Marimite S2 Ep.06 (official thread) [Archive]

kj1980

2004-08-08, 02:33

Yes Super Rosa Gigantea indeed makes an appearance, and several times too.

This episode was really heart-warming, even though I read it in the novel, they did a superb job in portraying this chapter in this episode. Too bad there wasn't the scene where Sei unties a first year student's tie when Shimako was taking care of that garden...

However, they really impressed me on how they portrayed the story into three parts: first half from Shimako's point of view, second half from Sei's point of view, and the last from third-person. I was wondering how they were going to do the interchanging points of view as in the novel, but Ms Chiaki (screen writer for this episode) did a fantastic job in making this episode stand out as a preview of what's to come...

Noriko and Touko finally appears in the next episode!! wa-i

kj1980

2004-08-08, 03:00

Nork22

2004-08-08, 04:58

Yay!!!! That was rather nice despite not understanding a lot of it. :heh:

But now I can't wait to see Noriko and Touko!!

oink

2004-08-09, 20:29

It is good to understand japanese.......... I am still waiting for the version with subtitle........ hmm

Hikata

2004-08-09, 21:50

It is good to understand japanese.......... I am still waiting for the version with subtitle........ hmm

Yups, we're working on it. Please be patient.
We have inside problem in Marimite group.
This episode probably wouldnt come out until end of this week or next week.

Here's little info on where we are just now:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=17748

Asynca

2004-08-24, 05:06

By the way, if the dialogue at the preview for the next episode was too fast for you, Yoshino was basically introducing Anton Chekhov's "The Cherry Orchard."

The dialogue went something like this:

Yoshino: "A huge landowner in southern Russia by the name of Madame Ranevskaya lived in Paris with her lover after her husband passed away. However, she was deceived by her lover and decided to return to her old land as her finances depleted. But even that land was put on collateral and it was apparent that bankruptcy hung over her head. This is a story that portrays the fall of the old landed gentry and the aristocracy while seeing the rise of the new bourgeoisie class."

Sachiko: "That is 'The Cherry Orchard,' Yoshino. Please do not give out a preview for a different story"

Shimako: "No, my current heart's intuition is the same as Chekhov's. Good-bye the old life, hurrah to the new!!

Yumi: "Next 'Maria-sama ga Miteru' episode: 'Cherry Blossom' "

Sachiko: "It seems as Shimako will encounter certain turn of events..."

Wai! I thought that Yumi was giving some sort of metaphorical spin on the next episode and Sachiko (it was her speaking?) was just not getting it. I missed the "Chekhov" and "Ranevskaya" reference. Argh! I hate it when katakana isn't English! That's annoying because I thought Yumi was refering to Sei as being Shimako's 'husband' and Noriko as being her 'lover'. I suppose that IS exactly the reference there, but a little more metaphorically than I originally hoped :upset:

Ayumu Kasuga ^oSaKa^

2004-09-04, 00:50

Thanks a LOT! for the EP 06!
We Love You Ayu! ^O^!

baik!

2004-09-04, 08:45

not much to tear up about, but the 'holding hands' part opened the floodgates. *blush*

i would have thought that the white roses meeting story would be all flowery and sweet, but it was completely the opposite! :heh: rather surprised to see sei so shy about something, and so aggresive. but i guess that particular batch of first year students had it rough, eh? yumi-chan with her rocky start with sachiko, yoshino and the yellow rose revolution, and shimako with sei being uncomfortable with her initially.

i enjoyed the interaction between sei and youko. the previous episode helped shape the relationship, and this one added some gravy to it. :p thanks alot for another wonderful episode of marimite, Ayu team! :love:

i have a question, though:
the sachiko/sei showdown in the corridor, sachiko smiles after the encounter. does that mean that the 'shimako as sachiko's souer' event was a devious plan of the red roses? or was the smile a resignation of defeat? shimako explains in season one that she did reject sachiko, so.....

another thing which i have been wondering for a while, recalled this question after seeing the first-years get their rosaries. you have your own rosary, and if you have an onee-sama then you have hers? so for instance, youko would be wearing super rosa chinensis' rosary (i'm assuming she still does), sachiko would be wearing youko's rosary, and yumi-chan would be wearing two (sachiko's and her own)? that would mean that any unattached student who previously had a onee-sama (i.e. shimako at the moment) would ultimately need to wear two rosaries around her neck (one around her wrist, actually :p)? because i recall sachiko whipping out her rosary for yumi at only their second encounter (in the bara no yakata, after yumi got clotheslined)..... she was carrying both her own and youko's rosary? and sei taking a peek into yumi-chan's uniform, no rosary there, which means yumi doesn't wear her own rosary? i'm rather confused. :(

Cichlisuite

2004-09-04, 14:40

I believe there not rosaries, they look like normal necklaces to me.

mintyfresh

2004-09-04, 16:12

I believe there not rosaries, they look like normal necklaces to me.
No, I'm pretty sure they're rosaries. They seem to have all the necesary parts and divisions (mysteries).
The only thing wrong with the whole rosary thing is that everyone (save Shimako) wears it around their neck, which is a big no no (I remember being scolded about that all the time when I was a child :heh: ). But just like how it is in the real world, I'm sure the girls at Lillian don't really care. Unless they're devout Catholics, that is -- then they'd probably know better.

