Marimite S2 Ep.08 (official thread) [Archive]

kj1980

2004-08-22, 13:57

As a reader of the novel, I was rather disappointed. They shouldn't have combined the two chapters "Ichou no Naka no Sakura" and "BGN" into this one episode. The reason why the novel excelled at this was because "Ichou~" and "BGN" were two chapters that corrollate each other as front and back. Putting these two chapters together into one episode made me feel that this episode was hastily put together...especially at the scene of St. Mary's Religious Trials. It made it less interesting to see what was going on behind the scenes ("BGN" chapter) at the trials.

They cut the scene where Yumi asks Mami-san to help out the event. I think non-novel readersvwill be confused why Mami-san is there assisting behind Shimako without explaining this...

Come to think of it, Touko-chan didn't even say "You look better on this!" when she pulled out the juzu-beads at St. Mary's Religious Trials. Nor did Shimako shout nor did Noriko fall down.

On the plus side, they did give a good foreshadowing of Sachiko and Yumi's relationship with "half-day date at the amusement park." But by the looks of it, "Rainy Blue" is still at least two episodes away...

So, going by the book, it looks like the subsequent anime episodes will be something like:

Episode 8: "Rosario no shizuku"
Episode 9: "Kibara Chuu-i hou"
Episode 10: "Rainy Blue Pt. 1"
Episode 11: "Rainy Blue Pt. 2"
Episode 12: "Parasol o Sashite Pt. 1"
Episode 13: "Parasol o Sashite Pt. 2"

Shigan

2004-08-22, 16:43

mintyfresh

2004-08-22, 16:46

As a reader of the novel, I was rather disappointed. They shouldn't have combined the two chapters "Ichou no Naka no Sakura" and "BGN" into this one episode. The reason why the novel excelled at this was because "Ichou~" and "BGN" were two chapters that corrollate each other as front and back. Putting these two chapters together into one episode made me feel that this episode was hastily put together...especially at the scene of St. Mary's Religious Trials. It made it less interesting to see what was going on behind the scenes ("BGN" chapter) at the trials. "

ah.. I had a feeling things were becoming a little rushed in this episode. Granted, since I've never read the novels, nothing really looked too hasty to me, but considering he acceleration of the new budding relationships (nameli Shimako and Noriko's), I can tell that the writers are trying to get to another part of the story fast.. (huh..they seem to be squeezing in quite a bit in this season.. ^^; )

They cut the scene where Yumi asks Mami-san to help out the event. I think non-novel readersvwill be confused why Mami-san is there assisting behind Shimako without explaining this...

I was wondering about that. I remember thinking to myself when I saw that scene, "what the heck is SHE doing there...??" :eyebrow:

Nequam

2004-08-22, 17:52

Oh wow, this season is really starting to pick up the pace! While I share the sentiment that things might be moving a bit quickly, relative to the leisurely tempo we've all grown accustomed to, another part of me realizes that I'd probably be pulling my hair out in anticipation every week if they moved any slower than this... :)

So in the end, both sides cancel out and I'm left happy as usual. And I'm so glad that Shimako is finally getting the attention she deserves this season! :love:

As long as they keep spending big money animating drill hair, I don't think I can keep hating Touko for long.
LOL I can't agree more. The bounciness of Touki's drills never ceases to amaze me... and I can't help but feel a deep and curious desire to touch them every time I see her. :o

lordwu

2004-08-22, 18:10

As a reader of the novel, I was rather disappointed. They shouldn't have combined the two chapters "Ichou no Naka no Sakura" and "BGN" into this one episode. The reason why the novel excelled at this was because "Ichou~" and "BGN" were two chapters that corrollate each other as front and back. Putting these two chapters together into one episode made me feel that this episode was hastily put together...especially at the scene of St. Mary's Religious Trials. It made it less interesting to see what was going on behind the scenes ("BGN" chapter) at the trials.

I agree. The tension created by separating different views was just simply not there. I was afraid of that happening from the beginning but believed they can do it right after the Sei/Shimako episode. But this is really quite a let down. It's still a nice episode but by telling the story at a 3rd person view only, emotion is somewhat lacking.
And Touko should be more evil! I actually hated her when I read the Cherry Blossom and the following Rainy Blue. But I don't feel that there will be enough hate for Touko in the anime. :P

Episode 8: "Rosario no shizuku"
Episode 9: "Kibara Chuu-i hou"
Episode 10: "Rainy Blue Pt. 1"
Episode 11: "Rainy Blue Pt. 2"
Episode 12: "Parasol o Sashite Pt. 1"
Episode 13: "Parasol o Sashite Pt. 2"

Well, episode 8 is already aired. So that left us with 5 more episodes. So my guess would be the last 3 episodes covering Rainy Blue and Parasol o Sashite.

lordwu

2004-08-22, 18:21

What was the whole thing with the beads about anyway? Is it forbidden to be a buddhist in Lillian or what?

