Learning Japanese [Archive] - Page 3

Spectacular_Insanity

2007-02-25, 02:30

Ah, I think I understand better now.

So, what would be good one to start with? Also, what do you think is hardest about Japanese..? X_x .... Just wondering :p

Are you referring to which book to start with? I'd suggest Genki. It's really good for begginers. I know I got a lot out of it. It can't explain nuances very well (Nakama does that well, IMHO), but it's good for the basics and getting a feel for the language.

Kanji is easily the most difficult part of the language. The basic structure and grammar is actually a bit easier than some languages, and except for the extensive conjugation for various types of words (i-adjectives, na-adjectives , nouns, and verbs), it's all pretty straightforward.

Jewelray

2007-02-25, 02:37

Counting words (seriously, why is the kanji for 'book' the counter for long, slender objects? Books are neither long nor slender)

After two years I still don't know the days of the month...

Spectacular_Insanity

2007-02-25, 02:57

After two years I still don't know the days of the month...

Hmmmmm.... er.... mikka, yokka..... kokonoka..... tou? I guess even after 3 years, I can't remember either! :heh:

And another thing I find difficult about japanese is the lack of spaces between words if you're reading real Japanese. So, if you aren't familiar with a word, you're pretty much screwed because it could be anything...

WanderingKnight

2007-02-25, 06:53

And another thing I find difficult about japanese is the lack of spaces between words if you're reading real Japanese. So, if you aren't familiar with a word, you're pretty much screwed because it could be anything...

That's a problem learning kanji helps to solve, since when reading something with kanji + kana vs something with kana alone, the kanji help the sentences feel more organized and less chaotic. Even if you don't understand the kanji, you can at least single out which is the word you don't understand (instead of getting it mixed up with the others like it happens to me when I read kana-only phrases).

Xess

2007-02-26, 02:03

Yeah, reading kana alone with no spaces is practically impossible. It's akin to writing this very sentence with no spaces. And having no kanji is like having phonetic spelling in English. The only way you can tell the difference between "Redbook", "red book" and "read book" in English is through stress. Since there isn't any stress in spelling, variations in spelling goes a long way. J

ust like English, Japanese has an incredible amount of homonyms. But they have a high pitch and low pitch sound to differentiate similar sounding words. That's also absent in the writing system, so the kanji definitely goes a long way to remove ambiguity. And these reasons are probably major reasons why English and Japanese writing have remained the way they were for quite a long time.

Quarkboy

2007-02-26, 06:16

FatPianoBoy

2007-02-26, 07:41

WanderingKnight

2007-02-26, 07:50

I don't really buy the "it'd be hard to differentiate words without kanji" argument.

Take Hebrew, for example. Written hebrew doesn't even write any VOWELS. And yet that's the norm for that language. People don't seem to have any trouble reading.

Plus, there's been a hiragana-only newspaper in japan since the education reforms back in the late meiji era. I think it's more a function of societal ridgidity than of functionality that written Japanese has remained as it has. Language reform is slowly, VERY slowly taking place.

You can't compare an outsider learning a language with a native, who has heard that language since the day he or she was born. Unless you know every single word that's being said in a kana-only phrase, chances are that you'll get a tougher time reading it. Native Japanese don't have any trouble at all because they've heard those words and sentence structures all their life, and can single out words pretty easily. And I agree, it's not impossible, I own a couple of children's book that are written only in kana, but trying to single out a word I don't understand when there are more than one in a sentence can be very difficult.

Besides, that sort of comparisons between languages is pointless--languages are pretty much unique all over the world, even more when comparing two languages with completely different bases.

Mueti

2007-02-26, 14:23

I don't really buy the "it'd be hard to differentiate words without kanji" argument. (...)

Well, of course the language could be structured in a different way.
The thing is just...it's not. I don't see the use of contemplating about a different writing system; if you want to learn the language then bear with it (and if you don't it doesn't matter either way), it's not like anything's going to change anytime soon.

raikage

2007-02-26, 19:07

Hmmmmm.... er.... mikka, yokka..... kokonoka..... tou? I guess even after 3 years, I can't remember either! :heh:

And another thing I find difficult about japanese is the lack of spaces between words if you're reading real Japanese. So, if you aren't familiar with a word, you're pretty much screwed because it could be anything...

You're attempting to count to ten, not speak the days of the week.

- Getsuyobi
- Kayobi
- Suiyobi
- ...uh..mokuyobi?
- Kinyobi
- Doyobi
- Nichiyobi

Oh, and to count to ten:

Hitotsu
Futatsu
Mittsu
Yottsu
Itsutsu
Muttsu
Nanatsu
Yattsu
Kokonotsu
Too

:cool:

I don't really buy the "it'd be hard to differentiate words without kanji" argument.

But once you know the kanji, it seems much easier to read.

Ewok

2007-02-26, 21:25

Allot of whats being talked about on this page and the last are related only to basic Japanese, at a more native level many of the things you talk about either make sense, or don't matter. For example:

Sentence structure - this is not fixed, in the same was as English there are many ways to structure a sentence and still keep it grammatically correct and logical. Its only at the basic level where you use a fixed pattern that it seems like its always the same.

Simplicity and irregularities - I wouldn't say Japanese is simple or easy - it has allot more logic and sense behind many aspects of its grammar and vocabulary structure, but if you spend some time studying the language you take for granted you'll learn its the same here ;) Many irregularities exist, you just haven't been exposed to them yet.

Counting - its a pain, just learn it all :heh:

Using Japanese is no different to using English - you need to have an understanding of grammar and a pool of words you can use to be able to receive and convey information and ideas. If you don't know a word or concept, use what you do know to explain it. If you hear something you don't know, as for an explanation.

WanderingKnight

2007-02-26, 22:08

You're attempting to count to ten, not speak the days of the week.

No, actually, if you want to count the days of the month like April 1st, 2nd, 3rd, you actually have to use the counter for days which is pretty similar to the generic counter (一つ、二つ、三つ...) but replace the つ　with っか. Of course, the counter has exceptions of its own.

Xess

2007-02-27, 00:30

The ones in hiragana only tend to have spaces though. But to me, hiragana only, with no spaces is akin to writing in English with no spaces, phonetic spelling and no caps. I'm sure if you had learnt to read without spaces and phonetically your whole life, you could, but I doubt it'd be very efficient. How could you tell the difference between, say "as in" or "a sin"? Or in Japanese, what's "niwatori"? If it was spoken, I'd know in a flash. If it's written, then who knows.

I'm sure the reason why the Japanese never changed to a pure hiragana system is because the old one works and it works better. And perhaps someone who knows Hebrew could tell us why the writing system works? I doubt it's the rigidity of society that's preventing change. Both the Chinese and Japanese writing system have gone through simplification. The Chinese script was dropped in favour of the Latin script for Vietnamese. And the Koreans too, don't use Hanja very much but favour Hangul more. The systems can change. But perhaps we have to look deeper into the reasons why they don't.

Ewok

2007-02-27, 00:50

Consider this - if you wrote wholly in hiragana but used katakana for grammar specific terms (or even just particles) you would end up with something that is highly readable without spaces - but still nowhere near as easy as reading with kanji. Until you've skim read a newspaper or had to filter through 200 emails to find one thing do you understand what kanji represent.

FatPianoBoy

2007-02-27, 00:55

Indeed. I'm beginning to get the impression that several here are going through that "why do I have to learn this?/why do they have to make it so hard?" phase of learning. The only advice I can offer is that the faster you just suck it up and accept it, the faster you'll progress. I assume you know very few or no kanji, as no one who knows a considerable amount (more than a hundred) would question the usefulness of it.

Vexx

2007-02-27, 04:33

You begin learning the moment you stop asking "why" ...... :)

The cool thing about kanji is they come with their own built-in cultural references, footnotes, and puns. The bad thing is that they come in the form of a blizzard of snowflakes.

If all you want to read is teen level manga (which is a fair accomplishment in itself), you only need to start learning the K-12 series of kanji by grade order (about 2000 by grade 12) and you can probably get by with a few hundred carefully chosen ones and look the others up.

Find a book that teaches kanji in the grade order that japanese students learn it - and flashcard level up. Most manga use a fraction of those and the better ones supply furigana support to help in the reading.

In the classes I've taken -- the biggest problem for the teacher is teaching the students how their OWN language works because they lack the basic linguistic knowledge (S V O vs S O V for example) - many have no idea what a direct or indirect object is. If you're learning via immersion, of course, who cares? But most learn by using their primary language as a jump-off point to compare to.

note: as far a s th e nospa ce iss ue g oes - onc eyou hav eabig enou ghvocab ulary anda sens eofthe word patt ern that pro blem vanishes.

WanderingKnight

2007-02-27, 06:31

In the classes I've taken -- the biggest problem for the teacher is teaching the students how their OWN language works because they lack the basic linguistic knowledge (S V O vs S O V for example) - many have no idea what a direct or indirect object is. If you're learning via immersion, of course, who cares? But most learn by using their primary language as a jump-off point to compare to.

In fact, the only reason why I think the grammatical structure of your own language should be taught at school is to learn other languages. I can't see other usefulness beyond that. But once you've got it, it becomes a lot easier to learn a language. Most of my Japanese-learning classmates have got no clue about grammatic, something I have learned due to the punishment of 4 years of Latin at high school (if you intend to learn Latin without any knowledge of grammatic, you'd better not start). And it shows.

teachopvutru

2007-02-27, 07:28

note: as far a s th e nospa ce iss ue g oes - onc eyou hav eabig enou ghvocab ulary anda sens eofthe word patt ern that pro blem vanishes.'

After reading that sentence, one should probably understand what u mean (I did too :heh: )

Xess

2007-02-28, 05:18

As far as the spaces thing go, or even if the spelling were to be jumbled up, most natives could probably read most sentences of the sort. However, it's proven that reading speed does slow down slightly, showing that good spelling is important.

This one is harder to read I think:
a sf arasthe nos paceis sue goes - on ceyouha veabigenou ghvocabul aryanda se nseoft hewo rdpat ternth atpr obl emvan ishes.

Nagato

2007-02-28, 05:32

:heh: reminds me about words with randomized order letters.

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe. ceehiro.
from this page (http://www.kotono8.com/2003/09/20randomize_letters.html)

Mueti

2007-02-28, 10:41

Kyuusai

2007-02-28, 12:28

There's something I've been wondering about: How important is the stroke order really? Everywhere it says to pay attention to it but would it actually make any difference if you wrote the kanji say, from bottom to top as long as you get the proportions right? Would it be recognisable and look weird? Or is the given order just supposed to be the best way of bringing the radicals into proper relation?
Its not that it's very hard, I do write them correctly, I was just curious as I didn't hear any reason for the stroke rules so far.

Using proper stroke order and direction makes handwriting tend look a particular way when it's less than perfect. Change the order or direction, and you'll give it another tendency.

In short, it might be legible, but people will be able to tell.

FatPianoBoy

2007-02-28, 14:35

Actually, sometimes the only way I can read a person's handwriting or decipher calligraphy is because of stroke order. Strokes have a tendency to trail, and they'll trail the wrong way if you don't use the proper stroke order. It's really hard to explain, but just trust me saying that it does matter.

Vexx

2007-02-28, 15:10

All I know is that whiteboard markers and ballpoint pens or computer fonts kind of destroy that careful brush lifting effect :)

My teacher gets a lot of entertainment value trying to figure out what kanji I've written with a ballpoint pen.

Nagato

2007-02-28, 15:11

Im not from any Kanji region country. I also can only write a few of kanji. But I can say, that we remember writing kanji by hand, and hand remember how to write it by the stroke order. Umm, we dont have time to use our head every time we write a single kanji, because we have to think what's kanji should be use for these words, to think about okurigana, etc.

Umm, maybe just like a ninja. They remember the jutsus with their body (and thats the only way), and use their head to prepare the plan.

I remember, my Japanese Teacher couldn't read my kanji and kana because I've wrote them in the wong stroke order. I think there isnt any significant difference between her kanji and mine. But, that is it.

WanderingKnight

2007-03-02, 20:09

Writing in a systematized order can also quicken a lot your writing speed, especially when writing characters you've never written before.

I just wrote write like 6 times in a single post. Wow.

teachopvutru

2007-03-05, 00:22

It would be 4 times though if you've taken out the last sentence :p

I'll assume you guys are talking about which slash or dash to write before which by "writing in a systematized order". Although I'm talking about Chinese here (and since Chinese and Kanji are the same anyway I guess it's not much different), my cousin wrote Chinese letters in mess up orders that it felt funny seeing him write it, and I must say that he wrote them pretty slow, too. Just saying I agree with WanderingKnight that writing in systematized order can quicken writing speed. (plus other advantages but if "writing in systematized order" wasn't what I thought, then this whole paragraph is pointless)

Well, I need some help here, and sorry to bug you guys again. Last time it was suggested I should learn hiragana first, but where should I begin? Just suggest me a book :heh:

Xess

2007-03-05, 05:54

I suppose writing Chinese characters in the proper stroke order is similar to spelling properly in English. Sure if you wrote in the wrong stroke order for Chinese/Japanese or if you spell incorrectly in English, people could probably still read it, but it's definitely weird and legibility will go down, thus lowering reading speed.

This just came to mind though, a little out of topic. I read somewhere in this thread I think, asking why '本' (hon) meant something other than book. Basically it means origin or root, but is used for book as well. Well, doesn't book also mean to reserve in English? So it isn't so odd, isn't it?