Anyhow, as for the inheritance of rosaries, I'm guessing you only acquire one when you become a person's souer. For example, Yumi's rosary used to belong to Sachiko, which used to belong to Youko, which used to belong to Youko's oneesama, and so on and so forth.

Anyhow, that's how I understand it. ...I hope they wash the things..

This long line of rosary inheritance may not be the case for students out of the Yamayurikai, however. I'm sure there are instances of "first generation rosaries" all the time.

Bracken33

2004-09-04, 18:36

not much to tear up about, but the 'holding hands' part opened the floodgates. *blush*

Hehe, you are "built close to water" :) , as we say here in germany.

the sachiko/sei showdown in the corridor, sachiko smiles after the encounter. does that mean that the 'shimako as sachiko's souer' event was a devious plan of the red roses? or was the smile a resignation of defeat? shimako explains in season one that she did reject sachiko, so.....

I think you are right. I was also wondering if this was planned. But I didn´t see this clear hint when I first watched it.
Don´t know if it was Shimako´s idea or Youko´s.

Anyhow, as for the inheritance of rosaries, I'm guessing you only acquire one when you become a person's souer. For example, Yumi's rosary used to belong to Sachiko, which used to belong to Youko, which used to belong to Youko's oneesama, and so on and so forth.

Well, don´t know if my memory serves me right, but I think kj1980 lighted this up in another thread. If I remember correctly the different rose families or roses have different ways to pass on their rosaries.

Some seem to pass on the same rosary, others buy a new one. So it seems to vary.

I couldn´t find it with a quick search, perhaps you can. Forgot the details...

Hope we can see more of Shimako. I really like this character.

The_Dreamer

2004-09-04, 19:09

Nice job, Ayu. If Youko orchestrated all that then she's even more brilliant than I thought she was. XD New characters next episode, yay!

Portable

2004-09-04, 22:06

Hope we can see more of Shimako. I really like this character.

If there is anything you need to worry about, it is not this. If anything, season two contains too much Shimako. I say this even though I think Shimako is an excellent character. Luckily, episode ten finally focuses on someone else.

mintyfresh

2004-09-04, 22:40

If there is anything you need to worry about, it is not this.
You can say that again.. :heh:
Shimako definitely becomes something of a main character within the next 3 episdoes (Yumi roughly has 2 lines in ep 9). But I believe it's a good thing, seeing as for a good amount of the first season, I was dying to see more of her. Granted, by the end of the Cherry Blossom arc, I was sorta starting to miss Yumi.. So hard to please am I.. ^^;

Well, anyhow, we already know that that's over (on the raw side of things, anyhow), and that the show will go back to focusing on the rest of the cast. What with the next episode being Kibara chuu-i hou, and then ep 11 being Rainy Blue (apparently, it looks like it'll all be smushed into one episode) so the yellow rose and red rose family will get their time in the spotlight, too.

Sharkbark

2004-09-05, 00:19

Too bad there wasn't the scene where Sei unties a first year student's tie when Shimako was taking care of that garden...

Ok, now THIS I have to hear about :heh:

What with the next episode being Kibara chuu-i hou, and then ep 11 being Rainy Blue (apparently, it looks like it'll all be smushed into one episode) so the yellow rose and red rose family will get their time in the spotlight, too.

Aww, is this true? It's kind of a shame, I was hoping that they would take more time with Rainy Blue :\ . I mean I thought it was at least an entire novel for that part alone... I'd hate to see them rush it, especially after spending so many episodes on the graduation arc (which I loved by the way, but it seems slightly less important than Rainy Blue). So far they've done a really good job of everything though, so maybe I should just trust them ^_^; .

Thanks Ayu, great episode as always!

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-05, 00:25

I think you are right. I was also wondering if this was planned. But I didn´t see this clear hint when I first watched it.
Don´t know if it was Shimako´s idea or Youko´s.
IIRC, Shimako rejected Sachiko's offer in the first episode, so when Sei and Sachiko have that confrontation Sachiko's probably already been rejected. If that's the case, then Sachiko's probably just smiling because Sei's finally decided to take in Shimako, whom would become a great asset to the Yamayurikai. But the conversation between Youko and Sei at the school festival seems to point to a sinister plot by a certain member of the roses. :D

Well, don´t know if my memory serves me right, but I think kj1980 lighted this up in another thread. If I remember correctly the different rose families or roses have different ways to pass on their rosaries.

