View Full Version : Fall 2004 series - Subbing List
An attempt to minimize oversubbing in the coming season.
http://www.andrewlb.com/fansub/pukiwiki.php?Fall%202004
Soulfang
2004-09-15, 20:17
Good idea.
Just a thought, though: wouldn't "Sesame Street" be considered licensed, considering the fact that it's an American show? Or is this something completely different?
Just a thought, though: wouldn't "Sesame Street" be considered licensed, considering the fact that it's an American show? Or is this something completely different?
I'm not sure, it might be a Japanese-made show with the same characters. E.g. I know in Russia they did their own (live-action) version, with Russian actors.
Mr_Paper
2004-09-15, 20:35
Try refering to this thread: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=19349
ChibiDusk
2004-09-15, 20:51
LOL, you guys totally ignored my sticky ^^"
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=19941
list with website links, of a lot of anime series coming up this season, winter, and spring.
RyuHayabusa
2004-09-15, 22:12
I hope someone does a fansub of MoonPhase. It looks interesting. Hehehe :D
Burner of Anime
2004-09-15, 22:34
Anyone doing Bleach?
clem-kun
2004-09-15, 22:46
Anyone doing Bleach?
I've heard about Animax and DeathSquad trying it.
NeverRamza
2004-09-15, 23:19
Anyone doing Bleach?
Bleach may possibly become the new Naruto.
Chao Otaku
2004-09-16, 00:30
Awww... no one's doing Beet yet ._.
Hope someone picks it up.
Akirasuto.
2004-09-16, 03:02
I hope someone does a fansub of MoonPhase. It looks interesting. Hehehe :D
IIRC, NLA will.
mayukhers112
2004-09-16, 11:59
Someone HAS to do Gakuen Alice....http://www.sonymusic.co.jp/Animation/alice/ The manga runs in Hana to Yume, and you can find more info about it on www.zaha.net . It looks cute and just great...
Also, what about the Lyrical Nanoha thingy? It seems to be based on Triangle Hearts, and it's obviously a mg-parody.
Kagari-chan
2004-09-16, 14:33
A dozen groups will do both Beach and SEED Destiny, there's no doubt about that.
Asura Zanmaden
2004-09-16, 14:57
A dozen groups will do both Beach and SEED Destiny, there's no doubt about that.
Yep, SEED-D and Bleach will be the next "big" thing. SEEDturds and Bleachtards! :fingers:
@_@... I've never heard of Bleach.
Kagari-chan
2004-09-16, 21:14
Bleach is a fairly popular manga. It's even being released domestically.
Thx Kagari. Heh, it looks like keep/anbu for this one eh? G'luck.
Anyway, I like this andrewlb site. It'll definitely reduce the oversubbing going around. :D
Yamano667
2004-09-16, 23:58
Well the artwork on to heart new tv series looks a bit weird ....
Oh well, it wont be like the classical anime to heart series that i remember :D
Thx Kagari. Heh, it looks like keep/anbu for this one eh? G'luck.
Anyway, I like this andrewlb site. It'll definitely reduce the oversubbing going around. :D
Dont think so but atleast its an attempt.
People hopefully will pick up shows they like.
I really hope that someone picks up To Heart.
AndrewLB
2004-09-17, 09:36
Thx Kagari. Heh, it looks like keep/anbu for this one eh? G'luck.
Anyway, I like this andrewlb site. It'll definitely reduce the oversubbing going around. :D
You're damn right you do.
But nothing stops over subbing.
dreamless
2004-09-17, 13:35
Good idea.
Just a thought, though: wouldn't "Sesame Street" be considered licensed, considering the fact that it's an American show? Or is this something completely different?
I think this Sesame Street here should be referring to the manga by Matsumoto Izumi, none other than the author of Kimagure Orange Road, which should be totally different from the American show...
Emeraldas
2004-09-17, 15:40
Hm. Bleach looks stupid. Hope the rest of the fansubbers lay off it.
mayukhers112
2004-09-17, 19:47
Ahem, after seeing this thread on the Animenation forums, (http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=156625) I can safely say that someone BETTER SUB MUSUMET! Please, please, please!!! Someone HAS to sub this....I don't even care about Gakuen Alice and Lyrical Whatsit anymore....please.. :heh:
Kagari-chan
2004-09-17, 20:33
No one's going to lay off Bleach... just look at all the groups planning on doing it...
Fellini 8.5
2004-09-17, 20:36
If there are any groups considering Meine Liebe, and wouldn't mind breaking in a noob in whatever grunt capacity, I really want to be involved in this next Bee-Train series somehow. Despite the "pretty-boys-in-capes" thing. :twitch: I've got scads of processing power to spare, some basic experience in encoding, and halfway-decent cable-modem bandwidth.
And if there's someone who'd like to try their hand at translator and who would consider starting up a noob fansub group with me just for the heck of it, I'm interested in that too. :)
clem-kun
2004-09-17, 21:05
If there are any groups considering Meine Liebe, and wouldn't mind breaking in a noob in whatever grunt capacity, I really want to be involved in this next Bee-Train series somehow. Despite the "pretty-boys-in-capes" thing. :twitch: I've got scads of processing power to spare, some basic experience in encoding, and halfway-decent cable-modem bandwidth.
And if there's someone who'd like to try their hand at translator and who would consider starting up a noob fansub group with me just for the heck of it, I'm interested in that too. :)
TheClem@gmail.com => email me and we can work something out. I would love to sub Meine Liebe.
Burner of Anime
2004-09-17, 21:12
Oh yeah, looks like no takers yet for Gunbuster2 :p
lamer_de
2004-09-18, 03:09
As you can see, the list covers around 6 groups. I'm pretty sure everything besides the shows aimed at pre-shoolkids will be subbed (and, well, you can't even be sure on that, the Triad seems to like those shows :P).
CU,
lamer_de
megumidk
2004-09-18, 03:45
I have worked a bit on the list in the top of this thread and added various pictures that I have been able to dig up, here:
http://battledolls.com/new/new.htm
It is mainly intented as a small preview page for danish fansub lovers, but until most shows airs, and we can get the reviews up, its close enough to english for most people to understand ;)
AndrewLB
2004-09-18, 10:11
I have worked a bit on the list in the top of this thread and added various pictures that I have been able to dig up, here:
http://battledolls.com/new/new.htm
It is mainly intented as a small preview page for danish fansub lovers, but until most shows airs, and we can get the reviews up, its close enough to english for most people to understand ;)
I don't know how Roxfan has set it up, but you should be able to use the AndrewLB/fansub site to set up your own list if you folks are intending to fansub things in a different language.
You can set up tables like this:
|~title|~link|~desc|~group|
|Blah|[[http://andrewlb.com/]]|Who cares?!|United Naruto Groups (200 members)|
And you can make the comment thing at the bottom with #pcomment
Lot of text formatting stuff here. http://tec-tech.org/index.php?Help
Just, you know, make sure to specify the language and whatnot. I doubt Rox would mind much.
Er, if he DOES mind, feel free to use mine: http://andrewlb.com/wiki
Rotweiler
2004-09-18, 13:46
I hope Yakitate and Gakuen Alice are subbed caused they are two of the more popular series in Japan. There's no question that everyone and their mother are going to sub Bleach.
Awww, now that I think about it, I also want to see Rozen Maiden and Genshiken. Someone SUB THEM PLEASEEEEE!!!
clem-kun
2004-09-18, 18:17
I hope Yakitate and Gakuen Alice are subbed caused they are two of the more popular series in Japan. There's no question that everyone and their mother are going to sub Bleach.
Awww, now that I think about it, I also want to see Rozen Maiden and Genshiken. Someone SUB THEM PLEASEEEEE!!!
Um.. check the list before you howl for a group to sub a series. Rozen Maiden is going to be done by A-Keep. Yakitate is is going to be done by A-E. Genshiken is going to be subbed by a Solar & A-Faith joint. Jeez...
Yeay, Yakitate Japan anime \o/
Muir Woods
2004-09-18, 19:59
Wow, so many new series coming up this fall. I need to check them all out to see which shows are of interest to me.
I really hope that someone picks up To Heart.
Agreed. I loved To Heart. I checked the list, and I can't believe no one picked up To Heart: Remember my memories yet. Anyone who subs To Heart will have my eternal gratitude.
lots an lots of series, but still lots of oversubbin...
but, ya...
Baka-Fansubs is thinkin of Sunabouzu (Sandpriest)...
but nothing is certain until something is done...
I checked the list, and I can't believe no one picked up To Heart: Remember my memories yet.
I can't make any guarantees, but if no one picks it up by the time the first ep airs, I'll sub it myself.
Muir Woods
2004-09-19, 01:12
I can't make any guarantees, but if no one picks it up by the time the first ep airs, I'll sub it myself.
THANK YOU THANK YOU :bow: ! For making sure that To Heart: RMM will be subbed. I'm really looking forward to it. What group are you in? Or do you help out various groups?
On the topic of oversubbing, I don't think oversubbing can be avoided. There is definitely more (active) fansubbers than new shows. Think about the ratio between fansubbers and new shows coming up. If fansubbers are spread evenly, there's probably at least 2:1, 3:1 or even probably 4 fansubbers per show. I'm not exactly sure how many (active) fansubbers there are in existence right now...
I hope someone picks up School Rumble. I love the manga.
On the topic of oversubbing, I don't think oversubbing can be avoided. There is definitely more (active) fansubbers than new shows. Think about the ratio between fansubbers and new shows coming up. If fansubbers are spread evenly, there's probably at least 2:1, 3:1 or even probably 4 fansubbers per show. I'm not exactly sure how many (active) fansubbers there are in existence right now...
That isn't really the explanation. If it was so, we wouldn't have several shows that go unsubbed every season.
I think you should all learn Japanese! Subtitles are a crutch for the lazy!
lamer_de
2004-09-19, 09:56
If it was so, we wouldn't have several shows that go unsubbed every season.
Would you be so kind and tell me which shows that are airing atm are unsubbed, unlicensed and not aimed at pre-schoolkids? I doubt you'll find "several".
CU,
lamer_de
AndrewLB
2004-09-19, 10:06
Why the hell is no one looking forward to Ring ni Kakero? Anime boxing might not be as cool as actual boxing, but it's still pretty damn awesome. Anyway, it's by the character designer for Saint Seiya. How can you go wrong?
Bah, if no one does it, I'll do scripts for it. Then half a dozen people will do it, heh.
brood-faun
2004-09-19, 10:54
Isn't Condor Hero Season 2 suppose to air this fall?
Man i sure hope some one decides to sub kakyusei2.
It looks, kinda interresting (eventhough i haven't seen the first show :/)
Or "To heart" Which seems pretty sexeh :P
Why the hell is no one looking forward to Ring ni Kakero? Anime boxing might not be as cool as actual boxing, but it's still pretty damn awesome. Anyway, it's by the character designer for Saint Seiya. How can you go wrong?
Not only the character designer, but the author himself! (Don't expect any realism. :p )
I know quite a few people that are looking forward to RingKake, myself included. I love the manga for it, so when I heard that there was going to be an anime, I was beyond happy. If no one else is going to do it, I'll look forward to those scripts.
THANK YOU THANK YOU :bow: ! For making sure that To Heart: RMM will be subbed. I'm really looking forward to it. What group are you in? Or do you help out various groups?
I guess I do both. o.o
Anyway, it shouldn't be that much work since it's a 13 ep series. Heh, look forward to it.
