Learning Japanese

[aohige]

How many Kanji do I have to know to read properly? I probably know the meaning of about 40 kanji, really basic stuff like ten(sky or heaven I guess), ai(love), and haku(white)

In order for you to be able to read an average literature, magazine, or newspaper, you need to be able to read around 3000 kanji used in every day life.
Which is the same as second-class rating in the kanken (national kanji recoginition exam) testing.
An average Japanese is around this level.

First-class rating, which is said to be ideal for those who study literacy in universities, requires knowledge of up to 6000 kanji.

[Terrestrial Dream]

In order for you to be able to read an average literature, magazine, or newspaper, you need to be able to read around 3000 kanji used in every day life.
Which is the same as second-class rating in the kanken (national kanji recoginition exam) testing.
An average Japanese is around this level.

First-class rating, which is said to be ideal for those who study literacy in universities, requires knowledge of up to 6000 kanji. That seems pretty overkill, but not that surprising. I could probably learn 3000 maybe in 7 year or so if I study right now.

[Ledgem]

ん!!!

Is there any way of knowing when ん　is silent/nasalized like in 本　(ほん), ごきげんよう, 金曜日　(きんようび), and 千円　(せんえん)?
I've heard　ん is always pronounced as 'm' when a 'b' or 'p' come after it. Is there a rule like that for when ん　is silent? Or do you just have to memorize special cases?
It's never really silent, but nasalized... I guess speaking preference. As you get more comfortable with the language and speak faster, it'll naturally occur.

Hey how come my hiragana symbols aren't showing up? Grr.
Are you using a browser that supports Japanese, and the encoding is either set to Unicode or Autoselect? (I just checked, for some reason mine is in Japanese Autodetection mode... I never set that.) That'd be the most likely reason.

In order for you to be able to read an average literature, magazine, or newspaper, you need to be able to read around 3000 kanji used in every day life.
What one of my instructors had told us is that we'd need to know 1,500 (or perhaps 2,000, can't remember clearly) kanji to be able to read a newspaper (of course, there'd be holes in our understanding and reading ability there). According to the Japan Foundation's Japanese Language Proficiency Test, Level 1, which is considered sufficient for living in Japan, requires around 2000 (or 1,926 to be exact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Language_Proficiency_Test)).

Further, a Chinese teacher who is the instructor for my calligraphy class claimed that people in China only need to know about 3,000 characters to get by (my girlfriend has had him as a Mandarin instructor and claims that he likes to make Chinese seem easier than it really is, in an effort to get more people to take it - she suspects that 3,000 is a low estimate). I'd imagine that Japanese require less Chinese characters than the Chinese. I believe you're more knowledgable about this than I am, aohige, but I did find the disparities in the numbers that we've heard to be rather interesting.

[SSJiffy]

What's the difference in saying 'I am hungry' between 'onaka ga suita' and 'onaka ga suite imasu'?

[iamtetsuo]

Are you using a browser that supports Japanese, and the encoding is either set to Unicode or Autoselect? (I just checked, for some reason mine is in Japanese Autodetection mode... I never set that.) That'd be the most likely reason.


Yah my browser supports Japanese (I can see everyone elses hiragana). Lets see if switching to unicode works:


あいうえお

Hmm that was odd, but I got it to work.

[darksider]

What's the difference in saying 'I am hungry' between 'onaka ga suita' and 'onaka ga suite imasu'?

That's a very difficult question!
Well...

お腹がすいた onaka ga suita
（お腹がすきました） onaka ga suki mashita - (polite language)
お腹がすいています onaka ga suite imasu (polite language, probably)

Ah, I think, let's see, aside from whether they are polite language or not, the latter one describes the current condition, and the former one refers to the transition presently going on... or no, not just presently, sorta 'present perfect progressive' thing. Like, say, the latter one is "I've been (and still am) hungry" and the former one should be like "I'm getting hungry" or something.
Well... I think I don't understand much what I just wrote...

[aohige]

What one of my instructors had told us is that we'd need to know 1,500 (or perhaps 2,000, can't remember clearly) kanji to be able to read a newspaper (of course, there'd be holes in our understanding and reading ability there). According to the Japan Foundation's Japanese Language Proficiency Test, Level 1, which is considered sufficient for living in Japan, requires around 2000 (or 1,926 to be exact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Language_Proficiency_Test)).

Further, a Chinese teacher who is the instructor for my calligraphy class claimed that people in China only need to know about 3,000 characters to get by (my girlfriend has had him as a Mandarin instructor and claims that he likes to make Chinese seem easier than it really is, in an effort to get more people to take it - she suspects that 3,000 is a low estimate). I'd imagine that Japanese require less Chinese characters than the Chinese. I believe you're more knowledgable about this than I am, aohige, but I did find the disparities in the numbers that we've heard to be rather interesting.

Well, the diffrence is that I went to a Japanese school, whereas you went to learn Japanese as a secondary language.
The standard they expect you to meet is going to be vastly diffrent.
Of course you can get by every day life with half the understanding of kanji of an average Japanese, just as you would in any country.
But the educational standard suggested for a native is not the same, of course.
2000+ is average for a highschool grad, who never went to a college or university.

The national kanji recognition test shows the following ranking.
1st level: 6000+ (highly educated adult)
pre-1st level: 3000 (An average educated Japanese with colledge degree generally falls under here), 80%+ correct answers
2nd level: approx 2000~3000 (An average highschool graduate), around 80% correct
pre-2nd level: 70% correct
3rd level: 1600, 70% correct (An average 2nd grade junior high. 14th grade)

And so on.
As you can see, what your teacher is expecting from you is to get to highschool level of understanding, not necessary college.
Which is pretty logical to me, considering that it's a secondary language and not a native. Your teacher isn't incorrect, don't worry. :)

That being said, I'm most likely in the kanken 2nd class level, probably around 2500-2800.
I was never a good student in kokugo. :heh:

On a related note, one of the biggest modern day problem is the ability to read the kanji, but not being able to write them anymore.
I seriously doubt I can write half of what I can read anymore. This recent problem is largely due to relying on the computer typing to help out spelling, and in this day and age... I hardly ever have to manually write most of the kanji anymore.

[WanderingKnight]

On a related note, one of the biggest modern day problem is the ability to read the kanji, but not being able to write them anymore.

I've found that to be a huge problem when learning, too. Luckily in the Nihongo Nouryoku Shiken you don't need to write anything :D

[Vexx]

That's a very difficult question!
Well...

お腹がすいた onaka ga suita
（お腹がすきました） onaka ga suki mashita - (polite language)
お腹がすいています onaka ga suite imasu (polite language, probably)

Ah, I think, let's see, aside from whether they are polite language or not, the latter one describes the current condition, and the former one refers to the transition presently going on... or no, not just presently, sorta 'present perfect progressive' thing. Like, say, the latter one is "I've been (and still am) hungry" and the former one should be like "I'm getting hungry" or something.
Well... I think I don't understand much what I just wrote...

You got it pretty much right. The first utilizes a "casual verb ending" for the -te form with existence (imasu). The third is more formal. The second one .... well, mashita is "past tense" so I'll call it "past towards the present".

Just be sure and smile a lot while rubbing your stomach :)

[Autumn Demon]

How would you write the name Tohsaka (as in Tohsaka Rin from Fate/Stay Night) in hiragana?

This romanization seems odd to me because I thought you could only have H's if they were followed by a vowel:
は ha
ひ hi
ふ hu/fu
へ he
ほ ho

Could 'toh' perhaps be 'too' or 'tou'?

[Nagato]

^ Yup her name is 遠坂凛 (とおさか　りん/Toosaka Rin). But Tohsaka as in Ohno(大野), etc is pretty common especially for name. can't recall about the name of this romanization system atm; just google "Japanese romanization".

[SSJiffy]

Doing a presentation of myself in Japanese 4, here's what I've got so far:

私はディアス　ラウルと言います。十月に二十さいです。出身はアメリカのカリフォルニアです。メキシコ人で す。せんこうはLALSてす。日本語の勉強はカリフォルニア大学サンタクルーズで一年前にはじめました。し ゅみはサンタクルーズで三百メータまで海てす。マトさんとコリさんとロハンさんとルーミングを しています。

What I'm trying to say in Japanese, in English:

I'm called Raul Diaz. In October I'll be 20 years old. I come from California, US. I'm Mexican. My major is Latin American Latino Studies (LALS). I began studying Japanese a year ago at the University of California Santa Cruz. My residence is in Santa Cruz, 300 meters from the beach.

Any corrections or suggestions are welcome. :D

[darksider]

Doing a presentation of myself in Japanese 4, here's what I've got so far:

私はディアス　ラウルと言います。十月に二十さいです。出身はアメリカのカリフォルニアです。メキシコ人で す。せんこうはLALSてす。日本語の勉強はカリフォルニア大学サンタクルーズで一年前にはじめました。し ゅみはサンタクルーズで三百メータまで海てす。マトさんとコリさんとロハンさんとルーミングを しています。

What I'm trying to say in Japanese, in English:

I'm called Raul Diaz. In October I'll be 20 years old. I come from California, US. I'm Mexican. My major is Latin American Latino Studies (LALS). I began studying Japanese a year ago at the University of California Santa Cruz. My residence is in Santa Cruz, 300 meters from the beach.

Any corrections or suggestions are welcome. :D

Corrections... hmm....

私はディアス・ラウルと言います。十月で二十歳(さい)になります。出身はアメリカのカリフォルニアです。 メキシコ人です。専攻(せんこう)はLALSです。日本語の勉強はカリフォルニア大学サンタクルーズ校(こ う)で一年前にはじめました。私の住居(じゅうきょ)はサンタクルーズで、海まで三百メーターのところです 。
(And the last sentence is missing in the original English)

Like this?

And you can use Arabic numerals in a Japanese sentence if it is written horizontally. Like "10月で20歳になります。"

[Ledgem]

Going to sleep soon so I didn't read through the entire thing, but my preference is to, rather than use と言います when giving your name, to use と申します. 言う is not technically wrong, but 申す is better in formal situations, and perhaps overall, from my understanding.

[darksider]

Going to sleep soon so I didn't read through the entire thing, but my preference is to, rather than use と言います when giving your name, to use と申します. 言う is not technically wrong, but 申す is better in formal situations, and perhaps overall, from my understanding.

I'd say that's too formal (or, too classic) and it may sound unnatural, so I wouldn't use that phrase unless I really have to show respect for something.

EDIT: I think that saying "私は○○と言います" insted of "○○です" is polite enough in most cases, although it may not be enough at a job interview or something like that.

[SSJiffy]

Ok. Earlier this evening my roommate greeted me when he returned home from school with an ohayou. I went on to say "Asa ja nai. Ima, konya （今夜) desu. 'konban wa' to iimasu." Did I properly state the error and correct what he should of said?

[Vexx]

mmmmmmm, close enough. He should have said 'kombanwa' and "not morning, is night" I think is passable. The last line doesn't sound right to me but I'm too unconscious to think of a better way.
Often what may seem to be fragmentary awkward japanese is actually just casual lazy japanese :)

[Nagato]

Ok. Earlier this evening my roommate greeted me when he returned home from school with an ohayou. I went on to say "Asa ja nai. Ima, konya （今夜) desu. 'konban wa' to iimasu." Did I properly state the error and correct what he should of said?
「おはよう」じゃありません。今は夜ですよ。だ　か　ら、「こんばんは」ですよ。夜はまだまだ長いですよ、 てへへ。
Like this?

はぁー、何やってんだ俺

[FatPianoBoy]

「おはよう」じゃありません。今は夜ですよ。だ　か　ら、「こんばんは」ですよ。夜はまだまだ長いですよ、 てへへ。
Like this?
... XD
That sounds like a woman from a renai game or something :heh:

[Vexx]

Japanese guy-talk is a bit more... actually, its a lot less ... with more growls.

[WanderingKnight]

Japanese guy-talk is a bit more... actually, its a lot less ... with more growls.てめえ...夜の癖に「おはよう」って言ったりしあがって...うっせんだよ、このクソ野郎 が！

:heh:

[Vexx]

I don't know the onomatopoeia for <coffeespew> ...

[Kyuusai]

てめえ...夜の癖に「おはよう」って言ったりしあがって...うっせんだよ、このクソ野郎が ！

:heh:

*nearly chokes*

Beautiful!

[boggart]

Okay, so I'm roughly 15 lessons into Pimsleur's audio lessons and realise, "Crap, I'm not going to be able to read!" I know my two kana systems, and with my background in Chinese, I can make out what some Kanji are and figure out what it is in Japanese... but my question is this:

Is it easier to learn how to read and write after learning to converse and understand?

[Risaa]

Is it easier to learn how to read and write after learning to converse and understand?
I'm probably not the best one to answer, but here are my two cents:

Yes, it is easier to learn to read and write after learning to speak *because it's easier learning to speak and comprehend*, not because speaking will aid you in writing. Being used to speaking may also cause you to automatically assume spellings of certain words which are wrong (nato for natto, satou or sato?). The only benefits I see would've come regardless whether you started with speaking or with writing - you've got some grammar and vocabulary.

I guess it's more about what your priorities are. Having no one to practice with, I chose to focus my time and energy into learning how to read and write... So while I'm OK at school work here, I'm the total baka gaijin when I have to go out and interact with the locals. If your goal is to read manga and converse in Japanese via e-mail, I recommend starting with reading and writing. And if your goal is to talk in Japanese with people, keep going with speaking. Eventually you should be able to reach both goals. :)

[Ledgem]

That's a difficult question. I started studying Japanese with some basic conversation knowledge, but I feel like much of it led me astray. That is, the way things sound would occasionally be taken for granted, but when you see it in writing, it suddenly made sense. As Risaa mentioned, it may mess up some of your spelling, but that's relatively easily fixable.

You're not doomed if you did it one way or the other, either way. I think it helps if you do both at the same time. I tried studying Japanese without the writing segment for a while, and my retention was very low. For me, at least, the writing reinforces the verbal in a very strong manner. But we are all different ;)

[FatPianoBoy]

I guess it's more about what your priorities are. Having no one to practice with, I chose to focus my time and energy into learning how to read and write... So while I'm OK at school work here, I'm the total baka gaijin when I have to go out and interact with the locals.
Sounds similar to me. When conversing, I usually have to mull over it for a second, but things click almost instantly when I see it in writing. I guess it's just a matter of which your studies focus on more.