And yeah, why was Mami there helping out? I kinda just guessed that they needed someone and picked her at random since they lack manpower O_o

As Sachiko said after the "play", there's nothing wrong with being a buddist and attending Lillian at the same time. It's just Shimako herself being too hard on herself. Part of the reason why she thinks that way wasn't told in the anime I think. Shimako's father made a bet with Rei's grandfather on when Shimako will reveal her background. So he told Shimako to keep that a secret at school and Shimako actually took his words to heart....

Mami's being there is not just a random pick. She made a deal with the Yamayurikai members to help out. Not every student would like to do that since they are generally intimidated somewhat by the Yamayurkai members.

Sweets Yumi

2004-08-22, 19:16

Do we know for sure that this season will only have 13 episodes?

lordwu

2004-08-22, 19:58

Do we know for sure that this season will only have 13 episodes?

Yes. There will be 6 DVDs for the 2nd season and each DVD will have 2 episodes other than vol.6, which will have 3 episodes. Hence the 13 episodes count.

kj1980

2004-08-23, 02:09

I agree. The tension created by separating different views was just simply not there. I was afraid of that happening from the beginning but believed they can do it right after the Sei/Shimako episode. But this is really quite a let down. It's still a nice episode but by telling the story at a 3rd person view only, emotion is somewhat lacking.

Exactly. The brilliance of the way the novel was written was how the first part showed from the perspective of Shimako and Noriko, while the "background noise" second half showed the same perspective from the members "in the background" (the other bara-no-yakata members). It also lessened the fact that the whole "Ichou no naka no Sakura" was actually the first written chapters of "Maria-sama ga Miteru"

Episode 6 "Kata te dake tsunaide" did an excellent job of showing from Shimako's view and Sei's view of how they met...I was rather disappointed that they didn't do the same for the entire "Cherry Blossom" part...but I guess I should cope with that since it is a concern for time constrained episodes.

And Touko should be more evil! I actually hated her when I read the Cherry Blossom and the following Rainy Blue. But I don't feel that there will be enough hate for Touko in the anime. :P.

I agree once again. I despised Touko when I first read the novel. Her first impression was a mischievous, wily and usurper. However, by the way Ms. Konno Oyuki writes it, her whole appearance went 180 degrees within me from one of my least favorite characters into one of the lovable characters mid-way in "Parasol o Sashite."

I was hoping that the anime would give that same impression and the same "turn-of image" to non-novel readers, but I felt that the anime didn't do that. Perhaps they might make up for it in the first part of "Rainy Blue," but as I said, first impressions are important...and Touko-chan was less evil in her primary appearance which I found it to be lacking.

Well, episode 8 is already aired. So that left us with 5 more episodes. So my guess would be the last 3 episodes covering Rainy Blue and Parasol o Sashite.

Ah, touche. It should've been:

Episode 9: "Rosario no shizuku"
Episode 10: "Kibara Chuu-i hou"
Episode 11: "Rainy Blue Pt. 1"
Episode 12: "Rainy Blue Pt. 2~Parasol o Sashite Pt. 1"
Episode 13: "Parasol o Sashite Pt. 2"

Of course I wonder where they will cut off where Sachiko leaves Yumi crying in the rain

Shigan

2004-08-23, 08:28

Of course I wonder where they will cut off where Sachiko leaves Yumi crying in the rain

As long it's not in episode 13's 22th minute followed up with a big "TO BE CONTINUED", I'll be very happy ^^;

SleeplessHeart

2004-08-23, 11:44

atua

2004-08-23, 14:47

I'm wondering if anyone (maybe someone who's read the novels) can explain why Noriko calls Shimako "Shimako-san" instead of the customary Rosa Gigantea or "Shimako-sama". Is it because she's unaware of the convention since she's a new student or is there another reason?

kj1980

2004-08-23, 15:40

While Touko has gained some popularity here due to her unique 'drill' hairs, I feel that Noriko is the worst character art design in Marimite. Her personality is supposed to be 'innocent' and 'shy' which is not fully reflected in her drawing.

I guess this is part to do with yet another difference from stemming from Japanese culture.

Noriko’s original character designs done by Hibiki Reine is actually quite well portrayed in the anime. As described by Konno Oyuki, Nijou Noriko’s appearance is “similar to an ichimatsu-ningyo.” An ichimatsu-ningyo is a traditional Japanese doll with an okappa hair (hair cut straight across the forehead)

Several examples of an ichimatsu-ningyo doll:

http://www.h3.dion.ne.jp/~itima/
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~nc9y-hsi/Ichimatsu/Ichimatsu.htm

I'm wondering if anyone (maybe someone who's read the novels) can explain why Noriko calls Shimako "Shimako-san" instead of the customary Rosa Gigantea or "Shimako-sama". Is it because she's unaware of the convention since she's a new student or is there another reason?

Hopefully, if the anime follows the novel, that question maybe answered in the next episode.

lordwu

2004-08-23, 15:55

While Touko has gained some popularity here due to her unique 'drill' hairs, I feel that Noriko is the worst character art design in Marimite. Her personality is supposed to be 'innocent' and 'shy' which is not fully reflected in her drawing.

