View Full Version : What is the correlation between Kaien and Ichigo?
Just wondering what's the correlation between them. Is ichigo the reincarnation of kaien or is he just a look alike. If ichigo is kaien's reincarnation, wouldn't mean ichigo's hollow is really just the entity of kaien and aizen's hollow merged? To be precise, the apparence of the ichigo-hollow was already in ichigo but instead activated when he was on the verge of death...well, if you compare the pictures of kaein+aizen's hollow with ichigo-hollow in ichigo's subconcious, they look exactly the same...
Just wondering what's the correlation between them. Is ichigo the reincarnation of kaien or is he just a look alike. If ichigo is kaien's reincarnation, wouldn't mean ichigo's hollow is really just the entity of kaien and aizen's hollow merged? To be precise, the apparence of the ichigo-hollow was already in ichigo but instead activated when he was on the verge of death...well, if you compare the pictures of kaein+aizen's hollow with ichigo-hollow in ichigo's subconcious, they look exactly the same...
Well yes...a Hollow entity was apparent in Ichigo beforehand...but I doubt it's due to a Kaien-Hollow hybrid. More than likely the entity was created when Ichigo was trying to escape from the pit during the test to see if he could regain his Shinigami powers. It's only a theory, but that seems to be the most logical and generally recognized one around.
As for a connection between Kaien and Ichigo...personally, I don't think there is any besides for a similarity in appearance. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that there isn't one...just that I don't think there is one.
This is very similar to people's arguements of Naruto looking like the 4th Hokage(naruto).
But then again, both are shounen animes:heh:
SuperKnuckles
2006-01-01, 03:32
Well yes...a Hollow entity was apparent in Ichigo beforehand...but I doubt it's due to a Kaien-Hollow hybrid. More than likely the entity was created when Ichigo was trying to escape from the pit during the test to see if he could regain his Shinigami powers. It's only a theory, but that seems to be the most logical and generally recognized one around.
As for a connection between Kaien and Ichigo...personally, I don't think there is any besides for a similarity in appearance. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that there isn't one...just that I don't think there is one.
I think it can go either way. But really, I don't think the Shinigami test by Urahara would've been so influential in making Ichigo a shinigami/hollow hybrid..
Though I think it's possible that Urahara might have orchestrated the whole thing in the beginning whether its via reincarnation or giving Ichigo that test.
Potatochobit
2006-01-01, 03:47
its pretty clear that the hollow ichigo is a result of urahara's training.
remember how he had the mask? i think ichigo is the new prototype that can blend soul slayer and hollow power together, and each side has its own personality now.
SuperKnuckles
2006-01-01, 03:54
I suppose that can only mean that we still don't know whether Urahara is truly a good guy or not. He may actually be working with Aizen or maybe even doing some underground by himself.
Though I think that he'll stay a good guy doing shady things just like how he was portrayed so far.
Wolfslord
2006-01-01, 04:50
I suppose that can only mean that we still don't know whether Urahara is truly a good guy or not. He may actually be working with Aizen or maybe even doing some underground by himself.
Though I think that he'll stay a good guy doing shady things just like how he was portrayed so far.
I would go this way, perhaps Urahara knew or thought that to have a chance to defeat Aizen and ruin his plan, he needed someone stronger than a normal Shinigami (if he made Ichigo a hybrid on purpose)
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-01, 06:06
This is very similar to people's arguements of Naruto looking like the 4th Hokage(naruto).
But then again, both are shounen animes:heh:
ummm.......thats his father........and i was wondering something right along those lines with ichigo and kaien......im not goin to speculate im just goin to watch what happens next
well, if you compare the pictures of kaein+aizen's hollow with ichigo-hollow in ichigo's subconcious, they look exactly the same...
I totally disagree with this. They don't look a thing alike to me.
Do you want to post some comparison pics?
hitokirigirl
2006-01-01, 12:30
I did'nt go into that theory that Kaien would be Ichigo's reincarnation, and I don't want to...
If it's true, honestly Bleach would be ruined for me :frustrated:
The fact they look alike (appearance and personality) is more than enough as a correlation. In the other side, a relation involving Ichigo's Hollow and Kaien's would lead to some twisted plot...
I really don't see how their Hollows could be related; the time and various dates Aizen mentions in the last eps must be matching Kaien's death/Ichigo's birth and so on, to be enough as a solid theory
gangsta905_04
2006-01-01, 12:34
The only noticeable differences between Hollow-Ichigo and Hollow-Kaien, are the eyes, and hair. The rest is all the same such as Voice, and other features.
*Sigh*, there are so many threads like this, why not just make one SUPER BIG thread, or combine all these threads, and Pin it, or make them a Stick or whatever. It's the most talked about anyways.
Ex. -Ichigo is a Re-incarnation of Kaien
-Hollow-Ichigo looks like Hollow Kaien
In essence, aren't these two the same?
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-01, 12:57
.....not the same.....but we're goin to have to wait some to get an answer to this...
Kaien is Ichigo older dead brother, who is in fact the extramarital child of Isshin and some unknown Las Vegas stripper, he mysteriously disappeared during a summer cruise on the Pacific and was presumed dead, but in reality he was stranded on some beach with amnesia. He got married, have 3 children, a dog and 2 cats in Titusville, Florida USA. He also developed a strange addiction for glue and died at age 39 because of some unknown lung disease.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-01, 14:30
.....thats the word on the street.....
I totally disagree with this. They don't look a thing alike to me.
Do you want to post some comparison pics?
I can't remember the manga chapters, but the picture of ichigo-hollow in his subconsiousness when fighting kenpachi, and flash back of kaien when the aizen's hollow merges with kaien, then saying something on the lines, that their 2 souls are now intertwined or some other bs...
its pretty clear that the hollow ichigo is a result of urahara's training.
I used to believe this too, but the main flaw in this theory is that Hollow-Ichigo 'appeared' BEFORE the pit incident. This was when he fought Renji in the human world. The part where he starts freaking Renji out with the large amounts of energy and the seemingly-random attack pattern (Just like when Ichigo fought Byakuya)
Illuyankas
2006-01-01, 16:36
Except that his face is unchanged, and his voice is the same, and he acts nothing like Hollow-Ichigo, and... no. That was just your standard shonen powerup.
The only noticeable differences between Hollow-Ichigo and Hollow-Kaien, are the eyes, and hair. The rest is all the same such as Voice, and other features.
Hollow-Kaien had no eyes, a pointy tongue, and tentacles shooting out everywhere. His voice was the same as the voice of the hollow before it merged with Kaien. Hollow-Ichigo is just a "negative" version of Ichigo.
If anything, the hollow forms look alike simply because Kaien and Ichigo look alike. Neither of the hollows warp the natural look of them.
Thewanderer
2006-01-01, 20:16
Except that his face is unchanged, and his voice is the same, and he acts nothing like Hollow-Ichigo, and... no. That was just your standard shonen powerup.
Just for curiosity's sake... what's a non-standard 'shonen' powerup look like...?
ScytheBlade
2006-01-02, 00:03
Just for curiosity's sake... what's a non-standard 'shonen' powerup look like...?
FEEL MY ROAR! RAWRRRRR!!!!!111
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-02, 01:03
Hollow-Kaien had no eyes, a pointy tongue, and tentacles shooting out everywhere. His voice was the same as the voice of the hollow before it merged with Kaien. Hollow-Ichigo is just a "negative" version of Ichigo.
If anything, the hollow forms look alike simply because Kaien and Ichigo look alike. Neither of the hollows warp the natural look of them.
