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Remus Lupin
2003-11-05, 07:24
Why is One Piece still listed as being Licenced by Funimation? Funimation Doesn't have it. And AFAK the Licenseing of it is still in limbo. So We can Still Seed it.
And Before you ask, I have a friend who works at Funimation. They told Me Funi dosen't have it.
And Before you Ask Again. No I will not give the persons name. I don't wish to get them into trouble.

Tabiree
2003-11-05, 08:38
Well, I really don't see any reason to take it off as they did announce it last year (or early this year). Until FUNimation officially announces they don't have it, it stays unlisted

DrWho2002
2003-11-05, 13:15
Funimation has started dubbing One Piece. So they do have it, they just announced it waaaaaaaaay too early.

GHDpro
2003-11-05, 17:28
Although I indeed don't really have heard anything from
Funimation themselves about having the license for One
Piece, the word does seem to be out that it's already being
dubbed. That would be a give-away to it being licensed.

And it wouldn't be that surprising really... it's licensed in
several European countries already.

If you still continue to download "Pirate" fansubs (pun intended)
though I can understand -- I must admit I'm still downloading
One Piece fansubs as well. BUT... there is a difference between
my personal choice and site policy.

DrWho2002
2003-11-05, 19:20
I've also been dloading the fansubs, but I'll still be picking up the DVD release when it becomes available.

Points why:
- next ep previews will be there (hopefully) =p
- the fansubbers recently have decided to just use "stock clean" OP/ED sequences now to save themselves time encoding... bleah. I want original credit filled op/ed sequences for their proper episodes.
- don't have to fiddle with stupid codecs (like when they recently decided to change something and suddenly a lot of people couldn't play the file anymore.)

Kid
2003-11-06, 04:01
I'm another one who is downloading One Piece. I am actually very impatient for the DVDs to be released because I want to buy them.

I like to watch anime I like on the TV and not the computer. And hopefully the DVDs will offer some nice extras. Not to mention the ENTIRE episode. The fansub eps I have don't include the closing credits and I find that very annoying. No fansubber should be leaving out the credits. They are ~important~.

Mr. Bushido
2003-11-06, 22:09
hhaha "pirate" fansubs. Good one.

yes i dl it too, and if i had money to spare id buy the dvds also.
I heard they're dubbing it and i even read an online journal? from a person who was auditioning to be Luffy or Zoro's voice. Its gonna be odd since Luffy is played by a grl in japan.

the "pirate" subbers do a really good job tho. They're the best ive seen.

EDIT: Kid ovbiously does not get it from these subbers. Sorry id love to, but against rules to give links for these

Tabiree
2003-11-06, 22:53
hate to break it to you, but there's poop-all chance of getting Next Episode preveiws, or atleast, not in Japanese. The point being that it's a Toei show, and much like Dragonball, Sailor Moon, and Saint Seiya( FUNi, ADV, Geneon/Pioneer) Toei want to avoid their Japanese market reverse importing from the US

Remus Lupin
2003-11-26, 08:14
I'm telling you Funimation Does not have One Piece. They Did dub a pilot episode. But the Contract was yanked at the last minute because Toei didn't want Funimation to have All their good Shows. Since they wanted Detective Conan Toei took away One Piece. Think, Funiomatin isn't going to announce that they lost a title because they wouldn't want the competition to pick it up just in case Toei decides to change their mind.
Trust me, My Sources are VERY reliable.
And unless another company has picked it up, One Piece is still on the market.
and for your info I have already found a bit torrent Seed for the series so i don't really need Animesuki for that. I am Just setting the facts straight.

Tabiree
2003-11-26, 11:33
Trust me, if FUNimation didn't have One Piece, then Viz/Bandai/ADV/Tpop etc would know about it. It's called being in an industry. Its not like spies from rival companies come and sit in audiences at announcements and nit pick each and every single word.

Sure, your sources might be Gen Fukunaga himself. It doesn't matter. They haven't told anyone they've retracted it, and you haven't given any backing on what you've said. It's like me saying "Well hey, I know a guy who works at ADV and they said they have Kodacha. Take it off. Oh and I cant tell you the guys name but he knows stuff! His Mom makes me brownies and discusses the finer points in life. He's got a kid too, it likes cows etc blah blah blah"

So stop being so adamant. It's not going to get reseeded.

bayoab
2003-11-26, 15:43
At otakon, funi was asked if they had it or sold it, they replied "no comment". Pioneer was asked if they had bought it off funi, they replied "no comment". Therefore, it sounds like somebody in the industry has it...

Fronzel
2003-11-27, 01:15
Toei didn't want Funimation to have All their good Shows

What the hell? Why would they care? And how do you define "good"? And although irrelevent, I'd like to say your use of caps is irritating.

DrWho2002
2003-11-27, 02:43
I'm telling you Funimation Does not have One Piece. They Did dub a pilot episode. But the Contract was yanked at the last minute because Toei didn't want Funimation to have All their good Shows. Since they wanted Detective Conan Toei took away One Piece. Think, Funiomatin isn't going to announce that they lost a title because they wouldn't want the competition to pick it up just in case Toei decides to change their mind.
Trust me, My Sources are VERY reliable.
And unless another company has picked it up, One Piece is still on the market.
and for your info I have already found a bit torrent Seed for the series so i don't really need Animesuki for that. I am Just setting the facts straight.


Why should we trust you when you're not willing to reveal your sources? You're not engendering any trust here, bub. You gotta give some to get some. Hey man, I know someone at Funimation too, man, and they said they got One Piece man, and they've already started dubbing it man... but I can't say who they are man... See? The last statements I made were utter bullshit. No one's gonna believe some guy on a forum unless they got the creds to back them up.

Remus Lupin
2003-11-27, 06:49
So stop being so adamant. It's not going to get reseeded.
Did you even read through the last line before replying. I DON'T Care if its reseeded or not on Animesuki.

DrWho2002
2003-11-27, 22:25
Then why are you still responding to this thread????

NoSanninWa
2003-11-28, 03:46
Because he thinks that we shouldn't list it as licensed. It isn't about getting ahold of downloads for him. It's no great trick to download One Piece. The group that does it keeps their episodes pretty well seeded. This isn't about his personal gain, so lay off that.

This is purely a moral crusade for him. He believes that One Piece hasn't been licensed, so he is trying to convince us that a mistake has been made.

Unfortunately he doesn't have any evidence or any sources that he feels free to name, so it is pretty unlikely that GHDPro will change his mind.

Remus Lupin: Please come back when you've got evidence. Find a press release or at least give us your friend's name. Find someone at Funimation that is willing to go on the record saying that they don't have the show. If you can do something like this, then please return and tell us. Otherwise, we have to believe Funimation's public press release that they have licensed One Piece. Even if they were flat-out lying we would have no choice except to believe them. Unless some actual evidence to the contrary can be presented on the Record.

Mb81
2003-11-28, 23:48
Call me mister nice guy *g*:

Word Mark ONE PIECE
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Pre-recorded videocassettes, laser disks, video compact discs, digital video discs, recordable compact disks, DVD-ROMS, DVD-RAMS, video disks containing animated cartoon programs
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76392708
Filing Date April 4, 2002
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition October 29, 2002
Owner (APPLICANT) Funimation Productions, Ltd. Funimation Productions, LLC. PARTNERSHIP TEXAS 6851 N.E. Loop 820, Suite 247 Fort Worth TEXAS 76180
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date July 22, 2003

Hmm.. what tell`s us this ?

FinFangFoom
2003-11-28, 23:56
Damn! That sounds pretty convincing, especially coming from an admin. Now I might get to see if this series lives up to the hype! :D

Tabiree
2003-11-29, 03:35
Call me mister nice guy *g*:

Word Mark ONE PIECE
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Pre-recorded videocassettes, laser disks, video compact discs, digital video discs, recordable compact disks, DVD-ROMS, DVD-RAMS, video disks containing animated cartoon programs
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 76392708
Filing Date April 4, 2002
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition October 29, 2002
Owner (APPLICANT) Funimation Productions, Ltd. Funimation Productions, LLC. PARTNERSHIP TEXAS 6851 N.E. Loop 820, Suite 247 Fort Worth TEXAS 76180
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date July 22, 2003

Hmm.. what tell`s us this ?

Nothing without a link

DrWho2002
2003-11-29, 04:43
For all we know you coulda just pulled that out of your ass... I can type up a bunch of legalese and make it look legit too you know. We'll need more proof than that.

Pre-Proto
2003-11-29, 05:17
I was unaware that DVD stood for Digital Video Disc. What happened to the the Versatility it had??

Buster
2003-11-29, 06:21
You guys can't find the US Patent Office?

The search form for trade marks is here:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk

Do you want me to type "One Piece" for you also?

FinFangFoom
2003-11-29, 07:18
For all we know you coulda just pulled that out of your ass... I can type up a bunch of legalese and make it look legit too you know. We'll need more proof than that.

Why would an admin lie on the forum he is moderating? Im pretty sure there are rules just for admins on this site and i'm pretty sure lying about a licensed anime to get it distributed would be breaking one of them.

EDIT:

Do you want me to type "One Piece" for you also?

For the conveniance of NoSanninWa or GHDpro or who ever will be able to relist One Piece the fastest I went ahead and typed it out. ;) http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=8eoajo.3.2

And for the record I'm not butt kissing, I just would really like to check it out. :innocent:

xris
2003-11-29, 07:53
Thanks to Buster for pointing out the link (the item in question was taken from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office as far as I can see).

There are a number of trademark holders to the term 'One Piece' it seems, some live some dead (link here (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=qntpit.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=One+Piece&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query))

The Funimation one is dead, others are live.

The question I have is what does holding the trademark (or not) to the term 'One Piece' have to do with holding the license for the show?

P.S. ml81 is the site owner of the hardware on which AnimeSuki is running (my understanding at least). And he granted the Mod and Admin status to himself.

wao
2003-11-29, 07:59
Thanks to Buster for pointing out the link (the item in question was taken from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office as far as I can see).

