Chapter 210 [Manga] Discussion

[hi no ken Jebus]

Don't call me Nino

All 3 are now at their full power. The 3 arankaru ask them what is this limit release they just did. They explain that captains and vice captains are limited to only 20% of their original power. Now they are 5 times as strong. Nakim uses Sonido to get behind Matsumoto and Matsumoto tells him that they have something called shunpo which is similar to that. Histugaya says let's end this Shalong and shawlong orders a retreat but they get hit with the oncoming shinigami attacks and the chapter ends with their simultaneous defeat.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/2315/18195ng.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=18195ng.jpg)



Also the chapter is early so next bleach won't be for a while:heh:

Edit

[Daniel E.]

Is the chapter title : Dont call me Niño ?

[hi no ken Jebus]

Is the chapter title : Dont call me Niño ?


I believe that's what he was going for but the tilde doesn't show on the chapter title

[ShikaShika]

The shinigami are all unbeatable, how exciting!

[SuperKnuckles]

The series may as end now if the Shinigami truly are invincible. And I'd believe that high level captains like Ukitake and Shunsui probably won't even need a limit release.

[Daniel E.]

The series may as end now if the Shinigami truly are invincible. And I'd believe that high level captains like Ukitake and Shunsui probably won't even need a limit release.

So true. I find it extremely lame that all the bad guys are getting their asses owned one after the other. :(

[Dark`]

The series may as end now if the Shinigami truly are invincible. And I'd believe that high level captains like Ukitake and Shunsui probably won't even need a limit release.
Oh no, 3 11+ Arrancars were beaten. Now the Shinigami are invincible!

You do know that there are 10 Espadas...not to mention we don't even know if any Vastrodes have been made into Arrancars yet either. In case you've forgotten, the Vastrodes are the Menos Grandes that dwarf any Captain in terms of strength. We haven't even seen them come into play yet, but just because the Shinigami have this victory, the series is over right here, right now. >_>

[sanghyun1990]

Those arankaru are weak, they got beaten too easily. Kubo should have made them stronger.

[Souzouryoku]

I thought there wasn't supposed to be a chapter this week?

Anyway...


Grrrr...I had a feeling that they would end up winning. It was kind of obvious. I fear this is a bad omen for what is to come. I just hope Ichigo gets his ass kicked by Grimjaw. That is the only thing I really care about.

These arrancar that they were fighting were 11+, even tho they were supposed to be super, incredibly strong... I suppose it is understandable..sort of. BUT, if any of the Espada get beaten this easily, then I shall be very dissapointed.

[Shinji103]

So the weakest tier Arankall get their butts whipped and we're already calling the series lame. Jumping the gun, aren't we?

It's like Ichigo and co. in the Soul Society whipping the butts of all the lower tier Shinigami, they are the pathetic ones of the bunch. We still have yet to see the bad guys' full power.

[Sazelyt]

The two above 11 that came to check Ichigo fled after their encounter with two captains. I guess this should be an expected result. If those below-11 guys were as strong as the captains and vice-captains, the series should have ended with a complete defeat of the Shinigami, right? And, as long as you are not at that level, then you are not a match for the Shinigami captains. I believe this should be accepted as a satisfactory end to this encounter.

[Miacis]

I dunno, it was getting a little depressing seeing the shinigami being beaten so easily and viciously by Aizen in the anime the previous week or two ago. Then these lower level arrancar whip around some mid-level captains like nothing. I guess Kubo Tite is just reminding us who the real enemies are, and the lower level arrancar were just messengers.

I didn't, but I'm sure some people remembered that shinigami have their power levels lowered in the real world. Just as Renji did in his first encounter with Ichigo.

I wonder if that little girl that came and sidekicked Grimjaw (sp?) had her power lowered to 20% or not.

[Daniel E.]

So the weakest tier Arankall get their butts whipped and we're already calling the series lame. Jumping the gun, aren't we?

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters. :heh:

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way.

[SuperKnuckles]

Oh no, 3 11+ Arrancars were beaten. Now the Shinigami are invincible!

You do know that there are 10 Espadas...not to mention we don't even know if any Vastrodes have been made into Arrancars yet either. In case you've forgotten, the Vastrodes are the Menos Grandes that dwarf any Captain in terms of strength. We haven't even seen them come into play yet, but just because the Shinigami have this victory, the series is over right here, right now. >_>

I suppose that's true.

I just think it's ridiculous that Hitsugaya keeps fighting to near death then to come back again and again though. Oh wait. Same goes for Renji as well.

Maybe Ichigo just wasn't as strong as he seemed by the end of the SS angle.. Which sorta doesn't make sense since he beat Kenpachi and Byakuya when they were at full strength..

[Sazelyt]

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters. :heh:

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way. Some shocks might result in the end of the series. Was there another logical result you were expecting in this encounter, regarding those low-level bad guys compared to (vice-)captains?

Maybe Ichigo just wasn't as strong as he seemed by the end of the SS angle.. Which sorta doesn't make sense since he beat Kenpachi and Byakuya when they were at full strength.. I couldn't get what you said. What is the reasoning behind the comparison of Ichigo's strength after the last chapter?

[Dark`]

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters. :heh:

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way.
Bleach has been around for 210, but not the Arrancar. They've been around for like...around 20 chapters, give or take a few. Calling the series lame after seeing 3 of the 11 and up Arrancar being beat does qualify as "jumping the gun" to me.

And yeah, I agree, a little bit of shock could go a long way. However, with the way the Arrancars were toying with the Shinigami before they got their limits lifted, I could hardly call their (the Arrancar's) victory a "shock" if it had happened.

[ShikaShika]

Oh no, 3 11+ Arrancars were beaten. Now the Shinigami are invincible!

You do know that there are 10 Espadas...not to mention we don't even know if any Vastrodes have been made into Arrancars yet either. In case you've forgotten, the Vastrodes are the Menos Grandes that dwarf any Captain in terms of strength. We haven't even seen them come into play yet, but just because the Shinigami have this victory, the series is over right here, right now. >_>

I don't care, they might as well have skipped these fights if it was just going to be a meaningless display off shinigami power. From a storyline point of view you need to create some tension by making the bad guys look intimidating. Even if these guys were relatively low level, it still makes Aizen & Co look stupid. If only Grimjaw (I know it's not the official spelling) would take on all the remaining shinigami and win, then I might be a bit excited again.

I just feel that these fights were all meaningless... Why do we need to be introduced to such cannonfodder at all, what did they really add to the storyline? I feel like I've just been reading filler. Bleh.

[SuperKnuckles]

I couldn't get what you said. What is the reasoning behind the comparison of Ichigo's strength after the last chapter?

It's because while Ichigo was more or less struggling with relatively weak Arankars (except for Grimjaw), all the other captains and vice-captains dealt with them relatively easily after the lifting of power restrictions.

I would think that Ichigo would have been easily able to dispose of several Arankars by himself if Hitsugaya and Ikkaku can.

I don't know.. I'm a bit confused as to Ichigo's situation in all this as well.

[Sazelyt]

I don't care, they might as well have skipped these fights if it was just going to be a meaningless display off shinigami power. From a storyline point of view you need to create some tension by making the bad guys look intimidating. Even if these guys were relatively low level, it still makes Aizen & Co look stupid. If only Grimjaw (I know it's not the official spelling) would take on all the remaining shinigami and win, then I might be a bit excited again.

I just feel that these fights were all meaningless... Why do we need to be introduced to such cannonfodder at all, what did they really add to the storyline? I feel like I've just been reading filler. Bleh. You can also call Ichigo's low level fights at the beginning as fillers, do they actually have any effect on his power-up?

It's because while Ichigo was more or less struggling with relatively weak Arankars (except for Grimjaw), all the other captains and vice-captains dealt with them relatively easily after the lifting of power restrictions.

I would think that Ichigo would have been easily able to dispose of several Arankars by himself if Hitsugaya and Ikkaku can.

I don't know.. I'm a bit confused as to Ichigo's situation in all this as well.
I believe those weak Arankars you mentioned were the two that appeared first right? I might be wrong, but weren't those also around Grimjaw's level?

[Daniel E.]

Some shocks might result in the end of the series. Was there another logical result you were expecting in this encounter, regarding those low-level bad guys compared to (vice-)captains?

Well, try to see things from a different point of view then.

After 210 chapters, we have yet to see a lot of Shinigamis in action. Some of them have done so little, that you actually need to check a character guide just to remember their names.

IMHO, having a lot of characters in a show is a fatal flaw, because it's doesn't allow proper development of several characters in any show; not just in Bleach.

[hi no ken Jebus]

:heh: I don't quite understand some of you. A few weeks back some were crying bloody murder when the arankaru had the upper hand with stuff like "oh noes kubo made them too powerful and they will have to go dbz with power ups and etc..."
Now the coin is flipped and now it's "oh noes these guys are waaaay too powerful":heh:. Now if you didn't see this coming after Shawlong brought up the Espadas I don't know what to tell you.

That bit of information was the last nail in their coffin and the end of the arankaru explanations/showcasing. If this had been Grimmjow who just got his ass handed to him then I can say some of the complaints are justified. However Shawlong mentioned they are low tier and nothing compared to the Espadas. So how about we just wait and see what the 6th strongest espada can do before we light the torches and get our pitchforks?

[Dark`]

I don't care, they might as well have skipped these fights if it was just going to be a meaningless display off shinigami power. From a storyline point of view you need to create some tension by making the bad guys look intimidating. Even if these guys were relatively low level, it still makes Aizen & Co look stupid. If only Grimjaw (I know it's not the official spelling) would take on all the remaining shinigami and win, then I might be a bit excited again.
So...as someone else said, should all of Ichigo's fights in Soul Society (vs Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi and Byakuya) have been skipped too, since they were "meaingless" displays of Ichigo's power? He is the main character after all and thus, under the unwritten rule of shounen anime, he must be the strongest character.