FatPianoBoy

2007-03-05, 14:58

This just came to mind though, a little out of topic. I read somewhere in this thread I think, asking why '本' (hon) meant something other than book. Basically it means origin or root, but is used for book as well. Well, doesn't book also mean to reserve in English? So it isn't so odd, isn't it?

Actually, I was asking (somewhat rhetorically) why 本 was the counter for long, slender objects even though a book is neither long nor slender. I've long since accepted that some things just don't make much sense in languages - I was just illustrating a point to someone else.

Jewelray

2007-03-05, 21:27

I suppose writing Chinese characters in the proper stroke order is similar to spelling properly in English. Sure if you wrote in the wrong stroke order for Chinese/Japanese or if you spell incorrectly in English, people could probably still read it, but it's definitely weird and legibility will go down, thus lowering reading speed.

I don't think it is that easy to tell if the stroke order was correct or not just by looking at the final product. The reason I think this is because if it was that apparent, my Japanese teacher would fail me on every kanji quiz since I almost never get the stroke order right. :heh:

FatPianoBoy

2007-03-05, 23:34

I don't think it is that easy to tell if the stroke order was correct or not just by looking at the final product. The reason I think this is because if it was that apparent, my Japanese teacher would fail me on every kanji quiz since I almost never get the stroke order right. :heh:

If you write it slowly and carefully enough, you can make the strokes in any order you want and it'll still look fine. The problem arises when you're not worried about making it look perfect and just need to get it written, i.e. everyday writing like notetaking, memos, etc.

teachopvutru

2007-03-07, 01:43

FatPianoBoy

2007-03-07, 01:59

Also,wouldn't it make the job of memorizing the word harder if you don't write it in a specific order, whether you assign the order for yourself or someone has taught you? O.o (I'm not so sure but I think it's that way o.o)

Depends. If you're learning by strokes, like they do in Japanese schools, then yes. However, if you're learning by radicals, like most Westerners (including myself), then I don't think it makes much of a difference.

Xess

2007-03-07, 17:07

Many handwriting recognition programs for Chinese characters rely on stroke order to guess the character you're attempting to write. I suppose that's one of the benefits of knowing the correct stroke order.

WanderingKnight

2007-03-07, 18:36

Yeah, try getting a 12 or more stroke kanji recognized correctly by Microsoft's IME pad without writing it in the right order... It's given me headaches from time to time.

Lavabyle

2007-03-09, 19:53

Well, the whole point of stroke order is that it's easeir to remember characters that require combinations. Instead of learning a whole new 15 strokes, just combine 3 characters into one, since you already know their stroke order ^.^

Nagato

2007-03-13, 12:52

Found nice site here (http://www.isc.u-toyama.ac.jp/cgi-bin/quiz/quiz.cgi?mode=list_tests)
Hope can help learning Japanese.

hiragana and katakana, with their sounds (pronunciation) and stroke:
hiragana (http://www.isc.u-toyama.ac.jp/~raicho/self/quiz_hiragana.html)
katakana (http://www.isc.u-toyama.ac.jp/~raicho/self/quiz_katakana.html)
more sounds (http://www.saiga-jp.com/pronunciation_voice.html)
kanji with pronunciation (http://www.saiga-jp.com/kanji_dictionary.html)

Ewok

2007-03-13, 21:54

There's something I've been wondering about: How important is the stroke order really?

Its important, but ignorable, and in the end its you who loses out.

Kanji are made up of elements, correct stroke order helps create kanji that look good with correct proportion and balance, help you remember how to write them, are normally the most efficient and quickest way to write them, and stop you from looking like an idiot when you write ;)

Also when you get to writing freehand your writing will be neater and easier for other people to read. I can write Japanese fairly fast when I need to, and still keep enough shape to understand whats written by using correct stroke order.

teachopvutru

2007-03-18, 23:29

snowJT

2007-03-19, 15:51

you should check out JapanesePod101 for audio conversations

teachopvutru

2007-03-22, 03:55

No money to sign up for it XD

Nagato

2007-03-22, 04:52

But you can still get the free podcast from your iTunes ^_^

teachopvutru

2007-03-24, 07:04

How do you get the podcast? O.o ... I have iTunes but I never used it

Kyuusai

2007-03-24, 11:18

How do you get the podcast? O.o ... I have iTunes but I never used it

Click on the iTunes Store, and do a search for it. Despite it being in the "store", the podcast is free.

Or just go to http://japanesepod101.com

WanderingKnight

2007-03-24, 11:57

^ But you can only have a 7-day trial if you don't want to pay. Otherwise, you'll need to cough up the dough.

Kyuusai

2007-03-24, 14:23

^ But you can only have a 7-day trial if you don't want to pay. Otherwise, you'll need to cough up the dough.

That's only if you want the PDFs and other material. The audio (the most valuable part) is free.

If all else a person wants are the PDFs and access to the download center for downloading many lessons at once via bittorrent, the monthly fee is modest.

Syaoran

2007-03-24, 18:28

Just a little question... how do you say sleepyhead in Japanese?

And... do they know the formation of noun by composition like Dutch, German, French, English ... ? (don't know the right term English ^^' for "samenstellingen")

WanderingKnight

2007-03-24, 18:38

Just a little question... how do you say sleepyhead in Japanese?

ねぼけ　(neboke)

And... do they know the formation of noun by composition like Dutch, German, French, English ... ? (don't know the right term English ^^' for "samenstellingen")

Hmm, kind of, if you could consider kanji compounds as word compounds.

But, they do combine a couple of words to form a "new" word, the thing is, it's just a common combination and not really a new word. For example, verb compounds are extremely common and many have particular western meanings, but at the end of the day, it's just putting together two verbs (the first, main one, in te-kei and the auxiliar in normal form).

Syaoran

2007-03-24, 18:47

ねぼけ　(neboke)

Hmm, kind of, if you could consider kanji compounds as word compounds.

But, they do combine a couple of words to form a "new" word, the thing is, it's just a common combination and not really a new word. For example, verb compounds are extremely common and many have particular western meanings, but at the end of the day, it's just putting together two verbs (the first, main one, in te-kei and the auxiliar in normal form).

Thanks ^^
I wasn't really sure at all for ねぼけ...
In my dictionary I found half-asleep and it's verb 寝ぼける (to be half alseep). That's where I started wondering it was a combination of ねぼける and one of the on or kun reading for 頭 for example.
Didn't find anything ^^
This one is certainly easier than what I was looking for.

Nagato

2007-03-24, 22:08

Try http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/
or http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/

http://www.excite.co.jp/dictionary/:
眠たがりや，寝ぼう.

WanderingKnight

2007-03-24, 23:14

In my dictionary I found half-asleep and it's verb 寝ぼける (to be half alseep). That's where I started wondering it was a combination of ねぼける and one of the on or kun reading for 頭 for example.

You can say 寝ぼけ顔　(nebokegao), which would imply that the person referred to looks sleepy. It's essentially similar, but it's not really an insult. If you want a stronger version of ねぼけ, you can do the usual combination and add やろう to it, and it would be more appellative and rough.

寝ぼけ頭　doesn't appear in my dictionary, but IME transforms it in kanji as a single element, which makes me believe it's an accepted use.

Man, I just heard a bit of the japanesepod101, and man that guy is lame. And the girl, she confirms my theory that states there's nothing funnier than an untrained Japanese trying to speak English :heh:

Syaoran

2007-03-25, 06:32

Hehe ^^ Good to know.
Also, thanks for those links.

I'll keep my focus on polite speech for now :)

Kyuusai

2007-03-25, 14:41

Man, I just heard a bit of the japanesepod101, and man that guy is lame. And the girl, she confirms my theory that states there's nothing funnier than an untrained Japanese trying to speak English :heh:

True on both points. :)

It is an invaluable resource, though, especially for the self-taught at the beginner level.

FatPianoBoy

2007-03-29, 18:02

Does anyone know how to set up your computer to type in different Japanese fonts? I've been typing Japanese for a while, but I only have one font.

The Lord of Dark

2007-03-29, 19:08

thanks a lot .. 5 years ago i search about it in my country , but i didn't found any thing , i see it's a difficult and interesting language,

your faithful 4 ever

Ewok

2007-03-30, 00:08

Does anyone know how to set up your computer to type in different Japanese fonts? I've been typing Japanese for a while, but I only have one font.

Different fonts like Arial, Comic Sans, etc fonts?

Red Herring

2007-03-30, 06:24

Syaoran

2007-03-30, 07:12

I study Japanese at university and it's intensive... sometimes too fast... but you get to know in 1 year what you'd learn in 4 years of evening course.
4 hours of grammar
2 hours of kanji
3 hours of sakubun / reading comprehension
3 hours of aural comprehension

We use the textbook A course in modern Japanese from Nagoya University Press.

harudasakurada

2007-03-30, 16:34

I have to take a language in college in order to get my BA. 4 semesters...I'm thinking Japanese but can anyone tell me what University Japanese is like? I mean I'm thinking they probably move at too fast a pace in order to learn anything...its probably more like "just learn what you need to know to pass the test."

I'm taking Japanese 102 right now, and, yeah, it's gone pretty fast. In 101, you had to memorize hiragana and katakana in about a week or so (so learn them beforehand), and in 101 and 102 combined you learn a total of 150 kanji.
However, I still think the grammatical concepts are pretty easy to grasp, so I don't think we're rushing through anything. We're using Situation Functional Japanese and going through 6 lessons a semester.
Basically, if you study a lot outside of class, you shouldn't really be in a situation where you're just trying to cram enough to pass the test, although really all depends on how well you can pick up the language.

FatPianoBoy

2007-03-30, 23:36

Different fonts like Arial, Comic Sans, etc fonts?

Yes, that's right.

raikage

2007-03-31, 20:58

Crovax

2007-04-02, 15:05

[...]

I don't think it's possible, really, to learn a language "for the test" -- that is, to memorize without understanding it.

EDIT: Maybe words, but likely not grammar structure or the basic kanji.

I so not study Japanese in any formal course or w/e, but it doesn't seem that farfetched to me. Language courses tend to be cumulative, so one would be likely to cram 'newly learned vocab and kanji' for any specific test. You are of course right that if you did not Master all the previous subject material properly (e.g. by only cramming before tests and never properly giving new material the time to sink in) cramming would quickly become impossible as the matter encompassed by accumulation rapidly grows.

On another note: I have heard from a friend in university who takes Japanese that he feels the different levels of politeness are not properly taught. That is, that the student is not properly familiarized with actually using them in conversation etc. Anyone sharing that sentiment?

WanderingKnight

2007-04-02, 15:17

On another note: I have heard from a friend in university who takes Japanese that he feels the different levels of politeness are not properly taught. That is, that the student is not properly familiarized with actually using them in conversation etc. Anyone sharing that sentiment?

I don't know about university classes because I take independent classes, but at the beginning you're normally stuck with the default polite level, that is, a lingo you'd use to talk to strangers that are located more or less at your same level. It's commonly set like that because of the gaijin-in-Japan kind-of oriented teaching system, which is supposed to give a foreign resident basic tools for handling everyday dialog with other people he or she is not intimate with. I guess the number of politeness levels the lessons cover depends on the depth of the lessons themselves, and the time you spend studying the language.

Crovax

2007-04-02, 15:59

Well, the thing is, this guy is taking like 3rd or 4th year Japanese now. And he still has this complaint.

How suitable is classroom teaching for learning conversational Japanese anyway? I have always been a fan of learning languages through simple exposure to them. It's how I picked up English, though admittedly, I was younger when I learned English than I am now. It is becoming apparent that without anyone to actively speak/practice Japanese with, progress is slow indeed.

Lack of interaction is the Achilles' heel for anyone trying to learn a language on his or her own. It is easy to land in situations where you are forced to communicate in English, especially when on vacation, however this is obviously not the case for Japanese. =)

WanderingKnight

2007-04-02, 16:06

How suitable is classroom teaching for learning conversational Japanese anyway? I have always been a fan of learning languages through simple exposure to them. It's how I picked up English, though admittedly, I was younger when I learned English than I am now. It is becoming apparent that without anyone to actively speak/practice Japanese with, progress is slow indeed.

Well, I've picked up English on my own and most of my Japanese comes from contact with the language, but the thing with Japanese is, that if your only contact is anime and manga, you're bound to have a very, very limited approach to it. That's because of the overly-informal level of speech characters use in it. I've actually been scolded by my sensei a few times for replying in phrases too short and simplistic, something I can't help to do as I'm already used to it because of anime :heh:

But of course, if you have zero contact (as some people of my Japanese class have), you're bound to stay very, very limited in your learning. The moral of the story is, that anime and manga help a lot in picking up a good part of the language, but don't go around figuring that it represents the totality of it. That's why classes are necessary for Japanese, if your source of contact with it is solely anime and manga.

raikage

2007-04-02, 23:45

On another note: I have heard from a friend in university who takes Japanese that he feels the different levels of politeness are not properly taught. That is, that the student is not properly familiarized with actually using them in conversation etc. Anyone sharing that sentiment?

My experiences are different from your friend's, in that I'm studying the language under a different curriculum on a different continent (or so I assume).

I only took the language for four semesters (roughly two years) but I feel like I learned a decent understanding of the hows and whens to use it.

Forgot a bit of the son'keigo (尊敬語) and the ken'jougo (謙譲語) but I don't think I'll run into very many situations where I, as a non-native speaker, would be expected to use it.