There are a number of trademark holders to the term 'One Piece' it seems, some live some dead (link here (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=qntpit.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=One+Piece&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query))

The Funimation one is dead, others are live.

The question I have is what does holding a trademark (or not) to the term 'One Piece' have to do with holding the license for the show?

They (live patents) all happen to be Shueisha licensed too...

And maybe a US patent needs to be had by the distribution company before they can have rights to distribute it in America? :| I'm not too sure either, but it's interesting to see what's going on.

FinFangFoom
2003-11-29, 08:00
Well as for the ones that are alive you'll notice that they are all held by (APPLICANT) Kabushiki Kaisha Shueisha a/t/a Shueisha Inc. CORPORATION JAPAN 5-10 Hitotsubashi 2-Chome Chiyoda-Ku Tokyo JAPAN

So it's not held in America. As to your question..... I guess a little more research is in order.

GHDpro
2003-11-29, 08:43
[post deleted]

Never mind -- should have checked page 2 of this thread.

I've made a link to this thread to discuss whether or not we should list
One Piece again on the main page, similar to when Hikaru no Go (anime)
was found not to be licensed after all.

One thing I must note though is that the trademark is listed as abandoned
because "no use was filled". This could mean Funimation sat on the trade mark
for such a long time the Trademark office thought they are not going to use it.
But that's just speculation on my part.

Here's a link I found (seems to be different from the others):http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76392708&action=Request+Status

DrWho2002
2003-11-29, 11:33
You guys can't find the US Patent Office?

The search form for trade marks is here:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=login&p_lang=english&p_d=trmk

Do you want me to type "One Piece" for you also?


Sorry, I'm from Canada, I don't know how to find trademarks from the US patent office... =p

moonglaive
2003-11-29, 12:31
See below ((edit edit edit my own post...huzzah))


Yay for 5 trillion anime conventions coming to Houston...check out the original here! (http://www.oni-con.com)

moonglaive
2003-11-29, 12:39
Funimation Trademark (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ovuklp.5.7)

Shueisha's trademark on the Japanese products (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ovuklp.6.1)

More Japanese trademarks (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ovuklp.7.4)

The comics (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ovuklp.8.5)

The Japanese ones are still active, but I believe that's just to protect imported products, and keep anyone from duplicating/selling/using the name.

If there aren't any American companies with a trademark on the name, then they wouldn't have any kind of protection on the title...which means no one has it or they're very stupid....

moonglaive
2003-11-29, 12:41
Oops XD I didn't see the last few posts...yay for me being post happy today!!!

***Bah...stupid search session ended...just look up One Piece if you want to see which ones I posted....***

testing123
2003-11-29, 12:49
The question I have is what does holding the trademark (or not) to the term 'One Piece' have to do with holding the license for the show?

A trademark holder is granted the exclusive right to use for commercial purposes the title/name/logo which is trademarked. This allows the trademark holder to set up a "brand name" which can be recognized, but not copied or imitated. McDonald's "golden arches" logo is an example of a trademark. Nobody else will be allowed to use that symbol to open a restaurant. Likewise, if someone holds the One Piece trademark, nobody else will be allowed to use that in advertisements, etc.

Trademarks are different from copyrights. In fact, things which are eligible for trademark protection are generally not eligible for copyright protection, and vice versa. You can't copyright a name, like "One Piece" or "Big Mac", but you can prevent others from using it in commercial trade if you are the trademark holder.

Licensing is a matter of copyright. Copyright protects the content, but not the name itself. The fact that Funimation may or may not have a clearly registered trademark is meaningless when it comes to determining who holds the North American distribution rights.

One thing I must note though is that the trademark is listed as abandoned because "no use was filled". This could mean Funimation sat on the trade mark for such a long time the Trademark office thought they are not going to use it. But that's just speculation on my part.

This is correct. Funimation needs to demonstrate commercial use of the trademark. They cannot simply register the trademark and sit on it (the real-world equivalent to "internet domain name squatting"). Of course, if they don't have the license, they cannot make proper use the trademark, even if they have registered it.

While having the trademark fall out of use suggests that Funimation does not intend to use the One Piece name/logo, it would be jumping to conclusions to say that they do not hold the license at all, simply on this basis alone.

Imazul
2003-11-29, 13:16
I think that since is it uncertain Animesuki shouldnt list it, anyway its not like its hard for people to get One Piece episode.

In theory it is still liscenced from the above inquiry so you should go to the safe side.

moonglaive
2003-11-29, 13:17
The laws around distributing fansubs always seemed a little muddy to me. The episodes are distributed freely and for supposed personal/club use, not for monetary purposes. Which is why no one gets in trouble with the Japanese companies (either that or releasing fansubs boosts import sales so much any loss is more than made up for...whooo toys! XD).

I thought removing them from the distribution list was courtesy to the American licensing companies. The fansubbers are releasing their own versions, not the work of said companies, so I'm not sure how that works against the copyright laws.

With that said, I'd have to question the legality of distributing fan art and AMVs now...

testing123
2003-11-29, 14:08
The laws around distributing fansubs always seemed a little muddy to me. The episodes are distributed freely and for supposed personal/club use, not for monetary purposes. Which is why no one gets in trouble with the Japanese companies (either that or releasing fansubs boosts import sales so much any loss is more than made up for...whooo toys! XD).

I thought removing them from the distribution list was courtesy to the American licensing companies. The fansubbers are releasing their own versions, not the work of said companies, so I'm not sure how that works against the copyright laws.

With that said, I'd have to question the legality of distributing fan art and AMVs now...

The laws are not muddy, and in fact they are quite clear: fansubs, AMVs and most fan art are illegal. The only reason fansubbers do not get in trouble with the Japanese companies is that the Japanese companies have not yet felt the need to file lawsuits. If they did do so, the case would be pretty much decided immediately in their favor.

Simply putting on subtitles does not make anything better. These are called "derivative works", and still fall under control of the original work's copyright holder. There is no such thing as "fansubbers' own versions" as far as the law is concerned.

And if you haven't realized it, AMVs are usually a double dose of copyright infringement: once for the anime video, and once for the music soundtrack.

All this used to be spelled out in some nicely detailed posts which were on the old boards; I don't know if these were retained when the boards changed, but they were highly recommended reading, especially for those who do not understand copyright law.

xris
2003-11-29, 15:32
All this used to be spelled out in some nicely detailed posts which were on the old boards; I don't know if these were retained when the boards changed, but they were highly recommended reading, especially for those who do not understand copyright law.

Those threads haven't been lost, fortunately.

ato recreated his thread, Copyright rules and legality of fansubs (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=951). The original thread still exists here, Legal issues concerning fansubbing (http://conversion.animesuki.com/BurningBoard/thread.php?threadid=1921) and there's always the Licensed Anime (http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/licensed/) page available from the AnimeSuki front page.

ryucross
2003-11-29, 15:47
www.copywrite.gov

Everything there that is One Piece anime or manga is accredited to Toei.

xris
2003-11-29, 16:00
www.copywrite.gov

Everything there that is One Piece anime or manga is accredited to Toei.

Or do you mean www.copyright.gov

The search feature is found here http://www.copyright.gov/records/cohm.html.

But this just shows who holds the copyright, I don't see where it shows who the copyright holder has issued any licenses to.

Knave
2003-11-29, 16:19
Ok... testing123 seems to have a decent knowledge of Trademarks, and I'll add my own here, as I work in a Patent and Trademark firm. My knowledge is mostly of the Canadian system, and I'm only going from what I've seen and heard as I work in the mailroom, this should shed some light on the subject (Canadian and US Trademark rules aren't that different)

This was already mentioned, but Funimation has to have proof of the materials they intend to use the "One Piece" Trademark on, such as the DVDs, CDs, etc, etc. This is especially important if anyone decides to file an opposition to the mark (if they decide they want to use it) However, as Funimation has already filed for the trademark, they get priority over it... first dibs.

Shueisha does hold the trademark for One Piece already in the US, so this causes a bit of a problem. Again, the reason for this was probably to stop anyone from claiming priority over this mark. When Funimation went to file their Trademark "One Piece" they probably ran into a snag... Shueisha. To have the same mark, or one that resembles it, a co-existence agreement has to be signed. This would probably be simple enough as they're both going to be marketing the same merchandise. What can sometimes happen is that in the process of trying to get these agreements signed and the like, is that someone will either forget to file for an extension of time, or they are not granted that extension of time, for whatever reason.

So in this case, Funimation's mark would've become inadvertently abandoned when they didn't file an extension of time to get their stuff together. I'm not sure of the rules on reviving a dead trademark, but if it's like a patent, there's usually a certain amount of time in which they can reinstate any given trademark as long as certain conditions are met (IE - They file their "use of mark" and, if needed, they file the co-existence agreement)

So... Funimation still has the rights over the mark. They didn't voluntarily abandon it, otherwise it would say so. I *think* they have a year to reinstate the trademark from the date of abandonment, so I wouldn't get too cocky about them not having it.

I can go ask one of the trademark agents I work with who deals with US TMs on Monday for more detailed (and correct) information

JAppi
2003-11-29, 17:03
How come none of those Trademarks mention VIZ? They have the manga don't they? So why wouldn't viz be listed as a holder of the trademark? (Atleast as far as comics go)

I also checked a few other well knownly licensed anime and it would appear that only the japanese company is listed under the trademark. I personally would still consider One Piece Licensed.

Licensing does not mean that the Japanese company gives them the trademark. It just means that the company is allowing the licensor to use the trademark.

Sarke
2003-11-29, 17:11
While them dropping the trademark is intresting i'd suggest not re-listing it untill you have confirmation that they do NOT own the licence for it. Legal Headaches suck.... so do what you can to avoid them. We all want to see as much quality stuff available as possible but simply listing/seeding without confirmation is ludicrious.