On the topic of oversubbing, I don't think oversubbing can be avoided. There is definitely more (active) fansubbers than new shows. Think about the ratio between fansubbers and new shows coming up. If fansubbers are spread evenly, there's probably at least 2:1, 3:1 or even probably 4 fansubbers per show. I'm not exactly sure how many (active) fansubbers there are in existence right now...
Subbers per show isn't a good ratio. A single subber can rarely do much. Instead, you should go by groups per series. When you do that, the ratio becomes much smaller. I think it's 2 active groups per series. However, when you count the oversubbing, there are bound to be shows that go unsubbed.
Don't forget all the older shows that go ignored. <.< Some of those groups could always look back and see if there's an older, unsubbed series they like.. the newest ones just get more publicity.
I notice that Beck is only going to be subbed by A-E.
Any folks that want to help me form the BTP (Beck Translation Project)? :heh:
o.o I thought the point of this was to reduce oversubbing. You might consider looking to an unsubbed show as a project. But if you claim to "really like the show"... I guess there's nothing to be done =P.
Enragin_Angel
2004-09-19, 20:19
Well, maybe what Sun_Tze meant to say was that he wanted to join #A-E's effort in subbing Beck. Either that or Sun_Tze is just always unsatisfied with A-E's quality o.o
Well, maybe what Sun_Tze meant to say was that he wanted to join #A-E's effort in subbing Beck. Either that or Sun_Tze is just always unsatisfied with A-E's quality o.o
If they want a Qcer that's a Beck fan, i'm available :heh:
KoroshiyaX
2004-09-19, 21:11
There are over 35 anime series coming in october. ~30 of which are not licensed.
I think there are enough shows to go around :P
I hope everything decent gets subbed.
Two shows I'd like to see fansubbed are Kannaduki no Mikohttp://www.kannaduki.net/ and School Rumble http://www.school-rumble.net/
I don't think any groups have announced those yet.
=o no one is subbing Kujibiki Unbalance?
it's heresy if Genshiken is subbed and not Kujibiki Unbalance, they go together like heaven and earth....... :p
clem-kun
2004-09-19, 22:00
Two shows I'd like to see fansubbed are Kannaduki no Mikohttp://www.kannaduki.net/ and School Rumble http://www.school-rumble.net/
I don't think any groups have announced those yet.
I don't know about School Rumble, but Shining Fansubs is going to give Kannaduki no Miko a shot, since it goes along so well with Mahou Shoujo Tai.
Meh, many groups just aren't announcing certain series. I guess they're waiting until the first eps air or something. After all, AonE is missing from the list. =P
=o no one is subbing Kujibiki Unbalance?
it's heresy if Genshiken is subbed and not Kujibiki Unbalance, they go together like heaven and earth....... :p
I think it's written on the site than Kujibiki Unbalance episodes are shown inside of Genshiken ones. If it's indeed so, then we will probably sub both shows together.
Garylisk
2004-09-20, 14:12
I really hope that someone picks up To Heart.
I'm considering it since I'm gonna be back into fansubbing in october. (Been taking a break because of other more pressing matters.)
Hopefully I'll be able to find raws easily enough. Maybe Saiyaman will have 'em. (I'm used to fansubbing from DVDs, so I don't know any good places to get raws really other than saiyaman and IRC.)
darkchibi07
2004-09-20, 15:04
I'm considering it since I'm gonna be back into fansubbing in october. (Been taking a break because of other more pressing matters.)
Hopefully I'll be able to find raws easily enough. Maybe Saiyaman will have 'em. (I'm used to fansubbing from DVDs, so I don't know any good places to get raws really other than saiyaman and IRC.)
Actually To Heart has been licensed by RightStuf International along with Boys Be.
Actually To Heart has been licensed by RightStuf International along with Boys Be.
Just the first season.
I have this nagging feeling that some people feel that a series that is subbed by more than one group is oversubbed. Firstly, avoiding having a situation where several groups do one project is impossible. Secondly, it'd be more convenient(for us leechers of course) if one group happens to drop a series.
Just the first season.
Actually, they would not comment, but said that they had everything To heart. (Which was taken to mean all the Omakes too).
NoSanninWa
2004-09-20, 17:45
I have this nagging feeling that some people feel that a series that is subbed by more than one group is oversubbed. Firstly, avoiding having a situation where several groups do one project is impossible. Secondly, it'd be more convenient(for us leechers of course) if one group happens to drop a series.
Nonsense. 1-3 versions is not oversubbing. It is redundancy. ;) It is only when 4+ groups are subbing a show that it becomes oversubbing. We only worry about oversubbing because there are cases where five or even ten groups sub the same show. Thirteen different versions of Chrno Crusade episode 1 were released by seventeen different groups. Four of them manged to release episode 14 before the license was announced. THAT'S oversubbing.
1. Chrno Crusade 01 - Anime-Keep
2. Chrno Crusade 01 - Animeforever, Infusion
3. Chrno Crusade 01 - TenshOniz-no-HamiGaki, Suteki-Yume
4. Chrno Crusade 01 - Anime-Kraze
5. Chrno Crusade 01 - Freedom-Anime, SD_Project
6. Chrno Crusade 01 - AnimeJunkies
7. Chrno Crusade 01 - chronoGen
8. Chrno Crusade 01 - A-M
9. Chrno Crusade 01 - Swordbreaker, WolfPackProductions
10. Chrno Crusade 01 - AnimeOne
11. Chrno Crusade 01 - Anime Kingdom
12. Chrno Crusade 01 - Anime-Xen
13. Chrno Crusade 01 - LunarAnime
14. Chrno Crusade 02 - chronoGen
15. Chrno Crusade 02 - Anime-Keep
16. Chrno Crusade 02 - Infusion, Animeforever
17. Chrno Crusade 02 - Anime-Kraze
18. Chrno Crusade 02 - Freedom-Anime, SD_Project
19. Chrno Crusade 02 - Anime-Xen
20. Chrno Crusade 02 - AnimeOne
21. Chrno Crusade 02 - Swordbreaker, WolfPackProductions
22. Chrno Crusade 02 - Anime Kingdom
23. Chrno Crusade 02 - AnimeJunkies
24. Chrno Crusade 02 - LunarAnime
25. Chrno Crusade 02 - Suteki-Yume, TenshOniz-no-HamiGaki
26. Chrno Crusade 03 - chronoGen
27. Chrno Crusade 03 - Anime-Keep
28. Chrno Crusade 03 - Animeforever, Infusion
29. Chrno Crusade 03 - AnimeJunkies
30. Chrno Crusade 03 - Anime-Kraze
31. Chrno Crusade 03 - Freedom-Anime, SD_Project
32. Chrno Crusade 03 - AnimeOne
33. Chrno Crusade 03 - LunarAnime
34. Chrno Crusade 03 - Swordbreaker, WolfPackProductions
35. Chrno Crusade 03 - Suteki-Yume, TenshOniz-no-HamiGaki
36. Chrno Crusade 04 - chronoGen
37. Chrno Crusade 04 - Anime-Keep
38. Chrno Crusade 04 - AnimeJunkies
39. Chrno Crusade 04 - Animeforever, Infusion
40. Chrno Crusade 04 - Anime-Kraze
41. Chrno Crusade 04 - AnimeOne
42. Chrno Crusade 04 - Freedom-Anime, SD_Project
43. Chrno Crusade 04 - Swordbreaker, WolfPackProductions
44. Chrno Crusade 05 - Anime-Keep
45. Chrno Crusade 05 - AnimeJunkies
46. Chrno Crusade 05 - AnimeOne
47. Chrno Crusade 05 - Anime-Kraze
48. Chrno Crusade 05 - Animeforever, Infusion
49. Chrno Crusade 05 - Swordbreaker, WolfPackProductions
50. Chrno Crusade 05 - Freedom-Anime, SD_Project
51. Chrno Crusade 05 - chronoGen
We'd like to never again see 51 different versions of a mere 5 episodes. That's an immense amount of redundant effort.
If anyone cares, there were a total of 95 different versions of the first 14 episodes released before the licensing announcement.
Maybe so, but for every group that subs a series already subbed, the chances for another series to go unsubbed increase, as we have seen every season. The number of groups working on a show is irrelevant.
I hope Yakitate and Gakuen Alice are subbed caused they are two of the more popular series in Japan. There's no question that everyone and their mother are going to sub Bleach.
Dragosmore said he will definitely translate it, but not decided yet which group will actually release it (he translates for a number of groups).
NoSanninWa
2004-09-20, 20:18
Maybe so, but for every group that subs a series already subbed, the chances for another series to go unsubbed increase, as we have seen every season. The number of groups working on a show is irrelevant.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what point you are trying to make. The tone of your post sounds like you disagree with me, you make some of the same points.
I agree that oversubbing is a bad thing. Perhaps we disagree on what oversubbing consists of. I feel that it starts at 4 groups. The number of groups working on a show is certainly relevant. Beyond that it becomes ridiculous how many groups are wasting their time.
Are you saying that 2 or 3 groups on a show is equally bad and should be counted as oversubbing also? I think that 2 or 3 groups is good because it gives us choice. Often a group will have a philosophy of fansubbing that I disagree with, so this way I can choose the group that I like best.
I'm in favor of the idea of coordinating fansubs, as you are, so that another debacle like Chrno Crusade does not happen.
I'm sorry, but since I am not a native speaker of English and have only lived in the US for 3 years, I often have difficulty communicating my thoughts in a clear and cohesive manner. My apologies. Please also note that all I am saying is just the opinion of a young and idealistic fansubbing newbie.
Oversubbing becomes a bad thing when it shifts resources to subbing something that is already subbed instead of something unsubbed. Instead of having all the new groups compete with "established" groups for how quickly an episode is released (which encourages speedsubbing), the new ones might consider doing something unsubbed for both practice, experience, and the download #s that most of them care so much about.
Anyway, yeah. Oversubbing shouldn't be described as > certain # of groups on a show. Instead, it should be for when a show attracts certain #s of groups that could be subbing other shows.
Indeed, choice is important, especially if a group is deficient in a certain aspect or doesn't sub with a "quality" mentality. However, it doesn't detract from the fact that oversubbing results in speedsubbing and an even greater overall decrease in quality.
2 or 3 groups, for me, is bad if there is a show that season that is not being subbed, assuming raws for that show are available and it is not licensed. Of course, most subbers will retort by saying that they sub what they like, which, frankly is imo, just rhetoric.
While coordination can minimize the amount of oversubbing by letting a group "claim" a series, it doesn't work when many groups refuse to participate. Also, certain groups might not have decided their shows for this season. Thus, increased consolidation is necessary. I understand that fewer groups with more people in each creates bureaucratic hassles; however, it is necessary for 2 reasons. More consolidation naturally means less oversubbing, since there are fewer groups. Also, it allows for some form of training, allowing newcomers to master their jobs and be able to produce quality work. Also, training them in that way tends to eliminate the speedsubbing mentality, which is usually caused by an inability to produce "quality", thus using speed as a means of attracting download numbers, which, imo, is the root of a group's decision to sub, despite what their rhetoric might be.
Of course, all of this probably won't make any sense, but I just think hate to see a series go unsubbed, which is why I am considering subbing To Heart, even though I disliked the pacing of the first season.
Garylisk
2004-09-21, 00:23
Actually, they would not comment, but said that they had everything To heart. (Which was taken to mean all the Omakes too).
Ah, but does it mean this new series as well?
I guess "everything" would mean the sequels. They're not licensing just the anime. Rather, they licensed the entire title and probably have rights to merchandise, games, and all the shows.