As a non-native, I think you'd only need to learn teineigo (丁寧語; ~masu/desu form) and kudaketago (砕けた語; informal ~u/da form). The usage is simple -- when in doubt, be polite. :)

Crovax

2007-04-03, 01:51

WanderingKnight: I have heard others mention that as well, hehe. Ppl watching too much anime addressing the teacher with 'omae', rofl.

raikage: He's actually an American, so judging by your location that assumption would be at least partially incorrect. =)

His complaint is that it's hard to learn what is appropriate where 'properly' in the classroom because the teacher will always insist on you being polite to him etc. Even if some practice routines try to force you to 'practice' it, it still ends up awkward since you don't generally use it. And there really isn't any properly involving, meaningful roleplay to try and fill this gap.

poptart

2007-04-03, 07:42

Well, I've picked up English on my own and most of my Japanese comes from contact with the language, but the thing with Japanese is, that if your only contact is anime and manga, you're bound to have a very, very limited approach to it. That's because of the overly-informal level of speech characters use in it. I've actually been scolded by my sensei a few times for replying in phrases too short and simplistic, something I can't help to do as I'm already used to it because of anime :heh:

But of course, if you have zero contact (as some people of my Japanese class have), you're bound to stay very, very limited in your learning. The moral of the story is, that anime and manga help a lot in picking up a good part of the language, but don't go around figuring that it represents the totality of it. That's why classes are necessary for Japanese, if your source of contact with it is solely anime and manga.

i think that anime and manga are really good tools to help learn japanese.

not to try and copy the way they speak, but soley for word and speech recognition.

most people don't live in a place where they can listen to native speakers or read in japanese. being able to hear native speakers (who speak much faster than most learning level japanese audio help) and read read japanse in non-textbook form, to me is a good learning tool.

but as you said should not be used as the basis for learning the language.

but if you combine what you learn at school with it and use it to enforce vocabulary, use context clues to figure out what is being said, sentence structre, voice tone and patterns, and work at trying to understand the normal native speakers pace then it should be ok.

just dont use it as a gauge for how all japanese people speak. that will get you some stares :)

Vexx

2007-04-03, 12:04

Whether classes are useful or not depends on:
1) How you best *learn* (not just memorize and forget).
2) How the class is taught (interactive, lecture, groupwork, immersive, etc).

I'm taking conversational japanese classes (lots of interactive and roleplay scenarios), that teacher is giving me sidework in kana, and combining that with some separate classes on kanji. For me, getting the information lodged in "permament" "accessible" memory is the toughest. I "know" a good deal - but it often isn't accessible when I'm put on the spot. That's the hump I'm trying to get over now.

And yes... unless you want to talk like an ill-mannered japanese teen (and probably feminine-speak as well) --- don't use what you learn in anime in real life :)

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-03, 13:46

And yes... unless you want to talk like an ill-mannered japanese teen (and probably feminine-speak as well) --- don't use what you learn in anime in real life :)

Heh... I remember a while ago that I utilized Haruhi's いいわね！ in a conversation without realizing how feminine and rude it is. Got me a couple of looks and a short explanation of why I shouldn't say that ever again, but gaijin can get away with just about anything once, so I don't let fear of weird speech prevent me from trying out what I pick up. Just make sure you're in the company of friends when you try it ;)

I seem to be able to get away with using slightly feminine speech patterns like の instead of か and feminine conjugation - possibly because I'm a bit feminine myself :heh:

WanderingKnight

2007-04-03, 22:16

Jewelray

2007-04-04, 14:06

Yeah, the bad part about learning from anime is that, since most characters are female, the female way of speaking gets stuck in your head. I had that problem at the beginning but it seems to be fading with time.

My problem is that I really want to use more masculine speech because it sounds so much cooler but I can't... bah.

At least if guys speak like girls they can blame it on the fact that their Japanese teacher was most likely female.

Nagato

2007-04-04, 17:32

Yeah, the bad part about learning from anime is that, since most characters are female, the female way of speaking gets stuck in your head. I had that problem at the beginning but it seems to be fading with time.
I didn't know it before. Im also watching bishojo anime, but I think I never tried to say わ、の or else. Well, maybe because I always (if possible) watch anime from the male main character view.

Usually the chinpira (punk, hooligan?) way of speaking is the one that can influence your Japanese when you learn it from anime or manga. But, from the anime or manga itself you can learn how to use the expression you find there. In spite of it's bad influences, manga or anime is a good alternative to learn Japanese. From my experience, manga or anime is the fastest way to improve your vocabulary when you reach level 3 (or higher) of JLPT.

About way of speaking, I think as foreign, stick on desu/masu form is the most bunan (safe) and normal yet quite polite alternative. Because, even Japanese, often mistake the usage of polite expression. I only use that when I really need to use it (means I must master it first).

lalala123

2007-04-07, 02:04

How long did it take for you to learn Japanese? what method did you use?

I would like to learn some Japanese so i don't have to read subtitles anymore. Subtitles are fine but you miss somethings when watching anime.

I would also like to read Japanese mangas.

thanks for the input

Icehawk

2007-04-07, 02:55

Haha, I've been watching anime heavily for over 10 years now and I still dont know much Japanese. Obviously I can understand a number of typical spoken phrases and words and such but thats about it. Its a very complicated language and I dont know how to read any of it and I wouldnt be much good in trying to speak it to anyone aside from very basic things.

2nd languages have never been a strong point for me. Never did well with french in school and couldnt be bothered to learn German which is my mother's parents first language. That being said, as far as languages go, I do really like Japanese and I'd love to be fluent with it, but thats likely never going to happen.

shadow-of-sin

2007-04-07, 03:15

I recommend that you look at this guide: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ (probably the best guide for Japanese on the net- and its also better than some books which you find these days). You can also go to the forums there to ask questions.

You may also like learning Japanese through podcasts: http://www.japanesepod101.com

Good luck with learning Japanese it gonna take a while- esp. kanji
;)

shiro83

2007-04-07, 03:17

I picked it up through anime. :)
I have been watching anime like about 8 years.

Like Icehawk said, some of the phrases spoken I can recognize but me speaking proper Japanese is impossible.

I had also bought a book on Japanese basics. It helped me a little.

I think to pick the language up, a proper language course is needed. :p

Gaiarth

2007-04-07, 04:04

I went to lessons at a Japanese language school. 90 minutes, twice a week, for about 1 1/2 years. That got me to what they called a Higher Intermediate stage, which was basically a good general conversational level. This is enough to get the general gist of what's going on in most shows, so long as they don't get too technical or existential (which rules out GitS on both counts! :) ) Unfortunately, the school shut down a few years back, so I couldn't get any further.

Basically, if you want to learn the language properly, enough to watch a show without subtitles and understand most of whats going on, or read manga without going to a kanji dictionary every other character, you need to take proper classes.

Red Herring

2007-04-07, 19:44

Thanks for the advice fellas. I'm gonna enroll in Japanese 101 next semester nad hopefully I'll have at least a rudimentary command of it when I graduate heh.

Islaya

2007-04-07, 19:46

I got A's all through Japanese my junior year but failed the mid-term and final. I barely managed to pass Japanese 2 my senior year. The basics were simple, but katakana and most of the kanji beat me senseless.

Red Herring

2007-04-07, 19:52

I kind of have an easy major so I can concentrate more on the Japanese. I mean, that isn't why I picked my major, but it is a plus. I'm hoping teach overseas for a few years when I get out.

Islaya

2007-04-07, 19:54

I gave up on learning it in school. I got the "books on tape" I can learn it at my own pace and don't have to worry about grades.

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-07, 20:32

My best advice would be to diversify your learning mediums. I've used a language learning CD-ROM, which got me through basic grammar and basic vocabulary, Hiragana and Katakana. I'd say this is the best tool for starting from scratch.
Kanji is being acquired through a mixture of systematic study and osmosis/dictionary digging.
Naturalness would be covered in anime, manga, and other books that are not written with the aim of teaching Japanese to foreigners, unless you're reading something that was originally written for a Japanese audience and later compiled with vocabulary and grammar assistance. These are usually for intermediate to upper intermediate students, though.

The number one thing that will help you learn the language is exposure. The more you hear and see it used, the more familiar it will become, and the easier it will be to absorb new information.

WanderingKnight

2007-04-07, 20:35

Haha, I've been watching anime heavily for over 10 years now and I still dont know much Japanese.

I picked it up in about a year of watching anime :heh: Of course, not to its full extent, but with another year of regular learning on my shoulders I now have enough tools to read and understand manga (with the passing help of a dictionary) with no problems at all. But of course, I've always had a knack for picking up languages on my own. For example, the English I'm using right now I learned it for myself, with no one teaching me anything asides some basics from school (and English education at school is one of the worse things you see around here ^^).

Of course, more complex and narrative versions of Japanese prove more difficult to understand. That's why now I'm in my second year of studying Japanese.

Kanji is being acquired through a mixture of systematic study and osmosis/dictionary digging.

I've had many problems learning kanji from systematic studying. But that's just me, since I suck when it comes to memory studying. That's why I mainly learn kanji through reading + dictionary. After a couple of times of reading the same kanji a few times in different phrases, it somehow manages to stick in my mind.

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-07, 20:52

I've had many problems learning kanji from systematic studying. But that's just me, since I suck when it comes to memory studying. That's why I mainly learn kanji through reading + dictionary. After a couple of times of reading the same kanji a few times in different phrases, it somehow manages to stick in my mind.

Ditto, but I still do some formal study if only to say that I am indeed studying and to help boost familiarity.

Some people prefer to study, but I was always that guy who only opened his textbook in class and breezed through every test without ever studying, so I don't really even know how to learn things by rote memorization.

Syaoran

2007-04-09, 07:48

Does someone know where I can find a list of verbs with their irregular honorific and humble counterparts?

Nervous Venus

2007-04-10, 14:59

I'm learning through osmosis, lol. My dad speaks enough daily Japanese, enough to complain about the weather, or that his head hurts, or for us to run down to the store to buy him some car parts. My brother and I speak and read fluently. The only hurdle in my path is kanji. Seems to be a problem with lots of people here. I guess, we all have different ways of taking it in (taking it apart?)

My brother counts strokes and reads Kanji de manga, and he practices writing everyday. I can't. My brain's a sieve. I read a lot of manga, but ones that are furiganaless are starting to nudge me on the shoulders, like " Hey, get it through your thick head!" If I don't learn, I can't read Tenjho Tenge or Honey and Clover the way I want to.

But I've learned to recognize a lot kanji. I may not be able to read it properly, but I at least know what they stand for.

Does someone know where I can find a list of verbs with their irregular honorific and humble counterparts?

Verbs don't have a formal, or informal, or honorifics. At least I've never heard of anything like that. Do you mean conjugations?

Syaoran

2007-04-10, 15:25

Verbs don't have a formal, or informal, or honorifics. At least I've never heard of anything like that. Do you mean conjugations?
I meant those irregular verbs that cannot be formed with お＋Verbbase+になる or お＋Verbbase＋する
The ones like:
食べる　　めしあがる　　　いただく
行く　　　いらっしゃる　　まいる
来る　　　いらっしゃる　　まいる
言う　　　おっしゃる　　　お言いする
会う　　　おあいになる　　おめにかかる
する　　　なさる　　　　　いたす
・・・

Honey_and_Cleaver

2007-04-11, 19:18

Right now im only in Advance level 1. I can understand japanese but i not completed it fully. Although i watch a lot of animes, i suck the most in my class. My sensei tells me my japanese is totally rude.

raikage

2007-04-11, 21:48

I meant those irregular verbs that cannot be formed with お＋Verbbase+になる or お＋Verbbase＋する
The ones like:
食べる　　めしあがる　　　いただく
行く　　　いらっしゃる　　まいる
来る　　　いらっしゃる　　まいる
言う　　　おっしゃる　　　お言いする
会う　　　おあいになる　　おめにかかる
する　　　なさる　　　　　いたす
・・・

Ah. There's no such online list that I know of, sorry.

Right now im only in Advance level 1. I can understand japanese but i not completed it fully. Although i watch a lot of animes, i suck the most in my class. My sensei tells me my japanese is totally rude.
Stop watching anime for a little while. :)

It might help you get out of the habit of speaking like a 16-year old rude boy.

WanderingKnight

2007-04-11, 22:07

Stop watching anime for a little while.

It might help you get out of the habit of speaking like a 16-year old rude boy.

I second that. Or, at least, get off the impression that all Japanese people speak like anime characters :p

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-11, 22:17

Dropping anime entirely seems a bit extreme to me. I suggest trying to refrain from imitating the speech patterns in anime and instead usuing it for vocabulary reinforcement.

A real problem with politeness arises when teaching foreigners Japanese. Children in Japan speak in a manner that would be considered rude coming from a person who's of age to know better, but a foreigner learning Japanese essentially is a child in that language. This may be why the somewhat impractical 'masu' form of speech is the first taught. Honestly, the only occasions I ever use that form of speech is when meeting someone for the first time (though usually only for the first minute of the conversation) and when offering my opinion/suggestion to someone older than myself. Whether this is technically correct, I don't know, but no one's ever corrected me on it.

WanderingKnight

2007-04-11, 22:24

Actually, the ~masu form is probably best used in a situation where you're totally stranger to the person and his or her position, that is, a standard way of speaking to someone in the street. Or, at least, that's how I see it.

PS: Our avvies are so similar that it's making me dizzy.