Take Shaman King for example. They own the first 26 eps (contraray to what Soldats has heard)... One of my staffers (at animetorrents.com) has contacted them on numerous occasions to validate that they still only own the first 26 eps. However AS still does not list it just to be on the safe side (although we still do have it up-- I understand AS not listing it)

Wouldnt you rather have AS stay alive alot longer then have One Piece for a short while while we wait for confirmation? A big company like funi. can kill a site like this with its eyes closed!

-Sarke

Buster
2003-11-29, 18:21
How come none of those Trademarks mention VIZ? They have the manga don't they? So why wouldn't viz be listed as a holder of the trademark? (Atleast as far as comics go)

I also checked a few other well knownly licensed anime and it would appear that only the japanese company is listed under the trademark. I personally would still consider One Piece Licensed.

Licensing does not mean that the Japanese company gives them the trademark. It just means that the company is allowing the licensor to use the trademark.

You have a point. Same holds true for Shaman King, yet Shonen Jump carries the TM mark on both logos. Their license deal no doubt includes the licensing of Shueisha's trademarks. It may be that Funi allowed the TM to lapse because it simply wasn't necessary; or it may be that Shueisha prefers that other companies use their TM instead of creating one of their own.

I notice Shueisha has the right to sell One Piece pies. I wonder if they are meat pies?

(mmm....meat pie)

JAppi
2003-11-29, 18:52
You have a point. Same holds true for Shaman King, yet Shonen Jump carries the TM mark on both logos.

That could mean that the orginal company holds the TM and not Viz.


Their license deal no doubt includes the licensing of Shueisha's trademarks. It may be that Funi allowed the TM to lapse because it simply wasn't necessary; or it may be that Shueisha prefers that other companies use their TM instead of creating one of their own.

That's my theory.


I notice Shueisha has the right to sell One Piece pies. I wonder if they are meat pies?

(mmm....meat pie)

Hmm would that make it illegal to sell one piece of pie? damn now they're going to have to start selling 2 peices.


This is a bit off topic but I noticed in my canadian copy of Shonen Jump it says it was printed in Canada? Is that the same for the american ones too?

GHDpro
2003-11-29, 18:56
JAppi: Afaik Shueisha owns/co-operates with Viz.

JAppi
2003-11-29, 19:15
Yes I believe Shueisha does own part of viz.

Look up something commonly know to be licensed like Evangelion.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=7m2nhg.3.1

is what comes up.

It says Gainax at the bottom it doesn't even mention adv at all. Gainax Licensed it to ADV, so Gainax would still have the trademark.

|Aion|
2003-11-29, 21:09
How is One Piece,i have been thinking about downloading it for quite some time,every time i back out of it,cause of the whole story about that guy being a pirate who was turned into somekind of rubber human being.Its not real kiddy is it?

hentai_man
2003-11-29, 21:21
um the link to that is on the homepage of anime suki... also im sure it as distrubution only but if u look at the one piece toys from japan they have bandai slappe don the side.. i wonde rif toei madea deal with bandai usa/... of course that pure specualtion... oh! but i got a magazine form my anime club about viz mnga. and it said that one piec was going to be on cartoon network...* edit* doh i didnt rralize this thread was three pages long... im tired

El Diablo
2003-11-29, 22:14
How is One Piece,i have been thinking about downloading it for quite some time,every time i back out of it,cause of the whole story about that guy being a pirate who was turned into somekind of rubber human being.Its not real kiddy is it?
Well, it could be seen as kiddy because its really light hearted. But it isn't kiddy really. Although, whatever you do, DON'T get the eps on kazaa, since they're all HKDVD, and the subs are at an all time low. It is still being subbed by another group though, and their subs are good quality.

Kite
2003-11-29, 22:26
You should put it up. If Funi says that they have it then take it off. If someone else says that they have it take it off. It's basically in limbo right now. Noone outside of the companies know what has happened to it. So put it up. Someone may or may not eventually license it then take it off.

That's my 2 cents.

MasterMagicianPug
2003-11-30, 00:15
I did read an anime magazine where the author of the article tried to contact Funimation about their license for One Piece. All they said was, "No comment."
To me that seems like they don't have the license and are still trying to acquire it. I say you list torrents to One Piece untill Funimation or someone starts showing some proof that they really have the One Piece License.

It4ch[I]
2003-11-30, 00:15
so wat iz the server and the channel name?

NightWish
2003-11-30, 02:03
Sorry people, but it is still listed as licensed on the Grand High List and AnimeSuki's official position has not yet changed because it is still being debated. If you can't deal with this -- tough luck.

No more links -- please.

(I've removed some posts -- they can be "undeleted" IF the official position changes, although I guess they'll be redundant by then)

JAppi
2003-11-30, 02:30
If Funi says that they have it then take it off. If someone else says that they have it take it off.

The license has already been anounced. The companys inform us with their press releases. If the situation had changed they would announce it in another press release.


Noone outside of the companies know what has happened to it

actually we do not what happened to it. It was licensed a while ago.

That's my 2 cents.

It's good that you posted your opinion.

It bothers me a bit that people who are posting right now didn't read the last few pages of posts to see what has and has not been already discussed. So they just post their opinion. An Opinion is not a fact. that is why we have a word for opinion and facts.

BurnHavoc
2003-11-30, 03:02
The laws are not muddy, and in fact they are quite clear: fansubs, AMVs and most fan art are illegal.

Last I checked, unless selling for profit, AMVs and fan art are protected under fair use laws.

JAppi
2003-11-30, 04:08
Last I checked, unless selling for profit, AMVs and fan art are protected under fair use laws.


Yup. Since you're using the show and music to create something new with a new idea and theme you are allowed to use the music/show under fair use.

Sarke
2003-11-30, 09:05
While them dropping the trademark is intresting i'd suggest not re-listing it untill you have confirmation that they do NOT own the licence for it. Legal Headaches suck.... so do what you can to avoid them. We all want to see as much quality stuff available as possible but simply listing/seeding without confirmation is ludicrious.

Take Shaman King for example. They own the first 26 eps (contraray to what Soldats has heard)... One of my staffers (at animetorrents.com) has contacted them on numerous occasions to validate that they still only own the first 26 eps. However AS still does not list it just to be on the safe side (although we still do have it up-- I understand AS not listing it)

Wouldnt you rather have AS stay alive alot longer then have One Piece for a short while while we wait for confirmation? A big company like funi. can kill a site like this with its eyes closed!

-Sarke

Mb81
2003-11-30, 12:06
While them dropping the trademark is intresting i'd suggest not re-listing it untill you have confirmation that they do NOT own the licence for it. Legal Headaches suck.... so do what you can to avoid them. We all want to see as much quality stuff available as possible but simply listing/seeding without confirmation is ludicrious.

Take Shaman King for example. They own the first 26 eps (contraray to what Soldats has heard)... One of my staffers (at animetorrents.com) has contacted them on numerous occasions to validate that they still only own the first 26 eps. However AS still does not list it just to be on the safe side (although we still do have it up-- I understand AS not listing it)

Wouldnt you rather have AS stay alive alot longer then have One Piece for a short while while we wait for confirmation? A big company like funi. can kill a site like this with its eyes closed!

-Sarke

Well; they cannot. Gerard can add up links to DBZ or OnePiece or etc.. (even could offer the download direct via page) just if he just want to (and we have the capabilities) without any thoughts.

- Mb
http://www.dragoballz.de
http://www.onepiece.de

Lambda
2003-11-30, 12:23
Yup. Since you're using the show and music to create something new with a new idea and theme you are allowed to use the music/show under fair use.

You might get away with that with respect to the anime, since you're only using small bits of it, but with respect to the music it's a derivative work. Adding pictures to the music doesn't make it legal, just as adding subtitles to anime doesn't make fansubs legal.

Unless of course you use music that isn't copyrighted. Use free music or old music (expired copyright), and maybe you can make a legal AMV.

As for the central issue under discussion, I think the general moral attitude of this part of the fansubbing community towards licensing is "trust the companies." Take something like, say, FMPF, and it's perfectly reasonable to call that "probably licensed", but because, if it is, nobody's announced it, we continue to distribute it. Note that just because a company claims they have it it doesn't mean it's going to get over, they might have problems or reconsider, so it's still in the meaningful sense from a moral point of view only "probably licensed", but because someone's announced it we trust them and stop distribution.

So in this case, while there might be "reasonable doubt" over its status as licensed, there is always a similar sort of doubt over the question of whether something will arrive until it actually does. Since a company has announced it and has not retracted that announcement, the required balance of proof shifts, and, despite the fact that you could now point to certain titles being distributed as being "more probably licensed" than this one, you would now require highly convincing proof of its non-licensed status (with Funi) to consider it unlicensed according to the fansubbers code.

Therefore, my interpretation of the general fansubbers' "only do unlicensed anime" code dictates that One Piece be regarded as licensed.

On the other hand, this is only relevant if AS refuses to list unlicensed anime on the basis of the general fansubbers' "only do unlicensed anime" code. If we're talking about minimizing legal risk whilst making anime more widely available, then the situation is entirely different. I don't think any extra risk would be incurred by listing One Piece, under the policy of only listing titles that cannot be confirmed as licensed, and believing in good faith that there is sufficient doubt to its status to list it. After all, why on Earth would Funimation take legal action in such a situation, being both a costly effort and damaging to their image in anime fandom, when they could also have it taken down by the simple, easy and entirely non-controversial measure of simply privately pointing out that they do in fact still have it? No sane company resorts to legal action to address a problem that can be solved with a single message. So under this consideration, I don't see a problem.

So my answer to the question would come in the form of a question itself: Does animesuki refuse to list licensed anime due to ethical or practical considerations?

maxthelostboy
2003-11-30, 16:42
All fansubs are illegal . So would listing licensed anime be more illegal? Or is it a thing if noone knows nothing happens sorta of thing?

LynnieS
2003-11-30, 17:02
IMHO, there can be any number of reasons why Funimation isn't saying one way or another, ranging from obeying contractual obligations to wanting to make a bigger splash in the future - e.g., TokyoPop with its licensing of "Marmalade Boy". I don't think that Funimation is required to make a press release regarding any of their holdings that may be pertinent to their financial situation - the company doesn't appear to be publically traded - but I'm not in finance so take this last part with a grain of salt.

