View Full Version : Regarding sexuality...
Okay, I realize I'm flogging a dead horse here in terms of discussing the sexuality of the marimite characters - but like everyone else I want to get my 0.02c in. Sadly, I found the perfect thread to respond to before I registed, but afterwards I couldn't find it again!
Everyone is always mentioning that their Japanese friend doesn't think a or b is a lesbian - they're just friends etc etc. From what I can gather, being a lesbian in Japan is not the same thing as being a lesbian in the west. The mere term has a very heavy gender and role burden on it, and most girls would not want to associate themselves with the term or associate people they like and admire with the term. Lesbians tend to be socially outcast and endure hard lives at the mercy of social conformists. Therefore, it is very unlikely a Japanese person will tell you someone else is a lesbian even if all evidence points to yes, unless the person has explicited stated publicly that they are a lesbian.
Therefore, I doubt anyone besides Suguru will ever be referred to as a lesbian.
This type of physical relationship between girls in Japan (admiration/worship-go-attraction-go-physical intimacy) I'm told (and also from my own observation) is quite common, and none of the girls who engage in it would be very likely to think of it as anything other than a very strong friendship. However, this is exactly what the rest of us would be inclined to call a lesbian relationship.
I've seen discussions of people who say, "How can these girls possibly call themselves Christians?! Christianity is against this type of relationship between girls!" And my simple answer is they don't see their relationships as lesbianism, just as loving friendships. Why should friendship be considered wrong and bad?
So I don't know if it's appropriate to discuss whether this character or that character is a lesbian - because by our (by our, I mean typical western usage)usage of that word you'll find 95% of the characters ARE lesbian. However, technically, because of what I have discussed, they're not. But there is no doubt this is shoujo ai, and the girls do enjoy (or at least desperately wish to enjoy) physical relationships with the girls they are in love with. However, sadly it doesn't mean they won't grow up and get married like their real life parallels in Japan :(
I have more to say, but I think that's enough for now :heh:
This type of physical relationship between girls in Japan (admiration/worship-go-attraction-go-physical intimacy) I'm told (and also from my own observation) is quite common, and none of the girls who engage in it would be very likely to think of it as anything other than a very strong friendship. However, this is exactly what the rest of us would be inclined to call a lesbian relationship.
I've seen discussions of people who say, "How can these girls possibly call themselves Christians?! Christianity is against this type of relationship between girls!" And my simple answer is they don't see their relationships as lesbianism, just as loving friendships. Why should friendship be considered wrong and bad?
Good post, and you have very good points there, and I see that this is your first post so welcome to the Animesuki!
I think that we here in western countries think that anybody who shows any kind of attraction or admiration to the person who is same sex as she/he is, is lesbian or gay. I don't know is this the case in Japan, but I agree, in most cases we just mistake strong friendship as sexual attraction.
Most relationships in MariMite are just beatiful friendships, ne? :D And I mean those which are clearly friendships. I have seen relationships in anime when two characters clearly hate each other and constantly fight, so of course fans reason that they are just denying their love... like Sei and Suguru.
But one the other hand, lesbian related implications are obvious, maybe to please fans, so they are not meant to take so seriously. (We need more Sei x Yumi! :heh: )
What I see is in most cases just friendship but that doesn't stop me speculating who in love with who and enjoying this series. (Especially when Sei is teasing Yumi)
Bracken33
2004-08-23, 09:43
I think that we here in western countries think that anybody who shows any kind of attraction or admiration to the person who is same sex as she/he is, is lesbian or gay. I don't know is this the case in Japan, but I agree, in most cases we just mistake strong friendship as sexual attraction.
We (Germany) are probably not Japan but admiration of a person of the same sex is allowed here imho.
Why not say:"I wish I could be like this guy/gal. He/she is so cool."
A physical attraction to one´s own sex is of course still a big stigma.
I also have the impression that there is a bigger tolerance for females showing physical attraction to eachother.
Best female friends can dance together, they can visit the toilet together, they can kiss eachother or they can hold hands..., without causing too much turmoil.
Now do this all the time with your best friend if you are a male. I think most people would consider it 100% gay and nothing else.
dreamless
2004-08-23, 10:11
^^ yup, I blame it to the sexism... I guess it means a lot of people today are still... sexists :heh:
Good post, and you have very good points there, and I see that this is your first post so welcome to the Animesuki!
I think that we here in western countries think that anybody who shows any kind of attraction or admiration to the person who is same sex as she/he is, is lesbian or gay. I don't know is this the case in Japan, but I agree, in most cases we just mistake strong friendship as sexual attraction.
Most relationships in MariMite are just beatiful friendships, ne? :D And I mean those which are clearly friendships. I have seen relationships in anime when two characters clearly hate each other and constantly fight, so of course fans reason that they are just denying their love... like Sei and Suguru.
But one the other hand, lesbian related implications are obvious, maybe to please fans, so they are not meant to take so seriously. (We need more Sei x Yumi! :heh: )
What I see is in most cases just friendship but that doesn't stop me speculating who in love with who and enjoying this series. (Especially when Sei is teasing Yumi)
Thanks for the warm welcome!
I don't mean at all that there's not physical attraction between some of girls. There clearly is. You're asbolutely right that westerners jump to label anyone lesbian or gay. Japan is the opposite - they jump to avoid doing so ;) The usage of the words is different.
I really like sexuality as displayed in MariMite - the opportunity to explore it without having to adopt alternative lifestyle and alternative gender roles. No one is labelling anyone (except Su-kun, hmmm...), and all sorts of ai behaviour is clearly acceptable. It's a true blurring of the boundaries and I totally love it ^_^ It's what actually goes on at school before you learn about what lesbianism/bisexuality is and what everyone tells you it should mean to your identity. You love someone and what to be with them - why give that a (extremely stigmatized) label?
That said, I'm going to totally contradict myself and say that as soon as Sei gets into university, SHE'S MINE, HISS! ;) Although, I'm also quite happy to concede and give her to Yumi. SeixYumi has gotta be one of my fave pairings. I've never heard such blatent yuri come out of the mouth of a female character in popular anime to date! :twitch: :heh:
I've seen discussions of people who say, "How can these girls possibly call themselves Christians?! Christianity is against this type of relationship between girls!"
One minor point. Do any of them even claim to be Christians (with the exception of one "abandon friend at the train station" woman at least) in the first place? It's not quite so uncommon over here for girls to be sent to Catholic schools over here and not have any Christian leanings in the slightest. They pay lip service to "Maria-sama", I'll grant you that, but no further. It's pretty much how many Japanese treat religion actually. Tradition and custom are followed for the sakes of tradition and custom, not so much for the sake of devout belief.
In any case, while I can only judge the fandom's attitudes by the doujinshi at Comike, it would seem there is a strong belief for relationships between many of the characters that those in US and elsewhere would portray as lesbianism (or leading to it), though except for the productions of crazed fanboys selling their wares on Comike's unofficial H doujin day, there was very little in the way of suggestions of a sexual nature.
Sweets Yumi
2004-08-23, 15:03
As far as Christianity and sin goes: I don't believe it's a sin to be a homosexual, only a sin to commit sodomy. And there are more heteros doing that these days them homosexuals anyway. :p
Also, I think, just because someone does something that's considered a 'sin' doesn't automatically make them a non-Christian. There isn't a single person alive who is 100% pure (besides babies anyway :) ) So saying gays or whatever can't be Christian, is a mistake. If the person themself, considers themselves to be Christian, then they are. :)
Otherwise, you'd have to say there are no Christians on the planet, cause, like I just said, nobody is perfect. :)
But, to Maria-sama. I think it's true that people always assume, especially in animes, that such and such are gay, or such and such are lesbian, just because two people basically share an admiration of each other. Of course people even pair up people that are in no way even remotley homosexual. It just our times I guess! :)
But then again, it's on the viewer how they perceive things. I only see Sei as being lesbian in Marimite. All the other girls (even Rei & Yoshino) just seemed to be just close friends. Of course, I'm just going by the anime, I can't comment on the novels or manga.
And I notice, alot of people on this board think the majority of the Roses are lesbian (-Eriko) :) The thing about this anime, in particular, is it basically lets you run with any perception you feel. So 5 people could be viewing it 5 different way. It's like a perfume, it smells a litle different on each person that wears it!
So basically (I do run on don't I? :p) I think there are lesbians if you want there to be, and none if you don't want them to be.
Takemi_Ikazuchi
2004-08-23, 17:08
May I give you guys and girls some advice?