....thank you.......i feel the same way.....i was thinking of a mean way to say it.....
gangsta905_04
2006-01-02, 09:59
Hollow-Kaien had no eyes, a pointy tongue, and tentacles shooting out everywhere. His voice was the same as the voice of the hollow before it merged with Kaien. Hollow-Ichigo is just a "negative" version of Ichigo.
If anything, the hollow forms look alike simply because Kaien and Ichigo look alike. Neither of the hollows warp the natural look of them.
A negative version of Ichigo, would not be black and white, it would be sum messed up colors..the thing with that hollow ichigo is that his eyes are orange..that's about it. I guess the tongue and tentacles contribute to making hollow-kaien different from hollow ichigo.
DrunkenRyder
2006-01-07, 23:51
Sorry if this has been already said in this thread.
This Is A Gigante Spoiler Do Not Click If You Havent Read The Manga
Kaien isnt related to ichigo at all...Simply because Isshin is a powerful shinigami himself, explaining why ichigo is powerful and what not.
D3athScythe
2006-01-08, 01:05
I used to believe this too, but the main flaw in this theory is that Hollow-Ichigo 'appeared' BEFORE the pit incident. This was when he fought Renji in the human world. The part where he starts freaking Renji out with the large amounts of energy and the seemingly-random attack pattern (Just like when Ichigo fought Byakuya)
I believe that is his own power, I remember hearing that Ichigo himself already
had shinigami powers, before Rukia's? :confused:
Souzouryoku
2006-01-08, 01:12
I believe that is his own power, I remember hearing that Ichigo himself already had shinigami powers, before Rukia's?
Hmm..I seem to recall hearing that also. I think it was Urahara, who said something along the lines of "awakening the powers he already had". Or maybe it was Zangetsu?
Just for curiosity's sake... what's a non-standard 'shonen' powerup look like...?
Um....probably a power-up in a non-shounen anime? :uhoh:
Just for curiosity's sake... what's a non-standard 'shonen' powerup look like...?
Well, I've been thinking...it may look like Ichigo raising one hand into the air, palm facing outwards and screaming, "MOON POWER! MAKE-UP!!!"
Well, I've been thinking...it may look like Ichigo raising one hand into the air, palm facing outwards and screaming, "MOON POWER! MAKE-UP!!!"
Wait....are you sure thats not a typical shounen power-up?:eyebrow:
I used to believe this too, but the main flaw in this theory is that Hollow-Ichigo 'appeared' BEFORE the pit incident. This was when he fought Renji in the human world. The part where he starts freaking Renji out with the large amounts of energy and the seemingly-random attack pattern (Just like when Ichigo fought Byakuya)
Lol, now after the fight with renji ichigo went to uruhara, gained his shinami powers back, and uruhara teached ichigo how to make use of zangetsu's power. When fighting renji in the SS, ichigo had a flashback in which he showed us that uruhara said something like > u cant be afraid > to protect u must kill etc etc.. and than the same thing happened as when fighting renji in the real world, an explosion of spirit energy. So this has got nothing to do with the hollow.
-my opinion also is that uruhara was aware of the fact that his way of giving ichigo his powers back will also give him a hollow(in the pit that is).
As aizen told uruhara was experimenting on shinami's to surpass the limit by turning them into hybrids. Maybe secretly he continued the project and found out that the way to become an hybrid can also be gained by the pit training ichigo did. And how did other people in SS become a shinami? Some of them never died, and gained the powers in the way ichigo did. No there were just some people who were following an education and gained knowledge and eventually gained a sword (soulslayer). So the way ichigo became one is different and the hollow form appeared with it. That was the disadvantage of that way to become an shinami all the sudden...
this is my theorie :rolleyes:
Actually, the other shinigamis became as such because they went to the shinigami "school", no?;)
Pluses that have spirit power and went for shinigami school can be shinigami.
The normal pluses are just plain spirit without spirit power, and they stay in Rukongai. We know that those who had potential will go to shinigami school.
fizzmaister
2007-01-30, 21:02
I only watch the anime, please post manga only material in spoilers.
As I was rewatching bleach, I've noticed sonething that were hinted at but not explained.
When Ichigo used the strange wing to reach the shrine of pennitence, Ukitake was surprised at how familiar the reiatsu was, and Byakuya said it wasn't who he was thinking of. We assumed it was Shiba Kaien that they were refering to since it would be like how someone said that Ichigo does look like "him", and we later learn that "him" is Kaien. But doesn't it make more sense that they were refering to Isshin?
please discuss and add anything else.
I had posted a comment on this in Q&A section If I find that article again I will post it here . The jist is Ichigo is rumored to be reincarantion of Kaien , Shinto beleives in rebirth just like Budhism Where a soul has to take minimum 7 righteous rebirths till it can attain Nirvana . Righteous rebirths so that Karma is balanced
Chaos_Shinigami
2007-01-31, 12:30
Duh.......all are messed up in this ichigo and kaein thing....only if i was that viazard of ichigo i would give u better answer though i believe pit test made the hollow in him
I only watch the anime, please post manga only material in spoilers.
As I was rewatching bleach, I've noticed sonething that were hinted at but not explained.
When Ichigo used the strange wing to reach the shrine of pennitence, Ukitake was surprised at how familiar the reiatsu was, and Byakuya said it wasn't who he was thinking of. We assumed it was Shiba Kaien that they were refering to since it would be like how someone said that Ichigo does look like "him", and we later learn that "him" is Kaien. But doesn't it make more sense that they were refering to Isshin?
please discuss and add anything else.
Well, there is nothing more in the manga, so there won't be any spoilers. I think Kaien looks way more like Ichigo than Ishiin, so I still think he was referring to Kaien.
But yet, none of Rukia or the guys who were acting as Ukitake's vice-captains seemed to see Kaien in Ichigo ...
Um, Rukia deffently thought Ichigo reminded him of Kaien. she even started to have flash backs to him when Ichigo was fighting GF. And the 3rd seats never realy interacted with Ichigo.
There are a few theroies out there. One is that Ichigo is the reincanation of Kaien. the timeing seems off to me but it is possable. Another one is the Isshin is a member of the Shiba clan and is perhaps the reason the clan fell from grace and the reason Kaien and Ichigo looks so alike is that they are related.
I have a contradicting theory to why Shiba Clan feel from Grace it was due to Kukaku's assistance to Ura during his Escape from SS why coz Kukaku refers Yoru as Ura's freind not her freind .So at some point of time Kukaku and Ura were good freinds Kukaku also adds in her convo with Yoru she couldnt refuse a request from Ura .
The Small One
2007-01-31, 16:02
I have a contradicting theory to why Shiba Clan feel from Grace it was due to Kukaku's assistance to Ura during his Escape from SS why coz Kukaku refers Yoru as Ura's freind not her freind .So at some point of time Kukaku and Ura were good freinds Kukaku also adds in her convo with Yoru she couldnt refuse a request from Ura .
I don't think this fits into the timeframe.
IIRC Kaien told Rukia and Renji, that he came from Rukongai, therefore at the time he became Shinigami, his family should have already fallen for quite some time. And IIRC he was the older brother to Kuukaku, and not a younger one.
I don't think this fits into the timeframe.
IIRC Kaien told Rukia and Renji, that he came from Rukongai,.
I didnt know about Kaien coming form Rukognai part thats news to me I presumed he was from Sereitei from his birth
JasonSolaris
2007-01-31, 17:45
Hey.. I have nothing the base this off of, but has there even been any discussion that Ichigo has a hollow side because his mother might be a hollow? Since it seems that his Shinigami father was in a gigai, maybe a hollow could be also? Or am I totally out to lunch on this?