I remember that post as well, though personally I think Sei's just didn't have another rosary on hand since she sort of decided to make Shimako her imouto quite suddenly.

To be honest, I enjoyed ep. 6 quite a lot (much much more than the somewhat boring two episodes before it), even though it's got a lot to do with the snobbish "ha I was right!" moments that I had.

To be honest though, while this episode echoes quite nicely with ep. 11 of first season, some parts are really quite lacking. Similar to ep. 11, it seems that there are just way too many unnecessary inner thoughts spilled here and there, which add nothing but distracting noises to the show.

A lot of lines (particularly the dialogue from Sei and Youko) are spoken way too fast and without feelings, as if the voice actresses are trying to speed through their lines to fit everything into 25 minutes. Sei's explosive angry act feels slightly out of character (though it is understandable why she would act that way); but most disappointingly, the cat scene - which has the potential for some really bittersweet irony - is delivered with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. >_<

The beginning and the ending are really nice though. I really like Shimako's comment on the changing season and such. I particularly like how Shimako is lagging behind Yoshino and Yumi when the three of them are walking. :) Although the whole "new Rosa Gigantea" discussion is again a little too ham-fisted for me.

Overall, I think this is a pretty good episode in the series, though IMHO a lot of its impact requires the viewer to have seen the Shiori episode. It's one major flaw is that there are simply too many scenes and too many dialogues packed in 25 minutes it a lot of them feel rushed and bland.

kj1980

2004-09-05, 03:47

Well, don´t know if my memory serves me right, but I think kj1980 lighted this up in another thread. If I remember correctly the different rose families or roses have different ways to pass on their rosaries.

Yes, but not limited to the roses. All the students at Lillian High have a tradition of soeur system - i.e. Minako-sama and Mami-san in the school newspaper.

atua

2004-09-05, 12:49

IIRC, Shimako rejected Sachiko's offer in the first episode, so when Sei and Sachiko have that confrontation Sachiko's probably already been rejected. If that's the case, then Sachiko's probably just smiling because Sei's finally decided to take in Shimako, whom would become a great asset to the Yamayurikai. But the conversation between Youko and Sei at the school festival seems to point to a sinister plot by a certain member of the roses. :D
Sachiko's already been rejected, since she asked Shimako after the Athletics Festival and the Sei/Sachiko scene occurs on another day (They're back in their school uniforms).

I'm not sure that Sachiko's smile was a knowing smile or a wry smile, but I'm personally leaning towards wry because I think Sachiko was just acting as Youko's (possibly unknowing) pawn in all of this. It's all too easy to imagine Youko subtly "encouraging" Sachiko to ask Shimako as her soeur in order to get a response from Sei. I suspect Youko has been aiming to get Sei to ask Shimako as her soeur from the moment Sei mentioned Shimako's name, especially given Youko's feelings about the whole Shiori affair.

To be honest though, while this episode echoes quite nicely with ep. 11 of first season, some parts are really quite lacking. Similar to ep. 11, it seems that there are just way too many unnecessary inner thoughts spilled here and there, which add nothing but distracting noises to the show.

A lot of lines (particularly the dialogue from Sei and Youko) are spoken way too fast and without feelings, as if the voice actresses are trying to speed through their lines to fit everything into 25 minutes. Sei's explosive angry act feels slightly out of character (though it is understandable why she would act that way); but most disappointingly, the cat scene - which has the potential for some really bittersweet irony - is delivered with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. >_<
Whilst this episode also reminded me of Season 1 Ep 11, it's also act as a prologue and background to the Noriko/Shimako relationship. Episode 9 in particular was very reminicent of this episode.

I guess I can understand that you did not enjoy the voiceovers, since that tends to be a matter of subjective taste (eg Blade Runner vs BR Director's Cut), but I think it works well in this episode because:
1) The voiceover allows the use of the more personal 1st person POV to create dramatic tension between Sei and Shimako, since the audience is only allowed to see one side of the story.
2) It's in character because they're both rather introspective people. (particularly Shimako)
3) It gives the audience some extra insight into the characters. (eg that Sei recognises Shimako as a kindred spirit)

As for Sei's show of anger, I felt that too was *completely* in character for her. The playful, flirtacious, confident Sei that we see most of the time only came about after meeting Yumi. Prior to their meeting, Sei's often moody, abrasive and aloof. In fact, I'm often still surprised by just how much Sei has changed in such a short time.

In addition, Youko was been quite provocative in inviting Shimako. Youko is well aware of just how unusual it is for Sei to take any interest in a kohai; enough interest that Sei bothered to find out the student's name. The only other time this happened was with Shiori. Sei saw this as an unwelcomed inteference by Youko in a personal and potentially painful matter.