Hold your opinions until the 2nd series completes its run. A lot of things will happen, and you'll get a better perspective.
mintyfresh
2004-08-23, 18:51
From what I've seen in most anime (well... in shoujo anime, anyhow), the concept of sexual orientation or preference doesn't really exist -- a character is free to fall in love with whomever they fall in love with -- Marimite is no exception. It's just that since the show is coincidentally set in an all-girls' school, the pairings usually tend to be two girls.
In all honesty, I dislike referring to the romantic aspects of this (or any anime where two characters if the same sex seem interested in one another) show as hints towards whether or not a character is gay or bi, but rather if person A is in love with person B.
In all honesty, I dislike referring to the romantic aspects of this (or any anime where two characters if the same sex seem interested in one another) show as hints towards whether or not a character is gay or bi, but rather if person A is in love with person B.
:nods head: love doesn't always = sexual orientation. love and sex are different things. we all (myself included) forget that sometimes. :heh: blame it on how the world works nowadays. :D
overfiend
2004-08-23, 22:06
First, I'm new to the forums so, "Hajimemashite!"
Now that introductions are out of the way, I've noticed that Judeo-christian iconography and theology are referred to or incorporated in quite a few anime and manga. I find this to be interesting, given that the target audience practice buddhism and observe Shinto rituals and holidays.
What I know about Japanese and Asian sociology is limited, but what I do know is that Asian views on homosexuality are a little less strict then Western views. From what I've gathered, Buddhism does not specifically proscribe homosexual relations. What Buddhism does say is that you should not engage in sexual misconduct, which rules out sodomy.
In China and Japan, female impersonators were quite celebrated and admired for centuries. Many daimyo, mandarins, shoguns, and emperors made use of their services. Some more so then geishas or courtesans. So while it may not have been something openly discussed or admitted to, it happened and was accepted.
Interpersonal relations are far more intimate and expressive in Japan then in the West, America particularly, where we are taught to be independant and that being emotionally intimate with people isn't considered to be a good thing. People like that are called pansies, fruits, etc. The Japanese place much more importance on their relationships with friends, family, and coworkers.
In this kind of situation, I think it's only natural that the girls not only become emotionally attached to their soeurs, but also develope romantic bonds with each other. They would not consider themselves lesbians, as I'm sure none of them are planning to elope, with the exception of Sei and Shiori - but that's another story. Instead, these relationships will probably deepen beyond what you and I would consider a friendship, but they would still be less then what we think of as lovers. Could you see Yumi and Sachiko trying to make love?
Anyway, thanks for letting me blabber on. And thank you for the downloads. Just finished Season 1, and I'm working on Spring as we speak.
I'll be seeing you.
Ja!
PS: Baik!, Where'd you get the chibis?
What Buddhism does say is that you should not engage in sexual misconduct, which rules out sodomy.
Incorrect. Sodomy is a Christian idea (The "Sodom" part didn't give that away?). In Buddhism, it's taken more to refer to adultery, and in some sects, is taken further as a vow of celibacy.
aniforever
2004-08-23, 23:56
Could you see Yumi and Sachiko trying to make love?
hehe not sure but i wouldn't mine seeing yumi and sei. well not until yumi is 18 that is heheh.
Sweets Yumi
2004-08-24, 00:00
hehe not sure but i wouldn't mine seeing yumi and sei. well not until yumi is 18 that is heheh.
But in Japan, I believe the legal age is 14. *laughs*
IIRC, it's 13 actually, though many of the prefectures have their own "corrupting a minor" laws that make the legal age there effectively 16 or 18.
aniforever
2004-08-24, 00:54
But in Japan, I believe the legal age is 14. *laughs*
wah you serious? so what is consider child porn over here is actually adult porn over there huH? hmm...hehe i'm such a dork.
me vote sei x yumi coupling.
wah you serious? so what is consider child porn over here is actually adult porn over there huH? hmm...hehe i'm such a dork.
me vote sei x yumi coupling.
Age of consent and age of adulthood are two different things.
NoSanninWa
2004-08-24, 02:07
Age of consent and age of adulthood are two different things.
Does that mean it is legal for a 19 year old to have sex with a 14 year old, but pictures of that wouldn't be legal?
I seem to remember a court case about exactly that from a while back, though that might have been in America. My memory's not so great. Sounds about right in any case though.
First, I'm new to the forums so, "Hajimemashite!"
Douzo Yoroshiku! (^_^) (-_-) (^_^)
Could you see Yumi and Sachiko trying to make love?
Oh, yes! :heh: I was in the same situation as Yumi in grammar school, and that definately went somewhere ;)
mintyfresh
2004-08-24, 03:23
Could you see Yumi and Sachiko trying to make love?
Yes.
...can't...can't you..?
Sweets Yumi
2004-08-24, 03:34
Yes.
...can't...can't you..?
I can't see Sachiko making love period. She seems the type to die an old-maid to me. :(
I can't see Sachiko making love period. She seems the type to die an old-maid to me. :(
Well, she hates men. So she's prolly not going to get married, is she? I don't have the manga, so I only know what's been on television - and I REALLY REALLY hope that the storyline about Yumi and the boys from the brother school doesn't get developed! (Unless, of course, Yumi tells them that the only person for her is Sachiko...)
Sachiko really doesn't seem all that sure of herself, despite this whole elegant serene facade. I don't think she'd be the one to initiate any sort of sexual contact. But would she stop it if it was initiated? Maybe. But also, I think... maybe not ;)
overfiend
2004-08-24, 08:20
Yes.
...can't...can't you..?
Oh, yes I can. In fact I can see all the girls having sex with each other. But I'm a guy and lesbians turn me on so...
But anyway, I don't think the characters, given the current state of their developement would have sex with each other. Sachiko is still stuck on "Token Yaoi Boy", and Yumi is still a little too insecure.
By the way, you are sexually mature at 14 in Japan, but you can't get married until 18, the legal age of consent. Which means teenagers can't be porn stars in Japan.
Buddhism's core is bringing an end to suffering. Sodomy usually does not start off pleasantly, that hole is designed for exit not entry, so there is some negativity with regards to it. But as was stated, misconduct does imply promiscuity, rape, and adultery more then homosexuality in general. My bad for not being clear. I do that alot. You'll get used to it.
Oh, yes I can. In fact I can see all the girls having sex with each other. But I'm a guy and lesbians turn me on so...
But anyway, I don't think the characters, given the current state of their developement would have sex with each other. Sachiko is still stuck on "Token Yaoi Boy", and Yumi is still a little too insecure.
This where we'll disagree. I think a lot of them are actually in the right place to start a physical relationship. But they wouldn't think of it as sex, ne? You just want to touch the person you love - and one thing leads to another. Especially in the context of friendship. Just as a personal reflection for example: I was in this situation at grammar school - one day I realized that my 'friend' and I were maybe were more than friends? But by this time, I'd already been sleeping with her for several months ;) I'll naturally spare you the details, but somehow the physicality seemed to make sense to the point where I never questioned it. Looking back, how blind I was O_o;;
I very much doubt Yumi is actually forming the conscious thought of having sex with Sachiko. But, that definitely doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
Bracken33
2004-08-24, 09:27
Could you see Yumi and Sachiko trying to make love?
No sex please in this anime.
But I would like to see Yumi and Sachiko doing cute kissing or snuggling.
Yes.
...can't...can't you..?
ROFLMAO!!! XDDD!!!
*cough* as for Sachiko not getting married, it is quite impossible. For the first part, Sachiko is already engaged with Suguru, and considering her family's social status, this engagement probably have been going on for quite awhile. And if I have understood it right, Sachiko *do* actually love Suguru, but have realized that he will not (and prolly wont) love her aback, at least not over Yuuki O___o. But even IF none of them had actually loved each other, and even if her engagement had not been to Suguru, Sachiko is more or less doomed to marry anyway due to her social status. She is after all, the only legal child of the powerful Ogasawara family, and if not for love, she would have married for politics.
of course it's easy to *imagine* anyone having sex with another (and so _____ kissed ____ and they lived and loved happily ever after! *insert wished names*), but if you are going to base a physical relationship on the one Sachiko and Yumi shares, I find it rather unlikely.