However, whether I sub it or not will depend on how animesuki, as my benchmark for licensed shows, deals with the show (licensed or not), and if anyone else picks it up.
Killerattacks
2004-09-21, 04:40
Like AvatarADV already said in another thread, there are many different license types, even for world licenses. "Everything" could really mean everything including season 2, but I rather tend to the interpretation "everything related somehow to season 1" which would be the omakes, merchandise, OSTs. AFAIK its common at least for non-american tv stations to license a US-show in seasons, not the entire show at once. On the one hand if the quotas are bad, they can easily drop the show and on the other hand, if the show becomes an unexpected blockbuster the original production studio can demand more money for the sequel seasons.
But it's ,of course, just guessing.
I guess "everything" would mean the sequels. They're not licensing just the anime. Rather, they licensed the entire title and probably have rights to merchandise, games, and all the shows.
And how do you explain the fact that the manga To Heart is being released by ADV Manga ? ADV Manga is part of ADV Films, not of The Right Stuf.
Your theory is wrong from the start because the main To Heart product isn't the anime, but the original game, that was hugely popular in Japan and has just now spread a "To Heart 2" new game.
BTW, about the character designs of the new anime series.... I like the older anime version too, but the new series designs seem to be based on the game designs, meaning they're the original look of the characters.
LordBrian
2004-09-21, 11:15
2 or 3 groups, for me, is bad if there is a show that season that is not being subbed, assuming raws for that show are available and it is not licensed. Of course, most subbers will retort by saying that they sub what they like, which, frankly is imo, just rhetoric.
For me, even if a show has 2-3 (or more) groups doing it, if not one of those groups is worth watching, the show is not yet oversubbed. For example, I'm forced to wait for the Elfen Lied DVDs to watch that particular show, because every single group working on it fails my quality standards (of course, I'm waiting for the show to be released on DVD because it's licensed anyway, but that's besides the point. This was just an example), even though there's like 6 or so groups working on it.
Oversubbing is certainly something fun to complain about, but I find it most useful as a tool to decide what I personally want to work on. If someone competent is already doing a show I had some desire to work on, I try not to waste my time duplicating their efforts. It confuses me when a group that clearly sucks starts an oversubbed show weeks after it starts airing, even though several more superior groups are already working on it. I just write that off as their being confused as well, and leave it at that.
The reason most fansubbers say they'll sub what they like is certainly rhetoric if you define the word as "verbal communication," but if you define it as "loud and confused and empty talk" (thanks dictionary.com), I will have to strongly disagree. Stop thinking of fansubbing as something that can be organized. It is not a single entity; it is not a company, with a single goal in mind. Even if there are several other competent groups working on a show I want to do more than anything in the world, I will still release my own version -- because I want to.
Fansubbing primarily is a hobby, and having you tell someone they're wasting their time oversubbing something really means very little to them because it is their free time to waste, and they will waste it as they see fit. It may make more sense to assign different groups to different shows, and make sure every show ever created gets subbed, but good luck with all that. If that's how you want to waste your time, have at it.
I don't really mean to steer the conversation even farther off course, but these arguments always bug me.
The main point of discussing oversubbing is clear: it won't just disappear. You will always find shows that will create "fans for life." One people's opinion won't matter to them and they will go ahead and sub what they like.
I don't disagree with oversubbing ("doing what you like") under one condition: When a show is being "oversubbed", the situation usually contains lots of groups doing one show, different versions, a rainbow of typesetting styles, different timing styles, encoding quality and mistakes. That's the problem. While I do agree that there should be different versions for people to choose their preffered style of translating, editing and styles I'm very keen on having versions released that are acceptable, meaning a small # of/no mistakes in them. A leecher might not notice/not care about mistakes as long as he sees some kind of a translation with video+audio infront of him. Unfortunately some of us care (yes, all of the fansubbers releasing shows with questionable quality should just die).
(sidenote: The anime market isn't doing THAT bad, if there's 30+ anime series/season, now is it?)
AndrewLB
2004-09-21, 12:15
For me, even if a show has 2-3 (or more) groups doing it, if not one of those groups is worth watching, the show is not yet oversubbed. For example, I'm forced to wait for the Elfen Lied DVDs to watch that particular show, because every single group working on it fails my quality standards (of course, I'm waiting for the show to be released on DVD because it's licensed anyway, but that's besides the point. This was just an example), even though there's like 6 or so groups working on it.
We might have gotten at least half decent scripts out for the R2 dvds if people actually helped edit them, instead of just using them to make hardsubs. Curse them.
KoroshiyaX
2004-09-21, 13:52
I have to agree with crumja.
It's more about shows being left unsubbed, which I believe is his point, rather than shows being oversubbed.
I have a feeling this season there will be a handful of good shows that will be ignored this upcoming season.
There are more than enough groups to sub almost everything, compared to when digi-fansubbers first started.
I noticed Shi-Fa is picking up a lot of stuff, I hope they will be able to keep up with their releases, as they've picked many good titles :)
Leo_Otaku
2004-09-21, 16:27
some look really cute and cool! I hope these get subbed :) (even if some say they will)
http://www.nanoha.com/ : this looks pretty cute!!! I hope
http://www.onmyoutaisenki.net/ : I dun care it i looks like another monster anime...it looks COOL
http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/beet/: interesting
http://www.sunrise-inc.co.jp/my-hime/ : very interesting
http://www.kss-inc.co.jp/anime/kakyusei2/: looks CUTE!
http://www.uta-kata.com/ : quite CUTE
ok I'm done.....
And how do you explain the fact that the manga To Heart is being released by ADV Manga ? ADV Manga is part of ADV Films, not of The Right Stuf.
Your theory is wrong from the start because the main To Heart product isn't the anime, but the original game, that was hugely popular in Japan and has just now spread a "To Heart 2" new game.
BTW, about the character designs of the new anime series.... I like the older anime version too, but the new series designs seem to be based on the game designs, meaning they're the original look of the characters.
Actually, I knew that To Heart originated as a game. Right now, there is no way, at least not for me, to confirm the licensing situation, so I'll automatically assume that it is licensed (might be a hardline approach for some).
Someone needs to sub Harukanaru Toki no Naka de!! (and the list has the name wrong... there is no "sora" in the anime's title). The series is based on a popular Japanese PC/Playstation/GBA game series and has some of the best character designs I've seen in an anime in years.
The plot should appeal to anyone who liked Fushigi Yuugi. Think of it as Fushigi Yuugi with a less annoying romance. :D
Darth_E_
2004-09-21, 18:18
Hi There, we'll be trying to sub onmyou taisenki. It's not confirmed 100%, but it's on our To-Do list.
Yours,
-Elly
Someone needs to sub Harukanaru Toki no Naka de!! (and the list has the name wrong... there is no "sora" in the anime's title).
Well, there IS a "空" in the title... but now that I look in the dictionary, 時空 is one word and is read as "jikuu". Or you've got an official reading somewhere?
BluWacky
2004-09-21, 18:56
Well, there IS a "空" in the title... but now that I look in the dictionary, 時空 is one word and is read as "jikuu". Or you've got an official reading somewhere?
The official TV Tokyo website at http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/haruka has the logo - the reading of the furigana above the "jikuu" kanji is "toki".
The official TV Tokyo website at http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/haruka has the logo - the reading of the furigana above the "jikuu" kanji is "toki".
Oh indeed. It's kinda tiny.
mayukhers112
2004-09-21, 19:12
OK, now I've finally decided that these shows should be fansubbed this season....well, in my opinion....
To Heart- As long as there's more Serika, I'll look forward to it. She's a witch, right?
Musumet- Clearly almost no one shows interest in this.... :sad: Someone, please sub it! It looks like Yumeria- A sort of team/sentai element, weird outfits, cute chara designs/girls....
Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha- Looks like this season's Komugi, and based on Triangle Hearts...
Gakuen Alice- Yaay! I wanna see this one...looks kyuute!
Haruka Naru Toki no Naka de- Looks more like Angelique than Fushigi Yuugi to me....hehe
I'm looking forward to this season! Oh, yeah, and the Curry thing looks like Parappa the Rapper/ :twitch:
Mr_Paper
2004-09-21, 19:27
The official TV Tokyo website at http://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/anime/haruka has the logo - the reading of the furigana above the "jikuu" kanji is "toki".Is that actually a new series or are they just rebroadcasting the original OAVs?
ricardocantuc70
2004-09-21, 19:39
Anyway, it shouldn't be that much work since it's a 13 ep series. Heh, look forward to it.
one thing i have always been curious about, is how the heck do you subbers get the episodes in the first place. Is there a site with unsubbed series or something????
:help: :fingers:
Yaoi_Pocky
2004-09-21, 20:17
Is that actually a new series or are they just rebroadcasting the original OAVs?
Well, the TV version based on the manga by Mizuno Tooko (which itself is based on the games). I'm not sure if the OVAs use the manga as its source material, or derives its content directly from the games.
I'd hope that there may be some overlap in content between the TV series and the OVAs, given that both are based on the same game - but not to the extent of porting the OVA to TV.
AndrewLB
2004-09-21, 22:30
one thing i have always been curious about, is how the heck do you subbers get the episodes in the first place. Is there a site with unsubbed series or something????
:help: :fingers:
I dunno man, where do you get episodes of Scrubs? Is there a site for that?
Getting Jap episodes of something is the same as getting eng episodes of something. Just, you know, in a different language. And over Winny. And really slowly. And also a lot more trouble than its worth.
I'm really really confused by this series. I thought that Shin Megami Tensei was licensed by Bandai, who then decided to release it as Fantastic Children, because they wanted a nice english name for the series. Isn't the "Fantastic Children" that is airing soon a completely different, unlicensed series? Can someone please clarify this, because Fantastic Children looks really cool, and I think it would be a pity if it goes unsubbed because of a misunderstanding...
clem-kun
2004-09-21, 23:26
I'm really really confused by this series. I thought that Shin Megami Tensei was licensed by Bandai, who then decided to release it as Fantastic Children, because they wanted a nice english name for the series. Isn't the "Fantastic Children" that is airing soon a completely different, unlicensed series? Can someone please clarify this, because Fantastic Children looks really cool, and I think it would be a pity if it goes unsubbed because of a misunderstanding...
This Fantastic Children is indeed licensed. If you go to the main site, and look under Links, the first (and only) link is Bandai. That's a dead giveaway that Bandai has acquired its license.
I'm really really confused by this series. I thought that Shin Megami Tensei was licensed by Bandai, who then decided to release it as Fantastic Children, because they wanted a nice english name for the series. Isn't the "Fantastic Children" that is airing soon a completely different, unlicensed series? Can someone please clarify this, because Fantastic Children looks really cool, and I think it would be a pity if it goes unsubbed because of a misunderstanding...
Fantastic children has nothing to do with Shin Megumi tensei. Shin Megumi is unlicensed and Fantastic Children is pre-licensed by bandai. Bandai clearly stated that Fantastic children was a new series that they had pre-licensed but this seems to have gotten lost.
Is that actually a new series or are they just rebroadcasting the original OAVs?
New Harukanaru Toki no Naka de TV series. So it will be separate from the existing 2-episode OVA series.
And it looks like Angelique because the video game Harukanaru Toki no Naka De and Angelique were both made by Koei. The artwork and era in each series are very different, though.
