Speculation about Aizen. [Use spoiler tags for manga] [Archive]

ccardoso

2005-12-19, 04:56

Hello,
first post after the "big crash" of the forum... :(
I read the manga and so the recent events in the anime didn't surprise me too much... but in the anime I realized even better how much stronger than all others Aizen is! He owned Hitsugaya, then owned Renji and Ichigo (he stopped tensa zangetsu with a finger!!!) and the fox captain... he seems to be a god to me... I mean he even became the leader of hollows later in the story... so rather than asking "who is really Ichigo?" we should ask "who is really Aizen?". I think a huge part of his power come from his absolute hypnosis... no matter how strong an opponent is, if you can control his five senses then he's just a puppet in your hands and so we can safely assume that Aizen is the strongest simply because he can make all the strong ones his puppets and because he's strong by himself as well.
Is there a way to defeat such an opponent? The only way to resist to Aizen's absolute hypnosis is to be blind... so if one wants to defeat Aizen does he need to become blind?!?

Desti-Fate

2005-12-19, 05:31

An attack that doesn't rely on accuracy for success would work, eg. Byakuya's moves. Ichigo's speed could just attack everywhere, and he might hit Aizen before Aizen hit him.

And of course Kaname Tousen would have a pretty huge advantage VS Aizen's shikai. We'd need to know Aizen's bankai before guessing who'd win that fight though...

Greatmaster B

2005-12-19, 05:44

Aizen's Shikai has the power of complete hynosis if you have seen the release of the Zanpaktou once. That means that going blind or using a blindfold wouldn't help you when you have already seen it (of which you can't be sure because Aizen could have made you forget it happened). The complete hypnosis doesn't seem to require anything than Aizen's will to use his Zanpaktou's Shikai against someone. The only way to defeat it is imho (this is speculation) attacking from a far distance so that the Shikai can't influence you (maybe Ishida could do this) or someone who never fought Aizen wearing a blindfold (maybe Ishin ?). But all who have seen the release once (Hitsugaya,Renji,other Vice-Captains...) have no chance against Aizen because they will be influenced by the Shikai whether they have their eyes closed or not.

carb

2005-12-19, 05:50

im guessing Aizen's bankai will have something to do with creating an illusion of the terrain, kinda like Tousen's bankai except that its not that but rather resembles the real world. and you can just imagine what kind of tricks he can pull with "his" world( makes ichigo think that its a rock, but actually its a river, etc). Of course, anyone who sees his bankai will be immediately subject to his hypnosis, even after the release.

sarrah

2005-12-19, 06:58

i think its not a mattar of fact of his banakai ans shikai being so great all of a sudden, but he was probably one of the older living shinigami, having gained immense experience, battle skill, power, over hundreds of years....i mean c'mon he said that he relised that there is no heaven...that means he's been contemplating a lot since he's been in soul society of "is that it?...life ...SS....then start over?"
its all about time...kabu tite therefore is probably gona have him come out with a technique that has all but ONE flaw....so sum1 could beat him,,,, but not easily....

cant wait to see what happens

Novarain

2005-12-19, 07:43

I thought so long as you don't see his release you won't be affected... and remember he already cancelled hos release when Unohana and Isane found him at centre 46...

Maybe they should just learn to fight blind-folded all the time.... then Aizen's gonna have a really hard time...

Only thing we need to know now is what his bankai can do...

sarrah

2005-12-19, 08:47

but we dont have any clue what the FULL extenet of his nakai can do...so basically we know jack all..so how can any1 find a weakness?

Elvanvitar

2005-12-19, 14:17

Yeah, if you've seen it once, you're screwed for life. At least that's the way I took it. That's why he gathered all the VC's and whatnot at one time to show them his ability. I would imagine everyone in Soul Society that has any skill at all, except Tousen, is under his spell.

Kona

2005-12-19, 15:06

Like some people said... just make sure you dont see his sword being realeased and close your eyes and sense his reaitsu.

MobiuS

2005-12-19, 16:32

Closing your eyes shouldnt do much .. really ....

Aizen isnt a slouch. In the time you close your eyes ... hes already shadow-stepped up to you and put his zanpaktou in your heart. Gameover.

Counter for his ability? Practise fighting blind ...

Dark`

2005-12-19, 16:34

Like some people said... just make sure you dont see his sword being realeased and close your eyes and sense his reaitsu.
If Hinamori can mask her reiatsu, I think someone of Aizen's level could mask his reiatsu as well.

And there's one other thing that I see seems to keep coming up in the thread. Everyone just keeps mentioning how people should fight blindfolded and whatnot...you're all just focusing on sight. Aizen's Zanpakutou completely entraps all senses, not just sight. Therefore, hearing, touch, smell and taste (why you would need taste in a fight is beyond me but it is a sense) would all be rendered useless as well. A simply blindfold isn't going to work against all that

IMHO you just have to avoid seeing his release... so if he is calling out for his sword's name, you have to close your eyes... then he needs to re-seal his sword before he can try again to hypnotise you, which gives you a few seconds to attack.
If you recall Renji's fight against Byakuya, Renji was able to use his Shikai without calling out Zabimaru's name. This surprised Byakuya, since if you can do that, that means that you've achieved Bankai. As such, I doubt Aizen needs to call out the name of his Zanpakutou to release it. Thus, you'd never know if he released it or not.

Uruz7

2005-12-19, 16:35

IMHO you just have to avoid seeing his release... so if he is calling out for his sword's name, you have to close your eyes... then he needs to re-seal his sword before he can try again to hypnotise you, which gives you a few seconds to attack.

A shinigami who has reached bankai doesn't have to use the verbal command for their shikai. As for all the speculation about Aizen's shikai power, I think everyone is overestimating it a little. Sure it's called Complete Hypnosis, but it's still just shikai and for it to be as powerful as it is being made out to be, it would be more powerful than any bankai we've seen so far (or any other release by anyone else, even in the current manga arc). There has to be a weakness somewhere, somehow

Of course, Aizen has powers far beyond those of a shinigami, so maybe his shikai really is that strong but that would just make him god-like....which is another possibility :)

MobiuS

2005-12-19, 17:07

Maybe you require a huge amount of spiritual energy to break through the hypnosis. Thats the only way I see Ichigo being able to beat him. And cosidering that Ichigo has won practically every battle, him defeating Aizen is only a matter of time. Theres no proof of this anywhere, but Ill say having a high spiritual energy should allow you (your senses) to combat the illusion Aizen creates.

Ikorose

2005-12-19, 17:27

Well, for those who think that once you see Aizen's shikai, you're in his trap for life:

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. If he chooses to stop the Absolute Hypnosis, then it stops. And, as for that, he's already stopped it in the anime, as everybody knows exactly what is happening, without any of Aizen's Hypnosis being in effect. It's all real.

And even if Ichigo or someone was able to somehow make it so they can see past Aizen's Hypnosis, he'd still have an amazingly hard time to beat Aizen himself. Aizen's done some pretty amazing things, such as easily stopping Ichigo's blade, and...

Absolutely destroying Komamura, with demon magic in the 90s. Ichigo even comments on the vast difference of power between the two Captains. Also, he is indeed one of the older Captains, and, personally, I think he became one a short while after Kyouraku, and Ukitake.

sanghyun1990

2005-12-19, 18:03

Only person that could beat Aizen's shikai is Tousen. Aizen's bankai was never shown, so nobody knows he's full strength.

SuperKnuckles

2005-12-19, 18:16

Only person that could beat Aizen's shikai is Tousen. Aizen's bankai was never shown, so nobody knows he's full strength.

I think Aizen can probably strongarm anybody with his pure skills regardless of Shikai or Bankai. His demonarts skills are probably good enough to kill most Shinigami captains.

wingdarkness

2005-12-19, 18:41

This reminds me of that episode of Trigun when Vash had to beat that chick with the eye that seemed to stop time...Her hypnosis was so strong that even if you closed your eyes she could manipulate you thru your four other senses...I would think Aizen's slayer as powerful as it is has some type of fundamental weakness aswell...At the circus when the guy comes out to hypnotize the crowd and make an average man cluck like a chicken there's always somebody that doesn't fall for it :P...

Inflicting some type of physical pain and focusing on it at the same moment as Aizen releases his bankai could be the key (much like Vash's predicament)...After being hypnotized you would still feel the pain and perhaps slip out of it with great will-power...The negative-effect would be Aizen seeing you bleeding and probably killing your a$$, but wouldn't he have to re-sheath his slayer yet again to hypnotize the rest into believing your still alive once he kills you? Or does he automatically control adjustments in the manipulation at all times (which is hard to believe)...In the time it takes to un-sheath his slayer yet again, someone else might be able to figure the deception, much like that medical Shinigami lady from ep 60...

What's scary to me is what does his second Lvl Bankai produce?? (As usual manga-guys zip it) Perhaps he creates an entire hyptno-world of obstacles to fight you while you fight him...Imagine fighting like 10 Aizen's as hyptno-after-images while the real Aizen is flashstepping and leading you into a vortex of fear...Damn, Aizen is a scary mofo to say the least...

edit:
Well I guess I meant to ask was: What's scary to me is what does his bankai produce??? And obviously a second lvl would be mortifying....

Dark`

2005-12-19, 18:47

This reminds me of that episode of Trigun when Vash had to beat that chick with the eye that seemed to stop time...Her hypnosis was so strong that even if you closed your eyes she could manipulate you thru your four other senses...I would think Aizen's slayer as powerful as it is has some type of fundamental weakness aswell...At the circus when the guy comes out to hypnotize the crowd and make an average man cluck like a chicken there's always somebody that doesn't fall for it :P...

Inflicting some type of physical pain and focusing on it at the same moment as Aizen releases his bankai could be the key (much like Vash's predicament)...After being hypnotized you would still feel the pain and perhaps slip out of it with great will-power...The negative-effect would be Aizen seeing you bleeding and probably killing your a$$, but wouldn't he have to re-sheath his bankai yet again to hypnotize the rest into believing your still alive once he kills you? Or does he automatically control adjustments in the manipulation at all times (which is hard to believe)...In the time it takes to un-sheath his bankai yet again, someone else might be able to figure the deception, much like that medical Shinigami lady from ep 60...

What's scary to me is what does his second Lvl Bankai produce?? (As usual manga-guys zip it) Perhaps he creates an entire hyptno-world of obstacles to fight you while you fight him...Imagine fighting like 10 Aizen's as hyptno-after-images while the real Aizen is flashstepping and leading you into a vortex of fear...Damn, Aizen is a scary mofo to say the least...
Aizen has yet to even mention his Bankai. His 'absolute hypnosis' is a result of his Shikai.

wingdarkness

2005-12-19, 18:49

Aizen has yet to even mention his Bankai. His 'absolute hypnosis' is a result of his Shikai.
Jesus, that's even scarier...

Well I guess I'll modify my previous opinion a bit and say, Damn WTF will his bankai produce?? :eek:

Ikorose

2005-12-19, 18:50

We don't even know what his original Bankai does, let alone if he has any other forms of it. But you bring up a great point, WD, bringing in the whole Vash thing. Another interesting thing is that above everyone else, Unohana was the sole person to detect something odd with Aizen's Absolute Hypnosis running about, proving that it isn't so absolute after all. I think that, if someone is going to figure out how a way to look past it, it will be her. Or Urahara/Yoruichi. That duo finds the answers to everything. :cool:

Dark`

2005-12-19, 19:34

About not calling the name: We don't know, if Aizen has a bankai yet and can release his sword without calling the name... but even if he can, there should be a way to realise he is going todo it.
When Yoruichi was explaining Bankai to Ichigo, she mentioned that one must be able to perform Shikai and Bankai in order to become a Captain, and that the only Captain in the history of Soul Society has ever obtained the rank of Captain without achieving Bankai, and that's Zaraki Kenpachi. Thusly, Aizen should, in all rights, have a Bankai (unless he managed to use his Shikai to hypnotise everyone into thinking he had one and became a Captain that way). I'm still under the impression that Aizen does have a Bankai though.

wingdarkness

2005-12-19, 19:41

Aizen has to have a bankai...This is shonen anime guys...The powers get greater and greater....The main evil villian has now been shown to us, there's no way he doesn't possess the power that is basically the main theme of the fighting in the show...I can't wait to see it....Or maybe I should cover my eyes so I don't go bat-$hit an attk my monitor when he releases it...

Dark`

2005-12-19, 19:47

You basically gave my answer beforehand: We know for sure, that Aizen has a method of making everybody see, what he wants them to see. So as long as we don't see him using a Bankai (on "screen"), we can't say for sure that he has a Bankai, because everything the characters think is his Bankai could have just been an illusion created by his Shikai.
While that certainly is true, Isane also mentioned the fact that Aizen purposely gathered up all the Vice-Captains to show them his Zanpakutou's ability. Granted she never mentioned whether this took place before or after he became Captain...I'm guessing it's probably the latter. Even Hinamori is affected by his Zanpakutou, and he was a Captain well before she became a Vice-Captain. There can be discrepancies, like he trapped her in the illusion after he already performed the "ceremony", as Unohana called it, but then he would've had to pull multiple people aside individually (or as a group) afterwards in order to trap them all. It's certainly possible, but a scenario I deem unlikely.

Thus, I'm still of the mindset that he does indeed have a Bankai. You have your opinion, I have mine. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

carb

2005-12-19, 19:51

well..wats a better way to control Arrancars than to hypnotize them? :D Aizen has got it made!

Kona

2005-12-19, 20:08

If Hinamori can mask her reiatsu, I think someone of Aizen's level could mask his reiatsu as well.

And there's one other thing that I see seems to keep coming up in the thread. Everyone just keeps mentioning how people should fight blindfolded and whatnot...you're all just focusing on sight. Aizen's Zanpakutou completely entraps all senses, not just sight. Therefore, hearing, touch, smell and taste (why you would need taste in a fight is beyond me but it is a sense) would all be rendered useless as well. A simply blindfold isn't going to work against all that

If you recall Renji's fight against Byakuya, Renji was able to use his Shikai without calling out Zabimaru's name. This surprised Byakuya, since if you can do that, that means that you've achieved Bankai. As such, I doubt Aizen needs to call out the name of his Zanpakutou to release it. Thus, you'd never know if he released it or not.