While I don't believe their relationship to be enirely platonic, getting physical is quite a leap from the younger-sister-in-admiration-of-older-sister kinda bound they have. Of course, Yumi have commented on Sachiko being beautiful in a few of her lines but then, Sachiko *is*. It's the same as you hinking that one of your best friends is pretty, there is a huge difference in admiring a person's physical looks than wanting to have sex with one. That is, if the Lillian girls are the demure and peaceful people the anime and books makes them to be, and not a bunch of packed hormones.
overfiend
2004-08-24, 09:41
No sex please in this anime.
But I would like to see Yumi and Sachiko doing cute kissing or snuggling.
I think Yumi's cute little mind would go "pop" if Sachiko kissed her. Then again, I've seen the picture of her kissing Sei, which I never thought I'd see her do. And the reaction afterwards is priceless. A victim of Sei's mischief once again, no doubt. I've only seen episode 1 of Spring, so I'm looking forward to that ep.
Sachiko may hate men because all the men in her life are assholes who need to be castrated, but I still don't see her persuing a physical relationship with Yumi just yet because she is in love with her cousin and they really haven't resolved that issue.
Yumi might have been able to kiss Sei, but c'mon, it's Sei. Sachiko is another story. I think as much as she loves Sachiko, and as close as they've become, Yumi is still intimidated by her and would be very uncomfortable persuing any physical relations with her unless Sachiko initiated it. If Sachiko did start it, then I think Yumi's initial reaction would be a total meltdown of her higher brain functions.
The only couple I can see having physical relations with each other are Rei and Yoshino, they are very close and obviously in love. However, there is the incident with Sei and Shiori to consider, so if they were to get physical - any of them, they'd have to be very careful.
Do you really think Sachiko would initiate physicality between her and Yumi? Yumi's always the one diving into her arms O_O I think Sachiko is very much a prisoner of her traditional japanese upbringing and wouldn't initiate any sort of contact at all O_O Correct me if I'm wrong though - I'm only going on what's aired on TV.
Yumi surprised me with that Sei-kiss, as well. I didn't think she'd do it. Maybe she'd surprise us all with Sachiko?
overfiend
2004-08-24, 10:14
Do you really think Sachiko would initiate physicality between her and Yumi? Yumi's always the one diving into her arms O_O I think Sachiko is very much a prisoner of her traditional japanese upbringing and wouldn't initiate any sort of contact at all O_O Correct me if I'm wrong though - I'm only going on what's aired on TV.
Yumi surprised me with that Sei-kiss, as well. I didn't think she'd do it. Maybe she'd surprise us all with Sachiko?
I'd love to read the novels, even if they are shoujo. The story is great. But I have very little familiarity with kanji - not to mention a modest begginer's level understanding of Japanese in general. If anyone knows if there are translations floating around the net somewhere, please direct me there.
Yumi could be the agressor in their relationship if Sachiko were to encourage her, as she did on the date. Yumi's problem is a lack of self-confidence, particularly when it comes to Sachiko. If Sachiko wanted to get physical with Yumi, but couldn't bring herself to initiate it for whatever reason, she might do so by proxy. In other words, by encouraging Yumi to kiss her with a few well chosen words.
onearmedscissor
2004-08-24, 15:16
is it common to have a romantic relationship with your cousin in japan? because so far i've seen two cases of this in this anime (sachiko and suguru, rei and yoshino), and everyone treats it normally. am i missing something here? it just seems weird to me.
for novel translations, one and a fourth chapters are translated here: http://www.saicoink.com/marimite/
Bracken33
2004-08-24, 15:48
It is legal to marry first cousins in japan. There was a discussion about incest also discussing first cousins on the animesuki boards (there are maybe more then one). Here is the one about incest:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=7172&highlight=incest
Okay, lets get Sachiko's marriage thing outta the gutter, once and for all.
In the normal salary man family like Yumi's, you usually don't marry your cousins since they are, yes, your relatives. It is legal however to do so, but since your choices are quite wide (most normal families accept their children's choices of marriage as long as they can provide for themselves), it is seen very seldom, absolutely NOTHING forbids two cousins to get married among normal families.
Sachiko's family situation is however quite different. Not only is she a child of a family that most likely runs a big company, or sits in the parlament (whatever, but they are very wealthy), she is also the ONLY legal child, as in born by the actual wife and not by mistresses of such a family. It seems like Sachiko's father provided the Ogasawara family with a heir, and ignored his wife after that, I dont know, but Sachiko in terms of law is the only Ogasawara heir.
Whoever she marries will take over the Ogasawara business and become the next head of the family, therefor her chances of marrying for love or "a normal guy" kinda drops to zero. Marriages between cousins are more common among those kind of families, especially in Japan, when they wish to keep the company and family wealth among a closely related circle. Incest do not happen, since it's illegal. Marriages between cousins from those wealthy families are mostly purely political and in the benefit of each family's social or economic status. Even marriages between non-cousins are mostly political, to seal a company merge or increase both family's fortunes.
A lot of those marriages are loveless, or takes time for the both parts. But under the traditional sense of duty towards your family, most young people from wealthy families agrees to this without question. To marry for love is after all, selfish, when it does not benefit your family and would have been catastrophic in Sachiko's case since she is also the *only* heir, her marriage decides the next Ogasawara head, and the future of the family.
This doesn't mean that Japan is run by a bunch of very unhappily married people however, since on the contrary to the western tradition, arranged marriage is not always a horribly cruel thing. Most people who undego it accept their duties to their families and for their own sake, learns to love the person your family have decided on. A lot of cases actually work out, my own uncle had an arranged marriage and even now 24 years after, he loves his wife and their son dearly.
Sachiko however, is rather tragic in that she actually *do* love her arranged fiancee, but her love is one-sided. Suguru, while caring for her, obviously prefers Yuuki O_o;;.
onearmedscissor
2004-08-24, 18:21
ah, thanks. that clears it up.
overfiend
2004-08-24, 19:02
Not to go off-topic here, Shigan, but you do bring up a rather interesting point. Sachiko seems duty-bound to marry Suguru even though she doesn't love him. Legal, she isn't forced to, but it would cause a scandal and undoubtedly lead to her being disowned.
Similiarly, in Ai Yori Aoshi, Kaoru and Aoi's marriage has been arranged. The difference is Aoi and Kaoru are very much in love with each other, BUT things have been complicated because Kaoru has been disowned, or rather walked out on his family. Since Kaoru's father married a woman who was low born (I hate that phrase) and against the wishes of his grandfather, Kaoru's had it rough. First his father dies, then his mother is sent away and he's forced to live with a family that only cares about him because he's the only heir the family has. And he gets treated like crap.
Aristocrats suck big time. I actually think Sachiko should tell her father to off himself and run away with Yumi. It would be better then living an obvious lie and dealing with the grief her father makes for her and her mother. But Sachiko is the opposite of Kaoru. She'll be the dutiful daughter and do what she's told.
mintyfresh
2004-08-24, 19:52
I can't see Sachiko making love period. She seems the type to die an old-maid to me. :(
ohh.. I can't be alone on this can I..?
Of course, I don't see it happening any time soon, nor do I know if it even ever will happen.. But if it does... it would be... *sniff* ..beautiful.. :love:
..or very funny. It can really go either way.
Not to go off-topic here, Shigan, but you do bring up a rather interesting point. Sachiko seems duty-bound to marry Suguru even though she doesn't love him. Legal, she isn't forced to, but it would cause a scandal and undoubtedly lead to her being disowned......Aristocrats suck big time. I actually think Sachiko should tell her father to off himself and run away with Yumi. It would be better then living an obvious lie and dealing with the grief her father makes for her and her mother. But Sachiko is the opposite of Kaoru. She'll be the dutiful daughter and do what she's told.
Hrm.. this thread's become very interesting indeed. It makes you wonder just how (or if) the series will deal with this issue. The running away together thing is a bit iffy, however, considering it's already been done (albeit, unsuccessfully) with Sei and Shiori. However, we never know how far the series will go. There's still the potential things can become quite epic.
..On the other hand, the series can always end with a "And they lived happily ever after...sorta...kinda.. well, let's just pretend they will"-sort of ending. a la Koi Kaze.. :heh:
Yamano667
2004-08-24, 21:24
IIRC, it's 13 actually, though many of the prefectures have their own "corrupting a minor" laws that make the legal age there effectively 16 or 18.
Nothing in Japan surprises me, but for pedos, and rapist it must be Heaven.
take a look their hentai for crying out loud :heh:
overfiend
2004-08-24, 21:33
God I hope it doesn't end with them going off on their seperate ways. Especially if Sachiko is resigned to her fate. That would suck.
