View Full Version : Fansubs in danger?
PocariSweat
2003-12-02, 18:16
Once upon a time, fansubs were mostly done via VHS tape - this kept the visibility low and pretty much assured the fansubs were only available on a somewhat local level. Everyone played fairly nice since the US studios realized they help boost sales.
As people here know, the combo of digi-subs and BT has changed everything. It's now very, very easy for anyone to get fansubs and it has both increased their visibility tremendously, and moved it from a local to a global phenomena. The quality and supply has never been higher.
Mostly this if a *good* thing, but on the down side you now have people downloading these shows even within Japan itself. Sooner or later I know it will become hard for the US and Japanese studios to just ignore it.
Recently there's some signs the Japanese studios may be taking a more active approach. Winny - a popular Japanese filesharing network - has been shut down. This alone will make it much harder for many groups to get raws. I expect we'll see a real slowdown of new episodes in the next few weeks. Even more worryingly, it seems studios may be contacting the subbers themselves. It's hard to say if this marks a real change in attitude yet, but as things stand now it may be inevitable.
Now on to my point - what can we do? First, I think groups should set up a *private* raw distribution method that only fansub groups could access. Could just be an FTP site or something like that. This would make it easier for legitimate groups to share resources and keep the raw supply alive while making it harder for raws to be used by people in Japan as a DVD substitute. I know it would take a lot of logistics and cooperations to make work though.
Second - and I know this would be the most controversial - we may need to block Japanese IP address ranges on the trackers and on sites like AnimeSuke. Why? Well, because first of all it's not all that hard to do, and more to the point it would make fansubs less visible and easy to get in Japan itself. That alone might be enough to ease the fears many Japanese studios may be having about fansubs becoming a alternative to their own distributions. Yes, there will always be other ways to get the stuff, but it takes a certain level of ease and visibility before the studios will really be bothered. Really, it's not too different from the policy many of these sites already have about not distributing licensed stuff - after all, it's *all* licensed in Japan.
I do know that that this may impact a few non-Japanese people living within Japan, but unfortunately that probably is a unavoidable cost. Still, I think it's better than having the whole of the digisub movement shut down or changed into something more and more like a "warez" scene.
Well, anyway - that's my rant. I know it's probably pie-in-the-sky so Flame away :)
maxthelostboy
2003-12-02, 18:28
umm they really can bann all japan ip's? No matter how much you try there will always be piraters of licensed anime, napster went down then kazza took it's place. nice example. also the recent munto people telling the fan sub group to take it down was because it is licensed and the group didnt know that. and i highly doubt old old animes like rose of versallies seem to be bothering any1.
umm they really can bann all japan ip's? No matter how much you try there will always be piraters of licensed anime, napster went down then kazza took it's place. nice example. also the recent munto people telling the fan sub group to take it down was because it is licensed and the group didnt know that. and i highly doubt old old animes like rose of versallies seem to be bothering any1.
Yeah, you can ban a country's ip range, on Winny if i remember right, there was a small movement of people banning anyone not from Japan =P.
Winny is not exactly shutdown. There are just fewer peers on the network now. There were 2 arrests but I believe none of them were arrested because of distributing anime. I believe one was distributing hollywood movies and the other one was sharing GBA roms.
It would have certain impact on distributing TV captures on winny. However, even with RIAA actively charging people on sharing mp3 on Kazaa, it didn't stop people from using other p2p networks right?
PocariSweat
2003-12-02, 18:51
No matter how much you try there will always be piraters of licensed anime, napster went down then kazza took it's place. nice example.
The goal isn't to ban it completely - just to make the most visible sources of fansubs not part of the problem. Look at it this way: there will always be someplace you download licensed anime, but that doen't mean AnimeSuki should help out by listing it.
JPNIC controls the entire Japanese IP range...
http://www.nic.ad.jp/en/ip/intro.html
All you'd need to do is block the ranges assigned to them.
As for older unlicensed series it's true they may not care so much, but a good 90% of the stuff being fansubbed seems pretty new.
NoSanninWa
2003-12-02, 18:57
Honestly it sounds like a good idea to me. That way they aren't going to have to worry about our fansubbing cutting into japanese DVD sales. This might actually be a real issue if soft-subbing with Matroska or Ogg Vorbis becomes popular.
On the other hand, there are english speaking people living in Japan that download fansubs because their Japanese still needs work and it helps them to learn it. This would seriously hurt them!
PocariSweat
2003-12-02, 18:58
Winny is not exactly shutdown. There are just fewer peers on the network now. There were 2 arrests but I believe none of them were arrested because of distributing anime. I believe one was distributing hollywood movies and the other one was sharing GBA roms.
