Rozen Maiden ~Träumend~ (Season 2) [Archive] - Page 27

Cinnabon-chan

2006-12-28, 15:25

Desu couldn't fight seriously because she had to think about Kana's safety. But yes, it would have been easier for them if they were better organized... because Kana's attacks are quite powerful (she owned Sou+Sui+Hina by herself).

Wow, you beat me to my point! I thought it was a bit silly of Suiseiseki to be all like "Lol, you're not coming" and kept telling her to go home, when Kana pwn'd her ass, as well as Hina and Sousei's.

I don't really know, all of the dolls seem to be powerful in some epesodes, but weak in others.

Kana herself just whimpers in the corner in the puppet epesode, along with Hina. But in another epesode she pretty much pwn'd 3 other dolls singlehandedly. then all of a sudden Shinku and Suiseiseki are acting like she's a weakling again.

I don't really know, the 3 most powerful dolls are Shinku, Bara and Sugintou. Kanaria seems very powerful at points, and completely weak in others. Soseiseki can't particually do much in battle, except wave her shears around, and is the only doll who has to be right next to another one to do effective damage. Suiseiseki dosn't have much in raw destructive power, and Hina is probably the weakest in battle, considering all she has really done is be able to hold another doll still for a while. They should leave Hina at home to look cute.

Mind you, why do you think Hina is so signifgantly weak in battle?

Her strawberry vines do little damage and seem more like a nuisance. She also cannot form herself a weapon like hte other dolls (Kana has her violin, Shinku has her cane, the twins have their gardening weapons, Sugintou and Bara have their swords)

Deathkillz

2006-12-28, 15:42

But Barasuishou is above the ground when binded, unless the vines are binding her on the ground. Don't forget, Kana was that powerful due to Desu's Roza Mystica, without it I am sure she is very weak.
oh yea forgot about the fact that kana was using sui's rosa mystica for power...but still she is pretty strong to do that damage with just 1 rosa mystica and a half broken violin...

imo kana is rather odd...she has the power to fight but it just that her personality trait tends to lead her cowering ~ maybe she lacks confident too much? :rolleyes:

Cinnabon-chan

2006-12-28, 15:49

oh yea forgot about the fact that kana was using sui's rosa mystica for power...but still she is pretty strong to do that damage with just 1 rosa mystica and a half broken violin...

imo kana is rather odd...she has the power to fight but it just that her personality trait tends to lead her cowering ~ maybe she lacks confident too much? :rolleyes:

That coupled with teh fact that Shinku and Suiseiseki were all like "GO HOME, WEAKLING!"

Kana is one of the most powerful dolls, but maybe you;'re right, she dosn't have the confidence to use it properly. She actually can put her money were her mouth is, but freaks out because she never really has too.

Mandrake

2006-12-28, 17:18

I'de like to strangle the damn Rozen, because hes not able to create the perfect girl "Alice' he decides for his daughters to chop themselves up and combine, to make one whole. The man pisses me off.

grey_moon

2006-12-28, 17:37

I guess Kana fits the stereotype of a person who lacks confidence because of how she has to keep telling herself how she is the most clever etc.

But about Sui not really harming any of the other maidens... I think she has already shown us how much she doesn't want to hurt her sisters, by what she says. The way she fights also says that in her actions. I love the consistency in RM :)

Suiseiseki

2006-12-29, 01:31

I'de like to strangle the damn Rozen, because hes not able to create the perfect girl "Alice' he decides for his daughters to chop themselves up and combine, to make one whole. The man pisses me off.

I actually wonder if Rozen actually told the maidens that they have to fight to become Alice. What if the Bastard Bunny told the maidens that the only way to become Alice is to kill, since BB seems to be the referee afterall.

But about Sui not really harming any of the other maidens... I think she has already shown us how much she doesn't want to hurt her sisters, by what she says. The way she fights also says that in her actions. I love the consistency in RM :)

Yep, Sui doesn't fight to kill but rather to defend herself and her sisters. My little Desu is so moe!

grey_moon

2006-12-29, 03:28

I actually wonder if Rozen actually told the maidens that they have to fight to become Alice. What if the Bastard Bunny told the maidens that the only way to become Alice is to kill, since BB seems to be the referee afterall.

After the OAV I'm starting to believe that the whole Alice game situation was manipulated by the Bastard Bunny more and more. Once S3 is over I would like to see a prequel explaining BB and how and what he is. Of course I would want to see any prequels about the maidens first :heh:

Deathkillz

2006-12-29, 07:18

Yep, Sui doesn't fight to kill but rather to defend herself and her sisters. My little Desu is so moe!
but my gin sama is more moe :D

*cough* actually thats a good point...did rozen even say to the dolls to murder each other? lol this somewat makes me thin of god and the devil ~ picture rozen as god and the bastard bunny as a devil...hew working overtime to make the dolls kill each other while rozen is up above...watching but not acting (just what i image god will do as well :rolleyes:) but only intervene whem something really abnormal happens...gin moving without a rosa mystica or when bara cheated to kill off some of the dolls ~

grey_moon

2006-12-29, 17:45

but my gin sama is more moe :D
I'm sorry but the point isn't about our "forced" interpretation of anything. Doesn't matter who your or my favorite maiden is. The maiden who care's more about her sisters then anyone else from some where in the 1800's to now is Sui!

Deathkillz

2006-12-29, 18:53

^ and did i say that sui isnt caring? no...i know for a fact that she doesnt want her sisters killing each other...she would rather give up seeing rozen that for that to happen but it doesnt mean that she doesnt love her father...its just that she loves her sisters more ~ and it was just a fanboy~ish joke :p

Lost

2006-12-30, 03:52

She's torn between her love for Father and for her sisters, so thats why she's satisfied in maintaining the.. stalemate they have now. As of S2's end, the stalemate they had.

Mind you, why do you think Hina is so signifgantly weak in battle?

Her strawberry vines do little damage and seem more like a nuisance. She also cannot form herself a weapon like hte other dolls (Kana has her violin, Shinku has her cane, the twins have their gardening weapons, Sugintou and Bara have their swords)
It's a good chance that her seeming weakness is because of (1) her really soft personality, and (2) the fact that she's not the kind that normally wants to see other people hurt, or do the hurting. She does support the Shinku in her fight with her vines. But I think that Hina's character is one of those with the potential to turn around and go really really mad (like in the first volume of manga, with Tomoe), and really start kicking some ass (preferably, Kira :p). I would like very much to see that happen. Hee hee, the underdog.

Kageitenshi

2006-12-30, 19:08

Yo! ^___^

First post, couldn't resist sharing my views on Mr. Rozen and as for why Gin-sama was left unfinished and is Rozen really as big a villain.

This may be spoiler-ish, if you have yet to see both Ouvertüre eps.

1 - Having seen both eps. of Ouvertüre shedding some light on the issue I would believe that as an artist and probably quite eccentric one at that, it is quite likely that the reason for Gin-sama not being finished before the other dolls, save for Kirakishou is as simple as frustration. Many an artist who fail to achieve what they have pictured in their mind grow frustrated and move on to working on their other ideas that fill their head for only a moment and could be lost forever if left undone. In Rozen's case it is likely that he failed at creating a suitable abdomen for Suigintou, being the first doll of her kind. Seeing as there's many other failed creations in Rozen's workshop and also Enju showed Jun some of his failed creations and even he was obviously saddened by this, we can conclude that it can be heartbreaking to not be able to create the perfection that such a doll would deserve.

2 - Rozen moved onto other projects probably because, as Shinku had said Suigintou's blueprints were lost. No idea as for why, but it is possible that Rozen was unable to control himself after many a failures and ripped them to pieces. But as he obviously had a Roza Mystica readied for Gin-sama and having told the other finished dolls about having already made her (not telling names) it is likely that he takes great pride and loves all the Maidens and planned on finishing Suigintou taking time to make her perfect as she deserves.

3 - Unaware of Gin-sama having become sentient without a Roza Mystica, seeing as he's immersed in his ongoing projects I'd believe he was quite shocked to find Gin-sama has been lost.

4 - It is likely that the Roza Mysticae connect to Rozen in some telepathic manner seeing as he was unable to find Suigintou until she had been to Sou-chan's N-Field. And seeing as he is somehow situationally aware of his dolls' doings and was able to find Gin-sama again after Shinku beat her in Jun's dream world to repair her. Also, seeing as how happy Gin-sama was to receive her Roza Mystica that was hers alone to begin with, I'd think Rozen didn't consider a missing abdomen to be of any consequence seeing as his (I'd call Gin-sama a masterpiece) Maiden was quite perfect enough already, if not in body, but in mind; being able to walk on her own and all. Besides, if Rozen wasn't able to make a good enough an abdomen piece to begin with, how could he conjure one up without any measurements when he gave Gin-sama her RM at such a short notice?!? They both seemed happy enough.

5 - Unfortunately it seems as though Roza Mysticae are a double edged sword: while giving the Maidens a powerful life force and personality, with it comes also the negative traits associated with any living human-like soul. Gin-sama was childlike, innocent and all, but not very understanding without her RM, such a pretty smile she has too... But once she received her RM she became to realize that Shinku's motivations might not have been sistership, but pity...

6 - Long story short, Shinku's Ego-nation going against Gin-sama's world of inferiority complex they end up crushing each other's "I like you" - factor. Something that must have been quite horrible an event for Rozen to witness. Bastard Bunny however seemed quite amused by this....

7 - EEEEP loooong first post, don't hate me.... *cough* Back to theory. I'd believe that both Rozen and Enju are being manipulated by Laplace no ma, but Rozen seeing further into the scheme refused to fully co-operate by having his dolls destroy each other. Realizing this, BB and Enju, who's obviously easier to manipulate, set out to crush Rozen's creations to steal the show and created Barasuishou for this end. Obviously Laplace wasn't counting on Enju's creation to be able to hold all the RM within to become Alice... but as for how the heck did he manipulate Kirakishou enough to become his puppet remains to be seen. Why else would we see Kira dancing with Laplace instead of Rozen at the end of Träumend :confused: Unless Kirakishou's RM in the anime is used by Laplace in Barasuishou to strengthen it to be used in Rozen's creation.

8 - As for being able to manipulate the dolls to some degree I'd believe this double-edged sword of a Roza Mystica, somehow have their origins in Laplace. Shirosaki might be that mad scientist type of a person in the show, having found some ancient manuscripts for creating an ultimate "golem" (Alice) by uniting 7 aspects of a Roza Mysticae into one by some more or less obscure means involving dolls... or something along those lines. Having found his way into the N-Fields he sets out to create the 7 RM but not having the required skills to create dolls he manipulates Rozen and Enju to this end. Rozen making his maidens out of love, Enju out of envy. This would explain why Rozen's dolls have more of a good side, while Barasuishou is rather... soulless, probably just how Laplace would like all the dolls to be, just kill each other and be done with it. Bastard Bunny seems to enjoy the show anyhow even if his ultimate schemes may be delayed.

Think I'll end this here for now, as this is getting a bit too long :eyespin:

EnigmaticThief

2006-12-30, 19:48

Interesting theories, Kageitenshi, although I will bring up one contrary to yours.

I think that your description of Rozen as a "frustrated artist" is very apt. He wanted to create the perfect girl, "Alice," by means of a doll, but failed to be able to capture all the feminine aspects he desired in a single one, so he kept making dolls, each with different qualities (Suiseiseki's nurturing, Shinku's demeanor, Hina's cuteness, Kanaria's ingenuity and creativity, etc.) To combine these qualities in the right balance, the Alice Game was imprinted into the dolls.

However, I think that his shelfing of Suigintou goes beyond just the frustrations of a "failed project." Perhaps once he started making the other dolls, nurturing them in their beginning moments, he got the idea to keep an eye on Suigintou and see what she would do, seeing as how he had completed her dress and the lower half of her body. The events that Suigintou goes through in Ouverture were perhaps looked upon by Rozen as a test, through which he grants her a Rosa Mystica. She proved that she could live and grow on her own even without the proper parts or seeing the quite same destiny; something the other dolls are struggling to do. This is Suigintou's prominent quality that Rozen sees is needed as a part of Alice.

Kageitenshi

2006-12-30, 20:09

Did cross my mind, indeed, but I found it to be less likely an option, as Rozen had "lost" the blueprints, like Shinku said it. Possible, but less likely... Seeing as Rozen doesn't seem to wish for her dolls to suffer, telling Shinku that it is her task to find out the other way to end the game, hopefully in a way that benefits them all.

Perhaps this had been told to her to begin with, but made to be forgotten by Laplace to have the game work his way. Perhaps Rozen only exists in a "prison" N-Field because of Laplace finding him too hard to manipulate, and isn't able to directly contact his Maidens to have reminded of this earlier. As in only being able to sense the Maidens' doings but not be able to contact them until they've become somehow "broken" and unfit to participate in the game. In this state they seem to fall into another field of existence not controlled by Laplace; due Laplace's reign over the dolls' N-Fields Rozen is unable to enter them freely.

Edit: Besides, would it matter at all if that would be the case whether or not Rozen had finished Gin-sama but not given her RM and see what happens then? Why would missing a piece make such a difference in terms of traits required for becoming Alice, as it is impossible for Gin-sama to become Alice in this state to begin with. Would it also not have been fair to have monitored Gin-sama closely enough to see that she's become sentient on her own and then giving her RM even if she's physically unfinished instead of having her suffer the consequences first. Wouldn't think Rozen is such a god figure as to have foreseen the events to come as a crucial part of Gin-sama's contribution to the Alice game.
There are others who seem to think of Rozen as a villain of sorts as well:See last comment by Hecate (http://www.designchronicle.com/memento/archives/rozenmaiden_ouverture_ep1.html).

EnigmaticThief

2007-01-07, 23:29

I just recently re-watched Traumend and there are a few things that I took better notice of this time around that gave me a better insight as to the beginning of the false Alice Game, mainly in regards to Souseiseki's motivation.

One of the biggest things that spurs Souseiseki into her actions is her chance meeting with Father in the n-fields. However, there are a few thinsg that don't seem to fit. Firstly, he doesn't make any interaction with Souseiseki, which seems odd as the man poured love into each doll. Second is how Barasuishou was very conveniently there to explain the situation to Souseiseki. But, most importantly is that his sobs are audible. We, the audience, never ever hear Rozen's voice, so the logical conclusion is that Souseiseki did not, in fact, see Rozen. She saw Enju made up to look and "feel" like Rozen. This is reinforced by Barasuishou's appearance, because more often than not she simply repeats what others say, so having her remember a few lines wouldn't be too hard.

I also rationalized a bit into why Souseiseki chooses to fight Suigintou first. On a surface level, Suigintou is one of the few dolls that Souseiseki doesn't have a good relationship with, who she doesn't consider a friend as well as a sister. Also, there's the fact that she has a score to settle with Gin for manipulating Motoharu and taking Renpika. Deeper than this I think that Sou chose to fight Gin because she felt that Suigintou would be an "even" opponent. Although Sou has a Medium in Motoharu, we never see her power up via his energy (I don't think we even see a ring on his hand,) which leads me to believe that she does this on purpose. Sou doesn't know that Suigintou has a Medium, Megu, so she seeks to defeat Suigintou using skill alone, what she assumes Suigintou will be solely using, as well. There's also the fact that she knows Suigintou's tactics better than Barasuishou, who she only just met. So, we can see just how twisted Sou's manipulation was, which only makes me feel more sorry for her.

grey_moon

2007-01-08, 08:16

So, we can see just how twisted Sou's manipulation was, which only makes me feel more sorry for her.

There are those who manipulate (BB, Enju and maybe Rozen), those who are manipulated (Sou) and those who are not (Sui). It's a shame how Sou didn't get some of Sui's better traits as well, but then again she wouldn't be Sou if she didn't act the way she did...

Kageitenshi

2007-01-08, 13:46

I never did think Sou had actually met father in ep. 8. Seemed far too convenient to begin with. It may be an image of Father, but not in any way related to what Bara insists on "Father is crying, because he can't find Alice." Seeing as how Shirosaki / Laplace asks Bara on how things went after she returns to Enju's shop, it is easy to conclude that Sou was being manipulated. She may be levelheaded thanks to her love towards her sister(s), but she's also the most determined to become Alice since the beginning.

If the dolls can remember the feelings of Father when they were given life, wouldn't they also feel any negative feelings? Even Gin-sama loves Father and remembers him as something positive, even if she didn't get the affection the other dolls did. I don't think they'd be naive enough to mistakenly think that Rozen's ambition, sadness or even greed, if there were any, would be something good. That is, if Rozen actually had such ambitions for wanting his dolls to become Alice by fighting each other, or thinking they're failed creations short of becoming Alice, like Bara tells Sou. I'd think the maidens' feelings towards Father is enough of a proof for him being the good guy in the show.

Even Enju says it in the very same ep. 8 "As long as you pour love into them, they continue to live" referring to dolls as he's telling Jun about the feelings involved in making the dolls. "Even if you are separated, even if you are far away... love remains."
I said in my first post that Enju's Barasuishou might be soulless or empty, because she was created out of envy towards Rozen, as a means to show him that Enju is no longer the apprentice, but a true maestro. I still stick to this statement: even if Enju loved Barasuishou, it wasn't quite enough. It seems to me that only before she's about to crumble in the last episode does he realize his true feelings for her. Bara actually seems like a real person for the first time when she was embraced by Enju during the last moments. He even begs her to get rid of the RMs so that she could still be repaired and live as a doll. Laplace's lies and half truths don't seem to have a meaning anymore in a lose - lose situation. That, assuming he was manipulated by BB "build me a doll worthy of Alice and you shall get to show Rozen how good you truly are" or something. Envy is a good motivator.

BB's words are just too convenient again; "it seems that the light of truth is too dazzling when shone on deceit... fun and games... new toys..." Sure hope for a third season. Then again, it may be a bit hard to come up with a whole new season with enough plot twists, as we have all the cards in our hands. Knowing they can't go and simply add more dolls or a new Laplace-like villain in the show and knowing just how annoyed fans would be if they'd just make pointless action scenes or concentrate on giving more "depth" to the less important characters in the show. Can't have an anime series equivalent of Star Wars Episode 1, rather see something as fulfilling as episode 3 was, even if it's not as many episodes.

BTW, if you look closely, you can see only 6 Roza Mysticae released from Bara, what happened to the last one then? Was it just as false as Barasuishou or is the RM an essence of the creator that vanished just like Enju did? I overlooked this earlier, thinking that perhaps Bara's RM was used in Kirakishou. Now it seems that her RM is gone. Still fail to see how Rozen could have lost Kira to Laplace if she is a true Rozen Maiden.

Cinnabon-chan

2007-01-08, 14:05

When I read the manga, Hina is actually very strong, and her strawberry attacks are a lot more interesting.

I wish they hadn't made her such a weakling in the show.

EnigmaticThief

2007-01-08, 14:20

BTW, if you look closely, you can see only 6 Roza Mysticae released from Bara, what happened to the last one then? Was it just as false as Barasuishou or is the RM an essence of the creator that vanished just like Enju did?

