Do you think Bleach has a lack of creativity?

[Tangster]

Hi...I have watched both Naruto and Bleach...I know that both series cannot really be compared against each other...But does anyone who has watched both series feel that Bleach is lacking creativity? I mean, not creativity in terms of storyline but in techniques. There are xxxkai and bankai and the rest are mere swordfights...There are also other techniques like magic but they were never really used in the series.

Naruto, however, I think has a lot of creativity in terms of character making, technqiues and tactics, plus it has a really good storyline. The fact that we are not still sure if Kabuto, who first appeared in episode 20 (anime) something, is working for akatsuki or orochimaru has told us the great and creative storyline planning in the long- term. Also, there are a great variety of jutsues, like the elements of fire, water, tree, mud etc and ninjaly, illusionary and physically. The tactics explained such as in a ninja pursuit etc shows some good insights as to the depth at which Naruto is being created. I think Naruto is one of the most creative shows that has ever made.

I am not saying Bleach is not a good series. Frankly, the anime is done so fantastically that the sword fights are never boring (even if most of the time they are mere sword fights with no special techniques) and the graphics are better than Naruto. But in terms of creativity, I think Naruto is one ahead. Any thoughts?

[quikimpulse]

I think Bleach is more creative than Naruto. Just the idea of making a anime about soul reapers is very creative. I have seen many anime dealing with ninjas and such. Bleach is only 60 ep long compared to Naruto's 160+. I think its unfair to say that Naruto is more creative when there is so much more to be discovered in bleach. I personally haven't read bleach manga. But i have read naruto manga. The current status of naruto is not doing too well to me compared to its previous arcs. I feel i have more of a reason to continue bleach than naruto just because there are still many unanswered questions or events that haven't been explained yet.

[Souzouryoku]

Rawr..don't compare the two. Naruto and Bleach are two different series. As for Bleach being creative, I think that it is very different from other series. Naruto isn't that creative. Sure, it's "different" but I've seen tons and tons of show that consist of Ninjas. I'm not saying Naruto isn't creative, but it sure as heck isn't so original. Nothing is ever 100% original.
~
This is going to turn into a debate about which series is better -.-

[Last_Hope]

Well, in Samurai Champloo they don´t have any special supermoves at all and that show pwns! both Bleach and Naruto in every way possible. :D

But but I don´t know if I would like to see a fight in Bleach where they call out different technique names every 20-seconds. That doesn´t really fit the mood for the fights in Bleach. They should have just a few elegantly named techniques that fit them. Luckily for me that´s how it is. :D

[KanaKaishou]

Point...Imagine the BK v Ichigo fight in Naruto...

[acidflower]

Hi...I have watched both Naruto and Bleach...I know that both series cannot really be compared against each other...But does anyone who has watched both series feel that Bleach is lacking creativity? I mean, not creativity in terms of storyline but in techniques. There are xxxkai and bankai and the rest are mere swordfights...There are also other techniques like magic but they were never really used in the series.

Naruto, however, I think has a lot of creativity in terms of character making, technqiues and tactics, plus it has a really good storyline. The fact that we are not still sure if Kabuto, who first appeared in episode 20 (anime) something, is working for akatsuki or orochimaru has told us the great and creative storyline planning in the long- term. Also, there are a great variety of jutsues, like the elements of fire, water, tree, mud etc and ninjaly, illusionary and physically. The tactics explained such as in a ninja pursuit etc shows some good insights as to the depth at which Naruto is being created. I think Naruto is one of the most creative shows that has ever made.

I am not saying Bleach is not a good series. Frankly, the anime is done so fantastically that the sword fights are never boring (even if most of the time they are mere sword fights with no special techniques) and the graphics are better than Naruto. But in terms of creativity, I think Naruto is one ahead. Any thoughts?

Boy are you ever off about Naruto. Hunter x Hunter has done what Naruto has done.
Please read a review about Hunter x Hunter on anidb.info/animenfo.com or anywhere so you know which characters are which.

Here are some examples (please note that Hunter x Hunter came before Naruto)


There is an exam (oh lookie here, sounds very similar to the Chuunin exam), for which the main character wants to pass, so he can meet his father. He meets friends along the way, and they become close friends. They go through a series of tests, which tests things such as survival, and such (just like the Chuunin exam). In the end, they fight other candidates who also want to become Hunters (just like the Chuunin exam).

Now, on to the characters.

Comparing Kurapica (HXH) to Sasuke (Naruto)

Kurapica
-He's the sole survivor of his clan <-- Oh hey, coincidence, Sasuke happens to be the sole survivor of his clan also!

-His clan was murdered by the Genei Ryodan (a group of powerful people)

-He seeks to revenge his clan

-He has an ability in his eyes, when he gets emotional, his eyes turn red and such (I can't remember the details). <-- Doesn't this sound just like the Sharingan?
-Note, only the clan Kurapica is from has this type of ability

Comparing Gon (HXH) to Naruto (Naruto)

Gon
-He's a happy go lucky person <-- Need I say more? :D


Now, onto the "Chakra"
The main character and his friends later learn how to use their "Nen". They learn new attacks also. Sounds just like how Naruto uses his Chakra.



I don't believe Naruto is original at all.

[Altharion]

tangster you say that bleach lack creativity in techniques and not storyline, and then shows us an example of naruto which isnt bleach but can be used as an example. But the example you show us is about storyline and not techniques as you first mention. so could you ellaborate your question without making your own paradox?

[carb]

well for one thing, bleach has a lot of repeating fight action sequences, mainly the final 1v1 blow where it is all decided. However, these kinds of things you only notice in the anime. Manga is different because even though it shows you pictures, there is still some imagination going on there.

As for naruto and basing this on naruto vs sasuke fight, let me just say that naruto has some nicer fluid fighting animation as compared to bleach

[Arti]

They are both good, but I think Naruto has more potential. It has created such a large world and fights aren't as one dimensional. Yeah, I called Bleach fights one dimensional. They're just powerups and once you see a character's shikai and bankai, it's not as captivating anymore (which is why I didn't like Renji vs Ichigo part 2 because nothing new was shown. Just some "ARGH, SOUL POWERUP!" action).

I do believe Bleach does a great job of character development, but I enjoy the fights and the world of Naruto more.

[Koganei]

Erhm.... pardon me but to me I think the Naruto fights are kinda one dimensional as well. I'll elaborate with the past few arcs shown in the anime of Naruto which usually if not always end up with Naruto fighting whatever enemy that is conjured up with the same old repeated combination of Kage-Bunshin and Rasengan that to me is one dimensional....

And on the subject of power-ups in Bleach.... erhm wasn't that Naruto vs Neji fight the same thing? Just as Naruto is supposedly about to lose he powers up with the Kyubi Chakra and beats Neji.

In the Naruto vs Gaara fight after the Chuunin Exam as Sakura is encased in one of the transformed claws of Gaara on that tree what did Naruto do? Charge up an immense amount of Chakra to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin. That isn't a power-up?

Also to the topic poster's subject it's too early to tell with Bleach as it's only 62 eps so far in the Anime which are amazing with very few if any exceptions as far as good eps go and Naruto's been out far longer in terms of Anime and Manga I believe as well. Your opinions are your own but using the example of Jutsus yeah there are many jutsus that can be used in the world of Naruto but how many have we actually seen? I mean Naruto to the best of my knowledge uses 2 techniques at most(Kage-Bunshin and Rasengan), Sasuke (3-4 Fire element techniques, 1-2 Sharingan specific techniques, and Chidori), Gaara (about 5 if I remember correctly I could be wrong), Kakashi (Sharingan, Dog summons, and Chidori/Raikiri) I'm using only a few because the other charcters don't really use that many techniques and my case in point is that even though there's a ton of jutsu that can be created we haven't really seen that much out of any of the characters in Naruto either.

[Arti]

Erhm.... pardon me but to me I think the Naruto fights are kinda one dimensional as well. I'll elaborate with the past few arcs shown in the anime of Naruto which usually if not always end up with Naruto fighting whatever enemy that is conjured up with the same old repeated combination of Kage-Bunshin and Rasengan that to me is one dimensional....

And on the subject of power-ups in Bleach.... erhm wasn't that Naruto vs Neji fight the same thing? Just as Naruto is supposedly about to lose he powers up with the Kyubi Chakra and beats Neji.

In the Naruto vs Gaara fight after the Chuunin Exam as Sakura is encased in one of the transformed claws of Gaara on that tree what did Naruto do? Charge up an immense amount of Chakra to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin. That isn't a power-up?

All you cited are Naruto's fights. Yes, I concede that they are one dimensional. That's why many people find don't like his fights. It's also why Shikamaru is such a popular character.

[Altharion]

if you compare naruto and bleach to its anime then naruto will of course win by content, as bleach is going at a way too fast speed 180 chapters in 62 episodes? they actually cut alot of scenes and key plot development from the manga, the manga also contained much bloodier scenes then the anime though this has happened to naruto aswell.

i also think the character development is much better in bleach, but i think that bleach and naruto fights have induvidual entertainment, it clearly depends on who is fighting i think for both naruto and bleach have some boring fights and some exciting fights. it can range from several things, but my two reasons are the character that fights and how well its played out by the artist.

i dont think that naruto has a better world then bleach, i think kishimoto has messed up entirely in this, first ninja's are assassins who mainly kills their target if they dont kill them, then they commit seppuku. now i can strike that and say kishimoto has his own way of ninja (like the lame thing naruto says) and has ninja who does garbage work, weed plucking etc etc which in my opinion drags down the world. since after almost 300 chapters he hasnt described much of the world after kakashi explains in the beginning, we only know most about leaf, sand, sound and abit mist which isnt much to brag about in bringing creativity to the naruto world, the techniques isnt that much to brag about since i believe every jutsu has been done in a ninja manga, book and movie before. there are a few exceptions like sexy no jutsu which isnt that creative, funny or bright imo.

[JubeiYamazaki]

I don't get how people can say "You can't compare Bleach to Naruto" of course you can, they're both Shonen books/shows.

And when it comes to Shonen stuff, I don't look at it as creativity but style. Because Shonen is as restricted in genre as lets say, porn. For example, you can add philosphical meaning, make that shit as deep as the Atlantic, add all these crazy elements to it, but in the end people are gonna bump uglys and knock boots. And instantly be brought back down to being a porn.

Same shit with Shonen. So whenever I look at a Shonen show, I look at the style that the artist is going for, and both Naruto and Bleach have just such an awsome style, and character designs are bomb as fuck and if their personalities match their style, I should say, "jive" with their design, I'm instantly hooked. Whenever I watch or read any Shonen I'm not looking for something so powerful in presentation that it changes my life and make me double guess my existence and shit, you know what I mean? Whenever I watch a Shonen all I'm looking for is action and an interesting story, hell the story doesn't even need to be that involving. I just want to see my favorite characters kick ass, pure and simple. That's why DBZ sucked, as soon as Goku and Gohan started phasing out the original crew and what not.

Although I must say imo Naruto started going downhill a little bit after the Zabuza arc, where basically all the great team fights got split into 1 on 1s. And everyone execpt Kishimoto knew how to write Sakura right, in terms of her capablities. While Bleach still keeps shining after all this time. It keeps getting better and better.

I personally love both though. Even though I am enjoying Bleach more, Naruto has a magic that can't be emulated and vise versa. Both have great expanded worlds, and an awsome amount of artistic style.

[Istan Bravo]

Well, in Samurai Champloo they don´t have any special supermoves at all and that show pwns! both Bleach and Naruto in every way possible.
I agree with you. I just finished watching the whole Samurai Champloo series. The story, characters development and the fighting scenes is 10x better than Bleach/Naruto. And I love their comedy too!!:D

[ShuiMei]

Bleach? Lacking in creativity? Not at all. I think Kubo's done an absolutely amazing job with the series all the while having the series follow the basic codes and conventions of shounen series. Regardless of the fact that there are some really typical elements in the series, Kubo manages to keep his readers on their toes, surprising them with plot twists and other developments. Just when you think you know where he's going he throws something out there and it just makes your brain hurt :P

In regards to Naruto vs. Bleach, I'd take Bleach, I like watching both but Naruto doesn't captivate me the same way Bleach does, you know where Kishimoto's going with his story and while Kubo has planned everything in Bleach ahead of time, or so he says, there's always something that throws you off- like in the current manga arc in Bleach, I don't know where it's all really going but I think it's absolutely gripping and I want to find out. I don't get that same sense of urgency when I read Naruto.

I also think Kubo knows how to develop his characters much better than Kishimoto, despite having an ungodly amount of characters. Even when he just introduces a character you have a good idea of what kind of person that character is, when it comes to Kishimoto there's still characters that he introduced from the start that we still don't really know anything about :/ In the Narutoworld it seems like basically everyone is either a hard-worker or a genius, if you're not one of those things you're not really going to get too much development as a character or you're not really that important :/

[hitokirigirl]

I think more than creativity, an anime is good when it succeeds in SURPRISING you.
How do you feel when you're all "wtf ???, I'd never thought of that, how the hell did he do that ?"....

You have many moments like that in Bleach, more than in Naruto, and honestly it's enough for an action anime...

Besides, from now it's very hard to make creativity in anime dealing with action and super power...

[1.0.7.]

bleach has never been about too much flashy tactics and fights..the story is where it's at..

[wuabbs]

Not at all, Bleach seems to be doing perfectly fine at the current moment. Enjoying it quite a bit.

I think more than creativity, an anime is good when it succeeds in SURPRISING you.
How do you feel when you're all "wtf ???, I'd never thought of that, how the hell did he do that ?"....

Very true indeed.

[hitokirigirl]

Not at all, Bleach seems to be doing perfectly fine at the current moment. Enjoying it quite a bit.



Very true indeed.


:p

bleach has never been about too much flashy tactics and fights..the story is where it's at..

I don't see where the storyline is so great in Bleach....the unpredictable stuffs, yes.
Naruto gives you exactly what you expect, that's why I'm less and less watching it ^^"

[NoSanninWa]

I don't see where the storyline is so great in Bleach....the unpredictable stuffs, yes.
Naruto gives you exactly what you expect, that's why I'm less and less watching it ^^"
Unless I misunderstand, you just answered your own question.

[Last_Hope]

I agree with you. I just finished watching the whole Samurai Champloo series. The story, characters development and the fighting scenes is 10x better than Bleach/Naruto. And I love their comedy too!!:D

Yeah, it´s a truly great show. I found it to be very creative in terms of story, character and fighting. For the comedy part, well Baseball Blues. :heh:

I also really, I mean really, like the OP. One of my favourites. :D

For Bleach vs Naruto. Well I prefer Bleach, even if they have lots of techniques in Naruto sometimes the fights can be pretty slow and boring themselves when they just stand there and talk... So I don´t really think the fights in Naruto are more creative, but they´re definitely longer. :heh:

[Mousuke]

I watch both (except for Naruto's nauseating filler eps. Ugh) and I'd pick Bleach anyday. It's not that I don't like Naruto, but that I like it better.

Naruto has a fun setting. I really like the ninja world Kishimoto set up, the ninja ranks, the general plot, and the characters. But the whole series has a somewhat immature feel to it. Like, we know about the characters but we don't really know them as intimately as we know the cast of Bleach. And the Naruto anime moves so slowly in my opinion. The "let's find Tsunade!" arc could have been resolved in four episodes instead of roughly ten. The "chaos after the Chuunin exam" arc could have been resolved in half the time it originally took. Even the "Save Sasuke!" arc dragged on too long. The fights are entertaining and creative, but they take too long to develop and resolve. I know the pacing is due to how they animate the manga, but it's still something that kills the series for me.

