View Full Version : Open letter to all those parties who are traslating anime Peacemaker Kurogane
daedalus6
2003-12-06, 19:46
Ok so all of you read this and disscuss about it. Am I wrong or ... Is this just one of those things like what happened in Ghost in the shell stand alone complex were different fansubgroups heard Different languages in same parts.
Ok so this is the English parts as I hear em.
The corrections are made to [anime-keep] ep 8 (I should have made it from lunar ep 3 because frankly in some parts it sounds more right...but...)
You gonna feel so
(be)
(feel =be)
That part sounds about right. I would say its more like be so... but feel so makes sense also. No complaining.
Konya no tame no tobikkiri miraa.
DINNER
(miraa =dinner)
That miraa is english word DINNER it sounds excatly like it .. also its said in a way they say other english words... I cant say that your translation makes any sense in this part. I would say its more like Sexy Gilrs just for DINNER. <- or something Im quite sure about that dinner part.
Baibereesho
Actually i have no idea how japanise say their vibration but you should make it their word or just vibration ..(he just might be saying it really badly!) but Iw see so many diffrent words in this spot by different sub groups so somebody just gotto be wrong.
btw. Anime-keep Should really try different fonts and less effects in this karaoke part.. ITs just damn hard to read and last words dissapears right when you see it. ( actually you cant even sing along because you dont see the text advance...)
so this is the most wrong in your translation.
I almost think this gotto be a joke about japanise singer pronouncing words bad because this should be obvious from the the context...
Aisuru yue ni satorei
Sadness
(satorei = sadness)
Satorei IS sadness no mistake abou it! It also fits with the words because there were happiness few lines back! He pronounces it like Sad-de-nes or something completely wrong ofcourse but its still sadness no mistake abou it!
Ok so please correct there errors and continue making quality animefansubs...
Everybody feel free to use these in your future transation of Peacemaker kurogene
You dont even have to thank me or mention me anywhere.
__________________
<snip confusing post>
You're not being very readable with your post. Try to organize it a bit better. And please do not crosspost. As for song translations, it's often hard to hear what the singers are saying and groups often times spend more time on the karaoke effect than the actual song translation.
What he said above, and is this refering to a song? If this is a song, there ARE offical lyrics (usually). Most groups just dont care enough to get them. They dont care about being accurate.
Edit: added last sentance
CompShrink
2003-12-07, 17:39
Zalas: he was not saying satorei translates to sadness, but that it's soposed to be engrish sadness and the kareoker heard it wrong.
By the way, the "r" is clear, and there is no "n" sound, nor and "s" sound at the end, so i don't know why you think this... I listed to it on 2 pairs of speakers btw, it's definately satorei.
They may have left baibereesho like that because in the official lyrics it left it in katakana rather than english (don't know in this case, but have seen that happen before) or just because they did such a bad job pronouncing it compared to the other english words... and japanese has no v sound, b is the closest, so it's understandable that they had a hard time pronouncing it, and personally it seems reasonable to leave it in direct katakana transcription.
the "feel" sounds nothing like "be" you can hear to "l" and the "f"...
And i like the style of their kareoke text. In that context, to each his own.
User_Name
2003-12-13, 20:07
im not gonna bother check your other corrections, but im VERY sure that he says 'feel' not 'be'.
Fansubber's song translations are wrong quite often. But i, someone who grew up speaking japanese, get them wrong too, & subbbers are only human. Try turning on one of ur music & writing down the lyrics & compare it o the offical lyrics, u'll usually get some words wrong too.
But Japanese's lyrics in english are worse than fansubber's translation. They often dont make sense & contain grammar errors often(lyrics like "I wanna rocks" or "I believe in drastic my soul")
So bottom line, dont even bother with crappy jap's engrish translated into english.
SirCanealot
2003-12-16, 07:28
If you ARE talking about a op/ed...
The last few translators we've took on (thanks guys!! :P), our other editor, Kcl, basically just gave them the E's Otherwise Opening to translate (which makes NO sense in A.F.K.s version, Anime-Cookies version, our first version or our second, so its always a good laugh). As Kcl said, songs are usely harder to translate since the Japanese singers pronoce stuff softly, so it can be hard to make it out from other words(so this, of course is a good test of translation abilitiy). Also, I'm under the assumption that like music in English, words are played around with ALOT, so they dont make huge ammounts of sense even in their native lanuage to a 100% native speaker.
Also as an editor whos done the English lyrics for most of our songs, editing can be a pain, especially if you like the lyrics to go in even slightly with the music(sorta slightly like dubtitleing I guess). Meaning is sometimes lost and changed...(again, how the original translator presents the song in English is a good test, as finding ways to express the Japanese in English can be quite hard).
btw. Anime-keep Should really try different fonts and less effects in this karaoke part.. ITs just damn hard to read and last words dissapears right when you see it.
While I have something against "over the top karaoke", it's just so cool I cant help muself. Gone are the days of the letters sticking around on the screen, getting full up and buggering off, now the letters must fly around and fade and stuff, or else j00 sux. Imo, at least good karaoke where the words slide onto the screen (damn this is making limit ammounts of sense) should at least slide on a little in advance of the word...
Oh well, I should get back to work now or something...
LordBrian
2003-12-16, 07:40
I personally think that more and more people are realizing that "over the top" karaoke is both ugly and worse than useless. It really defeats the purpose of karaoke when it a) is impossible to read without getting nauseous, b) when it's not onscreen long enough to read, and c) when it makes the OP virtually unwatchable. Though Keep's recent karaoke efforts certainly do serve one purpose: they're the best argument for softsubs I've ever seen.
http://music_8.dot.thebbs.jp/1066446587.html
No CD yet :)
SirCanealot
2003-12-16, 14:42
I don't see how many people could be relising Level 2 effects (which are basic movent effects etc, Level 3 = Well check our E's karaoke, no other English groups have Level 3 karaoke yet, we woulden't for for some reason the person who does ours is French :P) are both ugly and unreadable, when very few sub groups even use them. Most groups go with simple level 1 karaoke. Also, as very few people do complain, I'm assumeing most people like flashy karaoke. If we go with, 100 people like the effects, around 1 or 2 are going to actually say "I like!", where as the 20 or so that hate on it, 5 or 6 of that small specific group will say "I have a problem with this", which is good, feedback.
Now I suppose its all down to the group in question. If they think it makes the op unwatchable, thats fine. I personally love the stuff and look forward to hopeing the group has used good effects for the series. And as everyone else in our group loves his karaoke (Kernoladge be his name :P) I doubt it will change any time soon. If you really abhor crapy karaoke, why don't you learn how to do it yourself heh. You can make some really nice effects and still leave the karaoke completely readable :P
Allthough karaoke isn't exactly easy, but its not hard, if you have a head for a bit of code anyway...
I don't see how many people could be relising Level 2 effects (which are basic movent effects etc, Level 3 = Well check our E's karaoke, no other English groups have Level 3 karaoke yet, we woulden't for for some reason the person who does ours is French :P) are both ugly and unreadable, when very few sub groups even use them.
Would you care to define Level 1,2,3 karaoke effects please? :)
LordBrian
2003-12-16, 16:46
If you really abhor crapy karaoke, why don't you learn how to do it yourself heh. If I abhor crappy karaoke, why would I want to learn how to do crappy karaoke myself? It's far easier to just not watch groups that use it, and makes far more sense.
SirCanealot
2003-12-16, 21:49
Heh, you can make the sort of karaoke you like then. Thats why.
Would you care to define Level 1,2,3 karaoke effects please?
Level 1 : Select fonts and color, timing, use of the basic karaoke command
Level 2 : Use "basic effects"
Level 3 : make "advanced effects" using many many techniques
Or atleast thats somewhat the words of the person who does our karaoke :P
Level 2 effects is somewhat, what English fansubbers are now heading into.
I am pretty sure Hikaru no Go subs in English have "Level 3" karaoke. The letters were flying all over the farking screen.
The karaoke in my fansubs is Level 0 :D (no animation whatsoever). It's good enough for the Japanese encoders, so it's good enough for me.
I don't see how many people could be relising Level 2 effects (which are basic movent effects etc, Level 3 = Well check our E's karaoke, no other English groups have Level 3 karaoke yet, we woulden't for for some reason the person who does ours is French :P) are both ugly and unreadable, when very few sub groups even use them. Most groups go with simple level 1 karaoke.
Only group? Don't be kidding yourself ...
My god, if I hear Anime-Blitz pimping themselves one more time ... =_=
Do explain how my E's opening makes "no sense at all."
complich8
2003-12-17, 01:05
I AM NEPTUNE, GOD OF THE SEAS! I SINK SHIPS AND CAUSE EARTHQUAKES.
