've another thing here:

I'm trying to say "Motoko-san's favorite food is pizza."
I've translated it as: Motoko-san no tabemono wa suki ga piza desu. Correct or is there a simpler way to say it?


Um... no that's a bit off. What you had means (approx) "Matoko's food's "Like" is pizza"

The correct way is

"Motoko-san no ichiban suki na tabemono wa pizza desu"

Remember, "A likes B" uses the form "A wa B ga suki desu" But here you asked for "favorite food", which requires a bit more complex imbedded clause.


One last thing, if I'm describing Motoko instead of saying 'Motoko-san wa' in every sentence, can I just omit it and people will understand me?


Yes, when there wouldn't be confusion. Let's see an example dialogue

A-san: Motoko-san wa pizza ga suki desu ne.
B-san: Pizza ga suki desu ka? Demo, hambaaga ga suki da to iimashita kedo...
A-san: Maa, ano kanojo, donna tabemono demo suki dakara na..

A: Motoko-san likes pizza, doesn't she?
B: She likes pizza? But she said she likes hambergers...
A: Well, that girl likes anything edible...

[SSJiffy]

Doomo. Which of these two sentences is clearer?

Motoko-san no nihon no bungaku no kurasu wa suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

Motoko-san wa nihon no bungaku no kurasu ga suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

I'm trying to say: Ms. Motoko's Japanese literature class is on wednesday and friday at 8am.

[Quarkboy]

Doomo. Which of these two sentences is clearer?

Motoko-san no nihon no bungaku no kurasu wa suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

Motoko-san wa nihon no bungaku no kurasu ga suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

I'm trying to say: Ms. Motoko's Japanese literature class is on wednesday and friday at 8am.

Umm... it depends on context. #1 is better when said alone. #2 might be more appropriate if used AFTER Motoko-san had been introduced as the topic of conversation. #2 would also be used if there was a hint of contrast.

There is no simple answer here.

[raikage]

I'm also going to go with #1 (though I haven't used my Japanese skills in quite some time).

The first sentence sounds like the answer to the question, "Whose Japanese lit class is on W/F 8am?"

The second one sounds like the answer to the question, "When is Motoko-sensei's J-lit class?"

[FatPianoBoy]

Basically, the best way to differentiate 'wa' and 'ga' is to remember that 'wa' emphasizes what comes after it and 'ga' emphasizes what comes before it. Kinda.
'Wa' is usually translated as 'as for' early on in learning. So, translate the sentence into english that way: "As for Motoko's Japanese literature class, it's on Wednesday and Friday at 8am." Of course, you'd rarely say such a thing in English, but it doesn't sound quite so strange in Japanese (depending on context). Just depends on where you want to put your emphasis. If you get them switched up, you won't confuse anyone - you'll just sound foreign.

[rio]

>Doomo. Which of these two sentences is clearer?

>Motoko-san no nihon no bungaku no kurasu wa suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

>Motoko-san wa nihon no bungaku no kurasu ga suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

>I'm trying to say: Ms. Motoko's Japanese literature class is on wednesday and friday at 8am.

モトコさんの日本の文学のクラスは水曜日と金曜日の午前八時です。

モトコさんは日本の文学のクラスが水曜日と金曜日の午前八時です。

the two sentences are not correct...
but the first sentence is better surely.


>Motoko-san no nihon no bungaku no kurasu wa suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

the point which is wrong of this sentence is only 'hachi-ji desu'

hachi-ji desu → hachi-ji ni hajimarimasu.Or hachi-ji kara desu.



→ Motoko-san no nihon no bungaku no kurasu wa suiyoobi to kinyoobi no gozen hachi-ji ni
hajimari masu）

モトコさんの日本の文学のクラスは水曜日と金曜日の午前八時に始まります。

the second sentence is..


>Motoko-san wa nihon no bungaku no kurasu ga suiyoobi to kin'yoobi no gozen hachi-ji desu.

sorry..gomen ne. this sentence doesn't make sense.

if i try to begin this sentence with'Motoko-san wa', it will be a very complicated sentence, i soppose.

like 'mokoto-san wa suiyoobi to kinyoobi no gozen hachi-ji ni hajimaru nihon no bungaku no
kurasu wo totte imasu'
モトコさんは水曜日と金曜日の午前八時に始まる日本の文学のクラスをとっています。

ne?

so i think the first is clearer .

[Spectacular_Insanity]

You're missing the particle "ni" to indicate destination of movement:

"Sono hito wa toshokan ni ikimashita"

Or, you could say:

"Sono hito wa toshokan he ikimashita."

"he" is pronounced [e].

[harudasakurada]

Going off the whole "wa" and "ga" thing, I have a question.

In my Japanese class, we're currently going over locations of objects, using the basic structure of something like "hon wa tsukue no ue ni arimasu" or "tsukue no ue ni hon ga arimasu."

My teacher said that the "wa" and "ga" in those two aren't interchangable. So basically:
"object" wa "place" ni arimasu
or
"place" ni "object" ga arimasu

My understanding of the difference between wa and ga has never been great, anyway, but I've been told that there's a difference in emphasis.
I don't get why you can't say "hon ga tsukue no ue ni arimasu" or "tsukue no ue ni hon wa arimasu." Well, ok, the second one sounds weird, but I don't get why the first one is a no-no. Help?

[Omiane]

I also have a question what is the correct time to use ano kono and sono I just cant get that.

[raikage]

Going off the whole "wa" and "ga" thing, I have a question.

In my Japanese class, we're currently going over locations of objects, using the basic structure of something like "hon wa tsukue no ue ni arimasu" or "tsukue no ue ni hon ga arimasu."

My teacher said that the "wa" and "ga" in those two aren't interchangable. So basically:
"object" wa "place" ni arimasu
or
"place" ni "object" ga arimasu

My understanding of the difference between wa and ga has never been great, anyway, but I've been told that there's a difference in emphasis.
I don't get why you can't say "hon ga tsukue no ue ni arimasu" or "tsukue no ue ni hon wa arimasu." Well, ok, the second one sounds weird, but I don't get why the first one is a no-no. Help?

I think you can say the first one. :confused:
The second case, 'wa' is not a particle to be used with 'aru/iru'.

I also have a question what is the correct time to use ano kono and sono I just cant get that.

Using, for example, a book:

Kono hon (this book; the book near me)
Sono hon (that book; the book near you)
Ano hon (the book over there, near neither of us)

[rio]

>I think you can say the first one. :confused:

i agree with you raikage-san.

>harudasakurada-san

i am a native speaker.and sometimes hear that are both used.

'hon wa tsukue no ue ni arimasu'本は机の上にあります。
'hon ga tsukue no ue ni arimasu'本が机の上にあります。

'tsukue no ue ni hon wa arimasu' 机の上に本はあります。
'tsukue no ue ni hon ga arimasu'机の上に本があります。


but the situation those are used is different.

i simply imagin when i see this sentence,
'hon wa tsukue no ueni arimasu'本は机の上にあります、

this desk (and book) is in another room and i can't see it now.
and this is just like an answer of the question'Where is the book?''ano hon wa doko ni aruno desuka?'

on the other hand, the next sentence
'hon ga tsukue no ueni arimasu' 本が机の上にあります sounds that the desk and book are before me
and i am looking at it and discribing the situaton to someone.

tsukue no ueni hon wa arimasu

tsukue no ueni hon ga arimasu

is almost same as my explanation.

maybe, 'wa' is used when i want to stand the object out .
and 'ga 'is a usual form of explanation or used when the object is once known to the listener.

（oh, it'S difficult>< ! i have used that naturally without thinking the meanings.）




.. since i am not a proffesional japanese teacher, please ask your teacher
in person.∂_∂.bp ganbattene!

[Omiane]

Oh okay thanks I got another one too. Can you use just dozo anytime without putting it in a sentence I see that in my lesssons but without yoroshiku.

[harudasakurada]

I think you can say the first one. :confused:
The second case, 'wa' is not a particle to be used with 'aru/iru'.


i simply imagin when i see this sentence,
'hon wa tsukue no ueni arimasu'本は机の上にあります、

this desk (and book) is in another room and i can't see it now.
and this is just like an answer of the question'Where is the book?''ano hon wa doko ni aruno desuka?'

on the other hand, the next sentence
'hon ga tsukue no ueni arimasu' 本が机の上にあります sounds that the desk and book is before me
and looking at it and discribing the situaton to someone.

tsukue no ueni hon wa arimasu

tsukue no ueni hon ga arimasu

is almost same as my explanation.

maybe, 'wa' is used when i want to stand the object out .
and 'ga 'is a usual form of explanation or used when the object is once known to the listener.

I sort of understand, I think. However, my teacher used "something ga place ni arimasu" today, and is also not that clear about explaining the difference in general. I guess I'll just ask my tutor, who does a much better job at such things, for further clarification.

Thanks!

[Spectacular_Insanity]

maybe, 'wa' is used when i want to stand the object out .
and 'ga 'is a usual form of explanation or used when the object is once known to the listener.

（oh, it'S difficult>< ! i have used that naturally without thinking the meanings.）




.. since i am not a proffesional japanese teacher, please ask your teacher
in person.∂_∂.bp ganbattene!

Actually, "ga" is used to emphasize the subject.

"Wa" is used to emphasize the topic, or action. In other words, it draws attention to the verb.

Since Mrs. Ito taught us this, I assume she's right since she's a Japanese native, and a language teacher at that.

You said object, which is different from subject, but I assume you meant what I just said. In english, an object is a noun/etc. that an action is performed on. For instance,a noun that might become before a "wo" in japanese.

[Kyuusai]

The best explanation I've heard for "wa" and "ga" is that "wa" introduces or specifies a new subject, "ga" emphasizes or specifies a subject already being discussed.

And if there's no need to introduce, emphasize, or specify the subject, why are you even using the subject at all? :D

The devil's in the details, of course, but it works as a general, concise guideline.

[SSJiffy]

Here's a new one we were shown in class today:

Q: Nande gakko e nan desu ka.
A: Tohoda gakko de ikimasu.

What do nande and gakko mean?

[FatPianoBoy]

Here's a new one we were shown in class today:

Q: Nande gakko e nan desu ka.
A: Tohoda gakko de ikimasu.

What do nande and gakko mean?

Nande = why
Gakko = school

I think 'nande' is 'why' here, anyway. I'm a bit lost without kanji or context. What's the translation they gave you?