Bleach is just something I like better. I like the setting better, the story better, the characters better, the fights better, the animation better, the music better...you name it, I like it better. :heh: In Bleach I actually feel something deep for the characters and literally chew my nails during the fights. It's fast, it's tightly connected, it's entertaining, it's good, it's gripping. Enough said.

I guess an easier way to put it is that I watch a Naruto episode once whereas I watch a Bleach episode over and over again.

[Novarain]

In 60 episodes of Bleach more has been covered and expanded than 160 episodes of Naruto. And if Naruto can take one episode just to shoot one fireball (can't remember the name) i dun really think that's creative.

On the other hand, the idea of Soul Slayers having names and unique abilities based on the wielder's character and personality is the first i've ever seen in any anime i've watched. The developement is a lot faster.

In fact i think the only thing Bleach should change is the idea of finishing fights in one final blow (think Ichigo vs Zaraki or Kuchiki Byakuya).

[Eclipze]

This thread sounds so much similar to the naruto vs one piece thread...

One thing I'll agree with: The fights in bleach need more involvement with kidous. Well, unless you're talking about Ichigo(who doesnt know any kidou).

[neoko]

You think naruto is original but most of what you see can be seen in other ninja animes. It does have a few (more) original ideas though.

But the thing i would give naruto over bleach is that the world is sooo big, practically anything can happen. Where as bleach's world seems limited. I didn't explain myself well, but maybe someone might understand me :D

[otacu]

When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime.

Simply put the shonen genre is already done and redone. The main "formula" has been done tons of times. To make a succesful shounen-fighting anime you take that formula and simply change charachters and settings and that's it. The story is always the same: Naruto and Bleach are the same. But naruto has managed to be a little more creative.

First the fightings. There is no point in arguing here: naruto's fightings are simply better. And i'm not talking about the fightings of the charachter Naruto, i'm talking about the others fightings. First of all the concept of jutsu is more interesting and has more variety. Every ninja is able to learn about every jutsu available (or something like that). That means that the charachters are not limited to one or two attack per charachter like in bleach (everyone has shikai and someone has bankai... and stop). Sure there is specialization cause it's more clever to know a limited amount of jutsu well than a large amount at a low level but everyone cast a large number of the most basic jutsu. And not only that. The jutsu are even creative. Sure we have stupid things like chidori and rasengan that are basically the same old "power" punch (something like db) but there are tons of other jutsu that are centered around shadows, mind, sand, internal chakra, cloning, illusions, movements.... you name it!
On the contrary in Bleach 95% of the shikai/bankai are just power strikes... how to explain better... just power ups to do more damage with rare exceptions.
In naruto there are specialized ninjas that are better at close range or long range fights, illusions or ninjutsu or taijutsu ... one ninja is more useful or less useful based on his skills and the opponent's type and the ground. In bleach.... you are simply stronger or weaker. The only few charachters that have a different style of fightings are Youruichi and Soi Fong, and Inoue and that medic captain (and they don't even fight). The others simply tap their power and throw the power at the enemy. There is no strategy or planning or thinking in the fights. The stronger just win. There was a funny preview episode of the anime were Renji and Ichigo argued about who is stronger... "i'm 10 times stronger" "yes? so i'm 100 times stronger than you!" "And i will get 1000 times stronger" and so on... it was meant to laugh but it really show the level of "fightings" in Bleach.
In Naruto there is more strategy or even team work (unheard in Bleach). Not only Shikamaru but remember Neji? Or Kiba? or Shino?or... well add almost everyone except naruto and few others.

And now on the actual fightings in the anime/manga. In Bleach the fightings are poorly made. We just see the charachter that makes a pose and release his power... then somewhere around the enemy there is an explosion. Or even worse the fightings are just concluded without showing what was going on in details. Scene of the start of the fight then cut and then scene of the end of the fight.Especially at the end of the SS saga. It's frustrating and stupid. I want to see actual fights like the awesome Lee vs Gaara or Neji vs Hinata.... oh man that were sweet animations....

Many said that Bleach has only 60 eps compared to 160 of Naruto... well first take 30 eps of fillers away from naruto. So the Naruto anime main story is more than twice the bleach anime. Second compare the manga. Bleach at the end of this saga is around chapter 180 and Naruto after the save sasuke saga was around chapter 238 which is not twice the amount of the bleach chapters. You know why? Because the Bleach anime has a very fast pace compared to naruto. It was a wise decision to go fast with bleach anime episodes... just imagine to slow down the bleach fights that are already uncreative right now (no strategy or something to explain about the powers since they are almost the same).... it would be hell!

We are talking about creativity?
Let's start talking about the world. Naruto's World is simply better. Not only it's more vast and has a more realistic feeling (not realism but realistic) that hints you that there is a history and an original geography but it breaks free from the good/evil cliche'. In bleach the shinigami are good and are right and the hollows are evil. In naruto the different nations are not classified in right and wrong. When Sand attacked Leaf was evil? No it was simply a war between two nations and Sand has its own reasons to attack. That's nice.
The ninja of kishimoto are not the historical ninja. But compare the two kind of ninja is stupid cause that world is different from ours and ninja have a different purpouse. They are soldier and serve as army in a world where gun powder is pretty useless. They have headbands to show their loyalty. The hidden villages serves as army of the nations and there is balance between the villages. There are minor flaws..(where the hell comes that tv from???) but nothing big.
Bleach's world is less creative and doesn't even makes sense. First, is just another spiritual world parallel to standard earth (we have seen tons of this already). Second it makes really no sense. How do the shinigami lives? do they have to eat? why they are spirtual being! Do they mate? How come Rukia has a sister? Do they age? What's the deal with shinigami city?....is just an empty labirinth with no apparent use. Why is the city japanese style and is said to exists since centuries? japanese culture is at most 1300years old... is the fist captain the first and only head that SS had in his history?
In the end you have to accept this as granted and not think too much about bleach setting...

I could go on forever but i want to conclude with one or two words about Naruto and Ichigo. They are both crappy charachters. Cliched and almost the same. Let's face it the japanese want that type of cocky main charachter. But there is thing that makes Naruto more likeable (or less annoying): he is actually weak. Naruto was never the more powerfull charachter around... everywhere he went there was someone that could have simply kick him (Kakashi, Sasuke, Oro, every jounin and so on). He was always underrated. Nobody really had big expectations about him... there were other charachters that captured more attention than him for most of the series (like sasuke or neji). There was a funny scene during the chuunin exam where naruto was knocked down and when he regained his senses Shikamaru said “he could never be the main charachter of a story”. On the other hand Ichigo really steal the spotlight from the other charachters. He is the center of the story, everyone has high hopes for him, he has to save the day, he is the one and only hero. Ishida, Chad and Inoue are not even worth of being support charachters: they didn't play a role in the story and nobody is interested in them.
Let alone the most annoying and stupid thing of Bleach: ichigo ridicolous power ups. Before entering SS he was nothing and in almost 10 days he has reached god-like power (when he stopped like nothing the execution of Rukia and the manga said that he has the power of 1 million shinigami swords... i was screaming!). After the hype about how powerfull the shinigami captains were... (they are hundreds years old being that do nothing else than fighting...) Ichigo trashed them in a few days... please! Naruto after years of training and fighting is propably just about strong as Kakashi.
Naruto is far from being perfect (and that curse seal level 1 and 2 is pure shit) but beats any day Bleach in a creativity confrontation.

[Altharion]

maany things youve said about bleach is wrong, i suggest that you read the manga again.

[NoSanninWa]

maany things youve said about bleach is wrong, i suggest that you read the manga again.
You may not agree with his conclusions, but it seems to me that his facts are correct. Can you tell us what exactly he made a mistake about?

[sanghyun1990]

why the hell you people comparing Bleach with Naruto, just watch them there is no reason to compare them. Anyway Bleach has decent creativity, it is about shimigami fighting that is a orignal idea.

[Altharion]

You may not agree with his conclusions, but it seems to me that his facts are correct. Can you tell us what exactly he made a mistake about?

no i agree on several parts in his conclusion, i disagree on some parts aswell.

but many of his question has that drags down bleach in his post has been answered in the manga.

[Dark`]

When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime.
Really? I doubt there can be any "clear" winner in any of these comparison threads, simply because it's all based on opinion. And last I checked, opinion != fact. Now, I will attempt to reply to your whole post. I may have to stop short and come back to it since I have work soon, but I will continue where I left off if that happens.

Simply put the shonen genre is already done and redone. The main "formula" has been done tons of times. To make a succesful shounen-fighting anime you take that formula and simply change charachters and settings and that's it. The story is always the same: Naruto and Bleach are the same. But naruto has managed to be a little more creative.
I agree with your first point, the shounen genre is quite tired. However, the same can be said for many genres (romance, comedy, etc). And I'll bite, how has Naruto been more creative? I guess I'll just go down a little to find out.

First the fightings. There is no point in arguing here: naruto's fightings are simply better. And i'm not talking about the fightings of the charachter Naruto, i'm talking about the others fightings. First of all the concept of jutsu is more interesting and has more variety. Every ninja is able to learn about every jutsu available (or something like that). That means that the charachters are not limited to one or two attack per charachter like in bleach (everyone has shikai and someone has bankai... and stop). Sure there is specialization cause it's more clever to know a limited amount of jutsu well than a large amount at a low level but everyone cast a large number of the most basic jutsu. And not only that. The jutsu are even creative. Sure we have stupid things like chidori and rasengan that are basically the same old "power" punch (something like db) but there are tons of other jutsu that are centered around shadows, mind, sand, internal chakra, cloning, illusions, movements.... you name it!
To start off, I can't really take any kind of comparison post seriously when someone just nonchalantly throws around words like "no point arguing" before the discussion even begins. That's far too vain. True, there are many jutsus. However, do you really expect Kishimoto to go through with all of them? That'd take forever. Couple with the fact that many jutsus are known only by a certain village, and soon you hit a snag. I mean, all the ninjas in Konoha can only learn up to a certain amount of jutsus before they run out of things to learn, unless they somehow obtain the teachings of another village. So far, Orochimaru is the only individual to attempt that, so our protagonists are bound to run out sooner or later. However, it can be argued that the same will happen to Bleach, so the last point is moot. True, many jutsus, I'll give you that. But you overlooked something.

On the contrary in Bleach 95% of the shikai/bankai are just power strikes... how to explain better... just power ups to do more damage with rare exceptions.
In naruto there are specialized ninjas that are better at close range or long range fights, illusions or ninjutsu or taijutsu ... one ninja is more useful or less useful based on his skills and the opponent's type and the ground. In bleach.... you are simply stronger or weaker. The only few charachters that have a different style of fightings are Youruichi and Soi Fong, and Inoue and that medic captain (and they don't even fight). The others simply tap their power and throw the power at the enemy. There is no strategy or planning or thinking in the fights. The stronger just win. There was a funny preview episode of the anime were Renji and Ichigo argued about who is stronger... "i'm 10 times stronger" "yes? so i'm 100 times stronger than you!" "And i will get 1000 times stronger" and so on... it was meant to laugh but it really show the level of "fightings" in Bleach.
In Naruto there is more strategy or even team work (unheard in Bleach). Not only Shikamaru but remember Neji? Or Kiba? or Shino?or... well add almost everyone except naruto and few others.
There is strategy in Naruto, but there's strategy in Bleach too. You're just not looking hard enough (people have already referenced some earlier fights). Furthermore, there's been plenty of the "powering up" you mentioned that's been shown in Naruto too. Naruto's fight against Neji, against Gaara, against Sasuke, against the Akatsuki. Sasuke's fight against the Sound 4, against Naruto. Chouji's fight against one of the Sound 4. You also forgot about the fact that there's something called Kidou (Demon Arts) in Bleach, and we've barely even tapped into that. Remember, Aizen mentioned 4 things a Shinigami can become proficient at: Zanjutsu (Sword Art), Hakuda (Hand-to-Hand), Hohou (Movement) and Kidou (Demon Arts). You also throw Shikai/Bankai/Zanpakutous together. You forget that with each Zanpakutou there lies different abilities. Kira's Zanpakutou doubles the weight of whatever it cuts, Byakuya's becomes tiny little blades, Rukia's creates a circle of ice which complete entraps an enemy...and so on. Teamwork, I agree with you. But you also have to look at the premise of the show. Naruto is a show based on teamwork, Bleach is not. That's like comparing two romance shows in which one is based on the relationship of a loving couple, and one that's like a harem show. They're related (romance), but the execution of its plot and devices would be different. One shows the development of one guy and one girl (primarily), and the other of one guy and many girls (eventually one guy and one girl, but not only) or vice-versa. There's also the concept of who's stronger in Naruto too. I mean sure, you have underdogs winning (Naruto vs Neji, Shikimaru vs basically whoever he fights), but at times you also have the stronger/strongest person winning anyways (Itachi, Orochimaru, etc).

This post has gotten long-winded, so I'll continue in another post. (Please excuse the double posting.)

[Dark`]

And now on the actual fightings in the anime/manga. In Bleach the fightings are poorly made. We just see the charachter that makes a pose and release his power... then somewhere around the enemy there is an explosion. Or even worse the fightings are just concluded without showing what was going on in details. Scene of the start of the fight then cut and then scene of the end of the fight.Especially at the end of the SS saga. It's frustrating and stupid. I want to see actual fights like the awesome Lee vs Gaara or Neji vs Hinata.... oh man that were sweet animations....
I agree that some of the fights have been very well done in Naruto (basically any Rock Lee fight), but that again is simply due to the circumstances. Personally, the only fights I liked were Rock Lee fights because...he got his hands dirty. But you look at many other of the fights, they tend to be the same. Naruto always used Kage Bushin no Jutsu and Rasengan over and over (because that's like all he knows), and Sakura is always just using her brute strength. As for Sasuke, he's only got 3 moves that he constantly throws around: Chidori, Grand Fireball no Jutsu and his Sharingan. Even for the strategic fights, you can argue that it's always the same. Shikimaru always has to move his enemy around to where he can trap them with his Shadow Imitation no Jutsu. Sure, it's interesting to see how he does it, but in the end, it's still the same. Different packaging, same content.
You argue that the fights in Bleach are poorly done, well I find that at least there's some diversity, especially with all the different Zanpakutous and Kidous there are available. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with swords, but each sword has different properties. I fail to see how Naruto is better in that aspect. Just replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it's the same. Even take that above sentence, and replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it applies to Naruto. Here, I'll even mark it in blue. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with jutsus, but each jutsu has different properties.
You say Naruto is more interesting because you get to see how the fights end, but in all the fights the jutsus are essentially used in the same way. For me, in Bleach, we at least get to see some diversity in how the Zanpakutous are used. Just look at Byakuya's use of his Bankai vs Renji, and his use of Bankai vs Ichigo for reference.

Many said that Bleach has only 60 eps compared to 160 of Naruto... well first take 30 eps of fillers away from naruto. So the Naruto anime main story is more than twice the bleach anime. Second compare the manga. Bleach at the end of this saga is around chapter 180 and Naruto after the save sasuke saga was around chapter 238 which is not twice the amount of the bleach chapters. You know why? Because the Bleach anime has a very fast pace compared to naruto. It was a wise decision to go fast with bleach anime episodes... just imagine to slow down the bleach fights that are already uncreative right now (no strategy or something to explain about the powers since they are almost the same).... it would be hell!
At the same time, I could also say you could speed up the Naruto fights. Just look at the fight with Sakura and Chiyo-baa vs Sasori. At the end of multiple chapters it kept exclaiming "The fight concludes! Who will be victorious?", but the fight dragged on for more chapters. And again with the no strategy thing...how about Kenpachi's fight against Tousen? How was that for strategy?