And Sei and Shiori could have worked, had Shiori not backed out. I'm going to reveal my sappy side here and say I hope Shiori shows up again before the end of the series to be with Sei. But yeah, Yumi, elope with Sachiko. NOW!
overfiend
2004-08-24, 21:42
Nothing in Japan surprises me, but for pedos, and rapist it must be Heaven.
take a look their hentai for crying out loud :heh:
Actually it's not. Japan has its own version of statutory rape laws. The legal age of sexual maturity may be 14, but if you're a 30 year old salary man who happens to solicit said 14 year old for a little "subsidized dating", guess what? You're going to jail if you get caught.
Likewise, taking dirty pictures of minors and throwing them up on the internet, or making movies, is going to get you arrested. Lolicon hentai slips through because it's not an actual minor. Which still doesn't make it right, mind you.
Don't judge 'em just because the hentai lives up to its name (perverted).
Sachiko however, is rather tragic in that she actually *do* love her arranged fiancee, but her love is one-sided. Suguru, while caring for her, obviously prefers Yuuki O_o;;.
Well, she'll end up and old maid, won't she? Just married one. Suguru is going to run around courting young men (just like her father goes to his mistresses house(s)), and she's going to be sitting at home alone, with another heir on her knee. Poor Sachiko! Maybe Yumi will save her from loneliness? :o
Orm_Irian
2004-08-25, 01:43
Well, she'll end up and old maid, won't she? Just married one. Suguru is going to run around courting young men (just like her father goes to his mistresses house(s)), and she's going to be sitting at home alone, with another heir on her knee. Poor Sachiko! Maybe Yumi will save her from loneliness? :o
IMHO, Sachiko will continue the ancient and established Ogasawara tradition of having a mistress in another house... (pardon my poor engliish)
:naughty: :naughty:
NoSanninWa
2004-08-25, 01:58
IMHO, Sachiko will continue the ancient and established Ogasawara tradition of having a mistress in another house... (pardon my poor engliish)
:naughty: :naughty:
I can't imagine that she would do that. It bothers her so much that her father does that that I can't imagine she will do the same herself. I think she'd rather suffer in a loveless marriage. Besides, she's so proper that I don't think she'd think that what is juice for the goose is good for the gander.
Sharkbark
2004-08-25, 02:03
lol, well, regarding whether or not Sachiko would ever make love to Yumi... here's an amusing picture on that very subject :heh:
WARNING! This picture might be considered midly ecchi by some... but nothing is actually shown.
http://s01.imagehost.org/0081/hmmm.jpg
I think Sachiko reading the Accounting book is what makes this image :D
mintyfresh
2004-08-25, 02:27
http://s01.imagehost.org/0081/hmmm.jpg
Some people smoke a cigarette, others... :heh:
NoSanninWa
2004-08-25, 02:30
lol, well, regarding whether or not Sachiko would ever make love to Yumi... here's an amusing picture on that very subject :heh:
WARNING! This picture might be considered midly ecchi by some... but nothing is actually shown.
http://s01.imagehost.org/0081/hmmm.jpg
I think Sachiko reading the Accounting book is what makes this image :D
I cracked up when I glanced at the title of the book. :D
overfiend
2004-08-25, 07:19
I could see Sachiko marrying Suguru and having Yumi on the side. I think she would take after her father at least in that respect. Suguru has made no secret that he will never sleep with Sachiko, so she'll not only have to go elsewhere if she is to produce an heir for the family, but she's going to need someone who loves her and will keep her sane given how screwed up her family is.
Friggin' aristocrats. Down with 'em all.
Oh, I just saw Spring episode 2. Eriko is a nut. And so is her family.
Well, she'll end up and old maid, won't she? Just married one. Suguru is going to run around courting young men (just like her father goes to his mistresses house(s)), and she's going to be sitting at home alone, with another heir on her knee. Poor Sachiko! Maybe Yumi will save her from loneliness? :o
May be, albeit Sachiko will bear Suguru's child, providing an heir for the family.
As for the eloping business, I would say it is highly unlikely. Sei and Shiori attempted, but then, Sei is a far more explosive character than Sachiko and took her love to Shiori to the extreme. Sachiko too, would honestly disappoint me if she did try, not to mention that I am not under the impression of that Sachiko's and Yumi's relationship is anything alike the young passionlike love Sei and Shiori shared.
I think you need to drop the "They looked at each other and blushed!!! OMG THEY ARE GONNA HAVE SEX!!!!" attitude towards this serie, because honestly, that is not what Maria-sama ga Miteru is about at all.
And arranged marriage is for the second time, not a overly bad thing. If my parents were to arrange a fiancee for me, I would honestly consider it. Human emotions can in a lot of cases be fleeting htings, especially when you're young. Your family, future and life however, is not.
I think you need to drop the "They looked at each other and blushed!!! OMG THEY ARE GONNA HAVE SEX!!!!" attitude towards this serie, because honestly, that is not what Maria-sama ga Miteru is about at all.
Very true, the series itself isn't like that at all, but considering the fans as they like characters and especially the relationships, so I think they put all kind of hints in the show on purpose, for the fans. That can be considered as fanservice of one kind, not to please eyes like usually, but something more elegant. :D
I mean, nothing flares up speculations about relationships than hinted ones. This thread is proof of that. :heh:
mintyfresh
2004-08-25, 09:39
I could see Sachiko marrying Suguru and having Yumi on the side. I think she would take after her father at least in that respect.
Well, not only can I simply not imagine Sachiko ever having an affair of any kind, I can't deal with the idea of Yumi settling to be a mere mistress..(she has principles too, you know. And something tells me that it's really all or nothing for that girl). Yumi may love Sachiko, but if she ever got married she would most definitely give up on trying to go after her, and would do her best to try and make Sachiko's marriage work.. (that is, if she doesn't just leave the whole situation behind her).
.. But that's just me.
Bracken33
2004-08-25, 12:16
I belong to the fraction of people here who can imagine that Sachiko one day has an affair.
But probably not in the near future.
She will marry Suguru and have a heir with him.
Performance of one´s duty is important for Sachiko. I think the same might be true for Suguru.
Fullfilling ones duty seems to be a very Japanese trait. (Yeah, I am prejudiced). Sachiko is a aristocratic person, she is old fashioned. Sachiko is not a new generation progressive Japanese.
Imho nobody wants to live for duty forever.
Later Sachiko and Suguru will notice this and will have an arrangement.
They will tolerate eachothers lovers and cover eachother. Sachiko´s lover will probably be Yumi.
Or Yumi got desperate waiting for the indifferent Sachiko and jumped from a cliff... :bash:
Or...
Enough fantasized...:D
hooliganj
2004-08-25, 14:48
I could see Sachiko marrying Suguru and having Yumi on the side.
I don't see this ever actually happening, but if it did, would that mean that Suguru gets to 'keep' Yuuki as well? Sibling homosexual affairs... crazy stuff man. :twitch:
Fullfilling ones duty seems to be a very Japanese trait. (Yeah, I am prejudiced). Sachiko is a aristocratic person, she is old fashioned. Sachiko is not a new generation progressive Japanese.
Fulfilling one's duty is an ideal that is supported by any civilized country. The unique twist that the Japanese put on it (as well as career military) is that one should sacrifice their life, happiness and future for their duty. Your point holds true, though, since Sachiko does seem the kind of person who is willing to make that sacrifice.
Fulfilling one's duty is an ideal that is supported by any civilized country. The unique twist that the Japanese put on it (as well as career military) is that one should sacrifice their life, happiness and future for their duty. Your point holds true, though, since Sachiko does seem the kind of person who is willing to make that sacrifice.
The concept of duty in Japan, or in eastern asia (China, Korea, Japan) overall is rooted in the Konfucian teachings about morality, or "how to be a good person". This is not entirely correct since the direct translation of the old chinese scripts would be "How to be human", which is a lot stricter than just aiming for being nice. Duty, honor and loyalty are three very important aspects together with how to treat your parents and family ("The five relations", if anyone is familiar) and how to treat knowledge.
To act and live according to those teachings, it do take a *lot* of self-sacrifice. Failing badly in any of these aspects is not only considered to prove yourself simply a bad person, you fail as a person, and as a human being. A human ackowledges his plights and duties in life and fullfills them, an animal/beast only thinks of itself and it's selfish urges.
The most honorable way to acknowledge your failure as a human, and proving that you're not like an animal/beast, is therefor ending your own life in a honorable way by your own hands. In Japan, this is known as Seppuku, ritual suicide. The concept have existed in China too but was less formal and stopped being used somewhen along the 19th century.