Later
NoSanninWa
2007-01-31, 17:47
IIRC Kaien told Rukia and Renji, that he came from Rukongai.
I recall nothing of the sort. In my memory we have never been told what Kaien's background was. Additionally, while Kaien was Rukia's mentor, he never had any relationship or discussion with Renji that I can remember. I don't think I've ever seen him and Renji at the same time.
I think your recollection is faulty, please tell me when this happened.
Hey.. I have nothing the base this off of, but has there even been any discussion that Ichigo has a hollow side because his mother might be a hollow? Since it seems that his Shinigami father was in a gigai, maybe a hollow could be also? Or am I totally out to lunch on this?
LaterYou're not the first to mention this guess, but since there isn't a shred of evidence there isn't anything to discuss. Misaki could have been a hollow, the princess of Soul Society or a normal human. All such things have been guessed and are equally backed by the available data. HOWEVER none of this is related to the topic "What is the correlation between Kaien and Ichigo."
Um, Rukia deffently thought Ichigo reminded him of Kaien. she even started to have flash backs to him when Ichigo was fighting GF. And the 3rd seats never realy interacted with Ichigo.
Yeah, but that was for their attitude (with the battle for honor thingie), not for their look.
Ukitake just froze after watching Ichigo's face.
I don't think this fits into the timeframe.
IIRC Kaien told Rukia and Renji, that he came from Rukongai, therefore at the time he became Shinigami, his family should have already fallen for quite some time. And IIRC he was the older brother to Kuukaku, and not a younger one.
you got it the wrong way around. the "demotion" of the shiba nobles and moving to rukongai were postmortem. kaien's death was basically what started all that.
kaien's siblings kukaku and ganju, ashamed by their big brother's death at the hands of a no name hollow, unable to come to terms with the reality that is his brother's weakness, distanced themselves from others and used shinigami especially rukia as psycological scapegoats to make themsleves feel better.
pre-houguyoku failed experimental regular monstrous hollow is about as weak as it gets as far as hybrids go. in reality kaien dishonored himself and his clan when he lost to this crap, failing to avenge his wife. rukia didn't just do the right thing, she did the possessed kaien a favor, ending his misery. kukaku should have thanked her, but that's too humiliating for her big ego, so she chose to live in denial.
it's like, one's policeman father died a lame death slipping down a flight of stairs and the "infuriated" family finding all excuses to sue the police department/his partner for "justice". deep down they'll remember the lame ass as one who died a heroic death, battling concrete stairs
byakuya as the head of the dominating kuchiki clan and one of the strongest in its history has no talent compared to ichigo. whatever ichigo is, it's most unlikely that he's even an elite member of some noble clan, let alone crappy kaien's reincarnation. news flash people, kaien didn't loose to emokid arrancar, or uber boss, he got his ass kicked by some below GF level failed trash. anyone who can defeat d-roy is stronger than kaien, therefore rukia, renji, ikkaku >> kaien. the only reason as far as i can see for his 1 year graduation and quick VC status is family connection
Melodymix
2007-01-31, 18:23
Remember when Ichigo was dieing and Byakuya said "He looks like him"
Since the author put that down there HAS to be sum sort of connection between them. Oh well, time will tell
well the hollow had a pretty uber ability, makes your zanpaktou go poof, i wonder why he didnt do this with more hollows. cause i mean what is ichigo gona do if zangetsu is gone, kidou 85 it to death?
well the hollow had a pretty uber ability, makes your zanpaktou go poof, i wonder why he didnt do this with more hollows. cause i mean what is ichigo gona do if zangetsu is gone, kidou 85 it to death?
Ichigo can easily manifest back another Zangetsu ( Zanpakuto == Manifestation of One's Soul Power ) . He joined his Broken Zanpakuto aginst Zaraki did'nt he . And when it comes to Reatsu Ichi is a reservoir .
well the hollow had a pretty uber ability, makes your zanpaktou go poof, i wonder why he didnt do this with more hollows. cause i mean what is ichigo gona do if zangetsu is gone, kidou 85 it to death?
Q: why did aizen consider those as failed experiments if their unique abilities make them strong?
A: obviously, because they're NOT STRONG
bruce lee's special techniques works well on man, but not a grizzly, it's as simple as that. aizen deemed them failed experiments because they're WEAK and no amounts of special abilities can make up for lack of power. bleach characters comes with different shapes and abilities, but in the end reiatsu/power overcomes all. jidanbo is HUGE, yumichika has an "uber ability", but that won't prevent yamaji or kenpachi from pwning them in no time. and just because little kaien's zanpakutou was snatched doesn't mean everyone elses will, obviously. what do you think if isshin was facing that hollow?
plus who said ichigo needs zangetsu to fight? he takes out shikai VC class people like ants using hands. and don't forget there's getzuga tensho
Most likely reincarnation but I don't think KT would make such a obious twist like that. He better explain "Why they look so similar" or else I'll scream.
It'll be soooo stupid if the story just ended like "Ichigo looks similar to Kaien but there isn't a connection between them. End of story" how gay would that be!
fizzmaister
2007-01-31, 23:13
Remember when Ichigo was dieing and Byakuya said "He looks like him"
Since the author put that down there HAS to be sum sort of connection between them. Oh well, time will tell
I just posted a theory on this yesterday, but what if all of these references were comparing Ichigo to Isshin, not kaien?
The Small One
2007-02-01, 00:49
I recall nothing of the sort. In my memory we have never been told what Kaien's background was. Additionally, while Kaien was Rukia's mentor, he never had any relationship or discussion with Renji that I can remember. I don't think I've ever seen him and Renji at the same time.
I think your recollection is faulty, please tell me when this happened.
I think I remember a scene with Rukia and Renji in Rukongai, nearly dieing from hunger, when Kaien came along and gave them something to eat, telling them that he also came from Rukongai. After that, they decided to become Shinigami.
However, even if my memory is wrong on this part: I doubt that the Shiba was still a noble family, at the time Kaien was Shinigami. This wouldn't really make sense considering Rukia's "He was the only/first one who treated me normally"-part. Of course he would treat her as a peer, if he also were a member of a noble family.
you got it the wrong way around. the "demotion" of the shiba nobles and moving to rukongai were postmortem. kaien's death was basically what started all that.
kaien's siblings kukaku and ganju, ashamed by their big brother's death at the hands of a no name hollow, unable to come to terms with the reality that is his brother's weakness, distanced themselves from others and used shinigami especially rukia as psycological scapegoats to make themsleves feel better.
pre-houguyoku failed experimental regular monstrous hollow is about as weak as it gets as far as hybrids go. in reality kaien dishonored himself and his clan when he lost to this crap, failing to avenge his wife. rukia didn't just do the right thing, she did the possessed kaien a favor, ending his misery. kukaku should have thanked her, but that's too humiliating for her big ego, so she chose to live in denial.
it's like, one's policeman father died a lame death slipping down a flight of stairs and the "infuriated" family finding all excuses to sue the police department/his partner for "justice". deep down they'll remember the lame ass as one who died a heroic death, battling concrete stairs
byakuya as the head of the dominating kuchiki clan and one of the strongest in its history has no talent compared to ichigo. whatever ichigo is, it's most unlikely that he's even an elite member of some noble clan, let alone crappy kaien's reincarnation. news flash people, kaien didn't loose to emokid arrancar, or uber boss, he got his ass kicked by some below GF level failed trash. anyone who can defeat d-roy is stronger than kaien, therefore rukia, renji, ikkaku >> kaien. the only reason as far as i can see for his 1 year graduation and quick VC status is family connection
Ok are you just Trolling again or do you have a source for your claim that Kaien's death was what started the Shiba clan's fall from grace?
the only facts I have been able to find out about Kaien from going over volumes 10 through 16 are:
- he passed the entrance exan for the Academy in 1 try
- his spirit energy level was at par with the then current VC of the 13 division
- He finished the 6 years worth of curriculum in 2 years
- 5 years later he became a VC
- Ganjyu has never been around Shinigami other then his brother and the person who return his body (Rukia) and went with Ichigo to see what they were like. All of the other noble houses live inside the inner city and would be around a large number of shinigami
- Kaien was the eldest member of the clan at the time of his death
- Helping Urahara excape in to exile was not a crime big enuff to get the Shihouin clan kicked out of the Nobles but Soi Fong stated that helping Ichigo was, Meaning it would take a near rebelion to fall from grace. and makes your statement of being throwen out because Kaien was taken over by a hollow and had to be killed moronic.
