View Full Version : Spell Blast 90
i find it a bit odd that such a captain level as Komamura could easily be taken down by a SINGLE spell that was not even at its full power.
Well maybe spells are always powerful, just that it isn't easy to hit someone, therefore they don't use spells.
Like Byakuya vs Ichigo, Byakuya only cast the spell when he is sure it will hit ichigo.
Glitch87
2005-12-30, 03:42
also he wasnt completely taken down...didnt you see him get up a few minutes later?
SSJ7 Goku
2005-12-30, 04:52
it seemed like Gin was surprised that Aizen knew how to use that kidou, so even though it was only at 1/3 of it's full power, it was such a high level spell that it was capable of knocking him down..
that's just my guess though =|
Novarain
2005-12-30, 07:31
In the manga it's explained that the 90+ spells are the highest level and are supposed to be almost impossible to even cast in the first place so i won't be surprised if even Aizen struggled to cast it and that Komamura would have been completely destroyed had it reached full power...
Desti-Fate
2005-12-30, 07:34
Hey, you can take someone down with a good stab.
I don't see why a point-blank magical explosion from *Aizen* wouldn't be able to knock a guy down and keep him there.
In the manga it's explained that the 90+ spells are the highest level and are supposed to be almost impossible to even cast in the first place so i won't be surprised if even Aizen struggled to cast it and that Komamura would have been completely destroyed had it reached full power...
Aizen didnt reached full power because he didnt had the time to casts the complete incantation for the spell, wich takes severals minutes
Aizen didnt reached full power because he didnt had the time to casts the complete incantation for the spell, wich takes severals minutes
like 4th VC Isane had to talk so much to find out where he went or to call everyone, so Aizen probably would have to do something even more harder than difficult incatation :D
and Komamura was already beat up at least some, cause we saw him last time when he was starting the fight with Zaraki, and than it took some time for Yamamoto to start his fight, so he run away :D
Well theres also differences in "captain level".
Spiritual Energy monsters like Zaraki or Yama-jii probably wouldnt have taken it as hard as Komamura. Sure ... its Black Arts ... but if it was strong enough to destroy ANYTHING, wouldnt the Shinigami forget about Shinkais and Bankais and focus on using 90s Kidou to decimate the Vaizard army??
I dont think they need full-release to cast them either .... >_>
Altharion
2005-12-30, 08:58
there are some shinigami that focus on kidou (rukia, momo) and some who focus on hakuda (soi fong) and some who only focus on zanjutsu (zaraki).
Inkognito
2005-12-30, 10:26
The spell and level were used to illustrate how powerful Aizen is... It'd be tough to believe that we're faced with a seemingly all-powerful enemy if he was casting level 2 spells even after stopping a bankai with a finger.
If aizen try to stab, konomara could have dodged or grab his zanpaktou and make him vunerable. lvl 90 spell at close range cant be dodged...
If aizen try to stab, konomara could have dodged or grab his zanpaktou and make him vunerable. lvl 90 spell at close range cant be dodged...
Except for the fact that Komamura, just like Hitsugaya, Renji, Hinamori, etc, are all under his Absolute Hypnosis. He would never see the blade coming, so he wouldn't have been able to dodge (he didn't even see Aizen move up to him).
As for the spell...yeah. Gin was surprised Aizen was able to cast the spell without the full incantation, he skipped all of that. As such, its power was dramatically decreased. If it had been at full strength, there's a good chance that Komamura would be dead right now.
Baphomet
2005-12-30, 13:22
Maybe Aizen did perform several minutes long incantation for the lvl90 spell but used his shikai to make everyone believe that its instant :heh:
Maybe Aizen did perform several minutes long incantation for the lvl90 spell but used his shikai to make everyone believe that its instant :heh:
who knows....what you say might be true..since most are under his hypnosis, he must have took a couple of minutes and making it looks like an instant. Even when he stop ichigo blade was due to the hypnosis.
The spell and level were used to illustrate how powerful Aizen is... It'd be tough to believe that we're faced with a seemingly all-powerful enemy if he was casting level 2 spells even after stopping a bankai with a finger.
