View Full Version : Ichigo's Hollow form Compared to Aizen's Superb powers.( who is stronger?)
Whitemoon648
2005-12-22, 04:56
Ok We saw that Basically Ichigo got owned by Aizen in his damaged shape. Aizen just stoped his blade with his fingers. Ichigo in his normal form basically probably would still lose to Aizen but what if we were compare Aizen and Ichigo's Hollow form. Ichigo's Hollow form also stoped Bakuyas Sword with one hand. Both side have their own powers which i will list as accurately as i can for comparing them. If u think u can add more to each side please do. and also if i have somethign wrong please be sure to post it.
Aizen:
1) super Shikai ( ultimate hypnosism)
2) Master of destructive art
3) one of the strongest captains in terms of spiritual powers
Ichigo's Hollow form:
1) His Own Unique bankai
2) Tremendous amount of power.
3) Super fast.( he basically easily outspeeded Bakuya)
4) being able to regenerate his health back. ( ichigo couldnt move even a muscle, then he transform to the Hollow form and while being under that form for a short time he has regain some of his stamina back).
5) probably being able to defeat Bakuya less than 2 minute. ( without Ichigo's interference that is :heh: ).
6) he might be able to resist Aizen's Hypnosism since he is a Hollow and a shinagemi. ( my own specualations).
So both of them are really strong , but the overal i think Ichigo's Hollow form could deafeat Aizen in a battle.
astrallionheart
2005-12-22, 05:11
Unfortunately, I think a LOT of people could beat Aizen if they could resist his Hypnotism. I wonder if its something simple (like Kenshin, D&D) where these kinds of spells are just a battle of will-power, or if its something far greater (say magic with no saving throw sort of thing).
If that were true...then send in Kenpachi with a bankai for the win : )
the five oh first
2005-12-22, 05:13
Yeah I really think that if kenpachi gets his bankai that he would win of aizen. but I still think that at the moment aizen is stronger then the inner hollow of ichigo.
One thing I will bring up,the reason why Aizen could block it seemingly with his finger is mainly becuase he can move freely while his Illusian is up. So, this is becuase the sword fools all senses so it is very easy for him to reposition himself so that he could block the blow with his sword; while the illusion raises his finger in place of the sword.. The perfect illusion, which he then dispels before using a destructive art on the fox captain (can't remember his name :/). This is shown by the disappearing image of him and his sudden appearance infront of the captain. Another note is that he did not use said destructive art at full power, due to he did not fully master it.
So basically, Ishigo's hollow form would win if it took full control. Becuase, most of Aizen's dimistrations of power were at Ichigo's spirit level, but were cercumstancial due to his under handedness.
astrallionheart
2005-12-22, 05:36
Because...his hollow form is invulnerable to mind control?..
Plus Rukia couldn't control her body at all from Aizen's unconscious reiatsu. If you remember on the bridge Rukia could still get up even after Byakuya blasted them with reiatsu. Aizen's unconscious reiatsu is powerful enough to block Komamura's bankai barehanded...think about that. Even if his demon arts and his absolute hypnosis was removed, his reiatsu is on a level above that of the current captains. He is to the Shinigami captains as Kenpachi Zaraki was to Ichigo before he reached shikai--couldn't even scratch him. Their honed, killing intent reiatsu is being stopped barehanded by Aizen's unconscious reiatsu. Bleach does this on several occasions, by showing us something that seems insignificant at the time only to be used as a reference point for later use.
For example, Komamura and Tousen's relationship was deep and their argument at the end was the culmination of that. They didn't need to repeat that when Ukitake spoke with Aizen at the end. The prior example gives us a glimpse that those two similarly were close peers at one point.
Ichimaru
2005-12-22, 06:11
Yeah I really think that if kenpachi gets his bankai that he would win of aizen. but I still think that at the moment aizen is stronger then the inner hollow of ichigo.
Kenpachi would just let himself be stuck in aizens hypnosis and allow aizen to hack the shit out him, since kenpachi enjoys pain n torture.
ichigo fans
2005-12-22, 07:52
when aizen release his shikai.. dont look at him..
and u wont get hypno... haha
D-Technolife
2005-12-22, 09:06
I wonder what kenpachi's bankai would look like!!!!! ... hmmmmmm..... or just his shikai!!!! hmmmmmm........... and i wonder....... would surpass aizen!!!!....... iguess we'll soon find out!!!
Kenpachi would just let himself be stuck in aizens hypnosis and allow aizen to hack the shit out him, since kenpachi enjoys pain n torture.
Actually, Kenpachi enjoys fighting more than anything else. Not the getting hurt, although he accepts it as a price.
when aizen release his shikai.. dont look at him..
and u wont get hypno... haha
Yes. You just need to look the other was all the time when fighting him... that way, you end up guaranteeing you have no idea where he is. Just where he isn't.
What would be funny is if he was faced with a mirror. Shame that the self hypnosis trick only works in cartoons. Oh wait...
I sure would like to see Aizen kill off Ichigo, Kenpachi, Yoruichi and everybody else in a brutal, bloody but cool kinda way. Why dont powerfull bad guys never finish their jobs in the right way? I mean, slicing Hitsugaya is nice and fun, but whatever happen to chopping off his head to be sure hes dead?
Sigh, bad guys never win, so i guess Ichigo will eventually beat Aizen.
JOJOS'STAR
2005-12-22, 11:16
I sure would like to see Aizen kill off Ichigo, Kenpachi, Yoruichi and everybody else in a brutal, bloody but cool kinda way. Why dont powerfull bad guys never finish their jobs in the right way? I mean, slicing Hitsugaya is nice and fun, but whatever happen to chopping off his head to be sure hes dead?
Sigh, bad guys never win, so i guess Ichigo will eventually beat Aizen.
Yeah thats cause normal people likes Ichigo and hate Aizen. :rolleyes: But
I see your point.. I would also like to see an anime once where the bad guys wins at the end. Oh well I guess its against human nature to end a story with such a dose of sorrow. ^-^
Anyway no point is blattering about Aizen vs Ichigo, whe havent even seen the full extend of Aizen's power yet. And just how easely he beaten Hitsugaya..
ScytheBlade
2005-12-22, 16:41
Gin's Hollow pwns all large (if he has one). :D
the reason why Aizen could block it seemingly with his finger is mainly becuase he can move freely while his Illusian is up.
Are you referring the block he made to Ichigo or to Captain Fox?
And I agree with some of you here, I think A lot of captain can beat Aizen if not for because of his Shikai, then again, Aizen right now is the number one bad guy, so he must be stronger than Ichigo, maybe as strong as Hollow Ichcigo.
HoshiHikari
2005-12-22, 18:37
:uhoh: Ummm I think as of now the Hollow ichigo might be stronger but knowing Aizen he might get the same kind of transformation which might make him stronger.....if that made any sense (@_@)
Unfortunately, I think a LOT of people could beat Aizen if they could resist his Hypnotism.
Well yeah, kinda obvious huh :D
Same as saying alot of people can beat Hitsugaya if they can resist ice, or that anyone can beat Tousen if they can resist his stasis.
Besides there's more to Aizen then just Hypnotism, i think hes damn strong on his own. Havent seen past episode 60 yet, but did Aizen hold off Ichigo's blade with the help of his Hypnotism or not? Or have Ichigo never saw his blade release and cant be under hypnotism?
Whitemoon648
2005-12-23, 03:53
I personally think Hollow Ichigo will be Immune to Aizne Shikai. my theory is that since there is two people inside ichigo, one hollow and other reuglar, Aizen will only be able to effect Ichigo's body, so the Hollow doesnt get affected. Any ways i think that form is Immune to Aizen's Shikai.
Are you referring the block he made to Ichigo or to Captain Fox?
He blocked both attacks using his perfect illusion from what I could tell. Also another note, Aizen has used the element of surprise in all of his battles. There has yet to be an instance when he was up against another shinigame, that he did not use his perfect illusion to his advantage.
Unfortunately, I think a LOT of people could beat Aizen if they could resist his Hypnotism. I wonder if its something simple (like Kenshin, D&D) where these kinds of spells are just a battle of will-power, or if its something far greater (say magic with no saving throw sort of thing).
If that were true...then send in Kenpachi with a bankai for the win : )
No offense, but isn't it common sense? any1 can probably beat aizen without his hypno. That's like saying to Byakuya "fight without your zanpakutou" or in other words, fight with your bare hands..
Back on topic.. I think hollow-ichi can beat Aizen w/o much trouble at his current state. But this is from a presupposition that hollow-ichi is one step closer to being the final form to what hougyoku can do... and the combination of both ichi and hollow-ichi will be the final form.. but im just guessing :) And here's an interesting bit.. something mentioned in the manga that may or may not contribute to ichigo's potential...
remember in the manga when grand fisher heard that ichigo was ishin's son? and then he mention something like, "so that makes ichigo a true blood".
well normally, people become a shinigami after they die and are transferred into SS, meaning they weren't shinigamis to begin with. However in the case of ichigo, maybe he's both 100% human and 100% shinigami, since he was born in the real world, but he was born by ishin, a shinigami? am i making sense here? :D
Morisato
2005-12-23, 05:46
No that doesn't make sense, how can he be 100% of two things? If he's two things, he's 50% of each.
Hmm...interesting topic. I'm not sure bout whether Ichigo's hollow form will be able to beat Aizen but one thing's for sure. If Ichigo were to beat Aizen, he'll have to learn how to fight blindly, and of course, he musn't look at Aizen when he activated his shikai. Like that's an easy thing to do.
Hmm...Ichigo's a true blood? If those folks at Soul Society learned about this, I'm sure they'll want to recruit Ichigo:heh: . Either way, Ichigo must be able to beat Aizen's army before he can actually beat him. I kinda have a feeling Ichigo will have to master his 'hollow' side first. And there's Zangetsu....
Anyway, I'm sure Aizen's power is not only hynotism. We've yet to see him unleash his bankai.
hmmm a question with no answer.
From the fact it would seem that Ichigo/Hollow Ichigo has higher ceiling in term of fighting ability than Aizen does. But it seems to me that Ichigo has a lower floor as of this moment. To figure out the "hidden abilities" that will give Hollow Ichigo the edge is somewhat silly.
Aizen stop Ichigo's sword with 1 finger...and no Ichigo was not under Aizen Shikai's Influence. So Aizen is THAT MUCH stronger than Ichigo. And as far as Hollow Ichigo..well now that Aizen has the Hougyoku so the Hollow Aizen should be THAT MUCH stronger than the Hollow Ichigo.
But afraid not all the Ichigo fanboys. Eventually Ichigo will surpass and beat Aizen. Its probably the only obvious thing in the future of this manga.
lordblazer
2005-12-23, 07:26
I sure would like to see Aizen kill off Ichigo, Kenpachi, Yoruichi and everybody else in a brutal, bloody but cool kinda way. Why dont powerfull bad guys never finish their jobs in the right way? I mean, slicing Hitsugaya is nice and fun, but whatever happen to chopping off his head to be sure hes dead?
Sigh, bad guys never win, so i guess Ichigo will eventually beat Aizen.
He's a intellegent villian. Who knows that the Menos can kick his ass. ANyway yeah theres something along the lines with the balance of spirit world thingy. I really don't know, but his whole angle is the smart bad guy who manipulates everyone to get what he wants and once he has it he's pretty much gone for now.
hmmm a question with no answer.
From the fact it would seem that Ichigo/Hollow Ichigo has higher ceiling in term of fighting ability than Aizen does. But it seems to me that Ichigo has a lower floor as of this moment. To figure out the "hidden abilities" that will give Hollow Ichigo the edge is somewhat silly.