Since duty and plight is a critical heavy aspect in the Konfucian teachings, one cannot live with the shame which your selfishness caused by neglecting your duty. I'm not saying that a modern japanese or chinese will think himself as some thing inhuman if he fails at this, it is however, *highly* (make that very-highly-in-the-extreme) shameful and regretable in the aristocratic and more traditional families, or even normal families.
It's kinda weird to bring this up in the terms of an anime, but Sachiko was brought up strictly according an aristocratic japanese family. If she has any properness (which she has), if she is anything *japanese* or even asian at all, she would -never- EVER do/cause/stir anything that might be harmful to her family's honor and reputation. It is not a question about a long line of 'what if's, it is unthinkable and unacceptable, and I am sorry to say, impossible.
My family is a traditional one, which is why I was actually taught the Konfucian teachings and therfor more or less can make anythng out of why some things are like they are in modern asia's societies. And despite being brought up in the west, the mere thought of actually neglecting my family duties towards my parents and grandparents disgusts me. Of course, Marimite is an anime and I am a real person, but Lillian is supposed to be in Japan, so I think my cultural references here are solid.
Bracken33
2004-08-25, 17:24
Shigan and kj1980 always post interesting stuff about Japan. Thank you guys.
In some respects it is really a totally different world.
overfiend
2004-08-25, 17:38
That it is. Western society places the individual before the group, while Eastern cultures put the group before the individual. Japan is an odd mix of East and West, but duty and loyalty to family/employer/class/whatever is still really important to them.
Sachiko will marry Suguru, but unless they go in for some invitro fertilization, they ain't having kids. And I cannot see her being happy at all unless Yumi is there to support her. The possibility that they may become lovers is good, but I will agree that I do not see Yumi settling for playing second fiddle to Sachiko's stuffy family and especially not to "Token Yaoi Boy".
Suguru can also forget about Yuki because Yuki doesn't like him.
Overfiend... you do realize that the concept of a married woman having a lover is even worse than eloping if you're concerned about "saving face" and family honor do you? O_o; Men are allowed to have lovers in asian societies, women are not.
And oi, we are somewhat focused on Sachiko here, I'm gonna pull a Shimako and ask everyone to consider Yumi's feelings as well. Who says that she wants to stay as a side-figure in Sachiko's life? As selfless and caring of Sachiko as we see her now, Yumi is going to graduate, go to College and *have her own life* one day, totally indenpendent from Sachiko. Who says That Yumi don't want to get married and have a family, rather than stay as a some kinda concubine figure?
Be realistic, as much as we idealize and believe, love is seldom a unconditional thing in the real world. Everyone here who had a serious relationship knows that. Nothing is ever a dance on roses, at least not after high school. Yes, love is a free thing but it takes *work* from both parts, to be able to give and receive and to be able to compromise.
Yumi will grow up, she will be a woman. She will want a life of her own, how precious she may holds Sachiko. Staying as a side-figure in someone else's life, is not really what I call self-fullflling and people who are not happy about themselves usually becomes bitter.
I had rather like Yumi happy and supporting Sachiko as the forever younger sister than actually get her involved physically as a fill-in in Sachiko's life.
Bracken33
2004-08-25, 19:06
That sounds good to me Shigan. They both will have a husband and kids.
But deep inside I hope Sachiko and Yumi can make lub together one day (no I don´t want to see the hentai).
I mean their families and husbands do not need to know :heh: .
The Yellow Dwarf
2004-08-25, 20:19
Okay, I realize I'm flogging a dead horse here in terms of discussing the sexuality of the marimite characters - but like everyone else I want to get my 0.02c in. Sadly, I found the perfect thread to respond to before I registed, but afterwards I couldn't find it again!
Try extend the time limit on the post you are viewing may help? (The default shows only posts from the last 30 days.)
Everyone is always mentioning that their Japanese friend doesn't think a or b is a lesbian - they're just friends etc etc. From what I can gather, being a lesbian in Japan is not the same thing as being a lesbian in the west. The mere term has a very heavy gender and role burden on it, and most girls would not want to associate themselves with the term or associate people they like and admire with the term. Lesbians tend to be socially outcast and endure hard lives at the mercy of social conformists. Therefore, it is very unlikely a Japanese person will tell you someone else is a lesbian even if all evidence points to yes, unless the person has explicited stated publicly that they are a lesbian.
I think the so-called sexuality we come to know are not facts, they are brands (no, not the Pepsi brands; the hot iron brands). The only difference observedc between traditional Asian societies and stereotypical Western ones is that, in the "Asian" society, the one with a non-conformist brand is considered a deviant and cast out, whereas in "Western" societies, people walk around showing it off like some really cool tattoo. We have become tempted to stamp a "straight," "gay," "lesbian," "bi-sexual," etc. on people and put them in the cold room like how beef is seperated to "loin," "sirloin," "rib," "tri-tip," etc.
It is as if there is a universal law saying that if a person is sexually attracted to a person of the same gender, she must be a lesbian and must not like guys or she must be put into another mental category and generalized to another stereotype. Needless to say (though I'm going to say it anyways), I extremely dislike these labels under the umbrella excuse of "determining sexuality" and the term "sexual identity." I think they are nothing but a social construction to put people into neat little boxes and shut them off. (To be honest, pioneers of sexuality categories had always used labels like "homosexual" to persecute the innocent. The Nazi party was just one of many.)
I've seen discussions of people who say, "How can these girls possibly call themselves Christians?! Christianity is against this type of relationship between girls!" And my simple answer is they don't see their relationships as lesbianism, just as loving friendships. Why should friendship be considered wrong and bad?
I had to chuckle when I saw your comment about Suguru being a lesbian. :heh: But really though, is Christianity really against lesbian relationships? I thought it was only about guys doing it with each other (and if I remember correctly, the Bible was very specific about it so that they could do it standing up)?
Takemi_Ikazuchi
2004-08-25, 20:35
Here's something amusing about Suguru in the novels:
He once suggested Yuuki to procreate with Sachiko, because he doesn't think he'll able to do it himself.
And since Yuuki is Yumi's brother, it would be equivalent to having a child with Yumi.
It's funny, sad and twisted at the same time.
Frankly, I feel really sorry for him as well.
The_Dreamer
2004-08-25, 20:47
Here's something amusing about Suguru in the novels:
He once suggested Yuuki to procreate with Sachiko, because he doesn't think he'll able to do it himself.
And since Yuuki is Yumi's brother, it would be equivalent to having a child with Yumi.
It's funny, sad and twisted at the same time.
Frankly, I feel really sorry for him as well.
o_O...And the reaction to this was...?
overfiend
2004-08-25, 21:41
I hope the reaction was "are you out of your peabrained little mind?"
Can't help talking about Sachiko and Yumi. They are the main characters. The story is told from Yumi's perspective. It's only natural. Besides, we all know Eriko a loon who has it bad for one of the Hanadera professors, Rei and Yoshino are "tight". Sei is out and proud. If Shimako is anything like Sei, we know how her situation will end. Youko is "sexually ambivalent." Only one couple we can actually speculate about.
And let's face it, after Yumi's little reaction when Suguru tried to kiss Sachiko, we know where her heart is. The real question is, will we ever see anything come of it. Maybe it is just a crush or admiration.
And as for that double standard about affairs. I'm no expert, mind you, but I think it only applies to the wife taking a male lover. There are japanese sex manuals that show women how to service each other while their manfolk are otherwise distracted. Take that whichever way you chose.
MikoKikyo
2004-08-25, 22:41
I think the so-called sexuality we come to know are not facts, they are brands (no, not the Pepsi brands; the hot iron brands). The only difference observedc between traditional Asian societies and stereotypical Western ones is that, in the "Asian" society, the one with a non-conformist brand is considered a deviant and cast out, whereas in "Western" societies, people walk around showing it off like some really cool tattoo. We have become tempted to stamp a "straight," "gay," "lesbian," "bi-sexual," etc. on people and put them in the cold room like how beef is seperated to "loin," "sirloin," "rib," "tri-tip," etc.
