View Full Version : Ichigo and hIchigo... Half-hollow? What's going on?
Yo, well i see many people discuss ichigo in its "hollow" form. However i dont fully understand that. The other form of ichigo doesnt really seem a hollow to me. A half mask appears, he has the eyes of a hollow, he has been taken over, but it doesnt seem to me like the hollow form is "bad". When ichigo is in hollow form there is NO black hole in his body. But he IS posessed by another "bad" soul. And i dont know if u guys still remember, but when ichigo fought the 1st captain (dont remember his name), the captain broke his sword and if ichigo wanted zangetsu back he had to fight "himsself" or. After ichigo "won" from "himsself" the other him went back in old man zangetsu and told zangetsu to train ichigo well "cause he im going to take over his body". So whats going on here, u tell me...
KaneDragon
2005-12-25, 15:31
Well, the hollow form is a blood-thirsty maniac with the intent to kill. The mask was also growing to cover the rest of his face, perhaps take him over completely? It's a hollow form, a relic of Ichigo's last-minute ascension in the pit during his training. It's a fundamental part of him now.
Yo, well i see many people discuss ichigo in its "hollow" form. However i dont fully understand that. The other form of ichigo doesnt really seem a hollow to me. A half mask appears, he has the eyes of a hollow, he has been taken over, but it doesnt seem to me like the hollow form is "bad". When ichigo is in hollow form there is NO black hole in his body. But he IS posessed by another "bad" soul. And i dont know if u guys still remember, but when ichigo fought the 1st captain (dont remember his name), the captain broke his sword and if ichigo wanted zangetsu back he had to fight "himsself" or. After ichigo "won" from "himsself" the other him went back in old man zangetsu and told zangetsu to train ichigo well "cause he im going to take over his body". So whats going on here, u tell me...
If you want to know whats going on, I suggest you read the magna.
KaneDragon
2005-12-25, 15:38
Are these events explained more clearly when they happen, or are you referring to stuff in the manga that hasn't been shown in the anime yet? Because if it's the former, I'd like to hear what the manga has to say...
Desti-Fate
2005-12-25, 15:56
Aizen is Ichigo's father. What happened was (as Aizen explained) that in that flashback sequence, the hollow merges with Shiba (black-hair) and thus forms the monster that is the real Aizen. Aizen uses his hypnosis soul slayer to look like pretty boy and fool everyone, until the time comes. The guy that lives with Ichigo isn't his real father, but there's a lot of reincarnation and complicated symbolism that isn't really explained until later on in the manga, so I won't spoil it for you. :)
The hollow was passed down biologically and was dormant until Urahara awoke it.
Disclaimer: parts of above may be lies.
Are these events explained more clearly when they happen, or are you referring to stuff in the manga that hasn't been shown in the anime yet? Because if it's the former, I'd like to hear what the manga has to say...
Theres this little event what exactly is hollow ichigo. Its explained more clearly.
JOJOS'STAR
2005-12-25, 16:34
Theres this little event what exactly is hollow ichigo. Its explained more clearly.
Is that ment to happen soon in the anime or not?? Like what chapter approximately.
WOOT* u guys make me wanna follow the story even more!! But i c its complicated so i hope it will be a good story, not one with things that arent right. Like with when people are send to soul society, they can be killed again and die again, as if they just land in another dimension. And than people like renji who seem to be born in soul society, these things still arent quite right so im waiting for an episode which explains these things. But to stay on-topic .. Damn!! i wanna c more eps :D
Is that ment to happen soon in the anime or not?? Like what chapter approximately.
It happened in chapter 185. It's not that far off really (maybe about 10 chapters, give or take)...but according to Bleach7, there's gonna be some filler after the Soul Society arc ends, so it may take a while.
Furthermore, it doesn't explain about "Hollow-Ichigo" completely, it just adds a little bit of information (like a name to it and such).
animernq
2006-03-25, 17:35
Well, they could overestimate themselves, or underestimate Ichigo.
However, so far they look pretty weak to me, and definately not like a well-established team, which would be expected from royal guards.
They want Ichigo alive and probably unharmed (they don't look like they can heal major wounds), so they can't use their full power against him.
Also if Vaizard is the Royal Guard it would explain where they got their information about what happend in the Soul Society (I doubt anyone who is not a Captain or Lieutenant has been told the whole truth).
KaneDragon
2006-03-26, 00:32
They want Ichigo alive and probably unharmed (they don't look like they can heal major wounds), so they can't use their full power against him.
