School Rumble manga (raw discussion only) [Archive] - Page 7

Swampstorm

2007-02-09, 16:00

Granted; Explanations should or might have came later, but defining anger and how long it lasts depending on what you're angry about is another matter altogether. I find it pretty hard for some people to immediately get shocked and disgusted at what he/she did rashly or almost 'instinctively' lashing out, especially when under the impression that what she thought she had done was right.
I don't have a problem with this being resolved later, so long as it gets resolved. Until then, though, Yakumo's actions look pretty terrible. Historically, though, Yakumo has had a long history of being completely unaccountable for her outbursts of rage. It really is high time that she owns up.

There. You said it. She thought she was fully justified, so why should she apologize or explain when she thought she's correct?
That's the problem here. If she thinks she's correct, she's just going to continue.

In a way, you can call her 'selfish' in that she has little idea of who Tenma really likes but prefers her sister to be in a relationship with a 'man she believes can be trusted to take care of her sister'. It's selfish, but hey, it's human too.
Actually, from Ch.206, it looks as though her interest in setting up Tenma with Harima has a lot to do with her obsession with Harima remaining the way he always is, forever.

I don't believe Flag would be in too much trouble, though, since it seems to have a trend of tiding over the troubles plaguing it somehow.
Classically, yes. But if I knew that for sure, the outcome of this story would be trivial, wouldn't it? :p

And that is one thing I'm irked about. Considering the fact here that she had just featured in this madness, I really hope we get to see how she handles her own mistakes this time round.
I would, too. Because if she doesn't, she's either going to be a plot device to set up Tenma and Harima, or an antagonist for a Flag storyline.

I don't get the Lala scenario...
From what we've seen, Lala is bigger and more likely to hit back if she's attacked. Same thing with the dog situation - Yakumo has a fear of dogs. People who hit out do so when they expect to get the better of the confrontation. Nobody starts a fight when they expect to lose.

Put some emoticons into your anger, man!
Emoticons tend to lighten a post up, no matter how you choose them.

Offended? Sorry about that. Didn't think that would get on your nerves. I was talking about some Flaggers in general, because I think at least you would come up with sufficient reasoning on your part. I may be a fan of Yakumo, but when have I ever said her action was absolutely correct, that Eri completely deserved the slap?
Ad homs aren't really offensive, they're just really bad practice, from a logical standpoint. They don't actually prove anything, and they're only subversive if the reader/listener doesn't catch on to the deception.

I do hope, though, eventually Yakumo calms down and gets about doing something about this farce by her own NON-VIOLENT methods as well.
Again, that would redeem herself, which I would like to see happen as well. For the time being, though, her character is in the gutter.

Isn't this already happening? To elaborate further, I need to mention racism and politics, so I will stop here.
You mean the people who start large scale aggressive acts are leaving the rest of us alone? Hardly. The problem that I have with wars is that the psychopaths who start them get a lot of innocent people caught in the middle, when most of us would much rather they just go elsewhere and duke it out between themselves.

There's nothing wrong with having people who have unresolved childhood conflicts. All I ask is that they don't redirect their anger towards innocent people who have nothing to do with their personality problems.

The question about this slap is: Did Yakumo really do it only for Tenma, or did she maybe also think about Eri?
Okay, we didn't really get out what she wanted to say, but it probably wasn't something nice. If she was really going to say "I hate you", she would have probably destroyed the relation completely and irreversible. In this cas ethe slap was more some sort of "Think about what you are saying".
Oh, no. Not this again. So many people seem to be versed in the sign language of slaps, lately. Of course you're right. She must have been only thinking about the welfare of her dear friend. Yakumo definitely slapped Eri with all the goodness of her pure, pure heart. :rolleyes:

wontaek

2007-02-09, 16:37

You mean the people who start large scale aggressive acts are leaving the rest of us alone? Hardly. The problem that I have with wars is that the psychopaths who start them get a lot of innocent people caught in the middle, when most of us would much rather they just go elsewhere and duke it out between themselves.

There's nothing wrong with having people who have unresolved childhood conflicts. All I ask is that they don't redirect their anger towards innocent people who have nothing to do with their personality problems.

Segregation?

Swampstorm

2007-02-09, 16:49

Segregation?
Hypocrisy? Let's revisit what you wrote last chapter.

2. If you want to apologize for Eri based on her intention, you should also accept the intent in Yakumo's heart: Avenging what she perceives as grave injustice against her sister. Yakumo knows Eri didn't meet her sister the day before, Tenma may have endangered her life waiting for Eri, and she has heard Eri sounding as if to shift the blame on Tenma without any justifiable reason. If this was real life situation, I would have thought it as another case of rich and powerful person abusing their power and money to belittle others and then shifting any blame and responsibility to the ones they wronged. If you want to judge the characters by their perception and intentions, I would place Yakumo on higher moral ground compared to Eri when she slapped Eri when Eri tried to justify herself. In Asian view, there are some cases where words just won't do.
Emphasis Added

Both you and I know that Eri's wealth had no bearing on that point. So why did you bring it up? Hmm...

Condemning someone with a stereotype just for being rich is just as wrong as condemning them with a stereotype for being poor. Segregation and discrimination based on class is no different from segregation and discrimination based on race, religion, or anything else. How very ironic that you should make that comment just now. :heh:

There's nothing wrong with asking someone to go vent their frustrations elsewhere instead of on you. That's not segregation, that's human nature (ie. If you're violent, people avoid you. It's not just behavior exclusive to humans, but it's even present in other primates as well. Excessively violent young chimps are shunned by their playmates, until they learn socially acceptable behavior). In other words, solve your psychological conflicts without abusing other people. Nobody wants to be your punching bag.

You have no idea how much of your justification of Yakumo's actions this chapter fly in the face of your justification of the slap, last chapter.

redCloudJ7

2007-02-09, 17:02

Excellent chapter. My favorite part is when Tenma and Eri had an in-depth discussion about the problem. How they resolved it and as a result both characters developed significantly. I was so glad that the author didn't avoid the issues/conflicts. It would have been a completely retarded cop out if one character just apologized and the other accepted it and they became friends again.

redCloudJ7

2007-02-09, 18:46

I pray that people like Yakumo consider themselves to be too good for all of us, then, for the good of all humanity. Civil society would do much better without wretched creatures, such as that, inflicting their unresolved childhood conflicts on the rest of us.

Yakumo must be stopped she's a threat to humanity! Sure you aren't taking this too far?

There. You said it. She thought she was fully justified, so why should she apologize or explain when she thought she's correct?

Thats the problem, Yakumo almost always thinks she's justified and correct.

I agree with this.
About Tenma should be blamed or not, actually "blame game" is a freaking hard one to play. Because if indirectly, even Hanai or Mikoto took part in the conflict of Eri and tenma (well, in some way), so i rather blame fate, destiny or KJ for things happen. :D

Theres no need to play the "blame game" when we know the cause of the problem.

Well, if you walk to a guy with 200 pounds in weight, and say :"you are fat" .What you said is a fact, but it is rude in the same time also, don't you think? ;)

Excellent point.

Did I miss something? Since when did she have a dog?

Exactly what I was thinking.

But in real life we would probably act the same as those characters. That's what makes the story interessting.

I agree. I would wait in the snow for hours instead of taking shelter.

wontaek

2007-02-09, 18:47

Hypocrisy? Let's revisit what you wrote last chapter.

Eri used to give off impression that she considers herself to be too good for others, and generally shunned interaction. Deliberate engagement by some people around her helped her open up and be more accessible. I wanted to make a point that if you leave people who do consider themselves to be above others, alone, they will usually come en mass to make our lives miserable.

Both you and I know that Eri's wealth had no bearing on that point. So why did you bring it up? Hmm...

Condemning someone with a stereotype just for being rich is just as wrong as condemning them with a stereotype for being poor. Segregation and discrimination based on class is no different from segregation and discrimination based on race, religion, or anything else. How very ironic that you should make that comment just now. :heh:

Again this is matter of impression, which is different from a person to a person. If Eri really was bent upon doing something bad to Tsukamoto sisters, which I know she wasn't, most likely she would use the considerable wealth and power at her disposal to make things miserable for Tenma and Yakumo. We all know that Eri will never do that, but for a casual bystander of the event, that thought will go across his/her head when, to those who consider the possibility that Eri is more at fault in the beginning, Eri seems to turn the table on Tenma, accusing her of self-inflicted harm in order to darken Eri's name. Although it is without much merit, when you suspect a rich person to be in the wrong, and you see that rich person to say things that seems to blame the person they seemingly wronged, many, who consider themselves to be average or below average in social standings, will be worrying about possibility of abuse of wealth and power. I stress that we know Eri will never do that, but the situation was one where there existed possibility that some will mistake the situation to develope into such abuse. Also consider who are the people that usually benefit from such segregations and discriminations. These situation can make some people feel helpless and traps them into thought that violence is only way they may get even a little bit of justice. This kind of thought pattern can partially be blamed on our genes: According to Richard Dawkins' s book, 'Selfish Gene', one of the most effective social strategy is something called 'tit-for-tat' which mentions that possibility of future retribution is one of key ingredient of stability and cooperation, thus we feel a need to punish, in whatever way available, someone that seems to be doing something worng.

There's nothing wrong with asking someone to go vent their frustrations elsewhere instead of on you. That's not segregation, that's human nature (ie. If you're violent, people avoid you. It's not just behavior exclusive to humans, but it's even present in other primates as well. Excessively violent young chimps are shunned by their playmates, until they learn socially acceptable behavior). In other words, solve your psychological conflicts without abusing other people. Nobody wants to be your punching bag.

You have no idea how much of your justification of Yakumo's actions this chapter fly in the face of your justification of the slap, last chapter.

I believe it was more of anger than frustration which made Yakumo act in such way. I also believe verbal attack can be worse than physical attack, especially if it was a prolonged verbal abuse. Some people takes delight in making other people feel frustrated, and they usually have the means to protect themselves from retributions. What I do know for myself is that my instict( 'id' ) said Eri was saying bad things and good retribution was in order. Of course, we should not be govern by our 'id' but I believe the situation was one where Yakumo's Id could easily overwhelm her Ego and Super Ego. I don't think Yakumo was having psychological conglict in this situation, for we have not been given any indication of this in Ch 211. Eri was not being a faceless, nameless 'punching bag' here as Yakumo had many reasons to halt Eri's speech, although more peaceful intervention would have been better.

You are trying to portray Yakumo in as negative light as possible by writing in the worst possible thought process for her. Most of your statements about Yakumo are your guess based on what limited, and possibly misleading, informations we have. By the way, I don't remember making any justification for Yakumo's action in the latest chapter. All I suggested was that the key dilemma of the series is the relationship involving Harima and Tenma, and the four core characters have much that needs to be worked out by themselves. I believe the dilemma to be intense enough even without Yakumo being involved, such that tons of chapters can be written without mentioning Yakumo, and I don't mind that as I don't support any pairing involving Harima right now. In the last two chapter, Yakumo was physically there when Eri was saying things to Tenma, and she had every right to intervene: it just that Yakumo chose to physically intervene instead of verbal intervention. From what I know, Yakumo did not have any intention of helping Eri in this matter, but sometimes, corporal punishment works, and that slap may help Eri become better person. This situation is not fully resolved yet, but should we not also consider the possibility of mutually good end as the result of this offense?

nadare

2007-02-09, 18:58

From what i understood is that...

The slap isn't for anyone but Tenma. Yakumo didnt slap Eri because she wanted Tenma x Harima. She did it because...

1. Yakumo was worried of what happened to Tenma. She went to Eri's house because she was worried about Tenma. She saw Tenma burried in the snow waiting for Eri.

2. Eri insulted Tenma in front of Yakumo. Tenma didnt know anything about why Eri was suddenly mad at her. Eri is one of Tenma's best friend. It's not surprising she would go this far(Tenma).

If I were Yakumo I would do the same. how could you stand your sister being insulted after waiting for your friend for so long that she almost froze to death?

If you take away Eri's inner thoughts. It would look like Eri is insulting Tenma like there is no tomorrow instead of trying to apologize.

edit:

To whoever said that Yakumo feels justified of slapping Eri.
Don't assume that she feels justified or correct in her actions. When did you ever read that Yakumo feels right in her actions? All we see is Yakumo slapping Eri. Wait for the next chapter before you claim Yakumo feels right about what she did.

redCloudJ7

2007-02-09, 19:13

If I were Yakumo I would do the same. how could you stand your sister being insulted after waiting for your friend for so long that she almost froze to death?

The part about Tenma almost freezing to death is PG. All throughout the manga Tenma has been taking shelter from so called (harsh) weather. Why didn't she just ask to go inside Eri's mansion? Or take some sort of shelter? The entire situation of Tenma being outside in the cold is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

Yakumo should have thrown a snow ball.

nadare

2007-02-09, 19:20

The part about Tenma almost freezing to death is PG. All throughout manga Tenma has been taking shelter from so called (harsh) weather. Why didn't she just ask to go inside Eri's mansion? Or take some sort of shelter? The entire situation of Tenma being outside in the cold is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

Yakumo should have thrown a snow ball.

Chapter 210... You can clearly see Tenma ringing the doorbell. No one came out. She thought Eri was still mad at her.

Looking at the surroundings there is no shelter near by. If she were to look for shelter she would be way far from the mansion for Eri to notice her.

OMGItsTehSARS

2007-02-09, 20:30

Dunno, I find refuting theories with indications based on different theories pretty hilarious imo, especially we only have spoiler text. :D

redCloudJ7

2007-02-09, 22:00

Chapter 210... You can clearly see Tenma ringing the doorbell. No one came out.

Yeah, she rung the door bell...... once. What amazing determination!

Looking at the surroundings there is no shelter near by.

I didn't know School Rumble was available in Braille. Normal version, chapter 210 pg. 370 bottom page. There is a house next to Eri's mansion. There is also a tree near the stairway (not the most effective cover. Better than being covered in snow though). Down the stairway there is a complex of houses.

If she were to look for shelter she would be way far from the mansion for Eri to notice her.

There is a house next to Eri's mansion (next to Eri's mansion ). There is a tree near the stairway. There are houses next to the Eri's neighbors. There is shelter.

Before Tenma left why didn't she call Eri's cell and home phone? Once Tenma finds out Eri's not home she can ask (by phone) to come inside and wait for her to return. Why didn't Tenma just bring her cellphone call Eri's house number ask if Eri is there, If not she asks to come inside?

No, no let me answer that question. The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

But thanks for the PG.

The Small One

2007-02-10, 02:59

In the last two chapter, Yakumo was physically there when Eri was saying things to Tenma, and she had every right to intervene: it just that Yakumo chose to physically intervene instead of verbal intervention.

Actually I think this slap was the only possible way of intervention. Saying just something like "Stop" wouldn't probably have worked in this situation.

The part about Tenma almost freezing to death is PG.
What is "PG"?

Yeah, she rung the door bell...... once. What amazing determination!
Just because we only saw her doing it once, it doesn't mean, that she really only did it a single time.

Before Tenma left why didn't she call Eri's cell and home phone? Once Tenma finds out Eri's not home she can ask (by phone) to come inside and wait for her to return. Why didn't Tenma just bring her cellphone call Eri's house number ask if Eri is there, If not she asks to come inside?

I think we can assume that she did try to call Eri. But guess what: Eri didn't have her phone with her.

No, no let me answer that question. The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

I don't think so.
Actually, I would have done exactly the same in Tenma's situation. If I wanted to make up with someone and assumed that this person is inside the house but still mad, I would also wait in front of the house for a long time.
Okay, I would have stopped a few minutes before freezing to death, but I can understand that someone who is a bit sillier wouldn't stop.

gekko

2007-02-10, 08:30

I think we can assume that she did try to call Eri. But guess what: Eri didn't have her phone with her.
guess what, he also said her home number....reply to the whole sentence, not only the part that's convenient...it would be more logical to call if she's home rather then waiting in the snow. But then again it wouldnt be so tragic

nadare

2007-02-10, 11:20

Yeah, she rung the door bell...... once. What amazing determination!

what the small one said

I didn't know School Rumble was available in Braille. Normal version, chapter 210 pg. 370 bottom page. There is a house next to Eri's mansion. There is also a tree near the stairway (not the most effective cover. Better than being covered in snow though). Down the stairway there is a complex of houses.

There is a house next to Eri's mansion (next to Eri's mansion ). There is a tree near the stairway. There are houses next to the Eri's neighbors. There is shelter.

Even if there is a house. She'll still be standing outside the house. Which makes no difference than waiting for Eri at the front gate. And even if she went to the trees it wont help her freezing to death wont it?

It would be rude for her to even go inside the house(of Eri's neighbor and ask for shelter wouldnt it?

Before Tenma left why didn't she call Eri's cell and home phone? Once Tenma finds out Eri's not home she can ask (by phone) to come inside and wait for her to return. Why didn't Tenma just bring her cellphone call Eri's house number ask if Eri is there, If not she asks to come inside?

No, no let me answer that question. The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

But thanks for the PG.

Eri knew that Tenma would be coming and waiting at her house. In fact she asked the butler if there was someone waiting at the front gate.

The Small One

2007-02-10, 11:47

guess what, he also said her home number....reply to the whole sentence, not only the part that's convenient...it would be more logical to call if she's home rather then waiting in the snow.

Why should she call the home number?
Let's look at the situation: Tenma is waiting at the Gate and rang the bell. She is thinking, that Eri is inside and still mad.
Let's assume that she decided to try calling her instead of ringing, then she probably used the mobile number, and obviously she wouldn't get any response. And since Tenma can't know that Eri doesn't have her phone with her, the only conclusion should be: "She is still mad and won't answer the phone." So why should this be different with the home number?

Besides: Maybe she even did try to call the home number. The butler didn't even answer the door bell...

I don't know what exactly is your problem, but I think Tenma's action are absolutely understandable and not unrealistic.

gekko

2007-02-10, 14:12

nah, if you're that determined/despearte, you would definetly call her home number 1 or 2 times even if she doesnt pick up her celphone. Besides i still don't understand why the butler didn't answer to tenma's ringing. You would aspect a butler to be available 24/24. But hey, it's manga, it is ment to be a little unrealistic. Tenma's action in real life would be imho unrealistic (to the point of freezing yourself near death i mean)

wontaek

2007-02-10, 14:39

Ok. I finally saw Ch. 212. Here are my impression.

1. Eri was thinking only about Tenma. She is not concerned with Yakumo nor the slap. If the recent trend continues, I think Eri will be installed as THE main character of the series.
2. Guessing from the previous trends of mangaka, we will soon have Yakumo and Eri talking quietly. It is likely that they will make each other realize something important.
3. I believe it is safe to say Eri will still try to win Harima's heart, but since Tenma is interested in Karasuma, not Harima, she will not harbor any ill feelings towards Tenma, nor towards Yakumo. I think it would be very good for everyone involved, if Eri tells Tenma about Harima's affection for Tenma. It would be even better and more effective, if Yakumo is present to confirm Harima's interest in Tenma.

risingstar3110

2007-02-10, 18:12

Just read the chapter and feel that my guess was quite close to reality , feel kind of happy :D

Still Jin work really unpredictable ^^

That probably the end of their conflict. However new rival was just appear (however this time the situation may be reversed ,.... maybe...)

I have the feeling that this was THE opportunity you were waiting for just to insult Yakumo...But I'll let it go, since it's understandable all Flaggers and Eri fans already have an outrageously poor impression of her after that slap.
Wa don't include everyone in like that, pretty dangerous you know(e.g me) ::heh:

Sakurax

2007-02-10, 18:27

No. What I was waiting for here was for Yakumo to redeem herself by explaining herself, or by reaching out in some way. I didn't even want to see any sort of retribution - I just wanted to see some, small - no, tiny - hint of remorse for losing her temper. Do you remember the Cultural Festival Play? Yakumo caused all sorts of trouble for Eri - ruining her gift to Harima, ruining the play, humiliating her in front of the school - and she even hit her. However, the incident was resolved because she showed remorse for what she did, by apologizing.

In this scene, Yakumo walks away feeling fully justified in losing control of her temper and giving in to her rage. She's likely going to continue to interfere with Flag and push for Oudou against her sister's will. Of course, that probably doesn't matter, given Eri's tendency to try to sacrifice the things that she cares about to make those around her happy. If someone doesn't step in, Flag's in trouble.

I kind of think Yakumo WAS justified for losing her temper. I mean, from a protective sister's point of view, the things Eri said to Tenma were pretty harsh --especially considering Tenma has been waiting for Eri for an entire night through a snow storm.

wontaek mentioned earlier that it is a violation of social norms in Japanese culture to slap an older person. By walking away without offering any explanation, and without showing any remorse, do you really think that this looks good on her?

Did you think I was angry, last chapter? That was nothing.

Yes, yes I think it does look good on her. It just goes to show that Eri crossed the line when she (seemed) like she was about to say "I hate you" to Tenma, after making Tenma feel like crap without even explaining to her what she did, AND knowing how desperately Tenma wants to apologise.

Consider this, Yakumo has been portrayed as probably an ideal kind of japanese girl. She's beautiful, conservative, humble, thoughtful and caring lalalalalala etc, and this "punishment" coming from Yakumo only seems to show that it is ERI that is in the wrong. For Eri to provoke the normally perfect Yakumo into actually violating these social norms, I'd say this reflects far more badly on Eri.

See, when you're protective, then you say things like "Don't talk like that to my sister!" When you don't say anything, it shows that the only reason for the slap was your own satisfaction - just so that you can vent your rage. She didn't care about defending Tenma - she just indulged herself.

As much as I utterly hate the comparison often made between a callous, self-indulgent girl and a female dog, it really does apply here to Yakumo. My apologies go out to the dog, of course.

Yakumo is desperately in need of any character development at this point. The reason for the current problem is because she just hasn't made any steps towards resolving her inner anger from day 1.

I happen to disagree STRONGLY with that. There are many ways of expressing protectiveness. And to be honest, I think Yakumo slapped Eri not just to PROTECT her sister, but to DEFEND her. Yakumo probably can't be bothered to get into a pointless arguments by throwing words at Eri --and everyone knows Yakumo is a character that always reacts strongly (mostly physically) to anyone who insults her sister. (Remember that hanai incident?)

When you lose control of your temper and you hit someone who doesn't defend themselves, who doesn't hit back, and who's smaller than you - just so that you can vent your rage, then it's pure cowardice. I wonder how willing Yakumo would be to hit Lala? Or I wonder if she'd have the guts to hit Eri if her dog was around?

First of all, if lala ever did anything malicious to Tenma, I think Yakumo would definitely do the same thing. It's already been shown previously that Yakumo is not a pushover, and she can defend herself. And Eri is NOT smaller than Yakumo, she ISN'T defenceless. The reason she didn't defend herself is probably because deep down she knows she's in the wrong in the situation, AND it happened so quickly. PLUS....btw, Eri's dog is a stuffed animal. =.=

The best part of all was that after the slap, Yakumo didn't bother to offer an explanation to Eri, didn't bother to say anything to defend her sister, didn't let Tenma help or say anything to Eri, and walked off without an apology or even the slightest hint of remorse. Real classy.

Why should she show remorse when she was in the right? Besides, in this situation Yakumo is taking control, almost like an older sister rather than the younger one. You'll notice most of the time Yakumo acts more like an older sister to Tenma than a younger one. In asian culture (well stereotypically) when the one in the older role says "let's go home" ...then you're going to go home, no questions asked until AFTER you get home. Why does Yakumo need to explain herself? She's done what she believed she needed to do, why waste time on pointless words?

It's not just because I'm an Eri fan. If Eri did what Yakumo just did, I'd be equally disgusted - no, probably even more so, because I expect so much more from her.

Oh, and please don't start with that ad hom line of reasoning "Oh, the flaggers are naturally upset, because Eri is their favorite character." (unless you want me to point out your bias in defending this sort of morally bankrupt behavior). The behavior is upsetting because it's utterly vile - when done against anyone.

Tenma and Eri's sincerity were never in question. They both acted impeccably.

That's my point. If we don't see any resolution to this from Yakumo, it will be a nasty blemish on her character - she needs to redeem herself. Yakumo fan or not, it's probably in everyone's best interest to see this resolved.

You seem to believe Yakumo's slap was something completely unjustified. Why exactly is it so wrong of her? She's defending her sister from someone who is hurting her. She's defending her sister from an Eri who seems insistant on hurting Tenma even though she KNOWS Tenma doesnt even know whats going on. Tenma's got this child mentality. She feels she's in the wrong, but she doesnt know what it is --being the more mature one, Eri should have explained it to her rather than ignore her and 'punish' Tenma in this covert way of trying to avoid her. It's like punishing a little kid for doing something that he/she didnt even know was wrong --WITHOUT explaining it to them.

I think this reflects very nicely on Yakumo. She can stand up for someone she loves, regardless of who its against. She doesnt care if its a senpai or a kohai insulting her sister --she'll still go right ahead and do what she thinks needs to be done in order to protect Tenma. To me, as a big fan of practically EVERY school rumble character, I think this shows Yakumo as a very very strong individual.

EDIT: ah crap...I just realised this message was two pages ago *dies*. Ok....I wrote too much to delete it, lol, BUT...sorry! My bad...didnt realise we were already past this discussion LOL

risingstar3110

2007-02-10, 18:54

Sakurax, that's why i have been wondering why did you still argue about it when the chapter out pretty much answer a lot of things :D
Haha i make the same mistake a lot of time also.

Btw, everything about Eri is clear now right? What she is saying, or plan to say, what did she REALLY think all those times and such.

Now the problem turned to Yakumo and how she will react after this. I really hope that Yakumo will stay angry a bit longer, not just come and apologise to Eri as Tenma's will. I want the confiction between Eri and Yakumo end after this ( or almost end), when both of them really can open their thoughts to each other.

I know it was not that strange, but it still surprised me, seeing in the end Eri still understand Tenma more than Yakumo in this situation.

PS: Hey Townsocks ^^, thank again

redCloudJ7

2007-02-10, 20:03

What is "PG"?

Pure Garbage.

Just because we only saw her doing it once, it doesn't mean, that she really only did it a single time.

There is no proof that she did it more than once. Assumptions are meaningless.

I think we can assume that she did try to call Eri. But guess what: Eri didn't have her phone with her.

We can assume anything. I can assume a meteor will strike the school killing all the characters. Assumptions and speculations are meaningless.

Why don't you actually READ what I wrote? Instead of reading what YOU want to.

"Before Tenma left why didn't she call Eri's cell and home phone? Once Tenma finds out Eri's not home she can ask (by phone) to come inside and wait for her to return. Why didn't Tenma just bring her cellphone call Eri's house number ask if Eri is there, If not she asks to come inside?"