[SSJiffy]

Nande = why
Gakko = school

I think 'nande' is 'why' here, anyway. I'm a bit lost without kanji or context. What's the translation they gave you?

I believe this is what went on:

Q: How did you get here (class/school)?
A: I walked here.

[kj1980]

Here's a new one we were shown in class today:

Q: Nande gakko e nan desu ka.
A: Tohoda gakko de ikimasu.

What do nande and gakko mean?

And the Japanese does not make any sense either. Are you sure that was given to you?

[harudasakurada]

Here's a new one we were shown in class today:

Q: Nande gakko e nan desu ka.
A: Tohoda gakko de ikimasu.

What do nande and gakko mean?

Oh, now there are already other replies, but I'll still chime in with what I wrote:

Gakkou = school
Nande = why

However, that question and answer thing is just weird. The question is like "Why do you go to what school?" and the answer is like "I go by/via Tohoda school." :confused: Was it written exactly like that?

[kj1980]

I believe this is what went on:

Q: How did you get here (class/school)?
A: I walked here.

Then the correct Japanese would be:

Q. どうやって学校に来たのですか？ (Dooyatte gakkou ni kita no desuka?)

A. 歩いてきました。 (Aruite kimashita)


Or, the slurred way equivalent to saying:

Q. Yo, how d'ya get to school today?
Q. つーか学校、どうやってきたん？ (Tsuuka gakkou, douyatte kitan?)

A. Duh, by walking!
A. 歩いて来たに決まってんじゃん (Aruite kita ni kimattenjan)

[FatPianoBoy]

And the Japanese does not make any sense either. Are you sure that was given to you?

Yeah, I couldn't make heads or tails of it, either. I thought maybe I just had a sudden case of stupid, so it relieves me to hear you say that :heh:

How did you come to school?
"Dou kitakoto wa nan desu ka?" is how I'd say it.

I walked here.
"Ashi de ikimashita." Lit. "I used my legs to go."

[kj1980]

Yeah, I couldn't make heads or tails of it, either. I thought maybe I just had a sudden case of stupid, so it relieves me to hear you say that :heh:

How did you come to school?
"Dou kitakoto wa nan desu ka?" is how I'd say it.

I walked here.
"Ashi de ikimashita." Lit. "I used my legs to go."

x "Dou kitakoto wa nan desu ka?"
The sentence is specifically asking for the school, so rather than "koko" for here, you should use the noun "school." And remember Japanese is SOV (subject-object-verb). The verb "kita" (come) should come at the end of the sentence.

x "Ashi de ikimashita"
"Iki" is "to go" or "went" used with the pointer "there." You are already "there," so you should say "kita" which is tied to "here."

[~Destiny~]

Hello everyone I need some help with romanji, can anyone tell me what "Watashi wa suka remashta" means? It's really important for me to find out. I apologize if anything is spelled wrong

[Quarkboy]

Hello everyone I need some help with romanji, can anyone tell me what "Watashi wa suka remashta" means? It's really important for me to find out. I apologize if anything is spelled wrong

You probably mean:

"Watashi wa tsukaremashita"

which means I was tired. (or I was exhausted).

[~Destiny~]

You probably mean:

"Watashi wa tsukaremashita"

which means I was tired. (or I was exhausted).

Thank you... hmm I guess it wasn't so important after all><

[FatPianoBoy]

x "Dou kitakoto wa nan desu ka?"
The sentence is specifically asking for the school, so rather than "koko" for here, you should use the noun "school." And remember Japanese is SOV (subject-object-verb). The verb "kita" (come) should come at the end of the sentence.


Ugh... this is why I don't like romaaji.
どう来た事は何ですか。

Still wrong?


x "Ashi de ikimashita"
"Iki" is "to go" or "went" used with the pointer "there." You are already "there," so you should say "kita" which is tied to "here."

Oh, duh. What a stupid mistake :heh:

[kj1980]

Ugh... this is why I don't like romaaji.
どう来た事は何ですか。

Still wrong?


Yes. Horrendously.

[SSJiffy]

I botched the notes really bad today ^^; (I got me a 90 on my midterm so I was a wee bit luff mentally). Here's what my actually instructor wrote:

(name of transportaion) de - by (name of transportaion)
for example; kuruma de - by car
jitensha de - by bicycle
toho de/aruite - by walking

toho de(aruite) gakko e ikimasu/kimasu - I go/come to school by walking
toho de(aruite) gakko e ikimashita/kimashita - I went/came to school by
walking

When you make a question using the above sentence, you replace "toho" with
"nan"(what):
nan de gakko e ikimasu/kimasu ka - How did you go/come(get) to school?
nan de gakko e ikimashita/kimashita ka - How do you go/come(get) to school?


How would you go to San Francisco?
---
nan de San Francico e ikimasuka.
example answer : hikooki de San Francisco e ikimasu,
ex2: kuruma to hikooki de San Fransisco e ikimasu.

[Quarkboy]

toho de(aruite) gakko e ikimasu/kimasu - I go/come to school by walking
toho de(aruite) gakko e ikimashita/kimashita - I went/came to school by
walking

When you make a question using the above sentence, you replace "toho" with
"nan"(what):
nan de gakko e ikimasu/kimasu ka - How did you go/come(get) to school?
nan de gakko e ikimashita/kimashita ka - How do you go/come(get) to school?


How would you go to San Francisco?


I don't like contradicting some actual japanese teacher, but that's not right.

"nan de" means "why?"

The interogative to ask "how?" or "by what means?" is "dou yatte"

So I would say that
nan de gakko e ikimasu ka?
means
"Why do you go to school?"
and
dou yatte gakko e ikimasu ka?
means
"How do you go to school?"

[Quarkboy]

Actually, I have a question for the native speakers myself:

What is the correct way (or ways) to use "ネタ"?

It's not really in any books I have and it has so many uses it is hard to pin down. Can you give some examples?

[Syaoran]

Does someone know a Japanese webshop that is willing to ship electronic dictionaries to Europe ?

Yodobashi and Sofmap simply don't ship at all and Amazon is restricting the shipping for these items to Japan only. I'd like one from Amazon, as they give 35,000 円 discounts on them at the moment and there're some really sweet models too :o
It's really a shame T_T I get plenty of manga & other stuff from Amazon Japan.

If only I knew I was going to study Japanese last year I could have bought one when I was there >___<

The Japan Shop who ships worldwide is damn too expensive compared to what I'd have to pay for shipping & taxes when I order in Japan. Even the product itself is already more expensive is they've to make some profit themselves.

[uplinkhack]

i agree the part about using douyatte instead of nande...nande sounds strange...

anyway guys i think this site not bad for learning: http://japanese.about.com/library/blpod.htm

[SSJiffy]

I received this reply:

"Doo yatte gakkoo e kimahitaka" is more clear than "nan de gakko e
kimashitaka".
Since "nande"has meaing of "why", the sentence "nan de gakko e kimashitaka"
has two meanings, such as "How did you come to school?" and "Why did you
come to school?"

The reason why I teach to use the question "nan de" instead of "doo yatte"
is that, at this point, I want students to learn how tomake basic questions
in Japanese.
For example: jitensha de gakko e kimashita.
When you want to make a question based on the above
sentence, the easy way to do
to replace the word "jitensha" to "nan".

[uplinkhack]

that sort of makes sense since it is basic japanese and it would be easier to learn that way, and later in the course introduce the use of douyatte...

[AK-kun]

You guys are so lucky to be able to learn the language... I can only do so in two years time, provided my grades are good enough.

[uplinkhack]

You guys are so lucky to be able to learn the language... I can only do so in two years time, provided my grades are good enough.
check out the link i posted above...quite a nice place to start reading about the language...grades no good also can learn what :)

[Omiane]

Im learning thru programs and videos and im taking it real seriously I wanna learn so Im dedicating myself to it.

[FatPianoBoy]

You guys are so lucky to be able to learn the language... I can only do so in two years time, provided my grades are good enough.

A classroom isn't the only place you can learn stuff, you know. I've only ever studied on my own and with friends; I've never taken a Japanese class.

[uplinkhack]

as the saying goes, ~ you are limited only by your own imagination~

AK-kun don't worry about your grades. You're only 15 this year and you have plenty of time to check out new stuff. When you're free just look around the internet for some info, or go to the bookshop to check out some Japanese magazines, get a dictionary and you're ready on a brand new learning journey...

and don't give up too soon :)

[SSJiffy]

Hey lads it's been a while since the last question but:

Resutoran no takosu morenos wa totemo oishii desukara dai suki desu.
Takosu wa watashi no dai suki tabemono desu.

Here's what I'm trying to say:
I love the food at Tacos Morenos their food is delicious. Tacos are my favorite food.

Make it better?

[uplinkhack]

for my knowledge, i think this is better:

takosu morenos no ryouri wa totemo oishii desu.
Takosu ga dai suki desu.

[oneil]

From the English word that you wrote, I like to say it this way in Japanese

"Tacos Morenos" to iu resutoran no ryouri wa oishikute, daisuki desu.
Ichiban sukina tabemono wa takosu desu.

"to iu" here is something like an explanation as the listener might never heard of that restaurant name.

[CarpeDiem]

for my knowledge, i think this is better:

takosu morenos no ryouri wa totemo oishii desu.
Takosu ga dai suki desu.


"Tacos Morenos" to iu resutoran no ryouri
"to iu" here is something like an explanation as the listener might never heard of that restaurant name.

I like relating it to English like this:
"takosu morenosu no ryouri" = the food "tacos morenos"
"Tacos Morenosu" to iu resutoran no ryouri = The restaurant food called "tacos morenos"

[SSJiffy]

Yo lads, decided to go dig this thread up from the abyss.

The difference between: iku, kaeru, and deru. When and where do these different verb forms fit? (any examples of usage are appreciated as always ^^).

One more thing. When I'm faced with a new verb (or one I've forgotten) how can I tell if it's a Class 1, Class 2, or Class 3 verb? If this verb-class stuff sounds absurd (and out of the blue to you blame Yookoso! 3rd ed. textbook.)

For example. For an assingment I needed to figure out what 'aimashita' became in short-form. I came up with aru (chigau), amu (chigau), and then finally the correct one: au.

Is there some short-cut to knowing the dictionary form from hearing the ~masu form?

:]

[Syaoran]

Yo lads, decided to go dig this thread up from the abyss.