I don't get the feeling that Noriko is "shy" or "innocent" from the novel. She is withdrawn because she doesn't want to be at Lillian and doesn't want to be involved in anything else other than studying to get into a good university. By no means is she "shy". In fact, it's quite the opposite. She is quite straight forward in her action and words. An evident of this is how she acted when Sachiko and Rei came to "evaluate" her in this episode. You will see more of this in the next episode.

lordwu

2004-08-23, 15:57

Noriko’s original character designs done by Hibiki Reine is actually quite well portrayed in the anime. As described by Konno Oyuki, Nijou Noriko’s appearance is “similar to an ichimatsu-ningyo.” An ichimatsu-ningyo is a traditional Japanese doll with an okappa hair (hair cut straight across the forehead)

Shimako + Noriko = Western doll + Japanese doll. :)

Noriko herself thinks she doesn't look right next to Shimako because of that image. However, I myself think they look great together.

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-08-23, 17:14

I severely detested how Touko treated that Buddhist beads.

I'm not a Buddhist myself, but you do not throw a religious item disrespectfully like that.

Sean Gaffney

2004-08-23, 17:31

I severely detested how Touko treated that Buddhist beads.

I'm not a Buddhist myself, but you do not throw a religious item disrespectfully like that.

Yeah, I'm a big Touko fan, but suddenly find myself completely alone in that. ^^;; I hope the novel fleshed her out a little more as opposed to what we saw in the episode. I still like Touko, but that's more for a 'I like characters that everyone hates' stubbornness, I admit... kj1980, did the novel have Touko really being this... um... rough?

Kyouji

2004-08-23, 19:14

Yeah, I'm a big Touko fan, but suddenly find myself completely alone in that. ^^;; I hope the novel fleshed her out a little more as opposed to what we saw in the episode. I still like Touko, but that's more for a 'I like characters that everyone hates' stubbornness, I admit... kj1980, did the novel have Touko really being this... um... rough?I don't mean to be rude by trying to answer your question to kj1980, but I believe both he and lordwu have mentioned how Touko is actually not portrayed as evil (is that too strong a word?) as she is when she first appeared to be in the novels. They've both commented on how they detested Touko at first, before some event(s) altered their perception of her, causing a 180 degree change in their opinion of her.

I personally didn't like Touko much at first based off of just her design, but after I found out that she was going to be voiced by Rie Kugimiya (my favourite seiyuu), I had no choice but to love her. I hope to read the novels later and find out just how mean she was in there though...

atua

2004-08-24, 05:07

Shimako + Noriko = Western doll + Japanese doll. :)

Noriko herself thinks she doesn't look right next to Shimako because of that image. However, I myself think they look great together.
OMG, I've always thought of Shimako as a French doll, with her exquisitely beautiful wavy curls! And now we've got Noriko to complete the doll set. :) And yes, they do look very good together.

Shigan

2004-08-24, 06:17

I'm actually quite disappointed in Touko, somehow, I imagined her to be far more usurper and evil than the anime has made her this far. ^^;

overfiend

2004-08-24, 08:22

Touko is after Sachiko, right?

Hikata

2004-08-24, 14:11

Touko is a distant Relative of Sachiko.
But let's just be patient with whatll happen later on the episode :D

Proto

2004-09-29, 17:09

Most are already aware of this, but Ayu's release for this chapter is already out.

Thank you Ayu, we all love you :D

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-09-29, 17:23

Ahh episode 8, in which...

Sachiko and Rei get a power trip and Touko blatantly steals.

Shimako sure has great peers in the rose council. heh...

The_Dreamer

2004-09-29, 21:56

Touko is just so...evil. It makes me giddy. XD While she does have some pretty good intentions she goes about things in entirely the wrong way. Man, it's gonna be so fun to watch how she'll change.

I was pretty shocked when she took the juzu though. Talk about taking things to the extreme. It was even worse when she threw it in the air. -_- Nice catch, Rei. Shimako seems to take things a little to seriously, too. The entire time I was asking myself, "What's the big jizz about being a buddhist?" That whole thing makes alot more sense after reading all your posts.

Hehe. I'm guessing Noriko and Touko have a love/hate sort of friendship. What fun. ^^

IntrepidAKP

2004-09-29, 22:40

Can't wait to watch it. I needed a series to hold me out 'til the next episodes of Initial D, but now I'm thinking I need a series to hold me out 'til the next episode of Marimite.

Sharkbark

2004-09-30, 00:05

Wow... this episode was definitely dramatic, but... maybe a little too intense for me XD . I mean it's very different from the rest of the series because everything goes so fast, and everyone's characters are so extreme. My head was spinning at the end. I was really shocked at how horribly mean Rei and Sachiko are in this episode. I'm not one of the ones who was ever shocked at Youko and Eriko's behavior, even in the Sei/Shimako episode, but I think Rei and Sachiko really took things way too far. Admittedly though Touko probably helped that a lot.