No, no let me answer that question. The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

I don't think so.

You think. I know, thats the difference.

Actually, I would have done exactly the same in Tenma's situation.

I hope your not serious. If thats really the case I feel sorry for you.

If I wanted to make up with someone and assumed that this person is inside the house but still mad, I would also wait in front of the house for a long time.

Before you go over the person's house wouldn't you call their home phone? You ask if they are there. If they aren't there and someone else answers you ask them where they are or when they will be back. If no one answers you leave a message. Then you call the person's cell phone. If they don't answer you leave a message. You can also call someone else (someone who's close to the person your trying to contact) to find out where the person is or when they will return it's not complicated. I guess common sense isn't so common.

Okay, I would have stopped a few minutes before freezing to death,

If your that close to freezing to death a "few minutes" probably isn't enough to get to safety.

but I can understand that someone who is a bit sillier wouldn't stop.

I cannot understand someone who is silly, not stopping. Someone with serious mental deficiencies I can understand though.

Even if there is a house.

There IS a house (next to Eri's mansion). Multiple actually. Try reading the normal version not the Braille version.

She'll still be standing outside the house. Which makes no difference than waiting for Eri at the front gate.

That's why you don't stand outside the neighbor's house like a fool. You ask to come inside.

And even if she went to the trees it wont help her freezing to death wont it?.

Great point. Then Tenma really shouldn't be outside waiting for Eri should she. She should have left (took shelter or go home) and came back another day. Risking your life to speak to someone immediately when you can do it tomorrow is beyond retarded (Its poor writing). How can you repair a relationship if you (most likely) die?

It would be rude for her to even go inside the house(of Eri's neighbor and ask for shelter wouldnt it?

I can either freeze (possibly to death) or I can (according to you be rude, I don't know where you got that from) and ask Eri's neighbor for shelter. I'll pick the intelligent decision and freeze (possibly to death).

Looking at the surroundings there is no shelter near by.

It would be rude for her to even go inside the house(of Eri's neighbor and ask for shelter wouldnt it?

Soo... were you lying then or were you lying then?

Before Tenma left why didn't she call Eri's cell and home phone? Once Tenma finds out Eri's not home she can ask (by phone) to come inside and wait for her to return. Why didn't Tenma just bring her cellphone call Eri's house number ask if Eri is there, If not she asks to come inside?

No, no let me answer that question. The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

Eri knew that Tenma would be coming and waiting at her house. In fact she asked the butler if there was someone waiting at the front gate.

Your response has nothing to do with the context/content of my quote.

Why should she call the home number?

Your kidding right?

Let's look at the situation: Tenma is waiting at the Gate and rang the bell. She is thinking, that Eri is inside and still mad.

Thats why you call before you go to someone's house. To find out if they are actually there. To gather information about their location when they'll be back etc.

Let's assume that she decided to try calling her instead of ringing, then she probably used the mobile number, and obviously she wouldn't get any response. And since Tenma can't know that Eri doesn't have her phone with her, the only conclusion should be: "She is still mad and won't answer the phone." So why should this be different with the home number?

Assumptions and speculations are meaningless. If Tenma thought Eri was home in the first place she would call her home number not her cell phone number. A meaningless answer to a (meaningless) assumption.

Besides: Maybe she even did try to call the home number. The butler didn't even answer the door bell...

I just love assumptions. There is so much substance and evidence to support them.

I don't know what exactly is your problem

I know what the problem is and it isn't me.

but I think Tenma's action are absolutely understandable and not unrealistic.

I'm not suprised, blind biased delusional fanboys/fangirls usually do.

-Ajax-

2007-02-10, 20:08

Even if there is a house. She'll still be standing outside the house. Which makes no difference than waiting for Eri at the front gate. And even if she went to the trees it wont help her freezing to death wont it?

Actually i would think being under a tree and not being covered by snow head to toe would make it less likely to freeze to death. >_> Either way she didn't, even though she probably should have.

Eri knew that Tenma would be coming and waiting at her house. In fact she asked the butler if there was someone waiting at the front gate.

That was an assumption on her part, she was just confirming it, and to her knowledge Tenma was never there. At least until Ch 211.

Why should she call the home number?
Let's look at the situation: Tenma is waiting at the Gate and rang the bell. She is thinking, that Eri is inside and still mad.
Let's assume that she decided to try calling her instead of ringing, then she probably used the mobile number, and obviously she wouldn't get any response. And since Tenma can't know that Eri doesn't have her phone with her, the only conclusion should be: "She is still mad and won't answer the phone." So why should this be different with the home number?

Besides: Maybe she even did try to call the home number. The butler didn't even answer the door bell...

I don't know what exactly is your problem, but I think Tenma's action are absolutely understandable and not unrealistic.

Actually Eri called home and it was picked up, if Tenma did the same, im sure it could have happened as well. Then again, KJ would have come up with a way for Masaru to somehow not hear the phone ring. :rolleyes:

Ok. I finally saw Ch. 212. Here are my impression.

1. Eri was thinking only about Tenma. She is not concerned with Yakumo nor the slap. If the recent trend continues, I think Eri will be installed as THE main character of the series.
2. Guessing from the previous trends of mangaka, we will soon have Yakumo and Eri talking quietly. It is likely that they will make each other realize something important.
3. I believe it is safe to say Eri will still try to win Harima's heart, but since Tenma is interested in Karasuma, not Harima, she will not harbor any ill feelings towards Tenma, nor towards Yakumo. I think it would be very good for everyone involved, if Eri tells Tenma about Harima's affection for Tenma. It would be even better and more effective, if Yakumo is present to confirm Harima's interest in Tenma.

Looks that way to me, at least for now.

nadare

2007-02-10, 22:20

There is no proof that she did it more than once. Assumptions are meaningless.

I wont comment on this one since, it'll all be just an assumption and we will just be going in circles.

Your response has nothing to do with the context/content of my quote.

Eri knew that Tenma was coming to her house, hence no need to call.

That's why you don't stand outside the neighbor's house like a fool. You ask to come inside.

Soo... were you lying then or were you lying then?

Ah... you misunderstood me. What I meant was no shelter nearby for Eri to easily spot Tenma, after all, the mansion is a big and wide place.

To clear things up I meant. If she was gonna go inside, It would likely that Tenma and Eri would miss each other.

Great point. Then Tenma really shouldn't be outside waiting for Eri should she. She should have left (took shelter or go home) and came back another day. Risking your life to speak to someone immediately when you can do it tomorrow is beyond retarded (Its poor writing). How can you repair a relationship if you (most likely) die?

No comment... But, we all know Tenma's stupidity by now. So her action was really not surprising.

hmm... It feels like i'm defending Tenma instead of Yakumo right now. I was supposed to be defending Yakumo from being labeled as a b*tch by Eri fanboys xD~.

edit:

That was an assumption on her part, she was just confirming it, and to her knowledge Tenma was never there. At least until Ch 211.

It's hard to assume that way because of how Eri said it. She said it like she was so sure that Tenma was waiting for her.

from townsocks translation
Chapter 210
Eri: "...Tenma must be waiting for me in all this snow..."

After she called masaru to confirm if there was someone at the front gate...
Eri: "Of course she went home"

edit again:

In my POV neither of the three were really at fault. It was only a grave misunderstanding.

wontaek

2007-02-10, 22:45

Saw the latest English translation to make sure I was understanding the Raw correctly, and I don't see anything that changes my earlier impression. Eri really seem grown up, and I think she is going to do something important at the next chapter.

I am also entertaining the possibility that Yakumo might have been right to just leave and let Eri alone for a while. That gave Eri chance to realize the important things by herself, which is always more preferrable than having it told to you by another person.

-Ajax-

2007-02-10, 23:16

It's hard to assume that way because of how Eri said it. She said it like she was so sure that Tenma was waiting for her.

from townsocks translation
Chapter 210
Eri: "...Tenma must be waiting for me in all this snow..."

After she called masaru to confirm if there was someone at the front gate...
Eri: "Of course she went home"

Doesn't mean she absolutely knew Tenma was there, though the way she worded may have given that image. As a human thats impossible, at best she assumed that Tenma would probably do that. Hell, some of us assumed it would happen that way, but we sure as heck didn't know for sure.

Where would Tenma go first if she were to keep her promise to apologize to you? Your house would be the first guess, ok, call home and see if she is there...Masaru says no...hmm she must be somewhere else...

I doubt anyone could imagine someone a friend ending up buried in snow voluntarily that way.

faust123

2007-02-10, 23:16

lollll funniest part is we all thought reset was impossible this time.....SURPRISE!!!

redCloudJ7

2007-02-10, 23:40

Before Tenma left why didn't she call Eri's cell and home phone? Once Tenma finds out Eri's not home she can ask (by phone) to come inside and wait for her to return. Why didn't Tenma just bring her cellphone call Eri's house number ask if Eri is there, If not she asks to come inside?

No, no let me answer that question. The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

Eri knew that Tenma would be coming and waiting at her house. In fact she asked the butler if there was someone waiting at the front gate.

Your response has nothing to do with the context/content of my quote.

Eri knew that Tenma was coming to her house, hence no need to call.

Let me repeat myself since you aren't comprehending what I actually wrote. Your response has nothing to do with the context/content of my quote. Eri knowing that Tenma is coming to her house is utterly irrelevant (in this context and quote).
It's about Tenma calling Eri's cell and home phone. Not Eri calling. Not Eri knowing if Tenma might come. Eri isn't the topic here. Tenma calling Eri's home and cell phone is the topic.

Ah... you misunderstood me. What I meant was no shelter nearby for Eri to easily spot Tenma, after all, the mansion is a big and wide place.

To clear things up I meant. If she was gonna go inside, It would likely that Tenma and Eri would miss each other.

Can't Tenma just look out the window of the neighbor's house for Eri to pass by? What if there is some (stupid) reason Tenma can't see Eri? Then Tenma can periodically go outside to see if Eri is coming (without risking her life).

Not to mention she could have asked to borrow the neighbor's phone and call Eri's home phone (just in case she missed her). Once she calls she finds out Eri is not home. Then she can ask to come inside Eri's mansion and wait for Eri to return.

Great point. Then Tenma really shouldn't be outside waiting for Eri should she. She should have left (took shelter or go home) and came back another day. Risking your life to speak to someone immediately when you can do it tomorrow is beyond retarded (Its poor writing). How can you repair a relationship if you (most likely) die?

No comment... But, we all know Tenma's stupidity by now. So her action was really not surprising.

She's been taking shelter throughout the entire manga regardless of her stupidity.

The entire situation of Tenma being covered in snow is nothing more than than a weak excuse from the author to draw sympathy from the readers and make Tenma look innocent.

Risking your life to speak to someone immediately when you can do it tomorrow is beyond retarded. This is a prime example of poor writing. Plain and simple.

redCloudJ7

2007-02-10, 23:55

lollll funniest part is we all thought reset was impossible this time.....SURPRISE!!!

I bet she's so stupid that she won't even ask Eri, why she's so angry. The author uses Tenma's stupidity to dance around the issues. Very effective plot device.

The author is actually quite predictable. He always avoids the main issues. Nothing new here.

wontaek

2007-02-11, 00:05

lollll funniest part is we all thought reset was impossible this time.....SURPRISE!!!

I don't consider this as a reset as the last two pages seems to indicate that irreversible change has occured within Eri. Eri needed experience similar to this in order for her to 'grow up' and become someone really 'capable of love'. There exist very good chance that Eri will tell Tenma about Harima's affection for I consider this as one of essential element to lasting reconciliation between Tenma and Eri. Eri may need Yakumo's help to convince Tenma that Harima is madly in love with Tenma, and discussing this with Tenma and Eri will be a great help to Yakumo as well.

-Ajax-

2007-02-11, 01:40

lollll funniest part is we all thought reset was impossible this time.....SURPRISE!!!

Definitely doesn't look like a reset, just yet.

otacu

2007-02-11, 05:14

I've just read translation of the chapter. Perfect example of how Flag works: two steps forward and one backwards.:D End result: one step forward.

First i didn't expect Yakumo to leave the field so suddenly. She must have been really furious to have left in such a hurry, dragging away Tenma by force and not leaving Eri with a chance to reply.
For once i spot some kind of development on Yakumo's part since the story started... not that it's really that positive. I'm under the impression that Yakumo is changing from being a "protective" sister to a "possessive" sister. She isn't simply protecting and defending her sister: she is deciding what's good and what's bad for her! First she decides what her boyfriend should be (Harima) despite she perfectly knows who Tenma loves (Karasuma). Then she decides how she should handle her friends (and who her friends are?): i was expecting that after the slap she would have left Eri and Tenma the chance to talk and solve the argument. By her perspective after the slap Eri could have been more "understandable" to Tenma's point of view... but instead she simply drags Tenma away not leaving her a chance to deal with HER friend.
It's really good for Yakumo that Tenma is so pure and easygoing.... i would be greatly annoyed if someone tried to decide what's good and what's bad for me (especially since Yakumo is the younger sister). Conveniently Tenma ignores Yakumo's scheme to put her and Harima together.

But the real focus here is on Eri. Eri wasn't given a chance to reply as Yakumo left suddenly (btw if she was so worried about a frozen Tenma wasn't it better to give Eri a chance to reply and then go inside her nearby house to warm up?) but more than the slap ("Even if the pain on my cheek goes away...") she is concerned about her friendship with Tenma that she really treasures ("we can't go back to that time...").
But by the end of the chapter she realizes that she misjudged Tenma thinking that she was toying with her and Harima. Tenma is too easygoing and innocent to be doing something like this. I think that now Eri is now accepting the fact that Tenma will always be like that and will probably comes in the way with Harima without even knowing. She has to bear with that. After all the moment she tried to deal with Tenma more seriously and tried to change her for the better she got slapped. I'm not completely satisfied on Tenma's part since this way her growing is really blocked (by her sister!) but at least it's nice an Eri's part. She is really growing and it's obvious she will continue to be the focus of the manga in the future.
Flag will soon be back in action especially since it has some good cards to play (the movie and the english students :) ).

On a final note the chapter end with a reconciliation: Tenma is back friend with Eri as nothing as happend and Eri's friendship is even stronger now since she accepted the fact that Tenma can be somewhat troublesome at times but she has to deal with it. The only rift left is the one between Eri and Yakumo. Eri doesn't seems to care much but i guess she won't forgive Yakumo easily. Yakumo on the other hand has her plans foiled but will she continue in her petty actions to oppose Eri. If she wants to fight she should at least fight for herself and not using Tenma as a convenient "shield" for her selfish actions.

That was a pretty intense arc and really good for the story. Considering how short SR are i'm amazed on how much happened. The final result of the arc as a whole is only reinforcing the fact that Tenma is the main character only theoretically.:p
Now i guess we will be back to some more funny chapters to break away from this serious chapters.

A completely side note. Eri has a dog! And a big white dog too! This was completely unexpected but really interesting... i think the author played on the fact that Yakumo has a cat... it's only appropriate for Eri to have a dog!:heh:
This is only going to make me like Eri more and more as i absolutely like dogs and i never really liked cats. You know there are these two "factions" IRL....;)
Even random things make me appreciate Eri more. It's even the kind of dogs that i like better: a cute big dog to hug and pet. Ok end of my little rant on that... but i guess it was really destiny for me to like Eri.:D

wontaek

2007-02-11, 07:55

Supporting Eri doesn't mean hating Yakumo.

otacu

2007-02-11, 08:07

Supporting Eri doesn't mean hating Yakumo.

That goes without saying.:)

Owaranai Destiny

2007-02-11, 08:08

It's really good for Yakumo that Tenma is so pure and easygoing.... i would be greatly annoyed if someone tried to decide what's good and what's bad for me (especially since Yakumo is the younger sister). Conveniently Tenma ignores Yakumo's scheme to put her and Harima together.

Meh. I doubt she is even aware of it, like she isn't aware of a gazillion things. This kind of behaviour exhibited can be drawn from the examples shown from their childhood, apparently. I will agree it's a little extreme by my standards.

On a final note the chapter end with a reconciliation: Tenma is back friend with Eri as nothing as happend and Eri's friendship is even stronger now since she accepted the fact that Tenma can be somewhat troublesome at times but she has to deal with it. The only rift left is the one between Eri and Yakumo. Eri doesn't seems to care much but i guess she won't forgive Yakumo easily. Yakumo on the other hand has her plans foiled but will she continue in her petty actions to oppose Eri. If she wants to fight she should at least fight for herself and not using Tenma as a convenient "shield" for her selfish actions.

See? This was exactly what I was afraid of. Negative words used in their entirety to make Yakumo look like a complete villain.:eyespin: I suppose it's all right since you're a Flagger. We all have our own biaseness towards the characters we like.

Tenma isn't the 'shield'. She's the reason why Yakumo reacted so violently, and I think it was discussed some time earlier in this thread (1 or 2 pages before). The exact problem why we cannot say whether she's 'fighting for herself' is because of her motives. Currently, we know that Yakumo supports Oudou, and that isn't really something for herself. Her feelings for Harima are admittingly at best vague and speculative. It isn't something for herself, but something she decided by herself. Same old argument: Good intentions, wrong methods.

risingstar3110

2007-02-11, 09:15

See? This was exactly what I was afraid of. Negative words used in their entirety to make Yakumo look like a complete villain. I suppose it's all right since you're a Flagger. We all have our own biaseness towards the characters we like.
Omg so discriminate :D

Hmm, for those who thought this was a reset , actually i doubt there will be a better way:
- to show how Tenma really was like in Eri eyes all these time (show clearer their relationship)
- for Eri to strengthen her relationship with Tenma ( which have to be if the triangle Tenma-Harima-Eri continue)
- heat up the cold confliction between 2 members of Bloody Mary once again (more seriously ) when in the same time reverse their role.
-provide both Flag and Oginiri more chance
-show character development for Yakumo
-(will edit more if i can remember anything) :P

I thought about this scenario before, but back then i thought Eri and Tenma's roles are reversed ;)

-Ajax-

2007-02-11, 11:40

To presume that Tenma just rang once, only because it was shown only once is a bit narrow-minded.

To assume she had done it more than once without any basis isn't any better.

Hmm, for those who thought this was a reset , actually i doubt there will be a better way:
- to show how Tenma really was like in Eri eyes all these time (show clearer their relationship)
- for Eri to strengthen her relationship with Tenma ( which have to be if the triangle Tenma-Harima-Eri continue)
- heat up the cold confliction between 2 members of Bloody Mary once again (more seriously ) when in the same time reverse their role.
-provide both Flag and Oginiri more chance
-show character development for Yakumo
-(will edit more if i can remember anything) :P

I thought about this scenario before, but back then i thought Eri and Tenma's roles are reversed ;)

No, i think you got em all. Though we will find out how Eri's side of this "conflict" handles the situation. Yakumo slapped her, now what?
-Pretend it didn't happen
-Accept it and move on
-Talk about it face to face
-Vengeance

Matt Soulblade

2007-02-11, 19:29

I dont think this can be a reset, at least not a complete one. The issue with Eri/Yakumo is not solved yet, and even more important, Harima didnt showed this chapter.
...Which is sad. Time is running up, and every time I read a chapter with no serious development the feeling of "Harima is going to end with "lets be friends forever SR FOREVER lol""

HAY GUYS DO YOU REMEMBER A DUDE CALLED Karasuma LOL. Like crow, with a ma xD.

-Ajax-

2007-02-11, 21:24

Yea im still waiting for Harima to show up somewhere in all of this lol

redCloudJ7

2007-02-11, 23:34

So you only accept things, that are written down?

I accept cash, checks, and credit....... What I don't accept is groundless meaningless assumptions. That have no substance. Theories and hypothesis are different however.

Are you stupid?

No, I'm not a blind biased delusional fanboy/fangirl but thanks for asking.

In this case all the characters should have starved a long time ago, since we don't see them eating each chapter...

They have don't you remember? Man that was such a great chapter......

It's absolutely tolerable to assume that a character acts like (s)he would normally do, even if we don't see it. Especially if it doesn't have much impact on the story.

That's not an assumption. That's established characterization. Just like how it was out of Tenma's character to not take shelter (she's been doing it all throughtout the manga).

To presume that Tenma just rang once, only because it was shown only once is a bit narrow-minded.

Just as narrow-minded as you to assume she rang more than once.

Depends on the situation.

And this is one of those situations.

If the house of the person I go to is just a few minutes away I won't call.

Ahh.............isn't that nice. We don't know if Tenma lives a few minutes away from Eri. This is meaningless.

Calling costs money and it's cheaper to go there immediately.

First off its not that expensive to call (I like how you blow everything out of proportion). Have you ever heard of an effective cell phone deal? Ever heard of something called free minutes? Roll over minutes? Nice excuse though.

Tenma doesn't has the slightest idea that Eri isn't at home!

And when I can be sure that the person is at home I won't call either.
Both seems to be the case here!

Tenma doesn't has the slightest idea that Eri isn't at home!

LOL! Soo....are you lying or are you lying? Don't even try to get out of this by saying it was a misunderstanding. Congratulations You've lost all of the non-existant credibility you had.

I definately wouldn't do all this calling! Why should I?;

Yeah who needs to be logical and rational. Bein' logiccall is stupod.

There is nothing I gain from it, that I wouldn't get by continuuing to wait;

Except freezing (possibly) to death. Not mentioning other symptoms and illnesses that can occur from being in this type of weather. And you wouldn't want to miss that now would you.

There is nothing I gain from it, that I wouldn't get by continuuing to wait; except maybe if I'm in a hurry, but I wouldn't even start to wait in this case.

This doesn't make sense. Why would you be in a hurry if your waiting for the person in front of their house? You mean you wouldn't wait for them to return your call? Or you wouldn't wait for the person in front their house?

I hold that the person I wait for is inside and just doesn't want to talk with me yet.

I can't respond to something that I can't comprehend.

Tenma doesn't has the slightest idea that Eri isn't at home!

Mikoto didn't either that's why she called Eri instead of going over to Eri's mansion. And even after Eri hung up on her. Mikoto didn't go to Eri's mansion and stand there all night.

If I consider that the person is away, then I probably would try calling the mobile phone, but when I don't get an answer I go either back to the "at home and still mad" theory, or I think "maybe out, but will probably be back soon".

That's why you call both phones and leave messages, to make sure nothing gets by.

BTW, the longer I stand there, the higher is the possibility, that the person will come home, if she really was away.

By the way, the longer you stand there, the probability of you dying increases.

From my point of view you're the one lacking common sense.

Who's the blind biased delusional fanboy/fangirl with the warped perspective? Its me. I'm the one who favors characters and makes groundless assumptions and speculations trying to put the other characters down that threaten my favorite pairing. I'm the one who plays favorites. I'm wrong and my perspective is biased blind and warped, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

It seems like you want to picture Tenma's overall behaviour as completely unrealistic with might and main, while it is in fact perfectly understandable.

No, I don't picture Tenma's behavior as unrealistic. It is unrealistic. Sorry, The Small One, I don't play favorites.

Of course it's a bit exaggerated, since it's a manga. The snowman-thing wouldn't have happened in real life.

Ah.....No kidding. Not only is it exaggerated its pretty much fake.

but the behaviour itself (waiting patiently) is understandable.

Yeah....putting my life at serious risk to speak to someone immediately when I can do it safely later is completely understandable.

Someone who doesn't understand seems to lack any empathy.

What I lack is blind biased delusional fanboyism/fangirlism.

You would go to totally unknown people and ask them if they let you in? :twitch:

No, your completely right. I would choose the intelligent decision and freeze (possibly) to death.

Besides that I don't know anyone who would just let a stranger into their house, I also don't know of anyone who would seriously expect to be let in.

Your right, I shouldn't even try. I should just freeze (possibly) to death.

The Small One

2007-02-12, 03:42

@redCloudJ7: You really have an awful way of quoting and are reapeating yourself too often.
This is the last time I answer one of you posts... it seems like you don't want to understand anyways (or you aren't able to).

I accept cash, checks, and credit....... What I don't accept is groundless meaningless assumptions. That have no substance. Theories and hypothesis are different however.
So what's with the so called "common sense"? You already mentioned it yourself.
Nobody just rings the bell once.

No, I'm not a blind biased delusional fanboy/fangirl but thanks for asking.
No. It seems you are the opposite: You want to denigate the story as much as you can. I wonder why you are even reading it.

They have don't you remember? Man that was such a great chapter......
Now who is the one who doesn't read the other's posts? I explicitly wrote: "we don't see them eating each chapter". Yes, there were a few chapters in which they were eating, however the story already plays for nearly a year. This few times we see them eat wouldn't be enough.
Therefore we can assume that they also eat when it's not shown, the same way we can assume that they sleep, bathe and do other things, that normal people would do.

That's not an assumption. That's established characterization.
It's called "assumption".

Just like how it was out of Tenma's character to not take shelter (she's been doing it all throughtout the manga).
I can't remember seeing her taking shelter from snow even once.
Besides: Do you even thought about the possibility, that it was to emphasize her determination?

Just as narrow-minded as you to assume she rang more than once.
That's not narrow-minded. It's called open-minded.
Nobody would just rang once, it's a natural premise. If the author wanted to let her only ring once, he should have explicitly told so, becasue nobody would assume so. Except of you.

Ahh.............isn't that nice. We don't know if Tenma lives a few minutes away from Eri. This is meaningless.
Of course we know!
Just use a bit of logic and deductive reasoning: They go to the same school, and they both are walking there. Of course you're free to presume, that one (or both) of them walks a few hours everyday, but a normal person would take it for granted, that they both live in walking distance to the school and therefore only minutes away.

First off its not that expensive to call
I did't say it's expensive! I wrote that it's cheaper to go there immediately. And that's a fact you can't deny. Going there costs absolutely nothing!

LOL! Soo....are you lying or are you lying? Don't even try to get out of this by saying it was a misunderstanding. Congratulations You've lost all of the non-existant credibility you had.
You really seem to have problems to understand what others write.
I wrote, that I wouldn't call, if I'm sure that the person is at home.
And I wrote that Tenma thinks that Eri is at home.
There is absolutely no contradiction.

Yeah who needs to be logical and rational. Bein' logiccall is stupod.
Seems to be your personal philosophy.
There is no logic in calling in this case.

This doesn't make sense. Why would you be in a hurry if your waiting for the person in front of their house? You mean you wouldn't wait for them to return your call? Or you wouldn't wait for the person in front their house?
This was meant as an exception, in which calling would make sense, without any relevance to the story.