And you said it yourself, if they were low level...if they were low level, why would it make Aizen & Co. look stupid? They were low level, and if you recall, Aizen had nothing to do with them coming to the real world. They followed the orders of Grimjaw to come to the human world and cause chaos. True, Aizen created them using the power of the Hougyoku. Well then, why not mention the Grand Fisher? He was an Arrancar, albeit a terribly incomplete one, and was beaten by Isshin and an unreleased Zanpakutou. By your standards, the series should've ended there, if not earlier.

I just feel that these fights were all meaningless... Why do we need to be introduced to such cannonfodder at all, what did they really add to the storyline? I feel like I've just been reading filler. Bleh.
Why yes, of course. ALL the fights were meaningless. The fact that we were shown Rukia's Shikai was meaningless. Ikkaku's Bankai, Ururu's hidden strength and potentially the meaning of the petals that accompany Hitsugaya's Bankai. We also learn how Arrancars release their Zanpakutous, and the hierarchy of the Arrancars (11+ are in the order they were created, 1-10 are called Espadas and have the highest destructive capabilities). So...all the things I mentioned above, which were revealed during the fights...added completely nothing to the storyline huh? Well, I'd have to disagree with you there. Yeah, in the end it was kind of pathetic how easily the Arrancar were beaten. But meaningless? Wasted? Filler? I disagree.

Edit: Add-on.

It's because while Ichigo was more or less struggling with relatively weak Arankars (except for Grimjaw), all the other captains and vice-captains dealt with them relatively easily after the lifting of power restrictions.

I would think that Ichigo would have been easily able to dispose of several Arankars by himself if Hitsugaya and Ikkaku can.

I don't know.. I'm a bit confused as to Ichigo's situation in all this as well.
I don't really see how. In terms of Arrancar, he only fought Yamii. And he was doing incredibly well against him until he saw Yamii's Zanpakutou. At that point, he started to hesitate because he was trying to figure out what they were. He thought they may have been the same as himself and Hirako, and it was at this point where it seemed that his Hollow half tried to resurface. So at this point Ichigo is struggling...in a way, even fighting himself, in order to keep his Hollow side from taking control. Thus, he makes an easy target for Yamii.

The two above 11 that came to check Ichigo fled after their encounter with two captains. I guess this should be an expected result. If those below-11 guys were as strong as the captains and vice-captains, the series should have ended with a complete defeat of the Shinigami, right? And, as long as you are not at that level, then you are not a match for the Shinigami captains. I believe this should be accepted as a satisfactory end to this encounter.
I don't think we ever really got any kind of evidence that proves Yamii and Ulquiorra are Espadas. Remember, when he returned, Aizen said "Now, come and relate the fruits of your expedition...to your twenty brothers.". Thusly, we can't be sure if they are Espadas since we never saw any number tattooed on them, and they were never mentioned later on to be Espadas. However, due to a certain picture from chapter 209, I'd say one of the silhouettes shown does resemble Ulquiorra. So I'd be willingly to concede that Ulquiorra could be an Espada (it also explains why Yamii was listening to his orders), but I doubt Yamii was one.

[Mizuno]

Lame. One moment they seemed worthy, the next they got owned by vice captains. And there I thought Ikkaku was anything special, he was fighting with full power.

[Sazelyt]

Well, try to see things from a different point of view then.

After 210 chapters, we have yet to see a lot of Shinigamis in action. Some of them have done so little, that you actually need to check a character guide just to remember their names.

IMHO, having a lot of characters in a show is a fatal flaw, because it's doesn't allow proper development of several characters in any show; not just in Bleach. The story is written from Ichigo's point of view. Only people that are related to him or his development are introduced. Since we do not have a tournament kind of thing, it is not that easy to show every little thing about the not-so-much related characters. It would take the focus off from the main story line. Even for the Shinigamis that we are shown, they are not unlimited in power or options of using their powers. Bankai is their peak, and we are shown quite a lot on that. I don't think we need more on that.

Also, the organizations the story deals are large organizations with many power levels (a shinigami world, arankar world, etc., making them small would not be a wise choice - would not help in Ichigo's development at all). The high number of characters is inevitable in such a story. And trying to give more on every character would kill the flow of the story. Currently, this is how I see.

I don't think we ever really got any kind of evidence that proves Yamii and Ulquiorra are Espadas. Remember, when he returned, Aizen said "Now, come and relate the fruits of your expedition...to your twenty brothers.". Thusly, we can't be sure if they are Espadas since we never saw any number tattooed on them, and they were never mentioned later on to be Espadas. However, due to a certain picture from chapter 209, I'd say one of the silhouettes shown does resemble Ulquiorra. So I'd be willingly to concede that Ulquiorra could be an Espada (it also explains why Yamii was listening to his orders), but I doubt Yamii was one. I haven't checked previous chapters to see why I thought like that. But, one of the reasons might be Ulquiora (the intelligent one) to be wise enough to be included among the strongest one. Secondly, if I'd like to test someone, I want to send someone I trust. It is better to select someone special rather than some ordinary ones (compared to the special ones). For Yami, there is a high chance that he is at a lower level compared to Ulqiorra. But, if Ichigo didn't have such unexpected unstable condition at the moment, he wouldn't have any difficulty against Yami. Anyway, I will check later the previous chapters on that.

[Daniel E.]

Bleach has been around for 210, but not the Arrancar. They've been around for like...around 20 chapters, give or take a few. Calling the series lame after seeing 3 of the 11 and up Arrancar being beat does qualify as "jumping the gun" to me.

However, my comment was meant to cover the whole series, not just the recent battles.

But please dont get my wrong, even if I mention that Bleach has shown some 'lamenes' recently, I still enjoy watching it. I just dont follow the idea that says:

"I love this show and because of that, I am never gonna complain about anything in it"

Again, I am not saying is wrong to like everything that Bleach has to offer. In the end, this is just my opinion.

Also, the organizations the story deals are large organizations with many power levels (a shinigami world, arankar world, etc., making them small would not be a wise choice - would not help in Ichigo's development at all). The high number of characters is inevitable in such a story. And trying to give more on every character would kill the flow of the story. Currently, this is how I see.

Totally agree.

Like I just said, too many characters was a mistake from the start.

[Shinji103]

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters. :heh:

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way.Gee I didn't know the Arankall fight was going on for 210 chapters. Or maybe I'm talking about the fact that this is only the first of several Arankall fights to come, against the weaker tier Arankall, and people are already saying "the series shoud just end here"... :heh:

[Daniel E.]

Gee I didn't know the Arankall fight was going on for 210 chapters. Or maybe I'm talking about the fact that this is only the first of several Arankall fights to come, against the weaker tier Arankall, and people are already saying "the series shoud just end here"... :heh:

I think I already answered this on my previous post. ;)

Like I already said, this is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree !!!

[Dark`]

However, my comment was meant to cover the whole series, not just the recent battles.

But please dont get my wrong, even if I mention that Bleach has shown some 'lamenes' recently, I still enjoy watching it. I just dont follow the idea that says:

"I love this show and because of that, I am never gonna complain about anything in it"

Again, I am not saying is wrong to like everything that Bleach has to offer. In the end, this is just my opinion.
I still don't quite get what you're trying to say. You said, and I quote:

Jumping the gun you say? ........ after 210 chapters.

I am not saying that the bad guys should win or that they should kill someone everyweek. But after all this time, a little bit of 'shock' could go a long way.

My interpretation of your statement is that you're calling the series 'lame' due to the fact that the bad guys aren't winning enough. Well...I want you to define to me what is a "bad guy" exactly.

At the start of the series, the basic antagonists were the Hollows. To me, they're basically the same as all those zombies of pre-RE4. Dumb and one good shot to the head and it's game over for them. You could hardly root for them...to me anyways. At least, not until we see one that showed some semblance of intelligence (in my opinion, the first true antagonist I felt you could really get behind would be the Grand Fisher...though the one who forced the kid's soul into the parakeet was pretty detestable).

After that...it was what? Byakuya, Renji and the rest of the Shinigami for trying to execute Rukia? I wouldn't really call them antagonists (even before we found out about Aizen's manipulation)...they were merely following orders, and really, I just felt it was a difference of opinions. No true bad guy in this case...to me anyways.

The first "true" antagonist, in my opinion, would be Aizen & Co. They manipulated all of Soul Society in order to get what they wanted. Though the fighting continues, you can hardly say that the end of the first "skirmish", if you will, was a notch in the belts of the Shinigami/protagonists. If anything, it was a victory for Aizen & Co.

Then, we see the appearance of the Arrancar. Yamii gets owned by Yoruichi, but only after thoroughly thrashing Chad and practically beheading Orohime with a vicious backhand. Then the new Arrancar enter and they too lose, but not before inflicting some damage (albeit, the Shinigami were held to roughly 20% of their power).

In terms of counting overall victories (I'm talking about whole skirmishes, not counting each individual battle), it's tied 1-1 (1.5-1 at the most, imho). The antagonists (Aizen & Co) scored a victory by obtaining Hougyoku and escaping Soul Society, while the protagonists (Ichigo & Co) scored a victory by pushing back Yamii and Ulquiorra (mainly Yamii). I suppose you can count the current skirmish as a victory (half victory to me, Grimjaw's still in prime fighting form) for the protagonists, so at most it'd be 2-1 (I still think it's more like 1-1 or 1.5-1). I don't see how the antagonists/bad guys aren't winning enough to make things interesting, when there really haven't been that many skirmishes for the antagonists to really win.