Well obviously you need to see his shikai to be tamed. If you close your eyes before that.. you might have a chance. But..... Urahara im 100% positive will make something to work through this cheap ass shikai ability See what she did to Illforte? owning illforte for a quick second until he released his shikai and she had to be saved by jinta who was gonna get a ass whooping and renji about to get owned? Anyway.. the thing he put inside of ururu is crazy.. back when ichigo was regaining his shinigami powers he was fighting ururu(she had anti-shinigami mod on) and i think when he punched her or got her mad or something like that.. she was about to land a vicious kick or punch (i forget) which would of killed ichigo... So yea urahara can make something to prevent this absolute hypnosis crud or ichigo will overcome it and his bankai or somebody else...

torz

2005-12-19, 23:43

well..wats a better way to control Arrancars than to hypnotize them? :D Aizen has got it made!

Ha, I'm not sure if anime guys here will appreciate that comment :p

BrokenWingz

2005-12-20, 03:49

Hisoka??

2005-12-20, 10:24

I'm gonna make a few random guesses..
From what ive seen in the anime, bankai tends to be rather closely related to the shikai form(e.g the little captians and so on)
So if we stick to this theory Aizen's bankai would be based on some sort
hypnosis type or as stated by one of the vice captian(flowing water?)but i kinda forgot if he tricked them or not on that part ><

Bleh its up to the writer to decide :P
Sorry if i dont make sense ><

hmm your bankai and shikai link is valid up to the point where if you consider can there be something along illusion or misinformation lines that is greater than complete hypnosis??

the only 2 things i can think of is 1) real complete hynosis where all who sees/hears/feels/senses his bankai become his puppet. or 2) he can materialise his illusions. but that would make him invincible..........

1.0.7.

2005-12-21, 11:25

we don't know if this guy was evil from the beginning
i mean, in the tousen flashback, when he was still a vice-captain, he still looked like a nerd. he couldn't have hidden himself for that long a time..
i don't know
on a side not, what happened to gin and tousen now that they're in hueco mundo?

RPGGamer

2005-12-21, 12:52

I reckon that Aizens hypnotism has a flaw that Ichigo will eventually figure out and use to defeat Aizen.

Aizens hypnotism controls all 5 of a persons senses but it is permanent so therefore he must have modified the persons soul or left some kind of soul trojan behind that allows him to control the persons senses. If we look back to the Ichigo versus Kenpachi fight, at one point Ichigo went inside his soul and became one with Zangetsu who also stoped his fatal wound from bleeding. Therefore it is entirely possible that Ichigo can go back inside his soul and remove the hypnotism and have Zangetsu guard against it so Aizens hypnotism will no longer work.

midgard

2005-12-23, 14:38

I'm sure the writers will find a way to defeat his Shikai. If you look at Tousen's Bankai the one thing that Tousen has advantage over Kyoukasuigetsu is that his bankai stop the enemy from sensing spirit force. So theoretically, the person under complete hypnosis should still be able to sense spirit force. And i'm sure at which point Aizen would pull out his Bankai and woop that guy's ass.

As far as Aizen is concern it doesn't seem logical that he is the main villian. You have the popularity of the manga, the big eye when Aizen escape, and most importantly I don't see how the Hollow would make Aizen their leader just like that.

It would seem more logical that Aizen made a pact with the leader of the hollow to destroy Soul Society. In return he gets his army and place in the Hollow world. IMO the Hollow Leader, which we still have yet to discover, would be stronger than Aizen. of course this is pure speculation on my part :P

Ziv

2005-12-23, 23:09

Keep in mind that Aizen can use his Shikai without saying his sword's name since he can use Bankai. We know he has a Bankai because Kenpachi was the only person to become a captain without achieveing Bankai. And to all you people who say that he might've hypnotised everyone into thinking he has a Bankai in order to become captain, If he's sopposedly at his physical limit as he says he is, and is desparate enough to arange this elaborate plot to get the whatchamathingy out of rukia and join the Hollows, do you really think he hasn't investigated Bankai?

Fafnir

2005-12-23, 23:35

I'd say that it is not total hypnosis. Simply because, if Aizen wanted to get things done quickly, he could just give everyone an illusion of incredible pain, perhaps enough to cause enough mental trauma to turn them all into vegitables.

Therefore, I doubt it is complete hypnosis so far.

NoSanninWa

2005-12-24, 01:10

Ichimaru

2005-12-24, 02:11

Ichigo will need to carry with him a mirror when aizen goes bankai, it reflects back to aizen and he be under his own spell

ScytheBlade

2005-12-24, 02:18

I think Aizen's Bankai gives him super ub3r 1337 Lvl. 100 Death Arts Magic with COMPLETE control of everyone :D.

sarrah

2005-12-24, 15:15

ichimaru...even though thats rational idea...but its lame and over used!!!

Phenomenal

2005-12-27, 13:19

i think that Zaraki Kenpachi would beat Aizen

Grees

2005-12-27, 15:01

I would speculate that Aizen's bankai will create some kind of world of its own, trapping all who saw his release instantly, in this world Aizen can manipulate anything and everything, not just hypnotism but also physically alter the world around him.

GundamZZ

2005-12-28, 01:42

Speculation about Aizen..Hmm
My first impression is

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1272/1135075457041db1a2xv.jpg
According to the news article, he's quite popular Korean actor in Japan. Some otaku see him as symbol of Japan's anti-Korea sentiment. Yep, he looks awefully like some captain. Coincident? Doubtful.

About beating illusionary power. It's about when to beat it, not how to beat it. There are many many villains with illusionary power being beaten in other manga. Even Aizen has no weakness, he's no exception. No need to close eyes, bring mirror or building robot assissin. According to the physics law of manga, weak guy can beat strong guy as long as he has strong will. The best example is Saint Seiya. According to second physics law of manga, sword is more powerful than gun. Ichigo will win by sword.

Baphomet

2005-12-28, 06:50

Hi everyone,

I just registered and thinking of participating in these wonderful discussions.
l
Back to the topic,

I think Aizen's shikai is not as overpowered as it seems to be. The reason why we think its so powerful because Aizen is using it in the situation that fits its ability best - which is fighting against human opponents.

To destroy inanimate things however...Aizen's shikai lose badly to more straightforward damage zanpaktous such as Ichigo's, Renji's, Byakuya's and many others, even Momo's.

Potatochobit

2005-12-28, 06:53

its actually very weak since it only works on those that are mezmorized by it already and does not affect others.

however, aizen is still freaking overpowered.

NoSanninWa

2005-12-28, 07:00

Baphomet

2005-12-28, 07:03

My bad, Madam NoSanninWa.

Anyway, whatever way the good guys use to beat Aizen in the end, I hope it will be something more creative than just having Ichigo reaching a super-hypnotism-immune willpower.

I dont mind Ichigo, the hero, beating the big bad boss in the end but lets hope he do it in a more fashionable way than bruteforce.

NoSanninWa

2005-12-28, 07:06

I hope for that as well. Yet, somehow, I suspect he'll overcome the "absolute hypnosis" through a typical shounen exercise of willpower. He'll yell out Saori's name and simply overcome the problem.... or something like that. (Maybe, "Shaka no kataki?" ;))

PS. Please pardon my lame Saint Seiya jokes.

Grees

2005-12-28, 10:38

No ofcourse not, its hypnotism not magic, Aizen cant make the wall disappear, its still there, the victim just cant see it.

Rachy

2005-12-28, 11:01

Though he could make someone think hes running through the wall :heh:

Rurik

2005-12-28, 11:56

kljs

2005-12-28, 23:04

Dark`

2005-12-29, 00:00

I don't see a way anyone could beat him. Ichigo already saw his shikai, so he can't beat him. and Ichigo was in bankai mode.
It was never clear whether or not Ichigo actually did see Aizen's Shikai...hence all the speculation being done...

NoSanninWa

2005-12-29, 00:16

so, the conclusion is that Aizen is invinsible with shikai and with bankai he is god. after reading what everyone said in here.

I don't see a way anyone could beat him. Ichigo already saw his shikai, so he can't beat him. and Ichigo was in bankai mode.
We know nothing about Aizen's bankai. That is just guessing. As for Ichigo having no chance against him, that is certainly correct... right now. Considering how much stronger Ichigo has gotten in the few weeks since he entered Soul Society, there is every chance he will be able to beat Aizen next month.

Funkatron

2005-12-29, 00:58

if he an effect all senses, an't he make you feel pain without touhing you?

Maybe thats his Bankai: make an illusion so real you think you are atually being attaked/cut when he's not moving a finger. Sorta like Itachi in Naruto

Kigo

2005-12-29, 01:41

I think Aizen got his powers from a third party. How does he contact Hollows into allying him? I think he's just a tool for someone else.

Or

Either that or he's a failed experiment. He said he did tried experiments with Hollows before, maybe he did one and tested it on himself. He wasn't completely successful but enough to give him a huge boost compared to the other captains. (I think Yamamoto can take him though >.>)

As for his Bankai, I can't really speculate on that... Look at Ichigo his Shikai is one thing but his Bankai was completely different. Isane did say Aizen's Soul Slayer was water based, if that isn't a complete lie it still might be...

Hisoka??

2005-12-29, 04:15

maybe urahara will make a robot with enough power to defeat aizen. the robot would be immune to hypnosis right? hmm dragonball............... :heh:

Grees

2005-12-29, 04:50

NoSanninWa

2005-12-29, 06:31

But you dont have to push at the wall, you could just standing in front of it all the time thinking you're walking pass it thanks to Aizen. Besides if you cant feel the wall doesnt mean it isnt there, no matter how hard you push it doesnt bring down the wall.
And i suppose you can actually notice the wall when Aizen did a lousy job, like tell you that there's a road, but doesnt tell you that you reached the end of it without problems. If theres a wall in the middle of the road, you will bump into it then, but like Komamura, you can realise you are being hypnotise when seeing something that doesnt stroke, but you cant do anything about it.
He can't make you think you're walking when you aren't. He can only make you oblivious to the wall while you are controlling your body just the way you think you are.

You'd obviously stop moving when you hit the wall unless you were so strong that you could just stroll right through it. (I suspect that is what would happen if Kenpachi walked into a wall.) The question is if you would realize you weren't managing to walk forward...

1.0.7.

2005-12-29, 07:50

i don't know about you guys..but i realy want to know more about aizen's past more than what his plans are for thefuture..

Grees

2005-12-29, 10:13

He can't make you think you're walking when you aren't. He can only make you oblivious to the wall while you are controlling your body just the way you think you are.

You cant be sure of that. If you assume that Aizen use his shikai powers in his fights with Hitsugaya, Komamura and Renji, all of them thought they hit Aizen but in fact their sword arms might just hanging in mid-air, so they must feel some resistance. If he can make your body think that your sword has been block by something that actually isnt there, surely he can make you think you are walking while you're not.

Altharion

2005-12-29, 12:30

Hisoka??

2005-12-29, 14:07

he cant make you think your walking when your not, with his perfect hypnosis he can control your senses but he cant control your body.

he cant make renji attack ichigo, but he can make renji think ichigo is aizen and then attack ichigo.

erm actually if he can affect your senses he can make you think you are indeed walking

for example, if he made your feet feel and not feel the ground alterntively and give you the sensation of muscles moving..........

Altharion

2005-12-29, 15:43

bah i just contradicted myself in the earlier post.

what i meant was, he can make you think your walking but he cant control you and make you walk.

Altharion

2005-12-29, 18:04

he created a mirage of himself from nothing against komamura.

Altharion

2005-12-29, 18:20

it wasnt gin, gin was holding rukia then and you dont see rukia next to aizen then.

after the hadou 90, gin compliments aizen while holding rukia.

Hidden Heart

2005-12-29, 20:41

I have come up with a few thoughts while reading this. 1. Could the hollows be working with Aizen because they are under his hypnosis. 2. If Aizens hypnosis doesn't affect Hollows, could they be his downfall?

I'm also curious to find out if someone is living and they see Aizens shikai, will Aizen still have control over them if they die and go to Soul Society?

Another downfall to Aizen could be the "There is strength in numbers..." morale. Episode 62 was it? they got many people to come at Aizen that he either lost his concentration or knew that the Menoses would save him. If it is the first option they might be able to break his concentration so that one person could break through the hypnosis. Aizen couls fight Byakuya, Ichigo and Yourichi while Ishida (if he gets his powers back which I hope he does) and Chad riddle him with blasts and arrows. This might be able to make it so at least one person hit him. or Aizen is so powerful that he could put everyone into hypnosis no matter how many people join the fight. I am plagued by a thought of Aizen putting everyone in SS, Earth, and Hueco Mundo into Hypnosis at the same time. Sortta like the Matrix,
creepy

Altharion

2005-12-29, 20:43

but that wasnt your original question, he could of course make gin look like aizen but he didnt.

hollows arent immune to his hypnosis.

he knew the menos was going to save them, gin and tousen was just watching him when soi fong and shihouin came.

Altharion

2005-12-29, 22:40

there isnt a limit told so far, but he cant control free will.

ScytheBlade

2005-12-30, 01:18

Why the hell does everyone think that if you are blind you can own Aizen? Dammit, even if you weren't under his hynopsis he would kick your ass with a Lvl. 90 Death Arts Spell. Remember that the spell wasn't even 1/3 done when Komamura got owned. Ok, pretend that Komamura was under Aizen's hynopsis. But Aizen still got the skills to own him in 2 seconds. Now THAT is saying something.

NoSanninWa

2005-12-30, 03:07

As Aizen said, he already has nearly perfect skills in the 4 areas of shinigami power: Sword combat, Hand combat, Movement and Death Arts.