My understanding is the site itself is gone, but since it's non-centralized there's no way to shut everyone off. Still as node lists become stale and the program isn't updated it'll be harder to keep going. I'm sure raws are still available other places, but they'll be harder to get.
maxthelostboy
2003-12-02, 19:37
On the other hand, there are english speaking people living in Japan that download fansubs because their Japanese still needs work and it helps them to learn it. This would seriously hurt them!
Well dont most dvds come with english subtitles for them to use? why dont they just go buy a book or something, get a teacher, or try talking to real people but good comment:)
We should ban all japanise ips
Well dont most dvds come with english subtitles for them to use?
No, of course not. Then there would be a proliferation of Japanese DVD rips and DVD ripping groups.
maxthelostboy
2003-12-02, 19:53
my mistake sorry:/ well anyhow doesnt animesuki not support downloading anime thats licensed in your country? So japan shouldnt be able to get them then on account of all shows being licensed there like said before.
My understanding is the site itself is gone, but since it's non-centralized there's no way to shut everyone off. Still as node lists become stale and the program isn't updated it'll be harder to keep going. I'm sure raws are still available other places, but they'll be harder to get.
I thought the nodelist is generated automatically. As long as you can find an entry node to the network, you are on. You only see a few nodes you connect to and a few nodes connect to you anyways. The nodelist really means nothing other than helping you to find that entry node.
I believe eventually some other p2p programs will be developed to replace winny, just like winny replaced winmx (to some extent). As for no version update, winmx has not been updated for a long time, and yet it's still a very active p2p network.
my mistake sorry:/ well anyhow doesnt animesuki not support downloading anime thats licensed in your country? So japan shouldnt be able to get them then on account of all shows being licensed there like said before.
Fansub itself is illegal, period. It's just the matter if the japanese companies want to persue and stop the distribution. Personally I don't see why we need to worry about japanese downloading fansubs. There are plenty of ways for them to get TV rips other than winny. You won't go to japanese site to download Star Trek episodes, will you?
PocariSweat
2003-12-02, 20:23
I thought the nodelist is generated automatically. As long as you can find an entry node to the network, you are on. You only see a few nodes you connect to and a few nodes connect to you anyways. The nodelist really means nothing other than helping you to find that entry node.
Yes. I think it's like gutella in that way. I'd expect the entry nodes will likely become harder to find over time. Of course I guess someone else could always start up a new list of them.
I'm not sure about the protocol Winny used, but gnutella when it couldn't contact a node list server used to maintain an internal list of the last IPs you connected to - problem was if you hadn't connected in a while, they all might be dead. It also tends to fragment the network into isolated segments making it harder to use. On the other hand e-donkey/e-mule and DirectConnect have "hubs" which are napster-like central servers - the only difference is anyone can run a hub so it's harder to shut them all down.
WinMX is still around and supported. Releases aren't frequent, but I don't think it's been abandoned (the site's still up at least). Plus I remember they usually had newer beta versions not mentioned on the front page. I used it to access some of the open-nap anime servers more than for it's own network, but it always seemed a bit quirky.
I'm sure people will go back to using other P2P programs, but Winny did kind of focus all the Japanese stuff together into one place.
NenMaster
2003-12-02, 20:40
i say in a couple years we will have problems, but i think new stuff will be out etc, just think 200mb files with 10mb line, its nothing much is it :)
i think the average connection (adsl, cable) will be 10mbit + in a couple of years
maxthelostboy
2003-12-02, 20:41
why dont they just use kazza like millions of other people?
2channelers on Kazaa... that's a good one! :D :D :D
1. How would they know how to use it, considering it's all in English? 2channelers only use WinMX because there's a Japanese hack for it.
2. Why the hell is Kazaa any good? There's no hash checking, no security, no protocol, usually your downloads fail or are corrupt, most everyone there is from the United States...
outlaw55
2003-12-02, 21:04
The ones arrested were pirating GBA roms, and a AMERCIAN movie. One thing is for sure, if you pirate an american movie, no matter where you live, your ass is arrested. American companies = SUPER STRICT when it comes to copyright issues. The only thing close to a japanese company contacting the fansubers was with this one show (i don't know the name) but they were working out a deal with CPM, so I understand that (CPM may have asked them to as well, certain ppl working for CPM (i think the founder, not 100% sure tho) used to fansubs, so they may not want to take action against it being they used to, LOL!!)
Honestly it sounds like a good idea to me. That way they aren't going to have to worry about our fansubbing cutting into japanese DVD sales.