Q: why did aizen consider those as failed experiments if their unique abilities make them strong?
A: obviously, because they're NOT STRONG
bruce lee's special techniques works well on man, but not a grizzly, it's as simple as that. aizen deemed them failed experiments because they're WEAK and no amounts of special abilities can make up for lack of power. bleach characters comes with different shapes and abilities, but in the end reiatsu/power overcomes all. jidanbo is HUGE, yumichika has an "uber ability", but that won't prevent yamaji or kenpachi from pwning them in no time. and just because little kaien's zanpakutou was snatched doesn't mean everyone elses will, obviously. what do you think if isshin was facing that hollow?
The power level of the hollow is not why they were failed experiments. They were failed experiments because Azein was trying to make Hollow-Shinigami hybreds but this one did not seem to gain any of the shinigami's powers. Yes that hollow was weak and in fact Kaien was beating it down with his bare hands and was about to kill it with a spell when it used it's other ablity that you have neglected to mention, the ablity to merge with anyone that had touched it. Once that happen it and he became a psudo-vizard with the hollow in control. Who knows given time Kaien might have been able to regain control by beating the hollow down in his inner or the hollow might have consumed him, we don't know because he was killed in self defence shortly afterwards.
If Isshin was faceing it who knows? He's fine if he never touches it or if his is not the first soulslayer to hit it that day or he can one hit it. Otherwise who knows, it all depends on what things factor in to it's ability to merge with spirits. It could go just as bad as with what happen to Kaien.
plus who said ichigo needs zangetsu to fight? he takes out shikai VC class people like ants using hands. and don't forget there's getzuga tensho
No Zangetsu = no Getzuga tensho = no range atacks and with this hollow at best Ichigo now has 2 crazed hollows in his head.
NoSanninWa
2007-02-01, 01:31
I think I remember a scene with Rukia and Renji in Rukongai, nearly dieing from hunger, when Kaien came along and gave them something to eat, telling them that he also came from Rukongai. After that, they decided to become Shinigami.
I remember that scene. Except that it wasn't Kaien, just a random shinigami.
Ok are you just Trolling again or do you have a source for your claim that Kaien's death was what started the Shiba clan's fall from grace?
do you have source for your claim of hiyori being the no.1 vaizard, or are YOU just trolling? what we have is the fall and kukaku's hatred towards rukia and shinigamis in general didn't start before the death. care to explain why rukia have to apologize for defending herself?
Meaning it would take a near rebelion to fall from grace. and makes your statement of being throwen out because Kaien was taken over by a hollow and had to be killed moronic.
just quoting wiki
Both Kūkaku and Ganju became distrustful of shinigami after Kaien's death. The Shiba clan was eventually removed from the top noble families, although it is unclear whether this was caused by Kaien's actions during life or by his death. The clan eventually left Seireitei to live in their residence in Rukongai. The clan diminished and is now thought to only consist of Kaien's two siblings.
the head of their clan died, they were "thrown out" by natural selection, and their own shame. it's clear kukaku's just letting out her frustration/humiliation on rukia. if she had a positive attitude, she would have tried to prove their worth instead of sitting in a corner hating people. ganju's hatred towards shinigamis mark his denial of his clan's weakness. and he IS weak
if you haven't realized until now, no one's talking about kaien because of his strength, only because of his resemblance to the shounen hero, which is about the only thing remotely impressive with this dead guy. you know it's pathetic
what we have is: kaien's + wife + whole squad = wasted by 1 hybrid hollow, and
rukia one hit k.o.ed a gillian arrancar, isshin i hit k.o.ed GF, gin as aizen's VC killing failed experiments with zero effort. refer to isshin and urahara's conversation, refer to urarahra's definition of power levels of hybrids. human form gillian arrancars > monstrous hollow failed hybrids, special ability or not, period. rukia > kaien + wife, period
aizen's no dumbass when it comes to power, if those "special abilities" in weaklings actually make bigger difference than hougyoku or top level menos, he would have realized.
and if you think aizen's after hybridization, then you've completely missed the point: aizen is maniac who's all about reaching the NEXT POWER LEVEL he follows whichever path that grants him the most power, and this JUST HAPPENS to be hybridization. and failure = not enough power boost. there's no debate on this. i'm sure a vastorode/espada would NOT be beaten by a regular hybrid hollow with special abilities like this one, period
No Zangetsu = no Getzuga tensho = no range atacks and with this hollow at best Ichigo now has 2 crazed hollows in his head.
yeah, i'm sure both shirosaki and ichigo, or anyone indeed would be totally pwned by this hollow without zanpakutou. i'm sure whatever works on little kaien works on EVERYONE in bleach. have you even an ounce of common sense?
NoSanninWa
2007-02-01, 03:49
Quoting the wiki is generally a good way to spread random ideas. It means nothing. There are many "facts" in the wiki which are merely wild speculation. There is no evidence that the Shiba clan's fall has anything at all to do with Kaien. If there is some evidence, I'd dearly love to know what the source is.
don't you get it? i'm talking about their hatred, especially the need of an apology from rukia, and the FACT that kaien+wife+squad got wasted by a failed experiment. kukaku is clearly living in denial, regardless of the status of the shiba clan.
the special abilities of a failed regular hollow won't make it anywhere near actual hougyoku creations. otherwise instead of calling them failed experiments, aizen would have called the hougyoku a failed device, it's obvious logic. people sure are messing things up: aizen went the hybrid path because he believe that offers him the most power, not because "he's just a tech guy who dreamed about perfect shinigami-hollow mixes regardless of their strength".
do you have source for your claim of hiyori being the no.1 vaizard, or are YOU just trolling? Lets see chapters 190 - 222 she has been shown in charge of the Vizards and also was the one of that took the longest of the Vizards to beat her hollow which is implied to be an indecation of how strong they are.
what we have is the fall and kukaku's hatred towards rukia and shinigamis in general didn't start before the death. care to explain why rukia have to apologize for defending herself?