Mikoto didn't either that's why she called Eri instead of going over to Eri's mansion. And even after Eri hung up on her. Mikoto didn't go to Eri's mansion and stand there all night.
Mikoto != Tenma.

By the way, the longer you stand there, the probability of you dying increases.
Oh common, you won't die from a bit of snow and coldness. You may get a cold, but you won't die.

Who's the blind biased delusional fanboy/fangirl with the warped perspective? Its me. I'm the one who favors characters and makes groundless assumptions and speculations trying to put the other characters down that threaten my favorite pairing. I'm the one who plays favorites. I'm wrong and my perspective is biased blind and warped, can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

I am not a fanboy. I don't prefer any characters. And contrary to you, I look at the story objectively and with normal logic.

Yeah....putting my life at serious risk to speak to someone immediately when I can do it safely later is completely understandable.
Like I wrote above: You're overreacting with this "put the life in danger" thing. And of course talking now is better than waiting. The situation could get worse if it's postponed too long.

kenjiharima

2007-02-12, 11:58

I was a little bit schocked seeing Eri break down like that.
Probably if ever this was animated many Eri fans and sensitive people would cry, 'cause of the emotions bought...

Though the shifting of the panels kinda reminds me of EVA or Mikoto's, when she saw her sempai already has another girlfriend. But Mikoto's was on a lighter tone and Eri's was black. WHOA!!

FRIENDSHIP POWER PREVAILED!!! :D
YEAY!!!!

-Ajax-

2007-02-12, 14:13

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-12, 16:12

what does the five fingers said to the face? SLAPPPP

-Ajax-

2007-02-12, 17:13

what does the five fingers said to the face? SLAPPPP

Yakumo pulling a Rick James...confirmed. :heh:

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-13, 04:37

Yakumo pulling a Rick James...confirmed. :heh:

she should said "I'm Yakumo Bitch !!!"

redCloudJ7

2007-02-13, 05:28

@redCloudJ7: You really have an awful way of quoting and are reapeating yourself too often.

This coming from a person with non-existant credibility. I'm flattered.

This is the last time I answer one of you posts... .

At least you know when to end your foolishness. Never mind you'll probably respond to this.....We know how much credibility and honesty your words have.

it seems like you don't want to understand anyways (or you aren't able to).

What I don't understand is why your so deluded.

So what's with the so called "common sense"? You already mentioned it yourself. Nobody just rings the bell once.

Yeah, I admit Tenma probably didn't ring the door bell once. So I'm wrong there.

No. It seems you are the opposite: You want to denigate the story as much as you can. I wonder why you are even reading it.

No, I'm a realist. I see things for what they really are (instead of being delusional and biased) and the writing for this part is exceptionally weak compared to KJ's previous chapters. I'm reading it because I enjoy the story, when it's clever.

In this case all the characters should have starved a long time ago, since we don't see them eating each chapter...

They have don't you remember? Man that was such a great chapter......

Now who is the one who doesn't read the other's posts? I explicitly wrote: "we don't see them eating each chapter"..

LOL! You really are as intelligent as Tenma. No wonder you understand her so well. Its called S-A-R-C-A-S-M. I was not being S-E-R-I-O-U-S. Can you comprehend this The Small One? S-A-R-C-A-S-M. The fact that I thought the same as you about Eri's dog is not only embarrassing it's humiliating.

Yes, there were a few chapters in which they were eating, however the story
already plays for nearly a year. This few times we see them eat wouldn't be enough.
Therefore we can assume that they also eat when it's not shown, the same way we can assume that they sleep, bathe and do other things, that normal people would do.

And I thought Tenma was retarded......

It's absolutely tolerable to assume that a character acts like (s)he would normally do, even if we don't see it. Especially if it doesn't have much impact on the story.

That's not an assumption. That's established characterization. Just like how it was out of Tenma's character to not take shelter (she's been doing it all throughtout the manga).

It's called "assumption".

It's established characterization. There is no assumption, no need to assume. Character's behave in specific patterns from the information that we are given about them. For example how Tenma was out of character for not taking shelter from harsh weather when she's been doing it throughout the manga.

I can't remember seeing her taking shelter from snow even once.

Because we all know rain is more dangerous than snow.... Your desperate its obvious. If Tenma takes shelter from rain she's going to take shelter from snow.
It's within her established character. Just like how you stated she's rang the door bell more than once. Which you were right. Tenma would also take shelter from snow. Which is also right.

Besides: Do you even thought about the possibility, that it was to emphasize her determination?

Determination is one thing. Retarded is another. Let me spell it out for you. This wasn't determination.

That's not narrow-minded. It's called open-minded.
Nobody would just rang once, it's a natural premise. If the author wanted to let her only ring once, he should have explicitly told so, becasue nobody would assume so. Except of you.

Yes your right about assuming to only ring once. Exactly how it's a natural premise for Tenma to take shelter from harsh weather(including snow).
Which she did not do.

Of course we know!

You think you do. But you don't.

Just use a bit of logic and deductive reasoning: They go to the same school, and they both are walking there. Of course you're free to presume, that one (or both) of them walks a few hours everyday, but a normal person would take it for granted, that they both live in walking distance to the school and therefore only minutes away.

I'm still waiting for you to use logic and deductive reasoning. I have yet to see it (with the exception of Tenma ringing the door bell more than once). Just because they live in walking distance to the school does not mean they are only a few minutes away. Another groundless worthless assumption.

I did't say it's expensive! I wrote that it's cheaper to go there immediately. And that's a fact you can't deny. Going there costs absolutely nothing!

Except your life, if you stand around like a moron.

You really seem to have problems to understand what others write.

Nah, I just don't like hypocritical fanboys.

You really seem to have problems to understand what others write.
I wrote, that I wouldn't call, if I'm sure that the person is at home.
And I wrote that Tenma thinks that Eri is at home.
There is absolutely no contradiction.

Tenma doesn't has the slightest idea that Eri isn't at home!

And when I can be sure that the person is at home I won't call either.
Both seems to be the case here!

You just stated that Tenma isn't sure. And with this you stated Tenma is sure. Hence seems to be the case here. The Small One you can't bull**** your way out of hypocrisy this time.

Not only hypocrisy, you lied stating that there was no contradiction when there was one. Nice going.

Yeah who needs to be logical and rational. Bein' logiccall is stupod.

Seems to be your personal philosophy.

Hell, I was parodying you (thanks for the inspiration).

There is no logic in calling in this case.

Actually, I would have done exactly the same in Tenma's situation.

Says the guy who believes Tenma's actions are realistic and understandable.
And who shares the same logic as Tenma herself.

Mikoto != Tenma.

Mikoto= Normal (Hence calling). Tenma= epitome of stupidity (who you relate to).

Oh common, you won't die from a bit of snow and coldness. You may get a cold, but you won't die.

Okay, I would have stopped a few minutes before freezing to death, but I can understand that someone who is a bit sillier wouldn't stop.

More Hypocrisy! I like how you try twist everything you say. Too bad your as smart as Tenma.

I am not a fanboy .

Of course not. Your worse. Far worse.

I don't prefer any characters.

Of course you don't. I believe you. And your post history.........

And contrary to you, I look at the story objectively and with normal logic.

Actually, I would have done exactly the same in Tenma's situation.

This is coming from someone who relates to Tenma. There is nothing "normal" about you or your objectivity/logic.

Like anyone believes the garbage that comes from you.

Like I wrote above: You're overreacting with this "put the life in danger" thing .

Okay, I would have stopped a few minutes before freezing to death, but I can understand that someone who is a bit sillier wouldn't stop.

For your own benefit stop posting.

Like I wrote above: You're overreacting with this "put the life in danger" thing .

If I were Yakumo I would do the same. how could you stand your sister being insulted after waiting for your friend for so long that she almost froze to death?

Okay, I would have stopped a few minutes before freezing to death, but I can understand that someone who is a bit sillier wouldn't stop.

Actually i would think being under a tree and not being covered by snow head to toe would make it less likely to freeze to death. >_> Either way she didn't, even though she probably should have.

Right now, it is snowing very hard outside as well as being cold. You can DIE if you are stupid like Tenma and spend hours at outside.

When you're helping someone with possible hypothermia and you're just outside of someone's house, try not to communicate your urgent need to get help with a slap.

And hypothermia can lead to death.

What were you saying about me overreacting?

And of course talking now is better than waiting.

No it isn't. Putting your life at serious risk to speak to someone immediately when you can do it safely tomorrow is beyond retarded.

The situation could get worse if it's postponed too long.

One day is not too long. It's not worth seriously risking your life to speak to someone immediately.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-02-13, 05:53

I think that's enough of bashing from either one of you (No, I'm not a moderator, but it gets on my nerves when supposedly meaningful discussions turn into senseless bashing, whoever started it first). Any additional comments to make? Do so through your PMs. Thank you.

That aside, what really interest me now is what will happen between Eri and Yakumo the next time they meet. Favorite character as she is of mine, I think Yakumo deserves some setbacks, and it would be right if she loses out in the next 'confrontation', especially if it was just to balance out the irrationality of her actions (the slap, no matter how justified it might seem to her).

Either that, or they make peace as soon as they discover the truth about Tenma's and Harima's true feelings (for Yakumo and Eri respectively), though that would lead them somewhere confusing again. :eyespin:

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-13, 11:06

well....yakumo already know what's going on between tenma-eri-harima. The one that need to know the truth are tenma and eri.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-02-13, 11:11

well....yakumo already know what's going on between tenma-eri-harima. The one that need to know the truth are tenma and eri.

No, no...Well, that's true:heh:, but we do need input from Tenma to Yakumo about who she really likes as well, especially since her behaviour towards Eri for the sake of Tenma can probably only be described as 'overbearing', deciding who's good for her on her own account. :)

Which is exactly why the scenario described by wontaek is ideal-Having Yakumo and Eri as well as Tenma (and maybe Harima) sit down somewhere and talk things out. Well, I certainly don't see it happening anytime soon, though. :eyespin:

Gazellie

2007-02-13, 13:17

Supporting Eri doesn't mean hating Yakumo.

You're right :) but I think before (or at least so far in the anime) Yakumo wasnt involving herself too much into the love triangle, just a serie of misunderstandings and that was all =P..for me she was like a very innocent girl xD and I really liked the character

But so far in the manga she's really taking surprising actions, is a good twist, I wanna know what will happen next...haha Im sure ErixHarima fans wont be happy the next chapters.

btw Im one of them....I support Eri lolz :heh:

Witacume

2007-02-13, 13:37

what i felt going in this chapter is that Tenma is going to end up with Harima. This Chapter makes Eri feel like if anyone other than her should get Harima that person is Tenma. This Chapter kinda is like the end of flag and the start of Tenma and Harima. As we see Karasuma is leaving soon. Everyone is happy now. Yakumo is happy since Harima does end up with Tenma, and Eri is finally happy since if any gets her beloved it is Tenma. this seems like a big set up to final conclusion of Harima and Tenma.
Just my Thoughts

wontaek

2007-02-13, 13:39

well....yakumo already know what's going on between tenma-eri-harima. The one that need to know the truth are tenma and eri.

And I wish they would learn the truth, soon.

what i felt going in this chapter is that Tenma is going to end up with Harima. This Chapter makes Eri feel like if anyone other than her should get Harima that person is Tenma. This Chapter kinda is like the end of flag and the start of Tenma and Harima. As we see Karasuma is leaving soon. Everyone is happy now. Yakumo is happy since Harima does end up with Tenma, and Eri is finally happy since if any gets her beloved it is Tenma. this seems like a big set up to final conclusion of Harima and Tenma.
Just my Thoughts

I disagree.

1. Karasuma's departure could simply mean that he is going to devote his full attention to being a professional mangaka, thus dropping out of High School or transferring to special high school for artists. His residence may not change, and if so, there is no reason why Karasuma cannot develope his relation with Tenma. Remember that Karasuma has shown some warm feelings towards Tenma, and Tenma still thinks of him as only guy in the world.

2. Eri's determination can mean almost anything. Nothing is over yet.

3. Harima is also too busy being a mangaka. I would not be surprised if the Publisher teams him up with Karasuma for a new series.

Marsala

2007-02-13, 15:57

1. Karasuma's departure could simply mean that he is going to devote his full attention to being a professional mangaka, thus dropping out of High School or transferring to special high school for artists. His residence may not change, and if so, there is no reason why Karasuma cannot develope his relation with Tenma. Remember that Karasuma has shown some warm feelings towards Tenma, and Tenma still thinks of him as only guy in the world.

Karasuma's attitude towards Tenma is a lot like Harima's attitude towards Eri. He looks out for her and doesn't mind spending time with her, but he's in love with someone else.

Who, you ask? Why, the person whom he smiled at in chapter 142, page 7.

I admit it's a crackpot theory, but there's actually a lot of circumstantial evidence for it scattered about.

Adam E

2007-02-13, 17:29

Karasuma's attitude towards Tenma is a lot like Harima's attitude towards Eri. He looks out for her and doesn't mind spending time with her, but he's in love with someone else.

Or, it might just be that both of them are nice to those girls because they actually like them, and Kobayashi is heading towards a Flag/True Oudou ending.

Who, you ask? Why, the person whom he smiled at in chapter 142, page 7.

Right.

I used to think that The Small One's theory that Eri purposely forgot her cell phone was ludicrous, but it looks very rational compared to this.

I admit it's a crackpot theory, but there's actually a lot of circumstantial evidence for it scattered about.

Like what?

Marsala

2007-02-13, 17:51

Or, it might just be that both of them are nice to those girls because they actually like them, and Kobayashi is heading towards a Flag/True Oudou ending.

But that's so boring. It's the least interesting resolution of the mystery around Karasuma. A character like Karasuma needs a shocking secret.

Right.

I used to think that The Small One's theory that Eri purposely forgot her cell phone was ludicrous, but it looks very rational compared to this.

Like what?
Well, first of all, Karasuma's smile towards Harima in 142. That's huge all by itself. He never smiles at Tenma or shows much emotion at all, but he smiles at Harima just because Harima was looking at him and stammering a little? Very suspicious.

The "lovey-dovey" picture in 188. Harima sabotaged Tenma's attempt and completely got away with it, which was very odd... unless the photo is ironic foreshadowing.

He followed Harima and mimicked his posture for drinking water, and it paid off - Harima asked him out on a lunch "date".

The random mustache wearing.

Chapter 149. Tenma is heartbroken after her present to Karasuma is broken. But does Karasuma comfort her? No. He makes sure that Harima's manuscript is accepted.

Granted, these could all be coincidences, but that smile is extremely suspicious. When a character who never smiles, smiles... it's a definite clue.

wontaek

2007-02-13, 18:43

But that's so boring. It's the least interesting resolution of the mystery around Karasuma. A character like Karasuma needs a shocking secret.

Yes. I think he is the true heir to Southern Pheonix Martial Art school, and he wants someone who is capable of telekinesis ( bending spoons with just a thought ) and horseback archery ( Shooting large bow on top of moving bus qualifies ) to be his bride in order to keep the family bloodline strong, physically. He has made a pact with aliens who wants to study Human psychology, so he interferes just enough to keep things interesting in the High school, in return for psychic powers.

-Ajax-

2007-02-13, 22:51

risingstar3110

2007-02-13, 23:26

Yes. I think he is the true heir to Southern Pheonix Martial Art school, and he wants someone who is capable of telekinesis ( bending spoons with just a thought ) and horseback archery ( Shooting large bow on top of moving bus qualifies ) to be his bride in order to keep the family bloodline strong, physically. He has made a pact with aliens who wants to study Human psychology, so he interferes just enough to keep things interesting in the High school, in return for psychic powers.
....can't be described by word :D

Anyway, hey Marsala i thought in chapter 148, Harima's manuscript was not accepted in the end, wasn't it? Because like that chief editor said: it purposely was meant to only have one reader

PS: got the idea from stoptazmo, you guys think which faction will be responsible for the next "real" kiss (not the faked one like Akira) ^_^

Marsala

2007-02-14, 00:45

Anyway, hey Marsala i thought in chapter 148, Harima's manuscript was not accepted in the end, wasn't it? Because like that chief editor said: it purposely was meant to only have one reader

Where did he say that? In 159, the editor decided to let it through: "No one in this world would think its bad to just read it ..." Was it rejected later? IIRC, the next time Harima's manga was mentioned was the announcement of his serialization in 193.

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 00:46

PS: got the idea from stoptazmo, you guys think which faction will be responsible for the next "real" kiss (not the faked one like Akira) ^_^

I just hope its not HarimaxHanai, though it would be great for a laugh LOL

Adam E

2007-02-14, 01:13

But that's so boring. It's the least interesting resolution of the mystery around Karasuma.

I think you’re underestimating the possibilities with that ending, as well as its popularity.

A character like Karasuma needs a shocking secret.

Characters that go volumes at a time without appearing hardly need anything.

In a Flag/True Oudou ending, or any other one, Karasuma could turn out to be Eri’s fiancé, closing off a crazy love polygon, which would serve as a crazy enough secret.

Well, first of all, Karasuma's smile towards Harima in 142. That's huge all by itself. He never smiles at Tenma or shows much emotion at all, but he smiles at Harima just because Harima was looking at him and stammering a little? Very suspicious.

Karasuma smirks at Harima after Harima makes a fool of himself. Obviously, Karasuma is sexually attracted to men.

Or, Karasuma might actually have a sense of humour deep inside, and the scene shows that Karasuma has more depth than we initially thought.

The "lovey-dovey" picture in 188. Harima sabotaged Tenma's attempt and completely got away with it, which was very odd... unless the photo is ironic foreshadowing.

Or, the scene might be foreshadowing Harima sabotaging his actual relationship with Tenma.

He followed Harima and mimicked his posture for drinking water, and it paid off - Harima asked him out on a lunch "date".

Or, Kobayashi might just be demonstrating that the two are similar to set Karasuma up as a foil to Harima.

Karasuma doesn’t follow Harima to the fountain and he arrives there after Harima is done drinking, so he can’t be mimicking Harima since he didn’t even see Harima drinking from the fountain.

The random mustache wearing

Yeah, it’s not like Kobayashi used that scene as an excuse for Harima to grow a ridiculously long beard.

Chapter 149. Tenma is heartbroken after her present to Karasuma is broken. But does Karasuma comfort her? No. He makes sure that Harima's manuscript is accepted.

Or, Karasuma might be too nervous to help Tenma out because he likes her. Or, he could be repaying a debt to Harima for coming over to help him out a volume earlier. Or, maybe Karasuma was too captivated by the curry Tenma gave him to think about her.

I don’t have anything that proves any of these possibilities, but there’s no strong indication Karasuma did so because he likes Harima, either.

By the way, it’s actually Chapter 159.

Granted, these could all be coincidences, but that smile is extremely suspicious. When a character who never smiles, smiles... it's a definite clue.

From a plot perspective, what would be the point of Karasuma liking Harima?

It would serve to eliminate the possibility of True Oudou happening, and I can’t imagine Kobayashi possibly using such an asinine revelation just to get Karasuma out of Harima’s way and force an Oudou ending.

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-14, 05:13

woohooo......finally the mods get into the action to stop the useless bashing in this thread.....its about time someone do something about it.

but yea.......i think my previous post kinda sums up of things that need to be done between the four of them ( harima, eri, tenma, yakumo).......and maybe akira too for the heck of it. She knows what's going on between everyone. maybe KJ will draw akira's smile at the end of this series........

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 07:38

Yeah, it’s not like Kobayashi used that scene as an excuse for Harima to grow a ridiculously long beard. :heh:

That was one of my favorite parts, he looked ridiculous with that long beard. Then of course, it was cut off by... err accident. :P

She knows what's going on between everyone. maybe KJ will draw akira's smile at the end of this series........[

That is definitely one of the things i just have to see before this series is over. Like Nagato Yuki's smile, its like a rare treasure waiting to be unearthed. :D

Owaranai Destiny

2007-02-14, 09:28

I'm sorta confused by the theories behind Karasuma smiling, though most of them were interesting to envision. (HarimaxKarasuma=Rivals faction?!?) :heh:

I thought there might be another interpretation of that. Perhaps it was just what was seen by Harima through his own POV regarding his own failures or inferiority compared to him. After all, Hige-kun does tend to have an overly imaginative mind at times. :p

Just a wild guess, no less.

kenjiharima

2007-02-14, 10:04

Well Harima presumes and always thinks negatively to Kurasuma to the point even Kappa-san hasn't done anything, he thinks he's doing something...ACK!! IS Harima acting like a jealous girl?! Well...imho sometimes he does, but deep inside down there the bad ass harima still lurks and is yet to be seen again in the future chapters.

bets here...do you think Harima might get mad at Eri in the future chapters when he knows what has hapen? Imho I think Harima matured abit so he won't he'l analyze the situation 1st hand...but then again i might be wrong :P

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 14:17

Adam E

2007-02-14, 14:30

bets here...do you think Harima might get mad at Eri in the future chapters when he knows what has hapen? Imho I think Harima matured abit so he won't he'l analyze the situation 1st hand...but then again i might be wrong :P

I really doubt it would become a serious issue, since someone would need to tell Harima about the incident. Tenma seems to have forgiven and forgotten about Eri, so I don’t think she would tell Harima about it. If Eri tells Harima about it, she’d be “confessing her sin” so I doubt the law of poetic justice would allow Harima to get mad, or stay mad at Eri.

If Yakumo tells Harima about it, she’d be “tattling” on Eri and I can’t see why she’d do that unless she was purposely trying to ruin Flag, which would make her an antagonist. Since ruining Eri’s happiness by getting Harima angry at her would be her goal in that scenario, there’s no way Yakumo would succeed in the end.

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 14:34

I really doubt it would become a serious issue, since someone would need to tell Harima about the incident. Tenma seems to have forgiven and forgotten about Eri, so I don’t think she would tell Harima about it. If Eri tells Harima about it, she’d be “confessing her sin” so I doubt the law of poetic justice would allow Harima to get mad, or stay mad at Eri.

If Yakumo tells Harima about it, she’d be “tattling” on Eri and I can’t see why she’d do that unless she was purposely trying to ruin Flag, which would make her an antagonist. Since ruining Eri’s happiness by getting Harima angry at her would be her goal in that scenario, there’s no way Yakumo would succeed in the end.

Good point.

What about rumors? It is a school after all. It would be strange for other people to just know about it, if anything they would either be vague rumors or wildly exaggerated ones.

Adam E

2007-02-14, 14:40

What about rumors? It is a school after all. It would be strange for other people to just know about it, if anything they would either be vague rumors or wildly exaggerated ones.

Someone would have to start the rumours, and as far as we know the only people that know about the incident are Tenma, Eri, and Yakumo. Kobayashi could reveal there was a witness we didn't know about, but that'd be a weak method of getting Harima and everyone to know about the event.

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 15:10

Someone would have to start the rumours, and as far as we know the only people that know about the incident are Tenma, Eri, and Yakumo. Kobayashi could reveal there was a witness we didn't know about, but that'd be a weak method of getting Harima and everyone to know about the event.

Well that kills most possibilities, and unless Yakumo tattles, we probably won't see Harima knowing a thing about this lol

wontaek

2007-02-14, 16:22

Well that kills most possibilities, and unless Yakumo tattles, we probably won't see Harima knowing a thing about this lol

Yakumo has never actively sought out Harima, so the chance of that happening is almost nil.

Adam E

2007-02-14, 16:30

Well that kills most possibilities, and unless Yakumo tattles, we probably won't see Harima knowing a thing about this lol

Indeed, hence my reasoning for Harima being angry, or staying angry, at Eri being unlikely if he finds out.

Even if it's revealed that Harima witnessed what happened in Chapter 211, I still don't think he'd get mad at Eri. Harima would have to be a fair distant away from Eri, Tenma, and Yakumo to not get noticed, so he wouldn't be able to hear what was being said, and suddenly he'd see Yakumo slapping Eri and dragging Tenma away. In that scenario, I think he'd just get mad at Yakumo since he seems so protective of Eri, although I don't think that scenario will happen.

Yakumo has never actively sought out Harima, so the chance of that happening is almost nil.

Harima frequently phones Yakumo for help on his manga, and Yakumo could let that information "slip" during one of those conversations.

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 17:59

Indeed, hence my reasoning for Harima being angry, or staying angry, at Eri being unlikely if he finds out.

Even if it's revealed that Harima witnessed what happened in Chapter 211, I still don't think he'd get mad at Eri. Harima would have to be a fair distant away from Eri, Tenma, and Yakumo to not get noticed, so he wouldn't be able to hear what was being said, and suddenly he'd see Yakumo slapping Eri and dragging Tenma away. In that scenario, I think he'd just get mad at Yakumo since he seems so protective of Eri, although I don't think that scenario will happen.

Hmm if Harima saw the slap... :uhoh:

If anything he would be extremely confused, maybe he would want to find out why it happened. Even he would notice something like that to be totally out of character for Yakumo. Or he would do something more like his character and imagine something that is completely different to what really happened and run with it. :eyespin:

but if he did get protective of Eri all of a sudden... it would be pretty cool :naughty:

Adam E

2007-02-14, 18:27

If anything he would be extremely confused, maybe he would want to find out why it happened. Even he would notice something like that to be totally out of character for Yakumo. Or he would do something more like his character and imagine something that is completely different to what really happened and run with it. :eyespin:

Harima seems more like the type to let his imagination run wild, instead of actually figuring out what's going on. Remember, one time he convinced himself that Tenma couldn't like Karasuma because the two are related, and he did go mental in front of the “Love Hotel” not too long ago.

but if he did get protective of Eri all of a sudden... it would be pretty cool :naughty:

It would be in character for Harima if he did. Only a few chapters earlier he decided to stay at a Love Hotel with Eri so that she wouldn’t get sick. The only question would be if Tenma’s presence would affect his reaction.

But this is just a hypothetical scenario that I don’t think is going to happen, so it doesn’t matter too much.

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 20:59

Harima seems more like the type to let his imagination run wild, instead of actually figuring out what's going on. Remember, one time he convinced himself that Tenma couldn't like Karasuma because the two are related, and he did go mental in front of the “Love Hotel” not too long ago.

Yea, he lets his imagination run wild on many occassions, its most likely what he would do in this type of scenario too :heh:

It would be in character for Harima if he did. Only a few chapters earlier he decided to stay at a Love Hotel with Eri so that she wouldn’t get sick. The only question would be if Tenma’s presence would affect his reaction.

I don't know if he honestly cares about Eri's health or if he would think the same way with any other girl in that given situation. Except if it was Tenma he would have blown a gasket in front of that hotel.

But this is just a hypothetical scenario that I don’t think is going to happen, so it doesn’t matter too much.

but of course ::)

Owaranai Destiny

2007-02-14, 21:21

I agree with confusion on Harima's part. That is, depending on how he had happened to chance upon the incident, by word or by sight without knowing the contents of the conversation.