I say it's like Fushigi Yuugi because the basic plot is very similar: Haruka is the story of a high school girl who is suddenly transported to an ancient Asian-style world (Chinese-style in Fushigi Yuugi, Japanese-style in Haruka). Upon arriving in the new world, she becomes priestess of a god and is protected by a set of guardians (which all happen to be male in both cases). The names of the famous four gods Suzaku, Seiryu, Genbu, and Byakko are also present in both series.
Anyway, Fushigi Yuugi fans should enjoy it. :P My favorite part is that the main character Akane is a LOT less annoying than the greedy, whiny, loud-mouthed Miaka Yuuki...
loveableneko
2004-09-22, 22:14
i'm really looking forward to alot of the animes that are coming out this fall, it's to bad tactics got prelicensed, i would of really liked to of seen that anime
and can anyone tell me what bleach is about?
i'm really looking forward to alot of the animes that are coming out this fall, it's to bad tactics got prelicensed, i would of really liked to of seen that anime
and can anyone tell me what bleach is about?
Who cares find me a translator for Fantastic Children :P
I can find the rest myself hehe.
I know alot of people who thinks that series will own.
Take Care
Sakaki-
Burner of Anime
2004-09-23, 01:02
and can anyone tell me what bleach is about?
Nutshell?
15 yr old bloke with angst+attitude as well as the ability to see ded people stumbles on a really wierd and sarcastic girl in his house. She is a Shinigami [or Angel of Death] with the dual job of sending the recently departed into the afterlife; and exorcising those who have gone bad from snacking on human souls. So macho male gets caught up in her work and causes the girl to have her @$$ handed back to her. Now the only way to stop the rogue ghost [or Hollow as they are called] is for the poor fool to temporarily gain some of her powers and do the smacking in her place. Too bad he had to take ALL of it. :nono:
The problem with the setup is that the now powerless shinigami can't go home, protect herself let alone do her job- so the reluctant player has to step up on the plate and take all the heat. Add to the fact that he is insanely strong and the order the Shinigami belongs to isn't very happy a mortal is doing their work, and you have an interesting character and political angle to look at.
Manga is quite long, going into maybe 15-16 books the last time I looked [licenced already] so it's quite an established and popular work.
Ya, and I like Rukia [the Shinigami] a lot already. Spirited, acid-tongue and sly little Harridan that she is :p
loveableneko
2004-09-23, 01:11
Nutshell?
15 yr old bloke with angst+attitude as well as the ability to see ded people stumbles on a really wierd and sarcastic girl in his house. She is a Shinigami [or Angel of Death] with the dual job of sending the recently departed into the afterlife; and exorcising those who have gone bad from snacking on human souls. So macho male gets caught up in her work and causes the girl to have her @$$ handed back to her. Now the only way to stop the rogue ghost [or Hollow as they are called] is for the poor fool to temporarily gain some of her powers and do the smacking in her place. Too bad he had to take ALL of it. :nono:
The problem with the setup is that the now powerless shinigami can't go home, protect herself let alone do her job- so the reluctant player has to step up on the plate and take all the heat. Add to the fact that he is insanely strong and the order the Shinigami belongs to isn't very happy a mortal is doing their work, and you have an interesting character and political angle to look at.
Manga is quite long, going into maybe 15-16 books the last time I looked [licenced already] so it's quite an established and popular work.
Ya, and I like Rukia [the Shinigami] a lot already. Spirited, acid-tongue and sly little Harridan that she is :p
ah thanks for the short summary, it does sound very interesting
bleach is like shaman king + ur action stuff, well the manga is ok. i read it when i have really bored
overfiend
2004-09-24, 23:08
Is anyone planning on subbing Tsukiyomi when it starts?
Is anyone planning on subbing Tsukiyomi when it starts?
Tsukiyomi ~ Moon Phase starts 10/4 on TV Tokyo. After reading Newtypes article about this series, it is one of my must see fall season anime. How could I resist cute vampire girl who wears cat ears? :p Plus the director is the same guy who directed Le Portrait de Petit Cossette, Akiyuki Shinbo.
At least one group is listed to sub this series, look at the link in first post of this thread.
overfiend
2004-09-25, 14:21
Tsukiyomi ~ Moon Phase starts 10/4 on TV Tokyo. After reading Newtypes article about this series, it is one of my must see fall season anime. How could I resist cute vampire girl who wears cat ears? :p Plus the director is the same guy who directed Le Portrait de Petit Cossette, Akiyuki Shinbo.
I read the Newtype article too. That's what got me interested. Kawaii vamp with cat-ears, what's not to like?
BTW, I know there's a site that lists all the fansub groups and what titles they're currently subbing, but I don't remember the name. If you know what I'm talking about, can you post the link please? And if there's one for scanlations of manga, I'd appreciate that too.
Thank you.
Kagari-chan
2004-09-25, 17:54
I'm hesitant about Moonphase... the cat ears are a huge turn off.
BTW, I know there's a site that lists all the fansub groups and what titles they're currently subbing, but I don't remember the name. If you know what I'm talking about, can you post the link please?
I'm sorry, I don't know any other sites than Animesuki's group (http://www.animesuki.com/group.php) and series (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php) pages. :heh:
NoSanninWa
2004-09-27, 02:53
I'm sorry, I don't know any other sites than Animesuki's group (http://www.animesuki.com/group.php) and series (http://www.animesuki.com/series.php) pages. :heh:
Surprisingly that puts you one up on most of the people who use our site. :heh:
sarcasteak
2004-09-27, 03:40
I'm hesitant about Moonphase... the cat ears are a huge turn off.
Eh, don't worry, she's not born with them...she only wears them as part of her cute disguise while working in the shop. :D
EV|RockLee
2004-09-27, 12:46
I'm pretty sure SEED Destiny is liscenced, as soon as it was announced, and Bandai said don't sub it.
I'll be following good ol Haro-Haro/Anime-Kingdom, like before ^_^
a lot of next season series look interesting. Ring ni Kakero looks awesome.
New Harukanaru Toki no Naka de TV series. So it will be separate from the existing 2-episode OVA series.
And it looks like Angelique because the video game Harukanaru Toki no Naka De and Angelique were both made by Koei. The artwork and era in each series are very different, though.
I say it's like Fushigi Yuugi because the basic plot is very similar: Haruka is the story of a high school girl who is suddenly transported to an ancient Asian-style world (Chinese-style in Fushigi Yuugi, Japanese-style in Haruka). Upon arriving in the new world, she becomes priestess of a god and is protected by a set of guardians (which all happen to be male in both cases). The names of the famous four gods Suzaku, Seiryu, Genbu, and Byakko are also present in both series.
Anyway, Fushigi Yuugi fans should enjoy it. :P My favorite part is that the main character Akane is a LOT less annoying than the greedy, whiny, loud-mouthed Miaka Yuuki...
I can't wait...
Has anyone decided to pick up the project? Maybe Ritenkyo can do it at some point, though we have a few series now..
Awesome. Anime-Keep is planning to do Beet the Vandel Buster. I was thinking that no one would do it since it has generated no hype. Somehow I got interested in it, even though I know nothing about it. And it's shounen fighting anime, that's always good for me.
Can't wait to see it.
yes A-E for Beck. wonder when it airs
yes something for yakitate.
bleach is getting oversubbed
Beck is airing October 6.
Kagari-chan
2004-10-01, 12:54
That may be, but many of the groups on Bleach will drop after a while.
Tsukiyomi ~ Moon Phase starts 10/4 on TV Tokyo. After reading Newtypes article about this series, it is one of my must see fall season anime. How could I resist cute vampire girl who wears cat ears? :p Plus the director is the same guy who directed Le Portrait de Petit Cossette, Akiyuki Shinbo.
At least one group is listed to sub this series, look at the link in first post of this thread.I'm looking forward to Tsukuyomi ~ Moon Phase also....I'm a Cossette fan. I guess that I'll be the first to state that I'm curious as to what Rozen Maiden will bring. It looks kind of spooky but if it gets too cute...I can always deny that I watched a couple of eps. Fantastic Children seems to be an interesting anime and since it's licenced, I guess I can wait for someone from the anime club to buy it :p . Bleach seems a little more interesting after that last synopsis. I thought I read from someone on the first page that it was going to be like Naruto...errr....I hope not.
Hehe, looks like I made a little error, its "Tsukuyomi" not "Tsukiyomi", I quess I was thinking Tsukihime for some reason (one of the last year's top series, and soon buying the first DVD).
I have many series that I'm going to watch, at least couple of episodes and then decide what are worth following. I just hope that Zipang (http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime-zipang/) will be picked up by some group, or that its licensed... or I will just watch raws to see what its like.
I want to see this in action.
http://s02.imagehost.org/0204/yamato.jpg
rorosama
2004-10-01, 15:21
That Bleach looks like a hot one! All those subber and anbu and aone! Must be one of those instant hit series. What's it about?
mayukhers112
2004-10-01, 16:23
Ooh, I can't wait for Lyrical Nanoha and Mai-Hime! I'm pretty excited....I hope the 1st eps are released soon...on fansub I mean...
Tsukuyomi, Rozen Maiden and Meine Liebe are the ones I'm looking forward to. Oh, and Count of Monte Cristo. Is A-Keep the only group who'll be subbing Rozen Maiden at the moment? How about Meine Liebe?
On a side note, BNC Scanlation has scanlated the Rozen Maiden manga. You might want to check it out to decide if you want to watch the anime version or not.
http://bnc-scanilations.mori-kun.co.uk/
Kagari-chan
2004-10-02, 12:14
That Bleach looks like a hot one! All those subber and anbu and aone! Must be one of those instant hit series. What's it about?
That would be ANBU and A-Keep :P Why do people always associate ANBU jointing with Aone?
... No Bleach promo yet... and it is relased in 3 days... weird... :confused:
I was really interested in watching "To Heart - RMM", but after reading some reviews, it seems they went back to the old ero-game character designs instead of the better looking 1st season ones. What a big let down :(
Reviews: JASCII (http://www.jascii.net/newanime/jascii.php?jascii_view=173), Momotato Daioh (http://home.nc.rr.com/momotato/index.html)
Muir Woods
2004-10-02, 22:47
I was really interested in watching "To Heart - RMM", but after reading some reviews, it seems they went back to the old ero-game character designs instead of the better looking 1st season ones. What a big let down :(
Reviews: JASCII (http://www.jascii.net/newanime/jascii.php?jascii_view=173), Momotato Daioh (http://home.nc.rr.com/momotato/index.html)
Thanks for the links. Darn, doesn't seem to be glowing reviews for To Heart RMM. I compared the animation between the two, and I also much prefer the first season's than RMM. Here's a character comparison (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Kottke/Anime/ToHeartcharactercomparision.jpg) courtesy of 4chan. Oh well, I'm a bit disheartened, but I'm still gonna follow it. I love Akari...
Tsukuyomi, Rozen Maiden and Meine Liebe are the ones I'm looking forward to. Oh, and Count of Monte Cristo. Is A-Keep the only group who'll be subbing Rozen Maiden at the moment? How about Meine Liebe?
On a side note, BNC Scanlation has scanlated the Rozen Maiden manga. You might want to check it out to decide if you want to watch the anime version or not.
http://bnc-scanilations.mori-kun.co.uk/Thanks. The first 2 eps of Windy Tales is apparently subbed and out. I'm kind of taking a liking to it. It has a story that I'm curious to know about.
Hehe, looks like I made a little error, its "Tsukuyomi" not "Tsukiyomi", I quess I was thinking Tsukihime for some reason (one of the last year's top series, and soon buying the first DVD).