The difference between: iku, kaeru, and deru. When and where do these different verb forms fit? (any examples of usage are appreciated as always ^^).
行く (to go) - 来月日本へ行きます。
帰る (to return home) - 今は２３時３０分ですから、私たちは帰ります。
出る (to leave) - アパートを出ます。
One more thing. When I'm faced with a new verb (or one I've forgotten) how can I tell if it's a Class 1, Class 2, or Class 3 verb? If this verb-class stuff sounds absurd (and out of the blue to you blame Yookoso! 3rd ed. textbook.)I guess you can say all verbs ending in ~iru or ~eru are class 1.
ie. taberu, miru, deru, ...

Verbs ending in -u verbs from class 2.
ie. yomu, au, kaku, oyogu, asobu, matsu, iku...

Class 3 are irregular verbs such as suru and kuru.
For example. For an assingment I needed to figure out what 'aimashita' became in short-form. I came up with aru (chigau), amu (chigau), and then finally the correct one: au.

Is there some short-cut to knowing the dictionary form from hearing the ~masu form?To get from one form to another, you need to know the formation rules of all those forms.
Class 1 in imperfective affirmative is replacing -ru by -masu. perfective affirmative: -mashita. Class 2 is -imasu/-imashita and so on.
Knowing that, you see that aimashita ends with -imashita > class 2 > au
yobimashita > yobu

That's more or less what it's about. You need to understand this very well. If not, it will be hard to make other forms in the future.
Hope this helps a little ^^

[raikage]

Class 3 are irregular verbs such as suru and kuru.

These are, really, the only Class 3 verbs there are. Everything else is either 1 or 2.

Just thought SSJiffy should know. :)

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Hmmm. I never learned "classes" of verbs in my class. Ito-sensei teaches us the grouping of verbs as:

U-verbs (i.e. utau, aku, oyogu, yomu, kiru, dasu)
*this is probably the largest list as far as sheer numbers go. Conjugation-wise, for the long form (-masu form), the last syllable changes to the i-sound equivalent in the same row (see below). For example: utau --> utaimasu, dasu --> dashimasu

Ru-verbs (i.e. taberu, kaeru)
*This one is my favorite kind, as its by far the easiest. To get the long form, just take off the ru and add -masu. Example: taberu --> tabemasu

Irregular (i.e. iku, kuru, suru)
*This one's tricky, since they seem to be like anyother verb, until your reach forms like the -nai form. The rules depend on the verb. Example: kuru --> konai

あ a い i う u え e お o <--- these are the base vowel sounds
か ka き ki く ku け ke こ ko
さ sa し shi す su せ se そ so
た ta ち chi つ tsu て te と to
な na に ni ぬ nu ね ne の no
は ha ひ hi ふ fu へ he ほ ho
ま ma み mi む mu め me も mo
や ya ゆ yu よ yo
ら ra り ri る ru れ re ろ ro
わ wa を wo

Then there are also subcatagories, such as transitive and intransitive. Transitive verbs take a direct object with wo, where intransitive verbs do not. Most of the time, intransitive verbs take the particle ga with a subject. Ga places the emphasis on the thing that's happening, not the action itself. (Or is it the other way around? It doesn't really matter either way in this case, you just need to use it.)

Example: Akeru & Aku - to open

Both mean to open, but Akeru is a transitive verb, which means it has to take a direct object.

Watashi wa hon wo akeru. I open a book.

However, if you want to say, for instance, "the door opens", you have to use aku (and the suject particle ga).

Doa ga aku. The door opens. (it opens on its own, no one is doing the opening)
Note: When writing "doa" in japanese, it needs to be in katakana, not hiragana.

I apologize if this small explanation was too brief, etc. I also apologize for having everything in romaji. It irritates me, too. I don't have a language pack installed on my home computer so... :heh:

[SSJiffy]

Thanks guys, I feel I'm closing the gap in my understanding with this. And the explanation no matter how brief was helpful, Spectacular_Insanity ;].

[Ewok]

Hmmm. I never learned "classes" of verbs in my class. Ito-sensei teaches us the grouping of verbs as:

Most text books both in Japanese and other languages generally refer to verbs as Class/Group 1, 2 and 3, or 1 - 2 - Irregular. One of the mistakes people make while learning is to treat all -ru verbs as class 2 verbs, and it makes things messy.

A classroom isn't the only place you can learn stuff, you know. I've only ever studied on my own and with friends; I've never taken a Japanese class.

Very true, but you cannot transpose English into Japanese, and textbooks only explain so much. Despite the high quality of explanations in the thread, there are lots of little grammar mistakes. The meaning is still there, its just that it doesn't sound natural ;)

[FatPianoBoy]

Very true, but you cannot transpose English into Japanese, and textbooks only explain so much. Despite the high quality of explanations in the thread, there are lots of little grammar mistakes. The meaning is still there, its just that it doesn't sound natural ;)

What do you mean you can't transpose English into Japanese?
And yes, textbooks can omit things, and example sentences that are completely in romaaji and begin every other sentence with "Watashi wa..." certainly don't help with naturalness.
As for little grammar mistakes, most textbooks claim that there is little to no difference between は and が and offer little or no explanation in the different uses of で. Fortunately, I have native-speaking friends for reference, but most people don't.

[Vexx]

"ga" is used for emphasis or to introduce new information into the conversation. I got two books and a couple of japanese teachers that explained it pretty clearly. I've got one nice book that is about nothing *but* particle use ... but once you catch the flavor for the natural use, it becomes pretty clear when to use what in most cases. I'll edit this to reference a few books I've found helpful .

whether you call the herds of verbs "class" "group" or "flock" is pretty irrelevant as long as it conveys some understanding of what you do with them.

And I really have no idea what ewok means by "can't transpose english into japanese" until he clarifies. He could be referring to cultural assumptions, proverbs, metaphors, or any other complexity to translation. More likely he's saying that "word by word" translation gives you less than meaningful results sometimes.

[Ewok]

What do you mean you can't transpose English into Japanese?

What I mean is that to properly translate you need to be flexible and to not just change Japanese into English, but to change it to be natural - like Vexx said, cultural assumptions, proverbs, metaphors and other complexities mean that you have to translate the "meaning", not what is said or written, to be able to get the most accurate translation.

Allot of people make the mistake of translating what is written instead of what is implied or meant.

[FatPianoBoy]

What I mean is that to properly translate you need to be flexible and to not just change Japanese into English, but to change it to be natural - like Vexx said, ural assumptions, proverbs, metaphors and other complexities mean that you have to translate the "meaning", not what is said or written, to be able to get the most accurate translation.

Allot of people make the mistake of translating what is written instead of what is implied or meant.

Oh. Yeah, definitely. In the little translating that I've done, I found out very quickly that literal translation very rarely makes sense.

@Vexx: I think a friend of mine has the book you speak of. It's made by Kodansha (best Japanese language books ever made) and is called "Basic Japanese Sentence Particles" or something like that. I've been meaning to get that, along with "Basic Japanese Sentence Patterns."

[Ewok]

The Japan Times make a great pair of books on Japanese grammar. The appendix alone is amazing.

[AndyTran]

If you want to ever learn Japanese, please PLEASE first learn hiragana and katakana well. That's the first step. Try to avoid using ever using romaji (like I'm going to use here :heh: ) And yes I know it's bad practice to add a space after every word and particle in a sentence but it's easier to see for those who can't split up words and particles yet.

Grouping Verbs
First of all you need to know the difference between ichi-dan verbs, go-dan verbs, and special verbs.
Ichi-dan verbs, my teacher calls it group 2 verbs, are typically verbs that end in eru or iru. So verbs like taberu, hanaseru, miru, and kiru are all ichi-dan verbs
Go-dan verbs, my teacher calls it group 1 verbs, are pretty much all the verbs that AREN'T ichi-dan verbs. They'll always end with u (う）　syllable at the end like ku (く） or su (す）. Some examples are nomu, tobu, fuku, and kaku. However you have to beware of some sneaky Go-dan verbs that LOOK like ichi-dan but aren't. verbs like kaeru, shiru (to know), iru (to need), and hairu (to enter) are all go-dan but look like ichi-dan
Specials are just ones you gotta remember. They just have their own conjugations. Some of them people before me have already stated. Suru, iku and kuru being the most common

Conjugating
For conjugations there are 5 main groups
Mizenkei　- most commonly used for negatives
Rentaikei - Commonly called "Dictionary Form" and is usually the base for conjugations
Renyoukei - My teacher calls it "stem form" but it's what you use for desu-masu form and various other grammar patterns
Izenkei - Commonly called "Hypothetical Form" and as such is mostly used for "if" statements
Meireikei - Commonly called "Command Form" and is, well, a blunt way to give commands (if you want to ask someone to do something, there are better ways than command form)
There's also te (て） and ta (た） forms in which I don't know what group they're in but te and ta are both essential. Their conjugations are mostly all special so too bad

To make it a bit easier, those five groups are basically conjugated and sorted in a i u e o ending form respectively. Meaning:
Mizenkei （Negative) is usually ended in the sound a (あ）
Renyoukei (Stem) is usually ended in the sound i (い）
Rentaikei (Dictionary) is usually ended in the sound u (う）
Izenkei (Hypothetical) is usually ended in the sound e (え）
Meireikei (Command) is usually ended in the sound e (え　yes e not o. Breaks the pattern but oh well)

We'll be using Rentaikei as the base for all conjugations since that's just how it goes.

Mizenkei
Mizenkei Ichi-dan:
Not much to do here. Just get rid of the ru (る） at the end of the verb.
taberu --> tabe

Mizenkeu Go-dan
Change the last u (う） form syllable of the word into its a (あ） equivalent.
naku --> naka ; furu --> fura
Note that when the last syllable is just う, change it into wa　（わ）
tatakau --> tatakawa

Mizenkei Uses:
As I've already said, its most common use is for plain form negatives. Just slap nai (ない） after the mizenkei form.
taberu would mean "to eat", tabenai would mean "to not eat".
naku would mean "to cry", nakanai would (roughly) mean "to not cry".
tatakau would mean "to fight", tatakawanai would mean "to not fight".

