Ichigo's hollow powers [Archive]

peter2004

2005-12-31, 22:11

:heh: Since the episode discussion threads are being flooded with theories about this, I think it's time it got a thread of it's own to relieve some pressure. Please feel free to add more theories and dismiss or validate other theories.

So far the main theories are:

1. He got it from the pit when he almost died/turned in to a hollow.
2. Rukia trasfered it to him when she gave him shinigami powers.
3. He is a reincarnation of Kaien which was turned in to a hollow before he died.
4. His own shinigami were a hollow hybrid to begin with and got unlocked along with his shinigami powers in the pit.
5. He inherited it from his mother and/or father.
6. Urahara advertedly put Ichigo in the pit knowing it would make him into a hybrid hollow.
7. The hougyoku affected Ichigo's own shinigamai powers when he was around Rukia not when she transferred her powers.
8. A combination of 3 and 5. One of Ichigo's ancestors is the reincarnation of Kaien.
9. A modification of 1. The hollow Ichigo turned up to stop him from becoming a full hollow so he wouldn't lose his host.
10. An extension of 4. The hollow couldn't take over because Rukia's powers where somehow surpressing him.

My theory:
The hougyoku within Rukia didn't affect Ichigo directly in the shinigami transfer. Since they were Rukia's powers they might have gotten immune to the hougyoku or something. But maybe Ichigo's own hidden powers were more susceptible and when he spent time with Rukia they gor more and more corrupted. Much like the way Ichigo leaked powers to others he might have absorbed the hollow powers from Rukia. So in the pit when he almost died the hollow came out and saved him, like it has done numerous times since then.

Optional addon to my theory:
Rukia was also very close to Kaien and spent alot of time with him. And if Ichigo is the reincarnation of Kaien or somehow otherwise connected to him, this might have some significance as well. Maybe because the soul got exposed in both the spirit world and the real world it had some kind of extra influence.

NoSanninWa

2006-01-01, 01:45

Oh dear. I don't want to ban anyone, so listen up.

Here's the deal for everyone to cope with if they have either read the manga or heard about what happens after the coming filler arc: If you bring up anything that hasn't yet been mentioned in the anime, you had better use a spoiler tag. This particular spoiler won't be mentioned until after the filler arc, so you'll have to keep your lips zipped for a long time.

It will be tempting to use your spoiler knowlege to debate a particular point, so don't even think about debating it. You know what I mean. For any anime-only watchers reading this, don't worry about it too much if manga readers seem antsy about a particular point. They don't really know the answer, but some of them think that something is a lot more important than it might turn out to be.

Now here's a tutorial for using spoilers:

Finally we know the truth! Ichigo's inner hollow manifested as a result of eating his dad's cooking.

Will create this:
Ichigo's inner hollow manifested as a result of eating his dad's cooking. I'm shocked how bad a chef that old man really is!

It seems that the only way for him to bring his hollow under control and gain its powers for himself is for him to eat the cooking of the girl he loves. I guess the way to a man's heart really is through his stomach. Now we're down to a cook-off between Ururu and Nemu! We'll finally know which girl Ichigo really loves, when we see whose food can grant him the ultimate power of a true hollow-shigami fusion.

I hope that the right girl is Ururu, since Nemu is such a bad cook that she nearly killed Ishida with her last attempt to make takoyaki for Ichigo. He's a real trooper to try recipees intended for Ichigo, but I suspect the real reason is that he's just happy to eat her food. :naughty: Maybe she'll eventually realize who really loves her, by who she brings joy to with her cooking. By comparison Ururu's food is so good that if she can bring the hollow under control, Ichigo might actually be able to defeat Aizen's ultimate shushi combo. I doubt badly made food can give Ichigo that much power even if he does love the girl.

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-01, 06:57

i think that we are missing the bigger picture here........how in the hell did Urahara inbed the Hougyoku in Rukia's soul with/out her rembering it ?........thats buggin the crap out of me......

My theory:
The hougyoku within Rukia didn't affect Ichigo directly in the shinigami transfer. Since they were Rukia's powers they might have gotten immune to the hougyoku or something. But maybe Ichigo's own hidden powers were more susceptible and when he spent time with Rukia they gor more and more corrupted. Much like the way Ichigo leaked powers to others he might have absorbed the hollow powers from Rukia. So in the pit when he almost died the hollow came out and saved him, like it has done numerous times since then.

i beg to differ....i think that it did have something to do with everyone else's powers...it could be a catalyst of some sort for spirit power......but then again ichigo was able to break free from Rukia's binding spell before he even became a shinigami...

and i stopped reading the manga 'cuz i was getting way ahead and i didnt like it...i likke to see averything in the anime.....but i still love the manga

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-01, 08:00

:confused: Were is your problem? There are dozens of possibilies how this could have happened: He could have done it while she was sleeping. Or he could possess a memory altering technology.
And the most simple, and probably correct, solution: Do you remember the time, whe you were still an infant? Rukia was abandoned, when she was a baby, so Urahara probably did it at this time... however, this is off-topic in this thread.

Not to the real topic:
What exactly is the point of this thread? What do you want to know?
Are you asking, how he got this inner hollow, or are you asking why?

There shouldn't be a question on the when: He obviously gained it, during the time in Urahara's pit. He didn't show any sign of a hollow before.

I have a new theory: Up to this time, Ichigo was a normal human with sprit powers, but before throwing him into the pit, Urahara killed him and turned him into a spirit, to become a Shinigami. Now as we know since the first chapter/episode, Ichigo has a huge amount of spirit power, and we also know from Aizen's explanation, that Shinigamis and Hollows are limited in their power.
My guess is, that Ichigo's natural spirit power was too much to fit into a normal Shinigami or Hollow, so his soul searched for a way to fit all its powers into a new vessel, so it created this split personality.

sleeping?.........LMAO.......but u do bring up a good point as to when she was abandoned.....and im only asking the question because im sure im goin to enjoy the answer......

but how do u know that one body can only hold so much spirt power?.....i dont think thats the case here though....

gangsta905_04

2006-01-01, 12:30

For Anime Watchers and NoSanninWa,

This was discussed in episode 61, or 62 of Bleach. May i remind you...the Gigai that Urahara offered Rukia?

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-01, 13:36

For Anime Watchers and NoSanninWa,

This was discussed in episode 61, or 62 of Bleach. May i remind you...the Gigai that Urahara offered Rukia?

is this guy dense?..........you cant hide hougyoku in the gigai.....c'mon buddy the rest of the class is page on 39........

NoSanninWa

2006-01-02, 02:59

That's not what gangsta905_04 means. He is saying that when Uruhara put Rukia into that gigai, he could have put the Hougyoku into Rukia's soul. She might not have noticed anything since he was already operating on her.

This theory suggests that the Hougyoku was put into Rukia AFTER she left Soul Society, instead of before she left, as everyone else believes. Since Aizen implies that she had the Hougyoku before she went AWOL (remember that he was looking for her), then it is not likely to be correct.

hellsfire

2006-01-02, 05:03

NoSanninWa

2006-01-02, 05:12

Sorry, but I don't understand how or why you think that he inherited being a hollow from his Mother? Do you think that his mother was actually a hollow? This is something that seems to contradict the show since his mother was eaten by a hollow and they have never been shown to prey on their own kind.

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-02, 07:06

The thing is people keep saying that Rukia could have given the Hollow powers to Ichigo when she transfered her powers BUT I recall hearing that rukia got the (forget the word) when she got the fox body. Didn't Aizen say that Urahara (sorry if i got name wrong my memory often fails me with names so lets say Shop keeper) tricked her when she lost her powers and didn't want to be kind but use her to hide the ( dont remember word) in her body.