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-11, 23:16

Of course, it's useful when needed, but unless you're constantly meeting new people (actually living and working in Japan), you'll rarely use it. In fact, one thing to watch out for is that it can be considered somewhat rude to continue using polite speech with friends, as you may come across as distant. Unless you're a . Then it sounds fine, but male and female speech is a whole new can of worms which I'm not wanting to get into for someone who's still in their first year of Japanese.

Bottom line: Don't shrug off politeness, but don't make yourself crazy over it, either. I've found that being a gaijin will let you get away with just about anything once.

PS: I had mine first :P

tritoch

2007-04-12, 01:00

Wow, people actually take classes for this? I started learning last Sunday and now I pretty much can read hiragana/katakana and uh a few kanji without fail.

Having someone to talk/write in japanese greatly helps in absorbing vast amounts of information. :D

On the rudeness, putting ~desu 「です」 or ~masu　「ます」　even once in a phrase makes it not so... rude. :D

Syaoran

2007-04-12, 02:44

Ah. There's no such online list that I know of, sorry.
Crap ^^'
Guess I'll have to pick them up when I hear people using keigo then.

Honey_and_Cleaver

2007-04-12, 06:22

My japanese teacher doesnt get made at me for being totally rude at my japanese. She says it good to absorb japanese culture from animes, it shows tham im well familiar with japanese sounds. When it comes to pronouncing, i have good ear in my class, but not good memory.

Yeah adding masu and desu makes it less rude. Instead of "nei yo", you say "dewa arimasen desuyo"

Actually i find polite japanese sucks, too long and i like how rude japanese tend to sound.

Sometimes i spill out "Attarimai ja nei ka yo!" or "en da?". My teacher just laughs. I think later, i would get screwed for this.

deathreape98

2007-04-12, 18:23

moshi-moshi means hi too btw^_^

and, i was wondering. should i learn hira or kanji first?

WanderingKnight

2007-04-12, 21:51

and, i was wondering. should i learn hira or kanji first?

Could you even try learning kanji without knowing hiragana? I'd rather think that's impossible :heh:. Where are you getting your sources from?

garra

2007-04-12, 22:03

that was the best lesson i ever had

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-12, 22:08

moshi-moshi means hi too btw^_^

and, i was wondering. should i learn hira or kanji first?

Moshimoshi is generally used only when you're unsure of whom you're speaking to - such as on the phone or when someone is facing away from you - or to get someone's attention.

Oh, and learn to read Hiragana -> Katakana -> Kanji.

raikage

2007-04-13, 00:52

You guys' avatars confuse me.

Crap ^^'
Guess I'll have to pick them up when I hear people using keigo then.
To be honest, though, I wouldn't think Japanese people would expect a foreigner to have a good understanding of son'keigo (尊敬語) and ken'jougo (謙譲語) -- or to even know what they are.

My japanese teacher doesnt get made at me for being totally rude at my japanese. She says it good to absorb japanese culture from animes, it shows tham im well familiar with japanese sounds. When it comes to pronouncing, i have good ear in my class, but not good memory.

Yeah adding masu and desu makes it less rude. Instead of "nei yo", you say "dewa arimasen desuyo"

Actually i find polite japanese sucks, too long and i like how rude japanese tend to sound.

Sometimes i spill out "Attarimai ja nei ka yo!" or "en da?". My teacher just laughs. I think later, i would get screwed for this.
http://talk.ocf.net/images/smilies/suspicious.gif

You don't speak a language based on whatever words you think sounds cool.

I can't speak with certainty, but if you really do want to learn the language on its own rights (not simply because you love anime) then break this habit or you WILL get burned later on. I'm actually very surprised your teacher would let you get away with speaking like a punk kid.

tritoch

2007-04-13, 01:28

anybody know of any good japanese dictionary? Google:translation fails me 100% and uh free dict doesn't work sometimes. :D

I need a dict! :D

I effing failed grammar. I know what I am saying/writing but my grammar just killed me.. "gakusei ha nihon" stuff.. FAIL

CarpeDiem

2007-04-13, 01:32

Syaoran

2007-04-13, 04:33

You guys' avatars confuse me.To be honest, though, I wouldn't think Japanese people would expect a foreigner to have a good understanding of son'keigo (尊敬語) and ken'jougo (謙譲語) -- or to even know what they are.
Well... here at university we've to be able to use keigo and not only when giving a presentation ^^'

Most people here study Japanese in order to work in Japan or at least for a Japanese company here and therefore they say it's important that we know about it. It's my first year of Japanese. The next year they'll focus on when to use what kind of speech etc.

For now they introduced just a few irregular verbs and the grammatical rules to form humble and honorific forms. We get lots of exercises about it... Oral as well as written. Lately I've been busy with 授受動詞 (jujudoushi) in humble and honorific forms in sentences where you put a verb in the 〜て形＋Giving/Receiving verbs i.e.

deathreape98

2007-04-13, 04:49

Moshimoshi is generally used only when you're unsure of whom you're speaking to - such as on the phone or when someone is facing away from you - or to get someone's attention.

Oh, and learn to read Hiragana -> Katakana -> Kanji.ok, thanks

WanderingKnight

2007-04-13, 19:42

I need a dict!

There's a freeware word processor online called JWPCe that comes integrated with EDICT, which is a pretty helpful English-Japanese & Japanese-English tool. Anyways, if you don't want to download the program, you can check Jim Breen's WWWJDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html), which has edict and glossdic, as well as many other dictionaries (most of which I still haven't found the use for, but I'm sure I will someday).

Kyuusai

2007-04-13, 23:44

For those on other OSes, there are similar edict-integrating dictionaries.
I use gjiten on Linux and Mayjay on OS X.

And if I'm on the web, I either use Jim Breen's server or, more commonly these days, I visit http://jisho.org/ which is also my #1 spot for looking up kanji by radical (it has a great interface, give it a try!)

I'm extra glad I found jisho.org, because I only came across it while researching how to build something very similar. Saved me a lot of work! :D

Honey_and_Cleaver

2007-04-14, 21:32

You guys' avatars confuse me.

http://talk.ocf.net/images/smilies/suspicious.gif

You don't speak a language based on whatever words you think sounds cool.

I can't speak with certainty, but if you really do want to learn the language on its own rights (not simply because you love anime) then break this habit or you WILL get burned later on. I'm actually very surprised your teacher would let you get away with speaking like a punk kid.

I dont find it sucks because it sounds cool, it sucks because it damn hard to remember. Polite japanese is the most difficult to learn especially when speaking to a boss. Theres even a different japanese when writing. I just find the plain japanese much fun to use and sounds nicer. Anyway wanting to know the words that sounds cool is developes an interest in japanese, i think thats what my japanese teacher thinks. All of the other students study japanese because of work.

Yeah i know. Ill get burn for this. I have to cut this habit.:heh:

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-14, 23:22

Erawyn

2007-04-15, 09:01

Actually, polite speech is much easier, since all the verbs conjugate the same with the 'masu' ending (which may be another reason why it's usually taught first). It is also less prone to random idiosyncracies, so it's easier to understand people when they speak this way.

In addition to that, it's much easier to manipulate -masu form into other forms such as -te form. Also, lot's of grammar structures just use the verb stem (masu form but without the -masu). Which is why it's almost always taught first. However, being polite isn't only just about using masu form (teineigo). Sonkeigo and kenjougo is where it gets slightly tricky.

Teineigo (-masu) is just to be polite overall, whereas sonkeigo is where you are describing the actions of people superior than you and kenjougo is where you are actually speaking to someone higher than you (eg, your company's CEO) and you are describing the action of you and the people within your "group." When using these forms of speech, some verbs change into something completely different

Some examples of this (straight out of my text book):

Sonkeigo (尊敬語):

To go, come, be: 行く(iku), 来る(kuru), いる(iru) -> いらっしゃる(irassharu)
To do: する(suru) -> 為さる(nasaru)
To say: 言う(iu) -> おっしゃる (ossharu)
To look: 見る(miru) -> ご覧になる (goran ni naru)
To come: 来る(kuru) -> おいでになる(oide ni naru)
To be: である(dearu) -> でいらっしゃる (deirassharu)
To eat: 食べる(taberu) -> 召し上がる (meshiagaru)
To know: 知る(shiru) -> ご存知である(gozonji dearu)

Kenjougo (謙譲語):

To go: 行く(iku) -> 伺う(ukagau)
To say: 言う(iu) -> 申す(mousu)
To look: 見る(miru) -> 拝見する(haikensuru)
To come: 来る(kuru) -> 参る(mairu)
To be: である (dearu) -> でござる(degozaru)
To know: 知る(shiru) -> 存じる(zonjiru)
To eat, drink, recieve: 食べる(taberu), 飲む(nomu), もらう(morau) -> 頂く(itadaku)
To be (person): いる(iru) -> おる(oru)

By the way, about that JWPce. Download it. Now. It is VERY useful. :p If it were to keep a log of how many times i've used its dictionary, it would at least be in the 5 digit figure. Really useful for people learning japanese, saves the fuss of going to an online dictionary and searching for a word (don't even mention a real dictionary)

WanderingKnight

2007-04-15, 09:15

To say: 言う(iu) -> 申す(mousu)

Whoa, I can finally understand where 申し訳ありません comes from. Never thought it'd mean that, really.

Ledgem

2007-04-16, 21:56

My preferred dictionary: http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dict (has mirrors, occasionally you may have to use them). Also includes kanji look-up through various means, but not through visual recognition (although the visual ones seem to be pretty flawed. Nice idea, though). You might need to tweak a special option to get it out output the reading in hiragana instead of romaji on some mirrors, although that might only matter to you if you're like me and can't stand romaji in place of hiragana/katakana. Probably a nice option for the beginners, though.

WanderingKnight

2007-04-16, 22:32

Also includes kanji look-up through various means, but not through visual recognition (although the visual ones seem to be pretty flawed. Nice idea, though)

I use Microshit's IME pad for visual kanji recognition (that is, you draw the kanji with your mouse) and it works perfectly. That is, considering you write the characters in the right order.

Vexx

2007-04-17, 02:52

Even the Japanese have given up and write left to right in Microsoft Office :)

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-18, 01:59

I'm translating a manga, and the word ヴァギナデンタータ has me confounded. Any ideas?

Context: 「オグルはシイナに張り付いてるな」　「ヴァギナデンタータだよ」

It could be a proper noun, I know, but just in case.

Scourge87

2007-04-18, 12:40

I only know a few
Aniki-san-------Older Brother
Mizu----------Water
Kitsune-------Fox
Mushi Mushi---------"Hello" on the Telephone
and Konuchiwah(don't know how to spell this one)------Hello

I do wish I can speak Japanese as well as I can speak english, no maybe better:heh:

Syaoran

2007-04-18, 13:24

What Kind of manga are you translating XD ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ヴァギナデンタータ is read as vaginatentaata?
Sounds like vaginal tentacle to me O.o

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-18, 14:31

It's not what you're thinking, I promise :heh:

It's actually 'dentaata.' And there'd be a 'ku' on the end instead of 'ta' if it were 'tentacle.'
Although something along those lines did cross my mind :rolleyes:

If all else fails, I'll just render it phonetically and wait for someone to complain ;)

Syaoran

2007-04-18, 15:15

Ouch >_<
My bad... after the first part of the word my brain probably entered a side track to continue processing that word ;)

But for once that sidetrack was more or less right.
It's still gross when you imagine what it could look like and I'm very good at imagining stuff! Sometimes what I imagine scares the shit out of me. Not because it's gross, but because I was able to imagine such things.

Appearantly it's latin and Vagina Dentata means toothed vagina. It's some kind of goddess.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina_dentata

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-18, 17:55

Whoa, awesome job at hunting that nugget down. That makes a lot of sense considering the story I'm translating (I'm picking up Dark Horse's slack and doing the rest of Naru Taru), so that's probably it. Someone gets a cookie.

deathreape98

2007-04-18, 20:19

i know this probably isnt true, but in the hiragana gojun-zo or w/e its called, if you put the symbols for "ha" and "i" next to each other will it be the same as hai?

tombo

2007-04-19, 16:17

Almost.
おしい。

ヴァギナデンタータ = Vagina dentata

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagina_dentata

Vexx

2007-04-19, 16:28

Always helpful to have a fluent speaker of a language to help out :) (see Tombo's introduction in the introduction thread).

However... now I'm not sure I *want* know what kind of manga you're translating :) ... I've seen that mythic instance before in some science fiction writing though.... fear of the mysterious - why are there always grue in the dark? :)

rooboy

2007-04-19, 16:32

Syaoran

2007-04-19, 16:49

I think you've just convinced me not to read Naru Taru. ;)
I've seen the anime :p
It's violent and gore.

When you see the first episodes it's oooooh.... cute.. but then they unleash hell on earth :3

Anyway, does the manga cover more than the anime?
Where that girl gets raped and killed by the monster in that classroom... well... that's pretty much I can remember about the last few episodes I saw.

raikage

2007-04-19, 17:02

i know this probably isnt true, but in the hiragana gojun-zo or w/e its called, if you put the symbols for "ha" and "i" next to each other will it be the same as hai?

I'm not sure I understand the question. :confused:

If you put ha next to i do you get hai?

I assume yes...but I think there's something to your question that I'm missing.

jeff1970

2007-04-19, 17:04

Eh, removed this post, because admin suggested it might be inappropriate for this forum.
sorry ^^

deathreape98

2007-04-19, 17:34

I'm not sure I understand the question. :confused:

If you put ha next to i do you get hai?