There's also passive form by slapping rareru (られる) after a mizenkei, but I'm too lazy to explain that. Let's just say it's the difference between
"I'm going to kick the dog" and "the dog is going to be kicked by me"
"Watashi wa inu o keru" and "Inu wa watashi ni kerareru"
"わたし　は　いぬ　を　ける”　and "いぬ　は　わたし　に　けられる”
The rareru (られる） form can also refer to potential. In other words a english "can".
so the above "Inu wa watashi ni kerareru" can also be translated as
"I can kick the dog" Whichever translation to pick is based on the context, but I'd say the potential form is far more likely to occur
As a side note, the potential form of suru (する） is dekiru (できる）


Renyoukei
Renyoukei Ichi-dan
Once again, just chop off the ru (る） at the end of the verb and you have the Renyoukei form. Whee

Renyoukei Go-dan
To change from Rentaikei (Dictionary) to Renyoukei, just change the ending u (う) into its (い） counterpart.
nomu --> nomi ; kiku --> kiki

Renyoukei Uses
There are a plethora of different things that involve Renyoukei, but the one a learner should be most associatied with is the polite masu form. If you ever talk to someone you don't know in Japanese, you should ALWAYS begin with desu-masu form and as such, Renyoukei should become second nature. To put something in masu (ます） form, just take the Renyoukei and slap, well, MASU after it.
kiku --> kikimasu ; kakeru --> kakemasu
If you want polite past masu form just put mashita (ました） after the Renyoukei. This is masu form except it's (duh) for the past. It's actually just masu turned into ta (た） form but whatever not important.
dekiru --> dekimashita ; okiru --> okimashita


Rentaikei
Rentaikei Ichi-dan & Go-dan
Wait, if we're using Rentaikei as the base of conjugating into other forms, there's no reason we'd need to know how to conjugate Rentaikei into Rentaikei (unless of course you're in Soviet Russia in which Rentaikei conjugates YOU! okay not funny).
Either way I'll just squeeze in te (て） and ta (た） form into here for jollies

Rentaikei Uses
Jesus Rentaikei is required in a gajillion grammar patterns. Oh well, the most important thing to know is that in plain form when you're talking to closer friends in a more colloquial outlook, just using words in their Rentaikei form is good enough. Also instead of using desu （です）to end every sentence, in plain form if a verb ends the sentence do not add anything after. If it's a noun ending, however, use da (だ） instead of desu. Example Sentence in plain form:
"I'm coming. Your party"
"watashi wa kuru. Anata no paachi da"
"わたし　は　くる。　あなた　の　パーチ だ"


TE (て）　& TA (た） Forms
This one is probably gonna be the hardest to memorize. That's because the conjugation is completely dependant on the last syllable for go-dans. To make it easier, te and ta have basically the same conjugations except that instead of te, it's ta or instead of ta it's te. Sounds confusing but if you look at the table below you'll see what I mean.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/AndyTran1/TeTa.jpg

Te Uses
Progressive form is a very common use for te form. Progressive meaning along the lines of "in the act of doing". Example would be
"I am going to clean my room" and "I am cleaning my room"
"Heya o soujishimasu" and "Heya o soujishiteimasu"
"へや　を　そうじします” and "へや　を　そうじしています”
Basically just take the te form and add on iru （いる） or imasu (います）. This iru means to exist and is therefore ichi-dan (not to be confunsed with the go-dan iru which means to need).

Polite command also requires te form. Just use te form of the verb and add kudasai （ください）. This form is much more used to ask for someone to do something than command form explained later(unless you're watching a shounen anime full of badass dudes that try to speak as rough as possible)
"Please kill"
"koroshitekudasai"
"ころしてください”

Ta Uses
Past plain form is why one would usually need ta form. If you wanted to say something in past but remain in plain form, just end the sentence with the ta form of the verb. Simple no?
"I went left"
"hidari ni itta"
”ひだり　に　いった”

A way to say "if" is also why ta form is important. just add ra (ら） to the end of the ta form to make an if statement. It's very similar to the hypothetical form explained later. What the difference in use is? I really don't know. Also to note, if a sentence ends in a noun or noun adjective, the equivalent to this form would be putting nara (なら） at the end of the sentence replacing da or desu


Izenkei
Izenkei Ichi-dan
Gasp! You don't just chop off ru to put a ichi-dan into izenkei! Instead just change the ru at the end into re (れ）
kiru --> kire ; keru --> kere

Izenkei Go-dan
Same as ever. Just change the ending u (う） syllable into its e (え） counterpart
hanasu --> hanase ; oyogu --> oyoge

Izenkei Uses
It's real use is just add an "if" to you statement. Just take the Izenkei, and ba (ば） to the end of it and there you go, a hypothetical.
"If I sleep now, I can wake up early tomorrow"
"Ima nereba ashita,　hayaku okiraremasu"
"いま　ねれば　あした、　はやく　おきられます”

Though it still uses if, another really common use of izenkei is the "must do something" grammar pattern. this basically takes the hypothetical of nai (ない） your plain form negative and then slapping on either naranai (ならない） and ikenai (いけない） both roughly meaning can not/ should not happen. so if you were to use a negative "if" statement and a followup "cannot happen", a weird translation would come up "if verb does not happen, that instance should not happen" or in other words "I need to verb!" The completed conjugation would of course have to be put on a mizenkei verb since you're using nai. Confusing explanation but let's hope an example can clear it
"I have to walk"
"Arukanareba naranai" or "Arukanareba ikenai"
"あるかなれば　ならない”　or あるかなれば　いけない”
As a side note that whole fat nakereba naranai is often colloquially shrunk down to nakkya naran/iken or even shrunken down further to just nakkya (なっきゃ)

Meireikei
Meireikei Ichi-dan
Like always, just cut off ru and you're done

Meireikei Go-dan
Just like izenkei (hypothetical form) change u (う）　into e (え） equivalents and you have meireikei
fuku --> fuke ; hiku --> hike

Meireikei Uses
Commanding others in a very very rough manner. If you were to talk to your boss in this form, and you weren't his good buddy, then get ready to get fired (or maybe just looked at weird). Strangely enough, you don't need to add anything this time around. It IS extremely common to end a Ichi-dan Meireikei with either ro (ろ） or yo (よ） with ro being more direct (and therefore rude) than yo. But just preferably use te+kudasai form instead; command in Meireikei to a stranger or someone you don't know will make you look like an idiot. Here's a common statement and a good example
"go die"
"shine"
"しね”

There you have it. The 5 primary forms of conjugation. Learn the differences of all these conjugations and you're path to learning grammar patterns becomes infinitely easier.
Note that there are 2 more forms of conjugation but they're never used anymore and is just classical Japanese.
If anyone wants me to add anymore grammar patterns to their specific verb forms just ask. I'll be thankful for any suggestions and mistake checks too!

[Ledgem]

Just for reference to aspiring Japanese learners, I'm in my third year of Japanese study and we never learned the classification terms (izenkei, renyoukei, etc.) so don't get too hung up over it. Do pay attention to what the rules are, however, as those are the very basics of Japanese grammar. Once you have those down, you start building on top of them.

For reference, the program here at the University of Southern California uses なかま１ for Japanese 1 and 2, and なかま２ for Japanese 3 and 4. For "Advanced Japanese 1" we use "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" from the Japan Times. Friends at other schools seem to use げんき or ようこそ！for their textbooks.

[Jewelray]

J
For reference, the program here at the University of Southern California uses なかま１ for Japanese 1 and 2, and なかま２ for Japanese 3 and 4. For "Advanced Japanese 1" we use "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" from the Japan Times. Friends at other schools seem to use げんき or ようこそ！for their textbooks.

I still think that JSL has the best conversations and and situations (well, if you want a good laugh, that is.)

Brown-san: Taxi driver, can you make a u-turn here?
Driver: Well, it's dangerous, but ok.

You know it's a bit outdated when it has ワープロ　and　ソビエト for vocab...

But really, I love JSL. Sue Brown is a total marysue of the author.

"ふろしき？とても便利ですねぇ"

[Ewok]

Agreed that some of the most ridiculous and unrealistic examples are usually given. I love my "Business Japanese" text book which has very little relevance to anything. Makes out life in a Japanese company to you being the tea-serving photocopying office monkey. Where's the part on how to control a meeting or hand out instructions to the newbies??

Brown-san: Taxi driver, can you make a u-turn here?
Driver: Well, it's dangerous, but ok.

Me: Can you take a right here?
Driver: Not really [its a one way street, and cutting through traffic], but I will anyway *grins like an idiot*

ワープロ still gets some use in Japan, mainly among the older crowd and those who see computers as those untamed evil beasts, that they type things into and it prints it out.

Me: "You never save???"
Guy: "No, why? I just type it, print it out and thats that"
Me: "But what if you want to change something?"
Guy :confused: "Don't be silly, I just type it again"

:twitch:

Gotta love working IT.

[Ledgem]

Out of curiosity, what is used in place of ワープロ? It's all I've heard from my instructors with reference to word processing.

[Ewok]

Out of curiosity, what is used in place of ワープロ? It's all I've heard from my instructors with reference to word processing.

I don't get what you mean but, ワープロ is short for ワードプロセッサー, either word processing machines (like typewriters) or word processing software, and its also applied to computers (in the place of パソコン or パーソナルコンピューター), mainly from people who moved over from dedicated word-processing machines or people who just see computers as advanced typewriters.

[Vexx]

Oh. Yeah, definitely. In the little translating that I've done, I found out very quickly that literal translation very rarely makes sense.

@Vexx: I think a friend of mine has the book you speak of. It's made by Kodansha (best Japanese language books ever made) and is called "Basic Japanese Sentence Particles" or something like that. I've been meaning to get that, along with "Basic Japanese Sentence Patterns."

Aye, thats it (I have both books actually) ... I have this silly pile of books --- usually about a 1/3 to a 1/2 of each book is useful --- those two have been quite useful though. I always found it interesting that people (and teachers) make such a big deal out of particles but when they're really not a big deal if you can grok their meta-purpose :)

As I like to say, "the first thing you must do when learning a language ... is stop asking *WHY?* It just is." And the more you know about the axioms of the culture, the more obvious the 'why' is anyway.

[Jewelray]

I love my "Business Japanese" text book which has very little relevance to anything. Makes out life in a Japanese company to you being the tea-serving photocopying office monkey.


The author of JSL must have had a really bad experience (or maybe a typical experience?) at a Japanese company because she pretty much says in the notes for the conversations that that is exactly what any foreigner (especially a foreigner woman) working in Japan will ever be doing. Don't even think about being respected.... just go bring Mr. Tanaka his tea, and don't correct his incorrect english unless it's so bad it'll make the company look bad. (because they didn't hire you, the english speaker, to help people with their english?)