My theroy is that he got it passed down from his Mothers side or something. Because he has em for a while after he is sent in pit (witch might also be how but i dougt it i think it just pulled it out a bit more) you see his soul slayer whats his name talking to the hollow version of Ichigo. Saying something along these lines "He will be your's dont worry."

Sorry if things have been explained other wise im only at episode 62 (its where lunar is)

P.S : i did best that i can with grammer :) im not that great of a speller lol. Its not really spelling thats my problem but it's making sentences...

....i just watched this episode again....and i think it has to be directly linked to the time when he got his shinigami powers back.......because even zangetsu is aware
of the other personality......i could say all sorts of crazy thing but i would just make a fool out of myself...

....and he said to him "train him well, his power will be mine one day"...

-EDIT-
...even ur corrections need corrections.....lol...im not trying to instigate....its just funny....

hellsfire

2006-01-02, 14:39

NoSanninWa : Sorry but I don't understand how or why you think that he inherited being a hollow from his Mother? Do you think that his mother was actually a hollow? This is something that seems to contradict the show since his mother was eaten by a hollow and they have never been shown to prey on their own kind.

response : Well it can't be from his father's side of the family. He and the little girl are the only ones who can't see ghosts in the family.

eLcHaKeTeRo : ...and he said to him "train him well, his power will be mine one day"...

response : Yea thats what i meant his soul slayer is aware of the hollow form of him and say's -^

P.S: can someone tell me how to do the quotes i don't remember 0_o

Grees

2006-01-02, 14:56

There's a quote button, use it. On the reply screen you'll see the code for quoting.

hellsfire

2006-01-02, 14:57

I see I see. Thanks =]

Ziv

2006-01-02, 14:58

Soluzar

2006-01-02, 18:31

his soul slayer isn't just aware of his hollow self. it's fused with his hollow. Don't you remember how in ichigo's mind, hollow ichigo particalizes and gets sucked into zangetsu as he's saying "train him well, his power will be mine one day"?

I found that part very hard to swallow. It has been shown that Zangetsu cares for Ichigo, and wants him to succeed, and be happy. Why then would Zangetsu betray Ichigo to his "inner hollow"?

Chikara

2006-01-02, 19:30

I think someone infused a hollow inside Ichigo, so that in the future it would take over and became a very very powerful soldier against the shinigami.

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-03, 01:07

Ururu is teh hawt. I hope ichigo taps that some day when its revealed how he got his soul

yeah, im a little confused as to the point that ur tryin to convey......do u want him to become a child molester?

I think someone infused a hollow inside Ichigo, so that in the future it would take over and became a very very powerful soldier against the shinigami.
why woudl you think that......i dont think that Ichigo's sole purpouse in life is to go to war against the shinigami of SS

I found that part very hard to swallow. It has been shown that Zangetsu cares for Ichigo, and wants him to succeed, and be happy. Why then would Zangetsu betray Ichigo to his "inner hollow"?
how exactly is Zangetsu betrying Ichigo, i dont get that part

his soul slayer isn't just aware of his hollow self. it's fused with his hollow. Don't you remember how in ichigo's mind, hollow ichigo particalizes and gets sucked into zangetsu as he's saying "train him well, his power will be mine one day"?

yeah, that kinda did freak me out a little, i dont even want to begin speculating because ill give myseld a headache

NoSanninWa

2006-01-03, 06:37

I'm not sure why you think that this was a betrayal by Zangetsu, even if you assume that Zangetsu is opposed to hollow-Ichigo. Obviously it is good for Ichigo to become stronger, even if hollow-Ichigo also wants it.

This is one thing that both Ichigo and hollow-Ichigo can equally benefit from. It has no bearing on who gets that strength in the end.

Grees

2006-01-03, 07:47

Perceive it as betrayal isnt half that weird, since Ichigo obviously suffers from multiple personality disorder (all death gods do, except for Kenpachi, who actually wants to be a nut like the others, but cant), Zangetsu is a personality on his own telling Ichi what to do and stuff, but hollow ichigo just want to take over and take care of business himself.

1.0.7.

2006-01-03, 07:48

we must note though..that ichigo's hollow isn't some mindless ghost on crack.. on what we can gather.. he knows what he's doing..
furthermore, it can't be that it just came out of uruhara's training
for one thing, he seems to be very well acquinted with zangetsu. if zangetsu has been ichigo's zanpuktou since forever (remember, the training was just suppose to release zangetsu), it also must be that this hollow has been in him since then?
also, the hollow said "he's strong you know" and that one day ichigo's power will be his.. this seems to be that this guy is a seperate entity and has been residing within ichigo for quite some time.

Soluzar

2006-01-03, 15:02

I'm not sure why you think that this was a betrayal by Zangetsu, even if you assume that Zangetsu is opposed to hollow-Ichigo. Obviously it is good for Ichigo to become stronger, even if hollow-Ichigo also wants it.
I don't see how anyone could see it as anything other than a betrayal. Hollow-Ichigo is plotting against Shinigami-Ichigo, with the co-operation of Zangetsu. What more can there be to say?

This is one thing that both Ichigo and hollow-Ichigo can equally benefit from. It has no bearing on who gets that strength in the end.This is true, but I think it was fairly clear in context that Zangetsu is co-operating with Hollow-Ichigo. If nothing else, he should have told Shinigami-Ichigo that the Hollow-Ichigo existed. It's always going to be betrayal in my eyes.

Besides Zangetsu isn't a real person for himself, he is just a part of Ichigo('s soul), so he can't really betray Ichigo in the first place, because it would be betraying himself.
The "inner hollow" is also Ichigo! Theay are basically all the same person, just a little bit different aspects of it.
I don't accept that premise, and never have. The hollow is a separate individual, as is Zangetsu. I'm utterly convinced of that. It just doesn't make sense for the Zanpakuto to be a part of the Shinigami. I'm aware that this is what they believe, but who said it was true?

Komataguri

2006-01-03, 16:18

I don't see how anyone could see it as anything other than a betrayal. Hollow-Ichigo is plotting against Shinigami-Ichigo, with the co-operation of Zangetsu. What more can there be to say?

This is true, but I think it was fairly clear in context that Zangetsu is co-operating with Hollow-Ichigo. If nothing else, he should have told Shinigami-Ichigo that the Hollow-Ichigo existed. It's always going to be betrayal in my eyes.

I don't accept that premise, and never have. The hollow is a separate individual, as is Zangetsu. I'm utterly convinced of that. It just doesn't make sense for the Zanpakuto to be a part of the Shinigami. I'm aware that this is what they believe, but who said it was true?

Why not agree to disagree.

Say, the soul of true Zanpakuto are born from the Shinigami that holds it, and then becomes its own personality.

That way you cover the independt creature, as well as its connection to the Shinigami

Soluzar

2006-01-03, 19:12

Why not agree to disagree.
But of course! There is no disagreement like an amiable disagreement. ^_^

Say, the soul of true Zanpakuto are born from the Shinigami that holds it, and then becomes its own personality. That's what I believe, sure enough. I believe that the Zanpakuto is a part of the Shinigami, but I don't believe that the Zanpakuto is just a "multiple personality" of the Shinigamu. I think that it may have separate goals, and different beliefs to the Shinigami from which it came. Check out Kenpachi. His Zanpakuto probably hates him.

Inkognito

2006-01-03, 23:49

As I recall, the zanpakutou isn't a separate entity but instead a reflection of the person's soul. The Shikai form is the embodiment of that reflection and then the Bankai form is the reflection of the concious individual.