Aizen stop Ichigo's sword with 1 finger...and no Ichigo was not under Aizen Shikai's Influence. So Aizen is THAT MUCH stronger than Ichigo. And as far as Hollow Ichigo..well now that Aizen has the Hougyoku so the Hollow Aizen should be THAT MUCH stronger than the Hollow Ichigo.
But afraid not all the Ichigo fanboys. Eventually Ichigo will surpass and beat Aizen. Its probably the only obvious thing in the future of this manga.
Aizen ain't even a hollow yet.
astrallionheart
2005-12-23, 07:30
No offense, but isn't it common sense? any1 can probably beat aizen without his hypno. That's like saying to Byakuya "fight without your zanpakutou" or in other words, fight with your bare hands..
Uh, yeah, as you can see my post was the second post. That means I was answering the OP. The context was if Ichigo's Hollow form could beat Aizen without his hypnosis.To which I said, "well, lots of people might have a chance against him." Yes, it is common sense, which is why I stated it.
I'm not offended, just confused.
Aizen ain't even a hollow yet.
yes my point exactly.
So if Aizen is stronger than Ichigo, then i think its not a stretch to assume that once Aizen transform himself using the Hougyoku his new Hollow form would be stronger than Hollow Ichigo.
The one thing I don't get from all the posts however is the assumption that ichigo was under the effect of hypnosis. Episode 60 clearly state that only those who saw the release of Kyouka Suigetsu would be under complete hypnosis. In neither the manga or the anime does it show Ichigo seeing Aizen Shikai, so therefore it should be pretty obvious that Ichigo was not under Kyouka Suigetsu's influence. Yet people keep insisting that just because Aizen stop Ichigo's bankai with 1 finger that Ichigo must somehow be hypnotised.
Face the fact, Ichigo got his ass woop. He didn't die, its not the end of the world...move along.
astrallionheart
2005-12-23, 07:55
I agree midgard.
It's hard to tell exactly what's going on, but if we judge specifically on what we've been shown up to Episode 62, then it implies Aizen's hypnosis acts like sort of an after-image even after he's moved. It showed exactly how the image deteriorated in Episode 62, and how Hitsugaya was defeated makes a lot of sense now. After all, he controls the senses of target in question, so they believe his body has not moved as they don't feel the reiatsu moving. Now unless Aizen's shikai also involves hypnotizing the anime artists, there's no reason why his barehanded sword catching is an illusion.
But what's also obvious is that Aizen can catch bankai's with his bare hands. Since in none of these sword-catching situations did Aizen physically move. It doesn't matter what level of hypnosis he's using, there's no way that's going to help him physically "catch" a sword, particularly against Komamura--he didn't even have his sword drawn, so his shikai was not in effect.
And...Byakuya still has a decisive power gap over Ichigo. Rukia was right, Ichigo can't defeat nii-sama...it took the inner hollow to win the fight.
lordblazer
2005-12-23, 09:15
yes my point exactly.
So if Aizen is stronger than Ichigo, then i think its not a stretch to assume that once Aizen transform himself using the Hougyoku his new Hollow form would be stronger than Hollow Ichigo.
The one thing I don't get from all the posts however is the assumption that ichigo was under the effect of hypnosis. Episode 60 clearly state that only those who saw the release of Kyouka Suigetsu would be under complete hypnosis. In neither the manga or the anime does it show Ichigo seeing Aizen Shikai, so therefore it should be pretty obvious that Ichigo was not under Kyouka Suigetsu's influence. Yet people keep insisting that just because Aizen stop Ichigo's bankai with 1 finger that Ichigo must somehow be hypnotised.
Face the fact, Ichigo got his ass woop. He didn't die, its not the end of the world...move along.
Yes, but you jsut can't assume that Aizen is a Hollow. He ain't period. He's just a really strong shinigami who just so happen to make a pact iwth the menos due to his strength. YEah holllows are beast, basicly demons, and pretty much will bow down to anyone who is stronger than them. Do you know what a pact is? A pact is a agreement made by two parties rather it is a duel or a form of alliance that is temporary thatw ill benefit both parties.
Yeah Aizen made a pact with the Menos, because if Aizen is a hollow then you'll have to assume that the blind black dude and Gin is a hollow also, which is dumb to assume.
D-Technolife
2005-12-23, 09:48
for now !!! i think aizen is stronger!!! but Ichigo is the main character and main characters always get better and stronger!! who knows!!
He blocked both attacks using his perfect illusion from what I could tell. .
Hmmm Ichigo was not in the Hypnosys, he never got to see Aizen Shikai, not to mention wen he tried to atack Aizen was the first moment both of them actually met.
He blocked both attacks using his perfect illusion from what I could tell. Also another note, Aizen has used the element of surprise in all of his battles. There has yet to be an instance when he was up against another shinigame, that he did not use his perfect illusion to his advantage.
Wrong. Ichigo is NOT under the illusion, therefore Aizen MUST have blocked with his finger. Keep in mind Ichigo wasn't at even half of his strength, and if you remember back to the fight with kenpachi, Ichigo couldn't cut kenpachi at first because kenpachi was so powerful. Same thing here, I believe.
Ichigo's hollow won't be immune to the hypnosis... ichigo probably just will not ever get hypnotised.
Wrong. Ichigo is NOT under the illusion, therefore Aizen MUST have blocked with his finger. Keep in mind Ichigo wasn't at even half of his strength, and if you remember back to the fight with kenpachi, Ichigo couldn't cut kenpachi at first because kenpachi was so powerful. Same thing here, I believe.
Ichigo's hollow won't be immune to the hypnosis... ichigo probably just will not ever get hypnotised.
And going to this same explanation, this must be the reason why Aizen could catch Ichigo atack like that, His Riatsu was so inmense compared to Ichigo's, that the sword didn't cut Aizen, just as he could'nt cut Kempachi.
Yes, but you jsut can't assume that Aizen is a Hollow. He ain't period. He's just a really strong shinigami who just so happen to make a pact iwth the menos due to his strength. YEah holllows are beast, basicly demons, and pretty much will bow down to anyone who is stronger than them. Do you know what a pact is? A pact is a agreement made by two parties rather it is a duel or a form of alliance that is temporary thatw ill benefit both parties.
Yeah Aizen made a pact with the Menos, because if Aizen is a hollow then you'll have to assume that the blind black dude and Gin is a hollow also, which is dumb to assume.
Aizen isn't a hollow, neither is Gin or Tousen. I'm not sure if its because I read the manga that it is more clear but if you rewatch episode 61 it is said that Shinigami has limit to their power and the only way to surpass it is to become a hollow and break the barrier. This is why Aizen seeks the Hougyoku...so he could become a hollow and break that barrier. So when we meet Aizen/Gin/Tousen again (beyond S.S. Arc) they will most likely be Hollow-Shinigami and be much more powerful.
Consider that if Aizen's illusion is as powerful as it's said to be, he wouldn't even need to physically block any attacks at all. He could just make the illusion of blocking the attack, and it would fool everyone, even the person making the attack. Think of it like the matrix. It's a giant illusion, but people can die anyway because they think they're dying.
lordblazer
2005-12-23, 13:11
Aizen isn't a hollow, neither is Gin or Tousen. I'm not sure if its because I read the manga that it is more clear but if you rewatch episode 61 it is said that Shinigami has limit to their power and the only way to surpass it is to become a hollow and break the barrier. This is why Aizen seeks the Hougyoku...so he could become a hollow and break that barrier. So when we meet Aizen/Gin/Tousen again (beyond S.S. Arc) they will most likely be Hollow-Shinigami and be much more powerful.
No one is this fucking dumb dude you just changed your basis of the arguement and you are arguing with me over something I already fing know. you said
"Aizen is a hollow and he jsut looks normal because theya re under hypnosis."
Now you say "Aizen ain't a hollow b ut you don't understand the show yet because he gets the special thing y that will turn him into one."
YEah turn him into one doesn't mean he used it yet shit he jsut got the thing man. I'm going by the anime because the manga goes ahead a bit further and it the manga does go into more details, but I'm sorry I watch the anime sabd on ep 62 yes he did get the special thing that turns him into a hollow, but how does that support your original arguement over rahter or not he's a hollow presently from what I seen on episode 62?
Baring in mind that most people here only watch the anime. I think its logical to most of us that at the current moment, Ichigo doesnt really stand a chance against Aizen. Just my opinion : P
No one is this fucking dumb dude you just changed your basis of the arguement and you are arguing with me over something I already fing know. you said
"Aizen is a hollow and he jsut looks normal because theya re under hypnosis."
Now you say "Aizen ain't a hollow b ut you don't understand the show yet because he gets the special thing y that will turn him into one."
hmmm if you are going to quote me at least use what I say...
my first post -
"And as far as Hollow Ichigo..well now that Aizen has the Hougyoku so the Hollow Aizen should be THAT MUCH stronger than the Hollow Ichigo." (the key word is "should" as in future when he use Hougyoku to transform)
my second post -
"So if Aizen is stronger than Ichigo, then i think its not a stretch to assume that once Aizen transform himself using the Hougyoku his new Hollow form would be stronger than Hollow Ichigo." (the key word is "once" as in future when he use Hougyoku to transform)
I don't think I ever once say that Aizen is presently a hollow. and certainly not: "Aizen is a hollow and he jsut looks normal because theya re under hypnosis."..i'm not even 100% sure what "theya re" means.
If my you do not understand my engrish then sorry i'm japanese onry. But I suggest that if you are going to "quote" me it would be best to use my quotes.
Consider that if Aizen's illusion is as powerful as it's said to be, he wouldn't even need to physically block any attacks at all. He could just make the illusion of blocking the attack, and it would fool everyone, even the person making the attack. Think of it like the matrix. It's a giant illusion, but people can die anyway because they think they're dying.
Thats great and all, but in order for Ichigo to be in Aizen's illusion, Ichigo must see the release first. If Ichigo never saw the release then he cant be under Aizen's hypnotism, and Aizen had to physically block the attack using his strength.
ScytheBlade
2005-12-23, 16:27
When Aizen defeated Komamura in anime, did he have his sword drawn? I didn't watch this episode yet but Aizen didn't draw his sword at all in manga while defeated Komamura easily with the help from illusion.
Which means he didn't have to draw his sword before using his shikai.
If you watched Bleach episode 17 you would have saw that Byakuya severed Ichigo without even drawing his sword. Since Byakuya didn't have hynopsis we can assume he flash-stepped. Aizen must have Komamura hypnotized first and then flash-stepped to cut him. But, as we all know it, Aizen owned Komamura with a Lvl. 90 Demon Arts spell :heh: .
noir senshi
2005-12-23, 18:41
But, as we all know it, Aizen owned Komamura with a Lvl. 90 Demon Arts spell :heh: .
When I saw that bit, I wondered if the Demon Art was an illusion. Aizen could've made Komamura think he's being attacked by a Demon Art while Aizen actually just slashed him a lot.
Just a thought.
Inkognito
2005-12-23, 18:56
This is the problem with Aizen's shikai and power in general. When comparing his power to that of any other character, Aizen could -always- be putting forth an illusion to those who have previously seen his zanpakuto released. Which only raises more questions about Aizen's true power and what other abilities he may posses to augment that power.