Considering the fact that getting an arm blown off didn't faze him, I don't think they really have to worry to much about that. :heh:
well, about Vizards jumping all on hollow Ichigo, it could be Hirako only for example, but it wouldn't be that cool, and Kubo wanted to have a great panel with all Vizards and their swords, u never know how long they will live before they get flashback and die :D
Even if Ichigo is related to SS's king (which may be possible), there is no way for Hollow-Ichigo to know this! He is a part of Ichigo and can only know the things, Ichigo knows himself.
not true. Remember when hollow ichigo said something to the effect of "His body will be mine someday" to Zangetsu, and then was absorbed into him? Zangetsu and hollow ichigo seem to have some kind of conspiracy going on. Also keep in mind that even though Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo, Ichigo doesn't know all of the moves that Zangetsu does.
i wouldn't say Zangetsu is in on hichigo's conspiracy. it seemed to me when he said that that it was more of a threat. and why would zangetsu hide himself away from his 'partner'?
The Small One
2006-03-28, 02:36
not true. Remember when hollow ichigo said something to the effect of "His body will be mine someday" to Zangetsu, and then was absorbed into him? Zangetsu and hollow ichigo seem to have some kind of conspiracy going on. Also keep in mind that even though Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo, Ichigo doesn't know all of the moves that Zangetsu does.
And who says, that Zangetsu knows, what he can do?
Besides, even if they have some sort of conspiracy, this is only an "internal" thing. The point is, that none of them can know something from the "outer" world, without the others knowing it too. Let's take this "Ichigo is related to the King"-issue as an example: How should Hollow-Ichigo/Zangetsu know this, when Ichigo himself doesn't know it? They all are different aspects of the same soul!
And who says, that Zangetsu knows, what he can do?
Besides, even if they have some sort of conspiracy, this is only an "internal" thing. The point is, that none of them can know something from the "outer" world, without the others knowing it too. Let's take this "Ichigo is related to the King"-issue as an example: How should Hollow-Ichigo/Zangetsu know this, when Ichigo himself doesn't know it? They all are different aspects of the same soul!
hichigo says it himself in the byakuya fight. ichigo does not know how to use zangetsu. zangetsu knows what he is capable of. ichigo is incapable of utilizing him to the fullest. who came up with gatsuga tenshou (sp)? hichigo. ichigo knew it afterwards, but not before. they have their secrets. they are parts of each other (ichigo and zangetsu), but hichigo is a foreign existence with his own personality and motivations. The chief which would seem to be acquiring a damn powerful body at the moment, regardless of lineage.
hichigo says it himself in the byakuya fight. ichigo does not know how to use zangetsu. zangetsu knows what he is capable of. ichigo is incapable of utilizing him to the fullest. who came up with gatsuga tenshou (sp)? hichigo. ichigo knew it afterwards, but not before. they have their secrets. they are parts of each other (ichigo and zangetsu), but hichigo is a foreign existence with his own personality and motivations. The chief which would seem to be acquiring a damn powerful body at the moment, regardless of lineage.
Okay, a human soul turns into a Hollow when it loses it's heart. Meaning, that a Hollow is a human soul without a heart. So, logically Hichigo cannot be a foreign existence. If Ichigo had turned into a Hollow he would be a soul without a heart, that is, he would be Hichigo. So, logically Hichigo is Ichigo. In the same way, that Zangetsu is Ichigo: Both are manifestations of Ichigo's power, the only difference is that Zangetsu represents the Shinigami side of that power and Hichigo represents the Hollow side.
Or in other words: If Ichigo doesn't exist, then both Zangetsu and Hichigo also don't exist.
Now, why doesn't Ichigo use Zangetsu to its fullest? For the same reason that all other shinigami need years to achieve shikai and bankai. It's not that they can't, it's because they don't know how to.
And let's not forget what Byakuya said: It takes 10 years to master one's bankai. Therefore it's pretty normal that Ichigo doesn't know everything about his bankai.
Okay, and why did Hichigo know about Getsuga Tenshou? Well, if Zangetsu = Ichigo's power and Hichigo = Ichigo's power then Hichigo = Zangetsu. Which means that if Zangetsu knows Getsuga Tenshou then Hichigo would also know about it.