It's like concious and subconcious, the sword's avatar is the subconcious and the shikai is it's embodiment. The Bankai is the embodiment of the conciousness.

edit - I believe hollow forms are simply the darkness to normal shinigami's light... Keeping in mind that perceptions of good and evil are vastly different from person to person... So what Happened with hollow-ichi and byakuya was the striking of the balance between dark and light, the yin and the yang. You can take your imagination from there~

Soluzar

2006-01-04, 02:54

Soluzar

2006-01-04, 15:26

He may have a seperate personality, but he is not a seperate individual, because he has no soul for himself. He is just a part of Ichigo.
It's like the little voices you hear inside your head, when you have to make an important decision.

Beeing a part of Ichigo, and having an own personality are two compltely independent aspects, but you are treating it as beeing the same.

Proof. I won't accept hearsay. There isn't any conclusive proof either way. What we have been told is merely what the Shinigami believe, and I don't accept that they are infallible. There's no way for you to win this one. The only answer is for you to accept that we differ. Your unsupported statements do not convince me.

Inkognito

2006-01-04, 19:33

That may be what the Shinigami believe - who says they know everything about it? I just don't buy any of that. You can't just keep repeating it and expect me to buy it. I re-state my position once and for all: Zangetsu has a separate personality. It is self-evident.

Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor?
Occam's Razor (also spelled Ockham's Razor), is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. It forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony or law of economy.

In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. Put into everyday language, it says

Numquam ponendo est pluritas sine necessitate. [Latin]
which translates to:

Multiples should never be used if not necessary.
or

"Shave off" (omit) unnecessary entities in explanations.
But a more commonly used translation is:

Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler.
For example, after a storm you notice that a tree has fallen. Based on the evidence of the storm and the fallen tree, a reasonable hypothesis would be that the storm blew down the tree — a hypothesis that requires you to suspend your disbelief very little, as there exist strong logical connections binding what you already know to this solution (seeing and hearing storms tends to indeed indicate the existence of storms; storms are more than capable of felling trees). A rival hypothesis claiming that the tree was knocked over by marauding 200-metre tall space aliens requires several additional assumptions, with various logical weaknesses resulting from inconsistencies with what is already known (concerning the very existence of aliens, their ability and desire to travel interstellar distances, their ability and desire to (non-)intentionally knock down trees and the alien biology that allows them to be 200 metres tall in terrestrial gravity), and is therefore less preferred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Using the Occam's Razor principle, the fact that we have been told and the fact that this is a shounen, the simplest way of interpreting the ichigo-zangetsu relationship is to go by what we are told. If you assume anything else you are very possibly reading far too into a manga/anime that is meant to entertain, not stimulate deep though and confuse. Assuming too much and ignoring what information has been given to us is absolute folly. If we are told what the relationship between ichigo and zangetsu is, I highly doubt we're being lied to.

Soluzar

2006-01-05, 00:57

Using the Occam's Razor principle, the fact that we have been told and the fact that this is a shounen, the simplest way of interpreting the ichigo-zangetsu relationship is to go by what we are told. If you assume anything else you are very possibly reading far too into a manga/anime that is meant to entertain, not stimulate deep though and confuse. Assuming too much and ignoring what information has been given to us is absolute folly. If we are told what the relationship between ichigo and zangetsu is, I highly doubt we're being lied to.
You are more than welcome to continue believing that. However, this series has constantly shown that it is more than just the average Shounen. You cannot convince me, and nor can anyone else. Stop trying.

I'm entirely familiar with Occam's Razor, but going on the observed evidence, that Zangetsu has clearly different motivations and plans than Ichigo, and that Zangetsu knows things that Ichigo does not, I can clearly see what the simplest answer is. Can you? I don't deny that the Shinigami and his Zanpakuto are linked in some extremely profound kind of a way, but I don't accept that the personality of the Zanpakuto is just an aspect of the Shinigami. I find no conclusive evidence to suggest that I should accept this premise. It's an extremely valid narrative device to have characters feeding the viewer with information which they believe to be true, but which may not, in fact, be true.

What I find hard to believe is that I just got a negrep for my posting in this thread. You know, this forum is rapidly starting to lose all appeal. if members are going to negrep me just for disagreeing with them, then that's pretty lame. Whoever you are, I hope you're impressed with yourself.

Grees

2006-01-05, 05:14

I dont believe in Soluzar's point of view, but you might wonder why is it that Ichigo got himself a old, weird guy with a beard, who looks like a hippie, to represent his soul thingie, really, how messed up must you be.

Zangetsu strike me as very old, much older then Ichigo, as if he had lived for thousand and thousands of years before Ichigo came along, and in that time he ponders, and have decided that the grunge hippie look is the ultimate look.
But then again a disorderly personality can be whatever he wants to be.

Oh well, i say let people believe whatever they want to believe. Like me, i believe that Ichigo is gay and Zangetsu is a pervert, no proof, but i say its true.

Soluzar

2006-01-05, 13:30

Then stop taking part in this thread! There is no use in just repeating your opinion again and again, without the will to change it.Well, technically, this thread is about Ichigo's powers as a hollow. The whole side-issue about Zangetsu is technically way off topic, and I am presenting reasons for my opinion. You can't convince me, because you aren't advancing any credible reasons for your opinion. Your beliefs are only supported by what a fallible character in the show has told you. Mine at least have a semblance of logic.

Why? What reason do you have to disbelieve, that he is an aspect of Ichigo?
The fact, that he has a different personality and other motivations is no proof. Just look at people with split personalities: They have completely seperate personalities, even working against each other and still are all part of one human.
OK then. If you want to argue that Ichigo really has a split personality, then you can do so. However, I find it hard to believe that any mangaka would create himself a protagonist who is mentally ill. That would not fit in with Occam's Razor at all! It's far simpler to assume that Zanpakuto are, in fact, a separate individual. You could explain away every instance of Zanpakuto individuality by citing Multiple Personality Disorder, but that would require you to believe that every Seated Shinigami is mentally ill! :heh:

Well, sometimes it happens that you get some neg rep... you shouldn't take it to heart. However, nobody should get negative reputation, just for disagreeing with someone. On the other hand, maybe it was your refusal to think about your opinion which brought you in this negative rep.
Hey, if anyone's not thinking about their opinion, it's you and the others who insist on believing the illogical premise that you have advanced in the face of all reason. I wouldn't normally bitch about negrep, but it's pissing me off. This forum appears to be all about groupthink, and I've never been a fan of that. I'm sorry that I re-registered, after the crash, to be blunt.

I dont believe in Soluzar's point of view, but you might wonder why is it that Ichigo got himself a old, weird guy with a beard, who looks like a hippie, to represent his soul thingie, really, how messed up must you be.

Zangetsu strike me as very old, much older then Ichigo, as if he had lived for thousand and thousands of years before Ichigo came along, and in that time he ponders, and have decided that the grunge hippie look is the ultimate look.
But then again a disorderly personality can be whatever he wants to be.
It's hardly conclusive evidence, but to me it is suggestive. I cannot believe that something as complex and apparently ancient as Zangetsu was created right along with Ichigo, barely 15 years ago. Thank you for at least considering my view.