[boggart]

Yeah, because when I studied Mandarin Chinese, I was learning everything as I went along... so there'd be dictation, conversation practice, calligraphy, character recognition etc etc. That's why now when I am doing these audio lessons, it seems a bit weird to me because I don't have the actual texts in front of me to practice with.

My main aim is to be able to speak and comprehend, so I guess this way is the best for me. However, I too don't have someone to practice with so it's a bit harder that way.

[poptart]

Yeah, because when I studied Mandarin Chinese, I was learning everything as I went along... so there'd be dictation, conversation practice, calligraphy, character recognition etc etc. That's why now when I am doing these audio lessons, it seems a bit weird to me because I don't have the actual texts in front of me to practice with.

My main aim is to be able to speak and comprehend, so I guess this way is the best for me. However, I too don't have someone to practice with so it's a bit harder that way.
maybe you could try to take the audio and make your own script.

it would strengthen your word recognition and increase vocabulary. plus it will help you to find context and object markers.

[Pell14]

I have this similar problem as well. I couldnt speak as well as i could write, read and listen =) There are times where i know the proper pronunication in my brain but somehow brain signals doesnt send well to my mouth output haha
Well that was pretty expected since i dont have anyone to talk to
I usually read light novels to boast my pola but furigana is kind of spoiling me hehe

[AnimeIsAwesome]

Im learning japanese but i cant seem to find where ur able to write japanese on the computer. so if anyone knos how do plz show or tell me.

[Autumn Demon]

Im learning japanese but i cant seem to find where ur able to write japanese on the computer. so if anyone knos how do plz show or tell me.
if you're on a pc:
control panel > regional and language options

[Risaa]

On a mac:

Apple > System Preferences > International > Input Menu > scroll down and tell it to install Japanese.

[WanderingKnight]

if you're on a pc:
control panel > regional and language options

This is just a minor correction, but I couldn't resist to add that PC != Windows. You should have said, "If you are on Windows...". It's minor, but it's important to understand the difference between OS and PC :p

[Marina]

On a mac:

Apple > System Preferences > International > Input Menu > scroll down and tell it to install Japanese.

Ahhh, thanks! This is useful since I just started my first year in Japanese.

[zetsumei]

Sounds similar to me. When conversing, I usually have to mull over it for a second, but things click almost instantly when I see it in writing. I guess it's just a matter of which your studies focus on more.


Speaking and listening is definitely the two hardest things to try to pick IMO, if you don't use it daily. I've been self-learning Japanese for about 4 months now and has picked up about 400 something Kanji, and can pick up and understand a little bit of the how things got translated now. So many words that have the same pronunciation but all have different meanings, hard for the brain to pick up right away if not use in daily conversation. Watching anime is a great way to pick up new stuff for me, especially from the OP/ED.

Irregular reading and meanings of combined Kanji is another problem. Some combined Kanji meanings just got me saying "How...what the..."

I saw the first episode of Bamboo Blade today and when the title and I saw 味「Ｔａｓｔｅ；　Ｅｘｐｅｒｉｅｎｃｅ」　+　方「Ｗａｙ　ｏｆ；　Ｐｅｒｓｏｎ；　Ｄｉｒｅｃｔｉｏｎ 」　and would have never guess 味方　was ally/friend. Unless those two Kanji has more definition I don't know about...

[i8o]

I saw the first episode of Bamboo Blade today and when the title and I saw 味「Ｔａｓｔｅ；　Ｅｘｐｅｒｉｅｎｃｅ」　+　方「Ｗａｙ　ｏｆ；　Ｐｅｒｓｏｎ；　Ｄｉｒｅｃｔｉｏｎ 」　and would have never guess 味方　was ally/friend. Unless those two Kanji has more definition I don't know about...

味方 is replaced Kanji that was not considered of meaning.
味方 is 御方 originally.

味方 = 御方 = mikata = mi(prefix of respect) + kata(side)

[SSJiffy]

いわう = to celebrate

iwatte okimasu = to celebrate in advance.

Am I right?

As in, Atashi wa hatachi ni narimasu, iwatte okimasu.

[shadow-of-sin]

いわう = to celebrate

iwatte okimasu = to celebrate in advance.

Am I right?

As in, Atashi wa hatachi ni narimasu, iwatte okimasu.

Yes that's right.

Just a small tip: if you want to see if some sentence is right (especially to see if the context is correct) try searching google with the phrase (remember the inverted commas). So for example when you search for ”祝っておく”,”誕生日”, one of the sentences that comes up is:
相方が誕生日なので祝っておく
(this is one of the times where Rikaichan is very useful)

[Onakra]

Atashi wa hatachi ni narimasu, iwatte okimasu.

Just noting that "atashi" is only used by females.

And it might be just me, but this seems to "flow" a bit better.
"watashi ha hatachi ni naru no de iwatte okimasu"

[SSJiffy]

Just noting that "atashi" is only used by females.

And it might be just me, but this seems to "flow" a bit better.
"watashi ha hatachi ni naru no de iwatte okimasu"

I know, but I was rushing to post and fly out the door for a 夜食. Thanks. :p

[The Chaos]

are u learning how to speak o how to wright ?
if it how to speak I want to learn , too :help:

[HentaiEqualsGod]

HentaiEqualsGod desu yo.

dozo yoroshiku, onegai shimasu!

(i know only a very little bit of spoken Japanese, but I am trying to learn more. The characters give me an impossibly hard time... but I'm trying!)

[SSJiffy]

HentaiEqualsGod desu yo.

dozo yoroshiku, onegai shimasu!

(i know only a very little bit of spoken Japanese, but I am trying to learn more. The characters give me an impossibly hard time... but I'm trying!)

That looks good enough to me. A slight fix though, 'dozo' is romanized as 'douzo'. And when I was taught to introduce myself in Japanese 1 I was told to use the following format:

Hajimemashite, Watashi no namae Wa Diasu Rauru Desu. Douzo Yoroshiku.

Now that I'm in Japanese 4 subtle changes have been made which I'll italicize for you to see:

Hajimemashite, Watashi wa Diasu Rauru to iimasu. Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

Firstly the 'no namae' part by Watashi was dropped, then 'desu' was replaced by 'to iimasu' (called/known as) and the 'Douzo Yoroshiku' was modified but this and that form are both good.

[SSJiffy]

Hey there, I've been practicing several new grammar forms and have created some sentences of which may need revision.

二階建て子供のへやにステレオを動かして直いて下さい。
Meaning: Please take and place the stereo in the upstairs (2nd story) kids room.

Are both このみ先生にペンをいただきました。and このみ先生にペンを下さいました。correct?

Does　彼女に上げた。mean "I gave it to her" with sexual connotations attached or is it acceptable to use it?

Are 花に水をやった。and 水を花にやった。 both correct ways of saying "I have water to the flowers."?

日本語が少しずつわかってきました。
Meaning: I came to learn Japanese gradually.

りんごとオレンジが三つずつほしいです。
Meaning: I want three of each apple and orange.

チーズケーキを食べてほしいためにキッチンへ行きました。
Meaning: Because I wanted to eat cheesecake, I went to the kitchen.

これは日本語を勉強するためのきょかしょです。
Meaning: This textbook is for studying Japanese.

雨が降るでしょうので、学校へ行って置きます。
Meaning: It was probably going to rain so I left to school in advance.

おみやげを買ってもいいでしょうか。
Meaning: Is it alright even if I buy souvenirs?

飲んだり、カメラを使ったり、派したりしないで下さい。
Meaning: Please don't drink, use a camera, or run. In that construction, I didn't know how to say 'take pictures' so I resorted to 'using a camera'.

とてもお水は飲んだほうがいいです。
Meaning: It's better for you to drink a lot of water.

[shadow-of-sin]

Does　彼女に上げた。mean "I gave it to her" with sexual connotations attached or is it acceptable to use it?
lol...no it doesn't have sexual connotations

チーズケーキを食べてほしいためにキッチンへ行きました。
Meaning: Because I wanted to eat cheesecake, I went to the kitchen.

Hmm...I think this is wrong as when using ため to mean because, the clause before it must not be under your control (an example of correct use: 台風がやってきたために- because a typhoon came)

これは日本語を勉強するためのきょかしょです。
Meaning: This textbook is for studying Japanese.
textbook=きょうかしょ

雨が降るでしょうので、学校へ行って置きます。
Meaning: It was probably going to rain so I left to school in advance.
Should be: 置きました . Also while 振るでしょう is correct, people usually say: 雨が降りそうなので

飲んだり、カメラを使ったり、派したりしないで下さい。
Meaning: Please don't drink, use a camera, or run. In that construction, I didn't know how to say 'take pictures' so I resorted to 'using a camera'.
The correct kanji for run is: 走る. Also, to take pictures is: 写真を撮ったり

とてもお水は飲んだほうがいいです。
Meaning: It's better for you to drink a lot of water.
Sounds　weird to me, I would say:
水をたっぷり飲んだほうがいい　(You should drink plenty of water). Also note: don't use this when giving a light suggestion (this structure is for giving a strong suggestion, so a good translation of it is: "You had better..."). If you want to suggest something without coming across as rude use: ”たらいい” or ”たらどう？”

[Nagato]

このみ先生にペンを下さいました。

Correct me if I'm wrong since I don't quite use polite language my self.
But it sounds weird to me. I think it sould be, このみ先生がペンを下さいました。下さる is the polite word for くれる, like いただく for もらう.

二階建て子供のへやにステレオを動かして直いて下さい。

I can't recognize this word:　直いて
Do you mean
二階建ての子供の部屋にステレオを移しておいて下さい。

チーズケーキを食べてほしいためにキッチンへ行きました。
makes me laugh, cuz it reminds me of my friend used it that way
You use ～「て」ほしい when you want someone do something (for your sake, her/his, or others).
In your case here, you can use ～たい form
チーズケーキを食べたいのでキッチンへ行きました
or If チーズケーキ is that rare or hard for you to get, you can use ため　:heh:
チーズケーキを食べたいがために(私は幾千の障害を乗り越えて）キッチンへ行きました

[Edit]舐めてほしいの
ええ？じゃ、それ脱いで
いや、だからAくんのを～
:heh::heh:


飲んだり、カメラを使ったり、派したりしないで下さい。
Typo ^_^

とてもお水は飲んだほうがいいです。
水は十分飲んだ方がいいです。

[shadow-of-sin]

Correct me if I'm wrong since I don't quite use polite language my self.
But it sounds weird to me. I think it sould be, このみ先生がペンを下さいました。下さる is the polite word for くれる, like いただく for もらう.
Ugh...my bad. Yeah this is correct...

[Vexx]

＠H.E.G.: The advantage of that form of Hepburn romaji is that it doesn't require all the diacritical marks that can make typing unpleasant -- instead using "ou" and "shi""sha" and so on. A quick Google or trip to the bookstore for a *recent* introduction to japanese or their phonetic kana will standardize your spelling of japanese words. "dozo" is a poorer approximation than "douzo" (どうぞ） though one should always remember that ANY written version of a word in any language is an APPROXIMATION of the way it is pronounced and often laden with historical debris --- like "Knight".... you don't say "k-nig-het" do you (unless you're a Python).

That looks good enough to me. A slight fix though, 'dozo' is romanized as 'douzo'. And when I was taught to introduce myself in Japanese 1 I was told to use the following format:

Hajimemashite, Watashi no namae Wa Diasu Rauru Desu. Douzo Yoroshiku.

Now that I'm in Japanese 4 subtle changes have been made which I'll italicize for you to see:

Hajimemashite, Watashi wa Diasu Rauru to iimasu. Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

Firstly the 'no namae' part by Watashi was dropped, then 'desu' was replaced by 'to iimasu' (called/known as) and the 'Douzo Yoroshiku' was modified but this and that form are both good.

[Terrestrial Dream]

How would you say these in Japnese, 中国,美國, and 韓國. I know what the mean and though these are Chinese I think it's almost identical to kanji.

[Risaa]

Chuugoku, and... I have never seen the second kanji in the last two you listed. Neither has my kanji dictionary. O_o

[soka]

The third one is South Korea but they use 韓国 (kankoku) where 国 is a simplified version of 國.
The second one is United States but they use 米国 (beikoku) or just アメリカ (America).

[Terrestrial Dream]

The third one is South Korea but they use 韓国 (kankoku) where 国 is a simplified version of 國.
The second one is United States but they use 米国 (beikoku) or just アメリカ (America). 米 and 韓 what do they mean?

[shadow-of-sin]

米 means rice(read as "bei" in "beikoku")
韓 means Korea(read as "kan" in "kankoku")

[Risaa]

The third one is South Korea but they use ?? (kankoku) where ? is a simplified version of ?.
The second one is United States but they use ?? (beikoku) or just ???? (America).
Oh, thanks! I was mystified by the strange-looking kanji. :heh:

[deathreape98]

I'm writing a little something, anybody know where I can find a list of traditional japanese chants, thenin romajii, then translated into english?

[Vexx]

What do you mean by "chants"? Shinto prayers? Buddhist meditations? Haiku?

[deathreape98]

yeah, stuff like that. like the stuff used in anime that gets an editors note saying that this is a shinto chant/whatever to do whatever.

[Autumn Demon]

what does the = sign mean in roumaji? i see it occasionally in fansubs connecting two japanized english words, like in ray=out (from Eureka 7).

[WanderingKnight]

what does the = sign mean in roumaji? i see it occasionally in fansubs connecting two japanized english words, like in ray=out (from Eureka 7).

Nothing in particular. Since there's no space in Japanese notation, sometimes they use = or ・ to symbolize a separation between two different foreign words.

[Vexx]

This is probably your best source for Shinto (wasn't able to find much online in the way of romanized prayer) .... You might hit the religious section of the bookstore and look for Shinto or Buddhist chants ... or ask at your local buddhist temple for some phonetic scripts (tell them its for class).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/shinto.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto
http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/index.htm

The last link may be a good jumping point to find a prayer or chant.


Item: Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers Author: Introduction and translation by Ann Llewellyn Evans; foreword by Yukitaka Yamamoto
Price: CDN $25.00
Publisher: Tenchi Press/Trafford Publishing
　

　

[deathreape98]

thanks for the links


i need some help with the language bar. i have XP SP 2, and i have the button(s) for the language bar clicked- but no language bar. i right clicked my taskbar and looked at the possible toolbars, but the language bar wouldnt show up. also, 90% of the time, it wont type in japanese for anything out of word processor when i do ctrl+shift+2 (what i have it set to change to japanese.) can anybody help me get the bar working?