I have many series that I'm going to watch, at least couple of episodes and then decide what are worth following. I just hope that Zipang (http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime-zipang/) will be picked up by some group, or that its licensed... or I will just watch raws to see what its like.
I want to see this in action.
(picture)
I would too, but then I see it's being animated by Studio Deen and I forget about it. Unfortunately the only instance where I could ever associate quality animation with Studio Deen would be the Rurouni Kenshin OVA 1 and 2. That's all. Not that I've seen every title of theirs, of course, but... well... okay, I'm biased against Studio DEEN in terms of animation quality, and against GONZO in terms of type of story for anime they put out...
I was hesistant about Kannazuki no Miko, but it looks a bit more than I expected so maybe I'll check it out...
ChibiDusk
2004-10-06, 15:34
Didn't studio DEEN do Get Backers? Amazing animation there, no doubt about that.
I'm really hoping one of theese groups will sub Meine Liebe: A-Keep, A-kraze, A-Empire, A-ONE, Traid or Lunar :)
LordBrian
2004-10-06, 20:37
Triad will not be doing Meine Liebe.
dreamless
2004-10-08, 06:15
I have many series that I'm going to watch, at least couple of episodes and then decide what are worth following. I just hope that Zipang (http://www.tbs.co.jp/anime-zipang/) will be picked up by some group, or that its licensed... or I will just watch raws to see what its like.
I want to see this in action.For me, I really don't know what to say about Zipang. The war anime fan inside me want to see this subbed, but as a non-Japanese Asian I want to discourage any group from subbing it. I want to see an anime about the Asian front of WW2, but I don't want it to be some Japanese right wing stuff... AEGIS in 1942, yea, something fun for the Japanese I guess :uhoh:
For me, I really don't know what to say about Zipang. The war anime fan inside me want to see this subbed, but as a non-Japanese Asian I want to discourage any group from subbing it. I want to see an anime about the Asian front of WW2, but I don't want it to be some Japanese right wing stuff... AEGIS in 1942, yea, something fun for the Japanese I guess :uhoh: It didn't look too shabby from a quick look that I had, but I won't be adding it to my record list. Not about its subject matter, which is of no bother to me despite its nationalistic bent (and I would say that about any country going all gung-ho, to be honest) but I can understand other people's perspectives, but rather it's airing at around the same time as "Mai HiME". From a rewards perspective, "Mai HiME" is better, IMHO... or a good drama series. Hmm.
/me goes digging for a list of the new fall dramas...
dreamless
2004-10-08, 06:55
It didn't look too shabby from a quick look that I had, but I won't be adding it to my record list. Not about its subject matter, which is of no bother to me despite its nationalistic bent (and I would say that about any country going all gung-ho, to be honest) but I can understand other people's perspectives, but rather it's airing at around the same time as "Mai HiME". From a rewards perspective, "Mai HiME" is better, IMHO... or a good drama series. Hmm.
/me goes digging for a list of the new fall dramas...
well, personally I don't mind some nationalist bent, but Zipang is really going over the limit... I actually enjoyed the early chapters of the manga somewhat, but later when they are doing more and more stuff for the Japanese side, it's a bit too much for me... For WW2 manga, I really like Murakami Motoka's Dragon -RON- and I'd like it to turn into an anime... but I guess the seriousness and quite balanced take on the WW2 Asian front of the manga will make that next to impossible. I'd say it still favors the Japanese side a bit, but it can show a much more balanced view of the situation and doesn't feel like some Japanese right wing stuff :uhoh:
well, I guess what I'm trying to say with this post is... yup, I highly recommend Murakami Motoka's Dragon -RON-, anyone who want to read a manga set in WW2 Asia should try to get it if you can :D
Oh, just noticed it, so is it confirmed that the sesame street is the japanese version of the american show, not the manga by Matsumoto Izumi?
FlyByNite
2004-10-08, 07:55
well, personally I don't mind some nationalist bent, but Zipang is really going over the limit... I actually enjoyed the early chapters of the manga somewhat, but later when they are doing more and more stuff for the Japanese side, it's a bit too much for me... For WW2 manga, I really like Murakami Motoka's Dragon -RON- and I'd like it to turn into an anime... but I guess the seriousness and quite balanced take on the WW2 Asian front of the manga will make that next to impossible. I'd say it still favors the Japanese side a bit, but it can show a much more balanced view of the situation and doesn't feel like some Japanese right wing stuff :uhoh:
well, I guess what I'm trying to say with this post is... yup, I highly recommend Murakami Motoka's Dragon -RON-, anyone who want to read a manga set in WW2 Asia should try to get it if you can :D
Oh, just noticed it, so is it confirmed that the sesame street is the japanese version of the american show, not the manga by Matsumoto Izumi?
I'm not too familiar with Zipang, but this is the anime with the modern day japanese naval ship going back in time to WW2? They then fight for the Japanese side with those modern weapons?
I'm a fan of alternate history novels, read a lot of Turtledove's stuff. So I'd be looking forward to seeing how this is actually.
dreamless
2004-10-08, 08:30
I'm not too familiar with Zipang, but this is the anime with the modern day japanese naval ship going back in time to WW2? They then fight for the Japanese side with those modern weapons?
I'm a fan of alternate history novels, read a lot of Turtledove's stuff. So I'd be looking forward to seeing how this is actually.
well, not fight for the Japanese side (if that's the case, I'd trash it instantly), actually the crew at first decided that they shouldn't interfere with history, and supposedly it has an anti-war theme, but in actuality they do a LOT things that favor the Japanese side... and more and more later on... and they interfere with history more and more... that's when I stopped with the manga...
Anyway yup Zipang is the manga (now anime) with a JDF AEGIS ship somehow time-jumped back to 1942, and starts to interfere with history to prevent the Japanese losing the war. I think someone made an analogy to the western front of WW2, it's like to tell a story that a German ship time jumped back to WW2 and saved Germany and try to build a peaceful country that's not aggressive expansionism nor suffer the shame of defeat, that is, after millions of Jews got massacred and all those horrible deeds german troops had done to other countries. Yup, you may say that you just want to build a peaceful country without a shameful defeat in history, but the fact remains that you don't want to repent for your war crimes and are ignoring the sufferings your country caused to others. :rolleyes:
Tofusensei
2004-10-08, 09:13
well, not fight for the Japanese side (if that's the case, I'd trash it instantly), actually the crew at first decided that they shouldn't interfere with history, and supposedly it has an anti-war theme, but in actuality they do a LOT things that favor the Japanese side... and more and more later on... and they interfere with history more and more... that's when I stopped with the manga...
Anyway yup Zipang is the manga (now anime) with a JDF AEGIS ship somehow time-jumped back to 1942, and starts to interfere with history to prevent the Japanese losing the war. I think someone made an analogy to the western front of WW2, it's like to tell a story that a German ship time jumped back to WW2 and saved Germany and try to build a peaceful country that's not aggressive expansionism nor suffer the shame of defeat, that is, after millions of Jews got massacred and all those horrible deeds german troops had done to other countries. Yup, you may say that you just want to build a peaceful country without a shameful defeat in history, but the fact remains that you don't want to repent for your war crimes and are ignoring the sufferings your country caused to others. :rolleyes:
Yeah, but Japan's never repented for their war crimes anyway, so how is it different? (yes, I went there :O)
Wait, I misread your point, I think >_<
You have to understand this giant new wave of neo-historical revisionism in Japan right now. It's only getting worse and worse, at a civil and governmental level. I'm actually doing heavy research into this now for a book I plan to write at the moment :X Maybe this manga is worth reading after all.
-Tofu
dreamless
2004-10-08, 09:57
well, to give credit where it's due, Zipang is a technically speaking very good manga, both the military and political part are quite well-done, it's not some "MWAHAHAHAHA I have a super weapon and I'll blow you all up" stuff, but quite a deep and realistic (so to speak) story when it comes to the influence of the ship had on history and how the plot develops... I like the idea that the most powerful weapon this ship brings with it to the past is not this most advanced modern war ship itself, sure it can defeat maybe half a fleet of 1942 on its own, but the real powerful weapon it brings is the information about the future, and how the information is used. Expected from Kawaguchi Kaiji, the author of the Silent Service series, I'd say...
Anyway yes I'm pissed off at that a "pacifist" Japanese imperial intelligence officer try to use the information to prevent Japan's "shameful" defeat and build a "peaceful, strong, happy, independent" Japan called Zipang. And I'm pissed off at that guy saying "this war is the biggest mistake Japan has ever made", NOT because he thinks it's wrong to invade other countries and start horrible wars and massacre civilians, but rather that he now knows that Japan won't be able to win the war :rolleyes: No, I don't want to see such a guy to be portrayed a protagonist and a "good guy", despite how good the story technically is. I mean, can anyone enjoy something like half-way into WW2, a "pacifist" Nazi who wants to build a "peaceful, strong, happy, independent" Third Reich that can co-exist peacefully with the countries they have not taken over yet, despite how good the story may be?
LordBrian
2004-10-08, 14:38
I mean, can anyone enjoy something like half-way into WW2, a "pacifist" Nazi who wants to build a "peaceful, strong, happy, independent" Third Reich that can co-exist peacefully with the countries they have not taken over yet, despite how good the story may be?
If the story is really good? Yes.
Because some of us can enjoy fiction for what it's meant to be.
dreamless
2004-10-08, 16:09
If the story is really good? Yes.
Because some of us can enjoy fiction for what it's meant to be.
heh, I doubt any Jews will enjoy that anyway. And I have no problem about fictions, but there's a line between what's a fiction and what's an insult, and what's downright intolerable. If your family members got killed by a serial killer and that killer got arrested, and someone write a "fiction" of how that killer killed your family (this part based on what really happened) and then got away to lead a good life ("fiction" part), will you be happy to read that "fiction"? You can enjoy this "fiction" for what it's meant to be (ie. to make fun of your family's death) because it has a good story? I'd like to know who are those "some of us" who can enjoy that kind of "fictions" :rolleyes:
I'd say Zipang crossed the line here. It's no longer "just a fiction". It takes too much historical and political and nationalistic stuff into itself. What's it meant to be? I'd say it's meant to be that so-called "neo-historical revisionism" and support to those right wing stuff and Japanese nationalism.
Hm, LordBrian is right. Sounds like someone has either an enormous chip on their shoulder or is way too noble for their own good. It's fiction, not a revisionist history. From what I heard, Zipang is full of what one person who read the manga described as "pacifistic whining". Hardly gung-ho revisionist stuff. Seriously, just put the past behind and leave it in the past. My mother is indonesian, and was born at the tail end of the japanese occupation of Indonesia. My grandfather was JAILED for 6 months by the japanese, and you don't hear me complaining about how evil Zipang is. Not trying to fan any flames here, but how do you think the Germans feel when they watch something like "Saving Private Ryan"? Or when the japanese watch something like "Pearl Harbor" or "Tora! Tora! Tora!"? I doubt they get that worked up over it...and both of those are less works of fiction than Zipang is.
When Leiji Matsumoto penned "The Cockpit" and then turned it into an OVA, did anyone line up and decry it as revisionist, portraying the "Bad guys" as "good"? 1 of the stories was about a luftwaffe pilot. EVIL NAZIS! How can this be? An outrage I say! The answer to that is "no", because everyone realizes that not everyone on the other side of a war is a bad guy, and its all history....in the past.