I think it's a safe bet to assume that Aizen is -not- doing that and that he really is as powerful as he seems. As for his abilities vs. Ichigo's Hollow, Aizen wins hands down because he has the knowledge of his own abilities and limits and it would seem vastly superior ability in demon arts. For Aizen to have taken Komamura out of commision that quickly as well as caught a released bankai with a finger, it would only be logical he'd kick the crap out of Ichigo's Hollow.
i believe that no matter how much power ichigo has, he can't beat aizen.. until he finds a way to counter the hypnotism.. or has a blind person wit em
Inkognito
2005-12-23, 21:15
i believe that no matter how much power ichigo has, he can't beat aizen.. until he finds a way to counter the hypnotism.. or has a blind person wit em
In order to be hypnotized by Aizen's zanpakuto, you need to have seen it released. Ichigo has not seen it released and is immune to the effect.
Im guessing by the time Ichigo confronts Aizen, Aizen probably has his own Hollow form and Ichigo probably has gotten a lot stronger. So I guess it's a fair match...maybe not because of Aizen's cheap zanpaktou.
This is the problem with Aizen's shikai and power in general. When comparing his power to that of any other character, Aizen could -always- be putting forth an illusion to those who have previously seen his zanpakuto released. Which only raises more questions about Aizen's true power and what other abilities he may posses to augment that power.
I think it's a safe bet to assume that Aizen is -not- doing that and that he really is as powerful as he seems. As for his abilities vs. Ichigo's Hollow, Aizen wins hands down because he has the knowledge of his own abilities and limits and it would seem vastly superior ability in demon arts. For Aizen to have taken Komamura out of commision that quickly as well as caught a released bankai with a finger, it would only be logical he'd kick the crap out of Ichigo's Hollow.
All that plus he havent even used his bankai yet....
I wonder what kenpachi's bankai would look like!!!!! ... hmmmmmm..... or just his shikai!!!! hmmmmmm........... and i wonder....... would surpass aizen!!!!....... iguess we'll soon find out!!!
I don't think so. Unless he can get Dr. Phil to help him work things out, his sword is gonna stay royally pissed at him.
lana3007
2005-12-25, 19:11
Is Ichigo even under hypnosis? Aizen did say that in order to get caugh up in the spell the person had to see his sword's release. And as far as I remember Ichigo had never seen Aizen release his sword, it was already in shikai when he got there. So that would mean that Aizen beat him without hypnosis. Granted Ichigo was already beaten up, but still, he got owned very very easily.
I think it's safe to say that Ichigo's power is much smaller compared to Aizen. Now Ichigo does get a boost in his hollow state. It seems like the hollow and the normal Ichigo have seperate sources of power, because hollow Ichigo seems to have his seperate stamina that is unrelated to how beaten up Ichigo is. Ichigo was falling over dead in the fight with Byakuya and the hollow seemed to have energy to spare. but his power seems restricted because Ichigo himself won't let the hollow do as it pleases.
So in my opinion hollow Ichigo can't be on par with Aizen. Not yet at least, if Ichigo and the hollow could work together that might give him the power he needs.
Is Ichigo even under hypnosis? Aizen did say that in order to get caugh up in the spell the person had to see his sword's release. And as far as I remember Ichigo had never seen Aizen release his sword, it was already in shikai when he got there. So that would mean that Aizen beat him without hypnosis. Granted Ichigo was already beaten up, but still, he got owned very very easily
Agreed. Aizen never released his shikai in front of Ichigo so it is appropriate to say that hypnotizm is irrelevant to the fight. I doubt that Ichigo is even near Aizen's level (even his Hollow form for that matter). Shame the old posts are lost. All this pointless speculation and argument was well stated in the manga threads.
Considering Aizen's pawn (Urukiora) concluded Ichigo is a trash not worth killing and that he is not a threat to Aizen, I'm sure Ichigo has a lot of work to do.
QuicksilverPhoenix
2005-12-25, 20:31
If you watched Bleach episode 17 you would have saw that Byakuya severed Ichigo without even drawing his sword. Since Byakuya didn't have hynopsis we can assume he flash-stepped. Aizen must have Komamura hypnotized first and then flash-stepped to cut him. But, as we all know it, Aizen owned Komamura with a Lvl. 90 Demon Arts spell :heh: .
Yeah, but at that time, Ichigo coudn't see the flash steps and in second Byakuya DID draw his sword, in the chapter 52-53 Renji "explains" that is a technique.
I don't think he used an ilussion, but maybe he had them hypnotized and was showing them that he stil got his sword in its sheath. Now, he can control their five senses, but that doesn't mean he can stop the movement.
I think that Aizen is a hell lot more powerfull than Ichigo and he stopped him with his finger... I can't wait to see Hollow Aizen.
Is Ichigo even under hypnosis? Aizen did say that in order to get caugh up in the spell the person had to see his sword's release. And as far as I remember Ichigo had never seen Aizen release his sword, it was already in shikai when he got there. So that would mean that Aizen beat him without hypnosis. Granted Ichigo was already beaten up, but still, he got owned very very easily.
I don't recall any kind of information that was given in the anime or manga that proved Aizen's Zanpakutou was at Shikai at that point. He dispelled it in front of Unohana and Isane before going back to the hill.
There's also a couple of crucial points that seem to be forgotten:
- if Aizen does indeed have a Bankai, that would mean he could enter Shikai without calling out the name of his Zanpakutou. In that case, Ichigo could indeed be hypnotized during his attack on Aizen, or even before that (when he stopped Aizen from killing Renji).
- whether or not Aizen has Bankai. This was debated about in another thread. If he does, the above point does have merit. If not (and he used his 'Absolute Hypnosis' to become a Captain), then it's quite obvious there's no way he could've hypnotized Ichigo.
The two points just add more speculation to the discussion, and don't really clearly shift the argument to one side or the other. However, I never said they would, just that some points were seemingly ignored. And since we're all just speculating, I'll join in. It's my belief that Aizen is indeed that strong. He probably has an insane amount of reiatsu, maybe enough to even rival that of Yamato-jii. He probably did beat Ichigo and Komamura without the useof his Shikai...but people are going to argue otherwise. The discussion will continue on indefinitely, since there's no definitive proof either way, and most people will not be swayed. Ah Kubo...what a twisted web you spin... :p
Aizen mentioned something about Kyokasuigetsu' hypnotized are flawless(he did in manga, don't know about anime) after defeated Komamura which lead me to believed that at least he did use his Shikai against Komamura.
Okay, let me rephrase what I said. He used his Shikai against Komamura, but not at the point where many have been saying that he did. There have been numerous posts that have people saying that Aizen used his hypnosis on Komamura when Aizen stopped Komamura's Zanpakutou with his bare hands. I meant that I do not believe Aizen used Kyouka Suigetsu on Komamura here. I will, however, admit that Aizen probably did use Kyouka Suigetsu on Komamura right before he used the demon arts (where he seemingly "teleported" from next to Ichimaru to right in front of Komamura).
The only good reason why Ichigo is under hypnosis seems to be that he couldn't have gotten beaten so badly by Aizen...which don't seem to me to be a very good reason. Then somehow Aizen doesn't have Bankai...even weirder assumption.
All Captains have bankai except for Kenpachi, unless told otherwise (by the people that write the manga) that seems to be a pretty conclusive fact.
All the captain and vice captain were hypnotised during one ceremony when Aizen showed his release to everyone. It would be safe to assume that Komamura like everyone else was hypnotised back then. And it would seem that his Shikai a very long time limit, he doesn't need to draw his sword to show an illussion (the sword was not drawn against Komamura during the illusion). And we have no idea how to be un-hynotised.
At no point in the manga/anime did Aizen show Ichigo his shikai release. At no point in the manga/anime did they suggest Ichigo was under hypnosis. At no point in the manga/anime did they show Ichigo slashing at an illusion.
...so draw your own conclusion.
IMHO your assumption is wrong.
Saying someone has a specific power until we're told otherwise isn't the way you'resupposed to read a story. It has to be the other way around: We have to assume that nobody has a special power, until we're told otherwise.
but its not an assumption. Yoruichi said that in the history of S.S. Kenpachi is the only person who attain the rank of captain without reaching Bankai (Episode 42 anime). So the likelyhood of Aizen having bankai is very very high, I would think...No?
Aizen has bankai, what kind of lame villain would he be if he already show all of his tricks.
lordblazer
2005-12-26, 14:23
Im guessing by the time Ichigo confronts Aizen, Aizen probably has his own Hollow form and Ichigo probably has gotten a lot stronger. So I guess it's a fair match...maybe not because of Aizen's cheap zanpaktou.
Maybe hollow ichigo and regular ichigo will form a pact by then and merge there powers together into something that sounds gayer than power rangers
Aparantly Ichigo was not in Hypnosis, everything points out that way:
-The Shikai of Aizen in front of Ichigo was never shown.
-It was not mentioned he was.
-Ichigo was not at full strength, he was injured.
-Riatsu is very important here; Kempachi could receive Ichigo slashes and not even flinch.
I think that if Ichigo was inside the Hypnosis the author would had illustrated this, as he did with Komamura, yet he didn’t, I find this strange, and because of it create a little confusion about it.
It could be a possibility that he was, but, for it, I think the author needs to show us this to leave no doubt, after all, each time Aizen defeated someone because of the Hypnosis, he explained this to the defeated opponent.
And going to this same explanation, this must be the reason why Aizen could catch Ichigo atack like that, His Riatsu was so inmense compared to Ichigo's, that the sword didn't cut Aizen, just as he could'nt cut Kempachi.
I have just come to another conclusion so bear with me hehe.. the above post would be valid IF ichigo fought 1v1 with aizen... if aizen blocked the bankai w/ 1 finger, then okay he's god.
HOwever as you can see, in order for ichigo's attack to work, he needed Renji to "trap" aizen. And so the order of execution follows: Renji -> Ichigo. Now in any strategy whenever plausible, it is better to cut off the foundation of the attacking army rather than clashing it off head to head. I mean, why would I want to waste more than necessary right? And so in ichigo/renji case, renji was the foundation of the attack of ichigo. Therefore, disable renji, ichigo's attack can easily be seen.
And we all know that renji is under Aizen's spell.
I have just come to another conclusion so bear with me hehe.. the above post would be valid IF ichigo fought 1v1 with aizen... if aizen blocked the bankai w/ 1 finger, then okay he's god.
HOwever as you can see, in order for ichigo's attack to work, he needed Renji to "trap" aizen. And so the order of execution follows: Renji -> Ichigo. Now in any strategy whenever plausible, it is better to cut off the foundation of the attacking army rather than clashing it off head to head. I mean, why would I want to waste more than necessary right? And so in ichigo/renji case, renji was the foundation of the attack of ichigo. Therefore, disable renji, ichigo's attack can easily be seen.
And we all know that renji is under Aizen's spell.
I, dod't get 100% your theory, but one thing is that you have to take in account Ihcigo current State, Injured and all exausted.
hitokirigirl
2005-12-28, 12:29
Come on, Hollow Ichigo would be pawned by an Aizen at shikai level.
Aizen hasn't shown any amazing technique by now (only his illusion technique which seems to be just a piece of cake for him), and judging by his demon attack n.90, I guess the 89 previous ones are pretty badass...
We could see them as a kyuubi Naruto fighting against Itachi (even Itachi showed about 2/3 amazing but tiring jutsus)
My last questions are about that hollow inside Ichigo : for sure he's not just a scaring and raw powered demon, he's able to think and perhaps come up with unknown techniques...
The only chance fr Ichigo to at least at Aizen level is to tame hisblack side and learn how to use his demonic power, at his own risk...
QuicksilverPhoenix
2005-12-28, 13:04
Ichigo was stopped with a finger... That, even if he es exausted is impressive, and what wants Aizen is to become the same thing that Ichigo is, to become more powerfull, and if he is that much powerfull without being a Hybrid then, think about his power when he becomes a hybrid.