[FatPianoBoy]

It does this for me sometimes, too. I eventually gave up maintaining the language bar and i now switch to hiragana input by means of left alt+shift to go to Japanese and then left alt+~ to switch input modes. I think you might be skipping that second step.

[Vexx]

In both Win2K and in XP, the language bar is both flaky and refuses to retain the settings I give it. Great idea, but they simply didn't finish the thing.
If someone has any clues on how to get the damned function to remember that I want to have it default to hiragana+no_conversion, I'd be appreciative.

[richvh]

The third one is South Korea but they use 韓国 (kankoku) where 国 is a simplified version of 國.
The second one is United States but they use 米国 (beikoku) or just アメリカ (America).

The 米 of 米国 comes from the phonetic kanji used for America in the Edo/Meiji era: 亜米利加. (Western placenames had their names transliterated into kanji, and usually the first character was used as a shorthand for it, hence 英吉利(Igirisu, England) became 英国. In the case of America, 亜 was already used for 亜細亜 Asia, so the second character was used. These have almost all fallen out of common use, replaced by katakana.)

[WanderingKnight]

In both Win2K and in XP, the language bar is both flaky and refuses to retain the settings I give it. Great idea, but they simply didn't finish the thing.
If someone has any clues on how to get the damned function to remember that I want to have it default to hiragana+no_conversion, I'd be appreciative.I think the problem with that was because the thing works on a per-program basis. It has a global setup (default for each program that is opened), but you can specify it per program. So if you want to type Japanese on your web browser, you have to select your web browser and change while it's selected... but if for everything else other than the web browser, you'll type in your default language, unless you change it again for that specific app. It's a little retarded if you ask me, personally I found GNOME's SCIM to work much better (it sets the language globally every time you change it, and I finally found an intuitive hotkey configuration--never found one in XP's).

The thing would be much easier if it had any sort of documentation somewhere, but I never found it.

[Vexx]

aye, I figured out the 'per-program' issue... but every time I start it up after closing it, it has forgotten all my preferences. There may be a registry ick that can be twiddled.... but like you say, no docs.

[deathreape98]

benefit 1 to knowing japanese- telling your teachers "watashi no baka" means "i am smart' :P

little update for me, havent been able to study much because of school, but my times freeing up so ill get off my lazy behind and start learning katakana.

[Risaa]

I've discovered a great way to increase Japanese reading speed -- Japanese karaoke!!! It's a real challenge for me to be able to read fast enough to sing any normal to high-speed songs, but it's fun and I'm finding that I'm slowly getting faster and faster at it.

(...Of course, I've also gotten better at finding and picking the songs despite the massive amounts of kanjified names. I can find and select at least five songs in under thirty seconds now... And I usually do. :p )

[FatPianoBoy]

I've discovered a great way to increase Japanese reading speed -- Japanese karaoke!!! It's a real challenge for me to be able to read fast enough to sing any normal to high-speed songs, but it's fun and I'm finding that I'm slowly getting faster and faster at it.

Anime subtitles were how I learned to speed-read English, so I think you're onto something there :D

[Apple84]

ouuu okay kewl..this may help me too.and i was wondering if there is anyone who knows fluently in jap or is japanese..can u please help me translate this in english?thanks.


aisaretai demo aisou to shinai??? what does that mean in english? hopefully its nothing silly or funni =D

[richvh]

Looks like nonsense to me, though it could be an attempt by a non-native speaker to say "I want to be loved, but I won't try to love"

[Apple84]

to richvh:

ohh...is that really what it mean?? or close or similiar? i thought demo meant " but" though?

what does the rest mean? anyone else? i am just curious.

[FatPianoBoy]

Sounds more like: "I want to be loved, but it doesn't seem like I am/will be loved" to me.

[Li Jianliang]

That's the first line in the song Sen no Yoru o Koete from BLEACH. And yes, it is "I want to be loved, but I don’t try to love".

[lreth]

benefit 1 to knowing japanese- telling your teachers "watashi no baka" means "i am smart' :P

little update for me, havent been able to study much because of school, but my times freeing up so ill get off my lazy behind and start learning katakana.

of course if i'm gonna embarass myself i'd tell that one to a japanese sensei:P

[richvh]

That "aisou to shinai" still looks weird to me. Are you sure it isn't "aishiyou to shinai"?

[Li Jianliang]

It's not. The kanji is 愛されたい　でも　愛そうとしない

[FatPianoBoy]

愛そうとしない
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the そう in this context is something like 'seems like.' Though that may only be used as an adverb.

[Li Jianliang]

That's what it seems like at first, but in this case it's 'try to'.

[Nagato]

If you're interested ⇒ http://homepage3.nifty.com/jgrammar/ja/colum016.htm
Introducing some irregular verbs.

[richvh]

Hm, Kojien does list the godan verb 愛す as a variant of the sa-hen verb 愛する.

Interesting link there, Nagato... so I guess 愛そう is much more frequently used than 愛しよう, but some other forms are much more likely to use the sa-hen conjugation than the godan one.

[lreth]

That "aisou to shinai" still looks weird to me. Are you sure it isn't "aishiyou to shinai"?

i dont think aishiyou-aishyou even exists, while aisou does.

If i'm wrong what does aishiyou mean :o ?

[FatPianoBoy]

'Aishiyou' does indeed exist. Its dictionary form is 'aisuru (愛する),' which means 'to love.' 'Shiyou' is the volitional form of 'suru.'

[htsuji]

aisaretai demo aisou to shinai??? what does that mean in english? hopefully its nothing silly or funni =D
Probably, it means someone's selfishness: "Even though X has a desire to be loved by Y, X won't give Y his/her love (in return)."

("Aisou to shinai" is a bit corny and soap opera-like phrase but not strange.)

Since the phrase doesn't say "who" wants to be loved by "whom", it could mean "While X hopes Y loves X, Y is indifferent to X." I guess this is possible, though it is somewhat sloppy on grammar.

[deathreape98]

of course if i'm gonna embarass myself i'd tell that one to a japanese sensei:P
lol thatwould suck.... but lucky me im like the only person with somewhat of an understanding of japanese within a 10 mile radius :P


anyways, i have a question- where can i find some good hiragana and katakana reading exercises?

also what do i do after learning katakana- kanji and grammar?

[Tri-ring]

lol thatwould suck.... but lucky me im like the only person with somewhat of an understanding of japanese within a 10 mile radius :P


anyways, i have a question- where can i find some good hiragana and katakana reading exercises?

also what do i do after learning katakana- kanji and grammar?

Since I am Japanese I don't really have any place to point in terms of your first question but I do have adivce for your second which is learn the culture.
Language is in itself useless if you do not understand what the other side is anticipating as your reply and may resolve to further misunderstanding due to usage of the same language.
In other words, to place yourself in the other person's shoes you first need to understand what he is thinking and to know that you need to understand the culture to understand the opponent's priorities are.

[richvh]

@deathreape98: You need to study both vocabulary and grammar, as one is useless without the other. Kanji is something you should study along with vocabulary.

I'd suggest getting a textbook, as that will gradually introduce you to all of those, and at least some of the culture, in an organized manner.

@Tri-ring: While "opponent" is a good translation for 相手 in the context of a fight, it isn't for a conversation. Using "the other person" again would have been better.

[psycho bolt]

Here is a site for Japanese onomatopoeias
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Japanese%20onomatopoeia

Just a random thought: What is the jap onomatopeias for sneezing? In English is ah-choo!

Edit: NVM found the answer with a better list.
http://www.oop-ack.com/manga/soundfx.html

piiiiiiiiii piyo! piii piyo!

[Takeru]

lol thatwould suck.... but lucky me im like the only person with somewhat of an understanding of japanese within a 10 mile radius :P


anyways, i have a question- where can i find some good hiragana and katakana reading exercises?

also what do i do after learning katakana- kanji and grammar?
Try this, it's not hiragana/katakana, but it's what I learned kanji by in my official class.
http://webjapanese.com/kanji/

And in terms of after, read as much as you can, I finished all my classes and I read books on culture, food, even hand gestures, and occasionally translate songs just to keep my feet wet.

[Risaa]

One great thing about watching anime is that if you pay attention, you'll learn a lot of nonverbal gestures. Nonverbal communication is very important in learning any new language or culture, and it's saved me quite a bit since I've come to Japan.

Just today an old lady stopped me to ask me for directions to someplace and she couldn't hear me because of the loud traffic right next to us, but she saw me make the sign for "I'm sorry" (open "ready to karate chop" hand in front of your face as you bow) and understood that I couldn't help her.

(Although, she ended up thinking that I didn't know where the place was and replied that it's OK and left... Honestly, I was actually apologizing because I'd missed half the question and didn't understand what she was asking at the time. :heh: )

[Vexx]

One of the stupid Americans here called an older woman he was talking to a "MILF". Nobody knew what that was (ofc) but he was dumb enough to translate it... and couldn't understand why the woman got angry with him. I need to keep saving my reputation in various ways because of dolts like him! DX

O my aching back...... what a bloody idiot.

[deathreape98]

Try this, it's not hiragana/katakana, but it's what I learned kanji by in my official class.
http://webjapanese.com/kanji/

And in terms of after, read as much as you can, I finished all my classes and I read books on culture, food, even hand gestures, and occasionally translate songs just to keep my feet wet.

thanks, but im having some trouble with it. ill use list 1 for an example. it says

*kanji* 1:)hi 2:)-bi 3:) -ka 1:) sun 2:) day
1:)Nichi 2:) ni 3:) jitsu

whats it mean and how do i say it?

[Takeru]

thanks, but im having some trouble with it. ill use list 1 for an example. it says

*kanji* 1:)hi 2:)-bi 3:) -ka 1:) sun 2:) day
1:)Nichi 2:) ni 3:) jitsu

whats it mean and how do i say it?

The left is the kanji, the middle is the pronunciation, and the right is the meanings. But, I see what you're getting at now.

Luckily I found you a rather nice, in my opinion, hiragana/katakana site.
http://www.gyford.com/japanese/

One of the stupid Americans here called an older woman he was talking to a "MILF". Nobody knew what that was (ofc) but he was dumb enough to translate it... and couldn't understand why the woman got angry with him. I need to keep saving my reputation in various ways because of dolts like him! DX
Oh man, I seriously hope you're kidding. That's the lowest of low right there.

[richvh]

That is the reason people at The Japanese Page (http://www.thejapanesepage.com) advise people to learn words, not kanji.

日 means "sun" or "day", depending on context; as a stand-alone kanji, it is pronounced "hi", but in compounds it may be "bi", "ka", "nichi", "ni" or "jitsu"; which it is, you learn along with the word it's used in.

[deathreape98]

Luckily I found you a rather nice, in my opinion, hiragana/katakana site.
http://www.gyford.com/japanese/





thats a good website, but for じょ iput "jyo" and it says its wrong. rather sure its right, especialyl since when i type "jyo" in words processor it shows up as じょ

[richvh]

"Jyo" is sort of non-standard for じょ; more common is "jo" (Hepburn) or (among native speakers) "zyo".

[deathreape98]

ah, i see, thanks.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Sorry, but can anyone translate this for me?

我々の知る昭和に似た、別の歴史にある「1941年」の冬、邪悪な赤き帝国は突如北海道及び帝都に襲来、皇 国を占領下に置く。
欧州歴訪の旅中にあった内親王『桃園宮(とうえんのみや)那子様』は祖国奪還の戦いへ赴く為、敵艦隊に痛打 を加えた日本連合艦隊と合流し、世界情勢へ如何に対処すべきか世論定まらぬ米国に同盟せんと真珠湾へ向かう 。だが……。
帝国最強の姫君が硝煙に塗れ、権謀術数渦巻く世界を舞台に大活躍する、一億待望の書が登場。

こんなプリンセスを僕たちは待っていた!!

[SSJiffy]

もも子さんの車は車が止まてぶつけたとことです。
Here I'm attempting to say "Ms. Momoko's car just struck a parked/stopped car.", is it correct grammatically?

古いコンピュータがこわれたので、新しいコンピュータを買わなくてはいけません。
”My old computer broke, and so I had to buy a new one [computer].", is that sentence okay?

[FatPianoBoy]

もも子さんの車は止まれて車をぶつけました。
Try that.


古いコンピュータがこわれたので、新しいコンピュータを買わなくてはいけません。
”My old computer broke, and so I had to buy a new one [computer].", is that sentence okay?
Eh... it sounds a little funny to me, but it looks grammatically sound.

[Nagato]

^^ ももこさんの車は止まっている車にぶつかったばかりです。
　　　ももこさんの車は止まっている車にぶつかったところです。 ← usually used when you want to emphasize the occurrence time.

[htsuji]

もも子さんの車は車が止まてぶつけたとことです。
Here I'm attempting to say "Ms. Momoko's car just struck a parked/stopped car.", is it correct grammatically?

古いコンピュータがこわれたので、新しいコンピュータを買わなくてはいけません。
”My old computer broke, and so I had to buy a new one [computer].", is that sentence okay?
The second phrase is all right.

As for the first one,
Japanese adjectives and phrases that act like adjectives are placed before the associated noun. Thus, 車が止まて should be 止まっている車 or 止まっていた車.
Even if the phrase has more words, you have to place it before the noun.

For example:
"a beautiful car made by a company that has a long history"
= "長い歴史をもつ会社に 作られた　美しい　車"
While the English grammar places the phrase "made ... history" after the noun, "car",　Japanese puts its equivalent before the noun, "車".

A natural expression is:
ももこさんの車は、とまっていた車に　ぶつかったところです。

ももこさんの車 Ms Momoko's car
止まっていた車に to/on/at a car that was/had been parked (there)
ぶつかったところです struck just now

By the way, while both verb ぶつける and verb ぶつかる can mean "strike", the former means the action is done on purpose and the subject (actor) is usually a person.

ももこさん can do "ぶつける" something against something else if she wants, but ももこさんの車 cannot because it doesn't have its own will.

[askia47]

もも子さんの車は車が止まてぶつけたとことです。
Here I'm attempting to say "Ms. Momoko's car just struck a parked/stopped car.", is it correct grammatically?

古いコンピュータがこわれたので、新しいコンピュータを買わなくてはいけません。
”My old computer broke, and so I had to buy a new one [computer].", is that sentence okay?