What is kinda weird, as pointed out by someone on the lunar forums, is that Tessai was able to do two level 99 spells earlier in the series, when he was in the pit with Ichigo IIRC.
Creepy.
Desti-Fate
2005-12-30, 14:55
Knowing Urahara, he might have been using some device to amplify his power. Also, he would have had pleeeenty of time to prepare and er, incant.
Even when he stop ichigo blade was due to the hypnosis.
I kind of doubt this, I don't think Ichigo ever saw Aizen do his Shikai release yet. All of the Captains and VCs were gathered ages ago and shown the release.
In order for the release effect to take place, maybe it takes a certain amount of time? We were never really shown how the hypnosis is cast.
Also, the way he blocked the sword basically means that Aizen has alot more power leaking out of him. Just like how Ichigo was unable to cut Kenpachi at first.
Are kidou exactly the same for each person? Say for instance, Zaraki compared to Renji, would the difference in raw power affect the size/power of the spell?
If it did, maybe 1/3 power of Aizen's spell was so powerful because any of his spells are already very powerful.
What is kinda weird, as pointed out by someone on the lunar forums, is that Tessai was able to do two level 99 spells earlier in the series, when he was in the pit with Ichigo IIRC.
Creepy.
From what I understood, it was all one spell, but just different phases
wat chapter was this shown? Tessai doing 2 lvl99 spells
Lackadaisical
2005-12-30, 21:44
There are two types of kidou: one which is essentially defensive, bakudou, and the other which is offensive, hadou.
In the manga these are clearly marked in the names of the spells.
Tessai used a defensive spell which, as far as we know does not carry the degree of difficultly that the offensive spell type does. When Gin comments on the difficulty of above 90 spells, he only mentions the offensive spells.
Aizen didnt reached full power because he didnt had the time to casts the complete incantation for the spell, wich takes severals minutes
Agrees. Besides, if Aizen do the incantation, Komamura would have evaded the spells.
Komamura is just an overgrown weakling who got owned by Aizen and would have even got owned by Kenpachi (without shikai/bankai) if they have finished fighting. Aizen is clearly a class above all captains that were shown and yet Gin was surprise that Aizen could use class 90 spell demonstrating that the class 90 offensive hadou is clearly powerful enough to take down an overgrown weakling captain... fully powered or not
Aizen is clearly a class above all captains that were shown and yet Gin was surprise that Aizen could use class 90 spell demonstrating that the class 90 offensive hadou is clearly powerful enough to take down an overgrown weakling captain... fully powered or not
Incorrect; Gin wasn't impressed that Aizen performed the spell, he was impressed that he did it without the incantation. Aizen responded that he didn't pull it off properly; he'd messed up.
I wouldn't go calling Aizen "a captain above the rest" simply because he pulled off a Level 90 spell (and without incantation), nor because he brought down a weakened captain. By that logic, Zaraki Kenpachi is a god, because he took down two captains who were at full strength, directly after being weakened by Ichigo - and he didn't even use spells or bankai.
Aizen's crafty. Clearly, he can also back it up. We don't know his raw power potential, though, and hence we can't really compare him to anyone without wild speculations.
Anh_Minh
2005-12-31, 10:46
He stopped Ichigo's ban kai with his bare hand. I don't think even Kenpachi could do that.
The Small One
2005-12-31, 13:13
By that logic, Zaraki Kenpachi is a god, because he took down two captains who were at full strength, directly after being weakened by Ichigo - and he didn't even use spells or bankai.
:confused: Who was weakened? After the figth with Ichigo, it took three days, until Kenpachi fought with the other captains... in the meantime, he rested and gathered Ichigo's friends.
He stopped Ichigo's ban kai with his bare hand. I don't think even Kenpachi could do that.
One could argue that Ichigo was pretty beat up already, so it isn't that impressive. What I'll argue instead is that stopping his bankai with his bare hand (or was it? Perhaps it was just an illusion?), that alone doesn't mean he'd win a fight.
