Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime? [Archive] - Page 12

Sinta

2008-04-09, 19:33

Yeah, I edited it. I recalled he stated that he'd been following Chad's reiatsu throguhout the SS arc, before he felt him go down. However, still:

Just reiatsu sensing that she was not dying of injuries isn't enough. For all he knew, she could be a prisoner of espada who were torturing her. BeachOd made a similar point about chad's injury in Hm earlier. Even if Ichigo could sense that Chad wasn't going to die from his injuries........he was still lying helpless and defeated in a land of hollows.

But anyway, knowing how Ichigo works, I think it's pretty safe to assume he found out (probably from being told the captains had come to save his friends) that Rukia and his friends were fine. Although like Miguel-lou points out, they never showed him realize she was safe "on-panel"......I'm still going to assume it.

Not to quibble with your conclusion sinta (which I agree with)...Sinta, you do realize Zaraki told him that Karakura had been evacuated ? (That split-scene of the captains filling everyone in). After that, Ichigo mentioned Orihime (not Rukia), so Karakura is really a non-factor in this discussion. Although I'd agree with you on him probably knowing Rukia is safe, but am just nitpicking one weak point of your argument.

I've take enough time of everyone here today.........so thanks for the patience and goodnight :). It's been fun as always.

No need to apologize, its not any fun if everyone agrees.

Ichigo fully intended to go to Rukia then Ulq stopped him. After the Grimm fight, he was going to go after both. Nori interrupted him. There wasn't anything he could do at that point. Kenpachi came in and saved him. We know Ichigo can sense people so he could probably sense Byukuya and Rukia's return to normal health. ichigo was planning on going to her while she lay defeated, he just couldn't. When he was finally in a position to help it was no longer needed. Simple.

I think Ichigo is very good at sensing spiritual pressure. Go back to the very beginning of the manga when he was trying to find the kid's soul in the bird. Also look at the scene where he chases down rukia who had little or no spiritual pressure. I would say its save to say that he's good at it regardless.

Zaraki might have told Ichigo this but that wasn't until after Ichigo was freaking out about Aizen. I still think the argument stands at least until the information is passed.

miguelou

2008-04-09, 19:39

I think Ichigo is very good at sensing spiritual pressure. Go back to the very beginning of the manga when he was trying to find the kid's soul in the bird. Also look at the scene where he chases down rukia who had little or no spiritual pressure. I would say its save to say that he's good at it regardless.

Zaraki might have told Ichigo his but that wasn't until after Ichigo was freaking out about Aizen. I still think the argument stands at least until the information is passed.

agree with the second but don't agree with the first

Ichigo and zaraki are the worst in sensing reiatsu. that's why IchiIshi moments are funny because Ishida always annoy Ichigo about his poor senses abilities ^^

Sinta

2008-04-09, 19:54

agree with the second but don't agree with the first

Ichigo and zaraki are the worst in sensing reiatsu. that's why IchiIshi moments are funny because Ishida always annoy Ichigo about his poor senses abilities ^^

Those scenes I mentioned would indicate otherwise. Don't get me wrong he's not the best one there is, but the evidence is plain enough for us to infer that Rukia was ok thus negating the original argument. I think that Ichigo is poor at using his spirit pressure that is what ishida gives him a hard time about. (though i do think that Ishida is better at sensing as well)

miguelou

2008-04-09, 20:14

I think Ishida is the best sensing reiatsu, and we cann't asure if ichigo could sense if rukia was healed or not ^^ that's why this is a forum so we can share ideas but some times pp here (including my self) start to make unpleasant posts.

ForgedGlory

2008-04-09, 20:28

All I have to say is watch episode 166.

miguelou

2008-04-09, 20:55

yeah, a good one i must say ^^

Warchef

2008-04-09, 21:11

All I have to say is watch episode 166.

Nothing special.

ForgedGlory

2008-04-09, 21:18

Nothing special.

That statement right there just shows how much of a grudge you have against Orihime.

Warchef

2008-04-09, 21:20

That statement right there just shows how much of a grudge you have against Orihime.

More like how little I think of the IchiHime pairing, it has nothing to do with Orihime as a character.

Sinta

2008-04-09, 21:20

166 doesn't change inoue's position. Its information we already have.

Edit: that being said it really is a good episode; from the art to the music. Very impressed.

ForgedGlory

2008-04-09, 21:41

Ichigo was in turmoil over Inoue's reaction, her words and tears gave him renewed strength. Even Nell knew what was going on. At first she was like, he was always kicking ass with the mask, but why now? why is he losing? then looks at Orihime then BAM, knew right away, Ichigo was in pain because of Orihime, and she knew the only way Ichigo would revive from his slump is if Inoue snaps out of it.

I didn't think I needed to spell that out.

Sinta

2008-04-09, 21:44

She was the one that jacked him up by being scared in the first place. There is nothing to say that Ichigo's reaction is special to inoue. Just because he cheered him on and makes a come back doesn't mean he has feelings for her. There is nothing to imply that. Also take into consideration that nothing changes after the fight he treats her the exact same then the argument becomes much weaker.

Warchef

2008-04-09, 21:45

ForgedGlory

2008-04-09, 23:23

Of course, she's his nakama. And as Shinji said, his friends would gradually abandon him as they found out about his hollow side. So naturally, when Orihime saw Ichigo's mask, it scared her half to death. In response, Ichigo felt that Shinji's words were gradually becoming true, so when Orihime finally wizened up and gave him words of encouragement, he gained resolve. Don't see why IchiHime fans think that it's romantic in any way.

again with the double standards, I'm starting to question if you even watched this episode. I'm not even going to bother wasting words if you anymore, you're waving your Rukia flag a little too hard and not seeing whats actually happening.

Langus

2008-04-10, 00:28

166 is on my short list of best Bleach eps ever. It was well worth the wait.

I couldn't help but notice though that they've really catered to Ichi/Orihime shippers in that one. That's NOT how shit goes down in the manga...or at least the manga doesn't imply there is even remotely that much emotional connection between them in that scene. Shame on you TVTokyo...

miguelou

2008-04-10, 01:01

^^ you're right there, in the manga isn't this sentimental thought I almost cried but in the anime was more deeper than manga ^^

Sinta

2008-04-10, 07:55

again with the double standards, I'm starting to question if you even watched this episode. I'm not even going to bother wasting words if you anymore, you're waving your Rukia flag a little too hard and not seeing whats actually happening.

There is no double standard here. You say that alot. I see no double standard to speak of. He sees the same thing that you are, he just doesn't ignore the other factors that go into an interpretation. Ichigo finally reacting to inoue does not mean he's in love with her. Sorry most people don't place that meaning. Fear, its been Ichigo running theme since the start of the arch. It's what Shinji, Ichigo's Hollow Kenpachi and Grimm have beening talking about. Being true to one self and fear. Inoue imbodied that fear. She was scare of him so it was up to her to snap him out of it. There is nothing that says that Ichigo's reaction was special to inoue. We get no comments about how he feels about her or the like. Try understanding what he's saying.

blue skies

2008-04-10, 07:58

Am I wrong in thinking that Ichigo would have had the exact same response if ANY of his "nakama" reacted the way Orihime did? I don't understand why people think it's so romantic. What's happening, is Ichigo suddenly falling for Orihime because she encouraged him after being scared senseless? Sorry, I don't see it. And after the fight, there's nothing really special between them that makes me go "OMG OMG OMG THEY'RE IN LOVVVEEEEE!!11!!!". That's not to discredit the interaction they did have, though-I just don't see it as romantic. :)

If Kubo really wants to pair Ichigo with Inoue, it's too little, too late IMO. It'd be totally unbelievable and seem completely fake.

morgus

2008-04-10, 08:01

I think her words for ichigo and that whole scene was more to help her than it was to help ichigo. So I don's see how that is an ichihime moment.

cheesie

2008-04-10, 08:13

There is no double standard here. You say that alot. I see no double standard to speak of. He sees the same thing that you are, he just doesn't ignore the other factors that go into an interpretation. Ichigo finally reacting to inoue does not mean he's in love with her. Sorry most people don't place that meaning. Fear, its been Ichigo running theme since the start of the arch. It's what Shinji, Ichigo's Hollow Kenpachi and Grimm have beening talking about. Being true to one self and fear. Inoue imbodied that fear. She was scare of him so it was up to her to snap him out of it. There is nothing that says that Ichigo's reaction was special to inoue. We get no comments about how he feels about her or the like. Try understanding what he's saying.

As someone who's not wearing IchiRuki or IchiHime glasses, hmm, I have to agree with the above. However I can understand why you guys are shipping the scene, it's a -moment-, while certainly not romantic nor has anything to do with love whatsoever, it's still a -moment-, and moments like these are similar to what I thrive on with my own pairings who has no substantial basis whatsoever. (By the way, the last dig was really not aimed at you IchiHime fans at all, it just means I get whatever I could possibly get.)

Sinta

2008-04-10, 09:19

I think its a moment. I don't think that can be taken away from Inoue. This is a moment that improves her chances (even a bit) and something that can be taken into consideration in understanding their relationship potential, but it does not tell us anything about love. Just understanding.

Warchef

2008-04-10, 11:18

again with the double standards, I'm starting to question if you even watched this episode. I'm not even going to bother wasting words if you anymore, you're waving your Rukia flag a little too hard and not seeing whats actually happening.

No, there isn't a double standard about it. I saw the episode. I've read the inclusive manga chapters, and it doesn't appear romantic. Ichigo's reactions are more in line with what Shinji and others had told him about his Hollow side: That his friends would gradually come to fear him and abandon him (which scared the crap out of him btw) and now that he knows Inoue doesn't fear him anymore, he gains resolve and tips the tables on the fight against Grimmjow. There was nothing "romantic" about the episode.

If KT plans on putting Ichigo and Inoue together, that is a horrible thing to do as a writer. They have had nearly no interaction whatsoever before this arc. It wouldn't make sense romantically, and it would make the romance seem fake and set up. It's stupid imo.

ForgedGlory

2008-04-10, 13:34

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-10, 14:02

Dang I didn't know there's so many Ichi x Ruki people. They always had cute moments but I never really thought that they had romantic moments. To me they were like siblings- beter than friends but less than lovers type of relationship. However, I really think that Ichigo likes fighting more than women. He chose to fight Byakuya instead of saving rukia. He chose to fight grimmjow instead of saving Orihime.

edit: Also I thought it was pretty clear a long time ago that they are going for Ichi x Hime just by looking at Bleach OP 6. I looked at it as foreshadowing of upcoming manga chapters.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-10, 14:37

Dang I didn't know there's so many Ichi x Ruki people.

How could you not? It's the most popular hetero pairing in Bleach.

He chose to fight Byakuya instead of saving rukia.

Looked to me like he already saved Rukia before his fight with Byakuya though. And he knew he would have to fight to get them out of here. And the entire fight he was trying to get Byakuya to change his mind about executing Rukia.

As he said in 152. His plan was to run and if someone was to get in their way they beat them up and then run. Though Renji provided a good means to get Rukia out of their and away from her brother.

So for the most part, he'd already saved Rukia and just needed to ensure she stayed safe by beating Byakuya.

miguelou

2008-04-10, 14:37

Sinta

2008-04-10, 14:57

It is a double standard. Sorry everyone but there was virtually zero IchiRukia moments in the S.S. Arc as they only saw each other twice, and both times were only for a few seconds, and both times she yells at him for being there and both times he tells her to shut up and her opinions means nothing. But, Rukia shippers like to make the arc more than it is. Rukia fit the bill for the term emo more than any other character in the series. Her "I deserve to die, I'm not worth saving, blah blah blah" she's borderline suicidal.

You seem to be having a hard time with the definition.

double standard

noun
An ethical or moral code that applies more strictly to one group than to another

The only way you can have the a double standard is if you have the exact same or very close circumstances then apply a set standard of rules differently. This is where you are getting confused, it isn't a double standard its a different in a opinion on interpretations of importance of various evidentiary issues and details. The Ichigo/rukia and ichigo inoue/scenes are distinguishable enough to say they have different meanings and conclusions. I see something different in both scenes because of the details and factors involved not because I am misapplying a certain standard. If that is the case, then there is not double standard. On a side note, in fact, according to your definition and misunderstanding you are using a double standard as what you are accusing (Warchef for example) of is exactly what you are doing. This is why it’s a silly argument and allegation. There are similarities in the scenes with Ichigo/rukia and ichigo/Inoue, but they aren't exactly the same. You and others are disagreeing on those differences. That is where the argument lies; stop talking about a double standard and start talking about the details.

There is more happening in the Ichigo and Rukia scenes in SS; your comment about the bridge scene is trying to boil the interaction down to the most shallow elements possible. But remember, You can do the exact same thing with the inoue scenes. its silly to do this, we both know that there is more going on. This confuses the actual issues being discussed.

Of course Rukia shippers are going to discard this episode to be a Ichihime moment, it makes their mind rest in ease. Rewatch the episode, pay close attention to Ichigo's reactions to Orihime. Everytime he looks at Orihime, he looked like he was going to shed manly tears, Orihime's fears are well justified, the last time she saw someone she loved had that Hollow mask, he tried to kill her. Seeing it again will of course bring back those memories.

first of all Ichigo does not look he's about to cry. If you want to talk about tender looks go back to 213. that is an example of a tender look. There is nothing even close to that look in the HM arc manga chapters.

Inoue being scared may or may not be justified. It doesn't matter. It’s not relevant to whether Ichigo displays feelings beyond friendship for her. Rukia/ichigo shippers don't disregard it, they just don't believe it has the significances you do and your analysis hasn't convinced them otherwise. There are too many other factors to consider. I will repeat, there is no change in Ichigo behavior towards her after the fight, she was the one who screwed him up in the first place, it would make sense her words would affect him, there is nothing to indicate that Ichigo reaction (losing in a fight because his friend is scared of him; just like Shinji said) is special to inoue. There lies the weakness of your argument. You want to overcome the weakness you need to overcome those points.

The episode doesn't mean anything in the grand scale as its different then the manga.

At 20:41 when she softly said "Don't die", he magically heard her from far away, then When she yells it out loud. It is portrayed that Orihime was Ichigo's ray of hope. Her words afterwards impacted Ichigo greatly. The rukia shippers are purposely ignoring Ichigo's reaction and playing it off as unimportant. But, theres a reason why his reaction is that way. But hey, no one is twisting your arm to believe it. Even the neutral people in the episode discussion are saying that this last scene was emotionally powerful. The shippers can shrug it off all they want, it won't change what it is.

I repeat, her words impacted him because it was her reaction that hurt him. This does not translate to romantic affection. There is a reason Ichigo has this reaction, which is true, the reason he has this reaction is because of Shinji's words. Not because Ichigo holds special regard for Inoue. (He would probably have a similar reactions to rukia) Saying that its because of inoue, with no indication otherwise, is pure speculation.

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-10, 15:07

How could you not? It's the most popular hetero pairing in Bleach.

Looked to me like he already saved Rukia before his fight with Byakuya though. And he knew he would have to fight to get them out of here. And the entire fight he was trying to get Byakuya to change his mind about executing Rukia.

As he said in 152. His plan was to run and if someone was to get in their way they beat them up and then run. Though Renji provided a good means to get Rukia out of their and away from her brother.

So for the most part, he'd already saved Rukia and just needed to ensure she stayed safe by beating Byakuya.

He is faster than Byakuya in Bangkai mode, he could have ran if he wanted to. Grimmjow is faster than him, it is not possible to run away from him.

I really don't think he would throw rukia the way he did to renji if he had romantic feelings for her.

Sinta

2008-04-10, 15:13

He is faster than Byakuya in Bangkai mode, he could have ran if he wanted to. Grimmjow is faster than him, it is not possible to run away from him.

I really don't think he would throw rukia the way he did to renji if he had romantic feelings for her.

So he was suppose to fight while holding her? Come now, thats just silly.

Edit: Ishida explains why ichigo is fighting. the only way to save rukia was to fight Byukuya. it wasn't about winning be eliminating the will to kill her.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-10, 15:19

He is faster than Byakuya in Bangkai mode, he could have ran if he wanted to. Grimmjow is faster than him, it is not possible to run away from him.

I really don't think he would throw rukia the way he did to renji if he had romantic feelings for her.

And what would running from Byakuya prove? Ichigo said again and again that he would defeat Byakuya, "Stomp on the pride" that would make him want to execute her.

Rukia really would not be safe until Byakuya changed. He said he would execute her himself if he got to her.

And Ichigo knew she'd be safer if she got away from Byakuya until his mind was changed so he threw her to Renji and kept Byakuya busy.

So I would say letting Renji take her is neither really for or against him having feelings for her. But I would definately say he saved (or at least made sure she'd be safe) before he started fighing Byakuya. Not that he abandoned her for some kicks like you seem to be implying.

ForgedGlory

2008-04-10, 15:20

Royal_Devil

2008-04-10, 15:36

Downplaying Ichigo's reactions is an insult to Kubo, theres a reason why he chose Inoue, the words and the reactions.

It could be argued that dismissing the forshadowing Kubo wanted to evoke with Shinji's warning to Ichigo and the overarching stuggles Ichigo's been having with his powers is just as disrespectful.

Honestly, we I read the chapter and someone pointed out what Shinji had said in earlier chapters I praized Kubo on thinking so far ahead with that and making it play such a big role.

Oh but preffering that interpretation over true love means I have" double standards." sorry

Scarlett_Rain55

2008-04-10, 15:50

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-10, 15:51

And what would running from Byakuya prove? Ichigo said again and again that he would defeat Byakuya, "Stomp on the pride" that would make him want to execute her.

Rukia really would not be safe until Byakuya changed. He said he would execute her himself if he got to her.

And Ichigo knew she'd be safer if she got away from Byakuya until his mind was changed so he threw her to Renji and kept Byakuya busy.

So I would say letting Renji take her is neither really for or against him having feelings for her. But I would definately say he saved (or at least made sure she'd be safe) before he started fighing Byakuya. Not that he abandoned her for some kicks like you seem to be implying.

No, I'm saying he is more interested in fighting grimmjow and byakuya instead of saving the women.

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-10, 15:53

So he was suppose to fight while holding her? Come now, thats just silly.

Edit: Ishida explains why ichigo is fighting. the only way to save rukia was to fight Byukuya. it wasn't about winning be eliminating the will to kill her.

No I'm saying, he wouldn't throw someone that he is romantically interested to like that. He could have just used flash step and gave rukia gently to renji but he chose to throw her like a basketball.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-10, 16:05

No, I'm saying he is more interested in fighting grimmjow and byakuya instead of saving the women.

But why was he so interested in fighting Byakuya? From what he was saying during the battle, it sounded like he wanted him to learn the error of wanting to kill his own sister. I believe you think he was doing it out of pure battle lust or a desire for payback correct?

And I still contend he had already saved Rukia by then. I think we disagree in that "saving" to you means carrying her away himself and to me it simply means making sure she is out of immediate harms way no matter the means (which she was).

Sinta

2008-04-10, 16:06

It is a double standard, Don't try to make it like it isn't. If it was Rukia, you would be praising it, every little retarded thing that happens with Rukia is automatically shipped. But anything that involves Orihime is automatically discounted, I call that a double standard. Fact is, scenes with Orihime are more emotional. You can try to say Shinji this and that, but there was no sign of Ichigo recollecting his words, all they showed was his eyes quivering in pain. The fact that you are discounting this scene shows that you are indeed pulling a double standard. You can call me an idiot or whatever, it still doesn't change your biased reaction. You know for a fact that Rukia shippers won't be saying this garbage if she was in Orihime shoes.

You can call it what you want it doesn't make you right. Sorry you simply saying its a double standard doesn't make it true. I've given you an example of double standard and what it actual means. Ichigo and rukia's interactions are different then Ichigo/inoue's. Saying the results of those different interactions will have different outcomes is natural. That is not a double standard. There is differences in interpretation of relative scenes and the importance attached to them. This is why its a mistake to try to draw a direct comparison. There aren't directly comparable. You may not agree with those interpretations but that is not a double standard.

Inoue's scenes being more emotional is your opinion. you are allow your opinion, but so are the many people that disagree with you.

You can try to say Shinji this and that, but there was no sign of Ichigo recollecting his words, all they showed was his eyes quivering in pain.

This is exactly the point I was proving. Your argument is the same as the shinji argument. There is no signs of ichigo thinking "Inoue is upset I am in love with her, and like you point out Shinji isn't there (in his head). So what do we do? We look to the circumstances surrounding the interactoins. My interpretation is more likely for the reason I have explained to you. if you don't think that is the case give a counter analysis. Oh and I don't call you anything. I want you to use logic before you make claims. I don't think you are doing that. You are ignoring the actual definition of a double standard for one thing. You say that people automatically discount inoue scenes, I say that is not the case. I can give you a clear explanation as to how I view certain scenes. Just because someone feels that one pairing is more likely doesnt' mean I can't understand or see a good argument when i see it. You have not given me a good argument. There isn't indication that Ichgio has feelings for Inoue beyond friendship. This scene does not change that.

We can call it speculation all we want, but the fact is, theres no way to disprove it. Even if given that you replace Orihime with Chad, Ishida or even Renji, none of them will be reacting to Ichigo's transformation the way Inoue does. You know it, I know it, its not within their personalities. Hell, even Rukia wouldn't be reacting this way, therefore this scene will never occur.

You are trying to say that ichigo's reaction to inoue is indictive of someone in love is it not? I am saying that is not the case; furthermore, you don't know how people (Ichigo's other friends) would react or how ichigo would react to their reaction. If Ichigo would/does get upset because of another one of his friends fear (like inoue) there goes your argument that his reactions is special to inoue. YOu also have to consider his words about "being like grimm" and coming to "fight" and then there is the indifference he shows right after the Grimm fight. Is a boy who just realizes he loves a girl gonna just throw her over his shoulder without even thinking about it? I don't think so. How do you explain this? I am sorry but one fairly ambigeous reaction isn't enough to counter 300 chapters of romantic indifference especially when there are more plasuable explanations to ichigo's behavior. It seems to me that its a weak argument to say that Ichigo is love with inoue because of one reaction (to a problem that inoue caused for that matter)

Downplaying Ichigo's reactions is an insult to Kubo, theres a reason why he chose Inoue, the words and the reactions. Just because you can't see beyond your own bias is your problem. Even friends of mine who only watch Bleach casually and has maintained a neutral stance can see the significance of Inoue's and Ichigo's reactions.

the only person that seems to bias is you. You say that it is an insult to downplay Ichigo's reactions. Well what about all the reactions to rukia? Are you insulting him as well by ignoring those? (which I would remind that there are quite a few more of) Lets try to stay focused shall we? I take whats in front of me and make arguments biased on that. You don't know Kubo's reasons any better then I do. Its completely out of the realm of reasonable assumption to think you do. You can speculate but that doesn't make your speculation anymore valid. All we can is take the facts we have in front of us and make arguments concerning them. If we don't have evidence totally on point (like what we are discussing concerning ichigo's state of mind) then we make arguments based on circumstances. Like i have.

Oh and I'm sorry I couldn't care less what you friends say about bleach. Their opinion doesn't hold much weight with me.

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-10, 16:14

But why was he so interested in fighting Byakuya? From what he was saying during the battle, it sounded like he wanted him to learn the error of wanting to kill his own sister. I believe you think he was doing it out of pure battle lust or a desire for payback correct?