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-05, 16:17

After watching the episode for a second time, I've come to the conclusion that: 2AM in the morning is suited for nothing but being comatose. I missed quite a lot of things because of the fatigue.
Whilst this episode also reminded me of Season 1 Ep 11, it's also act as a prologue and background to the Noriko/Shimako relationship. Episode 9 in particular was very reminicent of this episode.
Not so much that this episode reminds me of ep. 11 but rather that I find a number of parallels and quite obvious contrasts between the relationships of Sei with Shiori, Sei with Shimako, and the underplayed (but which annoyed me to no end) Sei with Supa Rosa Gigantea. The mood of this episode, as you've pointed out, is a lot different from Season 1 ep. 11, and has more in common with ep. 9 in both mood and its position in the larger narrative.

As for Sei's show of anger, I felt that too was *completely* in character for her. The playful, flirtacious, confident Sei that we see most of the time only came about after meeting Yumi. Prior to their meeting, Sei's often moody, abrasive and aloof. In fact, I'm often still surprised by just how much Sei has changed in such a short time.
After reading your post and seeing the episode for a second time, I'm beginning to agree with you a lot more. In fact, I find the conversation between Youko and Sei after Shimako has been booted out very characteristic of Sei. What caught me off guard was the intensity, the level of animation and the loudness with which Sei protested Shimako's presence in the room. The explosiveness of her anger reminds me (perhaps quite unduly) of Yoshino in ep. 7 in the 1st season, and not the restrained but sharp anger we've seen from Sei in ep. 11. Though to be honest, the very sudden transition of hot anger, her sudden remembrance of Shiori and the resulting (albeit slightly dramatized) anguish played out really well.

I guess I can understand that you did not enjoy the voiceovers, since that tends to be a matter of subjective taste (eg Blade Runner vs BR Director's Cut), but I think it works well in this episode because:
1) The voiceover allows the use of the more personal 1st person POV to create dramatic tension between Sei and Shimako, since the audience is only allowed to see one side of the story.
2) It's in character because they're both rather introspective people. (particularly Shimako)
3) It gives the audience some extra insight into the characters. (eg that Sei recognises Shimako as a kindred spirit)

I stand by my opinion that quite a bit of the internal narrative is unnecessary. Now don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the quiet introspections in the series (mostly by Sei and Shimako) are simply brilliant. For example, Shimako's reminiscence at beginning of this episode echoes and contrasts with Sei's internal monologue at the beginning of s1 e11, and the effect is not in the least bit lacking.

What I dislike a lot (in both this and s1e11) is the seeming insistence on a coherent time line that finds its way to make unnecessary lines. The best example I can think of: around 14min into this episode, Sei sits by the window and comments "that day, it was really quiet at the Rose Mansion," as if we couldn't see it ourselves. >_< I like hearing Sei and Shimako's reflections (and a lot of them are quite sharp), but sometimes the sentences just drag without any definite purpose. I guess I'm just too much a fan of silence and suggestion in movies/TV programs.

Although, there was a small revelation I had regarding the ending after a second viewing: I was so distraught after hearing the cheesy "new Rosa Gigantea" talk that I missed Shimako's line, "just call me by my name," which has a much, much more personal touch and makes the conclusion a lot more powerful.

It's probably because I'm natrually biased whenever the plot starts to involve Sei, but I find it very exciting that sometimes Marimite can be pretty complicated and ambiguous all of a sudden.

atua

2004-09-05, 17:18

What I dislike a lot (in both this and s1e11) is the seeming insistence on a coherent time line that finds its way to make unnecessary lines. The best example I can think of: around 14min into this episode, Sei sits by the window and comments "that day, it was really quiet at the Rose Mansion," as if we couldn't see it ourselves. >_< I like hearing Sei and Shimako's reflections (and a lot of them are quite sharp), but sometimes the sentences just drag without any definite purpose. I guess I'm just too much a fan of silence and suggestion in movies/TV programs.
Yes, I admit the sort of lines like the example you gave above do seem a bit redundant. I suppose it might've been there to set the mood, but I agree that often silence/or an appropriate soundtrack are more effective in this regard. I also agree that the Goronta scene could've have been handled more delicately as well.

Although, there was a small revelation I had regarding the ending after a second viewing: I was so distraught after hearing the cheesy "new Rosa Gigantea" talk that I missed Shimako's line, "just call me by my name," which has a much, much more personal touch and makes the conclusion a lot more powerful.
You'll like part two of the name saga with Noriko in Ep 9 then, if you haven't seen it already. :)

Göönk

2004-09-06, 02:47

You're very lucky to have the time to analyse if a sentence is ok or off topic or anything. I have to listen to japanese & translate the sub to french :)
Maybe I should watch the series twice?

Ialdaboth

2004-09-06, 11:29

Watching the series only twice ? :eek:

Heretic. :p

mantidor

2004-09-07, 22:43

Watching the series only twice ? :eek:

Heretic. :p
I see each episode only once :uhoh: am I the worst? I only watch it once since I think that repeating an episode or a movie makes you focus on little things that arent that important and is easy to lost the general story, and I couldnt dare to do that ^_^

I dont have a lot to say about this episode except that it was great!