No you're not. I am, and you know nothing of my work.
A lot of groups are using "advanced" karaoke stuff now. I've seen some internal stuff from my group that does some absolutely insane things with letters flying around and spiralling around each other. My groups subs of read or die TV also come to mind, particularly the opening credits. Simple glows and fades and moves aren't much, but there's some extremely complex stuff coming out of a lot of groups these days.
If all you're seeing is the basic two-color karaoke, line of color moving through it, etc .... you're watching smaller/newer groups subs, or the work of people who don't care about karaoke as much as they care about the whole product (ie: HQA doesn't do karaoke, they are big/old but just don't do it as a policy).
I can't even begin to list off how many incredible things I've seen eise and turles do in AonE karaokeing everything they can get their hands on, and doing incredible jobs with pretty effects (like the chrno crusade op/ed karaokes, and pmk's op, for example). Most stuff is just downright impressive. I've seen some crazy stuff from anime-kraze, and anime-keep is no slouch in that department either. R-F's job on hng was downright great too, and I've seen good things from a LOT of other groups, karaoke/sfx-wise.
I don't know where this whole "levels" thing comes in though .... I would say its more important for karaoke to look good than to look complex: it makes me think of a beautiful woman with a single thin gold chain that accentuates her beauty, versus the same woman with 3 lbs of jewelry around her neck detracting from her appeal. Your levels of karaoke thing doesn't address that at all though. Karaoke shouldn't as a rule be flashier than the video under it, IMO, since it is just icing on the cake.
Ok.. I'm seeing such stupidity here so I think I'll turn caps on.
LOOK IN THE END OF THE VIDEO OK. YOU'LL NOTICE THE SONG TITLE 'YOU GONNA FEEL'. GUESS WHAT.. THAT LINE SAYS YOU GONNA FEEL, YOU KNOW WHY... IT'S THE NAME OF THE SONG.. DUH.
So anyways.
Oh and who gives a damn about everyone's "elite karaoke". Oh, You're so accomplished.. give me a break. First off, I feel no sympathy for you. I think I'll go out, watch a movie, etc. I'll do stuff other than spend God knows how much time on karaoke. You know WHY I don't do very complex karoake unless I'm ABSOLUTELY BORED (back in high school summer vacation)? You're not paying me to do it! If you want me to take some of MY TIME to do a really snazzy karaoke, you damn better pay me :P. I know you'll all be saying "Oh you are teh sux" or whatever n00b phrases you use, but that's besides the point. The point of karaoke is ACTUALLY do sing along to the song.. if your song titles are flying left and right and all over the place.. guess what.. people aren't going to know what the fux they're singing XD. Maybe you can because you've been analyzing and studying the karaoke for awhile but.. common honestly...
ok, damn that was a great stress relief after a term paper :P.
Tyreal
The raw bitch :D
People who demand a flashy karaoke are shallow. I don't care if they don't watch my subs, no loss there.
The people who cator to these shallow stupid people....I don't think they have any reason to make a flashy karaoke other than to make their typeset look more "elite" than the other groups doing the same series and differentiate themselves from everyone else. Because face it, all these punk groups who like flashing, size-changing, scrolling, and fading karaokes flock to the same damn series.
NEWSFLASH: A flashing, size-changing, scrolling, and fading karaoke does NOT increase your penis! A flashing, size-changing, scrolling, and fading karaoke will NOT make up for the fact that your encoder doesn't know how to encode!
PS: Tyreal I'm glad you're not an editor, I can't understand anything there =x
My personal levels of karaoke:
1) All instant fill ({\k})
2) All fill-as-it's-sang ({\K})
3) A combination of 1 and 2
4) Same effects for each syllable
5) Combination of 3 and 4, different effects for longer / stretched out words
6) Non-textsub stuff
Level 1 usually isn't used unless it fits for the song, like the PMK ones, or if the group is one of the more inexperienced ones. I personally only use level 2-4, (occasionally 1) cuz 5 is just hard to find the right syllables to use it for, and cuz I'm a lazy programmer who lets his programs do the work for him. And I hate non-textsub stuff, so die level 6 users.
Aside from the karaoke itself, line effects are important, too. Some common ones would be fading in and out after the line is sang, change colors with the background, etc.
Usually the craziest stuff done in karaoke is also the most unreadable or seizure inducing, too. Mad props to karaokers who can do crazy stuff that is readable and does not induce seizures. STAY AWAY FROM KARAOKE EFFECTS THAT DON'T LET YOU SEE WHAT'S COMING UP!
Okay... as for PMK, I think that animeone's op is really nice, and my personal favourite out of all of them. I liked lunar's too; it was simple and nicely styled. Same with S-C's, it was nice and simple.
Do you guys really care if it's gonna or gotta..? I mean... it was meant to be engrish. Who cares which group's transcription is less engrish or closer to what was intended? Personally I only watch the romaji for openings or endings and follow along with the karaoke. I'd care more about the main dialogue's translation instead...
SirCanealot
2003-12-17, 06:21
I am pretty sure Hikaru no Go subs in English have "Level 3" karaoke. The letters were flying all over the farking screen.
Heh nope, I loved that karaoke. But it's not a "level 3" effect. If I remember rightly, they mostly used some move effects, even I can do that :P(allthough I woulden't bother trying...). The Engrish was done using another "level 2" effect, which I don't think is hugely time cossuming if you know how (which I don't, haha).
I might try and torrent our op/ed, so people can see what Level 3 karaoke is. If anyof you can be bothered, come on our Irc group and download E's 26, or even the first 30 megs for the opening. The first few lines are level 3 effects.
Only group? Don't be kidding yourself ...
My god, if I hear Anime-Blitz pimping themselves one more time ...
Fine, only group I or our karaoke'er has seen. And I watch quite a bit of anime, I do. Perhaps I'll check out AOnes Read or Dream opening, I've been meaning to pick up that series for a while anyway. The point is he's French, and in France they REALLY care about having cool effects in their subs.
Andway, I'm not pimping us, say what you will, I'll keep my personal opinions about our group and myself too myself. I'm pimping the person who does our karaoke. I'm his #1 fan for a reason. He owns you all for free :P
Do explain how my E's opening makes "no sense at all."
the reality in front of my eyes
is the only thing i will make real
(from the original second translation we had)
Does that really make sense to you? Especially from a editing point of view.
I think I'll go out, watch a movie, etc. I'll do stuff other than spend God knows how much time on karaoke.
Well done. You're doing what YOU want to do. While our karaoke'er, who spends up to 60 hours doing effects is doing what HE wants to do. Don't even get me started on how we spend our time, most of us are geeks here heh.
the reality in front of my eyes
is the only thing i will make real
(from the original second translation we had)
You must be blind?
That definitely isn't in anything I've done.
Kernoladge
2003-12-17, 09:41
waouh ! I heard my name...
At first :
yes, i'm french, and i'm not very good in english (i open many times my dictionnary :p ).
I know that french isn't really appreciate in us's fansub, it's because some fu***** guys who think they're at home... So i'm not one of them.
Second :
I don't know all the us fansubs. Just d/l some Naruto ( :D ) and releases needed for french fansub (we haven't japanese translator so eng --> fr).
So, SirC thanks to what you've said, it's great to see people who like your work.
For the different levels, it's just ASS levels (chrno crusade from anime-keep is After Effect and not Advanced Sub Station).
More than SirC have said, the second level is utilisation of simple \fr, \fs, \move, \fad, \1234c, \1234a... ect...
the main difference with the third is the good utilisation of \org and combine many effects and \org for a great looking subs.
I haven't saw all the us's karaokes, but i never saw/heard of a very beautiful karaoke... I'm not saying that we need many effects who go all over the screen (i remember a karaoke of one piece : not very difficult but very long to do, and horrible to see), i'm saying that french fansub is better (many of our teams are... really... comic :D ).
But i think we can do better than it's done. I'm not "the best karaoke maker of the world"!!! really not!!! i have my senpai too ;) . But i think i can make better karaoke than many other.
You can say that i should use After Effect for better karaoke... but i dislike it. Put pictures of the video modify the video, we can't see difference between subs and video, that's why.
The last point i want to say, is that us fansub is very fast. So it's fast karaokes in it... You don't take the time to training, to make something and delete because it's too bad...
For me : i don't speak japanese, so translation are the same, timing is good for all teams (easy work ;)), encode depend on the raw we found.
So, for me just the typesetting and the effects can give me a good or a bad opinion. And that work is too many times botched.
SirCanealot
2003-12-17, 10:22
You must be blind?
That definitely isn't in anything I've done.
And you've seen how many translations of the E's Otherwose opening song? I've seen err... 6 actually :P
all making a pretty limited ammount of sense.