But a "no comment" is not a denial or a confirmation. It just means that something is going on, and no one can interpret it without additional information. A statement like this is, therefore, completely null in content. Anyone is welcome to interpret it with his opinions on the matter, but a "no comment" statement contributes nothing and gives absolutely no weight to his opinions.

As it currently stands, the press release issued by Funimation when they said that they have the license - and given that the property's actual owner has not contradicted the statement - is really the only solid piece of evidence one has on the subject. There is no reason why Funimation has to provide hard evidence on its license like an actual release date; they don't forfeit the game if they choose to disregard one's demand that the company's hand be shown. From a competitive point of view, a company that does that every single time comes up a loser, IMHO; you play your cards close to your vest till it's time to collect the winnings.

dythim
2003-11-30, 20:20
Something I heard but could never confirm was that Funimation deleted all posts regarding One Piece from their forums. Anyone hear of that?

bayoab
2003-11-30, 21:30
Take Shaman King for example. They own the first 26 eps (contraray to what Soldats has heard)... One of my staffers (at animetorrents.com) has contacted them on numerous occasions to validate that they still only own the first 26 eps. However AS still does not list it just to be on the safe side (although we still do have it up-- I understand AS not listing it)

-Sarke

I have no idea who you are communicating with, but when Funimation was asked about shaman king, they responded something to the effect that 4kids has intentions to the do the entire series. This equates to all 64 eps being licensed. Funimation is planning to release dvd's for the entire series. (Note that 4kids is absolutly clueless about whats going on with SK, their press release contained so many factual errors that it was clear that either a) it was written up about 1/2 a year before it was actually released. or b) their marketing department knows nothing)

|Aion|
2003-12-01, 19:16
Well i just weatched the first 10 episodes of One Piece,id have to say its good,still seems a little kiddy as i said before but not as much as i thought.Has quite abit of comedy in it,which i love to see,comedy is my favorite genre of everything.So as of right now ill give it a 7/10,might get higher or lower as i progress in the story.

Darren Garrison
2003-12-02, 01:16
I was unaware that DVD stood for Digital Video Disc. What happened to the the Versatility it had??

The original name was Digital Video Disc. Which was later changed to Digital Versatile Disc (because DVDs are intended for more than just video). Now, DVD officially doesn't stand for anything-- the full name of DVD is-- DVD. Sort of like KFC.

method
2003-12-02, 23:21
The original name was Digital Video Disc. Which was later changed to Digital Versatile Disc (because DVDs are intended for more than just video). Now, DVD officially doesn't stand for anything-- the full name of DVD is-- DVD. Sort of like KFC.

Here's an interesting news item from ANN.

Following reports that FUNimation had lost the One Piece license, ANN contacted them today to find out whether they had in fact lost the license or not. The surprise, was an explanation that they had in fact never licensed One Piece and that the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=4404

sokpupet
2003-12-03, 00:25
i was just about to copy and paste that.

so yeah, funimation doesn't have it. and if they do, they'll order a cease and desist. if you want to find out, just put it back up.

Fronzel
2003-12-03, 00:30
Getting a C&D isn't so bad, is it? You can just comply.

chmblspuzz
2003-12-03, 00:45
:) Well, this is probably moot since its gonna get picked up soon anyway, and is, after all, available all over the net anyway... (crosses fingers, hoping Funi doesn't get the license)

FinFangFoom
2003-12-03, 01:11
I would'nt say it's completely moot since it could take several more months before it is licensed. That would give many people time watch the series before then if it was listed on animesuki.

Vicious
2003-12-03, 01:12
I've just read in other site that One Piece was never licensed by Bandai, like people said before. Well, if it actually appears on ANN's site, I think it's safe to say it's safe to put One Piece in Animesuki now.

moonglaive
2003-12-03, 04:45
Well, I asked on a friend's MB (Kyle Hebert's) which started a huge war over whether dubs were good or not yadda yadda, and I have found out that not only does Funimation no longer have the rights, but apparently they never did (?!?!?!?)

ANN asked FUNi about it (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=4404)

Also if you want to look at the message board posts

Just ignore the Dub vs. Sub stuff... (http://kylehebert.irev.net/viewtopic.php?TopicID=3745)

Buster
2003-12-03, 08:14
:) Well, this is probably moot since its gonna get picked up soon anyway, and is, after all, available all over the net anyway... (crosses fingers, hoping Funi doesn't get the license)

It is quite absurd to assume that One Piece will be licensed any time soon. It has been a huge hit in Japan for years, and it still has not been licensed, for some very good reasons.

It looks like a kiddy show, but it is not. All the heroes (and many of the villains) are pirates, and it is no secret what pirates do. They plunder, they pillage and they steal. Worse than that, Sanji is a CHAIN SMOKER! How are you going to fix every frame of Sanji? Introduce a subplot where he is diagnosed with cancer and then say its medicinal marijuana?

Violence. TONS of violence. This is not Shaman King, this is not Yu-Gi-Oh, it's not even Yu-Yu Hakusho. US companies will not be able to place this with any network except, slim possibility, Cartoon Network. But I'll bet their Adult Swim audience wouldn't go for it (too "kiddy"), and the CN media buyers probaby know this.

But because it is a huge hit in Japan (and has been successfully licensed in much of Europe), the license will be expensive, at least until the show concludes and starts to be forgotten (years from now, the next theatrical movie looks to be the most elaborate). Too expensive for a quick dump to DVD to make any money.

Licensing of One Piece is a sure thing.......eventually. But not necessarily this year.

Available all over the net? Are you talking about the horrible "engrish" HK subs? The Kaizoku fansubs are far superior, and I am the only person actively posting them to Usenet. I have to move from the west coast to the east coast soon and will not be able to continue.

You are correct that it's all moot, though...the torrents are at last linked here! Yatta!

Can I now be the first to offer a rules-abiding link to http://www.kaizoku-fansubs.com?

bayoab
2003-12-03, 10:17
A few things to think about...


1) ANN has no source cited, just "We contacted Funi", they dont name who or what department. ANN used to be known for posting errors, infactual statements, and rumors. There is a reason there is a joke on the "Most trusted". Why would funi suddenly decide after the most recent con season to change their answer from "no comment" to "no, we dont have it"? This article also disagrees with the first post on this thread... (Gee, now who is telling us the truth?)

2) A little research turns up some contradictions about what the ANN post said about the original information.
I present this research in no particular order:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4536
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4579
http://kylehebert.irev.net/viewtopic.php?TopicID=3745&page=2
http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=270624&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

(read the next post on the AOD link too)

3) It appears that alot of this information is based on the drop of the copyright, a dub actor brushing off a "yea, they dont have it" comment, and a fansite going "they dropped it". There are no legit links from the industry. Also, someone made the following comment: "This wouldnt be the first time someone lied about not having something."


It is quite absurd to assume that One Piece will be licensed any time soon. It has been a huge hit in Japan for years, and it still has not been licensed, for some very good reasons.


Why it is absurd to assume that it will not be done anytime soon. It is clear they are trying to license it. Continued Distro of the subs will probably just further feed the people who do not buy r1's as will continued subbing of the series. [Removal of opinion that distro of material that is obviously licensed or clearly in negotiations is the same as sub/distro licensed]. IIRC, K-F said "yea, they only licensed the first 50" or something like that a couple months ago...

Lefteris_D
2003-12-03, 10:36
It has been licenced in several countries so the US will follow soon. I've already seen around 50 episodes on tv already so I guess I am one of the "lucky"* ones.



*= Does lucky invlude this (http://www.nova.gr/english/tvguide.asp?movieid=107372)? I'd rather download a fansub than this thing... Yes that's the local dub of One Piece...

GHDpro
2003-12-03, 11:12
Oh well... the links are now on the site, BUT... it's dead easy
to remove them in one go again as well.

Maybe by putting up the links we can stir up some discussion
or contraversy which will finally confirm it for sure if Funimation
really has the license or not.

At present I'm still inclined to say Funimation does not have it
or no longer has it...

Buster
2003-12-03, 11:22
bayoab -- what do message board listings prove? Yes, I agree that ANN is a lousy source -- but they were the primary source of the word that OP was licensed in the first place.

The point is, there is no smoking gun to show that Funimation ever obtained a license to release OP in the first place. Funimation does not provide an online archive of its press releases (unlike virtually every other significant business entity).

The burden here is not for me or K-F to prove that Funi doesn't have OP, the burden is for anyone to show any reasonable evidence that they do. And I am fairly confident that this won't happen. They certainly would have stepped in by now to say something if such a license existed. There's nothing stopping them from speaking at any moment.

Lefteris, I stated myself that OP has been successfully licensed in much of Europe. That does not matter.

US television is forbidden by FCC code from broadcasting a kids' series in which a good guy is a chain smoker. They won't even show people smoking in most series aimed toward adults.

That's not even addressing the levels of violence and the emotional content of some of the episodes (characters actually die tragically, and these deaths are essential to the plot).

We "protect" our kids from that stuff in the US.

Why it is absurd to assume that it will not be done anytime soon. It is clear they are trying to license it.

I provided several reasons why OP is a difficult license, and you have not addressed them.

moonglaive
2003-12-03, 11:33
All right, all right. I'm asking Funimation if they currently hold the license...as much fun as all this banter is. If the ANN/voice actors replies aren't good enough, I want to know how everyone knew Funi HAD picked it up (there's nothing on their webpage stating anything), and I can only find info relating to it in a con report and fanpages...cause those are SO much more reliable XD

Is there a reason no one else has asked? Or is it simply because the Funimation website REALLY needs some contact info...or any info on anything other than just Dragonball....

Buster
2003-12-03, 11:38
Is there a reason no one else has asked? Or is it simply because the Funimation website REALLY needs some contact info...or any info on anything other than just Dragonball....

People have asked. Their reply has always been that it is against their policy to talk about upcoming releases.