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-08, 01:46

You're very lucky to have the time to analyse if a sentence is ok or off topic or anything. I have to listen to japanese & translate the sub to french :)
Maybe I should watch the series twice?

I wish I could just listen to only the Japanese or be able to translate anything. Really though, most of what I say is simply my own biased opinion; and after you've done my amount of badmouthing movies/books/etc. it takes less than two seconds to say what you don't like about an anime, while trying hard to sound smart. It would take me longer to translate one sentence to French than for me to type up all the messages I've posted on this board. :heh:

Overall, Marimite is neither a terribly complex nor very subtle show. Like most shoujo titles, its strength is in the atmosphere and the mood, and to a certain extent the appeal of its characters. That is why its important to ensure that every dialogue, character movement and visual effect combine to maximize the emotional impact of the show (which is why I like to nitpick the small details).

I've only watched the Sei episodes a few times, obviously because of my Sei obsession. The rest I I've watched only once like many.

Sweets Yumi

2004-09-08, 16:41

MikoKikyo

2004-09-08, 17:36

I just started watching the episode. :( :(

Wow! Youko and Eriko are really terrible to do that to Shimako!!!

If I had been asked to the mansion then attacked like that then shown the door, I would have thought the Rose Mansion and all it's roses were disgusting and mean and would avoid them for the rest of my time at Lillian.

In fact I would have run out crying, I wouldn't even have been able to be 'lead out' by Eriko.

Whatever Seis feelings are are Sei's feelings alone, Eriko and Youko had no right to interfere and no right to do that to Shimako! No right! :( :( :(

I feel so shocked over this whole scene that I stopped watching the episode. :(
I agree that Eriko and Youko were nosy to interfere with Sei's business, but I don't think they had any mean intentions by doing that, and they weren't the ones who caused a scene and expelled Shimako out of the Mansion first ... I mean, Sei was the one who came in yelling and started flipping out. Plus, she was the one who demanded that Shimako leave... Eriko, if I'm not mistaken, then said "do what she just said".

Most importantly, it was Eriko who took Shimako out and apologized to her for the incident, and was then very nice to her (I guess you didn't see this part). :)

JokerD

2004-09-08, 20:10

I won't say that it's right for Youko and Eriko to interfere but at that time at least I belive that what happened with Sei and Shori was still very much on their minds. And maybe Youko did some covert investigating of Shimako to see what kind of person she is.
While it looks really bad at the starting, the results are good I guess, for both Sei and Shimako.
But I do agree that Shimako must have been shocked, poor Shimako.

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-08, 23:05

Well...officially Eriko and Youko are just scouting Shimako to help out at the Yamayurikai. For a first year like Shimako, the attention from the Roses would be more like an honor than an insult or an issue of annoyance. Of course Sei knows what the two of them were up to, but Shimako is still pretty much in the dark. I don't know why Shimako would feel "being attacked" at all, although maybe she would've thought Sei had mental problems. :hmm:

Additionally, it was nice to see more of Youko and Eriko. Youko's mettling mommishness is strengthened yet again and we get to see quite a bit of "smarts" coming from Eriko. Both of them are simply looking out for Sei out of good will.

kj1980

2004-09-09, 00:28

If I had been asked to the mansion then attacked like that then shown the door, I would have thought the Rose Mansion and all it's roses were disgusting and mean and would avoid them for the rest of my time at Lillian.

Interesting to see how the non-Japanese take on to seeing this part. Either you guys are thinking too hard, or that Japanese readers don't even think that way.

To us, we didn't see anything like that in that scene. A first year student was called in to come visit a certain club (in this case - the Yamayurikai) by elder seniors. That's it. Sure there was some intentions, but this nothing to go over that is deemed "shocking" to us - such things occurs everytime when we are at middle and high school.

For example, in high school, I get called in by some elder third year students to come visit a student body. I sit down with them, they give me some tea. After some chit-chat, they explain that they recruited me because of my background and grades, I said "let me think about it." I returned the next day to say "I am sorry, but I cannot join the student body - but I can join several meetings to help out certain events," and they put me onto the school festival association.

The point here is not tertiary sub-points on "how wily Eriko and Youko are" nor "how Shimako-san must've felt bad." The secondary, and more important point here is "Eriko and Youko overheard Sei muttering Shimako's name, and they decided to recruit her into the Yamayurikai." And the primary point the author is making is how Sei and Shimako became soeurs.

Sweets Yumi

2004-09-09, 02:48

Well it wasn't the inviting Shimako to the mansion that was upsetting to me, it was the reason behind inviting her.

They wanted Sei to come in and have a scene.

If you watch Eriko and Youko they are so straight faced and observant, like they are thinking "Ah, it is all going to plan"

And then when the Sei had her say, Shimako was lead out in a almost gloating scene by Eriko. Even though she appoligized, there was no actual remorse in her face.