But she seems to be a bitter person in general. When she wasn't trying to convince people not to work in Japan, she was making low blows at Hepburn romanization in favor of her preferred method (which was actually really funny to read...)

[Ewok]

The author of JSL must have had a really bad experience (or maybe a typical experience?) at a Japanese company because she pretty much says in the notes for the conversations that that is exactly what any foreigner (especially a foreigner woman) working in Japan will ever be doing. Don't even think about being respected.... just go bring Mr. Tanaka his tea, and don't correct his incorrect english unless it's so bad it'll make the company look bad. (because they didn't hire you, the english speaker, to help people with their english?)

But she seems to be a bitter person in general. When she wasn't trying to convince people not to work in Japan, she was making low blows at Hepburn romanization in favor of her preferred method (which was actually really funny to read...)

I tend to use rather poor romanization (ワープロローマ字, just because I spend allot of time using a PC to work), but Hepburn is more or less the accepted system, and any problems that it has are faults of the English language and not of the system or the Japanese language. (IMO - that the pronunciation of some Japanese is too subtle or cannot be accurately represented in roman characters with traditional English soundings).

I just plain don't agree with allot of the stereotypes in the business books - I train and manage people who are "lower" than me. I've had my boss call me up a few times and ask me nicely to explain some English terms to him (for example differences between Installation, Design, Deployment, Commission, Procurement, etc). I don't even know where the damn kettle is so making tea is out of the question :p I have a mate who works in for a travel shop and he says its no different to when he worked in London. I know people who work for Apple and Microsoft who say its little different. Lawyers, truck drivers, self-employed people, nothing spectacularly different.

There are some things that are different such as more emphasis on business cards, correct language to superiors, etc, its really not all that different.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Japanese is weird, why do you need to know two types of alphabet? Not only that you have to know kanji . Do you really have to that many kanji? I know about 20 kanji like fire, water one through ten, white, sky, earth, and such.

[FatPianoBoy]

Japanese is weird, why do you need to know two types of alphabet? Not only that you have to know kanji . Do you really have to that many kanji? I know about 20 kanji like fire, water one through ten, white, sky, earth, and such.

I dunno... why do you need to learn lower and upper-case letters in English? Because that's how the writing system works.
Do you need to know kanji? No, if you don't mind being illiterate.

[Ewok]

Japanese is weird, why do you need to know two types of alphabet? Not only that you have to know kanji . Do you really have to that many kanji? I know about 20 kanji like fire, water one through ten, white, sky, earth, and such.

Like, why do you have silent letters in English? If you don't say it, its useless right? And why do you use spaces? Its just an empty space!

Japanesewithoutkanjiislikereadingwritinglikethis.I tsreallyhardtoread.

[raikage]

Japanese is weird, why do you need to know two types of alphabet? Not only that you have to know kanji . Do you really have to that many kanji? I know about 20 kanji like fire, water one through ten, white, sky, earth, and such.

Why bother having both katakana and hiragana?

Well...I guess that could be a good question, but like Vexx said, just don't ask why. Languages develop over time, they're not created like programming code or something.

Besides, it takes all of like two weeks to learn katakana. It's not that complicated. :p

And do they need kanji? Yes, absolutely. Because of the phonetic alphabet, the possibility of mistaking words becomes much higher if kanji is not used. And since one kanji takes the place of several kana letters -- take a newspaper, imagine it about four times as thick, and that's what it would be like without kanji. (It would probably take way longer to read, as well.)

Yeah, it kind of sucks while you're learning it, but when you start to be able to read and recognize some it makes so much more sense why they use kanji.

[Ewok]

Chinese is a language composed purely of tens of thousands of characters, each with unique readings and meanings. That to read Japanese you only need to know around 2000 is a very good thing :)

[Jewelray]

I tend to use rather poor romanization (ワープロローマ字, just because I spend allot of time using a PC to work), but Hepburn is more or less the accepted system, and any problems that it has are faults of the English language and not of the system or the Japanese language. (IMO - that the pronunciation of some Japanese is too subtle or cannot be accurately represented in roman characters with traditional English soundings).


For practical uses, I agree Hepburn makes much more sense. JSL uses the other type of romanization (forgot the name, the one where ti=chi) because the actual book itself is all in romaji (one one the huge downsides to JSL and probably the reason most schools don't use it.) The books take a very scholarly approach to everything and it loves huge, complicated explanations so not surprisingly the book favors the more complicated system. But it helps with the ridiculous explanations to keep things constant because it is closer to the japanese way of viewing the language.

Personally, I don't like it so much. If you are going out of your way to understand the language to that degree, you may as well learn hiragana. It's a real pain when I have to email my Japanese professors (the school email program doesn't support japanese fonts) because I keep switching back and forth between Hepburn and the version we learned and nothing is consistent.

[Ewok]

I'm a big fan of teaching the language IN that language - I learnt Japanese from a Japanese teacher who didn't speak English except to explain individual words. Sure the first year is hard, but the constant exposure to Japanese is what helps, and without English (or romaji) complicating matters things move much smoother.

[Ledgem]

In response to Ewok, Jewelray originally wrote "You know it's a bit outdated when it has ワープロ　and　ソビエト for vocab..." to which you replied

ワープロ still gets some use in Japan, mainly among the older crowd and those who see computers as those untamed evil beasts, that they type things into and it prints it out.

I mistook you both to mean that the term ワープロ was outdated. However I see that Jewelray meant that it's much more common and no longer need be included as special vocabulary to learn (I think?)

As for kanji, it'll be interesting to see how Japan copes with the future (China as well). Western language-based technology is largely responsible for bringing some weaknesses of the picture system to light. I can remember asking a Japanese teaching assistant of mine how many kanji he knew, back when I was just starting to learn kanji. He said that he knew around 2,000, but he could only remember how to write perhaps 300 of them. I'm not sure how long he'd been in America, but it couldn't have been more than four or five years, if that.

One of my friends studied abroad in Japan last semester. She was with some Japanese friends and forgot how a certain kanji character looked. So she asked one of her friends to write it for her, and, as she told it, he couldn't remember. Instead, he whipped out his cellphone, input the phonetics, scrolled through the kanji until he reached the right one (recognition is easier than recollection, in my opinion), and then showed it to her. College student.

Perhaps in the past, when writing by hand was performed more regularly, keeping the characters fresh in one's mind was much simpler. But now, with computer-based input, we're all pretty much working off of recognition of characters. It really weakens our ability to write it later. What happens when you can only write in your language through a computer? Maybe nothing, but it's certainly an interesting thought.

[Jewelray]

I
I mistook you both to mean that the term ワープロ was outdated. However I see that Jewelray meant that it's much more common and no longer need be included as special vocabulary to learn (I think?)


The book uses waapuro to refer to those things that people used instead of typewriters before computers, not like MSWord or computer applications like that. I don't know when those fell out of use, but I know I have never even seen one. Maybe the word has come to mean the computer program as well, but no one uses word processions anymore, making waapuro, as it refers to the machine, an outdated word.

[Ewok]

@Ledgem

That is a very good point, but I don't think it shows a weakness with ideogram based writing systems (Kanji are not pictograms, they convey ideas, not set reading like roman characters - ie. A is A. 日 is a sun, but has several readings).

Handwriting ability among English speakers, especially younger people, is often in the news. Inability to spell (thanks to overuse of slang or over-reliance of spell checkers), and inability to write (neatly) are often pointed out. So its not just the Japanese that are having trouble.

With the basic set of kanji being around 2,000 characters (the joyo kanji list being 1,945 kanji), and many more specialised kanji in common use, its not unusual to expect people to forget a few. But in modern times where practically everything is typed, and only the most basic things are written, its not unusual for people who have left school to forget the less used kanji when it comes time to write.

[AndyTran]

I'd have to say kanji makes the language a LOT harder since you have to remember basically double for each word (hiragana spelling and kanji spelling per word). But on the bright side, it makes it WAY easier to read things especially since Japanese lacks spaces. Not only that, it gives a big leniency towards word creation. A lot of words and names are just kanji with onyomi (sometimes kunyomi and naori, usually furigana is placed first to give exact pronunciation) readings but since each kanji has a meaning, with the context of the sentence, a more vivid representation can be made by writers. You also can't forget the aesthetics as well. Calligraphy is there since kanji, well, sometimes kinda look awesome. Of course kanji is STILL a bastard to learn :mad: .

[Vexx]

One of the driving forces for me is the exercise for the brain (recent studies show people who know more than one language fluently tend to defer dementia by as much as 4 years.. as do serious gamers :) ).
I've come to think of kanji as symbolic representations with their own built-in footnotes and linkage to puns and poetic references.
But praise to whomever thought of putting furigana next to them for newbies :)

[Lavabyle]

Anyone know about a good downloadable kana trainer? Dragonmedia's is pretty good, but theres no downloadable version ^.^ Anyone?

[Ewok]

The only Kana trainer you need. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Notebook_and_pen.jpg/180px-Notebook_and_pen.jpg)

I'm being serious, the only way to truely learn hiragana, katakana and kanji is to write it down. Alot. If you do not make the effort to learn, then you are going to waste your time ;)

[FatPianoBoy]

The only Kana trainer you need. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Notebook_and_pen.jpg/180px-Notebook_and_pen.jpg)

I'm being serious, the only way to truely learn hiragana, katakana and kanji is to write it down. Alot. If you do not make the effort to learn, then you are going to waste your time ;)

Seconded.
I'm finding myself able to read almost twice as many kanji as I am able to write due to the way I'm remembering them: by radicals and mnemonics, similar to the Heisig method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembering_the_Kanji_I), but using more traditional meanings. Not that I don't recommend using this method, as it's extremely effective, but be sure to supplement it with some old fashioned writing practice, too.

[Kyuusai]

+1 on writing it down. Nothing beats it.

It's how we learned the alphabet. Writing shall serve us well, again.

Not only is it more effective, but learning to RECOGNIZE a character is a far cry from KNOWING it. It would suck to not be able to write things you can read perfectly well. I've been there when I'm out of practice, in both Japanese and my native English!

You don't want to be a waapuro gaijin, do you?

[Syaoran]

I was wondering if there're books available to study for the Kanji Aptitude Test. I'm curious and subscribed for Level 10... Anyway. Those kanji aren't a problem. My issue is a huge lack of vocabulary... I mean... those example tests I was given are full of new words I haven't seen during courses. A few from reading other stuff here and there but that's it. Basically it's a failure for 10 € XD

So... are there any books/guides so I can go prepared another time?