I think that Bara never had a Rosa Mystica. We can see from Ouverture that a doll doesn't need one to be able to move and think. Otherwise she simply had a Rosa Mystica-like imitation. Notice that after Bara had defeated all the Rozen Maidens present in the N-Field where the final battle took place, she didn't undergo any sort of transformation, nor was her arm repaired; hardly what I'd call the "spotless perfection" which Alice is supposed to embody. She only ever had the six within her body, so in essence Bara never "became Alice," and broke before she and any chance at garnering Kirakishou's Rosa Mystica.

Kageitenshi

2007-01-08, 14:25

Hina is still cute! Isn't that quite enough :D

Edit:
"I think that Bara never had a Rosa Mystica" Damned good point, would explain just why she's lacking in personality and all. Just like Gin-sama was much like an innocent child, Bara would be easily turned into the puppet she was. For some reason I had this memory of seeing Bara's artificial spirit in some episode, but a quick run through the series indeed proves she has none...

AthenAltena

2007-01-08, 14:29

Yeah, it does seem like Hina gets a bit more development in the manga. She also manages to send me into kawaii-fits in the manga that she wasn't able to in the anime. The scene of Nori holding her after Jun wakes up just about make me squeal, which would have been awkward since I was reading it on a plane. XD

Kageitenshi

2007-01-08, 14:42

Shame I have yet to find translated RM manga and the fact that I'm quite broke is in itself quite enough to keep me from buying anything but food and paying for rent even if there are sources on the internet for all kinds of nice stuff, like a Gin-sama dakimakura.

Cinnabon-chan

2007-01-08, 16:09

I think that Bara never had a Rosa Mystica. We can see from Ouverture that a doll doesn't need one to be able to move and think. Otherwise she simply had a Rosa Mystica-like imitation. Notice that after Bara had defeated all the Rozen Maidens present in the N-Field where the final battle took place, she didn't undergo any sort of transformation, nor was her arm repaired; hardly what I'd call the "spotless perfection" which Alice is supposed to embody. She only ever had the six within her body, so in essence Bara never "became Alice," and broke before she and any chance at garnering Kirakishou's Rosa Mystica.

I don't think Bara had a Rosa Mystica either. I think Rozen probably realized that he would have jealous rivals like Enju, so he made the Rosa Mysticas only be absorbed by another Rozen Maiden. Bara had none, and since she absorbed six Rosa Mysticas, she was not aloowed to become alice, as she was not a valid candidate in the Alice Game, and the power of the rosa mysticas destroyed her.

_duangelique

2007-01-08, 19:25

I'm breaking up with er, news? I dunno if have been posted, but in some list according the japanese people about the 100 best anime series, Rozen Maiden hit the 9th spot:D

Now, with the current theme. I...haven't thought of Laplace as a culprit, I even hoped for he was an imparcial character, some strange kind of a being, living a particular existence, and having nothing to do with Alice Game intrigues. But, the recent comments, and the anime, are pointing him (him?) as the bad guy, so I should better yield to what the anime may bring, wait, and say that for the story, for all stories in where all the characters must stand by one side or another, the theory about Laplace works, and it could be the right one, after all is the anime we're talking about, and not what we think is right or wrong for the story.

Rozen.
It's very confuse. At least we know something about the direction that takes the rabbit because he says it, on Ouberture and last episode of Traumend, but we haven't heard not a single word coming directly out of Papa's mouth (oh, but we can rely on what Jun and Shinku did heard). I found very suspicious the fact that all the girls almost forgotten everithing about him, even his face (shiny and smooth, as a saint). I don't remember if they quoted that he told them directly certain things, the things about the Alice Game and a purpose of life. If he didn't, it shows that he has less control of what's happening than what we thought, adding more strenght to Enju and the bunny.
But, if he did told them what to do, how to -but not so possible after Ouberture-, or at least explained them that his ultimate desire is Alice (yeah, how do they know that Alice is the only one and superior goal for him? Is there any more stuff in stake??), well if he did, Francisco de Quevedo already said it 400 years ago, in one of his satire-burlesque novels:

"The alchemists, that for being selfish, also go to hell" (sic)

So I share the same opinion. As for Enju, is he dead or something? How could he make a comeback? And the thing that torture us all: Why he is-was so similar, in physic appearence, with Rozen? Another familiy problem? Nah, I don't think they're related, but that detail is worthy to receive an explanation in the series.
It wouldn't bother me if the anime and the manga will have two different finales, if they do make it for continuing...

Kageitenshi

2007-01-09, 00:55

Hummmm? Laplace no ma = Laplace's Demon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon)
Would you call a neutral character a demon? Even if the historical fictional figure was such... Would you cast hateful glances at "bastard bunny" if you didn't know of him since before what we see in either seasons or OVA RM and not considering it to be something pleasant? Would any decent person enjoy "fun and games" of dolls beating each other into Junk in some macabre game? Would any decent person manipulate others like Barasuishou does obviously as instructed by Shirosaki / Laplace? As for Enju, he's strongly connected to Shirosaki who, as a neutral character wouldn't tag along with Enju either playing with his toy puppet. This has lead to the conclusion that Enju's being manipulated or at least co-operates with Laplace knowing of the Alice Game, hence creating Barasuishou only for the one reason of her possibly becoming Alice by beating the other dolls. Why have a neutral character anyway? He's too conveniently knowing but never telling and the creepy kind of a person to begin with. Uhh, I've heard that alot actually...

But I suppose anything is possible as long as season 3 doesn't break apart the whole storyline...

the.Merines

2007-01-09, 11:04

Not to break up the discussion but... here's my Rozen Maiden predictions for 2007.

Rozen Maiden and ~traumend~ will get an R1 release VERY SOON.
Season 3 announcement in mid/late-spring for the fall.
The manga will be delayed for a couple months before Peach-Pit moves it out of Birz.

Any other predictions?

edit: If you doubt my R1 license thing, check out Geneon's 01/09/07 podcast contest.

Cinnabon-chan

2007-01-10, 15:18

Oh, this is something i made up for fun. I've decided to assign a flower and jewel to each Rozen Maiden (since some have flowers linked with them, some have jewels, but not both or all of them.) SO her e you go. there are a few im not quite sure on, so id love to hear your ideas.

Rozen maiden Jewel Flower

Sugintou Jet Deadly Nightshade
Kanaria Topaz Sunflower
Suiseiseki Jade Bean
Soseiseki Lapis Lazuli Violet
Shinku Ruby Rose
Hina Ichigo Rose quartz Srawberry
Barasuisho Amathyst Tulip
Kirakishou Quartz Snowdrop

blitz1/2

2007-01-10, 15:26

Cinnabon-chan

2007-01-10, 15:49

Do you have another jewel for Kira because Quartz fits Barasuishou (her name is Rose Quartz)

But rose quartz is pale pink (i actually toyed with giving it to kirakishou, because pale pink is a big factor in her design, but white is her colour so i gave rose quartz to hina, since i can't think of any pink gemstones.)

Ziv

2007-01-14, 08:35

7 - EEEEP loooong first post, don't hate me.... *cough* Back to theory. I'd believe that both Rozen and Enju are being manipulated by Laplace no ma, but Rozen seeing further into the scheme refused to fully co-operate by having his dolls destroy each other. Realizing this, BB and Enju, who's obviously easier to manipulate, set out to crush Rozen's creations to steal the show and created Barasuishou for this end. Obviously Laplace wasn't counting on Enju's creation to be able to hold all the RM within to become Alice... but as for how the heck did he manipulate Kirakishou enough to become his puppet remains to be seen. Why else would we see Kira dancing with Laplace instead of Rozen at the end of Träumend :confused: Unless Kirakishou's RM in the anime is used by Laplace in Barasuishou to strengthen it to be used in Rozen's creation.
My guess is that Rozen is being detained in some way by Enju and BB. In Traumend, Souseiseki sees Rozen crying and assumes he wants her to kill more. I think he was crying because he was upset by the Alice game.

Ziv

2007-01-14, 08:42

It's a good chance that her seeming weakness is because of (1) her really soft personality, and (2) the fact that she's not the kind that normally wants to see other people hurt, or do the hurting. She does support the Shinku in her fight with her vines. But I think that Hina's character is one of those with the potential to turn around and go really really mad (like in the first volume of manga, with Tomoe), and really start kicking some ass (preferably, Kira :p). I would like very much to see that happen. Hee hee, the underdog.
So she's like Bubbles in the Powerpuff Girls?

Cinnabon-chan

2007-01-14, 09:54

So she's like Bubbles in the Powerpuff Girls?

Ah, I loved the epesode when Bubbles went insane and just started kicking the living s**t out of everybody and anything. "MERCY IS FOR THE WEAK!"

After all, cute, kind Hina is the kind who eventually snaps and turn into a serial killer, going from hosue to house and strangling/crushing people wiht her vines.

they shoudl make a horror movie of it called Kleine Beere.

Ziv

2007-01-14, 11:32

Ah, I loved the epesode when Bubbles went insane and just started kicking the living s**t out of everybody and anything. "MERCY IS FOR THE WEAK!"

After all, cute, kind Hina is the kind who eventually snaps and turn into a serial killer, going from hosue to house and strangling/crushing people wiht her vines.

they shoudl make a horror movie of it called Kleine Beere.

That would be absolutely amazing. Sigh... If only Powerpuff Girls Z had made the show into what it was meant to be...Fist of the North Star with kindergartners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u83_jfqYgQ0

Kageitenshi

2007-01-15, 14:50

RM + Higurashi-NNKN? I'd sure watch that! Hina looking cute.... with uhhh - A BLOODY MEAT CLEAVER?!? Even scarier would be Hina looking cute and innocent with a dildo and a whip. Asobu yo, na-no~!

Ziv

2007-01-15, 23:20

Here's something I've been wondering: Is there anyone here who watches Rozen Maiden because they can or were at one point able relate to any of the characters or themes?

Kageitenshi

2007-01-16, 03:36

That'd be a reason why I like some of the characters more than the others, but not really a reason to watch the series.

Out of all the anime I've watched, there's only one I have watched and love because I could actually relate to the main character since the beginning and that would be Elfen Lied. Uhh, doesn't mean that I'd be a psycho killer or something, I know where to draw the line and that's to enjoy violent computer games and anime like Black Lagoon if I need to vent out some stress... Just that I can relate to the reasons behind Lucy's aggression, like I can relate to Suigintou makes them special to me. Well the depth and complexity of the characters too, just like BL's Rebecca - Two Hands.

I guess that answer's to npal where's the logic behind liking the villains just as much as I like many less violent and even comical characters. Shana's so moe too! :D

Reality and fiction are like your ears, just about the only way to bring them together is to remove everything in between ;)

The thread needs people! So! Here's the next question: What kind of a dream world would your's be and what would your life tree be like?

Mine I bet would be closest to a dream I had years ago and still remember vividly: a void with nothing but a mist hovering just below your waist, you'd feel as if someone was watching and could almost see shapes of buildings, items and humanoid figures in the mist in the corner of your eyes but when you look there's nothing, there'd be no fear, just a feeling of emptiness. Life "tree" would probably be a creeping vine reaching out and seeking for something, never knowing what, in this void.

_duangelique

2007-01-23, 20:24

Which Rozen Maiden doll are you? (http://www.quizilla.com/users/irukapuppy/quizzes/Which%20Rozen%20Maiden%20Doll%20Are%20You%3F%20Pic ture%20Results./)

blitz1/2

2007-01-23, 22:39

I just thought of something.

If Kirakishou had a VA. I nominate Yukari Tamura (with her evil voice)

EDIT: Yes! I got her!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b181/gouf123/1137469194_arasuishou.jpg

QueenNori

2007-01-24, 06:43

Yay!:)
http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469017_ectsshinku.jpg

Mincemaker

2007-01-24, 07:27

Err....Uh oh....

http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469017_ectsshinku.jpg
Shinku

*Immediately dash into the Dark Portal and shut it down before Suigintou hime-sama could land a feather on me*

SlurEXE

2007-01-24, 09:16

http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1136273172_souseiseki.jpg
Souseiseki

Hm.

Kageitenshi

2007-01-24, 09:19

Hm? I've done that quiz ages ago, got Gin this time as well.
http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469149_ssuigintou.jpg
Mincemaker: I'm quite certain my warrior Suigintou was left on that side of the Dark portal! Pray she isn't able to traverse the boundaries of servers. Then again, my 10 day free pass is about to expire in a couple days. 20 months playing the same game, the same raids and all bites and the new content isn't worth the money for me so far.

eplipswich

2007-01-24, 10:51

I just thought of something.

If Kirakishou had a VA. I nominate Yukari Tamura (with her evil voice)

EDIT: Yes! I got her!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b181/gouf123/1137469194_arasuishou.jpg

Well...just so you know this isn't Barasuishou...because Barasuishou has an rose eye patch, not a real rose, and her eye patch is on the left eye......it should be Kirakishou..well whoever the creator is, it ought to be corrected.

Deathkillz

2007-01-24, 12:43

Which Rozen Maiden doll are you? (http://www.quizilla.com/users/irukapuppy/quizzes/Which%20Rozen%20Maiden%20Doll%20Are%20You%3F%20Pic ture%20Results./)
its a trick! obviously all the question are so spacific to which RM doll it is that it isnt even funny >.< got gin sama btw...(bah naturally :p)
i would do a real one but i need to get mentally prepared if it ends up as hina or kana >.<

Kageitenshi

2007-01-24, 13:20

In other words you picked answers by your preference towards a certain character not to answer what you would actually do? Where's the fun in that? Besides, most of the quizzes are amazingly obvious, answering truthfully I either get Gin or Sou. Answering correctly I can get any result I like obviously >__<

Some other quizzes that rely on limited number of abstract situations entirely unrelated to the topic tend to end up giving answers based on the opinions and associations of the author and people just scoff their shoulders at getting the "wrong" result.

Besides, you'd have to be quite the wierd person to get Kana or Hina when answering truthfully. I got Kana only by answering correctly :D

Cinnabon-chan

2007-01-24, 16:32

I answere truthfully, but I got Hina. ^^ Yay, im the cutest Rozen Maiden fan here.

http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469126_hinaichigo.jpg
Hina Ichigo

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Deathkillz

2007-01-24, 17:34

In other words you picked answers by your preference towards a certain character not to answer what you would actually do? Where's the fun in that?
cause i wanted to see how much of a con it actually is :p
well after answering truthfully i ended up being shinku ~ gommen gin sama >.<

but bah! such lies wont sway my heart ;)

the.Merines

2007-01-24, 17:54

I also am, apparently, Shinku... but I'm not really bothered by the fact.

Kageitenshi

2007-01-24, 18:15

Can't see anything wrong with being like Shinku or Hina o.O
At least not with the way they've been described on the pictures that come with the results :p

The answers needed to get the Gin result aren't all that horribly wrong on any moral scale though. Bara (wrong pic, who cares) on the other hand does take a bit more disturbing answers to get. Got bored and went on to get all the results on first attempt by choosing correctly, took some good 15 minutes. Duh, bored again so I guess I'll have to do some other quizzes and perhaps even get some sleep >__<

Mincemaker

2007-01-24, 20:24

its a trick! obviously all the question are so spacific to which RM doll it is that it isnt even funny >.< got gin sama btw...(bah naturally :p)
i would do a real one but i need to get mentally prepared if it ends up as hina or kana >.<

I picked my answers with honesty and I ended up with Shinku.

Wait, does that mean I have almost similar personality set as Shinku? More reasons to be riddled with feathers.

_duangelique

2007-01-25, 12:11

Oh really? I got Hina, but everyone said I'd rather be Kana (that because of the curls)

klinton

2007-01-25, 12:21

http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1136273172_souseiseki.jpg

That was kinda fun.

Flo

2007-01-25, 17:47

As expected...
http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469149_ssuigintou.jpg

I thought I'd get Kira (NOT BARA YOU FOOL! AND THE QUIZ MAKER LEFT OUT PSYCHOTIC! BAH!) instead, but I think "What would you do if someone hurt you either physically or emotionally?" made all the differences.

Suiseiseki

2007-01-26, 01:58

http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469017_ectsshinku.jpg

Gets kicked by Suiseiseki. :(

devilgirl11

2007-02-01, 04:28

Omg i got bara and i got gin too xD
http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/7219/1137469194arasuishoupu6.th.jpg (http://img479.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1137469194arasuishoupu6.jpg)

devilgirl11

2007-02-01, 04:42

Well...just so you know this isn't Barasuishou...because Barasuishou has an rose eye patch, not a real rose, and her eye patch is on the left eye......it should be Kirakishou..well whoever the creator is, it ought to be corrected.

lol it is kira on that pic cause bara has different clothes xDand yet these are Kiras clothes. the person who made this quiz must be lil behind time xD:twitch:

JKL

2007-02-01, 05:35

I got Shinku. *Is happy* :D

http://images.quizilla.com/I/IR/IRU/irukapuppy/1137469017_ectsshinku.jpg
Shinku

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midnightlumina

2007-02-01, 05:58

I got: *is quite predictable.... I actually passed for Suigintou with combining some of Shinku's and Gin's characteristics

npal

2007-02-01, 07:27

LOL, I got Souseiseki. *runs off begging the other dolls to dispose of me.
Yay, I'm like my most hated doll :p I feel happy :p Maybe I should sit down and think deep about the result, or just assume that it doesn't have statistical validity since I doubt it's been through the process of creating norms. :p

Boohoo...

~uguu...

EDIT: Now that I think of it, it's pretty obvious that I share mostly Souseiseki traits :p But I don't kill people in cold blood :frustrated:
/wants to be Shinku... ~uguu...

RM-FAN

2007-02-01, 13:40

I got Hinaichigo, i cant believe it

Maxon

2007-02-01, 18:37

I got Shinku. Yay! :D

npal

2007-02-01, 18:42

I got Shinku. Yay! :D

~uguu ...

Inbou! I should have gotten Shinku... I don't like the cold-blood-killing crossdresser! ~uguu...

/hides in a corner sobbing :sad:

Maxon

2007-02-01, 18:52

Not that I like Souseiseki, but that's who I thought I'd end up with.

I guess the "non-caring" aspects of my personality contributed towards it. :heh:

Deathkillz

2007-02-01, 18:57

lol npal so you are more like sou...meaning you are my natural enemy due to what happened to gin sama T_T *grabs sword* let me end your pitiful life :p

npal

2007-02-01, 19:04

I can do seppuku, thank you :p

And btw, what the hell is up with this idiotic question
"What color you like the most, but you probably wouldn't wear?"
Damn, if I like a color the most, I actually WEAR it :p

Inbou da! The quiz is hacked!

/runs to Shinku for comfort... Oops... Shinku's watching Kun-kun
/goes to cry on Hina's shoulder... I'm like Sou... ~uguu...

Maxon

2007-02-01, 19:07

And btw, what the hell is up with this idiotic question
"What color you like the most, but you probably wouldn't wear?"
Damn, if I like a color the most, I actually WEAR it :p
I'm guessing it means a colour you like but you know it won't look good on you. In my case it was yellow. I don't look good in yellow.

npal

2007-02-01, 19:16

Well, I get Sou no matter what color I pick, UNLESS I pick black, in which case I get Shinku, keeping all other answers the same.