Whitemoon648
2005-12-28, 19:31
Yeah what you are saying has some facts in it, but you are just not counting in the fact that Ichigo's true powers ( even that Hollow form that was shown) arent even shown yet. We dont know if that hollow form was Ichigo's maximum power. Mayby in that form he can improve alot more too. So both might get alot stronger. And another thing, is that we dont even know that ichigo is a hybrid or not. Mayby he just can transfrom to a Hollow but we dont acctually know if he is a hybrid yet.
I, dod't get 100% your theory, but one thing is that you have to take in account Ihcigo current State, Injured and all exausted.
what im trying to say is that:
1) ichigo was not affected by aizen's illusion.
2) Renji was affected by the ilusion
which brings me to this point..
3) Ichigo however was indirectly affected by aizen's illuision because he had to RELY on Renji before ichigo could make his move.
And so..
4) Aizen is not some sort of a god( well excluding the fact that he is a death god ) as some might think he is.
Oh, and in connection to point #4, yes ichigo was injured. And the more reason as to why aizen is not some sort of a god.
Altharion
2005-12-28, 21:30
Aizen still has bankai, ichigo hollow doesnt have a chance.
lana3007
2005-12-28, 21:55
what im trying to say is that:
1) ichigo was not affected by aizen's illusion.
2) Renji was affected by the ilusion
which brings me to this point..
3) Ichigo however was indirectly affected by aizen's illuision because he had to RELY on Renji before ichigo could make his move.
And so..
4) Aizen is not some sort of a god( well excluding the fact that he is a death god ) as some might think he is.
Oh, and in connection to point #4, yes ichigo was injured. And the more reason as to why aizen is not some sort of a god.
That's a perfect explanation for what happened!
And I agree with you, Aizen is no god. He has a lot of power, but as he himself said all the powers that shinigami could obtain are capped at a certain point, which means that as powerful as Aizen might be he just physically can't be higher than a certain level.
Aizen's hypnosis gives him a very sneaky advantage, but it doesn't necesseraly make him stronger. The only reason it seems like he is so powerful is because the people we see him fight are all clearly weaker than him:
Renji is not yet on par with a captain plus he is beaten up.
Hitsugaya is young and impulsive; I am sure if he had taken the time to size up the situation instead of blindly charging at Aizen, he wouldn't have been beaten as badly.
Same goes for Komamura.
Ichigo was already a mess by that point, plus as carb said he too got decieved by the hypnosis via Renji.
Now I am sure if Aizen had fought against Yamamoto he wouldn't have been able to defeat him as easily, even if he was cheating with hypnosis.
QuicksilverPhoenix
2005-12-28, 22:09
Yeah what you are saying has some facts in it, but you are just not counting in the fact that Ichigo's true powers ( even that Hollow form that was shown) arent even shown yet. We dont know if that hollow form was Ichigo's maximum power. Mayby in that form he can improve alot more too. So both might get alot stronger. And another thing, is that we dont even know that ichigo is a hybrid or not. Mayby he just can transfrom to a Hollow but we dont acctually know if he is a hybrid yet.
Well actually, if you think about it, you will realize that he is an Hybrid, because if he isn't, how could he transform into a hollow-shinigami, I don't deny that Ichigo was exausted, but we saw the true power of Ichigo when he was fighting Byakuya, and if you notice, Byakuya is a lot more powerfull than Ichigo, is was Hollow-Ichigo the one who won the fight, not Ichigo himself. Now being almost cut in two pieces by Aizen makes sense to me if he was exausted.
I agree thats a good explination to, but maybe Aizen has reached the limit as a Shinigami, maybe Yamamoto is at the limit of a Shinigami too, and if is the limit then that makes Aizen and Yamamoto equal in strenght. I dunno if he is in the limit though. As for the Art 90, I don't think is fake, and I don't think he used Hypnosys on Renji because he didn't have to do it. Also don't think he has the powers of a god, the technique has to have a weakness or a form to beat it.
Altharion
2005-12-28, 22:27
saying aizen is cheating with hypnosis is like saying ichigo is cheating with his speed.
what im trying to say is that:
1) ichigo was not affected by aizen's illusion.
2) Renji was affected by the ilusion
which brings me to this point..
3) Ichigo however was indirectly affected by aizen's illuision because he had to RELY on Renji before ichigo could make his move.
And so..
4) Aizen is not some sort of a god( well excluding the fact that he is a death god ) as some might think he is.
Oh, and in connection to point #4, yes ichigo was injured. And the more reason as to why aizen is not some sort of a god.
But, was Renji still in the illution in this moment? as I said before, in each moment Aizen beat someone because of the illution, they showed us this, but in this moment, this is not shown, as if was really Aizen and not the illution.
My perception is that this have nothing to do with the Hypnosys, and have to do with a Combination of Aizen powers (why can't the number one villain be that strong?) and Ichigo's phisicall state.
Futhermore you see that even if Aizen is that powerful he could not continue to hold on the presure of Ichigos atack, noticible by how In the last second, Aizen hand beggined to shake.
well there are no facts to state whether renji was or was not affected at that moment, but it seems to lean more on him being affected. Take note, komamura was also under the spell at that moment, so aizen must have his hypno still turned on.
anyway, there is no point in discussing the pre-aizen as everyone now knows that he's obviously much stronger now than then. Im just posting this as to state that aizen's power is still realistic.
well there are no facts to state whether renji was or was not affected at that moment, but it seems to lean more on him being affected. Take note, komamura was also under the spell at that moment, so aizen must have his hypno still turned on.
anyway, there is no point in discussing the pre-aizen as everyone now knows that he's obviously much stronger now than then. Im just posting this as to state that aizen's power is still realistic.
Just because Komamura was under the Hypnosis does not means others were also in it, either way, Renji been in the Hypnosis or not, does not change the fact that Aizen stoped Ichigo's atack, this is independent on Renji's state (we can say the same for Soi fong and Yourochi, it was suppossed that Soi Fong was in the Hypnosis, yet, this not affected how both of then had Aizen trapped).
But, as you say his power are still resallistic, but obviusly, his power are so great he is able to hold Ihchigo head on atack for a little moment, an atack that early on, could break Byakuya's Bankai. This lead me to believe that Aizen is the next level Ichigo must reach in power, Just as when The SS arc started, the Goal of power to reach was Byakuya (remember how insanly strong Byakuya was portrayed in that moment).
ScytheBlade
2005-12-29, 16:42
Why the hell does everyone think that if you are blind you can own Aizen? Dammit, even if you weren't under his hynopsis he would kick your ass with a Lvl. 90 Death Arts Spell. Remember that the spell wasn't even 1/3 done when Komamura got owned. Ok, pretend that Komamura was under Aizen's hynopsis. But Aizen still got the skills to own him in 2 seconds. Now THAT is saying something.
mbibby88
2006-08-16, 14:11
ichigo isent a vizard..he is both hollow and shinigami and the hollow is him
the same as his soul slaying sword.....he is going to use the hollows body but keep the hollow under control
Shigemichi Take
2006-08-16, 20:33
I see your point.. I would also like to see an anime once where the bad guys wins at the end. Oh well I guess its against human nature to end a story with such a dose of sorrow. ^-^
didn't the bad guys win in FMA?
the homoculous owned edward at the end
but its very say ending to see him die
:uhoh: Ummm I think as of now the Hollow ichigo might be stronger but knowing Aizen he might get the same kind of transformation which might make him stronger.....if that made any sense (@_@)
well it was aizen who said he reached his shinigami limit and now he trying to go beyond that of a shinigami he's trying to reach ichigo if he hasnt already
IMO, Hollow Ichigo's powerful, but he's still got a long way to go. Aizen wouldn't much of a villian if Ichigo was already on his level.
Arthas1011
2007-10-21, 23:25
Ichigo would Kick his behind no matter what (hollow form or not) especially with his tensa zangetsu (meaning the zangetsu he has that looks almost like a katana)
There is no way Ichigo could win against Aizen, even if he did transform into his hybrid state. Ichigo must find out how to control his hollow and dominate against it completely. It's like having a split personality where one wants to overtake the other. As you can see Ichigo still has a hard time keeping his mask on for only seconds at most. Aizen knows plenty of of spells and techniques that are probably forbidden to Soul Society (which makes him more like Urahara). His shikai seems to affect those who can see his zanpakutou (explains why Ichimaru and Tousen aren't affected by it). Aizen's bankai might be even more powerful than we could imagine, affecting all senses, mind, body, and soul where they're in another dimension where Aizen is in complete control.
WONDERMIKE
2007-10-22, 00:28
Aizen's bankai might be even more powerful than we could imagine, affecting all senses, mind, body, and soul where they're in another dimension where Aizen is in complete control.
Sharingan Bankai? :heh:
Jarkeler
2007-10-22, 03:57
Or it could be something dumb like making Aizen's hair slick back on it's own and his glasses falling off.
Pyrokinetic
2007-10-23, 12:40
Look, aizen is not as strong as he seem to be...i think ichigo would beat aizen because as far as i know hypnosis affect all your 5 senses, ichigo is likely to get hypnotised but when he switch to his hollow form, the hollow has a mind of his own so wouldn't that break the hypnosis. if that dont work...will power will do for ichigo, i would ichimaru would be the harder person to beat. =]
Naruto_spartan
2007-10-23, 17:23
Present Ichigo could defeat past Aizen but Aizen has surelly become much stronger than before.
I think that Ichigo's only chances are either to learn to use his mask and hollow powers to the fullest or to use the orb to become an arrancar, him having a mask and all.
ichigo has no chance right now because the plot will not allow it , he will have to powerup many times and someone in bleach has to die before ichigo can 1v1 aizen where he will get owned, summon courage, win, bleach series finale.
Deathwing
2007-10-23, 19:02
we haven't seen Aizens Bankai hell we havent even seen the man extend any effort or get hurt or even cut and Aizen currently controls all the people who have been beating the living shit out of ichigo
Hollow ichigo couldn't even come close to Azien if he has trouble with his minions unless another power-up is coming Azien currently and clearly the strongest one in this manga so far
Black-Cat-Sama
2007-10-23, 19:17
Aizen all the way. WE've seen Ichigo go all out on Grimmjow and then Aizen just blinked the 6th espada away.. i kno in manga sometimes that A beats B and B beats C doesnt mean a cycle, but in this sitch i see it. besides why would Tite just spazz the story up by making a punk 15 year old (yeah ichigo looks waaay older) just learn something, make it last longer without explanation and then pwn the total boss of the whole operation...:eyebrow:meh Aizen>Ichigo.. and we have yet to know whether the sword being caught with fingers in SS was an illusion or real, but either way. kurosaki got pwned and didnt die by the fact aizen is cocky (maybe thats how Kuro will win?:heh:
Jarkeler
2007-10-23, 21:00
Still amazes me that Ichigo and all his friends are supposed to be 15 years old... Sheesh, I know anime's affinity for high school kids, but atleast make them like upper-classmen or something, so that they can atleast somewhat look their age.
Arthas1011
2007-10-25, 22:45
Ichigo's hollow form definately kicks a$$
WhiteWings
2007-10-29, 02:22
Well, Ichigo is gonna have to develop a few more tricks to be able to defeat Aizen from what I could tell so far.
cheese no koma
2007-10-29, 03:47
ichigo has no chance right now because the plot will not allow it , he will have to powerup many times and someone in bleach has to die before ichigo can 1v1 aizen where he will get owned, summon courage, win, bleach series finale.
quote for the truth
ShadowVlican
2007-11-01, 19:24
ichigo has no chance right now because the plot will not allow it , he will have to powerup many times and someone in bleach has to die before ichigo can 1v1 aizen where he will get owned, summon courage, win, bleach series finale.