Anyway I feel like even if things really were to help Shimako in the end, that was a really cruel way of making her reveal her secret. Even if everyone accepts you the emotional trauma from something like that can be very intense. I can sort of relate just because I'm lesbian and being "outted" as they say (people finding out you are homosexual without you wanting them to) is not fun at all, and I'd be extremely hurt if one of my friends did that to me, even if it did go over well.

hooliganj

2004-09-30, 00:29

IntrepidAKP

2004-09-30, 01:38

This episode came across kind of wierd. Not sure why besides the huge witch hunt display just to get Shimako to admit she's from a Buddhist family. Well, I'm still looking forward to a trip to the amusement park.

kj1980

2004-09-30, 02:41

Now that I've seen the rest of the story, I have my impressions of the new characters.

Noriko is pretty cool. She's just the kind of strong-willed and steady companion that Shimako needs. Touko, however, is a spy, a thief, a schemer, and a trouble-maker... and my new candidate for favorite character. Things are going to be even more interesting now that she's around.

BTW...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/hooliganj/Kanako.jpg
Is that Kanako? She's tall enough, but doesn't quite look the same as all the pictures I've seen.

Compare it and decide it for yourself with Hibiki Reine's official drawing. Here are the "Introduction of Characters" from "Maria-sama ga Miteru Vol. 18 - Tokubetsu de nai Tada no Ichinichi" novel:

http://www.boomspeed.com/kj1980/MM_chara_vol18.jpg

Kensuke

2004-09-30, 04:15

If this keeps up, Noriko will be my favorite character, before she appeared I saw some images of her and thought that she is kind of über-shy, sad eyed girl, but I'm happy that what I thought she would be was wrong, she does have temper.
Touko on the other hand is just annoying...

That scene of Shimako and Noriko under tree when they hugged and camera spinned around them was just beatiful.

I was really shocked at how horribly mean Rei and Sachiko are in this episode. I'm not one of the ones who was ever shocked at Youko and Eriko's behavior, even in the Sei/Shimako episode, but I think Rei and Sachiko really took things way too far. Admittedly though Touko probably helped that a lot.
Touko planned it from the beginning, so all the blame is on her.

Italicus

2004-09-30, 05:05

:love: Thumbs up for what kensuke said.

Bracken33

2004-09-30, 10:02

I also thought Rei and Sachiko are behaving a bit strange. The way they handled it was not very sensitive.
Perhaps this is because the story felt to be constructed.
Shimako and Noriko seem to be very afraid to be buddhists at a catholic girl school and the possible resulting consequences. But everybody else seems to know that it is not a big deal.
An intelligent person like Shimako should have known this too...
Perhaps it is because she promised her parents not to tell anyone.

I really liked this episode. Lots of things happening. Noriko and Touko are great additions to the serial.
Touko:"That was fun! I was the perfect villain." :heh:

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-09-30, 12:02

Since Youko left the hen house Sachiko felt she HAD to do something as the current Rosa Chinensis. It's combination of pressure and a power trip.

I believe she tried to manipulate things Youko style, but she just doesn't have that smoothness yet.

baik!

2004-09-30, 12:40

just watched it, and it was rather difficult to watch. i was just bothered by the way the yamayurikai dealt with this matter. while watching, i kept visualising the girls as thugs... (especially sei when she was 'checking out' noriko)

i have the same views as takemi_izazuchi, sachiko tried to do a 'youko' but i think she failed, to a certain extent. i'd never condone stealing of any kind. the laughter after the st mary's ceremony felt rather dirty. i'm pretty shocked, my image of a delicate and articulate yamayurikai has burst into pieces. :(

if kj1980 and lordwu think that they hated youko more in the novel, i'd cringe to think of how i'd feel about her if i read the novels. i think she's a class A b*tch, and that's being kind. grrrr...... it's the eyes, i tell you, the eyes....

on to the good parts now, the bad parts are depressing. i think that the hug count in this episode alone beats the whole of season one!!! YAY! teared up when shimako-san hugged noriko behind the hall, and teared up even more when yumi-chan lept into sachiko's arms! omg beautiful! :love: but i get a bad feeling after reading someone's post in this thread, something bad will happen during the date? oh no, yumi and sachiko........ :( please don't tell me what it is!

i wish kanako was in this season, then i'd have more love love stuff to feel good about. and die touko plz. (for now)

guest

2004-09-30, 13:55

Warning: long post ahead. :)

I honestly don’t understand all this condemnation of “stealing Noriko’s juzu/personal belongs, bullying Noriko to test her.” I think the more important questions are:

Without stealing that juzu, is this plan going to work?
Answer: not even close. The plan died before it even started.

Without using such drastic tactic, is Shimako ever going to reveal the secret by herself?
Answer: NOT IN A MILLION YEARS. She is too uptight and too conscious about herself.