This leads me to believe that
1)I'm probably closer to Sou, indeed, but not too close
2)Since I like AND wear black occasionally, I can't be like Shinku... :twitch:

The logic is astounding...
But Sou's pic description is indeed right for me :p I am like that :p

Deathkillz

2007-02-02, 16:32

2)Since I like AND wear black occasionally, I can't be like Shinku... :twitch:

great be gin sama instead :p shes always black (my joint fav colour next to green :p)

npal

2007-02-02, 16:33

Yes, well, I wouldn't mind too much, having seen Gin in Ouverture, but if I DON'T select black, any other color gets me Sou :p

Lost

2007-02-07, 10:12

Crap I got Shinku. I knew I should'nt have answered truthfully. Too many people get Shinku. 36% hmm..

FallenAngel

2007-02-08, 18:56

i got Shinku.

It was pretty obvious. The part I put if u were hurt mentally or physically I put, kill them. It kinda refers to Shinku's arrogance. Actually on second thought, it could be Gin too. xD

physics223

2007-02-10, 12:41

I got Shinku. MEH.

Lost

2007-02-11, 12:51

Now, this is a question worth pondering over... Why do so many people get Shinku as their closest personality match? Any [weird] ideas?

npal

2007-02-11, 13:29

Deathkillz

2007-02-11, 14:28

in other words the questionnaire is a fail as its clearly biased towards shinku :rolleyes: it was probably made by a shinku fan :heh:

man the RM threads are soo dead nowdays O.o i swear if it was kept to just the single thread it would be on 8k posts by now :p

i wonder when S3 would come out ~ but i fear if it does come the end would be somewat disappointing if not done correctly ~ just hope for kira to come in guns blazing and finally for shinku and gin to get along ~ maybe add in a scene of rozen dying cause of his evil deeds and it will be perfect :D

npal

2007-02-11, 15:45

LOL, if it was made my a Shinku fan, other Shinku fans like me shouldn't be complaining for not being able to get Shinku :p

Deathkillz

2007-02-11, 17:25

its a trap to get non shinku fans to join their ranks >.< cause obviously a lot of people hate shinku already :rolleyes: but meh! this inbou wont get to me XD

Lost

2007-02-11, 20:29

Because either the questionnaire isn't successful or because many people are arrogant bastards and fall in Shinku's category based on only that aspect of personality :p I mean, I certainly can't think that all people are nice and noble and they get Shinku based on that aspect.

Most psychological questionnaire are pretty simple in the factors they check. You fall somewhere between pretty clear categories. Character questionnaires have the inherent problem that characters are multifaceted and it's very hard to standardize the test and pass validity measures. The definition of factors in the questionnaire is also important, and the results should take every aspect into account. For example, it's totally a different result to have, say, strong Shinku affinition and another to be between Shinku and Suiseiseki or something.
Good good I was afraid the majority of mankind were arrogant bastards. :heh: Then again, you made reference to her good and noble side; so maybe, just maybe, Shinku represents our arrogant selves on one hand and our noble "good" selves on the other. XD :heh: Okay okay, so its flawed.

O.o i swear if it was kept to just the single thread it would be on 8k posts by now :p

i wonder when S3 would come out ~ but i fear if it does come the end would be somewat disappointing if not done correctly ~ just hope for kira to come in guns blazing and finally for shinku and gin to get along ~ maybe add in a scene of rozen dying cause of his evil deeds and it will be perfect.
I agree; as it is we're in the 6000 limbo. I too would give anything to see Shinku and Gin together, well if not as best buddies (that may be asking too much) certainly as allies. Just please have a scene of them drinking tea together! As much as I'm indifferent to Souseiseki, I would love to see Suiseiseki reunited with her sister. And last but definitely not least, Hinaichigo must cry unyu~ once again; and not just in flashback. I admit that I'm expecting way too much, but that's what I want, so there. Hmm Rozen... to be honest, he needs more development before we can pass judgement. Laplace must eat dirt. Lots of it.

Kageitenshi

2007-02-15, 17:59

Woot! I'm back to annoy people with looooong posts, just because I'm bored again ^___^

Hmm Rozen... to be honest, he needs more development before we can pass judgement.Reasoning is pointless, trust me :p

These people should get spanked by their favorite Rozen Maiden for dissing their beloved father before they'd realize they've done wrong to judge him at this point... Gin fans would be lucky to go by with just a couple feathers stuck in their hides ;)

If indeed the Rozen Maidens represent certain personality aspects, then isn't it true that we all share qualities from all of them, as much as we like or dislike that fact. Better like them or you dislike a part of yourself too!

Just because they're still evolving and learning how to make the best of what they've got shouldn't be the basis for disliking any of them :(
Like saying one likes the way Gin-sama was in Ouvertüre when she was a cute little "newborn" but going as far as hating what she could become just because she's quite evil... no really, just merely ruthless while maturing into something else. Or dissing Shinku because she used to be an arrogant bitch before, at least she's trying to fix her errors. Or hating Rozen for a catch 22 of being evil for creating the dolls everyone loves that no one could love without Rozen's "evilness." I don't think anyone would suddenly hate their lover if one finds out they've used to be horrible rascals.

That's why I'd ask nicely if someone who thinks Rozen is evil to... I suppose... prove it somehow, just to get the conversation going, hopefully without another heated argument :p

All I've ever heard so far is something along the lines of "I can't be wrong with so many others feeling this way" and we all know that it doesn't matter how many or how much authority is held by those who believe if they can be proven wrong or at least shown to have no factual basis for their claims.

The definition of factors in the questionnaire is also important, and the results should take every aspect into account. For example, it's totally a different result to have, say, strong Shinku affinition and another to be between Shinku and Suiseiseki or something.The standardized personality tests for one 'never' add up to 100% on one result only, but it takes a whole another set of questionnaires to find out which of the strongest affinities that share similarities is the "proper" diagnosis. Anyhow, quizes that are based on and limited to personal preferences and opinions hold no real value what so ever until you've gone through all the possible choices one could make and even so there's bound to be inconsistencies and conflicts with mutually exclusive qualities. So many of the questions depend on the situation one could imagine oneself into as well if there's no imaginary situation given as reference.

Besides, all of mankind is arrogant bastards, it only depends on who you ask.

aldw

2007-02-15, 19:27

I've been wondering what Suigintou's view of Jun is, considering his potential to be the next Rozen in a manner of sorts...

Jamezterr

2007-02-16, 03:09

I had that song Megu was singing in episode 6 today stuck in my head.. Like all day long.. Lol.. >.<.. :heh:

grey_moon

2007-02-16, 08:10

I got Shinku, I wanted to be Hina!!!! *runs off crying*

Lost

2007-02-16, 12:04

^ Awwww. /me patpats grey_moon.

Woot! I'm back to annoy people with looooong posts, just because I'm bored again ^___^
If it is going to get this thread out of

>>6000 limbo

then I can't say I have any complaints. :)

About the rest of your text, Kageitenshi, oh I see; that issue must have formed the basis of the (heated?) discussion I missed (I'm not gonna read back on it coz I can't spare the time) when I was away. Not much I can add to your post, but I want to explain myself and say why I said
>>Hmm Rozen... to be honest, he needs more development before we can pass judgement.

While I am currently of the thought that what Rozen did - making the dolls love each other, yet equipping them with weapons and making them fight each other - was bad, because I deem it as selfish and unloving on Rozen's part, I realise myself that those conclusions are based merely on what I currently think I know about Rozen (i.e. what the show has revealed). In other words, I realise that I cannot absolutely come to the forementioned conclusions - why? Simply because I do not have the full story on Rozen - particularly with regards to his motivations and intentions (apart from the obvious that is - btw, the "obvious" that we have is only based on sayings from Shinku or any one of the other dolls). Until I hear something solid from his mouth, or see it revealed in some solid evidence that allows insight into his real and true motives, I will not be able to conclusively judge him, and say for sure that "I hate/dislike him because he is evil."

---
Also, another point about what you said about disliking the dolls:

Just because they're still evolving and learning how to make the best of what they've got shouldn't be the basis for disliking any of them
Like saying one likes the way Gin-sama was in Ouvertüre when she was a cute little "newborn" but going as far as hating what she could become just because she's quite evil... no really, just merely ruthless while maturing into something else. Or dissing Shinku because she used to be an arrogant bitch before, at least she's trying to fix her errors.

You must realise that such dislike is never absolute. For example, where I say I dislike Gin, it is for her viciousness and cruelty. However, I can still find aspects of her personality that I admire and like (tho of course a little grudgingly). Thus that is not to say that I dislike Gin; but that I dislike this and this aspect of her; as you can see, both are very different. Same goes for Kanaria: where I dislike her immature and bumbling attitude and sqeaky voice and lousy dress; I will not hesitate to admire an aspect of her that like, when and if it is revealed.

I don't think anyone would suddenly hate their lover if one finds out they've used to be horrible rascals.
Using your illustration; I could certainly hate the fact that they were horrible rascals, I could hate the their past misdeeds, and if those deeds are still manifested now, I could certainly hate them now. Still, it does not mean that I would absolutely and completely hate my lover.

If indeed the Rozen Maidens represent certain personality aspects, then isn't it true that we all share qualities from all of them, as much as we like or dislike that fact. Better like them or you dislike a part of yourself too!
Btw, what is wrong with one disliking a part of one's self? Rather, it would be unnatural if one did not dislike a part of him/herself! (If I didnt like the viciousness and cruelty in myself (that must be in me, since they are in Gin, going by your statement above) then there is something very very wrong with me.)

Btw2, you based that, and all the rest that followed in your post, on an "if." XD :heh:

Kageitenshi

2007-02-16, 16:24

I must have inherited talking too much gene from my mother, she can just go on and on and on and..... you get the point... got to love having loudspeaker function on my cell phone :D

Indeed, I have my own answers on liking or disliking something, absolute or relative, even if it's part of myself and depending entirely on the extent to which a certain aspect expresses itself. What matters is the outcome of it all, and if the outcome is such that certain people scream in most of their comments on how they hate this or that character as if everyone should do so, then what?...... I only ask why, oh why?!?

Can't really relate to feelings behind it all, but I can say for myself that I do my best to turn whatever dislikes I have into something likeable just as long as whoever is on the receiving end gives me a good reason to do so :p
My mind tells me that it's totally and utterly pointless to have strong negative feelings towards any one person - to quote myself "I don't hate people, just some of the things they do" rest of the time I just ignore it all since it's none of my business anyhow... not that I could possibly intervene even if I wanted to... not to mention that in this case it's fiction and very entertaining while at it.

Just my guideline: Ignore me and I ignore you, respect me and I respect you, hate me and I laugh at you for it, what you do and think of others is between you and them - none of my business - save for extreme cases ofcourse.

Talking about and observing these things could possibly cause no harm what so ever so I actually like doing so for a chance of pace every now and then, it's a form of self induldgence, like everything in life with the only end purpose of breeding.

What if it turns out that Rozen's intentions are good with a bad outcome? People are judging him entirely based on unfortunate outcomes that are related to him just because he was the creator of those who caused the eventual outcome? Like I said a catch 22! Think of that when we see how what happened between Gin and Shinku for example is entirely unrelated to him besides the Father part, as well as how Gin ended up defeating Souseiseki was only because of the aggravation and declaration of WAR caused by Enju, Laplace and Bara. What if Suigintou ends up saving lives instead of taking them despite her ruthlessness and whatever qualities people dislike about her? The blame is put on the creator, why I do not understand while I might know why. I sure wish to understand, merely to grow a better person myself... feelings perhaps, they defy logic?

I could hate my parents for giving me life so that I would be bound to make mistakes that I end up regretting, I could easily blame them for all that! But it's so easy to always blame others isn't it? No? People blame Rozen, he's an easy target isn't he, just because he hasn't appeared to speak for his "actions" that remain to be unspecified by those who dislike him?

All I ask is, what are these actions that people speak of anyhow? Not doing anything about the Alice Game? Perhaps he couldn't intervene? Giving the dolls "weapons"? They can be used for defence without causing permanent harm - and like we've seen, they have the power to help others in the dreamworlds, they're TOOLS for crying out loud! Telling them to beat each other up? Even if he did, he gave them the freedom of choice and the intelligence to realize what they're doing is wrong as well. The dolls hurt each other, not Rozen. I hurt myself, not my parents now that I live apart from them and can decide for myself.

Indeed, when it comes to giving "weapons" to the dolls, weapons are but tools and it's entirely up to the person using it to decide how to use it. this has been "pointed out" on the Ouvertüre thread. It's better to be armed when a situation arises when you need to use force than not to be able to do anything at all don't you think? What they think of these tools just depends on who you ask what they think of, for example an assault rifle or a hunting rifle, or whether think both are as bad, or the difference between a combat knife and a utility knife... Difference? NAMES and mental associations.

Using your illustrationUsing your answer, you're free to feel that way and it's ok and understandable. But the answer is the question in itself: why the contradiction of liking some things but not the others and where to draw the line? When under ANY circumstances the very same person is both hated and loved all the same? It's everything or nothing, learn to live with it... or why not just drop dead to save everyone the trouble.

When feelings go as far as harming someone, then isn't even love and caring bad things? Thing is, I don't care if people like or dislike BUT I sure as hell care when the boards are filled with messages that serve only the purpose of making it clear that this one person dislikes someone, no matter how much they try to say that they like certain aspects of the very same person they claim they hate as a person. Contradicting isn't it? And I hate contradictions... Who cares anyhow? Why do I care...? Do I care? totally irrelevant, I just indulge myself on observing how people contradict themselves without blinking an eye.

You must realise that such dislike is never absolute.WOOOT! Here's the funny thing once again: whatever, when - and where-ever I write, there's always answers handed out to me by those who seem to think answering to answers with questions or giving only questions instead of answers means that I don't have enough answers myself! Damned I hate that as well... not to blame Lost for anything since you answered my questions...... or at least shed some light to them on you part only. Anyone else care to share their opinions please... pretty please? With syrup on top? :D

No one can answer what isn't asked for... no one, that's how the oracles work! In a way I like to relay my messages in a way that provokes others to find or give their answer in such a manner, it just never seazes to amaze me how people relay their opinions in such... direct and "up yours" personal way. Read my last posts on the Ouvertüre thread and see what happens when one goes overboard with lack of subtlety! >____<

42 - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"The wooden wall will save you and your children" (http://www.alexisleon.com/bk008.html)

One can easily make enemies out of potential allies with prejudice and negative feliings. Once both sides realize there's no unreversable harm done to anyone even if you dislike something done or said. Absolute or relative likes or dislikes, good or bad intentions, what matters is the outcome; like it scares me when there's people going as far as saying "Damn I would love to strangle that Rozen bastard" or something along those lines.

Anyhow, final thoughts, since once again I only speak my mind, not spit out my opinions and the answers I have:

I hate hating and I hate a lot of others things, only because that's the only emotion I can actually feel because of how strong it is: it's the only thing that has kept me from becoming a sane person able to live with all the glaring controversies and contradictions in life, it's the only thing I've grown to take as granted besides the inevitable, the only thing that actually truly excites me when observing such behaviour in other people... the one and only thing. I've been hated enough for being just myself for the rest of my life during my time in life so far. But when insanity becomes the norm, what will sanity mean to us? Ignorance is a bliss, the very emotions that defines and keeps us alive as humans is our inevitable doom.

I love Suigintou for I hate her for being the manifestation of the very being that defines myself as a person... hurt, no real purpose in life, hate as the driving force seeking for a reason, even if I know what I want and have to do. Nothing ever changes, things just return to what they used to be.

I - hate myself only for hating myself

Lost

2007-02-17, 06:48

Erm, I couldn't really understand most of your post; especially the cryptic "I hate hating and I hate alot" (which sounds to me like a compounded contradiction) but meh, if that's how you feel, I'm fine with that. Now to comment on the parts I could understand (and some I don't).

(1)What if it turns out that Rozen's intentions are good with a bad outcome? People are judging him entirely based on unfortunate outcomes that are related to him just because he was the creator of those who caused the eventual outcome? Like I said a catch 22! Think of that when we see how what happened between Gin and Shinku for example is entirely unrelated to him besides the Father part, as well as how Gin ended up defeating Souseiseki was only because of the aggravation and declaration of WAR caused by Enju, Laplace and Bara. What if Suigintou ends up saving lives instead of taking them despite her ruthlessness and whatever qualities people dislike about her? The blame is put on the creator, why I do not understand while I might know why. I sure wish to understand, merely to grow a better person myself... feelings perhaps, they defy logic?

(2)I could hate my parents for giving me life so that I would be bound to make mistakes that I end up regretting, I could easily blame them for all that! But it's so easy to always blame others isn't it? No? People blame Rozen, he's an easy target isn't he, just because he hasn't appeared to speak for his "actions" that remain to be unspecified by those who dislike him?

(3)All I ask is, what are these actions that people speak of anyhow? Not doing anything about the Alice Game? Perhaps he couldn't intervene? Giving the dolls "weapons"? They can be used for defence without causing permanent harm - and like we've seen, they have the power to help others in the dreamworlds, they're TOOLS for crying out loud! Telling them to beat each other up? Even if he did, he gave them the freedom of choice and the intelligence to realize what they're doing is wrong as well. The dolls hurt each other, not Rozen. I hurt myself, not my parents now that I live apart from them and can decide for myself.

(4)Indeed, when it comes to giving "weapons" to the dolls, weapons are but tools and it's entirely up to the person using it to decide how to use it. this has been "pointed out" on the Ouvertüre thread. It's better to be armed when a situation arises when you need to use force than not to be able to do anything at all don't you think? What they think of these tools just depends on who you ask what they think of, for example an assault rifle or a hunting rifle, or whether think both are as bad, or the difference between a combat knife and a utility knife... Difference? NAMES and mental associations.

On your first (1)and second (2) paragraph: that is good, and in line with my reasoning on why I cannot absolutely blame Rozen at the moment; especially the part where you state that he hasn't directly spoken for his actions. Just something I do not agree with:
I could hate my parents for giving me life so that I would be bound to make mistakes that I end up regretting
Note that Rozen did not just give them life. He gave them the means (those "tools") and the motive (love for him) for them to "make mistakes." So, you might be justified in hating your parents if they gave you life and then ensured, with full intention, that you would make the mistakes you regret. But that's an "If" on my part isn't it - Rozen may not have intended for them to fight; nevertheless the tools and the love for him are still from him; they were bestowed upon the Dolls by him. Even if it was not his intention for them to fight (see my last paragraph below), some people may be justified in blaming for first putting those in place for them to be so easily manipulated. But. If it really was his intention for them to fight, then he is damned, as far as blame is concerned. :)

Paragraph 3: Good and valid possibilities. However, another thing here that I disagree with... while they do technically have freedom of choice (see Sui) that does not make everything free and easy "they all live happily evar after," because that freedom (of making the choice not to fight) will not be respected by the rest of the Dolls (see Sui).

Paragraph 4: Indeed, a kitchen knife just be used just as efficiently to take a person's life as a combat knife (as with a hunting rifle). :)

>>You must realise that such dislike is never absolute.
WOOOT! Here's the funny thing once again: whatever, when - and where-ever I write, there's always answers handed out to me by those who seem to think answering to answers with questions or giving only questions instead of answers means that I don't have enough answers myself!
Erm, are you accusing me of answering with questions? Enlighten me, I fail to see how that statement I made (and the following paragraph in my OP) is a question. :rolleyes:

100100

Going off on a tangent here; but Kage's words on their "weapons" being tools makes me think of something.