QFT +2 :heh:
MC Zandogg
2007-11-01, 20:10
IMO aizen is stronger than ichigo(inner too)
-as you know it was implied that aizen mastered all fighting styles of a shinigami(it was implied when he was talking about it, he was saying how a shinigami reaches its limit blah blah blah and the only way to break the limit is to become a hollow)
-also aizen didn't block komamaru's bankai with his bare hands he just dodged it
-also aizen didn't say he didn't master kidou he simply said he only released a third of its power.
-aizen probably turned himself into a hollow anyways lol :P either that or hes going to wait until the orb thingy fully awakens then hell use it on himself
-though its possible i highly doubt aizen blocked tensa zangetsu with his bare hands....prolly an illluion
-aizens shikai is so cheap but meh i have a feelign well see ichigo dueling his black and white zangetsu
-i also think aizen can pwn ichi cuz his shikai pnws imagine his bankai O__o
WONDERMIKE
2007-11-01, 20:58
-also aizen didn't say he didn't master kidou he simply said he only released a third of its power.
for kidou: his words were "it was a failure, not even a third of its destructive power were released, its difficult to control", but i assume that he took komamura lightly and performed that spell with little effort
Winterwolf
2007-11-02, 09:36
or it could be that his zampaktou's abilities use up alot of his reiatsu?, It could suck up alot of energy-[which may be why he could want more power]
when aizen release his shikai.. dont look at him..
and u wont get hypno... haha
ahh but his shikai i dont believe has a special form so i think it is constantly in his shikai form since there is only one person i no of that suspected that his death wasnt right and that was the 4th squad captian she just didnt think it was his body but she had no evidence and all they had to do is look at it once and they were stuck in his illusion thats all.
Cherudim Arche
2007-11-11, 01:45
I think aizen is still superior, look at what he did to grimmjaw. Aizen doesn't need to use bankai really, he just needs leak power. Even if they did know about the hynotism, it would be pointless because it would render the senses useless.
Yeah I really think that if kenpachi gets his bankai that he would win of aizen. but I still think that at the moment aizen is stronger then the inner hollow of ichigo.
if Kenpachi got his bankai...the universe couldn't withstand the awesome
looking back at the info given....Aizen has at least twice the power of a normal captain, since the little glass cube thingy requires at least that much power to use it properly. Now who would be considered "normal" captain level?
Aizen > Ichigo
all the reasons have been posted
MihawkXGP
2007-11-11, 11:59
At the moment, its pretty obvious that its Aizen. He's scary powerful and we've not even seen him exert himself.
Flashdance
2007-11-11, 14:05
for kidou: his words were "it was a failure, not even a third of its destructive power were released, its difficult to control", but i assume that he took komamura lightly and performed that spell with little effort
And even though it failed, Komamura was nearly killed by the spell. Furthermore, I havent seen anyone else use a kidou technique, with such a high level. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I think Kenpachi would be a though opponent for Aizen, if he could achieve Bankai... ^^
Since Kenpachi doesnt really care about his senses (see battle against the blind guy) I dont think Hypnosis is that much of a burden to him.
Arthas1011
2007-11-14, 17:41
hollow form definately. I think that aizen felt a little pity for ichigo but the reason the hollow side is better is that it knows no mercy that I know of
Ichimaru
2007-11-15, 04:30
hollow form definately. I think that aizen felt a little pity for ichigo but the reason the hollow side is better is that it knows no mercy that I know of
the current hichigo wont be able to beat aizen in his current state, look at what he did to grimjaw by just releasing his reiatsu, he shittd bricks
Iseikuneso
2007-11-21, 14:53
i believe that no matter how much power ichigo has, he can't beat aizen.. until he finds a way to counter the hypnotism.. or has a blind person wit em
I bet Tousen's gonna be good again and help Ichigo. He's blind.
Cherudim Arche
2007-11-21, 23:56
Not really, look at how Tousen got hypnotize by aizen in the first place.
Not really, look at how Tousen got hypnotize by aizen in the first place.
Dude Tousen is blind, to get hypnotize by Aizen's zanpaktou u need to SEE it.
Cherudim Arche
2007-11-22, 00:55
Dude Tousen is blind, to get hypnotize by Aizen's zanpaktou u need to SEE it.
Aizen says it affect every other sensee. He won't be able to sense it through his eyes, but it will be have a greater affect on the other senses. It stimulate everything Tousen has, so it would result from smell, touch, and hearing.
Just because you know it doesn't mean it still won't have its affect. That apply to every captain and ichigo as well. If there is a blindspot in his hypnosis, then I haven't heard a successful solution to prevent it or to get rid of it permanently.
Tousen DID NOT GET hypnotized. You need to see aizen's release to get hypnotized. Tousen is purely following aizen on his own ideals. This was stated very clearly in the conversation between unohana and aizen.
Aizen says it affect every other sensee. He won't be able to sense it through his eyes, but it will be have a greater affect on the other senses. It stimulate everything Tousen has, so it would result from smell, touch, and hearing.
Just because you know it doesn't mean it still won't have its affect. That apply to every captain and ichigo as well. If there is a blindspot in his hypnosis, then I haven't heard a successful solution to prevent it or to get rid of it permanently.
While it's true Aizen's complete hypnosis affects all the 5 senses, it's also true that you need to see the exact moment of kyouka suigetsu's (sp?) release in order to be trapped within it's hypnosis spell. As others have already stated, Tousen's physically incapable of witnessing Aizen release his soul slayer. Therefore, he's physically incapable of being trapped w/ in complete hypnosis. Aizen himself even states that Tousens is the only captain not influenced by his spell.
Who knows? Maybe Aizen's Bankai is capable of putting everyone under complete hypnosis, blind or not. :p
BleachOD
2007-11-25, 04:10
Who says Aizen has one...With those Jedi Mind tricks...He needs no Bankai:heh:
The current Ichigo can't beat Aizen *OW THAT HURTS!* But once he is able to harness his incredible powers...Aizen's ass is out! Personally I think Gin is going to be the one who offs him, not ICHIGO.
Ulquiorra is going to betray, Aizen...I feel it coming.
So is Grimm *Flashback of Near Yaoi Moment...Cringes in horror*
And now apparently Kenpachi with eyepach on even impresses Noitora, who is a level above Grimmjow. Don't you love how Bleach goes in circles. I bet Kenpachi didn't even get a powerup, he was just "holding back" every time we've seen him so far.Is this from the manga? Cause at the moment, He hasn't been involved with any fighting since the bounto arc..
Eitherway, heres my 2 cents.
Right now, Ichigo can't take on aizen. Why? Dude can't even hold his hollow form for more than 10 seconds. That is a big problem. Now, If Ichigo was able to maintain it, he'd have the advantage. Ichigo has the potential to be stronger than all Vaizards, arrancar, and Shinigami. Aizen is up there with the Hougyoku just so he can have both powers that Ichigo NATURALLY possesses. If he learned how to use them, No one would be able to touch him.
Also, looking at how Shinji owned Grimmjow a few episodes back, I think its safe to assume that Vaizards seem to have the upperhand against arrancar.
Gaaraofthedesert93
2008-05-23, 09:26
asien would kick ichigos butt but he is afraid of Ichigos rate of development so if ichigo could problay take aizen in a while though
Gaaraofthedesert93
2008-05-23, 09:27
i agreee with BleachOD
HiroInazuma
2008-05-23, 12:00
Aizen pwned Ichigo using a finger whilst Ichigo was in hollow form, imagine what he would do with two hands so Aizen is stronger
Phenomenal
2008-05-23, 14:25
No, Aizen has not even fought a full-power Ichigo. Nor have we seen Aizen fight at full-power at all.
HiroInazuma
2008-05-23, 16:34
No, Aizen has not even fought a full-power Ichigo. Nor have we seen Aizen fight at full-power at all.
Actually Ichigo was at full power because didnt Orihime heal him after the battle? Anyway with ease Aizen beat Ichigo with a finger
Konpachi
2008-05-23, 19:00
6) he might be able to resist Aizen's Hypnosism since he is a Hollow and a shinagemi. ( my own specualations).
Sry, if this has alrdy been brought up but, Aizen still controls his Arrancar, and they are Hollows and Shinigami too.
And even though it failed, Komamura was nearly killed by the spell.
Not really, Koma was still standing and even screamed and shouted at Tousen as he was being raised up in the Negaccion.
King Lycan
2008-05-23, 22:57
if Ichigo can't make uli pull out his sword then na he can't touch aizen
Aren't you all forgetting when Aizen used his spiritual pressure to completely crush Grimmjaw? Grimm was about to pass out from the weight of Aizen's power - and he's an ESPADA. An espada that Ichigo barely beat in his hollow form.
Konpachi
2008-05-25, 06:30
Aren't you all forgetting when Aizen used his spiritual pressure to completely crush Grimmjaw? Grimm was about to pass out from the weight of Aizen's power - and he's an ESPADA. An espada that Ichigo barely beat in his hollow form.
Also note, that Aizen has hypnotize all his Arrancar meaning that might have been a trick, unless Tousen was there (cant remember) and u can get him to testify.
HiroInazuma
2008-05-25, 09:22
Also note, that Aizen has hypnotize all his Arrancar meaning that might have been a trick, unless Tousen was there (cant remember) and u can get him to testify.
Thing is since his shikai is COMPLETE HYPNOSIS if it controls the 5 senses then whatever happens in the illusion the mind will assess it as being real so if in the hypnosis Ichigo gets stabbed in the heart then Ichigo will think he got stabbed and so will his mind so his heart will shut down.
HayashiTakara
2008-05-25, 11:34
the hypnosis controls the 5 senses, but to fall under it you have to "see" it. I don't think they made it any clearer in the manga/anime...
Anyway, Aizen is definately leagues about Ichigo as of now, but the all the fights are gonna upgrade Ichigo enough to face Aizen, so in the end it'll be Ichigo... it is a shonen after all XD
Konpachi
2008-05-25, 18:54
Thing is since his shikai is COMPLETE HYPNOSIS if it controls the 5 senses then whatever happens in the illusion the mind will assess it as being real so if in the hypnosis Ichigo gets stabbed in the heart then Ichigo will think he got stabbed and so will his mind so his heart will shut down.
wads ur point? im trying to say that his hypnosis made it APPEAR as if his reiatsu is mega ultra high when maybe it wasnt. (although... he must have at least 2ce the reiatsu of a average captain... )
gunndreams
2008-05-25, 22:23
If anyone here has read the start of the current manga arc, then Lt. Aizen hid himself using Kyoka Suigetsu while his captain, Shinji, conversed with the newly appointed Capt. Uruhara. After their conversation, Shinji was able to sense exactly where Aizen was though he, too, was under hypnosis of Aizen's shikai. Aizen asked him upon being found out, "You...knew where I was?" The trick is having more spiritual power at your disposal than the power of the hypnotizer. So basically Shinji can own Aizen, but will the Substitute (Ichigo) be able to defeat the Superman (Aizen)?
Konpachi
2008-05-26, 01:33
^ We do not know what he did to conceal(sp?) himself. Im quite its was NOT Kyoka Suigetsu.
speculation speculation...
commenting on a few things...
I'd say it won't be Ichigo that defeats Aizen (wishful thinking)
Aizen has at least 2x the normal Captain's reiatsu, since he stated one needs at least that much to use the Hougekyu or whatever...I can't quite remember, think Aizen said that he doesn't have enough strength to fully awaken it still, but just enough to use it.
Perfect Illusion: all it takes is a quick peep and your screwed.
If one could resist said hypnotism, it would be a much more interesting fight, cause I really want to see what Aizen is capable of besides mental tricks.