And I still contend he had already saved Rukia by then. I think we disagree in that "saving" to you means carrying her away himself and to me it simply means making sure she is out of immediate harms way no matter the means (which she was).

He chose to battle Byakuya/Grimmjow because ichigo and kenpachi are alike.

Sinta

2008-04-10, 16:21

No I'm saying, he wouldn't throw someone that he is romantically interested to like that. He could have just used flash step and gave rukia gently to renji but he chose to throw her like a basketball.

The problem with this statement is we don't have an example of how ichigo acts with a girl he likes. (that we know for sure) Now you might not throw a girl you like; but that doesn't mean ichigo wouldn't.

Chase

2008-04-10, 16:25

Non of the above, Ichigo is a homo

miguelou

2008-04-10, 16:27

kagato3

2008-04-10, 16:29

Reality check, Rukia is the heroine of Bleach. Without Rukia, there would be no storyline, Ichigo would have never gotten his powers, and he wouldn't have fallen in love with Rukia. /lol

All that does is make her a plot device not the hero. And I have yet to see anyone produce any hard proof that he is in love with Rukia or even cares for her more then a best friend. Rukia's whole roll pre SS arc was to act as the mentor for Ichigo explaining what was going on. After loseing her powers all she was was a cheerleader pointing Ichigo in the direction of the bad guys. The one time she did try to act like a hero it turned out Chad was more effective then she was. Durring the SS arc she was just the captiured princess who felt like she deseved to die. she did nothing useful to her escape the whole arc even going as far as agureing with her rescuers. Not too hero like there either. In the post SS arc she has left the mentor post and is now taken an active fighting part with the rest of the secondary leads (Ishida, Renji, Chad, and Orihime) and even the she has not gotten any more focus then any of the others.

Also, KT said he wasn't going to remove Rukia from her lead role in Bleach.

As to your second sweeping opinion, please point out these "moments" you so vigorously want to bring up, because I don't think any moment where Rukia was a "stalker" compares to Stalker Girl's confession in Chapter 237/Ep. 141
Lets see she shows up in his class and threatens to kill him (again) if he makes a scene. She moves in to his closet with out his knowlage or consent after stealing from his family, the same day. After being told point blank he wants to be left alone she follows him to the graveyard his mother is buried in. She then force her way back in to liveing in his house a second time

As for Orihime's confession that was hardy stalker like and infact it's a very common device in stories although it's mainly the male who confesses his feelings before he goes off to die on some mission that there is no chance he will be able to return from but of course more then half the time he does.

As for what happened in the most current ep. First Shinji's warning was what would happen if he did not join them because Ichigo would start to go out of control. That has been everted. Second KT stessed this in the manga vol by haveing these between the chapters
KT is drawing little thumbnail skechs showing the Grim Ichigo fight with symbols Ichigo is shown as what looks a menos with his mask on and grim is a cat. here is the one on the page right after Ichigo sees the fear of him in Orihime's eyes
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2416/082dm9.th.jpg (http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=082dm9.jpg)
and her is the one right after she tells him not to die
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6728/101ye0.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=101ye0.jpg)

War_Lord

2008-04-10, 16:58

Based on arguments from both sides of the camp, I'd say both Ori and Ruki have about the same chances of bagging Ichi. However, there are a few things that got me slightly leaning on the OrixIchi side of the fence.:

-Rukia hasn't officially declared her feelings for Ichigo. I'm not even sure if she has the same feelings for him as Ori does. The only thing that's making her a rival is the strong chemistry they show in the manga/anime. But unless more direct hints are shown that their relationship will grow into something more than close friends, I'm just gonna assume Ori has a better chance.

-Ichigo's future plans are unknown. Does he plan to have a family one day? Can Rukia have children? Will aging be a factor if Ichi and Rukia get together? These are things that gotta be answered before I can lean off the OrixIchi fence. Since Ori's a human, that definitely gives her the edge in terms of starting a family.

-Ichigo's premature answer to Renji's question about whether he has any romantic feelings for Rukia. He answered alittle too bluntly that he wasn't saving her out of any romantic feelings. But that could easily change. They already got a good head start.

Other than that, it's anyone's guess who he'll end up with (if anyone). Oh and I'm tired of people calling Ori an emo, as someone else already mentioned, Rukia acted just as emo in the S.S arc. In fact, I have a feeling Ori would be called uglier names if it was her stuck in the tower. Oh well...

Marsala

2008-04-10, 17:27

Based on arguments from both sides of the camp, I'd say both Ori and Ruki have about the same chances of bagging Ichi. However, there are a few things that got me slightly leaning on the OrixIchi side of the fence.:

-Rukia hasn't officially declared her feelings for Ichigo. I'm not even sure if she has the same feelings for him as Ori does. The only thing that's making her a rival is the strong chemistry they show in the manga/anime. But unless more direct hints are shown that their relationship will grow into something more than close friends, I'm just gonna assume Ori has a better chance.
Nine times (or more) out of ten, the love interest with the more obvious feelings loses. Usually there is a main girl and a secondary girl with the secondary girl's feelings being the most obvious. The secondary girl almost always loses.

-Ichigo's future plans are unknown. Does he plan to have a family one day? Can Rukia have children? Will aging be a factor if Ichi and Rukia get together? These are things that gotta be answered before I can lean off the OrixIchi fence. Since Ori's a human, that definitely gives her the edge in terms of starting a family.

Shinigami can have children. The Kuchiki, Shihouin and Shiba families have existed in Soul Society for many generations. They are born, live and die in Soul Society.

-Ichigo's premature answer to Renji's question about whether he has any romantic feelings for Rukia. He answered alittle too bluntly that he wasn't saving her out of any romantic feelings. But that could easily change. They already got a good head start.

It was Ganju who asked Ichigo, and he never asked about romantic feelings (a curious omission). He asked Ichigo if Rukia was an important person in general, like a princess or something.

miguelou

2008-04-10, 17:41

It was Ganju who asked Ichigo, and he never asked about romantic feelings (a curious omission). He asked Ichigo if Rukia was an important person in general, like a princess or something.

And Ichigo answer was "not really"

Marsala

2008-04-10, 17:50

And Ichigo answer was "not really"

Which was true. Rukia wasn't a particularly important person, except as a member of the Kuchiki family which had little meaning to Ichigo.

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-10, 18:06

Based on arguments from both sides of the camp, I'd say both Ori and Ruki have about the same chances of bagging Ichi. However, there are a few things that got me slightly leaning on the OrixIchi side of the fence.:

That's what I'm saying. Ichigo can end up with Orihime or Rukia however Orihime is definitely in the lead.

I still think Ichigo should go for Nel cuz Nel is hottzorrrr...

Warchef

2008-04-10, 18:14

Yes, because as we all know, the evidence from the manga supports this. Oh wait, it doesn't.

monir

2008-04-16, 16:51

Thread is reopened for business. Please don't give me another reason to close it down! :rolleyes:

BleachOD

2008-04-16, 17:00

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/amen.gif

Moni! http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/glomp.gif Don't worry...I got your back.http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/bingo2.gif
If anyone breaks a rule...they go out like this...http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/stretcher.gif

Shipping getting your nerves, eh?http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/em0111.gif

:heh:

Sinta

2008-04-16, 17:11

Bleach OD, that is a amazing. How many of those freaking graphics do you have?

Its good for the thread to be back. Its fun.

That's what I'm saying. Ichigo can end up with Orihime or Rukia however Orihime is definitely in the lead.

I still think Ichigo should go for Nel cuz Nel is hottzorrrr...

I second that

Kakashi

2008-04-16, 17:47

I find it ironic OD's got monir's back when she's usually the root cause of rule breaking :heh: just kidding you've been pretty good recently :heh: I agree Sinta she never ceases to amaze me :D. Anyway I'm exhausted right now but tomorow prepare to meet your doom everyone.

Frailty

2008-04-16, 18:46

That's what I'm saying. Ichigo can end up with Orihime or Rukia however Orihime is definitely in the lead.

I still think Ichigo should go for Nel cuz Nel is hottzorrrr...

I agree that Nel's hotter...
hey.. you'll nver know what'll happen right? :D

HayashiTakara

2008-04-16, 19:41

Yay, open for business.. now to gather my thoughts, its been too long since I posted in this thread.

X_Danny_X

2008-04-16, 19:57

why was the thread closed anyway? what rules were broken anyway? i didnt see any extreme fighting.

anyway, i am gathering my info since settling down in New York City. so i will be soon back to attack the IchiRuki shippers

Amirali

2008-04-16, 20:26

why was the thread closed anyway? what rules were broken anyway? i didnt see any extreme fighting.
Some people took the debate in this thread to the episode 166 discussion thread. Monir got annoyed at the offtopic diversion, so he closed this thread as punishment.

anyway, i am gathering my info since settling down in New York City. so i will be soon back to attack the IchiRuki shippers

Welcome to Od city :).

Kakashi

2008-04-17, 11:13

I would like to get people's views on the the IchiOri moment at the end of episode 167 of the anime. Mainly from you IchiRuki shippers but also from everyone else so that we can come to an agreement (ok maybe not that word) on how important it was, and how to take it. I think it definatly holds water and can be classified as 'evidence' for Ichigo and Orihime, but some of you might say it never happened in the manga therefore it doesn't exsist or is weak. Technically that might be correct but I wouldn't underestimate it because of that. It was the most romantic moment in the series while both persons were conscious after all. The only question for me is whether Kubo approved it, which is impossible to know for now, if so then Kubo might be thinking of taking Ichigo and Orihime further....

Most likely during Ichigo's fight agaisnt Ulquiorra, which would be the perfect opportunity.

Raktus

2008-04-17, 11:32

Didn't seem like that big a moment to me... I mean not like tears on the face moment, which was totally one sided.

UPR

2008-04-17, 13:41

Didn't seem like that big a moment to me... I mean not like tears on the face moment, which was totally one sided.

For a regular romance it might not be. But here and with what so little has happened (really only Hime almost kissing Ichi) it's a significant step forward.

HaNa-san

2008-04-17, 14:08

morgus

2008-04-17, 14:26

The hand holding scene just seemed kind of tacked on to me and I don't take it that seriously, I mean they had to start the fillers on a happy note right?

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 14:31

Didn't seem like that big a moment to me... I mean not like tears on the face moment, which was totally one sided.

It wasn't one sided, don't say things like that. Look at Ichigo's expression when she was crying for him, and listen to his voice and eyes quiver. Then afterwards the actions he took against an attacking Grimmjow, it was definately not one-sided.

A little OT, but according to some people from other forums, the Ichihime moment at the end of 167 ruined bleach forever... lol, my sides are starting to hurt. :heh:

kagato3

2008-04-17, 14:52

Other then the very last bit at the end with them holding hands that is exactly how it was in the manga. And even though it then did turn in to a bit of a comedic moment there was still the same undertone, like nel giveing dating advice

Its also bigger then any Ichigo Rukia moments so far,even without the hand holding which is a fairly big deal in Japan, the whole fight showed just how importent her feelings about him ment to Ichigo. Compare this to either of his earlier resuces of Rukia, "your opinion is rejected" and it's a long bomb to Renji, there has been in Genearal more emotion fouced at who he is rescueing then who he is rescueing them from.

Amirali

2008-04-17, 14:54

well, if we took this moment as an evidence then ichiruki would be a canon already from filler episodes :p

Which episode, which scene :S? I saw the fillers, but don't have a good memory. I do remember the borderline incestuous scene where Byakuya saved Rukia from a bounto and then held her in his arms. Freaky moment that :P. Which ichi-ruki moment from fillers are you referring?

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 15:00

don't take it seriously Amirali, Hana is grasping at straws to save sanity, lol jp

I still feel awkward saying Hana... its the same name as my Niece...

morgus

2008-04-17, 15:32

In the fillers, the bird doll girl showed jealousy a couple times towards Rukia's relationship with Ichigo. I think that's what she means.

HaNa-san

2008-04-17, 15:42

Which episode, which scene :S? I saw the fillers, but don't have a good memory. I do remember the borderline incestuous scene where Byakuya saved Rukia from a bounto and then held her in his arms. Freaky moment that :P. Which ichi-ruki moment from fillers are you referring?

There are many, like when rukia was nervous and trying to thank ichigo (for rescuing her in ss) in ishida hospital while him (ishida) trying to eavesdrop their suspecting conversation..it shows that at least rukia has an interest on ichigo..and when they arrived to ss, they were standing beside each other like a real couple till yourichi interrupted them saying that it's not the time to lost in thoughts together and the filler character ririn said " you're not a couple to stand by each other" and latest one with nell XD I think I don't have to mention it coz it's so famous .. For more information read OD awesome post again in this issue ^^ http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26391&page=124

Well, if you want to use it as an evidence go ahead..but that won't change their relationship in the manga.. I'm sure even in the anime…anime sometimes makes things out of blue then forgets about it completely just like this scene.. Not to mention the following episode will focus on ichiruki :p

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 15:44

There are many, like when rukia was nervous and trying to thank ichigo (for rescuing her in ss) in ishida hospital while him (ishida) trying to eavesdrop their suspecting conversation..it shows that at least rukia has an interest on ichigo..and when they arrived to ss, they were standing beside each other like a real couple till yourichi interrupted them saying that it's not the time to lost in thoughts together and the filler character ririn said " you're not a couple to stand by each other" and latest one with nell XD I think I don't have to mention it coz it's so famous .. For more information read OD awesome post again in this issue ^^ http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=26391&page=124

Well, if you want to use it as an evidence go ahead..but that won't change their relationship in the manga.. I'm sure even in the anime…anime sometimes makes things out of blue then forgets about it completely just like this scene.. Not to mention the following episode will focus on ichiruki :p

speculations are nice, ain't it?

HaNa-san

2008-04-17, 15:49

speculations are nice, ain't it?

say that to the anime team who made these scenes :p

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 16:15

A high profile mangaka like Kubo would have a say in the anime's production, so I take everything that happens as canon, with the exception of fillers that is. Only new low profile mangaka's are told to sit still and work.

monir

2008-04-17, 16:36

A high profile mangaka like Kubo would have a say in the anime's production, so I take everything that happens as canon, with the exception of fillers that is.
Just to make an observation that has absolutely nothing to do with this shipping argument....... That is seldom the case unfortunately. When an author sells his/her story to a company for the purpose of making certain adaptation, let it be an animated production or live action or movies, he/she is consenting to have the story used/altered however a company sees fit. Reputable animated companies usually understand the need to keep the original story unaltered for various reasons and a lot of them make every effort to stay consistent to the original story, but what is important to understand that a production company is never required to strictly follow how the original script is written by a mangka. A mangaka/author looses his/her say as soon as he/she agrees to have a said story for an adaptation in exchange for monetary compensation.

If an author wants to have no alteration to the story for any kind of adaptation, the author always has the option to produce the adaptation of any kind by him/her-self. And some author do indeed take that extra step. Kubo isn't one of them. :)

HaNa-san

2008-04-17, 16:36

then you have to consider ichiruki moments as well..however, I don't care about them, since they're not in the manga..I'm just watching fillers out of fun ^^

I agree with monir kubo is a busy man after all

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 17:01

Just to make an observation that has absolutely nothing to do with this shipping argument....... That is seldom the case unfortunately. When an author sells his/her story to a company for the purpose of making certain adaptation, let it be an animated production or live action or movies, he/she is consenting to have the story used/altered however a company sees fit. Reputable animated companies usually understand the need to keep the original story unaltered for various reasons and a lot of them make every effort to stay consistent to the original story, but what is important to understand that a production company is never required to strictly follow how the original script is written by a mangka. A mangaka/author looses his/her say as soon as he/she agrees to have a said story for an adaptation in exchange for monetary compensation.

If an author wants to have no alteration to the story for any kind of adaptation, the author always has the option to produce the adaptation of any kind by him/her-self. And some author do indeed take that extra step. Kubo isn't one of them. :)

Well, its a contract bases, theres been many times where the original artist becomes a producer for said production. Good examples from here in the states are Jim Lee, whos a producer for spider man cartoon series and movies. Depending on what the agreement is, or how the studio decides to interact with the author, its completely up in the air. High profile people tend to be more catered to, as the studio makes tons of money off of them. If they wish to continue doing business in the future, making them happy is an important prospect.

So says friends of mine who are in the business world.

Anyway, back on topic. The problem with IchiRukia moments, is that they're all interpretational, if you choose to see them as "romantic" moments, then feel free to do so. Its your interpretation.

HaNa-san

2008-04-17, 19:02

Well, its a contract bases, theres been many times where the original artist becomes a producer for said production. Good examples from here in the states are Jim Lee, whos a producer for spider man cartoon series and movies. Depending on what the agreement is, or how the studio decides to interact with the author, its completely up in the air. High profile people tend to be more catered to, as the studio makes tons of money off of them. If they wish to continue doing business in the future, making them happy is an important prospect.

So says friends of mine who are in the business world.

Anyway, back on topic. The problem with IchiRukia moments, is that they're all interpretational, if you choose to see them as "romantic" moments, then feel free to do so. Its your interpretation.

So you're just saying the filler scene that happened between ichiori considers romantic, but the other many scenes of ichiruki are not, when some of them are direct enough to understand.. ways to be so biased… I won't dare to take fillers and use them as a canon staff nor will I waste my time on scenes that are not in the original story of bleach (the manga).. say what you want.. I won't participate till we get something new from the MANGA...

We're talking about Japanese mangaka not the American one -_-' they're totally different cases..

Lost-Wisdom

2008-04-17, 19:27

If he was able to get Rukia and Orihime as the same time. Then maybe this discussion would be over as we know it :P

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 19:39

So you're just saying the filler scene that happened between ichiori considers romantic, but the other many scenes of ichiruki are not, when some of them are direct enough to understand.. ways to be so biased… I won't dare to take fillers and use them as a canon staff nor will I waste my time on scenes that are not in the original story of bleach (the manga).. say what you want.. I won't participate till we get something new from the MANGA...

We're talking about Japanese mangaka not the American one -_-' they're totally different cases..

Business works the same no matter where you are, you can't force someone to produce material for you. If you're unhappy with your employer you move on to someone else who will meet your needs. And with a cash cow like Kubo, anyone company would suckle his balls to get him to sign on.

You call it a filler "scene", I don't. I consider fillers to be the mod souls arc. If we're going to go by your idea of filler, then at least 20 mins of every episode is filler, as the freeze frame that correspond with the manga is considered "canon."

Kubo has less than one week to release a chapter, theres a good possibility that he didn't get to do things he wanted to, or wish he did. And instead move it over to the anime. Just a possibility.

BleachOD

2008-04-17, 20:40

HT you can't call it non filler if it's emo-stalker-girl and filler for Rukia. It can't be both ways it's filler or canon. Not one for the otherhttp://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/no.gif

Kubo has said in interviews he does not have time to do the manga. He only helped out near the end of the bounto arc (Look at the characters looks and animation and you can tell where he stepped in during the arc) And the "Ashido" Arc.

I saw it...It was out of place. It looked so ..er, awkward . The reality of it is. Inoue has never had a conversation with Ichigo that she didn't follow him or seek him out. He doesn't think about her.

Another thing if you want to look at "Quivering eyes" & "Expressions" He quivered at Grimmjow and he put more emotions into his voice when he said Rukia's name. Order did matter..Yes I am back to that.

Kubo took his time an laid down the foundation of IchiRuki...The Anime stepped on it's sacred bond. I am sure that isn't the message he wants to convey. If he did he would have given Inoue more of a chance.

HT you find comfort in a non-canon anime handshake because to put quite frankly you have nothing else to go on but your hopes and Inoue's dreams.
In the manga after the fight he ask is she alright and then Nel interrupts and there is nothing romantic about it.

Ichigo has never shown the same emotion and sadness. He went to save Orihime because it's in his character to do so. However did he not tell GJ who just accused him of lying. Lying that he was there for Inoue. Did Ichigo not agree that that was truth or did he say"YOUR RIGHT"?

Thus ICHIRUKI>IchiOri

And business is not business everywhere. How old are you? How come you don't know different countries have different laws?

WONDERMIKE

2008-04-17, 20:53

first of all I have to say that the ep167 finish made my day.. not because of what happened in the anime but because of all the reactions across the msg boards :D it's such a clear sign and expression of excessive fanboyism when people are in an uproar and state things like "bleach is dead for me" or "I refuse to watch it". Please walk it like you talk it and stay away from bleach when all your enjoyment is killed so easily. IMO you have way to great expectations on the romantic note, if I had to put my money on ichi-ruki/ichi-hime/whatever.. I would go for an opend end.

Even though I tend to like the Ichi-Ori pairing I don't see the big deal and it's no reason to go "omg now it is 100% clear that they will end up together". It's like always in bleach, everything is open and it's up to your imagination. While some will call that scene the evidence for them to love each other you can also stay down to earth and use your logic. This scene could portray the relief and the relaxation, just look at Ichigo's face, doesn't it remind you of something? *farewell-scene-after-ss-arc* comes to mind.. there's still no love confession or evident sign of an love interest from Ichigo's side. I didn't check the mimic but I would laugh my ass off if he looks exactly the same way like back then :heh: and I'm also glad that the "can't you see it? even the animation studio is on ichi-ruki-side"-argument died today... there goes the "fact".

We're talking about Japanese mangaka not the American one -_-' they're totally different cases..

why is it important if they are japanese or american?

blu3an9el

2008-04-17, 21:24

Hi everyone! been lurking for quite sometime now and I must say I have been resisting the urge to participate in the discussions. I must say you guys are pretty good! and it never tires me to visit this thread and I'd always make time just to see what has been happening. I must say I was pretty darned disappointed that right after I decided to register the thread got closed:upset: so I am pretty happy now... hehehe...

I must say that I am going for the IchiRuki pairing though... this has been the case eversince I started watching and reading about the series. They do have this certain chemistry between them...

why is it important if they are japanese or american?

I think this is important since japanese and americans have different cultures and beliefs..

WONDERMIKE

2008-04-17, 21:30

I think this is important since japanese and americans have different cultures and beliefs..

no shit! :heh: of course I asked Hana this question in context..

so please tell me where's the difference when japanese/american mangakas sell their work to animation or film studios

UPR

2008-04-17, 21:39

The way I see it, they had to change the end of 167 if there going to start fillers. If they kept it the same then the next part of the manga would be next. Maybe they saved that part of the manga to when they stop with fillers and start adapting the original text.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 21:57

Business is business, no matter where you are.

It becomes silly when you try to discredit something with something as universal as business.

Amirali

2008-04-17, 22:43

And business is not business everywhere. How old are you? How come you don't know different countries have different laws?
I'm nitpicking, but if you're talking about "laws", then mangling an author's work (once you buy the rights) isn't against the law either in Japan or anyone else. That doesn't actually make a difference. I think you mean to say different countries have different business practice?

We're also talking like this handholding is a such a huge deal that either Kubo greenlit it or it was a big slap in his face by the animators. Let's keep this in perspective here. Overall, Bleach is almost saint-like in it's fidelity to manga........now Claymore, that was just a horrible deviation from the manga...

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 22:51

Japan was reconstructed after WW2 with the guidance of the United Nations, with America as its primary overseer as the country was responsible for nuking the country back to the stone age, more or less.

A lot of the political and law structures of japan are built on American standards. Where do you think the sailor uniforms came from? censorship of pornography? etc, etc, it was all because of the general that was put in charge in reconstructing Japan. He was a purist of the christian religion, and big time militant.