WHAT IF the Alice Game was actually manipulation and a devious deviation of Rozen's original purpose (which is something more peaceful) by LAPLACE? As early as Ouverture we see Laplace consorting with Enju, who has clearly shown himself to be Rozen's enemy. We also see how easy it is for Souseiseki to be taken in by a false "Father" in Traumend; might not Shinku have been the same? Further, with Sou, that happened in an N-field - doesnt Shinku say something similar, that "Rozen" transcends time "in the N-field"? Afterall, even in Traumend, Shinku realises the futility and cruelty of fighting -- if the creation is as loyal to the one that created it as we think it is ("in his image he created them" LOL), does that mean that fighting was not the Creator's original purpose? Maybe Laplace/Enju held Rozen hostage or somehow imprisoned him. This could all just be a farce of Laplace, like his namesake, the (in this case scheming) demon who knows all outcomes.

Kageitenshi

2007-02-17, 09:01

>>You must realise that such dislike is never absolute
Uhm, I'm not accusing you of answering questions with questions, I just merely pointed that I don't like the way you said it so that I should realize something that I already take for granted but don't say it to others in such manner... I'm the one who answers questions with more questions :p

Paragraph 4: Indeed, a kitchen knife just be used just as efficiently to take a person's life as a combat knife (as with a hunting rifle).Or they can both be used as effectively as novelty items and sporting gear, or a knife can be used as a harmless prop in say... role playing? The item doesn't define the use of it, the user does, no matter how much an item has been designed solely for one purpose.

That last what if has been thrown around already :p
And I... think I was the first to post the what if Rozen has been "imprisoned" somehow by Enju and Laplace. I think it's on the Ouvertüre thread somewhere, or perhaps earlier on this thread.

"I hate hating" isn't a contradiction, it's a self perpetuating circle, another catch 22 - can't hate something without being able hate which in itself is something that can and even should be hated for being the cause for alot of bad things in life.

My parents didn't only give me life, they also were the ones to give me a whole alot of ideas on how I should live. My loving and thinking of them as the equivalent of gods didn't come out of them, they came out of me by nature, besides no one knows for sure why the Maidens love Rozen so much, it's no doubt no different from our love towards our parents.

Besides, there still hasn't been a valid answer for WHY should anyone hate Rozen if the ones who are supposedly on the receiving end of his "evilness" still love him. *Invites others to take part in the conversation*

What of understanding? Meh... one may have alot of answers but understanding them is a whole another thing, that's the truth behind all the answers everywhere - the point really! I know what people make out of the answers given about what has happened so far in the anime, but I don't understand the reasoning behind half of them. Answer to the question "do you dislike (insert name here)?" may be yes or no, but that doesn't by far justify or explain anything. Getting the answer for "why do you dislike?" has turned out to be amazingly hard when there's only answers for "what do you dislike?" Especially important when we consider the consequences of not having the why part answered properly. I know why I don't hate or even dislike Rozen, or any of the Maidens, does any of you know why you do?

And please, if you wish to shorten the name Kageitenshi, please use Kage = Shadow ^__^

Blablabla

2007-02-19, 16:47

Still I patiently await the day wherby Gin-sama and Shinku could finally live happily as sisters, renounce and give-up the absurdity that is the Alice Game just like Desu, ages ago...God I love Desu...
NO NO NO NO NO !! Hell NO !! Please no...
I really hate such "Walt Disney bulshit ending" like we saw on My HiME "I killed your friend, your mom', it's not my fault, the vilain is now defeated, let's become friends again".
Shinku forgave Gin for what she did to her (RM 6 when she appologized for the "Junk") and in the other hand Gin chose to protect Shinku, she chose her to watch over Megu, once again, the first time since Ouverture, she put her faith in Shinku's hand.
The 2 sisters are now reconciled... but chose differents ways. Shinku with the other sisters and Gin at Megu's side. What are you excpeting more from them ? Why ?

npal

2007-02-19, 16:50

^ A hot GinxShinku yuri, what else? :p

Blablabla

2007-02-19, 16:54

^ A hot GinxShinku yuri, what else? :p
....

Rozen Maiden managed to not fall on such ridiculous "marketting yuri" trap that we are seeing more and more... I hope that this will go on.

npal

2007-02-19, 16:56

Bleh, I can still dream :p

Yuri RM doujins FTW :heh:

Deathkillz

2007-02-19, 17:14

well shinku x gin sama isnt all that good of a pair imo...i go with megu x gin sama for some torture action :naughty:

Blablabla

2007-02-19, 17:16

You guys are insane... i'll burn a candle for your soul next time I'll go to church.

Kageitenshi

2007-02-19, 19:16

Think of what the candle will feel like to be burnt for their sake! Besides, fantasies aren't a sin, nor do they make anyone insane... quite the contrary :p
I cheer for Gin x Megu, totally! Hope they get some good action going while she's still alive :heh:

Lost

2007-02-20, 00:21

You guys are insane... i'll burn a candle for your soul next time I'll go to church.
ROFL. Relax. While my ideal eventual relationship between Gin and Shinku would be something like you see in this picture here (http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5664/f1c10b26fa1eab92adbaee1ts8.jpg); I know its a far cry but I would honestly cry (i.e. shed tears) in happiness if I could see that realised. Realistically: At least, I want them to be allies and fight together, for each other; maybe, just maybe, even though there may be grudges on either side at first, a love and friendship can come out of that.

As you pointed out, Shinku has made the first step by apologising to Gin. Sadly Gin has yet to accept Shinku. I still refuse to believe that her act of "protecting" - shielding is a better term - Shinku was selfless. As I see it, it was anything but. And at the end of Traumend Shinku did not take care of Megu, no matter what anyone says about Gin doing it so Shinku would protect Megu in her stead...

SlurEXE

2007-02-21, 08:04

I don't really like Shinku, but I would agree that it would be nice to see Shinku and Suigintou at least on friendly terms.

Does anyone play MapleSEA? There are some Rozen Maiden-taken characters. I'm Kirakishou myself. :)

Kittie Rose

2007-02-24, 23:07

I was really annoyed that this series just seemed to forget about the relationship Jun and Shinku had built up towards the end of the series.

I thought it was really sweet. It was actually somewhat unexpected, since these kind of anime usually "Joke" about such an odd relationship but rarely let it come to pass without some kind of plot device(only example I can think of is Dragon Half and dragon shape shifting). It's the kind of thing put into "slashfics" but that never gets realised in a real anime(and thus never written very well).

It would have opened a Pandora's box of interesting issues that would have resonated strongly with real life relationships with "vertically challenged" people and otherwise physically unusual people.

It's just so... strange, but that's the attraction in it. The idea of love breaking down boundaries even between a living doll and a human is quite beautiful...

I have no idea how the Manga approaches this, I presume it's much the same...

Lost

2007-02-25, 07:54

Eh? How did the series forget about the relationship between Jun and Shinku?

I assume you've already watched the last episode of Traumend. You can't tell me the scene with Jun propping lifeless Shinku up and the scenes leading up to it and from it were not at all about the relationship between them. Sure, it may have not been lovey-dovey like that of Season 1 ep 12, but it still developed their relationship, just approaching it from a different aspect. Same goes for all of Traumend - while they did focus more on plot - as in the Alice Game - and gave different dolls more airtime, I hardly think that Shinku & Jun development was forgotten - if you say less highlighted, I'd agree, but not forgotten.

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 09:15

Speaking of breaking boundaries, I'm not sure if you mean actual physical loving, but what might these "boundaries" be?

Seeing how even Jun's "akuma ningyou" - "devil doll" comments have gotten a light-hearted tone to them, becoming more of an inside joke between two close friends towards the end of Träumend than something meant to irritate - the closeness of Jun and Shinku is more of those of a close friend loved as such, but not as lovers.

Since quite obvious that all the dolls' hearts belong to one and one only - Rozen, then closer inspection on the quality of the relationship between the two is rather unnecessary but indeed does bring a certain unreplaceable feeling of closeness between them that has its charm, but is far from being an issue requiring more attention to it. Especially when most of the issues people seem to be asking to be answered for in third season aren't related to this relationship.

All that aside, considering how every one of us is different, the only boundaries between any two people able to communicate, no matter what they may be like, are only imaginary of quality caused by prejudice, ignorance or inconsiderations. Don't see what more could be done to show that being a doll isn't anything to stop people from considering them to be or at least treating them like real people. Unless ofcourse you mean actual love relationship, which ain't going to happen in other than doujin ;)

Kittie Rose

2007-02-25, 10:15

the closeness of Jun and Shinku is more of those of a close friend loved as such, but not as lovers./quote]

[quote]Unless ofcourse you mean actual love relationship, which ain't going to happen in other than doujin

But it was happening towards the end of the first series, quite blatantly so. Maybe not as much on JUn's side, but when he was embarassed to kiss her, she was disappointed. And Shinku talking about how he made her really happy... that wasn't in a very "We're friends" kind of way. And the way Shinku looked at Jun when he was fixing her dress, those eyes... such a change from the "cutely stern" eyes she normally has.

Don't see what more could be done to show that being a doll isn't anything to stop people from considering them to be or at least treating them like real people.

It's what I like to call the Quasimodo factor, something I suffer form in real life.

At the end of the supposedly more cheery Disney version of the hunchback of Notre Damme, everyone "accepted" Quasimodo as a real human being. Yet, he was still turned down by Esmerelda, and just had to accept his place.

This kind of thing happens in real life all the time. Despite people claiming to accept someone, it still becomes bizarrely difficult for them to find anyone to be close to, while others have been hanging off them.

I really wanted to see Rozen Maiden break this, in a way both Jun and Shinku had their own stigmas against them.

It would also have been quite funny and interesting to see him explain away his midget girlfriend...

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 11:02

But it was happening towards the end of the first series, quite blatantly soI found that to be something meant to be amusing to lighten up the already darkened 1st season. More so than a sign of closeness, I honestly classified that as the "oh so natural" tendency of any young boy to test their limits and satisfy their curiosity out of impulse the "I show mine, you show yours" kind of a way. Jun isn't really honestly mature enough to even consider any closeness in a love relationship the way the events unfolded, being a hikikomori and all.
What of Shinku, I've had a similar event happen with a used to be close friend of mine saying I made her happy making her laugh etc. and that she loves me as a friend. But she was quite reserved already, so friends can do that too :p The underlined text is to directly quote her.

I'm aware of the Quasimodo factor, but unfortunately it's caused by the way humans are naturally biased towards anything unnatural. Something that anything fictional couldn't ever help with when it would come to the real events, which unfortunately, as of yet, is an impossibility. There's always the wall of ice between people that needs to be broken down by the two of them, something that fiction can only help with by adding a little heat to any one side of the wall but never to break the boundary altogether.

Perhaps when human cybernetics have reached a level where any mentally human entity of a cyborg can be called a puppet for having a non-human, non-organic body could we ever find a true situation close to resembling loving a doll in Rozen Maiden. Just thinking of GitS and GUNNM... But by the time that's happening, such minor physical issues hindering human relationships would have likely been overcome by the less prejudiced intersocial net-dependent, privacy-disillusioned generation!

I really wanted to see Rozen Maiden break this, in a way both Jun and Shinku had their own stigmas against them.

It would also have been quite funny and interesting to see him explain away his midget girlfriend...We might yet see this come true, perhaps not in a love affair between the two, walking hand in hand window shopping at a local shopping district, but something of a revealing the truth to the public kind of a way (likely unintentionally though). I do agree with that quoted statement actually... in the hoping to see this happen part. Shinku x Jun + Gin x Megu ftw :p

Funny should you say "had their stigmas against them" since it already states that what ever stigmas there might have been are no longer there, at least when it comes to those who frequent these RM threads ;)
The only stigmas left are only human of quality, like the evilness of Rozen or Gin or the way people perceive the Shinku - Gin relationship and the events regarding it.

Edit: Just as I was writing the part about cyborg love I had the Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. ED song Living Inside the Shell playing and I only realized it after I posted :D I often play the Be Human song - "If I was more human" The first time I heard that song playing on the series after Batou tried to punch Major but only ended up being ghost hacked by her punching himself instead... I was flabbergasted laughing my head off and thinking "oh how broken I indeed am wondering about the what if I were more human"

Kittie Rose

2007-02-25, 12:55

I'm aware of the Quasimodo factor, but unfortunately it's caused by the way humans are naturally biased towards anything unnatural.

Unnatural is a very weighted term. I don't think dolls are unnatural as they're a natural result of our evolutionary "superiority" over other species; the ability to dream; to create. Unnatural means against, not belonging in nature... which is a horrid thing to think of indeed.

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 13:19

I used the term unnatural for a reason, since people tend to react to very natural phenomenon with a heightened response of bias :twitch: It's not the what about but the why. Whether the reason be seemingly physical or psychological.

Wictionary about "unnatural": Something that is not natural (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/natural), whether it is supernatural (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supernatural), or artificial (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/artificial).

Most things "supernatural" tend to be classified as such because they're not understood causing bias... hence the usage of the word unnatural in this context. Not as in something that doesn't belong in nature :)

Deathkillz

2007-02-25, 14:43

oh i can feel something between Jun and Shinku but tbh it isnt going to happen...humans cant be together with dolls on that level of love...thats unless the doll turns into a realy human...lol sounds like a disney fairy tale to me :p

but yea definatly jun loves shinku and its the same about her...more of a friendship love but not as close as a lover's love...the need each other but in a different way to being lovers :)

npal

2007-02-25, 14:44

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 15:34

Rozen, you pervert devil, you :naughty:Uhm... Here catch! Right back at ya you perv!

No really, I'm quite perverted enough to have thought of that possibility myself a loooong time ago :D
Certainly the "mediums" must have more of a role in the process of creating Alice than just being there to support and act as an energy source! :innocent:

Kittie Rose

2007-02-25, 16:15

oh i can feel something between Jun and Shinku but tbh it isnt going to happen...humans cant be together with dolls on that level of love...

Why not? People have all kinds of weird relationships that rule out flat out sexual intercourse as a possibility... so why not a doll shaped-human(let's face it, it's essentially what they are) and a human?

The reason I found it so sweet was because it was breaking all the rules.

Ah well :( There's always the third series...

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 16:23

humans cant be together with dolls on that level of love...Forgetting about the fiction part for a while... I fail to see why such a thing could be down right ruled out as impossibility indeed? Love is blind - they say :D

Quantity doesn't go over quality of love, neither is it quantifiable to begin with. So basically if the feelings are there it only takes one word to justify, explain and make it all reality, just as long as the feelings are mutual ofcourse.

Deathkillz

2007-02-25, 16:42

sure love is blind but really i dont see them going that far...its a technical issue here as to why...but if we were to throw that out of the window then sure go for it ~ even if they were to realize their own feelings it will be hard to tell it each other ~ firstly shinku will be thinking that she isnt a human and thus wouldnt be able to have a normal relationship even if she does realize her feelings (along of the line of its just not right and im devoted to becomming alice to please father and also that its impossible that jun will love me back bla bla)

jun would also feel the same...falling in love with a doll? thats crazy...sure he will blush and at shinku in a different manner but ill doubt he would say anything in fear of getting a beating out of his life :heh:

bring on season 3! we need a clearing for these questions :p

and yea rozen...the perverted jiji...i bet his starting aim was to create the "perfect woman" (alice) :eyebrow: ofcourse all that he needed was gin sama but hes as blind as a bat...

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 16:54

Surely Rozen would have to thrive for creating Alice since dutch wives hadn't been invented back then! Right! Earth to all perverts... Earth to all perverts... Do you read me?

Oh but I most certainly agree with the lack of maturity and psychological reasons for no close love relationship to ever occur between Jun and Shinku in anything other than doujin, but the quoted line just made it seem like it was impossible altogether... nevermind :p

Edit: 40 more posts for #6666 and only 3374 to 10k :D

Kittie Rose

2007-02-25, 22:15

Oh but I most certainly agree with the lack of maturity and psychological reasons for no close love relationship to ever occur between Jun and Shinku in anything other than doujin,

I don't think so at all. That's not really how love works. People go around claiming that, sure, that you find the one you truly love when you reach emotional maturity, as that's the only time you're able to handle a relationship, etc., but I honestly think that's nonsense as the circumstances for relationships and what makes them succeed or fail are far too diverse.

I think by the end of Season 2, both Jun and Shinku are very mature. Jun isn't even a hikikomori anymore as such by the end of Season 1.

I honestly see no good reason why what was happening at the end of Season 1 couldn't have continued. I still stand by it being really sweet, and the "psychological reasons" only make it more so.

Kageitenshi

2007-02-25, 23:01

Semantics huh? Define "how love works"? Since people in general are very talented by nature at suppressing their feelings due doubt, fears, suspicions and what not, I merely drew the conclusion which I stated earlier. As I still see it: Jun isn't quite mature enough - at least yet. Shinku most certainly would disregard ideas of any closer relationship as unfit for a lady of her stature, especially as she's motivated by the possibility of being able to see Father again. Not saying in any way that it couldn't be possible... which is what I wondered about a couple posts earlier.

Unfortunately all we can do is wait till the third season to come, since quite obviously neither of us can go and pay Jun a visit and ask him about what he thinks of the prospects of a serious relationship with Shinku, or at the very least see how he reacts to it. Wouldn't ask her since I'd rather not get slapped :heh:

- Falling in love may feel like a meeting of hearts and minds. But really it's a kind of temporary insanity driven by hormones, scientists say.
- Love hurts, literally.
- What becomes of the broken hearted
etcetera...Truly falling in love can overcome pretty much any obstacle between any two people if mutual, but honestly, seeing how high divorce rates are even between seemingly normal couples...

I do know what it's like to fall in love and just how insane it makes you feel at worst. Never gotten so far as being in love as of yet. Why? As soon as the state of insanity had passed, all the things that would negate any possibility of a long term relationship (that were oh so blatantly obvious to begin with) suddenly started making sense again, effectively bringing me back to Earth from geostationary orbit.

Kittie Rose

2007-02-26, 00:04

But Shinku was disappointed that Jun didn't kiss him... it is Shinku that is interested in Jun more so than Jun in Shinku.

Shinku isn't all that "Lady like" as you say, she seems to use that aspect of her personality, more often than not, to boss others around. She's also quite affectionate and insightful, two very good qualities for someone like Jun.

Truly falling in love can overcome pretty much any obstacle between any two people if mutual, but honestly, seeing how high divorce rates are even between seemingly normal couples...

But "Unusual" couples seem to do better than "Normal" couples, from my experience... it's hard to describe why, but there's a kind of intelligence that seems to come from being strange that can help with such things... normal people are too content to follow exact rules and definitions of a faulty model for a relationship.

I think part of why relationships don't work is that people deny themselves the ones that do because they're "Not right!!!".

Kageitenshi

2007-02-26, 00:45

But Shinku was disappointed that Jun didn't kiss him... it is Shinku that is interested in Jun more so than Jun in Shinku.I know what you mean, but isn't curiousity a power enough in itself without requiring the kiss to lead to anything more? Most certainly if Shinku hasn't ever kissed anyone, seeing how others seem to enjoy doing so, I can see why she's disappointed for not being kissed, without the exigency of love.

Shinku's bossing around also most often includes herself, she would appear to have a strict self-control revolving around this perception of herself as a lady. Such self-assertive behaviour dies hard I can tell you. Can't argue in that she does indeed open up more towards Jun though, as of late.