I assume yes...but I think there's something to your question that I'm missing.
i mena if you put ha then i will be be said as hai or ha i?

WanderingKnight

2007-04-19, 20:07

i mena if you put ha then i will be be said as hai or ha i?

Uhhh... with all due respect, from where do you get the feeling that HA next to I would be HA I...?

はい. That's all there is to it. Hiragana is written just as your conventional western characters.

Maybe you're referring to the lack of vowel glides, aka diphthongs, in Jap... In that case, yes, Japanese is a syllabic language where a syllable is pronounced isolated from the rest of the syllables.

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-19, 21:36

Oh come on, guys. I have a strict 'no pr0n' policy on translation (doesn't necessarily mean no n4kedness), so no, I'm not translating that kind of manga :rolleyes:
Even if I were, I wouldn't pore over the translation enough to inquire about a term I couldn't figure out, since everyone would be too preoccupied to call me out on it ;)

Anyway, does the manga cover more than the anime?

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, it all happens a bit differently, but yeah, that does happen around volume seven. That's when Dark Horse dropped it :heh:

raikage

2007-04-20, 23:12

Uhhh... with all due respect, from where do you get the feeling that HA next to I would be HA I...?

はい. That's all there is to it. Hiragana is written just as your conventional western characters.

Maybe you're referring to the lack of vowel glides, aka diphthongs, in Jap... In that case, yes, Japanese is a syllabic language where a syllable is pronounced isolated from the rest of the syllables.

In retrospect, perhaps he was referring to the lack of spaces between words.

In which case, deathreape98, use your best judgment.

Equator Bear

2007-04-21, 09:07

kitto-chan

2007-04-21, 13:14

Erawyn

2007-04-22, 01:27

I just had the first month of my Japanese course. Concerning that my mother language is Chinese, I think it's much easier for me to learn it(the two have a lot in common). However, they always say that the further you go, the harder it will be. And I did become a little confused...

I've been studying japanese for 3-4 years now in high school in Sydney, my mother language being chinese. Compared to people who speak only english, Japanese (infact, any asian language) is easier to learn if you know an asian language already. I think this is due to the fact that some words (especially some kanji) and grammar structure don't have an exact, solid defintion in English, while they do in asian languages such as Korean and Chinese.

For instance, i remember in my first year, people had trouble understanding the kanji "族", there isn't an exact defintion of it in english, while there is one in chinese and korean. The best definition my teacher could come up with is a group of people who share a similar trait.

Kanji will be no problem, you will be able to guess the onyomi readings, which really helps, but you will have to learn the kunyomi readings normally. I find that a lot of chinese learners fall into the trap of relying on chinese too much, but perhaps that is because they really aren't interested in learning japanese but instead scoring high in the course :heh: Mainly, the difficulty depends on your enthusiasm for it. If you're willing to take the time and learn, then it will be no problem.

Something interesting i've found is that chinese learners of japanese tend to focus on kanji (naturally) a lot more while korean learners focus on grammar more. I think this may be because like japanese, their sentence structure is also Subject-Object-Verb

Equator Bear

2007-04-22, 07:24

Something interesting i've found is that chinese learners of japanese tend to focus on kanji (naturally) a lot more ..

Ya, I found that too. Sometimes you just can't change your habit. And btw, I really like the hiragana. Their shapes are so cute:)

Umi

2007-04-22, 20:43

ほんとうに、　だれ　が　日本語　が　話せるか。

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-22, 20:57

うん。しかしそのように書かないよ。日本語には一字空けるな。

WanderingKnight

2007-04-22, 21:21

ほんとうに、　だれ　が　日本語　が　話せるか。

Don't write spaces when using kana/kanji! It makes it harder to read!

PS: Crap, I was beaten. I get this for not looking till the last page >.<

ShikaShika

2007-04-23, 10:08

Syaoran

2007-04-23, 11:27

I've been studying Japanese full time for almost a year now and I'm still reluctant to type Japanese or even try to be friends with one of the many Japanese people walking around on the campus.
I still have that idea in my mind of "if you don't know how to say it correctly, stfu". It's kind of problematic and I can't manage to get rid of it ^^'

Mueti

2007-04-23, 12:53

よしゃああ、カナで書きましょう！みんあどのぐらい日本語を勉強した？俺はもうすぐ４年間前勉強を始めたけどその間に大体自分で勉強した。もちろん自分で勉強したからする気がだんだんなくなって全部で多分１年間以下勉強した。:pまあ、新年から東京で日本語の学校に入って毎日すごく疲れてしまう。今日本で勉強しているメンバーがいるのかな？文法と漢字はなんとなくできるなんだけど会話はへただと思う。:p

まあ、それでいいか。よろしく！

Edit: Ok, I'm feeling stupid now because I looked back a few pages and noone's speaking in Japanese even... :heh:
俺の日本語の勉強を始めた時はアニメを見る始めた時と同じぐらいなんだ。それは今年の一月だよ。尊敬語と謙譲語はまだ全然わからないけど、たくさん日本語をアニメと漫画で習っただから。日本でいるなら問題ないって希望するけどね。なんとなく習うからと思う。
会話の事は俺にちょっと難しいんだ、誰も日本語を話す人知らないだから。

それにバカみたいって思い必要はない。ちょっと日本語で書くはいいアイデアって思うから。:p

きっと何か誤りあるから誰か正してください！^^

Shiroha

2007-04-23, 13:07

I've been studying Japanese full time for almost a year now and I'm still reluctant to type Japanese or even find try to be friends with one of the many Japanese people walking around on the campus.
I still have that idea in my mind of "if you don't know how to say it correctly, stfu". It's kind of problematic and I can't manage to get rid of it ^^'

Hey, me too. I haven't been studying continuously for that long, but from past experience I don't like saying something that I always thought was correct and have the other person blank me :heh:

Vexx

2007-04-23, 13:10

I hope people remember that when immigrants get embarrassed and stumble around with their English. Learning a foreign language and trying to use it with native speakers should be required just to force some recognition into people who make fun of english-as-second-language students :)

I'll admit to still separating my japanese writing with spaces though I've gotten to where I'll type the short phrases together. Also, I'm sort of at the tipping point with the language. I can sound out the phonetics, spot the words about half the time without looking them up... but the kanji has me constantly scrambling for my dictionary.

I guess in real times, I might be at a Elementary Grade 2 in reading/writing... but still some kind of very oddly enhanced pre-schooler in speaking skills who (like most pre-schoolers) can listen and understand more than they can create speech.

Mueti

2007-04-23, 13:47

I guess in real times, I might be at a Elementary Grade 2 in reading/writing... but still some kind of very oddly enhanced pre-schooler in speaking skills who (like most pre-schoolers) can listen and understand more than they can create speech.

Of course the gap between the words you understand upon hearing and the ones you are able to use yourself is bigger for children. But even though smaller it's there for everyone. Your passive vocabulary will always exceed your active one, even in your mother-tongue. The better you know the language the less the difference but it'll never disappear.

btw, your new avatar is irritating, I used to recognise you on the spot by your old one. :heh:

Vexx

2007-04-23, 15:13

Heh... yeah, its always irritating when someone changes their avatar... I've gone through 4 or 5 in a few years though. Yeah, after I posted that, I thought, "idiot, thats the way *all* people work (bigger passive versus active vocab)." But on the other hand, *KNOWING* a word or phrase means being able to use it properly as well as understand it from my perspective.

CarpeDiem

2007-04-23, 20:40

会話の事は俺にちょっと難しいんだ、誰も日本語を話す人知らないだから。

そうですね。私は二年前の十二月から、日本語を自習しています。それなのに私には会話ができません。一緒に日本語の会話を練習する人がないし私の単語がまだまだですから。それに、残念だけど、最近学校の学業から勉強できません。しかし、大学に入ったら、日本語を勉強するつもりです。

とにかく、これからもよろしくお願いします。

Nagato

2007-04-23, 21:28

日本語には一字空けるな。
kowai :heh:
You seem to be strict person, from that sentence

そうですね。私は二年前の十二月から、日本語を自習しています。それなのに私には会話ができません。一緒に日本語の会話を練習する人がないし私の単語がまだまだですから。それに、残念だけど、最近学校の学業から勉強できません。しかし、大学に入ったら、日本語を勉強するつもりです。

とにかく、これからもよろしくお願いします。
こちらこそ夜露死苦　J/K
よろしくお願いします。カルペさん作文上手ですね。言葉の流れが自然で、読みやすい。私は４年前かな、日本語を始めたのは。

ところで、ここでは、ときどき自動的にスペースができたみたいね。

AndyTran

2007-04-23, 21:43

would it not be awesome if from now on we try to speak in Japanese as much as possible?
It'd be tons of help for my Japanese and hopefully everyone else's as well.

日本語だけ話せようか。:p

じゃ、じこうしょうかいさせていただきます。私も二年前日本語を始めた。あまり上手じゃないけど、日本語で話す事を続いたら、きっと進めるよ。今ゴールは高校に卒業する前に日本能力試験二きゅうを取ります。皆、どうぞよろしくお願いします。

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-23, 22:14

kowai :heh:
You seem to be strict person, from that sentence

Sorry about that. I was really tired and my polite circuits wouldn't fire. I should have said 一字空けるのは正しくない or something instead :heh:
It does bug me when people make weird mistakes like that, though. I have no idea how it would enter a person's head, since I've never seen Japanese written with spaces outside of romaaji.

would it not be awesome if from now on we try to speak in Japanese as much as possible?
It'd be tons of help for my Japanese and hopefully everyone else's as well.

いいイデアだな。どうしてずっとそのように書かないの？:heh:

AndyTran

2007-04-23, 22:52

もうイデアをだしているよ。英語でちょっと書いてもいいでしょう。じゃこのスレの中に出来るまで日本語で書こうね。

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-23, 22:58

それじゃ、みんな日本語で書こうよ。

……が、何を口に上したいか？

AndyTran

2007-04-23, 23:59

だいたい、話ってないや。ちょっと考えたけど、いい題がないさ。あの。。。ファトピアノボイさん、選んで。
クラスにしょうらいの事などばっかりから、そんなような事を選ばないで下さい

Vexx

2007-04-24, 00:24

You people are making me work too hard .... argh....

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-24, 01:15

だいたい、話ってないや。ちょっと考えたけど、いい題がないさ。あの。。。ファトピアノボイさん、選んで。
クラスにしょうらいの事などばっかりから、そんなような事を選ばないで下さい

何で俺が選ばなきゃ？:rolleyes:
クラスのことがだめと言ったので…　ジュースが好き？
なんてね。えーと、誰かの日本に行った事があるか？
でも、ちょっと詰まらないんだろうか。面白い話は…　ブッシュ米大統領のヘアスタイル！これどう？

ところで、さんって言わないでください :heh:

You people are making me work too hard .... argh....

Then let me introduce you to your new best friend (http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/) ;)

Vexx

2007-04-24, 02:13

ooooooooh, shiny....

ShikaShika

2007-04-24, 08:54

何で俺が選ばなきゃ？:rolleyes:
クラスのことがだめと言ったので…　ジュースが好き？
なんてね。えーと、誰かの日本に行った事があるか？
でも、ちょっと詰まらないんだろうか。面白い話は…　ブッシュ米大統領のヘアスタイル！これどう？

ところで、さんって言わないでください :heh:

小泉さんのヘアスタイルの方はかっこい。ブッシュ米大統領にも似合ってるかも。:heh:

Syaoran

2007-04-24, 11:49

How come people here use the informal/informal volitional tense instead of regular polite Japanese? I'm being taught formal speech and keigo O.o

Do you pick it up just by watching anime or what? Really, I watch some anime and don't pick up that much of everything.

Pfff... mom and dad were right with lots of things they said in the past T_T
And go study languages after high school was one of them... the older you get, the harder it gets >_<
I'm concentrating more on grammar rather than just speak and see how it gets.

* Makes a note for the next life: always listen to mom & dad's advice ^^'

jianfish

2007-04-24, 11:54

Mueti

2007-04-24, 12:19

How come people here use the informal/informal volitional tense instead of regular polite Japanese? I'm being taught formal speech and keigo O.o

Hmm, I don't really know what is appropriate/common on the internet. Could some regular visitor of Japanese forums (or else^^) please fill me in? :)

I was looking at Japanese characters and I realised that it incorporates quite some Chinese characters into it as well. Apparently the same characters are pronounced quite differently but end up having the same meaning. I was in Hokkaido recently and I could roughly get around reading the chinese in the signboards. So I was wondering a little about the correlation.

For example 英語 is pronounced Ying Wen in Chinese, which means English or English language. Can I assume it means the same in Japanese as well? How would you pronounce it in Jap.

I don't know any Chinese so please correct me if what I say is wrong but I believe the meanings of the kanji and even of compounds don't change that much in Japanese.
英語also means English language in Japanese but is pronounced "eigo".

AndyTran

2007-04-24, 17:38

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-24, 18:29

小泉さん誰？どうしてブッシュにもに似合ってると思ってるの？

AndyTran

2007-04-24, 18:45

小泉さんって先首相の純一郎小泉さんですか。そうならブッシュよりベートーヴェンに似合っていると思いますけど。

WanderingKnight

2007-04-24, 21:13

Then let me introduce you to your new best friend

うお！いいアイディアじゃないか！でもさ、俺はロリフォックスを使うんですけど、同じなんだろうね...なんか、今はだらけで、ちょっと試したい気がしませんね...