If his abilities in all these areas are maxed before he even becomes a hollow hybrid, then there isn't anyone in Soul Society that could have beaten him one-on-one, even if he didn't use any illusions. His illusions are just the salt rubbed in the wound that is Aizen's supreme power. Of course, once he gains the power of a hybrid hollow he'll make that strength look pathetic. Our heroes should probably just kill themselves right now, in recognition of how hopelessly pathetic they are before the new god of heaven.

All hail Aizen! I'm ready to swear my allegiance to Aizen the god! Fighting him is just the final act of a fool. All hail Aizen!

Altharion

2005-12-30, 07:12

the sense of touch, he tricked hitsugaya with it so he can fool you to make you think your walking.

MobiuS

2005-12-30, 09:08

Er ... did anyone here think that even though Aizen may hypnotize the individual, you coul undergo some sort of transformation and have another individual take over the body. This new individual is not hypnotized and therefore isnt susceptible to the Shikai?

Ok fine fine .. what Im saying is ... Ichigo is clearly going to have to work with his hollow-Ichigo right? WHat happens if Ichigo is caught in the illusion and Hollow Ichi takes over? Its technically a brand-new individual right? So that means Hollow Ichi would have to face-off versus Aizen right?

And the 4th Captain found flaws in the illusion even under complete hypnosis. Doesnt that mean if you're very observant you could notice mistakes in Aizen's hypnosis?

MobiuS

2005-12-30, 09:13

Altharion

2005-12-30, 09:19

no, even though unohana didnt find an error in aizens corpse, she still suspected a traitor in soul society and therefore went to the room 46 quarters where the only place a traitor can hide without difficulty in soul society. so she didnt find flaws but both toushiro and retsu was convinced that there was something wrong in the 46's decision.

BrokenWingz

2005-12-30, 10:30

Would the hypnosis work on the faux body
e.g i remember back in the hollow arc which i never really saw Rukia eat anything(sense of taste etc) and so on forth.

NoSanninWa

2005-12-30, 11:07

Its a damn shame this is a Shonen Anime/Manga ... and that means the bad guy is losing to Hollow Ich....oops. The hero. It ALWAYS happens. Im rooting for Orochimaru in Naruto, but his time will come sooner or later :(

Aizen is a god ... but even gods can get backstabbed ..... :heh:
Not Aizen. He's too smart for that. He's going to be the first villian to ever completely defeat a shounen hero.

All hail God Aizen!

Forever

2005-12-30, 11:16

Not Aizen. He's too smart for that. He's going to be the first villian to ever completely defeat a shounen hero.

All hail God Aizen!

Somehow he gets overconfident and dies a lame death... Shounen animes mostly have the good guys win.... He is doomed to die by ichigo's hand...

Altharion

2005-12-30, 11:42

which i hope kubo wont do.

evilryu

2005-12-30, 11:45

I'm going go out on a limb here and speculate that Aizen's bankai will cast off a spell that is absolutely impossible to dispel for those under its influence, a technique that can completely submerge the victim in to a parallel world where time for he or she passes much slower for in an instant in the real world, 24 hours passes in this dimension.

What really makes this technique deadly however, is the fact that the Aizen can do anything to his victim that he wants, from making him relive moments of his life, to torturing him for 72 hours at a time with the blink of an eye.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6090/uchihaaizen5gs.jpg

NoSanninWa

2005-12-30, 11:55

MobiuS

2005-12-30, 12:08

Watch Aizen slip on some blood and fall on dead Ichigo's Zanpaktou and die. >_<*

Either way ... Aizen is toast. Im rooting for Gin though. That smiley demon better not lose .. or Ill cry .. *goes to a corner to pray*

no, even though unohana didnt find an error in aizens corpse, she still suspected a traitor in soul society and therefore went to the room 46 quarters where the only place a traitor can hide without difficulty in soul society. so she didnt find flaws but both toushiro and retsu was convinced that there was something wrong in the 46's decision.

I somehow translated her statement to mean she found flaws in the body of Aizen as she was examining it ...
Aizen cant create illusions of things hes not completely adept with. Medical Unohana knows more about dead bodies than he does. She would notice things and he cant illusion her to believe she is seeing them/not seeing them since he doesnt know as much about the body as she would. Hopefully.

Altharion

2005-12-30, 12:23

NoSanninWa

2005-12-30, 12:45

It doesnt matter if she knows more about dead bodies then Aizen since the spell Aizen cast was that he was murdered, so even though she would do all examinations as possible she would still come to the same conclusion which was that he was dead and it was not a gigai, she said that when kaname and sajin visited her.
You are only guessing that is true. We don't know that Aizen can have people imagine things on their own, filling in details for themselves. Perhaps he needs to create an illusion out of his own knowlege without their subconcious help.

Altharion

2005-12-30, 12:54

but normal realworld hypnosis is like that, hypnotist hypnotize that they are driving a car, and then the hypnotized person hunks the wheel. which wasnt in the description the hypnotist gave. (this is from a hypnotist show in my country)

NoSanninWa

2005-12-30, 13:09

Baphomet

2005-12-30, 14:09

Quite true. However if the power works like Aizen described, then he can only make people see things, not also do things or believe things. That means either it isn't like real world hypnosis or else Aizen lied about what it does. (Either could be true.)

I think Aizen's shikai ability should be more accurately labeled as..

Absolute Hallucination

It works much similar that way compared to how hypnotism suppose to work, in the real world that is.

Cool_CR

2005-12-31, 00:21

A few things about Aizens fights when he stops Ichigos attack with 1 finger the attack is a slow and underpowerd (and Ichigo has an o f*** who have i taken on moment.) when he fails to wound Zaraki he
had much more spirt force is flowing of him, When the fox guys attack is stoped he doesnt even bat an eyelid (the fox) its like he was expecting it. (also note captains are 100% imune to vice captain level attacks gin v hinamory shrug of the sholder defelts energy ball)
also the older captains seem stronger than the younger ones.) And i remember chads energy blast being deflected with 1 hand, BK grabed the black zangetsu while Ichigo was still bouncing of the walls. To sum up
1. all captians have uber strom hands Ichigo included as
A. he brakes a shinki with his fist thats right with his fist.
B. holow verson of him grabs BK sword.
2. if ichigo had gone hollow when Aizen attacked him Aizen would have had a omg iv monologed my self to death moment (a fate that awiets all bigmouthed villens 12th captian included)

MobiuS

2005-12-31, 00:46

Aizen said he can controls your senses. But he doesnt control your mind. If he controlled your mind as well ... he woulda made Rukia walk to him and then take the device. He creates illusions. He can make you see, hear, smell, feel and taste what he wants you to ... but he cannot control your reaction to such things. Unohana prolly saw the body and is like ... "oh! wheres the cerebral nodes" or something random like that. If he didnt include them in the illusions, her mind would notice it. Her seeing body organs and feeling and touching them (or tasting ... ew ... ) can be controlled by Aizen but the moment he forgets to ensure the illusion has a certain organ ... she wil notice it is missing. And her mind isnt under control to ignore something like that.

XxChris43xX

2006-01-01, 15:11

I read the manga and so the recent events in the anime didn't surprise me too much... but in the anime I realized even better how much stronger than all others Aizen is! He owned Hitsugaya, then owned Renji and Ichigo (he stopped tensa zangetsu with a finger!!!) and the fox captain... he seems to be a god to me... I mean he even became the leader of hollows later in the story... so rather than asking "who is really Ichigo?" we should ask "who is really Aizen?". I think a huge part of his power come from his absolute hypnosis... no matter how strong an opponent is, if you can control his five senses then he's just a puppet in your hands and so we can safely assume that Aizen is the strongest simply because he can make all the strong ones his puppets and because he's strong by himself as well.
Is there a way to defeat such an opponent? The only way to resist to Aizen's absolute hypnosis is to be blind... so if one wants to defeat Aizen does he need to become blind?!?
Aizen becomes the leader of the Hollows? Is this accurate? Perhaps.... I mean, how is it that his soul slayer is so powerful, complete hypnosis? Thats just too much... When was it that Aizen Hypnotized all of Soul Society? Wouldn't his attack fail if everyone would just close their eyes?.... all their other senses except vision would be affected...

Desti-Fate

2006-01-01, 15:53

Aizen is powerful, but not invincible. He knows this. If he could have defeated Soul Society, he would have- but he ran away. Remember that if someone could surprise Aizen, and attack before Aizen puts up an illusion, or use an area-of-effect attack like Byaukuya's then Aizen's shikai could easily lose.

His whole plan revolved around confusing Soul Society and then escaping with the Hougyoku. He's not really that overpowered- he's just damn good at not fighting the enemy's strengths. He would have lost quickly if he did.

Dark`

2006-01-01, 19:48

Aizen becomes the leader of the Hollows? Is this accurate? Perhaps.... I mean, how is it that his soul slayer is so powerful, complete hypnosis? Thats just too much... When was it that Aizen Hypnotized all of Soul Society? Wouldn't his attack fail if everyone would just close their eyes?.... all their other senses except vision would be affected...
Aizen's basically the leader of the Arrancar...but we've yet to see anything that indicates that he is the leader of all Hollows.

wingsky

2006-01-01, 19:53

Aizen's basically the leader of the Arrancar...but we've yet to see anything that indicates that he is the leader of all Hollows.

I doubt he would be the leader of all Hollows... It wouldn't be clever of him to go and live with the enemy... no matter how confident he is of his abilities.

Perhaps a student of the leader or the prince of the hollows or something like that?

Dark`

2006-01-01, 20:31

I doubt he would be the leader of all Hollows... It wouldn't be clever of him to go and live with the enemy... no matter how confident he is of his abilities.

Perhaps a student of the leader or the prince of the hollows or something like that?
The only reason I mentioned "leader of all Hollows" is because of a previous question. My own thoughts on this coincide with the thoughts of some others: that Aizen basically made a pact with the leader of the Hollows. He would use the Hougyoku to increase the strength of the Hollow army, and in turn they'd give him test subjects and grant him asylum or something like that.

Souzouryoku

2006-01-01, 22:04

The only reason I mentioned "leader of all Hollows" is because of a previous question. My own thoughts on this coincide with the thoughts of some others: that Aizen basically made a pact with the leader of the Hollows. He would use the Hougyoku to increase the strength of the Hollow army, and in turn they'd give him test subjects and grant him asylum or something like that.

That makes sense to me. I doubt Aizen is an Arrancar himself. And if he was Leader of the Hollows, I'm sure that he would look more like a hollow than a shinigami (well..most likely at least). I'm also sure he would have bragged about it in his little monolouge to Ichigo and Renji at the end of the SS arc.

Are we even sure there is a leader? I really don't think the hollows could be that "organized". Though, then again, it could just be a matter of power, in which the rest of the hollows are merely afraid of the Leader.
Did anybody actually state the fact that there definitly was a hollow leader?

Altharion

2006-01-02, 16:33

i believe hollows follow the chain of command by strenght making vastoorodes the leaders.

and about kyoukaisuigetsu, if the absolute hypnosis power are on par with the real world:

http://www.answers.com/topic/hypnosis?gwp=19

An artificially induced altered state of consciousness, characterized by heightened suggestibility and receptivity to direction.

This clearly says that he doesnt have to add in the slightest details to make a perfect hypnosis.

Placing persons in a drowsy, sleeplike state in which they allegedly become vulnerable to the suggestions made by the hypnotist. Hypnosis may also be used to tap into the unconscious and is often characterized by vivid recall of memories and fantasies. These properties make hypnosis a useful tool in psychotherapy. Hypnosis also has sinister implications, for subjects may be manipulated to perform embarrassing actions or be susceptible to carrying out the hypnotist's commands after the hypnosis session (posthypnotic suggestion).

this means he cant control someone under hypnosis but he can make them carry out his command, which pretty makes them his pawn.

NoSanninWa

2006-01-02, 17:33

Sorry, to disturb you, but actual hypnosis has nothing to do with it.

Just as crickets have nothing to do with Tousen's bankai, despite his bankai being named "Cricket Demon Of Darkness", actual hypnosis has nothing to do with Aizen's technique.

"Absolute hypnosis" is just a name!

Altharion

2006-01-02, 21:57

no the name is kyoukaisuigetsu which means mirror, water or something and has the abillity of absolute hypnosis.

*checks v20 again* i'm pretty sure though.

defrule

2006-01-04, 17:26

I remember reading somewhere here that achieving Bankai means you do not need to call the Soul Slayers name to summon Shinkai. Why must Ichimaru say "Shoot to kill, Shinsou"?

NoSanninWa

2006-01-04, 17:47

Maybe he just really like saying "Shoot to kill!" :D :D

Anyway, please get back on topic. We're discussing Aizen, not Gin's shikai.

Thewanderer

2006-01-04, 17:55

I remember reading somewhere here that achieving Bankai means you do not need to call the Soul Slayers name to summon Shinkai. Why must Ichimaru say "Shoot to kill, Shinsou"?
Because it sounds cool.

:cool:

Streetor

2006-01-05, 22:11

I hope Aizen's bankai isn't as cheapass as his shikai.

If it were a videogame, I'd be screaming at the screen "Oh that's bullshit! He can't do that!"

Mousuke

2006-01-06, 00:03

*new to this thread*

Obviously, Aizen is the main bad guy (or so we hope...can you imagine if there was somebody in charge of him?) so I don't think we're going to really see him until the end of the manga. I mean, yeah, we'll see him behind the scenes from time to time so we can learn what his motives are and whatnot, but in the end I think it'll come to a final showdown between Aizen and Freaking Powerful Ichigo.

soulfly

2006-01-08, 10:32

I think Aizen's shikai ability should be more accurately labeled as..

Absolute Hallucination

It works much similar that way compared to how hypnotism suppose to work, in the real world that is.
I'd agree with this one. I guess it's just the fansubs translated the word as 'hypnosis' instead of hallucination..... since in Japanese, some words may have different meanings when translated into other languages.