I think part of why relationships don't work is that people deny themselves the ones that do because they're "Not right!!!".It's sad and it's all too true. Most people are wrong to deny the fact that their lives and more importantly the lives of others are only as good as what they make of it themselves (omitting justified exceptions.) Keep telling them that they're wrong to pose limits from within, when the only true limits are found without!

It is quite true that the "unusual" couples do fare better, but the reasons behind this aren't all that hard to describe actually. It's not as much to do with intelligence than wisdom and understanding of oneself and the desire to understand others to avoid misunderstandings such people tend to suffer from. In other words those who are considered unusual by the majority tend to be more insightful of themselves, are less biased and have the ability to actually talk about all kinds of things taboo.

More often than not, the lack of communication, or the ability to do so brings budding relationships to an untimely end - Lack of understanding caused by lack of communication caused by prejudices and fear of causing something irreversible... ending up with imaginary demons widening the gap between the couple. something that is totally absurd! Rather remaining quiet about important issues out of fear of causing immediate damage (something more likely to be easily fixed as an outcome), while forgetting about the detrimentary effect in the long term. How often do you hear that people saying "we just grew apart" and "we're still friends"

Joojoobees

2007-02-26, 01:04

Third season love triangle: Jun X Shinku X Kunkun

I think Jun loves Shinku whether he knows it or not. I don't think he could have made as much progress if he didn't. So much of what he has done was really done for her, even if it was healthy for him.

Shinku is much more difficult to read. If Kunkun walks in the door (or through the mirror) Jun might not have a chance. As was mentioned above, she has shown an inclination to throw away her relationship with Jun for a chance to renew her relationship with her father.

You could argue about the meaning of the end of Traumend here. I'll say that she stops fighting, not for Jun's sake, but because she had decided that she didn't really want to fight.

Lost

2007-02-26, 01:06

The reason I found it so sweet was because it was breaking all the rules.
Because its wrong? Or an almost forbidden love - one against all odds? :o I might be able to understand something of that reason.

I honestly see no good reason why what was happening at the end of Season 1 couldn't have continued. I still stand by it being really sweet, and the "psychological reasons" only make it more so.
Think about it as a progression of their relationship. By season 2, it's a given that there is something special between Jun and Shinku - that is told to us by what you alluded to in the words, "what was happening at the end of Season 1." So that is already demonstrated (and beautifully too, I might add). Thus, in season 2 itself, it would be only natural for live together to continue as per normal - I mean, isn't that what happens after the insaneness of falling love? - life goes on with the one you love, but here and there, opportunities to demonstrate love, and scenes of love demonstrated, present themselves; and that's what we see in Traumend.

jun would also feel the same...falling in love with a doll? thats crazy...sure he will blush and at shinku in a different manner but ill doubt he would say anything in fear of getting a beating out of his life
Also, it would make Nori's first prediction right. dutch-wife

Third season love triangle: Jun X Shinku X Kunkun
Third season love triangle story: Jun X [[ Shinku X Kunkun ]]

Shinku did that. :D

Kageitenshi

2007-02-26, 01:26

You could argue about the meaning of the end of Traumend here. I'll say that she stops fighting, not for Jun's sake, but because she had decided that she didn't really want to fight.
News Flash! Intermediated from Rozen's mouth: "There's another way to become Alice..." Wouldn't this in itself be a reason to stop the now justifiably meaningless beating the glazing off of each other? :twitch: Beats me...

Quote: Originally Posted by Kittie Rose
The reason I found it so sweet was because it was breaking all the rules.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lost
Because its wrong? Or an almost forbidden love - one against all odds? :o I might be able to understand something of that reason.Because what is wrong? Or almost forbidden? Quoting myself "it only takes one word to justify, explain and make it all reality" that word is love and it miraculously makes all the contradicting opinions vanish in the eyes of the ones intimately involved!

Meh, this post is... for the lack of better word UGLY

Kittie Rose

2007-02-26, 21:52

I hope the third series also deals with Shinku's fear of cats.

I'm a very "meow" person, if I existed in an anime-verse I'd probably be a cat girl! Or a cat spider girl to go all Beast Wars Fuzor-ish. I would creep Shinku out too much! This is no good.

For the sake of this impossible crossover to be resolve, they must have Shinku deal with her fear of cats.

Lost

2007-02-27, 00:28

^ I don't think you wanted an answer to that, but for the sake of discussion I'll answer it anyway. :heh: I doubt so, because Shinku's fear of cats is obviously just for comedy; IMO it has totally nothing to do with her development, personality, or story. And second, just looking at her when she is confronted by a Cat, that fear is superlative. It's a phobia; not something she can deal with. I think that even if KunKun tried, it wouldn't be possible at all.

And third, that phobia of cats just makes her so adorable. So no go. :)

Kageitenshi

2007-02-27, 09:20

I agree, this comedy element revolving around cats and other sorts of "scary" animals is an important thing to have! Even more so, when the only one to overcome this fear was none other than the one considered least mature of the Maidens, Hina :D

Phobias are overpowering, many people who've openly talked about theirs, clearly state that it's something entirely beyond their control even to the extent of being hilariously irrational when they think about cases in which their phobia has "taken over." Surely they can laugh about it later on but the sense of fear is real and too powerful when it does take over, and is far from a laughing case, there's actually death cases caused by such.

Shinku is too proud to admit her phobia and the way she excused herself to Sarah for thinking cats are smelly and what not is comedic! If it were a real case, it's fortunate that Sarah understands Shinku well enough to keep the matter at that and puts the cat away from her instead of "teasing" or aggravating the case (A good example for all the younger viewers.)

Ahiru77

2007-02-27, 10:04

Yep Shinku really is too proud...

Hii im new here....and am a fan of either Barasuishou or Souseiseki XD

Kageitenshi

2007-02-27, 10:46

Hii im new here....and am a fan of either Barasuishou or Souseiseki XDHm? Either... or? O_______o
Nice avatar though... oh and welcome! Do post on the Introduction Thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=35) while at it and wade through the Rules / F.A.Q. section (http://forums.animesuki.com/faq.php?faq=rules). If you haven't already done so ^___^

Question

2007-02-28, 09:46

Every character in traumend pronounces Laplace as "Lapulace". Is this the correct spelling or just a japanese speech quirk, like how everyone pronounces "Junk" as "Junku"?

Also how come Enju and Bara Suishou seem to think they have won the alice game when there the true 7th doll still has her rosa mystica? It seems unlikely they were unaware of her existence as Bara Suishou is a near-perfect copy of the true 7th doll appearance wise, it would have to be some kind of crazy concidence if Enju made Bara Suishou without knowing about the true 7th doll. Also, how come Bara Suishou is so powerful without a medium? Where is she getting the power to do everything?

Deathkillz

2007-02-28, 12:55

^ its spelt Laplace but its just that its pronounced defferently in japanese ~

well bara isnt an original character in the manga so thats the plot hole ~ we dont know if enju knows about kira or if he was basing bara off kira ~ and im also totally in the mist about her powers :s

Choki

2007-03-01, 09:06

^
Whose power?If its Kira, I'm pretty sure it would be 'consume'.....

@Question
Both your ava and siggy scares me >.<

The Omnipotent

2007-03-02, 13:08

maybe rozen is/was enjus teacher so he know alot but not all
@ the manga "Yes" i a bad translation for "desu" ... but in german manga it is tranlatet in "Bitte"
(liddel german lesson:"bitte"="please")

Lost

2007-03-04, 09:29

As a matter of fact, Enju was Rozen's pupil.

Deathkillz

2007-03-04, 10:30

aye he was indeed...but why does enju seem soo youthful? O.o his face hasnt changed since back in ouverture! O.o *hes a vampire i swear XD*

Kageitenshi

2007-03-04, 16:18

It's the power of the Dark Side! Or Laplace's doings anyhow... I'd explain it with Laplace seeing potential in Enju, to be able to play his little games, like they did with Bara. I'd say he did the same to Rozen and made both "immortal" by somehow binding their existence to their N-Fields, only to come to the real world when needed. The way Enju "died" within the N-Field is as if he didn't even have a true physical body anymore. Or something like that "...for fun and games. Until new toys are found..."
No doubt this will be more or less explained in the third season.

Vampire? Rrrrright :p

_duangelique

2007-03-04, 18:30

I think it's because both Rozen and Enju are alchemists, so if they were able to create living dolls (not so much in Enju's case), why not with inmortality?
When I saw Enju in Ouverture, I swore it was Rozen's face, for the first time!!!!
Too bad it wasn't, but I don't think there's a lot of a difference between Rozen and Enju's faces, unless Rozen has an eye missing, or something like it.

Kirramagic

2007-03-04, 19:15

Has there been any news that there's gonna be a 3rd season?

Kageitenshi

2007-03-05, 11:20

I think it's because both Rozen and Enju are alchemistsPossible, but I've seen no indication of this anywhere in the series. Usually alchemists tend to be portrayed with plenty of chemists paraphernelia lying around their houses, not just parts of porcelain dolls in an all around ordinary workshop area of their mansion. There'd be no need to hide being an alchemist, since they were quite respected in Rozen's time. Also, Enju only works on dolls and has his own shop. If he were to follow Rozen's teachings as his apprentice, wouldn't alchemy be included in his "hobbies." Besides, alchemist approach doesn't explain why Enju vanished along with Bara. I'd explain that with Laplace seeing no further use in him and "releasing" his soul along with his creation's.

In short, there has to be a more active role to this Bastard Bunny in all this, than just
- referee: he's too far from neutral, siding with Enju / Bara for his fun and games.
- spectator: one doesn't dictate an end to an era in the Alice Game as he did in Ouvertüre.
- a god figure: knows a lot but can't foresee anything, far from omnipotent, quite the opposite for having to use pawns in his games and retreats behind the curtains until new toys are to be found.
- I'd say he's more of this crazy alchemist type of a person, who's been inhaling those fumes from his concoctions too long. He takes anything and everything thrown at him objectively as if it were just a part of his plans, a minor setback or just something amusing and remains calm, finding all the appropriate words for any situation. Seems to think he's untouchable and above everyone else in the RM universe because of how more intelligent than thou he thinks he is, or whatever powers he might possess besides clinical immortality to the least. What's with the Albino rabbit face anyhow :twitch:

klinton

2007-03-05, 12:20

When I saw Enju in Ouverture, I swore it was Rozen's face, for the first time!!!!
Too bad it wasn't, but I don't think there's a lot of a difference between Rozen and Enju's faces, unless Rozen has an eye missing, or something like it.

I think that's essential to the cannon...I believe they must be similar in appearence...as the dolls were all fooled. You cannot be so devoted to someone and confuse them so easily. You have to remember, that these are the same dolls that can recall to the second thier last meetings...they can surely recall the face of this man.

Kageitenshi

2007-03-05, 13:16

^ Can't recall the dolls being fooled by Enju to believe him to be their father, I only remember them being fooled into believing that Bara is indeed Rozen's creation. Iirc none of the dolls even saw him until the very end, only Jun and Tomoe ever went to his shop? They don't recognize Enju as a possible Maestro, and neither do they identify Shirosaki as Laplace. In Ouvertüre, Shinku only heard from Sarah about the "doll makers" looking for living dolls and was seemed to be certain that it isn't about her Father. Judging by the tone of her voice when she said "must have been doll makers" there was quite a bit of resent. Souseiseki seeing someone resembling father in Bara's little Rozen's crying scene is disputable as we can't be certain as for what or who she actually saw, but it most certainly was schemed by Laplace. Just about the only ones who possibly might have drawn the conclusion that Enju might be Rozen himself are a small portion of the viewers.

Shinku's description of Father clearly states that she's never really seen the face, just a man enveloped in light or something along those lines. So how could one clearly identify anyone from such a vague description similar to any "I've seen the face of god" experience? It's as if the dolls aren't even supposed to remember anything concrete about Rozen, no matter how many times they've been in contact with him. Only feelings, emotions and a vague description of what they've been told by him are to be recalled, so as to preserve a certain mystic quality.

Kittie Rose

2007-03-05, 18:50

Pretty sure the dolls saw him the night before the Alice Game.

Hmm, I wonder if Enju is his son...? Might explain how he has the same talents and looks...

Kageitenshi

2007-03-05, 18:59

Apprenticeship also explains talents / skills for making dolls without Enju having to be Rozen's son directly. It's not impossible, considering how most often a trade was passed on by father to son to run in the family... Though really, Rozen seems a bit too young to have a child of Enju's age ;)

Edit: In episode 10 Shinku, Sui and Kanaria meet Shirosaki and identify him as Laplace, something Jun finds quite shocking, and I totally forgot indeed that it was Shinku who first said in the last seconds of the episode "Father" when Enju walked in from the back room and followed to comply with his order to start the Alice Game as if it was an order from Rozen himself. I only remembered the part in ep. 12 in which Enju himself said he was Rozen's pupil... Oh darn, shouldn't have watched the whole series in an overnight marathon... Anyhow, RM was # 80 or something in my list of anime I've watched and the list is now up to 180, hard not to confuse or forget something :heh:

Edit2: Isn't it also possible that Enju's appearance has been altered purposefully to resemble Rozen, for the very reason to manipulate the dolls into starting the Alice Game if the other means don't work. Just so that he could finally prove to be the better doll maker. After all Shinku said that Rozen also changes appearances throughout the times and creates the dolls as the time goes by... though this brings about a plot hole in the way that we see many of the Maidens in his workshop at the same time built by the same looking person every time in Ouvertüre beginning. It's as if they were created one after another without having been brought alive after creation in the same place within a relatively short timespan, something that somewhat contradicts with Shinku's statement in ep.8 that Rozen would transcend through time, change appearance and create dolls along the journey. Though this only proves that her understanding of the whole Alice thing is somewhat lacking and shouldn't be taken as absolute truth. (Also noticed the image that probably would make Rozen seem like an alchemist, with his silhouette holding a lab bottle in hand with a Rosa Mystica glowing inside.)

nekokaburi

2007-03-05, 21:33

it's fairly obvious that both rozen and enju are not ordinary people bound by the same laws of phisics and realities as everyone else, so i'd day it's perfectly reasonable to asume they can look however they want.

i kind of like the idea that enju looks like rozen, because he wants to be be rozen, he wants to be better than him, just like how he wants bara to be better than kira. so he, in effect, is also an imatation just like bara.

i wonder, if they make a series 3, will enju come back? he had other dolls in his collection, so there might be more than just bara. though personally, i'd like kira to find him, just as he's swearing he'll get revenge on rozen and shinku and everyone...

and then she eats him :D... (that would make a good opener to series 3)

Kittie Rose

2007-03-06, 21:59

so i'd day it's perfectly reasonable to asume they can look however they want.

Err, how? They discovered how to live for hundreds of years, and discovered the N-Fields. How does that make them shape-shifters?

You're not making comic-book sense.

Kageitenshi

2007-03-07, 00:24

Does anything Shinku said in ep. 8 make it any more reasonable to assume that they can somehow willingly alter their looks? Here's quote:
"Transcending time, changing his appearance, Father exists in every world. In order to create Alice."
Despite the fact, that there's no indication that Father has actually changed his looks during the time it took him to create the seven Maidens, I'd still reserve the possibility that these people actually CAN change their looks the very same way Shirosaki / Laplace does right in front of our eyes in ep. 11.

Makes perfect "comic-book sense", following the lines of nekokaburi:
it's fairly obvious that both rozen and enju are not ordinary people bound by the same laws of phisics and realities as everyone else, so i'd day it's perfectly reasonable to asume they can look however they want.

Kittie Rose

2007-03-07, 01:49

Yeah, but that doesn't have to mean 1) Literal shapeshifting, 2) That Enju can do it too.

Kageitenshi

2007-03-07, 06:01

No one said it would have to exclusively mean that they would indeed be shapeshifters of sorts, but it isn't ruled out either...
Just asking others' opinions for the possibility of Enju himself or Laplace using his powers to make Enju look like Rozen in order to use it as a trump card to start the final chapter in the Alice Game and so far there's one opinion against, and one opinion (besides mine) pro the possibility.

The Omnipotent

2007-03-10, 04:42

laplace allready showed that he can chnage his form at last from human too Rabithuman mabe he is also an creation off an alchemist ,a homunculus a living(organic) creatur this is making the perfekt stuff for an fanfic ^^ but im in the army now<.< maby after i will writh one

beseides in the orginal "alice" story is also a withe rabit :D

grey_moon

2007-03-11, 11:47

"Transcending time, changing his appearance, Father exists in every world. In order to create Alice."

Hmmm I'm guessing transcending time means he is not effected by time in terms of dying, because if he could transcend time he could pop along to the point in time that Alice comes about and pat himself on the back and say job well done!

Kageitenshi

2007-03-12, 14:01

Hmmm I'm guessing transcending time means he is not effected by time in terms of dying, because...From Wiktionary
to transcend (transitive or intransitive)

to pass (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pass) beyond (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beyond) the limits (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/limit) of something
to surpass (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surpass) something in intensity (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intensity) or power (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/power); to excel (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/excel)
(philosophy) to exist (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/exist) independently (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/independently) of material (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/material) experience (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/experience)Simply put, time doesn't affect him the same way it affects those in the "real world." I'd think 'to transcend' is the closest one can get to properly translating what Shinku said ...if he could transcend time he could pop along to the point in time that Alice comes about and pat himself on the back and say job well done!One of the paradoxes of time traveling caused by faulty logic :p

If I were to step into a time machine and skip a dozen years with the intent of seeing my future self, I'd be disappointed to find out that according to local sources I would have vanished along with my time machine a dozen years ago ;) (unless I were to step into a paraller universe in which I never used the time machine)
Not even going to bother with the paradoxes involved in going back in time... but, "fast forwarding" in time is theoretically possible thanks to the growing effect of the twin paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox) involved when getting nearer to light speed.

Question

2007-03-12, 15:41

Why dont we just accept that father and enju are magicians who specialise in creating magical dolls and that they have magical powers to deal with aging issues?

It would be pretty silly to start something like the alice game that would last for hundreds of years if you werent capable of some form of physical immortality to stop aging from killing you.

Kageitenshi

2007-03-13, 05:12

Why don't we just accept it? Because truth can not be found in what we see, but we can get closer to seeing it by deducting what we do not see... There's no factual evidence to support your opinion, any of my theories or anything and there never will be unless the story writer tells us his ideas on what's going on. If we just don't see enough, we're free to use our imagination to fill in the rest and to see if it'll come true if or when the third season comes out.

Besides, there wouldn't be any discussion if no-one questioned anything that has happened so far..... eeep, got to go before I get late from work! :P

Question

2007-03-13, 11:45

There are 2 scenarios.

Scenario 1 : They have some powers to make themselves immune to aging.

Scenario 2 : They DONT, but yet they are alive hundreds of years later anyway.

Airrider

2007-03-13, 15:33

Scenario 2 seems most plausible to me...

grey_moon

2007-03-16, 11:55

Or they really are dolls themselves and Alice is their Frankenstein's bride!

wontaek

2007-03-16, 13:48

There are 2 scenarios.

Scenario 1 : They have some powers to make themselves immune to aging.

Scenario 2 : They DONT, but yet they are alive hundreds of years later anyway.