Why am i thinking the second sentence makes no sense. Isn't 買わなくてはいけません。negative? im reading it as : "Since my old computer broke, i couldnt buy an new one".
maybe im confusing something

[richvh]

No, it means "have to buy"; the "must"/"have to" construction in Japanese is really long, consisting of a double negative. There are actually several similar constructions, with ～なくてはいけない being just one of them. See this article (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/haveto.html).

[WanderingKnight]

古いコンピュータがこわれたので、新しいコンピュータを買わなくてはいけません。
”My old computer broke, and so I had to buy a new one [computer]."

Hmm, I would say "I have to buy a new one". The final verb is in present tense.

[SSJiffy]

How would you ask someone if it's okay if you call them by their first name rather than their last name?

[FatPianoBoy]

How would you ask someone if it's okay if you call them by their first name rather than their last name?
Get to know them and then just blurt it out one day. If they don't slap you or look at you funny, you're good to go.

[Vexx]

*Usually* they'll invite you to do so..... Americans can get way with just trying it and seeing (along with the honorifics) because Japanese just expect them to be "so forward" and gregarious.

[FatPianoBoy]

*Usually* they'll invite you to do so..... Americans can get way with just trying it and seeing (along with the honorifics) because Japanese just expect them to be "so forward" and gregarious.
I've noticed this. I've actually had one person tell me to simply call her by her first name. So I used -chan, and she told me to drop it. I've known her for a while, but we're not that close.
Something a bit more typical is Japanese people extending their hand expecting me to shake it, even after I've already bowed :heh:

[Yaoi_Daisuki]

がつこう へ -> this is read as gakkooe (school) right? i just took up japanese classes, in my textbook they wrote this as gakkooe but isnt this gatsukouhe? wow holy shlt im confuse, i assume we dont pronouce the su?

[Kyuusai]

がつこう へ -> this is read as gakkooe (school) right? i just took up japanese classes, in my textbook they wrote this as gakkooe but isnt this gatsukouhe? wow holy shlt im confuse, i assume we dont pronouce the su?

Ah, that little っ is a tricky beast!

The っ is different than the つ in that the っ indicates what we write as a double consonant in roman letters. Yes, the only difference in their appearance is the size, and sometimes the size is close enough to be confusing.
はつこう -> ha tsu ko u
はっこい -> ha kko i

It looks like you're also wondering about the う being romanized as a second 'o'. Due to the pronunciation, it's romanized with a second 'o', to represent an extended vowel. Personally, I strongly object to this confusing romanization, and I think it's farther from the actual pronunciation than a straight romanization of each individual character. In more "official" romanization, you'll generally see this as a line above a single letter (such as "ō"), but I still personally find that ugly and unnecessary. Despite my opinion, that is the standard.

[richvh]

The つ should be っ - がっこう, gakkou. (The small tsu is represented in romaji by doubling the following consonant.)

Your textbook is evidently using classical Hepburn romaji, which renders all long O sounds as oo or o with a macron over it; you'll find most people these days are going to use wapuro romaji, which will render long Os the way they need to be written to get the correct kana (and hence, the right kanji conversions), which overwhelming are OU combinations.

[tripperazn]

がつこう へ -> this is read as gakkooe (school) right? i just took up japanese classes, in my textbook they wrote this as gakkooe but isnt this gatsukouhe? wow holy shlt im confuse, i assume we dont pronouce the su?

Despite my objections to your name, I'll help out as well. Haha j/k j/k :D

Kyuusai and richvh have explained the small "tsu", but the "he" -> "e" pronunciation is still unexplained.

Anyway, the character へ is used as a "particle". Other examples of particles would be が/ は etc. The sentences denoting the subject going somewhere uses the structure (destination) へ (verb). The example you gave is probably the start of 学校へ行くます。(Gakkou e ikimasu)

Another example: (excuse my lack of kana/kanji, too lazy)

America kara nihon e kimasu. (I returned to Japan from America)

Note that it still follows the pattern given above.

[Yaoi_Daisuki]

ah~~ thanks for the help, i get a clearer picture of it now.

Oh yeah another question is regarding the su. gozaimasu, sodesu and stuff, do we actually have to pronounce the su? If im not wrong its something to do with their dialect right? Like some do pronounce out but some dont, or the right way is not to pronounce it out at all?

[allyphatic]

I'm intending to expose myself to japanese writing by reading some raw mangas. Does anyone have recommendations for manga with

- good mix of kana and kanji
- good range of vocab
- preferably english-scanlated, for comparison
- well-formed sentences

Would you even recommend using manga? Thanks in advance.

[richvh]

Manga aren't generally recommended for beginners, because (since they are mostly dialogue), they tend to contain a lot of slang, dialectal speech, and unusual grammar patterns.

[allyphatic]

Oh, then could you recommend something (online) for a beginner to read? The grammar guides I've tried give short sentences randomly plucked from the sky, but kanji sites don't give a good sentence context.

[Kyuusai]

ah~~ thanks for the help, i get a clearer picture of it now.

Oh yeah another question is regarding the su. gozaimasu, sodesu and stuff, do we actually have to pronounce the su? If im not wrong its something to do with their dialect right? Like some do pronounce out but some dont, or the right way is not to pronounce it out at all?

The 'su' often has an abbreviated pronunciation, especially at the end of words, frequently even to the point of the vowel being unvoiced completely (or at least close enough to sound that way to inexperienced ears).

If you're listening to anything with native Japanese language, listen carefully any time it sounds like some one ends a word with an 's' sound, and it will almost certainly be a 'su' syllable. If you listen carefully enough, though, you might notice in many cases that the 'u' was there, just "clipped".

The exact pronunciation can very by dialect, but it can also vary vastly by personal choice of voicing. So long as you don't emphasize it at the end of a word, you'll be OK. Just try to imitate what you're hearing.

Oh, then could you recommend something (online) for a beginner to read? The grammar guides I've tried give short sentences randomly plucked from the sky, but kanji sites don't give a good sentence context.

My best recommendation would be to seek out old issues of Mangajin. It's out of print, but there have been books that collect many of its features. Others have turned to scanned copies distributed online, but just because it's out of print doesn't mean it's public domain.

[richvh]

Oh, then could you recommend something (online) for a beginner to read? The grammar guides I've tried give short sentences randomly plucked from the sky, but kanji sites don't give a good sentence context.
You might try children's newspaper sections, such as Yomiuri's (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/kyoiku/children/) or Mainichi's (http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/shakai/edu/maishou/)
If you're up to the challenge, you might try the novel I'm writing (link in sig), though I think it's more suited to intermediate readers. The first few chapters aren't too hard.

[tripperazn]

Interesting story richvh, you're right, with furigana it's definitely not too hard. Admittedly, I used google translator for some of the kanji in the last paragraph, first chapter. Thanks!

[richvh]

Might I suggest Firefox + Rikaichan as a better alternative to (ew!) Google Translate?

[tripperazn]

Woah...that is really handy! Thanks again!

I meant to ask last post, but is it supposed to be like one of those Japanese folk tales?

[richvh]

It started out that way. I think it went in a different direction, though, as it grew.

[WanderingKnight]

The 'su' often has an abbreviated pronunciation, especially at the end of words, frequently even to the point of the vowel being unvoiced completely (or at least close enough to sound that way to inexperienced ears).

If you're listening to anything with native Japanese language, listen carefully any time it sounds like some one ends a word with an 's' sound, and it will almost certainly be a 'su' syllable. If you listen carefully enough, though, you might notice in many cases that the 'u' was there, just "clipped".

The exact pronunciation can very by dialect, but it can also vary vastly by personal choice of voicing. So long as you don't emphasize it at the end of a word, you'll be OK. Just try to imitate what you're hearing.

I've found that, sometimes, in order to add emphasis (and exaggerating a bit, in my opinion), the "su" is vividly pronounced. It's usually heard in those 「ありがとうございます！」 exclamations when in front of a crowd (I'm currently thinking about hosts of live presentations in front of an audience, mainly because I just watched one :heh:), the ございます is soundly accented towards the end of the word, and thus the "su" is fully pronounced.

I don't know if it's too common, though, or if my analysis is in any way correct.

[onehp]

What and where do you recommend me that can something teach me comprehensive lessons on grammar higher than basic? I do know some schools can teach me but I like to see alternatives. I see particles in seemingly normal sentences that, in my knowledge, should not be there such as, (blah blah blah)ので(blah blah blah) and the 私はonehpといいます to name a few.

[kimchipride]

I took 3 years of High School Japanese and my hanasu is still worse than kindergarteners.


SIGH


I wish I took Spanish. It'd be much more useful.

[WanderingKnight]

(blah blah blah)ので(blah blah blah)

It's not an expression that can be succinctly explained in English... but, literally, it means something like "due to"... but then again, it's not exactly that, either. It depends on the context, and it is kind of formal speech.

If you can rationalize a mixture of what the particles の and で mean, you will get the idea, but you need to abstract yourself from your native language.

and the 私はonehpといいます to name a few.

と, besides meaning "and", is a particle that indicates that the preceding statement is a quote of some sort. In this case, imagine "onehp" between quotation marks and perhaps you'll get the gist of it. Then again, "quoted" statements are very, very common in Japanese, and are not used like in most (if not all) Western languages.

[Varion]

What and where do you recommend me that can something teach me comprehensive lessons on grammar higher than basic? I do know some schools can teach me but I like to see alternatives. I see particles in seemingly normal sentences that, in my knowledge, should not be there such as, (blah blah blah)ので(blah blah blah) and the 私はonehpといいます to name a few.
Try GuidetoJapanese.org (http://guidetojapanese.org/). They don't cover every grammar point you'll ever need or anything, but most of the major ones that require some extra explanation are there, including both the ones you listed. ので is here (http://guidetojapanese.org/compound.html#part4) and という is here (http://guidetojapanese.org/quotation.html) and here (http://guidetojapanese.org/define.html).

[Dxon]

All of you can do japanese? How did you people learn it? O_o

[tripperazn]

I learned the basics in intro language classes. Now I'm trying to build on it by watching raws, then subs for the parts I don't understand.

It's actually not very hard to get a basic understanding. If you want to start, you should definitely check out the site valdra suggested: guidetojapanese.org

It teaches you the correct way of learning Japanese. It's not very fun, but it works. You DO NOT want to learn it in relation to another language. The classes I took taught that way, and even now I mutter to myself in English when I translate the raws in my head. The point is, you don't want to translate in your mind, you want convert Japanese directly into thought.

I'd follow that online course. Again, memorizing what seems like random scribbles to you isn't fun, but reading kana is absolutely critical and child's play compared to kanji. Make sure to practice until you can read it fast. When you can read my title in under 2 seconds, I'd say that's good enough. When you get to the kanji section, don't panic and give up. It's really not that bad.

[onehp]

このおてら、ゆうめいなの <- what is the の for? I frequently see it in some informal sentences

ううん、あまりゆうめいじゃないよ

ずいぶんしずかね

そうだね

[Claymore_Obsessed]

The 'su' often has an abbreviated pronunciation, especially at the end of words, frequently even to the point of the vowel being unvoiced completely (or at least close enough to sound that way to inexperienced ears).

If you're listening to anything with native Japanese language, listen carefully any time it sounds like some one ends a word with an 's' sound, and it will almost certainly be a 'su' syllable. If you listen carefully enough, though, you might notice in many cases that the 'u' was there, just "clipped".

The exact pronunciation can very by dialect, but it can also vary vastly by personal choice of voicing. So long as you don't emphasize it at the end of a word, you'll be OK. Just try to imitate what you're hearing.


By the way, intentionally emphasizing the "su" is a very manly way of speaking?

because I remember that Excel Saga episode where Excel finds a talking gun that ends every sentence with a strong "SSU", something like "Ossu! Jibun no namae wa Nanami-SSU. Yoroshiku-SSU!" and she notes that's a very manly speech... :heh:

[WanderingKnight]

because I remember that Excel Saga episode where Excel finds a talking gun that ends every sentence with a strong "SSU", something like "Ossu! Jibun no namae wa Nanami-SSU. Yoroshiku-SSU!" and she notes that's a very manly speech..

Those last examples represent a shortening of "desu" in informal speech.

[Dxon]

I learned the basics in intro language classes. Now I'm trying to build on it by watching raws, then subs for the parts I don't understand.

It's actually not very hard to get a basic understanding. If you want to start, you should definitely check out the site valdra suggested: guidetojapanese.org

It teaches you the correct way of learning Japanese. It's not very fun, but it works. You DO NOT want to learn it in relation to another language. The classes I took taught that way, and even now I mutter to myself in English when I translate the raws in my head. The point is, you don't want to translate in your mind, you want convert Japanese directly into thought.

I'd follow that online course. Again, memorizing what seems like random scribbles to you isn't fun, but reading kana is absolutely critical and child's play compared to kanji. Make sure to practice until you can read it fast. When you can read my title in under 2 seconds, I'd say that's good enough. When you get to the kanji section, don't panic and give up. It's really not that bad.

I hear by thank you. :D I add some to your reputation! :D

If there is anything that you use aside the guide alone please tell me. With anything I mean lists of kanji and meaning plus pronunciation.

[tripperazn]

I hear by thank you. :D I add some to your reputation! :D

If there is anything that you use aside the guide alone please tell me. With anything I mean lists of kanji and meaning plus pronunciation.

It really depends on what you want to do with Japanese. If you want to watch raws, focus on grammar (verbs, adjectives, conjugation, are the main three). I suggest you start with being able to understand a conversation in Japanese, since listening is by far the easiest language skill.

Reading raw manga will be hard has richvh points out earlier. I'm slowly working through Hayate no Gotoku with scanlations for reference. You need all the skills of listening, plus knowledge of both "onyomi" and "kunyomi" for a lot of different characters of kanji. That kind of ability isn't going to mastered quickly by anyone. Reading Japanese takes me over 10 times longer than English.

If it's just for your personal enjoyment, obviously do whatever.

[raikage]

All of you can do japanese? How did you people learn it? O_o

Classes. There are cases of people who are self-taught, but such people I know aren't all that good relative to time spent learning.

I took 3 years of High School Japanese and my hanasu is still worse than kindergarteners.

That's kind of expected. :p

When I went to college, my Japanese teacher asked who had taken the language before.