I have to leave for work now, I'll finish up when I get back (should be around 5 hours from now...maybe a little longer if I go out for dinner afterwards).

We are talking about creativity?
Let's start talking about the world. Naruto's World is simply better. Not only it's more vast and has a more realistic feeling (not realism but realistic) that hints you that there is a history and an original geography but it breaks free from the good/evil cliche'. In bleach the shinigami are good and are right and the hollows are evil. In naruto the different nations are not classified in right and wrong. When Sand attacked Leaf was evil? No it was simply a war between two nations and Sand has its own reasons to attack. That's nice.
The ninja of kishimoto are not the historical ninja. But compare the two kind of ninja is stupid cause that world is different from ours and ninja have a different purpouse. They are soldier and serve as army in a world where gun powder is pretty useless. They have headbands to show their loyalty. The hidden villages serves as army of the nations and there is balance between the villages. There are minor flaws..(where the hell comes that tv from???) but nothing big.
Bleach's world is less creative and doesn't even makes sense. First, is just another spiritual world parallel to standard earth (we have seen tons of this already). Second it makes really no sense. How do the shinigami lives? do they have to eat? why they are spirtual being! Do they mate? How come Rukia has a sister? Do they age? What's the deal with shinigami city?....is just an empty labirinth with no apparent use. Why is the city japanese style and is said to exists since centuries? japanese culture is at most 1300years old... is the fist captain the first and only head that SS had in his history?
In the end you have to accept this as granted and not think too much about bleach setting...

I could go on forever but i want to conclude with one or two words about Naruto and Ichigo. They are both crappy charachters. Cliched and almost the same. Let's face it the japanese want that type of cocky main charachter. But there is thing that makes Naruto more likeable (or less annoying): he is actually weak. Naruto was never the more powerfull charachter around... everywhere he went there was someone that could have simply kick him (Kakashi, Sasuke, Oro, every jounin and so on). He was always underrated. Nobody really had big expectations about him... there were other charachters that captured more attention than him for most of the series (like sasuke or neji). There was a funny scene during the chuunin exam where naruto was knocked down and when he regained his senses Shikamaru said “he could never be the main charachter of a story”. On the other hand Ichigo really steal the spotlight from the other charachters. He is the center of the story, everyone has high hopes for him, he has to save the day, he is the one and only hero. Ishida, Chad and Inoue are not even worth of being support charachters: they didn't play a role in the story and nobody is interested in them.
Let alone the most annoying and stupid thing of Bleach: ichigo ridicolous power ups. Before entering SS he was nothing and in almost 10 days he has reached god-like power (when he stopped like nothing the execution of Rukia and the manga said that he has the power of 1 million shinigami swords... i was screaming!). After the hype about how powerfull the shinigami captains were... (they are hundreds years old being that do nothing else than fighting...) Ichigo trashed them in a few days... please! Naruto after years of training and fighting is propably just about strong as Kakashi.
Naruto is far from being perfect (and that curse seal level 1 and 2 is pure shit) but beats any day Bleach in a creativity confrontation.

[Altharion]

another thing.

if it is comparable all jutsu's can be learned except for bloodline limits, now if we bleach this then it will be:

zanpaktou - bloodline limit

Kidou - jutsu

in bleach everyone can learn kidou as everyone can learn normal jutsu's in naruto.
while zanpaktou are more like bloodline jutsu, just that it isnt family based or anything.

[otacu]

To start off, I can't really take any kind of comparison post seriously when someone just nonchalantly throws around words like "no point arguing" before the discussion even begins. That's far too vain. True, there are many jutsus. However, do you really expect Kishimoto to go through with all of them? That'd take forever. Couple with the fact that many jutsus are known only by a certain village, and soon you hit a snag. I mean, all the ninjas in Konoha can only learn up to a certain amount of jutsus before they run out of things to learn, unless they somehow obtain the teachings of another village. So far, Orochimaru is the only individual to attempt that, so our protagonists are bound to run out sooner or later. However, it can be argued that the same will happen to Bleach, so the last point is moot. True, many jutsus, I'll give you that. But you overlooked something.
The point is any ninja has access to every jutsut that isn't secret or a specialty of a village. And everybody knows the basics.


There is strategy in Naruto, but there's strategy in Bleach too. You're just not looking hard enough (people have already referenced some earlier fights). Furthermore, there's been plenty of the "powering up" you mentioned that's been shown in Naruto too. Naruto's fight against Neji, against Gaara, against Sasuke, against the Akatsuki. Sasuke's fight against the Sound 4, against Naruto. Chouji's fight against one of the Sound 4. You also forgot about the fact that there's something called Kidou (Demon Arts) in Bleach, and we've barely even tapped into that. Remember, Aizen mentioned 4 things a Shinigami can become proficient at: Zanjutsu (Sword Art), Hakuda (Hand-to-Hand), Hohou (Movement) and Kidou (Demon Arts). You also throw Shikai/Bankai/Zanpakutous together. You forget that with each Zanpakutou there lies different abilities. Kira's Zanpakutou doubles the weight of whatever it cuts, Byakuya's becomes tiny little blades, Rukia's creates a circle of ice which complete entraps an enemy...and so on.
Ehm i already said that you don't have to search too much for strategy or anything better in the Naruto fights (the charachter) cause the main charachter fights are always somewhat lacking (like ichigo's). The powering up is a feature that will always be in any anime of this genre.... as crappy as it is... it's better to have slow pace in power ups like in naruto than Bleach where in 10 days Ichigo becomes god.
No i don't forget that there are Demon Arts... it's only that in the 210 chapters so far we have barely see a couple times or so these "demon arts". And the Hakuda (hand to hand) too it's used just by Soi Fong and Youroichi is more like a special ability. I already said that 95% of the fighters in Bleach are almost the same.... just put Soi Fong and the rare kidou based fighters in the other 5%. So far shikai=1 ability... and the rare bankai=1 ability... it's not enough. So 1person=2abilities at best.


Teamwork, I agree with you. But you also have to look at the premise of the show. Naruto is a show based on teamwork, Bleach is not. That's like comparing two romance shows in which one is based on the relationship of a loving couple, and one that's like a harem show. They're related (romance), but the execution of its plot and devices would be different. One shows the development of one guy and one girl (primarily), and the other of one guy and many girls (eventually one guy and one girl, but not only) or vice-versa. There's also the concept of who's stronger in Naruto too. I mean sure, you have underdogs winning (Naruto vs Neji, Shikimaru vs basically whoever he fights), but at times you also have the stronger/strongest person winning anyways (Itachi, Orochimaru, etc).

That's why Naruto has more creativity. It has teamwork an element many times overlooked in the genre. It has always been 1on1 fights in this kind of animes/manga so when there is a title that has teamwork i take it as an improvement. Lastly, it's not true that the strongest always win in Naruto. The rankings of powers are not clear as in Bleach where one fighter is stronger no matter what. For example Itachi feared to fight Jiraya, Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him but still fought Jiraya even at disadvantage. There is no clear stronger. It depends on the opponents skills. Sharingan based abilities are pretty useless against Gai. It's more complicated than you think. In Bleach you can clearly make a ranking.

[NoSanninWa]

So far shikai=1 ability... and the rare bankai=1 ability... it's not enough. So 1person=2abilities at best.
Actually we've already seen Byakuya demonstrate that a shikai or a bankai can have more than one related power. And how many powers does Shikimaru have? 2 powers both related to shadow controling? How many powers does anyone have? Only a few people have a lot of powers and almost all of them have very related powers.

[otacu]

I agree that some of the fights have been very well done in Naruto (basically any Rock Lee fight), but that again is simply due to the circumstances. Personally, the only fights I liked were Rock Lee fights because...he got his hands dirty. But you look at many other of the fights, they tend to be the same. Naruto always used Kage Bushin no Jutsu and Rasengan over and over (because that's like all he knows), and Sakura is always just using her brute strength. As for Sasuke, he's only got 3 moves that he constantly throws around: Chidori, Grand Fireball no Jutsu and his Sharingan. Even for the strategic fights, you can argue that it's always the same. Shikimaru always has to move his enemy around to where he can trap them with his Shadow Imitation no Jutsu. Sure, it's interesting to see how he does it, but in the end, it's still the same. Different packaging, same content.
You argue that the fights in Bleach are poorly done, well I find that at least there's some diversity, especially with all the different Zanpakutous and Kidous there are available. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with swords, but each sword has different properties. I fail to see how Naruto is better in that aspect. Just replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it's the same. Even take that above sentence, and replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it applies to Naruto. Here, I'll even mark it in blue. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with jutsus, but each jutsu has different properties.
True except that in bleach 1person=1sword=1ability.... and he always use that. In Naruto 1person=Xjutsu=Xabilities.
Not only that but there is heavy difference between the jutsus. A chidori is different from shadowbinding, or rasengan is different from a mind controlling jutsu, or an illusion, or a clone jutsu. It's variety and the jutsu are not only meant to direct attack (like in bleach) they can control opponents movements, make illusions, enhance defences, enhance movements, trick the opponents with clones.... In Bleach almost all the shikai are here to do direct damage. That for the "theory" part...
when we come down to the actual fightings naruto is more detailed and show how the fights evolve, every punch, every kick every jutsu. In bleach manga/anime many fights are left to our imagination.:uhoh:


You say Naruto is more interesting because you get to see how the fights end, but in all the fights the jutsus are essentially used in the same way. For me, in Bleach, we at least get to see some diversity in how the Zanpakutous are used. Just look at Byakuya's use of his Bankai vs Renji, and his use of Bankai vs Ichigo for reference.
Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. It has been 210 chapters so far in the manga and i still have to see another anyone that can do more than just scream the name of his sword and just tap his powers while staying still.


At the same time, I could also say you could speed up the Naruto fights. Just look at the fight with Sakura and Chiyo-baa vs Sasori. At the end of multiple chapters it kept exclaiming "The fight concludes! Who will be victorious?", but the fight dragged on for more chapters. And again with the no strategy thing...how about Kenpachi's fight against Tousen? How was that for strategy?
You mean the way that Kenpachi let himself stab to hit Tousen? That's strategy? That's stupidity of Tousen that stab him without knowing that much more than a single hit is needed to kill someone like Kenpachi. I would have been immensely appreciated this thing if Kenpachi then have died. Letting myself stabbed is not "strategy" is exchanging my life to hit the opponent. Without death it's stupid, it lose the drama factor. I mean... why doesn't Kempachi uses this perfect strategy everytime?

(ot)But that hint you another problem of Bleach.... nobody dies... there is blood flowing everywhere (is the author mocking me?) and nobody dies. Not a single one. Naruto has this same problem but there were some sweet deaths to enjoy along the story.... in Bleach... not even one.

Actually we've already seen Byakuya demonstrate that a shikai or a bankai can have more than one related power. And how many powers does Shikimaru have? 2 powers both related to shadow controling? How many powers does anyone have? Only a few people have a lot of powers and almost all of them have very related powers.
Well Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. Shikamaru has two main shadow jutsu but he can even use the clone jutsu, the dispel jutsu and other basics jutsu. He is not limited. And everyone else is clearly like him.

In fact Bleach will sure be better if more powers related to bankai are showed to us or the kidou gain importance. Kidou are completely marginal in bleach and never used in combats. Again Byakuya use kidou but that's just him.

[acidflower]

When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime.

Simply put the shonen genre is already done and redone. The main "formula" has been done tons of times. To make a succesful shounen-fighting anime you take that formula and simply change charachters and settings and that's it. The story is always the same: Naruto and Bleach are the same. But naruto has managed to be a little more creative.

First the fightings. There is no point in arguing here: naruto's fightings are simply better. And i'm not talking about the fightings of the charachter Naruto, i'm talking about the others fightings. First of all the concept of jutsu is more interesting and has more variety. Every ninja is able to learn about every jutsu available (or something like that). That means that the charachters are not limited to one or two attack per charachter like in bleach (everyone has shikai and someone has bankai... and stop). Sure there is specialization cause it's more clever to know a limited amount of jutsu well than a large amount at a low level but everyone cast a large number of the most basic jutsu. And not only that. The jutsu are even creative. Sure we have stupid things like chidori and rasengan that are basically the same old "power" punch (something like db) but there are tons of other jutsu that are centered around shadows, mind, sand, internal chakra, cloning, illusions, movements.... you name it!
On the contrary in Bleach 95% of the shikai/bankai are just power strikes... how to explain better... just power ups to do more damage with rare exceptions.
In naruto there are specialized ninjas that are better at close range or long range fights, illusions or ninjutsu or taijutsu ... one ninja is more useful or less useful based on his skills and the opponent's type and the ground. In bleach.... you are simply stronger or weaker. The only few charachters that have a different style of fightings are Youruichi and Soi Fong, and Inoue and that medic captain (and they don't even fight). The others simply tap their power and throw the power at the enemy. There is no strategy or planning or thinking in the fights. The stronger just win. There was a funny preview episode of the anime were Renji and Ichigo argued about who is stronger... "i'm 10 times stronger" "yes? so i'm 100 times stronger than you!" "And i will get 1000 times stronger" and so on... it was meant to laugh but it really show the level of "fightings" in Bleach.
In Naruto there is more strategy or even team work (unheard in Bleach). Not only Shikamaru but remember Neji? Or Kiba? or Shino?or... well add almost everyone except naruto and few others.

And now on the actual fightings in the anime/manga. In Bleach the fightings are poorly made. We just see the charachter that makes a pose and release his power... then somewhere around the enemy there is an explosion. Or even worse the fightings are just concluded without showing what was going on in details. Scene of the start of the fight then cut and then scene of the end of the fight.Especially at the end of the SS saga. It's frustrating and stupid. I want to see actual fights like the awesome Lee vs Gaara or Neji vs Hinata.... oh man that were sweet animations....

Many said that Bleach has only 60 eps compared to 160 of Naruto... well first take 30 eps of fillers away from naruto. So the Naruto anime main story is more than twice the bleach anime. Second compare the manga. Bleach at the end of this saga is around chapter 180 and Naruto after the save sasuke saga was around chapter 238 which is not twice the amount of the bleach chapters. You know why? Because the Bleach anime has a very fast pace compared to naruto. It was a wise decision to go fast with bleach anime episodes... just imagine to slow down the bleach fights that are already uncreative right now (no strategy or something to explain about the powers since they are almost the same).... it would be hell!

We are talking about creativity?
Let's start talking about the world. Naruto's World is simply better. Not only it's more vast and has a more realistic feeling (not realism but realistic) that hints you that there is a history and an original geography but it breaks free from the good/evil cliche'. In bleach the shinigami are good and are right and the hollows are evil. In naruto the different nations are not classified in right and wrong. When Sand attacked Leaf was evil? No it was simply a war between two nations and Sand has its own reasons to attack. That's nice.
The ninja of kishimoto are not the historical ninja. But compare the two kind of ninja is stupid cause that world is different from ours and ninja have a different purpouse. They are soldier and serve as army in a world where gun powder is pretty useless. They have headbands to show their loyalty. The hidden villages serves as army of the nations and there is balance between the villages. There are minor flaws..(where the hell comes that tv from???) but nothing big.
Bleach's world is less creative and doesn't even makes sense. First, is just another spiritual world parallel to standard earth (we have seen tons of this already). Second it makes really no sense. How do the shinigami lives? do they have to eat? why they are spirtual being! Do they mate? How come Rukia has a sister? Do they age? What's the deal with shinigami city?....is just an empty labirinth with no apparent use. Why is the city japanese style and is said to exists since centuries? japanese culture is at most 1300years old... is the fist captain the first and only head that SS had in his history?
In the end you have to accept this as granted and not think too much about bleach setting...