If you want to talk to me about the history of Japan, come back to me when you have actual knowledge. I've started spending my summers in Japan at 5 years old up till I was 18, at my grandparents place. So don't tell me what its like over there.

Well enough about that, whether you choose to accept it or not, is irrelevant to the overall picture. There was a reason behind the scene between Ichigo and Orihime, and it still stands.

Amirali

2008-04-17, 23:16

Yeah, the scene happened and it's sweet.....no-one can change that :D. I wouldn't lecture you on Japanese pratices, Hayashi.........I am not that presumptuous about knowing of the country well.

MAQI

2008-04-17, 23:17

Well enough about that, whether you choose to accept it or not, is irrelevant to the overall picture. There was a reason behind the scene between Ichigo and Orihime, and it still stands.

I usualy don't post on this thread cuz I'd probably get all riled up and get kicked out of Animesuki compleatly. I do want to know what you meant by this statement though. :)

Marsala

2008-04-17, 23:24

Well enough about that, whether you choose to accept it or not, is irrelevant to the overall picture. There was a reason behind the scene between Ichigo and Orihime, and it still stands.

The reason behind the scene is simple: the animators needed a stopping place for the arc, so they made up a new scene that made it seem all peaceful and successful. That's all there is to it. It has zero relevance to the manga since Kubo ignores anime-only added stuff.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-17, 23:42

I usualy don't post on this thread cuz I'd probably get all riled up and get kicked out of Animesuki compleatly. I do want to know what you meant by this statement though. :)

lol, I do know what you mean. But, the "regulars" on the opposing side, no matter how aggressive I may sound, I still like them, lol XD

The reason behind the scene is simple: the animators needed a stopping place for the arc, so they made up a new scene that made it seem all peaceful and successful. That's all there is to it. It has zero relevance to the manga since Kubo ignores anime-only added stuff.

Thats a possible reason. Also, There could've been a mutual agreement that the scene in the manga was under played, and they wanted to "make up" for it. Once an issue has been released, theres nothing you can do about it. I'm only speaking of possibility though. If I worked for the studio I would be able to say something more concert, but all we have is speculations on why we did it.

But, speaking from a cinematographic point of view, it was implied importance. The way the scene is "shot", in this case animated, is very important. In film shots are done to convey the directors intentions towards the viewers. The side shot of Ichigo and Inoue facing each other, is pretty symbolic. Their color schemes come to play, Inoue in white with black lining, and Ichigo in black with white lining. If you freeze frame that scene, it'll resemble a ying yang. Pretty clever if I do say so myself.

Then there was a good focus on the hands holding each other, that close up shot and delay means they want you to pay attention to it. Then the prolonged shots of Ichigo looking at Inoue and Inoue looking at Ichigo while holding hands. They continue to hold hands and then looks off into the horizon. It can be viewed as symbolic, like moving onwards together. As not once did they lose physical contact, and the way he was holding her hand, and they were centralized on the screne.

This last few moments of the episode is intended to be the highlight, the one thing that will keep people talking, and it works. You got a few here and there talking about Grimm, but for every 1 person you find talking about the fight, theres 10 more talking about the ending scene.

Sinta

2008-04-17, 23:59

Hello everyone I am taking a break from my habeas brief to comment. I have missed you all.

Basic thoughts on 167. I thought it was well done. I did think the ending was out of place because there is nothing in the interactions that tells me that ichigo could ever look at inoue like that lets not even start on the holding hands. I also have a hard time believing that it can proof anything as it was so different from the manga. That being said, it was kind of sweet. I wish we had more interactions like that.

However as far as pairings go. It doesn't change anything. Sorry guys if we are talking about "likelihood" then a non-cannon interaction that is contrary to Ichigo's current character and is in fact the almost exact opposite of how he really acts in that scene, doesn't bode well for consistency and predictability for future events. The anime gets its material from the manga. not the other way around. The best evidence rule states to prove the content of a writing, recording, or photograph (and any interpretation thereof), the original writing, recording, or photograph is required, except as otherwise provided so that opponents and magistrate can examine them.The reason why they do is that so that things can't be changed or adjusted from the original content. We don't need someone else explanation or interpretation we need the original material because the original material gives us the more accurate information. I know this isn't directly comparable in this situation, but I think that it can put you in a frame of mind of what I am trying to display. The anime is another interpretation of Kubo's work. We can argue all we want about how much involvement Kubo has in it, but the fact is we don't know. Everything else is pure speculation. If we want to determine the likelihood of pairings, then like the best evidence rule says, we want to use the best evidence possible. If you have manga evidence and anime evidence that directly contradict one another. it is easy to see which one you use. You use the source material closest to the author as it’s the most correct information.

I think the reason that the anime team, and this is pure speculation on my part, put that there was some sort of closure for this arc. I wouldn't be surprised if after the filler arc that is where the team picked up and Ichigo simply pulled inoue off her feet and over his shoulder. Showing a complete disregard for her presence there. I think that is the reason for that scene, I don't see how it could be anything else.

If you want to take this discussion from a business aspect (how did we get on this topic) then you need to think in the business sense. ichigo and inoue aren't popular what would be prude about a filler that changes the manga and promotes an unpopular pairing? That reasoning doesn't support your business argument because for the anime to go into a different direction then the manga for business proposes why would they choose the less economically viable? Ichigo and Inoue isn't what are going to make fans swoon, so it doesn't make sense from a business angle. EDIT: that being said that would point toward them making that small change out of necessity instead some other reason.

I know something about copyright and I can tell you the creative minds behind projects very rarely even own the rights to their story let alone have control of something like an T.V. or movie adaptation. The company (whether it be a publisher for a novelist or a screen writer of a play or movie) holds the copyright and creative control over that piece and then give license to a director to change the story according his own vision and producer qualifications. This is standard with most publishing and production companies. (I know this because there is a alot of litigation on it) The future use of the story lines and characters (the intellectual property) are owned by the author but creative licensee is given to the companies. I would assume that it is the same or very similar in Japan. I seriously doubt that Kubo has much say to the changes they make to the anime adaptations. He probably wasn't even responsible for the deal to make Bleach into an anime. I know that J.K Rowling for example had almost NO creative control of the changes and direction the movies took, they consult her but the studio who is putting up the money for the production has final say. Just a thought.

MAQI

2008-04-18, 00:13

lol, I do know what you mean. But, the "regulars" on the opposing side, no matter how aggressive I may sound, I still like them, lol XD

What was the reason behind the scene? That is what I meant.:)

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 00:15

Hello everyone I am taking a break from my habeas brief to comment. I have missed you all.

Basic thoughts on 167. I thought it was well done. I did think the ending was out of place because there is nothing in the interactions that tells me that ichigo could ever look at inoue like that lets not even start on the holding hands. I also have a hard time believing that it can prove anything as it was so different from the manga. That being said, it was kind of sweet. I wish we had more interactions like that.

However as far as pairings go. It doesn't change anything. Sorry guys if we are talking about "likelihood" then a non-cannon interaction that is contrary to Ichigo's current character and is in fact the almost exact opposite of how he really acts in that scene, doesn't bode well for consistency and predictability for future events. The anime gets its material from the manga. not the other way around. The best evidence rule states to prove the content of a writing, recording, or photograph (and any interpretation thereof), the original writing, recording, or photograph is required, except as otherwise provided so that opponents and magistrate can examine them.The reason why they do this is so things can't be changed or adjusted from the original content. We don't need someone else explanation or interpretation we need the original material because the original material gives us the more accurate information. I know this isn't directly comparable in this situation, but I think that it can put you in a frame of mind of what I am trying to display. The anime is another interpretation of Kubo's work. We can argue all we want about how much involvement Kubo has in it, but the fact is we don't know. Everything else is pure speculation. If we want to determine the likelihood of pairings, then like the best evidence rule says, we want to use the best evidence possible. If you have manga evidence and anime evidence that directly contradict one another. it is easy to see which one you use. You use the source material closest to the author as it’s the most correct information.

I think the reason that the anime team, and this is pure speculation on my part, put that there was some sort of closure for this arc. I wouldn't be surprised if after the filler arc that is where the team picked up and Ichigo simply pulled inoue off her feet and over his shoulder. Showing a complete disregard for her presence there. I think that is the reason for that scene, I don't see how it could be anything else.

If you want to take this discussion from a business aspect (how did we get on this topic) then you need to think in the business sense. ichigo and inoue aren't popular what would be prudant about a filler that changes the manga and promotes an unpopular pairing? That reasoning doesn't support your business argument because for the anime to go into a different direction then the manga for business proposes you would think they would do whatever is economic viable? Ichigo and Inoue is not the couple that is going to make fans swoon and alot of money in the process, so it doesn't make sense from a business angle.

I know something about copyright and I can tell you the creative minds behind projects very rarely even own the rights to their story let alone have control of something like an T.V. or movie adaptation. The company (whether it be a publisher for a novelist or a screen writer of a play or movie) holds the copyright and creative control over that piece and then given license to a director to change the story according his finish and producer qualifications. This is standard with most publishing and production companies. (I know this because there is a alot of litigation on it) The future use of the story lines and characters (the intellectual property) are owned by the author but creative licensee is given to the companies. I would assume that it is the same or very similar in Japan. I seriously doubt that Kubo has much say to the changes they make to the anime adaptations. He probably wasn't even responsible for the deal to make Bleach into an anime. I know that J.K Rowling for example had almost NO creative control of the changes and direction the movies took, they consult her but the studio who is putting up the money for the production has final say. Just a thought.

I applaud you for your knowledge.

All things considering, as I've been saying, and you've reiterated. Everything is speculation on our part as to why they chose to do what they did, and how much involvement Kubo actually has. Its a case by case scenario, we can make lists of where authors have creative input and where authors have no input, and they both would probably stack to the same level. Its dependent on the contract, and how the studios / publishing house works.

I don't see how this scene is in complete contradiction of anything. They added something between. Whats going to happen when the fillers end? who knows, but theres a good chance that they'll throw in the over the shoulder scene though. They'll probably do something like, they're looking for a spot to get down, but then Ichigo just got an idea and grabs Inoue.

Anyway, whichever pairing ends up happening, won't affect sells. Sorry, but it won't, Bleach isn't a romance show, its an action series, with character interactions. Calling the Ichihime pairing unpopular is uncalled for. Granted its not AS popular as the other, its still a popular pairing. Rukia fans tend to be more verbally aggressive, thus are more pronounce and easier to notice. But thats only the case so far from what I've seen here in the states.

What was the reason behind the scene? That is what I meant.:)

Read that same post, after the comment I made to you.

Sinta

2008-04-18, 00:46

HT,

The scene is a complete contradiction of how ichigo acts after the fight. In the anime, he walks up looking soft eyed and offers an hand which he holds. The anime add something something that wasn't there and therefore causes a contradiction in ichigo's character. In the manga, Ichigo comes to her tosses her over his shoulder and doesn't even think twice about it. If the "Inoue inspiration" scene is as important as you all say it is then this is not how a boy who just realized his love should act. This is something that has been discussed; ichigo acts like nothing happen has changed between he and inoue. He treats her as a friend, plain and simple. While i don't think the scene was suppose to mean anything significant it was still a contradiction to his behavior concerning inoue.

You say that bleach isn't a romance show...what does that even mean? Bleach has all aspects of story telling. Saying its not a romance show doesn't mean anything. The fights, the relationships and the dynamics are all developed parallel to one another it isn't just an action show just to say that certain things will happen because its an action is trying to simplify its complexity and i just don't think it does the manga justice. The relationship dynamics in bleach are just as, if not more important then the action scenes. You don't think that a pairing will effect sells? That is already a incorrect statement. Ichigo and Rukia has done wonders for bleach, their products sells from doujin to breakfast mugs are all very hot items. Ichigo and Rukia relationship effects Bleach popularity and that will/does effect sells. I'm not trying to be malicious by saying that ichigo/inoue is unpopular, i say it because its true. ichigo/rukia is a far more popular pairing in Japan. its not hurtful just true. As for you comments about fandoms there are all types in both fandoms, there are just more Ichigo/rukia fans so they seem more aggressive.

morgus

2008-04-18, 01:00

I don't see why ichihime shippers would even like that scene, I mean, don't they want that pairing to develop and be believable? This "moment" just came out of nowhere and just accentuates ichihime's awkwardness. But I do understand that they had to start the fillers on an up note, but they went a little overboard imo.

Endrance

2008-04-18, 01:16

I know i mean talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. This is just like using orihimes feeling for ichigo to justify them being together. I didnt see in that scene what Ichihime fans apparently saw as proof there in love or something

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 01:52

Marsala

2008-04-18, 02:25

Orihime is the central heroine of the story, as of now. And the way its going, theres no room for Rukia to step in and take the limelight without it feeling awkward. All I can see her doing right now, is being a cheerleader. She's incapable of doing anything other than getting killed. Orihime at least has plot hax on her side.

But Orihime was just bait. Her central role is all but over. Once Ichigo beats Ulquiorra, she will cease to matter to any of the villains and probably return to being a back row healer character. Kubo made Orihime the central character of the unimportant middle of his story that existed mainly to show off Hueco Mundo and give the main cast and some of the supporting cast mid-level enemies to fight.

The upcoming fight with Ulquiorra will resolve Orihime's abduction and should bring closure to her character arc that has been ongoing since Ulquiorra's first appearance: her seemingly unrequited feelings for Ichigo and her own feelings of self worth.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 02:41

But Orihime was just bait. Her central role is all but over. Once Ichigo beats Ulquiorra, she will cease to matter to any of the villains and probably return to being a back row healer character. Kubo made Orihime the central character of the unimportant middle of his story that existed mainly to show off Hueco Mundo and give the main cast and some of the supporting cast mid-level enemies to fight.

The upcoming fight with Ulquiorra will resolve Orihime's abduction and should bring closure to her character arc that has been ongoing since Ulquiorra's first appearance: her seemingly unrequited feelings for Ichigo and her own feelings of self worth.

Trying to Decipher Aizen's mind is not easy. I starting questioning nearly everything Aizen say or do, he's a tricky s.o.b., think about it... If

Orihime isn't necessary anymore, is it necessary to have Ulq. keep them from saving her? or was it necessary for them to reabduct Orihime back into the tower? You should question whats taken place and not take it at face value, it is Aizen we're talking about here.

Theres no doubt in my mind that he'll come close to achieveing his goal before the climax. It'll come to a point where the build up for Orihime's power come into play, you can quote me on this.

Marsala

2008-04-18, 02:47

Trying to Decipher Aizen's mind is not easy. I starting questioning nearly everything Aizen say or do, he's a tricky s.o.b., think about it... If

Orihime isn't necessary anymore, is it necessary to have Ulq. keep them from saving her? or was it necessary for them to reabduct Orihime back into the tower? You should question whats taken place and not take it at face value, it is Aizen we're talking about here.

Theres no doubt in my mind that he'll come close to achieveing his goal before the climax. It'll come to a point where the build up for Orihime's power come into play, you can quote me on this.
Aizen likes to mess with people's emotions by taunting them. He certainly didn't need to broadcast his monologue to the main cast. He probably just took Orihime back so that he could torment her one last time. Ulquiorra was left there because, hey, he can't leave Las Noches in Yammy's hands, can he?

Aizen will certainly come close to reaching his goal, but there is little reason to expect Orihime's powers to have anything to do with it. Aizen plans to go to the Royal Domain and kill the Spirit King. Orihime's powers have nothing to do with that; at most, she might reject something at a critical moment to remove an obstacle or heal an important person. After the battle of Fake Karakura, there will probably be another "downtime" arc when Ichigo does his final training and then a Royal Domain arc with the last battle; Orihime will be important in neither.

Langus

2008-04-18, 02:50

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet...or maybe they have and i just didn't catch it in the 3+ pages of posts that've been done since this thread reopened but direct quote from Ichigo:

Ichigo: "You were right. I came here to fight and to defeat you, Grimmjow!" *flashback to scenes of all the previous fights they've had against each other* "I came to destroy you! And Ulquiorra! And Aizen!" *then Ichigo talks about how he's going to bring everyone back "Rukia, Chad....Orihime"*

Now to me this handy little quote not only A) Confirms Ichigo's much speculated reasons for being in HC to begin with, but also B) establishes that Orihime is no more or less important than any of his other friends in HC with him.

Now if I use the logic used by some Orihime shippers in here - that the animators realized that the Ichigo Orihime reunion scene had been underdone in the manga and therefore expanded upon it with the hand holding scene - then the same logic could be applied here to demonstrate that Ichigo's true reasons for being in HC are to fight, not to rescue Orihime - something which was not established adequately enough (apparently) in the manga.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 03:11

Aizen likes to mess with people's emotions by taunting them. He certainly didn't need to broadcast his monologue to the main cast. He probably just took Orihime back so that he could torment her one last time. Ulquiorra was left there because, hey, he can't leave Las Noches in Yammy's hands, can he?

Aizen will certainly come close to reaching his goal, but there is little reason to expect Orihime's powers to have anything to do with it. Aizen plans to go to the Royal Domain and kill the Spirit King. Orihime's powers have nothing to do with that; at most, she might reject something at a critical moment to remove an obstacle or heal an important person. After the battle of Fake Karakura, there will probably be another "downtime" arc when Ichigo does his final training and then a Royal Domain arc with the last battle; Orihime will be important in neither.

Lets put it this way, you have your speculations, and I have mine. I say Orihime is a key player in the destruction of the key, you say otherwise. I doubt we'll get another training arc, theres no time. Everything is down to the nitty gritty. With every fight Ichigo has gotten that much stronger. Ichigo isn't going to say, wait Aizen, give me a few days, I'll come back to kick your ass. this isn't like S.S. where the execution is on a schedule. This one is a full blown war. Like I said though, everything Aizen is doing is questionable, if you want to take it at face value then go ahead, but last time I trusted Aizen he pulled a clark kent to super man on me.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet...or maybe they have and i just didn't catch it in the 3+ pages of posts that've been done since this thread reopened but direct quote from Ichigo:

Ichigo: "You were right. I came here to fight and to defeat you, Grimmjow!" *flashback to scenes of all the previous fights they've had against each other* "I came to destroy you! And Ulquiorra! And Aizen!" *then Ichigo talks about how he's going to bring everyone back "Rukia, Chad....Orihime"*

Now to me this handy little quote not only A) Confirms Ichigo's much speculated reasons for being in HC to begin with, but also B) establishes that Orihime is no more or less important than any of his other friends in HC with him.

Now if I use the logic used by some Orihime shippers in here - that the animators realized that the Ichigo Orihime reunion scene had been underdone in the manga and therefore expanded upon it with the hand holding scene - then the same logic could be applied here to demonstrate that Ichigo's true reasons for being in HC are to fight, not to rescue Orihime - something which was not established adequately enough (apparently) in the manga.

By your post, you're downplaying Rukia as well. I hope you realize that.

Anyway, in Ichigo's mind, he's there to protect all his friends. And to protect them, means to kick all the bad guys ass, plain and simple. In his mind beat bad guys = protecting everyone.

It still doesn't change what the director wanted us to see in ep.166 and 167 though. :)

Kakashi

2008-04-18, 04:30

What was the reason behind the scene? That is what I meant.:)

I think he means that Kubo may have decided to take IchiHime further and intends to do so after the flashbacks. Therefore having this scene in the anime would make it less of a suprise, bare in mind more people watch the anime then read the manga. Most of you here probably began with the anime. With that in mind, imagine how many people who don't analyse everything like OD and Sinta, think IchiHime is a done deal after that scene. Simple minded IchigoxRukia fans on other forums are going absolutely insane, it's hilarious yet sad. Lots of 'I'll never watch Bleach again'. It make's me wonder why people watch Bleach.

I agree with Hayashi that an IchiHime pairing would not affect income much. Merchandise such as cups and mugs are barely a fraction of profit's and I don't see that as a good reason for why IchiHime can't happen. Pre-teens do not give a crap about pairings! Bleach is aimed at pre-teens. My brother is a pre-teen and guess what, while he has a preference in pairings (IchiHime :)), he still get's angry when even they have a romantic moment. Why? Because he's more intrested in other things. Basically more mugs will be sold with Ichigo in Bankai then Ichigo & Rukia smiling like prostitutes.

I don't see how people saw the scene as awkward. I found it strange that it didn't happen in the manga. There's obviously a correlation to who keeps saying that.

Lastly Ichigo is on his way to fight Ulquiorra and yet again Inoue is the central theme in this rescue. He didn't even ask about Rukia's safety when he had the chance. There is only one girl on his mind right now.

@ OD - What has age got to do with knowing about laws in other countries? If you're intrested you find that out, nothing to do with age.

Langus

2008-04-18, 04:53

By your post, you're downplaying Rukia as well. I hope you realize that.

Anyway, in Ichigo's mind, he's there to protect all his friends. And to protect them, means to kick all the bad guys ass, plain and simple. In his mind beat bad guys = protecting everyone.

It still doesn't change what the director wanted us to see in ep.166 and 167 though. :)

Since I'm not a shipper that makes absolutely no difference to me.

My point was to illustrate the fact that as far as the anime goes, there isn't much of a contextual basis to suggest that Ichigo's sole reason for going to HC was to rescue Orihime or that his reasons for being there are underscored by some romantic interest in her.

Also, his words alone point to the fact that his reasons for fighting are a lot more diverse than just a desire to protect everyone. Ichigo identifies with characters like Kenpachi and Grimmjow because like them he loves to fight - a desire which becomes ever more apparent each time he uses his hollow form in battle (which I'm sure we can all accept is his darker alter ego).

Listen to his tone and what he says to Grimmjow during their fight in 166 - it's all about demonstrating which of them is most powerful, which of them is the better/stronger fighter. Putting it bluntly it's a pissing match, not some kind of noble battle to protect Orihime or anyone else.

That hand holding scene at the end was a (lame) attempt by the animators to wrap everything up in a nice neat little package that is sort of a happy ending so there'd be no cliffhanger before slipping into 2-3 months of a filler arc. That's all.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 05:08

Since I'm not a shipper that makes absolutely no difference to me.

My point was to illustrate the fact that as far as the anime goes, there isn't much of a contextual basis to suggest that Ichigo's sole reason for going to HC was to rescue Orihime or that his reasons for being there are underscored by some romantic interest in her.

Also, his words alone point to the fact that his reasons for fighting are a lot more diverse than just a desire to protect everyone. Ichigo identifies with characters like Kenpachi and Grimmjow because like them he loves to fight - a desire which becomes ever more apparent each time he uses his hollow form in battle (which I'm sure we can all accept is his darker alter ego).

Listen to his tone and what he says to Grimmjow during their fight in 166 - it's all about demonstrating which of them is most powerful, which of them is the better/stronger fighter. Putting it bluntly it's a pissing match, not some kind of noble battle to protect Orihime or anyone else.

That hand holding scene at the end was a (lame) attempt by the animators to wrap everything up in a nice neat little package that is sort of a happy ending so there'd be no cliffhanger before slipping into 2-3 months of a filler arc. That's all.

Not a shipper? You could've fooled me.

You're trying to bring attention to one scene, where there are several other scenes that leans towards the other. I believe I've already mentioned it before already but I'll reiterate.