Who was weakened? After the figth with Ichigo, it took three days, until Kenpachi fought with the other captains... in the meantime, he rested and gathered Ichigo's friends.
Was it? I have no perception of time with Bleach. You're right, I think, but it doesn't detract much from my initial point: Kenpachi took on two captains one after the other and won. The fact that Aizen took out Komamura, who'd already received something of a beating from Kenpachi, doesn't automatically mean that Aizen is oh-so-cool.
I'm sure Aizen's strong, don't get me wrong. I think people are getting a bit too excited over his raw power potential. Though it's a moot point; the next time we see him, he probably won't be a full shinigami anymore. We'll never know what his full capabilities were.
Just wondering but is it possible to argue that Komamura was under the influences of Aizen's Shikai still?
Since it seems anyone whos ever seen it remains in the trance, it could very well be possible hes using his hypnosis to make himself seem more powerful than he is.
Anh_Minh
2005-12-31, 16:56
One could argue that Ichigo was pretty beat up already, so it isn't that impressive. What I'll argue instead is that stopping his bankai with his bare hand (or was it? Perhaps it was just an illusion?), that alone doesn't mean he'd win a fight.
Ban kai is ban kai. If Ichigo was so weakened he couldn't compress his spiritual force anymore, he'd just let his ban kai go. Sure, the acttack wasn't as strong as what he could manage in peak condition. But it was very probably stronger than anything he could do with the normal Zangetsu (which includes cutting Kenpachi.)
And it can't have been an illusion: Ichigo's never seen Aizen's release.
KaneDragon
2005-12-31, 17:26
Aizen is a hax0r. He can make up his own rules. :rolleyes: Maybe he released his shikai and then used it to make it look like he didn't release it, or something... :eyespin: I wasn't expecting Ichigo to be affected by the hypnosis, either, but I refuse to believe that Aizen can really stop Ichigo's bankai with ONE FINGER, Ichigo being greatly weakened or not. :mad:
Right? :upset:
Anh_Minh
2005-12-31, 19:20
I think he really did. Now, it may be that he has a special technique to concentrate his spirit force in one point or something (as opposed to Kenpachi who just releases automatically, without conscious will.)
Yea .. Aizen's Spiritual Energy has to be insanely high. Higher than Kenpachi's or at least equal to it. Which makes sense really ... considering the lvl90 spell he cast on Konumaru. And the fact that he stopped Ichigo's BanKai means the spiritual energy floating around and in the finger is higher than the one concentrated in Ichigo's Black Zangetsu. The Bankai doesnt seem to be much more of an increase from his Shikai ... just an extension of his speed. So his strength / spiritual energy in his Bankai is pretty much the same in his Shikai. And if someone who is untalented in controlling spiritual energy (Kenpachi) can stop the blade ... someone with mastery of spiritual energy such as Aizen should stop it easily. Whats a bigger suprise is why Byakuya was not able to stop Ichigo the same way.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-01, 06:37
.............. Kenpachi took on two captains one after the other and won. The fact that Aizen took out Komamura, who'd already received something of a beating from Kenpachi, doesn't automatically mean that Aizen is oh-so-cool...........
Komamura ran away from the fight with Kenpachi if I recall correctly.................one thing thats kinda bugging me is why was he surprised that he (Aizen) didnt cut Ichigo in half as he had intended...
I think that Urahara did Orchestrate this whole Rukia thing but was not in it with Aizen.....he probably was just tryin to keep anyone away from that thing that was inside Rukia so that it didnt fall into the wrong hands....
I wonder for what reasons he left SS alonside yoruichi......he has got to be one bad ass dude too, i wouldnt doubt it if he is hella strong...
I have no doubt that Urahara rank up with the more powerfull death gods out there, still hes a damn weakling when it comes to seizing opportunities, he actually want to destroy his own groundbreaking research, the man has no stomach, now the evil yet bishi Aizen took the credit.
Komamura ran away from the fight with Kenpachi if I recall correctly.................
I believe you're correct, because I don't remember that fight concluding. Komamura did use his bankai against Kenpachi, though. So, whether he was beaten or not, they had to have fought a bit.