Funny I just reread nearly the whole SS arc and I'm haveing problems finding any evedence that Kukaku had any hatred for Shinigamis. The closested I found was that she was pissed at Rukia because she had droped off Kaien's body with no explanation.
just quoting wiki
the head of their clan died, they were "thrown out" by natural selection, and their own shame. it's clear kukaku's just letting out her frustration/humiliation on rukia. if she had a positive attitude, she would have tried to prove their worth instead of sitting in a corner hating people. ganju's hatred towards shinigamis mark his denial of his clan's weakness. and he IS weak
As stated Wiki is one of the worst souces of infomation with out a second source as anyone can edit it. Agian there is no indecation that Kukaku had any anger focused on Rukia or Shinigamis.. Ganju's anger had nothing to do with his denial his anger was all based on the fact his brother was killed by a Shinigami and he was never told all the details.
if you haven't realized until now, no one's talking about kaien because of his strength, only because of his resemblance to the shounen hero, which is about the only thing remotely impressive with this dead guy. you know it's pathetic
what we have is: kaien's + wife + whole squad = wasted by 1 hybrid hollow, and
rukia one hit k.o.ed a gillian arrancar, isshin i hit k.o.ed GF, gin as aizen's VC killing failed experiments with zero effort. refer to isshin and urahara's conversation, refer to urarahra's definition of power levels of hybrids. human form gillian arrancars > monstrous hollow failed hybrids, special ability or not, period. rukia > kaien + wife, period
No one has claimed Kaien was all great and powerful but he was at least at what is considered VC level. And nice to see your backpedleing on Rukia being of VC level.
aizen's no dumbass when it comes to power, if those "special abilities" in weaklings actually make bigger difference than hougyoku or top level menos, he would have realized.
and if you think aizen's after hybridization, then you've completely missed the point: aizen is maniac who's all about reaching the NEXT POWER LEVEL he follows whichever path that grants him the most power, and this JUST HAPPENS to be hybridization. and failure = not enough power boost. there's no debate on this. i'm sure a vastorode/espada would NOT be beaten by a regular hybrid hollow with special abilities like this one, period
yeah, i'm sure both shirosaki and ichigo, or anyone indeed would be totally pwned by this hollow without zanpakutou. i'm sure whatever works on little kaien works on EVERYONE in bleach. have you even an ounce of common sense?
And your proof that the merging ablity wouldn't work on Ichigo is what? Just because he has huge amounts of plot armor does not mean an atack that will never be used on him wouldn't work on him if it was used on him. As I was trying to point out hollow Kaien was acting quite a lot like Hichigo and for all we know Kaien could have recovered given time or not. Ether way it does nothing to prove that Kaien's death caused the Fall of the Shiba clan. All it proves is that He was killed by a dangeous hollow while on duty there is nothing dishonorable in that or are you claiming Ukitake made up something to cover the death of his men?
Other points in on Kaien haveing nothing to do with the fall of the Shiba's. Soi Fong implied that Yoruichi knew what the fall of the Shiba clan was like which would mean it would have happend before she left SS over 100 years ago since Soi Fong had no information that Yoruichi ever return to SS after she and At the very least over 50 years before Kaien's death.
Lets see chapters 190 - 222 she has been shown in
[quote]As stated Wiki is one of the worst souces of infomation with out a second source as anyone can edit it. Agian there is no indecation that Kukaku had any anger focused on Rukia or Shinigamis.. Ganju's anger had nothing to do with his denial his anger was all based on the fact his brother was killed by a Shinigami and he was never told all the details.
kaien's death is no state secret. both ganju and kukaku could and should have known the details. their current behavior indicates either ignorance or denial. stuff like "rukia didn't leave with an explanation" "never told the details" are lame excuses because they're not babies, it's also their responsibility to learn the facts. deep inside it's kukaku who doesn't want to hear the real explanation, because her brother was possessed and died a pretty lame death.
what isshin hates the most is not the hollow who killed masaki, or the shinigami who was responsible for karakura at that time, it's HIS OWN inability to protect his wife, even though he didn't have any powers at the time, because he's a MAN. only sissies go all the way to find excuses and dump blame and hatred on others
kukaku should have apologized/thanked rukia on behalf of her brother, she should have apologized to ukitate for letting him down. it's humiliating indeed, but admitting the humiliating fact like the germans is way better than living in denial like the japs.
No one has claimed Kaien was all great and powerful but he was at least at what is considered VC level.
yet VC gin gracefully and effortlessly finishes failed experiments. VC gin >> kaien. at best he was a low level VC. and we know all the main players of this current arc has got to be at the very frikken least top level VCs to be of any use. kaien is mediocre by comparison. as a member of one of the 5 noble families, compared to members of the other noble families we've seen, namely yoruichi and byakuya, he's crap.
charge of the Vizards and also was the one of that took the longest of the Vizards to beat her hollow which is implied to be an indecation of how strong they are.
implied by who? you? is it implied anywhere in bleach that A taking longer than B to learn his zanpakutou's name than B means A's zanpakutou is more powerful? yes, ichigo took the longest time to beat his hollow, and we know being the shounen hero his hollow is quite likely the most powerful. but is it implied anywhere in bleach that what applies to ichigo also applies to others?
yachiru's also "in charge" of the female shinigami, and tasuki also abuses ichigo, doesn't mean shit. what we see in real battles is that vaizard hiyori was crushed like an ant by hollow ichigo in shikai mode with a single hand and scared shitless. and she was totally EXPECTING the hollow. compare that to byakuya's composure against UNEXPECTED hollow ichigo in BANKAI or one armed unreleased grimmjow against UNEXPECTED VAIZARD (that's hollow+shinigami powers) ichigo in BANKAI. you find me another leader in bleach this lame and i'll agree with you.
[QUOTE=kagato3;818844]Lets see chapters 190 - 222 she has been shown in
kaien's death is no state secret. both ganju and kukaku could and should have known the details. their current behavior indicates either ignorance or denial. stuff like "rukia didn't leave with an explanation" "never told the details" are lame excuses because they're not babies, it's also their responsibility to learn the facts. deep inside it's kukaku who doesn't want to hear the real explanation, because her brother was possessed and died a pretty lame death.
what isshin hates the most is not the hollow who killed masaki, or the shinigami who was responsible for karakura at that time, it's HIS OWN inability to protect his wife, even though he didn't have any powers at the time, because he's a MAN. only sissies go all the way to find excuses and dump blame and hatred on others
kukaku should have apologized/thanked rukia on behalf of her brother, she should have apologized to ukitate for letting him down. it's humiliating indeed, but admitting the humiliating fact like the germans is way better than living in denial like the japs.
You need to reread chpt 181. Kukaku was told by Ukitake what had happend a long time ago and held no blame to Rukia or the shinigami for his death. She was ticked that Rukia herself never apologized for or explained what happend. She basicly just drop off this body covered in swordwounds. And Ganju stated himself to Ichigo before they entered the inner city that he was very young when it happend so he did not know all the details of Kaien's death but did know that Kaien was killed by swords and had not blamed his death on the shinigami that killed him.
yet VC gin gracefully and effortlessly finishes failed experiments. VC gin >> kaien. at best he was a low level VC. and we know all the main players of this current arc has got to be at the very frikken least top level VCs to be of any use. kaien is mediocre by comparison. as a member of one of the 5 noble families, compared to members of the other noble families we've seen, namely yoruichi and byakuya, he's crap.
You mean the same hollows being held at bay by 4 barely trained Shinigamis? The same hollows that major power was to cloak their presence? The same hollows that Gin knew where they were and what thier ablities were? Oh yes thats exactly what happend with Kaien. Oh wait no it's not. The hollow that killed Kaien wiped out a squad of fully trained Shinigamis, had completely differnt powers, was an almost complete unkown, and he was killed because it's powers let it merge with him.
implied by who? you? is it implied anywhere in bleach that A taking longer than B to learn his zanpakutou's name than B means A's zanpakutou is more powerful? yes, ichigo took the longest time to beat his hollow, and we know being the shounen hero his hollow is quite likely the most powerful. but is it implied anywhere in bleach that what applies to ichigo also applies to others?