By looking at the way Aizen's shikai ability.... most likely that it creates hallucination instead of hypnosis.

kagenojutsu

2006-01-09, 14:26

i what to know what is aizens banki

Soluzar

2006-01-09, 14:42

i what to know what is aizens banki

Absolute Pwnage. He just wins. When he releases his Bankai, his sword changes into the shape of the roman letters "PWNED" and the kanji for "You fail it." appear on his victim's forehead, just before the victim loses all his reiatsu. The manga ended, dude, didn't you hear? :heh:

astrallionheart

2006-01-10, 04:02

I dunno if any of you guys have ever read the Dragonball manga, but Goku learned alot of tricks when he was young. One of them he used in the Boudakai tournament against Tenshenhan, which is almost exactly the same as what Aizen does with his shikai "hypnosis."

He can "teleport" (or flash step, which to me seems like just a variation of DBZ's teleport) and leave behind an after-image which lasts long enough to make you think he's still there, and attack it. Tenshen fired some blasts at Goku's after image only to realize it was still standing afterwards, then turned around only to get smacked silly by Goku.

Now the only "blatant" shows of his shikai seem to be this after-image thing. (It's still debatable whether his barehanded blocks are truly an act of his shikai, or if he really has surpassed shinigami power limits, and his shikai is merely one of many things he has up his sleeve, which I believe is more likely).

In other words, I'm saying, the only offensive variation of his shikai we've seen so far is his "after-image" illusion. (I guess making his sword look like various things could be considered an offensive skill as well).

Grees

2006-01-10, 09:48

Aizen's shikai is already so powerfull that i would say his bankai can only disappoint. Dont be surprise if he releases his bankai and it turns him into a Teletubbie.

MobiuS

2006-01-10, 18:01

Aizen's shikai is already so powerfull that i would say his bankai can only disappoint. Dont be surprise if he releases his bankai and it turns him into a Teletubbie.

OMG! Ill rather be hypnotized than face a teletubby singing that ever-so-gay song.

"Tinkie-winkie!! Pipsy! La-la. Poooooo!"

OMG!!!!

*kills Grees for even bringing it up*

Raihen

2006-07-06, 14:36

Hi

I was thinking about Aizen and his power. Trully we saw him masacrating Ichigo, Hitsuagya, Reiji and Komamura in few sec, but is he really Strong Shinigami ? I know few people can blame me or something but ... His True STRENGTH is his Soul Slayer Ability, but what about his abilities in Zanjutsu, Hohou, Kidou and Hakuda ? After all he isn't captain from so long. I mean Yamamoto he is the oldest Shinigami and probably the strongest. Then We have First two captains : Ukitake and Kyouraku. They are Shinigami form very very long time and have lots of time to became very strong. Then probably next oldest Shinigamis are Urahara and Yoruichi, probably there was some other captains before them, but they probably died. For me this Shinigamis are Oldest, other are not really that old and Strong. After this 5 next is Aizen probably, because we really don't know when he was chosen to captain, but that wasn't so long ago, because in Komamura memories he still was Vice-Captain. Even If he is very talented he hadn't so much time to Train his abilities like Ukitake, Kyouraku, Urahara, Yourichi and of course Yamamoto. IMO he is weaker than Yamamato, Ukitake, Kyourake and probably Urahara&Yourichi ...Of Course you can say he was genius, but ... I don't really think he is stronger than Ukitake&Kyouraku(maybe same, but not stronger ...). Only thing thah make him look so strong is his Soul Slayer ability ... That is my opinion about Aizen. Please Comment this.

EDIT: Ahh and sorry about my english i know it isn't very good XD

Zek

2006-07-06, 16:18

Ichigo couldn't have been affected by his hypnosis due to never seeing his zanpakutoh's release. Thus, we know for sure that stopping Ichigo's (weakened) bankai attack with one finger was his real strength, not to mention the kidou he showed against Komamura. We can't say for sure how strong he is in actual combat, but even without all the tricks he still seems like the strongest person we've seen so far.

Raihen

2006-07-06, 18:00

IMO Ichigo's injuries was really critical and he was weakened a lot. For kidou, yes that is amazing he can use so powerfull kidou. But still I think Kyouraku/Ukitake/Yamamoto>Aizen, because we didn't see they real power vs Ichigo or other weaker shinigami and we don't really know are they stronger than Aizen, but still from age I Speculate that Aizen is weaker. Or they just made Aizen Super Genius Shinigami ... I would say that sucks somehow ...

emessen

2006-07-06, 18:56

from chapter 171 or episode 60

「そしてその発動条件は敵に鏡花水月の解放の瞬間を見せること」

"soshite sono hatsudou jouken wa teki ni kyouka suigetsu no kaihou no shunkan wo miseru koto"

did Aizen say the enemy has to see the exact, definitive, absolute moment of kyouka suigetsu being released into shikai

or

did he say the enemy just has to see kyouka suigetsu while it is released for only a moment

if someone just has to see kyouka suigetsu while it's released in order to be hypnotized then
anyone could have been hypnotized at anytime

because while Aizen was at the Soukyouku with Rukia he DID have his sword
released... how else did he hypnotize Komamura into thinking he was still next to
Tousen but was actually right in front of him...

so ichigo being under kyouka suigetsu's hypnosis is plausible if you just have to
see it while it is released

Ichy

2006-07-07, 05:24

how else did he hypnotize Komamura into thinking he was still next to
Tousen but was actually right in front of him...

so ichigo being under kyouka suigetsu's hypnosis is plausible if you just have to
see it while it is released

Aizen relased his zanpakuto during the Taicho meeting?
That`s why Komamura was hypnosed :)

emessen

2006-07-07, 06:39

what i am trying to say is... during that confrontation he HAD it released...

so while it was released he hypnotized Komamura... since while it is released he is able to dupe anyone who has seen it

but we never SAW it being released.. but without any QUESTION he HAD his zanpakutou released

so... if he can dupe anyone who has seen the released form of his zanpakutou, having Ichigo fall prey to
Kyouka Suigetsu is plausible

optics

2006-10-18, 20:53

ScytheBlade

2006-10-18, 21:20

Still, stopping a Bankai with one finger and instantly pwning a captain with Lvl. 90 Kidou is impressive.

We haven't seen Ichigo get pwned like that since..... the fillers.

Zu Ra

2006-10-18, 21:21

This is what I'm thinkin, laugh if you want. Zaraki Kenpachi will be the one to take down Aizen. I would say the story would have Zaraki losing to Aizen and then he questions himself and then he figures out the name of his zanpaktou after that he goes after Aizen again. Zaraki beats Aizen without using his Bankai.... although I really hate to see Zaraki lose a battle. Plus he can always take off his eyepatch or just switch it after Aizen's release or whatever aha

Actually Zaraki questioning himself and trying to know the name of his zanapkuto has already been done when he loses to Ichigo . Zaraki doesnt have a shikai let alone a bankai . Also Zaraki is prone to Aizen's hypnosis (shikai) .

The only one , not prone to his shikai is Tosen . And Tosen could defeat him but Tosen is one of Aizen's cronies .

Rurik

2006-10-18, 22:53

The only one , not prone to his shikai is Tosen . And Tosen could defeat him but Tosen is one of Aizen's cronies .
[/FONT]

Well, I think Tousen has an edge as been inmune of Aizens Shikai..but I dont know about Touse even having a remote shot at defeating Aizen...(I know you used Could)

ScytheBlade

2006-10-19, 01:31

Actually Zaraki questioning himself and trying to know the name of his zanapkuto has already been done when he loses to Ichigo . Zaraki doesnt have a shikai let alone a bankai . Also Zaraki is prone to Aizen's hypnosis (shikai) .

The only one , not prone to his shikai is Tosen . And Tosen could defeat him but Tosen is one of Aizen's cronies .

If your formula is correct then:

Kenpachi>Tosen>Aizen>Komamura

But then Aizen>Ichigo>Renji

And then Ichigo>Kenpachi + Byakuya

Yet, Hitsugaya = Gin (based on what we saw). Yet Aizen>Hitsugaya

Still, Gin>Ishida (with spirit power)

Yet Ishida>Mayuri

BUT.... Mayuri's poison>All without antidote.

So you can understand that this is a constant loop. It is safe to assume that Aizen is the strongest because so far he has pwn'ed everyone and not lost a single battle (yet).

Zu Ra

2006-10-19, 01:56

Actually I think you are not aware about Tosen's inability to see . Tosen is blind , thus Aizen's shikai has no effect on him

So eventhough your Power equation is indeed correct , you are not getting the point.

Tosen is tottaly un-affected by Aizen's Hypnosis . So among all the people you have mentioned Tosen has a far better chance

optics

2006-10-19, 03:16

So among all the people you have mentioned Tosen has a far better chance

What about Hollow Ichigo? (is there a better name for that?) I'm sure he can pull something crazy. Could hollows be affected by his shikai too?

saravis

2006-10-19, 08:48

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. If Aizen's true power only lied in his Soul Slayer than why did he give that big speech about the limits of a shinigami and the means to pass that limitation with the hougyoku(sp). It sounds like to me he has reached the limits of a shinigami, excelling in all four fields of combat. If you think about it he demonstrated that very thing at the end of Soul Society Arc. Flash step against Renji, stopping a blade with only his finger, level 90 spell without incantation, and even though we didn't really see anything in concerning with skill with the blade I have no doubts his ability is no less.

The Small One

2006-10-19, 12:10

It sounds like to me he has reached the limits of a shinigami, excelling in all four fields of combat.
He may have reached all his limits, however this doesn't necessarily mean, that he excels in all fields... every indviduum has his very specific limits, there are some with pretty high limits, and probably the most with some sort of average limits.
Aizen's limits are probably pretty low compared to the other captains, or else he wouldn't even need to exceed them.

Ichimaru

2007-01-17, 01:08

So heres the problem, we have yet to see him been push to the limit, and i think he is overrated or we been duped into believing his very strong.

He claims himself to have no boundaries, but the fact that he pwned all VCs in showing his shikai so they were under his spell the moment he showed them whether they were in the academy or going up the ranks.

Now back to the hitsuguya fight, very interesting.....no matter what hitsuguya is just a little punk still havent quit breast milk (old saying :D) he goes shikai/bankai and was pwned the moment aizen release his shikai.

The moment he released his shikai, he not oonly pwned hitsaguya, BUT ALSO THE VIEWERS :( , so now we are all under his hypnosis :(:( therefore we the viewers also got pwned.

As against the captains its just not all about shikai/bankai, as long your reiatsu is greater than the opponent you can not be hurt as shown in the ichigo vs kenpachi fight. KOno fox guy, is a low tier captain imo, so he was no threat to aizen.

Against ichigo, ichigo was already exsausted from the byukuya fight, and when aizen blockd his bankai with his fingers, as a viewer it lookd all cool and showed his strength, but we are still under his hypnosis. Again he pwned the viewers again, under his hypnosis he can do anything for viewers to believe as he percieves :(:(. So my conclusion here is that we as viewers got pwned by aizen on one single move and from then on watever he does we all think his strong, he claims to not underestimate him, but imo his overrated.

RECAP:
VIEWERS PWNED.

Seras

2007-01-17, 01:55

You're funny, har har har. ( :

Thewanderer

2007-01-17, 02:10

I agree. Aizen also made it seem like the fillers are crap.

WE NEED TO BREAK HIS SPELL!!!

Scep

2007-01-17, 02:41

I think the story will be somehting like that. Tousen will attack aizen because he is not bound by kyouga suigetsu. However, aizen beats him. During the battle, tousen somehow stops aizen's ability of shikai. Then ichigo finishes him off.

OR Ichigo just blows his shikai away with his reiatsu. Which isnt possible.

Anyway, zaraki wont be the one fighting aizen. It'll be ichigo.

Lendial

2007-01-17, 03:08

well main villain vs protaganist is a given.

it would seem like the story currently wants u to belive aizen is a near demi-god and he has been shown as such, but its only a matter of time till ichi surpases. first, his minions, then his right hand man(men), then finaly big bad aizen himself.

how odd if ichi didnt eventualy gut aizen.

hdx514

2007-01-17, 03:58

So heres the problem, we have yet to see him been push to the limit, and i think he is overrated or we been duped into believing his very strong.
aizen is overrated by none other than kubo, which makes it official. read his databook captain descriptions before you make these statements. there's got to be an english souls translation somewhere

As against the captains its just not all about shikai/bankai, as long your reiatsu is greater than the opponent you can not be hurt as shown in the ichigo vs kenpachi fight. KOno fox guy, is a low tier captain imo, so he was no threat to aizen.
this is total BS. what if in a fight between A and B both are injured? does that mean their reiatsu are EXACTLY the same? so if A's reiatsu is greater than B, can he stand there for 10 minutes and take no damage?!
secondly, according to your logic, the very fact that aizen's shikai is working simultaneously on all captains and VCs would mean that his reiatsu is higher than them all. to overcome that, you need to find someone with reiatsu much higher than the captain with the highest reiatsu.

Against ichigo, ichigo was already exsausted from the byukuya fight, and when aizen blockd his bankai with his fingers, as a viewer it lookd all cool and showed his strength, but we are still under his hypnosis. Again he pwned the viewers again, under his hypnosis he can do anything for viewers to believe as he percieves :(:(. So my conclusion here is that we as viewers got pwned by aizen on one single move and from then on watever he does we all think his strong, he claims to not underestimate him, but imo his overrated.
the ichigo's exhausted/finger stopping was just an illusion argument was dropped when aizen's crappy subordinate namely grimmjow who aizen could crush like an ant stopped a fully powered ichigo's bankai with fingers in UNRELEASED state ages ago. bankai ichigo is SLOW, WEAK and worth crap besides getsuga, and stopping his full powered tensa zangetsu is not impressive whatsoever, it's the most basic thing to qualify one as a "main enemy" of the current arc. stay up to date

therebel21

2007-01-17, 20:31

Aizen's shika abilty is not 100% foolproof as in the case with Tousen. If he doesnt see the release, he prolly wont be affected.

But we cant forget that Aizen used the Demon Arts #90 at 1/3 power. He apperently recently aquired this skill because Gin was supprised at this.

We also cant forget his hand2hand skills. Yes Ichigo was exhausted after his battle but he attacked him as strong as he could only for his sword to be blocked by Aizens finger....not just his hand but his finger. We can only guess that his hand2hand attacks are very near the highest ranks.