そうそう、日本語で話すってアイディアがいいと思う、まだいってないか？:p

ibreatheanime

2007-04-24, 21:22

AndyTran

2007-04-24, 21:22

そうそう、日本語で話すってアイディアがいいと思う、まだいってないか？:p

もちろん！誰でもいいさ。話したいなら話せ！これは練習なのよ。

AndyTran

2007-04-24, 21:38

So true. I don't see why people find the need to curse or call people idiots in japanese. You wouldn't want people coming to america speaking with rude insults, rather than being polite now would you?

すみません。ルールをちょっと破るぞ。

The way we are talking isn't rude or insulting whatsoever. Japanese language has many levels of speaking and the one we are using is the casual way of talking - like talking with your friends. Everybody, myself included, learned desu masu form first as that's the safest way of speaking to any person you've met for the first time. But if you're speaking with anyone you could consider friends or someone you want to get acquainted with, it's a lot more natural, friendly, and normal to speak joukai. Hell, if you were to speak only in keigo to people you've known for some time, it's pretty much saying "sorry, I don't really want to get close" and that's just cold.

Insulting language is a different story. Just remember how Yakuza guys in anime talk and you'll realize there's a huge difference.

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-24, 21:41

ロリフォックスとファイアフォックスが同じなものじゃないの？あの…ロリフォックスって何だ？可愛いロリのインターネット面白そうね…

りかいちゃんはすごく便利だけど、ちょっと縋りすぎての可能性がありますよ。 :heh:
だから気をつけてね。

WanderingKnight

2007-04-24, 21:51

ロリフォックスとファイアフォックスが同じなものじゃないの？あの…ロリフォックスって何だ？可愛いロリのインターネット面白そうね…

ロリフォックスはこれ (http://lolifox.com/)です。

AndyTran

2007-04-24, 21:59

ロリフォックスとファイアフォックスが同じなものじゃないの？あの…ロリフォックスって何だ？可愛いロリのインターネット面白そうね…

りかいちゃんはすごく便利だけど、ちょっと縋りすぎての可能性がありますよ。 :heh:
だから気をつけてね。

ええ。。。私もりかいちゃんは縋りやすすぎると思う。「あぁぁ、この漢字分かんない」という時にＡＬＴ＋ＤＥＬＥＴＥを押しようって、しまった:heh:

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-24, 22:43

ロリフォックスはこれ (http://lolifox.com/)です。

あっ、思ったことは当たらずといえども遠からずんだった。

ええ。。。私もりかいちゃんは縋りやすすぎると思う。「あぁぁ、この漢字分かんない」という時にＡＬＴ＋ＤＥＬＥＴＥを押しようって、しまった:heh:

えへ、俺もそうやるよ。良くない癖になられてしまった :heh:

WanderingKnight

2007-04-24, 22:54

How come people here use the informal/informal volitional tense instead of regular polite Japanese? I'm being taught formal speech and keigo O.o

お前、日本語の「BBS」に行った事がある？あそこで敬語が使えないんだよ　：P

Nagato

2007-04-24, 23:12

お前、日本語の「BBS」に行った事がある？あそこで敬語が使えないんだよ　：P
日本語の掲示板はユーザが　anonymous　って評判だからな。しかし、普通の掲示板もある。そ言う掲示板で、無闇にアニメ的や漫画的発言をすると美味しくないことになってしまう。
まぁ、「郷に入っては郷に従え」ってことだ。

ibreatheanime

2007-04-24, 23:19

The way we are talking isn't rude or insulting whatsoever. Japanese language has many levels of speaking and the one we are using is the casual way of talking - like talking with your friends. Everybody, myself included, learned desu masu form first as that's the safest way of speaking to any person you've met for the first time. But if you're speaking with anyone you could consider friends or someone you want to get acquainted with, it's a lot more natural, friendly, and normal to speak joukai. Hell, if you were to speak only in keigo to people you've known for some time, it's pretty much saying "sorry, I don't really want to get close" and that's just cold.

Insulting language is a different story. Just remember how Yakuza guys in anime talk and you'll realize there's a huge difference.

I meant insulting language, sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

AndyTran

2007-04-25, 00:48

I meant insulting language, sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

Haha yeah sorry I thought you were trying to be vitriolic. So apologies here too.

日本語の掲示板はユーザが　anonymous　って評判だからな。しかし、普通の掲示板もある。そ言う掲示板で、無闇にアニメ的や漫画的発言をすると美味しくないことになってしまう。
まぁ、「郷に入っては郷に従え」ってことだ。

そうですか。私はブログとかに入ってばっかりなんだ。普通という掲示板はあまりいった事がない。すみません、私は自分にちょっと馬鹿にしました
。。。ってそれはことわざなんでしょう。ながとさんも「ＪＡＰＡＮＢＯＷＬ］に入ってたんですか。

raikage

2007-04-25, 02:22

I was looking at Japanese characters and I realised that it incorporates quite some Chinese characters into it as well. Apparently the same characters are pronounced quite differently but end up having the same meaning. I was in Hokkaido recently and I could roughly get around reading the chinese in the signboards. So I was wondering a little about the correlation.

For example 英語 is pronounced Ying Wen in Chinese, which means English or English language. Can I assume it means the same in Japanese as well? How would you pronounce it in Jap.

I was wondering if the leap from Chinese to Jap is easier than the leap from English to Chinese. Perhaps I ought to tackle it in a different way. Anyway I will be taking up some classes at a Jap cultural association. Hopefully I will be able to converse with you guys in future.

A friend of mine from Taiwan says maybe about 70% of the characters are the same -- a significant amount, but then again you're also not knowing a significant amount.

And as for all you guys posing in 日本語 -- 今、少しい　疲れてるので、日本語が読みにくい...明日読むつもりだ。

Sure hope I wrote that right...

Nagato

2007-04-25, 02:56

そうですか。私はブログとかに入ってばっかりなんだ。普通という掲示板はあまりいった事がない。すみません、私は自分にちょっと馬鹿にしました
。。。ってそれはことわざなんでしょう。ながとさんも「ＪＡＰＡＮＢＯＷＬ］に入ってたんですか。

はい、「自分がいる所の習慣やしきたりに従え」って言う意味のことわざです。
JAPANBOWLですか。いいえ、入っていません。それは何でしょうか。クラブの名前ですか。

AndyTran

2007-04-25, 03:33

はい、「自分がいる所の習慣やしきたりに従え」って言う意味のことわざです。
JAPANBOWLですか。いいえ、入っていません。それは何でしょうか。クラブの名前ですか。

そうですか。まぁざんねんだね。「ＪＡＰＡＮＢＯＷＬ」はこれ (http://www.us-japan.org/dc/japanbowl.php)ですよ。色々なことわざを習わさせられたんだ。そのことわざも習わなっきゃいけなかった。

Syaoran

2007-04-25, 05:38

みんなさんは日本語が上手です。私は少しあなたちを妬みますが・・・去年の九月からルーヴァン大学でよく勉強しているのにできません。多分年取るから、文法と漢字と語彙をすぐ忘れるんです。困ったんな・・・
夏休み後でまた働く方がいいですか。私は自分を怒ります。

Mueti

2007-04-25, 09:57

Then let me introduce you to your new best friend (http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/) ;)

へー！どうもありがとうございました！:D これはすごく便利なツールだよ。
残念、まだファトピアノボヤにレプをできないけど。

Broken_Angel

2007-04-25, 11:24

^-^ That's so cool
I have english-japanese talking dictionary
^-^ But i think this is more helpfull ^_^

FatPianoBoy

2007-04-25, 20:08

Glad everybody's enjoying rikai-chan. That thing saves my life :D

(I just restored my computer and haven't set up Japanese yet)

Vexx

2007-04-26, 02:35

I was looking at Japanese characters and I realised that it incorporates quite some Chinese characters into it as well. Apparently the same characters are pronounced quite differently but end up having the same meaning. I was in Hokkaido recently and I could roughly get around reading the chinese in the signboards. So I was wondering a little about the correlation.

For example 英語 is pronounced Ying Wen in Chinese, which means English or English language. Can I assume it means the same in Japanese as well? How would you pronounce it in Jap.

I was wondering if the leap from Chinese to Jap is easier than the leap from English to Chinese. Perhaps I ought to tackle it in a different way. Anyway I will be taking up some classes at a Jap cultural association. Hopefully I will be able to converse with you guys in future.

I'll recommend that you use "japanese" instead of "jap" at least around japanese-americans (and all the native japanese I know). Its like saying "chink" instead of Chinese.... (in other words, a racial slur like wop, dago, and so on). just fyi....

If you're really trying to save time typing, you might use Microsoft's "JP" instead (and EN for english, etc).

ShikaShika

2007-04-26, 04:53

How come people here use the informal/informal volitional tense instead of regular polite Japanese? I'm being taught formal speech and keigo O.o

I just use what I normally use in daily life (when talking to classmates or friends), as it just feels more natural. Of course when speaking to strangers I use keigo. I have to admit though, that when speaking to my teacher I mix casual speech and keigo back and forth (but everyone in our class does).

ShikaShika

2007-04-26, 04:58

小泉さん誰？どうしてブッシュにもに似合ってると思ってるの？

この人知ってないの？http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junichiro_Koizumi

ブッシュはそんあヘアスタイルがあったら今よりかっこいじゃん？:p

Edit: Oops, meant to edit this into the above post, my fingers are ever too fast for me. Mod, please assist in merging. It wasn't on purpose, seriously! :heh:

Syaoran

2007-04-26, 04:59

If you're really trying to save time typing, you might use Microsoft's "JP" instead (and EN for english, etc).
You don't even need 'EN'. The Japanese IME Pad is enough. For typing english, you select the roman alphabet button, for Japanese you can choose hiragana. pressing F7 changes your word to katakana. For kanji, you press the spacebar and choose the suitable kanji. If you don't know how to pronounce kanji, then you try draing it with IME Pad.
If you're an azerty user, some little registry editing is required and you won't be able to type some accentuated character for French i.e.
For Windows my only keyboard is IME Pad and with Linux it's Anthy :)

ShikaShika

2007-04-26, 05:02

You don't even need 'EN'. The Japanese IME Pad is enough. For typing english, you select the roman alphabet button, for Japanese you can choose hiragana. pressing F7 changes your word to katakana. For kanji, you press the spacebar and choose the suitable kanji. If you don't know how to pronounce kanji, then you try draing it with IME Pad.
If you're an azerty user, some little registry editing is required and you won't be able to type some accentuated character for French i.e.
For Windows my only keyboard is IME Pad and with Linux it's Anthy :)

Syaoran, you don't use any special characters when writing in Dutch? Luuuucky.... I have to keep changing around because I need them stupid Swedish åäöÅÄÖ characters.

Syaoran

2007-04-26, 05:21

Syaoran, you don't use any special characters when writing in Dutch? Luuuucky.... I have to keep changing around because I need them stupid Swedish åäöÅÄÖ characters.
Not so much in Dutch, only a few words need characters like ë ï é. ë and ï are required for some plurals, but that's all. The accents ' or ` are use to stress a word, but not really required. Often only used in written language.
For French its quite different since you also get the ^ (dunno what it's called... "accent circonflexe" which is shown as ^e ^a, etc or even ^^
These are a few issues I'm trying to solve without having to use another keyboard. Same for Linux, but that's a question X server config imo.

issei

2007-04-26, 06:22

You don't even need 'EN'. The Japanese IME Pad is enough. For typing english, you select the roman alphabet button, for Japanese you can choose hiragana. pressing F7 changes your word to katakana. For kanji, you press the spacebar and choose the suitable kanji. If you don't know how to pronounce kanji, then you try draing it with IME Pad.
If you're an azerty user, some little registry editing is required and you won't be able to type some accentuated character for French i.e.
For Windows my only keyboard is IME Pad and with Linux it's Anthy :)

if i'm not mistaken, vexx was referring to the usage of "jp" as an abbreviation of "japanese" instead of the potential pejorative "jap," in the same way that "en" might abbreviate "english."

WanderingKnight

2007-04-26, 07:26

My teacher and many Japanese descendant people have used Jap, Japo, ponja (local idiom for Japanese) in front of me with no problem at all, and I've used the term in front of descendant people also without any problem. I don't know if it's any different over there, but here, as long as you say it with a friendly smile and are talking nicely (and of course you don't say it right when you meet the person) there should be no problems with that. I admit having written Jap over here quite a few times, but I like the colloquialism of it and don't feel it's harsh at all. You can call me Argie (as many British do) and I won't get angry, either.

Vexx

2007-04-26, 13:57

if i'm not mistaken, vexx was referring to the usage of "jp" as an abbreviation of "japanese" instead of the potential pejorative "jap," in the same way that "en" might abbreviate "english."

Its still considered massively pejorative on the North American continent and the japanese nationals and the japanese-americans I know treat it as an insult in much the same way that any other racial slur is reacted to. (My wife would break several joints in your body if you said "Jap" in her presence, for example). I still recall a fight a friend of mine got into at high school where at one point, the opponent called him a "jap" and then later a "dirty jap" (as the fight wore on).