:( Youko and Eriko really came off as Wicked Stepmothers of fairytales to me in this episode. :(

I don't see why Shimako, who has nothing to do with these people, should have been put through such a scene. Sei may have thoughts towards Shimako, but what about Shimakos feelings? They didn't seem too concerned about hers.

But one thing I've learned from this episode is that Shimako ISN'T fraile. Even though she seems that way, the type (like me) who can easily shatter like glass, she didn't really seemed upset by the event past looking concerned Sei was upset.

But I do have some confusion with Sachiko! In the first season it was said that Sachiko asked Shimako to be her soeur and was turned down. But in this episode Sachiko confronts Sei about her idea to ask Shimako and Sei says Sachiko can't have her, then runs off and gathers up Shimako and offers her her rosary.

So then, if Sachiko never got a chance to ask Shimako, then how could she have been turned down by her??

Also Shimako said she only had a few months before Seu graduates and that she willl be sad but cherish the time they have (the best I remember anyway :) ) So if Sei was all angsty through the previous year with Shiori and at least 1/2 the next year still over Shiori, how on Earth did she evolve into the goof that she ended up being in such a short amount of time?

Did she change the very day Shimako accepted her rosary? That's very bizzare to have such a fast change.

Lastly I'd like to say how I hate Sei's violence, and her pretending to hit Youko made me scared of Sei. :(

Limiter

2004-09-09, 07:11

Lastly I'd like to say how I hate Sei's violence, and her pretending to hit Youko made me scared of Sei.

But Youko didnt even budge! Wow.

lordwu

2004-09-09, 10:45

Well it wasn't the inviting Shimako to the mansion that was upsetting to me, it was the reason behind inviting her.

Why people can't see it from the bright side? Youko was simply wanting to help out a very good friend and she regretted not doing enough when Sei was with Shiori. That is why she seemed to be a bit pushy this time because she felt she was wrong when she held back dealing with Sei/Shiori situation. You make it sound like she deliberately want to make Sei mad or something, which is simply not true. Youko knows Sei and she knows what the backlash would be if she does things like this, and that's why she didn't buldge when Sei was going to slap her. However, she felt doing that is the best for Sei and was willing to take the hit if Sei indeed hits her. Eriko on the other hand, I think, was just waiting to see an interesting event on the sideline.

I don't see why Shimako, who has nothing to do with these people, should have been put through such a scene. Sei may have thoughts towards Shimako, but what about Shimakos feelings? They didn't seem too concerned about hers.

Sometimes you just have to play the bad guy to push things forward. If you complain about this then I believe you don't like how Noriko was treated as well. But you gotta understand that Sei and Shimako are the type that keeps too much to themselves and thinks too much. An extra push is needed to put them back on track before they go rampant. I don't think Youko/Sachiko like to play the parts they have to play to help Sei/Shimako, but at times you gotta do what you gotta do for a friend.

But I do have some confusion with Sachiko! In the first season it was said that Sachiko asked Shimako to be her soeur and was turned down. But in this episode Sachiko confronts Sei about her idea to ask Shimako and Sei says Sachiko can't have her, then runs off and gathers up Shimako and offers her her rosary.

At that point Sachiko has already asked Shimako and got rejected.

Did she change the very day Shimako accepted her rosary? That's very bizzare to have such a fast change.

One reason I think is: Shiori is an angel, Shimako is a human.

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-09, 12:50

Well it wasn't the inviting Shimako to the mansion that was upsetting to me, it was the reason behind inviting her.

They wanted Sei to come in and have a scene.
I'm not sure if that's the case. In fact, they have cancelled a scheduled meeting to have Shimako come over so Sei wouldn't be present.

One reason I think is: Shiori is an angel, Shimako is a human.
What does that mean? :eyespin:

hooliganj

2004-09-09, 13:35

Also Shimako said she only had a few months before Seu graduates and that she willl be sad but cherish the time they have (the best I remember anyway :) ) So if Sei was all angsty through the previous year with Shiori and at least 1/2 the next year still over Shiori, how on Earth did she evolve into the goof that she ended up being in such a short amount of time?

Did she change the very day Shimako accepted her rosary? That's very bizzare to have such a fast change.
Check your timeline on this one. We don't see these girls again in the story until at least September (whenever the culture festival was). 5 months can see a lot of changes in a person's life.

Nequam

2004-09-09, 13:56

I felt the same way Lordwu did when watching this episode -- Eriko and Youko were just being good friends, looking out for their buddy Sei. It struck me as touching more than anything else, and the end result showed just how well Youki knew Sei. Her plans worked perfectly, and I think that Sei would in retrospect be glad that Youko invervened.

One of the reasons I'm so fond of the white roses is because I can identify with them (Noriko notwithstanding) more than any other character I've ever encountered before. And it's in these kind of situations that my friends always come through for me -- when I just don't know what's best for me or take something so seriously that I get bogged down and don't do anything.