We could prolly say the same thing about his flash step and the other type of fighting skill(i dun remember which one it is). I am basing this off of his speech about the limits of a shinigamis ability, when he was explaining what he was doing, it seemed to me that he was almost at the full limit. He wants to sit upon the throne of SS, maybe upon the throne of all 3 worlds. In order to do this he must reach the shinigami limit in all 4 areas, then he can start working on the hollow powers. If he doesnt reach the shinigami limit in all 4 areas, then he isnt completing his dream of being a god.

So in order to beat him first his shika must be defeated. When Ichigo beats that, he will have to deal with Azien being able to use 90% or more power of each of the skills of combat. Then we have to deal with his Bankai which he must have to have because he is the main villain. Imagine if Aizen didnt have a bankai, it would kinda ruin those powerup episodes :(

Aizen didnt have to use shika in several of his fights. He is a very well rounded fighter that can use any tool at his disposal. He can use demon arts against a very large bankai if he needed(kinda like renji vs Bak or against kom). He can use shika against other opponents as he sees fit. He can use flash step immensly(remember SS arc about being able to move around easily? im sure that he would have to use flash step to get around unnoticed, none of the other capts noticed it either....ya could say that they were still being hypnotised but that is along time to hypnotise every capt from him being noticed after room 46 was killed).

Aizen is the most powerfull excapt around due to all of his abilities(and that he is the main villan). Of course there may be others that are better than him in 1 or 2 areas(lol) but so far no one has shown the abilty to do anything to him.

Kweck

2007-01-25, 10:09

Ye i have to say that Aizen looks extremely powerful. But i also think that after what i seen in the anime so far(not read manga) that maybe old man Yamamoto(remember it was said in the anime that not even 2 captains can defeat him i think) ,or even Kenpachi could have a chance against him. Imagine Kenpachi if he knew the name of his SS, oh man that wouldve been ugly :S. But in the end i believe Ichigo will become powerful enough to beat Aizen.(Maybe in hollow form who knows :p) He is the main character after all.. Just my opinion :)

Enerccio

2007-01-25, 18:53

Just wait! How can Ichigo be in affect of Aizens hypnosis? He never saw Aizen shikai...

NoSanninWa

2007-01-26, 00:56

astrallionheart

2007-01-26, 02:50

So, you're saying that the weakness of Aizen's shikai is that it doesn't work on inanimate objects? Great! Now we just need to find a rather violent and reasonably dangerous cottage with a grudge against Aizen, then he's toast!

Oh, wait... "inanimate" objects.... hmmm... it might be tough to find an inanimate object that can defeat Aizen. His shikai might not effect them, but I'm sure he can turn most houses into kindling without needing his shikai. Still, thanks for pointing out this weakness. :rolleyes:

Heh, in D&D a lot of wizards send adamantine golems (constructs) to do their physical work. Those badboys (yes, with Bount-like runes inscribed on them =P) are a serious threat, they go through mobs like cheese, run through mountains, and can contend even with dragons (as they have no elemental weaknesses and are immune to magic). Takes a *hell* of a beating just to immobilize one temporarily.

hdx514

2007-01-26, 14:18

heh, this is bleach we're talking about and last time i checked there're no such "wizards". if there's one who can control things in bleach it's aizen (the gatekeepers). and if someone is powerful enough to control inanimate object with spirit strings like ishida did to his own body and use that to kick vaizard bankai aizen's butt, then chances are this person's reiatsu is so high he'll break aizen's hypnosis and kick his butt regardless.

astrallionheart

2007-01-26, 21:06

I would argue "kido" as the equivalent of magic, as clearly it's not limited to an individual. These are set spells with set levels of difficulty, which means they are drawing power from some external source, such as a magic or shadow weave. You can tell, because kido users don't tire from using kido, or if they do, clearly nowhere near when using abilities that clearly drain one's own spirit force (getsuga tenshou).

lommm

2007-01-27, 05:25

1. You can't be 100% sure of that.

2. The wording was vague enough that it is possible that he only needs to see the sword once it has been released. He might not need to see it actually being released.

3. Aizen can always show him later and put the whammy on Ichigo. The only way Ichigo can prevent this is to tear out his own eyeballs.

or perhaps wear his hollow mask...

i would just add to this that Byakuya explained to Renji that someone who has bankai can realease a shikai without saying an incantation. aizen has to have bankai to be a captain (since it's been stated that only kenpachi doesn't know his bankai). so aizen can release his shikai without saying anything. the only snag is: if i remember right, in the court of pure souls chapter when aizen almost killed hinamori and hitsu, he did do some stange dropping of his zanpakutou similar to byakuya's bankai. but again, it was vague...

basically my addition to this was just what we've already stated. we have no concrete way of knowing when he's actually releasing his shikai and we don't know if it looks any different or what...

i'm more concerned with what his arm looked like in the scene where he took hougyoku out of rukia. given some things we've seen in recent manga chapters with someone else's arm, i'm wondering how many other levels of release aizen has past bankai...

Nightengale

2007-01-27, 05:30

Bankai achievers DON'T NEED to call out the Zanpakutou's name to enter shikai mode.

So technically, Ichigo could've been hypnotized the moment he blocked Aizen's sword. Only that he was hypnotized to see that Aizen DIDN'T release his sword and still looked flamboyant.

The same principle can technically apply to everyone. I mean, he can probably draw his sword, release it into shikai, activate the hypnosis into making the others think that he DIDN't do anything with his sword, and sheate in back in 0.5 seconds with his speed. Though if he could've done that, he'd probably be able to destroy the entire Soul Society alone, so it's probably not THAT versatile.

The Small One

2007-01-27, 07:43

aizen has to have bankai to be a captain (since it's been stated that only kenpachi doesn't know his bankai).
Was it really stated this way?
Wasn't it more like "Usually a captain has to know bankai, but Kenpachi doesn't even know Shikai".
If it was, it doesn't really say, that there couldn't be other captains that doesn't know bankai. After all, you can become captain, if you get enough approvals, this doesn't necessarily require bankai.

So technically, Ichigo could've been hypnotized the moment he blocked Aizen's sword. Only that he was hypnotized to see that Aizen DIDN'T release his sword and still looked flamboyant.
Personally I don't think so.
IMHO the person who should become hypnotised has to see Aizen release his sword knowingly. So only when they know, that they see Aizen release his sword, it will really affect them. Othewise this whole restriction doesn't really make sense in the first place.

Scep

2007-01-27, 09:17

If i remember correctly, the wording was something to do with kenpachi being the only captain who dosent have bankai. Then again, kyouga suigetsu can let the person see anything, so technically he dosent need to have bankai. He can just make the person believe he has one.

Also, the theory that the person has to see Aizen release his sword knowingly is probable, because if he could just make the person see him release without letting him know he released, he didnt need to go through the trouble of getting all the VCs to look at his shikai.

Duzell

2007-03-02, 16:39

My friends and I was arguing about esapda power level and Aizen. Now my friend said Aizen power is low , it is only his Zanpaktou that is giving him that much power over anyone else. I however have to disagree, because not only did Aizen broke Renji Bankai attack but he also one-shotted Ichigo in Bankai form.

Then of course, I said that Bakukuya is stronger then Ichigo, because, Ichigo never manage to defeat Bakuya in a fight. He lost on philosophy alone but in terms of fighting he had Ichigo.

Thoughts?

MC Zandogg

2007-03-02, 17:14

i think that for a fact Aizen is stronger than all the espadas.......hence why deviant ones like Grimmjow dont just overthrow him......ALSO its a fact that aizen isnt controlling any1with his zanpaktou to keep them ffrom fighting them.....ALSO Aizen implies that he has mastered all 4 styles of combat(i think this because he was saying how when a shinigami masters all 4 styles that is there limit and the only way to break that limit is to become a hollow)......now about the bya and ichigo fight.......IF bya wanted he couldve ended the fight when his bankai hit ichigo when ichigo didnt release his bankai.....BUT ichigo could've lobbed byas head off with his bankai speed......ALSO when bya used his bankais "true" form (the condensed swords) he could've used em all to own ichigo......ALSO when bya used the white lighting kidou he couldve shot ichi's hearts but instead he shiot his shoulder......ALSO when bya and ichi did the final blow bya was still able to flash step so bya coulda beat him.......so all in all i think bya won the fight.........but u can also argue its not fair considering bya mastered his bakai and is like 300 years old while ichigo is only 15 years old......

wingdarkness

2007-05-01, 18:39

Why Aizen is awesome.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the world of villains I would have to say that Aizen is probably the best anime villain of all time. Not because he's powerful, not because he had everyone eating from his hand right before AND AFTER he slaughtered the entire upper echelon of the Soul Society.

No he's awesome because of his exit stage left. Yeah, pretty much he let EVERYONE in on his little secret, then gave the world a great big finger and let them in on another VERY BIG secret, he has Menos Grande eating from his fucking hand as well. Yeah, that's pretty big, not only was he playing the whole soul society for fools, but he had taken over the hollow world WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING HE HAD DONE IT. Yeah, that's just a bad ass.

I like Ichigo, and I know Aizen will eventually lose, but not before Ichigo takes on a bit of the persona of Aizen. Vizard? Yeah, that's huge too, BIGGER than Ichigo achieving ban-kai in 3 damn days. Ichigo unlocking his Hollow potential, is going to open up a whole new level of hurt people are gonna receive.

Not to mention, he's gonna bring a an assload of pure destruction in tow, in the rest of the Vizard. Who, guess what, are undetected by Aizen, and are committed to stopping him. Go watch the episodes after smiley boy showed up and you'll catch a fragment of convo that indicates this.

So, Pretty much Aizen kicks ass, and the amount of ass he can kick is just pretty much guestimate right now, but I'd say it's somewhere between Squad 1 captain, and God.

Oh, and I encourage discussion, don't take my over the top post to mean that I can't debate with the best of you, not to mention I seem to have a better grasp on some of the concepts than some other people I've talked to....(I spent a half hour explaining in the DB irc channel why a vice captain could destroy the 'ultra stupidly powerful hollowish dude.' when they are Above the level of a captain)

Damn, sucks to make a long post and the thread gets vaporized...I think I found a suitable thread for firestarter's comments:

Aizen is awesome, but alot of it is superficial IMO (atleast to this point--and there's nothing wrong with that mind you)...

Aizen while cool as hell doesn't seem to have much depth behind his goal other than vanity...He want's an even playing field, but the twist is that he'd still be much stronger than the principles he's trying to incorporate...I'm sure at some point Bleach will feature some Aizen-centric episodes and flashbacks that help us understand why he really turned into what he is today, but devoid of that (because of that lack of screentime) he seems quite generic despite him still being a cool villain...I mean episode 122 showed how vane he was toying with Tousen and Grimmjow out of sheer bordem...

He talks about morality and justice, but seems to be a cartoon cutout when you think about the depth of something like that concaerning his character...Shinobu Sensui (of YYH) inwhich his character probably is most connected with oozes depth and substance that Aizen just doesn't have considering how similiar there goals are...

Now if you're talking about the "Oh $hit" factor Aizen indeed has that, and while I'm a man's man in the context of just judging character designs he is a beautiful-looking character with very elegant features making his inner-darkness all the more menecing...With that said though I'd fear Shinobu a bit more than Aizen because unlike Aizen Shinobu is pure-evil with a heart of purity and devine justice...From Aizen's actions I don't see him as pure-evil or even close to Tousen's belief in his sense of justice...I honestly see him as selfish and singularily motivated and in the end he'll fall because of it...But damn how do you even begin to fight his special hypnotic abilities?? That alone may trump all that I have said...

saravis

2007-05-01, 19:34

Sorry if this has been brought up already, but wasn't it confirmed in the conversation between Unahona and Aizen what the hypnotic procedure was? They were talking about his shikai release, saying that they thought it was a water based SS, only to realize that that was the Hypnosis Ceremony. It sounds like to me that the Ceremony is something major and not something you could miss. It sounds like to me that it has something to do with water. If that's the case then Ichigo could have never been hypnotised because he had never seen the ceremony.

Lendial

2007-05-01, 20:47

the part about being drawn prettifuly is very true, hes almost as pretty as ulqi emo prince. after revealing his plot he nukes his glasses and does a super man hairdo thing instantly, wheres the 20 gallons of magical kidou based hair gel ?

NoSanninWa

2007-05-02, 02:58

saravis

2007-05-02, 08:37

The ceremony in question was merely an excuse for him to demonstrate his release to a large number of people at the same time. He can release his shikai an hypnotise anyone, without needing any ceremony.

When was that stated or is that speculation?

Agallion

2007-05-02, 14:51

It is possible that aizen used his shika to give the illusion of a bankai, or a different bankai than what he really has.

Elegant Destruction

2007-05-02, 14:55

nevermind, finally got what was Agallion was saying, my bad ^_<

NoSanninWa

2007-05-02, 21:45

When was that stated or is that speculation?
Aizen explained that to Unohana. He was quite clear though of course it is always possible that he was lying.

saravis

2007-05-02, 22:21

I looked back and checked out that conversation and he specifically says that the condition for hypnosis is for the enemy to see the release. If the enemy cannot or does not witness the release they cannot be put under hypnosis, hence why Tousen cannot be hypnotised. Another problem I have with the whole Ichigo was merely under hypnosis is this. Hypnosis is a reactive defense not a preemptive one. In other words it requires for the hypnotised to be able to react to the hypnosis for it to work. Ex: If Aizen hypnotizes someone into thinking that he is twenty feet away, when in truth he is only two, that person needs to be able to react to thinking that he is twenty feet away. If he does not react to the illusion than it cannot work. When Ichigo swung his sword at Aizen how do you think that the illusion of the blocking with the finger could work? Do you think that Ichi would have stopped when he saw the finger in his path? How then did it go on further with Aizen taking a hold of the blade to prevent any sort of evasion? Obviously something had to be there to stop the path of the sword, but what?