Where did you get the idea they worry about fansubbing hurting japanese DVD sales ? They worry about fansubbing hurting american anime DVDs sales (as they got money from selling series to american companies). Japanese people don't download fansubs. They download copies of raw anime, as they aren't interesting in english subs. Fansubbers get raws because the japanese exchange raws between themselves.
a_nevels666
2003-12-02, 21:29
One thing is for sure, if you pirate an american movie, no matter where you live, your ass is arrested.
Yes, if by arrested you mean 'have a small chance of receiving a e-mail telling you to stop'.
PocariSweat
2003-12-02, 21:37
I hope you're right - it would be good if fansubs aren't the focus yet. Still, I wouldn't just count on it staying that way forever. I've seen it too many times before - when something like this moves from just being a small group of enthusiasts to wide-scale popularity things change. Companies willing to look the other way before suddenly see the numbers of people involved and think "that's money we're losing".
Take a look at Emulation for example. Originally sites hosting old Genesis, NES, SNES, and TG16 roms were never bothered by the copyright owners. After all these games were no longer being sold so had far less of a market impact then Anime. For several years they ran as free and clear as AnimeSuki does now, and like fansubs, as the word spread and quality improved, it began to really get popular. Instead of just enthusiasts as much interested in the process as just playing games, the sites were flooded more and more by kiddies just wanting free stuff. So much so that at first rom sites were shut down because of excessive traffic rather than copyright issues. Eventually though the companies DID take notice - popular sites were taken down and ROMs became ROMZ.
I really don't want to see the same thing happen to fansubs, but saying "it'll never happen to us" won't make it true. Their are things we can do, and I think it would be better for people to start thinking about it at least.
PocariSweat
2003-12-02, 21:42
Japanese people don't download fansubs. They download copies of raw anime, as they aren't interesting in english subs. Fansubbers get raws because the japanese exchange raws between themselves.
If raws become hard to get, then I don't doubt more and more Japanese would be willing to put up with subtitles they don't have to read for the extreme ease BitTorrent provides. Lets face it - I've never seen any other P2P app as simple and effective for popular files as BT (rare stuff is another matter).
EDIT: as a side note, it's simple to test this - just look at this site's (or better yet one of the trackers) logs and see how many Japanese IPs show up.
If raws become hard to get, then I don't doubt more and more Japanese would be willing to put up with subtitles they don't have to read for the extreme ease BitTorrent provides. Lets face it - I've never seen any other P2P app as simple and effective for popular files as BT (rare stuff is another matter).
EDIT: as a side note, it's simple to test this - just look at this site's (or better yet one of the trackers) logs and see how many Japanese IPs show up.
Um... first off, it's incredibly easy to get raws in Japan versus here. The abundance of good connections between you and your fellow peers in Japan makes it quite easy to trade around raws. Hence, stopping the flow of raws from fansubbers to Japanese people is pretty much pointless.
However, for the BT you do have a point, but I think the proliferation of BT is going to bring to attention American companies faster than Japanese companies since for English fansubs, English speakers are the target audience. That may change with the whole distroing (crappy) raws on BT thing.
Lastly, Winny uses a text file as a node list, it doesn't contact a node server. Therefore, as long as you have a good enough node list, you can still connect. I'm connecting fine :) And even though the main site is down, the Winny Tips page is still up, so they really haven't done much (I go to the Tips page for stuff anyways, since they have more things on it).
I being rather new to the fansubbing scene, have to agree that the fansubbing is starting to get a negative outlook upon it. Before I didn't know anyone who got fansubs except for one person because he worked at one at his school. Now on the other hand 5 1/2 months later i have met all kinds of people who download fansubs via bit torrent. Partially my fault cause i told a few friends, they told a few friends and has escalated. Companies will start to look at this and it will be ugly when it hits the fan. Perfect example is how bad pirating is affecting the music industry. The have lost something like 35% of its revenue in the last 3 years. While fansubbing hasn't impacted it nearly as much, companies are becoming greedier and greedier. An example of this is If you live in California you know about the grocery strike. A strike that is all centered on greed. Companies will not be afraid to stop illegal pirating if they see them as a threat. With the recession that is going on in Japan and the hardluck that we have had here in the U.S. due to the 9/11 incident, some companies have seen a decrease in sales. Then to see that there are groups doing this stuff so that the public can get it for free will put a bull's eye on fansubbing. It may not happen this year but i fear the same thing that Pocari Sweat does. It's only a matter of time before fansubbing as we know it will become something of the past. I will be sad to see that happen but it will. Just like with Kazaa, you have people who only use fansubbing for free. They will not buy the dvds once they are released and that costs the industry lots of money. My roommate does that, I on the otherhand do not. I own over 190 dvd's all legit ones and will continue to buy dvd's of the shows i really like.