I wonder for what reasons he left SS alonside yoruichi......he has got to be one bad ass dude too, i wouldnt doubt it if he is hella strong...
Not sure why that's in spoiler marks, since it's already been discussed in the anime as well, and even before episode 62 if I recall correctly. I'll respond in a spoiler tag anyway:
It was mentioned that Urahara left his position as a captain of Soul Society. I believe it was Aizen who expanded on this, though, and said that Urahara didn't exactly leave of his own free will: he was exiled. The only reason I can really remember was something about the faux body research; that he was exiled for creating something that would permanantly reduce the soul's power. I feel like I'm remembering that reason improperly, though... but either way, exile was in there. Whether Urahara was forced to leave, or whether he left and then was considered exiled, is a matter that could be debated.
Originally posted by Ledgem
I wouldn't go calling Aizen "a captain above the rest" simply because he pulled off a Level 90 spell (and without incantation), nor because he brought down a weakened captain. By that logic, Zaraki Kenpachi is a god, because he took down two captains who were at full strength, directly after being weakened by Ichigo - and he didn't even use spells or bankai.
Aizen's crafty. Clearly, he can also back it up. We don't know his raw power potential, though, and hence we can't really compare him to anyone without wild speculations.
um i dont know how to do the spoiler tag so i wont go in detail but AIZEN is class above all the captains if u have read the manga
scorpio516
2006-01-01, 18:16
It was mentioned that Urahara left his position as a captain of Soul Society. I believe it was Aizen who expanded on this, though, and said that Urahara didn't exactly leave of his own free will: he was exiled. The only reason I can really remember was something about the faux body research; that he was exiled for creating something that would permanantly reduce the soul's power. I feel like I'm remembering that reason improperly, though... but either way, exile was in there. Whether Urahara was forced to leave, or whether he left and then was considered exiled, is a matter that could be debated.
Not just that it decreased the spirit power within - which comes to play with the perminant hiding of the hong-thingie. But because the faux body was totally untrackable, which is why the security/ninja people had to find her in the real world. I don't remember if he was exiled because he made the body or because he wouldn't destroy it
ichigo fans
2006-01-02, 01:28
why cant people dodge spells?
The Small One
2006-01-02, 05:27
why cant people dodge spells?
Because they are usually held in place by the caster. At the time Baykuya used a spell against Ichigo, he rammed a sword through Ichigo's foot to prevent him from evading. ;)
ichigo fans
2006-01-02, 12:03
Because they are usually held in place by the caster. At the time Baykuya used a spell against Ichigo, he rammed a sword through Ichigo's foot to prevent him from evading. ;)
but renji can run right..
And that wolf captain also can run..
but when they cast spell , opponent just stunned there and wait for the spell to reach them -.-
but renji can run right..
And that wolf captain also can run..
but when they cast spell , opponent just stunned there and wait for the spell to reach them -.-
I don't think they casted the spell that long, in both case the caster skipped the incantation.
KanaKaishou
2006-01-02, 17:13
Renji was pinned by another holding spell.
On the other hand, Komamura was just WTF'd by Aizen.
There's a reason this is an entertainment form and not a documentary. Who says it's supposed to be realistic?
If you really want to link it to something realistic, just think of it in terms of the "deer in headlights" effect - that is, you freeze up during impending danger. It could be that your blind runs blank, or that a million evasive actions come to your mind and you can't decide on a single one. And if you ask me, "Way of Destruction 90" is a pretty frikkin' bright headlight.
I would say the realization of Aizen's illusion is the bright headlight, not WoD 90.
It would make lousy action scenes if people can dodge spells all the time, since spells are meant to say 'look at me being cool and pwned you with something other then my sword' and show off the caster superiority, but once i would like to see someone dodge it.
IchiNiiSan
2006-01-03, 23:41
He stopped Ichigo's ban kai with his bare hand. I don't think even Kenpachi could do that.