I could go on forever but i want to conclude with one or two words about Naruto and Ichigo. They are both crappy charachters. Cliched and almost the same. Let's face it the japanese want that type of cocky main charachter. But there is thing that makes Naruto more likeable (or less annoying): he is actually weak. Naruto was never the more powerfull charachter around... everywhere he went there was someone that could have simply kick him (Kakashi, Sasuke, Oro, every jounin and so on). He was always underrated. Nobody really had big expectations about him... there were other charachters that captured more attention than him for most of the series (like sasuke or neji). There was a funny scene during the chuunin exam where naruto was knocked down and when he regained his senses Shikamaru said “he could never be the main charachter of a story”. On the other hand Ichigo really steal the spotlight from the other charachters. He is the center of the story, everyone has high hopes for him, he has to save the day, he is the one and only hero. Ishida, Chad and Inoue are not even worth of being support charachters: they didn't play a role in the story and nobody is interested in them.
Let alone the most annoying and stupid thing of Bleach: ichigo ridicolous power ups. Before entering SS he was nothing and in almost 10 days he has reached god-like power (when he stopped like nothing the execution of Rukia and the manga said that he has the power of 1 million shinigami swords... i was screaming!). After the hype about how powerfull the shinigami captains were... (they are hundreds years old being that do nothing else than fighting...) Ichigo trashed them in a few days... please! Naruto after years of training and fighting is propably just about strong as Kakashi.
Naruto is far from being perfect (and that curse seal level 1 and 2 is pure shit) but beats any day Bleach in a creativity confrontation.

Did you not read my previous post?! Naruto is not original nor creative. I want to tell you that Hunter x Hunter has almost the exact same concepts as Naruto, except it came before Naruto. So, therefore, naruto is not original! "Jutsu" are the exact counterpart to "Nen" in Hunter x Hunter. Sasuke's Sharingan is the same thing as Kurapicas....red eye thingy. Kurapica, the sole survivor of his clan seeks revenge from the Genei Ryodan, which is the same thing that Sasuke wants to do! The storyline, especially the Chuunin exam is so close to the Hunter Exam (in HXH). Although, some parts of the storyline differs from Naruto.

Therefore, it would make more sense to compare Hunter x Hunter to Bleach. But, hardly anyone has watched HXH because all of you are so engrossed with Naruto to try older anime. <-- that was a generalization.

I agree with some of your points regarding bleach.

[Jhereg42]

I don't think Bleach suffers from a lack of creativity at all, from the correct perspective.

First off, Bleach's humor is a lot more creative than Naruto's. Most of the humor in Naruto is rather slapstick, or revolves around Naruto's everpresent stupidity, where as the humor in bleach revolves around intelligent sarcasm and those little annoying character issues that we observe in the people around us. Kubo also does a very good job of making fun of his own genre. For example, Rukia's drawings were a clear poke (to me at least) at the early eps of Naruto where we got scroll diagrams of everything Sakura was explaining. Ichigo's reaction to those was the writer's own sarcasm bleeding through. Also, Kon makes fun of the typical animated "mascot" that has a tendancy to pop up in anime for the sole purpose of selling plushies. Don Kanonji making fun of the Power Rangers. I won't even go into Shinigami Highschool.

As far as the creativity in the various fights, I find I prefer Bleach's style to Naruto. They are not weighed down by flashbacks, and what they lack in flashy, fluffy techniques they make up for in humor (Ken vs Tousen) or drama (Ichi v. Renji, Soi Fong v. everyone's favorite kitten). Bleach's focus fightwise is on character (either definition or development) than on "Oh god, he used that cool technique to totally pwn the guy" moments that Naruto seems to have in abundance.

[Illuyankas]

Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule.
I hate it when people misuse this line - "The exception that proves the rule" is based on the fact one of the meanings of the word prove is 'to test', as in 'the exception tests the rule, finds it faulty and helps make a new one.' It was originally used to demonstrate scientific thinking in action, not that your idea was correct because something didn't fit! Arghh!

/rant

[otacu]

Did you not read my previous post?! Naruto is not original nor creative. I want to tell you that Hunter x Hunter has almost the exact same concepts as Naruto, except it came before Naruto. So, therefore, naruto is not original! "Jutsu" are the exact counterpart to "Nen" in Hunter x Hunter. Sasuke's Sharingan is the same thing as Kurapicas....red eye thingy. Kurapica, the sole survivor of his clan seeks revenge from the Genei Ryodan, which is the same thing that Sasuke wants to do! The storyline, especially the Chuunin exam is so close to the Hunter Exam (in HXH). Although, some parts of the storyline differs from Naruto.

Therefore, it would make more sense to compare Hunter x Hunter to Bleach. But, hardly anyone has watched HXH because all of you are so engrossed with Naruto to try older anime. <-- that was a generalization.

I agree with some of your points regarding bleach.
I have read it but still....
I have watched the first 30 episodes of HxH and you know what? I was bored to death (and never heard of this nen thing). Gon is one of the most annoying charachter ever (yes worse than naruto or ichigo). When he forced the ninja to retire it was the last insult and i returned the dvds to my friend(with insults included). Did i stopped too early? I mean... 30 episodes of pure boredom to gain a hunter license? mmmh maybe it gets better later... but i won't rewatch hxh even under torture. On the contrary i wouldn't mind watching naruto or bleach again.

But back on topic.... the point here is not the originality ... it's creativity! Sure naruto is not very original and follow the shounen formula (but not as much as Bleach) but HxH wasn't original either. Sasuke/Kurapica are the only survivor of the clan and seek revenge? do you think that HxH was the first to do this and it's original? This was done tons of times before. I don't really know about the power of Kurapica's eyes... but i doubt they have the same functionality of sharingan. It would be simple plagiarism.
And we are not discussing if nen or jutsu are original ... heck! they are the same as magic abilities in the end. The problem is not being original (that's very difficult today) but how creative and interesting the things are.

To return on topic Bleach is too focused on ichigo and has less abilities and different "powers" that almost look or do the same. There are kidou but aren't used. The fights are too static and cerimonial. The author after 210 chapters should make things more interesting since the story is average at best (like every other anime/manga in this genre) i expect better figths.

[Ledgem]

I don't really know about the power of Kurapica's eyes... but i doubt they have the same functionality of sharingan. It would be simple plagiarism.
If you reword a sentence so that it still contains the same idea and general terms, it isn't considered plagiarism. I presume a similar stance could be taken here. Just nitpicking.

In terms of overall story, Bleach is creative. There's unrest in the Netherworld - where else have you heard of this, with the exception of Christian mythology's 'War in Heaven'?

In terms of how it plays out, Bleach is relatively uncreative. In the beginning, fights were a bit more creative and unique. Now, frequently it feels more like we see some special factors, but it's a matter of who's more *something* - faster, stronger, or what have you. One could say that Aizen's deception falls out of this category, but the way it's presented just feels like he's displaying raw power.

The Naruto fans shouldn't feel that Naruto is any different, though. I used to watch Naruto, and I absolutely loved the battles. There were tactics involved and actual thought. Beyond a certain stage, it became less about tactics and more about who could simply overpower the other. This may be something that all shounen-type anime fall prey to. It's still enjoyable to watch a character power up and then go at it, but it isn't particularly original.

The only redeeming factor for powering up in Bleach is that Ichigo is frequently on the verge of losing the fight, but then he has some sort tof revelation that allows him to press onward. It helps to make him feel a little less overwhelming.

[otacu]

In terms of overall story, Bleach is creative. There's unrest in the Netherworld - where else have you heard of this, with the exception of Christian mythology's 'War in Heaven'?
Angel Sanctuary? Saint Seiya Hades? and so on...
Just unrest in Netherworld isn't enough to be original.

And yes the more a series advance the more power up matters and less tactics and other factors. It's always like this and i hate it even in Naruto. But what makes me really angry is that Bleach is like that from the beginning.

[SuperKnuckles]

As much as I love Bleach (for the most part), it really isn't original in terms of its story. Much of its spirit world, spirit beings and all the fights between the multiple dimensions of spiritual beings is almost a near exact copy of Yu Yu Hakusho. Even in the swords and them being named and having supernatural powers of their own, it's almost like with the swords and other weapons in Inuyasha.

Character design-wise however, the show is very refreshing and cool. I don't think many characters can match the designs of Zaraki, Ichigo and others. Even if it all superficial to an extent, the characters are all pretty cool atleast.

[acidflower]

I have read it but still....
I have watched the first 30 episodes of HxH and you know what? I was bored to death (and never heard of this nen thing). Gon is one of the most annoying charachter ever (yes worse than naruto or ichigo). When he forced the ninja to retire it was the last insult and i returned the dvds to my friend(with insults included). Did i stopped too early? I mean... 30 episodes of pure boredom to gain a hunter license? mmmh maybe it gets better later... but i won't rewatch hxh even under torture. On the contrary i wouldn't mind watching naruto or bleach again.

But back on topic.... the point here is not the originality ... it's creativity! Sure naruto is not very original and follow the shounen formula (but not as much as Bleach) but HxH wasn't original either. Sasuke/Kurapica are the only survivor of the clan and seek revenge? do you think that HxH was the first to do this and it's original? This was done tons of times before. I don't really know about the power of Kurapica's eyes... but i doubt they have the same functionality of sharingan. It would be simple plagiarism.
And we are not discussing if nen or jutsu are original ... heck! they are the same as magic abilities in the end. The problem is not being original (that's very difficult today) but how creative and interesting the things are.

To return on topic Bleach is too focused on ichigo and has less abilities and different "powers" that almost look or do the same. There are kidou but aren't used. The fights are too static and cerimonial. The author after 210 chapters should make things more interesting since the story is average at best (like every other anime/manga in this genre) i expect better figths.


The "nen" stuff and the whole arc on Kurapica getting his revenge and his friends helping him are in the OVA (at least I think so). Btw, could you please finish Hunter x Hunter and then give an opinion about it?

I feel its somewhat unfair to Hunter x Hunter that you've only seen 30 episodes of the total 62(?), and you haven't watched the (3-4?) ovas (each with an estimated 18 eps per ova).

Also, forgive me if I haven't seen as much anime as you, but I don't recall any other anime (so far) that has the exact same thing. If other do exist, please name them, I would be happy to watch them.

Also, the whole "sword" thing in Bleach has only so much room to extend. Its like Prince of Tennis, 130+ eps of pure tennis. The author tried to give some variety to the tennis "attacks", but now, I feel its at a point where it's gotten pointless to watch the show.

While in Naruto, Kishimoto masashi can come up with any random move and just throw chakra in there, and it works. Think about it, its somewhat similar to DBZ, power up your chakra/whatever, make it into a little..ball thingy, and either shoot it at your enemy (in DBZ's case) or have it attached to your palm and run at your enemy.

So, you can't really say in terms of attack creativity, that Bleach is less creative than Naruto.

[Dark`]

The point is any ninja has access to every jutsut that isn't secret or a specialty of a village. And everybody knows the basics.
That isn't really every jutsu then. You can't use the word "every" and then have exclusions. However, in Bleach, all Shinigamis can learn Kidou, with no exception (well, besides lack of knowledge/willingness to learn).



Ehm i already said that you don't have to search too much for strategy or anything better in the Naruto fights (the charachter) cause the main charachter fights are always somewhat lacking (like ichigo's). The powering up is a feature that will always be in any anime of this genre.... as crappy as it is... it's better to have slow pace in power ups like in naruto than Bleach where in 10 days Ichigo becomes god.

Ahem, no. Ichigo did not become God in 10 days, far from it. Since episode 1, we already knew he had a supreme amount of reiatsu (spirit energy). He just didn't know how to control it. So you're telling me that his gaining experience and knowledge of how to control his huge power is him becoming God? Well, God must no longer be an omnipotent being cause he just got his ass handed to him by Aizen.
I daresay Naruto's growth in strength is faster than that of Ichigo's, but I won't go there. It's more even to me. All shounen anime main character grows at an extraordinary speed, even Naruto. I fail to see how you can hold that against Bleach.

No i don't forget that there are Demon Arts... it's only that in the 210 chapters so far we have barely see a couple times or so these "demon arts". And the Hakuda (hand to hand) too it's used just by Soi Fong and Youroichi is more like a special ability. I already said that 95% of the fighters in Bleach are almost the same.... just put Soi Fong and the rare kidou based fighters in the other 5%. So far shikai=1 ability... and the rare bankai=1 ability... it's not enough. So 1person=2abilities at best.
Okay...and how many different skills have Naruto shown off? Neji? Sasuke? Shikamaru? Sakura? Ino? Rock Lee? Yes, there may be more jutsus in Naruto than in Bleach, but does that really matter? I fail to see how it's better to have more of something, when it simply gets recycled all the time. Naruto has 2 jutsus that he uses all the time, Shikamaru has the one, Ino has the one, etc. No matter how many jutsus you have, once you enter repetition, it doesn't matter how many you have. Recycling 5 things over and over is basically no different than recycling 10 things over and over. Yes, you have double, but you still see it over and over. You say rare Hakuda and Kidou based fighters? Well, I'm tired of seeing episode after episode of Naruto using nothing but Kage Bushin no Jutsu and Rasengan. Sure, there's some variety, but how often do you see people like Shikamaru and the others compared to Naruto?
1 person = 2 abilities at best? I can apply that to Naruto as well. And who are you to say that it's not enough? Are you some anime police now? It may not be enough for you, but that's your opinion. So state it as such, don't go off and say things like this as fact.

That's why Naruto has more creativity. It has teamwork an element many times overlooked in the genre. It has always been 1on1 fights in this kind of animes/manga so when there is a title that has teamwork i take it as an improvement. Lastly, it's not true that the strongest always win in Naruto. The rankings of powers are not clear as in Bleach where one fighter is stronger no matter what. For example Itachi feared to fight Jiraya, Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him but still fought Jiraya even at disadvantage. There is no clear stronger. It depends on the opponents skills. Sharingan based abilities are pretty useless against Gai. It's more complicated than you think. In Bleach you can clearly make a ranking.
It's more complicated than what I think. Okay, I'll bite. How do you know what I'm thinking? Yes, I already gave Naruto it's props for the use of teams. However, when was the last time we saw a true team fight? That time against Zabuza, and then it was all one-on-one until the recent manga arc, which reinstated the team idea. So it was used twice, wow. You say there hasn't been a lot of Kidou in 210 chapters? Well...I can also say there hasn't been a whole lot of teamwork in 290 chapters either. And again, I want a clear example of when the stronger person hasn't won in Naruto. You say Itachi feared to fight Jiraiya, how can you prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt? There is such a thing as a tactical retreat in a situation that doesn't benefit you, it's not always like Naruto or Ichigo where they charge in regardless of the situation and hope for the best. Itachi knew that if he fought, he wouldn't have an advantage because Jiraiya got the first move. Retreating from sound strategy is different from retreating because you fear someone. As for Orochimaru vs Jiraiya, yes, he fought him when he was at a disadvantage. Well, you can argue that half the times Ichigo was in a fight, he was at a disadvantage. Or, even better, how about Ishida vs Mayuri? Ishida was paralyzed, couldn't do anything. How's that for disadvantage? That fight, in the end, came out a draw, so just like your example, there was no clear winner.

I don't care if you don't think Bleach is better than Naruto. My problem is with you busting into the Bleach forum and trying to pass off what you say as the gospel. Stuff like When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime. and There is no point in arguing here. As I've stated before, that's your OPINION, which you're entitled to. However, they way you're stating it, it seems like you're trying to pass it of as fact. You have your opinion, but not everyone agrees to it. But don't say things like "clear winner" and "no point arguing" like everything you say is the gospel, because guess what? It's not.