Without revealing this secret, would it be possible for Shimako to be happy?
Answer: NO WAY!!!! We already see this all the way back from the first season. Shimako keeps distance from everyone and is gloomy most of the time.

So there are two things at stake:

On one hand: break the Commandment of “Thou shalt not steal.”
On the other hand: save your friend from the eternal torment over something that really should not have been such a big deal.

For me, I will choose the later if that friend is worthy. I am telling you, it takes true friends to go such extent to give you a make up call when you just dwell in a hole you dug for yourself. Obviously, Shachiko and Rei don’t even consider doing things like this under most circumstances. But they did it for Shimako. That’s just show how much they really care for her and are willing to stand by her no matter what. I don’t know about you ppl. But I do know that if I have such kind friends ( kind as in “ they will do whatever it takes to help you), I am eternally grateful and will stick to them as long as I live.

As for Rei and Sachiko, they truly are courageous. It is extremely difficult to go this far, even if you are only doing this for someone you really care. Not Rei and Sachiko. They were too elegant to do so. Image the public humiliation and condemnation they would receive and they are such fine and well-behaved ladies. Just look at this thread and see how many ppl here are angry or do not accept their conduct. Sachiko and Rei risk all this for Shimako.

For me, Sachiko and Rei have proven that they are truly ladies, who know the right thing to do and are not afraid to do it no matter what. Shimako did not disappoint them, either. If shimako had gone mad for what they did to her, despite of their good intention, you really think Sachiko and Rei would do this again for her when she faces other problem? Then Shimako loses friends who would really help her and point out her mistakes when necessary. Be aware, ppl like this are prone to become arrogant/ignorant because there is nobody around to tell them what they did is wrong. No matter how smart you are, everyone makes mistakes. We are only humans.

Sometimes ppl care too much about “what would ppl think of me if I do this or if I say that? Sometimes when ppl think that “how could my friends do this to me? It’s humiliating!” Actually, it’s just the thinking of losing faces when their friends do that, translation: losing face is more important than understanding how much your friends have done for you and how things really don’t have to be like this if you just take a step forward and realize this. They actually save you from making a terrible mistake.

That's what I think.

The_Dreamer

2004-09-30, 14:26

Awesome. I agree with guest on all counts. It was really a "do the means justify the ends?" sort of thing. It worked out this time but I bet it all could've been settled with someone (besides Sei and the other roses) telling Shimako that it was okay to be from a Buddhist background. But so it goes.

Sachiko as Youko? Mmm, maybe. I think Youko appeared to be more sincere when she meddled though. Just my take.

Touko planned it from the beginning, so all the blame is on her.

Like I said, Touko does have good intentions...She just doesn't act on them in the nicest way. XD She's so much fun~

mantidor

2004-09-30, 14:55

Nice episode, I cant take sides on the matter of the stealing juzu, but the end results were fine, so no complains there. I kind of understand Shimako, since in my school (boys catholic school... I know it sounds like heaven but it wasnt! >_<! ) its mandatory to be catholic, and I mean the whole family, so although my dad is a die hard atheist he said he was catholic to avoid problems. I know that the situation of Shimako is different, more like a "coming out", but I can relate to that too, I have my experience with religious matters and also with having to hide things.

I know, a mantis who goes to a school... mind boggling O_o!

hooliganj

2004-09-30, 15:06

Compare it and decide it for yourself with Hibiki Reine's official drawing. Here are the "Introduction of Characters" from "Maria-sama ga Miteru Vol. 18 - Tokubetsu de nai Tada no Ichinichi" novel:

http://www.boomspeed.com/kj1980/MM_chara_vol18.jpg
Yeah, that's pretty much the same. I suppose since she's just an unnamed background character in this episode, it might just be that she didn't get enough detailed attention. She doesn't have the swept back hair or depressed look on her face that seem to be her trademarks. I suppose we might get a flashback to part of the ceremony from her point of view later, when she begins to take a more important role in the story.

As for power tripping? It's not like they accomplished anything besides making Shimako open up a bit more. If there had been any other reason involved besides helping a friend, then what they did would have been pretty bad, but the motive makes it acceptable. It's not like they did any real damage, either.

Touko, on the other hand, doesn't really know Shimako or Noriko all that well, so I suspect she's just the kind of person who likes to make a scene. :D

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-09-30, 16:11

Next episode spoiler

As far as I'm concerned they didn't solve the REAL problem which will be revealed in next episode.

Sachiko is simply bad at reading people.

Noriko

2004-09-30, 17:10

Next episode spoiler

As far as I'm concerned they didn't solve the REAL problem which will be revealed in next episode.

Sachiko is simply bad at reading people.