maxthelostboy
2003-12-02, 23:03
nothing lasts forever other than pirateing. It never ends . if anime dvds werent 30 bucks i bet it would be alot less. Since every piece of entertainment cant be seen as an art anymore just a piece to make money off the public i see greed striking the fansubs. Nobody makes things for you to enjoy just things for you to buy. Which is pretty stupid noticeing how all the money going to the music bussiness could solve world hunger and so many other importent things, and really has no other thing to do for society other than to waste it's money. I know alot of people wouldnt download anime if it was uncut and shown on regular tv stations like in japan instead of 30 buck dvds and 300 buck series packages for a stupid cartoon. wish there was a time when the world wasnt run by greed but thats never gonna happen:(
rayearth
2003-12-02, 23:10
I'm not going to bother talking about the future of fansubs or whether Japanese IPs should be banned from BT, but for your worries about Winny being "KOed" - don't worry.
As pointed out before, the 2 arrests were for a 41 year old sharing movies and a 19 year old sharing GBA bomberman ROMs. The original creator of Winny was not arrested, he only had his apartment searched. It's common sense he took down the site, or else it would've been like saying "sure, come and get me, I don't care if you search my apartment, I'm still going to host the program" and that attitude would probably get him arrested :P Winny also encrypts the IP and port of any node that connects to the network, so it is still a mystery how the police tracked down these 2 people (or they just picked randomly as Winny is widely used in Japan, just how Kazaa, WinMX and e-donkey are widely used in the west). One suggestion given on the Winny BBS was the sites were taken down to help (but NOT completely) stop the program being reverse engineered to reveal even more IP addresses of people on the network.
From what I can see, these 2 arrests were just used to make an example to scare others off. Much like the 2 arrests made in 2001 when they pulled in 2 university students who were sharing illegal software (warez) on WinMX. Some Japanese ISPs responded by blocking the ports for WinMX, but modified versions soon came out that got around the problem. And for anyone who does use Winny, you'll probably notice nothing has changed - it is just as easy to get stuff as before, old and new. As for those worrying about nodelists, new nodelists already have popped up here and there online, you just have to read the BBS to find them.
On a side note, some channels in Japan (noticably bs-i which broadcasts some of the HDTV raws we've been seeing lately) have put notices on their shows to ask people not to put their broadcasts on the internet (they had a notice on Tsukihime, I'm not sure if fansubs use raws captured from this channel, so you might not have seen it before), so yeah, they noticed, but it was the police that did something about it :P
I totally agree with you, but unfortunately these companies will not. I hate how this "Corporate World" has become, but it is reality and a sad one at that. I just don't want to see anyone hurt by this. But you have those groups who are doing American licensed anime and that is hurting us. It's one thing to do a series that has been licensed but no where close to coming out like say Gungrave the anime, but another when stuff like Chobits is out on dvd for a while now and companies are doing it. Look at Suteki Yumi, most of their stuff is stuff that has been out here in the US for months or years now. Giving fansubbing a really bad reputation, a rep that soon companies will not ignore.
nothing lasts forever other than pirateing. It never ends . if anime dvds werent 30 bucks i bet it would be alot less. Since every piece of entertainment cant be seen as an art anymore just a piece to make money off the public i see greed striking the fansubs. Nobody makes things for you to enjoy just things for you to buy. Which is pretty stupid noticeing how all the money going to the music bussiness could solve world hunger and so many other importent things, and really has no other thing to do for society other than to waste it's money. I know alot of people wouldnt download anime if it was uncut and shown on regular tv stations like in japan instead of 30 buck dvds and 300 buck series packages for a stupid cartoon. wish there was a time when the world wasnt run by greed but thats never gonna happen:(
Please that is one of worst excuses I've seen concerning pirating. People pirate movies that just came out which are around 8 bucks to see, videos which can be rented for 4 bucks. People will always go the cheapest route concerning any entertainment. Entertainment is a luxury so if you can't afford it do without.
Gungrave is alreay licensed. It will be here in due time.
maxthelostboy
2003-12-02, 23:20
i dont see many animes for 8 bucks to see in the movies:( and not many anime dvds to rent at my stupid block buster and they charge almost 5 for everything:( and its a waste of time downloading movies your right.
If you use the internet you can find anime dvds for under 20 bucks. Some places even take money orders so if you don't have a credit card you can still pick up titles you want. Using its 30 bucks and that is so high should not be a excuse these days.