[Dark`]

True except that in bleach 1person=1sword=1ability.... and he always use that. In Naruto 1person=Xjutsu=Xabilities.
1 person = 1 sword, yes. But 1 ability? Geez, you're full of yourself. Oh, and besides the rare appearance of a character like Itachi, how many jutsus do most of the main characters have? Or rather, not have, but have shown. Naruto: Kage Bushin, Rasengan. (2) Sasuke: Sharingan, Chidori, Grand Fireball. (3) Shikamaru: Shadow Imitation. (1) Ino: Mind Control. (1) Most of the non-central cast have next to no jutsus, yet your comparison is constantly about how Naruto has more jutsu. Okay, so as an example, let's replace all of this. Instead of abilities (jutsus, Shikais, Bankais, etc), let's replace them with words. So just because one item (let's say an essay) has more words than other, the one with more words is automatically more creative? Quantity is not the important thing here. As well, again, the basis for the shows are different. It's not right to compare them directly. As I mentioned before, 2 different romance shows: one focuses on a couple, the other on a harem. The harem anime would, by all rights, have more girls (or guys) than the one that focuses on a couple. Does that automatically mean that the harem anime is more creative than the other one? Heck no. The basis of the two shows are different, how can you even compare them that way?

Not only that but there is heavy difference between the jutsus. A chidori is different from shadowbinding, or rasengan is different from a mind controlling jutsu, or an illusion, or a clone jutsu. It's variety and the jutsu are not only meant to direct attack (like in bleach) they can control opponents movements, make illusions, enhance defences, enhance movements, trick the opponents with clones.... In Bleach almost all the shikai are here to do direct damage. That for the "theory" part...
when we come down to the actual fightings naruto is more detailed and show how the fights evolve, every punch, every kick every jutsu. In bleach manga/anime many fights are left to our imagination.:uhoh:
Okay...well, every Shikai and Bankai have been different so far. Hinamori's Shikai focuses on Kidou, as does the pretty-boy guy. Unohana's focuses on healing, Aizen's on illusion, Komamura's creates a big guy out of nowhere, Tousen's literally created a hole in the dimension where the opponent's various senses are rendered useless. How is that different from Naruto's varying jutsus that have different effects. Furthermore, if all the Shikai here do direct damage, I can also argue that all your Ninjutsu and Taijutsu is focused on direct attack. Genjutsu is the only one that does otherwise, while in terms of Shikai, there are various ones that don't simply "direct attack", and that's not including Kidou.
As for how the fights play out, that's up to personal preference. Just because you see everything that happens in a fight in one show, while another leaves some things up to your imagination (not a bad thing), that doesn't automatically make one show more creative than other. I fail to see how this contributes anything to the discussion.

Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. It has been 210 chapters so far in the manga and i still have to see another anyone that can do more than just scream the name of his sword and just tap his powers while staying still.
As someone else said, what's an "exception to the rule"? You can't state something and when something shows up that proves otherwise, you say "Oh, well that's an exception." Anyone can use that to brush aside any evidence. I mean, technically speaking, I can brush off everything you mentioned that makes Naruto creative in your eyes and say "Oh, well that's the exception to the rule". That makes me the winner then, yay!

You mean the way that Kenpachi let himself stab to hit Tousen? That's strategy? That's stupidity of Tousen that stab him without knowing that much more than a single hit is needed to kill someone like Kenpachi. I would have been immensely appreciated this thing if Kenpachi then have died. Letting myself stabbed is not "strategy" is exchanging my life to hit the opponent. Without death it's stupid, it lose the drama factor. I mean... why doesn't Kempachi uses this perfect strategy everytime?
How is that not strategy? From http://www.answers.com/strategy&r=67:

2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal.

Hmm...plan of action? Allow Tousen's blade to make contact with his body in order to figure out where he is. Specific goal? Get a hold of Tousen to kick his ass/escape from his Bankai. Just because it doesn't fit your "ideal" image of strategy doesn't automatically mean it isn't a strategy. The world doesn't revolve around you.
And why is death a necessary element here for drama? Oh, I get it. Just because it doesn't fit your bill for drama, it's automatically wrong/bad. I could say the same thing about the Gaara/Rock Lee fight then. Just like Komamura interrupted to save Tousen, Gai interrupted to save Rock Lee. So to me (not really, just using this as an example), because Rock Lee didn't die there, it's stupid, and it lost its drama factor. See? The same thing happened in Naruto. Just that in your bias towards Naruto, it's okay there. But it's not okay for Bleach. And why would Kenpachi need to employ that strategy everytime? Different opponents require different strategy. He used that because Tousen disabled all his senses. Why would he need to use that strategy, say, against Komamura, where the situation is different. He has all the uses of his senses, so why would he need to do the same thing? That's like saying Zabuza should use the strategy in his fight against Kakashi's Sharingan all the time because it worked that one time. He used to mist to conceal himself and closed his eyes to avoid getting hypnotized. Well, if that's such a (to use your words) "perfect strategy", would he use it against Gai when fighting him? Not unless he's stupid. Why? Because the SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

Edit: I forgot to mention the Sasuke/Naruto vs Haku fight. In that fight, Sasuke put his (more Naruto than his own actually) body on the line in an attempt to figure out the secret to Haku's Ice Mirrors. In that, perhaps due to pure instincts, he managed to consistently avoid getting hit in vital areas while keeping his eyes on Haku, hoping to find anything. He made Naruto keep doing Kage Bushin no Jutsu and attack so that Haku would counterattack, thus injuring them both. I fail to see how Sasuke's strategy of putting his and Naruto's body on the line in an attempt to figure out Haku's jutsu any different from Kenpachi putting his body on the line in an attempt to break out of Tousen's Bankai. The "trap", for lack of a better term, that both parties (Kenpachi and Sasuke/Naruto) may have been somewhat different, but the danger presented to both of them was equally as grave (death being the worse result). The only difference is that Kenpachi's strategy worked in the end, while Sasuke got knocked out which resulted in Naruto powering up to escape from Haku's Ice Mirrors. Sasuke also didn't die. You would've enjoyed immensely if Kenpachi had died in that fight? Well, I would've enjoyed immensely if Sasuke and/or Naruto died in that fight too. But...neither of them did die, did they? So if you can criticize Kenpachi's strategy and the fact that he didn't die (which in the end criticizes Bleach), you should criticize Sasuke's strategy and the fact that he and Naruto didn't die either (which would criticize Naruto).

(ot)But that hint you another problem of Bleach.... nobody dies... there is blood flowing everywhere (is the author mocking me?) and nobody dies. Not a single one. Naruto has this same problem but there were some sweet deaths to enjoy along the story.... in Bleach... not even one.
Kaien? Ichigo's mom. Tousen's friend. The entirety of Central 46. There have been deaths in Bleach, just not of the main characters. How many central characters in Naruto have died? Yes, Zabuza and Haku died, but they were hardly central characters (arc characters at the most). And besides Yondaime, the only other death at all was of Sandaime. However, that was necessary to proceed the plot (Tsunade becoming the new Hokage, sealing Orochimaru's arms, weakening Konoha, etc). You can also argue that he wasn't that central of a character either. But, to an extent, I do agree. However, overall, there have been more deaths. Central 46 aside, there was the death of the Grand Fisher, numerous normal people (due to Yamii sucking out their souls), and 4 Arrancars. Excluding the fodder, there are still 5 named deaths during the series time frame...meaning not in flashbacks (Grand Fisher and 4 Arrancars), compared to 3 in Naruto (Zabuza, Haku, Sandaime). The only thing I will grant you is that a protagonist did die in Naruto, while so far no protagonist has died yet in Bleach (aside from Kaien...but time-wise, he died before the series started, and so doesn't count in this). I do agree with you to an extent though, far too many people are surving fatal wounds. That much, I do give you.

Well Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. Shikamaru has two main shadow jutsu but he can even use the clone jutsu, the dispel jutsu and other basics jutsu. He is not limited. And everyone else is clearly like him.

In fact Bleach will sure be better if more powers related to bankai are showed to us or the kidou gain importance. Kidou are completely marginal in bleach and never used in combats. Again Byakuya use kidou but that's just him.
Well, you say that everyone else is clearly like him. Can Naruto use the dispel jutsu? He can't even perform Bushin no Jutsu, he only knows Kage Bushin because of the forbidden scroll. However, when have we seen him use them? Never, we've only seen him use the Shadow Imitation no Jutsu, and a modified version of it. I mean, at the same time, you can automatically assume that the vast majority of Shinigami from Soul Society know at least a few of the basic Kidou. You're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Naruto, but not to Bleach. You're saying we've hardly seen Kidou from most of the characters...well, I've yet to see Sasuke, Chouji, Ino, Shikamaru, Neji, Shino, etc, use those "basic" jutsus you mentioned. Sure, they may know them, but they never use them. I can use the same argument: most of the Shinigami know them, they just never use them. And again, there have been at least 4 instances of Kidou being used in combat: Hinamori/Kira/Renji before joining the Gotei 13 vs Huge Hollow, Byakuya vs Ichigo, Aizen vs Komamura. Yes, Kidou is used marginally, but Byakuya is not the exception to the rule because he's not the only one to have ever included Kidou in a fight.

[Eclipze]

Also, the whole "sword" thing in Bleach has only so much room to extend. Its like Prince of Tennis, 130+ eps of pure tennis. The author tried to give some variety to the tennis "attacks", but now, I feel its at a point where it's gotten pointless to watch the show.

Why the heck is PoT suddenly dragged into this and bashed? For god's sake, its Prince of Tennis. If you were looking for some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic to do a tennis shot, then you are watching the wrong anime.:bash:

PoT did one of the best job for a sports-shounen anime. Yes, you can argue how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated, but they add entertainment value. Slam Dunk was boring for me because it was no different from watching an actual basketball match. (oh wow, that guy can do a dunk, so can mr xyz on sports TV).

FYI, it wasn't PURE TENNIS. There were character interaction, a simple yet believable storyline, explanations on how using a certain "spin" cause the ball to move in this way or that.

That PoT comment/bashing was just itching for a flame post.:rolleyes:

[hitokirigirl]

Why the heck is PoT suddenly dragged into this and bashed? For god's sake, its Prince of Tennis. If you were looking for some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic to do a tennis shot, then you are watching the wrong anime.:bash:

PoT did one of the best job for a sports-shounen anime. Yes, you can argue how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated, but they add entertainment value. Slam Dunk was boring for me because it was no different from watching an actual basketball match. (oh wow, that guy can do a dunk, so can mr xyz on sports TV).

FYI, it wasn't PURE TENNIS. There were character interaction, a simple yet believable storyline, explanations on how using a certain "spin" cause the ball to move in this way or that.

That PoT comment/bashing was just itching for a flame post.:rolleyes:

And as being a fan of PoT, I think I will help you to defend my bishies :heh:

[Sacyn]

Concerning Naruto and Bleach.. I don't think it matters how many and what kind of abilities they have, it's the way those abilities are used. On the first page someone mentioned Samurai Champloo. That anime has no special skills at all, other than swordsmanship to the extreme. In that anime it clearly matters how the skills are used when there is combat, however samurai champloo isn't centered around fights so it actually deserves no mention in a post like this.

But anyway, the skill usage. If for example naruto were to continuously use his shadow replication and rasengan (As he is doing now in the fillers >.>') it would get boring fast. But if he were to throw variations in those skills (as he sometimes does with shadow replication), the skill instantly gets more interesting. What I like about naruto, which is different per person, is that they explain everything they do. Some people enjoy straight action, without any hesitation in between. But in naruto they try to find a logical explanation to what is happening, and to why they are reacting with their skills. In that case some skills are capable of countering each other and some characters are natural enemies of others due to their skill usage and ability to counter someone elses skills.

In the bleach fighting scenes this is usually left out. The attack explanations still exist, but aren't as expanded. Also the counter attacks aren't really perfectly countering something. It's just "Oh wow, you're faster than my skill." This does speed up fights and allow one skill to be used in many different ways without being bound to strict rules.

But when comparing them, I'd say they are both equally worth watching. You have the standard main character traits: Never gives up, makes straight to the point speeches that impress others, accomplish things that in the end make people realise their mistakes or admiration for the person, always have something special (Ichigo started with a large amount of spirit energy, where naruto had his kyubi).

The thing that sometimes bothers me is that in naruto they explain the characters quite in depth, just to drop them so you barely hear anything about them anymore. I haven't read the manga, but I wonder if it wasn't for the fillers that Hinata wouldn't have made a comeback as a fighting character.

In bleach, however, they barely expand some characters, or just expand a little and then put it to a complete stop. Inoue hasn't accomplished much yet and neither has chad, even though their powers have great potential.

Anyway. Bleach is at episode 60+ and they had a quite slow start, on the contrary to naruto. If you take the time of days the characters have experienced in the anime, the bleach characters haven't even been in action for that long compared to the naruto characters. The storyline on both animes has been unvealing itself nicely (apart from naruto's fillers).

They both have their good and bad points and I seriously think that it depends on your own personal opinion of what you like more in an anime. Currently, however, the fillers are destroying everything that was built up in Naruto in my opinion. Naruto is turning into a wuss who always uses the same skills in the same way. He doesn't know anything and everyone else in his team always outsmarts him, has more skills than him and makes him look like a fool all the time.

[Thewanderer]

If Bleach lacks creativity, I'd really like to see something ppl think DON'T lack creativity.

I think ppl just don't like fighing anime. I mean, they compare any kind of fighting anime to each other(Bleach to DBZ and Naruto, for crying out loud... they're not even close to being alike). I mean c'mon... when another fighting anime comes out, I'd even go as far as to expect ppl to say "AMG THEY'RE USING SWORDS! BLEACH RIPOFF!!!!11!1":rolleyes:

Bleach is as original as it'll get. If you think it is, get beamed up by aliens and watch what they're watching when you're getting probed. Heck, you ppl would even look for a reason to complain then...

[DrunkenRyder]

Naruto has how many real story line episodes? About 60 all together out of the 165+, just by watching the new Naruto Intro it will wrapp up the whole series for you.

Bleach however doesnt (though maybe it will).

Every episode of naruto is the same..KAGE BUSHIN NO JUTSU, RASENGAN!!.....don't deny it

And for those who say bleach lacks creativity, they should read the damn manga...

[kboykb]

Wow, there are some really long-winded replies in this thread and after browsing through a couple of them most of what I had to say has been said. :)

I also think Naruto's *fights* at least are more creative than Bleach. One thing that worries me about Bleach is that 1 fight between two people is *great*, but later on in the series if you were to watch those same two people have a rematch or even see that one person fight someone else it may not be as exciting because you'd already know his/her shikai/bankai.

In Naruto fights, don't include Naruto fights, lol (as in Naruto himself). I could watch Kakashi fight again and again and still be impressed because none of his fights are the same. The only person I could think of in Bleach that could do this is Byakuya and maybe Aizen / Yamamoto / Urahara. He's one of the most well-balanced characters in the series, having a multitude of shikai and bankai abilities, *plus* the ability to use multiple kidous. If every character were like that in Bleach it would be awesome, but still I'm not complaining. Using this method allows people to say "Wow, I can't WAIT to see Aizen's, Gin's, Urahara's, (etc.) bankai"! You usually don't see someone in Naruto saying "Wow, I can't wait to see Kakashi use this super duper technique of his!" because you really don't know what to expect.

You can't tell me that when Yoruichi introduced bankai into the series that your heart didn't jump for joy saying "Oh man another release? I wonder what all of the captain's bankai's are?!!" Same thing when Urahara introduced the names of zanpakutous into the series.