Hollow Ichigo: pretty damn scary and could of beaten Byakuya just as fast as Ichigo if he didn't hold back (remember regular Bankai Ichigo had his sword at Byakuya's neck).
Aizen may be strong, but I doubt he could of really blocked Ichigo's Bankai w/ 1 finger, same goes for blocking Komamura's. I'd like to think of it as a demoralization tactic.
Byakuya fighting w/out his zanpaktou, he's pretty damn talented when it comes to kidou, so I wouldn't look down on him just because he can't use it.
Kenpachi wouldn't really allow himself to fall into someone's trap, though as long as he gets to fight, he doesn't really give a damn, getting cut is part of the fun of fighting to him. He really didn't like though that he was frozen in Tousen's Bankai ( he said not being able to cut sucks)...but he figured a way out of it and lolz at Kenny hating to think too much. It's a scary thought that Kenpachi may be a fighting genius, but doesn't like having to rely on using his brain so much.
HiroInazuma
2008-05-26, 06:56
wads ur point? im trying to say that his hypnosis made it APPEAR as if his reiatsu is mega ultra high when maybe it wasnt. (although... he must have at least 2ce the reiatsu of a average captain... )
My point is Ichigo just has to see an illusion of him dying to die
gunndreams
2008-05-26, 12:59
wads ur point? im trying to say that his hypnosis made it APPEAR as if his reiatsu is mega ultra high when maybe it wasnt. (although... he must have at least 2ce the reiatsu of a average captain... )
That is another thing to consider. What if Aizen's display of power is nothing more than an illusion foisted upon the victims via Kyoka Suigetsu? Then again, he was able to use the Hogyoku in a pre-awakened state due to having twice the reiatsu of a "normal" captain, though what is normal in this case is up to further debate. Normal as in Hitsugaya, or normal as in Mayuri Kurotsuchi?
This begs a different sort of question -- what if Aizen's underlings discover that his displays of power are nothing more than just illusion? If so, I can imagine Aizen squirming underneath a cornucopia of arrancar with one arm sticking out crying, "Nooooo!" as the arrancar rape him and feast on his juicy reiatsu.
Still, I thought his combative prowess impressive during the Soul Society arc, where he displayed the appearance and traits of a "shinigami-Superman" -- faster than a speeding shunpo, more powerful than two elite captains, able to stop bankai with a single finger. The cheesy 70's-style action music was playing for Ichigo, and suddenly....TWINGGGG -- bankai is stopped by Aizen's index finger.
Sabaku Kyu
2008-05-26, 13:20
This begs a different sort of question -- what if Aizen's underlings discover that his displays of power are nothing more than just illusion? If so, I can imagine Aizen squirming underneath a cornucopia of arrancar with one arm sticking out crying, "Nooooo!" as the arrancar rape him and feast on his juicy reiatsu.
It wouldn't matter. Just because you know you're being hypnotized doesn't mean you can break Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions. ;)
Though I do wonder if any of the arrancar know what the power of Aizen's shikai is.
derekp13
2008-05-26, 15:48
What is the name of Ichigo's sword when in hollow? something like black getsuga?
if it comes down to it...
Ichigo = Superman, and Superman has dealt w/ mass mind rapings in the past, I believe he simply said "no more" and well...mind tricks don't really work on him anymore :p So I wouldn't find it hard to believe if Ichigo gets out of Aizen's mind tricks.
Ganshou-dono
2008-06-01, 15:50
well hollow ichigo would kick his ass...I mean hollow ichigo not ichigo with mask...ichigo with mask is still weaker than hichigo...aizen would beat ichigo with mask...ichigo with mask couldn't even beat ulquiorra so he can just forget about fighting aizen
iamthatguy
2008-06-01, 23:21
All Ichigo with the mask did was fire a Getsuya Tenshou at Ulquiorra doesn't mean he will lose if he were to hold the mask on for longer, he did however caused minor injuries and to Ulquiorra but when he fired Getsuya Tenshou Grimmjow in his released form, it doesn't have much significant impact on him yet Ichigo still wins in the end.
HiroInazuma
2008-06-02, 11:04
All Ichigo with the mask did was fire a Getsuya Tenshou at Ulquiorra doesn't mean he will lose if he were to hold the mask on for longer, he did however caused minor injuries and to Ulquiorra but when he fired Getsuya Tenshou Grimmjow in his released form, it doesn't have much significant impact on him yet Ichigo still wins in the end.
Ulqi will pwn Ichigo due to the fact that all Ichigo did was cut Ulqi's clothes with his getsuga tenshou imagine when Ulqi brings out his sword
Kyero Fox
2008-06-02, 12:08
Ichigo still fights like a bitch, if it were the REAL Hollow Ichigo, the white psyco we all know and love, not even Aizen would stand a chance. the full hollow Ichigo wouldn't because of its Beserk Ruthlessness.. not thinking about anything just kill kill kill.
All Ichigo with the mask did was fire a Getsuya Tenshou at Ulquiorra doesn't mean he will lose if he were to hold the mask on for longer, he did however caused minor injuries and to Ulquiorra but when he fired Getsuya Tenshou Grimmjow in his released form, it doesn't have much significant impact on him yet Ichigo still wins in the end.
you seem to have forgotten he was trying to protect Nel as well, he was also beserk because of Ulq being a fag and bringing up Orihime, Ichigo could have beaten Spoon head as well.
AnimeFreak1981
2008-06-08, 04:00
For me,
Ichigo as a Vizard against Aizen: Ichigo would win because Ichigo has the power of 2 captains already one is shinigami and the other is hollow. Aizen is good but to beat him you got to have a special power not to fall under it that is where the hollow powers lie. Yamamoto could defeat Aizen but he would get in Aizen's hypnosis and die. Plus Aizen doesn't know about the other Vizards too like Shinji Hirako who Aizen made him an experiment with the other Vizards in the Turn back the pendulum chapters of the manga. Kenpachi wouldn't stand a chance once Aizen did some kido. Plus Ichigo can pull out more spiritual pressure than Aizen. When Ichigo is determined he is unstopable. That is my decision on the battle of ichigo vs Aizen
HiroInazuma
2008-06-08, 09:38
For me,
Ichigo as a Vizard against Aizen: Ichigo would win because Ichigo has the power of 2 captains already one is shinigami and the other is hollow. Aizen is good but to beat him you got to have a special power not to fall under it that is where the hollow powers lie. Yamamoto could defeat Aizen but he would get in Aizen's hypnosis and die. Plus Aizen doesn't know about the other Vizards too like Shinji Hirako who Aizen made him an experiment with the other Vizards in the Turn back the pendulum chapters of the manga. Kenpachi wouldn't stand a chance once Aizen did some kido. Plus Ichigo can pull out more spiritual pressure than Aizen. When Ichigo is determined he is unstopable. That is my decision on the battle of ichigo vs Aizen
Spoiler Tag that this is not a manga thread
Ichigo gets owned by Cuatro Espada Ulqiorra Schiffer even in his mask form, now we are talking about the guy that owned the guy that gave Ichigo a hard time (Grimm) only using REIATSU, not to mention Aizen can keep Old guy, Stark and Halibel in line who are obviously the 1, 2, 3 Espada therefore Aizen owns Ichigo.
Aizen owned captains when he was a litentaunt and didn't have his bankai, now he does
Kyero Fox
2008-06-09, 17:29
Spoiler Tag that this is not a manga thread
Ichigo gets owned by Cuatro Espada Ulqiorra Schiffer even in his mask form, now we are talking about the guy that owned the guy that gave Ichigo a hard time (Grimm) only using REIATSU, not to mention Aizen can keep Old guy, Stark and Halibel in line who are obviously the 1, 2, 3 Espada therefore Aizen owns Ichigo.
Aizen owned captains when he was a litentaunt and didn't have his bankai, now he does
The Hollows are only scared of his Powers, not power
Konpachi
2008-06-09, 22:13
My point is Ichigo just has to see an illusion of him dying to die
Just like when in the Matrix.
That is another thing to consider. What if Aizen's display of power is nothing more than an illusion foisted upon the victims via Kyoka Suigetsu? Then again, he was able to use the Hogyoku in a pre-awakened state due to having twice the reiatsu of a "normal" captain, though what is normal in this case is up to further debate. Normal as in Hitsugaya, or normal as in Mayuri Kurotsuchi?
Not exactly 'normal' but rather, average.
Average = (Max + Min) / 2
eg. (100 + 40) / 2 = 140/2 = 70.
This begs a different sort of question -- what if Aizen's underlings discover that his displays of power are nothing more than just illusion? If so, I can imagine Aizen squirming underneath a cornucopia of arrancar with one arm sticking out crying, "Nooooo!" as the arrancar rape him and feast on his juicy reiatsu.
Just like the Wizard of Oz.
Fuzzyhere
2008-07-23, 18:01
ok first all Kenpachi would die quicker than ichigo, unless he bares the strikes from aizen over and over. Ichigo beat kenpachi IN shikai only, while kenpachi went all out. Now if ichigo was to bankai and kenpachi as well it wouldnt make a difference, though now kenpachi got stonger, ichigo got stonger as well and faster. and the battle between aizen and ichigo, well even though ichigo does beat aizen in the future using his god of hollow fom, aizen would still beat is ass down with even having to go bankai. one finger was all it took for aizen to stop ichigos attack in BANKAI, ichigo in hollow is stonger but to aizen its no big deal b/c aizen was toying with ichigo and barely tried, he'll probaly have to try against ichigo hollow form, but even so aizen will beat him, and i dont think he would need to go into Bankai AT ALL! Even if it was ichigo hollow, with the tail and the full hollow body(the one against the vizards) aizen would still beat his ass without bankai. SO AIZEN WILL DEFINATLY WIN!!
Fuzzyhere
2008-07-23, 18:27
ok first all Kenpachi would die quicker than ichigo, unless he bares the strikes from aizen over and over. Ichigo beat kenpachi IN shikai only, while kenpachi went all out. Now if ichigo was to bankai and kenpachi as well it wouldnt make a difference, though now kenpachi got stonger, ichigo got stonger as well and faster. and the battle between aizen and ichigo, well even though ichigo does beat aizen in the future using his god of hollow fom, aizen would still beat is ass down with even having to go bankai. one finger was all it took for aizen to stop ichigos attack in BANKAI, ichigo in hollow is stonger but to aizen its no big deal b/c aizen was toying with ichigo and barely tried, he'll probaly have to try against ichigo hollow form, but even so aizen will beat him, and i dont think he would need to go into Bankai AT ALL! Even if it was ichigo hollow, with the tail and the full hollow body(the one against the vizards) aizen would still beat his ass without bankai. SO AIZEN WILL DEFINATLY WIN!!
my mistake i said with bankai i meant aizen without bankai
At this point, I don't think Ichigo, Hichigo, or even both of them at the same (if that were possible) could beat Aizen.
Complete Hypnosis affects all the senses. A power like that basically grants Aizen infinite openings. He can easily trick his opponents into thinking he's dead. He can make you both see and feel virtually any physical injury. He can trick you into running around in circles all day, etc, etc. And to top it off, there's no absolute confirmed method to escape it as of yet. So until a confirmed method to escape this is revealed, I consider Aizen automatically unbeatable at this time. (Believe it or not, I still think the key to defeating Aizen and complete hypnosis will lie within Orihime's ability to reject anything.)
Also, we haven't seen Aizen at his peak. We haven't even seen his Bankai, nor have we seen any additional powers he might (and probably already) has gained since residing in Hueco Mundo. The guy's a beast.
So Ichigo has a very long way to go before being able to take on Aizen. It's almost depressing just thinking about it. The gap in power Ichigo has to overcome seems even larger than it was back in the soul society arc.