Gungrave is alreay licensed. It will be here in due time.
It's licensed yes, but it isn't anywhere close to being finished yet. So it will still be a while before it comes to America. Like say a year or so. That was my point about Gungrave. Knew it was already licensed.
BTW dunno why this post is all like that, can anyone tell me what i did to make it like this?
It's licensed yes, but it isn't anywhere close to being finished yet. So it will still be a while before it comes to America. Like say a year or so. That was my point about Gungrave. Knew it was already licensed.
Looks like you accidentally set your text color to white. To fix (like I did), click on the edit button, highlight all of the text, and click on the button that looks like this A in the forum's text editor.
-- Sour-Do
AnimeMuyou!
It's licensed yes, but it isn't anywhere close to being finished yet. So it will still be a while before it comes to America. Like say a year or so. That was my point about Gungrave. Knew it was already licensed.
You concradicted yourself then. You said that by doing a series like Chobits it brings a bad reputation to fansubbing yet praise for subbing Gungrave which is license. To companies that is the same thing.
PocariSweat
2003-12-03, 00:13
The original creator of Winny was not arrested, he only had his apartment searched. It's common sense he took down the site, or else it would've been like saying "sure, come and get me, I don't care if you search my apartment, I'm still going to host the program" and that attitude would probably get him arrested :P
That's probably enough to make the studios happy - it's much easier to send a "chilling effect" to the P2P community this way than to fully prosecute a case. Especially because, depending on the laws, the program's author doesn't dictate what people do with it. In much the same way everyone who's been sued by the RIAA chooses to settle out of court because even if they're innocent, it's hard to prove and the potential penalties if they lose are insane.
Winny also encrypts the IP and port of any node that connects to the network, so it is still a mystery how the police tracked down these 2 people (or they just picked randomly as Winny is widely used in Japan, just how Kazaa, WinMX and e-donkey are widely used in the west).
Someone said in another thread it was based on freenet. Somehow I don't think that's the case because with freenet no one person really shares a file - instead it's encrypted and uploaded in random bits to the network as a whole. A given user may be sharing bits and peices of thousands of files, but even they can't tell or choose exactly what.
If Winny works like more conventional peers (where you choose to share files on your HD), then it's impossible to fully hide the IP. search results may not reveal it, but once you connect and start downloading a file, doing a netstat will tell you the IP of anyone you're downloading from. So will many firewalls - TPF, for example, has a status window which shows every connection each program has going and can log IPs.
PocariSweat
2003-12-03, 00:23
You said that by doing a series like Chobits it brings a bad reputation to fansubbing yet praise for subbing Gungrave which is license. To companies that is the same thing.
You're very right - to companies either case is using their property. However it does piss me off when a company sits on a license for years (as Disney has done with Nausicaa for example). Still that's just a moral not a legal distinction - I still don't think a place like AnimeSuki would be wise to allow it.
A much bigger problem is fansubbing is no longer limited to the US - it's pretty hard to convince someone in some other part of the world that because someone in America can buy the show, they shouldn't be able to see it at all. The Internet can't easily make allowances for stuff like that, so it comes back to haunt U.S. fansubbers.
rayearth
2003-12-03, 01:29
That's probably enough to make the studios happy - it's much easier to send a "chilling effect" to the P2P community this way than to fully prosecute a case.
It sent a "we lost 2 comrades, but we will fight to the very end! Zig Zion" effect too. Read some of the BBS, it's very amusing :P
Someone said in another thread it was based on freenet.
It was suggested, but it is not confirmed. While it looks similar to what freenet uses, the actual method to encrypt the addresses is still unknown.
If Winny works like more conventional peers (where you choose to share files on your HD), then it's impossible to fully hide the IP. search results may not reveal it, but once you connect and start downloading a file, doing a netstat will tell you the IP of anyone you're downloading from. So will many firewalls - TPF, for example, has a status window which shows every connection each program has going and can log IPs.
Yes you can, but only if you manage to pin point yourself into that single connection. The way that Winny switches between nodes all the time makes it not exactly that simple to find the IP of "that" node you're looking for. There'll also be upload and search connections as well, meaning another bunch of IPs to join your list. Also, for the average user, Winny is not the only program that would have connections open.
So in a controlled test environment, yes, you can find a list of IPs you're connected to and can probably track down these people, but if you want to pin point a node that is sharing that particular file that you want to arrest, it would take some effort - and police departments have better things to do :P
complich8
2003-12-03, 02:05
<prepare for more of complich8 babbling about nothing for a while -- this time I have an excuse though: I'm sick :twitch: >
Back to the "fansubbers have been contacted" thing ....