Apparently 3-4 years in HS = 1st semester. No more than that.
Or maybe that's just the case where I went to school...

[WanderingKnight]

Classes. There are cases of people who are self-taught, but such people I know aren't all that good relative to time spent learning.It depends a lot on the person. For instance, I have a particular knack for learning languages just by exposition to it. I learned English just by hearing and reading it when I was 9-10... I had been taught only basic stuff in primary school, nothing beyond simple phrases like "The cat is under the table", and none of my relatives can speak it. It permeated so naturally through my environment (I've been playing with operating systems in English, movies, video games and the Internet for a long time) that I don't really remember a point in time where I said "Okay, I know zero English, so let's get to learn it".

The same thing happened to me with Japanese. At first, it was just basic word recognition (I remember I was very glad when I found out the meaning of 心 just by associating the translated lyrics and the romaji karaoke for the Bubblegum Crisis 2040 ED), then it evolved towards sentence structure, and then it just became something very natural to me. I started attending classes when I was 17 and, to be completely honest, these two years have been pretty boring, since I knew already all I've been taught. Most of my classmates are barely starting with kanji, and I've already got a bit more than a 3-Kyuu level. The most fun I can have in classes are those times where my teacher separates me (while the rest does some sort of exercise) and makes me practice dialog and rapid speech. I've talked to the course manager about skipping levels but he didn't agree, so next year I'm switching courses.

[Yaoi_Daisuki]

Hey guys, do you have this similar problems?

I just started learning Japanese a month ago, i could pretty much write all the hiragana now but i could only write in this way ka ki ko ke ko, sa shi su se so and so on pretty fast, so if someone randomly say a hiragana, i will need like 5 sec to think and write it down hmm. also is someone chuck me a sentence of hiragana it takes quite sometime for me to actually read it in mind or aloud. so did i actually memorize the hiragana or something? sometime seems to be awefully wrong -_-

also im trying to learn some vocabs, for example if someone point me a fish i cant answer that in japanese, but if someone ask me what is sakana i know that is fish -_-

holy, this is getting frustrating and at the same time entertaining. . lmao

[Kyuusai]

Hey guys, do you have this similar problems?

I just started learning Japanese a month ago, i could pretty much write all the hiragana now but i could only write in this way ka ki ko ke ko, sa shi su se so and so on pretty fast, so if someone randomly say a hiragana, i will need like 5 sec to think and write it down hmm. also is someone chuck me a sentence of hiragana it takes quite sometime for me to actually read it in mind or aloud. so did i actually memorize the hiragana or something? sometime seems to be awefully wrong -_-

also im trying to learn some vocabs, for example if someone point me a fish i cant answer that in japanese, but if someone ask me what is sakana i know that is fish -_-

holy, this is getting frustrating and at the same time entertaining. . lmao

Don't get too frustrated. Remember that it took time to learn your first language, too.

If you've learned to write the kana, practice reading them with flash cards. Better yet, there are lots of online kana flash card style games, some of which can actually be fun. When you have even the ability to recall them in any capacity, start reading everything you come across, even if it's just a couple of characters you see at random. The more context you have for what you're reading, though, the better it will stick.

Vocabulary is the same way. Sure, you can learn words by wrote memorization, but you'll remember them properly when you have some context for them. The more you learn and the more you actually experience these words, the easier it will be to not just memorize them, but absorb them. Remember, you're not trying to learn what a word means in English so much as you're just trying to learn what it means, period. It really ends up being more like just learning a new word in language you know more than learning "alternate words".

If you're some one who finds it easy to think visually (or even better, think in abstract, non-verbal, non-visual concepts--which is what I do), try to associate words not with the English translation, but with the picture or idea.

And read and listen to as much as you can, especially if it's in a form that interests you.

[Vexx]

Hey guys, do you have this similar problems?

I just started learning Japanese a month ago, i could pretty much write all the hiragana now but i could only write in this way ka ki ko ke ko, sa shi su se so and so on pretty fast, so if someone randomly say a hiragana, i will need like 5 sec to think and write it down hmm. also is someone chuck me a sentence of hiragana it takes quite sometime for me to actually read it in mind or aloud. so did i actually memorize the hiragana or something? sometime seems to be awefully wrong -_-

also im trying to learn some vocabs, for example if someone point me a fish i cant answer that in japanese, but if someone ask me what is sakana i know that is fish -_-

holy, this is getting frustrating and at the same time entertaining. . lmao

Welcome to the wondrous plumber's nightmare that is the Human Brain. Every person learns different but think back to how you learned your native language -- by immersion. Read the very young children's books daily - your library should have an international section.

Myself, I found a hybrid method -- I understand the grammatical structure and rules *first* for a language. Then it is a matter of adding vocabulary: people will often hear me muttering in Japanese or pulling out my pocket dictionary. Nouns come quicker, verbs take a bit longer. I have to read/practice every single day or it starts to fade: the brain is a voracious recycler of neurons --- grab that neuron, he isn't using it enough for Japanese. If you can start to visualize things in your head in japanese in parallel with your native language rather than first one then the other --- big step forward.

[siya]

I'm taking Japanese in school, most seem about right, I can post some notes that I have later, cause they're all at home and I'm at school :D

[Kyuusai]

Myself, I found a hybrid method -- I understand the grammatical structure and rules *first* for a language. Then it is a matter of adding vocabulary: people will often hear me muttering in Japanese or pulling out my pocket dictionary. Nouns come quicker, verbs take a bit longer. I have to read/practice every single day or it starts to fade: the brain is a voracious recycler of neurons --- grab that neuron, he isn't using it enough for Japanese. If you can start to visualize things in your head in japanese in parallel with your native language rather than first one then the other --- big step forward.

I can definitely relate to this. For any one else who can, you might consider the book Japanese Step by Step : An Innovative Approach to Speaking and Reading Japanese by Gene Nishi. There is, perhaps, nothing more beautiful in my mind than seeing grammar depicted as flow charts. :) Good, though certainly not for every one.

I didn't find it as handy as Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/), though, which I see as not only a better overall reference, but certainly better suited to a general audience of folks who lack the "engineer gene" (ie, those who DON'T find grammar depicted as flow charts beautiful :) ).

[tripperazn]

Can anyone direct me a web reference with readings and examples for the more commonly used kanji? As useful as Rikaichan is, it's pretty much a crutch and isn't really helping me learn kanji. Thanks!

[Kyuusai]

Can anyone direct me a web reference with readings and examples for the more commonly used kanji? As useful as Rikaichan is, it's pretty much a crutch and isn't really helping me learn kanji. Thanks!

I'm not quite sure if it's what you're looking for, but Denshi Jisho (http://www.jisho.org/) is an excellent lookup system that presents data from just about all the electronic data compilation available from Monash University's Japanese department, including readings, English and Spanish dictionary, frequency information, and example sentences--not to mention indices and classifications to reference other dictionaries.

[richvh]

On thing I found useful was to copy text I was reading online into a text file - not by copy and pasting, but by actually typing it in. I would be using Rikaichan to get the reading when I wasn't sure, and gradually there were fewer and fewer things I needed Rikaichan for.

Memorizing kanji readings is _not_ a very good path to Japanese literacy (nor, indeed, all that useful.) You need to learn how to use them in context.

[tripperazn]

Thanks guys! I actually have a pretty good system going here with richvh's novel as source material for prose, copying methodology, and actively looking things up with Denshi Jisho.

[RandomGuy]

と, besides meaning "and", is a particle that indicates that the preceding statement is a quote of some sort. In this case, imagine "onehp" between quotation marks and perhaps you'll get the gist of it. Then again, "quoted" statements are very, very common in Japanese, and are not used like in most (if not all) Western languages.
More to the point, it's a quotative particle that marks the preceding phrase as subordinate to what follows. It can be quoted speech (thus functioning as "quotation marks" as above), or be used as "that" in the context of a conjunctive particle, e.g. 田中さんはいい人だと思う, "I think that Tanaka is a good person". (Unfortunately for Japanese speakers learning English, the word "that" is frequently dropped in this context, and the subordinate clause is thus implied only by context.)

このおてら、ゆうめいなの <- what is the の for? I frequently see it in some informal sentences
It's part of the explanatory predicate, which takes the (uninflected) form of "[na] no da" ("na" is only used when the final word of the main clause is a noun or -na adjective). In the case you cite above, the speaker is female, and drops "da" altogether, leaving "no" at the end. The common contraction for men in the informal form is "n'da," though the "no" is often contracted to "n" in more polite speech as well, except in the most formal circumstances. And here in Osaka Prefecture, it's said as "nen". :cool:

As for the meaning itself, it's highly dependent on context, but usually the person is giving information to supplement a previous assertion, or making a statement that explains an apparent situation. (In this case, however, the person is wrong and is informed of such by the others. It's still hard for me, as a non-native speaker, to pinpoint the exact reason, but in phrasing her initial statement the way she did, she's probably either indicating that it's "what the guidebook says," or explaining over the others' disappointment why she wanted to see the temple which is quite deserted.)

[onehp]

How should I say:

1) I already have this thing -?> このことは私もいます
2) How do I do this? -?> これをどうしますか

Is the "u" faded in "zu" like sometimes "u" is faded in "su"

[richvh]

1) こと is an abstract thing, a generic physical thing is もの. Also, only animate objects take いる, inanimate objects take ある. The "already" adverb is もう (long o sound), not も (short o sound.)
わたしはもうこのものがあります, I think. (Or わたしはもうこのものをもっています, to use a different verb.)
2 looks good to me.

"u" (and "i") only gets devoiced when following an unvoiced consonant at the end of a sentence, or between unvoiced consonants, so no, the "u" of "zu" does not get devoiced.

[Mueti]

Memorizing kanji readings is _not_ a very good path to Japanese literacy (nor, indeed, all that useful.) You need to learn how to use them in context.
It's the fastest way for me. Of course, reading and seeing the kanji used in context is necessary as well, and maybe even more important. But by reading alone, without having them learned before, I'll only be able to memorize the most commonly used kanji, and only their most common readings on top of that.
Actually, what I'd recommend is writing. Not typing but actual writing, by hand. By writing kanji down lots of times they become incredibly more decipherable when I come across them while reading.

[Dxon]

Ive almost done hiragana table and now just finishing touches of learning it.
But my question is.

how do you people write japanese in here while its a english site?! O_o

[WanderingKnight]

how do you people write japanese in here while its a english site?! O_o

Eh, you can type Japanese in any kind of website, provided it's got the proper encoding set. vBulletin is Unicode so you can type in any kind of writing system.

Remember that to actually type Japanese characters you need to have Japanese fonts installed in your PC and a sort of IME to switch between one language and another.

[richvh]

I use the Japanese IME for Windows XP (best installation instructions I've found (http://fredart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4732)) and the Firefox browser (IE messes up when you try to enter Japanese text on an ISO-8859-1 page.)

[Dxon]

ok i got my keyboard in japanese but still no characters. How do you do it for Firefox then?
I got firefox too. :)

[richvh]

Did you follow all the directions on that site?
Alt-left shift until you get JP in the language bar.
Alt-~ to switch between direct (alphabetic) input and kana input.

[tripperazn]

ok i got my keyboard in japanese but still no characters. How do you do it for Firefox then?
I got firefox too. :)

I did it for vista, but you have to go to "Input Mode" and select "Hiragana". Then you can actually type. Strike "aiueo" on your keyboard and you should get "あいうえお”.

Does anyone know the key input for the small versions of characters like "っ” except with "あいうえお”? It's sometimes needed for katakana and speech nuances.

[Nagato]

^type l or x before any character you want to make small. So for っ you type ltu or xtu in alphabet input mode.

[cyrandl]

Hi,

I dont know if its useful but to help myself while learning Hiragana/Katakana i wrote a small Application for training.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/kanatrain/

[Dxon]

thanks it worked! :D
Now i can type japanese. :D
あいえうお
or something.. :P
さ～だ～ま～さ～し～
：D

Hi,

I dont know if its useful but to help myself while learning Hiragana/Katakana i wrote a small Application for training.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/kanatrain/
About your kanatrainer. It really needs some testing. It seems like endless for the training and tests. I hit 143 and still didnt stop. Also at test when does the test stop? At 100?
Furthur its a good start. :D

[Slice of Life]

There is also a webbased trainer (http://www.theiling.de/schrift/index.html.en) for Kana and other scripts a friend of mine wrote. Just please spare him comments like "there's no 'hu', there's only a 'fu'" and related n00bery (especially since there is a button to change the romanization scheme ;)).

[Mueti]

Having the option to type the characters instead of having to select them from that chart would make it a whole lot more handy.

[Dxon]

Would be a lot more handy indeed. :)

[Slice of Life]

Comment field -> proposal.

[onehp]

私はこれをどう話すか：

1) I do not want to eat (or some other verbs) this -?> 私はこれを食べるがほしくない
-is the japanese phrase different from　this japanese phrase: I do not eat this -> 私はこれを食べません

2) How can you do this without that? -?> あなたはどうこれをしますでそれをありませんか

3) Please speak in Japanese (or some other language) -?> 日本語でいってください

I am confused with "ni" and "de" particles. To me "ni" is positioning and movement to that position be it abstract or material and "de" is like "is done via", can be used as a positioning, and current state. If both "de" and "ni" are used as a positioning, which one should I use?

Also, how often is the "e" particle used?

[Risaa]

1) I do not want to eat (or some other verbs) this -?> 私はこれを食べるがほしくないBecause you're using a verb you would use "-tai" instead of "hoshii", so the correct way to write that line would be "watashi wa kore o tabetaku nai". "Tabetai" = want to eat, and the negative form is "tabetakunai".

...And I started explaining "de" and "ni" but then got all confused trying to say it in English. XD;

[richvh]

Risaa covered #1.

私はこれをどう話すか：

Don't use か with plain form; it comes off as very demanding, or as a rhetorical question. Also, in this case, 言う should have been used rather than 話す.

2) How can you do this without that? -?> あなたはどうこれをしますでそれをありませんか
それがなかったら、どうやってこれができますか。

3) Please speak in Japanese (or some other language) -?> 日本語でいってください
日本語で話してください。

I am confused with "ni" and "de" particles. To me "ni" is positioning and movement to that position be it abstract or material and "de" is like "is done via", can be used as a positioning, and current state. If both "de" and "ni" are used as a positioning, which one should I use?