However, just as you said that was your opinion, this is mine. I will not try to force my opinion on you, nor do I think I am one of those "I love this show and because of that, I am never gonna complain about anything in it". I just simply think that, in the context of this chapter, the result is not earth-shattering, and isn't nearly as bad (END OF THE SERIES!!!!1!11!!one) as some make it out to be. I'm not singing the praises of it, but I don't think it's that bad either.

[Lackadaisical]

I'm just throwing this out here but does anyone else think the last ten chapters have been shown just to showcase the power of the real villians: the 1-10 numbers?

First the Allankar with numbers above ten prove to be too strong for the main characters. As such, when the characters go full power and win the victory seems important. Had the characters won from the start without ever being in any danger the Allankar would seem ridiculously weak as villians.

Now the characters release their power and defeat the Allankar easily. The Allankars, from their early advance, have proven themselves to be strong; just not as strong as the main characters.

The shinigami have proven themselves to be impressively strong by defeating the extremely dangerous Allankar.

Now these strong shinigami run into a member of the top ten Allankar and get crushed, wouldn't that make Grimmjow and his companions even more credible and dangerous as villians than if the shinigami barely beat the above ten Allankar before losing to Grimmjow?

As it is, the battles and victories so far seem entirely devoted to showcasing a few underrepresented characters and revealing how dangerous the true villians are.

Of course, this idea relies on Grimmjow winning, but that seems assured.

[Daniel E.]

My interpretation of your statement is that you're calling the series 'lame' due to the fact that the bad guys aren't winning enough. Well...I want you to define to me what is a "bad guy" exactly.

The good guys can win all the battles they want. My point from the very beginning is that I found strange (and lame) how the good guys always manage to survive in the end.

If there were only a few characters it would make some sense, but with dozens of shinigamis around, it would be kinda strange to see them all standing in the end.

Anyway...............

Let's see if things get more interesting down the road.

[Dark`]

The good guys can win all the battles they want. My point from the very beginning is that I found strange (and lame) how the good guys always manage to survive in the end.
Well again, this seems to be an ongoing thing with shounen animes. Naruto, One Piece, Flame of Recca...and to an extent Dragonball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho. The last two are somewhat different (in DBZ you could be brought back to life via wishes, and in YYH the main character did die, but that was only the beginning of things to come). So...it's not really just Bleach that's doing that. Yeah, I'll admit, it's lame, but as for me, I've somewhat gotten used to it. It doesn't even really seem to phase me anymore.

If there were only a few characters it would make some sense, but with dozens of shinigamis around, it would be kinda strange to see them all standing in the end.

Anyway...............

Let's see if things get more interesting down the road.
As you said, in the end. Well, this is [most likely] far from the end my friend. Also, we are again talking about, for the most part, the Captains and Vice-Captains, the cream of the crop of Soul Society. I mean, if I saw some no name guy that Chad beat back in the Soul Society arc somehow surviving an attack from an Arrancar, I'd be outraged as well. But the Captains and Vice-Captains represent the 26 best (well, less than that now due to the defection of Aizen, Tousen and Gin), and as such, I can see them all standing [for the time being] against this group of Arrancar. We'll see. Hopefully, Kubo will do something differently when more Espadas, and maybe some Vastrodes, get introduced.

[ShikaShika]

So...as someone else said, should all of Ichigo's fights in Soul Society (vs Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi and Byakuya) have been skipped too, since they were "meaingless" displays of Ichigo's power? He is the main character after all and thus, under the unwritten rule of shounen anime, he must be the strongest character.

Those fights displayed how Ichigo's power developed, and how it developed during the fights as well. These fights didn't show us anything except the fact that the 11+ arrankars(sp?) aren't worthy opponents. Ok, so we got to see a new bankai and shikai, but couldn't this have waited until the inevitable fight against the somewhat decent enemies. I'm not saying these fights should have been skipped, just that the opponants could have been changed to some more powerful characters.

I just think it would have been a better choice to not add these worthless characters, going directly to enemies that might have stood a chance instead. At this point in the arc KT needs to make the enemy look strong and intimidating. I'm not asking for any shinigamis to be killed, but if the arrankars could have at least escaped instead of being squashed like bugs it would have added some tension to the story. But lets wait and see what Grimjaw can do. (Beginning to think Ichigo will kill him easily at this rate.)

There's been some comparisons to earlier plot developments in response to my posts, and lets just state for the record that while I sort of enjoy reading Bleach, it's certainly not one of the best shounen mangas I've read. I'm not saying it was much better back then, but it sure as hell isn't getting any better.

I hate being negative, and if you guys are enjoying this, then that's fine, but I'm clearly not the only one that found this last move by KT a bit questionable.

[carb]

well this was certainly fast and easy.. i was expecting something a bit more flare, especially from hitsuagaya.

btw anyone noticed, why does hitsugaya have that line in the middle of his face? :twitch:

[Kona]

The two above 11 that came to check Ichigo fled after their encounter with two captains. I guess this should be an expected result. If those below-11 guys were as strong as the captains and vice-captains, the series should have ended with a complete defeat of the Shinigami, right? And, as long as you are not at that level, then you are not a match for the Shinigami captains. I believe this should be accepted as a satisfactory end to this encounter.

Yama isnt a espada.. hes very weak

I don't care, they might as well have skipped these fights if it was just going to be a meaningless display off shinigami power. From a storyline point of view you need to create some tension by making the bad guys look intimidating. Even if these guys were relatively low level, it still makes Aizen & Co look stupid. If only Grimjaw (I know it's not the official spelling) would take on all the remaining shinigami and win, then I might be a bit excited again.

I just feel that these fights were all meaningless... Why do we need to be introduced to such cannonfodder at all, what did they really add to the storyline? I feel like I've just been reading filler. Bleh.

How are these fights pointless? It was grimmjaw who wanted to check out ichigo cause ulq didnt kill him and he has the authority over 11+ so thats enough reason to fight...

I'm just throwing this out here but does anyone else think the last ten chapters have been shown just to showcase the power of the real villians: the 1-10 numbers?

First the Allankar with numbers above ten prove to be too strong for the main characters. As such, when the characters go full power and win the victory seems important. Had the characters won from the start without ever being in any danger the Allankar would seem ridiculously weak as villians.

Now the characters release their power and defeat the Allankar easily. The Allankars, from their early advance, have proven themselves to be strong; just not as strong as the main characters.

The shinigami have proven themselves to be impressively strong by defeating the extremely dangerous Allankar.

Now these strong shinigami run into a member of the top ten Allankar and get crushed, wouldn't that make Grimmjow and his companions even more credible and dangerous as villians than if the shinigami barely beat the above ten Allankar before losing to Grimmjow?

As it is, the battles and victories so far seem entirely devoted to showcasing a few underrepresented characters and revealing how dangerous the true villians are.

Of course, this idea relies on Grimmjow winning, but that seems assured.

Well renji,hitsugaya and rangiku are bottom barrel and 11+ arent that strong. Yea the espada isnt something to be fooling around with. I dont expect ichigo winning at all.. he doesnt have full control of his hollow and noname has urges to come out when he releases bankai.. Most likely i see somebody saving the day.. (vizard please? we havent seen them for a long time.. perfect time for a come back.)

[Sazelyt]

Those fights displayed how Ichigo's power developed, and how it developed during the fights as well. These fights didn't show us anything except the fact that the 11+ arrankars(sp?) aren't worthy opponents. Ok, so we got to see a new bankai and shikai, but couldn't this have waited until the inevitable fight against the somewhat decent enemies. I'm not saying these fights should have been skipped, just that the opponants could have been changed to some more powerful characters.

I just think it would have been a better choice to not add these worthless characters, going directly to enemies that might have stood a chance instead. At this point in the arc KT needs to make the enemy look strong and intimidating. I'm not asking for any shinigamis to be killed, but if the arrankars could have at least escaped instead of being squashed like bugs it would have added some tension to the story. But lets wait and see what Grimjaw can do. (Beginning to think Ichigo will kill him easily at this rate.)

There's been some comparisons to earlier plot developments in response to my posts, and lets just state for the record that while I sort of enjoy reading Bleach, it's certainly not one of the best shounen mangas I've read. I'm not saying it was much better back then, but it sure as hell isn't getting any better.

I hate being negative, and if you guys are enjoying this, then that's fine, but I'm clearly not the only one that found this last move by KT a bit questionable.
Let us assume that Grimjaw is around captain's level. And instead of sending the worthless opponents, all the above 11 level guys were sent to the world. Now, imagine what would have happened..

Without any early information on the opponents, all the Shinigami guys that were sent to the world would have been killed - in addition to Ichigo - maybe, despite the power up. After that, including Aizen-Gin-and the blind guy, and all the above-11 level guys were sent to Soul Society together with all the powerful hollows. End of Bleach with the bad guys win. Unfortunately, I don't see any other way around.

The current fights will allow both sides measure the level of the other side - without significant loss to any side. Both sides will be forced to determine ways to fight against the powerful opponents. Maybe Soul Society will search ways to call back other captain level Shinigami's in the world. We only know three of them. Maybe there are more. The power level difference in the case of Arancars is very different. Can you imagine what the power level for the ones in the next level will be? Instead of reaching the result too soon, these fights will allow both sides to prepare for the future big fight.

[SuperKnuckles]

Surely the Arankars will boast by saying stuff like "we didn't need them anyway".

Then look at the situation and how all the Shinigami more or less come out of the whole thing alive and well. While a whole slew of Arankars were killed off for good.

Still not a fair situation. I think a lot of the complaint recently comes from how the battles have been going radically one way or the other. It was just like a showcase of fighting techniques (which isn't bad), but it also resulted in there not being any real struggles.

I suppose we'll only see them happen when Ichigo fights.