It's common sence that the stronger the hollow, the stronger the powers, the longer it takes to beat. Learning a zanpakutou name is irelevent as that is in no way the same or even similar.
yachiru's also "in charge" of the female shinigami, and tasuki also abuses ichigo, doesn't mean shit. what we see in real battles is that vaizard hiyori was crushed like an ant by hollow ichigo in shikai mode with a single hand and scared shitless. and she was totally EXPECTING the hollow. compare that to byakuya's composure against UNEXPECTED hollow ichigo in BANKAI or one armed unreleased grimmjow against UNEXPECTED VAIZARD (that's hollow+shinigami powers) ichigo in BANKAI. you find me another leader in bleach this lame and i'll agree with you.
You're claiming she is weak because an unreleased vaizard hiyori was taken off guard by the speed of released hollow Ichigo who then crushed her throat untill she passed out?
how did aizen exp with hollows in the first place w/o the orb of distortion? some branch of kidou?
NoSanninWa
2007-02-02, 02:27
Probably kidou; we never heard any useful details.
But this isn't the thread to discuss it further.
Anyway back to the topic!
Their better be a connection cause it won't make sense why they are so alike
hitokirigirl
2007-02-03, 13:12
Anyway back to the topic!
Their better be a connection cause it won't make sense why they are so alike
they better have NO connection, otherwise it would suck to have (again) some reincarnation theory or something.
Besides, as Ganju would say, Shiba Kaien is a bit too chummy (same goes for Kuukaku and Ganju). Ichigo is (was) rather solitary and not that talkative.
Melodymix
2007-02-05, 23:13
they better have NO connection, otherwise it would suck to have (again) some reincarnation theory or something.
Besides, as Ganju would say, Shiba Kaien is a bit too chummy (same goes for Kuukaku and Ganju). Ichigo is (was) rather solitary and not that talkative.
Who said it's another reincarnation twist.(Well, most likey it is) but it would be kinda stupid if it was "They look the same. End of story"
hitokirigirl
2007-02-06, 04:08
Who said it's another reincarnation twist.(Well, most likey it is) but it would be kinda stupid if it was "They look the same. End of story"
They don't look really the same to me : only the haircut.
As for the personnality (the big mouth), Renji is pretty the same. You can add other shinigami as well.
Anyway, as long as it is not some reincarnation twist as you said :cool:
Melodymix
2007-02-06, 04:24
They don't look really the same to me : only the haircut.
As for the personnality (the big mouth), Renji is pretty the same. You can add other shinigami as well.
Anyway, as long as it is not some reincarnation twist as you said :cool:
Haha, mst likey it is tho:heh:
NoSanninWa
2007-02-06, 05:33
They don't look really the same to me : only the haircut.
As for the personnality (the big mouth), Renji is pretty the same. You can add other shinigami as well.
Anyway, as long as it is not some reincarnation twist as you said :cool:
They look quite similar to me. The only differences between them are the color of their hair and the scrunchiness of their eyebrows. (Ichigo has brow wrinkles and Kaien does not.)
Elegant Destruction
2007-02-06, 16:27
I do think ichigo may really be the reincarnation of kaien. i mean it does explain why they look so alike and why he has a hollow inside him *who, notably doesn't know who or what he is - as shown during his fight with Byakuka (spell?) *
and kaien did say to rukia, as long as she is in this squad, he is on her side until death and beyond, and we are now in the 'beyond' bit. ^_<
I know this is all just theory, and there is absolutely no evidence one way or the other, just 'suggestions' left behind by the author, but it does make a lot of sense.
It also sort of reminds me of karma, aizen started his own downfall when he attempted deathgodlization of hollows and then released it, who got into kaien, and now its all coming back to him with a bite as now ichigo & the hollow can now properly join and thus become vastly more powerful.
ok, i think i chattered on long enough, i will end it there. lol
Melodymix
2007-02-06, 16:27
They look quite similar to me. The only differences between them are the color of their hair and the scrunchiness of their eyebrows. (Ichigo has brow wrinkles and Kaien does not.)
Yea, plus unlike Detictive Conan, or Inuyasha the characters aren't drawn so similar. Like having the same eyes or face shape etc.
but to me Kaien looks more similar to Hisagi from 9th Squad(only his hair) lol
Kaien reincarnated is Ichigo IMO but I dont like jumping to conclusions and I am indiffrent on this . Kaien is a too minor character to bother about . Still here are the three reasons to justify or my observations
- Rukia's first love is Kaien ( Renji = 2nd love lit translation ) . So it indirectly supports IchigoXRukia
- Similarities Physically
- Similarities Behaviour / Mannerism
* If someone wants to debunk this feel free to , as I said Kaien is a minor chracter and I really dont care
EDIT :
Abarai Renji
Abarai: "flatter" or "recess"; "scatter"; "well"
Renji: "yearning love"; "next in a sequence"
notes: "Renji" is literally translated as a "second love"
cellardoor
2007-02-06, 19:00
- Rukia's first love is Kaien ( Renji = 2nd love lit translation ) . So it indirectly supports IchigoXRukia
rukia and renji barely saw each other after rukia was adopted which means, if there was a love btw rukia and renji, renji must be first by chronology. :confused:
rukia and renji barely saw each other after rukia was adopted which means, if there was a love btw rukia and renji, renji must be first by chronology. :confused:
Rukia and Renji were buddies as kids , eventhough love blossomed it would be trivial/ignored as their main aim was to survive at first then to become shinigami . There is a saying after sepration you dicover how much that person meant to you ( adoption ). So both didnt undertsand their relationship ( love ) till they were distanced by society and etiquette revovling Nobility .
Its confirmed renji loves Rukia but not vice versa . If you could take Rukia's behavioural pattern towards Renji as evidence then yes
cellardoor
2007-02-06, 19:18
Rukia and Renji were buddies as kids , eventhough love blossomed it would be trivial/ignored as their main aim was to survive at first then to become shinigami . There is a saying after sepration you dicover how much that person meant to you ( adoption ). So both didnt undertsand their relationship ( love ) till they were distanced by society and etiquette revovling Nobility .
Its confirmed renji loves Rukia but not vice versa . If you could take Rukia's behavioural pattern towards Renji as evidence then yes
IMHO, it doesnt seem like rukia was in love with renji or kaien but what i mentioned in the previous post is order of the dates. anyway, it is not such a big deal ;)
IMHO, it doesnt seem like rukia was in love with renji or kaien but what i mentioned in the previous post is order of the dates. anyway, it is not such a big deal ;)
IMO Actually Rukia was in love with Kaien ( Yeah I know Kaien , she could have done better :heh: ) . Didnt you not notice those big purple fangirl eyes staring at every little thing Kaine did with admiration . She kept her feelings locked inside her or refused to accept them simply coz Kaien was married
cellardoor
2007-02-06, 19:36
IMO Actually Rukia was in love with Kaien ( Yeah I know Kaien , she could have done better :heh: ) . Didnt you not notice those big purple fangirl eyes staring at every little thing Kaine did with admiration . She kept her feelings locked inside her or refused to accept them simply coz Kaien was married
there is that possibility but it seems to me like it was an admiration, or kind of childish love which we have for teachers( i don't know if you have fallen for a teacher in the school but i actually had one :D ) or like that. i saw that looks and that fangirl eyes and doubt it is love. and i dont know the answer but more likely a childish crush IMHO :eyebrow:
I would define it as ' Puppy Love ' but love none the less isnt it ? :D
cellardoor
2007-02-06, 19:43
I would define it as ' Puppy Love ' but love none the less isnt it ? :D
i'm sorry, i'd rather not to call it love :D it makes me feel a little bit stupid :heh:
btw, not to be off topic, i dont think ichigo is reincarnation of kaien, i feel like ichigo should be more special. there should be a satisfying explanation of his incredible reiatsu.
there should be a satisfying explanation of his incredible reiatsu.