And yes, that was the man himself, Kernoladge.
Thank you.... I have no idea what anything other than \fad and \move is, haha.
I just finished watching your "level 3" karaoke, and I must say...
IT IS DISGUSTING. I can't believe I actually fell for your shameless self-promotion and took the time to download your E's. Not only have I seen that effect done before (XF's Narue no Sekai), but the idea of showing kana LETTER BY LETTER is ridiculous. Doesn't that render the whole point of karaoke useless? I thought we wanted to sing a long to it, not look at a letter flash by and go 'huh'?
As for that whole French vs. USA, I think you're stereotypicalizing many fansubbers for subbing in English. If I wanted to do that, I could say that the French are honking fags who wear shiny metallic shirts because they like flashy things. I'd love to quote the entire post Kernoladge made just for the sheer irony and idiocy found in it, but I suppose it merits some things to be discussed.
I know that french isn't really appreciate in us's fansub, it's because some fu***** guys who think they're at home... So i'm not one of them.
French fansubbing (or any other language) is not appreciated by English fansubbers mostly because they come to beg us for scripts or just steal them without consent.
I don't know all the us fansubs. Just d/l some Naruto ( :D ) and releases needed for french fansub (we haven't japanese translator so eng --> fr).
.
.
.
I haven't saw all the us's karaokes, but i never saw/heard of a very beautiful karaoke...
Okay, from a person that just watches Naruto and the shows for a single french subbing group, that means a lot.
Put pictures of the video modify the video, we can't see difference between subs and video, that's why.
Uh, you mean people would think that the show would air with the English subtitles? How stupid do you think people are?
The last point i want to say, is that us fansub is very fast. So it's fast karaokes in it...
Do I really need to explain this one? What you are suggesting, sire, is analogous to saying "Americans sub English anime."
As for you, SirCanealot, I don't think you have enough judgemental skills to evaluate translations of different groups, if you have no knowledge of Japanese as you said. Sure, the editing can be evaluated based on the fluidity of the translations, but A) Your English sucks, and B) Yeah, your English sucks. That translation you claim that Strato made, even if he did not, makes perfect sense to me.
Not only have I seen that effect done before (XF's Narue no Sekai), but the idea of showing kana LETTER BY LETTER is ridiculous. Doesn't that render the whole point of karaoke useless? I thought we wanted to sing a long to it, not look at a letter flash by and go 'huh'?
Quiet, taiyaki, I think the vocals are coming back!
さ~~~~~
Oh snap, there goes a "sa"!
い~~~~~
There's "i", racing down the freeway!
も~~~~~
That's... uh...
悪~~~~~
oh, "mo'! Wait, what was that kanji? I missed it!
い~~~~~
That's "i" again!
カ ラ オ ケ
Oho, those came all at once so I can read them. It's "karaoke"
Don't you see the benefit of Level 3 effects? Now you don't actually have to know what it says, you can just admire the pretty letters flying by!
SirCanealot
2003-12-17, 12:57
I just finished watching your "level 3" karaoke, and I must say...
IT IS DISGUSTING. I can't believe I actually fell for your shameless self-promotion and took the time to download your E's. Not only have I seen that effect done before (XF's Narue no Sekai), but the idea of showing kana LETTER BY LETTER is ridiculous. Doesn't that render the whole point of karaoke useless? I thought we wanted to sing a long to it, not look at a letter flash by and go 'huh'?
Now, there is a limited ammount of effects one can use when doing karaoke. Of course they've almost all been done before. I've seen Karaoke just using the basic \K and \fad commands before. Does that make it disgusting to me, someone who likes flashy stuff? Well... no...
And sing along, do you? You can sing along to a kanji sub track can you? Doing much with the kanji track is basically a waste of time. Out of all the people who watch your fansubs theres going to be only a few that can understand much of it.
And you know. Karaoke, like many other things, is evolveing. You know, thats your opinion that our karaoke is disgusting... Well thats fine, you can have your opinion, you're entitled to it(I'm also entitled to dump a metric ton of a certain material in your garden on Christmas Eve, as long as I dont get caught. You don't want to know what that material is, folks). I like that sort of karaoke, thats my opinion. Do you see me going around saying how simpler karaoke is disgusting? No, because I apreciate. I don't hate. Allthough I DO critisize (again, cant be bothered to get the correct spelling for that)
As for that whole French vs. USA, I think you're stereotypicalizing many fansubbers for subbing in English. If I wanted to do that, I could say that the French are honking fags who wear shiny metallic shirts because they like flashy things.
Well, I have to say the French do some funny things sometimes, I'm going to fully admit that, but Kernoladge was only stateing a pure and honest fact - French subbers like flashy karaoke more and are willing to spend more time on it and they are willing to spend ages over effects before they release their fansub.
Is that wrong? Wrong, because its not "American", or English? I see...
I'd love to quote the entire post Kernoladge made just for the sheer irony and idiocy found in it, but I suppose it merits some things to be discussed.
Yes irony, found in the post of someone who meant no harm and doesn't even know English very well. I mean, are you just picking on him now?
French fansubbing (or any other language) is not appreciated by English fansubbers mostly because they come to beg us for scripts or just steal them without consent.
Well, thats a nice thing to say, isn't it? You know. Non English. Rest of the world. Eg, not American. All scum are they? I mean, not your exact words. But close enough to the goal to score, mate.
Do I really need to explain this one? What you are suggesting, sire, is analogous to saying "Americans sub English anime."
No, what he meant was English subbers spend less time on effects. Us = English. A large ammount of people on the internet are American and comming from someone whos native lanuage is not English (allthough saying that Kernoladge speaks good English...), the generalisation(yes I know I miss spelled this, I cant be bothered to find the proper spelling for a petty forum post, if this was a fansub script, yes I'd find the proper spelling) of US = English stands. You know, thats really quite a small thing to hold against someone. I think you are in Projection...
As for you, SirCanealot, I don't think you have enough judgemental skills to evaluate translations of different groups, if you have no knowledge of Japanese as you said. Sure, the editing can be evaluated based on the fluidity of the translations, but A) Your English sucks, and B) Yeah, your English sucks. That translation you claim that Strato made, even if he did not, makes perfect sense to me.
Edit: I just checked, I didn't claim Strato made any translations. Try reading more carefully next time before running your mouth.
Hey, in my opinion, my opinion is one of the best things you can ever have, when dealing with a wide variety of diverse subjects. And hey, 4 years, Medie Studies experience. Did you know red and blue go with sci-fi? We automatically asociate (spelling...) red and blue with sci-fi and technology? And about san-serif and serif fonts (male and female)? I can use this knowledge to help in judgeing karaoke, to an extent. Can you?
And what? When did I say I have no knowledge of Japanese? I have some knowledge. Enough to help me in editing and timing somewhat. And you saying my English sucks is based on what exactly? Forum posts? Do you really think I proof read madly and pick specific words out to suit a given context on a forum? Well, I don't. My level of writing in no way is shown in my forum posts, as I am now just writing mostly as I would talk in real life, so I am more or less devoid of writing styles. I can write in a wide variety of styles fairly well and I believe the editing I did in E's Otherwise towards the end of the series was fairly decent, allthough by far not the best editing ever. When dealing with a fansub script I time the subtitles too, so I sit there for hours at times deciding what words fit best here, what words a character would used, based on how he speaks those words and what I know of the character (which will make editing a new series slightly more difficult). I can also write well on several registers. I really think your claim that my English sucks is backed by little other than forum posts, or perhaps even me talking on Irc, which is usely even worse than my forum posts. If you'd like to see a example of my actually sitting myself down and writing, allthough it will still be filled with typos still, as I do have spelling and grammar problems, I believe you will see it is at a much higher level than any of my forum posts, that is, unless your mind is biased with hate...
And what translation did Strato post? The text I posted was from the E's Otherwise opening, I was showing that the opening made no sense, therefor it is a good example of testing a translators Japanese and English abilities and that the original topic, flaming groups for slightly misstranslating songs is a bit harsh, as they are very easy to get wrong. I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I full admit I rarely make full sense on forums...
Now, I'm actually going to PROOF READ and edit this, to try and reflect a slightly more formal register, in which I will quickly try and diverge my speech to a higher register, in order to try and make me look like I have more knowledge than you. Ahh well. Its a dogs life, eh? Lucky bastards....
Yup, editing done. I can analylise this post now and say why I said half the crap I said in the way I did. If I was an examiner, I'd stamp a bigass "A*" on my forhead now.
Edit: Looking back on this, theres still things I could write better, but I simply cant be bothered for a simple forum post. Some of the writing in this post is actually mildly clever, even if I didn't mean most of it. But none of you would notice that anyway, except perhaps for my small band of about 2-3 fans, haha.