1) His imagination might run wild, thinking of several possibilities which would seem logical to him, and all involving Tenma.

2) He would just seem confused, and might try to ask Eri or Yakumo about it, in which the former would probably deny more than speak the truth (since the whole thing's over) while the latter might react in an unexpected manner (either tell her version of the truth, or simply cause her to think back to the events that happened and instead reflect on what she did).

Either way, I don't envision him asking Tenma directly. :p

Adam E

2007-02-14, 21:25

I don't know if he honestly cares about Eri's health or if he would think the same way with any other girl in that given situation. Except if it was Tenma he would have blown a gasket in front of that hotel.

Harima reacted very strongly to the situation with Eri: "This is the last thing I want to do!!!" accompanied by a descent into the pit of despair. Compare this to all of Harima's "awkward" situations with Yakumo where Harima has no reaction.

So far as we know, the only two girls capable of getting powerful reactions from him are Tenma and Eri. To even get noticed by Mr. Tenma-obsessed is an accomplishment.

-Ajax-

2007-02-14, 22:05

Harima reacted very strongly to the situation with Eri: "This is the last thing I want to do!!!" accompanied by a descent into the pit of despair. Compare this to all of Harima's "awkward" situations with Yakumo where Harima has no reaction.

So far as we know, the only two girls capable of getting powerful reactions from him are Tenma and Eri. To even get noticed by Mr. Tenma-obsessed is an accomplishment.

I guess any reaction is better than no reaction :heh: he is still way into his tunnel vision though, even if it feels like the tunnel has a few cracks forming on it lol

Swampstorm

2007-02-17, 11:17

Ch. 213 is out.

Looks like preparation for Akira's movie to be shot. Lots of Eri (which is great) showing off her legendary talent for different sports (even better), and it looks like she'll have to wear an odd-looking costume next chapter.

Great stuff. :)

-Ajax-

2007-02-17, 13:23

Huh? Where? Is it just the RAW at the moment?

Adam E

2007-02-17, 20:33

Huh? Where? Is it just the RAW at the moment?

Yeah. It shouldn't be too long until Townsocks gets the English translation out, though.

Anyways, while it's always nice to see a chapter focusing on Eri, it looks like this chapter's purpose is to just get a "Movie" arc going.

-Ajax-

2007-02-17, 21:49

Oye, darn movie arc. lol well lets see what happens from here on out

ZODDGUTS

2007-02-17, 22:57

Looks like Akira after having her conversation with Eri she made some alterations to the script most likely to help out Eri with some of the troubles that Eri is currently having with Harima.

BTW Nice costume. :heh:

Forever

2007-02-17, 23:37

LoL looks like Eri got owned by akira at the last part. But isnt that character in the script is how harima thinks of eri? Akira is at work I see...

RandomGuy

2007-02-17, 23:50

Wow, Townsocks really mangled the Shakespeare reference at the beginning of this week's chapter. :eyebrow:

おお播磨　播磨！あなたはどうして播磨なの？
Oh Harima, Harima, wherefore art thou Harima?

Townsocks

2007-02-18, 00:00

Wow, Townsocks really mangled the Shakespeare reference at the beginning of this week's chapter. :eyebrow:

JULIET
O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Capulet.

Eri:
おお播磨播磨！
Oh Harima Harima

あなたはどうして播磨なの？
Lit: "Why are you Harima" or "Why Harima" or even "What is wrong Harima"

私を想うならあなたのお仕事を捨てて。。。
If you're thinking of me then throw away your work and...

--------

It seemed kinda iffy to me when I did it. I would think they'd get a more literal translation if they wanted to reference Romeo and Juliet.

O well :heh:

-Ajax-

2007-02-18, 00:01

LoL looks like Eri got owned by akira at the last part. But isnt that character in the script is how harima thinks of eri? Akira is at work I see...

I wonder what the results of Akira's interference in this will be lol

Wow, Townsocks really mangled the Shakespeare reference at the beginning of this week's chapter. :eyebrow:

In a hurry maybe? :uhoh:

RandomGuy

2007-02-18, 00:04

It seemed kinda iffy to me when I did it. I would think they'd get a more literal translation if they wanted to reference Romeo and Juliet.

O well :heh:
"Wherefore" means "why". :)

I didn't cite the line after it because it deviated further from Shakespeare, but the first two word balloons seem like a pretty airtight fit. If you wanted to make the subsequent line Shakespearean, you could have it read, "If thou think'st upon me, throw away thy work and..." or something to that effect.

(Plus I think you're confusing "doushite" and "doushita". "Doushite" is "why," "doushita" is "what's wrong?")

Adam E

2007-02-18, 01:04

But isnt that character in the script is how harima thinks of eri? Akira is at work I see...

Yep. I get the feeling Akira is setting up an opportunity for Eri to destroy Harima's prejudice for her.

Two moments in the chapter stick out to me: First, Eri's response to Akira's question "Maybe...someday has already taken his heart?" suggests that Eri still has no idea that Harima likes Tenma, and that the feud with Tenma started because Eri believed Tenma was trying to "seduce" Harima. Second, Eri says that there's something more important to her than her relationship with Harima; this indicates that Eri decided that her friendship with Tenma is more important to her than Harima back in Chapter 211.

I wonder what the results of Akira's interference in this will be lol

I think the spare Akira makes at the bowling alley may foreshadow the results.

-Ajax-

2007-02-18, 01:58

Yep. I get the feeling Akira is setting up an opportunity for Eri to destroy Harima's prejudice for her.

That alone would be a HUGE leap for Flag.

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-18, 01:58

hm......lots of thinking in this chapter. I don't know why, but i think i started to falling in love with akira. she's like master mind of this series. I wonder what kind of script akira made this time?

As for the foreshadowing from akira......I think akira trying to say that it IS possible for eri to have relationship with harima without losing her friendship with tenma. Although, it's kinda creepy to take on advice from someone who never had a relationship (so far we know....) I wonder what kind of man would make akira's heart melt to the floor? or she's probably a lesbian......or a bisexual beast.......omg....i let my mind wonder too farr.........

But yea........great conversation between the two. I'm hoping there will be confrontation with yakumo on the next chapter. I want to see how eri will act after the five-finger incident.

OMGItsTehSARS

2007-02-18, 02:48

That alone would be a HUGE leap for Flag.

What prejudice are we talking about?...so confused. Maybe prejudice is the wrong word....

-Ajax-

2007-02-18, 11:40

What prejudice are we talking about?...so confused. Maybe prejudice is the wrong word....

Well, you have to remember how Harima still thinks of Eri as a "princess", its the reason he hated her early on in the series. His image of her has undoubtedly changed but there still that lingering prejudice that tends to ruin any chances of him really liking her. (that and the tunnel vision)

Adam E

2007-02-18, 16:19

That alone would be a HUGE leap for Flag.

It’s about the only leap Flag really needs.

As for the foreshadowing from akira......I think akira trying to say that it IS possible for eri to have relationship with harima without losing her friendship with tenma. Although, it's kinda creepy to take on advice from someone who never had a relationship (so far we know....)

Well, of course it's possible for Eri to have a relationship with Harima without losing her friendship with Tenma. All Eri has to do is make Harima like her more than Tenma.

I wonder what kind of man would make akira's heart melt to the floor? or she's probably a lesbian......or a bisexual beast.......omg....i let my mind wonder too farr.........

Hanai.

But yea........great conversation between the two. I'm hoping there will be confrontation with yakumo on the next chapter. I want to see how eri will act after the five-finger incident.

Eri didn’t seem to react to Yakumo slapping her, so I don’t think she’s going to confront Yakumo. Tenma looked to like she was more upset about it than Eri, though, so I think Tenma is more likely to do something. I’m not even sure if Jin Kobayashi is going to do something with Yakumo, though, since he seems to avoid developing Yakumo as much as possible.

What prejudice are we talking about?...so confused. Maybe prejudice is the wrong word....

Prejudice

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

It's a good word to use to describe Harima's opinion of Eri. Chapter 152 is a good example of Harima being prejudiced towards Eri.

-Ajax-

2007-02-18, 17:03

It's a good word to use to describe Harima's opinion of Eri. Chapter 152 is a good example of Harima being prejudiced towards Eri.

Its also one chapter where we see his opinion start to change a little. :)

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-18, 22:04

I dont think hanai is the right man for akira. early in the series, she said she hates having to cooperate with hanai. Also, on the second season, she seems to get along really well with togou and harry during the party.

Maybe KJ should do a side story about akira's love interest. since she's the only one with unknown match in this series.

chubbyphil

2007-02-18, 23:02

like how someone had already mentioned it before. togou x akira can be the movie faction.

wontaek

2007-02-18, 23:21

Akira's love interest may be a mob boss in Sicily

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-19, 01:01

hm......maybe we should ask the mod to make a poll on who akira should go out with. I think it's a hot topic that never been brought up in this forum. especially after this chapter.

I wouldn't say akira is even slightly interested with togou. It seems like she only using togou to make the movie in which helping her opens up ways for eri to get it on with harima. Besides, we all know that akira never let her emotion comes up to the surface (i.e. smilling...etc). So, i don't think akira X togou is a pairing at all.

Oh btw...that eri's dress for the new play is really kinky......i can't wait to see how they will put it for the anime.

kauldron26

2007-02-19, 01:12

so is it time for those of us that abandoned school rumble because of lack of character development to jump back on. Has there been any really progress void of the "reset button"?? just curious...

The Small One

2007-02-19, 04:07

Akira seems as as unimpressed as Karasuma, in terms of love interests. I wonder if those two belong to the same species. ;)

Swampstorm

2007-02-19, 04:20

This chapter sets a lot of my fears concerning the series at ease.

For the past few chapters, it looked like SR was very nearly developing into a single-character show. While Eri has proved time and again that she's a strong enough character to carry the entire weight of the show by herself, we haven't seen all that many interesting interactions between characters in a while - there just haven't been any really strong characters available for her to interact with. Harima was shifted into the background for the majority of the past 10 chapters or so. Both Tsukamoto sisters are completely static, and so neither has received the proper character development to be anything other than stage props for Eri's internal conflicts.

Enter Akira.
Chapters like these really remind me of what really got me into SR in the first place. The characters and their interactions make the series what it is - the plot is secondary. In any other series, you might expect to catch only the faintest glimpses of a personality behind side characters who are quiet, introverted, poker-faced, who receive relatively little screen time and who are generally mysterious. Yet, in the few chapters which we've been given insight into her character, Akira has shown herself to have a considerable amount of depth. When a character is properly designed, mystery and personality are not mutually exclusive. Akira wins this chapter.

Another thing that I was concerned about before this chapter was the idea behind the slap in Ch.211. Based on the side comments, it seemed as if KJ was moralizing that it's selfish to value your own dreams over the act of pleasing those around you - which I found odd, because it was in direct conflict with the speech that Harima made back in Ch.152.

With that in mind, Akira's dismissive statement on the matter in this chapter was absolutely brilliant.

"I guess I'm just selfish."

Ah, if only I had this quote back a few chapters ago when Onigiri/Oudou shippers were railing out against Eri's supposed "cruelty". :D

Eri has no reason to fill herself with guilt over the incident - she does so because she feels responsible for keeping the people around her happy. We saw this back during the Omiai arc, when Eri felt that she had to give up her dreams to make her family happy. In Ch. 212, we saw an even more direct expression of these sentiments - Eri feels as if the responsibility for preserving Tenma's smile rests in her hands. With Akira's words, giving way to Oudou no longer necessarily the "morally right" thing to do - it becomes a mistake that Eri must avoid making in order to overcome her need to please others. A refreshing change.

I also thought this chapter very nicely matched up with the scene between Eri and Akira in Ep.4 S2 (which, oddly enough, also occured just before a play that Akira wrote). The two of them seem much more open around each other than around their other friends. I don't recall Eri discussing her feelings for Harima openly with anyone else before this.

I thought that it was interesting how the two characters' individual approaches to sports seemed to reflect their respective personalities. Eri was the focus of attention for most of the frames, making dramatic hits and consistant strikes. When you look more closely, though, while Akira is only making spares, she seems to be making them off of 7-10 split conversions. It's almost as if she's deliberately handicapping herself for the extra challenge. :heh:

I have a few guesses as to where this setup is going. The fact that Akira changed the script after talking to Eri suggests that the issues that they discussed will be reflected in the movie. Here's the part that I found really interesting, though - based on the description in the script book in the last frame, it looks like Eri is supposed to play the role of the villain in that story. Remember that Akira and Tougou originally had Eri as the heroine of the story - so this change should also be relevant to the conversation held earlier.

If Akira wanted to revisit the issues that she discussed with Eri during the movie, then it would be a fairly simple matter of setting Tenma as the heroine. The evil queen is the girl who has everything, after all. Everything but the one thing that she really wants.

In addition, the roles of the three characters (hero, heroine, and villainess) would coincide with Harima's worldview - ensuring his participation and providing a means for him to reflect on his own views.

Of course, Tougou's interest in Tenma would make it less likely for him to create a script involving Tenma as the love interest for Harima, but this was all just a wild guess to begin with. Take it with a grain of salt. ;)

Decagon

2007-02-19, 04:58

Hm. I'm just wondering when Yakumo will show up to spice things up.

Swampstorm, I've been meaning to ask this for a while--do you think Eri would look better with or without glasses?

-Ajax-

2007-02-19, 11:34

Swampstorm, I've been meaning to ask this for a while--do you think Eri would look better with or without glasses?

:twitch: I wonder...someone photoshop some glasses on her!! :heh:

Swampstorm

2007-02-19, 12:18

I completely missed Adam E's interpretation of Akira's split conversion to symbolize achieving two seemingly mutual exclusive things at the same time. It's a clever idea.

Hm. I'm just wondering when Yakumo will show up to spice things up.
You mean bland things up, right? :heh:

Swampstorm, I've been meaning to ask this for a while--do you think Eri would look better with or without glasses?
If she drops the twin tails and lets her hair down, the glasses might work well - she looks more mature with her hair down, and the glasses would add to the effect. The disadvantage is that unless they were rimless, they would partially obscure her eyes, which are one of her most striking features (although their addition might also highlight that feature, if done properly). They'd definitely need to be small, though - nothing near the scale of what Hanai or Yuuki use.

The anime style approach to setting the proportions of different facial features throws things off, somewhat. Where glasses can normally be both small and properly centred, they look much less functional with massively enlarged eyes and a small nose.

I'm pretty sure that she could make the look work, though.

Freeter

2007-02-19, 12:45

You mean bland things up, right? :heh:

"bland"? She certainly riled your throat with that slap :heh:

And establishing her as a pseudo-villain with her hatred of Flag would make SR 10x more interesting than just having everything conveniently fall Eri's way. It would be like the school play, only for real.

Maybe Akira can arrange another school war and film that also :heh:

-Ajax-

2007-02-19, 17:21

No more school wars please. >.> It was funny once, doing it again is just redundant.

Cal-Reflector

2007-02-19, 17:51

Haven't followed the manga in a good while now. Would someone mind telling whether anything has happened to Hanai, Asou, and Mikoto since Mikoto and Asou broke up?

Swampstorm

2007-02-19, 18:15

"bland"? She certainly riled your throat with that slap :heh:
It really has nothing to do with the slap. It's just the truth. She's always been bland. It really isn't all that uncommon of an opinion. :heh:

That's hardly an insult, though. Rice, for example, is typically bland and tasteless - but as a side dish, it still makes for a cheap and effective filler, when eaten in moderation. There's a positive side to everything.

It was never my intent to be insulting. If it was, I would have been much more subtle about it. :naughty:

And establishing her as a pseudo-villain with her hatred of Flag would make SR 10x more interesting than just having everything conveniently fall Eri's way. It would be like the school play, only for real.
I really haven't seen anything in SR work out "conveniently" for Eri, so far. She's had the hardest journey out of anyone in the story.

I really don't think that the choice of antagonist matters all that much, though - such characters are only there to provide resistance.

Haven't followed the manga in a good while now. Would someone mind telling whether anything has happened to Hanai, Asou, and Mikoto since Mikoto and Asou broke up?
Nope. It bothers me, though, because I do want to know more about the other characters. It's like the entire supporting cast went on vacation for the past 20 chapters or so. Hopefully this chapter marks a change - I'm really starting to miss them.

-Ajax-

2007-02-19, 18:17

Haven't followed the manga in a good while now. Would someone mind telling whether anything has happened to Hanai, Asou, and Mikoto since Mikoto and Asou broke up?

No not much really.

tacobueno

2007-02-20, 15:32

Raw for b48 is out today, lil story about Mihara.

Adam E

2007-02-20, 15:49

Raw for b48 is out today, lil story about Mihara.

How exciting. I had to check to wikipedia to remember who she is. Oh well, the main purpose of the b chapters is to flesh out minor characters.

-Ajax-

2007-02-20, 16:57

sweet, a b chapter to tide us over until the next main chapter :D

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-20, 21:29

i hope it wont be mihara getting her moves on at asou.......but wait.....that would be cool

kenjiharima

2007-02-21, 13:19

i hope it wont be mihara getting her moves on at asou.......but wait.....that would be cool

yeah that could spice things up...but as I remember she likes Imadori. :heh:

Maybe KJ made this chapter to make spark with Karen x Imadori x Mihara rivalry. Just a guessing since she doesn't have that much air time in the series nor manga.

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-21, 21:58

yeah that could spice things up...but as I remember she likes Imadori. :heh:

Maybe KJ made this chapter to make spark with Karen x Imadori x Mihara rivalry. Just a guessing since she doesn't have that much air time in the series nor manga.

That would be unlikely. First, imadori seems to getting close to karen. He seems to accepts her instead running away from her. It would take something better than karen to compete for imadori.

In relation with first statement, Imadori's true goal is D-cup. something that mihara doesn't have. She doesn't have the boobies nor the strength to compete with karen. But I admit she is better looking that karen...at least in the anime and manga too.

Second, mihara is a ganguro girl (look it up at wikipedia). Ganguro girls are known to be permiscuous and like to flirt with men (at least most of them)

biomy

2007-02-21, 23:11

ganguro girls are also freaky looking and get made fun of on 4chan

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-21, 23:13

at least mihara isn't that freaky....on the series.

-Ajax-

2007-02-22, 00:18

But I admit she is better looking that karen...at least in the anime and manga too.

Blasphemy!! O_o

ichigoismyhomie

2007-02-24, 07:10

Blasphemy!! O_o

lol.....just think about her as young beyonce ( but she can't sing). dark skin...blonde hair...flirtacious...and sexy. Don't get me wrong....karen is pretty cute...but not sexy. she can be a klutz at times. I don't see why karen-imadori pairing shouldn't progress...even though it may be slow. That's why I said it's impossible for mihara to compete for imadori against karen.

well....maybe the same thing apply with asou too. Suou got big rack :D , able to kick ass (literally), and knows how to make great food. There's no way mihara would compete with her. But...i guess we just have to wait and see what will happen next....:confused:

Streetor

2007-02-24, 10:51

This next chapter does not bode well for the flaggers

Eri rips up Harima's manga right in front of him

faust123

2007-02-24, 11:34

Yeah, I am definitely a flag fan and this is bad news.

Eri changes the script around in order to try to reveal Harima's true feelings. Looks like Eri has finally confirmed to herself that Harima likes tenma. I don't see Eri continuing to fight for Harima, but I could be wrong.

I really hope I am wrong :(

ShikaShika

2007-02-24, 12:56

What I'm mostly looking forward to is
Tenma's reaction. Even she should be able to piece the information together soon...

Freeter

2007-02-24, 12:58

I highly doubt this is the end of Flag. This whole situation is just begging for another misunderstanding.

Eri will probably think, 'oh, Hige was just into it, and if he had to choose between the girl or the manga, he chose what was irreplaceable...in other words, if it was me and not Tenma, he'd choose me :love: '.

That is, of course, unless Jin actually wants Eri to finally get a clue (which she should've had way way back in the Kyoto arc).

Forever

2007-02-24, 12:58

Harima is so going to have Eri's head for this! Tearing up his script like that.

However, this might actually turn well for flag if eri start assisting his manga work to make it up to him... Lets hope not for the sake of onigiri

taichikun14

2007-02-24, 13:36

oh poor harima. it hurt me to read this chapter, but at the same time i'm really happy for Oudo! :)

wontaek

2007-02-24, 14:04

What I'm mostly looking forward to is
Tenma's reaction. Even she should be able to piece the information together soon...

I highly doubt that as Tenma have not seen the script. I also don't think Eri draws well enough to assist Harima. I got a hunch Akira is going to do something the next chapter.

Marsala

2007-02-24, 14:19

I highly doubt that as Tenma have not seen the script. I also don't think Eri draws well enough to assist Harima. I got a hunch Akira is going to do something the next chapter.

Tenma doesn't need to see the script, as Eri's demand to choose either the manga or Tenma was improvised. Tenma heard Harima choose her over the manga, so all she has to do is figure out why... or just listen to Tougou's line in the final panel.

On the other hand, this IS Tenma we're talking about.

On the other other hand, she realized that the whole scenario was part of the DVD filming before Harima did, and he figured it out as soon as he saw the cameras. So perhaps we've moved beyond the moronic denseness for both of them?

Nah.

biomy

2007-02-24, 14:45

this reminds me of ranma 1/2 where ranma said that ryouga had to choose between either akane or akari

but i think the readers are exaggerating the scene a little bit

BOZZY

2007-02-24, 14:54

Interesting chapter, it makes one wonder what'll happen with the story with next week's chapter...

-Ajax-

2007-02-24, 15:13

This reminds me more of a "shave Harima's head/cut his beard" type of situation. :rolleyes:

Mentar

2007-02-24, 15:30

Are we 100% positive that whatever Eri tore up really WAS the manuscript and not something else? Well, Akira went "Ah!", but that would be a typical SR-resolution... ;)

Anyway, personally I think that it's not a bad chapter for Flag at all. We knew for a fact that Harima was totally into Tenma all the time. What needs to happen for Flag is something drastic, something so extreme that it actually alters Harima's perception of Eri. Desecrating his works (and the subsequent storm) might be just it.

Marsala

2007-02-24, 15:57

Are we 100% positive that whatever Eri tore up really WAS the manuscript and not something else? Well, Akira went "Ah!", but that would be a typical SR-resolution... ;)
I think we can be at least 99% positive. Unless Eri pulled some sort of sleight of hand maneuver, she should have been holding the real manuscript the entire time. Also, Harima should be able to recognize his own work even if we can't because KJ didn't bother to add detail.

Anyway, personally I think that it's not a bad chapter for Flag at all. We knew for a fact that Harima was totally into Tenma all the time. What needs to happen for Flag is something drastic, something so extreme that it actually alters Harima's perception of Eri. Desecrating his works (and the subsequent storm) might be just it.
It's the sort of situation that's so negative that it practically demands some sort of positive movement in the future. But it could end up either, "one step backward, two steps forward," or, "two steps backward, one step forward".

The Small One

2007-02-24, 17:00

At least she just ripped it into two pieces. It can be put back together.
If she set it to fire, like she threatened to, Harima would have a real problem.

risingstar3110

2007-02-24, 17:12

risingstar3110

2007-02-24, 17:24

Any1 of you made the right guess about what happen in chapter 214?

The story was suddenly twisted in a weird way that i do not expect. 0_o

I still feel shocked from KJ work this week, the only thing is don't know if it is a good or a bad thing

ANother week to find out -__-

-Ajax-

2007-02-24, 17:29

It always feels like we're waiting for that one all important chapter. :rolleyes: lol, until next week

Marsala

2007-02-24, 17:47

Any1 of you made the right guess about what would happen in chapter 214?

The story was suddenly twisted in a weird way that i do not expect. 0_o

I still feel shocked from KJ work this week, the only thing is don't know if it is a good or a bad thing

Another week to find out -__-

I was totally shocked, too. I thought that we would get more setup for the DVD filming instead of being plunged right into it with a shocking revelation.

SilverHead

2007-02-25, 19:17

I dont know if its just me but I saw the anime and now Im following the manga because I couldnt wait for season 3 to come out (such a SR addict) .... and I read all the chapters from 1 to 213.... and I just can't tell how it will finish and when ! lol

Actually... sometimes when I read mangas, after a couple of chapters I can tell how it's gonna end and approximatly when... but the problem with School Rumble is that I dont have a single clue.... there is too much disturbance in the entire serie.

On one side we had and STILL got the dumb tenma looking over Karasuma and I really hope she'll confess soon because I really can't stand this situation. Yes or NO but get over it !

On the other side, as MUCH as I like him, we got the *dumb* Harima always and always and always as addict as he was at the beginning about Tenma... look at the situation like a man dude. She loves someone else since what ? 2-3 years at least !!! get over it and start looking elsewhere ! lol

On my favorite side, we got Eri-chan. What the *** is happening to her.... she is making so much efforts to get close to harima that actually its starting to get on my nerves that this guy doesnt even see it ! I would gladly open my arms to her.

And Yakumo... I dont know if its just me... but she's always the same. Always thinking about Harima but never do anything about it. I know why because I read the manga and yeah she's in total love with her sister blablabla... blablabla... but she really should sit and think about what she really wants and dont change your mind every 5 seconds.

But guys... this is really getting on my nerves ! LOL

Im starting to think that the only characters having a brain in this entire serie is :
Akira and Eri.

I dont say that to blame the serie by the way... hell nooo... because thats my favorite serie by the way, Im a total addict to it... its just that I can't follow KJ reasoning... and its actually getting me mad ! lol

You know what I would like to see the best ?
- Tenma confession to Karasuma. Karasuma is willing to try it and they are going out. They kiss somewhere and Harima sees it ! END of Tenma-Karasuma-Harima saga.

Youpi ! Happy turning events for me !
Let's make some place to Eri-chan please god ! Im sooooo waiting for the day that Harima will see her feelings. grrrrr
lol

:P sorry guys, lol

Decagon

2007-02-26, 01:44

-Ajax-

2007-02-26, 09:55

Hahaha! You guys see a harsh road ahead for flaggers, I see a chance for another onigiri manga-drawing crunch session! C'mon. The SR glass is always half full :eyespin: . And if Yakumo doesn't come around this time, then there probably really are two choices left...