And technically, when zaraki and ichigo fought for the first time, ichigo hit him as hard as he could in the chest and cut himself, which really would be worse then aizen just stopping ichigo, ichigo cut himself trying to hit zaraki.
and of course of course ichigo is much stronger now and what not, and zaraki surely couldn't do that now, but you still can't say that zaraki CAN'T do that, since he already has :heh:
Ichigo is NOT stronger now. Just faster. His spiritual energy neither grows nor shinks in battle (not counting tapping into Zangetsu's own power) or even moving from Shikai to Bankai. He only gains speed. Its been stated. If he was still scared, Zaraki's chest would have the same effect on his Bankai as it did on his Shikai. Pure pwnage.
So its perfectly logical for Aizen to stop regular Ichigo's bankai with his finger. Zaraki did it with the Shinkai. And his Bankai does not increase Spiritual Energy nor Physical damage. Only speed. Aizen's spiri energy does not even necessarily have to be as high as Kenpachi the pimp. He only needs to be able to control his spiritual energy well. Which we can safely asume he can do - as the main antagonist.
Ichigo is NOT stronger now. Just faster. His spiritual energy neither grows nor shinks in battle (not counting tapping into Zangetsu's own power) or even moving from Shikai to Bankai. He only gains speed. Its been stated. If he was still scared, Zaraki's chest would have the same effect on his Bankai as it did on his Shikai. Pure pwnage.
So its perfectly logical for Aizen to stop regular Ichigo's bankai with his finger. Zaraki did it with the Shinkai. And his Bankai does not increase Spiritual Energy nor Physical damage. Only speed. Aizen's spiri energy does not even necessarily have to be as high as Kenpachi the pimp. He only needs to be able to control his spiritual energy well. Which we can safely asume he can do - as the main antagonist.
Force = Mass X Acceleration the faster you go the harder you hit.
like getting hit by a car going 5 mph vs getting hit by a car going 100 mph.
but then again what does real world gotta do with this...right? ;)
Exactly. It wasnt even on Earth.
but renji can run right..
And that wolf captain also can run..
but when they cast spell , opponent just stunned there and wait for the spell to reach them -.-
Komamura was stunned, that's why he did not have time to run away or dodge Aizen's kidou attack.
I'm not sure if binding spells are as difficult as blast spells but
since we are talking about level 90+ kidou. did you know ichigo got out of a level 99 binding spell? When he was about to turn into a Hollow during Urahara's training the dude with the glasses (dunno his name) cast a lvl 99 binding spell on ichigo that he "blasted" through. :)
Ichigo is NOT stronger now. Just faster. His spiritual energy neither grows nor shinks in battle (not counting tapping into Zangetsu's own power) or even moving from Shikai to Bankai. He only gains speed. Its been stated. If he was still scared, Zaraki's chest would have the same effect on his Bankai as it did on his Shikai. Pure pwnage.
In most shounen series, stronger means better, not necessarily physically stronger.
I know that. But the idea is that he isnt really hitting harder than he hit Kenpachi. And Kenpachi had that result. So the premise here is really physical damage not speed. It shouldnt matter as much as his physical strength. What he gains in speed, his zanpaktou loses in mass. So the equation may balance out actually.
But the idea is that he doesnt hit considerably harder than his shikai. Just faster. So it makes sense Aizen can block it. In fact, I bet Yama-jii's beard could block it.
Renji was pinned by another holding spell.
On the other hand, Komamura was just WTF'd by Aizen.
A lot of people are forgetting one thing, He just had a fight with kenpachi. And by the looks of it.. wasnt looking to good and he was worn out and hurt.
Illuyankas
2006-01-10, 19:26
Does it actually say level 90 as how much power is behind it, as opposed to 'Spell Number 90', or even just 'Spell 90'? Because if its number is based on its order in a book of kidou, then it could be a very powerful spell, and more powerful than the 99 thing that held Ichigo, and it could go to Spell 91 - Bottle Opener of Impending Inebriation or something and not be arranged by power, that way... It could be order of discovery, or something similar.