Thank you, to anyone silly enough to be reading down this far :P
Kernoladge
2003-12-17, 13:07
Ok, i think some people here doesn't understand me...
"I just finished watching your "level 3" karaoke, and I must say... "
did i say that the opening is a third lvl ? no, because he don't.
" I can't believe I actually fell for your shameless self-promotion "
Where i write "i'm the best" ? I just wrote that i can do more things than some people.
"but the idea of showing kana LETTER BY LETTER is ridiculous"
it's your opinion. How many people know the kana ? For the other, are you sure they prefere see a big line with all the kana than a little place for them ? it's quite ugly to see them when you don't know what it means.
"Doesn't that render the whole point of karaoke useless?"
No, people who know kana can see it in same time than the other can ignore it. I think it's a good choice to don't oblige the reading of it.
"I thought we wanted to sing a long to it"
Can you sing on an opening without knowing the lyrics ? and then, it's more easy for you to sing on the kana than the romanji ? you're really lucky.
"French vs. USA"
I don't want a battle... Isn't good to share our knowladge ?
"I think you're stereotypicalizing many fansubbers for subbing in English"
"French fansubbing (or any other language) is not appreciated by English fansubbers mostly because they come to beg us for scripts or just steal them without consent."
??? lol. Some people take the scripts... but many of us just take the video and translate on notepad... that's steal or it's you who stereotypicalizing ? ;)
"Okay, from a person that just watches Naruto and the shows for a single french subbing group, that means a lot."
As i like karaokes, i ask to people some good us's karaoke... they probably forget a very great one... but that's not only my point of view, but the point of view of some other us fansubers
"Uh, you mean people would think that the show would air with the English subtitles? How stupid do you think people are?"
do you know all we can do with After Effect ? I see a karaoke of Onegai Twins where road signs where add... without the original video, we can't see if it's not on the video.
And for ashibaka :
"oh, "mo'! Wait, what was that kanji? I missed it!"
oh ! sorry ! with 3 seconds more you can take your book, open it a the good page, see how say it and then you can sing... excuse me...
"Don't you see the benefit of Level 3 effects?"
no, it's just \fad using, without any \k... less than the first :p
I'm not here for a war... i think my karaoke is good... ok, it's fine. You think that's ugly... ok, it's fine.
I won't change all the fansub :D
LordBrian
2003-12-17, 13:46
I don't see how many people could be relising Level 2 effects (which are basic movent effects etc, Level 3 = Well check our E's karaoke, no other English groups have Level 3 karaoke yet, we woulden't for for some reason the person who does ours is French :P)
"I just finished watching your "level 3" karaoke, and I must say... "
did i say that the opening is a third lvl ? no, because he don't.Nobody accused you of saying that your karaoke was "level 3," which I still read as "ass." Maybe you should ask some of the other members in your esteemed group why they're calling it "level 3" if you're the one doing the karaoke, though...
SirCanealot
2003-12-17, 13:54
The first couple of lines or so are "level 3". I think Kernoladge was merly thinking of the opening as a whole.
Well done. You're doing what YOU want to do. While our karaoke'er, who spends up to 60 hours doing effects is doing what HE wants to do. Don't even get me started on how we spend our time, most of us are geeks here heh.
60 hours, holy shit you need to read a book more than I do :P. Wel.. if you wanna do 60 hours worth of work on non-pay that's your own stupidity. I'll settle for some basic karaoke that.. wait.. here it comes... you can sing along to XD.
Oh and Sprye.. I wrote that response after doing a philosophy paper.. guess how oriented I was.. XD. Can you say "I just want to go to sleep waaaa" XD.
SirCanealot
2003-12-17, 15:20
To each his own. I've spent days painting up a Warhammer 40000 miniture (Wargamming... I was paining a small 1 1/2 inch Space Marin hehe), repainting over the smallest details because I want it to look as good as I can make it (this was a Commander, you need to paint up your commanders cool :P). Same with karaoke. Same with timing, I spend days on that. It's a hobby, I guess. I know a lot of people that go insane over hobbys...
The last few translators we've took on (thanks guys!! :P), our other editor, Kcl, basically just gave them the E's Otherwise Opening to translate (which makes NO sense in A.F.K.s version, Anime-Cookies version, our first version or our second, so its always a good laugh).
Refrain from spewing empty statements without meaningful support. kthx.
SirCanealot
2003-12-17, 17:16
Sorry? That was actually on topic, at the time.
You gonna feel so
(be)
(feel =be)
Konya no tame no tobikkiri miraa.
DINNER
(miraa =dinner)
Baibereesho
Aisuru yue ni satorei
Sadness
(satorei = sadness)
If i understand your post right.... the offical lyrics state:
(yeah, come on! you gonna feel so)
(skip a few lines)
konya no tame no tobikiri no dinner
(skip a few lines)
bla bla bla vibration
(Skip a few words)
blah bla bla
ai tsuru ga yue ni sadness
bla bla bla level this, everyone else sucks that
Levels... all i have to say is wtf... this is almost like something you created from nothing... (the word level in typesetting refers to something completely different)
And dont go around saying people's t/l's suck unless you can back them up. So far you just are spitting out random stuff without a source (Which doesnt match anything that i can find).
And this is an offtopic flame war now..., personally all these effects are just crap cause they usually have nothing to do with the animation ...
Edit:dropped quotes down to nothing, and added last few sentances
complich8 had a very nice analogy. To quote again:
I would say its more important for karaoke to look good than to look complex: it makes me think of a beautiful woman with a single thin gold chain that accentuates her beauty, versus the same woman with 3 lbs of jewelry around her neck detracting from her appeal.
With that in mind, let's begin ...
SirCanealot said:
I might try and torrent our op/ed, so people can see what Level 3 karaoke is. If anyof you can be bothered, come on our Irc group and download E's 26, or even the first 30 megs for the opening. The first few lines are level 3 effects.
It's very ironic you should say that, because that's exactly what a bunch of us did. Here goes the relevant IRC log:
[23:39] <@GipFace> I found a lame comment to reply to
[23:40] <@uLTraCarL-> is it under the kimi ga nozomu eien section
[23:40] <@GipFace> No
[23:40] <@uLTraCarL-> lol
[23:40] <@GipFace> It's under "fansub groups"
[23:40] <@GipFace> Someone is talking about "level 3 karaoke" whatever that means
[23:40] <@GipFace> Now I have to reply
[23:40] <@uLTraCarL-> i hate that forum
[23:40] <@uLTraCarL-> level 3 karaoke ? lol
[23:40] <@uLTraCarL-> so is there a super saiyan level 3 karaoke also ?
[23:47] <@uLTraCarL-> hahaha
[23:47] <@uLTraCarL-> Level 1 : Select fonts and color, timing, use of the basic karaoke command
[23:47] <@uLTraCarL-> Level 2 : Use "basic effects"
[23:47] <@uLTraCarL-> Level 3 : make "advanced effects" using many many techniques
[23:48] <@Shin-san> Should we make up a level 4?
[23:49] <@uLTraCarL-> level 4 : AE
[23:49] <@uLTraCarL-> haha
[23:53] <@GipFace> There, posted ... simple is best XD
Then ...
[00:02] <@GipFace> I am tempted to download their release
[00:03] <@GipFace> To see what "lv 3" actually is
[00:03] <@uLTraCarL-> same
[00:04] <@Kai-Rin> rofl
[00:04] <@Kai-Rin> what are you getting?
[00:04] <@GipFace> An Anime-Blitz release
...
[00:52] <@GipFace> Download succeded
[00:52] * @GipFace braces for LEVEL 3 GOODNESS
[00:52] <@taiyaki> huh?
[00:53] <@GipFace> Oh you werent here for the joke tai ;(
[00:53] <@taiyaki> ill read up?
[00:53] <@GipFace> Yeah
[00:54] <@GipFace> They flash the japanese one character at a time then it disappears
[00:55] <@GipFace> The romaji is slightly better but still crap
[00:56] <@taiyaki> i thought the point of kara was so that you can see it and sing along?
[00:56] <@uLTraCarL-> rip me it :D
[01:00] <@taiyaki> Hah
[01:00] <@taiyaki> LVL 3 Karaoke
[01:01] <@taiyaki> I'll be needing a clip of that also, thank you very much.
[01:01] <@uLTraCarL-> high and mighty
[01:01] <@[]v[]aRyu-Sama> want to see the allmight lvl 3 too
[01:02] <@taiyaki> Level 1 : Select fonts and color, timing, use of the basic karaoke command
[01:02] <@taiyaki> Level 2 : Use "basic effects"
[01:02] <@taiyaki> Level 3 : make "advanced effects" using many many techniques
[01:02] <@taiyaki> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
[01:02] <@taiyaki> I now label Anime-Blitz the new scapegoat for 2004.