Chavenz

2007-05-05, 01:22

the thing is, Aizen has reached the limit of his shinigami power in all four forms of shinigami combat. for someone who is that capable of doing so should mean that he's very strong yes? it should be no easy feat for him to stop Ichigo's attack with one finger.

The Small One

2007-05-05, 03:21

the thing is, Aizen has reached the limit of his shinigami power in all four forms of shinigami combat. for someone who is that capable of doing so should mean that he's very strong yes?

No. Having reached all limits doesn't necessarily mean, that he is especially strong. It could also mean, that his limits are exceptionally low.

NoSanninWa

2007-05-05, 03:49

It could mean that, but that wouldn't be very shounen, would it?

The Small One

2007-05-05, 05:09

It could mean that, but that wouldn't be very shounen, would it?

This depends on the question, if there is another power behind Aizen pulling the strings. :)

However, most likely Aizen isn't going to fight anyone in his current state anyways. He will probably get a power-up, before he has to confront anyone.

Chavenz

2007-05-05, 22:07

it's just that Aizen was considered to be the main antagonist, so i was expecting him to be very strong. if he wasn't able to stop Ichigo's attack with one finger, how do you expect him to lead an army of Arrancars?

Seska

2007-05-06, 07:49

My guess is, Aizen's bankai is a strong Mind control. Even when the enemy is blind, the Mind will be attacked or fooled. My bet.

Makashi_Menace

2007-05-06, 15:41

In other words it requires for the hypnotised to be able to react to the hypnosis for it to work. Ex: If Aizen hypnotizes someone into thinking that he is twenty feet away, when in truth he is only two, that person needs to be able to react to thinking that he is twenty feet away. If he does not react to the illusion than it cannot work. When Ichigo swung his sword at Aizen how do you think that the illusion of the blocking with the finger could work? Do you think that Ichi would have stopped when he saw the finger in his path? How then did it go on further with Aizen taking a hold of the blade to prevent any sort of evasion? Obviously something had to be there to stop the path of the sword, but what?

Aizen already mentioned that his Shikai tricks all the 5 senses of his victim... And "Touch" is one of these 5 senses...

...Which means that Ichigo could've been tricked into feeling that his sword had been stopped by something very strong, when there is actually nothing stopping his sword in the 1st place.

This is just my speculation....

Elegant Destruction

2007-05-06, 15:58

Aizen already mentioned that his Shikai tricks all the 5 senses of his victim... And "Touch" is one of these 5 senses...

...Which means that Ichigo could've been tricked into feeling that his sword had been stopped by something very strong, when there is actually nothing stopping his sword in the 1st place.

This is just my speculation....

that is a good theory ^^ and i would agree if it wasn't for the fact that aizen's powers appears more illusionary than that. from what i can tell of things, his powers extend more of making people seem in one place when they were really somewhere else.

So i would hazard a guess and say he really did stop ichigo's sword with his finger.

but like you, i am j ust speculating, the fact of the matter is that we have yet to see the extent of aizen's powers.

Seska

2007-05-06, 16:57

Perhaps, his body is a Illusion, too? Did someone take that in mind? :)

saravis

2007-05-07, 14:13

Aizen already mentioned that his Shikai tricks all the 5 senses of his victim... And "Touch" is one of these 5 senses...

...Which means that Ichigo could've been tricked into feeling that his sword had been stopped by something very strong, when there is actually nothing stopping his sword in the 1st place.

This is just my speculation....
That is very possible, but my question to that is: Does strength of something, and especially in this case: spiritual strength, count for touch. In other words can he give off the illusion of something being stronger than it is? He can hypnotise Ichi into thinking that he feels the finger is there, but can he hypnotise Ichi into thinking that the finger is stronger than Ichi would expect. Also does an illusion have enough sway to stop the path of a sword?

Perhaps, his body is a Illusion, too? Did someone take that in mind? :)
That couldn't be the case because when he unreleased his shikai his body remained the same.

Sabaku Kyu

2007-05-07, 15:29

That is very possible, but my question to that is: Does strength of something, and especially in this case: spiritual strength, count for touch. In other words can he give off the illusion of something being stronger than it is? He can hypnotise Ichi into thinking that he feels the finger is there, but can he hypnotise Ichi into thinking that the finger is stronger than Ichi would expect. Also does an illusion have enough sway to stop the path of a sword?

The sword doesn't have to be actually be stopped. Like you said, the sense of touch also includes the ability to perceive degrees of stress and pressure. So supposedly, Aizen could make Ichigo think he's encountered a force strong enough to stop his bankai and that's how Ichigo and everyone else under Aizen's spell would perceive it even though in reality, Ichigo could have struck at air and his swing wasn't stopped at all. It would appear this way to the reader too, since in the story the reader is usually given a perspective of someone who is under the effect of Aizen's shikai (like how we see Aizen's murdered body even though it was just an illusion).

But it just so happens in this case I don't think it was an illusion, since Ichigo was never exposed to Aizen's shikai in anyway that we know of.

Really, Aizen's shikai is so powerful that he should be able to defeat just about anyone without need of any other power, but he obviously felt that power alone wasn't enough to face a handful of captain level enemies. So I think that Aizen's illusions do have limits to what they can accomplish, they just haven't been defined yet.

astrallionheart

2007-05-07, 15:50

Isolating Byakuya certainly had a nice effect--Aizen wouldn't have to face an AOE attack should he have to fight the other captains (the same could be said of Yamamoto, but Yama seems more like the tough love type--beat up your kids, not interested in punishing enemies himself).

Zu Ra

2007-05-07, 22:02

The sword did get stopped by Aizen with his finger. Ichigo did not have the resolve in his Zanpakuto. He was injured from the battle with Bya and already the victory celebrations had started by the Aizen came along. Also in Ichi’s head the main nemesis was Bya once he drew/defeated Bya his mission was over, his resolve was over. The explanation well same as why Ichi couldn’t cut Zaraki initially.

The illusion of Aizen’s Zanpakuto can be easily broken. Illusion is created in the medium air, well with massive amounts of reatsu air ripples / fluctuates. But there are only a few who posses that reatsu plus Aizen does have a Bankai also his fake Shikai is water element based.

timmybadshoes

2007-05-07, 22:43

Aizen never released in front of Ichigo, so how could he be under his hypnosis. I think Aizen with strength alone was able to stop Ichigo's sword....seeing how at the time Ichigo wasn't so amazingly strong anyway, especially in an injured state.

wingdarkness

2007-05-08, 00:07

The sword did get stopped by Aizen with his finger. .
I think Aizen with strength alone was able to stop Ichigo's sword...

You sure about that? I watched that scene several times and I got the sense when he flicked his finger downward he was swinging his sword to cut Ichigo in half (an illusion)...I got no better explanation than the rest, but I chaulk it up to bada$$ery by Aizen...A limited release power or secondary illusionary technique...I've never been sold on the fact he actually stopped it with his finger...

Renji was at the ceremony wasn't he? Because I thought he was pulling illusions on him aswell during the brief squabble on the hill...As for Ichigo's injured state when he swung the sword, one thing Bleach has taught me is that Ichi gets stronger whenever his loli is in trouble...

Makashi_Menace

2007-05-08, 00:58

Hmmm all I can say after everything, is that while everyone has mentioned different theories (and they all make sense in their own ways), the anime/manga instinct in me tells me that Aizen is indeed strong enough to stop Ichigo's blade with one finger.

Doesn't make sense that Aizen is a weakling who only relies on illusions over his opponents. That would be against the rule of the shounen anime/manga character development! :D

Zu Ra

2007-05-08, 01:14

Yep he blocks the Zanpakuto and cuts him He didn’t use illusion on Ichi before striking Ichi he held Ichi’s Zanpakuto between his fingers Aizen’s very next dialogue holding the Zanpakuto is “Oya I tried to cut him in half at the waist …. So it was shallow “. Aizen then proceeds to use shyunpo to beat Renji

If there was any illusion why bother holding the Zanpakuto before going for the cut. He didn’t need to use illusions to take down beaten and bettered Ichi and Renji

wingdarkness

2007-05-08, 01:41

@ Boshi - If he's using illusions Ichi wouldn't necessarily ever see the sword...How do you explain the clinging sound when Aizen flicks his finger downward? If that's not an illusion what is it? We never actually see a sword penetrate Ichi just the slash IIRC...Aizen blocks the sword with his finger extended...Then in a downward motion flicks his finger--at this precise time Ichigo gets slashed...Perhaps I'm totally wrong, but after seeing that scene umpteen times I always concluded his finger was his sword during that exchange...

Doesn't make sense that Aizen is a weakling who only relies on illusions over his opponents. That would be against the rule of the shounen anime/manga character development!

Someone who uses illusions f*cking with his opponents minds as he toys with their lives, I find that to be genius not weakness...Why break a sweat when you can mind-frag everyone? Ask Hitsagawa...I mean for God's sake his special ability is illusions...What's so metrosexual about using your special power?

Zu Ra

2007-05-08, 02:00

The sound is due to the block, Zangetsu metal against Aizen reatsu tempered finger , Aizen hardened / tempered his finger to block Zangetsu . It was a way by the manga ka to illustrate the level of difference. Also the frame (http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8850/mangarainbleachch17415ea8.jpg) in the manga clearly shows Aizen using his Zanpakuto to slash Ichi . See the blood on Aizen's zanapkuto , he clearly won fair and square not relying on illusion .

wingdarkness

2007-05-08, 02:35

Damn the logistics in the animated scene is totally different...There's no frame showing his finger going down? If not that yeah that manga image totally pwns...In the anime Ichigo is sliced on his left side, but in the manga Aizen' sword is going AWAY from his left side instead of toward which it seemed in the anime to me...I'd like to see the 2 or 3 frames before that one, but if they don't emphasize the finger than the anime played me, because what in the world could be the point of specifically showing his finger going downward as the slash takes place instead of just showing what you posted?

Seska

2007-05-09, 01:19

Ok, my next try:

Aizen is stronger then Kenpatchi.
In the beginning Ichigo could not cut Kenpatchi's skin..... You forgotten?
Aizen must have a huge greater Spirit power then Kenpatchi to stop Icigos sword only with his finger.

Perhaps Aizen surpass the strength level or reached the possible for a Shinigami Captain's level. perhaps he is even stronger then the General level.

Aizen is indeed strong. But he is a lazy ass, with his illusion skill. He have a easy time until now.

and so must Ichigo gain more and more stronger to surpass Aizen's spirit power to hurt him.

(before speculation, you should look into the past for similar scenes to compare)

Thewanderer

2007-05-09, 01:46

Aizen don't NEED to be strong at this point, even following shonen laws. When he's hybridized he'll instantly be 100x stronger.

I think Ichigo couldn't cut him because Ichigo was weakened. Actually I think Aizen was the SECOND strongest Capt in SS.

NoSanninWa

2007-05-09, 01:51

Ichigo was weakened when he fought Aizen so it was hardly fair.

Aizen don't NEED to be strong at this point, even following shonen laws. When he's hybridized he'll instantly be 100x stronger.
Actually, my own experience with shounen leads me to think it possible that Ichigo will fight Aizen before Aizen is hybridized and Ichigo will lose, but escape with his life. Then Aizen will hybridize. ;)

How's that's for being f***ed?

wingdarkness

2007-05-09, 02:17

Firstly, nothing has been said that makes the anime-scene prove he stopped it with brute force period IMO...Secondly Aizen strikes me as the type to never flaunt brute strength over tactical ease (The anime supports this)...Thirdly Kenpachi's ridiculous demon energy still may be stronger than Aizen, just like Ichigo's raw energy is probably the most powerful, but brute force alone can't beat Aizen with all his techniques and special abilities (Lest we forget he's a shinigami mad scientist like Urahara)... Fourthly, Kenpachi's skin never made a clinging sound (Like a sword) the way Aizen's finger made one when he stopped Ichigo's sword then slashed him simultaneously with his finger flicking down (Which IMO looked to be an illusion--even if his sword is shown bloody doesn't mean Ichigo ever saw the sword)...Fifthly, since many manga-readers in this thread are even torn between explanations of what happened that suggests to me that Aizen has yet to even show anything in the manga to suggest just his spiritual or overall brute strength is without a doubt stronger than Ichigo or Kenpachi's...Sixthly, with that I'm still waiting for those 2 manga frames I asked for earlier...

Thewanderer

2007-05-09, 02:18

Ichigo was weakened when he fought Aizen so it was hardly fair.Exactly:heh:

Seska

2007-05-09, 02:43

oh, there were a clinging sound in this scene? Sorry, i could not remember it. Gomene.

Seska

2007-05-14, 06:03

Sorry, for my newbie question.

But, is there any change that Captain Aizen has reached the 3rd level of Bankai? This is my best and easiest solution, why he is so powerfull. Or do you think Rin (his old vize-captain pal) back him up with his reiatsu power?

Scep

2007-05-14, 06:12

well both dont exist in bleach, basically. Seriously though, its abit hard to spectulate about Aizen when the anime viewers havent even seen

when aizen makes grimmjaw kneel with his reiatsu. that scene totally shows that his reiatsu is not only hugely superior compared to kenpachi, it also shows that he would have no problem stopping a weaked ichigo with just a finger.

Sabaku Kyu

2007-05-14, 06:47

Fifthly, since many manga-readers in this thread are even torn between explanations of what happened that suggests to me that Aizen has yet to even show anything in the manga to suggest just his spiritual or overall brute strength is without a doubt stronger than Ichigo or Kenpachi's....

There is the example of him making Grimmjow kneel with the force of his reiatsu that sceptileex mentioned. However, this could still be argued to be due to Aizen's illusions (though I don't think that's the case).

One thing that does prove Aizen's reiatsu level without a doubt though, is the fact he is able to temporarily fuse his power with the Hyogoku and use it in the creation of arrancar (hasn't been shown in the anime yet). This requires one to have the at least double the reiatsu of a typical SS captain.