There is , we here have a thoery
Ichigo is the decendant of SS King hence that reatsu
THREAD :SS King Thread (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=28848)
My pet theroy is that Isshin, and by extention Ichigo, are part of the shiba clan,(perhaps Kaien's elder brother, cousin or uncle) who was in part responsable for the down fall of his clan, possably a frame up by a slick VC in glasses that has the power to make illusions. Kuukaku's "debt" to Uruhara is that she helped Isshin escape.
The main reason I don't like the reincarnation theroies is that all of them seem to have a major timeing issue. I'm fairly sure that Kaien's death happend at least 30 if not almost 45 years ago due to Ganju's ageing. I can't think of anyone from SS that has aged faster then 1 year for every 10, and Ganju has looked to have aged around 4 to 5 years from Kaien's death.
The Small One
2007-02-07, 00:06
I don't think Rukia ever loved Kaien. She admired him, and probably liked him more than the others, since he treated her normal, but it wasn't love.
The main reason I don't like the reincarnation theroies is that all of them seem to have a major timeing issue. I'm fairly sure that Kaien's death happend at least 30 if not almost 45 years ago due to Ganju's ageing.
Though persoally I don't like the reincarnation theory, I have to say that it isn't really a good argument, since we don't know how long it takes for someone to get reborn. Maybe it really takes 30 years for the soul to be reborn, maybe it happens instantly, we just don't know.
I don't think Rukia ever loved Kaien. She admired him, and probably liked him more than the others, since he treated her normal, but it wasn't love.
Though persoally I don't like the reincarnation theory, I have to say that it isn't really a good argument, since we don't know how long it takes for someone to get reborn. Maybe it really takes 30 years for the soul to be reborn, maybe it happens instantly, we just don't know.
True, but it just doesn't feel right to me.
Latest manga chapter
It's still too early to tell, but the latest manga chapter may throw in some kinks into some theories in this thread, depending on the true identity of that new espada.
Yea, Kaien's back in Chapter 262!
Elegant Destruction
2007-02-10, 05:09
Yea, Kaien's back in Chapter 262!
Oh MY God.... *in total shock*
Finally!
Ichigo does not and never did = Kaien. That much is certain. And we can put that theory to rest because Kaien's alive and in the flesh, and and currently an extremely dorky espada with Dissociative Identity Disorder. Maybe Ichigo and him can compare notes on hollow suppression ;).
That means Orihime is less likely to be Miyako, and that's why KT never pursued the theory. The man's a genius.
SaraPandora27
2007-02-20, 21:10
Finally!
Ichigo does not and never did = Kaien. That much is certain. And we can put that theory to rest because Kaien's alive and in the flesh, and and currently an extremely dorky espada with Dissociative Identity Disorder. Maybe Ichigo and him can compare notes on hollow suppression ;).
That means Orihime is less likely to be Miyako, and that's why KT never pursued the theory. The man's a genius.
I agree with you. I can never compare Orihime with Miyako. I've asked for a concrete evidence and so far, I've gotten none except for vague assumptions by other people.
I guess the appearance of Kaien disproves all reincarnation theories. My question is, which side is he in? We can only find out in the next chapter I'm afraid. Maybe there's a possibility that he might have a second personality as well? *(hollow personality)*
Time shall tell. But I can't wait for the update. It'll suck for Rukia tho
whatasob
2007-02-21, 20:19
im actually pretty sure that kaien and ichigo have nothing to do with one another, due to conflicts in my beliefs.
i think that there's a cycle between hollows/shinigamis and people in the real world, so that if u die in the real world, you become a hollow or shinigami, and vice versa. therefore, if kaien died in SS, then ichigo would be born. while this theory holds for the moment, it clashes with my belief that ichigo is SS’s lost king. the chapter with ichigo and hichigo’s little exchange of a king and his horse was too provocative for me, and i’m really confident kubo wouldn’t have used those exact words by mere coincidence. so by that logic, either arroniro isn’t ichigo, ichigo isn’t the king, the reincarnation model isn’t accurate, or (the most likely weak link for me) the two have nothing to do with one another, despite how physically similar they may appear.
Melodymix
2007-02-25, 00:39
Yea same here. Although it's weird how they look sooooo similar. Probably to get audience's attention though...
pothead21
2007-02-25, 00:40
lol, idk i havent gotten that far :p
Okay the manga is up to chapter 266 and it's still bugging me! It's like, hurry up and spill it already!
Melodymix
2007-04-03, 01:35
Too bad that ugly Espada wasn't Kaien. But atleast we got more Kai x Ruki flashback. Lol
I'm startin to think there is no connection between them and KT drew them similar to get our attention :heh:
amOKchen
2007-04-03, 02:13
I dont like the reincarnation theory, id rather see them have a family relation.
Bronwen Stx
2007-04-04, 00:51
Yea same here. Although it's weird how they look sooooo similar. Probably to get audience's attention though...
Well...:p if you think about it, Shuuhei could be part of that Ichigo look-alike as well...I don't think it's weird so much as I think Kubo is trying to do some major tranference concerning Rukia. Kaien is deader than dead and had a wife and I think he's progressively working on Rukia moving on from that past to making new ones with Ichigo (platonic or otherwise).
In some ways, I think Kaien is a bit of an older, more mature version of Ichigo with a less painful past (his mother being killed) ever since 268 provided as some insight on Kaien and Rukia.
For the record, I do think Rukia loved him selflessly.
Melodymix
2007-04-04, 01:35
Well...:p if you think about it, Shuuhei could be part of that Ichigo look-alike as well...I don't think it's weird so much as I think Kubo is trying to do some major tranference concerning Rukia. Kaien is deader than dead and had a wife and I think he's progressively working on Rukia moving on from that past to making new ones with Ichigo (platonic or otherwise).
In some ways, I think Kaien is a bit of an older, more mature version of Ichigo with a less painful past (his mother being killed) ever since 268 provided as some insight on Kaien and Rukia.
For the record, I do think Rukia loved him selflessly.
Yea, I think she did love him but didn't take it seriously since he was older and had a wife. If he was younger and didn't have a wife I think they made an awsome couple though. Lol
cellardoor
2007-04-04, 16:28
I had never been fond of the Ichigo being Kaien's reincarnation theory but after I saw ch268, I wouldn't mind if the theory was true XD I really wouldn't mind it if it meant Ichigo will become a man like Kaien ^___^
Melodymix
2007-04-05, 23:41
Same here, I don't mind the reincarnation theory no matter how common it is in anime:D
So sweet how Rukia has Kaien's heart:love:
Kazuma77
2008-04-26, 04:05
Which episode was when Kaien brought Rukia some tea and they sat by the river ( i think?) and was caught by 3rd seat Sentarō and Kiyone and started to tease them they are in love :p but they never denied it or argue that tease:D
Renjis_Girl7
2008-05-03, 02:33
I think that since Rukia was so close to Kaien, that she is becoming attached to Ichigo.
I doubt it can be a reincarnation since ichigo is like 15 years old right??
Unless the incident involving rukia and kaien happened more than 15 years ago.
HayashiTakara
2008-05-03, 10:45
Nope, no correlation.
Ichigo can't be a reincarnation because...Kaein's soul was inside Espada 9, Kaein wasn't able to enter the reincarnation cycle, so theres no way they can have that sort of relation.
BleachOD
2008-05-09, 03:17
Nope, no correlation.