[01:29] <@GipFace> k uploaded to (ftp)
[01:30] <@uLTraCarL-> woot
[01:31] <@GipFace> "omfg-lv3-karaoke.avi"
[01:33] <@[]v[]aRyu-Sama> I can r not watch r lvl 3 it r too l33t for comput r
[01:33] <@Shin-san> I don't see anything super1337 about their karaoke
[01:36] <@[]v[]aRyu-Sama> the karaoke is meh ...
[01:41] <@taiyaki> wow, that anime-blitz shit was pretty gay.
[01:42] * @uLTraCarL- »» BSPlayer «» omfg-lv3-karaoke «» 00:00 / 01:30 «» 640x480 «» 29.970 fps «» ~140.13KB/s «» 12.32MB «« XviD MPEG-4 codec -
[01:42] <@aisetsu-chan> omfg
[01:42] <@aisetsu-chan> that was sooo amazing
[01:43] <@uLTraCarL-> they keep switching the styles
[01:43] <@uLTraCarL-> thats not cool ;p
[01:43] <@uLTraCarL-> wow if thats lvl 3
[01:43] <@uLTraCarL-> lol...
[01:43] <@Shin-san> Also they put their website where it overlapped a subtitle
[01:44] <@aisetsu-chan> no
[01:44] <@uLTraCarL-> kraze gits is better than that
[01:44] <@aisetsu-chan> the karaoke was cool in my opinion
[01:44] * @aisetsu-chan likes all these flashy special effects
[01:44] <@uLTraCarL-> its cool but its kept changing
[01:44] <@uLTraCarL-> didnt stay with one effect
[01:44] <@aisetsu-chan> hmm that's what I liked about it
[01:44] <@aisetsu-chan> except for the end style
[02:13] <@GipFace> Wow, I got 11 people to view that stupid lv 3 thread at the same time
[02:14] <@uLTraCarL|sick|dinner> everyone in #fansubbers lol
[02:14] <@taiyaki> maybe i shouldnt have mentioned it?
...
[08:53] <@uLTraCarL|sick> oo oo oo
[08:53] <@uLTraCarL|sick> strato replied
[08:53] <@Ace|Of|Blitz> who dat be
[08:53] <@uLTraCarL|sick> he replied in that thread about karaoke levels
[08:54] <@uLTraCarL|sick> and that dude from anime-blitz parading about his 'level 3 karaoke'
[08:59] <@Yuuwaku> i like how the whole post was started by one guy who thought he knew better than everyone else
[09:00] <@Yuuwaku> who's ideas all got shot down
...
[10:49] <@taiyaki> "The point is he's French, and in France they REALLY care about having cool effects in their subs.
[10:49] <@taiyaki> AHAHAHA
[10:51] <@taiyaki> their typesetter replied too with that "level" bs
[10:55] <@Robomelon> lol
[11:00] <@taiyaki> im gonna make a reply
To sum it up, this thread was mentioned in a general fansubber channel (meaning there are experienced members from various well-known groups hanging around) and the overall reception wasn't taken kindly. This is also the reason why there was overwhelming reply activity with people like Tyreal jumping in.
Kernoladge said:
" I can't believe I actually fell for your shameless self-promotion "
Where i write "i'm the best" ? I just wrote that i can do more things than some people.
...
I haven't saw all the us's karaokes, but i never saw/heard of a very beautiful karaoke...
...
i'm saying that french fansub is better
...
But i think i can make better karaoke than many other.
Enough said. Your hypocrisy amazes me.
Now for some real discussion. The problem with fansub karaoke is that fansubbers fail to even do them in the spirit that CD+G karaoke machines are like. Everyone (including yours truly) is guilty of this. The romaji/moji (Japanese characters) pop up the moment the line starts to be said. Karaoke is supposed to show up a second or two before the line is said so that the viewer has a clue to what the first syllable is. Overall, the fansub karaoke method is a very poor tool for someone who actually wants to sing along. Complex effects only add to this problem. So why do it in the first place? Some people like it because they can learn the song that way through romaji memorization, but the people who are most likely to sing along are the people who have already memorized the tune (and therefore would know the first syllables in lines without a cue).
Making the karaoke lines show up 1-2 seconds before the actual line isn't difficult (empty \k or \t at the beginning of the line), but then you get some people saying that the timing is off. Arg! You just can't win.
SirCanealot said:
And sing along, do you? You can sing along to a kanji sub track can you? Doing much with the kanji track is basically a waste of time. Out of all the people who watch your fansubs theres going to be only a few that can understand much of it.
Then why have the moji in the first place? Why didn't you just get rid of it entirely?
(One other thing ... if you wanted moji, the auto-kanjification in IME is not always correct. Also hiragana "wa" should be "ha".)
As for the romaji, I've covered that on the previous section. However, alienating a language simply because it's not a roman script is absurd. Some people CAN read it. Some people CAN memorize songs much better if the moji is displayed in their face, just like how some people memorize a song after looking at the romaji.
The point where effects get out of hand is when the viewer is unable to read the upcoming line at all (via disappearing effects, warps, etc.).
Well, I have to say the French do some funny things sometimes, I'm going to fully admit that, but Kernoladge was only stateing a pure and honest fact - French subbers like flashy karaoke more and are willing to spend more time on it and they are willing to spend ages over effects before they release their fansub.
I have little comment on French fansub standards or how long people want to spend working on their karaoke (whatever people do is their business). I'll just say that English fansub standards are generally higher because there is a higher volume of them.
Final comment? No one would be at your throat if you weren't so pompous about your abilities and were modest like most other people. Declaring your karaoke as "level 3" and then saying no one else has done it is a direct slap in the face to other people who spend just as much time on their effects as you do. Forget you ever uttered the words "level 3" unless you want Anime-Blitz to be the "new scapegoat of 2004". Bashing AJ is old now.
Oh, and thank you for making an otherwise boring night very entertaining. ^_^
Maybe you typesetters with 60 hours free should learn how to encode. Noone else in your little groups knows, so the time you spend there would definately be better spent than doing retarded ass "level 3" karaokes.
DarkIncin
2003-12-17, 18:22
(There's ALWAYS people beating their chest saying "look, I've got the best"... *sigh*)
Level 3 karaoke? That's laughable, at best. If you want to say that you use fancy video editing software to make your karaoke, it's better just to say that rather than invent all sorts of stupid terminology. There's NO way you'll EVER get all subbers to agree on a single convention, since they wouldn't want to reveal how they do any of their styles. ;) It gets worse when you do joint group projects when everyone has their own names for everything.
In any case, if groups spent that much effort in actually making their SUBTITLES good instead of just the crummy karaoke (which most people will only watch once or twice, unless the OP/ED *ITSELF* is good), there would be so much less crap subbing out there. Sure, flash is good... but only to a point, after which it gets flat out annoying for the viewer and will get purists on your back.
Another thing people should keep in mind is that THE ORIGINAL JAPANESE DOESN'T HAVE A KARAOKE. In all the time I've been fansubbing (5+ years), the only fancy kana I've seen in a raw is colored kana... wow, Japan is the most technologically advanced nation and they only have COLORED TEXT... and most of the time, the karaoke isn't done in the way that's usable for people singing karaoke... (yes, sometimes big, fat, PLAIN text with only two colors really DOES beat fancy, fading, 5-colored text that's hard to read in advance).
I think some of the newer subbers completely miss the point of having the text there on top of the song. Namely, groups who make karaokes with "neat" effects that make it hard to read. Makes you wonder what the heck the song is even about (well, that is, if you don't understand Japanese ;) ).
Flamethrower
2003-12-17, 20:55
In the end, all the so called "level 3" typesets counts for nothing if:-
1) Your translations are crap
2) Your encode is bad
3) Your release speed is slow
But most importantly, if your typesets are so hot, then tell me, why hasnt your channel have a number of 2500 people in it?
Why? Coz typesets are not the only part of the fansubbing process that makes a fansub anime good, it is everything from translations to the final distroing (sure some people would argue that distro isnt fansubbing, but let's leave that arguement for now)
French fansubs? I dont bother with them, since I dont read french, besides most french fansubbers asks english fansub groups for their subs (usually the ssa, timed if possible coz they are lazy, with the effects - that would be even better)
Before anyone say "he is the best" or "mine is better" I believe it all depends on the individual. Since some people would thinK AJ rocks their world, or Animeone is the best, or Anime-Keep is just sensational. Naturally the opposite can be said of them.