That means that Aizen is indeed a reiatsu powerhouse but how he compares to Kenpachi and Ichigo as far as raw power is impossible to tell. Could be more or less, but he seems to be better at controlling his power than either one of them. Especially Ichigo, who's reiastsu is noted by Ulqiuorra to be constantly in flux between nothing special and off the chart levels. Concentrating enough reiatsu into his fingertips to stop a bankai attack would likely be an easy matter for someone with as much reiatsu and control as Aizen. Especially given Ichigo's condition at the time.

Edit: Oh yeah, In the manga, Aizen isn't the only enemy Ichigo has found it difficult to cut using bankai.

Ryuuchi

2007-05-14, 07:48

I'm shure that when Ichigo and Aizen figth he will get alot of help ether from zengetsu or his Hallow self, maybe they will help break the illusions

Scep

2007-05-14, 08:23

Sabaku Kyu

2007-05-14, 09:22

seriously speaking, its not very possible for his reiatsu to be an illusion. His illusion makes people see something. You cant make someone see reiatsu. Of course, its possible that in reality what he did was push grimmjaw down with his hands, but seriously, what for? And besides, he never unsheathed his sword. I dont think he could have used shikai in that instance.

Illusion was the wrong term to use here. Aizen's power is hypnosis and it effects all five senses. In other words, Aizen can make anyone see, hear, touch, smell or feel anything he desires. The ability to sense/feel reiatsu can said to be tied with the body's sense of touch, so Aizen could maybe make someone feel as if they are being weighted down with a large amount of reiatsu even though he's not exerting any spiritual pressure.

Also, in the case with Grimmjow, we did not see him reveal his shikai but that doesn't mean Grimm couldn't already be under Aizen's hypnosis. Anyone who's seen Aizen's shikai even once is under Aizen's suggestion for a time that doesn't seem to have any limit. Aizen could've revealed his shikai to Grimmjow (and probably the rest of the Espada) at some point like he did the SS captains and vice-captains, to further ensure his control over them.

That's why I said him paralyzing Grimmjow is not absolute proof of his reiatsu, but can be considered as evidence

Well basically, aizen's hypnosis makes it very convenient to label everything as just a illusion, no matter what he does. :/ Guess thats the sad truth.

Unfortunately, it is for right now.

Cats

2007-05-14, 09:30

But, is there any change that Captain Aizen has reached the 3rd level of Bankai?

3rd?!.. * can't stop laughing
This reminds me of a anime.. uhh.. lets see something about armored greek punks whatnot.. I downloaded a ep (big number) just to see what it was about. The episode would kick of with super macho guy going like: "Ok guys, to survive death we must release our 1268723478 sense.".. was so like WTF xD

Same with your post.. what exactly *was* level 2.. =)

Thewanderer

2007-05-14, 10:59

Bankai=final release

...right? If that's the case, it's impossible to have a "3rd release".

Chavenz

2007-05-14, 11:04

maybe Aizen has a Hollow mask too? :twitch:

Cats

2007-05-14, 12:21

That still wouldn't count as Bankai realease..
Hallow powers are of a diffrent kind and can be released withought releasing bankai.
In fact have any of the Vizards actually gone to Bankai.. hmm..
Ichii-chan sure is pathethic.. to say the least. =/

Sabaku Kyu

2007-05-14, 12:39

3rd?!.. * can't stop laughing
This reminds me of a anime.. uhh.. lets see something about armored greek punks whatnot.. I downloaded a ep (big number) just to see what it was about. The episode would kick of with super macho guy going like: "Ok guys, to survive death we must release our 1268723478 sense.".. was so like WTF xD

Same with your post.. what exactly *was* level 2.. =)

I guess since Byakuya's bankai has two forms, a lot of people think most bankai have multiple stages.

Seska

2007-05-14, 15:41

I guess since Byakuya's bankai has two forms, a lot of people think most bankai have multiple stages.

*Nod his head twice*

Zu Ra

2007-05-14, 16:09

Regarding vizards , controlling the hollow is harder . If indeed they can control their inner hollow Bankai will be a piece of cake and why ? . Ask your self this beating your zanpakuto into submission is harder or beating down your inner hollow .

Bya has 3 forms/ stages in his Bankai

- Senbonzakura Kageyoshi

- Senkei

- Shūkei

Cats

2007-05-14, 16:36

At Seska
Those aren't forms they are attacks..
And yes I know he calls it "..true form".

Zu Ra

2007-05-14, 18:22

Nope they are three forms/stages/attacks whatever you call it and why . His zanpkuto changes shape with each form/stage/attack . Ichi/Renji’s Bankai has only one shape . All three stages have different shape and functionality

- Kageyoshi : Attack/Defense

- Senkei : Attack no Defense

- Shūkei : it condenses all senbon into one Blade called Hakuteiken and grows wings

Rukia has 3 dances in her shikai but the shape of her zanapkuto never changes in any of the dances

The Small One

2007-05-14, 22:59

It isn't really hard to change Shape for Baykuya's sword. After all it contains of a lot of small pieces and obviously he can arrange them like he wishes to.
He even could even build a Sandcastle with them and call it an attack. :D

Zu Ra

2007-05-14, 23:46

Senbon Zakura dissolves into tiny blades not pieces Where did you get this info ? . From the comparison to sand castle, your knowledge on Shūkei is non existent let me go through trouble of enlightening you : )

Shūkei condenses every tiny blade created during Senbonzakura Kageyoshi into a single sword Hakuteiken

The Small One

2007-05-15, 03:52

And? It doesn't matter if you call it "tiny blades" or "tiny pieces".
The term "blade" is nothing more than a description of the shape, however with things this small the shape doesn't really matter anymore.

And about the second thing: So what? I wrote that he can arange those pieces (or if you prefer it: "those blades") in every way he likes. So it's not surprising, that he can also arrange them to form a sword out of it. Though I don't realle see what's the advantage of having a single sword, execpt of showing off.

Cats

2007-05-15, 05:26

Blades is the *uhm* more romantic naming for it.
Since they are all part of his sword, its only natural to call them pieces as well. Is not wrong is it.

That being said my point with calling them attacks is that, his power doesn't increse, but merely the way he uses it changes.. Ban Kai is nothing more then a huge powa buff, to consider something, now how was it put.. a seccond stage.. then the reatsu should increse, something that, if substantial, should have been made pretty obvious.. but it was NOT~

Scep

2007-05-15, 07:27

One thing: it is possible to have senkei swords in kageyoshi. Byakuya did so when he fought renji, using senkei swords to immobilize renji.

Zu Ra

2007-05-16, 02:53

Cats you are misunderstanding something these stages/ forms/ attacks of Bya's Bankai dont equate to increase in reatsu or power . Their functionality varies

Llama89

2007-06-14, 16:18

Aizen stopped Ichigo's sword with his finger. Seriously, if Ichigo's bankai can be stopped by Grimmjow than it can be done by Aizen. Don't see how this even turned into a debate. Aizen is strong, the hypnosis just makes him that much more cooler and dangerous. Aizen's strength is probably up there with Yamamoto's. He is the main villain after all. He's supposed to be strong. And I don't see why people take the anime as fact. It's just the interpretation of the manga. When Hitsugaya attacked Aizen, Hitsugaya didn't attack an illusion. He attacked thin air. He got owned fair and square. And the sword noise is only in the anime. There was no noise in the manga since there can't be any. I doubt Ichigo was under hypnosis. The manga is law, not the anime. That's why I hate when the anime changes things from the manga. It just gets the anime viewers confused.

ipernorris

2007-06-17, 14:58

As Llama said Ichigo got owned by Aizen fair and square: even because anyone, to be affected by Aizen hypnosis, need to assist to the release of his shikai. Ichigo didn't assist to anything of that, so he wasn't hypnotized, it's obvious.
The sound we hear in the anime when Aizen stops Ichigo's sword with a finger is probably the sound of the sword's metal that echoes because it clashed against an ubreakable obstacle. It's like the sounds of two swords clashing against each other: Ichigo's bankai gives him a huge speed boost, so the clash is even more violent.

sayde

2007-07-15, 00:40

Bare with me because I'm sure this is going to sound a lot like a versus debate more than anything. (And it probably is to some degree.) But I'm currently having a debate on another forum and am I'm dying to get some more opinions on the matter.

Just how strong was Aizen before he left for Hueco Mundo to join the arrancar? Because I've always been under the firm belief that the moment he pulled off his soul slayer demonstration in front of all the vice-captains and captains, that he officially become the most powerful shinigami in soul society. It's just that no one knew it at the time.

So with that said, here comes my next question. After Aizen's demonstration, was he then powerful enough to take down even Yamamoto? And if he could, then why didn't he? It seems like Aizens complete hypnosis can allow him to make quick work of just about every captain and vice-captain in soul society minus Tousen. So why didn't he just kill off all the captains and vice-captains before he left?

I feel like I'm missing something? Because this ability of his seems a bit *too* powerful. There must be some limitations to it that I'm not aware of. Keep in mind, I don't read the manga, so if there's something of importance stated only in the manga, feel free to enlighten me.

razor886

2007-07-15, 02:45

Hmmm to beat Ichigo (hu beat 2 other captains) like nutin has 2 be dam strong!!!

The new Vaizard Ichigo still has a very hard time just 2 fight with 4th Espada (I dunno if u wanna koe hu it is) so wat about the other 3 Espada before him... Now Imagine Aizen's power hu is above the Espada...

EvolutionXI

2007-07-15, 03:04

His hypnosis might be pretty strong/useful, but we don't know how much he can control. It may or may not be as strong the genjutsu in Naruto (assuming you've seen it). The only thing we've seen him do with it is make it seem like there are people when there aren't (the chamber room members, his fake dead body, and the illusion against Komura).

He probably didn't kill off the other captains because it'd make his moving around in soul society more difficult. It could be that he also wanted to leave them so that he could have his arrancar army kill them later on.

His hypnosis might be really strong, but there are others that are really strong too, like Yumichika and Inoue's. Tousen's bankai is pretty damn good too if he doesn't toy around with them and goes right for the kill on the first hit (ie: cut off their head or something).

Scep

2007-07-15, 03:06

Well that depends on what you consider "powerful". Some people say that he is strong only because of his shikai, so if you consider that as part of his battle strength, then he probably is the most powerful shinigami in soul society. Of course, there are too many unexplained variables that need to be taken into consideration, like the scope of his shikai, and the strength of other shinigami like yamamoto. Basically, it's not possible to form a solid conclusion at this stage.

razor886

2007-07-15, 03:11

Ok... So if ppl thing that shikai already makes him the strongest shinigami in ss then dun forget bankai lol :D

XxHaixX

2007-07-15, 07:07

Though his shikai is strong... Dun 4get about his kidou! he did use destructive arts 90... although he failed and the power was less than a third of its original, look what it did to Komamura...

razor886

2007-07-15, 11:37

Actually his reiatsu is enough 2 scare ppl... Maybe even paralyze vice-captain class (n who koes maybe even captain class) :D

sayde

2007-07-15, 17:55

The only thing we've seen him do with it is make it seem like there are people when there aren't (the chamber room members, his fake dead body, and the illusion against Komura).

Well, we know a little more than that thanks to Aizens full explanation of his Shikai's ability when he confronted Unohana. He basically said that his complete hypnosis affects all 5 senses and once caught in it, there is no escape. He also gave examples of what kind of illusions he could produce such as making a field of flowers look like swamp. So it's not just being able to create illusions of people apparently. If it can affect all 5 senses, then he can basically trap any opponent into a very convincing illusionary world. It seems much more dangerous than Tousens Bankai.

Anyways, it's quite possible that he could've very well been stronger than Yamamoto at that point, but it's impossible to form a solid conclusion since we don't know the full extent of either shinigami's power. Is that the general consensus around here? *sighs*

oh well. so be it. Please, if someone has some more opinions on the matter, I'd love to read them. Because as of now, I'm very confused as to why he didn't do things a bit differently if his Shikai is so powerful. I mean for his illusionary dead carcass to appear and trick all those shinigami and for it to last long enough for someone as skilled as Unohana to do a thorough autopsy means that he can trick a group opponents rather easilly. I mean with an ability like that, he could've very well taken out each captain and vice captain one-by-one while creating an illusion that tricked everyone into thinking everything was perfectly fine in the process.

razor886

2007-07-16, 03:14

Well if you have every captain chasing after u then it wouldn't be perfectly fine :heh:

Jaden

2007-07-16, 03:25

It's because he's a generic stupid villain that doesn't kill off the good guys when he has the chance.

Sageblink

2007-07-16, 03:41

Got a question about Aizen powers...

Since Hollow who take off their mask are Arrancars...
And as Aizen is basically a Shinigami...

What is Aizen ? A vizard ?
(According that Vizard is not only the name of a group but also a type of...)

Scep

2007-07-16, 04:50

Thewanderer

2007-07-16, 06:44

Hmmm... okay, Aizen can control 5 senses to anyone exposed to his release. But does a 6th sense exist in the Bleachverse? If so, that's an obvious loophole to beat Aizen.

And IMO, Yamamoto > non-hybrid Aizen

I don't really get what you're saying but.... Aizen is a perfectly normal shinigami. There has been no evidence to show that he has used the hougyouku on himself. And vaizard as far as i know refers only to group of shinigami who gained hollow masks.Fixed for ya Sceppy;)

Sageblink

2007-07-16, 06:58

I don't really get what you're saying but.... Aizen is a perfectly normal shinigami. There has been no evidence to show that he has used the hougyouku on himself. And vaizard as far as i know refers only to group of shinigami who took off their masks.

Well, I thought it was imply that he'll use it on him.
But taht's true. Nothing about it has been say or show. :heh:

mist2123

2007-07-16, 07:23

he wont use the hougyouko if its not on perfect condition cuz if he did he wont be a perfect hollow/shinigami (like ichigo)

razor886

2007-07-19, 10:11

Is there a way to defeat such an opponent? The only way to resist to Aizen's absolute hypnosis is to be blind... so if one wants to defeat Aizen does he need to become blind?!?