The fact that the problem wasn't solved proves Sachiko is not able to act as her soeur used to....
i could'nt agree more: she's bad at reading people, and thus, bad at dealing whith them.. (we can see it later too )

Concerning Rei now, I was a bit shocked during her "inspection" of Noriko: she was presented to us as being tomboyish for the appearance, but sensitive and careful towards others, but that scene with Noriko wasn't sensitive at all! That was even quite rude, and both Sachiko and Rei acted very coldly toward Noriko, I thought. I was quite surprised by that.
Especially because I thought that Rei really fitted as a member of the Yellow Roses family: rosa foetida stands for friendship, doesn't it? then I was disappointed byt her attitude -_-
*although I don't doubt that more than one Lillian School Girl would have loved to be "checked on" like that by Rei ^-^;

hooliganj

2004-09-30, 18:58

I think Rei is all too aware of the 'boyish' image she projects, and just this once was willing to play it up to participate in the plan. Aside from that, her 'inspection' was so far out of character for her that she would have to have been acting.

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-09-30, 19:36

The former Rosa Foetida supposedly chose Rei based on her unusual looks. Knowing Eriko, she probably manhandled Rei's face too.

Rei probably wants some revenge. LOL

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-10-01, 00:35

Spoiler Image
http://members.aol.com/sevenat1stroke/Images/ep8.jpg

With that being said.
Since Youko left the hen house Sachiko felt she HAD to do something as the current Rosa Chinensis. It's combination of pressure and a power trip.

I believe she tried to manipulate things Youko style, but she just doesn't have that smoothness yet.

I completely agree. Rei and Sachiko simply lack class and tact (which is sort of out of character for somebody like Sachiko). Even though I have never been a Youko fan I found her way of dealing with Sei and Eriko much much more tasteful. Also, I feel that Shimako and Noriko, one being from a Buddhist family and the other a Buddhist in a Catholic school (in Japan or not), are never going to be entirely accepted by the students and staff; and what the two Roses have done would have (at least in my opinion) a rather harmful effect on the two later on.

kj1980, thanks for the pic. But why is Sachiko so different in that drawing? :confused:

kj1980

2004-10-01, 01:28

Also, I feel that Shimako and Noriko, one being from a Buddhist family and the other a Buddhist in a Catholic school (in Japan or not), are never going to be entirely accepted by the students and staff; and what the two Roses have done would have (at least in my opinion) a rather harmful effect on the two later on.

Nah.

Reason, as I said numerous of times before: Japan is the closest place where the duality between complete atheism and blended polytheism mingles together into our culture.

When asked what religion are we, we end up saying:

"Hmm...our family tomb is in a temple, so we are probably Buddhists"
"On the other hand, our wedding was done in traditional Japanese fashion, so we are probably Shintoist"
"But of course, we also celebrate Christmas - so does that makes us Christian too?"

The fact of the matter is: The majority of Japanese consider themselves to be Shintoist and Buddhist - at the same time most of them don't even care about religion at all.

One interesting thing that I have noticed in the past (and may require some further research) is that:

A. Westerners tend to ask that question a lot - "What religion are you?" to strangers

B. On the other hand, Japanese seldomly, if at all, ask such questions amongst themselves.

Our culture is indeed very interesting.

1. We used to follow the lunar calendar
2. Our culture is derived mainly from ancient Chinese philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism
3. Add that with a dose of Japanese bushido and traditional values
4. And then we have Shintoism
5. Which is mingled together with Buddhism
6. And we are also introduced with Western values and Christian ethics

What do you end up with? As close as you can get to atheistic-polytheism.

So, going back to what you have mentioned - no. From a Japanese reader's standpoint (in which Ms. Konno Oyuki had wrote it to be the target anyway) - we, the general Japanese people, including the students and teachers at Lillian, really are very open-minded about religion. Say it badly, "we could care less about religion." Say it positively, "we are very lax about differences in religion since our culture is about mixed religion"

Hence, quoting Yumi from the novel: "Hmm...I'd never thought of it that way. Come to think of it, I go to a Catholic Lillian, while my own brother goes to a Buddhist Hanadera. And if I look even in more detail, I see that my house has a statuette of St. Mary and a bodhisattva lying side-by-side right next to a small indoor Shinto shrine..."

SCR512

2004-10-01, 01:28

Thats not sachi, thats a flashback pic from S1... Sei's little love fling.

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-10-01, 01:42

kj1980, thanks again for an informative post. My issue was not necessarily based on religious grounds, but rather that Shimako and Noriko, being "different" and publicized as such by the crew, would become a target for bullying (which is obviously non-existant in a perfect world like Lillian, but I digress) and ostracism. From you've pointed out in another thread about the status of anime-fan in Japan and the general attitude towards society in Japan, I am getting the feeling that it was rather childish/inconsiderate for the roses to give everybody a show about how "different" Shimako and Noriko are. At the very least (IMO), having an "appearance" of conformity is more practical than being broastcasted their uniqueness like they were.

SCR512, I was talking about the book scan kj1980 posted. Sachiko and Rei have always been drawn to have "men" eyes in the anime, but in the book Sachiko has "girl" eyes.