Mitsuomi1971
2008-07-24, 08:51
Right now Aizen is stronger than Ichigo in any form. That will change once Ichigo gets back to training with the Vaizards...if he does...I don't read the Manga but already speculated that Nel was not what she seemed...it was obvious by the powers she displayed by absorbing a Cero and healing others with her saliva
you seem to have forgotten he was trying to protect Nel as well, he was also beserk because of Ulq being a fag and bringing up Orihime, Ichigo could have beaten Spoon head as well.
Not quite...ichigo sent his strongest attack at Ulq in his vizard form and Ulq blocked it with only his two hands...he would have gotten owned either way and Nel never came into the picture until after ichigo sees that Ulq was unharmed and tried to run away with her.
LeminLyme
2008-07-25, 17:08
Ulquiorra still dominates Ichigo hands down. I believe that there's gonna be a plot to bring about the end of the Espada's in the end, not a contest of strength+ability. Cause atm Ulquiorra, #4, stands uncontested by Ichigo, and Ichigo was down to a crappy state from Gimmjow, our lovely #6... <_<
I am definitely going to have to concur with the previous two posts. Ulquiorra is without a doubt stronger than Ichigo. Ulquiorra has yet to even draw his sword against Ichigo and Ichigo has used his strongest attack. I think Ichigo needs to start gaining significantly more power before we can even consider him beating Ulquiorra.
Magnus N
2008-07-26, 09:07
I am definitely going to have to concur with the previous two posts. Ulquiorra is without a doubt stronger than Ichigo. Ulquiorra has yet to even draw his sword against Ichigo and Ichigo has used his strongest attack. I think Ichigo needs to start gaining significantly more power before we can even consider him beating Ulquiorra.
He is stronger in the sense that he can use his powers more efficiently. Ichigo got more spirit force then Ulq, but since he is crap at using it Ulq are gonna whoop him up good :)
Konpachi
2008-07-26, 09:29
Oh, let Kubo hear the cries of his fans and follow logic. Ichigo will die, and Orihime will go insane and destroy all of existance.
Mitsuomi1971
2008-07-26, 10:25
A bit off topic but it seems an underlying foreshadowing I have noticed is that the hollow/adjuchas/gillian/whatever/arrancar residents of Hueco Mundo seem as though they may betray or fight Aizen at some point. We have already seen that they have their own society structure and several do not like Aizen already...seems logical to me...either way Ichigo has a long way to go before he can stand against the strongest espada or Aizen himself. I am enjoying the ride :D
We haven't seen much of Aizen's powers yet.
But since Aizen's shikai is so cheating, I'd say Aizen would win.
But since Ichigo's the main character, he'd overpower the illusion with his raw mental power. (I'm serious, since this is how he beats EVERYONE who was originally overly-powerly-insanely-impossibly stronger than he is).
LeminLyme
2008-07-26, 14:34
Heh. I think ulquiorra will beat aizen. Knowing aizen, once his ability is bypassed, he won't be a threat. He doesn't seem one to be that strong, and he never DOES anything more then set plots and get people to do things. And who better to defeat an illusion then the only person we've seen that has a potential bypass, Ulquiorra's magical eye features and stuff. I think this is also relative to Tousen's blindness. :P So let's stretch our imaginations a bit and say Ulquiorra's eye characteristics involve seeing the real world behind Aizen's illusions? O_O And ofcourse, for some contraversy, let's say Ulquiorra does it for Inoue, cuz you know der's something going on there. xD
Kyero Fox
2008-07-26, 15:04
Oh, let Kubo hear the cries of his fans and follow logic. Ichigo will die, and Orihime will go insane and destroy all of existance.
that would be funny XD
at his current level no! but Ichi does seem to find the resolve to get stronger when the need arises!! i guess what will probably happen is, ichigo will use bankai then his hollow powers, so the next level will be hollow powered ichigo. then use a second bankai in hollow form and release zangetsu true power like the hollows can do in hueco mundo, and have a total body armor (The FULL HOLLOFICATION). that will increase not just his speed but strength, and spiritual pressure and power. what do you think??? see episode 125...
GeostigmataShi
2008-07-30, 11:14
at his current level no! but Ichi does seem to find the resolve to get stronger when the need arises!! i guess what will probably happen is, ichigo will use bankai then his hollow powers, so the next level will be hollow powered ichigo. then use a second bankai in hollow form and release zangetsu true power like the hollows can do in hueco mundo, and have a total body armor (The FULL HOLLOFICATION). that will increase not just his speed but strength, and spiritual pressure and power. what do you think??? see episode 125...
that would be seriously suck! no one look good when they are hollow (in my oppinion)
Bennyswan
2008-07-30, 11:23
at his current level no! but Ichi does seem to find the resolve to get stronger when the need arises!! i guess what will probably happen is, ichigo will use bankai then his hollow powers, so the next level will be hollow powered ichigo. then use a second bankai in hollow form and release zangetsu true power like the hollows can do in hueco mundo, and have a total body armor (The FULL HOLLOFICATION). that will increase not just his speed but strength, and spiritual pressure and power. what do you think??? see episode 125...
Yep right now Aizen > Ichigo but we all know in the end Ichigo gets a powerup and kills everyone.
I actually don't think its going to be power. I think Ichigo is going to find a trick to tell when Aizen is using his sword. Because honestly, Aizen hasn't really shown much power but rather more intelligence. It is not about overpowering Aizen but rather out-smarting him.
HiroInazuma
2008-07-30, 18:50
I actually don't think its going to be power. I think Ichigo is going to find a trick to tell when Aizen is using his sword. Because honestly, Aizen hasn't really shown much power but rather more intelligence. It is not about overpowering Aizen but rather out-smarting him.
Ichigo outsmart Aizen?! I know Ichigo is smart but when it comes to battle he is all Hulk Smash, he doesn't anticipate attacks he just slashes his sword randomly and says Getsuga Tenshou hoping it will work
especially when he stays like 10 steps ahead of everyone.
HiroInazuma
2008-07-30, 23:30
especially when he stays like 10 steps ahead of everyone.
Didn't you hear Aizen reads the script and just acts accordingly but seriously if Ichigo makes Step 1 Aizen is already on Step 15, he already did the rest while Ichigo was still planning and Ichigo is now in Aizen's trap
I think he already hate it all planned out before Ichigo was conceived :0
Crimson_Hero
2008-07-30, 23:53
The only way Ichigo can stand against even Aizen's Shikai is if he learns to fight without his eyes. He needs the "one with nature"/"see with your ears" kind of teaching, stuff a blindfold and closing your eyes for a long time just won't help with. The only one who can give him that kind of training is the blind guy with a fetish for justice, Tousen.
Even then, he's just a finger and a Bakudo #90+ away from getting getting thrashed again.
ok one Aizen made Grimjow bow down to him with just a finger really and ichigo with his mask at uber form took for ever to kill him. Ichigo can't kill Ulq and probably would die in one hit to the #1 who also bows down to Aizen, do the math lol.
only way for ichigo to kill Aizen is to do something that would piss every one off, Find a way for 3rd release and pull out the full hollow transformation.
or somehow magically Zangetsu teaches him a new skill while in bankai that will merge with his masks power perfectly
or...Ichigo won't be the one to defeat Aizen :0
Jerseykid
2008-07-31, 02:16
hopefully everyone will ignore the filler arc when judging ichigo's potential
bloodwolfx
2009-06-08, 03:12
I think Aizen better watch out if Ichigo goes full hollow like he did in the fight against Ulq.
ShinAkuma135
2009-06-08, 10:18
aizen would be quite a bit stronger than full hollow ichigo. in his form ichigo is a berserker with no brains....aizen is a whop genius and he's got immense power. it'd be over just as quickly as it did when ichigo first tried to attack him.
Intranetusa
2009-06-08, 10:22
I think Aizen better watch out if Ichigo goes full hollow like he did in the fight against Ulq.
Ichigo's Hollow Form lost badly against Ulq, who blocked his attack with his bare hands. There is no way in hell (logically) that Ichigo can beat even Ulq, let alone Aizen.
But we all know Ichigo will somehow beat Ulq and Aizen anyways because of plotkai and kubo being a tard.
Kitsueki
2009-06-08, 10:40
Ichigo's Hollow Form lost badly against Ulq, who blocked his attack with his bare hands. There is no way in hell (logically) that Ichigo can beat even Ulq, let alone Aizen.
But we all know Ichigo will somehow beat Ulq and Aizen anyways because of plotkai and kubo being a tard.
He meant in the manga,when ichi beat ulq
Crimson Cloud
2009-06-08, 12:10
Logic aside and rules based on what we see in manga/anime, only in fan speculations and dreams would Aizen beat Ichigo. We all know that eventually, even if Aizen would become a God, Ichigo would probably find a way to become stronger because he is the main character. Don't make a mistake, I would like to be wrong and would like to see Captain Commander finishes fight with Aizen or something, because that would be logic thing (years of experience VS years of experience) but that will not happen. Main characters must prove themselves in the end against overwhelming adds =)
bloodwolfx
2009-06-08, 13:27
Ichigo's Hollow Form lost badly against Ulq, who blocked his attack with his bare hands. There is no way in hell (logically) that Ichigo can beat even Ulq, let alone Aizen.
But we all know Ichigo will somehow beat Ulq and Aizen anyways because of plotkai and kubo being a tard.
no ichigo beat ulq easy when he went to his evolved hollow form, even stopping one of ulq's most powerful attacks with his bare hand.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/bleach/en/images/thumb/2/21/06-07.jpg/190px-06-07.jpg
No that doesn't make sense, how can he be 100% of two things? If he's two things, he's 50% of each.
your forgetting that Ichigo's dad lost his shinagami powers for a time so combined with his gigai and having a child (Ichigo) with Ichigo's mom who might have been a shinigami whoalso lost her shinigami powers and was in a gigai it makes sense that if Ichigo's body was some sort of hybrid of a human body and a gigai he could be both 100% human and 100% shinigami. Although this theory is most likely impossible.
Gilgamesh00
2009-07-05, 21:16
I think this is simple:
Shinigami:a powerfull soul composed by positive energy
Hollown(menus):a powerfull soul composed by negative energy
Human: have a soul composed by negative and positive energy
If a human have a strong "reiatsu" and Shinigami hability, this "human" also will have Hollow powers due human nature
leoblack9
2009-07-06, 05:55
Please don't turn Hollow ichi into another overrated char. He's a class of his own, but not yet that powerful to beat #2 and #1. And surely I can promise you, that I'm just speaking out of my buttocks without any support or argument, that's all.
your forgetting that Ichigo's dad lost his shinagami powers for a time so combined with his gigai and having a child (Ichigo) with Ichigo's mom who might have been a shinigami whoalso lost her shinigami powers and was in a gigai it makes sense that if Ichigo's body was some sort of hybrid of a human body and a gigai he could be both 100% human and 100% shinigami. Although this theory is most likely impossible.
No if he were 100% human and 100% shinigami that would be 200% which is impossible. Also, that doesn't even factor in his hollow half
Intranetusa
2009-07-06, 10:32
No if he were 100% human and 100% shinigami that would be 200% which is impossible. Also, that doesn't even factor in his hollow half
plotkai makes the impossible, possible. :heh:
Chaos Zangetsu
2009-07-06, 11:44
No offense, but isn't it common sense? any1 can probably beat aizen without his hypno. That's like saying to Byakuya "fight without your zanpakutou" or in other words, fight with your bare hands..