[Yukinokesshou]

To Syaoran:

Consider buying a Japanese textbook for Chinese speakers.

I would recommend "Minna no Nihongo", Taiwanese edition. It's published by Dah-Hsin of Taipei under licence with Japan's 3A Corporation. This series has plenty of kanji. From the very first chapter for beginners, it launches right into kanji, and continues heaping on kanji after kanji for a vast multitude of vocabulary (which wouldn't be a challenge for native Chinese speakers).

Of course, I wouldn't recommend such a textbook for non-Chinese beginners, but since your aim is to learn lots of vocabulary and kanji... this series is for you. Besides, the Chinese translations aren't intrusive, so you can pretend they don't exist and focus solely on the Japanese kanji (with the help of a good Japanese-English dictionary for translations).

Good luck! :)

P.S. These books probably aren't available in your local bookshop, since I presume you live in Europe :p

Try ordering them online here: http://www.books.com.tw/exep/prod/booksfile.php?item=0010143085

[Kyuusai]

I mentioned it before, but I'll mention it again since Syaoran brought it up.

If your intention is to learn ALL the kanji, I know of no better method than Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" series--especially the first book. It's awkward to learn both simple and complex terms next to each other, but learning the kanji from the primitives up can REALLY help if your mind is wired for it.

[Syaoran]

I'll look around for those books.

By the way, does anyone remember the title of that book where they have a small story or a tip to remember the kanji?
It's not only kanji that I focus on. First of all I want a broader vocabulary... but who says vocabulary also says kanji, otherwise I can't read a text either if it doesn't show furigana next to the kanji :3

And... is it me or other people as well... if you don't do some Japanese everyday, you start to forget after a week or so O.o
Very annoying... or my brain is just a bad one and needs replacement *lol... if only it was that easy*

[Mueti]

Random question out of curiosity:
How long did it take for the ones of you having started from square one to know Japanese well enough to...let's say read a book?

[Kyuusai]

Random question out of curiosity:
How long did it take for the ones of you having started from square one to know Japanese well enough to...let's say read a book?

It all depends on how your brain prefers to learn, and how much time and concentration you can put into it.

A children's book? I spread my kana study over a week or two, but if I'd pushed myself, I could have that plus use "The Quick and Dirty Guide to Japanese" and a dictionary to be able translate a very simple children's book in a day or two. But that's the simplest of the simple, much like the cliched "See spot run" book in the US (actually, the Japanese children's book I used had very similar text...).

To read something more complex? Some people with a lot of time and gumption have learned all the kanji, if not all their readings, in two weeks to a month, but they are the exceptions to the rule, and then grammar and proper usage is a whole different ball game. A few in immersion classes (or experienced language learners with a lot of time) can achieve (very basic) functional literacy in a month or few. Most take a couple of years. No two people can expect to learn at the same speed.

But don't lose heart if it seems like too long. When I was very young, somewhere in my mind I expected to have an epiphinal moment in my study of other languages when suddenly everything made sense, but it doesn't work that way. Learning another language is very much like adding new words to your native-language vocabulary, in that every step opens another door, and that you're opening doors your entire life.

Set small goals for yourself along the way, and you'll constantly amaze yourself with the new things you can understand, and your progress will help motivate you!

[kitto-chan]

I figure since this is japanese self study thread, might be worth a shot. Do you guys know or have anyone who has taken Japanese, found a study group, or a place where Japanese is used often?

What I mean is I'm taking a class, I'm not having a problem reading the hirugana, or understand it, I have a problem hearing the words. My teacher is a Pure japanese woman and she talks aburtly fast, so dechipering what she's saying is a chore for me since I kept asking her to repeat numerous times.

[raikage]

Is this a formal class, or a tutor?

It's good practice. When I was taking fourth-semester Japanese, I could understand most of what my teacher was saying, but not all. You learn to pick and choose key words so you have a general understanding of what's being said, and you learn to recognize common phrases so those can be instantly translated before they've even finished speaking.

[Kyuusai]

I figure since this is japanese self study thread, might be worth a shot. Do you guys know or have anyone who has taken Japanese, found a study group, or a place where Japanese is used often?

What I mean is I'm taking a class, I'm not having a problem reading the hirugana, or understand it, I have a problem hearing the words. My teacher is a Pure japanese woman and she talks aburtly fast, so dechipering what she's saying is a chore for me since I kept asking her to repeat numerous times.

http://japanesepod101.com :D

Japanese television and music can also help you improve your listening skills, since they tend to talk slower than regular speech.

[kitto-chan]

@raikage, formal class, second semster.
@kyusai, shows, and music are okay, But I need to really improve conversation listening. Book on tape tends to put me to sleep (literally).

[Kyuusai]

@raikage, formal class, second semster.
@kyusai, shows, and music are okay, But I need to really improve conversation listening. Book on tape tends to put me to sleep (literally).

You are turning the subtitles off, aren't you? :D

Seriously, though, if you're at the point where you can understand most of what you hear in slow speech, you might look at http://www.mylanguageexchange.com/ and find some folks to do voice chat sessions with.

[Ewok]

I mentioned it before, but I'll mention it again since Syaoran brought it up.

If your intention is to learn ALL the kanji, I know of no better method than Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" series--especially the first book. It's awkward to learn both simple and complex terms next to each other, but learning the kanji from the primitives up can REALLY help if your mind is wired for it.

Heisigs book is inefficient at helping you learn kanji. The ideas it presents in the foreword are not unique but it is all you need, just don't read the rest of the book ;)

[Lavabyle]

Well, out of around 12 posts, noone showed me a link to a good kana trainer. Yes, i know writing is good, and i do that when theres no computer lying around. I already know how to write them, so i was just going to use the trainer as a supplement =/

[Kyuusai]

Heisigs book is inefficient at helping you learn kanji. The ideas it presents in the foreword are not unique but it is all you need, just don't read the rest of the book ;)

Actually, his "create a story" method I find to be utterly useless in most cases, and his suggested stories to be useless in nearly all cases. :D

The order in which they're presented, on the other hand, is more conducive to learning them than using only the traditional method of learning the most common kanji first. By learning primitives and then building kanji with them, it not only helps memory by use of the method of memorizing inter-related things, reducing the core number of elements that must be memorized in each session, and provides useful etymological information that can help as a memorization tool.

That's really only good, though, if you're willing to follow his book all the way through (I am).

At some point, I will likely cross-reference his order with common-use statistics to create a learning order more palatable for the average student. Not tonight, though. :heh:

[Kyuusai]

Well, out of around 12 posts, noone showed me a link to a good kana trainer. Yes, i know writing is good, and i do that when theres no computer lying around. I already know how to write them, so i was just going to use the trainer as a supplement =/

I don't use Windows these days, so I don't have experience with any programs to help you, but a quick search on google.com turned up the following...

http://jls.phreadom.net/
http://www.dreambreed.com/

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Just for reference to aspiring Japanese learners, I'm in my third year of Japanese study and we never learned the classification terms (izenkei, renyoukei, etc.) so don't get too hung up over it. Do pay attention to what the rules are, however, as those are the very basics of Japanese grammar. Once you have those down, you start building on top of them.

For reference, the program here at the University of Southern California uses なかま１ for Japanese 1 and 2, and なかま２ for Japanese 3 and 4. For "Advanced Japanese 1" we use "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" from the Japan Times. Friends at other schools seem to use げんき or ようこそ！for their textbooks.

Huh, なかま２ is what we're using, but I'm a senior. In high school. We're a college prep school, so our classes are easily on the college level. The APs especially. I'm fairly certain that I'm going to fail this year.... that's gonna suck.

It's funny, because our Japanese III class only has 5 people in it. And all of them are asian. :heh:

Back on topic, I find it useful, but not all of the idioms and words can be found in the textbook's glossary. If you want to look up a word, you gotta go find a dictionary because the book is meant for upper-tier students, I suppose.

[Ledgem]

My classes (university) used なかま for the first four semesters: Nakama 1 for the first two, and Nakama 2 for the second two. After that, the classes are called "Advanced Japanese" and we use An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese from the Japan Times. Advanced Japanese 1 and 2 use this book. The next level up is called something weird, like "Japanese in Business Communication" or something to that extent. The book used is Aozora Intermediate-Advanced Japanese Communication, printed by the University of Hawaii (which has an exceptional Japanese program, I hear). It comes with three CDs (finally, someone who has moved beyond tapes!)

It may be redundant, but since I'm mentioning book series, the other two beginner-level books that I've heard of, aside from なかま (Nakama) are げんき (Genki) and ようこそ！ (Youkoso!). I think it's important to follow through with many of the exercises - speaking is important, but writing doesn't hurt you, either. Write out as much as you can, and if possible, get a speaking buddy.

[Syaoran]

Anyone using A course in Modern Japanese edited by the Japanese Language Education Group of Nagoya University ?
At university they stick with that book. I used Genki when I did some selfstudying.
Between those two books there's a big difference in the level of grammar. The Nagoya one has more difficult grammer in the first volume than Genki has.

[Scifience]

I've been studying Japanese for four years now.

I've been taking an actual private lesson with a native speaker teacher (who has since become a friend also) for the whole time. I took the JLPT 3 this December, and I'm sure I passed (the kanji portion was, of course, the most difficult).

I can now read about 500 kanji, all the hiragana and katakana, and can speak in polite, humble, and standard forms fairly well. I probably know about 10000 words. I can't pick up a book or newspaper and read it yet (at least not without looking up every other character in my kanji dictionary), but I am able to read signs, train timetables, and other practical stuff as well as many manga without much difficulty. I've just started taking an extra three hours of private lessons each week, and I hope to take (and pass) JLPT 2 this year.

At this point, the most difficult things for me are the kanji and keeping a conversation flowing at a normal pace. I can understand what people say to me, but I have to think for a few seconds about what to say in response, and it doesn't always flow as naturally as I'd like it to.

In my experience, there is no substitute for actually talking to people in Japanese and being exposed to the language on a daily basis. It is very easy to forget kanji and vocabulary if you aren't using and hearing it constantly. Unfortunately, the best way to do this is to actually be in Japan or otherwise surrounded by Japanese people, and this isn't practical for a lot of people.