From the moment Ichigo put on his mask, he was ready to burst out into man tears everytime he made eye contact with Orihime. And when Ichigo finally overcame her correlation with Ichigo's resemblence to her brother as a hollow, he went he-man on Grimm., but in the most gentle face possible. What does this prove? Easy, it means Orihime's opinions matter to him. Where when it came to Rukia's rescue, he repeatedly said her opinions means nothing.

Just because Ichigo didn't say the words, he was in S.S. for the same reasons. In S.S. Arc, Byakuya handed him his ass, now he's back for some pay back. In HM, Grimm handed him his ass, and now he's back for pay back, see the pattern? Beat up bad guys to make sure friends are safe. But, there is one glaring difference, the interaction between Ichigo and Orihime, and Ichigo and Rukia.

The show is indeed about kicking ass. The interactions of characters as I mentioned is an underlining to give the characters dynamics, otherwise we'll have another DBZ on our hands. For the first half of bleach, there was little to no romance, the only things we see are Orihime's obvious crush on Ichigo, hell even Kenpachi and his little following saw through it. And the jokes made around Rukia. Then all of a sudden we have an actual romantic device to drive a plot. But Kubo didn't use Rukia, he used Inoue. Why? if Rukia is so prevalent to being a romantic pairing for Ichigo, why is the strongest romantic emotions coming from Inoue's ball park and not Rukia? He could've easy written that Rukia had some side affect from having the object inside her for so long, that she gained some new powers. But nope, he went with Inoue. And he forshadowed her role from the very beginning.

morgus

2008-04-18, 08:50

I don't think it is to your advantage to compare the interactions between ichigo and inoue to ichigo and rukia, for the simple fact that ichigo and inoue don't really interact. In soul society, ichigo and rukia "interacted". Sure they fought, but they also worried about eachother and repeatedly thought about the other. Compare that to hueco mundo, where not even once have we seen ichigo think about inoue except when she was brought up by ulq, and we have barely even seen inoue when ulq was'nt there, and when they do interact, it's always interrupted. Also, your last paragraph pretty much says that since inoue loves ichigo that means they're canon and I think that argument has been beaten to death.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 09:35

Warchef

2008-04-18, 09:47

Wait... Ichigo interacted with Rukia during the S.S. Arc? news to me, they only saw eachother twice. and both times were seconds long.

I'm not saying its canon, I'm saying at least one side has something concrete rather than speculation and interpretation.

What concrete evidence is it? Relationships are mutual, not one-sided affairs.

Orihime's confession is not proof of IchiHime. A one-sided love confession to a sleeping Ichigo (which btw is symbolic) doesn't prove anything. When it comes down to it, both sides are at square one. However, if you look at relationship development and story progression, Ichigo and Rukia have more going on than Ichigo and Inoue.

Also, them holding hands in 167, which is horrendously OOC for Ichigo and Inoue as well (strange that she didn't blush)and the fact that it lacked romantic or sexual tension at all (much like the caveman over the shoulder scene in the manga), doesn't make IchiHime any more likely. The anime team, unless otherwise stated, is free to pursue the production of Bleach independently. They will go to KT for some things, but the hand holding scene in 167 was NOT one of them.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 09:56

Concrete as in at least one side isn't open to interpretation, is that difficult to understand or do I need to speak in another language?

Warchef

2008-04-18, 10:02

Concrete as in at least one side isn't open to interpretation, is that difficult to understand or do I need to speak in another language?

/facepalm

Do you STILL not get that relationships are MUTUAL not one-sided affairs?

Actually, Orihime's "love" is open to interpretation. She's 15 (16?), pretty young to be declaring you would love someone for five lifetimes. The fact is, Orihime has suffered much throughout her life. She is a happy go lucky kind of person but she suffers when it comes to relationships with the opposite sex. She has Ichigo now (read HM arc) as a good friend, and someone she can trust, but honestly, throughout the previous arcs she was doing nothing but pining after Ichigo's attention and she got nearly zero of it. Imagine what that would do to a girl who is supposedly "in love". Orihime's feelings are unrequited love, and the way KT has set it up, she is either going to confess to Ichigo or gain some kind of "OMGWTFHAVEIBEENDOING" character revelation and realize that she is hurting herself by pining after him.

Edit for additional info from the manga:

If Ichigo actually cared about Inoue more than as a friend, wouldn't the first thing you would do for someone you loved be go to rescue them IMMEDIATELY from their kidnappers? From 314/315 we know he doesn't do that. He sees Inoue taken from him with his own eyes, yet what is the first thing he does? He decides to go to KKT to help stop Aizen, even though Kenpachi told him that the Gotei 13 captains were going to KKT to hold Aizen off. It's only after Kenpachi gives him a speech that he turns around and goes off towards Inoue. Strange that it's right after he senses Ulquiorra's reiatsu. Case in point, this arc if anything showcased that Ichigo wasn't in HM primarily to rescue Inoue. He came for revenge against Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, who had both beaten him to a bloody pulp in earlier battles. It was a battle for Ichigo's pride, not for Inoue. What makes this more poignant is the fact that Grimmjow, Ulquiorra, Kenpachi, Rukia, and Inoue herself have doubts as to why he REALLY came to HM. If KT was trying to transition for an eventual IchiHime relationship, this arc was a horrible convincing statement.

/rant off

morgus

2008-04-18, 10:06

If you really want to nitpick, we could speculate whether or not inoue really loves ichigo at all. We only have her word for it, and we don't even know why she says she loves him. <- Stupid I know, but the point is that words are just as open to interpretation as actions. You see inoue love, somebody else might see infatuation or obsession. So to dismiss something in fiction as noncanon because you think it's open to interpretation is kind of a copout to me.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 10:10

Maybe I am speaking another language? I'm not saying ZoMg, ICHIHIME is 4ReAlz yo.

I'll break it down for you word by word.

Ichigo's behavior is ambiguous, we have no idea where he's leaning towards just yet, and most likely we won't know till the very end, if it even happens at all. What we as fans decide to interpret his actions is our own interpretation, there's nothing we can show to prove it as hard evidence.

Rukia's behavior is even more ambiguous. She has shown even less interest in the opposite sex as Ichigo. She seem content with her position as a cheerleader and has NOT lead anyone to believe she wants anything otherwise. Any subtle behaviors that her fans may pick up is mere interpretation, just as it is with Ichigo.

Inoue, we know she loves Ichigo, we know she wants to advance beyond the friend zone. We know where her heart lies.

Look at the comparisons. Two ambiguous, open to interpretation people, and one undeniable truth. Because theres that one truth, we can't say, "Oh she don't love him, its your imagination", but we can say that to both Ichigo and Rukia. We're left in the dark as to where Inoue stands, but as for Ichigo or Rukia, we're clueless, and are going off on speculation.

Is any of this seeping in?

If you can explain why someone loves another, then you are a god...

Warchef

2008-04-18, 10:11

morgus

2008-04-18, 10:15

It was'nt aimed at you, I wrote it and posted it then read yours and realized that we had posted almost the same thing. In the first sentence, those were my thoughts, I was'nt quoting you.

Warchef

2008-04-18, 10:21

Maybe I am speaking another language? I'm not saying ZoMg, ICHIHIME is 4ReAlz yo.
I'm not saying you are. Maybe you are not making yourself clear enough. What I'm getting from what you post is "Inoue confessed to Ichigo so that makes the IchiHime pairing more likely." Maybe you are saying that, maybe you're not.

I'll break it down for you word by word.

Ichigo's behavior is ambiguous, we have no idea where he's leaning towards just yet, and most likely we won't know till the very end, if it even happens at all. What we as fans decide to interpret his actions is our own interpretation, there's nothing we can show to prove it as hard evidence.

Exactly, it is ambiguous. However, in the absence of actual hard,concrete evidence (which exists on both sides I'll admit), you look at authorial intent.

Rukia's behavior is even more ambiguous. She has shown even less interest in the opposite sex as Ichigo. She seem content with her position as a cheerleader and has NOT lead anyone to believe she wants anything otherwise. Any subtle behaviors that her fans may pick up is mere interpretation, just as it is with Ichigo.

Wait, Rukia is a CHEERLEADER? Which is why she hasn't been in the forefront fighting along Ichigo then entire series right? Oh wait...

That's Inoue.

Inoue, we know she loves Ichigo, we know she wants to advance beyond the friend zone. We know where her heart lies.

Mere speculation. IchiHime and Inoue fans like to THINK that she's in love. That's debatable. A 15-16 year old girl declaring her "five lifetimes of love" when she has been pining after (some would call it obsession) the main hero for the entire series instead of actual helping her friends and her character progress kind of leads to debate whether or not this actually is love.

Look at the comparisons. Two ambiguous, open to interpretation people, and one undeniable truth. Because theres that one truth, we can't say, "Oh she don't love him, its your imagination", but we can say that to both Ichigo and Rukia. We're left in the dark as to where Inoue stands, but as for Ichigo or Rukia, we're clueless, and are going off on speculation.

What? It's all mere speculation. Inoue's "love" is debatable. So, it's speculation. In the absence of the concrete evidence you rant about, we look at authorial intent and the progression of the manga as a whole. The relationship evolving since the beginning of the manga is...

Ichigo and Rukia

Is any of this seeping in?

You tell me. You are the one that's claiming Inoue's "love" isn't open for debate.

If you can explain why someone loves another, then you are a god...

Wait what? :confused:

Kakashi

2008-04-18, 10:37

Warchef

2008-04-18, 10:43

lol if you two can't even bring yourself to believe that Inoue is in love with Ichigo, yet somehow Ichigo and Rukia are clearly in love, then what chance does anyone have of convincing you otherwise? Ok this is going to be scarry but I think you should try:

Somehow you think you know her better then her. If you can't do this and if you're so confident that IchiHime will never happen why not leave now instead of wasting time.

I never said I thought Ichigo and Rukia were CLEARLY IN LOVE. I said that their relationship, because it has had so much attention by Kubo, has more potential. I think that the IchiHime pairing can happen, I just don't believe it will because so little has been focused on the two together and the fact that the HM arc was such a failure at convincing people as well as showing us that Ichigo had ulterior motives to coming to HM, rather than just being their to rescue Inoue.

--> Listening to what Inoue say's<--

Again, how many times does it need to be said. It is speculation to say she is actually in love. Sure, she may say she would love him for five lifetimes, but...

Does she really? Considering that unrequited love is a common feature in anime, it's extremely likely that she will come to terms with the fact that maybe loving Ichigo wasn't really love at all.. and she's hurting herself by doing it, while also putting others she cares about in harm's way.

Stop putting words into my mouth.

There is no one reason why someone loves another, there's no formula. Love is imperfect.

Exactly. Which is why I'm saying that Inoue's supposed "love" has a whole 'nother side to it that people don't want to explore.

WONDERMIKE

2008-04-18, 10:47

--> Listening to what Inoue say's<--

:D it's so damn funny, whenever Inoue says something about the ichi-rukia relationship it's like "ah now you see it! this is the author speaking!!111eleventy" but at the same time her love confession never really happened :heh: come on, why do people only see what they want to see? so irrational..

Kakashi

2008-04-18, 10:50

I think you're looking at it in way too much depth. Everything is speculation if you look at it that way. I mean everything in the entire universe is speculation. If Rukia says 'I love Ichigo', then Ichigo says 'I love Rukia' - meh they might not actually be in love they are just saying a simple sentence with the word 'love' as the subject, and 'Rukia/Ichigo' as the object.

I understand what you mean but no one will get anywhere if we don't take the word of the characters.

whenever Inoue says something about the ichi-rukia relationship it's like "ah now you see it! this is the author speaking!!111eleventy" but at the same time her love confession never really happened.
:heh: so true. It's like Inoue is God and knows everything at times, especially when she talks about a relationship she knows nothing about, but when it comes to her own feelings she's just a nieve 15 year old girl who knows jack shi* about anything.

Sinta

2008-04-18, 12:08

Sinta,

I know you didn't mean any malice from it, but Ichihime is indeed a popular coupling. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be thousands of AMV's, fanarts, let alone discussions such as this. I don't deny that IchiRukia has a larger following, but that doesn't change the fact that Ichihime is indeed popular, just less popular. Unpopular would be Rukia x her Zanpaktou's handle.

I'm sorry HT, i base my information on the polls both here and in japan and sales of products based on the show. While they aren't perfect its not hard to see that Ichigo/Rukia is vastly more popular then ichigo/inoue. Its not even a contest. Go to a forum any forum and you will see which pairing is more popular. Granted, Inoue/ichigo is more popular in the west in then in Japan I think that can be said. But Ichigo/Rukia is still more popular, Ichigo/inoue has almost no support in Japan. AMV's don't mean anything, fan art doesn't mean anything. Those evidences dont' tell us about the break down the polls done are far more reliable. I'm sorry its just not a very popular pairing.

Its a matter of character dynamics to broaden the audience. Lets be honest here, Bleach's target audience is preteen ~ low teen boys. Whatever bracket audience happen to like it to is a matter of circumstance, just as Harry Potter is intended for little kids, but you'll find 60 year old women masterbating over it. (sorry for the vulgar choice of words, lol)

Actually from what I understand the demographic that reads bleach most are teen girls into their 20s. Is that right someone check that for me? That being said, how would a Inoue/Ichigo moment broaden the demographic? Aren't those people already watching like you said? I thought you said the pairings wouldn't affect bleach? I'm confused now, which is it? The most rational explanation for that moment was that they were leading into a filler. Its the only explanation that really makes sense.

Fandom isn't always met with their expectations. Theres been examples like Shuffle for instance, where the least popular girl won out in the end. Where Kubo is going with all of this, is beyond any of our knowledge, its his story afterall. Kubo has centralized the story on Orihime and Ichigo and placed Rukia on the backburners for quite some time now. Why is this? Think about that for a moment. Everything that had to do with Rukia and Ichigo are mere speculation, nothing concrete to back it up. But, Kubo in his magical wonders decide to make something concrete, and thats Orihime. The idea of romance was never touched upon between Rukia with Ichigo. they've only played jokes on it. But with Orihime it became serious, it was something that actually moved the story and brought about the current plot. While Rukia whos being worshipped is nowhere in sight.

Very true fandoms aren't always met with expectations, and you are right Shuffle was a good example. (I thought it was great who they chose in the end). However, the events that made a transition like what happen in shuffle possible are not present in Bleach. Rin reacted to Asa, her story unfolded and then Rin made apparently obvious strides towards her. Asa became the female lead by the end of the show, their relationship developed mutually before her arc and within the her arc. She won and it was believable so. This is not the case with ichigo for many reasons. The problem is your "Inoue central to the story argument" for one, has lost all its weight. This has happen for two reasons. Number one, its over, Inoue was a distraction just like Aizen said. She has been developed hard and fast and then served her purpose in the plot. Furthermore and even more damning, her purpose has been served without any real developments between her and Ichigo. This is how bleach and shuffle are different, it had same set up that same chance, but the paths each take are totally different. Two, Kubo has already stated that Rukia is the main female lead, inoue's expanded role hasn't changed that, if that is the case his words would imply her part in the story isn't over.But Even if that were the case, and we aren't focusing on one of the two girls, but on Ichigo alone, the favor still falls towards Rukia as being the most likely person to take the supporting role and develop that type of relationship. She is the one that affects him most. No i'm sorry Inoue's chance seems to be lost because of the wasted opportunities in this arc.

Ask yourself this, why is that? Bleach is rapidly reaching its climax. Theres very little evidence to make it point to something more. Back stories are being covered as we speak, nothing more can be touched upon, its only a matter of time now that Isshin's past will be revealed.

See a rapidly reacting a climax for the story wouldn't do inoue/Ichigo relation any favors. ichigo isn't developed to a point where most people would accept this. Ichigo suddenly returning feelings that he has thus shown that he isn't even capable of would be poor build up and writing. If the story is climaxing it doesn't improve inoue's chances.

The back stories of side characters, there are many many other things that can be discussed and touched upon. If bleach ended in less then a 100 chapters. I would be very surprised.

Orihime is the central heroine of the story, as of now. And the way its going, theres no room for Rukia to step in and take the limelight without it feeling awkward. All I can see her doing right now, is being a cheerleader. She's incapable of doing anything other than getting killed. Orihime at least has plot hax on her side.

You seem really to bank on this argument. Like i said, Inoue's part is done; she was used by Azien there doesn't seem to be any other special use for her character. If that is the case, inoue's relationship dynamic is going to have carry it for her. I'm sorry to say that is lacking greatly.

Rukia steals the limelight by merely being there with Ichigo; there isn't any awkwardness (where did you get that?). What does that even mean? Rukia can steal the limelight because of the affect she and ichigo have on each other. Whether their interaction be important to the plot or not, they will always have that special relationship dynamic. (The Ichigo i have in my heart speech is an example of this; Rukia still profoundly effects Ichigo even though she isn't his main concern.) ichigo and inoue had a plot arc in their favor, now that advantage is rapidly coming to a head. What's left? Very little, their relationship hasn't changed.

The "girl who changes the status quo" of the main character is usually the girl who wins. I state this many times in my own arguments. This is not a bad argument; especially if you have the individual relationship dynamics to back it up. Any girl who wasn't responsible for the change is at a disadvantage at the start and through out the story. However, this argument doesn't work if the reactions don't back up the conclusion. The plot changing relationship allows for interactions, interactions that, in theory, should lead to a relationship. If those interactions don't indicate that (ichigo and Inoue) then the argument loses much of its validity.

Hrm, I can see the contradiction, but at the same time, I don't see it affecting the story in any shape or form. Either way this scene still holds water at least to me and I'm sure many others as well. The next big Ichihime scenes are right after the flashback arcs, but we'll have to wait a few months before that. How Kubo is going to handle it, who knows?

I agree that it won't affect the story because the it won't affect the souce material. Kubo is going to make changes to his story because of something the animators do, especially when its something that would upset the carefully laid foundation of the relationship dynamics.

Sabaku Kyu

2008-04-18, 15:42

Inoue part is done she was used by Azien there doesn't seem to be any other special use for her character.

That seems like a hasty judgement to me. Aizen was the one who said he had no use for her, but he still bothered to have her recaptured? That seems just a little suspicious. What Aizen says and what Aizen does are often two different things, Orihime's involvement in his plans may not be over yet. What Orihime's role will be in the upcoming arcs is really up in the air. But to say that her part is simply done seems a little premature

At the very least, Orihime is simply being used as a plot device for Ulq and Ichigo to have a showdown. Even if that's the case, this fight probably marks that the HM arc is drawing to close and emotions always run the highest toward the end of an arc.

The moments during and directly after Ulq vs. Ichigo will probably be the most emotional scenes between Orihime and Ichigo in the story so far. If the mangaka were to decide to hint any possible change in their relationship, it would be during these chapters IMO.

Sinta

2008-04-18, 16:07

That seems like a hasty judgement to me. Aizen was the one who said he had no use for her, but he still bothered to have her recaptured? That seems just a little suspicious. What Aizen says and what Aizen does are often two different things, Orihime's involvement in his plans may not be over yet. What Orihime's role will be in the upcoming arcs is really up in the air. But to say that her part is simply done seems a little premature

There could have been any number of reasons to recapture her; why tells us that her part is over if it isn't? He knows Ichigo gonna go after her regardless. Aizen says that he brought her there for a purpose there doesn't seem to me that there is any reason not to believe him. I would say I do think she will have a role, but she won't be the focus or goal for Ichigo. That puts her a disadvantage especially if ichigo continues with his indifference.

At the very least, Orihime is simply being used as a plot device for Ulq and Ichigo to have a showdown. Even if that's the case, this fight probably marks that the HM arc is drawing to close and emotions always run the highest toward the end of an arc.

Maybe, maybe not. For all we know Rukia could show up help inspire Ichigo and make Inoue finally articulate what we all should have known all along. Emotions may run high, but I don't see any reason to anticipate some sort of love realization from ichigo. His fight with grimm had every reason to be emotional and yet we get statements that contradict. Regardless it should be interesting to see what ichigo and Ulq have to say to each other.

The moments during and directly after Ulq vs. Ichigo will probably be the most emotional scenes between Orihime and Ichigo in the story so far. If the mangaka were to decide to hint any possible change in their relationship, it would be during these chapters IMO.

You are welcome to your opinion of course, and I would have to think about it...i guess i'm of the opinion that its just too little too late. He is going to have a hard time convincing me that Ichigo could have feelings for Inoue, just too many wasted opportunities.

Endrance

2008-04-18, 16:20

Orihime never has really been the heroine of the series thats always been rukia. Orihime just got her 15 mins during this arc. Seems to be her only purpose was to get everyone to Hueco mundo and she did that. As for recapturing her didnt he then just leave her in the 5th tower

Langus

2008-04-18, 16:20

Not a shipper? You could've fooled me.

You're trying to bring attention to one scene, where there are several other scenes that leans towards the other. I believe I've already mentioned it before already but I'll reiterate.

From the moment Ichigo put on his mask, he was ready to burst out into man tears everytime he made eye contact with Orihime. And when Ichigo finally overcame her correlation with Ichigo's resemblence to her brother as a hollow, he went he-man on Grimm., but in the most gentle face possible. What does this prove? Easy, it means Orihime's opinions matter to him. Where when it came to Rukia's rescue, he repeatedly said her opinions means nothing.

Just because Ichigo didn't say the words, he was in S.S. for the same reasons. In S.S. Arc, Byakuya handed him his ass, now he's back for some pay back. In HM, Grimm handed him his ass, and now he's back for pay back, see the pattern? Beat up bad guys to make sure friends are safe. But, there is one glaring difference, the interaction between Ichigo and Orihime, and Ichigo and Rukia.

The show is indeed about kicking ass. The interactions of characters as I mentioned is an underlining to give the characters dynamics, otherwise we'll have another DBZ on our hands. For the first half of bleach, there was little to no romance, the only things we see are Orihime's obvious crush on Ichigo, hell even Kenpachi and his little following saw through it. And the jokes made around Rukia. Then all of a sudden we have an actual romantic device to drive a plot. But Kubo didn't use Rukia, he used Inoue. Why? if Rukia is so prevalent to being a romantic pairing for Ichigo, why is the strongest romantic emotions coming from Inoue's ball park and not Rukia? He could've easy written that Rukia had some side affect from having the object inside her for so long, that she gained some new powers. But nope, he went with Inoue. And he forshadowed her role from the very beginning.

No I'm not a shipper but it's fairly clear that YOU are since you seem driven for some unknown reason to turn a general observation into a shipping argument. I'm not going to bat back and forth with you over whose scenes mean more since you've already demonstrated your irrational and unsubstantiated pining desire to only read an Ichigo/Orihime relationship. That's fine - that's your call. What I will do though is correct you on an observational error.

In S.S. Arc, Byakuya handed him his ass, now he's back for some pay back. - Ichigo's attacks against Byakuya were solely because Byakuya explicitly stated that he would KILL Rukia himself if she wasn't executed through official channels.

http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000153/06.jpg

If you're going to go on a shipping rant, at least make sure you know what you're talking about first.

FuzzyWuzzy

2008-04-18, 16:26

Kakashi

2008-04-18, 16:37

Langus everyone has a preference. There's no need to get worked up. Lets not get this thread close again. I think you need to decide which pairing you prefer and argue your case for why you like that pairing and why you think it's more likely to happen. Trust me people start with not having a preference but deep down everyone has one. Don't forget this thread is all about preference, it just started turning into a court case and everyone's become a bit too serious. Even if Hayashi was being 'irrational', that doesn't matter, he can say what he wants.