Well put. I don't know if in Asian societies they stereotype us Westerns like that, but rest assured it would be quite an accurate stereotype. Does every homosexual here show off their sexuality like a cool tatoo? surely not, reaction is diversed, but in comparison to Asian's way of viewing sexuality, it's an interesting generalization. What I want to emphasize is that Western branding of sexuality creates a sort of societal schism, where each person has to belong to a label, that is, their sexual orientation. I completely agree that these types of lines shouldn't be drawn so strictly; it causes people to worry about their place in society, and encourages the struggle to match a feeling with its respective label, instead of loving their counterpart freely.
mantidor
2004-08-25, 23:14
yuuki doesnt want anything with Suguru!? O_o! what an idiot :heh:
to clarify something, since i live in a catholic country Im sure about the church's stand on homosexuality. To be short, the hate it with their guts, its not only sodomy, is any type of homosexual conduct, that includes even kissing... yeah im so screwed here ¬_¬
NoSanninWa
2004-08-26, 00:25
yuuki doesnt want anything with Suguru!? O_o! what an idiot :heh:
to clarify something, since i live in a catholic country Im sure about the church's stand on homosexuality. To be short, the hate it with their guts, its not only sodomy, is any type of homosexual conduct, that includes even kissing... yeah im so screwed here ¬_¬
You certainly are. If you go one way you're violating church teachings, and if you go the other way... well... we all know exactly what female mantises do to their mates! :twitch:
I'd recommend that you go against the church because the girl mantises are even scarier! :heh:
I could see Sachiko marrying Suguru and having Yumi on the side. I think she would take after her father at least in that respect. Suguru has made no secret that he will never sleep with Sachiko, so she'll not only have to go elsewhere if she is to produce an heir for the family, but she's going to need someone who loves her and will keep her sane given how screwed up her family is.
Most likely to be something from Season 3...but, here's an excerpt from "Maria-sama ga Miteru Vol. 13 Manatsu no 1 page" pages 46-48
"Dude, senpai. Are you seriously thinking about marrying Sachiko-san?"
"Hmm, Yukichi...are you jealous?"
Said Kashiwagi-san with a snicker on his face. Yuuki sighed obviously in disgust.
"Man, is that all you think of in your head? What I am saying is that I am worried about Sachiko-san"
"What about Sacchan?"
"If you can't make her happy, why don't you set her free by annulling your engagement? I feel sorry for her [Don't you feel any remorse for letting her into such mess?]"
Go! Go! My little brother! cheers Yumi as she gives a huge applause in her head.
"Hmm...I see...so you dare to say that. Then why not take responsibility in what you just said and make her happy yourself? I wouldn't mind giving Sacchan to you if you are going to bow down and ask for her."
"W...Where do you get such conceptions?!"
All Yuuki did was speak out for Sachiko-sama, but somehow he is forcibly being put together as a couple. Yuuki's face blushes red in embarrassment. As for Yumi, she too could not accept that thought. She loves both her onee-sama and her little brother, but the thought of them being together is too much to handle. She can't really explain it right now, but what's wrong is wrong.
"Especially since the only guys that Sacchan seems to be okay with is only Yukichi and myself. Although if there is a big age difference such as an elderly man or a little boy, she seems to be fine with them too"
I think Kashiwagi-san's explanation is way off target right here, thought Yumi. Being "okay with men" in this case more likely means that those men are not within Sachiko-sama's sight.
Besides, the more probable reason that Yuuki is fine is more so because he is her own soeur's sibling. And as for Kashiwagi-san, he's more like a little devil who was demoted from being an admiration to nothing but a relative. And for elderly men and little boys, they are not considered as "men" that defines her fear of the opposite sex.
"I think I can really look after a child between Yukichi and Sacchan. Oh don't worry Yukichi. I'll take care of everything about the Ogasawara Group business matters. In exchange, can you give me your child that you bore between you two?"
Look at him, he's still rambling on. Seriously, there are times when Kashiwagi-san looks terribly stupid. I'm sure he's highly intelligent since he was given priority admission to Hanadera's university but I guess its paper-thin as the saying goes (Japanese proverb: "Genius and idiocy is paper-thin.")
Suguru is kinda starting to scare me... O_o
Suguru is kinda starting to scare me... O_o
<Shudder> Sometimes I really wonder what poor Sachiko sees in that guy.
overfiend
2004-08-26, 08:17
And I thought Touko was the only spawn of evil in this show.
Actually, I was kind of disappointed in Touko, I had imagined her a *lot* more evil than that. But then, she is a Lillian girl -_-.
Why is Yuuki putting up with Suguru anyway? They're not actually friends are they?
overfiend
2004-08-26, 13:31
The only time I've seen them together, was in the first episode of Spring. Yuuki says he was dragged along by Suguru because he lost to him at a video arcade. Before that, when Yumi asks Yuuki if he knows Suguru, he comments that he doesn't like him that much. I say that Yuuki feels very uncomfortable around Suguru and tries to keep his distance as much as possible. Since they go to the same school, might be in the same class, and participate in the same activities it might be impossible.
That's just my theory. What do the novels say?
May I give you guys and girls some advice?
Hold your opinions until the 2nd series completes its run. A lot of things will happen, and you'll get a better perspective.I will just follow this advice and I give you all a warm "good luck" for the search of the truth in this topic :)
Yeah, let's face it guys, lets just leave our fates in the hands of the Marimite author. *omnious music* :D
[...] rest assured it would be quite an accurate stereotype. Does every homosexual here show off their sexuality like a cool tatoo? surely not, reaction is diversed, but in comparison to Asian's way of viewing sexuality, it's an interesting generalization. What I want to emphasize is that Western branding of sexuality creates a sort of societal schism, where each person has to belong to a label, that is, their sexual orientation.
I'd like to stress this is not a universal thing in the USA, and it's also (speaking as someone born in 1953), a comparatively recent thing. Identity politics and the public "branding" of sexual identity is mostly a thing of the post-Stonewall era, though one might argue it started earlier with public discussion of the Kinsey report. I suspect I could find people whose attitudes seemed decades in the past just by going to a more conservative suburb of the metro area where I live.
What may shift perceptions is that people who identify their sexual "label" in public are more visible that those who don't, other things being equal.
Regarding Christian churches, there may be strong views on this subject, but there's anything but agreement. A number of large denominations in the US have been arguing both sides of this since the 1970s.
There are fundamental historical differences, but I think we might find more analogies with Japan if we looked back to the era that Lillian Faderman focused on in her book "Surpassing the Love of Men : Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present". There was an era when passionate friendships among women were a common thing in life (and fiction).
I don't think it's just western readers who are labeling anime characters: somebody who writes Japanese pretty well is turning out some etchi bits of fan art.
At this point the cultural interchanges have looped around a few times, so it's hard to say that either American, or Japanese culture is unaffected by the other.
An interesting thing about Maria-sama ga Miteru is that we've got most of the plot revolving around the relationships between these "sisters", and everything is being treated in terms of the symbols of romance and courtship: half the first season is the build up to, or the aftermath of, Valentine's day, and who is linked with who is the main topic of conversation in most of the plot. At the same time, it doesn't read like pornography, it reads like a romance novel.
Yumi seems like the typical anime/manga protagonist: a little clumsy and insecure, to make it easier for the audience to sympathize with her. I give her points for admitting she's a "fan" of Sachiko from day one.
I may note that I've only seen the first season due to bandwidth issues, and I must rely on this forum for spoilers (which I'm seeking rather than avoiding).
The Yellow Dwarf
2004-09-02, 00:02
I'd like to stress this is not a universal thing in the USA, and it's also (speaking as someone born in 1953), a comparatively recent thing. Identity politics and the public "branding" of sexual identity is mostly a thing of the post-Stonewall era, though one might argue it started earlier with public discussion of the Kinsey report. I suspect I could find people whose attitudes seemed decades in the past just by going to a more conservative suburb of the metro area where I live.
[...]
There are fundamental historical differences, but I think we might find more analogies with Japan if we looked back to the era that Lillian Faderman focused on in her book "Surpassing the Love of Men : Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present". There was an era when passionate friendships among women were a common thing in life (and fiction).
[...]
At this point the cultural interchanges have looped around a few times, so it's hard to say that either American, or Japanese culture is unaffected by the other.
I agree completely, and my overgeneralization did take into account the recent cultural exchange that has taken place in the last few decades. For example, homosexuality between males in China has been prevalent and mostly public knowledge. Though it had been recognized mostly as a deviant "hobby" in history, recently many Chinese who practice homosexuality has become more attached to the Western idea of "sexual identity." Whereas they often will marry a woman without abandoning their other sexual proclivity (due to the emphasis on family in Chinese culture) in the past, increasingly more and more are seeking out only homosexual relationships and define themselves with Western ideas. It seems to me that Western ideas are spreading across the globe, for better or worse.