Back on topic.. I think hollow-ichi can beat Aizen w/o much trouble at his current state. But this is from a presupposition that hollow-ichi is one step closer to being the final form to what hougyoku can do... and the combination of both ichi and hollow-ichi will be the final form.. but im just guessing :) And here's an interesting bit.. something mentioned in the manga that may or may not contribute to ichigo's potential...
remember in the manga when grand fisher heard that ichigo was ishin's son? and then he mention something like, "so that makes ichigo a true blood".
well normally, people become a shinigami after they die and are transferred into SS, meaning they weren't shinigamis to begin with. However in the case of ichigo, maybe he's both 100% human and 100% shinigami, since he was born in the real world, but he was born by ishin, a shinigami? am i making sense here? :D
I'm pretty sure Aizen wouldn't be so easy to defeat without hypnotism. He must have incredible speed, power, and stanmina. If he had wanted in SS he could've most likely kicked the crap out of everyone except for old man Yamamoto probaly, because we have yet to see the extent of Yamamoto's power too and even his skikai looks like it can own everyone along with his own super speed and everything shown in the recent anime episodes, easily defeating the super monster and 3 enemies that 4 vice-captains combined couldn't defeat. I think Yamamoto will be a good match for Aizen one on one.
Now here what's wrong with the spoiler:
1.. I think everyone here thinks shinigami and humans are separate beings in this anime but they are not.
Shinigami in this anime means the spirit of a being(like a fox for that one captain or a human for everyone else which is represented in the real world by that spirit's gigai or physical body) has a certain spiritual power which is defined as shinigami powers.
The word powers has ben used constantly by alot of characters including Urahara and Zangetsu. Sado, Orihime and Uryuu have different spirit powers and therefore are not shinigami. Since Ichigo "FOUND his SHINIGAMI POWERS" as explained in the manga and anime, the shinigami part was thereby said as separate from his spirit just like everyone else. The shinigami powers are also shown as the shinigami sword. You may also think that being able to use spells means shinigami are separate from humans, but that is wrong because spells are just another form of spirit powers separate from shinigami powers and the actual spirit. Powers are something a soul can equip with certain properties, like the spirit sword to make a shinigami which cannot be used in their physical bodies or Orhime's powers which she can use in her spirit form and physical form and is shown as her hairpin and the 6 beings that make it up.
2. You haven't considered Ichigo's mom
3. We don't know if Masaki(Ichigo's mother) was a shinigami or not but considering she didn't hack GF apart before he killed Ichigo means she's human unless her powers were sealed like Isshin which is possible. If she was human(GF wouldn't know she was a shinigami by looking if they were) then Ichigo wouldn't be 100% shinigami.
4. The anime already showed it so you didn't have to put it in a spoiler.
^ Usually it's the mixed race/half-breeds that get more power than the originals (see vizard), maybe because Ichigo is part human and part shinigami his cap is beyond that of a vizard or an arrancar (wonder if anyone else ever thought of this:P)
About kido, it's not a shinigami property since Rukia's sealed soul could use (albeit pathetic) kido.
As for Ichigo VS Aizen, the former would get beaten to a pulp before Orihime can scream "KUROSAKI-KUN!"
ShinAkuma135
2009-07-06, 15:12
^ Usually it's the mixed race/half-breeds that get more power than the originals (see vizard), maybe because Ichigo is part human and part shinigami his cap is beyond that of a vizard or an arrancar (wonder if anyone else ever thought of this:P)
About kido, it's not a shinigami property since Rukia's sealed soul could use (albeit pathetic) kido.
As for Ichigo VS Aizen, the former would get beaten to a pulp before Orihime can scream "KUROSAKI-KUN!"
i agree. even in true hollow form ichigo is no more than a engine of destruction with no intellect. aizen on the other hand is a whop genius. i bet ichigo could be easily confused with aizen's shikai
Kitsueki
2009-07-07, 09:24
I'm pretty sure Aizen wouldn't be so easy to defeat without hypnotism. He must have incredible speed, power, and stanmina. If he had wanted in SS he could've most likely kicked the crap out of everyone except for old man Yamamoto probaly, because we have yet to see the extent of Yamamoto's power too and even his skikai looks like it can own everyone along with his own super speed and everything shown in the recent anime episodes, easily defeating the super monster and 3 enemies that 4 vice-captains combined couldn't defeat. I think Yamamoto will be a good match for Aizen one on one.
Now here what's wrong with the spoiler:
1.. I think everyone here thinks shinigami and humans are separate beings in this anime but they are not.
Shinigami in this anime means the spirit of a being(like a fox for that one captain or a human for everyone else which is represented in the real world by that spirit's gigai or physical body) has a certain spiritual power which is defined as shinigami powers.
The word powers has ben used constantly by alot of characters including Urahara and Zangetsu. Sado, Orihime and Uryuu have different spirit powers and therefore are not shinigami. Since Ichigo "FOUND his SHINIGAMI POWERS" as explained in the manga and anime, the shinigami part was thereby said as separate from his spirit just like everyone else. The shinigami powers are also shown as the shinigami sword. You may also think that being able to use spells means shinigami are separate from humans, but that is wrong because spells are just another form of spirit powers separate from shinigami powers and the actual spirit. Powers are something a soul can equip with certain properties, like the spirit sword to make a shinigami which cannot be used in their physical bodies or Orhime's powers which she can use in her spirit form and physical form and is shown as her hairpin and the 6 beings that make it up.
2. You haven't considered Ichigo's mom
3. We don't know if Masaki(Ichigo's mother) was a shinigami or not but considering she didn't hack GF apart before he killed Ichigo means she's human unless her powers were sealed like Isshin which is possible. If she was human(GF wouldn't know she was a shinigami by looking if they were) then Ichigo wouldn't be 100% shinigami.
4. The anime already showed it so you didn't have to put it in a spoiler.
Aha, I just though of this as well.
In Bleach it starts alot of Shinigami out as Souls in SS, (Rukia, Renji, Hisagi, Hitsugaya, Hinamori)
And they are later shinigami! They certainly dont transform, they train! Thats what the academy was created for, to train Souls to bring out their power, and take the role of a shinigami. Shinigami is merely a title given to warrior souls. So being a shinigami isn't Hereditary, but what is hereditary (apparently) is that your parents can give you some of their spiritual power. HUMAN, is a race, Soul is simply... a soul, its not any race, as its the base of any living conscious thing. Hollows are souls as well, they are warped souls, that need purified. Thats how you can be a vaizard, or an arrancar, you simply have attributes of both. Arrancar are hollow dominant it seems, while vaizard are shinigami dominant. (meaning the attributes that was original are dominant)
Im sure I contradicted somewhere, so feel free to criticize me lol
^ Usually it's the mixed race/half-breeds that get more power than the originals (see vizard), maybe because Ichigo is part human and part shinigami his cap is beyond that of a vizard or an arrancar (wonder if anyone else ever thought of this:P)
About kido, it's not a shinigami property since Rukia's sealed soul could use (albeit pathetic) kido.
As for Ichigo VS Aizen, the former would get beaten to a pulp before Orihime can scream "KUROSAKI-KUN!"
water_Knight
2009-07-07, 09:59
No if he were 100% human and 100% shinigami that would be 200% which is impossible. Also, that doesn't even factor in his hollow half
100% + 100% = 200%/2 = 100% there is the 100% you whanted.
100% + 100% = 200%/2 = 100% there is the 100% you whanted.
and the hollow half is factored in where?
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk
2009-07-09, 12:58
I think Aizen is superior to Ichigo...
In respect to abilities...
I think Aizen and Tousen are the Most Dangerous Characters in Bleach
I think Aizen is superior to Ichigo...
In respect to abilities...
I think Aizen and Tousen are the Most Dangerous Characters in Bleach
How did you manage to leave Gin out of that? Not to mention the fact that Tousen got destroyed by Zaraki
im fully aware that tousen only lost to zaraki because of plot armor, i was just reminding of it because he left Gin out of his most powerful people list
im fully aware that tousen only lost to zaraki because of plot armor, i was just reminding of it because he left Gin out of his most powerful people list
*deletes post*
Sorry for the misunderstanding then.
CMHerrera
2009-07-09, 22:09
I would say Ichigo
Ichigo just keeps geting on more powerful who knows..maybe his hollow form will get stronger.
Ichigo just keeps geting on more powerful who knows..maybe his hollow form will get stronger.
fixed :heh:
otherwise ichigo will never be able to beat aizen
CMHerrera
2009-07-09, 22:27
fixed :heh:
otherwise ichigo will never be able to beat aizen
:heh: Aizen has to be pwned some day..
:heh: Aizen has to be pwned some day..
it would be awesome if kubo ended bleach with aizen winning.
that would totally redeem kubo for all of his plot holes and inconsistencies
CMHerrera
2009-07-10, 10:53
it would be awesome if kubo ended bleach with aizen winning.
that would totally redeem kubo for all of his plot holes and inconsistencies
That would be a big turn in events, I can see this happen after that, Aizen come back to hueco mundo and Ichigo founds out he won
Intranetusa
2009-07-10, 11:18
it would be awesome if kubo ended bleach with aizen winning.
that would totally redeem kubo for all of his plot holes and inconsistencies
It would be a temporary victory. Ichigo then gets a power up, cheered on by Orihime's kurosaki-kun chant, and beats Aizen in 5 minutes, all while shouting "I will protect XXXXX and I will defeat you!!!"
Kubo is beyond redemption... >_<
Chaos Zangetsu
2009-07-12, 01:47
ichigo c'ant beat aizen
Here's how I see the future of Bleach:
Hichigo (Ichigo's inner hollow) becomes able to separate from Ichigo and becomes the new badass guy. Aizen tries to attack Hichigo and gets his butt handed to him big time. Ichigo tries to fight and gets whooped too but Hichigo is merciful for some reason and lets him live. Ichigo gets more powerful over more time and confronts his previously inner hollow in the final battle with ENTIRE Shinigami and Hollow armies clashing.
NOW THAT would be AWESOME!!!
Here's how I see the future of Bleach:
Hichigo (Ichigo's inner hollow) becomes able to separate from Ichigo and becomes the new badass guy. Aizen tries to attack Hichigo and gets his butt handed to him big time. Ichigo tries to fight and gets whooped too but Hichigo is merciful for some reason and lets him live. Ichigo gets more powerful over more time and confronts his previously inner hollow in the final battle with ENTIRE Shinigami and Hollow armies clashing.
NOW THAT would be AWESOME!!!
so you want bleach to turn into Army of Darkness? :heh:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106308/plotsummary
Here's how I see the future of Bleach:
Hichigo (Ichigo's inner hollow) becomes able to separate from Ichigo and becomes the new badass guy. Aizen tries to attack Hichigo and gets his butt handed to him big time. Ichigo tries to fight and gets whooped too but Hichigo is merciful for some reason and lets him live. Ichigo gets more powerful over more time and confronts his previously inner hollow in the final battle with ENTIRE Shinigami and Hollow armies clashing.
NOW THAT would be AWESOME!!!
yop:heh::heh:
that's funny, I also picture Hichigo as the FINAL final bad guy, past Aizen. I mean, Ichigo has to rely on Hollow powers to beat Aizen (unless Kubo pulls something else out of his @$$), but then that leaves the Hichigo thread afterward anyway.
So yeah Hichigo will last til the end after Aizen gets plotkai'ed.
pchan712
2009-07-20, 16:39
The way Ichigo's hollow form is now (the bull horns and Fabio hair) prooves that he does indeedy have a lot of power, maybe even enough to take on Aizen. It's just obvious that he's got no control over it whatsoever so unless he goes through some superduper training session, he's got no chance of beating Aizen.
AND THAT'S GOOD!
'Cause now that means there will be years of Bleach to look forward to. :}
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