Seeing as how Tenma once again is the one that was helping him with the manga, i advise you to refrain from holding your breath. :rolleyes:

Witacume

2007-02-26, 10:20

well the way I see it. This is the last chance for Yakumo to take stab at things. While Flag seems to have train wreck on their hand but may not all together bad. I guess we just have to wait and see what happens next week. I holding my breath for the end of Flag which probably won't happen but i have faith! I guess thats all i have =X.

kenjiharima

2007-02-26, 11:58

Seems like Harima loss his bad ass powers. Even Suga and Imadori can hold him down now XD. Sheesh!!! At least his still 100% indestructable.

It's Flag vs Odou now, since Bloody Mary has been burried. As for Onigiri, dunno yet...let's wait for more chapters. 7 days is a B!TCH :heh:

But everything is wroth the wait it as long as the Sukuran chapters are THIS GOOD! :heh:

-Ajax-

2007-02-26, 12:04

Seems like Harima loss his bad ass powers. Even Suga and Imadori can hold him down now XD. Sheesh!!! At least his still 100% indestructable.

Agreed. Wheres the hurricane kick!!? :heh:

It's Flag vs Odou now, since Bloody Mary has been burried. As for Onigiri, dunno yet...let's wait for more chapters. 7 days is a B!TCH :heh:

It is Flag and Odou now, Onigiri is all but buried. It would take one hell of a revival for that to come back. :rolleyes: Especially since the only thing that Yakumo had (manga helper) has now been taken over by Tenma.

But everything is wroth the wait it as long as the Sukuran chapters are THIS GOOD! :heh:

Agreed. :heh:

SilverHead

2007-02-26, 14:32

Flag VS Odou.......... FIGHT !

Can't wait for the other chapters :P

Matt Soulblade

2007-02-27, 00:15

-Ajax-

2007-02-27, 00:51

I third that. We need to either see the badass delinquent back, or some upgraded Cool-mode Harima with a new haircut :)

Id like clean-shaven Harima back, he looked cooler that way. :heh:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Cavalier_beo/HarimaSuit.jpg

Swampstorm

2007-02-27, 19:56

These replies seem to be more surprising than the chapter itself. :heh:

The real danger for Flag was not in the manga shredding, but rather in Harima's response to Eri's question.

Eri didn't follow Akira's script. Originally, she is supposed to just chase Dr. Harima and Tenma, his android. As Fuyuki notes, Eri instead changes the script by asking Harima to choose between his work and Tenma.

Eri knows that the manga script is very important to him, and she confirms it from his reaction. By asking Harima to choose, she indirectly tries to find out the answer to the question that was bothering her in the last chapter - whether Harima is interested in Tenma. Harima, realizing that the scene is being acted out, attempts to call her bluff. Harima's response gives confirmation to Eri's question.

Had things just stopped there, Flag would be in fairly serious trouble. However, we get two further plot developments. First, in keeping with the role, Eri rips the script. Secondly, as Tougou notes, the movie takes a turn to become a love story between Harima and Tenma, with Eri as the villain. Both of these potential plot strings have their advantages.

Let's take a look at the consequences.

1) Movie - The movie has shifted into the scenario that was suggested and discussed last chapter. The inclusion of Tenma as the heroine for a love story provides some fairly good incentives for Harima to actively participate, unlike his involvement in the last chapter. In addition, Eri is forced into the conflict that Akira had foreshadowed in Ch.213. Either way, this is a pretty good setup for more unscripted events to occur.

2) Manga - The destruction of the manga itself has more of an indirect effect than a direct one. Harima is still set on winning over Tenma, and he still bears plenty of prejudice against Eri. Given his response to Eri's question, I really doubt that he can hurt her any further, at this point.

For that matter, this isn't the first time that we've seen this sort of thing happen. Tenma destroyed Harima's manga during the sleepover arc. Harima destroyed Tenma's curry plate a little while before Christmas. Eri cut Harima's beard. Harima confessed to Eri while Tae was clinging to him. None of these events cause permanent damage - they're just a means of setting up temporary conflicts that allow the relationships to grow stronger and deeper.

Let's get to the indirect effects. Flag's main weakness was that Eri has always been kept out of the loop regarding Harima's primary interests. This chapter sets her up to discover both. While Eri doesn't currently know what she's destroyed, she's almost certain to find out within a few chapters. She already knows that it's very important to him - that in itself is bound to make her curious.

There's one more potential effect that could result from this, and a few of you are very close to the mark on this one. Manga writing scenes classically belong to Onigiri. After around Ch.149, Harima started writing manga on his own. In Ch. 207, Harima requests that Yakumo write manga with him, for the first time since the Sleepover/Omiai arc, only for her to pass the baton off to Tenma. The timing of this switch strikes me as rather convenient, but more on that later.

Since that time, we've seen Harima write manga with Tenma twice. The first time is a required scene that takes place in Ch.207, to show the switch take place. The second time is in this chapter, which is necessary to allow for the destruction of the script.

There's usually a time constraint on these manga submissions - so this may or may not play a part here. Now, while this may just be a setup for more Harima/Tenma manga writing, he'll definitely have to find a way to make up for that lost time - either by working harder, or getting more help.

One possibility, of course, is to reintroduce Yakumo, as Decagon suggested. At the same time, though, it seems awfully convoluted to have Yakumo pass the job off to Tenma, only to be reintroduced into the picture later. It also breaks the connection between the manga and the movie - both would have to be run as two independant plot strings.

The other possibility would be to introduce in someone else in, such that the movie and manga plot strings remain intertwined.

@wontaek's refutation from earlier:
I'm really not sure what evidence you're basing your points on. If you're referring to Volume 3's report cards, the difference between the two is a single grade point, and both are considered to be at least "very good". Also, don't forget that Eri is a genius when it comes to mastering skills (outside of domestic tasks), when she has some guidance - she's perfectly capable of developing her abilities even further.

But setting that aside, there's much more involved than the skill area that you were referring to. Out of all the reviews that Harima recieves during the Sleepover/Omiai arc, there's only one character who has just the right critical eye to see through to Harima's real weakness. If Harima is going to be successful, he needs more than just compliance or encouragement - he needs someone to challenge him to new heights.

I like Evil Eri. A healthy dose of tsun is important, from time to time.

Birthday wishes go out to Eri, whose birthday is on Feb 28.

Marsala

2007-02-27, 22:15

Great analysis, Swampstorm. I agree with almost all of it.

My one minor nitpick is that Eri tearing the manuscript doesn't quite fit her original role, since in Akira's script Evil Queen Eri-jou wanted to steal the designs for her own purposes. Eri tearing them was probably a spur of the moment reaction to Harima choosing Tenma. However, tearing the designs is still villainous, so it can be played as Eri-jou choosing to hurt the hero over her own plans - which does fit Eri's improvised, Green Goblinesque sadistic choice given to Harima.

-Ajax-

2007-02-27, 23:49

lol can't go wrong with Swamp's analysis, always a good read.

wontaek

2007-02-28, 00:54

@wontaek's refutation from earlier:
I'm really not sure what evidence you're basing your points on. If you're referring to Volume 3's report cards, the difference between the two is a single grade point, and both are considered to be at least "very good". Also, don't forget that Eri is a genius when it comes to mastering skills (outside of domestic tasks), when she has some guidance - she's perfectly capable of developing her abilities even further.

But setting that aside, there's much more involved than the skill area that you were referring to. Out of all the reviews that Harima recieves during the Sleepover/Omiai arc, there's only one character who has just the right critical eye to see through to Harima's real weakness. If Harima is going to be successful, he needs more than just compliance or encouragement - he needs someone to challenge him to new heights.

I like Evil Eri. A healthy dose of tsun is important, from time to time.

Birthday wishes go out to Eri, whose birthday is on Feb 28.

Well, Eri may learn to draw well enough, but I doubt she is interested in drawing mangas, right now. As you have mentioned, we can reasonably say that Eri is the main person trying to upset the status quo in the School Rumble series, and I believe she can do it better by finding other ways to interact with Harima outside the set pattern of assisting of manga that was the preferred route of Tsukamoto sisters.

As far as Harima's reaction, I have a hunch he might control himself since his actions are being filmed and he knows that.

Finally, I think Karasuma may be the one who can help Harima the most with the manga. Manga has long been the connection between Harima and Tsukamoto Sisters. Eri needs to break the mold and establish different connection with Harima.

Swampstorm

2007-02-28, 09:40

Well, Eri may learn to draw well enough, but I doubt she is interested in drawing mangas, right now.
You seem to know a surprising amount about what interests Eri and what doesn't, all of a sudden. Is there a reason why you're so insistent on shooting down the possibility, despite having no evidence at all to support your claims?

I think I can make a reasonably good guess. :heh:

As you have mentioned, we can reasonably say that Eri is the main person trying to upset the status quo in the School Rumble series, and I believe she can do it better by finding other ways to interact with Harima outside the set pattern of assisting of manga that was the preferred route of Tsukamoto sisters.
Eri has plenty of other ways as well. It's not like she'd be giving anything up by jumping into the fray. Don't you worry about that. ;)

If anything, that classic interaction needs to be revamped. In the right hands, it has potential to be much more than mere filler.

Keep in mind that Eri is the link between the movie and the manga. If these recent events hadn't happened, the manga and movie would need to be run as two separate story arcs, one after the other. This idea opens up lots of possibilities of intertwining the two plotlines, allowing them to cross reference each other.

Besides, if KJ ever decides to have Harima write the "School Rumble manga", neither Tsukamoto sister knows enough of the "big picture" to provide the necessary information.

Finally, I think Karasuma may be the one who can help Harima the most with the manga. Manga has long been the connection between Harima and Tsukamoto Sisters. Eri needs to break the mold and establish different connection with Harima.
We can't have her treading on their turf, after all. :rolleyes:

wontaek

2007-02-28, 15:43

You seem to know a surprising amount about what interests Eri and what doesn't, all of a sudden. Is there a reason why you're so insistent on shooting down the possibility, despite having no evidence at all to support your claims?

I think I can make a reasonably good guess. :heh:

Eri has plenty of other ways as well. It's not like she'd be giving anything up by jumping into the fray. Don't you worry about that. ;)

If anything, that classic interaction needs to be revamped. In the right hands, it has potential to be much more than mere filler.

Keep in mind that Eri is the link between the movie and the manga. If these recent events hadn't happened, the manga and movie would need to be run as two separate story arcs, one after the other. This idea opens up lots of possibilities of intertwining the two plotlines, allowing them to cross reference each other.

Besides, if KJ ever decides to have Harima write the "School Rumble manga", neither Tsukamoto sister knows enough of the "big picture" to provide the necessary information.

We can't have her treading on their turf, after all. :rolleyes:

The problem of manga and Eri is that manga will remind Harima too much about Tsukamoto sisters. For Harima to finally break free from them, I think it is much better if Harima developes professional working relation with Karasuma, and spend his free time with Eri on other matters that won't remind him of Tenma. If Eri gets involved with manga, it is unavoidable Harima will keep comparing her to Tenma or Yakumo, and Eri will not be pleased about all those Tenma like characters Harima has drawn. Harima needs to generate new model for his heroines, and I think a professional like Karasuma may be of more help to him at this point in Harima's manga career, than Eri who can be the basis of the new model, provided Harima can overcome the bad moments between them.

SilverHead

2007-02-28, 16:49

wontaek

2007-02-28, 17:17

Yeah but the problem IS that if Harima works with Karasuma, he's gonna be in interaction with Tenma even if he dont want to because of Karasuma.

Let's not forget the fact that Tenma is still addict to that Karasuma.... she's gonna be around a lot if Harima gets with Karasuma and Harima wont be able to get her out from his mind.... thats the problem

AKIRA is the solution ! :D :heh:

Akira is ALWAYS the solution.

You are right. Problem with manga and Harima is that everything leads back to Tenma, whom he needs to avoid if he is to build a relationship with Eri. That is the main reason why I think Eri helping Harima with manga is not a good idea at current point. Much needs to happen before that becomes good possibility. I also think it is somewhat waste of resource Eri has, as she can bring so much into Harima's life outside the realm of manga.

Marsala

2007-02-28, 19:13

Problems with Eri helping Harima with the manga:

- Harima may dislike that Eri is cutting into his potential time with Tenma, or being a third wheel if Tenma is also there.

- Eri didn't think much of his manga when she read it back in 145 so she probably won't be impressed like Tenma has been. (In fairness, what we have seen of Harima's writing is pretty corny... but he keeps winning prizes.)

- Eri won't be encouraged if she recognizes Harima and Tenma's likenesses in the main characters.

- If spending more time together in potentially awkward situations was the key to progressing Harima and Eri's relationship, they would be married with three kids by now. So Eri won't necessarily benefit from helping Harima with the manga any more than Yakumo did. Eri

So there are a few problems and no obvious benefits. Eri helping Harima with the manga could still be important or positive, but not because of anything that is currently obvious.

Swampstorm

2007-02-28, 19:15

The problem of manga and Eri is that manga will remind Harima too much about Tsukamoto sisters. For Harima to finally break free from them, I think it is much better if Harima developes professional working relation with Karasuma, and spend his free time with Eri on other matters that won't remind him of Tenma. If Eri gets involved with manga, it is unavoidable Harima will keep comparing her to Tenma or Yakumo, and Eri will not be pleased about all those Tenma like characters Harima has drawn. Harima needs to generate new model for his heroines, and I think a professional like Karasuma may be of more help to him at this point in Harima's manga career, than Eri who can be the basis of the new model, provided Harima can overcome the bad moments between them.
The thing is, though, Flag can't just dodge the Oudou issue. To be successful, Flag has to directly clash with Oudou. A story where Harima simply drifts away from Tenma will always leave readers wondering "what if?" He's going to have to choose Eri over Tenma in order to really settle things.

Only the characters from Harima's first manga looked like Tenma. His heroine in Ch.142/143 actually had a closer resemblance to Eri, although his work was based on Karasuma's manga in that case. We don't really know anything about the manga he's currently working on - it might not even be a love story, for that matter.

Harima need not draw any comparisons to Tenma, in the suggested scenario. A lot of the situations in the story involve already involve obvious parallels between Tenma and Eri. If anything, they only serve to make it easier for Harima to mix up the two.

Yeah but the problem IS that if Harima works with Karasuma, he's gonna be in interaction with Tenma even if he dont want to because of Karasuma.

Let's not forget the fact that Tenma is still addict to that Karasuma.... she's gonna be around a lot if Harima gets with Karasuma and Harima wont be able to get her out from his mind.... thats the problem
I don't think that we'll see Karasuma until after the current Flag/Oudou situation stabilizes. Hanai disappeared soon after the Flag/Onigiri conflict in order to make Onigiri a suitable challenger, and Karasuma has done the same since the start of the Flag/Oudou clash.

Problem with manga and Harima is that everything leads back to Tenma, whom he needs to avoid if he is to build a relationship with Eri. That is the main reason why I think Eri helping Harima with manga is not a good idea at current point. Much needs to happen before that becomes good possibility.
Again, running from the problem won't solve anything. While the movie has the potential to affect Harima's point of view of Eri, the manga has the potential to affect Eri's point of view of Harima. Both characters can get some very important insights into each other from this, which will be important for the growth of their relationship.

Also, it would probably be necessary if Akira wants to work an evil -> good transition into the storyline.

I also think it is somewhat waste of resource Eri has, as she can bring so much into Harima's life outside the realm of manga.
She's not limited to one or the other. The more common ground that Eri and Harima find together, the stronger their relationship will become.

- Harima may dislike that Eri is cutting into his potential time with Tenma, or being a third wheel if Tenma is also there.
She doesn't have to work with him, to help or to make an impact. Do you remember when Harima tried to fix Karasuma's manga, after destroying it?

- Eri didn't think much of his manga when she read it back in 145 so she probably won't be impressed like Tenma has been. (In fairness, what we have seen of Harima's writing is pretty corny... but he keeps winning prizes.)
He won only one prize.

From the conversation in Ch.143, we know that Harima's revision of Karasuma's manga is his first real attempt at a romance manga, since he confesses to being unfamiliar with it. That indicates that Harima's prize winning skills are not in the area of romance.

The manga which he received criticism for was his romance manga. Eri is critical because she's really in to this sort of thing (think back to her comments on Karen's haircut just after the summer break, and her monologue on Harima after the Sports Festival dance). Her insistence on pointing out flaws in the story shows that she is interested in the subject matter - otherwise she would be more likely to just dismiss it.

The other two individuals who comment are Mikoto, who, according to the side chapter on her date with Asou, falls asleep after just 10 minutes of picking up a good romantic story, and Tenma, whose ideas about winning over someone's love are wacky, to say the least.

Eri won't be encouraged if she recognizes Harima and Tenma's likenesses in the main characters.
That was only for his very first manga.

- If spending more time together in potentially awkward situations was the key to progressing Harima and Eri's relationship, they would be married with three kids by now.
It doesn't have to be awkward, and she doesn't even have to spend time with Harima in the process. It's much more important for Harima to observe her and reflect, than it is for him to interact with her, in this sort of case.

Adam E

2007-02-28, 20:24

Eri tearing them was probably a spur of the moment reaction to Harima choosing Tenma.

I think Eri destroying the manga is a slightly premeditated action done to judge Harima’s opinion of her.

“Decision -> Cut -> Judgement?”

Eri confirms that the manga is important to Harima, then Harima “confirms” that Tenma is more important to him than the manga, but Eri still doesn’t know how she fits into all this, so she needs a way of putting herself into the inequality Tenma>manga. Hence, tearing the manga into two and using his reaction to judge his opinion of her.

Eri’s face doesn’t have any expression on it, which should be present if she’s acting or it’s a spur of the moment reaction. She should have a malicious expression if she’s acting, like when she’s threatening to burn the manga. If Eri is reacting to Harima choosing Tenma in the moment, she should have a surprised, angry, and/or sorrowful expression.

However, tearing the designs is still villainous, so it can be played as Eri-jou choosing to hurt the hero over her own plans which does fit Eri's improvised, Green Goblinesque sadistic choice given to Harima.

How I wish that Spider-man wasn’t capable of choosing both in that movie. It’s much more interesting when villains that force heroes to choose like that without allowing loopholes, like Eri’s ultimatum. Harima thought he had a loophole, that choosing Tenma would enable him to have Tenma and his manga, but, unfortunately for Harima, he’s not Spiderman.

I like how Harima choice of having Tenma and his manga connects to the previous chapter, where the message was to choose both options if you want both. Harima is given a representation of two apparent polar options through Eri’s ultimatum, mirroring the two bowling pins representing Eri’s choices in Chapter 213; that Eri was able to have both while Harima gets denied one choice bodes well for Flag.

Harima needs to generate new model for his heroines, and I think a professional like Karasuma may be of more help to him at this point in Harima's manga career, than Eri who can be the basis of the new model, provided Harima can overcome the bad moments between them.

Harima asked Karasuma for some help in Chapter 201 and got shot down, so I doubt Karasuma is even an option for solving Harima's manga woes.

Akira is ALWAYS the solution.

True, but I prefer authors that are capable of not relying on broken characters like Akira to solve seemingly unsolvable problems in their stories instead of actually developing their characters.

Problems with Eri helping Harima with the manga:

- Harima may dislike that Eri is cutting into his potential time with Tenma, or being a third wheel if Tenma is also there.

Not much Harima can do if Tenma is the one that wants Eri to help him.

- Eri didn't think much of his manga when she read it back in 145 so she probably won't be impressed like Tenma has been. (In fairness, what we have seen of Harima's writing is pretty corny... but he keeps winning prizes.)

Guilt on Eri’s part for destroying Harima’s manga (possibly bolstered by Eri remembering her critique in Chapter 145), coupled with a desire to help Harima would be enough to motivate her to help Harima.

- Eri won't be encouraged if she recognizes Harima and Tenma's likenesses in the main characters.

Only a problem if Harima is still drawing the characters like Harima and Tenma, which we don’t know.

- If spending more time together in potentially awkward situations was the key to progressing Harima and Eri's relationship, they would be married with three kids by now. So Eri won't necessarily benefit from helping Harima with the manga any more than Yakumo did.

The key is Harima getting over his prejudice of Eri, most recently seen in Chapter 214 when he thinks “I can’t let Ojou break us apart no matter what she wants to do!” even though he realizes that “useless Ojou is acting” on the previous page. Eri choosing to go help him would contradict his image of her, addressing the key problem facing Flag.

Sakuyakun

2007-03-03, 08:58

Chapter 215 is out...What the hell just happened?

Streetor

2007-03-03, 10:05

Chapter 215 is out...What the hell just happened?

Bascially it shows that Yakumo didn't slap Eri just because Eri insulted her sister. She slapped her also because she knew deep down Eri liked Harima and the feelings that Yakumo bottled are starting to overflow and come out so she sees Eri as a rival.

This chapter confirms that Yakumo is in love with Harima as well and she doesn't know what to do because she's never experienced these feelings before.

Also, Eri still hasn't given up either.

Sakuyakun

2007-03-03, 10:33

Just read the scans now. Indeed, this confirms Yakumo's feelings for Harima.

Forever

2007-03-03, 10:36

In comes the reset for Eri. On comes the revelation from yakumo. What can be better for onigiri. Looks like next chapter will be yakumo helping harima from the setback and back to working on manga time.

-Ajax-

2007-03-03, 10:40

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-03, 10:43

Thanks Townsocks!

Hmm...This chapter does indeed affirm the fact that Yakumo's slap came for her sister and also for herself. Unfortunate, Yakumo-haters, but it seems she did it not out of spite. :heh:

I would say this chapter at least explained the reasons behind her shameful action of hitting a senpai by openly admitting it as unbecoming of her (even though she does try to rationalise her actions a little later, which I believe was quite understandable). Another more emo Yakumo in this chapter as well, and more revelations about her:

1) She knows more than she's letting on, obviously already knowing about the two girls involved with Harima now (Tenma and Eri).

2) The implication that she actually has feelings for Harima. As much as she cared for her sister, I don't think the 'pain' she felt on her realisation about Eri's feelings were for her sister.

This certainly looks like development for her. Whether it's really good development for Onigiri, though....I won't keep my hopes up just yet.

That being said, poor Harima. :heh: It always seems as though he keeps getting into sticky situations nowadays. ;)

-Ajax-

2007-03-03, 10:58

I think Harima's new acting career will bring some laughs to counteract all this melancholy, hey he did a good job when they played "The Three Who Were Slashed" at Eri's house. lol

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-03, 11:04

I think Harima's new acting career will bring some laughs to counteract all this melancholy, hey he did a good job when they played "The Three Who Were Slashed" at Eri's house. lol

Well, it's a 'latent' talent he has discovered, anyway. :heh: The last chapter had me cracking up a little from how nonchalantly Eri tore up his important work, and it seemed even stranger still to have him immediately make up his mind to become an actor all of a sudden just because of that setback. :heh:

In any case, this might just herald the coming of the new 'James Dean', anyway. ;)

-Ajax-

2007-03-03, 11:11

Well, it's a 'latent' talent he has discovered, anyway. :heh: The last chapter had me cracking up a little from how nonchalantly Eri tore up his important work, and it seemed even stranger still to have him immediately make up his mind to become an actor all of a sudden just because of that setback. :heh:

In any case, this might just herald the coming of the new 'James Dean', anyway. ;)

Not the first time she has had a blank face while doing something like that.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Cavalier_beo/SR%20Funny%20Clips/th_sr-v3p032.png (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Cavalier_beo/SR%20Funny%20Clips/sr-v3p032.png)

Tae sensei likes Hario~ :heh:

KaneDragon

2007-03-03, 11:52

Hehe, Eri seems to have taken a liking to her new Evil Overlord costume. With Harima suddenly set on becoming an actor, could this be a sign of a cinematic rematch? ^^

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-03, 12:10

Hehe, Eri seems to have taken a liking to her new Evil Overlord costume. With Harima suddenly set on becoming an actor, could this be a sign of a cinematic rematch? ^^

Unbelievable...Only a few dozen chapters ago I would have only entertained that thought in one of Harima's imaginary manga. Looks like it's more believable now. :heh:

Hmm...Eri as a dominatrix...:eyespin:

Freeter

2007-03-03, 12:11

Beautiful chapter. Lots of revelations about Yakumo, and it FINALLY puts the naysayers to rest about her feelings for Harima. Though whether this spells the end for Onigiri could very well depend on Sara (she can either encourage her to go for it like before or help her move on).

Personally, I hope she goes for it. Then the rumble can truly be on :D

Adam E

2007-03-03, 12:48

Well, this chapter reinforces my reasons for believing that Yakumo should definitely not become the main character; she’s just too angsty, and the series becomes way too melodramatic whenever it focuses on her since she seems incapable of playing both serious and comedic roles. Compare this to Eri, who makes a serious statement about her goal at the end, but manages to make it funny.

Anyways, it was nice to see Yakumo showing some regret for slapping Eri. Although, I think she’s confessing to the wrong person in Sara; all her problems seem to stem from her problems with Tenma, so that’s the one she needs to tell this to if she’s going to get maximum development as a character.

Just read the scans now. Indeed, this confirms Yakumo's feelings for Harima.

Nope, they're still unconfirmed. We don't know why Eri loving Harima hurts Yakumo so much since it could also be due to her thinking that Eri and Harima are a couple (Chapter 211, she hears about Harima being on a “date“ with Eri), which goes against Yakumo's view of an unchanging Harima and apparent desire for Tenma to be with Harima. As for what she’s bottled up, Yakumo says she’s buried many things, which is vague and can’t be used to conclude that she’s burying feelings for Harima.

Yakumo is implied to have feelings for Harima in Chapter 215, but that’s nothing new.

In comes the reset for Eri.

Eri confirms that she still hasn’t given up, that she hasn’t changed her mind about “friends first,” and Harima has committed himself to the movie, indicating that there’s going to be more Flag chapters in the near future. How is that a reset for Eri?

On comes the revelation from yakumo. What can be better for onigiri.

Uh, Yakumo reveals that she had a bad reason for slapping Eri, which isn’t really a good thing for Onigiri. Then, Harima decides to work as an actor instead of a mangaka, which also isn’t really a good thing for Onigiri since that's about the only thing connecting Harima and Yakumo. Then, Yakumo heard bad things about Eri again, making it likely she’d feel justified in antagonizing Eri again, which also isn’t really a good thing for Onigiri. Then, Yakumo confirms that she’s acting based on what she thinks is best for her sister instead of what her sister wants, which is bad for Yakumo, and Onigiri by extension.

Looks like next chapter will be yakumo helping harima from the setback and back to working on manga time.

No, it looks like the next chapter will go back to the filming. Did you miss the part at the beginning about Harima deciding to become an actor?

Also, what’s with the belief of Onigiri fans that more manga making = more development for Onigiri? It’s clear that making manga with Harima hasn’t changed his opinion of Yakumo and has become a stagnant subplot, and that they’d need to start doing things outside the manga in order to progress the relationship.