MobiuS

2006-01-05, 14:03

You could explain away every instance of Zanpakuto individuality by citing Multiple Personality Disorder, but that would require you to believe that every Seated Shinigami is mentally ill! :heh:

You dont really have much going for you. Very few of those seated Shinigami are reasonable and sane individuals. Mayuri, Kenpachi, Yama-jii, Soi Fong and the rest dont act like normal individuals. :heh:

Nah Im just kidding. But dang ... those Shinigami arent normal logical guys! :rolleyes:

Soluzar

2006-01-05, 14:38

You dont really have much going for you. Very few of those seated Shinigami are reasonable and sane individuals. Mayuri, Kenpachi, Yama-jii, Soi Fong and the rest dont act like normal individuals. :heh:

Nah Im just kidding. But dang ... those Shinigami arent normal logical guys! :rolleyes:

I did think that as I wrote the comment, yeah. :heh:

Sacyn

2006-01-05, 16:58

What I don't get is that the hollow inside ichigo completely takes over control in a way where ichigo has to resist it to get control of his body back. I seriously doubt that Aizen would want to lose control of his own body and his own powers to a hollow in this way.

I think that what Aizen wants and what Ichigo has are two totally different things and quite possibly have nothing to do with each other either. Ichigo does have the innate ability of holding a lot of spirit power, so the hollow part inside of him might have been something that had been present before episode #1 :)

Then the hollow transformation in the pit might have been one of the first reactions to it.

Also, since ichigo's mother got killed by Hollows, it might have been a reaction to that a long time ago.

But anyway I don't know and can only speculate about this as a possibility. In this case, however, there is no possible way for us to be sure how ichigo got his "hollow" powers and what they really are.

Ichigo's powers also seem to have the unique effect of awakening powers within his friends, because if I'm not mistaken it was once mentioned earlier in the anime that it was due ichigo that the others obtained their powers (apart from the archer guy, that is).

Soluzar

2006-01-05, 17:02

Ichigo's powers also seem to have the unique effect of awakening powers within his friends, because if I'm not mistaken it was once mentioned earlier in the anime that it was due ichigo that the others obtained their powers (apart from the archer guy, that is).

This was indeed said of Inoue and Sado. However, this was before Ichigo went into the pit at Uruhara's store.

Sacyn

2006-01-05, 17:17

This was indeed said of Inoue and Sado. However, this was before Ichigo went into the pit at Uruhara's store.

The pit thing might've just created a reaction to his powers, not necessarily activated them. In which case these same powers could've been responsible for ichigo's tremendous amound of spirit power, his ability to see hollows and death gods (which happened after his mother died, again putting emphasis that a hollow or something might have entered his soul/body/etc. at that time) and so forth.

Conflicts arise when looking at ichigo's family, who all seem to have something special concerning death gods and that Don guy (if I'm not mixing up names, but I mean that weird ghost hunter guy >.>').

DrunkenRyder

2006-01-05, 18:13

I thinks it about time you guys read the manga. Because looking at months of fillers wont solve your questions.

Soluzar

2006-01-05, 18:26

The pit thing might've just created a reaction to his powers, not necessarily activated them. In which case these same powers could've been responsible for ichigo's tremendous amound of spirit power, his ability to see hollows and death gods (which happened after his mother died, again putting emphasis that a hollow or something might have entered his soul/body/etc. at that time) and so forth.
Oh yeah. Totally. What I'm saying is that Sado and Inoue both received their powers before Ichigo had any contact with his Hollow side. :)

Conflicts arise when looking at ichigo's family, who all seem to have something special concerning death gods and that Don guy (if I'm not mixing up names, but I mean that weird ghost hunter guy >.>').
Don Kanonji is the name you are looking for. BWO-HAHAAHAH! :heh:

I thinks it about time you guys read the manga. Because looking at months of fillers wont solve your questions.

I do read the manga, but I'm about 2 chapters behind due to being away from the computer a lot recently. When I read chapter 107, there hadn't been that much explained about Ichigo's powers yet. Just scraps and stuff that most anime viewers will have guessed...

MobiuS

2006-01-05, 21:14

shadowsoul

2006-01-06, 09:06

Well back in episode 17 Ichigo goes kinda berserk during the fight with Renji and has a personality sorta like hollow ichigo. Could this be an early sign of hollow ichigo?

soulfly

2006-01-08, 10:06

Karin can see ghosts. Does SHE have a Hollow in her? :confused:Anybody who has spirit power can see hollow.

Normal human does not have spirit power.

MobiuS

2006-01-08, 16:47

Anybody who has spirit power can see hollow.

Normal human does not have spirit power.

I said that cuz he implied Hollow Ichigo allowed him to see Ghosts in the past. Shinigami and Hollows as well. I pointed out Karin can see them, and she has no Hollow.

dznutz

2006-01-11, 16:27

He was bit by a Hollow at one point and he didn't know about it. most likely when the Hollow took his mom's life.

But a better alternative was that his "teacher" gave it to him secretly in one of his training sessions or in some of the medication he took. He is a crafty researcher with hidden motives after all.

Dionysus

2006-01-15, 03:31

I'm crazy so i believe Urahara put one of them thingys inside of Ichigo when he saved him from Renji and Byu, CAuse he never had it before he was secretly harassed by Urahara ... ... ... ... .... ...... Maybe i am crazy... :eyespin:

Morisato

2006-01-15, 04:40

There are a couple possibilities and those are...

1) Reincarnation of Kaien
2) He gained his hollow in the pit at the same time as his shinigami powers
3) He's the child of a shinigami and hollow
4) Urahara used the thing on him or through Rukia

voldy18

2006-01-16, 10:19

Mmm, let's not forget what canon says about Hollows: A Hollow is created when the soul degenerates and then loses its heart. It is this process that creates Hollows. Therefore I don't think you can be born as a Hollow or with Hollow powers. Not to forget, we don't know if it is even possible to inherit such powers.

Anyway, I think this process is also what happened with Ichigo in that pit, only that he didn't lose his heart and was therefore able to stop the transformation. However, I think it's possible that once even a tiny aspect of the soul is turned into a Hollow, it will always stay that way, because it is nonreversible. And that's how I think Hollow-Ichigo was born. And maybe to gain strength, he feeds on Ichigo's negative emotions, like anger, despair, etc.

soulfly

2006-01-16, 10:26

Well back in episode 17 Ichigo goes kinda berserk during the fight with Renji and has a personality sorta like hollow ichigo. Could this be an early sign of hollow ichigo?I believe during that time it wasn't the sign of hollow power, instead it could be Ichigo's own spirit power had been awaken, a shinigami-level spirit power of course.

I think Ichigo is special compare to others and this might not be related to the inner-hollow thingy. After all, he's a.....
not only shinigami-hollow hybrid.... but also shinigami-human hybrid as well :D

Wrong...
To be able to see hollows, you need a certain amount of spirit power...
Normal humans who have normal spirit powers are only able to see ghosts, but they can't see hollows or Shinigamis yet. Only with a significantly larger amount of spirit powers they are able to see those.
ahh.... no wonder Karin could see ghosts, but not hollows in the earlier episodes

voldy18

2006-01-16, 11:05

I don't think so... in this case, they wouldn't be able to cleanse hollows and send them to Soul Society, and the whole existence of the Shinigami would be unnecessary.
;)

That's not what I meant. I meant that Ichigo himself cannot turn back the already transformed part of his soul, thus the Hollow remains.