So hmm, I stand contested. While writing this post I actually made myself feel different about the creativity of Bleach, lol. But okay - I'll stop here.

w00t!* (Bleach and Naruto pwn by the way)

[noxian]

actually, Byakuya isn't the exception.
Renji has shown off different abilities to his sword.
so has Ichigo technically. granted some of them weren't under his control, forexample when his inner hollow took over, but nonetheless.
sui feng showed of her shikai ability, and h2h combat.
hmmm...Aizen used his sword for creating a fake body, (how it looked to me)creating illusion decoys in combat
Ikkaku's shapechanging sword, sure he still uses a pretty in your face physical style of combat but one could attribute that to his personality. one should be able to figure out 1 sword, sword and sheath, naginata, 3 section staff (iirc) operate differently though.

its true that the shikai/bankai are power-ups but if you're saying Bleach bogs down to a DBZ type power-fest, you need to reread/rewatch it. with the exception of Ichigo, Kenpachi, maybe Komamura (though we haven't really seen his bankai in action); tehre's always a definite strategic use for the shikai/bankai (this is assuming we're not going to bog down into a debate on what you consider "strategy").
Byakuya's shikai/bankai are near unblockable attacks
Aizen's sword deceives his opponents perception, he even uses his sword to fake having a different type of sword (its been a while but iirc, he had everyone thinking his sword was a water-elemental sword)
Tousen outright removes their perception except touch, but i'd like to hear how Aizen/and Tousen's bankai are merely power-ups
Sui Feng's shikai didn't even power her up noticeably. it was purely a special effect shikai that provided her with an instant-kill method
Kurotsuchi's shikai/bankai poisoned and weakened his opponents
Matsumoto clearly showed how her shikai could be used to avoid Kira's shikai effect, since...thats exactly how she used it
speaking of Kira, that too seemed less of a power-up and than a power-down for his opponent
Yumichika's was sort of apower-up i suppose...at the expense of his opponent

none of this says Bleach is more or less creative than Naruto (though my personal opinion is Naruto isn't even that good, but i'll admit part of that is i just can't get past how much i dislike Naruto himself. i have the same problem with WC3 and Arthas...), but if you say Byakuya is the only person to use his sword in a variety of ways i'd have to disagree.
and i'd also have to disagree that shikai/bankai is a mere power-up. some of them haven't even displayed a noticeable "power-up" effect. and most of them have a somewhat clear (depending on which character) use to their effects (once again; things like poison, illusion, energy draining)

hmmm...what else...
one might point out you're basically comparing a samurai manga/anime to a ninja manga/anime. there's a pretty big difference in fight style philosophy...
Naruto uses lots of tricks because that's (in the popular mythology) what ninja's do. smoke bombs, wooden decoys, magical ninja powers...
samurai-oriented action scenes are going to be more about face to face duels.
its like how a Jet Li movie is going to be different than a Jean Claude Van Dam movie. but (barring open bias) its pretty hard to say one is "better" than the other...Jet Li's fights are going to be acrobatic, fast Chinese-MA style scenes. JCVD's are going to show off a kickboxing style. i suspect a kickboxing fanatic might find JCVD's fights more interesting (saying this from the assumption that chinese/japanese MA are all the rage)

[Eclipze]

For people who say that Naruto is more about DBZ ("powerup, defeat enemy")....

Actually, "power up" scenes appear more often in Bleach.

In Bleach:
Ichigo--->release bankai and more reitsu(sp?) which is essentially like power-ups in DBZ.

Same goes for captains (like kenpachi releasing his eye-patch)....but the thing is, its not those non-sense powerups like DBZ ones.

In Naruto:
I can only think of Naruto releasing Kyuubi as a "power up" scene. Other than that, there have been no significant "power ups" that I can think of.

All in all, both are good shounen series;)

[shadowsoul]

Creative- totally unexpected ending
UnCreative- Everyone lives happily ever after

It would be more constructive to kill off at least some of the characters
instead everyone surviving being stabbed and slashed at least 1000 times before the series ends

[Biswa]

Ooof, i dislike it quite a bit when Bleach gets compared to another show like Naruto or DBZ. In that sense, of COURSE it's not that creative.

What's important to me in this show are two things: presentation and enjoyment. The presentation is very well done, which keeps me hooked on the show. Enjoyment also comes along with this, which is the MAIN reason i like this show. Not because it's something new or anything! It's something that a lot of us would want to play out in our heads... like the ideal situations where you know who the winner will be. Again, presentation is important since if you already know the outcome, you really want to see HOW it happens.
All the things in Bleach have been said and done. Hell, Bleach was almost not aired because people complained that it was too much like Yu Yu Hakasho. But which show is more enjoyable to me? Bleach, because of the presentation of characters, comedy, and plot events that hook me into the show. Another show can have the exact same plot line and characters, but if things aren't done right, the show can go down the tubes. (This may be why i like the manga better, since there are fewer factors that come into play, including music, animation, and voice acting.) It's not easy to compare shows and then explain how creative it is... but as long as the show is enjoyable, because the old elements of old shows are used WELL, then i have no problems with the show.

[acidflower]

Why the heck is PoT suddenly dragged into this and bashed? For god's sake, its Prince of Tennis. If you were looking for some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic to do a tennis shot, then you are watching the wrong anime.:bash:

PoT did one of the best job for a sports-shounen anime. Yes, you can argue how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated, but they add entertainment value. Slam Dunk was boring for me because it was no different from watching an actual basketball match. (oh wow, that guy can do a dunk, so can mr xyz on sports TV).

FYI, it wasn't PURE TENNIS. There were character interaction, a simple yet believable storyline, explanations on how using a certain "spin" cause the ball to move in this way or that.

That PoT comment/bashing was just itching for a flame post.:rolleyes:


Also, where in my post did I imply that the shots "how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated"? I just said the excitement of Tennis can only go so far. The intention of my post was not to bash PoT, but if you would like, I can start now.
My point was that the excitement of swords can only go so far, while with jutsus, anything is possible. If reiatsu could summon giant frogs, I think Bleach would also grow in popularity.

Oh yes, I'd like to see you try scoring a basket, heck I'd like to see you even attempt to hit the backboard.

edit: I'm entitled to have my opinion that I feel there is no point of watching Prince of Tennis anymore.

edit2: My english must be more incomprehensible then I thought, please tell me where I stated that I was looking for "some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic". Please reread my previous post, my post simply said that the excitement of tennis (I can only speak for myself) can only go so far.

[Thewanderer]

That's because both series are suffering from a shounen-syndrome: They can't let main characters die. Or better: They won't let them die.

Now this only leaves those two options: No progress for most of the side characters, and No appearances of the side characters
If all the characters would get equally stronger and got the same amount of screentime, the enemies should be much more powerful and greater in their number, which would even accelerate the spiral of power-ups.
Dude, they're MAIN CHARACTERS. They supposed to live. If the main chars wasn't supposed to live, they wouldn't be the main chars, now would they? And if you think the side characters aren't progressing, you need to get your eyes checked, especially during the times they devote ENTIRE EPISODES about them.
Creative- totally unexpected ending
UnCreative- Everyone lives happily ever after
Are you saying that someone has to DIE for the ending to be creative...?:twitch:

[NoSanninWa]

My point was that the excitement of swords can only go so far, while with jutsus, anything is possible. If reiatsu could summon giant frogs, I think Bleach would also grow in popularity.
It's true. I can't tell you how many times while watching Bleach I thought, "What this scene really needs is a giant frog."

I don't know why people are hung up with the idea that powers summoned from swords are inferior to powers summoned without swords. Renji summoned a giant bone snake thing and Konomura summoned a sword weilding giant. Are these inferior to frogs? Actually, I hate to mention it but isn't summoning frogs and slugs kinda silly? Giant snakes can be a bit cool, but frogs and slugs?!

(Yes, I know that the reason for frogs and slugs is because Kishimoto-sensei is copying the theme from a well known Japanese novel in which there are snake ninja, frog ninja and slug ninja. This doesn't change the fact that a giant slug is just plain silly looking instead of scary. And frogs aren't much more impressive, even when the hold a sword the size of a telephone pole.)

[Eclipze]

Also, where in my post did I imply that the shots "how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated"? I just said the excitement of Tennis can only go so far. The intention of my post was not to bash PoT, but if you would like, I can start now.
My point was that the excitement of swords can only go so far, while with jutsus, anything is possible. If reiatsu could summon giant frogs, I think Bleach would also grow in popularity.

Oh yes, I'd like to see you try scoring a basket, heck I'd like to see you even attempt to hit the backboard.

edit: I'm entitled to have my opinion that I feel there is no point of watching Prince of Tennis anymore.

edit2: My english must be more incomprehensible then I thought, please tell me where I stated that I was looking for "some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic". Please reread my previous post, my post simply said that the excitement of tennis (I can only speak for myself) can only go so far.
The thing is this: the way you said things, you expect something else that didnt involved tennis in a tennis-shounen anime. Wtf?:eyebrow:

Its really no different from saying that FMA isnt worth your time watching because the entire series is about alchemists. Or for another view, you stop watching soccer because its just X years of pure soccer. And you say its isnt worth watching because thats what they are suppose to show? I dont get what you are trying to say.:twitch:

It is alot more sensible for people to say: "I dont like PoT because I think having an anime from a sport genre is stupid" than "I stopped watching the tennis anime because after 130+ episodes, it had nothing except tennis action".

Line #2 is a self-contradictory line. You expect something more from something that is suppose to only contain one element. Oh, lets give a naruto example then:
"I stopped watching naruto after XX episodes because it was XX episodes of pure ninja-related action". :uhoh:

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, so am I. I was defending one of my fav. animes, and thats wrong I suppose?

EDIT: Ah yes, found another one: "I've stopped watching Gundam (insert series) because after XX episodes, it had nothing except gundams".

[FullMetalKid]

Bleach is Bleach and Naruto is Naruto. Never compare the 2 as they are both completely different. Ups and downs are in every anime. I say enjoy the good and the bad moments. As soon as a new series replaces either one of these later on, you would think that its not as good or compare that to something else. Creativity isn't an easy thing. If it were you be producing new anime series and everyone else be out of the job.

[The Crappinometer]

Think what you may think. Just watch and enjoy the show as it is. IF you don't like it, then don't watch it. Let's say that it lacks originality... So what then? If you enjoy watching it, then you enjoy watching it. Being creative or not doesn't really matter.

[Eclipze]

If you want to look into the roots of anime, then technically its alright to call all animes uncreative.

yes, I agree with the two above: If you like the anime: watch it. If you dont, then dont. Dont watch it and THEN bash it for being uncreative when you're the only person forcing yourself to watch.

Unless you are bonded to a chair and pointed with a gun to enjoy a series by a psycho (which is relatively impossible in context, especially if the series in question is an anime).:heh:

[acidflower]

The thing is this: the way you said things, you expect something else that didnt involved tennis in a tennis-shounen anime. Wtf?:eyebrow:

Its really no different from saying that FMA isnt worth your time watching because the entire series is about alchemists. Or for another view, you stop watching soccer because its just X years of pure soccer. And you say its isnt worth watching because thats what they are suppose to show? I dont get what you are trying to say.:twitch:

It is alot more sensible for people to say: "I dont like PoT because I think having an anime from a sport genre is stupid" than "I stopped watching the tennis anime because after 130+ episodes, it had nothing except tennis action".

Line #2 is a self-contradictory line. You expect something more from something that is suppose to only contain one element. Oh, lets give a naruto example then:
"I stopped watching naruto after XX episodes because it was XX episodes of pure ninja-related action". :uhoh:

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, so am I. I was defending one of my fav. animes, and thats wrong I suppose?

EDIT: Ah yes, found another one: "I've stopped watching Gundam (insert series) because after XX episodes, it had nothing except gundams".

Ahhh, sorry for not making my point clear enough.

Here's what I meant to say

"In the beginning of PoT, it was very interesting for me, but as I kept watching, it became more repetitve".

"I feel there is no point of watching Prince of Tennis anymore"

Also, please let me repeat what you did with my post.

Wtf!? Why is FMA all of a sudden dragged in here!? Geez! =P

[tjhan86]

The point of this thread is to argue, so sitting on the fence saying stuff like "Just watch both and make peace." isnt exactly the most productive right?

Naruto and Bleach are both shonen action, and well-made ones at that. These plus One Piece are probably the best shonen action out there for the past 2-3 years. Naruto's great for the greater depth of the fights excluding the protagonist's, while Bleach's plot twists and "cool" factor with the Zanpakutous and posing Captains draw in the fans.

Crap, I just sat on the fence. Now let me bash both by saying they could greatly be improved by adding deaths. Naruto seems to be moving towards a trend of killing off some of the side characters, while Renji should've died 2 years ago.

See, if you cannot anticipate when characters get killed, it just increases the thrill of battle. I KNOW that no matter how much blood Ichigo and Renji spills, even if it exceeds the total volume they had at first, they won't die. Granted, main characters don't die.. but surely Hinamori, Hitsugaya, Renji, Komamura shouldve been killed? Let's quote a positive example. Gantz, both anime and manga, you could feel the terror characters felt when a monster attacked. That was because a precedent was set, life in Gantz is fragile and even if you're the female lead, you could die for no particular reason. That made all the fights and battles tremendously thrilling. Compared to Renji and his "It's a good day to die" mode.

People were dissing HunterxHunter, but that series did have people dying by the truckloads. It's not like death = quality, but it does improve an ACTION series. Besides, HxH fights are handsdown the best in shonen. Anyone who thinks Naruto fights are "tactical" or "strategic" had better watch some HxH quick before they get egg on their faces. A very early example would be Gon practising his fishing skills, to prepare for the AMBUSH on Hisoka. Yes, in real battles, people practise and drill their skills, anticipate moves and plan. And that's not even a good example, cos there are tonnes of other situations where strategy was needed in HxH.

I'll end off by thanking Bleach, Naruto, OP, HxH for not being the rubbish that are Getbackers, Kyo and Rave. The latter few are the typical shonen junk that has all the negative elements that all of you mentioned that are present in shonen.

[NoSanninWa]

Crap, I just sat on the fence. Now let me bash both by saying they could greatly be improved by adding deaths. Naruto seems to be moving towards a trend of killing off some of the side characters, while Renji should've died 2 years ago.
Indeed. The possibility of death adds a tremendous edge of tension. That simple fact turned Mai-HiME into a show where I was on the edge of my seat with every single fight. I knew that anytime that they fought, someone might DIE. The show would have lost a lot of punch without it.

Heck, the feeling of inevitable death is pretty much the whole driving power of Basilisk. Without that, it would be just another Romeo and Juliette rip-off. Fear of death turns it into a truly remarkable anime.

Both Bleach and Naruto would have a lot more tension if you were worried about someone's death whenever there was a fight. Right now, you just can't feel scared because you know that they will simply get psyched until someone is too tired to continue fighting while he lies in a puddle of cranberry juice.

[DjTrizz]

Yeah, I called Bleach fights one dimensional. They're just powerups and once you see a character's shikai and bankai, it's not as captivating anymore (which is why I didn't like Renji vs Ichigo part 2 because nothing new was shown. Just some "ARGH, SOUL POWERUP!" action).


yeah and once Naruto uses Rasengan it's all over...lets see just about every non important fight its been Kage bushin no jutsu, Naruto Rendan...yeah, that's so not one dimensional :rolleyes: oh, pretty much every major fight Naruto had involved some sort of power up...so yeah :rolleyes:

Bleach fights > Naruto fights

[Eclipze]

yeah and once Naruto uses Rasengan it's all over...lets see just about every non important fight its been Kage bushin no jutsu, Naruto Rendan...yeah, that's so not one dimensional :rolleyes: oh, pretty much every major fight Naruto had involved some sort of power up...so yeah :rolleyes:

Bleach fights > Naruto fights
You should had realised by now that using only Naruto's (the character) fight as a comparision to Bleach (title of anime) fights is a stupid thing to do.