This certainly looks like development for her. Whether it's really good development for Onigiri, though....I won't keep my hopes up just yet

Well, in a love triangle in a romantic comedy, physically attacking a rival for having feelings for the guy is one of the worst things a girl can do, while sacrificing feelings in order to make a guy happy with the rival is one of the best things a girl can do. So, Yakumo has done one of the worst things she could do by attacking Eri, while Eri has done one of the best things by sacrificing her feelings in the play arc.

Yakumo “sacrificing” her feelings in Chapter 206 is not good, though, since part of it stemmed from a clear desire for Harima not to be with Eri, and, by doing so, she also betrays her sister.

Then, there’s the timing of this development, which is terrible to say the least. If Yakumo actually does like Harima now, it’s much too late in the series. Also, if she does become a rival for Eri, she’ll be becoming one immediately after Tenma stopped being an effective rival for Eri, indicating that she’s going to be used to develop Flag. It’s too convenient for Flag for a new obstacle to appear right after the old one disappeared.

Finally, but not least, is the overwhelming presence of Flag. Eri’s feelings for Harima have been considerably developed, and Harima’s feelings for Eri’s have been slowly changing throughout the series, so it simply would not make any sense for Kobayashi to make Yakumo and Harima love each other out of the blue and disregard all the development Flag has gone through.

Anyways, I think you have good reason not to get your hopes up just yet.

Well, it's a 'latent' talent he has discovered, anyway. :heh: The last chapter had me cracking up a little from how nonchalantly Eri tore up his important work, and it seemed even stranger still to have him immediately make up his mind to become an actor all of a sudden just because of that setback.

Nah, it’s pretty normal for Harima to disregard his dreams whenever Tenma compliments him for something.

Not the first time she has had a blank face while doing something like that.

Eri has a vein throbbing on her head in that picture, showing us that she’s angry there.

FINALLY puts the naysayers to rest about her feelings for Harima.

Not quite.

The Small One

2007-03-03, 13:31

Freeter

2007-03-03, 13:36

Not quite.

Unbelievable....still doubting even after all this time. You're really just turning a blind eye now, since she's practically confessing at this point.

As for what she’s bottled up, Yakumo says she’s buried many things, which is vague and can’t be used to conclude that she’s burying feelings for Harima.

Of course it can. She's jealous of both Eri and Tenma but doesn't want to be hostile towards them (for the former, she tried to justify the slap as simply protecting her sister, and the latter needs no explanation). At the same time she wants to be closer to Harima but is still afraid of being rejected (and now that he apparently wants to be an actor, the manga connection will be lost). She's hurt and confused, which is precisely why she spills everything to Sara since she has no one else to turn to.

If it really was just for the sake of an ideal, she would've said so outright ("I thought he'd always be so-and-so, now he's like this..." or something to that degree).

-Ajax-

2007-03-03, 13:44

Eri has a vein throbbing on her head in that picture, showing us that she’s angry there.

Ah yea I know that makes the largest difference between the two but her face is still blank, that was my only point lol

About this acting: I think this is just a short stage for Harima, because Tenma said it... like the time when she told him he would look better without Beard... he shaved it, but after a while he grew it back, because that's who he is. I guess in about 6-10 chapters his "career" is over.

I can guarantee you his "acting" career won't last very long.

Yakumo beeing in love seems so out-of-character for her... :eyebrow: If she is also going to interfere now, I can abandon all hopes for this manga to end soon. :(

Exactly. Unless it will be used as a plot device to somehow drive either Onigiri or Flag.

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 13:55

Excellent, excellent chapter. :)

Before we jump to any conclusions, let's take a look at the sequence of events.

b29, p.1 - Yakumo walks back after the Cultural Festival Play, where she fought with Eri.
"Hey Iori, do you think that Sawachika-sempai loves Harima-san? But she's always harsh around Harima-san, and it's not like we have a special relationship. It's fine like this, right?"

Yakumo suspects that Eri likes Harima. She recognizes that if Eri does love Harima, then she would have caused Eri a lot of suffering over the past little while. However, she dismisses the thought, rationalizing that Eri probably doesn't love Harima. The words "It's fine like this, right?" are a means by which Yakumo justifies her actions to herself.

206, p.4 - Yakumo denies having feelings for Harima. This could mean one of two things - either she really doesn't like him, or she likes him and she's hiding it.

206, p.5,6 - Yakumo becomes aware of the fact that Eri and Harima may be getting closer, and she actively takes steps to prevent the two dolls from being placed together. This means one of two things - either she doesn't want Eri to end up with Harima because she's jealous (ie. wants him for herself), or she doesn't want Eri to end up with Harima because she wants to see Harima paired up with someone else.

Note her words in Ch. 206, p.7,8:
"He's not the type of person who would change his mind."
"He's not so careless as to fall for someone just like that."

And when asked about whether she's been confessed to, she says "no" with a smile - to show that she's pleased about the fact that he hasn't gone after her - pleased with the fact that he is living up to that ideal.

206, p.9, she places the Harima doll and the Tenma doll together on her own. This indicates that her desire to see Harima and Eri separated had nothing to do with jealousy - it's simply because she wanted him to end up with her sister. It makes no sense for Yakumo to want to end up with Harima and then to actively try to set him up with someone else.

In Ch. 207, Yakumo sets her plan in action by having Tenma write manga with Harima. That was the same plan that set up for the climax in Ch. 212.

Now, let's take a look at this chapter. Since Ch. 212, we've seen no signs of remorse from Yakumo, despite her sister's pleading. The trigger that actually makes her recognize her wrongdoing is Harima's explanation in p.5. Eri's plan to make Harima choose clearly establishes Eri's feelings regarding Harima. With that, Yakumo's lingering doubt in b29 has finally been confirmed.

Note the side caption on that page: "Yakumo, can't go back now."

Now that Yakumo knows about Eri's feelings for Harima, she can't go back to the old way of thinking in b29. She now knows for sure the full extent of what she's done in the past - there's no turning back.

Now look carefully at the words on p.9: "I know Sawachika-sempai is in love with Harima, and it hurts me inside so badly."

This is not the same as: "I know Sawachika-sempai and Harima-san are in love with each other, and it hurts me inside so badly."

Yakumo isn't sad because Harima is being taken away from her by Eri. Rather, the sudden realization that she has in this chapter about Eri's feelings for Harima are the cause of her feelings of guilt.

Then:

"I've buried so many things inside of me, and it's all building up. I'm becoming a terrible person."

What has she buried? Feelings? No, because having feelings for Harima wouldn't make her a terrible person. What else could you bury and have build up, making you feel like a terrible person?

Guilt.

Guilt that she's held inside since b29. All throughout the manga, she's constantly interfered with Eri's relationship with Harima. She undid Eri's sewed gift to Harima. She interfered in Eri's play. She constantly pushed Tenma to be with Harima, knowing that Tenma wasn't interested. All this she did unknowingly, but with a lurking doubt deep down that she may be hurting Eri.

Ch.215, p.8: Yakumo tells us why she slapped Eri - it was entirely for the sake of her sister. But why does she add "That's what I thought when I slapped her, but... I was wrong."? The only thing that has changed since then is that Yakumo now knows Eri's feelings. She now knows the conflict that was going through Eri's head - she now knows that Eri really loves Harima.

Note that she confirms that the phone call in Ch.211 had nothing to do with the slap. Therefore, there is no jealousy towards Eri involved here.

Remember how I was talking about the idea of Yakumo redeeming herself? This is the very first step. It's now her responsibility to make amends with Eri. With this chapter, she can no longer be used as a plot device used to interfere with Flag - she's a full character in her own right.

I find some of the earlier remarks to be somewhat bizarre. Here we have a character who has just admitted to having a lot of guilt because of constantly hurting someone else (unintentionally, of course) over a period of months, and the first thing on some people's minds is: "Yeah! Does this mean she'll step in and interfere some more?" As p.5's side comment notes, there's no turning back now. Now that she knows that Eri loves Harima, she cannot interfere with a good conscience. It would undo everything that elevated her character in this chapter.

I've waited a really long time for this. It's kind of cathartic, really - she's been a real thorn in Eri's side for the past 100 chapters or so. It's a relief to see her finally 'fess up to everything that she's done - it shows, that despite all the trouble she's caused, she still was acting with good intentions. With a little luck, she may even make for a valuable ally for Flag. You know, I wonder... could this be that inroad into the manga writing thing that we've been looking for?

On another note, I really liked the conversation on the last page. It's good to see Akira talking a bit more freely: "Do you have to give up love and friends to be a devil woman?" Eri has this habit of deliberately building walls around herself. Flag still has a lot of work to do.

Adam E

2007-03-03, 14:13

I just read the chapter...
Somehow it's pretty stupid. What's with the first scene?
Eri didn't destroy the manga, she just ripped it into two clear pieces. Everyone with a Scotch tape could have fixed this in a few minutes, but Harima goes to the editor with empty hands? :eyebrow::twitch:
Besides: Even if it were lost, shouldn't he be able to reproduce his work?

Excellent point. In fact, isn't scotch tape used to fix up his manuscript way back near the beginning of the series?

Oh well, you can’t expect characters to be smart in stories like these.

About this acting: I think this is just a short stage for Harima, because Tenma said it... like the time when she told him he would look better without Beard... he shaved it, but after a while he grew it back, because that's who he is. I guess in about 6-10 chapters his "career" is over.

Harima shaved his beard in Chapter 66, and "grew" it back in Chapter 161...that wasn't really a short stage.

Anyways, I think the acting gig won’t last long, either, since it seems like it’s just going to be for the story arc.

Unbelievable....still doubting even after all this time. You're really just turning a blind eye now, since she's practically confessing at this point.

Practically confessing and actually confessing feelings are two different matters. One implies feelings, and one confirms feelings.

Of course it can. She's jealous of both Eri and Tenma but doesn't want to be hostile towards them (for the former, she tried to justify the slap as simply protecting her sister, and the latter needs no explanation). At the same time she wants to be closer to Harima but is still afraid of being rejected (and now that he apparently wants to be an actor, the manga connection will be lost). She's hurt and confused, which is precisely why she spills everything to Sara since she has no one else to turn to.

No, it can't be used to confirm she has feelings for him so long as there's evidence indicating likewise.

If it really was just for the sake of an ideal, she would've said so outright ("I thought he'd always be so-and-so, now he's like this..." or something to that degree).

Yeah, and if she was bottling up romantic feelings for Harima, she should’ve said so outright, as well.

@Swampstorm: Nice use of logic; it makes the most sense to me, since Yakumo being in love suddenly seems to contradict how she’s been acting previously.

arias

2007-03-03, 15:24

I approve of the recent developments. :D

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 15:35

I approve of the recent developments. :D
I thought you were an Onigirist? No matter. Welcome to team Flag! ;)
Your timing couldn't be better. We've just finished signing up one Tsukamoto Yakumo, as a matter of fact.

Streetor

2007-03-03, 16:24

I thought you were an Onigirist? No matter. Welcome to team Flag! ;)
Your timing couldn't be better. We've just finished signing up one Tsukamoto Yakumo, as a matter of fact.

What? This chapter could be the catalyst of a huge onigiri push. I wouldn't get too cocky.

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 16:41

What? This chapter could be the catalyst of a huge onigiri push. I wouldn't get too cocky.
That was cocky? I'm sorry that you've taken offense to my words, then. :heh:

I was speaking honestly, though. I personally thought that this chapter was all about Yakumo finally recognizing all the trouble she's caused Eri over the past five months, and that she'd finally started to feel remorse. That's why I thought it to be rather absurd for people to be suggesting that she try to cause further problems for Eri, afterwards. It looks really bad on your character if you admit to feeling guilty and then go back and keep repeating your mistake. This apology has been a long time coming for Flaggers. As the chapter itself notes, she can't turn back, now. She has to make amends.

Every chapter can be a catalyst for a huge Onigiri push, in theory, but then again, the same holds true for any other faction. If Yakumo pursues Onigiri at this point, though, she turns those tears that she shed into a lie.

By the way, did you miss this post?
In comes the reset for Eri. On comes the revelation from yakumo. What can be better for onigiri. Looks like next chapter will be yakumo helping harima from the setback and back to working on manga time.

You must have had to swim through an ocean of Onigiri cockiness just to get to my post. I feel tired just thinking about all that effort. :heh:

All that I've done is to set the record straight.

Freeter

2007-03-03, 16:43

And when asked about whether she's been confessed to, she says "no" with a smile - to show that she's pleased about the fact that he hasn't gone after her - pleased with the fact that he is living up to that ideal.

That panel was also paired with a concerned look from Sara, which casts some doubt as to whether Yakumo really was "pleased" with not being pursued by Harima.

It makes no sense for Yakumo to want to end up with Harima and then to actively try to set him up with someone else.

She resigned herself to thinking that Harima would never go for her (the denial and false smile were indicators of such), so she wanted to absolve those unrequited feelings by seeing his love for Tenma fulfilled.

Now look carefully at the words on p.9: "I know Sawachika-sempai is in love with Harima, and it hurts me inside so badly."

This is not the same as: "I know Sawachika-sempai and Harima-san are in love with each other, and it hurts me inside so badly."

Yakumo isn't sad because Harima is being taken away from her by Eri. Rather, the sudden realization that she has in this chapter about Eri's feelings for Harima are the cause of her feelings of guilt.

Perhaps she's always known, especially since Eri's so easy to read. It's just now that she has to come to terms with it.

What else could you bury and have build up, making you feel like a terrible person?

Guilt.

Guilt that she's held inside since b29. All throughout the manga, she's constantly interfered with Eri's relationship with Harima. She undid Eri's sewed gift to Harima. She interfered in Eri's play. She constantly pushed Tenma to be with Harima, knowing that Tenma wasn't interested. All this she did unknowingly, but with a lurking doubt deep down that she may be hurting Eri.

The undoing of the sewed gift was unintentional (Harima's miscommunication is at fault for that one), and she apologized for the interference of the play at the dance and cleared the air with Eri. Holding those against her is unfair.

However, the pairing of HarimaXTenma was done solely at her discretion, and that she can be held accountable for. She knew that doing so would hurt Eri, but she went through with it anyway.

Ch.215, p.8: Yakumo tells us why she slapped Eri - it was entirely for the sake of her sister. But why does she add "That's what I thought when I slapped her, but... I was wrong."?

Because she despised Eri for actively pursuing Harima when she couldn't and was looking for a means to unleash that hatred, and she comes to the realization of this ugly truth. I too initially thought she was only protecting her sister, but now I can understand your disgust over her actions in that chapter.

Note that she confirms that the phone call in Ch.211 had nothing to do with the slap. Therefore, there is no jealousy towards Eri involved here.

But did Yakumo even know that Eri was with Harima at the time? I dont recall Tenma ever telling her such.

I find some of the earlier remarks to be somewhat bizarre. Here we have a character who has just admitted to having a lot of guilt because of constantly hurting someone else (unintentionally, of course) over a period of months, and the first thing on some people's minds is: "Yeah! Does this mean she'll step in and interfere some more?" As p.5's side comment notes, there's no turning back now. Now that she knows that Eri loves Harima, she cannot interfere with a good conscience. It would undo everything that elevated her character in this chapter.

You center the guilt entirely around Eri (much like the rest of this manga), when it could also attribute to Yakumo's own selfish desires (which grotesquely materialized in the form of that slap). The side comment could mean that she has to be honest with herself and decide whether to truly pursue Harima or let him go completely. Sara will undoubtedly be a huge influence on that decision.

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 17:57

That panel was also paired with a concerned look from Sara, which casts some doubt as to whether Yakumo really was "pleased" with not being pursued by Harima.
Read the side panel: "Always... Forever." The only thing connecting that phrase (taken from her thoughts in the previous page) and the page that the side panel is on is Yakumo's response. The flowers and the contented look all tie in to that. She can find peace in the thought that he'll never pursue her, because he'll be the same - always... forever.

Sara's response shows surprise because up until then, she suspected that Yakumo had feelings for Harima - even as early as the start of that chapter. The confidence of Yakumo's reply contradicts Sara's original belief.

She resigned herself to thinking that Harima would never go for her (the denial and false smile were indicators of such), so she wanted to absolve those unrequited feelings by seeing his love for Tenma fulfilled.
You would have to first prove that she was in denial, though. In addition, we see no mention of absolving unrequited feelings. It's up to the author to demonstrate such ideas at the time.

Perhaps she's always known, especially since Eri's so easy to read. It's just now that she has to come to terms with it.
No difference. She's been running from the truth, either way.

The undoing of the sewed gift was unintentional (Harima's miscommunication is at fault for that one), and she apologized for the interference of the play at the dance and cleared the air with Eri. Holding those against her is unfair.
I'm not. I hold nothing against Yakumo, as of this chapter. Those feelings of remorse were all that I needed to see. I brought them up because b21 was the only mention that I could find on the subject, and it is related to those two incidents, and it occurs after the apology.

However, the pairing of HarimaXTenma was done solely at her discretion, and that she can be held accountable for. She knew that doing so would hurt Eri, but she went through with it anyway.
Well, she was evading the idea that Eri loved Harima all this time. Now that she's faced with it, that isn't really an issue.

Because she despised Eri for actively pursuing Harima when she couldn't and was looking for a means to unleash that hatred, and she comes to the realization of this ugly truth. I too initially thought she was only protecting her sister, but now I can understand your disgust over her actions in that chapter.
You know, it's kind of funny. About three chapters we were arguing the opposite sides. Now we've switched sides.

Ch.215, p.8: Yakumo gives us a big explanation on why she slapped Eri, and she finishes with "That's what I thought when I slapped her."

The slap isn't out of hatred for Eri. It was out of anger towards seeing Eri berate Tenma.

I don't have any disgust over her actions now that she admitted that she was wrong - I thought I made my views clear back in Ch. 212. You don't need to drag her name in the mud just to build a case for an interest on her side. :heh:

Either option doesn't help Onigiri. If the slap was out of anger for Harima and Eri being together, then there's no moral justification for the two to be together. If the slap was done to help Tenma, then she has no interest in Harima, but she's a good person. When faced with Scylla and Charybdis, why not choose Scylla? You don't get anything out of making a monster out of Yakumo, either way. :heh:

But did Yakumo even know that Eri was with Harima at the time? I dont recall Tenma ever telling her such.
At the start of Ch.211, Harima calls Yakumo asking her to send Tenma over to work on the manga. He then says that he wasn't able to get any work done because he spent the night with Eri. That's how Yakumo figures out that Tenma was still waiting - if she isn't with Eri, then she probably is outside of Eri's house.

The phone call didn't factor into Yakumo's explanation in this chapter, though.

You center the guilt entirely around Eri (much like the rest of this manga), when it could also attribute to Yakumo's own selfish desires (which grotesquely materialized in the form of that slap).
Context. Why would Yakumo start to feel selfish just now? She didn't feel remorse at the time of the slap.

Remember the trigger. Harima gave her the last piece of the puzzle, just now. Until then, she didn't understand Eri's motivations in that conversation - all she saw was Eri berating her sister.

The side comment could mean that she has to be honest with herself and decide whether to truly pursue Harima or let him go completely. Sara will undoubtedly be a huge influence on that decision.
Again, context. That page says nothing of her having an interest in Harima. The choice has to be made apparent to the viewers, at least.

Remember that Eri's interest in Harima wouldn't be a threat, even if Yakumo was interested. It would only be a problem if Harima reciprocates. So why would there be any need for jealousy?

-Ajax-

2007-03-03, 18:36

@ Swamp's analysis: Makes perfect sense to me. *thumbs up*

drowzyus

2007-03-03, 18:56

Flag ending is still possible but time is growing short... should be less then 40 days before *Torimaru* :D leaves...

(i know this might sound lame but what about the other characters? We havnt heard from souo, mikoto, sarah, etc... in such a long time :confused: )

Streetor

2007-03-03, 19:10

That was cocky? I'm sorry that you've taken offense to my words, then. :heh:

I was speaking honestly, though. I personally thought that this chapter was all about Yakumo finally recognizing all the trouble she's caused Eri over the past five months, and that she'd finally started to feel remorse. That's why I thought it to be rather absurd for people to be suggesting that she try to cause further problems for Eri, afterwards. It looks really bad on your character if you admit to feeling guilty and then go back and keep repeating your mistake. This apology has been a long time coming for Flaggers. As the chapter itself notes, she can't turn back, now. She has to make amends.

Every chapter can be a catalyst for a huge Onigiri push, in theory, but then again, the same holds true for any other faction. If Yakumo pursues Onigiri at this point, though, she turns those tears that she shed into a lie.

Just because she feels bad for what she did doesn't mean she has to make up for it. There is nothing in that chapter that shows that Yakumo is forcing herself to stand by as Eri pursues Harima. She is even asking Sara what she should do. I have a feeling Sara will nudge Yakumo into trying to get closer to Harima because she is that type of person.

There is no reason for Yakumo to make amends and the slap can frankly be taken care of by a simple apology.

The main point of the chapter is that Yakumo has finally realized her feelings. If Yakumo were to stand by even after all this, there would be no reason for the mangaka to make this chapter at all. He made it for a reason and this shows a change in Yakumo's personality and also in her attitude towards Harima. For her to not do anything after this realization would be turning the tears she shed into a lie.

taichikun14

2007-03-03, 20:51

too bad, i was hoping the chapter would've picked up from last time. i was hoping to see everyone's reactions to harima picking tenma over the manga (especially tenma's!) and i was hoping to see harima go crazy over the manga. oh well, i enjoy a little angst every now and then in SR.

i just hope they follow up on how people feel about harima picking tenma... it seems more and more people are finding out who likes who, so i'm hoping more people find out about who harima really likes.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-03, 21:52

@ Swampstorm: Pretty good. I'm almost entirely convinced, because I find some truth in your analysis as well. It can probably only be done by a true Flagger, though, because most of us here were fixated on the changes in Yakumo shown in this chapter and any connection to the slap than going further back.

Her guilt, unfortunately, can be the cause of her own confusion as well. Making apologies is one thing, which I would approve of very much, but supporting Flag? What about her own opinion? After her little talk about how Tenma has been treating her and how great her sister was, I have little doubt that even if she apologize, there was little that can be used to stop her if she finds out Eri has "put down" Tenma again. Supporting Flag would need Yakumo to get rid of any and all prejudices she has against Eri, because guilt to her is one thing: Obstructions to her sister are another. It won't be right either if she were to support Flag out of guilt either, just to "make things right" for Eri.

It's up to one's interpretation of what "things" she buried inside her. For one, your explanation sounds rather logical. It's still too early, though, to decide completely if she does or doesn't have any feelings for Harima. This chapter only shows a change in her. We need more actions, more reactions from Yakumo to decide on a clearer picture.

The bad thing about Onigiri is that most of it is vague at best. Good to discuss, hard to decide. It has never been entirely clear like Oudou or Flag, which are easier to point out. Getting embroiled into an argument about it will be quite endless, IMO.

Still, I can't help but feel even if this spells a revelation for Yakumo's feelings for Harima, the indication that Harima had chosen Tenma over the manga might actually be a signal to tell us that Onigiri has taken a step backwards. It's because of the fact that Onigiri mainly has its connections through the manga. This would probably be good for Yakumo, though, considering how focused she is on supporting Oudou now.

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 21:56

Just because she feels bad for what she did doesn't mean she has to make up for it.
No, everyone still does. Eri felt really bad in Ch.211, but that still didn't stop the slap. This chapter was put in to save Yakumo's character.

There is nothing in that chapter that shows that Yakumo is forcing herself to stand by as Eri pursues Harima.
No, but there's also nothing in this chapter that shows that Yakumo is interested in Harima. We actually managed to disprove that she's interested in him using a combination of b29, 206, and this chapter. If you disagree, you're welcome to develop a counterargument.

She is even asking Sara what she should do. I have a feeling Sara will nudge Yakumo into trying to get closer to Harima because she is that type of person.
She's asking Sara what she can do to make amends.

There is no reason for Yakumo to make amends and the slap can frankly be taken care of by a simple apology.
Usually you absolve feelings of guilt by making amends. Of course, maybe Yakumo will continue to feel guilty throughout the rest of the series. Go with whichever one you prefer.

The main point of the chapter is that Yakumo has finally realized her feelings.
Which is completely disproved by my earlier posts.

If Yakumo were to stand by even after all this, there would be no reason for the mangaka to make this chapter at all.
I predicted back in Ch.211/212 that Yakumo would recognize that she's made a mistake by interfering with Flag. Remember that Yakumo is the captain of Team Oudou at present - having her come to a realization is the best way to overcome that obstacle.

Also, remember that happy endings are all about perception. If Yakumo still has an axe to grind with Eri, and Eri ends up with Harima, it isn't a happy ending. This way, Eri gets Yakumo's blessing.

He made it for a reason and this shows a change in Yakumo's personality and also in her attitude towards Harima.
Eh? I see much mention of Eri, but little of Harima.

For her to not do anything after this realization would be turning the tears she shed into a lie.
Tell you what. Read over the posts above you, and refute them. Then we'll chat. You seem to have glossed over most of them.

The biggest problem here is that some people have jumped to conclusions (yet again!) regarding Yakumo's opinion of Harima. Instead of taking that assumption for granted and making claims based off of that idea, come out and prove it, first. :rolleyes:

Supporting Flag would need Yakumo to get rid of any and all prejudices she has against Eri, because guilt to her is one thing: Obstructions to her sister are another. It won't be right either if she were to support Flag out of guilt either, just to "make things right" for Eri.
Well, I think the first step towards making amends is for Yakumo to get rid of that prejudice. She can decide what she wants to do afterwards. She doesn't have to actively help, either - just so long as she doesn't decide to obstruct things.

It's still too early, though, to decide completely if she does or doesn't have any feelings for Harima.
Oh, I get that. Even if she doesn't have feelings now, she can still develop them later, in theory, or she may be revealed to have them later. The point here, though, is that this response of guilt is tied to Eri, not Harima.

Still, I can't help but feel even if this spells a revelation for Yakumo's feelings for Harima, the indication that Harima had chosen Tenma over the manga might actually be a signal to tell us that Onigiri has taken a step backwards. It's because of the fact that Onigiri mainly has its connections through the manga. This would probably be good for Yakumo, though, considering how focused she is on supporting Oudou now.
It's not really about Onigiri, at the end of the line, though. It's about Yakumo. Her character is what benefits by this act. Onigiri is more a matter for the fans, than for her, until she demonstrates an interest in Harima.

Forever

2007-03-03, 22:16

You must have had to swim through an ocean of Onigiri cockiness just to get to my post. I feel tired just thinking about all that effort. :heh:

All that I've done is to set the record straight.