sceeZer

2006-01-18, 21:46

hmm im about 100% sure that ichigo got his hollow down in the pit. theres is nothing that say different. he was starting to go through the transformation and was able to stop it be4 it turned him completely but he still got a fair way into the transformation and a part of him was "stained" with the hollow. urahara already knew how to do this (aparently) so he did it to help ichigo out (and maybe see how it works seeing how he was a scientist)

as to how urahare put the hollow/shinigami thing in rukia. wasent it said in the episodes he put it in the foux body then gave it to rukia to hide it. with her losing her reiatsu she couldnt be tracked and the hollow/shinigami would remain a scret

to the whole zangetsu/ichigo thing (sorry for bringing this up again) i belive that zangetsu is a part of ichigo but not "created" in his mind. hes not a "alter ego" in my mind. if that were the case then everyone made their own zampaktou and could basiclly make it however they wanted if they just make the "alter ego" right? since if the shikai and bankai are enbodiment of the "soul" inside the sword then they made that themself...

sorry for rambeling but i just got into bleach and love discussing these things

Dionysus

2006-01-19, 02:33

Well i got a good idea.. Regarding the manga, Ichigo normally had the ability to see hollow he got that from his father, So upon the time when Rukia gave Ichigo the Subsititute powers the thingy Urahara put inside of her may have washed some of it's ability onto Ichigo combinding his Shinigami inheritance + The Thingy Rukia had, Could explain why he has such Spiritual Power and the Hollow Ability :eyebrow:

NoSanninWa

2006-01-19, 03:26

I think you're trying too hard. We've already got enough possible explanations to deal with.

jungleking

2006-01-21, 14:24

what I have heard that becoming a hollow has something to do with losing your heart.

So my theroy is Ichigo loses his mother that breaks his heart along with the bite that may of started an infection. Down in the pit he was begining to lose his heart there for the first meeting of the hollow spirit.

As for Zangetsu his form i.e. what he looks like is just what form a spirit guide for Ichigo would look like. Hence Renjis being an animal guide. I believe the spirt can be the same for thousands of year therefore having the knowledge to guide.

sceeZer

2006-01-21, 22:35

jungleking i totally agree with yu on the zampaktou thing. how could something that ichigo created in his mind have much knowledge? i think the soul of the sword has been around for thousands or at least hundreds

from what i know to become a hollow you have to be in "soul mode" so basiclyy dead. only time this happened to ichigo was down in the pit so no other way he could get the hollow other then that

DjTrizz

2006-01-23, 00:34

Eclipze

2006-01-23, 01:21

this is sorta on topic but has to do w/ powers in general, didn't want to create a separate topic for a simple question.

So it was already stated that when Shinigami enter the human world, there powers are reduced by 5x. Question is this, are Ichigo's powers reduced as well while he is in his world?
I believe that reduction is made by the shinigami themselves, or at least for people of certain rank (vice captain etc). It was more of a "rule".

Nakigoe

2006-01-23, 14:54

yeah they have their power reduced so as not to cause any unnessessary influence on the living world (like blowing it up or something)

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-23, 16:41

yeah they have their power reduced so as not to cause any unnessessary influence on the living world (like blowing it up or something)

but did they ever reduce his power in the human world? i dont remember them talking about it for him any way

sceeZer

2006-01-23, 16:49

dont think they did. thats why renji said he couldnt beat him since ichigo was fighting with the same strenght as in the real world and renji was 5 times stronger. but seemed like ichigo has gotten 5 times stronger since then too:D

Kona

2006-01-23, 18:43

but did they ever reduce his power in the human world? i dont remember them talking about it for him any way

No, This applies only to captains and vcs. Which ichigo is neither.

sceeZer

2006-01-23, 19:06

also this is something SS does in order to prevent interference in the living world as someone said. therefore ichigo does not have the power decrease

fishyfishy2k

2006-01-23, 19:47

Anyway anyone wondering if there are ways for ichigo to get stronger now without just hollow powers. Cause he's already achieved the highest level of Shinigami powers.
Anyway back on topic he even though hes not bound to all rules of the limits of a normal shinigami (im just saying since hes not bound to all of them he may be able to break limits) and his hollow/ichigo forms is a big jump of power as well. Somehow i have the hunch he may have different powers because he gave power to inoue and Chad that were different from a shinigami and maybe he too can also gain some powers over a shinigamis the same way but on himself i dunno. haha

Nakigoe

2006-01-23, 19:50

remember that he had his monster spirit force before he had his "hollow training" with urahara. that means that there is still something about ichigo that we dont know yet

rtwesen

2006-01-23, 20:03

Anyway anyone wondering if there are ways for ichigo to get stronger now without just hollow powers. Cause he's already achieved the highest level of Shinigami powers.

he still has to learn kidou and the secrets of his bankai (that usually takes 10 years to master). How about general sword fighting? I wouldn't say he's reached the peak of his shinigami powers. Peak-ing in shinigami power would be at Aizen's level.

Komataguri

2006-01-23, 21:20

yeah they have their power reduced so as not to cause any unnessessary influence on the living world (like blowing it up or something)

I think its to not affect other people in the world.

Just look at Inoue and Chad, They only have their special powers and spiritual sense because of being exposed to Ichigos overflowing power [ if I recall correctly ]

So imagine the influence a VC or a Captain could have on the human world, unrestrained.

sceeZer

2006-01-23, 21:53

Anyway anyone wondering if there are ways for ichigo to get stronger now without just hollow powers. Cause he's already achieved the highest level of Shinigami powers.

when did he reach hes limit in shinigami powers? im saying aizen probably hit that limit and watch the difference in him and ichigo. i dont think at all he hit the limit and far from.

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-25, 16:52

maybe he will be able to summon level 90 spells without chanting, :rolleyes: , but it would really be a step up and very interesting to see wen he does achieve to use kudou

No, This applies only to captains and vcs. Which ichigo is neither.
but it really shouldnt matter, just because he isnt officially a shinigami doesnt mean that he cant achieve the level that a Captain or Vice-Captain class have and as we alrdeady know he has the equivalent of a Captain or higher, i think that they should have placed those safeties on him simply because he doesnt know how to cntroll them properly, right?

Kona

2006-01-25, 17:50

They should but he isnt in gotei 13. Hes just like kenpachi.. the fossid is still on.

budak

2006-01-26, 07:31

imagine ichigo releasing his reiatsu.. menos will come knocking on his door...
IMHO, if ichigo were to be bound by the 5x reduced power, it would be unfair to him...after all he is still very much human

Wolcik

2006-01-27, 18:36

Ok, I read all of it (I have no life)...

I think that Ichigo had his hollow since birth as he have this huge reiatsu, but wchigo could come out just after Ichigo became shinigami on his own...
Ichigo is diffrent from any hybrid as he's maing character and he must be super special to win all those fights that there still be :D

it might be that Urahara created Ichigo, and that why he's perfect :D it's because Isshin knows Urahara and he always treat Ichigo diffrent, and he told him that his name means to protect, he was ment to grow in to a good person and strong fighter, with all those fights with his father :D

as for naming swords... if u won't threat ur sword as a tool and care about it more it won't get rusty and u can rely on it more, be more confident and put more skills in weilding it :D ...
as for Zangetsu... he wants Ichigo to be strong even if he had to ask Wichigo to help in trying, and the reason why he didn't explain how it was to ichigo was because:
1)if he told Ichigo that he has a hollow side and it want to take over him, Ichigo probably would stop trying to be stronger right there, and after he reached BanKai he must traing more just so Wichigo won't come out again :D
2)that's the way Zangetsu is (he's old dude with beard because he's cool that way)

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-27, 20:06

budak

2006-01-28, 00:03

thats exactly what happens in the manga which is not so far from the anime

Ooopz Did'nt know that >.<

sceeZer

2006-01-28, 07:09

Wolcik

2006-01-28, 07:34

without spoiler tags I'll say how would it be possible...
Ichigo has super reiatsu, that is bigger than any other shinigami (including any capitan I think) so he can much up with hybrids when they come (he never was gaining it, he just was aknowleading that he still can use more)
and if he hadn't be a hybrid since childhood he couldn't maintain all of it...
and if he needed to retake his shinigami power's than he probably needed to retake his hollow's powers as well... I think Ichigo is a perfet hybrid that just need to know how to control himself...
I think that Urahara created Ichigo somehow, and only unspoilerish prof is that Urahara knows that Ichigo can still grow and belives in him so much :D