I can't speak for K-F, but I believe this is the reason they have continued with the subs. There was never anything other than these [inaccurate] convention reports, and Funi just spouts policy to those who ask.

Rebochan
2003-12-03, 12:12
US television is forbidden by FCC code from broadcasting a kids' series in which a good guy is a chain smoker. They won't even show people smoking in most series aimed toward adults. False. Check the FCC codes sometime - they are only allowed to place restrictions on content deemed "obscene." To be obscene requires significantly more than people smoking. Try watching Looney Tunes broadcasts sometime and you'll find plenty of smokers. Taking smoking out is a more recent self-censorship in the industry, not a restriction by the FCC. This is a very silly urban legend that has rooted itself in the anime community for ages.

And why is there this strange assumption that if One Piece licenses it will be a cut dub only? Seeing how Funimation has picked up and released several uncut sub/dub releases already, I fail to see why they'd change their strategy anytime soon unless they're only distributing someone else's license (such as the case with the 4Kids licenses).

Kay Hearts
2003-12-03, 12:28
I donŽt know about all the licensing news and rumors, just when I donŽt see a series listed anymore I have to bear with it :P

so..well, right now IŽll run to dl what I can until more news come hehe Hey, IŽll probably wonŽt see this anime elsewhere, my countryŽs anime selection is quite poor though the manga ir currently being published no one seems to care to realease the anime.

Mb81
2003-12-03, 12:45
I provided several reasons why OP is a difficult license, and you have not addressed them.

It`s not difficult; it just wouldn`t be not successfull enough within US and therefore to expensive to license. Pretty simple. Funi got the option for the series but they took other series like Detective Conan.

Before somebody ask; this is just a dark rumor *g*...

- Mb

Buster
2003-12-03, 12:46
False. Check the FCC codes sometime - they are only allowed to place restrictions on content deemed "obscene." To be obscene requires significantly more than people smoking. Try watching Looney Tunes broadcasts sometime and you'll find plenty of smokers. Taking smoking out is a more recent self-censorship in the industry, not a restriction by the FCC. This is a very silly urban legend that has rooted itself in the anime community for ages.

I oversimplified. Surely you have noticed the little black boxes with legends in them that say "TV-Y" "TV-G" etcetera? Those are mandated by the FCC, because the FCC threatened legislation if the industry did not police themselves.

The FCC threatened legislation to force the codes into effect. That is what I mean by "FCC codes." The industry had a gun to its head when the codes were devised, and they do address every issue that the FCC wanted them to, so what the F is the difference?

Mb81, I don't doubt One Piece could be quite successful in the US if it could be properly dubbed and televised. But I really don't think it can get a US airing in an adult setting, nor is it airable within the "children's hour."

Buster
2003-12-03, 12:56
Sorry accidental double-post...

method
2003-12-03, 14:01
That is a good point about OP Buster. On a couple of boards I visit that question comes up on concerning the best block for shows like One Piece and Naruto. Really the audience of the show will determine where it goes (of course this scenario depends on who gets these 2 series). Anyway there was a crackdown on the advertising of tobacco products in the mid-90's, so having a character smoke could be scene as advertising to minors. Also the looney tunes cartoons that depict a character smoking are not shown at a children's hour. Though for some reason a character smoking a pipe was broadcast during G gundam. I guess the thinking is that kids aren't going to go out and start smoking pipes like cigarettes. Anyway the highest CN goes for their toonami block is TV-7FY. So that will lead to alot of editing if what people say is true.

JAppi
2003-12-03, 14:17
I'm sure that if they aired it in canada it wouldn't have to be as heavily edited. Sadly most american companys don't realize that Canada and the Untited States are different markets and have different broadcasting standards.

Mb81
2003-12-03, 15:43
Mb81, I don't doubt One Piece could be quite successful in the US if it could be properly dubbed and televised. But I really don't think it can get a US airing in an adult setting, nor is it airable within the "children's hour."

Well, successful compared to ? Yu-Gi-Oh! ? DragonBallZ ? Shaman King ?
Not compared to these series. One Piece is a really good show (why else i own www.onepiece.de) but compared to the listed series, much less popular in Europe (and i know the tv ratios and the licence holders). In addition to that, also much less merchandise.

I doesn`t mean, that One Piece will not come to US; but not as long, als series like Yu-Gi-Oh! rule over the market.

About the adult setting; it runs here in germany, among with InuYasha (i call it InuYasha Lite *g*) in the afternoon children program with small cuts (only people how know the raw japanese version could see the difference; more about the cuts; visit this site: http://www.animedigital.de). So i doubt about an adult setting.

Rebochan
2003-12-03, 16:00
I oversimplified. Surely you have noticed the little black boxes with legends in them that say "TV-Y" "TV-G" etcetera? Those are mandated by the FCC, because the FCC threatened legislation if the industry did not police themselves.

The FCC threatened legislation to force the codes into effect. That is what I mean by "FCC codes." The industry had a gun to its head when the codes were devised, and they do address every issue that the FCC wanted them to, so what the F is the difference? The difference is that the FCC has still not banned smoking in a television program and since the industry is currently self-policing itself the FCC is not actively banning content yet unless it is considered obscene. Your original statement was incorrect, so yes, there is a difference. No need to be rude.

Mb81, I don't doubt One Piece could be quite successful in the US if it could be properly dubbed and televised. But I really don't think it can get a US airing in an adult setting, nor is it airable within the "children's hour." I'm not Mb81, but why does the chances of a television airing have anything to do with One Piece getting licensed in North America? Just how many series have come over here that have never hit the airwaves and still gotten a properly translated version? And a good number of these are kids shows to boot.

bayoab
2003-12-03, 16:09
bayoab -- what do message board listings prove? Yes, I agree that ANN is a lousy source -- but they were the primary source of the word that OP was licensed in the first place.

The point is, there is no smoking gun to show that Funimation ever obtained a license to release OP in the first place. Funimation does not provide an online archive of its press releases (unlike virtually every other significant business entity).

The point of those links was the sources of the information. ANN has yet to come up with any valid sources for their information. And some of those werent just any forum links, they are people who have more insight into the industry or are in it. The reason that everyone says that Funi has one piece was because they said they did. It wasnt something ANN came up with and this is a retraction.



I provided several reasons why OP is a difficult license, and you have not addressed them.
The majority of your reasons were null issues because they all assumed that One piece was going to be broadcast on tv. They can probably put One piece in the 11pm adult swim timeslot nearly uncut. Just because a company is interested in licensing a childrens series does not mean its going to be on TV.

Mb81
2003-12-03, 17:13
The difference is that the FCC has still not banned smoking in a television program and since the industry is currently self-policing itself the FCC is not actively banning content yet unless it is considered obscene. Your original statement was incorrect, so yes, there is a difference. No need to be rude.

I'm not Mb81, but why does the chances of a television airing have anything to do with One Piece getting licensed in North America? Just how many series have come over here that have never hit the airwaves and still gotten a properly translated version? And a good number of these are kids shows to boot.

It means money; can you image how much the rights for the nr. 1 anime series in japan (currently + record holder in manga solds) cost ? One Piece isn`t a small Anime Series like Kiddy Grade...

Remus Lupin
2003-12-03, 17:58
Following reports that FUNimation had lost the One Piece license, ANN contacted them today to find out whether they had in fact lost the license or not. The surprise, was an explanation that they had in fact never licensed One Piece and that the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

Hmmm Interesting. It sounds familiar. Like Someone else Said it before.
Hate to say it but... Told Ya.
The Grand High Licencing list is not LAW. They fail to update when companies lose their licence or in this case when the company get misquoted.

Rebochan
2003-12-03, 18:29
It means money; can you image how much the rights for the nr. 1 anime series in japan (currently + record holder in manga solds) cost ? One Piece isn`t a small Anime Series like Kiddy Grade... It doesn't mean the show won't be licensed without a TV deal. How many shows come out every year that are hardly small licenses that still don't get aired on television? I'm not saying it doesn't come into play when it's a huge series like One Piece, but the DVD market is hardly small potatoes. If they think there's enough money to be made by unleashing it on a fandom willing to plunk down the $30 or so for the DVDs on a regular basis, I would think that would play a bigger role than whether it will run on TV.

Though as pointed out earlier by another poster, I could see this one airing mostly uncut on Adult Swim without any problems.

Rebochan
2003-12-03, 19:13
For a more interesting take on the situation with One Piece, check the Anime on DVD forums discussion here:

http://forums.animeondvd.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=270421&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Chris Beveridge, who reported on it for AOD, makes some enlightening statements that show this may be a bit deeper than "Whoops, everyone was wrong!"

method
2003-12-03, 21:00
Hmmm Interesting. It sounds familiar. Like Someone else Said it before.
Hate to say it but... Told Ya.
The Grand High Licencing list is not LAW. They fail to update when companies lose their licence or in this case when the company get misquoted.

:thinker: What prize do you want?

Well I don't about One Piece airing on Adult Swim. CN has been catching a lot of heat for airing shounen series like Inuyasha and they may be hesitant about adding another series like that.

Remus Lupin
2003-12-03, 21:40
[QUOTE=method]:thinker: What prize do you want?[QUOTE]

A New Car :P

method
2003-12-04, 00:41
Sure why not.
domestic or import.

NinjaServ
2003-12-04, 01:50
:thinker: What prize do you want?

Well I don't about One Piece airing on Adult Swim. CN has been catching a lot of heat for airing shounen series like Inuyasha and they may be hesitant about adding another series like that.
huh? what are you talking about, you got a article to back that up? i never heard anything about it...

method
2003-12-04, 02:16
hmmm
Most of that was refering to message board discussion I've had over at toonzone (Cartoon Network fansite) concerning future series being added for toonami or adult swim. The heat was mostly from other people on different boards complaining that Adult Swim should be called teen swim or something like that because of airing shows like Yu Yu Hakusho, Inuyasha, and other shows that are not considered adult. What worries CN is placing a series in an appropriate time slot so that it can garner its audience whether it is adults or kids.