A whole ocean of onigiri? LoL you are exagerrating. Finally seeing an onigiri moment after such a long flag development should naturally bring some cheer and optimism.

And I highly doubt harima really going to acting for good. He still has a manga to write. He may even have to do it concurrently to meet the deadline. Something he definitely need yakumo with.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-03, 22:16

I predicted back in Ch.211/212 that Yakumo would recognize that she's made a mistake by interfering with Flag. Remember that Yakumo is the captain of Team Oudou at present - having her come to a realization is the best way to overcome that obstacle.

Also, remember that happy endings are all about perception. If Yakumo still has an axe to grind with Eri, and Eri ends up with Harima, it isn't a happy ending. This way, Eri gets Yakumo's blessing.

Not all that strange. For a Flagger, any happy ending has to occur with Flag. :heh: As much as I hate to say it in respect to Onigiri, there is more room for anticipation for Flag development after the last panel. (Eri: I haven't given up.)

Well, I think the first step towards making amends is for Yakumo to get rid of that prejudice. She can decide what she wants to do afterwards. She doesn't have to actively help, either - just so long as she doesn't decide to obstruct things.

Oh, I get that. Even if she doesn't have feelings now, she can still develop them later, in theory, or she may be revealed to have them later. The point here, though, is that this response of guilt is tied to Eri, not Harima.

Getting rid of the prejudice is good, of course. This is the point where I find it can get somewhat confusing for her, though, because in support of Oudou, she is directly obstructing Flag, so in this aspect I would agree with you-Her guilt has came about solely from her actions to Eri, but it has nothing to do with Flag. Of course, I would be happy if she doesn't intentionally mess things up for Eri though, and instead be an enthusiastic fan sitting in the stands waving an Oudou banner in her hands. :heh:

It's not really about Onigiri, at the end of the line, though. It's about Yakumo. Her character is what benefits by this act. Onigiri is more a matter for the fans, than for her, until she demonstrates an interest in Harima.

I should have written a "This is just an assumption" at the back:eyespin:. This was a Yakumo chapter more than anything. It's the prospect of finally seeing something less vague about Onigiri that's gotten some people in a frenzy and I was admittedly excited about it until I re-read the chapter.

Streetor

2007-03-03, 22:52

No, but there's also nothing in this chapter that shows that Yakumo is interested in Harima. We actually managed to disprove that she's interested in him using a combination of b29, 206, and this chapter. If you disagree, you're welcome to develop a counterargument.

Yakumo didn't even realize her feelings before then because it all started to come to the surface for her

In chapter 206, you have a girl who doesn't even know what is in her and how she feels. She is also not going to freely admit in front of all the girls that she would like to end up with Harima.

She's asking Sara what she can do to make amends.

I think this is disproven by what she says herself. On the end of page 208, she said "That's what I thought when I slapped her...but I was wrong" when referring to why she slapped Eri.

This quote alone combined with "I know Sawachika-senpai is in love Harima and....it hurts me so badly inside" shows that Yakumo had an underlying meaning to slapping Eri. There is no way you can argue that the sole reason for Yakumo slapping Eri was only because she felt Eri insulted her sister. Yakumo stated she thought she was slapping Eri because she insulted her sister, but she was wrong.

You probably feel Yakumo is saying something like "It hurts me so badly (at what I have done.)" I along with a few other people are looking at it like "It hurts me so badly (that Eri is pursuing Harima right in front of me.)"

You also have to look at the side panel once again. It says "Yakumo, as a girl." Throughout the entire series, Yakumo has been a girl atypical of her age. She had never fallen in love, which in Japan is emphasized in many Japanese anime and manga. Now that these hidden feelings for Harima are finally being realized, Yakumo is finally becomming a girl.

Which is completely disproved by my earlier posts.

Unfortunately, your posts are taken by your own point of view and how you read the text as I showed above. We don't have an anime or anything that provides voices with how these texts are to be taken. I'm sure you feel the same way about me, but I see the way things are unfolding much more differently than you.

I predicted back in Ch.211/212 that Yakumo would recognize that she's made a mistake by interfering with Flag. Remember that Yakumo is the captain of Team Oudou at present - having her come to a realization is the best way to overcome that obstacle.

Also, remember that happy endings are all about perception. If Yakumo still has an axe to grind with Eri, and Eri ends up with Harima, it isn't a happy ending. This way, Eri gets Yakumo's blessing.

Personally, I don't think Yakumo has truly confirmed Harima's own feelings. She has suspected it, but not confirmed. Also, remember it is not Harima Tenma likes, it is Karasuma. Therefore, she will be wanting Tenma to wind up with Karasuma and not Harima.

Tell you what. Read over the posts above you, and refute them. Then we'll chat. You seem to have glossed over most of them.

The biggest problem here is that some people have jumped to conclusions (yet again!) regarding Yakumo's opinion of Harima. Instead of taking that assumption for granted and making claims based off of that idea, come out and prove it, first. :rolleyes:

No need to get testy please. From one's point of view, you could also be the one jumping to conclusions such as declaring that Yakumo is asking Sara what she should do to make amends. I don't see Yakumo asking Sara what she should do to make amends. I see Yakumo asking Sara what she should do about her feelings boiling up within her. Unfortunately for us, nothing we say is going to change each other's mind so for now we can agree to disagree.

However, the good thing about this argument is that over time, it should be solved. Sure it may take a few weeks but it will be eventually. We just have to see what Yakumo does in the weeks ahead. If she tries to make amends to Eri and lets her pursue Harima, or if indeed Yakumo does go after Harima.

Also, you are a stark flag supporter while I am neither a flag nor onigirist so I may be wrong but you may have a slight bias towards situations that favor Eri. I only want Harima to end up with one of the two either Eri or Yakumo because I want to see someone break through that wall he has had the entire manga.

Not that I hate Tenma, I think she's adorable :)

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 22:52

A whole ocean of onigiri? LoL you are exagerrating.
LoL I was indeed. Hyperbole works that way.

Finally seeing an onigiri moment after such a long flag development should naturally bring some cheer and optimism.
I thought we just went over this. Onigiri moment? Yakumo =! Onigiri.

And I highly doubt harima really going to acting for good. He still has a manga to write. He may even have to do it concurrently to meet the deadline. Something he definitely need yakumo with.
Yeah, he does have a manga to write. But we really don't know with whom. There are plenty of alternatives out there.

Not all that strange. For a Flagger, any happy ending has to occur with Flag.
Well, in the event of an Onigiri or Oudou ending, I'd expect Eri to be made to come to terms with it in some positive way, rather than "...and she held a grudge for the rest of her natural life."

Getting rid of the prejudice is good, of course. This is the point where I find it can get somewhat confusing for her, though, because in support of Oudou, she is directly obstructing Flag, so in this aspect I would agree with you-Her guilt has came about solely from her actions to Eri, but it has nothing to do with Flag. Of course, I would be happy if she doesn't intentionally mess things up for Eri though, and instead be an enthusiastic fan sitting in the stands waving an Oudou banner in her hands.
I'd actually like a clearer picture of why she is rooting for Oudou, first. We've got some vague hints in Ch. 206, but none of those seem to reflect favorably on her. If Tenma actually was interested in Harima, then it would make more sense, but as it stands, it seems a little strange.

I think this is disproven by what she says herself. On the end of page 208, she said "That's what I thought when I slapped her...but I was wrong when referring to why she slapped Eri.

This quote alone combined with I know Sawachika-senpai is in love Harima and....it hurts me so badly inside shows that Yakumo had an underlying meaning to slapping Eri. There is no way you can argue that the sole reason for Yakumo slapping Eri was only because she felt Eri insulted her sister. Yakumo stated she thought she was slapping Eri because she insulted her sister, but she was wrong.
Excellent, excellent. I just finished discussing this in another place.

Consider the difference between:
1) That's what I thought when I slapped her.
2) That's why I thought I slapped her.

That itself is refutation enough. Hopefully that settles that point once and for all.

You probably feel Yakumo is saying something like "It hurts me so badly (at what I have done.) I along with other people are looking at it like "It hurts me so badly (that Eri is pursuing Harima right in front of me.)
No mention of pursuing. Don't change the wording.

You also have to look at the side panel once again. It says "Yakumo, as a girl." Throughout the entire series, Yakumo has been a girl atypical of her age. She had never fallen in love, which in Japan is emphasized in many Japanese anime and manga. Now that these hidden feelings for Harima are finally being realized, Yakumo is finally becomming a girl.
It means that "Miss Perfect" is human after all. She makes mistakes, cries, and feels remorse. She's not Wonder Woman, as the title of her debut in b1 suggests, but she's just a girl.

From one's point of view, you could also be the one jumping to conclusions such as declaring that Yakumo is asking Sara what she should do to make amends. I don't see Yakumo asking Sara what she should do to make amends. I see Yakumo asking Sara what she should do about her feelings boiling up within her. Unfortunately for us, nothing we say is going to change each other's mind so for now we can agree to disagree.
Based on the context, it's a valid explanation. It's not one that is relevant to my case, though - it merely follows as a corollary to the other points of the discussion. Note also that she doesn't use the words "feelings".

Unfortunately, your posts are taken by your own point of view and how you read the text as I showed above. We don't have an anime or anything that provides voices with how these texts are to be taken. I'm sure you feel the same way about me, but I see the way things are unfolding much more differently than you.
It's not about what we feel. It's about what we can prove.

No need to get testy please.
Sorry, that's just my avvie. She's cute, isn't she? ;)

Unfortunately for us, nothing we say is going to change each other's mind so for now we can agree to disagree.
I don't agree to that, though. :D
If you post something that I disagree with, I'll challenge it. Simple as that.

Also, you are a stark flag supporter while I am neither a flag nor onigirist so I may be wrong but you may have a slight bias towards situations that favor Eri.
Ad hom. It really doesn't matter who you support.
I prefer to be a "lively" Flag supporter to being a "stark" one, though. ;)

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-03, 23:23

Yeah, he does have a manga to write. But we really don't know with whom. There are plenty of alternatives out there.

I don't know about 'plenty', but he certainly does have a few...Not counting any possible new characters coming in.

Well, in the event of an Onigiri or Oudou ending, I'd expect Eri to be made to come to terms with it in some positive way, rather than "...and she held a grudge for the rest of her natural life."
Agreed.

I'd actually like a clearer picture of why she is rooting for Oudou, first. We've got some vague hints in Ch. 206, but none of those seem to reflect favorably on her. If Tenma actually was interested in Harima, then it would make more sense, but as it stands, it seems a little strange.

Perhaps the fact that both Tenma and Harima are two of the closest people she has interacted with can prove something?
In this, her belief would be that of "Harima's good for Onee-chan". I'm pretty sure some interaction between them has been seen by her, causing her to think like that. Besides, comparing with Karasuma and Eri, Yakumo knows little to nothing about them, only that (probably) it seems as though Tenma might have a crush on him and that Eri likes Harima. As for their respective characters and personalities...:confused: Unforunately, this is based on her own perception of things, a case of doing the 'wrong' things with the right intentions.
Besides, if ever Tenma was actually interested in Harima, that will be quite the end of one of the main attractions of SR as we know it. If you noticed, this would apply also why she would support Flag at all. "If Harima was the least bit interested in Eri, that would make more sense" would also apply, don't you think? :)

It means that "Miss Perfect" is human after all. She makes mistakes, cries, and feels remorse. She's not Wonder Woman, as the title of her debut in b1 suggests, but she's just a girl.
Excellent. I hope that changes the opinions of all those who still consider her 'high and mighty' in a bad way.

Streetor

2007-03-03, 23:24

No mention of pursuing. Don't change the wording.

I'm not changing the wording. I'm showing how we are both observing the way that quote should be taken. The pursuing is how I look at it. I thought the parenthesis showed that.

It means that "Miss Perfect" is human after all. She makes mistakes, cries, and feels remorse. She's not Wonder Woman, as the title of her debut in b1 suggests, but she's just a girl.

Then it would probably say like "Yakumo, as a human" or something like that. We already knew Yakumo wasn't quite Miss Perfect back in the flashback when she was a little girl.

It's not about what we feel. It's about what we can prove.

It is most definately what we feel.

There is no way to prove how Yakumo's quote is to be taken. I feel Yakumo is saying something like "it hurts me so badly Harima is being pursued by Eri right in front of me." While you feel or think Yakumo is saying "It hurts me so badly that I slapped Eri." Again, I may be totally wrong. Yakumo could very well be saying she hurts just because she feels bad about slapping. I however do not think that I think Yakumo is saying that because it's a combination of not only guilt, but also envy and realizing her own feelings.

There is no way to prove either of us are right short of the mangaka posting here himself (which would be pretty cool.) I am however open to your point of view and willing to see that you could be right. I hope that you are open to others' points of view too and you are willing to see that you could be wrong.

Ad hom. It really doesn't matter who you support.
I prefer to be a "lively" Flag supporter to being a "stark" one, though.

It does matter who you support. You don't think that deep down, you may be spinning or looking things at the way you want to look at them?

Based on the context, it's a valid explanation. It's not one that is relevant to my case, though - it merely follows as a corollary to the other points of the discussion. Note also that she doesn't use the words "feelings".

She says "I've buried so many things inside of me." What do humans bury inside of them?

Emotions, feelings.

Swampstorm

2007-03-03, 23:56

I'm not changing the wording. I'm showing how we are both observing the way that quote should be taken. The pursuing is how I look at it. I thought the parenthesis showed that.
But the words in the parenthesis change the original meaning. Why not go with "It hurts me so badly... (I love Harima!)", and follow it up with "zOMG~! That proves that Yakumo loves Harima!"

Then it would probably say like "Yakumo, as a human" or something like that.
Yakumo is known to be a human. "Yakumo, as a girl," suggests that she's still in the process of maturing, and has her own problems to overcome. No part of the word "girl" implies "must seek romantic relationship."

We already knew Yakumo wasn't quite Miss Perfect back in the flashback when she was a little girl.
We knew that even with her first encounter with Hanai. Nobody said that this comment had to be something completely new. It's just the author's thoughts on the scene.

It is most definately what we feel.
Sure. You're welcome to reinterpret reality in any way that you want. In order to convince others, though, you need to use logic and evidence to back up your points. I might not be able to convince you in particular, if you're absolutely determined to keep your point of view no matter what, but you aren't the only person here. If not you, then perhaps someone else will find the points raised in this discussion to have credence.

There is no way to prove how Yakumo's quote is to be taken. I feel Yakumo is saying something like "it hurts me so badly Harima is being pursued by Eri right in front of me." While you feel or think Yakumo is saying "It hurts me so badly that I slapped Eri."
There are limits to which sentences can be twisted into new meanings, based on the limitations that grammar places on it. The idea that you propose cannot be expressed using the sentence that was provided. That was the point in my earlier post.

Again, I may be totally wrong. Yakumo could very well be saying she hurts just because she feels bad about slapping. I however do not think that I think Yakumo is saying that because it's a combination of not only guilt, but also envy and realizing her own feelings.
I just want to know where you got the envy part from. That's the part that's missing, and that's also the part that's vital to your entire line of reasoning.

There is no way to prove either of us are right short of the mangaka posting here himself (which would be pretty cool.) I am however open to your point of view and willing to see that you could be right. I hope that you are open to others' points of view too and you are willing to see that you could be wrong.
I could be wrong, but until that's proven, I'll still continue to argue the points that I've made to the best of my ability, so long as they still have merit.

It does matter who you support. You don't think that deep down, you may be spinning or looking things at the way you want to look at them?
It's still an ad hominem argument. It's not about who you are or what you support. The strength of your reasoning is the only thing that counts in terms of logic. If you think I'm distorting the facts because of my bias, then it should be only too easy to prove me wrong using logic of your own, right?

She says "I've buried so many things inside of me." What do humans bury inside of them?

Emotions, feelings.
Guilt is a feeling. Works for me.
Just try not to equivocate with that word.

-Ajax-

2007-03-04, 00:01

Then it would probably say like "Yakumo, as a human" or something like that. We already knew Yakumo wasn't quite Miss Perfect back in the flashback when she was a little girl.

That was then, this is now, and now we have finally seen what today's Yakumo truly is like. The Yakumo of the past was practically a different person in the way she treated Tenma in the past most importantly, until the incident that changed her.

She says "I've buried so many things inside of me." What do humans bury inside of them?

Emotions, feelings.

Like guilt. Swamp's analysis of this makes perfect sense.

Streetor

2007-03-04, 00:35

But the words in the parenthesis change the original meaning. Why not go with "It hurts me so badly... (I love Harima!)", and follow it up with "zOMG~! That proves that Yakumo loves Harima!"

Alright now you're just being silly

Guilt is a feeling. Works for me.
Just try not to equivocate with that word

Guilt is in there yes. I have no doubt she feels guilty about slapping Eri. However, she also said there were many things within her. This shows it's more than guilt.

Swamp, I think this quote emphasizes you the most, posted about 50 pages ago

Nope, you're filtering things entirely through a Flag perspective. You won't be convinced unless Yakumo comes out wearing an "I :love: HARIMA" t-shirt and sunglasses :heh:

You've been obstinate in your ways for over 50 pages. Unfortunately it seems you aren't willing to open your mind just a bit so if you've been doing this for 50 pages, nothing I say is going to matter to you.

Forever

2007-03-04, 00:42

I thought we just went over this. Onigiri moment? Yakumo =! Onigiri.

As long as there is any hint of character development in yakumo towards her feelings, there is onigiri development. The stumbling block for onigiri is how yakumo's feelings for harima and whether will she do something about it.

Anyway currently technically yakumo is harima's best assistant. Though he may just choose irrationally choose tenma.

wontaek

2007-03-04, 00:44

Here are my impressions.

1. Harima has again failed the editor in delibering usuable work in time. His career is in jeopardy and he is very close to giving it up.
2. If Harim gives up the manga, that mean there will be almost no reason to meet Yakumo. Yakumo knows this and is troubled by the notion ( no going back comment seems to be for this purpose as well )
3. Yakumo has been storing all kinds of things within her and shoe senses many dark things within her. I believe it includes guilt and love, but many other things like frustration, realization of self-delusion, and many, many other things. Right now, her love life would be last thing I would be interested. She needs to come to grip with herself again, and she knows it has to start with her apologizing to Eri, yet so many things are clouding her thought. Yakumo needs to think about herself and her relation with Tenma and Eri to start with. Harima should be considered only after Eri.
4. Eri is up to something or she is too caught up in the moment. Either she is going to do something important, or more likely, since this is School Rumble, she is going to make one spectacular and funny mistake.
5. I wonder if Eri realizes that she might have destroyed what little hope for future Harima had. I also wonder if this will be used to make Eri confess to Harima.

About posts I have seen so far.

1. Everyone seems to be wearing colored glasses and is not afraid of concealing it. Well, the posts won't be any fun without some difference in perspectives.
2. As some have mentioned, the matter for Yakumo is not just about Harima. Eri had dealt with her potentially life-changing crisis. It is now Yakumo's turn, and I fear her troubles are much more serious, deep, and far reaching compared to Eri. We shouldn't be talking about Onigiri comeback. We should be talking about whether Yakumo might lose herself to darkness of not. Let's forget about coupling and who goes out with who stuffs for now.
3. I am suprised about lack of guesses at what Eri is up to. She sure sounds as if she is going to shakes things up again.

Marsala

2007-03-04, 00:45

It doesn't make sense for Yakumo to have no feelings for Harima and to currently be feeling guilty just because she learned that Eri loves Harima.

Let's look at it step by step. Yakumo sees Eri bullying Tenma and slaps her because she feels that she must defend Tenma. She feels justified in doing this. Later on, she learns that Eri tore Harima's manga as a test of Harima's feelings for Tenma. This tells Yakumo that Eri loves Harima. Suddenly Yakumo feels very guilty for slapping Eri, enough to break down crying in front of Sara. But Yakumo's reason for slapping Eri has not changed. Why should the reason that Eri insulted Tenma matter to Yakumo now? Something does not compute here.

Is loving Harima enough of a reason to justify Eri's behavior towards Tenma in Yakumo's eyes, so much that Yakumo would think herself a horrible person for opposing Eri's behavior? Does Yakumo think something along the lines of, "I thought that Sawachika-sempai should not insult my sister, but it's understandable to me now since Sawachika-sempai was just jealous and I shouldn't have gotten in her way"?

Basically, it does not make sense for Yakumo to have so strong a reaction unless her own buried feelings are heavily involved as Streetor has been saying.

On Eri: I don't think that she is "up to anything" at the moment, as her current situation is a difficult one. However, she does look a bit sinister in the last panel, what with her saying that she "still hasn't given up" with a frown while wearing her supervillain outfit.

OMGItsTehSARS

2007-03-04, 01:06

On Eri: I don't think that she is "up to anything" at the moment, as her current situation is a difficult one. However, she does look a bit sinister in the last panel, what with her saying that she "still hasn't given up" with a frown while wearing her supervillain outfit.

To me, it was kind of scene like in old cartoons where they say "back to old drawing board", more of a comedic scene to me than actual seriousness.

Freeter

2007-03-04, 01:54

Guess I should chime in before this board gets really out of hand...

Even though I'm pro-Onigiri, I'm also open to the prospect of a Flag ending, since Eri is a tsundere character I can respect (unlike Suzuka from the Suzuka manga, who acts all bitchy yet shows no signs of fighting for what she wants since it all goes her way regardless). Yet when I see Flag fans such as Swampstorm go to great lengths to dismiss the idea of Yakumo being in love with Harima, I can't help but to question the intentions behind such actions.

Jin is very ambiguous when it comes to Yakumo (even calling her a "complex character"), yet he continuously entertains the possibility of her having feelings for Harima. We all know he doesn't give a damn about popularity polls, so why would he taunt us repeatedly with implications of those feelings if nothing was ultimately going to come of it? Why include Yakumo in the story of the "three" princesses if the "prince" in question was someone she didn't care for? The story could've easily been modified or narrowed to just Eri and Tenma, yet by adding Yakumo to that mix, Jin is suggesting that her role is something more than a bystander or support, like Sara and Mikoto/Akira.

I can understand Swampstorm's analysis of Yakumo harboring guilt as one of the leading causes for her breakdown. But Eri is only one of the reasons for that guilt, not the sole primary one. She admitted that she has a lot of things bottled up inside, so why not consider romantic feelings for Harima as one of them? Wouldn't you rather see Eri have some real competition instead of having to try and outwit Tenma (which, while comical, would grow stale REAL fast)? I know I would :cool: .

Adam E

2007-03-04, 02:34

Here are my impressions.

1. Harima has again failed the editor in delibering usuable work in time. His career is in jeopardy and he is very close to giving it up.

Harima has failed the editor many times in the past and he always manages to pull something out of his ass at the last second, so this isn't something to be concerned about.

2. If Harim gives up the manga, that mean there will be almost no reason to meet Yakumo. Yakumo knows this and is troubled by the notion ( no going back comment seems to be for this purpose as well )

Harima stopped meeting with Yakumo about the manga before this chapter, so, if this is really bothering her, this should have appeared as an issue before this chapter.

4. Eri is up to something or she is too caught up in the moment. Either she is going to do something important, or more likely, since this is School Rumble, she is going to make one spectacular and funny mistake.

Yes, it looks like she plans on charming Harima! How dare she!

Since she's been the main character in this arc, anything she does is bound to be important. It's difficult to predict what she'll do, but it's likely to be entertaining.

5. I wonder if Eri realizes that she might have destroyed what little hope for future Harima had. I also wonder if this will be used to make Eri confess to Harima.

Uh, Harima himself says that he can just make a new script. I have no idea why you think Harima's future rested within that one manga.

Let's look at it step by step. Yakumo sees Eri bullying Tenma and slaps her because she feels that she must defend Tenma. She feels justified in doing this.

"That's what I thought when I slapped her. But...I was wrong...."

Yakumo now knows that this isn't true, but it seems like you missed this and you should revise all your ideas with this fact in mind.

On Eri: I don't think that she is "up to anything" at the moment, as her current situation is a difficult one. However, she does look a bit sinister in the last panel, what with her saying that she "still hasn't given up" with a frown while wearing her supervillain outfit.

Yes, I expect she does look malevolent, menacing, and all around threatening to all those against Flag, since she still hasn't given up on pursuing him.

Really, though, it’s much more likely Jin just has her dressed up like that to lighten up the chapter after Yakumo's excessive angst.

Jin is very ambiguous when it comes to Yakumo (even calling her a "complex character"), yet he continuously entertains the possibility of her having feelings for Harima. We all know he doesn't give a damn about popularity polls, so why would he taunt us repeatedly with implications of those feelings if nothing was ultimately going to come of it? Why include Yakumo in the story of the "three" princesses if the "prince" in question was someone she didn't care for? The story could've easily been modified or narrowed to just Eri and Tenma, yet by adding Yakumo to that mix, Jin is suggesting that her role is something more than a bystander or support, like Sara and Mikoto/Akira.

Tension, to answer your question. If we’re left in the dark about Yakumo’s feelings, it raises tension for Flag and Onigiri fans. Flag, since it makes her appear as a credible rival (yet makes it believable should Jin decide not to have Yakumo like Harima), and it raises tension for Onigiri fans, since it makes them anxious about whether or not Yakumo really likes Harima or not. Tension, and the resulting anxiety, is a critical aspect of any good story.

But Eri is only one of the reasons for that guilt, not the sole primary one. She admitted that she has a lot of things bottled up inside, so why not consider romantic feelings for Harima as one of them?

Simple. She never really demonstrates that she loves Harima in earlier chapters.

Wouldn't you rather see Eri have some real competition instead of having to try and outwit Tenma (which, while comical, would grow stale REAL fast)? I know I would :cool: .

No. I don’t care for having characters getting hurt when they don’t need to be, and, the way things are, Yakumo is going to get seriously hurt if she goes after Harima since Eri has a considerable advantage over her. Eri is having enough trouble getting over Harima’s prejudice; I’d rather see her deal with that issue than see her getting involved with a pointless rivalry.

I have a great dislike for many harem series, and I don’t want School Rumble to degenerate into one, since that’s what it’ll become if Yakumo and Eri start having a catfight over Harima.

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-04, 02:46

It starts to get to me sometimes when accusations and crap about one character or the other start flying back and forth about biaseness amongst posters in regards to supporting Flag, Onigiri or Oudou. In this case, it is easy to see that this whole thing with Yakumo's inner feelings involves not only guilt, because it will make her a much less credible character than she is.