[Blaster]

Well if 11+ Arrancars are too strong, then the 10 Espadas could have taken out the whole of SS. This is reasonable. I don't want a situation where an enemy is far too strong(Akatsuki), and fans will later complain how easy it is to beat the strong enemies.

About the chapter, I still don't understand how Matsumoto's zanpaktou works. I know it has resemblance to Byakuya's one but it the things that attack aren't the same.

[Dark Lord Zenigame]

That's the reasoning that I'd use, but there's also the idea that you'd want to make your strongest, most trusted troops have the upgrade before the others, just in case something goes wrong...

In the end, there's good reasoning for either way. ^_^;;

[Novarain]

Let's just see the result of Ichigo vs Grimmjow. An espada vs probable the best Shinigami/Hollow hybrid ever created. I think Ichigo might win but he'll also take a helluva beating himself. Or maybe Isshin might just decide to reveal himself to Ichigo and save his ass...

[Wolcik]

ok, few post are two long to read now, so I just write what I want to say...
it's sad that they won that easly when it could be some nice fighting instead, but...
1)Arrancar was probably to all Hollow's that was turrned (GrandFisher too),
2)Espada (sp?) is something much stronger.
3)Aizen still can make something stronger than nr 1 Espada (sp?) and call it diffrent,
4)Aizen can just kick some ass by himself,
5)Aizan can make Gin or himself stronger.

as for numering... there were 1,2,3..10, but probably were destroyed some time ago or
when there was somebody stronger than 10 than 10 become 11 ( 19=>10, 10=>11 11=>12 12=>13 ... 18=>19).
and GF would be something like 4 or even not Hyouka (sp?) thing made Arrancar :P

[Kinny Riddle]

In an earlier manga volume, Renji already explained about captain and lietenant class shinigamis powers being limited up to 80% to reduce the potential damage they may cause in the living world.

So it's hardly surprising those 3 Arrancars got their arses whipped after underestimating the enemy, thinking that's all they got, as usual with manga enemy minions. Their main purpose is probably to test the shinigami's strength and collect battle data for the remaining Espadas.

For every shonen series, there'll always be people who aren't satisfied, and maybe justifiably so. In Naruto, the battles are "too slow", in Bleach, the battles are "too quick", either the good guys are too strong, or the bad guys are. The authors can't please everyone. A tough job indeed, having to pan out the storyline AND draw at the same time. Fanfic writers have it easier.

For those who say this fight is meaningless, might as well say all the Hollow-busting by Ichigo early in the series are meaningless. I'm just glad it doesn't get dragged out too long like Naruto, whoever the victor is.

btw anyone noticed, why does hitsugaya have that line in the middle of his face?

I've also noticed, maybe one of Hyourinmaru's side effects?

[Wolcik]

I've also noticed, maybe one of Hyourinmaru's side effects?
he probably was covered in snow or ice when in full power :D

[Kinny Riddle]

Now that I think about it, it's really unfortunate that the complaints have overshadowed something quite significant...

THAT RENJI HAS FINALLY WON!!!

This should really be a time to celebrate, not complain. :heh: :heh: :heh:
Just kidding, KT can't please everyone, as I said earlier. People were moaning and lamenting on when Renji will ever win, and he gives them a New Year's gift, and he got barrage of complaints saying Renji won too easily. The guy needs a break. :D

[Dark`]

Really? I can't remember seeing a silhouette with a hole in the throat.
True, but when he first arrived, we never saw the hole in his throat until he pulled his zipper down, now did we? In the picture, he could very well have his zipper all the way up. However, the mask on his head is quite recognizable...at least in my opinion. That's how I "identified" him in that picture. Like I said, it looks like it could be him, not that it is him. :p

BTW, isn't this numbering a bit stupid? They explained, that they are numbered in the order, they were created. Now if you were Aizen, and you had a new tool. Wouldn't you start with some low level hollow, to get used to the Hougyoku? Just in case something goes wrong?
Well...there was the Grand Fisher. :p But all that aside, as I've mentioned, they have seemingly yet to introduce Ajucas or Vastrodes. From that assumption, it's unlikely that the current bunch of Arrancars are exactly top-tier in the hierarchy of Hollows. I mean, I won't say that they're exactly bottom-of-the-barrel type guys, but it seems reasonable to assume that they're not the strongest. Low/mid level seems about appropriate for them (the exception being Grimmjow).

[Illuyankas]

I think we have all forgotten something very important...

Renji... WON. Madness!

Edit: Great, missed. By hours, even. Damn you, alcohol.

[Kona]

Really? I can't remember seeing a silhouette with a hole in the throat.

Check the espada pic again. The pictures arent the best looking (Look at grimmjow) but to the left of him is def ulq (Horn on right side facing us, and the hole near throat)

[gghochu]

ok the bald headed freak almost dies even with bankai, without his powers limited since he is not a captain/vice C against i forgot the number arrancar BUT a guy like red hair tattoo and Double Ds could take out the arrancar so easily.... AND Double Ds' Arrancar didnt even release his true form... WTF

apparently the bald head is heavily, incredibly, significantly, astronomically weaker then red hair tattoo and double ds and even Rukia (even though the other arrancar call that joker mouth arrancar a failure but still...) which too me doesnt make any sense

[1.0.7.]

people forget that this is the first wave of arrankarus..
the one before was just a scout mission.
i'm anticipating the next few chapters..the aftermath of all this. for one thing, the effect of the limit being lifted on normal people and how it will affect future battles. the other thing is, aizen now knows the limitations of his creations, how he will strengthen his army i don't know.
and of course..i wanna see ichigo get owned by an espada (assuming :p).. i hope this will prompt uruhara & co. to help out as well.

[ritalman]

Lol I want to see Grimjaw vs Ichigo, Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Renji and Yumichika while Rukia and Ikkaku recover.

Will the espada take care of his 5 opponents? mmmh

[D-Technolife]

Well, i guess the win was at the very least "great!" for renji!! who won his first victory!! hurray for renji!!! now his not a loser anymore!! wakeekek

[Illuyankas]

I thought the line on Hitsu's face was a cut from his opponent? Not so pretty anymore...

[MrHahn]

Why is there a nagging feeling in my head that this would look much much more spectacular when they animate this sequence.

Also, notice the good guy's tendancy to get cocky, saying that it's all over when it genuinetly IS all over. Beats the bad guys' version of things.

Also, one last thing, wtf does Haineko do?

[Souzouryoku]

That's what I've been wondering. Though, for some reason I remember it breaking up into ash particles, or something like that. We never did see the end of her fight with Kira, so I don't think there is anyway of knowing.

We need some more Matsu action :D!

EDIT: Just looked under the Zanpakutou guide on Bleach Portal.

haineko is in the same group as Senbon Zakura in that it's Shikai form is pretty much invisible. With the trip-phrase "Unare!" (Growl!) from Morimoto, Haineko's blade puffs into a cloud of smoke. What that smoke does.... we don't know. Yet.

[Biswa]

I dont understand why there are any complaints at all. Three things were fixed well in this chapter.
1. Not all arrankar are extremely powerful... the only ones to worry about are the espada, and there are TEN of them. That really limits the amount of enemies... that makes things a LOT simpler, i think. I don't think it'd be really great if they had like 100 enemies stronger than them. The captains and vice-captains are supposed to be the most powerfuls spirits in the world before the arrankar!! There's no such thing as "winning too easily." I'm surprised they took this much damage.
2. Ikkaku wasn't limited, so he fought with all his strength. So that fixes part of a plot hole... so his bankai is actually pretty weak and he fought a relatively weak guy too. He's strong, but only at a borderline of captain and vice-captain. Probably not one for the 11th division, though. Just other divisions.
3. Renji won. Phew, things would be getting pretty ridiculous if he's losing to the weaker leveled arrankar.

So this kinda also shows that Ichigo is still pretty strong. He is not be limited, but i think the other unlimited like Hitsugaya would still have a tough-time fighting Grimmjow. Ichigo was able to easily slice off the big guy's arm (the one with Uroquilla, forgot the name), so im sure that he's stronger than these other guys. This information shows that Ichigo is the strongest of the group, still.
It's not that the the shinigami became reallly strong, but it's because the arrankar were relatively weak. There has been a reduction of possible threats in the series, but they still have like 13 people to worry about, including the espada, Aizen, Tousen, and Gin. That's a lot! Thankfully the lower arrankar are no longer a problem, so the focus can change. (This series would be wayyy too long if all of the arrankar on earth were stronger than captains).

Whoops, one more question... so does this mean Rukia was limited or not? :P We still don't know her rank... i dont think she was a vice-captain. Must be 3rd seat then...

[Anh_Minh]

Maybe Rukia still isn't a seated officer. The captain vacancies must have hurt SS badly, but other than that, I don't think promoting people was all that urgent. All things considered.

[Dark`]

Rukia is not a Vice-Captain. If you recall an earlier chapter (too lazy to pull up which exact chapter), the soul that inhabited Rukia's gigai while she dealt with the Arrancar mentioned how Rukia was strong enough to be seated as a V-C, but due to Byakuya's wishes, she was kept from obtaining a seat.

1. Not all arrankar are extremely powerful... the only ones to worry about are the espada, and there are TEN of them. That really limits the amount of enemies... that makes things a LOT simpler, i think. I don't think it'd be really great if they had like 100 enemies stronger than them. The captains and vice-captains are supposed to be the most powerfuls spirits in the world before the arrankar!! There's no such thing as "winning too easily." I'm surprised they took this much damage.
Incorrect. According to Hitsugaya, there are 3 kinds of Menos Grande. The third kind, Vastrodes, are stronger than any Captain. And they apparently were in existence long before this talk of Arrancars.