Trying using a better example with Rock Lee, Neji, Garaa, Kakashi, NOT Naruto.

Hell, If you want to compare using Naruto (the character), then compare Naruto to Ichigo's fight, who people have agreed that the standard of "power-up" is pretty much the same between the 2 main male leads.

[Eclipze]

Ahhh, sorry for not making my point clear enough.

Here's what I meant to say

"In the beginning of PoT, it was very interesting for me, but as I kept watching, it became more repetitve".

"I feel there is no point of watching Prince of Tennis anymore"

Also, please let me repeat what you did with my post.

Wtf!? Why is FMA all of a sudden dragged in here!? Geez! =P
Wait, are you trying to say that a shounen anime ISNT repetitive?

Good guys fight bad guys. In most cases, the bad guy loses, and then turns good. (classic naruto example: Garaa and gang).

After that, more bad guys come. If they belong to the group of extreem evils that are not evil for the sake of "revenge" but "power", then the good guys would kill them.

Or, somehow they have a "fight to the death" but the good guys never die (example from Naruto again: the Sasuke rescue arc).

PoT is about tennis. Someone will Always be playing tennis. Be it in a competition, or friendly game, or some "revenge" issue. Dont tell me you didnt expect that when you started to follow the anime?

Quite frankly, of all the matches in PoT shown in the anime, non of 2 matches are Identical (except for 1 match where it was INTENDED to be identical). Now, if you say the tennis action is what makes it repetitive, the same can be said for all action animes then.

Gundam - gundam vs grunt, another gundam or against a battle ship
Naruto - ninja vs ninja, or ninja vs group of ninja
Bleach - shinigami vs shinigami, shinigami vs people with special powers, sinigami vs hollows, people with special powers vs hollow.
FMA - alchemists vs bad guys.

Unless you're telling me that the scenes are reused in PoT like in GSD, then I wont blame you for using that as a reason to say that PoT is repetitive.

But wait, there are no reused scenes. So whats the "repetitive" arguement about?:eyebrow:

[acidflower]

Wait, are you trying to say that a shounen anime ISNT repetitive?

Good guys fight bad guys. In most cases, the bad guy loses, and then turns good. (classic naruto example: Garaa and gang).

After that, more bad guys come. If they belong to the group of extreem evils that are not evil for the sake of "revenge" but "power", then the good guys would kill them.

Or, somehow they have a "fight to the death" but the good guys never die (example from Naruto again: the Sasuke rescue arc).

PoT is about tennis. Someone will Always be playing tennis. Be it in a competition, or friendly game, or some "revenge" issue. Dont tell me you didnt expect that when you started to follow the anime?

Quite frankly, of all the matches in PoT shown in the anime, non of 2 matches are Identical (except for 1 match where it was INTENDED to be identical). Now, if you say the tennis action is what makes it repetitive, the same can be said for all action animes then.

Gundam - gundam vs grunt, another gundam or against a battle ship
Naruto - ninja vs ninja, or ninja vs group of ninja
Bleach - shinigami vs shinigami, shinigami vs people with special powers, sinigami vs hollows, people with special powers vs hollow.
FMA - alchemists vs bad guys.

Unless you're telling me that the scenes are reused in PoT like in GSD, then I wont blame you for using that as a reason to say that PoT is repetitive.

But wait, there are no reused scenes. So whats the "repetitive" arguement about?:eyebrow:

Why repetive, I mean watching a ball hit back and forth.

But anyways, I think this argument between you and me have gotten off topic.

Originally, I was just saying that the excitement of tennis only goes so far (for me).

Also, no, I believe shounen animes aren't always repetitive. Although its the same concept, the oppenents are different, therefore, making it more interesting. Which yes, also can be applied to tennis. But then, with tennis, you can't suddenly summon some random animals (well technically you could, but thats besides the point that any sane mangaka would do), so I'm just saying that Naruto does have more room to be creative than Bleach. I guess...

So, I'm just going to say, sure, PoT is exciting and fun to watch! Its a thrilling ride for me and I enjoy watching it!

But on a side note, (this happened in real tennis btw), during a tennis match between two players, apparently one of the tennis players was serving, but at the same time, a bird was flying nearby, which resulted in the ball hitting the bird. After, some guy walked over to see if the bird was ok, but then I guess it wasn't becauase the guy made the crossy motion when someone dies. :heh:

[Eclipze]

Why repetive, I mean watching a ball hit back and forth.

But anyways, I think this argument between you and me have gotten off topic.

Originally, I was just saying that the excitement of tennis only goes so far (for me).

Also, no, I believe shounen animes aren't always repetitive. Although its the same concept, the oppenents are different, therefore, making it more interesting. Which yes, also can be applied to tennis. But then, with tennis, you can't suddenly summon some random animals (well technically you could, but thats besides the point that any sane mangaka would do), so I'm just saying that Naruto does have more room to be creative than Bleach. I guess...

So, I'm just going to say, sure, PoT is exciting and fun to watch! Its a thrilling ride for me and I enjoy watching it!

But on a side note, (this happened in real tennis btw), during a tennis match between two players, apparently one of the tennis players was serving, but at the same time, a bird was flying nearby, which resulted in the ball hitting the bird. After, some guy walked over to see if the bird was ok, but then I guess it wasn't becauase the guy made the crossy motion when someone dies. :heh:
It was off-topic to begin with :heh:

Its a good point (finally) that its repetitive because the tennis ball is hit back and forth. But isnt it applicable to Bleach/Naruto as well?

Bleach - I cut you, you cut me! (or reworded to cutting each other back and forth)
Naruto - exchange of jutsus back and forth (I shall do rasengan, you shall return the favour with another jutsu, which just so happens to be chidori)

I would think its also because of the fact that tennis is something thats not as imaginative (In terms on how much a person would be able to imagine with it) compared to jutsus or sword-fights With Skills And Power-Ups.

Since both jutsus and sword fights WSAPU dont exist in real life, it would make for a more appealing factor for people who watch shounen animes. Also, there is no bounds as to how jutsus or sword fights WSAPU are suppose to be, compared to tennis (a sports that involves a ball, 2 rackets, 2 players and a court on most occasions excluding doubles) that has a set "example" of how it works. A Mangaka can only be this imaginative with something that exists in real life.

[ILoveGin_Jia]

I think bleach's Cartoonist 久保带人not very creative.
anyway..This kind of plot in Chinese, Japanese unusual common
But we cannot help but like Bleach actually
ぁぁ...说也奇怪呢……

[-KarumA-]

i would say that Bleach is not yet able to be compared to Naruto,

okay Naruto is much further in Episode, that also means that more things that happen over time has come to surface

if you compare Bleach manga to the anime series of Naruto i would say Bleach is much more creative, for the next season thats becomming animated is verry interesting and makes things more thrilled

the only thing that bothers me sometimes is collor use, but that doesnt mean things arent creative in story

Bleach still needs to develope in story so that the things that are already at work in Naruto such as character development etc. can also happen in Bleach

[Hiko Seijuro]

i would say that Bleach is not yet able to be compared to Naruto,

okay Naruto is much further in Episode, that also means that more things that happen over time has come to surface

if you compare Bleach manga to the anime series of Naruto i would say Bleach is much more creative, for the next season thats becomming animated is verry interesting and makes things more thrilled

the only thing that bothers me sometimes is collor use, but that doesnt mean things arent creative in story

Bleach still needs to develope in story so that the things that are already at work in Naruto such as character development etc. can also happen in Bleach

I would say there were a few things that are comparable in naruto and bleach, e.g. ichigo's fierce determination to become strong similarily naruto's dream to become hokage....unless i am wrong?

[Yûyake]

I would say there were a few things that are comparable in naruto and bleach, e.g. ichigo's fierce determination to become strong similarily naruto's dream to become hokage....unless i am wrong?
I think you are pretty right... It could even be similar to Rock Lee.. Never give up no matter what .

Anyway, For sure when you watch many anime you always end up seeing similar character or story.

[DjTrizz]

You should had realised by now that using only Naruto's (the character) fight as a comparision to Bleach (title of anime) fights is a stupid thing to do.

Trying using a better example with Rock Lee, Neji, Garaa, Kakashi, NOT Naruto.

Hell, If you want to compare using Naruto (the character), then compare Naruto to Ichigo's fight, who people have agreed that the standard of "power-up" is pretty much the same between the 2 main male leads.

okay okay, stop yelling at me! *cries in corner*

Neji...everytime it's pretty much the same thing, Byakugan and Gentle(Heavenly?) Fist, only in two of his big fights he has had he used his 360 defense move, which is still cool to see...

Rock Lee...he's actually a good fighter w/ various fighting Taijutsu, Drunk Lee is better ;D

Garaa...various sand techniques, so he's not very linear

Kakashi...various techniques as well, though he doesn't get as much screen time anymore *dammit all...* Chidori is always cool to see...but dammit I want to see him win using a different move sometimes, and yes...I know it's his finisher, I know it's the same w/ Naruto, but dammit, he's reduntant and rarely learns new moves or uses different fighting techniques -_-

Naruto is just the most linear character ever...almost as much as the entire series of YuGiOh/GX o_O

I would say there were a few things that are comparable in naruto and bleach, e.g. ichigo's fierce determination to become strong similarily naruto's dream to become hokage....unless i am wrong?

well...Naruto wants to become the strongest and be acknowledged by the whole village by becoming Hokage

Ichigo wants to just protect his friends and family, he doesn't really have any other motivation. If becoming stronger is part of the process, then so be it, but his objective still remains. (Kenpachi is the one who wants to become stronger than he currently is)

similar motives, but different objectives.

the motive and objective is subject to change but will eventually fall back to what the original was...as far as I know, Naruto's objective still hasn't changed, but he has a new objective to get Sasuke back, his motive is partly Sakura and the other is that he doesn't want Sasuke to become consumed by evil like Itachi or something like that.... Ichigo's current objective was to save Rukia, his motive was that he had a debt to repay to her, he has a new objective coming...not to sure how to say it yet cause I don't read the manga and haven't watched the new episode yet.

[NoSanninWa]

So? Isn't that just a standard convention of the genre? The hero always has a burning desire for "something" which he will use to overcome all odds. If you watch mahoushoujo, you expect to see little girls with sexy transformations and if you watch shounen you expect to see boys fight with their determination.

Examples: Bleach, Naruto, Saint Seiya, Flame of Recca, Hunter x Hunter...

Heck, all of them do this. It is certainly uncreative, but if you don't like it then why are you watching a genre that is built on this simple uncreative hook? If you don't like watching little girls transform to fight evil, don't watch anymore magical girl anime. And if you don't like watching bullheaded boys fight for their dreams, don't watch shounen fighting anime.

[Hiko Seijuro]

Whenever i watch an anime or read manga i always find myself thinking about how that particular episode or even certain words and sentences spoken reflects the certain artists intention ... or whomever was involved with the artpiece. In the case of bleach e.g. is it trying to tell us family plays a very important role in life? I think this is creative, however it does not get creative but rather tiring having to watch 20+ episodes of ichigo trying to save rukia.

[Aristophanes]

Bleach is definitely stretching it length wise lately though.

[Eclipze]

So? Isn't that just a standard convention of the genre? The hero always has a burning desire for "something" which he will use to overcome all odds. If you watch mahoushoujo, you expect to see little girls with sexy transformations and if you watch shounen you expect to see boys fight with their determination.

Examples: Bleach, Naruto, Saint Seiya, Flame of Recca, Hunter x Hunter...

Heck, all of them do this. It is certainly uncreative, but if you don't like it then why are you watching a genre that is built on this simple uncreative hook? If you don't like watching little girls transform to fight evil, don't watch anymore magical girl anime. And if you don't like watching bullheaded boys fight for their dreams, don't watch shounen fighting anime.
Quoted for truth. (*gives a cookie*)

[Uh_huh]

Boy are you ever off about Naruto. Hunter x Hunter has done what Naruto has done.

More like Naruto copied HxH since HxH was out first ... but I'm sure HxH ripped it off another manga as well. The cycle never really stops.

On topic:

I find Bleach to be more original relative to Naruto, but they both contain elements of DBZ in it (which I despise).

IMO, Bleach and Naruto are at par with one another, quality-wise (manga). But if I was to compare the animated version of Bleach vs. Naruto however, I would give it to Bleach hands down.

This is not because Naruto is showing massive fillers (Bleach will be starting this soon as well, I believe), but because Naruto has very inconsistent artwork. I remember watching one episode where the artwork looked like it was drawn by a 7yr-old.

Main reason why animes lack creativity is because hardly any artists want to take a risk and deviate from the norm. Why take a risk when you know that this method is a sure win? It's easier to make alterations to someone else's work than make a new one yourself.

[sanghyun1990]

This thread is now Naruto vs Bleach. People should really stop comarping these two, there is no reason to compare them. If you don't like it don't watch it.

[Eclipze]

This is not because Naruto is showing massive fillers (Bleach will be starting this soon as well, I believe), but because Naruto has very inconsistent artwork. I remember watching one episode where the artwork looked like it was drawn by a 7yr-old.

That true and very sad though, since it'd be much better if they had a better animator.

Lets just conclude that no animes (particularly shounen ones) are original. There are thousands of anime in existance, and Im pretty sure at least one is similar to another.

[Komataguri]

That true and very sad though, since it'd be much better if they had a better animator.

Lets just conclude that no animes (particularly shounen ones) are original. There are thousands of anime in existance, and Im pretty sure at least one is similar to another.


Consider this


How long has there been entertainment?

Not just radio, or television.

but entertianment in general.


Now imagine this, How hard is it to come up with original material, when almost everything has already been done?


Only in the rare instance will you get something original, and in all reality the original shows ain't that original, because they just twist an existing concept into an unexpected form.


Like Gundam twisting Super Robots into Real Robot Mecha Genre.



Originality is HARD to come by. The best thing to do is smile and live in ignorance, or stop watching shit period.

[Thewanderer]

I find Bleach to be more original relative to Naruto, but they both contain elements of DBZ in it (which I despise).

IMO, Bleach and Naruto are at par with one another, quality-wise (manga). But if I was to compare the animated version of Bleach vs. Naruto however, I would give it to Bleach hands down.

This is not because Naruto is showing massive fillers (Bleach will be starting this soon as well, I believe), but because Naruto has very inconsistent artwork. I remember watching one episode where the artwork looked like it was drawn by a 7yr-old.

Main reason why animes lack creativity is because hardly any artists want to take a risk and deviate from the norm. Why take a risk when you know that this method is a sure win? It's easier to make alterations to someone else's work than make a new one yourself.
Please, tell me how a high-powered fighting anime can work WITHOUT the 'elements' Naruto, DBZ, and Bleach have in common. And how episodes that wasn't in the manga are automatically labeled as fillers and disregarded as part of continuity.

I'd LOVE to listen to your ideas of a creative anime, because I DON'T even think you have one. I think you ppl are just looking for a reason to complain about something, because these arguments don't make ANY sense...

[Eclipze]

Consider this


How long has there been entertainment?

Not just radio, or television.

but entertianment in general.


Now imagine this, How hard is it to come up with original material, when almost everything has already been done?


Only in the rare instance will you get something original, and in all reality the original shows ain't that original, because they just twist an existing concept into an unexpected form.


Like Gundam twisting Super Robots into Real Robot Mecha Genre.