Harima stopped meeting with Yakumo about the manga before this chapter, so, if this is really bothering her, this should have appeared as an issue before this chapter.
You don't seem to understand the point of this chapter. It is to tell us that Yakumo has finally reached a breaking point, that there is change in her, that she finally realises that there's something inside her. Thus far the impression she has given us is keeping mostly everything to herself, since we hardly know a lot about her thoughts unlike Eri or Harima.

About Eri: It's more of comical relief, I think, and to add to the feeling of anticipation of what she's going to do next, whether it's trouble or something exciting. Whichever it is, it has a desirable effect on keeping the readers in suspense.

Marsala

2007-03-04, 02:47

"That's what I thought when I slapped her. But...I was wrong...."

Yakumo now knows that this isn't true, but it seems like you missed this and you should revise all your ideas with this fact in mind.
Yakumo now knows that what isn't true? I guess I don't completely understand what you are saying. Could you clarify your position more precisely?

Are you saying that Yakumo now knows that Eri loves Harima, which somehow means that Yakumo was wrong to defend the innocent Tenma from Eri? Are you saying that Yakumo now knows that defending Tenma was wrong to do in and of itself? If so, why? Why would learning the truth about Eri's feelings change Yakumo's mind about defending her sister? The aggressor's motivations shouldn't matter, just her actions.

My position is that Yakumo means that she now knows that she was wrong about her own motivation; she slapped Eri because of her own jealousy. That is why she is so upset.

wontaek

2007-03-04, 03:33

Harima has failed the editor many times in the past and he always manages to pull something out of his ass at the last second, so this isn't something to be concerned about.

Uh, Harima himself says that he can just make a new script. I have no idea why you think Harima's future rested within that one manga.

I know that for young aspiring writers or mangaka, one deadline missed can easily mean end of career. Harima's word, ' There is no more... ' sounds just like someone who realize that he has used up any indulgence granted upon him and one more mistake may mean end of the line.
At chapter 214, Harima thought he can make another copy of his manga. We know from 215, that he no longer think so, from his repeated line of ' I don't know ... ' Please stop thinking about this as score one for Eri or Yakumo stuff. By p. 5 in chapter 215, Harima was acting as if he lost his grip with reality, and that was Yakumo's initial worry until she heard about the script being torn by Eri. There are many guesses as why she is shocked about it, but my suspicion is, part, and just a part, not the whole, of the reason is that Yakumo might be wondering if she has droven Eri into tearing the script while filming. In this line, she is also feeling guilty of ruining Harima's work, endangering his career ( please! one deadline missed can mean death of young mangaka career ), as well as Harima's sanity. Let's please see that love and jelousy makes up only small portion of the whole story.

Swampstorm

2007-03-04, 03:39

As long as there is any hint of character development in yakumo towards her feelings, there is onigiri development. The stumbling block for onigiri is how yakumo's feelings for harima and whether will she do something about it.
It's simple, really. If there's evidence for those feelings, then show it. If we can establish that she has feelings for Harima, then you can start to try and equate the two. If you can't, then don't bother. :p

If Harim gives up the manga, that mean there will be almost no reason to meet Yakumo. Yakumo knows this and is troubled by the notion ( no going back comment seems to be for this purpose as well )
Allow me to remind you that Yakumo voluntarily gave up that manga connection on her own in Ch.207.

Is loving Harima enough of a reason to justify Eri's behavior towards Tenma in Yakumo's eyes, so much that Yakumo would think herself a horrible person for opposing Eri's behavior? Does Yakumo think something along the lines of, "I thought that Sawachika-sempai should not insult my sister, but it's understandable to me now since Sawachika-sempai was just jealous and I shouldn't have gotten in her way"?
That's why I brought up b29. There's a long history right there. Five months is plenty of time for guilt to build up.

Yet when I see Flag fans such as Swampstorm go to great lengths to dismiss the idea of Yakumo being in love with Harima, I can't help but to question the intentions behind such actions.
More ad hom attacks.

Every time you attack your opponent's credibility instead of attacking their reasoning, you're doing a fairly obvious ploy that most people can see through fairly easily. Please, show some respect to the people around you. Always assume that they can see through this sort of trickery, and just don't use it. Unless you plan on running for office, of course. ;)

I didn't have to go to great lengths. The refutation was remarkably simple - I probably could have saved time with a simple copy+paste, since all my points from earlier still stand. :heh:

Jin is very ambiguous when it comes to Yakumo (even calling her a "complex character"), yet he continuously entertains the possibility of her having feelings for Harima.
KJ, to the best of my knowledge, has made no mention of entertaining such a possibility in his interviews. If you can find me something to the contrary, I'd gladly read through it.

We all know he doesn't give a damn about popularity polls, so why would he taunt us repeatedly with implications of those feelings if nothing was ultimately going to come of it?
Maybe he just likes teasing you. Reading some of these posts certainly makes me feel that way. :heh:

Your expectations are your own responsibility.

Why include Yakumo in the story of the "three" princesses if the "prince" in question was someone she didn't care for?
Perhaps because the chapter in question was about Yakumo? Or perhaps because that was the chapter where we established that Yakumo had no feelings for Harima, contrary to popular belief?

Wouldn't you rather see Eri have some real competition instead of having to try and outwit Tenma (which, while comical, would grow stale REAL fast)? I know I would.
No. I want Eri to be 100% happy, thank you very much. Harima is enough of a challenge on his own.

I've seen 40 chapters of Onigiri vs. Flag already, anyways. I can always reread Ch.86-126 if I want more.

In this case, it is easy to see that this whole thing with Yakumo's inner feelings involves not only guilt, because it will make her a much less credible character than she is.
It's not so easy for me. Could you help me out?

You don't seem to understand the point of this chapter. It is to tell us that Yakumo has finally reached a breaking point, that there is change in her, that she finally realises that there's something inside her. Thus far the impression she has given us is keeping mostly everything to herself, since we hardly know a lot about her thoughts unlike Eri or Harima.
Sorry, how does this contradict the line you quoted? I vaguely got the sense that you disliked it and intended on refuting it, but I didn't really see that happen.

My position is that Yakumo means that she now knows that she was wrong about her own motivation; she slapped Eri because of her own jealousy. That is why she is so upset.
The funny thing is, after my earlier post, it seems like most Onigirists have chosen to opt for the jealousy route and drag Yakumo's character through the mud, rather than giving up a chance to prove that she's interested in Harima. Just a few chapters ago, you were so valiantly defending her actions as being pristine and pure, too. :heh:

I hope you realize that the costs outweigh the benefits, though. This sort of claim attacks the very core of Yakumo's character. "Girl becomes jealous of the female lead and attacks her physically, then goes on to live happily ever after with the hero." That... really doesn't seem like a good plan.

I'm actually starting to feel like my statements are more supportive to Onigiri than some of yours. :heh:

There are many guesses as why she is shocked about it, but my suspicion is, part, and just a part, not the whole, of the reason is that Yakumo might be wondering if she has droven Eri into tearing the script while filming. In this line, she is also feeling guilty of ruining Harima's work, endangering his career ( please! one deadline missed can mean death of young mangaka career ), as well as Harima's sanity.
wontaek, that was a good point. I like it. It's still ultimately about feelings of guilt, regardless, but it does sound very sensible. :)

It also can be used as a counterargument for something else. Let me stash that one away until I need it. ;)

Streetor

2007-03-04, 03:58

Marsala

2007-03-04, 04:25

The funny thing is, after my earlier post, it seems like most Onigirists have chosen to opt for the jealousy route and drag Yakumo's character through the mud, rather than giving up a chance to prove that she's interested in Harima. Just a few chapters ago, you were so valiantly defending her actions as being pristine and pure, too. :heh:

I hope you realize that the costs outweigh the benefits, though. This sort of claim attacks the very core of Yakumo's character. "Girl becomes jealous of the female lead and attacks her physically, then goes on to live happily ever after with the hero." That... really doesn't seem like a good plan.

I'm actually starting to feel like my statements are more supportive to Onigiri than some of yours. :heh:

I'm not even an Onigirist, so your reply above is off target. Initially, I thought that the Slap was due primarily to Yakumo defending Tenma with perhaps a little bit of jealousy buried deep down. This chapter suggests that I might have gotten it backwards, with Yakumo primarily motivated by jealousy. Or at least, that's what Yakumo thinks right now. I'm not sure that I trust her to know her own motivations precisely at the moment.

So if my interpretation of this chapter is correct, then Yakumo actually agrees with your first evaluation of her behavior in 211. You were right about her.

That's why I brought up b29. There's a long history right there. Five months is plenty of time for guilt to build up.
That's silly. Yakumo's guilt for getting in Eri's way (if she has any) should not override Yakumo's perceived duty to defend her sister. Yakumo has not really stood in Eri's way except for a couple of isolated incidents. I mean, Yakumo hears that Eri tore Harima's manga to test his feelings for Tenma and suddenly she's crying about how awful she's been to Eri? And Eri's meanness to Tenma pales in comparison and should never have been punished? It does not compute.

If you're right and Yakumo didn't even connect the slap with the Harima situation initially, why is Yakumo suddenly so upset over it? Because she's been horribly victimizing Eri for months and now thinks that the (theoretically) justified slap was another injury to someone she has terribly wounded? If Yakumo thinks that, then she's completely crazy. Yakumo barely registers on Eri's radar.

Swampstorm

2007-03-04, 04:39

Now you're the one attacking reasoning of others.
Eh? Isn't that what we should be doing?

If everyone agrees, then there is no room for conversation. The fact that everyone is attacking each others' reasoning is what makes all of our points stronger. I usually come up with most of my favourite ideas while I'm desperately trying to figure out a counterargument to "the post above". :heh:

I'm not even an Onigirist, so your reply above is off target.
I wasn't addressing you in particular, but I do find it unusual to find myself supporting Onigiri more than the next person. It was a general statement that I made based on the responses that I had observed from a number of places. I just found it curious, that's all.

So if my interpretation of this chapter is correct, then Yakumo actually agrees with your first evaluation of her behavior in 211. You were right about her.
That's the irony that I was referring to. All of us were on opposite sides of the fence just a few chapters ago, and now we've all switched sides to match up with our respective points. :heh:

That's silly. Yakumo's guilt for getting in Eri's way (if she has any) should not override Yakumo's perceived duty to defend her sister. Yakumo has not really stood in Eri's way except for a couple of isolated incidents. I mean, Yakumo hears that Eri tore Harima's manga to test his feelings for Tenma and suddenly she's crying about how awful she's been to Eri? And Eri's meanness to Tenma pales in comparison and should never have been punished? It does not compute.

If you're right and Yakumo didn't even connect the slap with the Harima situation initially, why is Yakumo suddenly so upset over it? Because she's been horribly victimizing Eri for months and now thinks that the (theoretically) justified slap was another injury to someone she has terribly wounded? If Yakumo thinks that, then she's completely crazy. Yakumo barely registers on Eri's radar.
Alright. Try wontaek's theory, then. It works just as well. I said that it would be a useful counterargument later on, didn't I? ;)

Besides, I really need some sleep. :heh:

Owaranai Destiny

2007-03-04, 05:08

It's not so easy for me. Could you help me out?
Heard of the words 'Confusion'? 'Sadness'? 'Frustration'? The first one would be the most obvious though. I may be off, but guilt is just something that she just openly displayed. What's there to say that there are still some other emotions bottled up in her still, waiting for a release?
Something that's called 'character complexity' perhaps? No wait...since you don't believe in ambiguity and leaving a factor of suspense in this, I suppose there's nothing else Yakumo can offer in your eyes.

Sorry, how does this contradict the line you quoted? I vaguely got the sense that you disliked it and intended on refuting it, but I didn't really see that happen.
Well, you're right about one thing: I'm slightly irked at this line and a few others I can't be bothered to mention, but he gave me the impression that this statement was made out of simple ignorance, so I responded with something simple.

The funny thing is, after my earlier post, it seems like most Onigirists have chosen to opt for the jealousy route and drag Yakumo's character through the mud, rather than giving up a chance to prove that she's interested in Harima. Just a few chapters ago, you were so valiantly defending her actions as being pristine and pure, too. :heh:
The hell I was...Well, at least not me.:heh: I admit as much that the slap on her part was wrong even if she did it with the right intentions in her mind. Her character has already been in the mud ever so slightly once, though by no means did we do that voluntarily and calling her something akin to 'scum'. ;) No self-respecting Onigirist and people who can empathize with her actions would do that. Simply put, I don't think pinning blame on other people is going to make this any convincing than you already are. :)

I'm sorry to say that statement wasn't entirely convincing though, Marsala...:eyespin:

The Small One

2007-03-04, 05:11

Marsala

2007-03-04, 05:35

Something I don't really understand: What's with this "It hurts me inside"-line? Why is Yakumo feeling hurt about Eri beeing in love with Harima?
I already wrote, that beeing in love is totally out-of-character for Yakumo, but even if she loved Harima, it wouldn't make sense, that she is hurt by Eri also beeing in love with him... if it were the other way 'round, okay, but this doesn't make much sense... unless she is in love with Eri. :heh:
:confused:

Eri is free to pursue Harima (somewhat) openly, something that Yakumo feels she cannot do. That inspires envy in her. Also unmentioned as another thing Yakumo is burying because she can't say it out loud even to Sara is the hurt that Yakumo feels from Harima loving Tenma. See chapter 146, in which Yakumo finally feels like she has become Harima's strength only to see him inspired to write 120 pages by just talking with Tenma.

I'm sorry to say that statement wasn't entirely convincing though, Marsala...:eyespin:
Okay, that was a little bit exaggerated on my part.

Eurys

2007-03-04, 06:01

I already wrote, that beeing in love is totally out-of-character for Yakumo
How is being in love totally OOC for Yakumo? I'm not provoking you, I'm sincerely asking the question.
After all, many readers speculated or believed that she was already in love (I'd rather call it a crush, I don't believe any of those characters are really "in love") with Harima. So it doesn't exactly come out of nowhere if she indeed loves him, no?

I wonder what's the opinion(s) of the japanese fandom (or just the casual readers) on this. Is it that divided? :heh:

Me? Well, since Yakumo mentionned Eri loving Harima, I automatically thought she realized she slapped Eri because she was jealous. Not that I think it could lead to HarimaxYakumo (I have a slight preference for HarimaxTenma anyway :heh: ), but that was the first thing that crossed my mind...

Well, I'll go back to lurking.

-Ajax-

2007-03-04, 10:36

Ah all this discussion reminds me of the slap chapter, good times.

I wonder what's the opinion(s) of the japanese fandom

I'm dying to know this.

gekko

2007-03-04, 11:50

indeed, i would love to see another favourite pairing poll. I think the mangaka doesn't oversee those polls (too bad internet polls have no effect :))

Streetor

2007-03-04, 12:27

I'm glad I didn't get involved in the slap chapter discussion.

Although personally I figured Yakumo did it soley to defend her sister.

-Ajax-

2007-03-04, 13:03

I wonder what the Japanese fans have to say about this chapter most specifically. xD
Their discussions and what not, if only.

Adam E

2007-03-04, 14:31

I know that for young aspiring writers or mangaka, one deadline missed can easily mean end of career. Harima's word, ' There is no more... ' sounds just like someone who realize that he has used up any indulgence granted upon him and one more mistake may mean end of the line.
At chapter 214, Harima thought he can make another copy of his manga. We know from 215, that he no longer think so, from his repeated line of ' I don't know ... ' Please stop thinking about this as score one for Eri or Yakumo stuff.

I think you're treating Harima's manga troubles much too seriously. Until he actually does miss a deadline and his manga woes are treated seriously instead of comically, I'm not going to be worried about him missing a deadline. Harima's lost his motivation several times before (when he learned that Karasuma was his idol, before he left on a sea journey, this chapter) and something always happens to inspire him again. If Harima is having problems motivating himself now, then something is almost definitely going to happen in the near future to get him going again.

Having a shortage of time doesn't seem to matter, since he manages to finish a 120-page manuscript in about a night in Chapter 158, which should be impossible. As a result of all this, Harima's manga troubles have not been portrayed as very serious; hence, I don't get worried about his manga, and I don’t think you should be worrying about it, either.

Are you saying that Yakumo now knows that Eri loves Harima, which somehow means that Yakumo was wrong to defend the innocent Tenma from Eri?

The issue isn’t with Yakumo having trouble justifying Eri’s actions, but with justifying her own actions. In case you didn’t know, physically attacking people is a terrible thing to do, according to society. Specifically, in Japanese society, attacking your senior is a very bad thing to do.

Are you saying that Yakumo now knows that defending Tenma was wrong to do in and of itself? If so, why?

She’s realized that Eri isn’t entirely evil, and can now no longer justify her own actions. You’re focusing too much on Yakumo being able to justify Eri when her problem lies in her ability to justify her own actions.

Why would learning the truth about Eri's feelings change Yakumo's mind about defending her sister?

It’s easier to justify yourself for attacking someone when you perceive them as a villain, instead of a real human being. There’s a reason why armies abuse propaganda in order to fool soldiers into thinking that their enemies are villains.

The aggressor's motivations shouldn't matter, just her actions.

This is your own belief, and you should be able to realize that Yakumo will not always act according to your own beliefs. Just because you think that Yakumo’s motivations don’t matter, does not mean that Yakumo thinks they don’t matter.

You don't seem to understand the point of this chapter. It is to tell us that Yakumo has finally reached a breaking point, that there is change in her, that she finally realises that there's something inside her. Thus far the impression she has given us is keeping mostly everything to herself, since we hardly know a lot about her thoughts unlike Eri or Harima.

My understanding from the chapter is that Yakumo was time bomb that just went off in Chapter 215. Now, time bombs don’t just suddenly go off without giving us an indication beforehand; they tick. By looking at previous events, I’m looking for those ticks in order to determine if they played a part in Yakumo’s breakdown. Since none of those ticks appear to be present in Chapter 207 when Yakumo decided on her own volition to get someone else to help Harima with his manga, I concluded that the manga wasn’t a contributing factor to Yakumo’s loss of control.

Eri is free to pursue Harima (somewhat) openly, something that Yakumo feels she cannot do. That inspires envy in her.

There is no mention of envy from Yakumo in her confession, where she seems to be completely honest to Sara. If jealousy of Eri’s feelings for Harima was a motivator, it would have been mentioned by Yakumo in her confession.

Also unmentioned as another thing Yakumo is burying because she can't say it out loud even to Sara is the hurt that Yakumo feels from Harima loving Tenma.

Most likely unmentioned because Yakumo is not feeling hurt from Harima liking Tenma.

See chapter 146, in which Yakumo finally feels like she has become Harima's strength only to see him inspired to write 120 pages by just talking with Tenma.

I read Chapter 146, and there’s no sign of Yakumo being hurt by this, which there should be if this is contributing to Yakumo’s pain in Chapter 215.

How is being in love totally OOC for Yakumo? I'm not provoking you, I'm sincerely asking the question.

From Yakumo's first appearance, her love problems have been centered around her not being able to find someone she loves. For Yakumo to suddenly have problems with someone she loves instead of problems finding someone to love, it's out of character for her, especially considering there is nothing clearly showing that she's found someone she can love.

wontaek

2007-03-04, 16:05

From Yakumo's first appearance, her love problems have been centered around her not being able to find someone she loves. For Yakumo to suddenly have problems with someone she loves instead of problems finding someone to love, it's out of character for her, especially considering there is nothing clearly showing that she's found someone she can love.

I strongly disagree. The main problem with Yakumo is that she can hear the thoughts of any male who likes her, and those thoughts usually bothered her much. The reason why she could interact with Harima more than any other males was the fact that she could not hear his thoughts, thus putting her at ease. If Harima takes a liking for Yakumo, she will begin to hear his thoughts, and that would disturb her greatly, for she would lose the only male whose presence does not disrupt her inner peace and stability. This is the biggest reason why she keeps denying that she has any romantic interest in Harima. Yakumo must address this, and either that ability has to disappear or she has to accept and make use of her ability for the happiness of herself and the people she likes. I hope it will be the later as the mere disappearance is more a boring resolution.

Yakumo's support for Harima X Tenma can be viewed in similar line. If Harima goes out with Tenma, Yakumo can be near Harima without her peace being disrupted. She thought she could be content being Harima's manager, assistant, and manga editor, while Tenma will be Harima's wife and love of his life. If Harima goes to Eri, this no longer is possible. If Harima gives up on the manga, again, this won't be possible as Harima will have even less reason to be with Yakumo. Is this enough of reason for her outburst in ch. 215? I don't think so. I believe she may also have realized that she may have selfishly dictated the future for Harima, Tenma, and even Eri, and she feels very bad about meddling in affairs of so many of her seniors ( Senpai ). She may also realize that she wouldn't have been content even if things went according to her plans. She probably feels very lost, suddenly realizing the future she unconsciously pursed may no longer be possible, nor desirable, that future was something that pleased only herself while possibly sacrificing the happiness of others she cared about, and she might be responsible for ruining her future as well as future of many others. I think this makes more sense and why she thinks so bad about herself. As I keep saying, Yakumo's problem isn't just about love. I believe it would be good for Yakumo to find some time away from Harima and Tenma, and talk about the whole thing with Eri and Akira, who probably knows everything.

biomy

2007-03-04, 16:16

oh god i can see forever

if hitting a senior is a bad thing to do, i guess smacking juniors is a-ok

tobacco is wacko if you're a teen, but a-ok if a pre-teen, infant or adult

good thing we're in america where at least if a senior is a dumbass jerk at least you can show him the door

the only thing that really inspires or sets off harima is tenma, he has no self-motivation

without such, he would be devoid of drive

yes, you lilim are aware that the a.t. field is the wall of mind that everyone has

last i recall, i don't remember getting deluded about the enemy when i signed up for the army, i got suckered in by the benefits they said were there

and speaking of which, time for the pass and review, and i ain't quoting anybody because i'm lazy

if everyone actually paid attention to detail SOMETHING THEY EMPHASIZE IN THE ARMY there wouldn't be all this questioning surrounding what yakumo did, why she did it, how it all came to it, when she came to realize things, where did she come from, where did she go, where did she come from, cotton eye joe

but people are trying to be all rationalizing about these things, even when they talk about the human characteristics

if that seems a little contrived, here's a way to explain it. you guys are being awfully mathematical and methodical in how you're trying to explain what's going on, and when you're trying to explain the logical characteristics of i (imaginary square root of -1?) everyone just starts jumbling up perceptions of what they think irrationality really means

it's really simple to picture what's going on with yakumo if you looked at things like her past child life living with tenma, all those shadows she's faced of her personality and self reflection, implications and interactions with others, etc, and you really don't have to add things up on a calculator

because of this chapter i think i became more capable of sympathizing with yakumo, and it doesn't even have to justify the slap(s) or anything, i mean, i can still think those were pretty dumb gestures, regardless of whether eri is a senior (who really cares ...in AMERICA), or if it's because she's competitive toward her which is seemingly out of character at least on the surface (which is a shadow part of her personality) or whatnot, because yakumo has shown in this chapter (215) that she's capable of being human

and i think that's what most of the people here are forgetting, even if they talk about all this "oh yeah she is human i know this because of all my psychology and sociology skillz0rz cuz of my degreez and anal analytical analyses werrrd *skateboards*"

and people barely scrape the surface even still with their psychology and sociology hax0ring skillz(tm) and it's ridiculous and ignoring the human side of things

we don't really know yet for sure if yakumo has any internal repressed upsetness over harima's affections for tenma, but that can be related to her past life where tenma used to seem so annoying to her. but she grew out of it? it's possible she's subconsciously ambivalent, and we don't know that either and the only real indicator is when she meets with those ghosts in her mind

people talk as if they're so sure of something

i need a smokebreak or two

Adam E

2007-03-04, 16:30

I strongly disagree. The main problem with Yakumo is that she can hear the thoughts of any male who likes her, and those thoughts usually bothered her much.

This was one of the problems for Yakumo. However, in case you haven't noticed, Kobayashi hasn't done anything with Yakumo's ESP for a long time; he seems to have forgotten that Yakumo can read the minds of people that like her. Likely, because it isn’t Yakumo’s major issue.

Now, think about it, why was her telepathy a problem for her? It kept her from getting close to guys that like her and prevented her from finding someone she loves, which is Yakumo’s major problem.

The reason why she could interact with Harima more than any other males was the fact that she could not hear his thoughts, thus putting her at ease.

Yes, Harima is her crutch.

If Harima takes a liking for Yakumo, she will begin to hear his thoughts, and that would disturb her greatly, for she would lose one male she could feel at ease with. This is the biggest reason why she keeps denying that she has any romantic interest in Harima.

Why are people assuming that she’s denying a romantic interest in Hairma when the possibility that she simply doesn’t have one is just as, if not more, plausible?

You need to prove that she’s even denying romantic interest in Harima before this point is valid.

Yakumo must address this, and either that ability has to disappear or she has to accept and make use of her ability for the happiness of herself and the person she likes. I hope it will be the later as the mere disappearance is more a boring resolution.

I agree that Yakumo needs to address her problems; this is why I think that she needs to confront people like Hanai, instead of hanging around “safe” guys like Harima.

wontaek

2007-03-04, 17:00

This was one of the problems for Yakumo. However, in case you haven't noticed, Kobayashi hasn't done anything with Yakumo's ESP for a long time; he seems to have forgotten that Yakumo can read the minds of people that like her. Likely, because it isn’t Yakumo’s major issue.

Now, think about it, why was her telepathy a problem for her? It kept her from getting close to guys that like her and prevented her from finding someone she loves, which is Yakumo’s major problem.

Yes, Harima is her crutch.

Why are people assuming that she’s denying a romantic interest in Hairma when the possibility that she simply doesn’t have one is just as, if not more, plausible?

You need to prove that she’s even denying romantic interest in Harima before this point is valid.

I agree that Yakumo needs to address her problems; this is why I think that she needs to confront people like Hanai, instead of hanging around “safe” guys like Harima.

All I'm stating is the she has answered negative to anyone asking her about her relation with Harima, and she never asked the question to herself. Right now, I am not concerned whether she is denying any romantic interest in Harima because she doesn't have any interest in Harima, or she has interest but is in state of denial. Kobayashi Jin left things ambivalent about this, but still, in either case, she doesn't want Harima suddenly fawning over her, nor wish to pursue Harima.

I don't think she needs to confront Hanai. In fact, why should a girl hang around with a guy without any good reason to do so? The people Yakumo needs to worry about right now are, in order of their importance, Tenma, Eri ( the recent event needs to come to resolution for the sake of both of them ), Sara ( she is the one lending the shoulder to cry on ), Harima ( he doesn't need her as of this moment ), Akira ( the know it all ), her classmates, and then the boys who pursue/bug her which includes Hanai.