Edit:
Just to squeeze in a comment on religion in Japan, I find it quite amusing that Noriko and Shimako talked about the Buddha, Virgin Mary, and "kami-sama" as if they all existed as if people just choose from a list of gods what they will believe. (Unless I misunderstood it, of course, which happens more often than I like. :()

Kankneet

2004-10-01, 18:15

A few more questions about religion:

While most of the students aren't Catholic, Noriko having a juzu at school is very bad. Does this mean that at Lillian, it's important to act Christian while being one isn't that important?

Second, Noriko. Just making sure for future reference, is she indeed a devout Buddhist?

Bracken33

2004-10-01, 18:29

Concerning Rei now, I was a bit shocked during her "inspection" of Noriko: she was presented to us as being tomboyish for the appearance, but sensitive and careful towards others, but that scene with Noriko wasn't sensitive at all!

This is for sure a strange episode. It was hart to swallow how Rei treated Noriko.
I really wondered what Rei was doing?

:topicoff:

A. Westerners tend to ask that question a lot - "What religion are you?" to strangers
B. On the other hand, Japanese seldomly, if at all, ask such questions amongst themselves.

Not all westeners are the same. In Europe the society gets more nonreligious with every generation.

Germans almost never talk about their believes, at least in my circle of acquaintances.
I have not been asked in what religion I believe for ages.
They ask you about your job, your hobbies or your girlfriend, even sex. About your religion....never ever...

The only time I discuss my believes is in some internet forum like this one :heh: .
Also when I say I am an atheist/agnostic most people my age or younger here in germany just react in an indifferent way. They don´t really care.

Other europeans might have different experiences. I cannot talk for all. But this is my experience...
Probably it is different in north america.

lordwu

2004-10-01, 21:38

While most of the students aren't Catholic, Noriko having a juzu at school is very bad. Does this mean that at Lillian, it's important to act Christian while being one isn't that important?

No, that is not correct. I don't think there's a rule saying you can't bring a juzu to Lillian, it's just what Shimako and Noriko believed. But I think accessories are generally frowned upon in most asian high schools, at least at the time when I attended high school. And there's no rule saying you need to be a Christian or act like one in a Christian school. You may have to go through some Christian activities but that's about it. None of the Yamayurikai members are devoted Christians anyways, well, except Shimako.

Second, Noriko. Just making sure for future reference, is she indeed a devout Buddhist?

She's just a fan of buddhist statues. She doesn't care about the religion itself.

Kaoru Chujo

2004-10-01, 22:12

A lovely episode. The two embraces (Yumi-Sachiko and Noriko-Shimako) were very cool. The scene sitting at the country bus stop was somehow moving, too.

I want to try reading some of the novels so I can see how much better they are, but I can't see how they could make Touko much more hateful than she seemed in the anime. I do not like her, despite her excellent hair. I didn't believe she took part in the operation for any good reason. On the other hand, I can forgive Rei her manhandling of Noriko, since I believe she was really doing it for a good end.

Thank you to the person who more or less explained why Mami was there (wearing a red rose) at the ceremony. The anime can't reproduce the novel, so these lacunae don't bother me too much. I have loved every episode so far, so how can I complain?

And thanks especially to kj1980. "Atheistic polytheism" makes sense to me. It especially surprised me in Japan to see so many people happily praying at Shinto shrines to gods that seem so bogus (in a lovely way, I grant you). I came to the conclusion that this was just a fun thing to do for good luck, and didn't really add up to religion. Of course, people praying to the Christian god weird me out, too, but somehow that seems different...or does it?

And do we know that they are going to do another season of the anime?

7thMethuselah

2004-10-01, 23:54

Finally we get some episodes where Shimako is the center of attention :) . It's lovely to see how she misses her onee-sama and then finds a new love. This episode held some great scenes, especially the one at the busstop where Shimako takes the sakura petals out of Noriko's hair.

I was rather confused by the whole juzu thing. If kj1980 claims the japanese are very lenient towards religion then I don't see what the real problem was. This aside the way they resolved the problem was rather weird and rushed as well. It didn't make much sense to me (but that might be me :heh: )

Kankneet

2004-10-02, 10:07

And there's no rule saying you need to be a Christian or act like one in a Christian school. You may have to go through some Christian activities but that's about it.

In that case, wouldn't Touko's bursting in and declaring Noriko unfit to receive the saint medallion be pretty absurd? The students seem pretty serious about the accusations.

She's just a fan of buddhist statues. She doesn't care about the religion itself.

Why does she feel she is deceiving the Virgin Mary, then?

The religious aspect in this show is horribly confusing. I'm guessing it's mainly because I find the attitude towards religion kj1980 has described very odd. Sure, Northern Europe is pretty secular, but we do care about our beliefs or lack of beliefs. I suppose trying to understand this show is a doomed effort.