It was used to great effect during WW2 as a propaganda tool to dehumanize the enemy (kind of like in the Vietnam era one had "gooks" or more recently, "ragheads" in the Middle East -- or some people of my country refer to people from South America with a variety of terms to express negativity). There's probably additional pain associated with it because of the very unwholesome treatment of japanese-americans during WW2 (internment camps, racists putting up signs saying "Japs go home", driving them from their property, etc)

If it *really* isn't pejorative in your neighborhood, that's great --- but just thought you should know the term isn't universally loved. My grandmother called blacks "nigra" til the day she died. She didn't think she had a racist bone in her body and seemed quite disbelieving when told that wasn't a wise idea :)

edit: oh, and though Syaoran was off-channel, his remarks are still quite useful and pertinent :)

Kyuusai

2007-04-26, 17:48

I have to chime in on this, too:

My ex-step-mother would absolutely NOT stand for the use of the term "Jap" in our household. When used in English, it is apparently considered HIGHLY insulting. (I learned that rather quickly as a child.)

My grandfather called them "Japs" whenever she wasn't around, though, and didn't mean anything negative by it. :) (He actually just says "Japanese" now that sad family history has encouraged him to develop some prejudice).

My father calls my little sister "Half-Nip" as a nickname, but I wouldn't say that's an acceptable term, either. :D

AndyTran

2007-04-26, 18:45

どんあ言葉と同じでしょう。「ＪＡＰ」を言って、だれも困らなければ、いいんじゃない？
でも、だれかは起こったら、言えずに方がいい。

Spectacular_Insanity

2007-05-01, 14:46

Hmm... as far as using "Jap" goes, I think it depends on to whom you're addressing at the time. For instance, my neighbors (before I moved to Indiana) were African Americans, but they insisted on being called black (an element of their pride as black people, I suppose). While others that I have known find it offensive.

It really depends on the person is what I'm getting at.

@ Vexx: Technically, the term "Jap" is not dehumanization, it's just an abbreviation. They were called Japs because it was a single syllable, versus three if you say "Jap-an-ese". The military also renamed all the Japanese fighters with code names (named with arbitrary American girl names) in order to make them easier to say for the American soldiers. In short, it's more practical to shorten or abbreviate names of those you're fighting--- it's easier to say in the thick of battle when things are happening extremely fast.

Now "dirty Jap" is a completely different case. That case that was mentioned in which someone called their opponent a Jap was, in context, extremely derogatory. However, if it is meant without malice or prejudice, I think it's acceptable. But then again, some might still find it offensive.

Seriously, though, someone will find offense at anything you say. And I think that some people actively search for things to get upset about... really....

Vexx

2007-05-01, 15:18

H
@ Vexx: Technically, the term "Jap" is not dehumanization, it's just an abbreviation. They were called Japs because it was a single syllable, versus three if you say "Jap-an-ese". The military also renamed all the Japanese fighters with code names (named with arbitrary American girl names) in order to make them easier to say for the American soldiers. In short, it's more practical to shorten or abbreviate names of those you're fighting--- it's easier to say in the thick of battle when things are happening extremely fast.

Now "dirty Jap" is a completely different case. That case that was mentioned in which someone called their opponent a Jap was, in context, extremely derogatory. However, if it is meant without malice or prejudice, I think it's acceptable. But then again, some might still find it offensive.

Seriously, though, someone will find offense at anything you say. And I think that some people actively search for things to get upset about... really....

Well... I'm just going to have to say you need to read up on history, propaganda, and dehumanization tactics of the 20th C. before continuing those assertions. Watch a few documentaries or newsreels. What you've just listed are basically the "rationalizations" for its use as the term was already racially charged prior to WW2. But feel free to use it at a JACL meeting or, for example, a cultural festival or, say, a 442nd reunion and report back, eh?

It doesn't really matter what *you*(the user) think of a racial term -- if the target population finds it offensive, you're damaging yourself by using it.

edit: here are a couple of links for edification: http://www.jacl.org/antihate/WordsFlyer.pdf http://www.jacl.org/antihate/ahhits.html
Urban dictionary links it with a multitude of racial slurs, Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: Jap Pronunciation: 'jap Function: noun or adjective usually disparaging.

Kyuusai

2007-05-01, 17:02

Vexx is correct on this.

While "Jap" was the term chosen because it was a an abbreviation, it was certainly used as a slur and a dehumanizing term. A quick search on google for propoganda films can give you an idea as to how it was used.

It is a bit different from "black" versus "African American", in that while that debate is merely over what term is preferred (I've only heard "African American" being used on the media or by PC white people, and I grew up in a predominantly black area), the term "Jap" is much like "The N Word", which was itself just an easier way to say what was then the proper term, "negro", but has a history of being used as a hateful term against a group of people who, in recent history, have had a great deal of hardship due to racism.

About 110,000 Japanese people lived in interment camps on US soil due to that racism and wartime fanatacism, and some of them are still alive. While almost all Japanese people in the US today no longer feel the effects of that tragedy and its farther-reaching consequences, I can guarantee you that, for most of them, it is still fresh on their minds and hearts.

deathreape98

2007-05-02, 06:03

Risaa

2007-05-02, 06:13

can anybody translate these phrases for me? i would appreciate it if you post the character(s) and the pronunciation

Virtue, Liberty, and Independence
good afternoon( i know ohaiyo is good morning, but udnno good afternoon)
common chat phrases, like how are you ( daijobu if im not incorrect)

bitoku = virtue
jiyuu = liberty
dokuritsu = independence

ohayou gozaimasu = good morning
konnichiwa = good afternoon
how are you = genki desu ka?

*daijoubu means I'm/it's/they're/everything's all right. You'd use it more if you were worried about the person, not just casually asking "how are you". I love the kanji compound for it, BTW. ^^

Woah.. tired. Off to sleep, ja, oyasumi.

Edit: oops, didn't see that you wanted the characters. I posted the pronunciation though. Sorry about that.

ShikaShika

2007-05-02, 07:13

Easily rectified. :)

美徳　bitoku = virtue
自由　jiyuu = liberty
独立　dokuritsu = independence

おはようございます　ohayou gozaimasu = good morning
こんにちは (or　今日は) konnichiwa = good afternoon
how are you = 元気ですか　genki desu ka?

deathreape98

2007-05-02, 13:50

arigatou gozaimasai

my schools doing a culture day, and my one teachers doing oriental, and is including japan and china, so i wanted to make a poster with these on it.

jacotyco

2007-05-05, 12:24

wherever im supposed to see japanese characters i get lots of '??????????' in this thread

Syaoran

2007-05-05, 13:24

You should install Japanese support for your operating system.
Here's a step by step guide... assuming you're using Windows XP: http://newton.uor.edu/Departments&Programs/AsianStudiesDept/Language/asianlanguageinstallation_XP.html

Crovax

2007-05-05, 16:53

deathreape 98

It's prolly been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but when you are looking for translations and how to write them in Japanese, JDIC is your friend. ;-)

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C

For pronunciation you have to be able to read kana though.

deathreape98

2007-05-05, 21:22

by pronunciation i meant in english, like hai, arigatou, sachyo, bitoku, genki gesu ka, etc.

btw, i only know how to read and write 36 hiaragana symbols >.<

FatPianoBoy

2007-05-05, 22:37

Japanese is pronounced exactly like it looks.

(with an American accent)
a = ah
i = ee
u = oo
e = between 'eh' and 'ay'
o = oh

Just add the consonants behind them, which are more or less pronounced like they are in English except the 'k' group, which is made further back in the mouth, and 'fu,' which is made just like in English except you don't touch your front teeth to your bottom lip. The 'r' group is a whole different animal, and I still haven't found a way to describe the sound in English except that it kinda sorta sounds like a mix between 'r,' 'l,' and 'd.'

Just listen to anime or Japanese music and you'll get pronunciation pretty quickly. It's one of the easiest aspects of the language for foreigners.

WanderingKnight

2007-05-05, 22:50

The 'r' group is a whole different animal, and I still haven't found a way to describe the sound in English except that it kinda sorta sounds like a mix between 'r,' 'l,' and 'd.'

I'm always amazed by the hard time English language natives have with the Japanese 'r' :D

It's much easier in Spanish (and in lots of other languages for that matter), since the 'r's in both languages are practically identical :p

FatPianoBoy

2007-05-05, 22:56

I'm always amazed by the hard time English language natives have with the Japanese 'r' :D

It's much easier in Spanish (and in lots of other languages for that matter), since the 'r's in both languages are practically identical :p

That's because our 'r's growl instead of flap ;)

Spanish 'r's are a bit different than Japanese 'r's. I took Spanish in high school, and had no trouble with it. Japanese 'r's took a little bit of coaching from some native friends to get down properly.

WanderingKnight

2007-05-05, 23:25

Spanish 'r's are a bit different than Japanese 'r's. I took Spanish in high school, and had no trouble with it. Japanese 'r's took a little bit of coaching from some native friends to get down properly.

Actually I never had any trouble, and if you give anyone a piece of romanized Japanese over here they'll mostly pronounce the r's perfectly. Maybe it's because of our regional variant of the Spanish pronunciation, who knows. Though technically their r's are a bit softer, so maybe it's that. I insist, however, for me there's almost no difference.

Kyuusai

2007-05-05, 23:35

They are SLIGHTLY different, but the typical Japanese pronunciation of their 'r' is inconsistent to the point where many cannot hear the difference between 'r' and 'l'.

In short, you're quite safe with a Spanish 'r'. I don't even bother explaining the difference to people when I describe Japanese pronunciation. :) I've found that most people who start with the "hard" Spanish 'r' soften it to (or at least near to) the typical Japanese pronunciation after hearing spoken.

Hey, look at the line of Akira avatars. :D

WanderingKnight

2007-05-06, 00:06

They are SLIGHTLY different, but the typical Japanese pronunciation of their 'r' is inconsistent to the point where many cannot hear the difference between 'r' and 'l'.

I wouldn't go that far. It's not that they can't notice the difference, but they can't associate it with any other sound. For example, English's 'r' is quite unique, and if we went as far as to separate it and form another letter out of it (and thus dropping the 'r' letter from the English alphabet), whenever an English native hears a foreign 'r' sound (for example, a Spanish one), s/he'd notice the different pronunciation, but would nevertheless associate it with the new letter we created, write it as such, and pronounce it as such. Of course, this is all assuming the person never had any contact with the universal 'r' letter.

Hey, look at the line of Akira avatars.

Adding another one for the count :D

ShikaShika

2007-05-06, 01:00

Must the three of you have like near identical avatars? It's so confusing. :p

Japanese is pronounced exactly like it looks.

(with an American accent)
a = ah
i = ee
u = oo
e = between 'eh' and 'ay'
o = oh

If you're Swedish, it's actually pronounced exactlylike it looks. :p

I.e.

a = a
i = i
u = u
e = e
o = o

Also, on the subjuct of the Japanese r, I never really bothered to pronounce it any differently than i would a "Swedish" r. I dunno if I sound like an idiot, but I've never ever been corrected, not even by my (native) Japanese teachers. :|

KeiKei-chan

2007-05-06, 01:04

Does anyone know what does Kimiwo kimiwo shitte sekaiwa kirameite means?

ShikaShika

2007-05-06, 01:10

The grammar looks a bit weird to me (is it prose or something?), but I'd guess it'd mean something like, "the world you live in is sparkeling". Litteraly, "the world that knows you", with "you" repeated once. Anyone please feel free to correct me, I'm far from certain. :)

Syaoran

2007-05-06, 02:59

WanderingKnight

2007-05-06, 03:11

Does anyone know what does Kimiwo kimiwo shitte sekaiwa kirameite means?

It'd be easier if you could provide the non-romanized Japanese version (with kanji).

Even so, since it ends with a verb in te-kei, I get the feeling that phrase doesn't end there, or there is a context you're not giving us. If you could provide the entire 'whatever' you got it from, it'd be much easier. Otherwise I'm at a loss.

Crovax

2007-05-06, 07:27

You've gotta be Dutch/Flemish for easily reproducing Japanese sounds :3
It not for nothing that they used to say "If you put a Flemish person in a box and bring him to a far away country, he'll speak the language soon."

The first Japanese dictionary was made by the Dutch residing on Deshima ;)

Well, romanized stuff is pretty easy to read for Dutchies like me I suppose. Since the vowels that were used, basically match the Dutch pronunciation of those vowels. Still, we do have an extremely hard/rough 'r' that would kill the throat/tongue of the average English speaker trying to pronounce it, let alone a Japanese person, heh. And how to handle consecutive vowels is also kinda different.

Personally, I learned how to pronounce romaji by singing along with songs a lot. Just get the mp3s for the OP/ED of your favourite show at any one time and grab the lyrics (or for extra listening practice, transcribe them yourself and check with official lyrics afterwards) and sing along with the song till you know it by heart. Most of the popular songs will work, just don't do KOTOKO's princess bride or something similarly insane. :)

Oh, and I would suggest a form of revised Hepburn, that's just my personal preference though. The main differences between this and other common forms of (Hepburn) romanization are:

- Long vowels are spelled out, syllable by syllable. ookii, otousan, juubei-chan etc.
- ji + (ya) = ja (rather than jya)
- syllables are not written differently unless they are in kana as well
- o + u = ou (rather than oh)
- se + n + pa + i = senpai (rather than sempai

Well, your quite welcome/free to use what you like, but I feel this makes more sense for anyone who intends to learn/use kana at any point.

Back to pronunciation, for Dutchies it's pretty straightforward as mentioned before. For Americans though, this is a reasonably good and easy-to-remember sentence to use:

"Father's elite attitude gets old."