Out of all the anime this fall, Zipang aroused my interest the most. Just getting my hands on the raw today... the first ep. was stunning, i thought. Well animated, tons of detail, GREAT music. Nice OP, too. First ep. was very slow, but having read a tad of the manga, I can see this is going to be quite nice. Someone is bound to pick this up and do it.
LordBrian
2004-10-08, 19:55
heh, I doubt any Jews will enjoy that anyway.
I'm Jewish. Get over your self-righteousness, and start realizing that everything is not out to offend you.
Unnilhexium
2004-10-08, 21:16
Anyway...Will there be any group subbing Zipang?
:confused:
There is a american movie called Final Countdown, where USS Nimitz is transported to 1941, just before japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, so why can't there be a series about modern japanese warship transported to 1942?
C'mon, how often we see a political anime, I like most of the series here, but Zipang is different kind of series so it would be shame if it is subbed, or licensed (which is unlikely, me thinks).
Anyway I will just watch raw...
Ookla The Mok
2004-10-09, 00:27
It would be a shame if it was subbed? So elitist...
I loved the movie The Final Countdown, and I would be very happy to see a sub of Zipang.
Yeah, like I said, I have a bias against Studio DEEN :P Either their animation is just bleah (at the best, excluding the RK OVA, I think it's only "above average" compared to studios like Bones) or.... they always take projects that are underfunded o_O I really don't know, but I just... don't... like their animation :P Of course, they are an old studio, they might have actually a lot of potential that I'm ignoring because of my biasness.
Doesn't stop me from appreciating other parts of the series though (like VoH). Seeing this debate going on about it makes me more interested to watch the series. If it's really a serious well-written account which takes a lot of things into consideration (like the real implications of throwing in something from the future), then I might watch it...
And regarding the whole debate about Zipang, ... Ultimately aren't we making a big assumption about the writer's intent? And even if they have that particular intent, doesn't mean that everyone must agree with you and if they don't they're evil and their works are not worth watching. Sometimes a show with even a slant you hate very much can be very worth watching and useful: it helps you understand their logic, the way they feel and their opinions and such, even if you don't agree with them.
Also, I guess this is my personal bias coming in again, but I always thought it was a bit silly for people to get so offended over media that they'd complain so angrily about it. I mean, okay, you get really bad stuff out there that is pretty nasty to certain parties, but even though you get offended, ultimately (well, this is how I believe) it's because you want to be offended... Other people provide the circumstances but you are the one that makes the choice and learns to accept that other people actually think differently and let go or otherwise...
Bah. I will shut up about it from now on before I shoot myself in the foot, hand and mouth. (HFM!) It's very interesting, though... Gee, you guys are doing excellent promotion of the series :p
dreamless
2004-10-09, 01:21
Hm, LordBrian is right. Sounds like someone has either an enormous chip on their shoulder or is way too noble for their own good. It's fiction, not a revisionist history. From what I heard, Zipang is full of what one person who read the manga described as "pacifistic whining". Hardly gung-ho revisionist stuff. Seriously, just put the past behind and leave it in the past. My mother is indonesian, and was born at the tail end of the japanese occupation of Indonesia. My grandfather was JAILED for 6 months by the japanese, and you don't hear me complaining about how evil Zipang is. Not trying to fan any flames here, but how do you think the Germans feel when they watch something like "Saving Private Ryan"? Or when the japanese watch something like "Pearl Harbor" or "Tora! Tora! Tora!"? I doubt they get that worked up over it...and both of those are less works of fiction than Zipang is.
When Leiji Matsumoto penned "The Cockpit" and then turned it into an OVA, did anyone line up and decry it as revisionist, portraying the "Bad guys" as "good"? 1 of the stories was about a luftwaffe pilot. EVIL NAZIS! How can this be? An outrage I say! The answer to that is "no", because everyone realizes that not everyone on the other side of a war is a bad guy, and its all history....in the past.
Out of all the anime this fall, Zipang aroused my interest the most. Just getting my hands on the raw today... the first ep. was stunning, i thought. Well animated, tons of detail, GREAT music. Nice OP, too. First ep. was very slow, but having read a tad of the manga, I can see this is going to be quite nice. Someone is bound to pick this up and do it.
well, I don't think it's exactly "pacifist whining" when the character becomes a "pacifist" after he knows his side can't win the war. Yes they are trying to stop the war, but only because they know they'll definitely lose if they continue to fight it. That's not what I'd call "pacifist". You can try read the manga to decide for yourself.
Of course everyone has his/her own limit on what's "fiction" and what's over the line, I'm somewhat fine with Silent Service (albeit the later development of a japanese sub claiming itself to be the incarnation of Justice and go on to defeat US and Russia now looks more and more like some online fan-fic stuff and made me lose interest in it), while Zipang is going over the line from volume 8, when it's becoming more and more clear there's nothing "pacifist" about it and it becomes more and more close to militarism and right wing nationalism. It's not a revisionist history in itself, but it's definitely supporting the "ideas" behind the history revisionism (like Japan was wrong to start the war because they couldn't win, because they have evaluated the situation wrongly, not because it's wrong to invade other people itself).
I'm Jewish. Get over your self-righteousness, and start realizing that everything is not out to offend you
the fact remains that sometimes a fiction will become something more than "just a fiction", you can't write a "fiction" of planning to assassinate the US President, you'll get jailed, you can't scream fire in a cinema and later say it's just a "fiction". There are "fictions" meant to be not just a fiction, like those Japanese animations produced back in WW2 period as war time propaganda. I never said everything is out there to offend me, but when something becomes offensive, I'll say it's offensive. I've read the manga myself and found it quite offensive later on and that's what I'm gonna say here. If you've read the manga too and think it's just a plain fiction, without any militarism and right wing nationalism stuff then you can say your reasons and we can debate on it.
So you are jewish, but I don't know if there's any Neo Nazi propaganda stuff out there that you feel offended or not, I guess it's hard to continue in this direction, only that I doubt any Neo Nazi propaganda stuff will be accepted well by people, despite how well they are written. And if you haven't read the manga, I'd say you should stop your assumption and arrogance saying stuffs like "because some of us can enjoy fiction for what it's meant to be" when you have no idea what exactly "it's mean to be". The point is, for me Zipang has crossed the line to militarism and right wing nationalism. Anyone else who has read the manga and feel otherwise can voice their opinions here and maybe then a proper discussion can start.
There is a american movie called Final Countdown, where USS Nimitz is transported to 1941, just before japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, so why can't there be a series about modern japanese warship transported to 1942?
Because it supports the wrong side and wrong idea. No one tries to argue that Hilter is not wrong to start the war and massacre Jews (well except maybe some Neo Nazi and Jew haters). Some Japanese try to argue that there's nothing right or wrong in a war so the Japanese troops was not wrong in invading others in itelf (it's wrong because they cannot win). I can bear with the militarism and nationalism in Silent Service because it's set in a fictional setting, but when Zipang adds real history into it and try to convey the wrong ideas, that's where it becomes unbearable for me. Will a movie trying to say that "Hitler is not wrong to start the war and massacre Jews because there's nothing right or wrong in a war" be allowed to show to public? I doubt it.
OH. MY. GOD.
Whoopdeedoo, they "fight" for the japanese side.
DING DING DING HELLO, they are JAPANESE. Im not going to even start the "what do you expect them to do" argument, because this isn't real, its ANIME for Gods sake. Its not real life. This is ridiculous. Some people just HAVE to be offended and crusade for the side of Righteousness on the internet. WHITE KNIGHT syndrome, and boy, you've got it. ITS A FREAKING manga, its pictures on a page, and its moving lines on a tv screen with some color. Get over yourself! It's an interesting "what if".
Do you get offended when you watch war movies? Do you get offended when a story challenges your notion that a historical "enemy" may have been just as human as you? Do stories that paint Japanese/German soldiers in anything OTHER than a negative light get your blood boiling because, after all, its putting the ideals of what they are fighting for on a pedestal, and those ideas were OMGWTFBBQ EVIL?
Sheesh.
"the fact remains that sometimes a fiction will become something more than "just a fiction", you can't write a "fiction" of planning to assassinate the US President"
BS. That's the premise of countless works of fiction and movies.
I wonder if the author of Zipang is merely trying to brainwash the youth of japan into thinking that Japan is a great Warrior Military State that is destined to Rule the Pacific, and that WWII wasn't their fault because, after all, they are predestined to rule everything in the expanse of the pacific from mainland China the West Coast of the USA! Right-Wing propoganda! My goodness.
----sarcasm-----
WWII movies offend me. They depict the United States as the great hero, when it was clearly the sacrifices of the Brits, Russians, French and Dutch Resisitances, Canadians, Australians, what was left of the Polish army, etc. etc. that contributed to the allied victory. Its just shameful. What a bunch of revisionist hooey. Vietnam War movies offend me as well. They glorify american military forces when the reality was they were shooting up villages for fun. Shameful. Even though its NOT REAL, ITS MADE UP, A WORK OF FICTION!!
Come on now, everyone loosen up. Its just a stupid story.
LordBrian
2004-10-09, 02:02
Tips for debate: bogus and irrelevant points do not help you win your arguments.
I think you're missing the whole point to the discussion. There will always be things written that you don't agree with. That does not mean that they are meritless; that does not mean they should not have been written, should be censored, should be ignored. If you choose to take offense at a written work, that is your business. If you want to decry it as militant, as extreme right-wing, as too nationalist, in order to promote your own agenda, that is your business.
If you want to call something like Zipang anything even resembling "revisionist history," I suggest you look up the term and learn something. You may even discover why you sound uneducated.
You may also want to look up the term "fiction" and try to use it in the proper context. We are discussing it in the sense of literary fiction, not in the sense of lying to incite a riot. There is a distinction between writing a controversial story and yelling "FIRE" in a movie theater. That distinction is so large that I feel more dumb for even addressing the point.
I don't think we've ever been discussing the finer points of the Zipang story, so I don't really see the need to read the whole manga. The discussion, as it stands, is about why you feel Zipang tries to convey the "wrong ideas."
Think about that statement for a second.
Now, explain to me why your ideas are the right ones.
Nice job double teaming the guy. I guess this debate is over whether or not zipang should be watched or even made. I just watched the raw today and it seems interesting, but it definitely has the potential to be dangerous. Freedom of speech in this context is fine, provided you have an accurate depiction of REAL history before hand. How you were brought up, the environment you are in might lead you to think this is kind of thing is no big deal. What about in a country where textbooks still don't fess up to reality?
dreamless
2004-10-09, 03:02
I don't think we've ever been discussing the finer points of the Zipang story, so I don't really see the need to read the whole manga. The discussion, as it stands, is about why you feel Zipang tries to convey the "wrong ideas."
Think about that statement for a second.
Now, explain to me why your ideas are the right ones.
I think I already posted why I think it has conveyed the wrong ideas. Do you have any doubts that what Hitler has done may not be wrong? Do you have any doubts that massacring Jews may not be wrong? Invading other countries and massacring countless civilians are wrong, there shouldn't be any doubts about that. To say that it is wrong to start a war and massacre civilians because you have evaluated the situation wrongly and can't win the war, not because invading others and massacring civilians are wrong in themselves, this is definitely the wrong idea. If you think otherwise, then please state your reasons. Do you think it's the right idea that the Japanese were not wrong to invade others and massacre civilians in WW2, they were just making a mistake of starting a war they couldn't win? And I think this is exactly the idea that the current neo-history revisionism tries to brainwash their youths with, to make them think that their country has not done any really dishonorable thing in the WW2.