I haven't explained this at all well
The Small One
2006-01-11, 02:53
Does it actually say level 90 as how much power is behind it, as opposed to 'Spell Number 90', or even just 'Spell 90'? Because if its number is based on its order in a book of kidou, then it could be a very powerful spell, and more powerful than the 99 thing that held Ichigo, and it could go to Spell 91 - Bottle Opener of Impending Inebriation or something and not be arranged by power, that way... It could be order of discovery, or something similar.
Well, I think there should be some sort of system in the way they ordered their spells, however as long as the author doesn't explain this (by entering a few chapters of Kidou lessons for Ichigo ;)) we can't know for sure.
IMHO it would make sense to order the spells by the length of their incarnation... so the 1st spell would be the shortest (like "die"), and the 'last' one had the most text to recite.
A lot of people are forgetting one thing, He just had a fight with kenpachi. And by the looks of it.. wasnt looking to good and he was worn out and hurt.
Is that the fanboy talking ;) ? Because i would assume that Komamura could have owned Kenpachi so hard if he didnt left for Yama.
Kenpachi would be like..'Oh, Komamura, you are so so strong, let me lick your feet and then kill myself by choking on my eyepatch, because you are so much stronger then me...ah..ah..yes'
Then Komamura would whisper....'Tousen...' in a melodramatic kind of way.
There isnt really any proof that Komamura was loosing or having problems dealing with Kenpachi, neither there is proof that he was winning or even if they fought at all.
Baphomet
2006-01-11, 07:37
Force = Mass X Acceleration the faster you go the harder you hit.
like getting hit by a car going 5 mph vs getting hit by a car going 100 mph.
but then again what does real world gotta do with this...right? ;)
So that means once Ichigo achieves his max speed, he needs to put on weight to overcome the power limitation. Aizen seems heavier than Ichigo, hence, probably more powerful than Ichigo, assuming they have the same speed.
So that means once Ichigo achieves his max speed, he needs to put on weight to overcome the power limitation. Aizen seems heavier than Ichigo, hence, probably more powerful than Ichigo, assuming they have the same speed.
Typically, the weilder's mass shouldnt matter. Only the blade ... >_>
The Small One
2006-01-11, 12:19
Hm, it's interessting to imagine Ichigo after he gained 80-100 kg. :)
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-12, 01:28
Is that the fanboy talking ;) ? Because i would assume that Komamura could have owned Kenpachi so hard if he didnt left for Yama.
Kenpachi would be like..'Oh, Komamura, you are so so strong, let me lick your feet and then kill myself by choking on my eyepatch, because you are so much stronger then me...ah..ah..yes'
Then Komamura would whisper....'Tousen...' in a melodramatic kind of way.
There isnt really any proof that Komamura was loosing or having problems dealing with Kenpachi, neither there is proof that he was winning or even if they fought at all.
never would have happened
So that means once Ichigo achieves his max speed, he needs to put on weight to overcome the power limitation. Aizen seems heavier than Ichigo, hence, probably more powerful than Ichigo, assuming they have the same speed.
hehe
speed is actually a very big factor in the equation. lets take a similar and more famous equation... E=mc^2. c = speed of light so lets say v as speed.. if you reverse that equation around:
v = sqrt(E/m)
which pretty much says that to go at speed of light you need an enourmous amount of E/m or lots of Energy, and as little a mass as possible. Since light is weightless that's why light speed is thought to be maximum terminal speed...
So the heavier you are the harder it will be for you to achieve faster speed. F=ma...a=f/m because mass counter balance speed....you need more force to go faster if you are heavier.
hehe and ichigo's bankai gives him super human speed so he should be the fastest character in the anime...but anyways...i'll just shutup lol.
never would have happened
Denial will only drift you further away from salvation.
The fact is how can Kenpachi ever hope to defeat a uber big ass giant, and with a sword too.
Kicking his big toe wont help, nor is it effective to shake his head so hard, in the hope the noise from his jingle bells would drive the giant mad. Face it, Kenpachi's only hope is to run away from Komamura like a little girl..that is, if he can find the way.
NoSanninWa
2006-01-12, 03:11
This was never much of a topic and lately it has degenerated even further. I think it is time to put this one to bed.
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