Ichigo can't be a reincarnation because...Kaein's soul was inside Espada 9, Kaein wasn't able to enter the reincarnation cycle, so theres no way they can have that sort of relation. I disagree. Only his memories where inside of 9. He was killed by Rukia. So Ichigo could be the reincarnation of Kaien as well.
HayashiTakara
2008-05-09, 03:44
Er.. no, his soul was devoured by the hollow, Its impossible for Ichigo to be a reincarnate.
Daito-kun
2008-05-09, 03:49
reincarnation, ha..... can be, death of kaien sure happend before Ichigo's birth, so i cant see why not....
Edit: almost forgot - Kaien was killed by Rukia with her zanpakto, meaning - his soul was purified and able to enter reincornation circle))) no problem) and.... OD - kaien - reincarnation of ichigo? i think that ichigo is reinkarnation of kaien - meaning ichigo was kaien in his previous life, right?
BleachOD
2008-05-09, 09:43
reincarnation, ha..... can be, death of kaien sure happend before Ichigo's birth, so i cant see why not....
Edit: almost forgot - Kaien was killed by Rukia with her zanpakto, meaning - his soul was purified and able to enter reincornation circle))) no problem) and.... OD - kaien - reincarnation of ichigo? i think that ichigo is reinkarnation of kaien - meaning ichigo was kaien in his previous life, right? I was tired you know damn well...I meant the other way around.
HT tis not impossible. For one thing....Kaien's body was taken over. When he died Mestacia died too. Aizen created made him so that he'd return to HM even after death. He was then consumed by Gluntoneria whom had the ability to retain the powers of those he consumed, living or dead.
Mestacia had only fused with Kaien's body not soul.<---he is a soul. But they can bleed so maybe they have souls. Since techinally they are spriits but none walk through walls and they can grow from Adulthood. So I see them as not so much as dead rather as beings from and alternate world that. But we can not exist with out the other (Living and the dead.)
Glutoneria was able to retain his memories and abilities.
(Probably due to the synapses and the brain) But he WAS NOT Kaien, only a facsimile of him. . Technically as Dai-to -kun( <--I meant to type it like that) said. Rukia killed that hollow so he was purified and technically his soul passed on. He entered the reincarnation life-death-birth cycle. Which would account for Kaien's body returning to HM and not his. So if you think about it. Glutoneria only ate Kaien's husk and neither soul was present. Because they had already died.
Dai-to-kun. you are only half right. Shinigami purify Hollows of the sins they committed as Hollows. So that they can pass on and rejoin the cycle. Shinigami die. Some believe they turn into spirit particles and become part of SS. But if that were so. "The two worlds are constantly exchanging souls" Would be false. They are reborn in the living world. Hence Kaien could be Ichigo...But I doubt it.
Daito-kun
2008-05-09, 14:57
OD, I doubt it too) But there is such posibility) ... I don't think thats even matters. Kaien, first of all, Rukia's past, burden on her soul, that she must overcome. Ichigo - her present, and, i believe, future. If you ask me, there's no need to merge those two existances)))
P.S. "Dai-to-kun"... i like it) it's kina hard to explain what kind of voice i imagine reading this, but i like it))))
BleachOD
2008-05-09, 16:55
OD, I doubt it too) But there is such posibility) ... I don't think thats even matters. Kaien, first of all, Rukia's past, burden on her soul, that she must overcome. Ichigo - her present, and, i believe, future. If you ask me, there's no need to merge those two existances)))Shipping aside...
I doubt it because if he were, I don't think # 9 would have appeared in that form. And by now KT would have hinted that, it was so and that's why he is so strong. Or had his own powers.
Besides I don't want Ichigo to be anyone but Ichigo. So reincarnation is out
P.S. "Dai-to-kun"... i like it) it's kina hard to explain what kind of voice i imagine reading this, but i like it)))) Now I am wondering if you hear it like I do. (I am glad that I am not the only who supplies voices when reading)
I hear a voice that sounds like Nobuo Tobita- Akabane Kurodo, Get Backers
HayashiTakara
2008-05-09, 18:36
Er no again. Ichigo is strong because
His dad is a shinigami of captain level, you didn't forget that did you? Its why Karen and to an Extent Yuzu is so sensitive to spirits.
King Lycan
2008-05-09, 22:03
I disagree. Only his memories where inside of 9. He was killed by Rukia. So Ichigo could be the reincarnation of Kaien as well.
That smells like inuyasha:uhoh::uhoh: ._. Kikoyo and Kagome
But i don't think their is any connection between ichigo and Kaien :rolleyes:
BleachOD
2008-05-10, 09:30
Er no again. Ichigo is strong because
His dad is a shinigami of captain level, you didn't forget that did you? Its why Karen and to an Extent Yuzu is so sensitive to spirits. No shit sherlock's...Your point?
So is Byakuya's dad...But Ichigo pwned him. His greatness lies in being himself.
He could still be the son of Isshin and Kaien's reincarnation. He's only 15 and we don't know just how long ago Kaien died. It's not impossible for him to be both. (I just don't want him to be)
HT...That's not a spoiler. Only to dubbies...
HayashiTakara
2008-05-10, 09:42
Espada 9 specifically said that he IS Kaein, as he consumed his soul. You just want Kaein to be Ichigo. Espada 9 gains his powers by consumption, every soul he eats he gains their memories, personality and powers.
Now we're getting metaphysical. If you have someone's memories, personality and powers inside of you, does that mean you have their soul too :S? I do rather doubt it, personally. I will say this. If espada 9 had only eaten an empty husk/body, he wouldn't have gained any powers or stuff from it. At least that seems plausible to me. So, when he ate Metastacia, there must still have been something of Kaien in him.
It's almost impossible for us to pin down whether that counts as Kaien's soul or not. The only way we could say that there was something of Kaien's soul there was if we had seen some indication that he was in espada 9 still suffering, or trying to fight his control. Without that, it's just speculation either way.
HayashiTakara
2008-05-10, 11:01
Er... Kaein was already a spirit... Shinigamis don't have "bodies", now if he was human, then it becomes a little more complicated, but Hollows consume spirits/souls not the physical being of a person.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2748/14mj5.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14mj5.jpg)
Kaien's body is shown in chapter 115 . Its also been mentioned in the past, Ganju remembers Rukia as the shinigami who dragged Kaien's body .Furthermore the body containing Kaien Metastacia disintegrated and regenerated in HM, its clearly mentioned by Espada9 in chapter 267
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2969/08ki0.jpg
BleachOD
2008-05-12, 09:36
Er... Kaein was already a spirit... Shinigamis don't have "bodies", now if he was human, then it becomes a little more complicated, but Hollows consume spirits/souls not the physical being of a person. Hello that was the bullshit he told Rukia to fuck with her mind. he said that wasn't true. Geta posted part of it...
They bleed , they have a nervous system...I never seen any walk through walls or people, what do you means they don't have bodies? (I lust after Ichigo..a HOT BOD!)
They are simply bodies that exist on another spiritual plane.
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2748/14mj5.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14mj5.jpg)
Kaien's body is shown in chapter 115 . Its also been mentioned in the past, Ganju remembers Rukia as the shinigami who dragged Kaien's body .Furthermore the body containing Kaien Metastacia disintegrated and regenerated in HM, its clearly mentioned by Espada9 in chapter 267
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2969/08ki0.jpg Thanks for that...
I stand corrected....
Ok so Kaiens body didn't go with Metastacia..
But Metastacia fused with him (And the way he spoke to Rukia you can see he had access to his mind) and took Kaiens memory with him to HM. So #9 wasn't Kaien he was a facsimile of him
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