Also, there is no conspiracy going on. Hichigo only wants to take over, because he thinks of himself as stronger and more capable than Ichigo.
ok voldy, nice points.
to ask a question though, a hollow is a human soul without a heart, correct? yet ichigo is not only a shinigami and human, but a hollow as well. how can this be? possibly a plot hole, but I think a valid question.
also, the only thing i'll say is that while it is true that zangetsu is a manifestation of ichigo's power, hichigo is something outside of ichigo's power. therefore the need to sublimate him to his will. it's not like zangetsu, where if you fail, try again next time. if ichigo fails against hichigo, ichigo won't exactly be gone, but he'll be under the thrall of the hollow, i suppose.
the only other cases i can think of are the few hollows that were accidentally unmasked, but i don't think this is the same case. hichigo has already shown his ability to talk and plan (byakuya fight), so he's obviously a whole other level of hollow. What level is he on? only time will tell, but he is definitely at least on the level of the espada (gillian IIRC).
-KarumA-
2006-03-29, 05:59
Ichigo is still half Shinigami and half Hollow on the inside
he has that zanpaktou guy inside and the hollow guy that looks alike to him
it is because of this that he doesnt get a hole and he doesnt look like a 100% hollow
right now his hollow inside has absobed the zanpaktou guy, both excist in him but the hollow part was getting stronger and eventually was able to ovrthrow zanpaktou
Ichigo is in the current manga fighting his hollow concious, but if he loses only then will he change into a full hollow, currently his body has a hole and his arm regenerated into that of a hollows
Ichigo is human/shinigami and hollow, because the shinigami powers are in his blood, inherited from his father yet hidden deep inside, they were partly awakened by Rukia
like said in the psoiler they were half awakened by Rukia (leaving out the spoiler part)
but when his sword was broken and his powers thereby gone he had to die and break the chain, you can become a shinigami aftr death and Ichigo had to dig deep inside himself to find his shinigami strenght and get it into the open so that he wouldnt become a 100 % hollow
but even by finding it you dont become a 100% shinigami, people that become Shinigami this way are bound to have a little hollow inside them witch they have to fight eventually to remain human
Hollow spirits are kinda like a cancer or a virus in that matter, the longer they stay in the stronger they get and eventually they try to take over your body
to ask a question though, a hollow is a human soul without a heart, correct? yet ichigo is not only a shinigami and human, but a hollow as well. how can this be? possibly a plot hole, but I think a valid question.
Well, I don't think that you can call Ichigo a Hollow. By definition alone he can't be one. However that doesn't mean he can't turn into one. I suppose it's all about which side of power he uses. If he only relies on Zangetsu, then he is a Shinigami. If he starts using Hichigo, then he turns into a Hollow. If he can find a way to use both Zangetsu and Hichigo at the same time, he is neither a Shinigami nor a Hollow, but a Vaizard.
also, the only thing i'll say is that while it is true that zangetsu is a manifestation of ichigo's power, hichigo is something outside of ichigo's power. therefore the need to sublimate him to his will. it's not like zangetsu, where if you fail, try again next time. if ichigo fails against hichigo, ichigo won't exactly be gone, but he'll be under the thrall of the hollow, i suppose.
A Hollow is basically an instinctive creature. I mean their motto is basically "kill or be killed" as they have no emotions, morals or values because they lack a heart. Therefore it's no wonder that Hichigo wants to overthrow Ichigo, because he thinks that only the strongest survive. That's his motivation. That doesn't mean that he can't be a part of Ichigo's power.
Actually, I think that Hichigo is basically the pure will to survive by any means possible, while Zangetsu is the will to fight and protect.
WarpObscura
2006-03-29, 10:40
Question: The current batch of arrancar, since they were created by Aizen using the hogyoku-thingy, they do not actually have a "heart" right?
A Hollow is basically an instinctive creature. I mean their motto is basically "kill or be killed" as they have no emotions, morals or values because they lack a heart. Therefore it's no wonder that Hichigo wants to overthrow Ichigo, because he thinks that only the strongest survive. That's his motivation. That doesn't mean that he can't be a part of Ichigo's power.
Actually, I think that Hichigo is basically the pure will to survive by any means possible, while Zangetsu is the will to fight and protect.
IMO, this is correct. except, i do think the hollow really is an outside power. the power boost, which is wholly unnatural, seems to coincide with 'borrowing' someone or something else's strength. I also feel though, that hollows who have reached levels like that of the espada have to have some sort of agenda. What would be the point of simply being ruled by instinct on that level of consciousness? Whatever it may be, it must exist.
Was that spoiler even a spoiler anymore? lol
karuma
not only does he have that arm, but a hollow hole, feet and the mask is nearly complete. both his eyes are gone as well.
also, i don't feel it was necessary to become a hollow 1st when gaining shinigami powers. perhaps if ichigo had better control of his spirit, he'd be able to become shinigami b4 his chain was gone. and thinking back, him coming out of that shaft was hella good foreshadowing, huh? ;)
Warp
the hougyoku didn't take their hearts, the fact they were originally hollows means they didn't have them in the first place. but correct, they do not have hearts.