[Kona]

Rukia is not a Vice-Captain. If you recall an earlier chapter (too lazy to pull up which exact chapter), the soul that inhabited Rukia's gigai while she dealt with the Arrancar mentioned how Rukia was strong enough to be seated as a V-C, but due to Byakuya's wishes, she was kept from obtaining a seat.

Theres no proof of that. And byakuya not wanted her to be seated is the past. With all these events done.. she is most likely the vc of 13th div. I mean her not saying her rank is a little fishy and... I dont see anybody else taking the VC spot unless those two boneheads (too weak) or they make up another character to fill the spot. Droy would atleast be VC level even though he was weak and the rest of the buds were captain lvl but.. i hope shes the VC atleast making another person taking it is a bit lame..

[propa03]

Theres no proof of that. And byakuya not wanted her to be seated is the past. With all these events done.. she is most likely the vc of 13th div. I mean her not saying her rank is a little fishy and... I dont see anybody else taking the VC spot unless those two boneheads (too weak) or they make up another character to fill the spot. Droy would atleast be VC level even though he was weak and the rest of the buds were captain lvl but.. i hope shes the VC atleast making another person taking it is a bit lame..

How would it be lame if one of the people who were 'officially' qualified for the position (seated officers) was to take the position. And I wouldn't comment on the power of those 'two boneheads'. There's no telling how strong they are, and apparently, both were qualified to take the VC spot...

Please, please, please let some Vaizards show up soon! Let the other shinigamis take a break after their fights, and bring on the reserve team! Apparently there is no love lost between them and Aizen's company, they just aren't sided directly with the shinigami. So it would be perfect for them to help Ichigo run off Grimjaw, especially if they let their hollows out!

[Kona]

How would it be lame if one of the people who were 'officially' qualified for the position (seated officers) was to take the position. And I wouldn't comment on the power of those 'two boneheads'. There's no telling how strong they are, and apparently, both were qualified to take the VC spot...

Incorrect, Its 3rd seat not VC.

[propa03]

Incorrect, Its 3rd seat not VC.

IIRC, both were basically occupying the 3rd seat. Neither had been promoted to VC after the the death of Shiba Kaien, but both were technically qualified for that position. That is what I understood the situation to be.

[Dark`]

Theres no proof of that. And byakuya not wanted her to be seated is the past. With all these events done.. she is most likely the vc of 13th div. I mean her not saying her rank is a little fishy and... I dont see anybody else taking the VC spot unless those two boneheads (too weak) or they make up another character to fill the spot. Droy would atleast be VC level even though he was weak and the rest of the buds were captain lvl but.. i hope shes the VC atleast making another person taking it is a bit lame..
As you said, most likely the Vice-Captain. However, just as you say there's no proof of Rukia not being the Vice-Captain, there's also no proof of Rukia being the Vice-Captain. But in the conversation, the Konpaku mentions that at present, Rukia possesses the ability to become a seated officer, but it never said that Rukia is a seated officer. Furthermore, Byakuya didn't really seem to care about Rukia at all until after the whole Aizen deal, so it's not unreasonable to assume that Byakuya made the request afterwards, not in the past.

You may think Rukia's a VC, and that's fine with me, that's your opinion. However, my opinion is that she isn't, and you post does little to convince me otherwise (not saying that was the purpose of your post, it's just a statement).

[Hellychan]

Please, please, please let some Vaizards show up soon! Let the other shinigamis take a break after their fights, and bring on the reserve team! Apparently there is no love lost between them and Aizen's company, they just aren't sided directly with the shinigami. So it would be perfect for them to help Ichigo run off Grimjaw, especially if they let their hollows out!

Hoho! I'd like it to happen :D

But in the conversation, the Konpaku mentions that at present, Rukia possesses the ability to become a seated officer, but it never said that Rukia is a seated officer. Furthermore, Byakuya didn't really seem to care about Rukia at all until after the whole Aizen deal, so it's not unreasonable to assume that Byakuya made the request afterwards, not in the past.


Hmm...I read that Rukia has always had the ability to become a seated officer (Chapter 202), but as this position may lead to many dangers, Byakuya arranged with the other captains that Rukia will never get a promotion (in order to protect her). Well, now that Rukia knows the truth about Byakuya, maybe she convinced him that she can handle the dangers :D

[Wolcik]

did u know that everytime Ichigo is going to meet somebody stronger than him he meets 6th division guy :D (Byakuya and now GrimJaw)... maybe GrimJaw will escape when rest of shinigami will come and than in future after Ichigo beat GrimJaw, Aizen will slash him again and escape to hell instead :D and new arc will begin :D
so Hitsugaya told Ichigo that if Aizen got 10 strong ones than SS is over? we thought that he had 20, but he really have 10 acording to what 11th said :D so SS is doomed :D
in SS there is only 10 (+Renji) capitans and if 3 capitans with 10 escapada or whatever is the strongest would come, 3 capitans would be enough to deal with
11 VC :D ... I dunno how to count it, but without Ichigo going to super training again and going to Hollow's world with few friends (will he take his Quincy friend :P )...
when the rest of shinigamies that are in the living world come to Grim and Ichi, like I said, GrimJaw will run or smash everybody to be beaten by Ichi-hollow or Vizored or whoever wants to step in to the game ;D

[Dark`]

so Hitsugaya told Ichigo that if Aizen got 10 strong ones than SS is over? we thought that he had 20, but he really have 10 acording to what 11th said :D so SS is doomed :D
Actually, what Hitsugaya said exactly was that if there exists over 10 Vastrodes, then Soul Society is doomed. Vastrodes are, with provisions, different altogether from Espadas. Vastrodes are pure Hollows, while Espadas are Hollow/Shinigami hybrids. Also, it was never at all mentioned how strong Espadas are in comparison to Vastrodes, so Soul Society might not be doomed quite yet. (It is possible that some Espadas were created from Vastrodes, but we don't have any evidence of that yet, so it's all speculation.)

[Illuyankas]

I want to see Hollow-Ichigo come out, beat Grimmjoww enough for him to flee screaming, then go on a rampage that the Vaizard have to stop, unless they want Urahara/Yoruuichi/Isshin to kill him (should be the only way to stop him then). They then 'appropriate Ichigo, and teach him to at least control his hollow better. Then we can get on with the rest of the story.

[DrunkenRyder]

Instead of Ichigo mastering his hollow, I'd rather see him fight him. HMMMM! I smell final battle...

[carb]

Actually, what Hitsugaya said exactly was that if there exists over 10 Vastrodes, then Soul Society is doomed. Vastrodes are, with provisions, different altogether from Espadas. Vastrodes are pure Hollows, while Espadas are Hollow/Shinigami hybrids. Also, it was never at all mentioned how strong Espadas are in comparison to Vastrodes, so Soul Society might not be doomed quite yet. (It is possible that some Espadas were created from Vastrodes, but we don't have any evidence of that yet, so it's all speculation.)

yes it is true that hitsugaya mentioned 10 vastrodes, but he did however said also that in order to posses power(removing their masks) they(arankals) must become stronger than the menos, not just menos grande but menos in general, and that includes vastrodes.

But not to fret because Hitsugaya made that assumption excluding the ryokas. Plus he doesn't know first hand yet how powerful and how much powerful can ichigo be.

[carb]

So yeah, pretty much thats it. I do not know if hitsugaya included Yamamoto in his "Captain" definition, since it has been clearly shown that yamamoto is above the ordinary captain level - atleast that's to my speculation.

[grss1982]

Now that I think about it, it's really unfortunate that the complaints have overshadowed something quite significant...

THAT RENJI HAS FINALLY WON!!!

This should really be a time to celebrate, not complain. :heh: :heh: :heh:
Just kidding, KT can't please everyone, as I said earlier. People were moaning and lamenting on when Renji will ever win, and he gives them a New Year's gift, and he got barrage of complaints saying Renji won too easily. The guy needs a break. :D

Not to mention that this is:

HITSUGAYA's FIRST WIN since the ass whipping he got from AIZEN!!! :D

[Dark`]

yes it is true that hitsugaya mentioned 10 vastrodes, but he did however said also that in order to posses power(removing their masks) they(arankals) must become stronger than the menos, not just menos grande but menos in general, and that includes vastrodes.
Well...I'm going by other people's translations...so I can't personally vouch for its accuracy, but based on the translation I have, this is what Hitsugaya said:

It is true that Arankarus are Hollows who have removed their masks. The problem is, even if Hollows take off their masks, there isn't much they can initially do. Especially if they truly wish to fight Soul Society. In order to achieve their aim, Arankarus must somehow become stronger than any Menos.

Hitsugaya said that the Arrancar must become stronger than any Menos in order to achieve their goal of fighting Soul Society. He never specifically said that all Arrancar are already stronger than any Menos.

[1.0.7.]

i think a common misconception is that every arrankaru is a vastrode..
a vastrode and an arrankaru is completely different
take it like this: an arrankaru is not necessarily a vastrode, while a vastrode can turn into an arrankaru.
my guess is, the ultimate being aizen is trying to make is turning a vastrode into an arrankaru.. since a vastrode is more powerful than any one captain, it still has a limit.. in order to surpass the limit, aizen must want to turn the vastrode into an arrankaru.. do the maths, and that means a hollow exponentially stronger than any one captain (including aizen perhaps?)
i don't think the arrankarus so far were (are?) vastrodes, they must've been grand fisher level type hollow before they broke their masks.
grr..damn this episode.. and i was looking forward to what rangiku san's zanpuktou could do.. or did i miss that?