Being a shipper doesn't mean your a rabid fanboy it's just which pairing you prefer. Oh and you're an IchiRuki shipper, I can tell ;)

Sinta

2008-04-18, 16:40

The whole Rukia and Orihime thing is getting out of hand. I think Orihime is really in the lead but it's not yet final. We all know Orihime's feelings but as far as Ichigo and Rukia's feelings, we can only speculate. If Orihime and Ichigo will ever be together, we will find out when or after Ichigo rescues her. Either at the end of that arc or a couple of episodes after that arc.

You guys are just speculating right now.

haha, YOu are also speculating. An Ichigo/inoue eventual is just as riddled if not more riddled with speculation as an Ichigo/Rukia relationship. It was done on purpose. Kubo's teasing us. This thread is talking about likelihood, you say we know Inoue's feelings but that doesn't improve her likelihood. Her relationship with ichigo is what proves her likelihood and she doesn't have a very strong relationship with ichigo. Funny thing about this is I feel that Ichigo especially in his feelings are just as obvious as inoue's love. Most fans agree I dare say. funny how that works isn't it.

Langus everyone has a preference. There's no need to get worked up. Lets not get this thread close again. I think you need to decide which pairing you prefer and argue your case for why you like that pairing and why you think it's more likely to happen. Trust me people start with not having a preference but deep down everyone has one. Don't forget this thread is all about preference, it just started turning into a court case and everyone's become a bit too serious. Even if Hayashi was being 'irrational', that doesn't matter, he can say what he wants.

Being a shipper doesn't mean your a rabid fanboy it's just which pairing you prefer. Oh and you're an IchiRuki shipper, I can tell ;)

I agree with Kakashi to an extend, but remember preference can be based on many things. He may think that ichigo and rukia should be together because he feels the flow of the dictates it. I find myself in a similar position. I don't have some weird connection with Ichigo and Rukia. (Whatever the hell that means.) I think that ichigo and Rukia are most likely because how the story has been laid out as I understand it. I weight evidence and interactions and i just can't make a creditable argument for Ichigo/inoue no matter how I justify it. If Ichigo and inoue were developed, and he explained his past behavior with regard to ichigo/rukia. I would be ok with a pairing between them. there are people like that, I am one of them.

That being said langus may be like that, I don't know many people like that because most will eventually chose sides. But you never know.

Daito-kun

2008-04-18, 17:41

Yep, you never know, how this will end. but my own personal opinion is that if no together with Rukia, even Tatsuki or Hiori are better choises, then orihime. I just don't like her, thats all. That's why I will hope for IchigoXRukia. Arguments are useless in this matter, i think it was more natural to make this thread as a poll.

Sabaku Kyu

2008-04-18, 17:57

You guys are just speculating right now.

It's pretty much speculation that any romance exists at all (beyond Orihime's feelings) :heh:

There could have been any number of reasons to recapture her; why tells us that her part is over if it isn't? He knows Ichigo gonna go after her regardless. Aizen says that he brought her there for a purpose there doesn't seem to me that there is any reason not to believe him.

Plot twist. Aizen has never been totally straight up about his plans. We didn't learn the true purpose of Rukia's execution until the very end of the arc. Aizen led everyone to believe that the power of the Soukyoku was the reason when it really had nothing to do with that. There doesn't seem to be a reason to suspect him of lying, but that's what makes a plot twist unpredictable.

His fight with grimm had every reason to be emotional and yet we get statements that contradict. Regardless it should be interesting to see what ichigo and Ulq have to say to each other.

Nel had statements that contradict that contradiction.

You are welcome to your opinion of course, and I would have to think about it...i guess i'm of the opinion that its just too little too late. He is going to have a hard time convincing me that Ichigo could have feelings for Inoue, just too many wasted opportunities.

Is it too late? Many of the moments IchiXRukia supporters are fond of referencing don't come until the end of the SS arc from the confrontation on Soukyoku hill onwards. Even though things are probably wrapping up, there's a lot that could happen. I doubt there'll be anything that proves a pairing one way or another, but things could become more "gray" after this.

...or not. I think these upcoming chapters will tell a lot.

Warchef

2008-04-18, 18:08

Being a shipper doesn't mean your a rabid fanboy it's just which pairing you prefer. Oh and you're an IchiRuki shipper, I can tell ;)

From what I can tell, he's been trying to be neutral when it comes to the argument. At least he's trying to actually argue intelligently instead of grasping for straws.

P.S.- Did you ever think that the reason why there isn't any outward romantic fluff between Ichigo and Rukia is because it's not in their character? If KT drew Ichigo and Rukia hugging and saying "I love you" in front of other characters, I'd just quit reading/watching Bleach. There are outwardly romantic intentions from Inoue because she's more open about it. It's in her character, but not in Ichigo or Rukia's.

Capiche?

cuteangelika

2008-04-18, 18:31

I'm afraid that the ending will be open-ended - Ichigo wont end up with anybody :-( It's not a romantic show anyway so they might not dwell on that. Or they could leave it hanging so that a part 2 can be created, much like Shippuden.

But I stand my ground - IchigoRukia forever. Maybe Orihime should just end up with Ulquiorra?

Langus

2008-04-18, 18:33

From what I can tell, he's been trying to be neutral when it comes to the argument. At least he's trying to actually argue intelligently instead of grasping for straws.

P.S.- Did you ever think that the reason why there isn't any outward romantic fluff between Ichigo and Rukia is because it's not in their character? If KT drew Ichigo and Rukia hugging and saying "I love you" in front of other characters, I'd just quit reading/watching Bleach. There are outwardly romantic intentions from Inoue because she's more open about it. It's in her character, but not in Ichigo or Rukia's.

Capiche?

Thanks ;)

And you make an interesting point. As female lead characters, Rukia and Orihime are very different personality wise. Rukia has more of a "one of the guys" attitude, I'm assuming because of her upbrining surrounded by a gang of boys in Rukongai while Orihime is more of a "girlie girl" (this is NOT to demean her character in ANY way - just pointing out that she is drawn, acts and speaks in a more gentile feminine way than Rukia does). An Ichigo Orihime pairing would likely be a lot more "fluffy" with blushes, "I love you"s, cute awkward silences etc while I think an Ichigo Rukia one would be more blunt since I can't see Rukia as the type of girl who would appreciate those kinds of subtleties in a relationship. If Ichigo gave her flowers she'd probably ask him why he wasted his money but if he confided something personal about himself (his feelings, etc.) she'd be all over it.

Kakashi-san: First of all, I ADORE your avatar *Kakashi ftw!* I will not succumb to this whole Rukia Orihime YOU MUST PICK A SIDE based on peer pressure. If you really must strong arm a pairing from me I'll give you this one -

ADULT NEL!

She's hot, she adores him and he likes her. Pretty much a done deal ;)

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 18:42

It's pretty much speculation that any romance exists at all (beyond Orihime's feelings) :heh:

Plot twist. Aizen has never been totally straight up about his plans. We didn't learn the true purpose of Rukia's execution until the very end of the arc. Aizen led everyone to believe that the power of the Soukyoku was the reason when it really had nothing to do with that. There doesn't seem to be a reason to suspect him of lying, but that's what makes a plot twist unpredictable.

Nel had statements that contradict that contradiction.

Is it too late? Many of the moments IchiXRukia supporters are fond of referencing don't come until the end of the SS arc from the confrontation on Soukyoku hill onwards. Even though things are probably wrapping up, there's a lot that could happen. I doubt there'll be anything that proves a pairing one way or another, but things could become more "gray" after this.

...or not. I think these upcoming chapters will tell a lot.

Thank you Sabaku... I've been saying most of this for soo... long... I feel like a damn record player...

You guys can feel free to accept Aizens words, I don't. I don't trust the slimy bastard. I'll just keep watching and not do a "wtf?!" again when it comes to him.

Aizen has no reason to recapture Inoue, no reason to broadcast the things he said. No reason to leave Ulq. behind, since everyone is trapped anyway, especially when he say he'll be back to deal with them personally. Aizen could've waited 10 mins for Ulq to return and bring him along. Everything Aizen is doing is pure contradiction. Nothing is making sense.

@Sinta

I thought I made it clear that I do agree that ichirukia is more popular. I never denied it. But that doesn't change the fact that Ichihime is popular too. Even if its less popular. Not a difficult concept to understand right?

And what? AMV's and Fanarts don't matter? Uh... yeah it does. It shows that its popular. Polls are inaccurate depiction. I don't participate in polls. Wheres my count at? I'm sure theres thousands maybe even millions who are fans of their respective sides, that don't vote. If they don't mean anything, then whos making the AMVs, Fanarts? A ghost of a dead ichihime fan?

And the Shuffle thing was just an example by least popular still winning, not on which the circumstances that occur. And no, I don't think Asa felt natural, not the least bit. Her story flowed just like everyone else, it played out like a dating Sim, and the main character had choices and he went with the Asa ending, period.

@Langus, dude theres no shame in being an IchiRukia shipper, just admit it. All of your past post points to it. I know I ship Ichihime. I don't deny it, nor am I ashame of it.

X_Danny_X

2008-04-18, 19:39

Sinta

2008-04-18, 19:47

HY,

I guess all i can say is popular is a relative term. Less popular more popular...you want me to say both are popular but it doesn't matter we were comparing. Are there fans of Inoue/Ichigo, yes we can agree to that. What I was saying in the context of your original "business" argument is that ichigo and rukia is far more popular pairing so if they were trying to change bleach for a business advantage it would make sense to do with Ichigo and Rukia. It has alot more fans. If you want to get bogged down in the techincals of "popular" also. you can do that. But popularity in this aspect is a relative term, as we were comparing them in the context of the original argument.

Polls are far more accurate in determining popularity. If a poll is done correctly then you can assume there is a sample size that is representive of the total population. The pairing poularity for bleach was done with more then 20,000 votes through a computer that tracked an I.P. (This is what i was told; I don't know for sure) Polls are not perfect, i am will the first to admit that, but Its far more reliable then fan arts in determining popularity. Fanarts and AMVs, They could all be done by one person or no one at all maybe a computer is kicking them. They could be done by people who like both pairings or even hate the pairing and just like to draw. Not every one makes fan art or amv either. Just like you saying you didn't vote, I can say i have never made a fan art. Both ways of tracking have flaws. So we need to look at which is most reliable. The polls are most reliable.

You see i liked the fact that they picked Asa, it was fun to see the transition. It wasn't perfect but if you go back and watch it you can see it. I think you do have something with dating sim type thing. Rin was a blank kind of character, but most harem peeps are.

Endrance

2008-04-18, 19:51

Orihime/Ichigo pairing is in the lead since one half already admitted to liking the other half, however i doubt there will be a finish line for any pairing.
Because one person admits there feelings that makes it have the lead? last time i checked it takes to people to make it take the lead so until ichigo shows signs of feelings for orihime its still a blank slate

HayashiTakara

2008-04-18, 20:01

Actually votes go by accounts if its online. you can have 3 accounts and vote with all 3 and thats 3 votes from one person. Some people I've seen have like 10 alts, and thats 10 votes for 1 person. Its too inaccurate. Mail in votes are just as hackable. Just make up an address and name and vote. Sadly some people are fanatical enough to do that. Thinking back on GTO when Onizuka and the manager did a million votes each, it was lol.

kagato3

2008-04-19, 02:24

Because one person admits there feelings that makes it have the lead? last time i checked it takes to people to make it take the lead so until ichigo shows signs of feelings for orihime its still a blank slate

Well, considering we still have no real clue if Rukia is even intrested in Ichigo. Yes it does put a Orihime-Ichigo pairing in the lead. So far from what I have seen and read Rukia treats Ichigo just the same as she did/does Renji the only time she acts diffrently seems to be when he reminds her of Kaien, who some of the Rukia-Ichigo faction claim she was not in love with. There are even times when a case can be made that Rukia is a Ichigo-Orihime suporter.

Langus

2008-04-19, 02:48

Screw Rukia and Orihime...NEL FOR THE WIN! Who's with me? (Adult Nel...NOT Chibi Nel!) I started saying this as a joke...but sadly I saw actual Nel Ichigo AMVs on YouTube today.

I think we need to start a new shipping league! Give all the Rukia/Orihime shippers something united to squabble over.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 03:03

Actually Ichigo with his Hollow mask tied to a stick is pretty hot too

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 05:29

From what I can tell, he's been trying to be neutral when it comes to the argument. At least he's trying to actually argue intelligently instead of grasping for straws.

P.S.- Did you ever think that the reason why there isn't any outward romantic fluff between Ichigo and Rukia is because it's not in their character? If KT drew Ichigo and Rukia hugging and saying "I love you" in front of other characters, I'd just quit reading/watching Bleach. There are outwardly romantic intentions from Inoue because she's more open about it. It's in her character, but not in Ichigo or Rukia's.

Capiche?

Hypocritical coming from someone who finds a way to speculate that Inoue doesn't love Ichigo.

I understand the second part but I still find it strange that after 300+ chapters there's been no clear expression from either of them. Ever though that the reason they don't express their love is because they actually don't see eachother the way you think?

Kakashi-san: First of all, I ADORE your avatar *Kakashi ftw!* I will not succumb to this whole Rukia Orihime YOU MUST PICK A SIDE based on peer pressure. If you really must strong arm a pairing from me I'll give you this one -

ADULT NEL!

She's hot, she adores him and he likes her. Pretty much a done deal ;)

Thanks! I'm glad someone likes it :D. I wasn't saying you have to pick a side I'm saying you will at least prefer a side and most likely end up supporting it. If you plan to be neutral throughout then that's good but you might notice a trend in which the comparisons you make will be supporting IchiRuki and not IchiHime. That's what I think anyway.

Screw Rukia and Orihime...NEL FOR THE WIN! Who's with me? (Adult Nel...NOT Chibi Nel!) I started saying this as a joke...but sadly I saw actual Nel Ichigo AMVs on YouTube today.

I think we need to start a new shipping league! Give all the Rukia/Orihime shippers something united to squabble over.

woot woot! Nel is so hot! I guess she is a contender though a weak one :p

Present for Nell fans...

http://b.imagehost.org/t/0541/Nell_Exile_playtime_by_hidrico_6.jpg (http://b.imagehost.org/view/0541/Nell_Exile_playtime_by_hidrico_6.jpg)

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 08:57

I actually came up with a little challenge, I wonder if anyone would accept it. Ok, heres the challenge;

Choose a maximum of 5 examples to convince someone who isn't a bleach fan of your side, whether it be Ichihime or IchiRukia. It can be 5 episodes / scenes from the anime or 5 chapters / scenes from the manga. Use as little verbal input as possible. The only thing that should convince them is the examples and nothing else. It should give them a feeling that theres something going on and it'll end up being the likely pair.

I think it'll be an interesting challenge to see what kind of examples will come up with. So... up for the challenge? We can even find someone who is neutral enough to have make comments on the examples to make it more interesting.

The purpose? I suppose its to see how evident the pairing really is. If the few examples given are enough to convince a "passerby" it'll more or less show where the author is going. As we who already have a preference have scewed perception of whats going on, whether we want to admit to it or not.

morgus

2008-04-19, 09:11

If you want to show where the author is going, should'nt it just be stuff taken from the manga?

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 09:26

Same thing as far as I'm concerned, some people have trouble understanding just words and still images. Seeing things in motion with atmosphere is more convincing to most people out there then just looking at a still shot with some text in it. I know plenty of people who don't like reading, me being one of them... which is ironic in many ways, lol.

morgus

2008-04-19, 09:49

So do you mean scenes that are in the manga and anime, or could someone use something from the fillers? Because I think that you should only be able to use something from the anime if it is in the manga. Does that make any sense?

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 09:53

Basically you're scared that the IchiHime hand holding scene would make it an easy win, understandably.

morgus

2008-04-19, 09:57

You got me.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 10:30

Anything that is produced by the licensee is considered Canonical, no matter how much we may not like or agree with it. The only time its not canon is when its fan produced or third partied. So even fillers in the anime are considered canon. Yes even the mod souls. Not everyone reads manga, I've seen in several message boards and comments from anime only viewers that have no idea that the upcoming arc in the anime is actually filler and not manga material. Only manga viewers bitch about it. Its the same as novel readers who bitch about movie adaptions. So again, everything is canon, in both anime and manga.

bill200

2008-04-19, 10:45

I see problems with both pairings. The problem I see with the IchiXHime pair is the lack of time they have actually spent with each other that they could actually talk about things. On the other side, IchiXRuki has had some time to develop a relationship, and even though they are close, they are still only friends.

The two times Orihime has had some time to talk with Ichigo he has either not been listening or asleep. She had some time to talk with him when he was training with the vizard, but the topic was really only about Aizen. The other time she confessed her love, but he was asleep. I'll talk about the last scene at the end.

With the IchiXRuki pair, Rukia has learned a good deal about Ichigo's character, and knows what to say to him. They have had a good amount of time with each other. Every time Rukia goes to the real world she stays in his house. She finally believes in him, which it took the whole SS arc for her to come to that conclusion. However, with all of this, they are only friends. Could it become more? Yes, however, the same goes with IchiXHime. You give either girl more time with Ichigo and he could end up with either.

Now for the hand holding. I am going to put this in spoiler, because the manga takes a very different approach to that scene.
In the manga, he askes if Orihime is hurt, then he says thank you, then he slings her over his shoulder to go save Rukia! Not really a romantic scene. During Ichigo's fight with grimmjow Orihime at first harmed Ichigo, and then she helped him. Many of Ichigo's enemies have told him that his desire for power will separate him from his friends, and that he would loose them. Orihime acted like he was another person when he put on that mask, bringing to light his fear of that happening. After getting beat up, and Nel setting Orihime straight, she realized it was still Ichigo. Ichigo told her thank you after the fight, because she trusted him, and if he could convince Orihime, he could convince anyone, and he would never have to doubt his friends. The hand holding did not portray that at all. I am not angry that the anime staff is pushing IchigoXOrihime, but they did mess up the point of that whole fight.
With all that said, the author could go either way with this. If the author wished, he could send Rukia back to soul society (an easy thing to do)and he could start giving Orihime and Ichigo time together, so they could build a relationship. It could go the other way too, Rukia could realize her feelings for Ichigo (also easy)and they could push their relationship to the next level. The only thing for certain now is that Ichigo views both of them as his friends, and nothing more. I do have an opinion on which one should be with Ichigo, but that is only an opinion. I hope this helps.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 10:53

I see problems with both pairings. The problem I see with the IchiXHime pair is the lack of time they have actually spent with each other that they could actually talk about things. On the other side, IchiXRuki has had some time to develop a relationship, and even though they are close, they are still only friends.
The two times Orihime has had some time to talk with Ichigo he has either not been listening or asleep. She had some time to talk with him when he was training with the vizard, but the topic was really only about Aizen. The other time she confessed her love, but he was asleep. I'll talk about the last scene at the end.
With the IchiXRuki pair, Rukia has learned a good deal about Ichigo's character, and knows what to say to him. They have had a good amount of time with each other. Every time Rukia goes to the real world she stays in his house. She finally believes in him, which it took the whole SS arc for her to come to that conclusion. However, with all of this, they are only friends. Could it become more? Yes, however, the same goes with IchiXHime. You give either girl more time with Ichigo and he could end up with either.
Now for the hand holding. I am going to put this in spoiler, because the manga takes a very different approach to that scene.
In the manga, he askes if Orihime is hurt, then he says thank you, then he slings her over his shoulder to go save Rukia! Not really a romantic scene. During Ichigo's fight with grimmjow Orihime at first harmed Ichigo, and then she helped him. Many of Ichigo's enemies have told him that his desire for power will separate him from his friends, and that he would loose them. Orihime acted like he was another person when he put on that mask, bringing to light his fear of that happening. After getting beat up, and Nel setting Orihime straight, she realized it was still Ichigo. Ichigo told her thank you after the fight, because she trusted him, and if he could convince Orihime, he could convince anyone, and he would never have to doubt his friends. The hand holding did not portray that at all. I am not angry that the anime staff is pushing IchigoXOrihime, but they did mess up the point of that whole fight.
With all that said, the author could go either way with this. If the author wished, he could send Rukia back to soul society (an easy thing to do)and he could start giving Orihime and Ichigo time together, so they could build a relationship. It could go the other way too, Rukia could realize her feelings for Ichigo (also easy)and they could push their relationship to the next level. The only thing for certain now is that Ichigo views both of them as his friends, and nothing more. I do have an opinion on which one should be with Ichigo, but that is only an opinion. I hope this helps some.

Good to here something a little more subjective rather than the usual objective statements.

I think people are overestimating how much time Rukia actually had with Ichigo before the S.S. arc, it was like what? 2 months? And the whole time it was her coaching him more or less. And during the entire S.S. arc their interactions were non-existant.

And during the sequence before the HM arc started, even though Rukia technically moved in, it didn't last long a few days at best. Ichigo ended up living with the Vizards, and eventually Rukia went to S.S. with Inoue to train.

With the H.M. Arc, Ichigo and Inoue has had the luxary that Rukia didn't have, and thats face to face interactions during Ichigo's most crucial battles. And her reactions to him, impacted him greatly as we all know.

Anywho, again, appreciate the subjective post :)

Still waiting on those willing to accept that little challenge I posted earlier.

Warchef

2008-04-19, 11:40

Warchef

2008-04-19, 11:46

Hypocritical coming from someone who finds a way to speculate that Inoue doesn't love Ichigo.

It's open to speculation. Her actions throughout the series since her confession have led me to believe that her love may not be love at all. After all, if she really loves him, then why does she doubt him? A relationship needs trust, and to be honest, I don't see it in Inoue's case. If she doubts Ichigo is really there to rescue her, then what about if and when they actually get into a relationship? That'll be disastrous.

I understand the second part but I still find it strange that after 300+ chapters there's been no clear expression from either of them. Ever though that the reason they don't express their love is because they actually don't see eachother the way you think?

It doesn't have to be an "OMG I LOVE YOU ICHIGO/RUKIA" confession. The way they interact with one another is on a whole lot deeper level than just mere friendship. Of all people Inoue sees it. Of course, I'm willing to make a new concession. If Inoue is really in love with Ichigo, which means she understands love more or less, then she should have the clairvoyance to notice that Ichigo and Rukia's relationship is more than mere friendship. If she gets jealous over the fact that Rukia can pull him out of a funk and she can't, then there must be something there that isn't being brought to the surface.

Anywho, it doesn't really matter. What will happen will happen. Support your pairing and I'll support mine and we'll hold the threatening phone calls/emails to Kubo until the series ends.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 11:54

It's open to speculation. Her actions throughout the series since her confession have led me to believe that her love may not be love at all. After all, if she really loves him, then why does she doubt him? A relationship needs trust, and to be honest, I don't see it in Inoue's case. If she doubts Ichigo is really there to rescue her, then what about if and when they actually get into a relationship? That'll be disastrous.

It doesn't have to be an "OMG I LOVE YOU ICHIGO/RUKIA" confession. The way they interact with one another is on a whole lot deeper level than just mere friendship. Of all people Inoue sees it. Of course, I'm willing to make a new concession. If Inoue is really in love with Ichigo, which means she understands love more or less, then she should have the clairvoyance to notice that Ichigo and Rukia's relationship is more than mere friendship. If she gets jealous over the fact that Rukia can pull him out of a funk and she can't, then there must be something there that isn't being brought to the surface.