I suppose my own stance on this is rather conflicted, but I for one do not buy the sexual identity bit. I think there is a difference between "women who had passionate friendships with each other" and "lesbians who had passionate relations with each other." There is a quote that I've probably overused in my life time (but ironically I completely forgot who said it): "if I sleep with a woman doesn't mean I'm gay, if I sleep with a man it doesn't mean I'm straight." Because IMHO, there are no such things to begin with.
I suppose my own stance on this is rather conflicted, but I for one do not buy the sexual identity bit. I think there is a difference between "women who had passionate friendships with each other" and "lesbians who had passionate relations with each other." There is a quote that I've probably overused in my life time (but ironically I completely forgot who said it): "if I sleep with a woman doesn't mean I'm gay, if I sleep with a man it doesn't mean I'm straight." Because IMHO, there are no such things to begin with.
I think Faderman was interested in reclaiming women of alternate sexuality from the past, but she didn't seem to be trying to lump them all together so much as to suggest the spectrum of experience. When society isn't so busy drawing the line, there's more room for ambiguity.
I think sexual identity can be a useful marker for some people, but I don't want to confuse it with behavior, orientation, or desire. Society encourages the use of labels, but at the same time it wears down all the nuances, till they sound pretty dumb.
I think Faderman was interested in reclaiming women of alternate sexuality from the past, but she didn't seem to be trying to lump them all together so much as to suggest the spectrum of experience. When society isn't so busy drawing the line, there's more room for ambiguity.
I think sexual identity can be a useful marker for some people, but I don't want to confuse it with behavior, orientation, or desire. Society encourages the use of labels, but at the same time it wears down all the nuances, till they sound pretty dumb.
There used to be a place for 'wearing your sexuality like a cool tattoo', and I think I still understand the reason people do that. Alternative sexuality identities are still not accepted in mainstream society (I used to watch people flinch when I correct them if they ask me if I have a BOYfriend...) , and being proud in the face of adversity is a personal achievement and probably a good example for people considered themselves to fall underneath one of the semi-maligned sexuality identities. So, I understand that behaviour and I think if handled sensitively it can be constructive.
However, I also think what it does is send a message to people that all xxx an yyy behave like this. This is what you must be like to fall under a certain sexuality identity, and if you're not this, then you're obviously completely straight and going through a phrase or confused. This is a problem. If we want to catagorize people there simply aren't enough catagories - and you know what? People's catagories change daily. Mine certainly do. Sexuality is fluid, not fixed.
Whether or not the yamaYURIkai (did I ever facevault when I saw that kanji o_@;;;) fall into the 'lesbian' or 'bisexual' catagory depends on YOUR OWN PERSONAL definition of what that catagory is , which is going to be somewhat related to what your culture likes to catagorize as queer.
You're absolutely right, alunde :( I feel labelling these girls with a label that has such heavy negative (and also heavily sexual) connotations takes away from the magic of how they feel, and tries to push their behaviour into a box that it might not be in.
Kaoru Chujo
2004-09-06, 19:27
I feel labelling these girls with a label that has such heavy negative (and also heavily sexual) connotations takes away from the magic of how they feel, and tries to push their behaviour into a box that it might not be in.
I agree completely. The relationship between Yumi and Sachiko is romantic/sentimental, not sexual. At least not yet. There are sexual undertones, whether they realize it or not, but actual physical sex is not required to make this the beautiful romantic series it is.
The yuri aspect of their relationship may be a sign of their sexual natures, or it may just be a phase. I actually expect Sachiko to have a loveless marriage and a child and continue a pure, lifelong friendship with Yumi, with intimate moments, physical or not. We shall see.
I just have to say: I love this whole series. It is so touching, so subtle, so complex, so psychologically real. I really want to thank Lililicious for having brought us the original series.
Am I the only one who, after watching ep. 7 Haru, has just the sliiiiightest feeling that Noriko seems to be VERY interested in Shimako? I mean, I doubt the reason why Noriko keeps staring at Shimako's lips is because she likes the color of her lipstick (not that I think Shimako uses lipstick, mind you).
You can relax... I think some other people here along have gotten the same idea...
And I agree with Kaoru Chujo, the only relationships that takes obvious yuri-tenddencies is Sei's and Shiori's. The rest are more like very deep friendships/bounds, with no sexual tension in between at all.
Takemi_Ikazuchi
2004-09-20, 16:33
The novels depicted that Yumi was lusting at Sachiko's legs during the bouton date. I think that counts as sexual tension.
A lot of things in episode 7 counts as sexual tension
Diaphanus
2004-09-21, 05:42
I actually think Sachiko should tell her father to off himself and run away with Yumi.
I actually hope that's what happens eventually. :)
SATICO IVMIQVE AMABVNT INVICEM IN AETERNVM! :love:
http://s01.imagehost.org/0081/hmmm.jpg
I love that picture.
The novels depicted that Yumi was lusting at Sachiko's legs during the bouton date. I think that counts as sexual tension.
A lot of things in episode 7 counts as sexual tension
Well sorry, but I'm kinda stuck with the anime only.
Sharkbark
2004-09-21, 10:50
The novels depicted that Yumi was lusting at Sachiko's legs during the bouton date. I think that counts as sexual tension.
A lot of things in episode 7 counts as sexual tension
I've never seen the novels, but lusting seems pretty strong to me for Marimite. I mean girls look at eachother's legs all the time and think, "Wow she has nice legs!" but it's not a sexual thing. More like being impressed and envious at the same time.
Could you be more specific and maybe say exactly what happens? Note that I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm definitely supporting this sexual tension theory :D
Also do you mean episode 7 for 1st or 2nd season?
Ialdaboth
2004-09-21, 12:35
Also do you mean episode 7 for 1st or 2nd season?
Chances are Takemi_Ikazuchi was talking about 2nd season :heh:
Takemi_Ikazuchi
2004-09-21, 14:36
I've never seen the novels, but lusting seems pretty strong to me for Marimite. I mean girls look at eachother's legs all the time and think, "Wow she has nice legs!" but it's not a sexual thing. More like being impressed and envious at the same time.
Could you be more specific and maybe say exactly what happens? Note that I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm definitely supporting this sexual tension theory :D
Also do you mean episode 7 for 1st or 2nd season?
She glances at Sachiko's leg while she was trying on her shoe, get's flustered and berrates herself for having thoughts "not unlike those of a dirty old man's"
But in the end she concludes that it's not strange how someone could develop a fetish for that particular part of the human body
Yumi is a very funny girl :heh:
Yamano667
2004-09-25, 03:35
Well, some girls have that fetish, and I have seen it in real life girls
envy on another girls legs :D maybe its sorta bisexual fetish ..dont u agree?
She glances at Sachiko's leg while she was trying on her shoe, get's flustered and berrates herself for having thoughts "not unlike those of a dirty old man's"
But in the end she concludes that it's not strange how someone could develop a fetish for that particular part of the human body
Yumi is a very funny girl :heh:
GundamZZ
2004-10-05, 17:19
After reading some of the reply, I guess you guys are right.
In summary:
Sodomy is wrong.
Tribadism is ok, as long there's no infection.
Diodo is ok.
Although this show is about friendship and bonding, the reference of yuri(lily) is everywhere. It amuses me.
mintyfresh
2004-10-05, 23:17
After reading some of the reply, I guess you guys are right.
In summary:
Sodomy is wrong.
Tribadism is ok, as long there's no infection.
Diodo is ok.
I honestly have no idea how you can call that a summary of the past 5 pages.. :heh:
hooliganj
2004-10-06, 01:16
Some people only see what they're looking for... :p
GundamZZ
2004-10-06, 12:57
Some people only see what they're looking for... :p
Nice try. However, I don't fall for the taunt easily now. ^_^
GundamZZ
2004-10-07, 04:32
After reading some of the reply, I only had intention to summarize them. I'm too lazy to summarize all of replies. If you want me to do it, I can do it. I just need some time.
I just make one more response to one of the statement. Someone stated that cousin marriage is allowed in Japan. I was suspicious and asked my Japanese friend. She was upset. She stated that thing was thing in the past. It's just like the rest of the world. So, fiction shouldn't mix with reality. The law forbids marraige withhin the three degree of relationship.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/osiete/s505.htm
http://www.annie.ne.jp/~schim/ultima_ratio/joubun/minpo/402-1.html
I hope it clear the confusion. If anyone think I'm wrong, tell me as you please.