Like AJ - "Mass naked child events"
Animeone - AJ wannabe
Anime-keep - the 2nd AJ
Whatever the views of everyone are, the main thing is, fansubbers are doing it all for free, some are more dedicated than the others, some are more fanatical than others, some just dont care or some just do what the hell they want without a care about others except to themselves.
If you wanna be the best, then be prepared to have something to back it up.
This is my 2 cents, feel free to flame or read or whatever.
Kernoladge
2003-12-17, 21:19
So, there's good ideas here
first, i can post a discution with many fansubbers who criticize someone or something, it's easy. But it's not why i reply.
people say always "bla... bla... levels.... bla... bla... level 3..."
Stop with that, that's just something for describe a karaoke... it's writen nowhere !
And it's certainly not a thing for define if a karaoke is good or not. For exemple, i think it's very ugly many effects on the ending of Tsukihime...
So, it's just something to describe...
Then for ES, many people lose their temper, and SirC at first (but it's his first fansub project, that's why). But for E"s Otherwise opening i just would do something very "flash", because it was my first karaoke for that team and for us (or english or what you want) fansub. But to DESCRIBE it, it's just "lvl 2", if you understand that. The ending is only at the last episode of ES because before that i made my "60 hours karaoke", many people don't really understand it to... It's just the ending of Angelic Layer, and i've take that time just for training. I had tested many effects, some good, some ugly... it's just tests for know all the possibility we can do with SSA. That's all. For the ending of ES, it's just the 4th first ligne who are "lvl 3"... if you want to describe it...
So, now i wich that is clear.
for begin the karaoke 1 or 2 seconds before, that's right. It's better for sing something. But, that's only me, but when i look an episode, i'm not singing during the opening, look the episode, and sing on the ending... I make karaokes just for watch it, a not really for sing, that's right. and it's just just not drop it and jump direct to the episode (it's boring to see 26 times the same thing). If i want to make something for sing, i'll make romanji in Arial font size 50, in pink and yellow. With that, you'll can read :D
That's a probleme that everyone got his point of view.
"Some people CAN read it. Some people CAN memorize songs much better if the moji is displayed in their face"
Sorry about that... The sub i made is only for those who don't know the japanese. And there's a man who know the moji who say me that is beautiful what i've done (i can give you his adress, all the effect on moji is because he like it and nobody than you said that's horrible ^^)
I don't want to put an big line of moji... so i see that you don't like how i do and that's why i'll not do any moji sub for the futur (sorry for those who prefer it).
"because there is a higher volume of them"
more than 150 french fansub teams. many people (and we first) say that's too much for a little country :)
For encode, i'm learning it, but it's not my job in Anime-Blitz ;)
"they wouldn't want to reveal how they do any of their styles"
just ask me (on IRC.. forum irritate me, i think it's my last post here).
And DarkIncin have a good idea. the better thing to make : first episode without any karaoke, second with romanji, third with moji, and for the next... delete opening and ending, the video will be shorter of many Mo... That's a good idea, really.
Now i want this discution is over. People who like "flash" karaoke will download it, people who don't, will not. We've made errors, that's true. But the begining of all the teams is perfect ? It's my begining in this new "standart" too... i show you that i can do and all the team too, i think suggest a better method is more interesting than criticize. Learn me what i don't know.
Flamethrower
2003-12-17, 21:59
"delete opening and ending, the video will be shorter of many Mo... That's a good idea, really."
While you are at it, dont fansub at all....
Oh my God! Come back to us when you can write that in english o_O;.... even my post-philosophy paper ranting makes more sense than that... *Tyreal shakes his fist at Sprye ;p. Also btw.. if you're saying "Blah this all teams are shaky at first" than why the fux do you have other members comming in here with their "i r teh win!" stuff. DAMN YOU CONFUSING PEOPLE. *Tyreal shakes his fist at them!
oh ! sorry ! with 3 seconds more you can take your book, open it a the good page, see how say it and then you can sing... excuse me...
Actually, I can read kanji, I think that romanji translations should be eliminated in favour of hiragana, katakana and furigana, and I was disgusted by your OP.
The letters flying by in my post spell out "Worst Karaoke Ever".
Actually, I can read kanji, I think that romanji translations should be eliminated in favour of hiragana, katakana and furigana, and I was disgusted by your OP.
The letters flying by in my post spell out "Worst Karaoke Ever".
The point of romanji is so that all the normal people out there who dont know kana can read the song in japanese. And i got a clip of that..... shit.... and the kana flies by so fast you cant even read it..wait..why am i saying kana, there is only hiragana... that was a waste of 60 hours.... without the flashing hiragana, it would have been only 1/2 shitty.
Why would someone want to sing a Japanese song if they can't even read the language? I dunno, it just reeks of super-duper cosplay otakudom to me.
Why would someone want to sing a Japanese song if they can't even read the language? I dunno, it just reeks of super-duper cosplay otakudom to me.
A lot of students in Japanese are initially taught using romaji. Eventually, when they're 2nd + 3rd year students, the textbooks become all Japanese characters, but before then, it's usually all in romaji. Plus, it's probably much faster for a beginning Japanese student to recognize the romaji 'ra' than the hiragana 'ra'. The pronunciation isn't too big a problem as long as they can hear what the singer is doing and mimic it.
A lot of students in Japanese are initially taught using romaji. Eventually, when they're 2nd + 3rd year students, the textbooks become all Japanese characters, but before then, it's usually all in romaji.
Oh, really? I really didn't know that ^_^; I will have to make sure my Japanese course doesn't suck that much when I take it.
Garylisk
2003-12-18, 02:13
Oh, really? I really didn't know that ^_^; I will have to make sure my Japanese course doesn't suck that much when I take it.
If English is your first language and you want to learn Japanese, you practically NEED romaji. But hey, if you succeed in finding a Japanese class that doesn't use romaji as a tool to teach hiragana/katakana, let me know. That would be kind of interesting, although bass-ackwards and way more difficult than it needs to be.
SirCanealot
2003-12-18, 04:58
But most importantly, if your typesets are so hot, then tell me, why hasnt your channel have a number of 2500 people in it?
Because we're not subbing a show like Naruto of Full Metal Alchemist, and we're not going for a 1 day after air release either.
And yes, perhaps I'll work with Kerno and try to have him not slide words onto a line letter by letter. Perhaps I'll even work my skills as Great Fansubber SirC and have the lines appear before the words are sung, however, due to the directing style of anime, this will be impossible unless you heavily break the scene bleed rule, which is not to be brokeing unless catering for stupid slow ass readers in episode. I however still think the karaoke for the E's op still stands though as;
The font colour is blue. The video on the E's Op itself is very flashy, with lots of motion, so the flashy movement of the karaoke lines goes in well with the video. The blue colour of the font and the fast paced motion of the typeset even helps establish E's Otherwise as a sci-fi/action show. You'll notice at about about 1:00, the karaoke'r has the line sort of bob around and move, this is to conicide with the fast pan of the camera in this shot, aditionally, I'm really running out of random Media essay style rubbish to say and I should really take a shower and go to college so I can work on some coursework due today, you know 20% of the final grade. I'm sure most of you hope I'll be crushed by a giant {\fad(300.300)}{\K148}JUST DIE (I was actually going to post about 4 lines of karaoke code form our E's ed(one line), but screw that, its not about reveiling manz tactix to unapreciateing manz) but that's okay, I'm sure I can forgive you all in time.
Hmm. My job here is done. If I get very board at college, I'll come back and argue some more, but everythings gone 100% opinion and mad @zz Irc logs, so if I argue back it'll take time and I'll be forced to use "Level 4" pwnage on you all.
Edit: Thinking full circle on the issue, I must admit, even my mind may be clouded by bias. As I praticaly know the words to the E's op/ed, I have no trouble when the words aren't on the screen to be read. I still say Kernoladge in the man though, and that is my unprofessional opinion, which shall stand.
Ookla The Mok
2003-12-18, 05:06
Heh. Since I have never watched this show and don't even know what groups are doing it...here.
Peace Maker Kurogane OP/ED Lyrics
http://www.brainfart.org/peacemakerlyrics.png
Peace Maker Kurogane OP Sheet Music
http://www.brainfart.org/peacemakersheetmusic.png
have fun!
Looks like "feel" and "sadness" and "dinner" win. ;)
Well, bay has the lyrics now too, as he says above, but anyway, here's the scans.
Ookla The Mok
2003-12-18, 05:19
If English is your first language and you want to learn Japanese, you practically NEED romaji. But hey, if you succeed in finding a Japanese class that doesn't use romaji as a tool to teach hiragana/katakana, let me know. That would be kind of interesting, although bass-ackwards and way more difficult than it needs to be.
Er...my Japanese class is using the Genki textbooks. It has some romaji in the first 2 lessons while it teaches hiragana and katakana. After that there is no romaji at all.