Ok you said 5 senses... Sight is only one of the senses... Don't forget the other 4 :D

Scep

2007-07-20, 06:32

The only use in being blind is that you could never see the release. Once you've seen the release though, i assume he could make you hear, touch etc. everything he wants.

sayde

2009-05-19, 11:36

Sorry for bumping this old thread. I had a minor revelation and couldn't keep it to myself. Finding Aizen's precise whereabouts under complete hypnosis should theoretically be possible using Reiraku (Spirit Threads). Through the use of Reiraku, one *should* be able to

1.) fight with eyes closed in order to avoid getting caught in complete hypnosis in the first place or...

2.) Locate his precise whereabouts once trapped under complete hypnosis.

Now the only question that remains is whether KT will exploit this or not. Like many of us, I wouldn't be surprised if KT himself forgot all about Reiraku since it hasn't been used in ages. It'd be pretty ironic for this elementary skill to be the key to standing against the all-powerful bad guy of the series IMO.

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-19, 12:42

sayde

2009-05-19, 13:44

how the heck would aizen get close to him when he has some sort of time field around him?

Maybe he wouldn't have to. I mean it's not a stretch to imagine him distracting Barrangan via complete hypnosis and then spamming 90+ lvl kidou spells from long range. And since he's capable of casting both high level offensive and defensive spells, I wouldn't be surprised if he had some kind of bakudou spell he could use to shield himself from Barrangan's breath should he get close enough for it to matter.

And that's just a scenario based solely on what we've already seen him do. I didn't even mention Bankai yet or the potential results of using hollowfication on himself..:p

Kafriel

2009-05-19, 14:11

I think that nothing can beat Aizen's complete hypnosis, precisely because it is complete-meaning it affects reiatsu sensing as well, leading to an inability to sense others or maybe even use your own skills (like, thinking you're going bankai when you actually aren't), but since Aizen hasn't had many fights yet I'll leave it at that.

Wolcik

2009-05-19, 14:38

All hollows and arrancars fear Aizen, and that's because he's too powered up. No matter what Vasto Lode will do Aizen will always be stronger because he's the main villain. He's already too deeply build into his smuggy evil mastermind theme that there is bearly noone that can upstage him by coming from Hell or Heaven taking the spot with somehow better "I planned it all" and more ridiculosly strong ability - like making you lose while winining or something.

Bleach is about tricks not strenght.

Gin

2009-05-19, 14:45

its kind of weird but i personally think that barragan would be able to beat aizen...i mean even if he has seen the hypnosis all he would have to do is just do the death breath everywhere; besides, how the heck would aizen get close to him when he has some sort of time field around him? i think regarding the top espada, aizen had to pretty much persuade them to join

he could just kill him before he releases or create an illusion and make barragan think aizen had cut of his head. barragan would believe he died and his body would actually die. aizen can make you feel pain with just his shikai, and who knows what his bankai can do? I personally think that Aizen's bankai will make his illusions a reality (thats the only thing with more hax then his shikai)

Wolcik

2009-05-19, 17:22

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-19, 17:27

he could just kill him before he releases or create an illusion and make barragan think aizen had cut of his head. barragan would believe he died and his body would actually die. aizen can make you feel pain with just his shikai, and who knows what his bankai can do? I personally think that Aizen's bankai will make his illusions a reality (thats the only thing with more hax then his shikai)

thats true but how would aizen get close to him him the first place? he has the time field around him and even the speed of soi fon was slowed down to naught. I didn't know aizen could make you feel pain with his shikai (not being sarcastic either...i really didn't). Yea im pretty sure his bankai is something special, and your idea of his bankai i think is most likely true since that is the uberness...maybe he can take you into his 'illusion world' of sorts where he controls the rules/laws...thats one way you can negate barragan's abilities...might be the only way. Very interesting...

Wolcik

2009-05-19, 17:46

thats true but how would aizen get close to him him the first place? he has the time field around him and even the speed of soi fon was slowed down to naught. I didn't know aizen could make you feel pain with his shikai (not being sarcastic either...i really didn't). Yea im pretty sure his bankai is something special, and your idea of his bankai i think is most likely true since that is the uberness...maybe he can take you into his 'illusion world' of sorts where he controls the rules/laws...thats one way you can negate barragan's abilities...might be the only way. Very interesting...

Ulq said all Espada fear Aizen because he is too strong. What if he could overpower Barrgan just by his reiastu. When he ws VC 100 years ago he was better in kidou than the captain of special kidou team, so he can shot lots and lots of stuff like that. He is overpowered to the point when I wonder if SuperHollow Ichigo could even scratch him

sayde

2009-05-19, 17:53

When he ws VC 100 years ago he was better in kidou than the captain of special kidou team, so he can shot lots and lots of stuff like that. He is overpowered to the point when I wonder if SuperHollow Ichigo could even scratch him

^^this. Like I stated in my previous post, I see no reason why Aizen can't just spam high lvl kidou spells from long range to take that guy out.

Gin

2009-05-19, 18:06

thats true but how would aizen get close to him him the first place? he has the time field around him and even the speed of soi fon was slowed down to naught. I didn't know aizen could make you feel pain with his shikai (not being sarcastic either...i really didn't). Yea im pretty sure his bankai is something special, and your idea of his bankai i think is most likely true since that is the uberness...maybe he can take you into his 'illusion world' of sorts where he controls the rules/laws...thats one way you can negate barragan's abilities...might be the only way. Very interesting...

well he can manipulate all 5 senses and pain is a part of the sense of feel so idk:heh:

Kafriel

2009-05-20, 01:30

Ulq said all Espada fear Aizen because he is too strong. What if he could overpower Barrgan just by his reiastu. When he ws VC 100 years ago he was better in kidou than the captain of special kidou team, so he can shot lots and lots of stuff like that. He is overpowered to the point when I wonder if SuperHollow Ichigo could even scratch him

Actually Ulq said that Espada admire Aizen because he has no fear (although his reiatsu is strong enough to bring GJ to his knees), he wasn't exactly better than Tessai, he just used an unfair skill (being #81 and stopping up to #88, which is exactly what Tessai used). I doubt Aizen knows forbidden techniques for time/space manipulation etc., although he implies to have "hit the wall" of a shinigami's growth.

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-20, 04:51

Actually Ulq said that Espada admire Aizen because he has no fear (although his reiatsu is strong enough to bring GJ to his knees), he wasn't exactly better than Tessai, he just used an unfair skill (being #81 and stopping up to #88, which is exactly what Tessai used). I doubt Aizen knows forbidden techniques for time/space manipulation etc., although he implies to have "hit the wall" of a shinigami's growth.

yea i don't think he's as good with kidou as tessai. neither do i think he's as fast as yourichi, neither as lunatic as zaraki, nor having a good defense as (i dunno...komamura?), nor as awesome as kon...maybe just a bit powered version of Gin, who is a pretty well round guy. If he's 'hit the wall' then i have no idea where that puts yamamoto...maybe over the wall or right though it

Gin

2009-05-20, 05:30

yea i don't think he's as good with kidou as tessai. neither do i think he's as fast as yourichi, neither as lunatic as zaraki, nor having a good defense as (i dunno...komamura?), nor as awesome as kon...maybe just a bit powered version of Gin, who is a pretty well round guy. If he's 'hit the wall' then i have no idea where that puts yamamoto...maybe over the wall or right though it

Aizen and Yamamoto have the same stat score

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-20, 07:11

Aizen and Yamamoto have the same stat score

yea but the stat score things ranks zaraki as the lowest with score of 390, but thats definitely not true with his power. Aizen is powerful of course, but so far i don't think his power is too broken. unohana or anyone perceptive it seems can find whats real and whats not. his bankai is another story though.

Gin

2009-05-20, 15:14

yea but the stat score things ranks zaraki as the lowest with score of 390, but thats definitely not true with his power. Aizen is powerful of course, but so far i don't think his power is too broken. unohana or anyone perceptive it seems can find whats real and whats not. his bankai is another story though.

well the stats take kidou skills and intelligence into account. and you can't say that zaraki has much of either and Aizen's power is beyond broken, unohana could only sense that something was wrong, but couldn't figure out what it was, nobody can see through aizen's illusions (except for shinji in TBTP) and Aizen says that people will stay under his hypnosis for ever.

Wolcik

2009-05-20, 15:56

Bleach is more into tricks, so it doesn't mather if someone can does 500dmg or 650dmg, as long as they have something like "my Ice pokemon beats your water pokemon" or "I make you see what I want" that person can win... or at least that's what it's been it all about except for Zaraki vs Tousen.

Gin

2009-05-20, 16:07

Wolcik

2009-05-20, 16:14

pokemon reference gets auto-cookies from me
thanks,
however not everybody saw pokemon, even in japan. Kishimoto didn't and makes lighting deafet earth somehow.
I wonder what's with fire vs ice. In pokemon fire wins, but in Bleach it's "probably" the way that Helibeli said - if the water is strong enough then it won't be used by an ice user - too bad we didn't see that becoming true as nobody got hurt in that fight yet.

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-20, 23:06

Gin

2009-05-20, 23:14

ok i've arrived at the conclusion that controlling water could mean that she can control aspects of water as well...like superheated water+ice could make a steam explosion...basically blowing up hitsuguya which im completely comfortable with

also ice is water, halibel might be able to melt hitsugaya's ice or simply take control of it, just like hitsugaya can control all the water around him and freeze it

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-20, 23:17

also ice is water, halibel might be able to melt hitsugaya's ice or simply take control of it, just like hitsugaya can control all the water around him and freeze it

true true...im just hoping something good happens, and hopefully it will

Gin

2009-05-20, 23:22

true true...im just hoping something good happens, and hopefully it will

well we are getting to see a lot of cool moves, i just wish they weren't all from one character

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-21, 00:41

well we are getting to see a lot of cool moves, i just wish they weren't all from one character

lol true again. for every cero halibel fires captain kid gets 5 ubermoves

Kafriel

2009-05-21, 14:23

well the stats take kidou skills and intelligence into account. and you can't say that zaraki has much of either and Aizen's power is beyond broken, unohana could only sense that something was wrong, but couldn't figure out what it was, nobody can see through aizen's illusions (except for shinji in TBTP) and Aizen says that people will stay under his hypnosis for ever.

Old quote, but since I just had this idea, gotta toss it around! I think Zaraki has a good knowledge of kidou (forced to learn at shinigami high-school after he wanted to be captain?) but doesn't use it because he thinks it's lame. He's pretty smart when fighting though, and could definitely defeat most captains...not because he's stronger, but because of his ability to analyze his enemy's powers and come up with a plan to beat them.
ok i've arrived at the conclusion that controlling water could mean that she can control aspects of water as well...like superheated water+ice could make a steam explosion...basically blowing up hitsuguya which im completely comfortable with
sounds like a plan...unfortunately the bad guys always end up on the receiving end :(

Ganshou-dono

2009-05-21, 15:13

Old quote, but since I just had this idea, gotta toss it around! I think Zaraki has a good knowledge of kidou (forced to learn at shinigami high-school after he wanted to be captain?) but doesn't use it because he thinks it's lame. He's pretty smart when fighting though, and could definitely defeat most captains...not because he's stronger, but because of his ability to analyze his enemy's powers and come up with a plan to beat them.

I don't think he knows a single kidou...I don't think he went to shinigami academy...if I remember corretly anyone who beats captain can be one...this is only way how can you skip exams...but noone can beat captain just like that without proper training...zaraki was the only one...and I bet he chalanged last kenpachi cuz he thought he was the strongest one there...well you know zaraki right? :D
and I agree about kenpachi coming with plans and not just raw power...after all that's why he has that patch and bells...he don't want to win just like that but after some struggle...at least that's how I see it

sounds like a plan...unfortunately the bad guys always end up on the receiving end :(

too shame...

and to the topic for a change :D I think that if anyone hit the wall it was aizen and yamammoto...I think that both are captain commander level...and I don't think that "commander" word is there just for heck of it :D
but I don't exacly say that either of them hit the damn wall...but if any shinigami did it would be them...or zero division (but that is too much of a theory cuz whe don't know anything about it...and I got feeling that Kubo doesn't know yet eiter :D)

Gin

2009-05-21, 15:45

ShinAkuma135

2009-05-21, 18:59

what if unohana turns out to be aizen's wife or something and takes his side...oh man that would be a twist.

Wolcik

2009-05-21, 19:05

yeah i've actually considered that zaraki has kidou abilities but I had to discard them since he can't even obtain shikai. and i don't really see how zaraki 'analyzes' his opponents, he just swings harder until his enemy dies:heh:

In battle against Nnoirt it was really about swinging his sword harder, but first he had to notice that Noirt was like Zaraki for Ichigo for the first time they faced. He couldn't cut him.

When fighting Tousen he was dodging his attacks and studing the situation. He fiqured out what Tousen's Bankai was about then he came up with very interesting plan. Capture Tousen's sword and cut him in half - easy but effective. The easiest way doesn't have to be the bad way, or rather is badass way XD

If Aizan and Urahara didn't hit the wall then why they would bother with their experiments? Not to make weaklings power up, but rather for the blocked way to disapear.

Aizen-Sousuke

2009-08-19, 23:35

Gin

2009-08-19, 23:42

no u wouldnt have to be blind and closing ur eyes wouldnt work because the release stage effects all five senses meaning he could manipulate u through other senses like smell taste or something else in order to get u completly hypnotized

No, you have to see the release, then he can manipulate your senses. Thats why its called perfect hypnosis.

sayde

2009-08-20, 00:02

If Aizan and Urahara didn't hit the wall then why they would bother with their experiments? Not to make weaklings power up, but rather for the blocked way to disapear.

Aizen may have done it in preparation for the day he does hit the wall and he finds out his own natural limits just aren't enough to accomplish his goals. (He doesn't necessarily have to have reached his limits already. :p)
He also definitely did it "to make weaklings power up". Because despite how powerful he may become by going Vizard and surpassing his limits, he knows he'll most likely still need the help of others to succeed. So he pursued the research with the intention of building his own army of super hollows.

Urahara's a scientist. So I'm not really sure he even needs a logical explanation to start experimenting with hollowfication. While he might've done it just to surpass his own limits, it's equally possible that he could've done it out of mere curiosity (or even just for the lulz *j/k*).