My vote is for Scenario 2. What is likely is that these guys goes into somekind of time-stop until enough rozen maidens wakes up to resume Alice game. If they are active one year and then sleep for 50 years, they would age only about 9~10 years in 500 year span.

Deathkillz

2007-03-16, 14:57

Airrider

2007-03-16, 16:58

who knows...maybe enju has his own life sized suitcase as well for sleeping in :heh: what a sight that would be to see a guy wake up after 100 years of being stuffed in a suitcase :heh:
or the easy option would them to hibernate in their own N field :3

That'd be an easy explanation (the N-field one) because nobody said time had to stay constant in one of those things. Maybe it's like a time machine...

devilgirl11

2007-03-17, 03:02

lol i think i'm crazy if i ask this but when bara died enju dissapeared but if one of the real rozen maidens has all roza mysticas and they would end up like bara then would rozen dissapear?
(and if it doesnt happen in the manga then sorry ppl they dont sell them in estonia so i havent read it..)

Deathkillz

2007-03-17, 05:29

devilgirl11

2007-03-17, 09:19

if a real rozen maiden had all the roza mysticas then the one will become alice and rozen is most likely to come out with some flowers :heh:

bara only disappeared because she wasnt able to contain all the power being a fake rozen maiden...

ohh ok but still i wonder what will happen if alice will be ready.. Will rozen die cause he is like 100 years old xD

Tsuigintou

2007-03-18, 10:08

I wonder if enju has any blood relation to Rozen or not. Because he looks almost the same like Rozen. Since, he is able to manipulate Rozen's doll's(tricking them into starting the Alice game), he must now quite a detail of info about the game.

Deathkillz

2007-03-18, 11:25

^ no they are not related what so ever...enju is only rozen's jealous apprentice (and he probably had a face lift to make himself look like rozen :heh:)
ohh ok but still i wonder what will happen if alice will be ready.. Will rozen die cause he is like 100 years old xD
rozen...die? never...i think in the RM universe he is symbolized as a god...hell know why :rolleyes:

Lost

2007-03-19, 21:31

Maybe Rozen is already dead. For all we know, this "program" he instituted, Alice Game, and it's moderator, Laplace, is just going on and on and on.

Or they really are dolls themselves and Alice is their Frankenstein's bride!
I now wonder what Enju did with Barasuishou in all the free time he had... :naughty: :uhoh:

Zife19

2007-03-19, 21:44

wow...I really hope Enju wasnt like that n_n;; lol

ANyway I wanna see Barasuishou back. Sure she killed most of the maiden, sure shes cold hearted, and sure shes a mindless zombie, but hey thats what I like about her. Though to join them...it would certainly be interesting.

Lost

2007-03-21, 10:05

Azzie

2007-03-25, 22:18

Regarding Bara-san, she showed signs of autisim (probably because she's a fake doll) but.. I think there is another Bara-san , and instead of a Crystal theme , its now a white Rose theme - a possible plot for shinku.

or maybe.. Rozen gave Bara-san a second chance? , I mean.. She got recreated and Laplace sort of lead her to where ever..

nekokaburi

2007-03-26, 00:38

if series 3 did come about, i wouldn't mind seeing bara come back... but then again, i would rather see something else more...

picture this....

>scene open<
enju, frustrated and angry, still desperatly clutching the crumbled remains of barasuishou, returns to his workshop... "how could my doll lose, she was better than them, I am better than them, better than rozen, i am the best..." he places bara's remains on his work bench, and feverishly goes about trying to create her replacement.

>scene changes to the shop front, we can still hear enju frantically talking to himself in the background, about how he's the best<
the glass on the side of his doll cabinet flickers, a single white rose petal falls to the ground.

>scene changes, back to enju's workshop, we see enju in the foreground, but the focus is on the ghostly figure, walking up behind him...<
enju still frantically working with his new doll still doesn't notice... sudenly the doll he's working on slips out of his hands and falls on the bench... enju is frozen with fear, but he doesn't know why... sweat is dripping from his forehead... his breathing is slow, and quivering...

he turns to face his visitor... who stares back at him with her single yellow eye... a wicked smile is on her ghostly face, as she reaches out to him, caressing his cheeck with her hand...

>scene changes, to the crumbles remains of barasuihou<
we see what remains of bara's face, shattered and broken lying on the bench, her remaining eye seems to be staring at her creator. his shadow is cast upon her, as wickedly barded rose vines tear their way through his flesh, a single tear rolls down her shattered face...

>scene changes, back to floor of the workshop<,
we see enju's hand in the forground, covered in blood lying liflessly on the ground, entwined in rose vines with a single white rose between his fingers... we also see the figure in white walking away, back to the shadows...

>fade to black<

creative license or what, but i think it could work... it'd make a great opener for series 3. it ties off the lose ends with bara and enju, and introduces kira at the same time...

Lost

2007-03-26, 10:16

^ Nice, very nice indeed. A question; where would BB be in all this? We saw him leading Kirakishou at the end of Traumend, so he must figure somewhere.

grey_moon

2007-03-27, 08:57

I know why Kira is mad,
it is not coz Rozen didn't complete her,
it's not coz of BB manipulating her.
No it was coz Rozen imagined her with a thorny rose stem in her eye socket.
Talk about a migraine!

Kageitenshi

2007-03-27, 15:14

That's a good one! Could imagine something like this to have happened:

Oh rats! I just broke my last yellow glass eye... I've already got two dolls with heterochromia, soooooo..... *looks around the workshop and outside the window* AHA! *Scetches a rose on the blueprints* Eureka! *runs outside to the rose garden, picks up a fittingly colored rose* This'll do juuuust fine!

Cinnabon-chan

2007-04-01, 11:46

Well, I doubt that's possible; she did disintegrate before disappearing to god knows where. In other words, it looked pretty hopeless. But yes, she had an interesting personality, of which we only got a little glimpse of in Traumend. Then again, she was indirectly responsible for Souseiseki's death, which made my Queen-sama cry; unforgivable!!

:heh:

Sure Barasuisho seemed to crack, but she vanished before we saw her completely disintergrate, even if half her face had caved in.

But then again, Sugintou was burnt to ashes pretty much at the end of Rozen Maiden, and she came back, even though it pretty much seemed to suggest she was destroyed.

grey_moon

2007-04-01, 21:09

Sure Barasuisho seemed to crack, but she vanished before we saw her completely disintergrate, even if half her face had caved in.

But then again, Sugintou was burnt to ashes pretty much at the end of Rozen Maiden, and she came back, even though it pretty much seemed to suggest she was destroyed.

Well by Enju's earlier actions (and I guess his definition of love) he should apply the mallet to Bara when she is in a sack, as she did not do what she was supposed to (absorb the Rosa Mystica). Personally I don't agree with this type of action myself and I don't think he would do it...

Cinnabon-chan

2007-04-11, 20:31

Well by Enju's earlier actions (and I guess his definition of love) he should apply the mallet to Bara when she is in a sack, as she did not do what she was supposed to (absorb the Rosa Mystica). Personally I don't agree with this type of action myself and I don't think he would do it...

I cant imagine him smashing her, he really seemed to adore her. She was his masterpiece, but it also seemed like he had genuine affection for her.

Also, does anyone know why sometimes the characters dont prounounce the "u" in Shinku, and it comes out as "Shink"? sometimes even Shinku says it.

grey_moon

2007-04-12, 22:47

I cant imagine him smashing her, he really seemed to adore her. She was his masterpiece, but it also seemed like he had genuine affection for her.

Yah I have to agree with you there, but I do think that makes him a bit of a hypocrite.... Unless of course he does his smashing doll's in a bag thing to scare children!

Lost

2007-04-14, 09:03

Also, does anyone know why sometimes the characters dont prounounce the "u" in Shinku, and it comes out as "Shink"? sometimes even Shinku says it.
Flo would jump on this ("sTink"). But meh, I've never heard a "Shink" from any of the characters. Maybe you mean: "Shin-ke" with the "ku" bit said so fast that it sounds like a "ke."

I cant imagine him smashing her, he really seemed to adore her. She was his masterpiece, but it also seemed like he had genuine affection for her.
Yah I have to agree with you there, but I do think that makes him a bit of a hypocrite.... Unless of course he does his smashing doll's in a bag thing to scare children!
Actually, I think there's a good chance he would smash her. I feel that he only loved her and acted that way to her because she was his masterpiece; and he thought that masterpiece could become Alice. Now he knows she can't - thus I doubt any of the love remains. He seems like a cold person - I remember his cold emotionless face watching Shinku and Bara (or Gin?) fighting in the Garden. I doubt he would spare his doll now that she has been found lacking.

Suiseiseki

2007-04-15, 18:24

Actually, I think there's a good chance he would smash her. I feel that he only loved her and acted that way to her because she was his masterpiece; and he thought that masterpiece could become Alice. Now he knows she can't - thus I doubt any of the love remains. He seems like a cold person - I remember his cold emotionless face watching Shinku and Bara (or Gin?) fighting in the Garden. I doubt he would spare his doll now that she has been found lacking.

Poor Barasuishou.:(

grey_moon

2007-04-16, 02:46

[
Actually, I think there's a good chance he would smash her. I feel that he only loved her and acted that way to her because she was his masterpiece; and he thought that masterpiece could become Alice. Now he knows she can't - thus I doubt any of the love remains. He seems like a cold person - I remember his cold emotionless face watching Shinku and Bara (or Gin?) fighting in the Garden. I doubt he would spare his doll now that she has been found lacking.

People do have a strange way of showing their love sometimes :(

princess lilo

2007-04-30, 13:48

oops, i accidentally started a new rozen maiden thread, sorry!

princess lilo

2007-04-30, 13:55

I do think Traumend is better than the first season, but i haven't fully seen the first season, but i have read the manga, and it kept me reading!
i do have the whole rozen maiden traumend OST, and I am tottaly going off the subject, anyways, I loved Episodes 10-12 of Traumend, and I did like the season final of Rozen Maiden, but Traumend was the best!

YAY ROZEN MAIDEN, YAAAYY!

tyciol

2007-05-16, 08:41

It was pretty strange since he kept on saying nice things about Shinku's beautiful battle, only to get emotional over Bara. Was he contemplating the qualities that would be added to Bara when she wins?

Lost

2007-05-18, 11:18

I don't think it's neccessarily strange in your context. One can admire a rival's masterpiece.

innominate

2007-05-31, 00:44

One can admire a rival's masterpiece.
Or perhaps jealousy. Rozen wasn't exactly an active rival.

Hmm... Watched both seasons of RM yesterday, inspired by sol's vectors XD. Heh, will find time to post in the discussion threads if they get warmer Kkex!! :heh:

Deathkillz

2007-05-31, 12:43

^ oh great someone who has jumped onto the wonderful bandwagon called ROZEN MAIDEN! :D

plz post your feeling etc so we can start a healthy discussion :3

(but be warned...this person is a gin sama lover so you are my enemy by defult if you like a certain ***** :rolleyes:)

Ayame_

2007-05-31, 15:03

Ill take my chances, i personally hated Gin in the first season and warmed up a bit more to her in the 2nd season. so you can go after me as you see fit now.

personally, i thought Jun was useless for the entire thing, its like he was impertinent to everything around him and couldn't grasp it. I can see Shinku bashing him constantly for being useless.

great show in all, enjoyed it, gotta watch it again for screen caps, but my fav doll is still Souseiseki, she seemed to be the only one who thought everything though and wasn't ignorant. She did take Bara's bait, but im sure any of them would have minus Suiseiseki as she was very Ghandi like through it. thats my 2 cents.

Deathkillz

2007-05-31, 15:13

hmm i see...but imo sou's personality changed a great deal from the OVA where she was stubbon as hell (which caused gin sama's unfortunate relationship breakdown with shinku...)

in S1 jun really is an idiot...but i liked him more comming into S2...he matured as well as a person kicking his hikkikomori status and this time it was shinku with the mind problems...

and you hate gin sama you say? shame on you :p her reasons are well justified for wanting to "junk" shinku as well as we also see her turning better as a person (doll lol) ever since she met megu...ahh the love :3

Ayame_

2007-05-31, 15:48

oh i agree with several of your points, sou and everyone else grew from over the 1st to 2nd seasons. Jun did so, and yes i got less annoying, but he still was annoying, it was like he didnt know how to act with the dolls, so he just ignored them.

shinku's mind problems of the impending alice game gets him to care for at least on of them, he also grows alot in the last ep during the battle, stopping Shinku form killing Bara.

and Gin related: i dont question her motives, i think most people(or dolls) would want some kind of revenge for being junked, the ova was very informative, almost wish i could have seen it during traumend instead of after, it really fleshed out the conflict. and i warmed up more to her during traumend, and her with Megu was touching, im still not a fan in the Gin-cult, and after looking through several posts in this section it is a rather large group.

mdauben

2007-06-01, 09:21

I just finished watching Rozen Maiden ~Träumend~ last night and thought I would share a few thoughts (pardon the long post, or if I am retreading ground that has already been covered in this thread). ;)

After watching and really enjoying the first season of Rozen Maiden, I was looking forward to ~Träumend~, but I have to say after watching it I was somewhat disappointed. :(

What I though made the original Rozen Maiden so great, were the characters of Jun and Shinku, and their relationship. The way the two characters were developed through the course of the series, and the rather unique relationship that grew up between them made the anime really great. On the other hand, that "chemistry" between the two seemed gone in ~Träumend~. Where as Jun had provided both emotional and "magical" support to Shinku in the first season, he seemed to almost be a side character in this season, who did little except hang out in the doll shop, and yell at everyone to not fight.

There seemed to be an attempt at developing the relationship between Jun and Suiseiseki, but it was half-hearted and in the end really didn’t amount to much. Suiseiseki did her tsundere act, trying to disguise her “feelings” for Jun, but he remained totally oblivious to her throughout the series, and did little to help her or support her emotionally. In addition, Shinku seemed either oblivious or indifferent to any sort of relationship between the two, and didn't seem to even care about sharing her "servant" with Suiseiseki. I would have expected at least a little jealousy to make things more interesting. But nothing.

While in the original series Suigintou was a classical "sympathetic villain", in ~Träumend~ Barasuishou and even more so Enju were just loathsome creeps, with no real redeeming qualities. Barasuishou seemed to be little more than a shallow clone of Suigintou, mimicking her appearance and sinister persona, without the depth that made Suigintou such a great antagonist for the other dolls.

Even the ending was just not especially satisfying. The moment between Jun and Shinku paled in comparison to the much more emotional ending of the first season. The whole thing ending was something of a deus ex machina, too. It was not due to anything that either Jun or Shinku did, and made all their efforts (such as they were) rather pointless. The fact that two of the dolls are still “asleep” at the end also put a damper on the “happy ending”. Obviously it’s a set up for another season, but still…

I hate to come across as so negative, and it was still good in its way, but as I said compared to the first season it ended up somewhat disappointing and in the end, unsatisfying. :(

innominate

2007-06-01, 10:28

I disagree with your points about Bara and Enju: they have alot of significance...

In fact, the villain of Bara holds alot deeper as compared to Gin.

But I'm still writing my post so I'd explain later =D

mdauben

2007-06-01, 10:44

I disagree with your points about Bara and Enju: they have alot of significance...
I'd be verry interested in hearing why you think so. To me they were uninteresting, shallow and dissappointing.

In fact, the villain of Bara holds alot deeper as compared to Gin.
Can you explain, becuase I just don't see why. Barasuishou's only motivation seemed a shallow "father love", simply mirroring Suigintou's motivation, without the backstory or sympathetic elements that made Suigintou such a great "villian". :confused:

innominate

2007-06-01, 11:01

Oh well... First off, thanks for the welcome killz. =D It certainly felt warm. For that I give you a hug. ^^

Hmm, well, I don't exactly hate Gin, but I don't love her as you do =/.
I agree with Ayame. All the characters definitely grew in terms of personality over the second season. Suigintou has a very interesting character in the sense that she has a very clear direction in life, and a very strong sense of belonging. Amidst her amusing blend of self confidence and delirious charm we see Gin as a very 3-dimensional villain: She has a well fleshed character, a highly rational reason, and most importantly, realistic interaction with the other characters.

Secondly, mmh thanks for the insight, mdauben. I'd do make a short detour around the premise of Rozen Maiden to answer your question ^^!

--

Mmh the point I would like to propound would be regarding the creation of the dolls... Somehow or another, I tend to, at certain points of the show, equate Rozen to an embodiment of god.
In this case, I would like to refer to an earlier question in the faq thread:
" What was the process that led Rozen to create each doll so different from the other ? "

In the case that we see Rozen as god, it should also be safe to assume the dolls were somewhat created in 'the image of god'. This is merely an opinion; an idea, but it also has alot of relevance to the plot and character development of the story.

Mmh, so how do the dolls symbolize Rozen? In the crudest sense, with 7 different dolls, we see the different 'faces' of Rozen. For a start I believe that Alice is a personification of Rozen in a very metaphorical manner (Up till now, Rozen simply exists as an identity, not a person ^^). The overarching theme of identity is hence mirrored through the interactions between the Rozen Maidens in their quest to become Alice.

The fact remains that, none of the dolls can fully represent Alice per se, but altogether they do mirror what we could call a bleak interpretation of what Alice (Rozen's personality) would be like.

Analyzing the separate characters I will do later I guess. Their individual characteristics are highly significant but ~Uhh! Too much to write about ><!!""""

I shall now focus on Enju then... Since mdauben has asked several pertinent questions.

The theme of identity, I believe, is even more substantiated in Enju's creation of Barashisho. Although we know Enju is not Rozen, and has yet to achieve Rozen's 'godlike status', we see that subtle signs of Rozen do manifest in all Maestros and hence it is important to understand the role of Enju and he is probably the next to best example we can use if we wish to decipher Rozen. As we were misled into thinking he was Rozen in the first half of ~traumend~, he should then be characteristic of Rozen until the point where his flaws were revealed, I suppose.

In my opinion, Barashisho simply reflects Enju's personality in a very peculiar yet succinct manner. We see Bara's obvious pseudo superiority complex from her contempt and ignorance towards the other dolls. In fact, her apocryphal superiority is further exemplified in the very last episode, whereby...
"I knew it, you are weak."
Okay that sentence was freaking painful. For that moment I felt a heavy sense of loss. But the point remains that Bara is as deluded as aforementioned. Her remark was clearly not one of wit: She was serious zomg!

But anyway, the second trademark of Barashisho would be her characteristic inclination to parrot the other dolls. This, apart from comic relief, also gives us some insight into Enju's personality. If we compare Enju:Rozen as we would for Bara:RozenMaidens, we see to some extent that Enju is merely imitating Rozen and pretty much lacks originality when creating dolls. Over the other side of this juxtaposition we also see a similar disposition in Barashisho, whereby she can only copy the words of the other characters in a very 2-dimensional fashion.

Thus, no matter hard Enju tries to reach the standard of Rozen, he still lacks a voice of his own in that very metaphorical sense. In this case, we see that this metaphor expounds itself in the form of sincerity; love, and a genuine heart, and thus the message is simple, clear yet acutely poignant.