[Wolcik]

Actually, what Hitsugaya said exactly was that if there exists over 10 Vastrodes, then Soul Society is doomed. Vastrodes are, with provisions, different altogether from Espadas. Vastrodes are pure Hollows, while Espadas are Hollow/Shinigami hybrids. Also, it was never at all mentioned how strong Espadas are in comparison to Vastrodes, so Soul Society might not be doomed quite yet. (It is possible that some Espadas were created from Vastrodes, but we don't have any evidence of that yet, so it's all speculation.)
i think a common misconception is that every arrankaru is a vastrode..
a vastrode and an arrankaru is completely different
take it like this: an arrankaru is not necessarily a vastrode, while a vastrode can turn into an arrankaru.
my guess is, the ultimate being aizen is trying to make is turning a vastrode into an arrankaru.. since a vastrode is more powerful than any one captain, it still has a limit.. in order to surpass the limit, aizen must want to turn the vastrode into an arrankaru.. do the maths, and that means a hollow exponentially stronger than any one captain (including aizen perhaps?)
i don't think the arrankarus so far were (are?) vastrodes, they must've been grand fisher level type hollow before they broke their masks.
grr..damn this episode.. and i was looking forward to what rangiku san's zanpuktou could do.. or did i miss that?
what I thought at the begining that when GF become arrankaru he wasn't Menos before, and that thing that attacked Uryuu, as for me was a Menos Grande changed into a arrankaru, and that's why it didn't speek (or maybe weaker hollow from below Menos)...
but we don't know does something like MenosGrande could supprass Vastorade after transformation... I think that Espadas aren't strong as Vastorades and we'll see another crazy name and deffinition for it. Maybe Aizen wants to trun Vastorades and himself, Gin and whoever he wants just after he master the whole thing...
but we are still to see how does GrimJaw shikai looks, and did all Arrankaru died or maybe 1 can escape :D

[carb]

i think a common misconception is that every arrankaru is a vastrode..
a vastrode and an arrankaru is completely different
take it like this: an arrankaru is not necessarily a vastrode, while a vastrode can turn into an arrankaru.
my guess is, the ultimate being aizen is trying to make is turning a vastrode into an arrankaru.. since a vastrode is more powerful than any one captain, it still has a limit.. in order to surpass the limit, aizen must want to turn the vastrode into an arrankaru.. do the maths, and that means a hollow exponentially stronger than any one captain (including aizen perhaps?)
i don't think the arrankarus so far were (are?) vastrodes, they must've been grand fisher level type hollow before they broke their masks.
grr..damn this episode.. and i was looking forward to what rangiku san's zanpuktou could do.. or did i miss that?

interesting point there.. the 10 espadas must have been vastrodes b4 they were transformed; this makes sense since the 10 espadas matches what hitsugaya said about 10 vastrodes being able to destroy SS.. only this time, its the espadas who'll do the job

[shadowsoul]

seeing how aizen was a captain. shouldn't the arrancars know things about shinigamis like how vice and captain level shinigamis would have their power reduced as not to affect the living world. Seems like Aizen should be informing his subordinates what to expect from the enemy

[Wolcik]

it's strange, but how Aizen could let that happen?
GrimJaw suppose to be one of his best tropps and he lets him do whatever he wants and take anybody he wants to do it...
or Aizen is too afraid (like hell he is), or he doesn't care about him (a child that doesn't care is his old toys are broken or not)
so if he is afraid he could keep most informations for himself, and if he doesn't care than why the hell he should tell everything to his creations when he is going to make better ones so the "informed ones" will no longer need to live, or even win meaningless battles :D

[DrunkenRyder]

Vastrode - Most Likely the highest on the food chain of hollows

I think Aizen sent those 11 and up arrancars to deal with the captains/vc's so the real threat (GrimJaw) can either defeat ichigo/ experiment without interuptions. But hopefully we will no in the next issue. Does anyone know Ch 211's Title?

Edit: Did the two firts Arrancar ever shown (The guy who pulled his eye out) and the guy who tore off chads arm, Did they tell there numbers?

[Dark`]

Edit: Did the two firts Arrancar ever shown (The guy who pulled his eye out) and the guy who tore off chads arm, Did they tell there numbers?
Ulquiorra and Yamii. And no, it was never shown what number either of them were, though based on a picture in one of the later chapters (around 207ish?), there's a silhouette that looks an awful lot like Ulquiorra (the guy who pulled his eye out).

[DrunkenRyder]

Well then these guys must atleast be espada.

[animedow]

In my opinion the purpose of these 'low-level' arankar showing up and fighting is first of all, to show the organisation structure of the arankar, second, the arankar shikai, and third, to make the concept clear that captain/vice-captain level shinigami are stronger than those 11+ aranker.

Now as for Grimmjow attacking, that was because he got annoyed with Ulqiuorra not finishing off Ichigo. As I recall, he isn't acting on any orders given by Aizen, he just wants to have some fun and took some arankar with him. Also he wants to finish what Ulquiorra didn't.

Ulquiorra is likely to be an espade, even if the hole in his chest/throat doesn't fit the silhoutte panel seen in chapter 209. Perspective might be the cause of that, or Kubo slightly changing the design.
Why would Ulquiorra be an Esapada? Well first of all he was sent out by Aizen to check out how strong Ichigo was. Now, Aizen knows Ichigo beat Byakuya and has achieved Bankai, so he should know that he is at least moderately strong. Therefore Aizen will probably sent out a scout from which he will get at least some sort of reply, and not just the notion 'he died on the job', as to know how strong Ichigo really is. That would suggest that Aizen would sent an Espada to get some results. And so Ulquiorra is an Espada.
Also Yamii obeys Ulquiorra. As we now know only the Espada have the power to order 11+ arankar around, and I'm pretty certain Yamii is just another 11+'er. Normal Bankai Ichigo was able to chop of Yamii's arm, but Ulquiorra wasn't fazed at all, neither is Grimmjow in 209 (or 210).
When Hollow Ichigo started to emerge the story was different though. Ulquiorra even stating that Ichigo periodically showed a power stronger than his own. But then again we haven't seen Ulquiorra's shikai, yet.


As for how the story develops from here onwards, only Kubo can tell. But I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Vaizards will step in pretty soon to either take Ichigo away, (and/) or train him to control his hollow.

[Biswa]

How should Aizen know, that Ichigo has achieved Bankai? He never heard Ichigo call "Bankai". All he knew was that Ichigo was attacking him with a black sword, but this could also have been Ichigo's Shikai. Even Byakuya didn't believe it was Ichigo's Bankai, and from Aizen's point of view (who hasn't even seen Ichigo's real Shikai before) it's more likly to assume it's the Shikai.
Of course that's the situation before sending Yami and Ulquiorra... during their visit Ichigo clearly called "Bankai", so now Aizen should know it.

But didn't Uroquilla already know that Ichigo had bankai? He did say that he knew Ichigo achieved bankai in a very short period. He probably got that information from Aizen, who already knew that Ichigo had achieved bankai in a short time. He is the one who most likely relayed this information to Uroquilla. Therefore, Aizen knew he was being attacked by a bankai.

[animedow]

How would Byakuya be defeated by a mere ryoka using only a shikai? A ryoka for that matter who has only been a shinigami for a very short time (from the moment he got out of the hollow pit he was a true shinigami).

[Dark`]

How would Byakuya be defeated by a mere ryoka using only a shikai?
The same way that Kenpachi got defeated by a mere ryoka using only a Shikai? (For the record, I know Kenpachi and Byakuya are quite different in fighting styles and whatnot...I just couldn't resist though...)

[Mousuke]

OMG! Renji "won" a fight!

[Souzouryoku]

OMG! Renji "won" a fight!

Meh...about time, huh? :p I was beginning to think he'd never win a fight, but I had faith in Kubo :D Though, sadly, the fight he ended up winning wasn't a very exciting one. Well, it was exciting, but we didn't get much detail about it.

[carb]

How should Aizen know, that Ichigo has achieved Bankai? He never heard Ichigo call "Bankai". All he knew was that Ichigo was attacking him with a black sword, but this could also have been Ichigo's Shikai. Even Byakuya didn't believe it was Ichigo's Bankai, and from Aizen's point of view (who hasn't even seen Ichigo's real Shikai before) it's more likly to assume it's the Shikai.
Of course that's the situation before sending Yami and Ulquiorra... during their visit Ichigo clearly called "Bankai", so now Aizen should know it.

a captain should know whether a reiatsu is a bankai reiatsu or not. Byakuya said it himself b4 ichigo released his bankai. I think it went something like this, " Why is he releasing this amount of reiatsu...it is as if he is..." and then when he finally released it, pan to hitsugaya and rangiku being shocked.

for me this pretty much sums it up how aizen knew ichigo had bankai even b4 yami came

[Wolcik]

did Aizen know that Ichigo beat Byakuya?

if Aizen was thinking that Ichigo had shikai while fighing him (as his reiatsu was lowered due injures) he wasn't supprise that he was holding the same sword after fatal injury... to hold bankai even when almost split in a half - that's something... and when Aizen've seen Ichigo calling bankai and using it more like a hollow than any shinigami (transformating himself) he might think that he needs more time or something, but GrimJaw went on his own...
Uroquilla was rather strong as he stopped bear handed Urahara's full realised shikai's atack :P I think that's something :D

[DrunkenRyder]

In my opinion the purpose of these 'low-level' arankar showing up and fighting is first of all, to show the organisation structure of the arankar, second, the arankar shikai, and third, to make the concept clear that captain/vice-captain level shinigami are stronger than those 11+ aranker.

Now as for Grimmjow attacking, that was because he got annoyed with Ulqiuorra not finishing off Ichigo. As I recall, he isn't acting on any orders given by Aizen, he just wants to have some fun and took some arankar with him. Also he wants to finish what Ulquiorra didn't.