My group has a rule. Our number 1 rule actually. "Don't do anything to piss off ADV."
We have this rule for a reason.
Back when we were on aniverse, we were subbing some ADV stuff. Well, actually we had already subbed, and moved on, nothing was current. ADV's reps contacted the irc ops and had them tell us to stop serving their property. They did that to several groups, and some listened and some didn't. I want to say that was about ..... maybe 15 months ago or so? Don't remember exactly, but it was when we were on aniverse.
Well, about the same time, ADV's lawyers contacted our beloved channel founder's university with a cease and desist. Nevermind that that particular university has about a T1 for the 1000 or so residential users... they issued a C&D and told her to stop serving anime. Not that she was.
Since then we've adopted a fansub-group internal policy. Jerry Chu from Bandai issued a blanket request to fansubbers (and a direct request to certain people in the community) saying "please stop subbing our stuff." We no longer do bandai-licensed releases. Our policy is "if the people who own it don't want us doing it, we don't do it"
This still leaves pioneer(now geneon) and a few other companies that haven't told us to knock it off yet.
The way we view this issue as a group has always been that everything we do is basically promotional. Whether we sub it or not, someone will. If someone doesn't, someone will rip the dvd's when they come out. HKsubbers will HKsub and people will buy hkdvd's thinking they're the legal equivalent of R1's. If there's the demand for popular stuff, people will see it. If there isn't demand, people will get introduced to it. It's that philosophy that made me proud to see the numbers of downloaders for our work on L/R (a geneon property) rise from less than 200 giving it a try to more than 1500 people actually finishing up watching the series. It's the same philosophy that let tapesubbers justify what they were doing.
Now, I'm not going to say "subbing Enishi is going to make it more popular" -- it's not. Series that start popular and don't die to their bad budgets or poor planning will sell great, will be heavily downloaded, and will be massively loved by many.
But markets are complicated things. I don't know if we would get more people buying dvd's if fansubs were lower quality. I don't know if we'd get more fans if dvd's had niftier features (like those features in textsub, which are a bit far out of the dvd spec, but damned cool). But I do know that I like watching anime, and I do know that I like fansubbing anime. I know that I couldn't have EVER been exposed to nearly as much as I have seen if it hadn't been for the hard work of an army of digisubbers, who were probably exposed to all their stuff by an army of digisubbers, who were exposed to theirs by an army of tapesubbers. I've seen a lot of anime, and I've given a lot of things chances because I could do so for free. Does that make the authors of the great stories I've fallen in love with and the animators whose styles have captured my interests deserving of compensation? Sure. Does it make them deserving of my blind faith that whatever they put on my plate is going to be worthwhile to buy? No!
Something to draw a parallel to, however, is libraries. You can go out and check out the latest release of a book in the library. If it's something popular, they might have a dozen copies or so waiting to be checked out. Those copies will get read, and read, and read and no matter how many times the copy of Stephen King's "The Wolves of Calla" gets checked out from my local library and read, Steve doesn't get another thin dime from it. If your exposure to that book pushes your decision to go out and buy your own copy of it to read through at your leisure and without the drool-stains from the guy who fell asleep reading it 2 checkouts before yours, or if that influences your decision to go out and buy Song of Susannah in summer, that's great.
Of course, in digisubbing, everyone gets the same copy of the file, and the same copy becomes dozens or hundreds or thousands of copies (if you trace it right back to the source, the original file probably gets tens of thousands of people viewing it if its popular), and of course everyone can do whatever they want with it (much like scanning in the pages of your favorite novel to read off your computer screen at your leisure) but the drool-stains are there. They are the translator's, the editor's, the encoder's, the typesetter's ... as we make them better we minimize, but don't lose, those stains. We can't, we're human. We're not even getting paid for this!
Anyway, I have my doubts about 4 more decades of free libraries. I also have my doubts about 4 more years of free fansubs. I'm hoping that something changes the path the lawmakers are walking regarding information and ownership of it, but I rather doubt it.
So get it while ya can, it's probably not going to be here forever. That's all I have to say.
Why were you subbing stuff licensed by ADV?
complich8
2003-12-03, 03:18
that was like a year and a half ago....
we still do licensed. Back then we did whatever licensed we had. We were a new group forming, and that was kinda our thing...... well, I should say their thing. I wasn't really a "group member" back then, just distro.
come to think of it, when we were subbing adv stuff, we were still on dalnet.
Damn, those were some times....... less than 1000 people scrutinizing our every move....