Mueti

2007-05-06, 07:45

Oh, and I would suggest a form of revised Hepburn, that's just my personal preference though. The main differences between this and other common forms of (Hepburn) romanization are:

- Long vowels are spelled out, syllable by syllable. ookii, otousan, juubei-chan etc.
- ji + (ya) = ja (rather than jya)
- syllables are not written differently unless they are in kana as well
- o + u = ou (rather than oh)
- se + n + pa + i = senpai (rather than sempai

Well, your quite welcome/free to use what you like, but I feel this makes more sense for anyone who intends to learn/use kana at any point.

If romanization is unavoidable, I also prefer it that way since that's how you type it in Japanese. The ô kind of romanization is something I especially despise, on top of my general dislike of romaji. ^^

Pronounciation isn't all that big of a deal for me, both the sounds of vowels and consonants in German are very close to Japanese.

x_edward_elric_x

2007-05-06, 08:38

I have a Japanese dictonary but my sister keeps stealing it. I got it back off her now

deathreape98

2007-05-07, 06:18

Aoie_Emesai

2007-05-07, 13:52

Didn't really check the thread. But which of you have tried Rosetta Stone for Japanese? How do you think of it? Good, bad, terrible?

Syaoran

2007-05-07, 14:14

Brrrr... Rossette Stone... It's only useful for pronunciation, but zero for grammar and kanji -_-

Vexx

2007-05-08, 00:47

Agreed. It is one of the better packages... but mostly useful for vocabulary and pronunciation. I went with it after a bad experience with Power Japanese (bleh)... .but I spent a long time on words rather than grammar or syntax. One class and I'd pretty much left it behind.

samurai666

2007-05-09, 00:36

I haven't been following this thread but allow me to ask a question that's been bothering me for quite a while.

Why is the particle は (ha) used in place of わ (wa) in sentences.

FatPianoBoy

2007-05-09, 00:53

I haven't been following this thread but allow me to ask a question that's been bothering me for quite a while.

Why is the particle は (ha) used in place of わ (wa) in sentences.

Short version:
In old Japanese, the singular vowels, 'h' group, and 'w' group were pronounced very similarly. 'He' is also pronounced 'e' when used as a particle because of this. Even after the language reforms in 1945, these irregularities were kept - presumably to avoid confusion when reading classical literature.

deathreape98

2007-05-16, 04:46

im not done learning hiragana yet, i know roughly around 36 characters, but while learning the diffrent styles, should i also be learning japanese words? i know roughly around 20-30 japanese words

Crovax

2007-05-16, 05:12

Hrmmm, long way to go. However... the same goes for me. ;-)

I would suggest using this site for learning hiragana:
http://tsunamichan.phpwebhosting.com/japanese/

It's kinda pathetic, being motivated by such means, lol... but I did learn to read them reasonably well within one afternoon, using that. =P (No kidding, hehe...)

As for learning words, learn reading hiragana first, shouldnt take more than a week. Then find some trivia/vocabulary training bot which uses kanji with furigana preferably. And start stuffing that head.

Realize however that just learning the phonetic script and a bunch of words won't do too much. In the end, it's just a crutch to get you started, you won't really learn until you try using the language. Try to transcribe JPop when you want to sing along rather than going to a lyrics site, read momotarou perhaps? (Very simple language, only uses 1st grade kanji, can be found online) And remember to always, always, always, look up words. (JDIC is your friend.) Of course you'll realize that what "mochiron, daijoubu and masaka" mean by watching lots of anime and noticing the context they are used in + the subs. "mendoukusai, shitagi and warau" are probably harder and those are still relatively obvious in anime. Most words are simply not used in such obvious places in the sentence and context. Memorizing a bunch of words can certainly help in those places and boost your confidence, but it still doesn't teach you how to use the words and the language. Try to keep that in mind; to be quite frank, I need to as well. =p

mimi_girl

2007-05-16, 21:02

I have a question. Whats the difference between hiragana and katakana (for understanding it)? And how do I use the word "daisuki!" in a sentence to someone?

Sorry if I'm not clear enought :( .

WanderingKnight

2007-05-16, 21:18

As a general rule, hiragana is used to write native Japanese words, whereas katakana is used normally to write adapted foreign words. So you'll see words like "chocolate" (チョコレート, pronounced "chokoreehto") written in katakana, while regular Japanese words are written in hiragana. But many times, katakana is used to highlight a word (like capital letters), more specifically in manga/games, even when the word has a perfectly regular way of writing it via kanji/hiragana.

And the word "daisuki!" (大好き) is an adjectivized verb, but it is used in a not very regular way for adjectives. To put it simply, when you say you really like someone, you say "person X is daisuki (for me)". I don't know if that was clear or not. Don't worry if you don't understand it at first, since the differences between the particles "wa" and "ga" are some of the subtlest for western foreigners. If you're directly addressing the person in question, a simple "daisuki" should suffice, though maybe you want to add "anata ga daisuki". The full phrase would be "watashi wa anata ga daisuki desu", but it's not common in informal speech to put in the phrase whatever may be implied by the context.

Spectacular_Insanity

2007-05-16, 21:34

WanderingKnight

2007-05-16, 21:41

^ Also, to add a little something to what WanderingKnight said, katakana is used on things like billboards and announcement-type things like that. I don't know why, but I've seen them in both photos and anime before.

Because it serves the purpose of highlighting a word. It's almost comparable to fully capitalizing a word.

jaziek

2007-05-17, 16:39

Hrmmm, long way to go. However... the same goes for me. ;-)

I would suggest using this site for learning hiragana:
http://tsunamichan.phpwebhosting.com/japanese/

that is just WIN!

tbh i couldnt be bothered to actually learn them properly cos its late.. so i prtscrn and stuck a copy of the symbols in paint.. just to get thru and see what happened.. thats an incredibly good tool though.. proper motivation

Crovax

2007-05-18, 07:44

You know, I too wrote them down or something. And cheated my way through them as well to get to the end, lol. But after a few times, I realized I didn't need to look at my 'cheatsheet' anymore for the answers to those first 10, lol. =P That's when I realized how easily it is learned. =P

Mueti

2007-05-18, 07:54

Reading is a whole lot easier than writing the symbols though. This applies all the more for kanji. oO

Angel Wings

2007-05-18, 08:03

hehe i wrote evrything down aswell

Crovax

2007-05-18, 16:15

Reading is a whole lot easier than writing the symbols though. This applies all the more for kanji. oO

So true, took much longer to learn that. (For the kana that is.)

As for kanji... the writing you get used to, the thing is being able to call them forth, to mind that is. Being able to recognize it upon presentation is one thing, being able to remember it... -_- quite another.

WanderingKnight

2007-05-18, 21:08

As for kanji... the writing you get used to, the thing is being able to call them forth, to mind that is. Being able to recognize it upon presentation is one thing, being able to remember it... -_- quite another.

Yeah, I get this a lot. It's just so tough trying to remember which radicals were in which section of the kanji... agh, I get tired just from thinking about it.

Syaoran

2007-05-19, 16:41

Something a little different ^^

How many people here have a PDA and how many of them are pissed that it's damn hard to make it able to use Japanese?

Well ... for the people having a Pocket PC 2003SE (and 5.0), the moment of relief has come :D

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9209/capturedj7.th.png (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capturedj7.png)
Screenshot taken with a Loox720

And the way to get it all running is explained here (http://forum.brighthand.com/showthread.php?t=171045&highlight=japanese+pocket+pc).

For input method I installed ComPoBox (http://www.ab.cyberhome.ne.jp/%7Ea-karasawa/SoftWare/ComPOBox.htm) which is free, while ATOK is commercial software. Also, Japanese Input (http://www.ookii.org/software/japaneseinput/) is quite cool as well, but it doesn't support kana to kanji convertion (or I didn't find out how to do it ^^' ). I installed it so I can write kanji with the stylus. Stroke order is very important for good recognition :p

There's also a very useful dictionary (http://www.ookii.org/software/pocketdictionary/) using Jim Breen's EDICT data.

If you're going to give it a try, don't forget to backup your PDA, because updating the registry wrongly or using the wrong wince.nls file renders your PDA unusable and you'll be forced to do a hard reset.

Japanese support itself comes in 3 parts:
- MS Gothic (2000/XP) or Meiryo (Vista) font
- Japanese wince.nls
- registry key to import

If you're happy with reading only, you'll be done at this point ^^
The rest is additional stuff. But hey, check out the links for the full details :)

I hope this will be usefull for a few people here.

mishka

2007-06-01, 01:02

Risaa

2007-06-01, 01:14

Would I learn Japanese if I took a college course on the subject? I watch anime and I'm interested in learning a new language...I don't need a foreign language course, but I thought I should take the class for fun/learning...do you think it'd be waste of time, or would I actually learn?

Depends on the school, teacher, how good of a student you are, etc. :) Hmm, but seriously... a first-semester Japanese course would only teach you the basics. I've taken three semesters (so I've passed third-semester Japanese) and I could hold a decent conversation, but I'm still... ehh, not confident. (If you're a diligent student, you'll come out much better than I am. :heh: ) I think that holds true for most if not all languages though, that the first semester covers the basics and isn't really enough for you to really get into it.

Personally I think Japanese is easy - much easier than say French (which totally killed me), but I've also once been fluent in Korean, which is a bit similar in grammatical structure and how honoriffics go...

Oh, and female Japanese teachers tend to be quite cute, if that influences your decision at all. :p

Vexx

2007-06-01, 02:55

mishka

2007-06-01, 04:11

Mishka: I recommend you take a look and see if your community college offers non-credit "conversational japanese" courses and "reading japanese" courses. Those will jumpstart you a lot faster than JP 101, 102, 201, 202.

I agree with Risaa: I find japanese much easier to speak than, say, German or Russian. On the other hand, the counter words are pure evil. :)

After you have those under your belt, then go get credit courses if you like (you may decide to major in linguistics or asian studies by then).

I already have a major, Biological Science. If i take Japanese, it'd just be for fun and personal interest. The community college idea sounds good actually...I go to a UC and we're on quarter system, and it'd be kindda hectic to through Japanese in with all my other courses. Semester system is much easier to handle when it comes to taking a foreign language...I'd probably take it over the summer.

Risaa

2007-06-01, 12:56

Yeah... the counters are evil. :heh: It's the same in Korean, too... never learned those though. I only know about 5 different counter words in Japanese... Rinko-san sent me a "song" they use to help Japanese tots remember.

1pon demo ninjin(carrot)
2soku demo sandal(sandals)
3sou demo yotto(yacht)
4tubu demo gomashio(sesami salt)
5dai demo roketto (rocket)
6wa demo shichimencho (Turkey)
7shiki demo hachi(Bee)
8tou demo kujira(Whoale)
9hai demo juice
10ko demo ichigo(strawberry)XD

UC... *__* (Jeez, if I hadn't been so lazy about writing a silly essay, I would've been able to attend a UC school too.) But anyways... if it's set up like State, 101 would be 5 units ne. If you take a course at a community college, or find time to study Japanese outside of school, I recommend that you take the 101 class afterwards. 5 units of A will raise your GPA to the moon. :)

(Not familiar with the quartar system though... many of my collegy friends are on it and it drives me nuts trying to figure out their schedules. :heh: )

Mueti

2007-06-01, 15:52

So far I've been avoiding the counters on purpose. And I don't plan on changing that anytime soon.^^ I do write it on my kanji-cards, if that kanji is also some counter...but I don't really memorize it, I wouldn't know more than about 2 right now (apart from 日,月 and 年 that is). :heh:

raikage

2007-06-02, 16:19

Would I learn Japanese if I took a college course on the subject? I watch anime and I'm interested in learning a new language...I don't need a foreign language course, but I thought I should take the class for fun/learning...do you think it'd be waste of time, or would I actually learn?

I would sure hope that if you took a Japanese course, you'd come out of it knowing some Japanese. :p

But it depends on what you consider "knowing Japanese" -- after a standard first-semester class, you'll know how to read hiragana, katakana, some kanji, and have a fairly small vocabulary. If your aim is in it to be able to watch raw Japanese anime -- well, it took me four semesters before I felt somewhat comfortable, and even then I was still only really catching maybe a little over half of what was being said at that pace.

If you're in it to someday visit Japan, then I'd say 1-2 semesters is adequate -- you won't be able to talk about economics or the geopolitical structure of Japan, but you will be able to get around and order food and ask for directions.

Abbott

2007-06-03, 00:57

I did a year of Japanese in the UK, and the speaking element of it was pretty useless. Nobody speaks in the formal language that you get taught in the classes (though US classes could be different, I'm just speaking from my experience), and most people speak with some sort of dialect.

I live in Ibaraki, which is well known for it's accent and dialect. I've basically had to start again. But for watching things like anime or playing Japanese games, Japanese language courses are useful enough. Just don't expect to be able to hold very good conversation with real Japanese people, especially once you get out of Tokyo.

Vexx

2007-06-03, 04:46

Heck.. even Japanese people have that problem. My teacher's background is a mix of Yokohama and Tokyo... when she goes too far north or south she has no idea what they're saying half the time. Even the Kansai-ben throws her off unless she's listening carefully.

Its not only an accent difference but word and case differences.
A fair parallel might be drawn between someone in upper crust British society (business Japanese) and Cockney with all its slang rhyme puns (kansai or others).

Heckfire :) my wife (who was raised in Texas) sometimes has to translate Northwestern Pacific-ese to the poor folks in her company's call center down in Mississippi because they can't understand the other people she works with.