Anywho, it doesn't really matter. What will happen will happen. Support your pairing and I'll support mine and we'll hold the threatening phone calls/emails to Kubo until the series ends.

Sounds like you've never had a serious relationship... in a committed relationship, there will always be doubt, ups and downs. Nothing is perfect, as humans we are imperfect. Does my fiance lose confidence when she sees me have a female friend? most definately, she told me straight out during an argument once, when I asked her why she's so upset that I had female friends.

Girls are girls, they will lose confidence and become jealous if a guy they like are with another girl in a friendly matter. Guys are the same way, we get jealous if our girlfriends have guy friends.

Its even worse when you're not even involved. When you like someone and you see that someone being friendly with another person, its hard to not feel that you don't stand a chance, he/she is involved already. Its human nature.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 12:08

Basically you're scared that the IchiHime hand holding scene would make it an easy win, understandably.

So now anyone who views manga canon and anime canon as two seperate things is clearly just anti-IchiHime? Despite the fact I've seen plenty of pro-IchiHime fans with similar views on its place in canon? Are they somehow lesser IchiHime fans now?

And before you start accusing me of being anti-ship here know that I've held this view since episode 1 when the anime saw fit to spare the ghost girl Kubo had eaten by the first hollow in the series in the manga. This view was only strengthened by the differences in how Sora became a hollow and the changes to the Memories in the Rain Arc (which I remind you was reanimated in a more true-to source OVA with Kubo voicing Kon).

Unfortunately, some here are just going to dismiss this as another manga purist rant. Why am I wrong for viewing all adaptations as seperate from the original source? :(

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 12:14

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 12:21

It all depends on your stand point really. Are you going to call an anime viewer only stupid, because they don't read the manga, nor care to read it? No, not at all. But saying you know better just because you read the manga, only makes you arrogant.

I call an anime only viewer ignorant, not stupid, which is not neccesarily a bad thing in my eyes.

How is saying your view that both are canon and if you don't like then too bad any less arrogant? Would you still view it like that even if Ichi/Rukia bits were inserted as well? What about IchiHime fans who also view it as great filler but having no relevence to the manga no matter how nice it would be?

And you never answered my question about whether this applies to all adaptations no matter how crappy they may be or just the ones you like.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 12:31

You're not wrong, no one is.

Its only ignorance to a degree. And yes, if they replaced Inoue with Rukia, it'll be the same. In fact, if Rukia was in Inoue's shoes right now, there wouldn't be a debate about these pairings would there? And If they showed a "filler" scene with Rukia holding Ichigo's hands, I'm 100% certain Rukia fans will be ranting and raving as much as Hime's fans.

Both are canonical in my viewpoint as I'm trying to stay as subjectional as possible to the general audience. I don't read a lot of manga, Bleach is one of 3 manga's I read. So therefore, I am in the position of understanding what its like to be an anime only viewer and I would sympathize with the anime only viewers of this show.

But, I do find it annoying when someone comes off as arrogant, just because they read the novel version. There will always be differences, and the choices that are made are concious thought out choices on the studio's part, its not something random they pulled out of their asses, so I give it the benefit of the doubt. As mentioned earlier we don't know how much involvement Kubo has in the anime's production. If the director of the tv series is worth anything he'll seek out Kubo and gain his input, to realize his "vision".

Goiz

2008-04-19, 13:06

Here's how it goes:

When Aizen is defeated everybody goes back home. Rukia will be in Soul Society again chillin' with Byakuya. Ichigo will be in school again with Orihime. Yes they do end up together, but that won't last very long because of the fact that Ichigo will go insane with the whining emo Inoue. So Ichigo dumps her after a few weeks.

A little bit later Matsumoto appears in front of Ichigo. Matsumoto is kicked out of Soul Society for fooling around with a kid (that would be Hitsugaya) and she has nowhere to go. So she can sty with Ichigo for a while. And yes, one thing will lead to another.

So I'm very sorry, but Ichigo x Rukia and Ichigo x Inoue are both the wrong answer. :p

Quite an imagination eh? :heh:

Sinta

2008-04-19, 13:11

I think the conversation is losing focus here because people are getting rapped up in unimportant details. True be told, whether the you consider the anime "canon" or not is irrelevant to what we are discussing. It also doesn't really matter what people subjectively want to rant and rave about. What's important is the common ground and most reilable evidence in determing the likelihood of pairings as that is what we are dicussing. When it comes to differences between the anime and manga, the question isn't whether this is cannon or not, but rather, how much weight should be given to this particular fact in determining the likelihood of each pairing? Kubo writes the manga, its his work. That is the source material. The anime could, in theory, go into a different direction, thus far they have refused to do so, as it they are probably making more money just by following kubo's story line. There some details changed for a variety of reasons, (pacing, filler, consistency) but for the most part the story remains the same. This brings us to the difference if the difference is something significant (like a complete reworking of the scene) it shouldn't be given much weight. Why? For the simple reason of, if kubo wanted it to happen that way, he probably would have written it like that. Place in another context, Kubo is working his story, from his story line. The changes that the anime make are not going to affect his story line, especially something as carved out as relationship dynamics between our potential love rivals. If that is the case, which scene should be used when speculating about the future of the relationships? The manga of course. That is why the weight of the scene holds very little in this overall discussion.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 13:22

No one seems to want to take up on the challenge, I don't blame you guys, any subjectional person walking in with limited knowledge on the series, and was given a set number of examples will be convinced on Orihime's side. Orihime's arc is the only arc with solid inclination of romance. Even without the hand holding scene this will weigh true. Prove me wrong, if I am.

We don't know if Kubo ok'd the scene, we discuss this before. We don't know that kubo wanted it to happen, especially if it were to change the dynamics of the characters relationship, perhaps it's a hint for what Kubo has in store for the manga? We don't know, therefore we should weigh everything presented in the anime in equal footing.

Sci-Fi

2008-04-19, 13:26

As I said before, choose whatever pairing you prefer. To keep the story from deviating, almost all stories keep the reader/viewer guessing or make their preferences to what they like to happen. Once a pairing happens 'officially', the series will change...often to the worst...and the focus will be on the 'couple' and the rest of the characters will become sidenotes.

I haven't seen anything 'canon' from Kubo and I doubt there will be any resolution even when the manga ends. Pairings in manga and anime are just fun things "for fans"...no need to blast somebody's preference or pile on the "evidence"....it just causes hard feelings in the community.

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 13:29

Problem is Sinta everything in the manga has already been discussed so it's easy to loose focus and to start talking about something recent and new in the anime. There's nothing objective to talk about. I'll finish the objective conversation - Ichigo has shown signs of affection to both Rukia and Orihime, though the extent of which are both open to speculation. Rukia has shown signs of affection to Ichigo, the extent of which is open to speculation. Orihime has shown that she loves Ichigo, if she really does is open to speculation. There is no clear cut evidence from the manga to suggest at either pairing. Love is mutual so Ichigo would have to return Inoue's feelings. Rukia and Ichigo are either in love or have a strong platonic bond. Everything has another side to the coin. To argue subjectively is the only option, unless everyone wants to repeat themselves over and over again. The most objective view would be that Ichigo will end up with neither girl because he hasn't expressed any clear signs of loving either.

@Sci-Fi: That's true and why Kubo will finalise the pairing towards the end of the manga. He will make both pairings seem possible until the end. That's all there is to it.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 13:37

Thats exactly the point to my challenge, thank you Kakashi.

We need a subjective viewer, and I believe my challenge is the best way to see which side is more convincing. We as fans are already seeing things objectively. And that becomes stagnant and a never ending cycle of redundancy. Having a subjective opinion, would freshen things up.

Sinta

2008-04-19, 13:43

I just saw your challenge...interesting thought. Why don't you do your own challenge and then wait for someone to reply (Like Bleach OD). you make some pretty bold statements lets see if they can be back up.

No one seems to want to take up on the challenge, I don't blame you guys, any subjectional person walking in with limited knowledge on the series, and was given a set number of examples will be convinced on Orihime's side. Orihime's arc is the only arc with solid inclination of romance. Even without the hand holding scene this will weigh true. Prove me wrong, if I am.

If that is the case they why aren't most people convinced? Sorry, the fact is the whole of the manga or the totality of the circumstances need to be taken into consideration determining the likelihood of pairings. In that I'm not sure why you would issue such a challenge that ignores that totality.

The anime can't be given equal weight as it contracts the manga. How can you give two scene equal weight if they contradict one another? That doesn't make any sense. If evidence contradicts itself you pick the one that is the most reliable and go from there.

We weren't talking about objectivity Kakashi-san, an adovcate doesn't have to be objective just logical, I was talking about creditability and reliability of evidence. Evidence is what points our theorys to a probable outcome. If you don't use good/reasonable evidence then your conclusion will probably be wrong as well. Lets say you take your conclusion from something you saw on the internet, a rumor for example. You heard from another, that they heard that kubo was going to make Ichigo/Inoue Canon. What do you think is the first question people are going to ask if you post this as evidence to your conclusion? They will ask, is the source creditable? Creditability in the weighing of evidence is always important; actual its the most important. That is what I was talking about. I am saying that using evidence that is removed for the manga casts doubt on the creditability of that evidence. This is even more true if that evidence contradicts something from the primary source.

I really should let you now as I need to study for my finals. I will take this all with you later. Have fun.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 13:47

gorgeous moth

2008-04-19, 13:55

I recently rewatched Bleach musical and my sister, who endured to watch it because there was nohing else good to watch, remarked, "Does it end with Ichigo and Rukia together?", and another, "How does Ichigo really feel towards Rukia?"

My sister has only watched and reverently followed only 2/3 animes in her life and that doesn't include Bleach.

Sad thing is, I don't know the answers :heh:

Sinta

2008-04-19, 14:05

The challenge isn't a challenge without comparisons. No? If I were to draw out both Rukia's and Orihime's scenes, you Rukia fans are gonna attack me for choosing that particular scene. How about I issue that challenge to you then Sinta? I bet, I'll win too. If I lose, I'll do a Rukia fan art, and not one that'll downplay her, but rather a good one. You don't have to do anything, just accept that from a subjectional point of view, that Orihime is indeed in a better position.

First subjectional in a better position? I'm not sure what that means. YOu will have to explain what you mean by that. Are you trying to apply a subjective standard? Because i'm pretty sure that a subjective standard doesn't matter. Its should be measured against an objective standard of reasonableness, not actually what you believe to be true, but what a reasonable person in the circumstance would believe to be true. Kubo is probably writing it with a objective standard in him. He wants people to understand his story after all. Are you trying to say that people who doesn't care about shippering will think that Inoue is more likely? If that is the case then why do most people who aren't shippers argee with that? I seriously doubt you will win. Inoue isn't in a good position. (Though determing a winner will probably be just as subjective as the rest) If she was people would acknowledge that. I would. Ok i will take up your challenge, but it will have to wait. As I should really be studying for finals. You make your argument, but don't post it yet. (though you put me at a disadvantage considering how verbose I am) When i am done with finals I will take your challenge up.

I will leave for real this time. Later.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 14:10

Yes, Subjectional is a better point of view. As I mentioned several times before, we as fans are already seeing things in an objectional vantage point. Having someone from the outside look in, with whatever examples we may have, is a good way to try and rationalize what the intent is for the character interactions.

Warchef

2008-04-19, 14:18

WTH?!

Come on, we are all being civil?

Where is the flame war?!

Flame on...

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 14:39

Since you're busy Sinta I'll resond to you when you're free from work. Just to say in this case probablilty won't involve math. This is love, relationships and romance we're talking about. So the whole probability thing is flawed. Probabilty doesn't rule love. I spent 10 days with a girl I didn't love her, then I saw a girl for one second and it was love at first site. I don't see how your probabilty could weigh more then someone elses, as long as the other person explains why in their view their 'evidence' is worth more. Everyone's view of love changes. The way I think you look at it is that because the most amount of time has been spent focused on Ichigo and Rukia overall, their pairing is more likely. They have more scenes devoted to them so of course with higher quantity it's easier to analyse and find signs.

To be honest I thought during the SS arc Rukia and Ichigo was the painfully obvious pairing. Even though I couldn't care less. Despite that even after he saves Rukia nothing new develops, I mean what was so different pre SS and after SS. They still act the same way to eachother, surely something would have changed, in a romantic sence. Then there's Inoue's confession and that got me thinking.

Let's compare HM and SS. Ichigo saves Rukia he throws her at Renji, funny but not exactly caring. In HM Ichigo saves Inoue and then carries her down (quite gently in comparison to Rukia). Ichigo and Inoue have much more potential because HM is still an ongoing arc. He's going to save her again and fight Ulquiorra. If nothing happens there then I will begin to question if anything will ever happen, but this is the time where all IchiRukiers should be most worried.

I would like to see the results of Hayashi's challenge even though I know that IchiHime will win. Sorry to bring in my brothers again but they are teenagers and do not analyse the romance aspect. One reads the manga and thinks IchiHime or IchiNell (:heh:) and the other just the anime and thinks IchiHime. They hardly spare a thought for Rukia anymore. To them she's useless, she's on the floor, no major role to play anymore. So someone who subconsciouslly has a subjective view would think IchiHime.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 14:51

I was more or less in the same boat as you Kakashi, I was pretty sure that Rukia and Ichigo was going to be a pair from the first episode. But, it didn't really interest me that much, she was a meh character IMO, I was more interested in Ichigo kicking ass at the time. But, I was interested to see how much will change between Ichigo and Rukia though, but nothing did, everything remained the same.

Then I started noticing Inoue's crush, and I started thinking.. hm.. thats cute, oh well maybe its nothing. Then after S.S. instead of focusing on a change in Ichigo and Rukia relationship dynamics, they decided to shift focus on Orihime's feelings for Ichigo, I was blown away at that point. I was like wait.. wasn't the romantic stuff suppose to happen between Rukia and Ichigo? As the series progressed, the whole Ichihime thing caught my attention. I do enjoy a good mushy romance in my action filled stories now and then.

I started questioning, why Kubo decided to make the shift to Inoue, and I remember someone mentioning that in an interview, he was going to make Inoue a second Heroine in conjunction to Rukia. Which he did, Rukia is now doing Orihime's role in S.S., except without the worrying about Ichigo part. From the confession on, I was sold on Ichihime, and it further solidified as the series went on.

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 15:09

Our thought processes were pretty much the same, honestly we're like clones when it comes to Bleach, Hayashi. Though I'm sure many others who were just watching for the action and not particularly looking for romance feel the same as well.

I saw Ichigo and Rukia as the romantic pairing at first but now as the comedic pairing. They are funny but I just don't feel the romance. I think despite Ichigo being a complete blockhead he wouldn't be that suprised at Inoue having a crush on him and he has a soft spot for Inoue, like she's a precious diamond, so things could happen :D

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 15:16

Haha, yeah my thoughts exactly Kakashi.

People seems to like the excuse that Ichigo treats Inoue differently because she's too sweet/nice/whatever. But, don't men in general treat the women they care about differently from everyone else? I know I do. People have different faces for different people, you have one where you show to your friends, another to your family, and another to the one you love. Its only natural.

Edit: anyway I'll be back in a few hours, I got stuffs to do, so I'll be back to comment more laters. So laters peoples. (b '_')b

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 16:01

If nothing happens there then I will begin to question if anything will ever happen, but this is the time where all IchiRukiers should be most worried.

Actually, most are looking forward to the next chapters in the present timeline because SJ saw fit to announce Ichigo and Rukia would be reuniting in a few chapters.

Also.

Problem is Sinta everything in the manga has already been discussed so it's easy to loose focus and to start talking about something recent and new in the anime

If there's nothing left to discuss then let the topic die until something does comes up. It's that simple.

I've always viewed the anime of many manga series as glorified commercials to get people to read the manga. And there are so many discrepencies between the two versions that trying to form a uniform canon is virtually impossible without choosing which ones to use, something I doubt anyone would agree on (and agreement is paramount here). This is why every other pairing debate I've come across has all sides agreeing to just manga evidence. I don't know why that is such an issue here.

Kubo has the most control with the manga and that makes evidence and such from it more valid than the anime, no matter how well animated it is.

Call me arrogant all you like, if if using the demonizing argument against me is all you can do then feel free to do it.

People have different faces for different people, you have one where you show to your friends, another to your family, and another to the one you love. Its only natural.

That is quite true really. Like all the looks here for example.

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5123/tenderlooksvj9.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tenderlooksvj9.png)

Anyone want to help compile more looks Ichigo gives different people? I've compiled others like this one someone else made and asked what people think of how Ichigo's looking at someone. Lost them to a virus unfortunately. I always get a laugh when they say the looks he's sending Grimmjow are the most romantic without any prior knowledge of who he is looking at :heh:

Manga shots only please since Kubo sometimes draws things a certain way like the shadow effect in #2 and #5, which he says serves to add emphasis.

Sabaku Kyu

2008-04-19, 16:12

The anime can't be given equal weight as it contracts the manga. How can you give two scene equal weight if they contradict one another? That doesn't make any sense. If evidence contradicts itself you pick the one that is the most reliable and go from there.

Really? Because Bleach OD referenced plenty of anime scenes to support RukiaXIchi, and not just scenes based on the canon storyline, but material from the Bount arc which is complete filler.

@ Royal Devil
I agree. Anime-only material, even when it's based on the manga storyline, isn't exactly 100% canon. Scenes are generally added in to expand on the story. The anime team might add a couple extra attacks to a fight to make it more exciting or if a scene is supposed to be emotional, they might add some scenes that make it more touching. The hand-holding scene in at the end of ep167 is definitely an example of the latter.

However this is an embellishment and not a contradiction. The anime team generally only puts in elements they believe work with the storyline, they don't add elements with no plausibility.

I would like to see the results of Hayashi's challenge even though I know that IchiHime will win.

Hayashi's challenge sounds interesting, but really it seems that between Bleach OD and kagato plenty of scenes supporting either side been have posted already. Really, every scene has been analyzed and debated to a standstill. I'm afraid the challenge is only going to bring up those arguments again.

But like you said, as far as quantity of material, Rukia will win hands down as she's featured way more than Orihime for most of the manga.

But still, I like the idea Hayashi. I'm also curious to see the results of your challenge. :cool:

HaNa-san

2008-04-19, 16:14

Kakashi san

If you want to be fair enough, you have to consider the whole manga, not only focusing on one arc like what are doing (even though I don't see anything between ichiori in hm arc to be worried about) if we count them, then it would be three arc to ichiruki side (karakura, ss and arrancer arc) ichiori has (hm arc, it includes some ichiruki moments though) so the winning side is ichiruki SO FAR…saying orihime is the lead just because she expressed her feeling out loudly is so ignorant to ichiruki…the important thing is that you didn't consider Ichigo's feeling..lets say he's in love with rukia (orihime's jealousy, doubted about his true goal while she was so sure he came to rescue rukia in ss, his actions, she wasn't able to kiss him..etc) then how possible he can return her feeling? If the possibility is so low, then why have all of this confidence about this pairing..orihime's feeling wouldn't matter to ichigo if he's already in love with rukia…therefore, before jumping to your conclusion saying ichiori will win for sure, please consider these things..

As for your brothers, you said they didn't think of rukia as a rival figure to ichiori just because she's bleeding in the floor, did they seriously read and watch the whole story, because it seems as if they just focused on few scenes..

As for romantic definition, you have to understand what kind of romantic aspect that kubo and the Japanese culture have taking into account the environment, the traditions and story which talks about Japan (wearing kimono, having festivals, the kiss is a big deal (kon chapter)..etc) so of course the romance will have a Japanese style ..Read kubo's songs for example, he wrote an ichiruki song in the "memories in the rain" in a romantic way..also, he spends time drawing them together in some color spreads in the manga and the cover of calendar 2007 it's so ichiruki..all of these canon staff came directly from the author hands..some of them even are recent which implies that he didn't forget about them.. What's the point of doing all of these staff, if he was aiming toward ichiori, it really doesn't make any sense..

That's why we see ichiruki is still in the lead..you're free to agree or disagree, but I hope that you'll be more fair and considered when you argue about both pairing. Downplay ichiruki moments is just like saying kubo has wasted all of 120 chapters without developing ichiruki relationship since kurakura arc or ss arc..

Last not least, my sister and my friend watch bleach just for the plot and they see ichiruki..my sister said ichigo feeling is so obvious unlike rukia, she's hard to notice..she said she might have a feeling toward ichigo but not in the same level as his love toward her..my friend thinks the same too..

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 16:23

Royal Devil (what a nice name :p)

I don't remember ever callying you arrogant or saying that you're a manga elitist type. Maybe you are who cares. I agree the manga is the rule, that's not to say the anime is completely worthless.

Hayashi was referring literally to the his actual facial expression but to the way he acts towards Rukia and Orihime.

As for Ichigo's and Rukia's reunion, if it is to happen in the next few chapters then that would be bad news for you. Ichigo's on the way to save Orihime and if he reunites with Rukia in between, it's not exactly going to be a lovey dovey scene, he's kinda in a hurry.

Ichigo and Grimmjow are very similar in that they love fighting except they have different reasons to fight. Grimmjow began to understand that towards the end of their fight. Grimmjow is the biggest threat to both pairings though with those pants :heh:

give me a moment Hana-san I'm really tired but you make some good points I'll try answer you soon.

HaNa-san

2008-04-19, 16:35

take your time kakashi ..I Just felt, it's necessary to write these points ^^

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 16:38

However this is an embellishment and not a contradiction. The anime team generally only puts in elements they believe work with the storyline, they don't add elements with no plausibility.

Or to make a smooth transition to fillers in this case since I would have preffered Nnoitra's "rape time" grin done all up in red instead. :D

And that's still choosing which ones you want to use. My view is if no one can agree on what screens to use, don't use them at all and stick with manga panels. I viewed OD's big post full of anime screenshots the same I did the ones your sides uses. I dismissed the part in the anime where they felt the need to flashback to Grimmjow stabbing Rukia during the Ichi/Grim fight for example.

Kakashi:

I don't remember ever callying you arrogant or saying that you're a manga elitist type. Maybe you are who cares. I agree the manga is the rule, that's not to say the anime is completely worthless.

That was directed at Hayashi not you. But I do view the anime as completely worthless for discussions like this. Sorry

Ichigo's on the way to save Orihime and if he reunites with Rukia in between, it's not exactly going to be a lovey dovey scene, he's kinda in a hurry.

Depends on how Kubo does it. The most popular one being speculated now is that Ichigo has to fight his way through legions of fodder arrancar to get to the sixth tower and when he practially buried in them they all suddenly freeze up and crumble. Then Ichigo looks to the source, which will result in a double spread of him and Rukia just looking at each other and some quick dialog that only Kubo could do justice. Then they'll both continue over to where Inoue is (perhapes meeting up with others on the way) and we get the chapter title "United Front Three: Black and White." After all we need someone besides Ichigo to fight Yammy when he finally shows up to help Ulquiorra.

I honestly do not believe Ichigo vs Ulquiorra will stay one-on-one. Most likely Grimmjow will come in the for the assist after being healed by 4th division like the privion Chad fought and Ichigo will send him many looks that'll send yaoi fangirls' hearts aflutter

Sinta

2008-04-19, 16:46

Really? Because Bleach OD referenced plenty of anime scenes to support RukiaXIchi, and not just scenes based on the canon storyline, but material from the Bount arc which is complete filler.