Romaji is a CRUTCH that you should get away from as soon as you can. Even if something is written in kanji, furi, and romaji, your eye will be drawn to the romaji because that's what English readers are used to.
DekaMaster
2003-12-18, 06:28
In the end, all the so called "level 3" typesets counts for nothing if:-
1) Your translations are crap
2) Your encode is bad
3) Your release speed is slow
1.If you don't like a groups translation go do it yourself if you think you can do better.
2.See #1
3.Yeah cause you know groups that do not have a 1 hour air to sub release speed are just shit </sarcasm>
Flamethrower
2003-12-18, 08:10
1.If you don't like a groups translation go do it yourself if you think you can do better.
2.See #1
3.Yeah cause you know groups that do not have a 1 hour air to sub release speed are just shit </sarcasm>
OMG YOU CAN READ!!!! How about reading it further?
And how would you know I cant do it better? You have no idea what you are talking about. Why?
1) You dont know if I can translate or not
2) You dont know if I can encode or not
3) Yeah I guess you love "mass naked child events" eh?
And you have no idea which group I belong to.
Then again you probably dont wanna know, so *shrugs*
If you had bothered to READ my previous post, it was focusing that an anime should not just be all about typesetting, every part of the fansub process counts.
But then again, you were all heated up werent you? Couldnt resist to jump in and start posting, oh nevermind reading further and understand what I am trying to get across.
Such pity....
If English is your first language and you want to learn Japanese, you practically NEED romaji. But hey, if you succeed in finding a Japanese class that doesn't use romaji as a tool to teach hiragana/katakana, let me know.
I studied Japanese with a semi-literate tutor. After about three weeks of study from the textbook (Japanese for Young People :heh: ), I knew all the hiragana and no longer needed romanji. After about six weeks, I knew most of the katakana as well.
Well, Ookla the Mok already said it, but I thought I'd second it. If your Japanese course only uses romanji, it sucks pretty bad.
Back when I learned Japanese in a class... we started Hiragana from day 1...
We never really used romaji, and I don't really feel comfortable with it even now.. which is a good thing I guess...
only time it's useful is for apps where you can't type in japanese (Mainly games.. as most windows things support Japnaese now... even warcarft 3 does =D...)
The video on the E's Op itself is very flashy, with lots of motion, so the flashy movement of the karaoke lines goes in well with the video. The blue colour of the font and the fast paced motion of the typeset even helps establish E's Otherwise as a sci-fi/action show.
*twitches*.... uh... i dont even want to ask where the last sentance comes from cause that just makes 0 sense. How does blue = sci-fi/action???
Logically: E's animation is flashy, in other words, the karaoke should use as little of the screen as possible and not be complex so it can be seen quickly while watching the animation. Karaoke is not an alternate to watching the op animation.
More generic logic:
Lots of animation = subs should take up less of screen and be simpler
Little animation = subs have more freedom to do shit (That doesnt mean they do shit)
This is just logical deduction of trying to keep the original work as in tact as possible.
I so if I argue back it'll take time and I'll be forced to use "Level 4" pwnage on you all.
*twitches again*.... if more complex stuff than that exists.... i really hope it ends up in the recycling bin permanently
romanji crutch
romanji is good for maybe the first week ..and then its existance should be forgotten, or its existance should be acknolwedged... my class too never did romanji (infact, my teacher said she would smack us if we used it)... however for those not willing to learn the language, then romanji is their only hope.
And yes, perhaps I'll work with Kerno and try to have him not slide words onto a line letter by letter. Perhaps I'll even work my skills as Great Fansubber SirC
OH GIVE ME A ***** BREAK. Go stare at yourself in a freaking mirror you self absorbed nutcase o_O;
The font colour is blue. The video on the E's Op itself is very flashy, with lots of motion, so the flashy movement of the karaoke lines goes in well with the video. The blue colour of the font and the fast paced motion of the typeset even helps establish E's Otherwise as a sci-fi/action show. You'll notice at about about 1:00, the karaoke'r has the line sort of bob around and move, this is to conicide with the fast pan of the camera in this shot, aditionally, I'm really running out of random Media essay style rubbish to say and I should really take a shower and go to college so I can work on some coursework due today, you know 20% of the final grade. I'm sure most of you hope I'll be crushed by a giant
What the hell are you talking about.. karaoke has nothing to do with bringing out what kind show it is. Guess what? THE ACTUAL ANIMATION ITSELF DECIDES WHAT KIND OF SHOW IT IS, not your flashy *** karaoke. Yes, I do hope you are crushed.
Hmm. My job here is done. If I get very board at college, I'll come back and argue some more, but everythings gone 100% opinion and mad @zz Irc logs
Board and logs, what are you some kind of lumberjack?
so if I argue back it'll take time and I'll be forced to use "Level 4" pwnage on you all.
Not to sound vulgar but, "stfu".
Ok, that's it for today. By the way, why is everyone still arguing about that "You Gonna Feel So" issue? I told you WAYYY back it's that way because the SONG'S TITLE is "YOU GONNA FEEL". Once again, look at the ed song, you don't need lyrics to tell you this :P.
Okay guys, I think it's time the moderators closed this. This thread hasn't really been on topic, and now it's come down to personal flame attacks.
complich8
2003-12-18, 16:15
high points of the last 2 pages of this thread:
Peace Maker Kurogane OP/ED Lyrics
http://www.brainfart.org/peacemakerlyrics.png
low points of the last 2 pages:
"your translation sucks" "well your opening karaoke sucks" "you don't know me" "stfu bitches" "no you stfu, you suck" "I don't suck, you suck"
....
thanks oolka for the link to what looks like official lyrics. Maybe some of the other people subbing this might look over them and see about making changes to their own scripts... Official lyrics should ALWAYS supersede what some random translator thinks they hear, since they're .... well ... as a rule, correct.
the philosophy of karaoke discussion is interesting.... I'll take a stab at that one ...
It is my opinion that karaoke should try to match the video it is on top of in such a way that it acts harmoniously with the original credits and effects and the animation. This means attempting to either replicate effects used by the original animation or to find something that complements them. If the karaoke detracts from the opening, it is probably a bad thing. If it looks like it belongs there, it is probably a good thing. (incidentally, a lot of aone's karaoke is designed with something along that line of thinking in mind -- our kurogane op replicates the original credit effects, our chrno crusade ending karaoke fits with the ripple effects in the animation pretty nicely IMO -- though that's entirely a matter of biased opinion).
I don't think a whole lot of people sing along, but I know that a lot of people do follow along just for something to do when presented with a minute and a half of video clip they don't understand a word of (or in the case of kurogane, they understand about 11 words of (you gonna feel so, sadness, happiness, you were not in pain). It's something to do, its somewhere where typesetters and karaoke specialists can show off how l33t they are, but yeah, it isn't as important as translation, editing, timing and typesetting in the episode itself.
Okay guys, I think it's time the moderators closed this. This thread hasn't really been on topic, and now it's come down to personal flame attacks.
Flame attacks are present in most any fansubbing group "discussions" I've come across so far (or been in for that matter :D).
SirCanealot
2003-12-18, 17:38
*twitches*.... uh... i dont even want to ask where the last sentance comes from cause that just makes 0 sense. How does blue = sci-fi/action???
.....etc
Red/Blue = scifi/action is like a FACT in FILM MAKING(film making conventions also apply to anime to an extent, the blue/red thing stands completely imo, go look for yourself). OMG, didn't I say me = 4 years Media Studies experience? Kernoladge uncontiously (sorry, spelling) used a blue font, because allthough it may not have been pointed out to him, he knows blue gos well with sci-fi. So the blue font = adds to the atmosphere of the opening and "blends in" (I use that term VERY lightly with THOSE effects, as I do fully admit they are over the top :P) with the opening. More suits, that blends in. Well the colour anyway.
And as for the rest, well thats your opinion. I thought E's Otherwise had some nice directing. The intro was epecially nice, Kerno's subs cover up basically nothing, as everything is framed more or less in the center of the screen.
OH GIVE ME A ***** BREAK. Go stare at yourself in a freaking mirror you self absorbed nutcase o_O;
What the hell are you talking about.. karaoke has nothing to do with bringing out what kind show it is. Guess what? THE ACTUAL ANIMATION ITSELF DECIDES WHAT KIND OF SHOW IT IS, not your flashy *** karaoke. Yes, I do hope you are crushed.
Ahh, but I said it HELPS ESTABLISH, not it makes. It doesn't do anything, it merly... adds to the atmosphere. Which it does. Don't deny this. My 4 years Media Studies experience means basically nothing, except when talking about mundain subjects like this.
And, I think, if anyone trys to crush me, I'll PARRY.