The Small One
2006-03-29, 12:15
After the recent chapters, especially Hollow-Ichigo telling, that he IS Zangetsu, I think it could be like this:
A normal soul in the Bleach Universe consists of two parts: An animal-like instinct driven side with some special powers (let's call it A) and a human-like side without any special powers, but the potentiality to use kidou (B). Normally those sides are balanced like Ying and Yang.
Now after dying there are three posibilities for the soul: It can stay the way it is, become a Shinigami, or a hollow.
If the A part starts to get more powerful, the soul takes an animal like form and becomes a hollow, with the special power this side can provide, while the B part is locked up deep inside of the soul, since there is no use for it.
But if the B part can gain the upper hand, the soul stays in a human-like form and becomes a Shinigami. In this case, the A part isn't locked away, but instead forced into the form of a sword: The Zanpakutou. The special powers of the Zanpakutou are the powers of the B part, therefore the same power, the soul would have, if it became a hollow.
This could also explain, why a human becomes a Shinigami, if stabbed by a Zanpakutou: The Zanpakutou is an A part and by stabbing it into the soul, it's own A part gets pushed away, because there is a surplus inside.
Well, it's just atheory, but I think it fits very well.
NoSanninWa
2006-03-29, 17:52
That would also explain one other thing. My apologies to those who haven't read the manga, but it is undeniably a spoiler, so you should not click below:
This also explains the nature of an Arancar's bankai. If the Shingami's A part is forced into the form of a sword, then the Arancar is his own zanpaktou. So, when an Arancar invokes his bankai, he transforms his own body. This fits the evidence perfectly.
I think that this is pretty good evidence that you are on to something.
I want to recommend to all Bleach fans here to take a good read to the information picked up into the following article below.
It gives an interesting, thoroughly analysis about the complexity and mysteries surrounding Ichigo's dual nature. It's definitely worth your reading interest.
"I will stand by you even if I die", unraveling the mystery of Ichigo's enormous power. (http://www.twilightvisions.com/funstuff/bleach/ichigotrinity.htm)
NoSanninWa
2006-03-29, 18:35
"I will stand by you even if I die", unraveling the mystery of Ichigo's enormous power. (http://www.twilightvisions.com/funstuff/bleach/ichigotrinity.htm)
The old "Ichigo is Kaien reincarnated" theory. (This was linked before our forum reset, but I'm glad to see it return.) That page does do a very good job of outlining that theory poiint-by-point. I'm still uncertain if it is true, but I cannot deny that there is some strong evidence.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-03-29, 19:50
not true. Remember when hollow ichigo said something to the effect of "His body will be mine someday" to Zangetsu, and then was absorbed into him? Zangetsu and hollow ichigo seem to have some kind of conspiracy going on. Also keep in mind that even though Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo, Ichigo doesn't know all of the moves that Zangetsu does.
PLEASE DONT READ THIS IF YOU HAVENT READ THE MANGA.
OK.....the deal is that Zangetsu and ''hollow'' ichigo are one and the same. He ( hollow ichigo) was also reffereing to zangetsu and I guess the he kinda knew it too, because Hollow ichigo took over zangetsu and he is eventually going to come after ichigo. Furthermore, Zangetsu has to teach ichigo any moves that he wants to learn.....same goes with the hollow ichigo. Ichigo "learns" moves that he sees him use. Hollow Ichigo calls him on this. I kinda knew that this would happen.
Im sure that maybe somewhere along the line someone has already mentioned this, but since I didnt see it here it goes: Considering the fact that Isshin is a Captain Class Shinigami i think that the Kurosaki Family might be one of the noble families. Remember when Byakuya was explaining about the chances of some one being able to achieve Ban Kai? He even says that its impossible for a mere Ryoka to be able to summon a Ban Kai. (HINT HINT).
I think that Ichigo might be the strongest shinigami in his family, easily overpowering his father. Which is no chump hiimself. He took care if the Grand Fisher with one swing of his sword. I thnk that he may have used his Shi Kai but that's just a guess because we didnt see his sword cjange form, and the Grand Fisher released his "Ban Kai" Form.
This could also explain, why a human becomes a Shinigami, if stabbed by a Zanpakutou: The Zanpakutou is an A part and by stabbing it into the soul, it's own A part gets pushed away, because there is a surplus inside.
i think thats just a way to boost the amount of reiatsu that a live human soul already has whit in its self.