Oh yes, to illustrate with another example, we see that Enju detests, demolishes and then disposes of his 'failed dolls' (Whoo! Alliteration!!). This kind of reflects his train of thought at that point in time. His detest implies subtle jealousy (towards Rozen), and a fleeting sense of despair. Yet, instead of contemplation and/or repair, Enju chooses to turn away from his failure. He simply gets rid of the evidence of his inferiority.
Lalala~ Although I know in the literal sense it would be dumb for a dollmaker not to do so, the fact that Rozen Maiden ~Traumend~ chooses to highlight this scene gives us a reason to look deeper into it ^^.

We can also use this to draw a link to the falling apart of Barashisho. We sense Enju's distress when he started commenting on and admiring what tyciol has pointed out: Shinku's ability.
His jealousy is undeniable at this point in time, so much such that he feels disheartened by his inability to create Bara as perfect as Shinku. This is his breaking point, and also the point where he starts to feel 'failed'. As with the other failed dolls he talked to Jun about, he begins to view Bara in the same way. His jealousy overrides his confidence and both he and Bara begin to break down.

Towards the end, you hear Enju fantasizing about his doll being greater than the Rozen Maidens, but this is obviously a last minute facade, and within his voice you taste a tang of hopelessness. Good job VA!!!! =D

This is my reason to why Bara broke apart I guess, expounding on Alu's faq reply. Bara's cries to Enju could be heard as one derived from Enju's betrayal and momentary dereliction, and is quite similar to the cries of Suigintou in the previous season, although their reasons do differ.

Mmh, so, just a little insight on my part. ><. This is where I find the significance of Bara and Enju so. I don't think this has been mentioned in previous posts... has it?

But at any rate, the themes in Rozen Maiden are very strong, and even the subtle ones weigh very heavy =D. This is thus one of the reasons why I love this series.

On a side note... I've read through ajfafajsgdasincessant pages of discussion and to those who have been here longer than I, I ask: What happened to Alu!? o____O I need her analytical power!!...

--

Bah gotta work on my book review. Have any of you read Cosmos by Carl Sagan? ^^

Editing:
Doing a bit of touching up on phrasing and presentation. Gah. Curse them inaccuracies ><

Deathkillz

2007-06-01, 11:55

whow deep fry analysis O.o
as i see it rozen does portray himself as a god (no devil would be more appropriate) ~ his aims are relatively unknown so from what i can come up with his personality he is trying to create the perfect being for himself...which is alice ~ just imagine him as a poor slob who loathes real humans...(bah i cant imagine him getting a girl withthat attitude so instead he makes one himself) ~

noone is perfect...especially the creator so his hopes of creating a perfect being was pretty much split into 7 beings...i wonder where he got the idea from for his creations to murder each other in order to satisfy his own selfish need? :rolleyes:

enju is even worse in that department...he is jealous of rozen...to the extent it becomes an obsession...creating bara only to show his former master up i think hes even more screwed that rozen in that department :heh:
but its true what they say about your creations reflecting the image of the creator...bara was just that ~ lonely and love deprived...all she wanted was for enju to love and see her as the perfect creation...
he is in fact mimiking rozen's style unable to find one himself but even now im still puzzled at how he managed to make bara move...maybe her love for him was as strong as gin sama's looking back at the OVA ouventure :3

innominate

2007-06-01, 12:20

whow deep fry analysis O.o
Gg-g-garhh-desu~. o.o. Thanks! >_>

But I would like to imagine Alice as a representation of Rozen. I don't think Rozen intended for the Alice Game to begin with. The very fact that the term 'perfect' is highly subjective questions our understanding of Rozen. I gotta take down some notes about the Alice Game next time ><

Well, so about perfection... to you, killz, Suigintou is perfect I guess. For others, they find that in the other characters as well... In what way can we hence consider Alice worthy of our collective love? In that sense I find Rozen representative of a god.

Oh yes, Enju was able to make Bara move as his love for his dolls is epitomized in his desire to surpass Rozen. i.e. Comparing Enju:Rozen to Bara:Otherdolls.

Hmm, will elaborate later I guess ^^''

That said, you haven't answered!! ><
Where's Alu? A little Enju complex has overcome me at this point in time XD

mdauben

2007-06-01, 12:26

I realty like your detailed explanation of your feelings about the series, Innominate! Bare with me a bit, because I am not sure I am following all your points, but I do like to talk about this stuff. :heh:

I agree with Ayame. All the characters definitely grew in terms of personality over the second season.
This is the first point I think I can’t agree with. It didn’t seem to me like many of the “old” characters really grew or developed in the second season. Taking Jun for example, he went a long way to overcoming his hikikomori problem in the first season, and also his relationship with Shinku helped draw him out of his self-absorbed state, opening him up to not only her but to his sister and his friend, too. In the Traumend, though he seemed much more static. His re-integration with society seemed to be at a plateau that didn’t really change in the course of the series (he was getting out of the house, and studying to get caught up with school, but he didn’t actually end up going to school, or interacting with more of his peers). Likewise his relations with his sister, his friend, or even with the other dolls didn't seem much different or deeper than it was at the beginning of the season.

Amidst her amusing blend of self confidence and delirious charm we see Gin as a very 3-dimensional villain: She has a well fleshed character, a highly rational reason, and most importantly, realistic interaction with the other characters.
I think you do have a point here that I may have overlooked at first. Suigintou did grow a bit her due to her relationship with her own medium. She was effected by Shinku’s arguments against the Alice game, at least to some extent, but the growing affection for her Medium gave her another, none selfish reason to pursue the game. So, Suigintou did indeed grow in this series.

I shall now focus on Enju then... Since mdauben has asked several pertinent questions.
Thanks! ;)

Although we know Enju is not Rozen, and has yet to achieve Rozen's 'godlike status', we see that subtle signs of Rozen do manifest in all Maestros and hence it is important to understand the role of Enju and he is probably the next to best example we can use if we wish to decipher Rozen.
So, Enju as a symbol represents a flawed version of Rozen? He perhaps gives us some insight into Rozen in that manner, although I think given his flaws any parallels we try to draw as going to be suspect. Does the fact that Enju is vain, selfish, and cruel mean that Rozen is too, or are those the flaws that differentiate them? Is his failure due to a lack of skill, or due to his inability to really love his creations the way Rozen did?

I can see that, but as a character he to my mind fails. He seems to be trying to prove that he is as good or better than Rozen, but why? What is driving him? What was his relationship like with Rozen? He is a two-dimensional villain with no real explanation for why he is the way he is.

But anyway, the second trademark of Barashisho would be her characteristic inclination to parrot the other dolls.
This is something I admit I missed, and is an interesting concept, that Barashisho’s mimicking of the other dolls, is symbolic of Enju’s trying to copy Rozen. Still, like Enju Barashisho becomes more of a symbol than a fleshed out character. Other than doing it “for father” what is her motivation? In Suigintou’s case, her back story gives us insight into that. Her feelings of abandonment by Rozen. Her feelings of betrayal by Shinku. And overall her subconscious feelings of inferiority based on those experiences and her own “incomplete” status. All that is driving her to become Alice. Why does Barashisho want to be Alice? Becasue "father" told her to?

Mmh, so, just a little insight on my part. ><. This is where I find the significance of Bara and Enju so.
I think perhaps I begin to see why we came out of the series with different opinions of it. You seem to be looking at Traumend as… allegory or symbolism for a number of ideas. I can see where you are coming from in that, and perhaps as allegory or symbolism the series does succeed. On the other hand, I am looking at the series more for its quality as a story and its ability to evoke an emotional response in the viewer. It is in that respect that I felt the anime, while it did not fail, came up short compared to the original season.

Thanks for the interesting and thought provoking discussion in any case. If you have any more comments on what I had to say, or any other insights into the series, I’d love to read them. :D

Ayame_

2007-06-01, 15:40

Whoa! so much reading, im not going to lie, i didnt read everything but i see a few points i can comment on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by innominate View Post
I agree with Ayame. All the characters definitely grew in terms of personality over the second season.
This is the first point I think I can’t agree with. It didn’t seem to me like many of the “old” characters really grew or developed in the second season. Taking Jun for example, he went a long way to overcoming his hikikomori problem in the first season, and also his relationship with Shinku helped draw him out of his self-absorbed state, opening him up to not only her but to his sister and his friend, too. In the Traumend, though he seemed much more static. His re-integration with society seemed to be at a plateau that didn’t really change in the course of the series (he was getting out of the house, and studying to get caught up with school, but he didn’t actually end up going to school, or interacting with more of his peers). Likewise his relations with his sister, his friend, or even with the other dolls didn't seem much different or deeper than it was at the beginning of the season.
i dont think the second season really was supposed top be a character development stage, we know who everyone is, the only character development is really in Shinku and her having to worry about how she really felt in the Alice game, and intro of Kana, even though i think she was designed as being more comic relief and was pretty unnecessary.

So, Enju as a symbol represents a flawed version of Rozen? He perhaps gives us some insight into Rozen in that manner, although I think given his flaws any parallels we try to draw as going to be suspect. Does the fact that Enju is vain, selfish, and cruel mean that Rozen is too, or are those the flaws that differentiate them? Is his failure due to a lack of skill, or due to his inability to really love his creations the way Rozen did?

I can see that, but as a character he to my mind fails. He seems to be trying to prove that he is as good or better than Rozen, but why? What is driving him? What was his relationship like with Rozen? He is a two-dimensional villain with no real explanation for why he is the way he is.

Enju i think isnt so much as beign a big cliche, he is Darth Vader to Obi Wan if you follow me, its the teacher vs student thing, its overused and i believe its in their to stir conflict, because i think the series if broken down to essentials is this: rozens creations that were meant to be perfect, separately they are not but by acquiring the parts of the others they can be. they were made to fight from the get go, that was the original intention. sooner or later, since Rozen is godlike as is Enju for he was seen in far past with Lapace in the the OVA, he can wait a long time. Enju creating Bara is a uncalculated problem that causes Rozen to re-think his design. Jun, Nori and Tomoe are all secondary to the Alice game. They serve functions and what they think and feel are tied to what the dolls can do and how they respond, it is still all about the dolls and their quest.

So regarding Bara and Enju, both were not accounted for in the Rozen Equation but they helped fix the equation.

This may have been answered before, what what is the significance of Lapace leading Kira at the end of Traumed? im just guessing, but if Laplace does the bidding of Rozen, he may be baiting Kira to avoid the conflict now that he has decided to scrap the Alice Game.

Deathkillz

2007-06-01, 15:51

Enju i think isnt so much as beign a big cliche, he is Darth Vader to Obi Wan if you follow me, its the teacher vs student thing, its overused and i believe its in their to stir conflict, because i think the series if broken down to essentials is this: rozens creations that were meant to be perfect, separately they are not but by acquiring the parts of the others they can be. they were made to fight from the get go, that was the original intention. sooner or later, since Rozen is godlike as is Enju for he was seen in far past with Lapace in the the OVA, he can wait a long time. Enju creating Bara is a uncalculated problem that causes Rozen to re-think his design. Jun, Nori and Tomoe are all secondary to the Alice game. They serve functions and what they think and feel are tied to what the dolls can do and how they respond, it is still all about the dolls and their quest.

So regarding Bara and Enju, both were not accounted for in the Rozen Equation but they helped fix the equation.

This may have been answered before, what what is the significance of Lapace leading Kira at the end of Traumed? im just guessing, but if Laplace does the bidding of Rozen, he may be baiting Kira to avoid the conflict now that he has decided to scrap the Alice Game.
whow whow! whats this speculation on enju helping rozen about?
by the time enju made bara in S2 rozen has long since made all his dolls ~ and no he didnt scrap the idea of obtaining alice...enju appearing to mess things up wasnt according to plan but in the end he practically resetted the playing field my fixing up the dolls that were unfairly defeated...

as for Lapace being together with kira...only S3 will tell ;)

Ayame_

2007-06-01, 17:09

whow whow! whats this speculation on enju helping rozen about?
by the time enju made bara in S2 rozen has long since made all his dolls ~ and no he didnt scrap the idea of obtaining alice...enju appearing to mess things up wasnt according to plan but in the end he practically resetted the playing field my fixing up the dolls that were unfairly defeated...

as for Lapace being together with kira...only S3 will tell

well, i guess i didnt explain myself correctly, what i meant was that, Enju wanted to show up Rozen, not help him fix the problem, that was what resulted in his actions, he had to intention of helping Rozen at all. he did as you sad and helped things out, but his intention was never to do that, he wanted to hinder and he did, he abruptly started the Alice game on his terms, and im not sure he fixed Gin, i dont remember seeing any evidence of it.

blahdida

2007-06-01, 17:42

Am i the only one freaked out by the serie? Some dude with talking dolls, is there something im missing in the serie? Anything satirical?

Ayame_

2007-06-01, 19:12

probably lol, just kidding.:D

i love the series, one of my all time favs, i dont think it has a lot of satirical qualities but it does have some humour in it, it may just not be for everyone.

Mirrinus

2007-06-01, 19:28

I dunno...after seeing anime with giant robots blowing up planets, aliens battling matrix-style, and demons and vampires killing stuff with gallons of blood splurting everywhere, you're freaked out when an animated doll talks?

I like the series primarily for the good character development and the hilarious character-driven humor *coughStairWarscough*.

blahdida

2007-06-01, 23:29

its really wierd imo

Deathkillz

2007-06-02, 08:30

Am i the only one freaked out by the serie? Some dude with talking dolls, is there something im missing in the serie? Anything satirical?
my first reaction to this series?

:twitch:

but that was because i saw a doll in the OP...and being allegic to dolls at the time i was surprised...

but after season 1...guess what? im cured! :D (i think...) ~ well anyway im cured enough to not get anymore nightmares from the lights of chucky T.T

ginsama!! ~~ :love:

Jazz00006

2007-06-05, 02:55

:D You guys have amassed quite a lot of images and facts, and its been fun reading it all. But has the topic of "What else can you do to become Alice" been touched? (Skipped a few posts)

(Now don't take this the wrong way)
I've only just finished the series after watching it with my girlfriend, and I've started to make a small desktop buddy application for myself, (Suiseiseki and Suigintou being the only working characters right now(and its still in beta)) But I was wondering if anyone here would be interested in my work. (If not, it wont come up again)

Ayame_

2007-06-05, 14:29

Thats actually pretty cool, make a souseiseki one and im all for it, lol id probably wanna check it out anyways.

but wither or not their is another way to become Alice, it is pretty open. their werent a whole alot of hints, i can even really remember any of them, because im not sure there were any. it almost says 'let your imagination run wild'

Jazz00006

2007-06-05, 18:34

Thats actually pretty cool, make a souseiseki one and im all for it, lol id probably wanna check it out anyways.
souseiseki will be the third one then, just for you :D

but wither or not their is another way to become Alice, it is pretty open. their werent a whole alot of hints, i can even really remember any of them, because im not sure there were any. it almost says 'let your imagination run wild'

which is what I love about that season 2 ending.

I just hope that the manga doesn't effect the anime, I so want a third season to be made.

grey_moon

2007-06-07, 11:56

@mdauben

I think the way I see RM compared to RMT was the first series was the focus on development of Jun's character whilst telling the story of the Alice game. Every thing that happened I was looking on the impact it had on Jun and his issue.

With S2 I think that the focus moved off Jun onto Shinku. As you quite rightly pointed out Jun did appear a little static in S2 especially if you compare it to S1, but we got so much more insight into the maiden's especially into Shinku with the way she reacted to Gin's death. And I thought her going spaz over Gin ripping her arm off was bad....

Shinku show jealousy?? She needs no such emotion as she has her servants firmly under her shoe!

Cataclysm

2007-08-22, 19:39

Hey guys, I've been reading for a few pages, but theres no way in heck I'm going through all 336 of them, so this might be a repeat question, but...

Is Rozen Maiden going to have a 3rd season?

•••Shadow•••

2007-08-22, 19:43

That's in stars T_T
We all (well most of us) hope for 3rd season...
Now, no one knows (except makers of anime :P)

Lav

2007-08-29, 09:11

Any ideas about possible plot lines for the 3rd Season (assuming it will ever be aired)?

So far, I see the following ones:

1. Shinku's quest to resurrect Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo. Is it possible? How? What is the price to be paid?
2. Search of other ways to become Alice. Might be closely tied with the #1.
3. Jun's relations with Tomoe. This is an auxilliary plot but a wanted one.
4. Taming Suigintou and making her at least neutral. Probably bringing Megu to Jun's house for a cup of tea and a bit of talk?
5. Jun's further development of his Hidden Abilities.
6. Karakishou. Now I have no idea what's coming but I really hope she will not be an "Evil Doll Pushing for the Alice Game, version 3.0 beta".
7. Yamamoto finally confessing to Nori - and maybe learning about the dolls?

Are there any other plot suggestions?

•••Shadow•••

2007-08-30, 07:21

I have personally no idea how should it continue...

Only thing I know is that there should be Kirakishou no matter what..
And she would, I hope she will be evil just like in manga.
And of course, ressurecting must be there too..
Because if would be followed by the story in manga,
Kira would have to drain Hina's energy...
But Hina have to ressurect first
Megu metting up with Jun?........ Please, no -_-
Lol and Yamamoto?... That's the character I ignored the most...
And maybe there could appear Rozen for longer time..

Lav

2007-08-31, 02:14

I have personally no idea how should it continue...
Only thing I know is that there should be Kirakishou no matter what..
And she would, I hope she will be evil just like in manga.
That would be pretty boring IMO. Yet another Evil Doll with the same agenda? We have seen that in S1 with Gin and in S2 with Bara, it's an old trick already.

Kara should have some new trick up her sleeve. For example, she could try running her own version of the Resurrection Project - for her own goals (whatever those are).

And of course, ressurecting must be there too..
Definitely. We need Hina for Stair Wars Episode II.

Because if would be followed by the story in manga,
Kira would have to drain Hina's energy...
But Hina have to ressurect first
I don't think following Manga story will do the show any good.

Megu metting up with Jun?........ Please, no -_-
Not Jun, but Nori, Shinku and others. If Jun happens to be on the scene as well - good, but not necessary.

Consider this. We lost Hina and it's unlikely she will be resurrected by 5th episode. And we have no replacement for her (Kanaria is just a poor substitute). But 5th episode must be a comical filler, there's no arguing about this.

And with the cast we have at hand, the best solution for comical filler is to see Suigintou coming to Jun's house with guns blazing in order to save Megu from the clutches of Evil Shinku and Co - and seeing Megu peacefully chatting with Shinku and others and inviting Gin to join the party.

Now that would be a scene I'd love to see.

Lol and Yamamoto?... That's the character I ignored the most...
And maybe there could appear Rozen for longer time..
I'm not sure more Rozen will be good for plot consistency.

But there's another thought. We may see some more animated dolls, not Rozen Maiden ones. After all, Rozen and Enju are not the only ones capable of making animated dolls - Ouverture is especially revealing about this. That's yet another potential plotline.

•••Shadow•••

2007-08-31, 06:56

That would be pretty boring IMO. Yet another Evil Doll with the same agenda? We have seen that in S1 with Gin and in S2 with Bara, it's an old trick already.

Kara should have some new trick up her sleeve. For example, she could try running her own version of the Resurrection Project - for her own goals (whatever those are).
Well I didn't meant it like I want her to be EXATCLY like in manga...
Only condition is that she wouldn't be the "good one"..
After all, she is my favourite character because I like her personality...