I am not Bleach Od, you will have to take that up with her, but in her defense it is also different. She acknowleges her own bais. She also takes notes of "evidences" that are specific and how they are changed depending on the source. She often talks about how the animators ship ichigo and rukia and those filler scenes prove it. In using the anime or the manga, there isn't a problem when they show the same thing. if they are the same then it doesn't matter which one you use. The problem develops when they are different or contradicting, that is when your "best evdience" analysis comes about. As for me, i always use the manga. its the best evidence.

Kakashi

2008-04-19, 16:56

If you want to be fair enough, you have to consider the whole manga, not only focusing on one arc like what are doing (even though I don't see anything between ichiori in hm arc to be worried about) if we count them, then it would be three arc to ichiruki side (karakura, ss and arrancer arc) ichiori has (hm arc, it includes some ichiruki moments though) so the winning side is ichiruki SO FAR…

I'm not too sure having more arcs is in your favour. I mean Rukia and Ichigo have had so many arcs to become romantic but have yet to do so. Like I said I was all for IchiRuki during SS but many chapters have passed and I began to question will something ever happened.

saying orihime is the lead just because she expressed her feeling out loudly is so ignorant to ichiruki…the important thing is that you didn't consider Ichigo's feeling..lets say he's in love with rukia (orihime's jealousy, doubted about his true goal while she was so sure he came to rescue rukia in ss, his actions, she wasn't able to kiss him..etc) then how possible he can return her feeling? If the possibility is so low, then why have all of this confidence about this pairing..orihime's feeling wouldn't matter to ichigo if he's already in love with rukia…therefore, before jumping to your conclusion saying ichiori will win for sure, please consider these things..

I don't think Ichigo and Orihime will win for sure in the manga. I was talking about Hayashi's challenge, basically the more casual Bleach watchers see Ichigo and Orihime as the more obvious pairing because of Inoue's confession. Inoue symbolises the romantic aspect in Bleach, without her very few people would be having this discussion in the first place. I never thought about romance in Bleach before that confession, I even liked the idea of Ichigo and Rukia being together but I never actually cared or thought about it much. Now I prefer IchiOri a lot more then IchiRuki but I wouldn't hate IchiRuki. I think it would be a unique pairing.

As for your brothers, you said they didn't think of rukia as a rival figure to ichiori just because she's bleeding in the floor, did they seriously read and watch the whole story, because it seems as if they just focused on few scenes..

Yes reason being they focus on the flow of the story not what happened 200 chapters ago.

As for romantic definition, you have to understand what kind of romantic aspect that kubo and the Japanese culture have taking into account the environment, the traditions and story which talks about Japan ...What's the point of doing all of these staff, if he was aiming toward ichiori, it really doesn't make any sense..

I don't know much about Japanese culture but I'm willing to bet Hayashi does and he doesn't see it as a big deal. IchiRuki might naturally be more popular in Japan because Rukia initially played a bigger role then Orihime in the manga. Orihime's role has steadily grown and is right now at least, much more important then Rukia. I've read many times that she is becoming more popular but what does popularity really mean anyway? Ulquiorra was 9th in the popularity poles while Hinamori was like 6th. Does that mean Hinamori will play a more important role then Ulquiorra? I don't like the popularity argument.

That's why we see ichiruki is still in the lead..you're free to agree or disagree, but I hope that you'll be more fair and considered when you argue about both pairing. Downplay ichiruki moments is just like saying kubo has wasted all of 120 chapters without developing ichiruki relationship since kurakura arc or ss arc..

I consider both pairings believe me Hana, I just don't bother with IchiRuki since there are already people arguing their case. I prefer IchiHime so I try to argue for them. I do not downplay IchiRuki moments. Ichigo and Rukia have a very special relationship indeed, I like their exhchanges they can be hilarious (especially Rukia's drawings) but I don't see them in a romantic relationship. Everything I loved about them would have changed and they would be unnaturally serious etc. Everything that comes with becoming a couple.

Last not least, my sister and my friend watch bleach just for the plot and they see ichiruki..my sister said ichigo feeling is so obvious unlike rukia, she's hard to notice..she said she might have a feeling toward ichigo but not in the same level as his love toward her..my friend thinks the same too..

I'm willing to bet that you've been spreading your IchiRuki propaganda :heh:

Kazuma77

2008-04-19, 17:06

you can't compare Rukia saving arc and Orihime saving arc, because at Rukia's case, there were at least 5 captains waiting for him, and among them it was Byakuya he needed to fight with, in Orihime case, Grimmjow brought her there, unharmed, and she wasn't in a threat of being executed as Rukia was. Thats why he throw her to Renji, to get away from there, because almost everyone wanted her to die at that point... the only logical way is to run if you cant face them.

In Orihime case, Aizen didn't want to kill her, but to use her powers for his own plans... and Ichigo wanted to save her because whole SS conclude she was a traitor and Ichigo couldn't accept that, as every true friend... And if we come to her confession, it doesn't mean he is going to accept it. I like Rukia×Ichigo pairing because she gives him comfort, she incourage ( sorry, don't know the right word for it - sorry for any mistakes) him in battles and when he was freaked out about his hollow side, she calmed him down, and that means a lot to him, and orihime only found out about his hollow in HM arc, which is pretty late, even with her "special" powers....

And if you, Kakashi-san try to pull another prank, i will kick your ass, so don't even try it

Sabaku Kyu

2008-04-19, 17:07

Kakashi san

he spends time drawing them together in some color spreads in the manga and the cover of calendar 2007 it's so ichiruki..all of these canon staff came directly from the author hands..some of them even are recent which implies that he didn't forget about them.. What's the point of doing all of these staff, if he was aiming toward ichiori, it really doesn't make any sense..

I thought the cover of the 2007 calendar was a face painting of Ichigo alone (although I don't own it, I recall seeing it somewhere).

Anyways, the calendar and color spreads... they're mostly based on who's currently being featured in the story, like the volume covers. And characters are often placed with the people they're seen most with in the story. You'll see a lot of Ichigo&Rukia, Gin, Tousen & Aizen, Rukia & Renji spreads, etc. Still, I've haven't seen a spread with just Rukia and Ichigo in a while (these were mostly in the earliest arcs when the other character really hadn't gained a foothold), usually Renji, Ishida, Orihime and Chad are also present

Or to make a smooth transition to fillers in this case since I would have preffered Nnoitra's "rape time" grin done all up in red instead.

And that's still choosing which ones you want to use. My view is if no one can agree on what screens to use, don't use them at all and stick with manga panels. I viewed OD's big post full of anime screenshots the same I did the ones your sides uses. I dismissed the part in the anime where they felt the need to flashback to Grimmjow stabbing Rukia during the Ichi/Grim fight for example.

I agree with you and Sinta. I'm not saying you should consider it as evidence. All I'm saying is that the anime team generally tries to add things that will "fit" to the story (I'm not talking about filler episodes, but episodes based on the manga storyline) even if has no effect whatsoever . But let's leave it that. If you guys only take the manga into consideration, that's good. But Sinta, I don't really see why you take thing such as polls and stories from other manga into account, but not anime scenes.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 17:24

Anyways, the calendar and color spreads... they're mostly based on who's currently being featured in the story, like the volume covers. And characters are often placed with the people they're seen most with in the story. You'll see a lot of Ichigo&Rukia, Gin, Tousen & Aizen, Rukia & Renji spreads, etc. Still, I've haven't seen a spread with just Rukia and Ichigo in a while (these were mostly in the earliest arcs when the other character really hadn't gained a foothold), usually Renji, Ishida, Orihime and Chad are also present

You're right, Kubo generally uses more than two characters for his color spreads. Though Ichigo and Rukia have shared an alternate volume cover for Volume 15

Langus

2008-04-19, 18:27

While you all squabble and take pot shots at each other for "who is the more dedicated Bleach fan" *gag*... I'm going to take the time to answer the previously posted challenge because I can definitely demonstrate that Nel/Ichigo is the most convincing pairing in Bleach *TAKE THAT!*

Question 1.) Which female character (or character in general) has Ichigo spent the MAJORITY of his time in HC with?

The answer would be Nel!

I could post manga scans and reference anime eps but it's the whole arc pretty much so that would be redundant. Many of you have suggested that this arc is the Orihime/Ichigo arc...well you are wrong my friends. The ONLY time these two have been seen together in the entire arc is episodes 164-167 so maybe it's not the Orihime/Ichigo arc then? Hers might come in time, but HC is clearly the Nel/ Ichigo arc. During it they've built up their friendship, risked their lives for one another, and fought side by side just like Ichigo does with all his other women (Orihime and Rukia).

***The rest of this post contains manga spoilers. You've been warned.***

So Ichigo Nel... Am I insane? I think not. Please see the selection of images below...images which CLEARLY show that there is an affectionate bond between Ichigo and Nel, a bond which rivals that of BOTH Rukia and Orihime...

Figure 1.): Nel expresses jealousy towards Rukia. Why would she care unless she's interested in him for herself?
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7791/allplayer20071101141505tj8.png

Figures 2 & 3 (manga chapter 271): Is that a smile on Ichigo's normally brooding face? Looks like he's pretty happy to see Nel...
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000271/03.jpg

Nel cries over Ichigo because she's worried about him getting hurt. Ichigo apologizes and his look can't be described as anything but tender. A true sign of love? Tearful concern for their safety and well being.
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000271/05.jpg

Figure 4.) Manga 276: Another tearful goodbye... Reminiscient to any other tearful goodbyes to a sleeping/dead Ichigo that we know of? Hmmm...
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000276/17.jpg

Figure 5.) Ichigo is pretty quick to jump to Nel's defense. Sort of reminds me of the time he went after Ulquiorra when he mentioned a certain someone's name....Hmmm...
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000290/08.jpg
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000290/10.jpg
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000290/14.jpg

Poor Ichigo...he must really care about Nel to get that worked up about it.

Figure 6.) So Ichigo and Nel...a love that reads more like that of a big brother to a little sister until you see this...
It's concern for Ichigo that brings about Nel's transformation into her true adult form.

Here we see Nel go a step further than either of our other two heroines - she *gasp* EMBRACES him! Scandal! http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000291/09.jpg

And WHOA WHOA! Where is her hand? "I want to show you my thanks"... Nel is a woman who knows what she wants apparently... http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000291/10.jpg

So what about Ichigo? How does he feel about all of this? Well as it turns out...just as ambiguous as he is towards the other two girls... But what could possibly be hotter for Ichigo than a woman who can defend HIM in battle? http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000292/03.jpg Yeah he digs it. Ichigo needs/likes himself a strong woman. Rukia used to be that girl but now that Nel is in the picture it's a whole new ballgame!

:heh::D And I'm done...

HaNa-san

2008-04-19, 18:29

If you really did take your time, it would be better..anyway…

Kakkashi san
I'm not too sure having more arcs is in your favour. I mean Rukia and Ichigo have had so many arcs to become romantic but have yet to do so. Like I said I was all for IchiRuki during SS but many chapters have passed and I began to question will something ever happened.

Their relationship is changing very gradually, that's why it's more believable..and do you really think their relationship didn't change since ss arc?

I don't think Ichigo and Orihime will win for sure in the manga. I was talking about Hayashi's challenge, basically the more casual Bleach watchers see Ichigo and Orihime as the more obvious pairing because of Inoue's confession. Inoue symbolises the romantic aspect in Bleach, without her very few people would be having this discussion in the first place. I never thought about romance in Bleach before that confession, I even liked the idea of Ichigo and Rukia being together but I never actually cared or thought about it much. Now I prefer IchiOri a lot more then IchiRuki but I wouldn't hate IchiRuki. I think it would be a unique pairing.

Inoue symbolizes the romantic aspect in Bleach, so what.. Does that help her wins the pairing issue? I don't think so..as I said before, you have to consider ICHIGO'S FEELING too to judge…many characters suspect ichiruki relationship in the whole manga, but is almost none for ichiori (if I remember, there was a group of people in ss who thought orihime's already taken)

Yes reason being they focus on the flow of the story not what happened 200 chapters ago.

It's their own opinion, it's no use talking about it..

I don't know much about Japanese culture but I'm willing to bet Hayashi does and he doesn't see it as a big deal. IchiRuki might naturally be more popular in Japan because Rukia initially played a bigger role then Orihime in the manga. Orihime's role has steadily grown and is right now at least, much more important then Rukia. I've read many times that she is becoming more popular but what does popularity really mean anyway? Ulquiorra was 9th in the popularity poles while Hinamori was like 6th. Does that mean Hinamori will play a more important role then Ulquiorra? I don't like the popularity argument

I have watched a lot of anime (hundreds of them) and read many mangas, watched many Japanese drama and studied some sides of their culture, so I understand very well what kubo's doing..through his manga, I discovered that he's fond of indirect romance such as uruhara and yourichi, gin and matsumoto and of course ichiruki.. That wouldn't the evidence of ichiruki, but it's important to understand the way the author's thinking to see which way he's going and what kind of romance he's using… therefore, form my point of view, I see ichiruki is in love with each other and have a cute relationship that rarely can be found in some anime, but their romance type is exist. I even saw a similar type of their romance in one of Japanese drama that reminds me of ichiruki..

Orihime becomes more popular, where did you get this information? The only popularity poll we can take is the official manga poll that comes directly to kubo's office.. what kind of role orihime will play is still unknown, I honestly didn't see her does some useful things in hm arc beside healing ichigo ..but we have to wait and see..

I consider both pairings believe me Hana, I just don't bother with IchiRuki since there are already people arguing their case. I prefer IchiHime so I try to argue for them. I do not downplay IchiRuki moments. Ichigo and Rukia have a very special relationship indeed, I like their exhchanges they can be hilarious (especially Rukia's drawings) but I don't see them in a romantic relationship. Everything I loved about them would have changed and they would be unnaturally serious etc. Everything that comes with becoming a couple.

I didn't mean to say stand with ichiruki side as well, but I meant to say have some consideration about their moments in the manga..I'll repeat myself, did you really consider ichigos' feeling before jumping and saying that orihime's in the lead because of her confession?

I'm willing to bet that you've been spreading your IchiRuki propaganda

My friend has read the manga before I know there's a manga named bleach…I started with anime btw.. and my sister is so stubborn, she just listens to her opioion..

Sabaku Kyu
I thought the cover of the 2007 calendar was a face painting of Ichigo alone (although I don't own it, I recall seeing it somewhere)

You're right I wasn't sure..it's the cover of 2008 and that makes it even more recent..here's its picture..kubo featured ichigo's zanpaktou with rukia's shirayuki to make a contrast between the black and white concept..I can't see more canon evidence than this one..

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3430/shirayukizangetsuzd8.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shirayukizangetsuzd8.jpg)

Anyways, the calendar and color spreads... they're mostly based on who's currently being featured in the story, like the volume covers. And characters are often placed with the people they're seen most with in the story. You'll see a lot of Ichigo&Rukia, Gin, Tousen & Aizen, Rukia & Renji spreads, etc. Still, I've haven't seen a spread with just Rukia and Ichigo in a while (these were mostly in the earliest arcs when the other character really hadn't gained a foothold), usually Renji, Ishida, Orihime and Chad are also present

There're some of shounen jump covers as well and some have just the two of them..when they have many characters you usually see ichiruki beside each other..anyway, comparing them to ichiori, they have not even one color spread that featured just the two of them even in her arc..you can say I don't care about them but kubo and the anime do..

edit:
Langus lol you made excellent points...I shall lift up the surrender flag now XD

Warchef

2008-04-19, 19:02

I never thought it was an Ichigo/Inoue centric arc anyway.. LOL

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 19:22

Langus gets my vote for post of the month in this thread.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 20:49

Before anyone else try to get too deep into the whole philosophical thing. I would like to take a minute and shine a light on things.

We Japanese aren't a mystical people with IQs over 200 who sit around all day discussing and reading Philosophy. When we see a cool picture, like those you are talking about in Jump, we don't stop and say, "say Ichinose-kun, what do you suppose this image represents?", "well Kagura-kun, If I were to take a wild guess, it's a symbolic relationship of the sun and the moon." , "by george Ichinose-kun you are right, quite clever that Kubo-sensei.", " yes, quite clever indeed."

Rather, this is reality... "Hey Ichi, check this out." , "Hey thats pretty cool.", "yeah isn't it? I got it the other day.", " Cool, can I see it when you're done with it? ", "sure thing, oh did you hear what happened to the old lady in that creepy old house..."

Thats what a real conversation actually sounds like. I know its hard to imagine... but we're actually human. :face_shock:

well... Rukia doesn't resemble anything like the moon, nor has the moon once been used to represent her, nor is her Zanpaktou white, its actually a shade of fushia. If anything the moon represents Orihime, because.. well... go back and read the manga, or rewatch the anime, nearly every shot she's in where its of dramatics, the moon is looming right behind her. And the whole white and black thing, Orihime got that covered too, look again where Orihime and Ichigo are standing facing eachother, what do you see? ZoMg, white clothes with black lining, and black clothes with white lining, direct opposites of one another fitting perfectly with Kubos intent on opposites of colors bit.

Sorry, but after this far into the series and nothing is shown between Rukia and Ichigo, it won't happen. All emotional scenes which correlates with romance is run by Inoue. If Kubo wanted Rukia to be the important female lead for what is happening, he would've let her get kidnapped instead, he would've given her all the "I love you" lines instead, would've given her all the hints of jealousy instead. But guess what? he didn't. Rukia became another Renji as far as I'm concerned.

Everything that has to do with Rukia is completely ambiguous, saying Rukia is in love with Ichigo, or Ichigo is in love with whoever and saying it like is fact, is complete fallacy and shows arrogance and complete disregard for whats going on.

TBH, I say we take things at face value, the average viewer don't over analyze the way we nut jobs do. Take it in for what it is. Thats why a subjective opinion, in my challenge is important. They take it with face value, and not over analyze.

But yeah... I'll write more later... this was a bit much already... lol.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 21:11

Because I'm sure every Japanese fan sees Bleach the same way you and others you know do right?

Now you're trying to discredit Kubo himself for the sake of your argument? WTF?

I'm saying Kubo is blowing smoke up your ass because, well... Rukia doesn't resemble anything like the moon, nor has the moon once been used to represent her, nor is her Zanpaktou white, its actually a shade of fushia. If anything the moon represents Orihime, because.. well... go back and read the manga, or rewatch the anime, nearly every shot she's in where its of dramatics, the moon is looming right behind her. And the whole white and black thing, Orihime got that covered too, look again where Orihime and Ichigo are standing facing eachother, what do you see? ZoMg, white clothes with black lining, and black clothes with white lining, direct opposites of one another fitting perfectly with Kubos intent on opposites of colors bit.

There's no getting arround it. Kubo has called Rukia the white moon. And the calender page posted earlier clearly showed it as white. Does this fushia stuff come from the anime?

And you have the nerve to accuse Ichi/Rukia fans of spinning stuff? And how are you being any less arrogant than the people you're accusing by saying you "know" what the author is really up to with all this?

bill200

2008-04-19, 21:16

Rukia's Zanpaktou is white. Watch episode 117, when Chappy explains Rukia's Zanpaktou to Ichigo.

morgus

2008-04-19, 21:16

Yes, Rukia does represent the "white moon" Kubo said so himself. He also said he purposefully made Rukia's zanpakutou white to contrast with Ichigo's black. On the databooks covers, Rukia is shown as the white moon and Ichigo is the black sun. He made that contrast on purpose and it is not in dispute.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 21:23

Because I'm sure every Japanese fan sees Bleach the same way you and others you know do right?

So not you're trying to discredit what Kubo himself did for the sake of your argument? WTF?

There's no getting arround it. Kubo has called Rukia the white moon. And the calender page posted earlier clearly showed it as white. Does this fushia stuff come from the anime?

And you have the nerve to accuse Ichi/Rukia fans of spinning stuff?

You're misinterpretating what I'm saying, I guess it did came off harsh, but I'm merely speaking a possibility. Sorry if it came out wrong, but I never accused ichirukia shippers of spinning anything. But it still stands as ambiguous with Ichigo and Rukia. Both sides has more or less agreed with that already.

As far as where he got the concept from, I don't know, it could've been second hand knowledge. It could be that he did research to find something he can use. He might've heard it from a friend and decided to use it.. I guess thats considered second hand knowledge. He could've known about it for some time and decided to incorporate it. Several possibilities.

Aside from a few pictures here and there, it hasn't been shown evident in the series itself. Usually if you want to make it more prevalent you would make it a consistent theme to make the viewers aware of it. Like what he did with Orihime, the moon was constant with her, that could've been done with Rukia. But it wasn't done.

Again, apologies for sounding aggressive.

All I remember them saying was it was the prettiest Zanpaktou in Soul Society, its not even colored white, it was purplish, thus Fushia.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 21:25

Aside from a few pictures here and there, it hasn't been shown evident in the series itself. Usually if you want to make it more prevalent you would make it a consistent theme to make the viewers aware of it. Like what he did with Orihime, the moon was constant with her, that could've been done with Rukia. But it wasn't done.

And yet in HM arc she's now the sun. Which is it?

I personally prefer to think of Inoue as the rain like her volume poem refered to herself as.

All I remember them saying was it was the prettiest Zanpaktou in Soul Society, its not even colored white, it was purplish, thus Fushia.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3430/shirayukizangetsuzd8.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shirayukizangetsuzd8.jpg)

it's white

morgus

2008-04-19, 21:27

The moon was "constant" with Inoue, because in hueco mundo, there is no sun. So of course she'd be in panels with the moon a lot.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 21:33

And yet in HM arc she's now the sun. Which is it?

Wait.. what? When did the sun came in? Theres no sun in HM. If you're referring to the mood they made when Inoue was telling Ichigo to not get hurt anymore, thats more symbolic as her being his "ray of hope"

The moon was "constant" with Inoue, because in hueco mundo, there is no sun. So of course she'd be in panels with the moon a lot.

You get now huh? Kubo decided to place Inoue in a setting where the moon is constant. Think about it for a minute.

Also, he decided to make the moon always in view of her window, in every scene, he could've easily hid the moon. Even before HM, at the confession, the moon was prevalent there too, it even ended focused at the moon.

morgus

2008-04-19, 21:39

The only thing he could put in the window was the moon. The bottomline is that Kubo said Rukia represents the moon and Inoue represents fushia which represents fail. J/K

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 22:00

Wait.. what? When did the sun came in? Theres no sun in HM. If you're referring to the mood they made when Inoue was telling Ichigo to not get hurt anymore, thats more symbolic as her being his "ray of hope"

Ulquiorra ch 236: This is the end. There is no way for you to intervene. The sun has already sunken into our grasp

Aizen ch 313: A girl like you should smile more often. Overcast skies blot out the sun...and that always brings people's spirits down...so why not let the sun shine...

There was even debate from IchiHime fans in this thread about how Ichigo was the moon and Inoue was the sun.

Langus

2008-04-19, 22:04

Where is Bleach OD in this discussion? OD had some good thoughts on artistic symbolism in Bleach...particularly scenes from the manga with Ichigo's blood artistically drawn to represent tears.

HT: To be frank you do come off as aggressive. This is supposed to be a fun, light-hearted forum where fellow Bleach fans can exchange ideas and make suppositions about their favourite pairing. From the majority of your posts that I've read your basic attitude (as it is demonstrated to the rest of us) seems to be: "I've spent a lot of time in Japan, I'm in a serious relationship, and I'm also an art major therefore the rest of you can't possibly know more about Bleach/art/relationships, etc. than I do."