In positioning, に is much more specific than で. Some verbs just take に for positioning: the verbs of existence, いる, ある; habitation 住む; sitting 座る all take に. Other activities usually take で.

Also, how often is the "e" particle used?

へ has a much more restricted usage than any other basic particle: it can only be used to indicate a destination or a direction.

[tripperazn]

Don't use か with plain form; it comes off as very demanding, or as a rhetorical question. Also, in this case, 言う should have been used rather than 話す.


You have 話す and 言う confused. How I understand it is that 話す refers to the general act of talking or conversing with someone. 友達と話しました。 I talked with my my friends. It doesn't indicate exactly what we said, but gives you the information that talking did occur.

On the other hand, 言う is more specific and is used for quoting exact lines. ”カラオケへ行こう？”　を　言っていました。 (not sure on the conjugation for this one, I completely suck at writing, but you get the idea) I asked, "Do you guys want to go karaoke?"


The "へ" particle:

I'm just gonna explain it how I did before. The basic structure is "Destination" へ "Verb".

学校　へ　行きます。
アメリカ　から　日本　へ　来ます。
うち　へ　帰ります。
etc, etc...

[Nagato]

He said in this case. I think onehp want to say "how to say this correctly?". Therefore in this case, as richvh said, 言う is more appropriate. I get an impression that when you say 話す you give more explanation about what you want to tell, while 言う you just simply state or say something. Of course 言う and 話す are also used other ways.

as for "he" particle I often use "ni" instead. It's said that it depends on trend and seems like young people often use "ni" while old people use "he" more.

[richvh]

言う is (roughly) equivalent to "say," and 話す is (roughly) equivalent to "speak."

これをどう言いますか - How do (I) say this?
これは日本語で何と言いますか - What is this called in Japanese?

日本語で話してください - Please speak in Japanese.

[raikage]

as for "he" particle I often use "ni" instead. It's said that it depends on trend and seems like young people often use "ni" while old people use "he" more.

As I understand it, "e" indicates a direction, "ni" indicates a location (when used in that way).

"Toshokan he iku" means headed in the direction of the library, "toshokan ni iku" means headed to the library.

Probably not a great distinction, but there you have it.

And re: hanasu/iu, "nihongo de itte kudasai" would mean, to me, "Please say that (again) in Japanese" and said, perhaps, by a teacher who wants you to practice or a Japanese citizen who isn't familiar with your native language.

Though that's a personal interpretation, and likely way off. :)

[Vexx]

And even more ambiguously, many modern japanese don't really distinguish between "ni" and "e" when using it... its just a flair difference for them (with the possibly unintended difference in emphasis). Raikage's example is spot on as to why not to get bound up in knots over it.

English has dozens of ways to say the same functional thing.. .just be glad japanese is much more limited (confined? clear?) in some respects. ... though I suspect Evil Japanese Dark Age Accountants are responsible for their "counter words from hell" :)

[Risaa]

I suspect Evil Japanese Dark Age Accountants are responsible for their "counter words from hell" :)
Along those lines, does anyone know what other languages use so many different counter words? Korean, and what else?

There's few things more frustrating than going to the store and wanting to request a specific number of a certain thing but being unable to because you've forgotten the counter word. In those cases I usually use a general counter word even when inappropriate, or just kind of die inside while holding up my fingers.

Sometimes I'll get excited and say something completely wrong, like when I went to Misudo and wanted two donuts, I said "futari!!!" "fu..futari?" (ack!) "'futatsu' tte! Itta!... i mashita!" (Combined with a look of, "nyoro~n, just give me my donuts so I can run away and die now.")

[darksider]

As I understand it, "e" indicates a direction, "ni" indicates a location (when used in that way).

"Toshokan he iku" means headed in the direction of the library, "toshokan ni iku" means headed to the library.

Probably not a great distinction, but there you have it.

「京へ筑紫に坂東さ」 ... an old Japanese saying (and I'm too lazy to explain what it is)
They are dialects, sort of, if I say, and I think there's not much difference between those words.

But, come to think of it, raikage's commentary looks somewhat feasible as well.

[onehp]

What is the ~na in "kon~", "son~", and "an~" for? What does the whole meaning means?

[richvh]

Konna, sonna, anna, donna: this/that/what kind of...

They're basically contractions of kono/sono/ano/dono you na.

[zetsumei]

what's the different between 強く/強い　濃い/濃く etc. 'ku' equal 'ly' ending? strongly/strong?

[richvh]

Basically, yes. 強く modifies a verb or adjective (adverbial usage); 強い modifies a noun, or is a predicate. This is the general rule for all い adjectives. Also, な adjectives conjugate differently: きれいに (adverbial usage), きれいな (directly modifying the following noun), きれいだ (predicate).

Note that there are cases were 強く will not be translated to "strongly", because of the differences between English and Japanese grammar. E.g., 強くない "not strong", 強くなる "become strong."

[SSJiffy]

I have an art book here that has a sentence that I need help translating.
どんなあなたにオススメします！
It's in the context of 'this isn't only for reading! You can make figures, get cosplay designs, etc...'. I've gotten '(for) What kind of you..' and have difficulty figuring out 'オススメ', if I repeat it enough it begins to sound like 'osmosis' and 'awesome'. Pfft.

[richvh]

お奨め 【おすすめ】 (n) recommendation, recommendable

It's in katakana for emphasis, not because it's a loan-word.

Are you sure there isn't something else between どんな and あなた?

[tripperazn]

A rather specific question, but what does テンション　高い mean? I know the loan word is "tension", but I can't figure out exactly what it's referring to. Obviously misused, like スタイル which refers to a woman's figure not clothing, right?

[richvh]

# テンションが非常に高い　【形】 hyper
is the only example on ALC for テンション that also includes 高い, and there aren't any example sentences for テンション at all in the Tanaka corpus that WWWJDIC uses; can you give further context?

If it's referring to someone's personality, it might be something along the lines of "high-strung"

[WanderingKnight]

A rather specific question, but what does テンション　高い mean? I know the loan word is "tension", but I can't figure out exactly what it's referring to. Obviously misused, like スタイル which refers to a woman's figure not clothing, right?

Probably "high tension", as in "tense situation". It's a fairly common used phrase in anime/manga.

[onehp]

どうこんなを言いますか：
1) I do not want to let people to know my password -?> 私は人たちが私のパスヲードを知っていますをしたない
2) I showed you my name in katakana -?> あなたにかたかなに私の名前をみせました

アニメの歌には違いと言いますがありますか。なんでも日本歌にも違いと言いますがありますか

[aohige]

どうこんなを言いますか：
1) I do not want to let people to know my password -?> 私は人たちが私のパスヲードを知っていますをしたない
2) I showed you my name in katakana -?> あなたにかたかなに私の名前をみせました

アニメの歌には違いと言いますがありますか。なんでも日本歌にも違いと言いますがありますか

I'm sorry, but your Japanese is absolutely impossible to understand. :heh:

Your Japanese sounds something like this in English.

"How this say you what?"
"We people we password know but not do"
"I showed you katakana with my name"
"Anime songs says diffrent yes? Anything Japanese songs diffrent say yes?"

Now you see why I can't tell what your question is. :heh:
I suggest instead of trying to ask questions in Japanese, please ask in English, until your Japanese grammar is a bit more coherent.

Anyways....
"I do not want to let people to know my password"
「私は他人に自分のパスワードを知られたくありません」

"I showed you my name in katakana"
「貴方に私の名前をカタカナでお見せしました」

[tripperazn]

どうこんなを言いますか：
1) I do not want to let people to know my password -?> 私は人たちが私のパスヲードを知っていますをしたない
2) I showed you my name in katakana -?> あなたにかたかなに私の名前をみせました

アニメの歌には違いと言いますがありますか。なんでも日本歌にも違いと言いますがありますか

Your other mistakes are somewhat understandable, but please stop trying to modify verbs with other verbs. There is something called "verb conjugation", it's a royal pain in the ass in Japanese, but necessary to convey what you want in these cases.

Start with the basics, asking about these sentences with complex modifiers is NOT productive.

[richvh]

A read through Tae Kim's Grammar Guide (http://www.guidetojapanese.org), at least Section 2 of it, would be more productive than trying to form random, complex sentences.

Japanese does have auxiliary verbs, but they operate completely differently from English auxiliary verbs.

[RandomGuy]

"I do not want to let people to know my password"
「私は他人に自分のパスワードを知られたくありません」
Wouldn't it be more like ｢知らせたくありません｣? Or is there some nuance that you're trying to convey through use of the passive there?

[aohige]

Wouldn't it be more like ｢知らせたくありません｣? Or is there some nuance that you're trying to convey through use of the passive there?

It would, literally mean that, yes. But you woldn't use it in such fashion.
It simply doesn't sound right, although you would get the message across.

[darksider]

Wouldn't it be more like ｢知らせたくありません｣? Or is there some nuance that you're trying to convey through use of the passive there?

I would translate that to English as "I don't want to have people know my password" or something similar.

[shiorey]

I thought it would have been done already but alas no. There may be people who are not able to get lessons so here is where you come!! I am still learning japanese and have ALOT more to learn...so I am going to say a few basic things and maybe some other people who speak or are learning it can contribute ^_^!

*~~::Okey a few notes::~~*

++As you most probably know, the japanese people are really big on manners so you have to be careful when you speak.

++Dictionary form verbs (verbs straight from the dictionary) can be rude when your speaking to people, especially elders!

++There are 3 levels of politeness (roughly anyway); there is low (dictionary), medium (the standard which lots of people use) which involves adding "masu" on words (dont worry at the moment) and the highest level of politeness which I don't know much about but adding "gozaimasu" on to the end of arigatou is being really polite ^_^

++There are 4 styles of writing...not sure if i should say styles but anyway...theres is Kanji(typical jap symbols), hiragana, romaji (english letters) and katakana...i only know hiragana at the moment but i will learn the othes eventually.

++This has nothing to do with learning Japanese but i was told by my tutour that if ya have your chop sticks facing somebody it means you want them dead...lol! thats why they have them horizontally.

++In japanese to signify that its the end of the sentence they have "desu".

++Also lots of japanese words like "desu" and "masu" end with "u"...most japanese people dont pronounce the "u" so "desu" spoken would be "des" but of course there are some parts of japan in which they do pronounce it...its your choice. In lots of animes they pronounce the "u" i think they do it coz it sounds cute sometimes ^_^

*~~::Lets start with simple things::~~*
1 = ichi (some ppl say ich)
2 = ni
3 = san
4 = shi/yon
5 = go (o is pronounced like the "o" in rob...soz thats all i can think of)
6 = roku
7 = nana/shishi
8 = hachi
9 = Ku (there is supposed to be a line above the "u"..its pronounced like "q"
10 = jyu------its kyuu num 11 is juu

*~~::Greetings::~~*
Hello = kon nichi wa-------hello is harro kon ichi wa is good afternoon
goodbye = Sayonara (line above the "o")---also see you is ja-mata
yes = hai
no = ie (ie also means house ^_^)
thank you = arigato-----its spelled arigatou
Pleased to meet you = Yoroshiku (used on this board alot ^_^)
excuse me (attention) = Shitsurei
Sorry = sumimasen or gomenasai or gomen
its gomen nansai
*~~::NEXT LESSON::~~*...when i have done my homework
Subjects (like people...you, i, mum, etc)
Simple tourist questions
Questions
Days of the week
Animals

*~~::NEXT NEXT LESSON::~~*
alphabets
simple sentence structure
objects (car, window etc)
verbs(dictionary form)

and there will be more lessons which will teach ya how to convert dictionary form verbs to polite form....and also how to change the tense...but lets stick with the basics for now ^_^
P.S i most probably made some mistakes so ya can just tell me and i will fix em ^_^

Just wanted to let you know these details were wrong i speak japanese myself
by the way nice to meat you is also sometimes hajimimashite

[tripperazn]

Wrong, but oh so typical of how Japanese is taught. Worst thing is that native speakers never even try to correct the foreigners trying to learn their language.

Once I tried to talk to a Japanese lady using casual Japanese with dictionary form and loose grammar just to see how she would react (about 20 year age difference, I'm under 20...just a kid in other words). She just pretended like nothing happened and continued to use polite -masu forms. Not only awkward for me, but just :eyebrow:

[WanderingKnight]

Once I tried to talk to a Japanese lady using casual Japanese with dictionary form and loose grammar just to see how she would react (about 20 year age difference, I'm under 20...just a kid in other words). She just pretended like nothing happened and continued to use polite -masu forms. Not only awkward for me, but just :eyebrow:

Hmm, it's pretty common for women to use masu-kei and not jisho-kei. I would say it's rather the norm.

[tripperazn]

Hmm, it's pretty common for women to use masu-kei and not jisho-kei. I would say it's rather the norm.

I do know that women are usually more polite such as not using 飯を食う whereas men typically do. But in my case, she was more or less tutoring me by making small talk and it's not like I can't understand jisho-kei, I was using it. Also, she was a LOT older, her kids probably weren't much younger than I was. Doesn't that suggest that she can talk down to me?

[aohige]

I do know that women are usually more polite such as not using 飯を食う whereas men typically do. But in my case, she was more or less tutoring me by making small talk and it's not like I can't understand jisho-kei, I was using it. Also, she was a LOT older, her kids probably weren't much younger than I was. Doesn't that suggest that she can talk down to me?

Is she a stranger?

In Japanese culture, most people (well, other than a few shitamachi downtown folks :D) will not talk frankly or "casually" to a stranger. You would have to be fairly close or known each other for a while before they do.
It's totally diffrent from American culture, where you can talk very casually and frank to someone you've met for the first time.

[darksider]

Once I tried to talk to a Japanese lady using casual Japanese with dictionary form and loose grammar just to see how she would react (about 20 year age difference, I'm under 20...just a kid in other words). She just pretended like nothing happened and continued to use polite -masu forms. Not only awkward for me, but just :eyebrow:


Pointing out how others' words are rude to yourself is the best way to show your own utter arrogance; I thought you should know it already.
And, ones always use polite forms usually never break the custom no matter whom they talk to.

If you wanted her to point your wrongs out in this case, you could have told her you were especially interested in usage (and abusage) of polite words. Else no one would bother correcting your own rudeness.

[richvh]

Just wanted to let you know these details were wrong i speak japanese myself
by the way nice to meat you is also sometimes hajimimashite
That should be "hajimemashite."

Don't you feel embarrassed trying to correct a 4 year old post?