Sometimes people like me really DO need a big shove in the right direction, whether or not we appreciate or even realize it. You know you have good friends when they know you better than you know yourself.

Sweets Yumi

2004-09-09, 14:38

Being as extremly sensitive as I am. I have a tough time seeing (what I see as) violent or mean behaviour ever being for anyones own good.

So I guess this episode is just lost to me. :(

I haven't seen Noriko's episodes yet, so I guess I have another shock coming....

I miss the almost dreamyness from Season 1.

Don't mind me or my comments anyone. :innocent: I know my feelings on things are always in the minority.

Nequam

2004-09-09, 16:19

Being as extremly sensitive as I am. I have a tough time seeing (what I see as) violent or mean behaviour ever being for anyones own good.
I can definitely understand that. I guess their approach wasn't exactly subtle... but hey, it turned out alright in the end, didn't it? ;)

I haven't seen Noriko's episodes yet, so I guess I have another shock coming....
While I didn't think anything was wrong with this episode, I was actually kinda miffed by what the Yamayurikai pulled on Shimako and Noriko... so I wonder what you'll think of that episode. They sure love to meddle with the White Rose family!

Don't mind me or my comments anyone. :innocent: I know my feelings on things are always in the minority.
Naw, it's always good to hear another opinion, minority or not ;)

atua

2004-09-09, 20:26

Check your timeline on this one. We don't see these girls again in the story until at least September (whenever the culture festival was). 5 months can see a lot of changes in a person's life.
Actually this isn't quite right. Shimako didn't accept Sei's rosary until after Sachiko asked her at the end of the Athletics Festival, which happens around September. The cultural festival is in (late?) October. Sei sure took her sweet time with this, since Sei met Shimako in spring (in April).

MikoKikyo

2004-09-09, 21:40

Lastly I'd like to say how I hate Sei's violence, and her pretending to hit Youko made me scared of Sei. :(
That's really the part of the incident that bothered me.. It didn't seem unnatural for Youko and Eriko to call Shimako over or to try to set her up as Sei's prospective soeur, but in no way did any of what they did seem to justify the scandal that Sei made. Maybe it's just a cultural thing, but it seems to me that Sei went way overboard in the intensity of her shouts and fierceness of her anger.

But again, in tv shows and movies it's not uncommon for characters to add an extra share of drama to their emotional reactions... In this case though, the drama was inordinate imo, so much that I almost went back to see if there was another motivation behind Sei's anger I was missing out on :rolleyes:

mintyfresh

2004-09-09, 21:49

Lastly I'd like to say how I hate Sei's violence, and her pretending to hit Youko made me scared of Sei. :(

Huh.. i didn't really take that scene that way, to be honest. The way i saw it, Sei was only just about ready to slap Youko, but couldn't bring herself to actually do it.

..or maybe that's just me.

Jon-o

2004-09-09, 23:33

Huh.. i didn't really take that scene that way, to be honest. The way i saw it, Sei was only just about ready to slap Youko, but couldn't bring herself to actually do it.

..or maybe that's just me.

I didn't see it quite that way - more that she had just been brought to the point where she completely lost it, and was ready to thwack a friend, but caught herself just in time. In fact, it seemed that Youko was TRYING to bring things to that point, knowing that Sei wouldn't realize how destructive her attitude was until she almost hurt someone . . . Interesting how they interact.

I really like the fact that we were left in the dark about all this through the whole first season though. Most of the show so far has just been about 4 or 5 months, and some background to it.

Nequam

2004-09-09, 23:43

I think it's very interesting how everyone's got a different take on this scene...

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-10, 03:34

That's really the part of the incident that bothered me.. It didn't seem unnatural for Youko and Eriko to call Shimako over or to try to set her up as Sei's prospective soeur, but in no way did any of what they did seem to justify the scandal that Sei made. Maybe it's just a cultural thing, but it seems to me that Sei went way overboard in the intensity of her shouts and fierceness of her anger.

But again, in tv shows and movies it's not uncommon for characters to add an extra share of drama to their emotional reactions... In this case though, the drama was inordinate imo, so much that I almost went back to see if there was another motivation behind Sei's anger I was missing out on :rolleyes:
I had the exact reaction when I first saw it. I too felt that Sei was overreacting as well.

However, there are a few speculations that may explain why Sei was so angered:

For one, Shiori has left for less than half a year; Sei's attraction to Shimako is not something that she would like to admit. In this episode Sei had repeatedly avoided Shimako even though she had definitely registered Shimako on her radar, so to speak (under the tree in the beginning, at the chapel when the first years received their necklace, etc.). It is likely that Sei is feeling guilty for having felt Shimako in a similar way she felt Shiori, and her anger comes from the frustration that the other two Roses are forcing onto her what she's trying deliberately to avoid.