Just using a textbook, though, isn't going to make you a fluent speaker. Nobody follows those nice little scripts for ordering food, meeting someone, mailing a package, etc. that they put in the beginner textbooks. If all you ever do is memorize these things and practice saying them to yourself, you won't be at all prepared to actually respond when holding a real conversation with someone.

[kitto-chan]

I've been studying Japanese for four years now.
Just using a textbook, though, isn't going to make you a fluent speaker. Nobody follows those nice little scripts for ordering food, meeting someone, mailing a package, etc. that they put in the beginner textbooks. If all you ever do is memorize these things and practice saying them to yourself, you won't be at all prepared to actually respond when holding a real conversation with someone.

Exactly what i mean. Henceforth why i pointed out, how the hell do you converse in japanese without any japanese group(s) around?

[Cryonosis]

Checking a local university for a conversational parter program is the best bet. Aside from that, the internet offers some great opportunities with using nothing more than teamspeak to verbally chat with friends from forums or video games.

[Ewok]

I've just started taking an extra three hours of private lessons each week, and I hope to take (and pass) JLPT 2 this year.

JLPT 3 -> 2 is a huge jump, get your hands on several past exams and use em 3months and a month before the exam so you know where to focus. The killer is of course kanji, but in real life the key is to know your verbs. Conjugation is easy once you have a grasp on it, having enough words to be able to converse is where the fun comes in. :eyespin:

[WanderingKnight]

JLPT 3 -> 2 is a huge jump, get your hands on several past exams and use em 3months and a month before the exam so you know where to focus.

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, JLPT 2 requires you to know 1000 kanji, while JLPT 3 requires only 300.

I've been learning for a year now, but if you add all the previous contact I had via anime, this past year hasn't taught me anything new, other than new vocabulary, which is a welcome addition. I'm able now to translate raw manga (in fact, I'm doing it right now), and though I still lack a bit of kanji, after seeing the JLPT 3 a friend of mine took some years ago, I know I have enough grammatical knowledge to aim for it at the end of this year. It'd be a big jump, though, considering most people in my class will be taking the level 4 exam. In fact, I talked to my teacher about it and she agreed, since she saw pretty clearly during class that I didn't have much difficulty with what she taught so far.

Anyways, I've always had a knack for learning languages. In fact, I learned English entirely on myself between ages 8-12, based merely on pure contact (and no, I've never lived in an English-speaking country).

[Scifience]

JLPT 3 -> 2 is a huge jump, get your hands on several past exams and use em 3months and a month before the exam so you know where to focus. The killer is of course kanji, but in real life the key is to know your verbs. Conjugation is easy once you have a grasp on it, having enough words to be able to converse is where the fun comes in. :eyespin:

Well, I actually found ３級 to be fairly easy for the most part, and I can *read* about 500 kanji, so my teacher/friend and I think I have a good shot at it at any rate. I also have covered a majority of the grammatical structure (尊敬語, etc.) for ２級. It's always those damned kanji that are the problem, though. :)

[Ewok]

Well, I actually found ３級 to be fairly easy for the most part, and I can *read* about 500 kanji, so my teacher/friend and I think I have a good shot at it at any rate. I also have covered a majority of the grammatical structure (尊敬語, etc.) for ２級. It's always those damned kanji that are the problem, though. :)

Probably the nastiest part of the kanji section is the "pick which compound is correct" and your brain stops...

(I'll dig up my practice exam and post examples, image 4 compounds with kanji that are almost exactly the same, or 4 kanji that have the same reading but completely different meanings - real brain strain material :twitch: )

[Doraneko]

JLPT 3 -> 2 is a huge jump, get your hands on several past exams and use em 3months and a month before the exam so you know where to focus. The killer is of course kanji, but in real life the key is to know your verbs. Conjugation is easy once you have a grasp on it, having enough words to be able to converse is where the fun comes in. :eyespin:

It is not as difficult as it seems to be. I started to learn the language in June 05 and took the level 4 exam in December of the same year. Then I started to prepare for level 2 during the last summer vacation by self-studying and sat for it in December. I found the paper very easy, and the passages were much simpler in structure than those editorials or interviews in the anime magazines.

Actually scoring 240 points out of 400 is already enough get a pass. An average learner with level 3 knowledge may not know every single word and can answer every single question to score over 380, but getting 240 should be well within their capability, as long as they have been maintaining a daily exposure to the language through anime, manga or anything in Japanese.

Forcing yourself to prepare an exam is a really helpful way in broadening your vocabulary and grammar knowledge in a short time, as you will end up doing tonnes of exercises again and again until you have totally get used of recognizing the words, and can read a long passage in less than a minute (reading speed is quite crucial for JLPT2). The listening part can be practised by watching at least 1 hour of Japanese programme every day (which should be easy thanks to the internet :P).

Conversation is a difficult part for self-study though. I can chat with online Japanese friends with no problem at all, but I seriously need a buddy to practise face-to-face conversations.

[Ewok]

It is not as difficult as it seems to be.

I've done the test too, so I know how hard it is ;) Its not what I would call "easy", and it brings up the question of if being able to pass an exam shows actual ability in Japanese, or just ability to pass the test.

(Btw, got your score yet? :D )

[Doraneko]

I've done the test too, so I know how hard it is ;) Its not what I would call "easy", and it brings up the question of if being able to pass an exam shows actual ability in Japanese, or just ability to pass the test.

(Btw, got your score yet? :D )

Actually I think the JLPT can only test one's reading skills. The listening tasks are not realistic enough, while there is absolutely nothing to test writing and speaking. But well, if the employers think that a JLPT level 1/2 cert is nice enough (since they probably can't interview you in Japanese), getting one is a must IMO.

The grammar, vocabulary and readings in 06 were not that different from the previous ones. Since I did countless numbers of exercises on those, they were pretty easy to me. The listening part was a bit painful though since the audio system in the exam centre was horrible :heh: . But well, if I have maintained my general performance on other sections, I can dump the listening paper and still easily get a pass :). Anyway the results are scheduled to be released in March.

[Syaoran]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5066/screenshotkanjipadgs6.th.png (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotkanjipadgs6.png)
Anyone knows how this kanji is read? I tried to look it up, but I guess my mousewriting is bad ...

[Kyuusai]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5066/screenshotkanjipadgs6.th.png (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotkanjipadgs6.png)
Anyone knows how this kanji is read? I tried to look it up, but I guess my mousewriting is bad ...

I'm... not sure what that's supposed to be.

You might be interested in http://www.jisho.org/ and its kanji lookup by radicals interface.

[Syaoran]

Found one on my prints... it's more clear than the handwritten one I based that kanjipad thing on.
It's the kanji with the arrow, on top of the page.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4017/pic0005yt2.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0005yt2.jpg)

Cool website by the way :D
But I didn't find it in 弋 's kanji list.

[Kyuusai]

Found one on my prints... it's more clear than the handwritten one I based that kanjipad thing on.
It's the kanji with the arrow, on top of the page.
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4017/pic0005yt2.th.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0005yt2.jpg)

Cool website by the way :D
But I didn't find it in ? 's kanji list.

The radical is actually 戈, which makes sense, but trying to find it with 弋 oddly doesn't return 成 in the results.

Welcome to the fun world of kanji radical classification! If you think this is fun, try doing what my next project is: Writing sorting scripts for the kanji. Scary stuff. :uhoh:

Linking doesn't work due to some technical details with kanji in the URL versus posting kanji on the board. Just look it up with the 戈 and you should find 成.

[Syaoran]

Found it :)
Thanks for your help Kyuusai!

The algorithm you're developing sounds very interesting. Any chance you're working on it with Linux/Unix ? Looks like Windows could make a mess out of it with its strange way to handle foreign code pages ^^'

[Kyuusai]

Found it :)
Thanks for your help Kyuusai!

The algorithm you're developing sounds very interesting. Any chance you're working on it with Linux/Unix ? Looks like Windows could make a mess out of it with its strange way to handle foreign code pages ^^'

Glad I could help. :)

Incidentally, I'll be working Linux and OS X depending on which computer I'm sitting at, but I'm not doing anything at a level where the OS will matter. What I'm doing is really just some sorting, which just requires a decent interpreter. While I forsee it being very useful, it's very simple, and in the "why didn't some one already do this?" category.

All the real work was already done by the IT department at Monash University, which is responsible for KANJIDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/kanjidic.html) and EDICT (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/j_edict.html), which I'll be taking raw information from (they are also the source for the data behind jisho.org).

[teachopvutru]

Wah, how many people in here take Japanese class? I'm currently in high school and my county doesn't have Japanese course, despite how much I wish it I can't take one.

Since I'm assuming Kanji and Hiragana are symbol letters like Chinese and Romaji and Katakana are like English alphabetic letters (cuz the first post didn't make any mention about what Hiragana and Katakana suppose to look like). What are the differences between Kanji x Hiragana and Romaji x Katakana?

And how 'ha' in Katakana can turn to 'wa' in Romaji? xD

[Mueti]

I don't take any class, nothing like that is offered at my school either. I'm currently learning it by myself with the help of various books and internet-sites. Unlike others here, I'm still just at the beginning (I know most grammar but only about 150 of the Kanji).

To answer your questions:
Kanji are the symbol letters, derived from Chinese; for Japanese you need to know 1945 of them.
Hiragana and Katakana are both alphabetic and contain the same 46 letters (apart from the extended Katakana used for non-Japanese sounds). Kanji is used for verbs, nouns and adjectives, Hiragana for the conjugations, particles and such. With Katakana you write words which derive from other Languages.
Romaji is basically writing Japanese with our alphabet.

As for は: when used as a particle it is pronounced "wa".

[Kyuusai]

Wah, how many people in here take Japanese class? I'm currently in high school and my county doesn't have Japanese course, despite how much I wish it I can't take one.

Since I'm assuming Kanji and Hiragana are symbol letters like Chinese and Romaji and Katakana are like English alphabetic letters (cuz the first post didn't make any mention about what Hiragana and Katakana suppose to look like). What are the differences between Kanji x Hiragana and Romaji x Katakana?

And how 'ha' in Katakana can turn to 'wa' in Romaji? xD

For some classes/study tools, you might check out
http://japanesepod101.com
and
http://yesjapan.com

[raikage]

And how 'ha' in Katakana can turn to 'wa' in Romaji? xD

The answer is Just because. Don't try to rationalize it. :p

No, seriously. Not everything will make sense or have well thought-out reasoning behind it.