Okay, maybe I'm being way too scandinavian here, but if Sachiko is the sole heir to the family fortunes, that does imply a duty to take look out for them, but what she ought to do is step up to the plate and run the empire herself. I mean, honestly, does the pretty boy strike anybody here as a credible Magnate?
Also, that way she can have Yumi without letting the family down. Heirs? Thats what IVF is for. Of course this does require Sachiko to rebel in a fairly major way against certain parts of her cultural conditioning, her entire upbringing is a demonstration of the flaws in that cultural conditioning so, that seems like a reasonable enough response.
Except that the tremendous social inertia of a patriarchal Asian society not exactly known for liberality might be a tad difficult for a timid Sachiko to overcome. ;)
After reading some of the reply, I only had intention to summarize them. I'm too lazy to summarize all of replies. If you want me to do it, I can do it. I just need some time.
I just make one more response to one of the statement. Someone stated that cousin marriage is allowed in Japan. I was suspicious and asked my Japanese friend. She was upset. She stated that thing was thing in the past. It's just like the rest of the world. So, fiction shouldn't mix with reality. The law forbids marraige withhin the three degree of relationship.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/osiete/s505.htm
http://www.annie.ne.jp/~schim/ultima_ratio/joubun/minpo/402-1.html
I hope it clear the confusion. If anyone think I'm wrong, tell me as you please.
Read carefully:
第七百三十四条 【 近親婚の禁止 】
第一項 直系血族又は三親等内の傍系血族の間では、婚姻をすることができない。但し、養子と養方の傍系血族との間で は、この限りでない。
Article 734 [Prohibition of Incestuous Marriages]
Section 1: Marriages between third family-blood degrees in direct-lineage or branch-lineage is prohibited. However, this does not apply to relationships between adopted person and the branch-lineage member of the adopted.
The pointer here is "family blood degrees" as mandated by our Family Law:
From your perspective:
first blood degree: your direct parents, your own child
second blood degree: your siblings, your grandparents, your granchild
third blood degree: your aunt/uncle, your niece/nephew
fourth blood degree: your cousin
Hence, your cousins are considered to be of the fourth blood degree in which marriage is legal. It is highly unpopular now because of moral values introduced from the West - especially after the war. But, the law states that marriages between cousins is still legal.
If you still would like to dispute, bring your Japanese friend over so we can discuss this in more detail in Japanese.
Sailor Enlil
2004-11-27, 04:16
Read carefully:
第七百三十四条 【 近親婚の禁止 】
第一項 直系血族又は三親等内の傍系血族の間では、婚姻をすることができない。但し、養子と養方の傍系血族との間で は、この限りでない。
Article 734 [Prohibition of Incestuous Marriages]
Section 1: Marriages between third family-blood degrees in direct-lineage or branch-lineage is prohibited. However, this does not apply to relationships between adopted person and the branch-lineage member of the adopted.
The pointer here is "family blood degrees" as mandated by our Family Law:
From your perspective:
first blood degree: your direct parents, your own child
second blood degree: your siblings, your grandparents, your granchild
third blood degree: your aunt/uncle, your niece/nephew
fourth blood degree: your cousin
Hence, your cousins are considered to be of the fourth blood degree in which marriage is legal. It is highly unpopular now because of moral values introduced from the West - especially after the war. But, the law states that marriages between cousins is still legal.
If you still would like to dispute, bring your Japanese friend over so we can discuss this in more detail in Japanese.
Interesting.
Well in a number of countries, particularly those which are highly practiced in religion (like the Philippines), first cousins are not allowed to marry, but 2nd cousins are - a recent case being the marriage of son of the current Philippine President to his 2nd cousin.
I came across this though: a list of States in the US and their laws on cousin marriage:
http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/a/cousin.htm
If it's accurate, then 25 out of the 50 states in the US ALLOW 1st cousin (blood-related) marriages, though some of those allow so only under certain circumstances (eg Arizona - must be over a certain age, or if the couple cannot bear children).
Stephanie
2007-08-02, 10:49
So, so far we saw 3 Seasons..
What do you guys think now? Thinking any differently?
disney72
2007-08-03, 08:30
Interesting.
Well in a number of countries, particularly those which are highly practiced in religion (like the Philippines), first cousins are not allowed to marry, but 2nd cousins are - a recent case being the marriage of son of the current Philippine President to his 2nd cousin.
I came across this though: a list of States in the US and their laws on cousin marriage:
http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/a/cousin.htm
If it's accurate, then 25 out of the 50 states in the US ALLOW 1st cousin (blood-related) marriages, though some of those allow so only under certain circumstances (eg Arizona - must be over a certain age, or if the couple cannot bear children).
waaa really... my mom and dad are 2nd cousins.... hehehe..
Stephanie
2007-08-03, 11:40
Is it really in the bible not to marry your cousins? o_O
Or was it that society and the church decided this matter?
Fruitfly
2007-08-03, 22:57
Is it really in the bible not to marry your cousins? o_O
Or was it that society and the church decided this matter?
I don't think the bible says anything about forbidding cousin relationships.
It says no relationships with someone who is closely related with you but I guess that's debatable. I believe you're allowed to marry your 1st cousin in Canada, Mexico, and all of the European countries where most of the Christian people are.
Isn't the boys school that Suguru goes to a Buddhist school?
So who knows what the family religion is
Is it really in the bible not to marry your cousins? o_O
Or was it that society and the church decided this matter?
ya know.. people could *LOOK* in the bible to see rather than ask a bunch of noises that make up the Internet. There are some injunctions in the Bible addressed to a specific tribe of Jews but they were routinely ignored by the people in the Bible. In fact, you probably would be surprised at the number of "father/daughter" incidents between people "the Lord" thought highly of (like the legend of the family saved from the destruction of Sodom).
As some other posters have said, first cousin marriages are *legal* in most of the world and in over half the US. They just aren't common anymore because of the mobility of people. They no longer spend their entire lives in a small village. Its more a "mark of being rural" than any biblical or religious issue. The chance of genetic issues are almost indistinguishable from marrying complete strangers.
Genetic studies show the entire human race is quite tightly related genetically --- at most a thousand generations or so separate almost anyone from anyone else.
Shinto/Buddhist doctrine says nothing on the subject. Shinto is an animist/pantheonic religion with no written doctrine (though a lot has been written documenting it). Buddhism is directed at the connection of the self with the universe and overcoming the facades of the ego.
A visit to www.tolerance.org (http://www.tolerance.org) is a good primer on almost any religion.
Confessa
2007-08-05, 02:30
Wow...all of you are really into this discussion..
There's nothing in Buddhist teachings which prohibits cousin marriages simply because it doesn't deal with those stuff. But where I come from, the thought of marrying your cousin simply does not enter your head. We treat each other as more of sisters and brothers.
But of course, it's may be a totally different case in other countries.
Oh and from what I heard: SPOILERS...maybe...
In the latest novel, Sachiko calls off her engagement to Suguru. It turns out that it wasn't so official after all, and was based on a childhood promise or something like that. No one objects as well.
Anyone know if this is true or not?
Stephanie
2007-08-05, 04:08
@Fruitfly-san & Vexx-san
Hmm, yeah that's one way of viewing it..
(Just incase, I have no intention of marrying any of my cousins.. D: hehe)
Father/daughter relationship? o_O
Like who? :-O (Like, wtf!?)
@Confessa-san
Yep, you're spoiler, I heard it from somewhere here in this thread too
But I'm not sure it's true.. @_@
I wonder what Sachiko's parents will think if (I meant IF) Sachiko does love Yumi more than sisterly love (w/c everyone is still debating on) what will they do?
I did remember Sachiko's mother saying in the Manga: "My, you're petite soeur is so cute! Sachiko you have a good taste.."
@_@
Is it really in the bible not to marry your cousins? o_O
Or was it that society and the church decided this matter?
Come on. Don't base your life on that book. It's already 2007
she_borderline
2007-08-07, 04:19
I think it is more likely normal when a girl is attracted to a girl. I've read that females are 27% more likely to get attracted to same sex as men do. They say that girls who think they are less feminine looks to those who fits to what they think of the someone having the right amount of it and comes to a phase when she wish she is like that particular girl. From then, it all depends now as to how that girl interprets her feelings and how other factors influence or dictates that feeling. When adulthood sets in and a girl did not overcome that emotion then she has a big chance of being what they call "gay." But, who cares anyway. You feel what you feel.
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