[Vexx]

@Shiorey: Good rule to follow --> ALWAYS check the date on a post before you respond to it.

We'll hope that gravitation has since improved much of his knowledge since then. This is probably Reason One to be careful about what you write on the Net. It *never* really goes away :)

[tripperazn]

Thanks for the help on jisho vs. masu kei. I guess this just proves that anime is not a reliable reference for culture :heh:

[RandomGuy]

That should be "hajimemashite."

Don't you feel embarrassed trying to correct a 4 year old post?

To be fair, it could be a typo... though there's no excuse for mistaking a shimo ichidan verb for a kami ichidan one when it's obvious from the dictionary form. (Or a word as common as "hajimemashite", for that matter.) :heh:

[Daughter!]

Yueahj Everyone 2008!@!!!!!!@!!

[onehp]

Can't read the bolded kanji and don't know the meaning of the underlined. Could you translate the whole sentence into romaji?

1)私は他人に自分のパスワードを知られたくありません
-知られたくありません
--is this 1 word? what does ~られ do?

2)貴(<-- underlined) 方に私の名前をカタカナでお見せしました
-見せしました
--shouldn't it be "misemashita" because the dictionary form is "miseru"

--------------------------------------------------------------------
1)どうこんなを言いますか
-I still do not understand how to use the "konna" and such. I was asking "How should I say these?" I assumed "konna" is equal to "these"

2)アニメの歌には違いと言いますがありますか。なんでも日本歌にも違いと言いますがありますか
-I was asking "In anime songs, do they say things differently? Also do any Japanese songs say things differently?". How should I rephrase it in coherent Japanese?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I only know basic and a bit intermediate Japanese grammar and I cannot find advanced lessons on grammar such as the sentences I am posting. I am currently reading "Japanese Step by Step" by Gene Nishi and am at the back pages. It only encompasses basic and intermediate grammar and only show sentences that are not like what I am posting here. I'll also go check the Tae Kim's page

[tripperazn]

私は他人に自分パスワードを知られたくありません。
watashi wa tanin ni jibun pasuwaado wo shiraretakuarimasen.

貴方に私の名前をカタカナでお見せしました。
anata ni watashi no namae wo katakana de omiseshimashita.

～える　～られる
The conjugation you use to describe ability to do something. ご飯を食べる。 is "I can eat rice."

自分　romaji: jibun definition: noun that refers to yourself

貴方 romaji: anata definition: a general way to refer to another person, I guess "you" would be an okay equivalent.

こんな　　romaji: konna definition: as such/like this for example: *gives demonstration* 　こんな感じです。　(It looks something like this.) Sorry, I can't think of a good example.

I would NEVER question a native speaker's grammar, ever. Seriously, it's just something you do not do, almost under any circumstance. I believe aohige already rephrased your sentence into coherent Japanese.

[onehp]

Could not I say "shitakuarimasen" instead? It makes no sense to me putting "rareru"

[tripperazn]

Could not I say "shitakuarimasen" instead? It makes no sense to me putting "rareru"

Read the last sentences of my last post. Japanese grammar is more complicated than you can imagine. What "makes sense" to you as a foreigner makes absolutely no difference. This isn't my attempt to be racist or anything, I'm not Japanese, just making a point that you shouldn't question grammar from someone who's spoken the language almost since birth.

[onehp]

I do not feel helped at all because I do not understand how to use "rareru"

[tripperazn]

～える　～られる
The conjugation you use to describe ability to do something. ご飯を食べる。 is "I can eat rice."


I really hate to quote myself, but...

If that isn't enough, go here: http://guidetojapanese.org/potential.html

Take a couple of hours and read through that guide. That is teaching Japanese done right.

[onehp]

What is the purpose of the "~rare~" in shiraretakuarimasen when I just want to say "do not want people to know"

[tripperazn]

Just because it sounds right when you translated it into English DOES NOT mean it conveys the same message in Japanese. Just go with aohige's translation.

If I had to guess, it implies that they do not have the ability to know in addition to their state of not knowing.

[richvh]

1)私は他人に自分のパスワードを知られたくありません
-知られたくありません
--is this 1 word?
Well, that depends on how you define "word", especially in a language like Japanese that is agglutinative and doesn't normally use spaces.

what does ~られ do?
I think this is what is termed the "suffering passive."


2)貴方に私の名前をカタカナでお見せしました
-見せしました
--shouldn't it be "misemashita" because the dictionary form is "miseru"

お+-masu stem+する is a form of humble speech, a type of keigo.
お見せしました means the same thing as 見せました, but is more polite towards the person being shown.

1)どうこんなを言いますか
-I still do not understand how to use the "konna" and such. I was asking "How should I say these?" I assumed "konna" is equal to "these"
Konna, like kono, has to modify a noun. If you want to say "these" as a pronoun rather than an adjective, use これ or これら. Anyway, konna means "this kind of", not "these."

2)アニメの歌には違いと言いますがありますか。なんでも日本歌にも違いと言いますがありますか
-I was asking "In anime songs, do they say things differently? Also do any Japanese songs say things differently?". How should I rephrase it in coherent Japanese?

What do you mean by "say things differently"?

～える　～られる
The conjugation you use to describe ability to do something. ご飯を食べる。 is "I can eat rice."
Sorry, but 知る is a godan verb. 知られる is passive, not potential; the potential form is 知れる.

Tae Kim doesn't cover the suffering passive (or affective passive, as it is also known) in his guide (yet), but see this post (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=11680#p11680) (among others) in his forum.

What is the purpose of the "~rare~" in shiraretakuarimasen when I just want to say "do not want people to know"
It indicates that you will be negatively affected by your password being known.

[tripperazn]

Sorry, but 知る is a godan verb. 知られる is passive, not potential; the potential form is 知れる.

Tae Kim doesn't cover the suffering passive (or affective passive, as it is also known) in his guide (yet), but see this post (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=11680#p11680) (among others) in his forum.


Is it common to use in speech? You use it, but I've never really heard of this before. Did I just not notice? If the passive voice usage is similar to English, it's never used in speech and almost unacceptable in literature (with the sole exceptions of usage for effect and government documentation). Thanks for the corrections, as usual. :heh:

[onehp]

-Is 知られたくありません an inflection of "shiru"?

-What I meant by "saying things differently" is are their sentence structure different from the norm and the way they speak overall

Konna, like kono, has to modify a noun. If you want to say "these" as a pronoun rather than an adjective, use これ or これら. Anyway, konna means "this kind of", not "these."
-So if the noun was book
"konna hen desu" -?> this kinds of book are strange

[richvh]

-Is 知られたくありません an inflection of "shiru"?

Yes. 知る-> (passive) 知られる -> (desiderative) 知られたい -> (negative) 知られたくない -> (polite) 知られたくありません

-What I meant by "saying things differently" is are their sentence structure different from the norm and the way they speak overall

They're songs, which are a subset of poetry. Songs and poetry play games with grammar, no matter the language. Don't study songs to learn grammar.

Konna, like kono, has to modify a noun. If you want to say "these" as a pronoun rather than an adjective, use これ or これら. Anyway, konna means "this kind of", not "these."

-So if the noun was book
"konna hen desu" -?> this kinds of book are strange

No. You need the noun (or の as a place marker for the noun) in the sentence.
こんな本は変です。 - This kind of book is strange.
こんなのは変です。 - This kind is strange.

[WanderingKnight]

"konna hen desu" -?> this kinds of book are strange

Hmm, I don't think こんな is used in this kind of situation. I think このような〜 is more common, as in 「このような本がへんなんです」. Still, the phrase sounds awkward in my ears.

[richvh]

As I explained a couple of pages back, こんな and このような have the same meaning, こんな being a contraction of このような. Judging by Google, こんな本 is much more common than このような本 (over 2 million hits compared to less than 150,000 hits.) I'd expect to encounter このような in more formal contexts.

[Olsendk]

hey ppl. im pretty new at this side, same goes for japanese, was just wondering what the closest katakana woudt be to the sound la (as in ~ last)? thanks for the help so far :)

[onehp]

what the closest katakana woudt be to the sound la (as in ~ last)?

ラ = ra

->Ignore this. I'm just saying this so I can post and meet the 10 word requirement<-

[Yaoi_Daisuki]

hmm does japanese language have spacing? I see spacing in my japanese textbook, but im not too sure if it is trying to help us understand better by splitting the nouns and stuff or not . .

[Kyuusai]

hmm does japanese language have spacing? I see spacing in my japanese textbook, but im not too sure if it is trying to help us understand better by splitting the nouns and stuff or not . .

Correct. As you'll see in the examples above, spaces don't come between words. After punctuation, perhaps (you'll notice that when typing in Japanese the 。 、「 and 」all have space built in without typing separately), but the words are all crammed together.

It's a bit aggravating when you realize that the only thing standing between Japanese and a completely phonetic writing system is spaces and some simple pitch notation, but that's just the way it is.

[richvh]

Spaces are only used in beginners' materials.

[FatPianoBoy]

You'll occasionally see a dot with the functionality of a space, usually in foreign names like　ディック・クラーク and very rarely between two kanji to separate them, but other than that... no spaces.

[nikorai]

Hello. I was trying to understand the lyrics from the song "sekai ga yumemiru yume no naka". Is it ok to ask for help here? The thing is the whole passage is clear to me except for one phrase which I have trouble understanding.
世界が夢見るユメノナカ

遠い世界で世界で確かに巡り会った
負けないわ限界を
自分で決めないで
広げたい気持ちを感じたら出来る
がんばってみませんか？久しぶりですけど
胸の中はドキドキあの日のまま
わたしはどこなの？
本物のわたしはどこですか？
ナゾが解けない　やっぱりね
一緒なら強くなる　もう大丈夫
ビバビバ
ユメノナカで夢を見て
目覚めれば現実じゃないかも
そしたらここで遊びましょうよ
返事をしてひとりずつ
いないなんてダメ許さないから
思い通りに走り出して
怖がりなんてするわけないよ

そして世界は世界は確かに夢を見てる

This one - 返事をしてひとりずつ
いないなんてダメ許さないから
What does hitori zutsu have to do with henji wo shite and the rest?

[raikage]

hmm does japanese language have spacing? I see spacing in my japanese textbook, but im not too sure if it is trying to help us understand better by splitting the nouns and stuff or not . .

Like others have said, they don't... but it should be fairly easy to read through, once you start understanding kanji.

[SSJiffy]

Hey minna,

I need some audio cds/interactive software that I can use to keep studying what I've learned from four classes of Japanese. Any suggestions or stories out there? Thanks. :]

[FatPianoBoy]

Hey minna,

I need some audio cds/interactive software that I can use to keep studying what I've learned from four classes of Japanese. Any suggestions or stories out there? Thanks. :]
Pimsler (I think that's how it's spelled) and Rosetta Stone are the only things I'd recommend outside of books.

[Kyuusai]

Pimsler (I think that's how it's spelled) and Rosetta Stone are the only things I'd recommend outside of books.

Pimsleur, and I agree wholeheartedly on the recommendation of it. I find their Japanese to be a bit dry compared to their other series, but it's still light years ahead of most of the competition. I'd add to that japanesepod101.com

[FatPianoBoy]

Pimsleur, and I agree wholeheartedly on the recommendation of it. I find their Japanese to be a bit dry compared to their other series, but it's still light years ahead of most of the competition.
True, but I mainly recommend it for developing your accent.

[suzukisayuri]

I thought it would have been done already but alas no. There may be people who are not able to get lessons so here is where you come!! I am still learning japanese and have ALOT more to learn...so I am going to say a few basic things and maybe some other people who speak or are learning it can contribute ^_^!

*~~::Okey a few notes::~~*

++As you most probably know, the japanese people are really big on manners so you have to be careful when you speak.

++Dictionary form verbs (verbs straight from the dictionary) can be rude when your speaking to people, especially elders!

++There are 3 levels of politeness (roughly anyway); there is low (dictionary), medium (the standard which lots of people use) which involves adding "masu" on words (dont worry at the moment) and the highest level of politeness which I don't know much about but adding "gozaimasu" on to the end of arigatou is being really polite ^_^

++There are 4 styles of writing...not sure if i should say styles but anyway...theres is Kanji(typical jap symbols), hiragana, romaji (english letters) and katakana...i only know hiragana at the moment but i will learn the othes eventually.

++This has nothing to do with learning Japanese but i was told by my tutour that if ya have your chop sticks facing somebody it means you want them dead...lol! thats why they have them horizontally.

++In japanese to signify that its the end of the sentence they have "desu".