[Vexx]

The syllables used as 'particles' (fancy term for 'the preceding phrase is THIS part of the sentence') are just traditionally as they are:
(subject) wa is written as (subject) ha
(object) o is written using that OTHER symbol for "o"

Fortunately, there aren't very many particles and once you 'grok' their purpose, it becomes pretty clear when to use what particle (though I have a whole book just on particles, the hundreds of examples distill to some pretty clear patterns).

Raikage nails it though... when learning ANY language, the first thing you must do is stop asking WHY -- it just is. If you want to use general patterns to help remember while acknowledging exceptions, that is fine. But languages are organic, meaning they just morph to suit the needs and happily steal from other languages without remorse.

[FatPianoBoy]

Remember that へ becomes 'e' when used as a particle, too.

The reason that は, を, and へ have funky readings is simply because, at one time, the w's, h's, and lone vowels were the same line of kana. This is just left over from that.

Also, us native English speakers should not throw stones at other languages' irregularities when our language is one of the largest glass houses in the world ;)

[WanderingKnight]

Don't forget で　and に particles. Those stay with the same pronunciation (de and ni, respectively), but both may have similar meanings at first look, and they are quite difficult to differentiate at the beginning (or at least they were for me).

Also, us native English speakers should not throw stones at other languages' irregularities when our language is one of the largest glass houses in the world

For the record, Japanese is one of the most regular languages of the world (or at least it's more regular than most latin and saxon-based languages).

[FatPianoBoy]

For the record, Japanese is one of the most regular languages of the world (or at least it's more regular than most latin and saxon-based languages).

Believe me, I know. The only irregularities (that I know of) are は、へ、を、する、and 来る. Everything else pretty much follows the rules. In fact, right now the biggest headache for me is remembering counting words :eyespin:

[Maritime]

Check this site out, http://lrnj.com/ , it's a free RPG that teaches you Japanese. I played it for a while and it's pretty cool.
Thanks for posting that link, I've been playing this at work recently and it's been very useful.

For some classes/study tools, you might check out
http://japanesepod101.com
I've burned a number of their lessons to a rewritable CD and listen to them in the car. So far I've found them to be very easy to digest and because they break everything down into syllables and then explain each and every part of the sentence I've found it reasonably easy to learn. I'd much rather learn from a real person but seeing as I don't know any Japanese speakers this is probably the next best thing.

[Vexx]

Aye, on the regularity... I'm finding in some respects - conversational japanese is one of the easiest languages to learn simply because it is rather uncluttered (unlike, say, the Romance/Latin languages which tend to be hodgepodges of cases, noun sex, random pluralization, word pillaging and such). Over the years, I've invested time in German, Russian, Spanish (and homebase language English) and have had the best time with Japanese ... though yes, those counters kick my butt.

*WRITING* and *READING* japanese is the most challenging though I'm just now starting to 'grok' the feel of the entry level kanji and how they relate. When reading a manga with much kanji in it, I'm usually surrounded by dictionaries. The phonetic kana were pretty straight forward though I routinely have to relearn the katakana (damn klingon letters just won't stick in my neurons :) ).

[Doraneko]

I just feel like the opposite way :heh: . I have been learning the language for about 1.5 years, mostly by self-learning in the library. Throw me a Yomiuri or Asahi Shimbun and I can immeditaly translate any article on-the-fly. But I still have difficulty speaking properly when I get face-to-face with a Japanese. :(

(For the record, I have been learning English as my second language for over 18 years, and still have difficulty in reading fictions like Harry Potter. Not to mention that I still cannot write a grammatically correct essay.)

Actually I think the common view that speaking Japanese is much easier than reading it, is due to the fact that most Japanese classes focus on conversations while start off a bit slow in vocabulary and grammar. Try the self-learning way and you can easily get an opposite result. It is not like speaking it is inherently easier than reading it.

Btw for anyone that don't feel like spending a fortune and a life-time to learn the language, try the library. It is inexpensive while extremely quick and effective. You won't learn much conversation skills, but it is more than enough to satisfy your anime and manga needs, as well as being capable to write decent Japanese to be able to make some nice Japanese pen-friends.

[Ewok]

Believe me, I know. The only irregularities (that I know of) are は、へ、を、する、and 来る. Everything else pretty much follows the rules. In fact, right now the biggest headache for me is remembering counting words :eyespin:

There are lots of irregularities, you just take them for granted ;) Most of the nasty ones are words that are irregular compounds, such as 明日, which you would expect to read as "meibi" but comes out as "ashita". Fun abounds...

[Doraneko]

Most of the nasty ones are words that are irregular compounds, such as 明日, which you would expect to read as "meibi" but comes out as "ashita". Fun abounds...

As well as "asu" :P. "Myounichi" is also a valid pronounication though it is pretty rare in modern days. Quite a headache in deciding which to say when you actually come across the word. :P

[WanderingKnight]

There are lots of irregularities, you just take them for granted Most of the nasty ones are words that are irregular compounds, such as 明日, which you would expect to read as "meibi" but comes out as "ashita". Fun abounds...

Those are kanji-reading related irregularities, but they're not related directly to grammatical irregularities (which was what I was talking about in my post). Add that to the rather simple construction of Japanese sentences, and it might as well be one of the easiest languages to learn--if you don't take into account the reading, writing, and huge vocabulary, that is.

[FatPianoBoy]

There are lots of irregularities, you just take them for granted ;) Most of the ones are words that are irregular compounds, such as 明日, which you would expect to read as "meibi" but comes out as "ashita". Fun abounds...

Oh, right; I forgot about those entirely :heh:
二人 is another fun one. "Nibito"? "Ninin"? "Fujin"? Nope: "Futari." Also 大人: "Daibito"? "Otona" ;)
Fortunately, these are also in short supply and are often fairly common words, so they're easy to remember.


I agree with Doraneko: it depends on whatever you're exposed to more. I spend more time reading, and hence read much better than I can speak. Someone who converses but rarely reads would be the opposite.

[teachopvutru]

I don't take any class, nothing like that is offered at my school either. I'm currently learning it by myself with the help of various books and internet-sites. Unlike others here, I'm still just at the beginning (I know most grammar but only about 150 of the Kanji).

To answer your questions:
Kanji are the symbol letters, derived from Chinese; for Japanese you need to know 1945 of them.
Hiragana and Katakana are both alphabetic and contain the same 46 letters (apart from the extended Katakana used for non-Japanese sounds). Kanji is used for verbs, nouns and adjectives, Hiragana for the conjugations, particles and such. With Katakana you write words which derive from other Languages.
Romaji is basically writing Japanese with our alphabet.

As for は: when used as a particle it is pronounced "wa".


I thought Kanji would be endless like Chinese. And about the "wa" I don't understand how it could be written in both ways. Didn't realize the key was to get familiar with it XD ...

Still don't understand what Hiragana and Katakana suppose to be. But basically they are suppose to be alphabets for the Japanese language? If it's so, why there are two alphabets? o.o

I'm impressed that you are self-learning. I remember learning Chinese in the past for three whole years, and with classes, too... I knew a bit of Chinese but probably because I scrambled all the informations right before tests and never actually studied, not so long after I quit learning I forgot all of them ._. ... Just something to note that it's remarkable you learn a language by yourself. (Learning Latin right now but I may forget it soon after the semester is over :heh: *hope not*)

For one thing, it probably will make the job of learning Kanji easier for me since I'm a bit familiar with all those dash and slashes. I would probably get a headache seeing those symbolic letters nonetheless

Which one should I start first with though?


Oh, right; I forgot about those entirely :heh:
二人 is another fun one. "Nibito"? "Ninin"? "Fujin"? Nope: "Futari." Also 大人: "Daibito"? "Otona" ;)
Fortunately, these are also in short supply and are often fairly common words, so they're easy to remember.



Wah, now it explains a lot how Yakitate!! Japan has so much puns in it. :heh:

[Jewelray]

Still don't understand what Hiragana and Katakana suppose to be. But basically they are suppose to be alphabets for the Japanese language? If it's so, why there are two alphabets? o.o


It's kind of like how in English there is print and cursive... but not really. Hiragana and Katakana have different uses. Hiragana is used to to indicate tense, particles, and Japanese words without kanji, while Katakana is mainly for loan words, onomatopoeia, and for emphasizing words (kind of like italics.)

Maybe the wikipedia article can explain it better:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_alphabet

[poptart]

if i could add on...

katakana is used almost soley for foregin words. unlike kanji which has a meaning along with the sound/pronunciation, katakana is soley the sound for symbol. my teacher told me that once you see katakana you pretty much know that you can just sound out what the word is.

so names and foregin loan words will be the word sounded out in katakana

james= ジェームス
jennifer= ジェニファー
hot dog = ホットドッグ
computer= コンピュータ
coffee= コーヒー

each syllable is represented by a katakana to sound out the word.

though this doesn't mean that words that have a hiragana and kanji spelling will not also be represented in katakana form. sometimes it will be used to express that the word is a sound.

[teachopvutru]

Ah, I think I understand better now.

So, what would be good one to start with? Also, what do you think is hardest about Japanese..? X_x .... Just wondering :p

[FatPianoBoy]

You'll get much more use out of Hiragana, so learn it first. Heck, I've been reading Japanese (to varying degrees of success) for four years now and I still draw a blank occasionally when I need to write Katakana; you just don't use it much.

The things that give me the most trouble from least to greatest:

Sentence order (gets hairy on long and complex sentences)
Kanji
Counting words (seriously, why is the kanji for 'book' the counter for long, slender objects? Books are neither long nor slender)

Pronunciation is actually not bad (depending on your native language). The only thing I had much trouble with at all were the 'r's.

[WanderingKnight]

Sentence order (gets hairy on long and complex sentences)

I wouldn't consider it much of a problem, since the order is quite established and regular all around, you just need to get used to the idea that you can't attempt to understand a phrase until it's been spoken till the end (that is because the verb goes always at the end).

And I'd add vocabulary to the list of problems. For most simple and fairly complex concepts, Japanese have most of times two or three ways of expressing them, which adds heaps of words to their dictionary. Add that to the increasing addition of English-based words, which take the place of former Japanese-based words, but not replacing their use completely, and you've got a fair load of words to learn there.

So, what would be good one to start with?

Hiragana, definitely. About 98% of the kana you'll read will be in Hiragana. Although you have to pick up Katakana anyways, since it seems like people are using it more, especially in manga, where you'll find lots of "capitalization" of Japanese words by use of Katakana.