I kinda miss those days. They were fun. But these days are fun too.
I never contridicted myself. I was just simply stating that, while both are wrong, I can understand those who download the Licensed anime that isn't going to show up in any stores or on dvd for a long while to come. In my opinion it is really much worse if a group is doing fansubs of anime that is licensed and available in the US versus those that do it for show that will take a long while to get here. Again both are wrong, but one is much worse than the other. I recently had to sell alot of my dvd collection, god that really hurt, because I lost my job due to some bs. To pay rent and bills I had to sell about 70 of my 190 dvd's and I'm still in the process of selling more to some of my friends who were interested in it. Luckily some of my dvd's are backed up like Ai Yori Aoshi, but most weren't and I will miss them. I have over the years put so much money into the industry, so yes I have downloaded licensed stuff and still do. Again I (well once I get a job again) will buy any and all dvd's of those shows that I like. I have a few fansubs of anime that I thought was ok, and will not be wasting my money on the dvd's. I am so wrong for doing so? I don't think so, but I am sure others people who have not spent nearly as much on dvd's will think so. It's a no win situation.
i say in a couple years we will have problems, but i think new stuff will be out etc, just think 200mb files with 10mb line, its nothing much is it :)
i think the average connection (adsl, cable) will be 10mbit + in a couple of years
ADSL in Japan goes up to 26Mbit (for $13/mth USD). People can also get FTTH which is 100Mbit (I don't know the pricing).
A year is not that long of a wait. Is it?
Doing a licensed series like gungrave could easily lead to another AJ/UV situation or escalate depending on the group. If groups want to keep companies from turning into the MPAA, they don't need to do licensed series. You did say you don't want to see anyone hurt by this didn't you.
maxthelostboy
2003-12-03, 16:54
A year is not that long of a wait. Is it?
Doing a licensed series like gungrave could easily lead to another AJ/UV situation or escalate depending on the group. If groups want to keep companies from turning into the MPAA, they don't need to do licensed series. You did say you don't want to see anyone hurt by this didn't you.
well all series are licensed no matter where and you are braking the law geting them anyhow. And almost every1 on this fourm downloads anime right? And why should we just keep whineing about this when we cant really do anything(including myself)
and it's so nice how people respect each others views on this board
Someone said in another thread it was based on freenet. Somehow I don't think that's the case because with freenet no one person really shares a file - instead it's encrypted and uploaded in random bits to the network as a whole. A given user may be sharing bits and peices of thousands of files, but even they can't tell or choose exactly what.
Winny does support the bits and pieces thing when possible. However, once you fully download a file, or if you share a directory, Winny will share the entire file until you delete it from the cache or unshare it. Hence, once you finish downloading a file, you'll continue sharing it. The cache IS encrypted, but if you have the right search keywords, you can unencrypt it. For example, suppose "Linux Appz.tgz" was one of the files you have cached. You may even know which file it is, but you'll be unable to open/decrypt/find the file unless you search through your cache using Winny and type in "Linux" or "Appz" or something like that. Furthermore, I'm not quite sure if Winny does en-route caching like Freenet. For example, if packets pass through you, I'm not sure if you retain those packets, but it's possible (at times I've had uploads of up to 5k/s when I hadn't downloaded anything).
To find an infringer, you would probably have to be directly connected to him/her instead of through a transport proxy node. However, if you infiltrate enough nodes in the network, you increase the chances of a direct connect. If you compromise a routing node, you can probably create a giant log to comb through of all the connections, and then find IPs of your colleagues who are putting in searches to find sharers. Lastly, you can also see what people are searching for in the nodes you're connected to directly in Winny, it's in the first panel.
I respect no one opinions. :P
I enjoy playing devil's advocate on this board.
Anyway what I say won't change anybody's feelings.
method
A year is not that long of a wait. Is it?
Doing a licensed series like gungrave could easily lead to another AJ/UV situation or escalate depending on the group. If groups want to keep companies from turning into the MPAA, they don't need to do licensed series. You did say you don't want to see anyone hurt by this didn't you.
While your right, I only have one answer. You may not agree but the only reason I have downloaded it, I want to know whether or not it's worth my money when the dvds come out. If I don't like the series, then i won't buy it. However, if the series rocks then i will most definity buy it when it comes to dvd. To wait a year and get it on dvd without even seeing it is too big of a risk. I have bought wayyy to many dvds over the years and wasted my hard earned money because i hate the series.