Ulquiorra is likely to be an espade, even if the hole in his chest/throat doesn't fit the silhoutte panel seen in chapter 209. Perspective might be the cause of that, or Kubo slightly changing the design.
Why would Ulquiorra be an Esapada? Well first of all he was sent out by Aizen to check out how strong Ichigo was. Now, Aizen knows Ichigo beat Byakuya and has achieved Bankai, so he should know that he is at least moderately strong. Therefore Aizen will probably sent out a scout from which he will get at least some sort of reply, and not just the notion 'he died on the job', as to know how strong Ichigo really is. That would suggest that Aizen would sent an Espada to get some results. And so Ulquiorra is an Espada.
Also Yamii obeys Ulquiorra. As we now know only the Espada have the power to order 11+ arankar around, and I'm pretty certain Yamii is just another 11+'er. Normal Bankai Ichigo was able to chop of Yamii's arm, but Ulquiorra wasn't fazed at all, neither is Grimmjow in 209 (or 210).
When Hollow Ichigo started to emerge the story was different though. Ulquiorra even stating that Ichigo periodically showed a power stronger than his own. But then again we haven't seen Ulquiorra's shikai, yet.


As for how the story develops from here onwards, only Kubo can tell. But I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Vaizards will step in pretty soon to either take Ichigo away, (and/) or train him to control his hollow.

Why does Ichigo have to control his "hollow", even though is it really his hollow? It's basically a person itself. And Instead of mastering "it" why can't he seperate from it, and have a fight with it, I would look forward to it. Even the slim time he first fought it (during the kenpachi fight). That was awesome, F mastering, I wanna see a fight..

[Wolcik]

when I saw Hollow-Ichgo for the first time in Zaraki's fight I though that every shinigami can go to his world and fight himself to get stronger :heh:

[Kona]

Why does Ichigo have to control his "hollow", even though is it really his hollow? It's basically a person itself. And Instead of mastering "it" why can't he seperate from it, and have a fight with it, I would look forward to it. Even the slim time he first fought it (during the kenpachi fight). That was awesome, F mastering, I wanna see a fight..

If he doesnt control noname, it would go on a rampage and kill everything in sight and even ichigos friends. And he needs it for the future fights, no way in hell he can win without his hollow side. If they split up ichigo wont have that hollow power which he needs.

[DrunkenRyder]

If he doesnt control noname, it would go on a rampage and kill everything in sight and even ichigos friends. And he needs it for the future fights, no way in hell he can win without his hollow side. If they split up ichigo wont have that hollow power which he needs.

But how can he control it?.....

Ichigo: Listen..man I don't like what youve been doing..

Noname: Wow..I didn't know you felt that way...sorry..damn

Ichigo: No..No Im just saying..you know, you didnt ask to take over me, you just do it out of nowhere...I mean what if Im having sex, and you just take over...

Noname: Wow..I guess I never saw it like that...ok lets work together and woop ass.

[Wolcik]

But how can he control it?.....

Ichigo: Listen..man I don't like what youve been doing..

Noname: Wow..I didn't know you felt that way...sorry..damn

Ichigo: No..No Im just saying..you know, you didnt ask to take over me, you just do it out of nowhere...I mean what if Im having sex, and you just take over...

Noname: Wow..I guess I never saw it like that...ok lets work together and woop ass.
bwuhahahaha... add some mad hollow-ichogo laughing that I love so much and it might work :D

but what did 11th said about 0 o'clock or something like that (don't remember what hour) maybe GrimJaw will withdraw now or something :D or maybe Aizen will know about them missing just now as they should meet again :D

[Kona]

But how can he control it?.....

Ichigo: Listen..man I don't like what youve been doing..

Noname: Wow..I didn't know you felt that way...sorry..damn

Ichigo: No..No Im just saying..you know, you didnt ask to take over me, you just do it out of nowhere...I mean what if Im having sex, and you just take over...

Noname: Wow..I guess I never saw it like that...ok lets work together and woop ass.

lol. He can control it if he has some common sense and try to get along with it and being friends :uhoh: . If he didnt try to take off the mast every time he trys and get out that could lead to trusting each other but you know noname is crazy :uhoh: . Or he can go to the vizards and learn how to control it or beat him in his inner world.

[U<3Anime]

Yea, i like the idea how ichigo beats his hollow to control. Something like how he gets back his zangetsu in the kenpachi fight. Then ichigo will be able to use the hollow powers and take control himself. : )

[Kaka]

may I ask why is there no new chapter coming out since last week >_>;?

[acidflower]

may I ask why is there no new chapter coming out since last week >_>;?

"Also this is a double issue so no chapter for next week."

From the chapter 209 thread.

Please search carefully before asking questions that are already answered.

[Kaka]

"Also this is a double issue so no chapter for next week."

From the chapter 209 thread.

Please search carefully before asking questions that are already answered.
I did see that when 209 was out 3 weeks ago

so I am curious why I don't see new chapter even in this week >_>;;;;

[Souzouryoku]

"Also this is a double issue so no chapter for next week."

From the chapter 209 thread.

Please search carefully before asking questions that are already answered.

There is a chapter this week.

EDIT: Rawr, I've been tricked? :p BAH...it was a fake chapter o.O *sigh*

[hi no ken Jebus]

There was suppose to be a holiday break in between 209 (issue 4-5) and 210 (issue 6-7). Through the magic of the internet ch 210 was put out a little earlier than it should (the issue 6-7 went on sale 1/7). Next jump issue no. 8 doesn't go on sale until 1/23. Unless lightning strikes twice I wouldn't expect it till next week.

[ritalman]

I still didn't get the "double issue" thing.
It was as long as usual...
What is "double issue" supposed to mean?

[Dark Lord Zenigame]

It means that the issue is supposed to be counted as for two weeeks instead of just one. For example, the magazine will be labeled "2-3" instead of just "2" when this happens. Jump does this about five or so times a year, probably to give its mangaka a break.

[Kaka]

There was suppose to be a holiday break in between 209 (issue 4-5) and 210 (issue 6-7). Through the magic of the internet ch 210 was put out a little earlier than it should (the issue 6-7 went on sale 1/7). Next jump issue no. 8 doesn't go on sale until 1/23. Unless lightning strikes twice I wouldn't expect it till next week.
oh...........ic......o_O
omg, so that's like 2 more weeks for the next chapter ?

It means that the issue is supposed to be counted as for two weeeks instead of just one. For example, the magazine will be labeled "2-3" instead of just "2" when this happens. Jump does this about five or so times a year, probably to give its mangaka a break.
LOL
I completely misunderstood it when I first saw that word
I thought it meant "one magazine with 2 chapters of bleach" or something XDDD
so when 209 was out I was like "wait a minute, i only see 1 chapter!" :heh:

[ritalman]

Oh ok, I thought it was something like the special double episodes in the anime.

My bad. thanks for the clarification.

[Wolcik]

Hej! Do we know how strong Kukkaku is? maybe she's strong as Yoruichi and can train Ganju to this level too :D Shiba clan could beat Ishida family :P

[Kona]

Hej! Do we know how strong Kukkaku is? maybe she's strong as Yoruichi and can train Ganju to this level too :D Shiba clan could beat Ishida family :P

We dont really know but she isnt just a weakling. To be head of a clan you need to be strong. And im a believer she has a shikai.. and i think she knows kidou hmm.. Im interested in her. More to her that her you know what :D .

[Dark`]

We dont really know but she isnt just a weakling. To be head of a clan you need to be strong. And im a believer she has a shikai.. and i think she knows kidou hmm.. Im interested in her. More to her that her you know what :D .
She's not a Shinigami, so it's highly unlikely she would have a Shikai, simply because she wouldn't have a Zanpakutou. However, she does seem to have some knowledge in the ways of Kidou (evident in how she blasted away one of the 4 gatekeepers in the manga, and she used it on Aizen in the anime).

[Wolcik]

both Ganju and Kukkaku have swords that can hurt shinigami so it must be Zanpaktou, but we don't know about their shikai yet :P
porbably the only person that use magic and not kidou is Orihime :P

[Kona]

How is kukkakus kidou different from gotei 13? Honestly, i see no difference at all.Well if you saying its gotei 13 only then she must of been a shinigami. It doesnt make sense carrying an empty sword to cut up people if its not a soul slayer.You cant damage anything because soul slayers hurt other spirits .You dont necessarly have to be in gotei 13 to know name of your sword. Hitsugaya already materialized the name of his sword so you dont have to be a shinigami to know shikai (Might be wrong).

[The Small One]

How is kukkakus kidou different from gotei 13? Honestly, i see no difference at all.
The difference is, that Kuukaku isn't a Shinigami!

Not everyone in Soul Society, who has a bit of spiritual powers is a Shinigami, even if this person is carrying a sword.

[Kona]

The difference is, that Kuukaku isn't a Shinigami!

Not everyone in Soul Society, who has a bit of spiritual powers is a Shinigami, even if this person is carrying a sword.

Obviously, Even if you have little spiritual power. How did she all of a sudden do a kidou that is something you need to be in gotei 13 for? KT better do some explaining to do. Theres no reason to carry a sword if it isnt going to harm anything. That what a soul slayer is for, not having one and carrying one is utterly pointless and no meaning.

[Desti-Fate]

The difference is, that Kuukaku isn't a Shinigami!

Not everyone in Soul Society, who has a bit of spiritual powers is a Shinigami, even if this person is carrying a sword.
I think being an Official Boner-fide Shinigami comes from graduation of the academy and placement in the Gotei 13 and doesn't necessarily mean that Shinigami are some kind of completely seperate species from the Rukongai-ites.

Kuukaku mightn't have been a Shinigami but she had the same powers as one. She was a noble and knows Kidou (perhaps home-brew, rather than the official stuff- but Kidou nonetheless) surely it's very likely she has a zanpakuto?