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-01-28, 10:01

i didnt read the manga spoiler for why you think ichigo had the hollow since birth but from the theory of how you become a hollow this is impossible. you have to be dead and loose your chain of fate. the only time this happened with ichigo was when he was training to get hes hollow powers back. you saw the mask for and the transformation began, if he was already a hollow then how could he transform yet again?

could it be possible that Ichigo wasnt in complete control when he lept out of that hole? The mask makes uit impossible to determine anything though, but im just speculating. What do u guys think?

sceeZer

2006-01-28, 19:39

urahara "making" ichigo could be a possiblility but from my point of view in the anime this is LOOOOONG shot. also e didnt retake his shinigami powers he just awakened his own that was in him the whole time. the powers he lost was rukias. sorry for saying "getting HIS powers back".

and like i said i cant see how ichigo was born with hollow powers since you have to be dead to get these powers. to me this sint even a question. it seems pretty obvious that he got them down there. again from my anime view. nothing that implied anything else and from what we know about getting them and know about ichigos past there is no way he could have gotten them any other time

Wolcik

2006-01-29, 14:20

Sirch

2006-01-29, 16:49

Wolcik

2006-01-29, 18:32

Beware: Wild crazy speculation...

Maybe Ichigo is really Shiba Kaien (since everyone knows they look so much alike) and Urahara resurrected him after Rukia killed him but he lost his memories... and since the Hollow took over his body and their souls merged so he always had the hollow in him but it only came out in the pit. and um.. all the memories of his childhood were planted/faked.

:eyespin:

it's imposible to plant Ichigo's memories as there is too many people that share them with him...
I don't think that Ichigo is reincarnation of Kaien after anime didn't make all those scenes that would bring that thought :D

Illuyankas

2006-01-29, 18:53

it's imposible to plant Ichigo's memories as there is too many people that share them with him...
I don't think that Ichigo is reincarnation of Kaien after anime didn't make all those scenes that would bring that thought :D
We've seen many circumstances where large groups of people have had their memories changed, when Kon first appeared and Rukia disappeared, so it's perfectly possible, just unlikely.

Sirch

2006-01-29, 19:30

it's imposible to plant Ichigo's memories as there is too many people that share them with him...
I don't think that Ichigo is reincarnation of Kaien after anime didn't make all those scenes that would bring that thought :D

Yeah, thats why its just wild crazy speculation lol :)

They look a helluva lot alike and both have shinigami powers and both had/have a hallow in them..

His "father", Isshin, could be a fake and he was put there to keep on eye on Ichigo and train him to be good since we find out that he is really a shinigami and knows Urahara..

just more crazy speculation.. :eyespin:

aleez

2006-02-01, 07:27

I think it's because he is originally has the combination, not because of the pit

Neomang5

2006-02-01, 08:38

Here's the way I see it.

Ichigo always had an incredibly strong spirit force (reiatsu, whatever you want to call it), and this was because 1. he was strong to begin with, and 2. Zangetsu was part of him, just not realized yet. Uruhara KNEW that he had latent shinigami powers because of his energy. Being the sly little bastard we know he is, and because he wanted to get his hyogkyou(sp?) back, he used Ichi as an experiment.

He made him a hollow on purpose.

Think about it, we know that he was studying the combination of shinigami and hollows, and even theorized that such a hybrid could exponentially increase the shinigami's power. Uruhara made sure that Ururu didnt help him when he was transforming, and kept stalling for time. He KNEW that if Ichi survived, that he would be not only capable of gaining the power to save Rukia, but capable of realizing all his research.

When Ichi realized his shinigami powers, his hollow personality had already formed, and he was unconciously fighting it. At the moment he became a shinigami, he couldnt be a hollow (at least not fully) anymore. His hollow personality was sealed within Zangetsu, and thus became part of Ichi, as Uruhara planned. That's also why he believes in Ichi so much, because he knows that he has the Hollow personality in him.

Wow... that was a long explanation.

carb

2006-02-01, 10:53

it is hard to speculate at this point in the manga on how/where ichigo got to be a shinigami and how/where he got his hollow powers. One factor to consider is that Ichigo cannot be entirely human since his dad is a shinigami, and to be a shinigami captain means taht you have to pass through soul society, train in the academy and all that. And all these assumes that you must be dead first.

As for where he got his hollow has still yet to be explained by urahara, which im assuming would be the matter at hand for the next several chapters.

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-02-01, 16:54

The Small One

2006-02-02, 05:28

Uruhara KNEW that he had latent shinigami powers because of his energy. Being the sly little bastard we know he is, and because he wanted to get his hyogkyou(sp?) back, he used Ichi as an experiment.

He made him a hollow on purpose.
This doesn't make sense!
Urahara already had the means to create perfect Hybrids (the Hougyoku), and he decided, that it's to dangerous to let it exist.
So why should he change his opinion all of a sudden and create a new hybrid?
And why not just building a new Hougyoku?

jungleking

2006-02-02, 08:42

Urahara put ichi into the pit because Urahara needed to make the hybrid Ichi. Urahara had to make this backup as Anzin was looking for the Hougyoku so there would be someone stronger than the Shinigami's to be able to battle what is to come.

And as we know Urahara is sly as a fox also that would mean he would have all the angles covered.

The Small One

2006-02-02, 10:22

carb

2006-02-03, 07:45

This doesn't make sense!
Urahara already had the means to create perfect Hybrids (the Hougyoku), and he decided, that it's to dangerous to let it exist.
So why should he change his opinion all of a sudden and create a new hybrid?
And why not just building a new Hougyoku?

because my dear (hehe just joking), urahara heard that rukia will be executed. Once rukia's executed, the hougyoku will still remain. Now if i were urahara, id be asking this question.. "should i let them ( SS ) get hougyoku and trust it to them for its safekeeping or should i take trust no one because its too dangerous to be placed on other's hands?"

Now anyone would be an idiot if they chose the latter, because if SS is comprised of maybe just yamamoto, then it'd be okay, but SS is a society. Not every1 has the same kind of thinking ( aizen ). And so obviously, urahara would choose to take it back..

and here's another point. Urahara has been with SS for so long now right? But now he's an outcast and therefore not limited to SS's rules,etc which also makes him more open-minded in a sense. Now, wouldn't urahara be suspicous if the decision was to exterminate rukia immediately for the most ridiculous reasons? also, why the rush to exterminate rukia right? from a couple of days to tommorow. That would be an insult to Soul society because that would mean that soul society can't even handle a couple of royka( sp? ) from creating havoc.

carb

2006-02-03, 07:49

oh my mistake hehe. i wouldn't trust yamamoto just yet. If there's any1 to trust in, then id say ukitake and shinsui, for taking action in what they believed was wrong.

Neomang5

2006-02-03, 08:19

Urahara didn't even know, that someone could be after the Hougyoku! It was safe for about 150 years, and Rukia was only on earth for a few months... If someone really wanted to to get it, he could have extracted it much earlier (from Urahara's point of view).

He's smarter than you give him credit for, methinks. He sensed something fishy about the entire situation, and so, he took a risk, and made Ichi the hybrid.

Besides, he only had 1 hougyoku, and who knows how long it might take him to create another, especially with more limited resources (since he's not in SS anymore.)