And I'm not self absored. Its all motivation isnt it? And my motivations are diffrent than that. Allthough the nutcase bit... well, everyone has their problems don't they. Normally is a frame of mind afterall.
Board and logs, what are you some kind of lumberjack?
Look, I never wanted to be some idiot, who flames people on boards for fun. I always did want to become a lumber jack. The mighty rivers of british columbia. The mighty firwood! The larch! With my best girlie by my side we'd sing! sing! sing!
I'm a lumber jack and I'm okay, I sleep all night and I work all day!
I cut down trees, I eat my lunch, I like to press will flowers, on wensdays I go shoping and have buttered scones for tea! -- you know the rest.
Not to sound vulgar but, "stfu".
Okay guys, I think it's time the moderators closed this. This thread hasn't really been on topic, and now it's come down to personal flame attacks.
I agree. We've had our fun (well I have anyway), now it's time to stop.
Allthough my morals fully beleive this should be left open. A good discussion, thats what you all need in this day and age.
And I'll add, if you want to argue or discuss in #anime-blitz. By my guest. All this banning and kicking, s'horid I tell thee.
complich8 = Comeplete and utter voice of reason. If you want any sense, you should actually listen to him. And not me.
Thank you very much.
Flamethrower
2003-12-18, 18:39
our kurogane op replicates the original credit effects, our chrno crusade ending karaoke fits with the ripple effects in the animation pretty nicely IMO -- though that's entirely a matter of biased opinion).
complich8 = Comeplete and utter voice of reason. If you want any sense, you should actually listen to him. And not me.
Thank you very much.
Thats because both of you are too busy pimping your group's stuff on the forum.
Flamewar /o/
Flamewar \o\
Flamewar! \o/
complich8
2003-12-18, 19:44
Thats because both of you are too busy pimping your group's stuff on the forum.
I told ya it was biased opinion. I really tried to emphasize that that was just my opinion... I'm not saying you should go download the version that the people I'm used to working with worked on. I just like it and think its a good example. I haven't watched a whole lot of stuff out of my group lately so I don't have good examples from other groups. I didn't come on here and say "my version is better than your version." I haven't seen enough other versions to be able to conclusively say that, and even so my saying so would just be a waste of the characters I would have to type to say it, unless I did an exhaustive review of the complete differences between every group that did anything in the series.
SirC, I'm not a complete and utter voice of reason either. I'm just opinionated in my own odd little way. I'd love for everyone to "see the light" and agree with me, but that doesn't mean I'm right, or even always reasonable. Just in this case I think I am :-p
This thread has drifted wayyy off topic though. Ookla tried to bring it back on topic a bit, but it seems like its dead set on becoming a flame war, which isn't going to get anyone anywhere... now I think it should just die.
SirCanealot
2003-12-18, 20:41
Hey. You're more the voice of reason I am. Because I'm just going off and saying anything. But its all for the good of mankind though, I decided earlier this thread is helping my in my research of "Internet Pshychology" (best excuse ever, kthxbye)
Comming soon, Anime-Blitz E's Otherwise DVD Release!! With "Level 4" Karaoke. This time a pair of boxing gloves comes out the screen the boxes ya in the face 'cause you hated on our stuff...
Actually, it boxes you even if you like on us. Call it "tough love". I'm working with out karaoke'r to resolve this issue, but it seems the limits of .ssa have been found :((((
Edit: And I haven't been pimping our group. Call us just... a victim of circumstance...
Allthough I fully admit that Anime-Blitz is the best fansub group on the internet and everyone should download our releases and die from the shock of watching them, pimping us was in no way related to why I mentioned us in this topic.
(aditionally, if you cant tell thats sarcasm above, it is. I'd gladly put us in second or third place, there is some excellent groups out there :P)
(aditionally, if you cant tell thats sarcasm above, it is. I'd gladly put us in second or third place, there is some excellent groups out there :P)
I hope to God that was sarcasm as well.
Ookla The Mok
2003-12-18, 21:26
thanks oolka for the link to what looks like official lyrics. Maybe some of the other people subbing this might look over them and see about making changes to their own scripts... Official lyrics should ALWAYS supersede what some random translator thinks they hear, since they're .... well ... as a rule, correct.
Well it's true that even in American music sometimes the liner notes don't exactly match what's sung. But usually the changes are minor.
And I did scan these rather than just find the link somewhere. But that doesn't really matter; official lyrics are official lyrics.
thanks oolka for the link to what looks like official lyrics. Maybe some of the other people subbing this might look over them and see about making changes to their own scripts... Official lyrics should ALWAYS supersede what some random translator thinks they hear, since they're .... well ... as a rule, correct.
I believe they are lyrics scanned from Animedia, which generally tend to be correct, except for some rare instances. And yeah... lyrics are hard to figure out sometimes (I'm looking at you Funta! -_-)
I believe they are lyrics scanned from Animedia, which generally tend to be correct, except for some rare instances. And yeah... lyrics are hard to figure out sometimes (I'm looking at you Funta! -_-)
The only "Error" ive ever seen was when they put the kanji for mukashi instead of oto for piano ed. Otherwise, they match the official 99% of the time (except maybe a kana difference since there are 3 character sets)
Firebrand
2004-01-02, 18:58
OK, here it is. Time to drop the bomb. Ask the average leecher how many times they watch the OP/ED, and ill bet 95% of them will answer in the margin of 0-2. So have fun knowing your 1337 level 3 effects worth 60 hours of time are watched a collective 10 minutes by the average leecher.
Not much motive for me to bother with something super fancy, especially if it facks up the compression cause there is so much damn motion and color in the op that the rest of the episode has to be degraded. Thank you ill pass.
Do i care about kareoke? No. Why? filled letters is perfectly fine... and when the hell did we fansubbers get pushed into kareoking this crap?!! When did that become a must for a 'completed project'
and now for random more offtopic stuff:
Why? Coz typesets are not the only part of the fansubbing process that makes a fansub anime good, it is everything from translations to the final distroing (sure some people would argue that distro isnt fansubbing, but let's leave that arguement for now)
Name recognition is one of the biggest factors in the world market of anything. People buy name brands cause of the name much as people download fansubs based on name.
To each his own. I've spent days painting up a Warhammer 40000 miniture (Wargamming... I was paining a small 1 1/2 inch Space Marin hehe), repainting over the smallest details because I want it to look as good as I can make it (this was a Commander, you need to paint up your commanders cool :P). Same with karaoke. Same with timing, I spend days on that. .
Take it from me seriously. If it takes you longer than 4 hours to make a 22 minute episode timing job looks great, you need some help.
Anime-blitz, having never seen a release from you, i can't comment on really anything, but don't pimp yourself as group numero uno. When you have the popularity to back that, even something as shallow as downloads, then come back and tell me how good you are.
SirCanealot
2004-01-02, 21:01
OK, here it is. Time to drop the bomb. Ask the average leecher how many times they watch the OP/ED, and ill bet 95% of them will answer in the margin of 0-2. So have fun knowing your 1337 level 3 effects worth 60 hours of time are watched a collective 10 minutes by the average leecher.
I watch it. Every time. And damnit, isn't that enough? I don't think I even used that Space Marine I painted in one battle, but I still pull it out of the case to admire it every now and again :D
Not much motive for me to bother with something super fancy, especially if it facks up the compression cause there is so much damn motion and color in the op that the rest of the episode has to be degraded. Thank you ill pass.
Heh, the extra motion in our case isn't any sort of problem. Blue tends to compress quite well. What kills XVid is these subs with a bright red boarder/shadow. And they're just useing \K too, no motion whatsoever.
Do i care about kareoke? No. Why? filled letters is perfectly fine... and when the hell did we fansubbers get pushed into kareoking this crap?!! When did that become a must for a 'completed project'
It's not that anyone got pushed into anything. We just like our flashy effects. Our group is ours and your group is yours. If your group prefers basic karaoke, then that is how it is.
Take it from me seriously. If it takes you longer than 4 hours to make a 22 minute episode timing job looks great, you need some help.
Heh, actually it probebly took me about 5-7 today including breaks. Probebly about 4-5 without them. It just depends on how fast you work, how far "great" is to you and what your ratio to work:irc chating is :P
Anime-blitz, having never seen a release from you, i can't comment on really anything, but don't pimp yourself as group numero uno. When you have the popularity to back that, even something as shallow as downloads, then come back and tell me how good you are.
You people never learn do you?
Well then, *ahem*
Anime-Blitz is teh best group eva!!!1
Thank you.
60 hours seems a bit harsh... are you actually typing out every single effect? Not even find and replace? :D
You know what really pisses me off about Anime-blitz?
THEY NEVER KNOW WHEN TO SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!
Did you get the hint?
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