PocariSweat
2003-12-04, 00:22
Winny does support the bits and pieces thing when possible. However, once you fully download a file, or if you share a directory, Winny will share the entire file until you delete it from the cache or unshare it. Hence, once you finish downloading a file, you'll continue sharing it.
That's still quite a bit different I think. With freenet the idea is no one person really has the whole file and no one even knows what they have. All you do is set aside so much disk space - say 500meg - for freenet to use as it likes, but it's (hopefully) impossible for anyone to really know what's there. That's why you can't finger a single user as sharing a particular file. No one person is sharing it, but any freenet member may (or may not) have a bit of it at any given time. The idea is to keep it completely unrelated to what you upload or download, so when you get a file you get it from the network as a whole rather from a set of specific users.
Freenet's original goal was to allow people to publish files anonymously, but to achieve that it sacrifices efficiency. It's a neat idea, but not really very fast or very good for large files. It also suffers if too few nodes stay connected full time.
While your right, I only have one answer. You may not agree but the only reason I have downloaded it, I want to know whether or not it's worth my money when the dvds come out. If I don't like the series, then i won't buy it. However, if the series rocks then i will most definity buy it when it comes to dvd. To wait a year and get it on dvd without even seeing it is too big of a risk. I have bought wayyy to many dvds over the years and wasted my hard earned money because i hate the series.
What somebody actually said I'm right. This is a special occasion.
You have decent reason, I just worry about the effects that this could have. Someone needs to. ;)
What somebody actually said I'm right. This is a special occasion.
You have decent reason, I just worry about the effects that this could have. Someone needs to.
LOL! I know that it is cause for concern. Any time licensing comes into play it is very shakey ground. It really makes you wonder if you can keep going or are you leading to the demise of fansubbing, but then i look over at the stacks of dvds that i wish i never bought and that kind of drowns out my guilt. Never said it's right, just saying that is how i feel.
I am new to fansubbing, so I wanted to offer my two cents.
I don't pretend to know too much about international liscensing laws, or anything like that. But I do know my own personal right from wrong.
Is it wrong for a company to charge thirty bucks for a two/three episode dvd? No. Is it wrong for you too buy that dvd? No. Is it wrong to bitch about it once it's over and done. Well, yeah, stupid. Caveat Emptor and all that stuff.
Companies so have us at a slight disadvantage. They know which buttons to push. I used to be in marketing. It is a very necessary slimey thing. Without it, every bit of entertainment that we get would be bland/mediocre/middle of the road. The very thing which lets us escape from the dull day would become lifeless itself. What's the point? Well, the point is that we are in a dual love/hate siutation with any money-making company that provides us with a product or a service. Well love that they give us cool stuff, but hate the fact they charge so much for it. They love it when we spend money for thier stuff, but hate it when we look for other-cheaper alternatives.
Getting something for as little as possible is a human thang. It's an itch we will always scratch. Some scratch it until the rash is visible to any and all, some scratch it in moderation. In the past two weeks or so that I have been downloading anime, I have been cautious. It's not that I don't want to break the law, laws being open to so many loopholes and so much of it based on impersonal review, it's that I don't want to break my own personal code of conduct.
I love UFO Princess Valkerie. Do I think that it will ever reach the American shores as a release. To the strong goes the fight and the swiftest the race, but bet on your gut instinct. UFOPV wil stay in Japan. So will Battle Programmer Shirase. I could be wrong. But the moment I am proven wrong, I will, more than likely, save my pennies and get them.
I was able to get all the eps for Last Exile when I first started the downloading hobby. I didn't know that it was not only liscensed, but that it was coming out in the middle of December. Guess what's on my Amazon wishlist for Christmas. Well, all the Chobits manga in a neat little box, but I feel obliged to buy Last Exile. Not just because I feel that I bent my own personal code, but because it is a quality product (and I want a high quality copy that doesn't freeze frame every now and again--damn my slow computer and its ugly monitor). I want to support this industry. Last Exile made me feel good.
Anyway, I will close the rant and rave. It really doesn't matter if we abuse this thing. in the end, if the powers that be with the money we gave them and the lawyers they hired with it want to take steps to shut it all down--it will get shut down. I don't think that they will go thru the trouble to hit the internet. They will just make it obsolete. Concurent liscensing of shows in Japan and the US are already starting to happen. This will take the honest fansubbers out of the game, and make the dishonest ones stand out like a rash.
For me. I plan on getting what I can, and buying what I can. My friend started doing the downloading thang two years ago. He promised to support Love Hina and Excel Saga and he has. I plan on supporting LE, Gunslinger Girls, Chrno Crusade, ROD the TV and various others when the budget can afford it.
My two cents turned into a few bucks.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.