The Yellow Dwarf

2004-10-02, 10:43

No, that is not correct. I don't think there's a rule saying you can't bring a juzu to Lillian, it's just what Shimako and Noriko believed. But I think accessories are generally frowned upon in most asian high schools, at least at the time when I attended high school. And there's no rule saying you need to be a Christian or act like one in a Christian school. You may have to go through some Christian activities but that's about it. None of the Yamayurikai members are devoted Christians anyways, well, except Shimako.
I'm not sure if that is the case. You don't have to be a Christian in a Christian school, but you, as an unspoken rule, don't go about saying that you are "not a Christian" and parade it and expect warm treatment, or at least, the same treatment that everybody else gets. It's sort of like you don't go to a computer job interview and tell the interviewer how much you hate computers and still expect to get hired (you may, but the chances are rare).

That's why I find Rei and Sachiko's plan naive, if not intentionally destructive, because they are essentially exposing things that should be left unsaid, not to mention that they did it without consulting either Noriko or Shimako which is incredibly rude. Even if the students accepted them both for what they are (which is obviously what the author and the creators intended to show), the school staff would at least try to hush up the matter.

If the precedent starts a large following and Lillian starts having many students who proclaim to be non-Christians (it's all about appearances), then parents who want to send their students to a Christian school (perhaps because religious schools = class) would perhaps think twice about enrolling their kids at Lillian. This episode is perhaps the first time I find Lillian's lack of teachers strange. (They didn't have any teacher supervision at the chapel.)

While I understand the motivation behind Rei and Sachiko's plan, it just seems that this plan has so many ways it can go wrong that this particular ending we see in the anime can happen in anime and not in real life.

Well, onto a loosely related question: What is the difference (in terms of intrinsic properties an possible outcomes) between Sei and Shiori's "private" relationship, and Shimako and Noriko's "public" (soeur) relationship? Would Shimako and Noriko go down their predecessors' path if the were left alone without the intervention from the other Roses?

lordwu

2004-10-02, 18:23

In that case, wouldn't Touko's bursting in and declaring Noriko unfit to receive the saint medallion be pretty absurd? The students seem pretty serious about the accusations.

I think it's the atmosphere. And maybe girls tend to be more dramatic. And Touko's doing that during a Christian ceremony made it more stood-out.

Why does she feel she is deceiving the Virgin Mary, then?
The religious aspect in this show is horribly confusing. I'm guessing it's mainly because I find the attitude towards religion kj1980 has described very odd. Sure, Northern Europe is pretty secular, but we do care about our beliefs or lack of beliefs. I suppose trying to understand this show is a doomed effort.

If you grew up with a strong religion influence, then I guess it's a bit difficult for you to understand. As an asian grew up in East Asia, I can absolutely understand and agree what kj1980 has said. Religion is and was never a strong factor in the daily life of most of the population in East Asia. We do have religious activities but it's more a ceremonial thing that has been passed down through so many generations. Look at the history of China/Japan, there were very few conflicts originated from religion clashes. In contrast, Europe has been under strong influences of religions for hundreds of years and so many wars were fought just to declare one's belief is THE belief. For me, it's unbelivable to fight and kill people just because they have a different belief. But it's what happened in Europe and Mideast. It's just a big difference in the culture and you just need to learn to appreciate it even you might not agree with it. :)

IntrepidAKP

2004-10-03, 22:31

I don't believe that's what he was getting at. Westerners don't grace a fine-line like apparently Japanese do. We either don't believe in a certain religion or we do. We're not so indifferent about them that we would go to a Catholic School, but accept Buddist into said school.

Takemi_Ikazuchi

2004-10-04, 02:51

My Catholic High School had Buddhist, Hindu and Moslem students.

I myself am a Protestant.

In general the parents don't give a damn about the religious orientation of the school. They just hope for quality education for their children.

BonBon

2004-10-04, 09:28

Kj1980, I always enjoy your posts on these forums, and would like to say thank-you for your contributions. It's always fascinating to hear about a culture from one familiar to it, rather than the generalisations and broad, sweeping assertions I'm used to.

I understand the attitude to religion you describe perfectly. Having strict Catholic grandparents on one side and Buddhist grandparents on the other (and being the son of two lapsed Catholics), I am familiar with having religious influences in my life but still considering myself apart from the orthodoxy of religious traditions. But I always thought that the girls of Lillian - particularly Yumi - were much stricter with religion than the average Japanese schoolgirl, hence the rosaries, prayers, hymns et al. Which is why I assumed that the impact of the prayer beads was enough for the gasp it caused. I just thought that Lillian was somewhat different to other Christian schools.

Still, I for one have a strong sense of antipathy towards Touko, grandiose coiffuring and all. If I start liking her more, good, but at the moment, the less I see of her the better. Kinda wish you hadn't told me that she would be redeemed, though - I think I would rather have the surprise.

I wasn't very happy with the way the Yamayurikai acted here. Rei and Sachiko's bullying wasn't justified by the end result, if you ask me. You could see Yumi was uncomfortable with it, and so was I.

What exactly was wrong with taking Shimako aside and talking to her directly about the issue?

Perhaps Touko is just a bad influence on them all!

-BonBon