Now, by stabbing a human in the heart with it may transfer the powers to the human where the reiatsu is being controlled.
But in Ichigo's case there was an already inmense amount of reiatsu there that he sucked the hell out of Rukia.
I forgot what the proper terminology they use to reffer to those things that Byakuya distroyed in Ichigo's soul.
But i think that it works some thing tlike that.........I kinda dont remember what my point was but there.
:heh:
Astronopolis
2006-03-30, 04:31
so what it all boils down to is that hichigo basically plays out as a 'deus ex machina' a la the kyuubi sealed in naruto (i hate to make naruto bleach comparisons) plus or minus a couple key points, like hichigos' motives of taking over ichigos' body (plus a million things going on in the manga that im probably not aware of), or am i totally wrong and should shut up? :heh:
WarpObscura
2006-03-30, 05:56
Based on what we currently know... A Vizard/Vaizard/Whatever has to consciously "beat down" the inner Hollow in order to control it. What about Arrancar? Do we know if Grimmjow and the others have to repress the "Shinigami side"? Is it possible for the "dominant side" to switch between the two?
NoSanninWa
2006-03-30, 06:27
Based on what we currently know... A Vizard/Vaizard/Whatever has to consciously "beat down" the inner Hollow in order to control it. What about Arrancar? Do we know if Grimmjow and the others have to repress the "Shinigami side"? Is it possible for the "dominant side" to switch between the two?
Yep, I believe that Grimjaw has defeated his shinigami side and become the king of his inner world.
It seems quite probable that if Hichigo beats Ichigo, then he might become an Arancar.
WarpObscura
2006-03-31, 08:28
Yep, I believe that Grimjaw has defeated his shinigami side and become the king of his inner world.
It seems quite probable that if Hichigo beats Ichigo, then he might become an Arancar.
As far as we know, that has not been outright confirmed, has it, the first point of yours?
NoSanninWa
2006-04-01, 01:41
Hence the words "I believe." Not outright confirmed, but it was awfully well implied by chapter 220.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-04-01, 15:08
Did you guys see that Ichigo's outside body began began to slip? There was even a hole on his chest near the end of the chapter (220 I beleive).
Did you guys see that Ichigo's outside body began began to slip? There was even a hole on his chest near the end of the chapter (220 I beleive).
Not only that, he had hollow feet (check in 219 IIRC) and a hollow arm after the Vaizard blasted it off. The hole was there, and his mask had completely covered everything but his right eye and a little bit of his hair.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-04-02, 18:27
Not only that, he had hollow feet (check in 219 IIRC) and a hollow arm after the Vaizard blasted it off. The hole was there, and his mask had completely covered everything but his right eye and a little bit of his hair.
Yeah I saw that. Really scary thought if Ichigo were to lose.
mbibby88
2006-08-16, 14:04
ichigo is suposeuvly a vizard but he did something vizards dident !
he became both a hollow and shinigami at the same time and for those who are waiting for the manga will understand ^^;
i think that he will syncronise with the hollow and become one instead of two people. Beacuse the hollows a part of him any way and he must have more spirit power to stop his from coming out!
Hyperion
2007-06-04, 12:17
Was it just me, or did anyone else notice that Hichigo no longer has black teeth?
In ep 39 when fighting Zaraki, Ichigo had to fight Hichigo to reclaim Zangetsu.
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7058/vlcsnap1286020ev4.jpg
in eps 124 and 125, Hichigo no longer has black teeth....
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4972/vlcsnap1002112xx6.jpg
And is it just me, or does he look way more evil/psycho in episode 39?
overthere!
2007-06-04, 21:24
^^^^^ Nice speculation. Although those are probably just coloring inconsistencies.
WarpObscura
2007-06-04, 21:45
Was the black teeth thing for all of Hichigo's appearances in 39?
Hyperion
2007-06-05, 01:11
Was the black teeth thing for all of Hichigo's appearances in 39?
Yup, anytime after that he never has black teeth. shame.
Aizen is Ichigo's father. What happened was (as Aizen explained) that in that flashback sequence, the hollow merges with Shiba (black-hair) and thus forms the monster that is the real Aizen. Aizen uses his hypnosis soul slayer to look like pretty boy and fool everyone, until the time comes. The guy that lives with Ichigo isn't his real father, but there's a lot of reincarnation and complicated symbolism that isn't really explained until later on in the manga, so I won't spoil it for you. :)
The hollow was passed down biologically and was dormant until Urahara awoke it.
Disclaimer: parts of above may be lies.
I must say, I was worried for a moment that I was spoiled there. :heh:
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