Plus, maybe it wasnt all about getting back hougyoku. I mean, he didnt send Ichi to retrieve it if Rukia died, he sent him to save Rukia. I think there's more to this tale that hasnt been revealed yet, even in the manga.

The Small One

2006-02-03, 12:28

urahara heard that rukia will be executed. Once rukia's executed, the hougyoku will still remain. Now if i were urahara, id be asking this question.. "should i let them ( SS ) get hougyoku and trust it to them for its safekeeping or should i take trust no one because its too dangerous to be placed on other's hands?"
You're missing something: Urahara only knows, that Rukia will get executed, he doesn't know, that it will happen by the Soukyoku!
And if she were executed the normal way, the Hougyoku would stay with the soul and get reborn into a human, which nobody would be able to find anymore.

Now, wouldn't urahara be suspicous if the decision was to exterminate rukia immediately for the most ridiculous reasons?
Ridiculous reason? She broke the law. She did something, which is usually prosecuted with the death penalty! She basically deserved this punishment.
And Urahara didn't know, that she will be executed by the Soukyoku. He didn't send Ichigo for the Hougyoku, but just because he wanted to help him.

I still think it doesn't make sense for him to change his opinion on hybrids and make Ichigo one on purpose. If there isn't some secret the author doesn't want to tell yet, I think it was just a coincidence and nothing Urahara planned.

jungleking

2006-02-03, 14:58

Dosen't he get his goods from a contact in (ss) plus Rukia giving Ichi her power was the high crime therefore the worst fate for punishment.

Also why put ichi in the pit in the first place then if he didn't want something to happen. He didn't try to correct the change if he didn't want it to happen.

Komataguri

2006-02-03, 16:00

People are so into conspiracy theories for Urahara making ichi what he is.

What if it was just a product of his previous shinigami powers, and his own resolution, and the fact that his chain was completly eaten away and he was already becoming hollow, but at the wrong order because of his extreme resistance?

Maybe he is just a natural hybrid.

The Small One

2006-02-03, 16:10

Rukia giving Ichi her power was the high crime therefore the worst fate for punishment.
That's why she was scentenced for death penalty. However usually only captains get executed by the Soukyoku! All other Shinigamis (which also should applie to Rukia) get executed in another way... this allows them to get reborn on earth. Only the Soukyoku is the end.

Also why put ichi in the pit in the first place then if he didn't want something to happen.
He wanted for Ichigo to get back Shinigami powers.

Neomang5

2006-02-04, 00:43

People are so into conspiracy theories for Urahara making ichi what he is.
Well it would appear that this idea is true, at least at first glance.

I honestly think that that is how it is, mainly because we've seen enough of Uruhara to know he's fucking brilliant, as well as sneaky as hell. I think he did it for multiple reasons, many of which we are yet unaware of.

I dont like the whole idea of him being a natural hybrid or it just happening for one reason. It all seems too random. I mean the odds that Rukia just HAPPENED to find Ichi, the one (that we know of) hollow/human/shinigami hybrid. She just HAPPENED to be the focus of a conspiracy, and he just HAPPENED to be devoted enough to save her. It just seems, (I know this will sound stupid, but) unrealistic.

But hey, If Kubo Tite has a different idea, go for it! It is his baby after all. In fact, another, better idea would impress me.

Zu Ra

2006-02-04, 21:08

He is A VIzard ..... hybrid btween 2 .If u have noticed when vizzard or vizard appears reatsu is 2 colored Black and blue

budak

2006-02-04, 23:16

He is A VIzard ..... hybrid btween 2 .If u have noticed when vizzard or vizard appears reatsu is 2 colored Black and blue

Ain't that a spoiler?!?

eLcHaKeTeRo

2006-02-04, 23:28

Ain't that a spoiler?!?

kinda, not really

jungleking

2006-02-05, 07:57

It's slighlty spoliery to the Anime but I think the Manga has already mentioned them.

Ichi was in the pit not eating, His chain being eaten away at. Wouldn't you have tried to make sure he doesn't get hollowed.

-KarumA-

2006-02-05, 08:17

Ain't that a spoiler?!?

for anime yes

but in manga it was said some while back :heh:
i would suggest spoiler tags on it for those who dont read the manga

NoSanninWa

2006-02-06, 01:50

Ain't that a spoiler?!?
Looks more like speculation to me. Hollow + Shinigami = x. That usually means vizard if the person involved looks like a shinigami, like Ichigo does, so he's choosing to call "x" a Vizard. It isn't proven, though it does seem likely.

soulfly

2006-02-06, 07:16

He is A VIzard ..... hybrid btween 2 .If u have noticed when vizzard or vizard appears reatsu is 2 colored Black and blue
can somebody highlight which chapter i could find this? somehow i had not noticed about this before :heh:

voldy18

2006-02-06, 07:58

can somebody highlight which chapter i could find this? somehow i had not noticed about this before :heh:

The first mention of Vizards happens in ch. 185. There Hirako explains that he is a Shinigami who has crossed over into the domain of the hollows. He also says to Ichigo that he is "the same kind as you", meaning that Ichigo is also a Vaizard.

sonygamer2010

2007-08-08, 07:22

ok, im about to explain how ichigo really got his hollow powers, and it has nothing to do with relatives or ansestors or rukia's powers or any of that stuff.
As you can all recall, Ichigo trained with Kisuke Urahara(mr. hat and clogs) to get his soul reaper powers back so he could save Rukia. During the training, Urahara released Ichigo's soul from his body and his soul was connected to his body by a soul chain. After fighting with Ururu Tsumugiya(the little girl with the black hair), ichigo was able to move better in his soul form.
Now to get on to the hollow part. As the second part of Ichigo's training, Urahara cut his soul chain in two and made a huge pit which Ichigo fell in. The test was to regain his soul reaper powers before his soul chain could eat itself, causing Ichigo to turn hollow. The chain did infact eat itself, which caused what i like to call, hollowfication.However, ichigo's resistance caused the hollowfication process to go dfferently. usually, one's soul form vanashes and reforms as a hollow in another location. With Ichigo, he didnt vanash. The hollowfication started with the head and mask part. Because of the delay, Ichigo was able to get his soul reaper powers back, along with learning his zanpakutō's name Zangetsu. But because he went through part of the hollowfication, he retained hollow powers. i would get more into his hollow side, but this is already to long. sorry for it being long. hope this helps.

sonygamer2010

2007-08-08, 07:25

ok, im about to explain how ichigo really got his hollow powers, and it has nothing to do with relatives or ansestors or rukia's powers or any of that stuff.
As you can all recall, Ichigo trained with Kisuke Urahara(mr. hat and clogs) to get his soul reaper powers back so he could save Rukia. During the training, Urahara released Ichigo's soul from his body and his soul was connected to his body by a soul chain. After fighting with Ururu Tsumugiya(the little girl with the black hair), ichigo was able to move better in his soul form.
Now to get on to the hollow part. As the second part of Ichigo's training, Urahara cut his soul chain in two and made a huge pit which Ichigo fell in. The test was to regain his soul reaper powers before his soul chain could eat itself, causing Ichigo to turn hollow. The chain did infact eat itself, which caused what i like to call, hollowfication.However, ichigo's resistance caused the hollowfication process to go dfferently. usually, one's soul form vanashes and reforms as a hollow in another location. With Ichigo, he didnt vanash. The hollowfication started with the head and mask part. Because of the delay, Ichigo was able to get his soul reaper powers back, along with learning his zanpakutō's name Zangetsu. But because he went through part of the hollowfication, he retained a hollow spirit. i would get more into his hollow side, but this is already to long. sorry for it being long. hope this helps.

sonygamer2010

2007-08-08, 08:06

He is A VIzard ..... hybrid btween 2 .If u have noticed when vizzard or vizard appears reatsu is 2 colored Black and blue
Ichigo is not a vizard. he has the same powers as the vizard group, but he never joined them.

afro_dan

2007-08-08, 08:42

Vizard is the name of both the group, and the "species" itself, so technically, Ichigo is a Vizard, but not a member of the "Vizard group".

mist2123

2007-08-08, 09:53

Ichigo is not a vizard. he has the same powers as the vizard group, but he never joined them.

you basically saying that a vastrolorde is not a hollow cuz he is a vastrolorde:heh:
Viazard is a species.

sonygamer2010

2007-08-08, 10:37

i was only talking about the group, not the species.

mist2123

2007-08-08, 11:04

i was only talking about the group, not the species.