I think if you made an effort to come off a little less abrasive to everyone else's opinion, whether you agree with it or not, it might make for a better experience for everyone in this forum. People are getting too worked up over small, insignificant things for nothing.

Keep it light hearted people :)

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 22:09

Go back and watch the episodes where she released her Zanpaktou, its purplish. That illustration was black and white, with a red background to allow the objects to stand out more.

As far as Aizen's comment is concerned, I don't think it means anything. He was speaking metaphorically of course, what he said was basically a cheesy pick up line you use at a club. its basically like saying, baby your smile is like a sunshine... uh.. yeah...

As far as Ulq is concern, I don't remember much about that, I'll have to go back and re read it.

@Langus

Yeah, I know I come off that way... sometimes I can't help it, and I do apologize. It is one of my faults as a human being. I'm too passionate for my own good. It didn't do many any good as a kid, I got into a lot of fights, lol...

morgus

2008-04-19, 22:17

Her sword is called sleeve of the "white" snow. It is explained how it is pure "white", not purplish. BTW, you have my respect for trying to keep this thread going.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 22:17

Go back and watch the episodes where she released her Zanpaktou, its purplish. That illustration was black and white, with a red background to allow the objects to stand out more.

I don't care what color the anime made it. They also made Gin's eyes red and Matsumoto's hair closer to orange than strawberry blonde. It's been confirmed by Kubo that it is white.

But I checked the anime anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcM0sCG8XCw&feature=related

Yeah that's white. The purple is due to shadows. *shrugs* Easy mistake

bill200

2008-04-19, 22:22

To explain things better.
The name of Rukia’s Zampakutou is:
Sode no Shirayuki (Sleeve of White Snow)
Her first ability is:
Some No Mai, Tusuki Shiro (First Dance, White Moon)
Chappy then explains to Ichigo that it is the most beautiful snow and ice Zanpakutou in all of soul society, and that every part is of the purest white.
This is all from episode 117.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 22:23

Well, I accept that its white, theres no point arguing over it, nor will it lead to anything, so its best to just drop it.

Warchef

2008-04-19, 22:39

What's so hard to understand why Orihime confessed?

She was about to be kidnapped and taken to HM by Ulquiorra. She did it to supposedly save everyone, so she goes to say goodbye to the person who meant the most to her.

Her confession was given to a
Sleeping Ichigo.

Have you ever thought that that confession and Ichigo being asleep was symbolic in some way? Inoue confessing to a sleeping Ichigo fits well with the whole unrequited love theme, which KT has touched on quite a bit.

Also, I find it funny that now after two anime episodes (one with LOLtastic OOC ending) IchiHime fans try and twist the Black Sun, White Moon parallel drawn by Kubo.

Orihime isn't the sun, she has never been the sun, and she never will be the sun.

Amirali

2008-04-19, 22:44

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 22:46

Actually, it was currently being argued that it was the Moon that became the constant theme for Orihime. Which true, what it means... no clue.

Anyway, artists like to use colors to compliment characters. Ichigos black and Inoue's white is a good example.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/asianknight20/zvubn9.png

the holding of hands is like symbolizing yin and yang, the balance of perfect harmony.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 22:49

the holding of hands is like symbolizing yin and yang, the balance of perfect harmony.

It's filler :)

Not to mention that yin yang stuff can be just as easily applied to Ichigo/Rukia

I'm more interested in the symbolism of constantly failing to carry a girl properly. Ichigo has yet to not treat any of them as sacks of potatoes.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 22:59

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 23:09

Funny but true, Ichigo needs to learn how to treat a lady properly. I'm sure they'll add in the over the shoulder part in the next episode after the fillers, I thought it was cute, and who would wanna miss seeing Ichigo's hand on Inoue's sweet bottom? :)

Ichigo sure as hell missed it.

I still consider all things in anime to be canonical, as mentioned in my earlier posts ;)

If by canonical by itself, then go ahead. If you mean canonical with the manga I would love to hear how you fix the discrepencies between the two that otherwise make connecting them like that impossible and pointless.

And since everyone seems to think the anime studio is in a pairing mood recently, here is something they put together for a convention in Tokyo a couple of weeks ago. Pierrot had this little item (actually a large shikiji) up for sale in honor of its 30th anniversary:

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6793/bleachshikishibf9.th.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bleachshikishibf9.jpg)

Yin and Yang baby

Warchef

2008-04-19, 23:14

Just to point out, when Ulqui abducted her, he said "the sun has set into our hands". There have been other places where she's been referred to as "the sun". I'm not saying it proves anything, but it's still a fact.

He wasn't referring to Inoue, but to the fact that all hope for Ichigo and Co. (SS included) is lost, and that victory belongs to Aizen (We all know about Ulqui's hero worship of Aizen-sama).

Sabaku Kyu

2008-04-19, 23:16

Sabaku Kyu

You're right I wasn't sure..it's the cover of 2008 and that makes it even more recent..here's its picture..kubo featured ichigo's zanpaktou with rukia's shirayuki to make a contrast between the black and white concept..I can't see more canon evidence than this one..

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3430/shirayukizangetsuzd8.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shirayukizangetsuzd8.jpg)

I'm actually curious as to where you found that. I've seen 3 versions of the Bleach calendar and none of them had that cover (all of them featured Ichigo, but not Rukia) I really like it, it would make an excellent desktop wallpaper.

But canon evidence of a pairing...no. It's just two zanpakuto.

There're some of shounen jump covers as well and some have just the two of them..when they have many characters you usually see ichiruki beside each other..anyway

SJ cover nearly always features the most recognizable characters. Rukia and Ichigo are the two most recognizable characters. This is evidence of their status as the iconic characters of Bleach..not so much their romance. Same with the positions of the characters in the spreads, the more recognizable ones placed towards the front.

comparing them to ichiori, they have not even one color spread that featured just the two of them even in her arc..you can say I don't care about them but kubo and the anime do..

Neither have Yourichi & Urahara or Gin & Matsumoto, yet these are both heavily hinted and popular pairings. Renji & Rukia calendar pictures and cover spreads have been featured too so I wouldn't really spread/cover together=relationship.

@Langus

touché with NelXIchigo pairing :heh: that's a clever way to make a point.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-19, 23:21

He wasn't referring to Inoue, but to the fact that all hope for Ichigo and Co. (SS included) is lost, and that victory belongs to Aizen (We all know about Ulqui's hero worship of Aizen-sama).

No Ulquiorra called her the sun. :love:

HayashiTakara

2008-04-19, 23:24

I remember that one picture where it was Renji Rukia Orihime and Ichigo all in the same pic, wearing white clothes, Inoue and Rukia were laying down with Ichigo standing behind Inoue and Rukia standing behind Rukia, I thought that pic was hot... anyone have that? I forgot to save it last time I saw it.

Langus

2008-04-20, 01:29

It's filler :)

Not to mention that yin yang stuff can be just as easily applied to Ichigo/Rukia

I'm more interested in the symbolism of constantly failing to carry a girl properly. Ichigo has yet to not treat any of them as sacks of potatoes.

This is where Nel again comes in handy yet again... instructing Ichigo on the finer points of courtship...
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000286/09.jpg
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000286/10.jpg

WhiteWings

2008-04-20, 01:31

He must have hormones raging by now. All that energy must be going into his fighting power. That would explain a few things....

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 01:35

lol, now that I look at it closely... did Nell just hammered Ichigo in the nut sack? lol

I wonder what people would think if the animation studio decides to change that scene from a over the shoulder to a groom carrying the bride type of carry? I think there would be a bigger shit storm than the hand holding ,lol

ForgedGlory

2008-04-20, 01:40

Langus

2008-04-20, 01:44

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 01:51

At least it wasn't a head butt, lol... but then again focused energy at a smaller point is more painful than wide energy on a larger surface area. Nel, you are a true gem <3

Sabaku Kyu

2008-04-20, 02:34

I'm more interested in the symbolism of constantly failing to carry a girl properly. Ichigo has yet to not treat any of them as sacks of potatoes.

Really? I seem to recall Ichigo flinging a certain girl off the top of the Souyouku execution platform not so gently

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 03:02

Ugh,... I should've went out tonight when I friends asked me to... I'm bored as hell... anyway,... Sabaku I think Langus was referring to the way he carried both Rukia and Inoue. Although he was alot more inconsiderate with Rukia though... like the aforementioned chucking her like a rag doll.

Anyway, I know I'm not the only one... but I actually enjoyed seeing Ichigo behave so gently with Inoue at the end of 167. It was quite refreshing and heartwarming. And watching little Nel standing there grinning watching Inoue walk up to Ichigo and giving him her hand. *la sigh... lol

Royal_Devil

2008-04-20, 03:04

Really? I seem to recall Ichigo flinging a certain girl off the top of the Souyouku execution platform not so gently

What are you talking about? I never said anything to the contrary. When I said any of them I meant any of the female characters. Was that not clear enough?

Langus

2008-04-20, 03:59

Back after a much needed UFC break...

I'm willing to wager that if Chad was standing at the bottom of that pillar he would've chucked Orihime down so he could catch her. He's just thoughtless and practical like that. He'd carry Nel down himself though, of course, for fear of another ball bashing ;)

Kazuma77

2008-04-20, 07:13

I don't care what color the anime made it. They also made Gin's eyes red and Matsumoto's hair closer to orange than strawberry blonde. It's been confirmed by Kubo that it is white.

But I checked the anime anyway

Yeah that's white. The purple is due to shadows. *shrugs* Easy mistake

we are talking about relationship ichigo/rukia or ichigo/orihime and not fights, moves, or what release Rukia made in that clip. BTW you should remove that link, and don't OT anymore. I like this thread, and i don't want to be closed

Amirali

2008-04-20, 08:04

The point isn't actually OT, you know. Some people think that the colours show symbolism of possible relationships. E.g, Rukia represents white, Ichigo represents black....or one represents a "white moon", the other the "black sun".

Or another theory is Orihime represents "the sun", Ichigo represents the "black moon"...yada,yada,yada. Personally, I don't care to judge a pairing based on this because it's too confusing. However, Kubo has hmself used the words "sun" and "moon" on the manga covers with Ichigo and Rukia on them. That means it's not totally unsupported.

So if some people wish to argue some relationship outcome based on the colour of Rukia's sword..........I wouldn't tell them it's offtopic. It's possible Kubo might have had some deeper symbolism behind it.

I will, however, not make any such case myself either way.........all this symbolism/colour/yin-yang mystical stuff goes over my head, so I leave it to the wiser judges.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 08:17

You know Amirali, sometimes the most simple interpretations of the complicated stuff, is the most likely reason. Its not something deep seeded, it is a series made for little boys after all. Not intended for philosophical discussion amongst people with large IQs, lol

Amirali

2008-04-20, 08:29

Whew, that's good to know.........I get lost trying to follow these yin-yang and symbolism discussions sometimes.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 08:32

I don't know too much myself other than the occasional drops of wisdom my grandfather would bestow upon me during my summer visits... it usually happens when I did something bad as a little kid, lol.

kagato3

2008-04-20, 09:02

Yeah following that path leads to madness. Cuase then you have to take in to acount that given KT translated Orihime's name as Vega Highwell on the cover of chapter 5 that Orhime is named after the star that the the Chinese myth of Orihime is based on, which has strong connections to the moon. Then you have half a dozen people that are connected to moon based symbolism includeing Ichigo, Rukia, Aizen, Nnoi, ect.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 09:12

morgus

2008-04-20, 09:19

As far as symbolism goes, I think Rukia and ichigo are the sun and moon only to eachother. In their relationship, Rukia is the moon and Ichigo is the sun. Everything related to the moon does'nt have to do with Rukia and everything sun related does'nt have to involve Ichigo. Does that make sense?

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 09:22

Sorry Morgus.. but no... lol

If you're going to use Symbolism don't do it half-assedly, so far the only thing that even correllates Rukia with the moon is one of her skills with her Zanpaktou. Everyone else is more deep routed in name, and symbolic nature.

morgus

2008-04-20, 09:31

I did my best. :eyespin: But as far as symbolism goes, I think its been pretty much stated by Kubo that Rukia represents the "white moon". I don't know what it means to represent the moon, it's probably like you said and he just thought it looked cool, but I do think that color contrasts are legit in a shipping debate.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 09:36

I honestly think he just thought it was cool, and decided to spread the theme out throughout the series. Its like he became obsessed with it. I know plenty of artists who are guilty of such a thing.

If you look at it in the most basic manner, White Moon, Black Sun, they are of complete opposite of one another right? But... the only thing opposite from Rukia and Ichigo are their Genders, Height and color of their Zanpaktous. They're basically the male and female versions of eachother. The things that are opposite are shallow in inconsequently has no deep meaning.

If you wanna look at it in personality contrast. Orihime is Ichigo's opposite. He's brash hot headed, etc etc, while she's gentle caring and don't want to see anyone no matter who it is get hurt. Then you get the outfits deal. *refers back to the earlier pic posted* When you see Ichigo and Inoue stand side by side, they look more "opposite, yet complimentary than anything else shown in bleach.

morgus

2008-04-20, 09:47

Don't forget their hair lol. As far as outfits, Rukia also wore white in soul society, and in hueco mundo, everybody wears white clothes with a black lining. Personality wise, you might have a point, but Rukia is also gentle and caring when she needs to be and is actually quite "girly", and alot of people think Ichiruki works so well because they are similar in some respects. Also don't forget, there's the human-shinigami different worlds parallel thing going too.

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 09:57

Ichigo is strange that he's a hybrid, so its not really direct opposite. And yes Rukia did wear white... but they never really had a focus on them together giving enough time to correlate the colors. Her white bath robe never became staple, it was easily forgettable. Rukia will always be remembered in her standard shinigami garbs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/asianknight20/zvubn9.png

look at this again... Do you get the same feeling from looking at this as you would an arrancar with Ichigo? Kubo could've easily not given the Arrancars white clothing, and at the very least not given Orihime those clothes. Design follows a flow and reason, Character Design Class Semester 3 Art 201, lol XD

HaNa-san

2008-04-20, 10:22

I'm actually curious as to where you found that. I've seen 3 versions of the Bleach calendar and none of them had that cover (all of them featured Ichigo, but not Rukia) I really like it, it would make an excellent desktop wallpaper.

I took it from ichiruki fc…I think this version is made by kubo himself while the others are made by anime team..

But canon evidence of a pairing...no. It's just two zanpakuto.

It's just a zanpakuto you say! So funny..then kubo could have used renji zanpaktou or anyone else with ichigo if he didn't want to show the pairing intention..not only that, notice the form of ichigo zanpakto, kubo used his zangetsu form not the bankai one..why? to match its ribbon with rukia's one, isn't that so considerable..and it has more deeper meaning than that..rukia's sword represents a pure white while ichigo's the black, he wanted to make the contrast between the white moon and black sun like what he did in soul and vibes covers…
If you still disagree, feel free to, but remember that kubo doesn't draw random things..

SJ cover nearly always features the most recognizable characters. Rukia and Ichigo are the two most recognizable characters. This is evidence of their status as the iconic characters of Bleach..not so much their romance. Same with the positions of the characters in the spreads, the more recognizable ones placed towards the front.

I bet if it was orihime instead of her, you wouldn't say that..featuring some ichiruki in SJ covers it shows how much normal to see them beside each other, as you know they're canon in Japan without any question, so people there don't need to discuss it..and if you don't know one of the covers just show ichiruki in a romantic shape like when ichigo's dad cheering for them while wearing a word "love" in his t-shirt XD
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6702/jojo000zvk0.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jojo000zvk0.jpg) here's another one, it's when rukia came back to human world in ch 195, SJ wrote "guess who's back" it's ichiruki..
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/652/01052008090716pmbt9ln1.th.jpg (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01052008090716pmbt9ln1.jpg)

Neither have Yourichi & Urahara or Gin & Matsumoto, yet these are both heavily hinted and popular pairings. Renji & Rukia calendar pictures and cover spreads have been featured too so I wouldn't really spread/cover together=relationship.

I agree there's some of them, because renji and rukia is popular in Japan than many pairing including ichiori, that's why I think poor ichiori, they didn't even get one cover together while yourichi,uruhara, gin and matsumoto got some..

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 10:43

Er.. yeah, those covers don't scream IchiRukia, If you show me a cover of Ichigo and Rukia holding each other in a couple like manner, then feel free to show it.

When Rukia returned to the real world, interactions were brief. It was all about Inoue and how it lead to the H.M arc. I'll break it down.

Inoue comes face to face with Ulq. and Yammy, Chad is down for the count, Ichigo comes to the rescue, Inoue gets hurt, Urahara and Yoruichi saves the day. Ichigo broods over Inoue getting hurt for days, Rukia finds that Ichigo's worries were that he was unable to protect Inoue. After Rukia convinced Ichigo that he can protect her if he were to put his mind to it, she made him go apologize to her. Soon after it focus's on Inoue being jealous, and hates the fact that she was jealous.

Vizards appear, Shin hits on Inoue, Ichigo got annoyed that he was there and tries to get rid of him. ( I forget if this happened before or after the Yammy scene )

Rukia forces her way into Ichigos household, despite him being against it, and quite adamantly if I may add. But this didn't last long. Grimm and company attacks the town, ichigo and rukia got their ass kicked by Grimm. Ichigo disappears to go live and train with the Vizards. Then it focuses on his training and Inoue wondering what happened to Ichigo. Inoue and Rukia have a friendship moment on the rooftop, Inoue turns out to be the only one capable of finding Ichigo, Inoue and Rukia goes off to S.S. to train. While Ichigo continues his Vizard training. Grimm attacks the town again, Ichigo confronts him and got his ass kicked again.

While Inoue was heading back to the real world, she gets confronted by Ulq. Big confession scene occurs with Inoue. Next day, Ichigo feels something weird, he gets summoned to meeting, he screams and cusses out the Yamamoto for badmouthing Inoue.

HM Arc begins.

Lucifer-Angel

2008-04-20, 11:07

When there are talks about colour spreads counts and how IchiRuki is canon based on how they appear in the spreads even just by standing next to each other within a bunch of people, I actually wonder why there are so many denials over the latest episode. So when evidences hinted to the pairing, it's evidences, but when the evidences are showing some IchiHime, it's deviation. Ah, not that it's anything new, just a spare thought.

Great job guys, I specifically loved how you guys interact, Hayashi Takara and Kakashi-san. I only pop in once in a while. Keep up the great job.

morgus

2008-04-20, 12:25

Well, the color spreads and such are made by kubo and the anime is'nt. I think it's been agreed that the anime is'nt completely canon. But, maybe Kubo's bosses just told him to draw covers and spreads that way, I'd be interested in knowing if Kubo comes up with those or if he just draws covers the way he's told.

HaNa-san

2008-04-20, 12:33

Some of you still question the fact that ichiruki is the black sun and the white moon that was wrttien by kubo himself.. That's really pathetic and so ignorant to the author intention.. if you can't take the words the author himself wrote as an evidence, then what kind of evidence you need to believe on?

He featured only ichiruki when he wrote this poem.. Cogitate of its meaning and the chosen words..

The rain drags the Black Sun down, But the rain dried by White Sun

Notice the word rain has been used to connect the two symbols, which means b sun and w moon don't only focus on the shape of ichiruki personality and their zanpakto form, but also it represents their relationship and the affect they have for each other.. do you remember the chapter memories of the rain, we all know that ichigo has suffered a lot because of his mother death..rukia was able to eliminate his grief by supporting and trusting him, her role was to wash out the darkness inside of him, so she dried his rain..

Kubo didn't stop here, he also drew the cover of calendar for 2008 (I posted the image in the previous pages) in this image, he represented the shirayuki and zangetsu to show the opposite connection of their swords, which means he didn't want you to just look at their roles on each others life only, but also at their zanpakto's form..it has contrary colors the while and the black, it has nothing to do with their outfit colors or hairs.. denying this fact is only refusing to believe on kubo's words and works..

Moreover, He wrote these poems as well in ch 0,

Everytime the sun and the moon touch each other
constantly changing its appearance to something new

He used sun and moon again here to symbolize ichiruki and every time they touch each other meaning interact, their relationship changes to something new..i think this poem is quite romantic ..It shows how much time kubo has spent to think of these symbols and their connection to many ideas of ichiruki life like the rain, the zanpakto from and their interaction..

Therefore, I believe the white moon and the black sun meant to characterize only ichiruki because it's related to many things just the two of them have shared.. if orihime was the moon or sun, are these symbols has something to do with ichigo specifically, I don't think so, she barely interacts with him..but she can be a sun that represents the hope to the whole group not ichigo's individually..if ichiori wants to believe that ichigo's the moon and orihime is the sun, at least bring only one poem that's written by kubo himself shows BOTH of orihime and ichigo in that poam..but sadly I don't think we'll have one..

HayashiTakara

2008-04-20, 12:33

A collage of people hardly constitutes as "evidence", and things like cover art magazines like Shonen Jump are a collaberation of designers. its not like, hey you draw something and I'll stick on the cover. Because the cover art consist of characters from other series as well, it needs to work from a design aspect.

Royal_Devil

2008-04-20, 12:37

Again with the, "Kubo's not as great as you think stuff." Look there are artists who just add things and their are artists who do it with a purpose. I'll even use an IchiHime example with his masterful use of the Halcyon Days myth. Someone who could do that so well doesn't strick me as one who half asses things like you seem to imply.

Ichigo is strange that he's a hybrid, so its not really direct opposite. And yes Rukia did wear white... but they never really had a focus on them together giving enough time to correlate the colors. Her white bath robe never became staple, it was easily forgettable. Rukia will always be remembered in her standard shinigami garbs.

She was depicted a number of times in her white robes. The Arigato ending theme had her in her white robes.

Soul and Vibes

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee203/KahthrGirl20/Bleach/Bleach%20Couples/Ichigo%20and%20Rukia/whiteblack.png

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4429/d86b4e6e0f54f22c219e485wd7.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d86b4e6e0f54f22c219e485wd7.jpg)

And in chapter covers. I'm pressed for time right now so I found the next best thing for now

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7012/ichigoxrukiaclubidbyichfm3.th.jpg (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ichigoxrukiaclubidbyichfm3.jpg)

This has been modified but in the original double spread, Ichigo was on the left page and Rukia was on the right page.

As far as the SS arc is concerned, Rukia's white robes are as staple to her as Inoue's in this arc. You can vouch otherwise all you want, these indicate otherwise. Come to think of it, has Inoue ever been depicted in a chapter cover in her arrancar uniform?

look at this again... Do you get the same feeling from looking at this as you would an arrancar with Ichigo? Kubo could've easily not given the Arrancars white clothing, and at the very least not given Orihime those clothes. Design follows a flow and reason, Character Design Class Semester 3 Art 201, lol XD

Again with the filler screen. And now Kubo is suddenly thinking carefully about this stuff? Make up your mind, is his planning it carefully or is just doing it because it looks cool?

He gave them white clothing because it's the opposite of what their enemies the shinigami wear. Just like the Qunicies wear white, futuristic clothing to contrast the black traditional clothing of the shinigami. Not to mention white has always been associated with hollows while black is for the shinigami.

And the only time Inoue's clothing has been brought up like that is with Ulquiorra telling her it suits her.