++Also lots of japanese words like "desu" and "masu" end with "u"...most japanese people dont pronounce the "u" so "desu" spoken would be "des" but of course there are some parts of japan in which they do pronounce it...its your choice. In lots of animes they pronounce the "u" i think they do it coz it sounds cute sometimes ^_^

*~~::Lets start with simple things::~~*
1 = ichi (some ppl say ich)
2 = ni
3 = san
4 = shi/yon
5 = go (o is pronounced like the "o" in rob...soz thats all i can think of)
6 = roku
7 = nana/shishi
8 = hachi
9 = Ku (there is supposed to be a line above the "u"..its pronounced like "q"
10 = jyu

*~~::Greetings::~~*
Hello = kon nichi wa
goodbye = Sayonara (line above the "o")
yes = hai
no = ie (ie also means house ^_^)
thank you = arigato
Pleased to meet you = Yoroshiku (used on this board alot ^_^)
excuse me (attention) = Shitsurei
Sorry = sumimasen or gomenasai or gomen

*~~::NEXT LESSON::~~*...when i have done my homework
Subjects (like people...you, i, mum, etc)
Simple tourist questions
Questions
Days of the week
Animals

*~~::NEXT NEXT LESSON::~~*
alphabets
simple sentence structure
objects (car, window etc)
verbs(dictionary form)

and there will be more lessons which will teach ya how to convert dictionary form verbs to polite form....and also how to change the tense...but lets stick with the basics for now ^_^
P.S i most probably made some mistakes so ya can just tell me and i will fix em ^_^

I don`t agree to you idea
goodbye = Sayonara (line above the "o")
sayonara is only used in the occasion that you are leave you friend for a very long time(at least one month) or you cannot met your friend any more(you are going to leave your country,say sayonara to your girlfriend means you`ll put a end to this love.so you cannot use sayonara in any time,we always use jya,sore jya,jya ne to say goodbye.
Japanese have a type of word which we called it keigo(I do not know what this word in English is),this word are very polite and usually use in canonicity occasion,Japanese is not latin-languege so it is not easy for a English speaking people to study.you are not need to pay to much attention to this manner in speaking because we will comprehend your mean to the best of our abilities,just like my English is poor and you are doing your best to
comprehend my mean,we will very glad to hear that if you can speak Japanese^_^

[Risaa]

*butts in*
Japanese have a type of word which we called it keigo(I do not know what this word in English is),this word are very polite and usually use in canonicity occasion,
"Keigo" has always been left alone in all my grammar books, but I've seen it referred to as "honorifics" for English-speakers who do not yet know what keigo is. :)

*butts out*

[suzukisayuri]

Hello. I was trying to understand the lyrics from the song "sekai ga yumemiru yume no naka". Is it ok to ask for help here? The thing is the whole passage is clear to me except for one phrase which I have trouble understanding.
世界が夢見るユメノナカ

遠い世界で世界で確かに巡り会った
負けないわ限界を
自分で決めないで
広げたい気持ちを感じたら出来る
がんばってみませんか？久しぶりですけど
胸の中はドキドキあの日のまま
わたしはどこなの？
本物のわたしはどこですか？
ナゾが解けない　やっぱりね
一緒なら強くなる　もう大丈夫
ビバビバ
ユメノナカで夢を見て
目覚めれば現実じゃないかも
そしたらここで遊びましょうよ
返事をしてひとりずつ
いないなんてダメ許さないから
思い通りに走り出して
怖がりなんてするわけないよ

そして世界は世界は確かに夢を見てる

This one - 返事をしてひとりずつ
いないなんてダメ許さないから
What does hitori zutsu have to do with henji wo shite and the rest?
ひとりずつ is a adverb which decorate 返事をして this action
this sentence means I will auswer you one question if you ask one
いないなんてダメ許さないから
I cannot understand this sentence exactly,this sentence seems illogical in the context,it means"do not say you are not here,because this word is forbidden" just by the word.

[richvh]

さゆりちゃん、はじめまして。この掲示板へようこそ。英語を直してもいいですか。

I don't agree to you idea.
I don't agree with your idea.
[quote]sayonara is only used in the occasion that you are leave you friend for a very long time
Sayonara (note: capitalize the first word in a sentence) is only used when you are leaving your friend for a very long time.

Other notes: Leave a space before an open parenthesis or a quotation, and after commas and periods.

もっと詳しく訂正できますが、よろしいですか。

[suzukisayuri]

ごめんごめん、あたし不器用だから。。また皆に迷惑かけてしまって、しかも外国に。。。最悪だ
I should pay more attention to my grammar and spelling mistakes!
My teacher always say I am good at vocabulary and pronunciation weak in grammar and writing,but I think foreigner will forgive me because English is not easy for us to learnT_T
However,I have changed my mind now,because it is very impolite to use a foreign language incorrectly.besides,your Japanese is very well,maybe you are better than me.So I should study English more until one day I can speak English smoothly just like you speak Jp.
I have checked this passage for three time...this time should be all right?

[Claymore_Obsessed]

ごめんごめん、あたし不器用だから。。また皆に迷惑かけてしまって、しかも外国に。。。最悪だ
I should pay more attention to my grammar and spelling mistakes!
My teacher always say I am good at vocabulary and pronunciation weak in grammar and writing,but I think foreigner will forgive me because English is not easy for us to learnT_T
However,I have changed my mind now,because it is very impolite to use a foreign language incorrectly.besides,your Japanese is very well,maybe you are better than me.So I should study English more until one day I can speak English smoothly just like you speak Jp.
I have checked this passage for three time...this time should be all right?

my humble opinion:
I don't think your english is that bad so don't worry!
by the way most people won't be bothered by your mistakes and will happily help you, right?
feel free to use english, practice makes perfect ^^

[suzukisayuri]

my humble opinion:
I don't think your english is that bad so don't worry!
by the way most people won't be bothered by your mistakes and will happily help you, right?
feel free to use english, practice makes perfect ^^
that bad ?so bad?
And English is a language,the first letter should be capitalized.
I have found someone who is not very well in English just like me^_^
I donnot think you are coming from an English speaking country...
I think you are an Asian just like me.
So you are a Korean or a Chinese?or an Arabian?

[FatPianoBoy]

Sayuri, most native English speakers can barely speak English, so don't stress too much. Your English isn't completely correct, but it is understandable. Don't ever stop improving, though ;)

[Vexx]

that bad ?so bad?
And English is a language,the first letter should be capitalized.
I have found someone who is not very well in English just like me^_^
I donnot think you are coming from an English speaking country...
I think you are an Asian just like me.
So you are a Korean or a Chinese?or an Arabian?

Don't assume that native writers of English are very good at it.

Seriously.... I'm assuming you're Japanese so listen to the casual speech in Harajuku. Slang, root verbs, and sentences so fragmented I'm not even sure the *speaker* knows the context.

Look at japanese or english "texting" ... O.o :)

There's no particular rule in E/english that the first letter of a language be capitalized - its just a custom (e.g. English, Japanese -- english, japanese).

English is fluid (like Japanese). The grammar is messier in english (because of its history) but both languages import new words just as fast as they are encountered.

You're doing fine ... you keep working on your english and I'll keep working on my Japanese. がんばって、よ　　(feel free to chuckle now :) ).

[suzukisayuri]

I am wondering why English forum have the users all come from the world and our forum have Japanese only,It might because of the language obstacle?
Our culture minister want to sell anime to the world just like Hollywood film,but I think now Japanese comic industry is too much conservative and do not want to absorb foreign culture.In a word,It should be internationalised.
People always say seiyuu is the art of pronunciation in Jp,with the maturation of comic industry seiyuu have doing very well.but just in Jp.Even though many famous seiyuu cannot speak English,
even if sometime they have no choise but to speak English,those words are not English,those are Japanese English.So I want to be a English seiyuu,who can introduce anime to the world^_^
I am good at pronunciation so I want to master the art of speaking English,seiyuu is a fantasic job because they can express many complex and deep affection which cannot be express exactly in people`s normal thought by just voice.However seiyuu is a very hard job and usually be associate with erothic in people`s mind,seiyuu`s salary is comparatively low,thinking of his/her workload.Many girl who become a seiyuu is not for money,just because she love this job,she believes seiyuu is someone who can realize people`s dream,So do I^_^

[suzukisayuri]

thanks for your encouraging me.it is very late in our here ,I should go sleeping,oyasumi,jyane^_^

[Vexx]

@suzukisayuri: I wish you a lot of luck on your quest. I know a few American voice actors -- its very hard work and they often don't get paid much but they find it VERY satisfying work. There's also commercial narration and voice-over work you might consider.

When you say "our forum" I'm guessing you mean whatever japanese language anime forum you use most often. My opinion/guess is just that English is the current "world language" and that it just happens to be a lot of people's second language. In 20 or 30 years, some other language may supercede it as the "common language".

I started learning Japanese a couple of years ago. It is challenging but also quite fun.

Being able to *sound* like a native-english speaker would almost certainly give you an "exotic" edge in japanese anime work. I should alert you that American seiyuu (voice actors) don't usually have any sort of celebrity status in the manner that japanese seiyuu do.

Anyway, welcome to the forum, はじめまして。　よろしく。　　（again, feel free to laugh at my lame attempts at japanese)

[richvh]

さゆりちゃん、大変失礼して申し訳ありません。英語の勉強を手伝うと思いましたけど。訂正が受けたくないな ら、黙っておきます。

私の下手な日本語で間違いを見つけると、いつでも直すことを構いません。多分、書いている「ゆ きの物語」 (http://www.citlink.net/~richvh)という小説を楽しみに読むかもしれません。

[Risaa]

Being able to *sound* like a native-english speaker would almost certainly give you an "exotic" edge in japanese anime work. I should alert you that American seiyuu (voice actors) don't usually have any sort of celebrity status in the manner that japanese seiyuu do. (A little off topic, but there's something I'd like to point out that may help explain this.)

I believe the reason why voice actors in the US don't have quite the same status is that many people still view cartoons and animated material to be for children - and definitely, most still are. Children aren't really as inclined to look up the person who does the voice of their favorite characters. (Or if you were like me, you believed the characters really existed IRL and had no voice actors!) Another (lesser) reason is that quite a few anime fans stick to subbed anime, some exclusively to subs.

はじみました。　よろしく。　　（again, feel free to laugh at my lame attempts at japanese)To get back on topic.... 「はじみました」。。。

「はじめる」conjugates into 「はじめまして」 (or 「はじめました」 if you really do want to go into past-tense) ... Unless there's suddenly a new slangy phrase for "nice to meet you"/"how do you do" I haven't yet heard. :p

[tripperazn]

To get back on topic.... 「はじみました」。。。

「はじめる」conjugates into 「はじめまして」 (or 「はじめました」 if you really do want to go into past-tense) ... Unless there's suddenly a new slangy phrase for "nice to meet you"/"how do you do" I haven't yet heard. :p

I don't think that was a verb conjugation error so much as a typing error. I'm assuming that Vexx, like me, is using an QWERTY keyboard, and the "i" and "e" buttons are both struck by the middle finger, so it's pretty easy to get them confused. I do it all the time.

[Risaa]

I don't think that was a verb conjugation error so much as a typing error. I'm assuming that Vexx, like me, is using an QWERTY keyboard, and the "i" and "e" buttons are both struck by the middle finger, so it's pretty easy to get them confused. I do it all the time.
I figured, but it was also in the wrong tense. :) Besides, I wanted to test if Japanese I type now shows up on the board (and it works, yippee :D ).

...I need to wake up in an hour! 8D *back to kanji studying*

[Vexx]

yep, finger caught in slippage .... though I'd love to have a kana-keyboard. (ambles back to fix it).

There are a handful of American VAs who are "worshipped by a small obsessive group of fans" but other than the late Mel Blanc, average Joe Public couldn't tell you who voiced Yakko Warner or Pinky even if you hung them over a vat of ACME Piranha. In that sense, Japanese voice actors in the anime industry have it much, much better.

Actually, her "jyane" caught my eye..... is that a condensation of "ja mata, ne?" ...

Risaa, Risaa, Risaa .... get away from the damn persocom ;) and study......

[tripperazn]

I figured, but it was also in the wrong tense. :)

...I need to wake up in an hour! 8D *back to kanji studying*

Ugh...I totally missed that.

Are you studying for JLPT?

[Kyuusai]

Actually, her "jyane" caught my eye..... is that a condensation of "ja mata, ne?" ...

You are correct, sir. (Said with the voice of Ed McMahon, but that just doesn't transmit on message boards, sadly.)

As for the VAs, certainly the Japanese recognition tends to be a small group of fanatics, but it's a larger small group of even more dedicated fanatics. The US could really use more of this, I think.

Risaa, Risaa, Risaa .... get away from the damn persocom ;) and study......

As things look now, the forums are the least of her distractions from the books! Our encouragement/scolding seems futile when the subject is so flighty/stubborn/sleepy. :heh:

Remember, folks: Last-minute kanji studying is nightmarish!

[richvh]

yep, finger caught in slippage .... though I'd love to have a kana-keyboard. (ambles back to fix it).

You know, Vexx, you don't need a Japanese keyboard to use the kana input method; you just need to depress the "kana" button at the right end of the language bar (assuming you're using Windows XP.) I use the kana input method just fine on an American keyboard.

[Yaoi_Daisuki]

hey guys, do you guys memorize all those conjugation line thingy?

kika nai
kiki masu
kiku
kikeba
kikoo
kiite

and so on?

man. . . , i still cant read hiragana fast enough ar!!! how long does it take you guys to look at hiragana like alphabets? i mean sure i could id all of them right now, but if someone will to lump a line of it, i will take alittle longer time, and how do u guys see if the hiragana "u" is pronouced as "u" or "o", pure memorizing and exposure work? or is there some sort of trick going on? most of the time is pronouced as o right? i guess its really high time for me to get a japanese dictionary.

although i have yet to proper start kanji stuff, but would like to learn
some of it on my own first too, when do we use each of the pronounication?

wow i just went to this dictionary website, literally i got killed

門弟（もんてい）
兄弟分（きょうだいぶん）
弟子入りする（でしいりする）
末の弟（すえのおとうと）

ok im searching kanji lesson on google =(

[Vexx]

You know, Vexx, you don't need a Japanese keyboard to use the kana input method; you just need to depress the "kana" button at the right end of the language bar (assuming you're using Windows XP.) I use the kana input method just fine on an American keyboard.

ummmm, yeah thats how I do it. I'd *LIKE* to have a japanese keyboard but they're notoriously difficult to acquire outside of Japan (and a bit expensive).

But yeah, I'm usually fighting with the "auto-kanji" feature ... has anyone figured out how to get the stupid language bar to default differently?
I'd rather it came up in "hiragana + no conversion" instead of "direct_input + general conversion".

@Yaoi_Daisuki:
1) Flash cards to get started on the hiragana and katakana (try not to keep converting to romaji in your head... just practice identifying the SOUND from the SYMBOL)
2) Read little kid's books in Japanese.
3) Don't even worry about kanji to start with, but think of them as "shortcut symbols with their own poetic footnotes".
4) Practice every day for an hour or better.

I still forget katakana (my brain insists that there should be only one symbol per sound instead of two) and I only know about a 100 kanji without having to look it up. When I read manga, I usually have a dictionary and a kana-chart handy plus pencil and paper.

Being damned stubborn helps... :)

[richvh]

Yaoi Daisuke - ou or oo = long o; u after any other vowel or any consonant (leaving off consideration of devoicing) = u. I recommend Slime Forest (http://lrnj.com) for practicing the kana. (I'm less enthused with the kanji portion of the program - memorizing kanji meanings in isolation has never struck me as that effective.) This (http://www.his.atr.jp/~ray/stories/) and this (http://www.portals.co.jp/isopp/) are sources of stories in kana. The former has Japanese folktales with page by page vocabulary lists and translations; the latter are translations into Japanese of Aesop's fables.

Edit: As for which pronunciation to use - in general, compounds will tend to use onyomi, and isolated kanji or kanji with okurigana will tend to use kunyomi, but exceptions abound - so study words, not kanji.

Vexx - maybe I should ask my Marine son for a Japanese keyboard as a birthday present (he's stationed on Okinawa until August.)