Originality is HARD to come by. The best thing to do is smile and live in ignorance, or stop watching shit period.
...I didnt say I condone Bleach or shounen animes, do I?:eyebrow:

I KNOW its hard to be original, but people's perspective (primitive instincts) are more of "If I haven't seen that type of anime before, its original".

I was just pointing out that you can consider all animes unoriginal, but I still watch anime and come to this forum (and not bash them in any way) aren't I? Whats the point of addressing such a reply to me, eh?:uhoh:

[DjTrizz]

when something original comes along, I'll call that person(s) a Renassaince Man ;) but seeing that hasn't happened in.......................400-500 years? I'm not placing any bets ;D

[NoSanninWa]

when something original comes along, I'll call that person(s) a Renassaince Man ;) but seeing that hasn't happened in.......................400-500 years? I'm not placing any bets ;D
William Shakespeare used up all the possible permutations of human existence before his death in 1616. Since then we have only been updating them and trying to find new angles to view them from.

Now, the essence of originality is to find something new to do with old ideas.

[Uh_huh]

Please, tell me how a high-powered fighting anime can work WITHOUT the 'elements' Naruto, DBZ, and Bleach have in common. And how episodes that wasn't in the manga are automatically labeled as fillers and disregarded as part of continuity.

I'd LOVE to listen to your ideas of a creative anime, because I DON'T even think you have one. I think you ppl are just looking for a reason to complain about something, because these arguments don't make ANY sense...

Well, I'm not hating on fillers or anything because some of them can be good, but there are others which are just total crap. I rather have the series stop and wait till the manga gets further than for the series to make some half-ass fillers.

Obviously, I'm not expecting for all the animes to not rip-off older anime series like DBZ (which paved the way for the super-powered up fighting style). But there should also be new elements to spice up the anime so it's not totally boring and predictable.

Take for example, in Naruto (or Bleach) when the character gets literally "killed" and still comes back to somehow pull off a miraculous win or is saved somehow and then gets stronger and comes back to beat the opponent. It doesn't have to be like that at all. Why can't some of the "good" guys just die? Why doesn't "evil" never conquer? I hate sappy endings. Yay, we were outnumbered 100,000:1 and we managed to win without any casualties!

I don't expect to see an anime that totally original because I'm sure (almost) everything has been done already. But I do want to see some variations in the kinds of "DBZ-like" animes. I don't care how it's done, as long as it's done.

I think Naruto and Bleach are both pretty decent mangas/animes. But they could be a lot better if they deviated a bit more.

I hope that makes "sense" to you because I don't know how else I can explain this simple concept to you.

[Komataguri]

...I didnt say I condone Bleach or shounen animes, do I?:eyebrow:

I KNOW its hard to be original, but people's perspective (primitive instincts) are more of "If I haven't seen that type of anime before, its original".

I was just pointing out that you can consider all animes unoriginal, but I still watch anime and come to this forum (and not bash them in any way) aren't I? Whats the point of addressing such a reply to me, eh?:uhoh:


Actually, I just realized I quoted you.

I ment that as a general statement to the thread.


Hit quote instead of reply, apparently :heh: :eyespin:

[Eclipze]

Take for example, in Naruto (or Bleach) when the character gets literally "killed" and still comes back to somehow pull off a miraculous win or is saved somehow and then gets stronger and comes back to beat the opponent. It doesn't have to be like that at all. Why can't some of the "good" guys just die? Why doesn't "evil" never conquer? I hate sappy endings. Yay, we were outnumbered 100,000:1 and we managed to win without any casualties!

You see, thats the basic elements for a shounen anime: good guys never die. Even if they do die, they'll be ressurected someway or another. Bad guys always loses. Either they die, or they convert to the good side.

Quite frankly, if Naruto ends with Akatsuki pwning everyone and becoming rulers of the world, people would probably rate it the worst anime of the year.

Yes, while it breaks away from the norm formula of shounen anime, its something that is not quite accepted.

Evil never conquers? Actually, in some animes, the story starts out/develops into having the evil master conquering/winning, and the the good guys as rebels, who overthrows the evil master. Hence it isn't true to say that evil has never conquered in animes (unless you mean in endings).

[Thewanderer]

Well, I'm not hating on fillers or anything because some of them can be good, but there are others which are just total crap. I rather have the series stop and wait till the manga gets further than for the series to make some half-ass fillers.

Obviously, I'm not expecting for all the animes to not rip-off older anime series like DBZ (which paved the way for the super-powered up fighting style). But there should also be new elements to spice up the anime so it's not totally boring and predictable.

Take for example, in Naruto (or Bleach) when the character gets literally "killed" and still comes back to somehow pull off a miraculous win or is saved somehow and then gets stronger and comes back to beat the opponent. It doesn't have to be like that at all. Why can't some of the "good" guys just die? Why doesn't "evil" never conquer? I hate sappy endings. Yay, we were outnumbered 100,000:1 and we managed to win without any casualties!

I don't expect to see an anime that totally original because I'm sure (almost) everything has been done already. But I do want to see some variations in the kinds of "DBZ-like" animes. I don't care how it's done, as long as it's done.

I think Naruto and Bleach are both pretty decent mangas/animes. But they could be a lot better if they deviated a bit more.

I hope that makes "sense" to you because I don't know how else I can explain this simple concept to you.
I'm not sure why you want evil to win, as it'd be the most depressing ending ever. Unless the good guys actually find out that they're wrong, and the "bad guys" are actually trying to be productive(though going about it wrong)... besides, evil ALWAYS looses in the end, even outside of shonen series.

And I'm not sure why character deaths are that interesting. I actually stopped watching an anime because my fav character died(and she only lasted a couple eps too...)

[Komataguri]

I want evil to win because I'm sick of the goodguys always being held in the limelight after the ash settles.


I want to see the heros, in the ending seen, dismembered and in pools of their own blood, as a dark overloard stands with his foot upon the head of the leader of the good guys, laughing maniacly as the screen fades to black

[Thewanderer]

I want evil to win because I'm sick of the goodguys always being held in the limelight after the ash settles.


I want to see the heros, in the ending seen, dismembered and in pools of their own blood, as a dark overloard stands with his foot upon the head of the leader of the good guys, laughing maniacly as the screen fades to black
Wow...

*filler text*

[Komataguri]

Wow...

*filler text*


Did I mention I'm dark?


Not emo, Just dark :heh:

[Thewanderer]

Did I mention I'm dark?


Not emo, Just dark :heh:
You might've forgot to mention that, yes... :p

[NoSanninWa]

Take for example, in Naruto (or Bleach) when the character gets literally "killed" and still comes back to somehow pull off a miraculous win or is saved somehow and then gets stronger and comes back to beat the opponent. It doesn't have to be like that at all. Why can't some of the "good" guys just die? Why doesn't "evil" never conquer? I hate sappy endings. Yay, we were outnumbered 100,000:1 and we managed to win without any casualties!
I'm not sure why you want evil to win, as it'd be the most depressing ending ever. Unless the good guys actually find out that they're wrong, and the "bad guys" are actually trying to be productive(though going about it wrong)... besides, evil ALWAYS looses in the end, even outside of shonen series.

He didn't mean that he wants evil to win in the end. He just meant that perhaps evil should win a battle or two on the way by managing to kill someone because otherwise it just seems that the bad guys are overhyped. If there are no consequences for fighting, then it isn't a real fight.

[Rachy]

The ending of bleach seems alot more straight foward than that of naruto though...

[Rachy]

Double post, sorry.

[Eclipze]

He didn't mean that he wants evil to win in the end. He just meant that perhaps evil should win a battle or two on the way by managing to kill someone because otherwise it just seems that the bad guys are overhyped. If there are no consequences for fighting, then it isn't a real fight.
Um...that has happened with "good" characters who are side characters.

The 3rd Hokage in Naruto got killed by Oro, so technically a good guy has "died" before. Its not that common with main characters though...

[Thewanderer]

And no, thats not a spoiler because it was shown about 1 year ago.
It is for those of us who only watches the dub...

[SuperKnuckles]

Um...that has happened with "good" characters who are side characters.

The 3rd Hokage in Naruto got killed by Oro, so technically a good guy has "died" before. Its not that common with main characters though...

And no, thats not a spoiler because it was shown about 1 year ago.

And yet such things haven't happened even once in Bleach. Even the "Mr crimes of humanity" Mayuri survived.

[Eclipze]

It is for those of us who only watches the dub...
Um, the chinese dub was shown in my country already, and I doubt the english dub is that far behind.

In fact, I remember someone stating (they watch dub) that they already watched the part where Garaa and Naruto fought. And that was about 1 month ago, on the dub NF forums.

[Rachy]

Um, the chinese dub was shown in my country already, and I doubt the english dub is that far behind.

In fact, I remember someone stating (they watch dub) that they already watched the part where Garaa and Naruto fought. And that was about 1 month ago, on the dub NF forums.

The english dub is no where near naruto vs gaara.

[pac9]

mmm for me personally, i found naruto to be very creative, but i have to admit that the ninja part wasnt very original, but i really like the way the author tweaked the usual ninja anime and made it into a very interesting and funny story. for example, the whole world that he made and the system the ninja has to go through is very unique.

on the other hand, i don't know why, bleach just didnt grab my interest. i think part of it was its storyline, it was easy to guess whats going to happen next, and the other part was the characters. they just werent very special.

i personally think naruto is more creative:p

(it's hard to stay on the subject[what's more creative] and not talk about which anime is better overall:heh: )

[Baphomet]

I agree more deaths in a series will add realism to the anime. However, its easier said than being done for the writers, especially killing off the main characters.

Lets say the writers pour in efforts to develop a main character throughout the story, suddenly he need to terminate the role of the character.

In bleach for example, some of us may think that hinamori and hitsugaya are better off dead for real rather than resurrected again. But dont forget not everyone will want them dead, especially the characters' fans.


Conclusion: No matter how the writers plot their story, there will be disatisfactions. If they being creative, conservative audience will boo them and so vice versa.

Example:
I commented on how Ichigo's fighting style as being straightforward and dull but someone else said thats how he should fight. Now you guys get the idea?

[Eclipze]

The english dub is no where near naruto vs gaara.
Fine, fine, fine...

And, has AF ever considered dubs when faced with the issues of spoilers? Only managa spoilers that Im aware of.

Of couse, I might be blind.

[SpecterVR]

Bleach does such a wonderful job with its humor, its character designs, its plotline ( I never expected to see a twist of THAT Caliber in Bleach. That was right after watching Monster 67 too, my mind was on its end for days xD). For one, Bleach may not have a very original premise, but its execution is done so amazingly well that it may as well be. I mean, seriously, you can tell the same story in a different way and make it so mind blowingly different. xD

[chucky]

William Shakespeare used up all the possible permutations of human existence before his death in 1616. Since then we have only been updating them and trying to find new angles to view them from.

Now, the essence of originality is to find something new to do with old ideas.Never meant to be a flame for what I am gonna say while it will be understandable if it is interpreted so.... but this comment really makes me wonder, sorry to say, if you have really read enough to know what you are talking about. I remember In the manga Angel Heart's front cover-flip(#17), Hojo talks about his experiences in a bookstore: two highschool rumbled around the fiction section, and one said "those books only have words and how am I gonna read it?", put down the books in her hand and left. Hojo then picked it up, reshelved it, added this comment: even I am a mangake, but people need to read books of words and not just manga!

You read Dostevsky? You read Kafka? Or in a Japanese culture-related milieu like here, You even read Oe Kenzaburo? If you try to make the case every of these authors bears the mark of Shakespeare, how about I'll make the case that Shakespeare's works just bear the mark of the Bible, the Gilgamesh, Bhagavad Gita, Sophocles and eh, hmm, whatever you name? I mean.... well, I really tried my best not to be too harsh on this, you know, since you are an admin afterall. And yes, my comment is some silly name throttling, but afterall I wonder how many serious people will chuckle reading what you wrote there.

[Uh_huh]

I love the idea that evil conquers good in the end! Adding that kind of realism to animes just hypes it up even more.

I want to mention that there are two animes that come to mind that I really enjoyed: GANTZ and X TV. I was so surprising to me that both animes killed off characters from both side and ... the protagonist in X actually dies That is what I call a good anime.

I didn't really enjoy GANTZ as much because the ending was just messed up (I wonder what the producers were smoking when they came up with that) but excluding the ending, it was amazing. When do you ever see in an anime where the ... entire supporting cast is killed off?! Never.
For those who are sick of watching sappy animes where good always triumphs evil no matter how strong and powerful the evil-doers are portrayed out to be. I highly recommend reading Death Note (there's only the manga). The protagonist (portrayed as being "evil") uses his wits to outplay his opponenets in order to mould the world into a utopia by eliminating all the "trash."

[NoSanninWa]

Never meant to be a flame for what I am gonna say while it will be understandable if it is interpreted so.... but this comment really makes me wonder, sorry to say, if you have really read enough to know what you are talking about. I remember In the manga Angel Heart's front cover-flip(#17), Hojo talks about his experiences in a bookstore: two highschool rumbled around the fiction section, and one said "those books only have words and how am I gonna read it?", put down the books in her hand and left. Hojo then picked it up, reshelved it, added this comment: even I am a mangake, but people need to read books of words and not just manga!
You read Dostevsky? You read Kafka? Or in a Japanese culture-related milieu like here, You even read Oe Kenzaburo? If you try to make the case every of these authors bears the mark of Shakespeare, how about I'll make the case that Shakespeare's works just bear the mark of the Bible, the Gilgamesh, Bhagavad Gita, Sophocles and eh, hmm, whatever you name? I mean.... well, I really tried my best not to be too harsh on this, you know, since you are an admin afterall. And yes, my comment is some silly name throttling, but afterall I wonder how many serious people will chuckle reading what you wrote there.
Shakespeare certainly did stand upon the shoulders of those who came before him. Just as those who followed stood upon his shoulders. I never meant to say that Shakespeare was the only one worth reading, nor is he the only one I have read. I merely put him forward as an example of how there is little that can be written that was not already written in one form or another. And the reason I choose Shakespeare instead of the Mahabharata (which I would have chose to mention instead of the single part which is the Bhagavad Ghita, for the sake of its scope) is because Shakespeare had greater scope of writing than anyone else. He covered a broader spectrum of the human experience, though perhaps he didn't go nearly so deeply into certain aspects of human life as Dostevsky or the Bhagavad Ghita. Sorry if you thought I meant that Shakespeare was the alpha and omega of literature, for that was not my intention.

A much more interesting discussion about creativity or its lack would be the Epic of Gilgamesh which you mention. I trust you read it? That was one of the most horribly hackneyed, stereotyped, badly written pieces of literature I have ever seen in my entire life. On the other hand, it was immensely creative. It was creative because none of these concepts had ever been written down before. It sucked badly because the writers didn't yet know how to use those concepts in a good way. It proves that creativity is over-rated if you can't refine it into a good story. While little today is creative, we have rubbed off all the rough edges and learned how to use our toolbox of ideas in such a superior fashion that even a hack writer wouldn't create something as awful as the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Yet.... the ideas in the Epic glitter like brilliant gems. I can see why they were worth preserving for 6000 years. There are some wonderful themes which the Sumerians invented. It is a shame they didn't know how to write them. Fortunately others have copied and re-copied them since then. Now that someone has had the original creative impulse, the ideas could be borrowed and turned into a magnificent story. It is fortunate that we can stand upon the creative shoulders of our forebears and occasionally create something better, if less creative.

[SpecterVR]

entire supporting cast is killed off?! Never.
Umm...One certain anime comes to mind, but I won't mention in fear of spoiling.


Theres probably a few others too, but I mean, a few charactesr, and the ENTIRE CAST is more "AGUFSDDASFG$#@)#$" than "Wow, thats suprising and riveting." So I think. xD