Secondly, even though the Roses are friends, I have felt that there is a certain sense of rivalry beneath all the closeness. Sei and Eriko became aquainted with each other through a fight; Sei and Youko repeatedly clashed with each other through the Shiori year; Youko thought that if she broke down at the graduation Sei and Eriko would laugh instead of coming to her aid, etc. The Roses are obviously talented student leaders, and as such there seems (at least to me) that they're always competing with each other under the table to see who is the best. It is a friendly competition, but a competition nonetheless. If that is true, then Youko's and Eriko's action would likely be seen by Sei as an act of transgression and condescension.

Interestingly, in this particular scene Sei is not consciously aware of the parallel between Shiori and Shimako until she actually blurbs it out. After that, her anger (and perhaps more) becomes more internalized (her would-be-slap notwithstanding) and this is shown quite visibly in the anime. It is perhaps at this point that Sei changes her attitude about Shimako and Shimako's potential role in the Student Council.

There is something that I don't fully understand and I would like a little input from all of you guys:

When Sei says, "Shiori, to me, you were an angel; but Shimako is human," what does she mean?

atua

2004-09-10, 03:49

When Sei says, "Shiori, to me, you were an angel; but Shimako is human," what does she mean?
Sei clearly had Shiori on a proverbial pedastal. Shiori was like an ideal for Sei; an eternally beautiful but ultimately untouchable and somewhat distant being. This was undoubtedly part of the attraction. Shimako also exuded some of that etherealness, but was also a lot more earthly, more accessible and someone whom Sei can relate to.

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-09-10, 07:03

Sei was more angry with herself than Youko.

It stems mostly from Shimako's likeness to Shiori.

How would you feel if I dragged a someone who looked like your dead fiancee into your pressence?

Not very pleasant, I assume.

Bracken33

2004-09-10, 10:25

The_Dreamer

2004-09-10, 16:52

Hm, I also thought Sei overreacted a bit to seeing Shimako there. After watching it again though, I thought that maybe Sei was upset that Shimako had been brought into the Yamiyurikai just because she let her name slip. Which of course only seems to be part of it. Shimako's a reminder of Shiori and Sei felt (and rightly so) that Youko and Eriko had no right to do that. Maybe they didn't, but it pushed Sei in the right direction. So I'm forever convinced that Youko is one brilliant woman. XD Eriko was there to be a spectator I think.

I don't think the relationship between the Roses is competitive. When Youko said that Eriko and Sei would probably burst out laughing if she had reacted like Sachiko...Well, they probably would burst out laughing but I'd still like to think that they'd help Youko out. It reminded me alot of my own friends. We're always joking around but when it comes to serious stuff we'd stick together. Honestly, though. The Roses seem too different to have anything to compete over. They've all got their own thing they're good at.

JokerD

2004-09-10, 21:01

How fast did Sei change from the moody anti-social person seen in this ep to the person we see in ep 1 s1? From this ep I gather that Sachiko asked Shimako to be her soeur somewhere in Oct and the S1ep1 was somewhere in Nov-early dec (I could be wrong) Did Sei begin to change after Shimako came into the picture? Or did she put on the mask somewhere within a month's time or just for Yumi's benefit?

hooliganj

2004-09-11, 02:19

Isn't it still Spring when Sei pops the question? Maybe I misunderstood.

Regardless, I think Sei is just a person who is really direct and forward when displaying her emotions. If she wants to go after Shiori, then by Jove she's going to chase Shiori, if she wants to be by herself for a while, then by Jove she's going to be alone, and if she wants to grope Yumi, then by Jove she's going to cop a feel. :p

All of the different aspects of her personality that we've seen fit her character just fine, she's just the sort of person who doesn't really have a middle ground. While she was depressed and angry, she withdrew and lashed out at people, now that she's in a good mood, she teases people and freely dispenses her sage advice. I don't really see a big change there.

alunde

2004-09-11, 23:14

Regardless, I think Sei is just a person who is really direct and forward when displaying her emotions.

And she probably wishes the rest of the world was more like her...

If you imagine several of the marimite characters as aspects of one personality, you get someone with a very messed up mind...

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-09-14, 01:41

Sei clearly had Shiori on a proverbial pedastal. Shiori was like an ideal for Sei; an eternally beautiful but ultimately untouchable and somewhat distant being. This was undoubtedly part of the attraction. Shimako also exuded some of that etherealness, but was also a lot more earthly, more accessible and someone whom Sei can relate to.
Bwahahahahaha. :bow: I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when I saw that: Shiori being "like an angel," you know, from up in the sky; and Shimako being more "earthly," and more attuned to the plants (gingko, the garden, sakura, etc.). I wonder who can fill the "human" position. :p

If you imagine several of the marimite characters as aspects of one personality, you get someone with a very messed up mind...
That's why we have 6+ billion people on Earth. ;)