Definitely. We need Hina for Stair Wars Episode II.
lol ^^. Yeah I like how creators made eps. 5 so funny. And Stair Wars were really great ^^... But I also hope for ressurecting Souseiseki (one of my fav. dolls)

I don't think following Manga story will do the show any good.
Yes I think that too.. I just meant like if it would be similar or something that they would ahve to put her there... I really cannot probably even imagine 3rd season without Kira...

Not Jun, but Nori, Shinku and others. If Jun happens to be on the scene as well - good, but not necessary.

Consider this. We lost Hina and it's unlikely she will be resurrected by 5th episode. And we have no replacement for her (Kanaria is just a poor substitute). But 5th episode must be a comical filler, there's no arguing about this.

And with the cast we have at hand, the best solution for comical filler is to see Suigintou coming to Jun's house with guns blazing in order to save Megu from the clutches of Evil Shinku and Co - and seeing Megu peacefully chatting with Shinku and others and inviting Gin to join the party.

Now that would be a scene I'd love to see.

Lol now that's funny idea.. And yeah I already said it... 5th ep is always the funny one... But lol.. Megu has sick heart so its acutally impossible...
And also I don't think that turning Suigintou into funny character would be good...

I'm not sure more Rozen will be good for plot consistency.

But there's another thought. We may see some more animated dolls, not Rozen Maiden ones. After all, Rozen and Enju are not the only ones capable of making animated dolls - Ouverture is especially revealing about this. That's yet another potential plotline.
Well, at least I wanna know why did he wanted them to fight each other,,,
without explanation I can only think that he is selfish and just wanna have perfect girl for himself... but lol that is really weird idea...
And other dolls?..... Hmmm.. I think that would ruin it -_-.. somehow....

Lav

2007-08-31, 07:59

Well I didn't meant it like I want her to be EXATCLY like in manga...
Only condition is that she wouldn't be the "good one"..
After all, she is my favourite character because I like her personality...
Of course she's going to be an antagonist. I'm just opposed to the idea of seeing "let's all play Alice Game" line again. Apart from that, Kira is welcome to create all kinds of problems to other dolls. :-)

Lol now that's funny idea.. And yeah I already said it... 5th ep is always the funny one... But lol.. Megu has sick heart so its acutally impossible...
Sick heart does not prevent Megu from going out the window and running all around the garden in the hospital so that's not an excuse. And the doctors didn't even notice she was gone from her room, so there's nothing attached to her except IV. This does not match with the image of a girl who will die the moment she steps away from her bed.

Megu is sick and probably doomed, but she is not disabled.

And also I don't think that turning Suigintou into funny character would be good...
Turning her into a comical character - please never.

Putting her into a comical situation - now I'm all for it.

And other dolls?..... Hmmm.. I think that would ruin it -_-.. somehow....
Other dolls don't have to play any major role in the scenario - but I want to see them. They must exist considering what we've seen in Ouverture. And there are plenty of doors to N-Fields as far as we know - definitely too many for seven Rozen Maiden dolls we know about.

•••Shadow•••

2007-08-31, 08:11

Of course she's going to be an antagonist. I'm just opposed to the idea of seeing "let's all play Alice Game" line again. Apart from that, Kira is welcome to create all kinds of problems to other dolls. :-)
Exactly. It would be weird to say again "soo.. blah blah.. lets settlle it once and for all.. blah blah.... ".. Kira would come with a lot of other big problems :D

Sick heart does not prevent Megu from going out the window and running all around the garden in the hospital so that's not an excuse. And the doctors didn't even notice she was gone from her room, so there's nothing attached to her except IV. This does not match with the image of a girl who will die the moment she steps away from her bed.

Megu is sick and probably doomed, but she is not disabled.
Lol, sure i know she is not disabled :D.
But it's just I don't really want Megu to meet up with others...
Even tho I don't care about Suigintou and Megu's relation ship how I used to..I still think it wouldnt be good

Turning her into a comical character - please never.

Putting her into a comical situation - now I'm all for it.
Lol, sure ok... But not in one whole episode...
Maybe only once or for extreme two times... But thats enough.

Other dolls don't have to play any major role in the scenario - but I want to see them. They must exist considering what we've seen in Ouverture. And there are plenty of doors to N-Fields as far as we know - definitely too many for seven Rozen Maiden dolls we know about.
I still think that it wouldnt be good.. more dools... thats just... weird..
it would be like massive battle between dolls... omg...

Claymore_Obsessed

2007-08-31, 09:58

maybe Shinku & friends could also meet Megu at the hospital ?

(even if I don't know why they would do that... to investigate on Gin-sama's medium? to discuss a cease-fire? )

other ways to become Alice could be that every doll has to fulfill the destiny...

Anyways I'd be happy as long as they give us more Suigintou and Suiseiseki ;)

Aoz

2007-08-31, 18:42

Sick heart does not prevent Megu from going out the window and running all around the garden in the hospital so that's not an excuse. And the doctors didn't even notice she was gone from her room, so there's nothing attached to her except IV. This does not match with the image of a girl who will die the moment she steps away from her bed.

Megu is sick and probably doomed, but she is not disabled.

Mmhm... thats how it might seem, i have a little theory though.

We've never actually "seen" Megu go anywhere, the times she was out of bed, she was in the church but we never actually saw her walking there. I think the church might acually be in N-Field, created either by Gin or Rozen. To give/get Gin a Medium she could "connect" with.

Or ...

Gin was as we all know destroyed in Season 1 and was rebuilt by Rozen, and since Mediums have (at least for all other dolls but Gin) always been their primary source of power maybe a medium was needed as the last piece process of making Gin a complete Doll again.

That was sorta what i was thinking.. hard to make words out of my thoghts :heh:

Gin will probably be more neutral now, i doubt she will be "friends" with Shinku & Co (at least from the start) though. Gin's highest wish now will probably be to save Megu and while Bara was probably just lying, gathering all the Rosae Mysticas is the only way she know now that might save Megu, and Megu doesn't have all the time in the world so if things take to long i expect she still might go after the other Dolls.

That would be pretty boring IMO. Yet another Evil Doll with the same agenda? We have seen that in S1 with Gin and in S2 with Bara, it's an old trick already.

Kara should have some new trick up her sleeve. For example, she could try running her own version of the Resurrection Project - for her own goals (whatever those are).

Yeah i somewhat agree although if Gin becomes friends or neutral(and i hope she does), then there won't be any "antagonist" Doll left, would be hard to make it really interesting without someone chasing them sort of. :eyebrow: But yeah i agree that another Bara (ie. "let's all play Alice Game" line again") would be a bit boring now.

•••Shadow•••

2007-09-01, 05:19

We've never actually "seen" Megu go anywhere, the times she was out of bed, she was in the church but we never actually saw her walking there. I think the church might acually be in N-Field, created either by Gin or Rozen. To give/get Gin a Medium she could "connect" with.

Or ...

Gin was as we all know destroyed in Season 1 and was rebuilt by Rozen, and since Mediums have (at least for all other dolls but Gin) always been their primary source of power maybe a medium was needed as the last piece process of making Gin a complete Doll again.

Lol now that's some funny ideas :D
I would never think of something like that..

And yeah.. It would be really bad if Suigintou becomes "good"...
I mean, like she will be friends with Shinku or even worse - with Jun.
Anyway, it looks like Suigintou finally accepted that she like Megu just like (or probably even more) than her Father... And because she may become good, she may also wanna stop Alice Game..

Lav

2007-09-03, 03:04

Mmhm... thats how it might seem, i have a little theory though.

We've never actually "seen" Megu go anywhere, the times she was out of bed, she was in the church but we never actually saw her walking there. I think the church might acually be in N-Field, created either by Gin or Rozen. To give/get Gin a Medium she could "connect" with.
Nurses in the hospital were talking about that church even before Megu actually went there. And we saw Bara sending light signals from the church which Megu could see from her window, and then we saw her in the hospital garden, walking towards the church, and then inside the church. I do not think Megu can teleport, so yes, she can walk perfectly well.

Yeah i somewhat agree although if Gin becomes friends or neutral(and i hope she does), then there won't be any "antagonist" Doll left, would be hard to make it really interesting without someone chasing them sort of. :eyebrow: But yeah i agree that another Bara (ie. "let's all play Alice Game" line again") would be a bit boring now.
Even if Suigintou is no longer a direct threat, there's still Kara. The only question is to give her some goal that will get her to clash with other dolls.

And there's Laplace as well. Shinku once threatened to tear his tail off. I suspect that even the most fanatic Shinku-haters will calm down a bit once they see her fulfilling her promise. :-)

•••Shadow•••

2007-09-03, 06:40

But everyone don't forget that Kira was in Träumend...
With Laplace... And they both gave Rosa Mystias to dolls.. Well except Hina and Souseiseki......
That's what always confuses me..

kamikazex

2007-09-03, 10:33

so i just watched the last ep of season 2 and i dont really get it. soo in the end all but 2 revive and it ends? kinda crap ending compared to first season

•••Shadow•••

2007-09-03, 10:57

imo, the end in first season was unforgivable ^^.
If there wouldn't be träumend i would go kill the creators ^^.
Well but I can't say that end in second was the best...
We all (i think) hope for 3rd season ^^

the.Merines

2007-09-03, 11:12

so i just watched the last ep of season 2 and i dont really get it. soo in the end all but 2 revive and it ends? kinda crap ending compared to first season

Yes, they purposefully left the ending ambiguous (and open to the possibility of a new season). Peach-Pit had Zombie Loan this summer, Shugo Chara this fall... What next? Either a new anime series or the story will re-start in another publication... but I have the awful feeling that they may wait a long while before doing either one.

archy_7

2007-09-05, 10:49

i threw this question in the air somewhere else, and no one wanted to discuss, but what ever...

what if, in series 3... megu dies?

as morbid as that idea is, she does have a life threatening illness, and that is what she wants... but what will happen to gin if she does?

as for the whole kira thing, first, i'd like to see her take out enju... i'd like to see her kill the upstart who tried to duplicate her, as if bara could ever compare to the real thing... but aside from that, i really can't see where they can go with her story... other than, a rerun of traumend with her taking bara's spot...

unless, they really drop the hammer... and have her killing off the lesser dolls one by one covertly... until it's her with 5 rosa mystica VS shinku and gin... i doubt gin would ally with her after what happened with bara, even though the manga says that kira is gin's biggest fangirl... the manga didn't have bara... and gin wouldn't risk megu by teaming up with someone who's just going to screw her over (again)...

personally, i'd like to see shinku and gin, begrudgedly being forced to team up, to take on kira... really they could stretch that fight out over 3 episodes... then finally, when kira is downed... shinku reveals the alternate method of becoming alice, but gives it to gin, and then returns the rosa mystica to all the other dolls after gin has become alice (come on, after overture, it's plainly obvious who deserves it more... shinku may be the goldern child in series one, but really, gin has earned it more) but because of her kindness, she gets to meet father anyways...

so it works out for the best, gin becomes complete, shinku gets to meet father... desu can go back to living and crushing on jun, boku can go back to live with gramps, hina gets unyuu, kana gets friction burns from michan, kira can... er... oh yeah, she can go back home and make scary faces to herself in the mirror (i dunno what psychotic dolls do for fun, so sue me)... laplace can go on a holiday to australia and get arrested in queensland for being a rabbit (rabbits are banned as pets in QLD FYI) enju can buy some supa glue to stick bara back together... and jun and nori can have that incestuous wedding that norri has been fantasising about... and every one lives happily ever after... the end... :D (p.s. i'm kidding... ... ... ... ... they'd just shoot laplace on sight for being a pest in queensland, they don't arrest rabbits... :p)

p.s. has anyone heard any news, at all, about who is going to play either megu or kana in the english dub of rozen maiden traumend...? i'd really like to know who's going to be playing my two favourite characters from series 2...

•••Shadow•••

2007-09-05, 11:28

OMFG! XD.. I lol'd so much while reading that that I almost choke to death XD...
Well where should I start...

Megu dies?.... please no... "and that is what she wants" .... You said Megu is one of your fav. chars... Well then... You still didn't notice that she also want to be with Suigintou? .... No I don't mean like love... But she likes her... I'm not saying that she alredy forgot about that "i wanna die" ... But just like Suigintou started to cae about Megu.. Megu (well she started it long ago) care about Suigintou...

About Enju and Bara... hmmm.. I really have no idea what role should they play in next season.... Kira have to appear for sure (Kira go-go! yay ^^)...

"then finally, when kira is downed" .. somehow... i didn't like that :( .. Kiraaa :( ..Yeah if she'll appear she will be the "bad" one in the 3rd season,, But I don't want her to die :(...

"so it works out for the best, gin becomes complete, shinku gets to meet father... desu can go back to living and crushing on jun, boku can go back to live with gramps, hina gets unyuu, kana gets friction burns from michan, kira can... er... oh yeah, she can go back home and make scary faces to herself in the mirror (i dunno what psychotic dolls do for fun, so sue me)..." - even tho this was extremely funny I don't agree with everything... except those Sui's crushing on Jun.. Not that I like but looks like she like it.

And eng dub? ..... yuck :(

archy_7

2007-09-05, 20:44

•••Shadow•••

2007-09-05, 21:01

well it's going to have to happen... if they make a series 3, and kira is in it, she's going to have to be the bad guy... at the end of traumend she has 3 rosa mystica and i doubt she'd just give 2 of those back (tho it was dodgy that laplace just gave them to her (isn't he sposed to be something like an impatial judge of the alice game?)... unless, there is some revelation that she was pulling the strings in traumend, and as such, she earns them... tho i don't know how that could work)...
Yes sadly I must agree.. But I don't think Kira would be killed... Just defeated... (I guess I think it just because it's my fav. char.)....
And yeah Laplace is really nice character (one of my favourites)...
I wonder where and how Rozen met him XD...

regardless of what happens, it'll have to be different than with bara... otherwise i simply could not believe that shinku and gin would fall for it again... maybe she could apear as shinku's friend and live with the others for a time before taking the rosa mystica of (for example, since she's probably the most expendable, and least capable of defending herself (god bless her)...) kana without anyone else seeing it and blaming gin for it, further instigating the hatred between gin and shinku...

gin and shinku start getting into a battle royal (each under the impression, the other took kana's rosa mystica), and then lo and behold, desu goes missing... they find her later on, defeated, and then kira finally reveals herself as who she really is... altho, it of course would be no secret to anyone who has done the littlest of research on her... so i'm not sure if the "i'm a good girl" thing would work with an audience watching it (it'd be more like "are you stupid shinku... she's the bad guy, i mean duh!"...)

Sounds intresting.. Where do you even get good ideas like that?
You could even make fan-fic ^^... Well I really don't know..
But psycho character like her act like she's good? And at the top of all, she is Suigintou's "fangirl" how you called it... But well who knows... Kira is Kira :).

I just finished re-watching first season (hmm.. And I really found out intresting ideas about it... but too lazy to post them)
And I'm about to watch Träumend... But no matter how I look at it, Megu wanted both.. She was confused.. Just like Suigintou... But I wonder what kind of life would it be if they would stay together lol.... Like.. Megu always lying in her bed saying "When will you finally take my life?" "I'll do what I want" . etc etc..... lol.... hmmm.... when I think of this.... Megu could just get better :D...
another reason i think gin should become alice... what if, megu does die, but gin can give up her place as alice, and save her life...? gin gives up her dream of becoming the perfect doll, and seeing father to save her medium? i think that would be a nice gesture.
I tried to imagine this..... Like .... Suigintou would defeat everyone but.. umm..
I kinda.. There is missing someone.... Kira -_- .... I KNOW!!!!!
SHE COULD BE WITH MEGU AND SUIGINTOU ^______________________^...
Lol, why didn't I think of something like that before?....
But lol... Megu have to cure.... -.- ... Dunno how.... But it would be weird if Suigintou and Kira would just stay all in that room just talking lol..... ok htis is all weird XD....

and come on, the english dub isn't THAT bad... it's just different...
Maybe it's because my motherlanguage isn't english but..... I HATE ENGLISH.. -_- .... and dubs even more... jesus christ... live actions. subs.... that's just all horrible.... especcialy dubs for hentai ... omfg... "YEAH FU*K ME BI*CH!! OOOH YEAH" *throwing up* .... -_____-..... really...... no thanks......

archy_7

2007-09-06, 01:52

yeah i will agree there... hentai dubs usually are shocking... porn actors aren't noted for their thespian skills in vocal articulation... :p

the thing with kira, is now that bara has been and gone, i really can't see gin trusting anyone again... she'd go totally 'lone wolf' on everyone... and if kira came anywhere near megu, gin'd go off like a frog in a sock... gin's motivations in traumend shifted to saving megu's life, and then bara screwed her over... so i don't think they could write a convincing story where gin is once again teamed up with someone who is ultimatly going to try and eat her... (no wait... that was hina wasn't it... mmmm strawberry /drool :p...

another idea, what if enju comes back? he didn't really die in traumend, he just disapeared... i wouldn't at all be surprised if he did come back... tho as i said earlier... kira needs to kill him off... maybe that could be how kira gets a material body... by killing enju and taking the broken remains of bara... altho that would mean she's made up of inferior parts, but seeing as beggers can't be choosers... plus hina (tastes like chicken!) is locked in her box, so it wouldn't be easy for her to get hina's body... unless, laplace does something of course...

god dammit... i wish they'd just hurry up and start making series 3... all these ideas and theories, so much different stuff could happen...

•••Shadow•••

2007-09-06, 09:11

Well I don't really like hentai but once one person reccomed me a a hentai with "good story" (eeh.. it was bible black btw...) .... so i watched it (in english)....
and Ill better wont comment what have I done to that person....

Yeah all these theories are pointless when it could be totally different XD....
But I still can't even imagine episode where is Kira and Bara at the same time... It's just kind of weird...... And wouldn't it be stupid if Enju and Bara got killed by Kira?... I mean yeah it is kind of good idea but..... Somehow... weird.....
And who knows.... Kira may have already gained material body.... She got 2 Rosa Mysticas after all :D .... Or Laplace have them?..
Anyway I have totally forgot about one character who I even don't know because I can't speak japanese so I can't read manga...
Who is that former Hina master? (sorry for ba english.... I don't really know what that means I just heard it somewhere)...... You know that blonde girl or whoever it is.... Wait I chceked Wikipedia..... So Corinne Fosse was Hina's master before Tomoe... right.... And about that girl...
"Odille Fosse (オディール・フォッセー, Odīru Fossē?) is Corinne's granddaughter. Kirakishou called her "Master" and even gave her a rose ring, but it has not yet been definitively stated if she truly is Kirakishou's medium."
Now I really didn't knew that (AND I CALL MYSELF A KIRAKISHOU FAN?!?!?)...
Yeah but PEACH-PIT is now working on ZOMBIE-LOAN so..... ahh.... :( ....

EDIT:
I've jist re-watched eps 9-12 of Träumend...
Hmm... Well some may like Suigintou because of her sad past.
But what about Kirakishou?.. Maybe she wasn't so "psycho" before....
But she may be like that because she was alone for long time.... Always in N-Field...
Well but I don't know if there's anything about Kira's past in manga...

So... Laplace took Hina and Souseiseki's Rosa Mysticae.. Kira was in front of him while her rose eye was going out...
....Hmmm... I really wonder what's going to be in 3rd season