Alot of people automatically assume that since the violence is so high in a series that it has to go to Adult Swim because CN will butcher it if it was placed on toonami, which is not neccassarily true. Take YYH for example. It started out on Adult Swim, but garnered a young demographic so they had to switch it to toonami where more of that audience could enjoy it. It is quite possible that One Piece would be rejected by the core Adult Swim audience and end up shipped to toonami also.

Buster
2003-12-04, 02:42
Not all television airings are equivalent...basic cable is known for miniscule audience share, and an airing on Adult Swim probably is a trivial addition to DVD revenues. The same is not true for an airing on, for instance, Fox, or a successful syndication.

I did not, however, say there MUST be a TV airing for One Piece to be licensed. But the speculation that has been flying around is that the candidates to buy are Funi and 4Kids -- those guys are highly likely to look at a high-profile show with TV in mind.

When you add in the fact that this very successful show has remained unlicensed for years, it seems very likely that the licensors are making unusual requests of would-be licensees. By "unusual requests," I mean that they may either be looking for an amount of money that might make a profitable DVD release a big "if" -- or more likely they are looking for a licensee who will get the show a proper TV deal, and therefore more licensing money -- not just the TV money, but ancillary licensing -- the toy and fast food deals -- where the real money in kiddie TV is. Ancillary deals for shows that air on Adult Swim are few and cheap.

All of this is speculation on my part, and I never said it was anything else, but people are arguing with me as if I have read the wrong Bible.

When I said "what the F," I was simply stressing the phrase "what is the difference." I'll apologize for being crude, but my intention was not rude -- in conversation I would not have used the letter F.

It remains that I do not see a difference between the government passing a law to prevent kids from seeing people smoke on TV, and the government forcing the TV industry to create a ratings system that will do the same thing, under threat of legislation.

Yah, it's a voluntary rating system -- except if they volunteer to dump it, they will be handed a code by the government, enforced by law.

The legislation mandating the V-Chip was announced by Clinton in one of his first speeches after taking office; do you really think the federal government is going to mandate firmware to manufacturers to support a "voluntary" system?

So my point remains the same: as the result of government action, you will never ever ever see a principal character in a children's program who is a chain-smoker.

Now, One Piece might be licensed tomorrow. I really don't know. But aside from any speculation by you or by me, here is the simplest possible logic:

One Piece first aired in 1999, and has been among the most successful anime series ever to air in Japan.

In the 4 years since that first episode, no US company has licensed it.

What is it that makes people so sure that, after 4 years of no licensing, it will be licensed tomorrow?

I have had some communications with folks in Kaizoku today, and they are very happy to have been accepted back into the community. It was the feeling at K-F that, when they were unable to get any confirmation (yes, they did ask Funi straight out), or see any form of a press release, after ANN's initial announcement of a license, their best course was to continue their work until they were directly advised of a license, or had hard evidence of it.

Seeing as they were to some extent exiled for this erroneous report, it seems a bit cheap for people to keep insisting that this situation isn't exactly what it seems to be: a huge error made at a 2002 convention that is only being realized now.

I am pretty much "argued out" on this, I'm surprised that people are so anxious to assume "guilty until proven innocent" with regards to Kaizoku.

I'll be glad to continue this as a conversation, but would rather not continue it as an argument. If I don't respond to future posts on this issue, it is because no matter what you and I say, this situation will clarify as time goes on.

Rebochan
2003-12-04, 03:02
I'll try to deal with the parts of the response that are relevant.

Well, I've been reading up on just what the demands were from the FCC about the ratings system. And guess what? They wanted it implemented because of sex and violence. Smoking never came up, period. The government has not cracked down on smoking, there is STILL no FCC nazis that will ban the show from airing with a smoker. As I pointed out, Looney Tunes, which is still considered children's program and runs during all hours of the day, still shows lead characters smoking. It's not common, and this has nothing to do with the FCC, but pressure from anti-smoking organizations who feel that if children ever even see a cigarette they become chain-smoking cigarette maniacs. No matter how you try to twist this around, it's not the government regulating this, nor the FCC's insistence on a rating system, it's the industry itself deciding what is and isn't going to be shown.

I would also say the license issue with One Piece probably has a lot to do with how massive the entire series is, coupled with the fact it is still on-going. A company buying into this one is going to hope that a license this expensive, carrying well over 150 episodes that are still being produced weekly in addition the various films and specials, will bring enough of a fandom to warrant the jump. It's only recently that companies have been licensing series over here either before or during their first run in Japan with any regularity. I would also imagine, especially because One Piece is a Toei product, that the license may be much more complicated than we can guess. Toei's licenses are notoriously tangled properties - just look at all the hoops companies over here had to jump through for Dragonball/Z and Sailor Moon.

I'm sure a television deal will be considered, but to continue saying it's a much more major component than it truly is when anime in America is still largely a home video market is over-exaggerating.

I would like to add one more thing - we still don't know if the initial license announcement was truly erroneous. I linked to the AoD forums for a reason, because there were several posters who actually attended the panel where FUNi announced the license. There were many people who brought forward evidence of dubbing pilots and people trying out for VA roles (but later denying it due to contract issues). FUNi has been asked about One Piece ever since the initial announcement and it is only now that they've finally said they never had it - it was always "no comment" before. There is more than meets the eye to this, and I doubt we've heard the last of this. I'm glad Kaizoku has continued subbing - seeing how nobody has promoted a license, I can't fault them. But to claim they've been ostracized due to false news reports is spurious when the details are still unfolding.

Buster
2003-12-04, 03:08
Do me a favor -- go to www.tvguidelines.org which is the official site of the folks who make the TV ratings. Tell me what they forbid and what they don't.

You will not find anything there. The reason being, they change their basis for ratings constantly, in response to parental demand.

And do you know how parents feel about smoking?

By any stretch of the imagination, can you imagine parents not complaining, in huge numbers, if their kids are exposed to a cartoon where a hero has a coffin nail perpetually attached to his lip?

Not to be rude, but what is that you are smoking?

Since the guidelines are both changing and secret, neither you nor I will be proven right on this.

Let's allow the future to tell us...show me one kid's show broadcast in US TV with a chain-smoker as a principal "good guy," and I will eat a pack of Marlboro Reds.

And why are you still contending that I said there must be a TV deal? Did you not read all of my post? Consider especially the word "speculation."

Why do you seem to want to argue rather than converse?

method
2003-12-04, 03:18
Not all television airings are equivalent...basic cable is known for miniscule audience share, and an airing on Adult Swim probably is a trivial addition to DVD revenues. The same is not true for an airing on, for instance, Fox, or a successful syndication.

This is where I may have to disagree with you. When it comes to anime CN has the biggest effect because of so few channels airing anime. FLCL was such a huge success on Adult Swim that Synchpoint had to stop the inclusion of the booklets to keep up with the demand. Then there was Gundam Wing. The MSG movies were released first but did not garner any attention from the anime viewing public. When Wing aired on Toonami, the gundam franschise took off. I could think of some other examples, but you get the idea. The problem with Fox is that its Saturday morning block is controled by 4kids which would mean no uneditted dvds.


I think that popularity of the title leads people to think it will be licensed. ADV licensed Aura Battler Dunbine and that is close to 20 years old. Pioneer is releasing Lupin III and that one is as old as I am. One Piece from what I've seen is one of the most asked about titles on various boards and the recent events go to prove that.


Just to add to Buster post.
There is a hypocritical streak that runs through most parents groups. Since most them grew up on shows like Looney Tunes, they don't put up much of a fuss concerning them because they weren't affected by them so they assume their kids won't be either. While a show that is new and features realistic human characters is more likely to bring the ire of these groups.

Rebochan
2003-12-04, 03:50
Do me a favor -- go to www.tvguidelines.org (http://www.tvguidelines.org) which is the official site of the folks who make the TV ratings. Tell me what they forbid and what they don't.



You will not find anything there. The reason being, they change their basis for ratings constantly, in response to parental demand. Which is EXACTLY the point I have been making - nothing is being federally banned, the FCC is not controlling this, the viewing public are the ones who are placing certain demands on the industry, which is self-policing. Finally, we agree.



And do you know how parents feel about smoking?



By any stretch of the imagination, can you imagine parents not complaining, in huge numbers, if their kids are exposed to a cartoon where a hero has a coffin nail perpetually attached to his lip?



Not to be rude, but what is that you are smoking? Clearly something that makes me wonder why a point I just made in my last post is now being used as a point for your own argument. I'd just like to add that you'd be surprised what they can get away with now if you put a show on the right network.



Since the guidelines are both changing and secret, neither you nor I will be proven right on this. The argument I was making was that the industry sets it's own guidelines, and not the federal government. What guidelines are chosen by the industry is irrelevant, as that was not the original point of debate.



Let's allow the future to tell us...show me one kid's show broadcast in US TV with a chain-smoker as a principal "good guy," and I will eat a pack of Marlboro Reds. Pop-Eye shorts. Bon appetite.



And why are you still contending that I said there must be a TV deal? Did you not read all of my post? Consider especially the word "speculation." Because you're the one who keeps bringing it up, therefore it's a point that's fair for debate.



Why do you seem to want to argue rather than converse? Is debate no longer a valid component of conversation? Or were you simply expecting acquiesance to your every word? It would be a boring conversation if that were the case. I hope you're not taking any of this personally, if that is the case - I'm perfectly willing to accept that we hold different opinions, but I will not give up my own right to express the difference between them.

Buster
2003-12-04, 17:51
You sure like to argue.

It doesn't matter who comprises the committee that determines exactly what will be censored; what matters is the fact that there is censorship. This censorship was mandated by the government via the V-Chip legislation in 1996. An essay I wrote at the time is still on the web here:

http://www.vxm.com/21R.78.html

The fact that the policies so enforced are created by waves of anonymous public opinion is a "bad thing," in my view.

You may feel differently.

In my own opinion, anime is an art form. You think that art should be set against a series of rules abstracted from the phone calls and letters of parents, as filtered through a committee of anonymous "industry representatives?"

Good for you, enjoy your "art."