If you want to call something like Zipang anything even resembling "revisionist history," I suggest you look up the term and learn something. You may even discover why you sound uneducated.
It is not revisionist history in itself, but it is supporting the ideas which are behind the neo-history revisionism in Japan.
If you want to decry it as militant, as extreme right-wing, as too nationalist, in order to promote your own agenda, that is your business.
have it occured to you that I may not be decrying it as militant, as extreme right-wing, as too nationalist, in order to promote my own agenda, but rather because that is what it really is?
I wonder if the author of Zipang is merely trying to brainwash the youth of japan into thinking that Japan is a great Warrior Military State that is destined to Rule the Pacific, and that WWII wasn't their fault because, after all, they are predestined to rule everything in the expanse of the pacific from mainland China the West Coast of the USA!
I think you may actually get this right. If you have read Kawaguchi Kaiji's works, he obviously think that way. He's quite a nationalist and militarist.
Do you get offended when a story challenges your notion that a historical "enemy" may have been just as human as you? Do stories that paint Japanese/German soldiers in anything OTHER than a negative light get your blood boiling because, after all, its putting the ideals of what they are fighting for on a pedestal, and those ideas were OMGWTFBBQ EVIL?
Well, if it's just about some isolated soldiers or civilians, ie. Grave of Fireflies, I have no problem about it. But this is a POLITICAL manga! It's not just about some soldiers fighting in wars about their ideals! It's already about they meet up with the Japanese ministers to discuss about strategical and political plans for Japan in WW2! That's definitely different from some Vietnam Wars or WW2 movies. This is way more POLITICAL than those works. That's why I have no problem reading the manga when all they do is fight off threat despite what they have done benefit the Japanese side. It's about the protagonist going to the minister to say "umm, based on future information, there will be oil field discovered in this part of China, so we should take it over and drill for oil now, for the future of a happy, peaceful, independent Japan" kind of stuff that's crossing the line here.
Also, I guess this is my personal bias coming in again, but I always thought it was a bit silly for people to get so offended over media that they'd complain so angrily about it. I mean, okay, you get really bad stuff out there that is pretty nasty to certain parties, but even though you get offended, ultimately (well, this is how I believe) it's because you want to be offended... Other people provide the circumstances but you are the one that makes the choice and learns to accept that other people actually think differently and let go or otherwise...
It is a good point, but I'm not actually complaining about it. There's no point for me to complain about a piece of work from some japanese militarist and nationalist. What I'm saying is that I don't want more people getting misleaded by some wrong ideas conveyed through the work. From a previous debate on Zipang in another thread, it seems to me that a lot of people don't quite know what really happened in WW2 Asia, and if Zipang becomes popular that situation could only be worsened. That's why I recommend something like Dragon -RON- , if you are interested in WW2 Asia, then first you should get a more balanced and realistic view on the situation instead of going for some japanese militarist and nationalistic stuff.
LordBrian
2004-10-09, 04:00
Invading other countries and massacring countless civilians are wrong, there shouldn't be any doubts about that. To say that it is wrong to start a war and massacre civilians because you have evaluated the situation wrongly and can't win the war, not because invading others and massacring civilians are wrong in themselves, this is definitely the wrong idea. If you think otherwise, then please state your reasons.
Since you missed it the first time, I'll repeat: bogus and irrelevant points do not help you win your arguments. If you don't understand what I mean, then simply stop talking about Hitler.
To address the last sentence in the above quote: in the context of a literary work, I do indeed think otherwise. In the context of a literary work, I think anything is fair game. I think the problem here is that you are taking this series far too seriously. Yes, nearly everything with a political slant will be propaganda to one extent or another, but seriously, is the author of the manga trying to convince people to go off and slaughter innocent civilians, or is he using the idea as a tool to drive the story along?
My reasoning for saying that, again, in the context of a literary work it is okay to advocate massacres is because it can create for interesting scenarios. George Orwell wrote about an all-too-realistic future where our every move is watched by the government -- he was not advocating for Big Brother to be implemented. Ray Bradbury wrote about censoring inflammatory books -- he was not advocating that practice (though you might have an alternate opinion on what books should or should not be allowed to exist). This person (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nematoddity/133711.html) created a perverted story about the death-torture of a couple and their neighbors -- I'm almost positive they wouldn't ask anyone to do something like this in real life.
But you know what? That Sims thing is still freakin hilarious, even though it does deal with senseless violence. It doesn't try to work on a grander scale like Zipang, and it doesn't offer any what-if questions about history, but the basic concept is the same.
I am not debating real life concepts of right and wrong, a point you seem to miss every time I reply. I will not argue on a moral level about the decisions that people made back then, or decisions that they make now. I will argue that the decisions made by a bunch of people who travelled back in time in a battleship may not be the authoritative source you want to use when discussing real life issues, though.
And again, I don't care if the story is militant, extreme rightist, etc. It has every right to be. If your agenda is to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching the show, that is something I find worth taking issue with. If you just want to inform people that they should enjoy the show for what it is, but to keep in mind that it may have an alternate message that you disagree with, then fine. Say that. But that is a far cry from the offense you seem to be taking.
Well, if it's just about some isolated soldiers or civilians, ie. Grave of Fireflies, I have no problem about it. But this is a POLITICAL manga! It's not just about some soldiers fighting in wars about their ideals! It's already about they meet up with the Japanese ministers to discuss about strategical and political plans for Japan in WW2!
It's because of statements like this that I can't really take you seriously. I ask you, so what? If you're worried that someone might get some ideas and travel back in time and, I dunno, talk to the Japanese ministers about where to drill for oil or whatever, I can put your fears to rest: it's not happening. If you're worried about something else happening, I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.
dreamless
2004-10-09, 04:56
Yes, nearly everything with a political slant will be propaganda to one extent or another, but seriously, is the author of the manga trying to convince people to go off and slaughter innocent civilians, or is he using the idea as a tool to drive the story along?
I can assure you that the author of the manga is not just using the idea as a tool drive the story along, it's the central theme of the manga! It's the clearly the main idea the author tries to pass through to its readers. That we were not wrong in WW2 invading and killing people, we were wrong in starting a war we can't win. Of course whether you believe me or not, it's for you to decide. But this has a LOT of things to do with the manga itself here, if you don't read the manga, and you don't believe me, and you continue to think that those are just plot devices, tools to drive the story along, while the main theme is something else (obviously you can't possibly know what "something else" is the manga's main theme because you haven't read the manga) in your own fiction, then there's no way to continue the discussion in any logical way.
I can only see two ways for this discussion to continue,
1. you believe me that the main theme is a militaristic and nationalistic one.
2. you go and read the Zipang manga and some WW2 history records and probably read the Dragon -RON- manga, to see for yourself, to think for yourself what Zipang's main theme is. And then if you think differently from me, we can have a better debate on this matter.
It's because of statements like this that I can't really take you seriously. I ask you, so what? If you're worried that someone might get some ideas and travel back in time and, I dunno, talk to the Japanese ministers about where to drill for oil or whatever, I can put your fears to rest: it's not happening. If you're worried about something else happening, I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.
As I said above. It's not a plot device. I have nothing against using massacres or whatever as tools to drive story along, but when it's this idea that's the main theme of the manga, it's crossing the line. It's promoting the idea that it's okay for Japan to invade others, massacre their people, steal their resources, enslave their people, as long as it benefits Japan and that Japan can get away with it without suffering a shameful defeat, all for a prosperous, glorious, happy and peaceful Zipang. Yes this is definitely the main theme, this is not some tool to drive the plot along.
Also it's something different to base the setting on a fictional future, from basing the setting on real history. We should take history seriously, and as Vespre pointed out, it might be okay if you have enough knowledge of the REAL history, but it's very dangerous if you don't and then watch some misleading stuff and ideas. Zipang, even aside its militaristic and nationalistic main theme, also has a very biased and limited and sometimes downright incorrect view on the WW2 Asia. So even if you think you will not be influenced by its militaristic and nationalistic main theme, it also doesn't give you much info on what really happened in WW2, or just a very one-sided view with some misleading and/or incorrect info.
Hmm... maybe it could be said somewhat similar to Ramuiro Senkitan. Ramuiro Senkitan is also set in real history, the Japan-Russia war, and it painted both the Japanese and Russian side with good colors, like they are knight-like and samurai-like in the war, ignoring the fact that they are fighting the war in a third country and killing countless civilians of that country. In the end it basically says that both Japan and Russia are not wrong, they both have patriotic people who wish for a strong Japan/Russia, they are just having conflicting dreams, they are both fighting for their dreams, for the better living of the Japanese/Russians... but what about you invading another country and killing civilians of that country? You are trying to make your own country strong by massacring people and stealing land and resources from others! It's already a bit quite annoying for Ramuiro Senkitan, even it has this kind of idea only as an underlying background, but it's 1000 times worse in Zipang, when it straight promotes this kind of idea directly as its central theme! That they should steal other countries' land and resources and enslave people to work for them in order to prevent Japan from losing the war, to reach a "peace without shameful defeat" with US and to build the happy and strong Zipang. And I guess it should be quite obvious that's the main theme of the manga when the title Zipang is what the protagonist call this "ideal Japan" of his in the manga :rolleyes:
And again, I don't care if the story is militant, extreme rightist, etc. It has every right to be. If your agenda is to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching the show, that is something I find worth taking issue with. If you just want to inform people that they should enjoy the show for what it is, but to keep in mind that it may have an alternate message that you disagree with, then fine. Say that. But that is a far cry from the offense you seem to be taking.
Hmm... not only I didn't try to dissuade people from reading the manga or watching the show... currently it seems I'm actually trying to persuade you to read the manga now :heh: I'm trying to say that Zipang, although technically is a good manga, it has a very dangerous (and IMO downright wrong) main theme and misleading/incorrect stuff inside. so much so that I stopped reading the manga even though I admit it is technically quite good. And I recommend Dragon -RON- to everyone. So if you decide that you don't want to watch Zipang, fine by me, but if you decide you want to watch Zipang, keep in mind it may not be what you expect from a standard "war ship travel back in time" show, or even a standard war-related show at that. It has strong political bias, strong nationalistic and militaristic influence, a very dangerous main theme, and a lot of limited/misleading/incorrect one-sided view and information.
Er... just to clarify, not really making a point (actually, we ought to go and create a Zipang thread for this... anybody?)...
So you mean Zipang so blatantly promoting one side of the story that it's almost misleading in the sense that it is (if I get it correctly) similar to, for example, hero shows where the main guy fights wars and kills a lot of other things and is portrayed as good, there's happy music playing when he wins a battle because it's a good thing etc. etc. without even giving the slightest hint that there is another side to all of this? Where you're supposed to cheer when he's just shot the leader of the baddies? (no information, of course, is given on the baddies. They're just evil.) Or when you have uber-cool mech fights where they just slash down enemies like mad and it's considered a good thing and the whole bridge cheers and so on but there is nothing about the enemy at all? (Maybe like the first part of SEED? No wait, no.)
In other words, blatantly portraying something that is "obviously wrong" as perfectly fine and acceptable - heck, without even considering that there is another side to it, that it is as normal as eating or sleeping and does not have any debatable aspects?
And you fear that when people watch it as an anime, without identifying and knowing it is, according to you, propaganda and therefore not having a clear mindset before watching it, they will be mislead.
For example (just as an example, I'm trying to clarify) Maoist propaganda at that time genuinely influenced a lot of people as they didn't realise it was propaganda, but now when we look at such objects of propaganda, we already know it is propaganda and understand the motive behind it and therefore do not get influenced by it...