Besides, I think it was said that spirits can only be hurt by spirit force, so carrying a regular sword would be futile.

[Desti-Fate]

I'd forgotten about the seperate spirit threads... However if Kuukaku was a noble in Soul Society, it stands to reason that like Yoruichi, she is a shinigami. After they are nobles *because* they are considered the best shinigami.

I'll accept that shinigami can be hurt by non-zanpauktos, but still think that Kuukaku has one.

And I'm not trying to going against the accepted truth here, since there isn't one.

[Kona]

Where was it said, that the spell she used was a Gotei 13 one?


IMHO this only applies to the real world... in Soul Society everything is made out of spirit particles and can hurt or kill the Souls. If "only a Zanpakutou can hurt Shinigamis" would also apply in Soul Society,they would have searched for Aizen's supposed murderer between their own ranks from the start.


Besides it's not me, who has to disprove the theory of Kuukaku beeing a Shinigami. The one bringing up a new theory has to find proofs to substantiate it. And so far there is no valid reason to believe Kuukaku is a Shinigami:
Beeing able to use some sort of Kidou seems to be something everyone with a little spirit power can do (remember Rukia in the slums?). And a sword isn't necessarily a Zanpakutou.

There isnt but knowing kidou isnt a regular noble person. Very slim chance of her making that kidou up. Well i dont see many outsiders knowing kidou at all. What im saying is its pointless to carry a sword like that if it isnt a soul slayer. Yes, a sword isnt necessarily a soul slayer but very pointless to carry it around if you can t do anything with it.

[MobiuS]

I think its the same technique as a Shinigami, just different name or something ...

Remember when the Hollows did SHinpou ...? It was a completely different name, but relatively the same technique nonetheless.

[Illuyankas]

Something else I noticed, Renji's bankai seems to have a blasty attack thing, that blew off the horn of his arrancar. So it's not just a big heifer of a sword, it's a big wiggly cannon! Which is an improvement, to be sure.

[NoSanninWa]

Obviously, Even if you have little spiritual power. How did she all of a sudden do a kidou that is something you need to be in gotei 13 for? KT better do some explaining to do. Theres no reason to carry a sword if it isnt going to harm anything. That what a soul slayer is for, not having one and carrying one is utterly pointless and no meaning.
Nobody ever said that a zanpaktou is the only sort of spirit enhanced sword that is capable of harming hollows, shinigami and other spiritual beings. It is clear that there are a lot of strange spritual powers which aren't shinigami abilities. I'm willing to believe that someone else might be able to use a sword or sword-like power to harm souls.

[Wolcik]

I think that Orihime and Chad has their power more like hollow style than shinigami, and if maintaining ur special power'd be like awaking ur souls potential that is normaly awaken during Hollow transformation, so this diffrent Kidou like Ganju's would be it, but Kukkaku said clear that she uses Kidou...

Ken-chan is from outside too and he has a sword that is Zanpaktou, so he wasn't a shinigami like people he was fighting with...
so where's said that only Shinigami can use Zanpaktou? maybe only shinigami can change their zanpaktou with Shikai and Bankai, but what was Ikkaku using against Ken-chan in his first fight against him? if it wasn't scene change than there is Hoozukimaru changing back to broken Zanpaktou...

and if Ganju unsealed his Zanpaktou and come to story at some point even if just to fight unnumered Arrankuru? there might be a fight where there will be too many of them so they must be taken out by somebody else than team that will be fighting the best ones :D

[animedow]

Kuukaku's clan is a former noble clan. Why they got kicked out of the inner city escaped my mind at the moment (or hasn't been explained yet, I can't remember and I don't want to look it up). So it would be obvious that members of that clan know kidou. All clans keep scrolls for self teaching, etc, so even if Kuukaku didn't go to shinigami school she still could've learned those kidou.

As for Kaien saying he grew up in the slums, didn't Rukia grew up in the slums as well? Now I hear you say 'yeah, but she was adopted into the Kuchiki noble clan. So she isn't related to Byakuya by blood'. True, but she still calls Byakuya her brother. The same logic could be applied to Kuukaku's clan. Kaien got adopted, and like one big family he gets called brother. It was never stated that Kaien, Kuukaku, and Ganju, were, or were not, related by blood.

On the point of shinigami being a breed of souls, I don't think so. Shinigami are souls that are send out into the real world to put the wandering souls to rest. That's essentially it. So it's more like a job or profession. Shinigami keep the world in balance (explained in one of the very first chapters by Rukia). However only certain souls can perform this profession, souls that have a rare and special power. The Gotei13 scout this power among souls in Rukongai and train these 'special' souls to become shinigami. Nothing more, nothing less. And this makes it perfectly possible for genius' to attain a zanpakutou, or even a shikai, while they are untrained by ShinigamiUniversity.

[propa03]

It' not a matter of opinions. They are different. Their soul threads are red! When Ichigo first became a Shinigami, Ishida immediately knew, because Ichigo's soul had changed.
Sometimes it really frustrates me, how people willingly ignore clearly stated facts for a discussion.

Actually, you just brought up the point yourself. He noticed that Ichigo's thread had changed. Which means that being a shinigami has to be the potential inherent in souls with high spiritual power. Thanks for proving his point yourself.

[brightredglow]

Just out of curiosity: Where in the manga (what chapter) did Kaien say that he grew up in the slums?

If I recall correctly, I thought it was Kotsubaki who told Rukia that he (Kotsubaki) came from the alley just like she did. I don't recall where Kaien said he came from the slums but please correct me if I remember this wrong.

As far as I could understand from the manga, the Shibas may be a "fallen" nobel house, but they are still highly regarded. Kuukaku has the twins who can be considered her retainers of sorts. And the reaction that Jidanbou has to her also indicates that Kuukaku has social rank above those of the alley.

[MobiuS]

It' not a matter of opinions. They are different. Their soul threads are red! When Ichigo first became a Shinigami, Ishida immediately knew, because Ichigo's soul had changed.
Sometimes it really frustrates me, how people willingly ignore clearly stated facts for a discussion.

Hmm Im not trying to argue, just bring up a point for discusion. Maybe that technique does not actually detect a Soul Reaper, but the presence of a Zanpaktou?

I mean, a Soul Reaper and his blade are supposed to become one. So when you do the search, you would get 1 red string signalling the presence of a zanpaktou.

Why would I say this? Ichigo used that technique to detect where his ZANPAKTOU was ... not where a Soul Reaper was. I dont know, I just wanted to add a twist on the discussion and see what people have to think.

[Bedlam]

i don't think that was kaien back then but rather just some random person who recently became a shinigami.

[brightredglow]

I don't know it if it was in the manga, but I remember a scene in the anime, in which Rukia and Renji (as kids) meet Kaien in the slums; he gave them something to eat and told them, that he also grew up there.

Sorry, but Bedlam is right. That wasn't Kaien. That is a nameless shinigami person who is never seen from again. And since that scene isn't in the manga (it was added in the anime only), it doesn't apply to the manga discussion.

It is Soi Fon who says that the Shibas are a fallen noble house during her battle with Yoriuchi so we can presume that while Kuukaku doesn't "act" like a noble, her lineage is that of a noble.

[Wolcik]

and how would all Shiba have the same eyes, each of them has thouse lashes, and they have strange jaws :D Ganju has a big one, Kukkaku has a wicked smile, and Kaien... don't remember anything strange about his. and They all have the same hair :D they must be related by blood.
But than again Rukia and Byakuya have similar eyebrows and similar hair too :P but Rukia's head is just so big :D

[Wolcik]

I don't think the point is the lineage, but more the upbringing.
However, the fact that this wasn't Kaien means, that we have no idea, of when the Shibas lost their status as a noble clan.
On the other hand, I still think, that they lost this status a long time, before Kaien and Kuukaku were "born". Because if their were raised noble, their behavior should be a bit different. And when Rukia thought of her past, she said, that Kaien was the first one, who didn't treat her anything special. If he were also a noble, I think it would have been mentioned at this point.

And I think, the Shibas must have lost their nobility, before Yoruichi lost hers (which was 100 years ago). Because Yoruichi knew, that she had to search for Kuukaku's house in the slums. This means, that the Shibas already lived outside the Shinigami city, when Urahra and Yoruichi escaped from Soul Society.
And Rukia only became Shinigami until about 50 years ago.
that's right.
Shiba's clan has fallen over 100 years ago, but Kukkaku is old enough to be one of those that could couse it :D
Ganju was a little boy in flashback so he must have been born in slums
we don't know anything about Kaien... Byakuya had respect for Kaien that would fight the law like Ichigo (in manga), but we don't know did it was because he was a noble or just VC that Byakuya remembered him well :D

[brightredglow]

Okay. So I mistook this guy.

I was just wondering where it was in the story that Kaien said he grew up in the slums because I didn't recall that at all so I asked.

My memory, although faulty on other details, was fine in this case.

As for Kuukaku and the Shibas, I view them as being of noble lineage. Since Kaien was of a noble lineage, he probably wouldn't have been as easily impressed with the Kuchiki name. Ganju is very aware of the Kuchiki history in a way that Renji doesn't even mention. And Kuukaku obviously has enough money to move her house and keep two retainers and given the way she trains Ganju to "be in front next time" infers that, in her actions, the Shibas have a reputation to uphold. Lastly, (and I may be wrong here) only noble family can bear offspring in Soul Society. The fact that Ganji, Kaien and Kuukaku have similar traits and are a "real family" is indicative of their noble lineage.

That's my opinion. You can disagree with it, but it isn't based on nothing. The manga does give evidence that the Shibas, while a fallen noble house, still retain a pride and bloodline of a noble family.