As to Popeye, if you are talking about Bluto's cigars, bzzt! Try again. Pipes were already mentioned earlier in this thread; I figured you'd be following along and understand that we are talking about cancer sticks.

In a conversation, people read and consider one another's words. You are not doing that; you are looking for places to pick things apart, which requires I explain every little detail of what I say.

Since you obviously are not stupid, I could save myself a lot of typing if you would read with thoughtful consideration instead of a feeling of challenge. I am not challenging you, but you are repeatedly challenging me, for no reason I can discern.

To Method: you may be right, I really don't know what the numbers are. However, a college age/adult anime fad that can generate interest in Gundam or Inuyasha is one thing, getting "Card Captor Sakura" into thousands of US fast food restaurants is quite another. When a cartoon penetrates the national kids' market, an entirely different world of licensing opens up. Just about every kid in every grade school knows and talks about Yu-Gi-Oh, and that translates into hard cash.

Rebochan
2003-12-05, 04:29
You sure like to argue. You sure like to make me feel as though I've broken some sacred code. Please, this is a discussion forum. There is no forum rule stating that all forum members must agree, and until there is, I do not intend to simply ignore points I disagree with when I feel I have something to contribute. Please stop hoisting this on me.

It doesn't matter who comprises the committee that determines exactly what will be censored; what matters is the fact that there is censorship. This censorship was mandated by the government via the V-Chip legislation in 1996. An essay I wrote at the time is still on the web here:

http://www.vxm.com/21R.78.html

The fact that the policies so enforced are created by waves of anonymous public opinion is a "bad thing," in my view. It bears repeating - my original post was that the FCC does not censor entertainment. It's still not censorship to rate television or to let private citizens self-regulate entertainment, even with V-chips. A V-chip is not turned on by an FCC boogey man, but by the owner of the television set. Whether the standards of private citizens have chosen lousy standards or bizarre methods of accomplishing self-regulation is irrelevant - the government has nothing to do with it.

You may feel differently.

In my own opinion, anime is an art form. You think that art should be set against a series of rules abstracted from the phone calls and letters of parents, as filtered through a committee of anonymous "industry representatives?"

Good for you, enjoy your "art."

I've never commented on the quality of industry standards until this post, nor have I EVER stated I feel art should be censored. If you wish to "argue", I'd suggest tackling the issues I've actually mentioned instead of arguing a straw man position. But at least we're finally on the same page, somewhat - that the people we should complain about are in the industry itself.

As to Popeye, if you are talking about Bluto's cigars, bzzt! Try again. Pipes were already mentioned earlier in this thread; I figured you'd be following along and understand that we are talking about cancer sticks. Apparently it was a big enough deal about the pipe to throw in a PSA during the newer Pop-Eye cartoons they put on in the 80's to explain to kids that "Pop-Eye doesn't really smoke, it's just for decoration. Aw look, Bluto's getting sick from his REAL cigars because he's a bad guy!". Yet it's clear that at least the older cartoons use REAL tobacco. I doubt Pop-Eye breathes smoke without the aid of nicotene.

In a conversation, people read and consider one another's words. You are not doing that; you are looking for places to pick things apart, which requires I explain every little detail of what I say. I haven't yet. What, did you think I sit here and plot your constant downfall through your every word? I'm not THAT psychotic. In the meantime, how many statements of mine have been twisted in this discussion?

Since you obviously are not stupid, I could save myself a lot of typing if you would read with thoughtful consideration instead of a feeling of challenge. I am not challenging you, but you are repeatedly challenging me, for no reason I can discern. I do not wish to "challenge" anyone. I haven't accused you of anything, nor personally attacked you, nor do I feel those tactics belong in reasonable debate. On the other hand, you did open this post with an attack on ME and censorship. This was originally a discussion on FCC rules and also the chance of One Piece's chances of getting a license deal. I've tried to stick to those points - they're entirely more interesting to talk about, though we seem to have strayed from it.

Buster
2003-12-05, 08:40
I did not think that was at all an "attack," it is something that I have taken as a given -- that cigarettes will not be permitted on US children's television, certainly not with a character whose always-present cigarette is part of his "suave" persona. This isn't something I just thought of when I read your post, it is something that's been frequently brought up in K-F's own forum.

Most people seem to feel, as I do, that this would be a real problem for any "children's hour" showing, one that would be near-impossible to fix by standard editing.

That is all I intended to state. My mention of the FCC was not central to the statement -- however it is something I am very likely to mention, as my own career has been affected by the very similarly "voluntary" rating system in the film industry.

You are correct that the FCC does not act as a censoring body. However in the mid-90s their role in bringing about the television rating system was central; the ratings that are given by the "industry committee" were devised by the FCC.

Whether a rating system is censorship or not is a complex issue that can't possibly be hashed out decisively here.

However, I feel strongly that such ratings are a means of censorship; putting certain ratings on films and television show essentially consign them to a category that may have no real bearing on the given program's content; it leads to programs/films being marketed in accordance with that category, often to the detriment of the work itself. The effect is to slant the marketplace against those works that have prohibitive ratings.

Essentially, a "not wholesome" tag placed on a film or television show is an economic sanction -- not because consumers can't be fair, but because of the way the entertainment industry markets things.

I co-wrote a rather silly comedy film called "Frankenhooker" (I call it silly -- and it is -- but the director and I felt it had an element of serious social satire -- critics tended to fall into a 'love it' or 'hate it' mode.)

There was not a frame in it that could not have been in any R-rated film. However, the MPAA denied it an R (this was just prior to the development of NC-17). We could not get a theatrical release without an R, and we tried to work with the MPAA in creating an R version. They made lots of suggestions, and lots of edits were made. Then they would re-screen the film, and deny us the R again.

Finally, when pressed as to what more could be changed, they advised us that they saw nothing that could be changed, the film was simply objectionable for its "general tone."

We got a midnight release -- it played for a year at the same theater in New York where "Rocky Horror" had played forever. But we kept working for that R, because two showings per theater per week is not going to make any film profitable, and at the time many of the video rental chains were refusing any film that did not have an MPAA rating.

It took six months and I don't know how many versions of the film to finally get an R. By that time the chance for a genuine release was past, as it had played most major cities as a midnight film for months, and was now perceived as an "old" movie.

Now, my role as a writer, my friend's role as director -- this made us part of the "film industry," correct? But there was nothing in the least voluntary in our participation in the ratings mess. Yeah, we could have not done it and seen the video sales go down the tubes.

If Frankenhooker had been outright banned, it might have been a cause celebre; defenders of the 1st amendment would crawl out of the woodwork. But because it was the victim of economic sanctions placed "voluntarily" on the film industry by the MPAA (the film industry lobby controlled by the major studios), it died slowly and quietly, with never a chance in the marketplace.

"Frankenhooker" was a unique case; I wrote about horror film for several years as the editor of Fangoria magazine, and while many filmmakers I've dealt with have suffered from the MPAA, there was none that I encountered that had such terrible times with that body.

However, there were few filmmakers that I dealt with who didn't have the MPAA in their heads while they worked the edit, most significantly David Cronenberg during his early career (when his films were serious, but not taken seriously) and George Romero.

That's why I see "voluntary" ratings systems as censorship -- because of their chilling effect on the artist, especially the independent artist.

(Of course, that has changed in the last ten years or so as the studios have more or less "absorbed" the independents; Disney's Miramax, Sony Classics, etcetera. Cronenberg is part of the majors now, and George Romero, when he does work, works with the major studios, though I suspect both view the ratings system in much the same light as they did 20 years ago.)

But my feelings about all of this are not an attack on you; it is quite simply my personal experience, part of my life that I can't pretend didn't occur.

You, on the other hand, just seem incensed about my feelings being different from yours, and I don't know why.

(A final note: if anyone's seen the currently-available DVD of Frankenhooker, it is neither the R version nor the uncut version. The director says he has no idea where this particular edit came from, and it is an especially poor cut, plus a really-truly bad digital transfer. The original VHS releases, both R and uncut, are much better in all respects, and are easy to find on ebay.)

bayoab
2003-12-05, 10:11
I did not think that was at all an "attack," it is something that I have taken as a given -- that cigarettes will not be permitted on US children's television, certainly not with a character whose always-present cigarette is part of his "suave" persona. This isn't something I just thought of when I read your post, it is something that's been frequently brought up in K-F's own forum.


What is considered "US children's television". Are we talking FoxBOX/kidswb where they couldnt even put a unedited version of rockman exe (aka megaman nt warrior, yes, there were minor dialogue edits)? Or are we talking Cartoon Network Prime time. The cable stations have completely different rules regarding what they can and cannot put on TV. I am decently sure it can run uncensored/nearly uncensored in adult swim and probably nearly uncensored in toonami (maybe they will do the traditional remove the smoke edit). From what i know of one piece, there is no objectionable content, just a couple of mature themes. The only problem is the current war on smoking in the general public and the last thing those special interest groups want is a character that their kids consider their hero and smokes. But they have much less of a say when it comes to cable. (Also, IIRC, the guy in blue sub 6 smokes, dont remember who, was so long ago, and that got multiple runs on toonami.)

There was not a frame in it that could not have been in any R-rated film. However, the MPAA denied it an R (this was just prior to the development of NC-17). We could not get a theatrical release without an R, and we tried to work with the MPAA in creating an R version. They made lots of suggestions, and lots of edits were made. Then they would re-screen the film, and deny us the R again.


And then there was southpark.... which violates every rule in the book of censorship and MPAA. The old movie censorship rules are no longer valid...hell, network censor ship rules are shifting too. (But the ones for saturday morning kids tv seem to be staying in place).

Buster
2003-12-05, 13:00
Generally, in this thread, where I am talking about the children's television market, I mean broadcast -- primarily Fox and WB, and of course "the Big 3," but they would rather emulate anime than license it.

These are the outlets that can make beaucoup licensing money for a property owner, and since some Japanese companies have had some taste of this market, I'm sure it seems a grail to many Japanese show-biz people. You'd have to be weird to be in the cartoon business and not want your property to become golden through success on a US broadcast network.