You believe that the author's agenda is not subtly placed as something to think about but is rather an assumed premise sort of thing, that it is stuck firmly in there without room for any other sort of thinking?
Is that what you are trying to say?
(Also, do they have Dragon -RON- or Zipang manga in Singapore? I think you know, right? If I'm not wrong you're from Singapore, if not Malaysia, based on the content of some of yoru posts...)
dreamless
2004-10-09, 05:28
^ yup, this is what Zipang is IMO, indeed somewhat like Maoist propaganda... actually from what I know some Japanese youths think Kawaguchi Kaiji's works very "hotblood", very "heroic", very "patriotic". It may not be really as aggressive as Maoist propaganda, but it's more subtle and the very good story-telling skill could potentially make it even more dangerous to people who do not realize its true content. It's not as ridiculous as happy music or things, but much more serious and subtle. And the most dangerous part is, if I myelf do not have a better knowledge of what really happened back in WW2, I may well agree with the ideas that the manga tries to convey from the limited information given in the story told by the manga.
Actually the main idea is promoted quite subtly and it seems it leaves some room (or maybe even a lot of room) for thinking, but during the course of the manga it is subtly reinforced that the idea held by the protagonist is correct, the killing of other countries' people and stealing of resouces and land are necessary, they are working for a better dream that everyone can live happily. The idea is very skilfully conveyed to the reader. Actually that WAS supposedly the idea behind Japan's invasion of other countries during the REAL WW2, that they can make everyone live happily. So you now should understand how close this manga's main theme is with the Japanese militarism back in WW2.
For Dragon -RON- and Zipang, I don't know if it's released in Singapore, but Zipang is published in Chinese as 次元舰队 , and Dragon -RON- is published in Chinese as 龙 by 村上纪香 (Murakami Motoka). I got them online :p
I'm surprised they even did a Chinese version of it. I asked as I am highly doubtful they'd publish any sort of Japanese WW2 manga in Singapore of a similar nature (i.e. not GOTF like)...
Now, all I need is... um... direction to the appropriate... whereabouts, yes.
I'm now seriously regreting posting initially yesterday... Although, I suspect that this debate would have happened at some point regardless.
There is a fine line between patriotism and nationalism, IMHO - one that is often blurred. I really don't see harm in a manga (and now an anime) that presents an one-sided story. It's no different than any other forms of entertainment that is out there - not to mention some of the more sensationalistic news articles that I've seen.
I still remember reading (and being Chinese, cringing at) the articles describing the behavior of some of the Chinese football audience a few weeks ago during the Asian Cup... It was written about in CNN, good grief.
Anyway... My biggest concern isn't with entertainment - although if education goes belly-up, that will change - but rather with how the history books present the events. A fair and impartial description would be the best, but I would settle for one that is reasonably descriptive. If the manga and anime get people talking about what had happened 60 odd years ago and keep alive the lessons learned, I'm happy.
People being people... Who knows what will happen? Revisionists exist everywhere, it seems. I'm now reading, with interest, the stories about Koguryo and its founding.
Eh, what is needed for these posts to be moved into a "Zipang" thread? Does one need to be created first, or can the mods just split them off manually?
I *think* you need to create one and then the mods split off the posts. OR perhaps one of the posts can be made into a thread. Whatever it is, I think that's a good course of action to take as it'd be more appropriate for the discussion, and also, why do we have Fall 2004 Series list, now that all the titles are coming out...
dreamless
2004-10-09, 07:30
I guess it still helps for fansub groups to see which titles are not taken yet and which are already over-subbed, and helps them make decisions on which title they want to take.
Oh good lord. So OK, lets assume that Zipang IS Right-Wing, etc. etc.
What does this matter? THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you.
Oh no, so they meet with leaders and strategize!!! EVIL!!!! In the Zipanga manga, are the characters portrayed:
1) Massacring thousands of innocent Chinese;
2) Massacring thousands of Koreans;
3) Committing Unspeakable atrocities in Nanking;
4) Brutally murdering American and Phillipino troops during the Baatan March?
....and done so in a Positive, happy light? If so, THEN i might see where you have a problem.
Otherwise, you are taking issue that this work doesnt portray the japanese as the RATS you think they were, and are donning your Gleaming White armor, grabbing a lance, and hopping on the steed of INTERNET RIGHTEOUSNESS. Why is this necessary? Why can't this just be a "what if" work of fiction? Why does everything have to have some kind of ulterior motive or evil intent? I guess some people feel the need to always have a "purpose" like this.
dreamless
2004-10-09, 11:30
Oh good lord. So OK, lets assume that Zipang IS Right-Wing, etc. etc.
What does this matter? THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you.
Oh no, so they meet with leaders and strategize!!! EVIL!!!! In the Zipanga manga, are the characters portrayed:
1) Massacring thousands of innocent Chinese;
2) Massacring thousands of Koreans;
3) Committing Unspeakable atrocities in Nanking;
4) Brutally murdering American and Phillipino troops during the Baatan March?
....and done so in a Positive, happy light? If so, THEN i might see where you have a problem.
Otherwise, you are taking issue that this work doesnt portray the japanese as the RATS you think they were, and are donning your Gleaming White armor, grabbing a lance, and hopping on the steed of INTERNET RIGHTEOUSNESS. Why is this necessary? Why can't this just be a "what if" work of fiction? Why does everything have to have some kind of ulterior motive or evil intent? I guess some people feel the need to always have a "purpose" like this.
It has the japanese stealing lands and resources of other countries in a "positive light" as you put it. whether it's cartoon, novel, movie, etc. etc. it doesn't matter. The author clearly shows that the main theme of the manga to be that the japanese aren't wrong in invading others and killing people, but are wrong in not evaluating the situation orrectly, in fighting a war that cannot be won. This idea is not a "what if" fiction. To say that invading others and killing civilians are not wrong in themselves is no longer a "what if" fiction. I have no problem with Zipang's "what if" fiction parts.
And I don't like japanese promoting militarism and nationalism, whether it's in manga, novel, cartoon, tv drama, movie, or whatever form of media. I'm not saying anything about internet righteousness, you need to read my posts again. I said I don't like it, I said I think it crossed the line for me, I said I stopped reading the manga. It's you who seem to have some weird problems about me saying my dislike of the manga, and I gave the reason why I dislike it. Seriously, do you like the manga? have you even read it? If no, then what's your stance? People can't go to an internet forum for anime and manga discussions and voice their dislike of a certain anime/manga? It seems you are the one who's just imagining things about a manga you've never read and imagining me of having some kind of ulterior motive/agenda/whatever in your own little fiction and you are trying to play the knight here? Or what?
There are plenty of people not liking plenty of anime/manga for plenty of different reasons. Heck, plenty of movies got censored because of racist and/or sexist content. I'm pretty sure if you write a fictional story strongly supporting racism and/or sexism and post it here, a lot of people will feel offended and the post will get modded. So what's wrong by feeling offended by some strong militarism/nationalism stuff in a manga/anime? Unless if you yourself is a japanese militarism/nationalism supporter of course :rolleyes:
Oh, and I thought people in an anime forum should do better than some "THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you" kind of argument. Anime is no less of a form of media/art/entertainment than movies, novels, tv-drama, etc. etc. I hope you mean "This is a work of fiction like a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc.", not "THIS IS A CARTOON". You should take an anime as seriously as you take a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc. Else I don't think you are worth debating with.
LordBrian
2004-10-09, 11:43
Even if those things ARE done in a positive, happy light, I still don't have a problem with it. That's the point I've been trying to get across, my difference in philosophy towards the written word.
I can assure you that the author of the manga is not just using the idea as a tool drive the story along, it's the central theme of the manga! It's the clearly the main idea the author tries to pass through to its readers. That we were not wrong in WW2 invading and killing people, we were wrong in starting a war we can't win. Of course whether you believe me or not, it's for you to decide. But this has a LOT of things to do with the manga itself here, if you don't read the manga, and you don't believe me, and you continue to think that those are just plot devices, tools to drive the story along, while the main theme is something else (obviously you can't possibly know what "something else" is the manga's main theme because you haven't read the manga) in your own fiction, then there's no way to continue the discussion in any logical way.
Incorrect. You've done an excellent job at describing the manga and its tones, and I believe you that the author probably is using manga as his medium for spreading his opinions, worldviews, whatever. For the point that I am trying to argue, I don't need to know or argue the details of the manga.
My point is that you are overly concerned that this particular manga is so unbiased and inflammatory. If people are really as affected by the story as you somehow think they will be, that is not a problem with the manga; that is a problem with the particular society you are concerned with. There is no excuse for prohibiting certain kinds of thoughts to be published, regardless of how insane or wrong you may think them to be. It is when people start taking those ideas to heart that you have a problem, but it is my opinion that people will not do that from this story -- it is your opinion, apparently, that they will, and that is where we disagree. I see nothing further to be said on the subject.
dreamless
2004-10-09, 11:59
okay, please answer this, if a movie with strong racism theme is made, is it wrong for people to feel offended by it and criticize the movie for its racism theme? And is it wrong for cinemas refusing showing this racist movie?
And if I feel offended by a manga filled with nationalism/militarism, is there anything wrong about that? The main point is not whether I feel people will take this to heart or not. The main point is that I think the nationalism/militarism contained in this manga is so bad that I think people should stay away from it. It's pretty normal to see people post things like "nah, this anime is bad, don't watch it" kind of posts right? What I'm trying to say is about the same. I'm saying that Zipang contains so much nationalism/militarism stuff that I dislike those stuff so much. And I like the Dragon -RON- manga a lot. So I recommend the Draong -RON- manga and discourage people from Zipang. It's like, basically, if you feel one manga is good and the other is bad then you'll tell your friends to get the good one and stay from the bad one. If there's a racist movie, I'll tell people to stay away from that movie. If there's a japanese militarist/nationalist anime, I'll tell people to stay away from that anime. Simple?
PS: unbiased? Zipang is super biased if you ask me! :uhoh:
Oh, about the Sims story, it's different, it's completely fictional. I can tolerate completely fictional works, albeit I won't like it if it goes over the top to complete ridiculousness (for example the later part of Silent Service).
Okay, now I think more about it, I guess trying to be unbiased and have a somewhat balanced view of something and give credit where it's due is not the best way to express an opinion, then let's start all over and try this :
I think Zipang worths as much as a piece of racism garbage, neo-Nazi ads, those "revised" Japanese history books, some Japanese militarism/nationalism propaganda (which it is), so if you want to read/watch it, I can't stop you, but if you ask my opinion, I'd say better stay away from it and let it rot in the lowest level of hell.
So does it sound better after I rephrase it this way? :rolleyes:
One "Politics and Zipang (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=333182#post333182)" thread has been made, everyone.
ShikaShika
2004-10-10, 06:29
Now I really want someone to sub it, so I can make up my own mind about it. :)
After reading dreamless's post, I have now learned that it is okay to be biased as long as you don't put your thoughts into publication.
chamelean75
2004-11-07, 19:28
is anyone subbing Gakuen Alice?
is anyone subbing Gakuen Alice?
Go to the first post on the first page of this thread. Click the link to find the answer.
chamelean75
2004-11-07, 20:00
yay, good to know that gakuen alice will be subbed. hmm will anyone be subbing Legend of Duo, according to the who is subbing what website, it has yet to be picked up. The animation in promo pic on the legend of duo site looks really good.
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