I'm sure One Piece's producers would like a shot at that market if they could get it, but I doubt that they can; Sanji aside, the show is much more violent than any anime that has been broadcast to kids in this country.

The most recent K-F release, #72 released today, features a giant who coughs up copious amounts of blood as he approaches death. Luffy's rubber abilities are at their most amazing when he discovers new ways to use his stretchy body to whip somebody's ass good. The regular character Chopper is introduced with a story that is emotionally wrenching for most adults, involving Chopper's unwitting involvement in the suicide of the only person who ever cared for him.

This sort of thing makes the broadcast of One Piece on the major networks unlikely, without major alterations to the existing episodes.

I am not saying that there is, or ever was, a plan to put One Piece on US TV; but the rumors prior to ANN's retraction of the story was that this was Funimation's plan.

One report claimed a Funimation "insider" was saying that they saw OP as the next Dragonball. I don't know what the truth is regarding what went down behind the closed doors of Shusei and Funimation. I don't know whether Funi had the license and dropped it, almost had it and didn't get it, or never came close.

All I know is that it now appears pretty certain that they don't have it.

method
2003-12-05, 13:22
What is considered "US children's television". Are we talking FoxBOX/kidswb where they couldnt even put a unedited version of rockman exe (aka megaman nt warrior, yes, there were minor dialogue edits)? Or are we talking Cartoon Network Prime time. The cable stations have completely different rules regarding what they can and cannot put on TV. I am decently sure it can run uncensored/nearly uncensored in adult swim and probably nearly uncensored in toonami (maybe they will do the traditional remove the smoke edit). From what i know of one piece, there is no objectionable content, just a couple of mature themes. The only problem is the current war on smoking in the general public and the last thing those special interest groups want is a character that their kids consider their hero and smokes. But they have much less of a say when it comes to cable. (Also, IIRC, the guy in blue sub 6 smokes, dont remember who, was so long ago, and that got multiple runs on toonami.)



And then there was southpark.... which violates every rule in the book of censorship and MPAA. The old movie censorship rules are no longer valid...hell, network censor ship rules are shifting too. (But the ones for saturday morning kids tv seem to be staying in place).


What rules did South Park violate?
Anyway if One Piece ends up on Foxbox/kidswb then it will be overly edited just because. When it comes to Toonami the usual edits of blood and smoking will be cut. If for some reason it would end up on Adult Swim it could run uncut, but unless the maturity level picks up it doesn't belong on that block.

Buster
2003-12-05, 19:18
When it comes to Toonami the usual edits of blood and smoking will be cut.

I have to confess, the pain that I feel watching dubbed/edited anime prevents me from watching anything that's on TV, so I am not aware of specific policies. But if it is a known Toonami policy to cut blood and smoking, it will be very difficult....Sanji, the fourth member of the crew to join (around ep 20?) is never seen without a cancer stick. The only way around this would be to digitally erase the offending item in each frame where he appears. There is no means to eliminate him without eliminating some entire episodes.

One Piece never goes on for very many episodes without one of their "epic battles" occuring, and when they do, the blood flies. It would be very hard to make these airable and coherent without some blood.

One of the most moving sequences in the entire series is when Luffy straps an injured comrade to his back, and climbs a sheer cliff with cracked and bloody fingertips, in order to bring his friend to safety. The suffering he's enduring in this sequence is pretty harrowing, yet very inspirational. This sequence probably can be cut to hell and made airable, and coherent. But it would be tragic if such were ever done.

method
2003-12-05, 19:47
I must admit that I just started watching One Piece so I can't comment on the later episodes, but that has never stopped me from giving my opinion. What they would do would change the cigarette to a straw. Depending on the scene they could edit the tone down the blood. There was a scene in Yu Yu Hakusho where Kurama where he fought a guy in a very bloody fight and they were able to make the scene understandable to what happened. Of course if 4kids picks up One Piece we're screwed.

Rebochan
2003-12-06, 17:23
Buster I don't know why you continue to get so defensive everytime I respond to one of your posts. The only thing that is getting me "incensed" is your aggressive stance that my disagreement with an opinion of yours is tantamount to being pro-censorship and anti-art. I can't possibly be upset about a difference of opinion because with every post you've responded to, you've made long, detailed arguments against me on topics I haven't even mentioned. How can we have a difference of opinion if the opinions you're countering haven't even been presented? This is known as the Fallacy of the Straw Man, where the debater argues against an easier position instead of arguing based on any real issues, much like a straw man, which is easier to knock down than a real person.

I'll say this again - not once have I commented on the validity of the standards set by the industry. I have NEVER said what my feelings are about ratings systems. Therefore, your constant statements that I support censorship through ratings are based on straw man arguments. In fact, if you'd asked me what they were, you might be surprised to find areas we agree on, in particular the ever-changing and pliable (if you're big name studio) ratings from the MPAA.

If you're going to respond to this, stick to what I've said or introduce a new point. Don't make the arguments for me - I'm perfectly capable of introducing topics of discussion on my own.

Now, to bring this back to the discussion on One Piece, in particular relating to violence...have you guys been watching Toonami lately? I don't watch it myself, but apparently they've gotten extremely lax about the violence in DB/Z, even in the daytime hours. More and more American animation during daytime is getting away with blood again. Hell, the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are finally allowed to beat up real people again instead of "robots". The relaxing of standards may leave an opening for One Piece to come over with minimal day time broadcast cuts - and of course, a completely uncut DVD release for the purists (I include myself in that category).

As for FUNi and the license rights...there's a LOT of speculation over and AnimeonDVD that FUNi may have not lost the rights or may even have them but legally can't disclose it - or are not choosing to. As improbable as this sounds, it's not unlikely - the uncut Sailor Moon DVDs were supposed to be out in 2002, but ADV announced the rights early and Toei made them hold off the release for another year over it. Also, many people have brought up the situation with ADV and their release of Noir. They initially announced they had it, then pulled it from their upcoming releases. Therefore most people assumed it was no longer licensed. It in fact WAS, but ADV was trying to cut down on the crazy fans constantly pestering them about when Noir was coming out amid accusation of ADV "sitting on the rights"(which happened while they were working on releasing Excel Saga).

What does all this mean? It means I wouldn't count FUNi out yet as far as One Piece is concerned. Licensing is a difficult, complex issue on both sides of the ocean. While this could really mean they never had the rights, they could also be pulling damage control to ensure they can hang onto their rights (or jump through the final hoops for getting them in the first place). Only time will tell what the truth behind this is. Well, that or FUNi releasing a press release tomorrow detailing the situation, but the time thing is immensely more probable.

JAppi
2003-12-06, 23:13
But if it is a known Toonami policy to cut blood and smoking, it will be very difficult....Sanji, the fourth member of the crew to join (around ep 20?) is never seen without a cancer stick. The only way around this would be to digitally erase the offending item in each frame where he appears. There is no means to eliminate him without eliminating some entire episodes.



Or alternatly you could just get DIC to dub it. They could use their magical Blood tinters to make the blood blue and it becomes "Magical fluid" that some how flows out of the body exactly like blood. Then just remove the puffs of smoke from Sanji's "cancer stick" and you can call it candy. Or! Even better! they could chop the series to hell and make 26 eps of an "american" version of One Piece. That way they could easily get rid of sanji. All they would need is a some funky digital transfers and a techno soundtrack and everyone would love it.

I'm entirely confident DIC could rip this show to shreds if they wanted to.

dythim
2003-12-07, 01:43
JAppi, you should go work for some of these companies as a consultant or something. o_O
Those ideas are golden!

Rebochan
2003-12-07, 02:35
:eek: Don't give them any ideas!

method
2003-12-07, 03:34
Forget about DIC. We need 4kids to handle One Piece. Just look at how they handle YGO and other series. They are virtually identical to their Japanese counterpart. Actually they made the series better. Toei should offer One Piece to the great diety that is known as 4kids. Bow Down.

JAppi
2003-12-07, 03:47
I'm sorry YGO and Shaman King don't have funky transitions. DIC will forever be better at bastardizing shows then 4kids could ever hope to be.

method
2003-12-07, 04:43
Well Dic wins because they used I Ran by A Flock of Seagulls as the intro song for KOTZ.

JAppi
2003-12-07, 05:51
Actually it's not done by A Flock of Seagulls. It's cover of the song done by another band. I actually like that song. My brother incidently bought the cd with the song on it about a month before kotz aired.

Buster
2003-12-07, 09:03
Rebochan, perhaps I did read into your posts more aggression than was intended.

When I began posting here, it seemed that some were unreasonably hostile to the idea of K-F subs being listed here, and I may have unconsciously, and unfairly, viewed the "anti" posts as a group rather than as individuals; excuse me if I unfairly perceived your questions as attacks.

With regard to the issue at hand, certainly things could change, broadcast standards can change, certainly radical edits can be made.

But my basic thesis, that OP presents difficulties to anyone intending a TV license, stands. That such difficulties can, theoretically, be overcome, is a matter of course -- and for months, I did believe that these difficulties had been overcome. The rumors were everywhere that OP was mentioned, so it was hard not to believe them.

This point was part of a broader question, of whether there was still an announcement about OP licensing about to be made at any moment. My feeling in that regard remains that, as the time elapsed since Funi's original announcement (or non-announcement, as there remains great doubt about what may have been said at that con) grows greater, the likelihood of an imminent announcement grows slimmer, especially since the series already is a massive undertaking, and the fact that it still continues its run.

That's just my feeling on the matter, with plenty of room for doubt about what tomorrow may bring.

Crash51702
2003-12-14, 06:22
Hmmm since One Piece was unlicensed and was back on the list on our website then i wonder why i had problem enter K-F site.... is it just me or anyone else have the same problem....

NoSanninWa
2003-12-14, 18:16
That has nothing at all to do with One Piece being licensed. Their site was functional back when we thought it was licensed and isn't likely to go down for such a reason.

Anyway, their site is up and seems fine to me.