"Ichigo is not a vizard. he has the same powers as the vizard group, but he never joined them."

see:heh: You dont need to be that defensive

Jamiekiel

2007-08-09, 17:21

I haven't read many replies in this thread, just saw a few things that bugged me, firstly; Why would Ichigo have gotten his hollow powers from his parents? Since when is being a hollow genetic? I can't even begin to understand how being a corrupted spirit could be passed through genes. Secondly; I feel that Ichigo developed his powers when becoming a Shinigami, as mentioned in the anime, his hollow half is part of Zangetsu, so he must've become part Hollow when he got Zangetsu.
I also recall watching something about how Kisuke (the shop keeper) left him in the pit knowing that something like this would happen, he did it for his research benefits or something, that's why he stopped Ururu commencing battle with Ichigo, and also that's why he apologised to Ichi on the flying carpet in one of the episodes.
Kisuke would know this would happen to Ichigo, and it happened because Ichigo's soul chain completely eroded.

sonygamer2010

2007-08-13, 12:37

mabe his hollow self became a part of zangetsu.

Scep

2007-08-14, 08:17

Being hollow is not genetic. "hollow" is something you become when you die and certain conditions met. Since people are born from living things, theres no "hollow" to pass on in the first place.

that's why he stopped Ururu commencing battle with Ichigo, and also that's why he apologised to Ichi on the flying carpet in one of the episodes.

He was apologizing to ichigo for not telling her about him putting the hougyouku into rukia and all that stuff, not for the hollow.

WhiteWings

2007-08-14, 16:53

I wonder if Ichigo's relatively unique background made him gain so much power so fast and seemingly more vulnerable to being overtaken by his hollow self compared to most of the real shinigamis.

One thing I'm not sure is how is Ichigo's hollow self connected to Zangetsu? The first encounter ended with the hollow self being reabsorbed into Zangetsu. Does that mean being able to use and draw upon Zangetsu is what caused the hollow self to come out in the first place? Then doesn't that mean all shinigamis have a hollow self or is Ichigo unique?

Well, its fun to watch Ichigo's hollow self in action one way or another.

sonygamer2010

2007-08-25, 23:38

i wonder if ichigo will have complete control over his hollow side when he fights aizen, or whatever his name is. also i wonder if aizen will turn himself into a vizard, or something else. its gonna be a sweet fight when they fight. i know im gonna be watchin.

whatasob

2007-08-31, 20:37

eh, urahara knew what he was doing when he changed ichigo into a shinigami and that he knew ichigo would get hollow powers as a result (remember the hollow mask and the pit?). the point of that scene was to illustrate that he was between hollow and shinigami, and between life and death

btw do they ever explain what happens to hollows once they die?

Shiryuu

2007-08-31, 21:07

One thing I'm not sure is how is Ichigo's hollow self connected to Zangetsu? The first encounter ended with the hollow self being reabsorbed into Zangetsu. Does that mean being able to use and draw upon Zangetsu is what caused the hollow self to come out in the first place? Then doesn't that mean all shinigamis have a hollow self or is Ichigo unique?

Zanpakto are hollow/shinigami powers sealed in a sword. So zangetsu/hollow ichigo are one in the same. But since he has both, they can both show up instead of just the other.

Vizards are shinigami that got their hollow powers so Ichigo isn't special.

also i wonder if aizen will turn himself into a vizard, or something else.
lol. He already has twice the power of a normal captain. No point in continuing the story if he becomes a vizard.

btw do they ever explain what happens to hollows once they die?
Quincy kill = just disappears forever
Shinigami kill = gets sent to soul society/hell.

Hollow

2007-09-26, 15:37

I actually think it's the hougyoku, since it can make someone higher than a regular Death God, and to do so you must become a hybrid of a human soul and a hollow, maybe that power was leaked into Ichigo when Rukia gave him his powers...

Naruto_spartan

2007-09-26, 17:57

I think that Ichigo is more special then the vizards.
In the manga/anime, when Ichigo's true hollow came out, all the vizards looked scared, as if they hadn't seen such a being before, though I can guess that they must have, so Ichigo couldn't have been something special. And the fact that his hollow powers seemed greater then theirs or at least rivald Shinji's. Also his hollow is exceptionally smart, though hollows shouldn't be that smart.

YOu might say Ichigo is some kind of hybrid, more special then anything. I even start to doubt that he is even a human, or a shinigami.

i wonder if ichigo will have complete control over his hollow side when he fights aizen, or whatever his name is. also i wonder if aizen will turn himself into a vizard, or something else. its gonna be a sweet fight when they fight. i know im gonna be watchin.

I imagine something like Aizen becoming a full hollow, with his mind in control of course, and Ichigo becoming a full hollow himself, if not a slightly more advanced one. And the best place for thins battle to take place is Soul Society. You can just imagine the look on everyone's face when they see Ichigo becoming a complete hollow with his sanity still stable. Something like this will get his name written in the history books for a long time, or will make his the most wanted guy in all of Soul Society.

Hollow

2007-09-27, 09:41

you see, i think it's the hougyoku, there's no other explination that the hollow was formed by any other method other than the time that Ichigo was in the pit

Hollow

2007-09-27, 09:45

What about this is betraying?
Besides Zangetsu isn't a real person for himself, he is just a part of Ichigo('s soul), so he can't really betray Ichigo in the first place, because it would be betraying himself.
The "inner hollow" is also Ichigo! Theay are basically all the same person, just a little bit different aspects of it.
but the hollow ichigo only looked like ichigo because of the fact that the hollow wanted his body, his soul, and his identity

Naruto_spartan

2007-09-27, 15:02

you see, i think it's the hougyoku, there's no other explination that the hollow was formed by any other method other than the time that Ichigo was in the pit.

I don't think that we can say that there aren't other ways, I mean look at the vizards. At a certain time they must have turned in to hollows at some point. And neither had anything to do with the hougyoku. And we can't really say that the pit is another way to become a hollow because it was Ichigo inside, and he is very different from normal humans. Anyone else surely would have become hollows.

Deadbyte

2007-09-27, 21:43

Hey quick side question What powers do you think Ichigo still has not unlocked? hichigo said in the manga the next time that they faceoff if ichigo lasts that long the true potenial of his hollow powers would be revealed...

Also does anyone find it strange that Azien's just watching his espada get beat up and not acting on it?? Cause I think he's trying to figure out how to utilize Ichigo for his gain other then the speculation of aizen trying to gain VIZard powers. Like maybe use Ichigo as an ally??

Hollow

2007-09-28, 10:07

if you haen't already seen the entire japaneese series, you will find out later on that when Ichigo becomes a almost full Hollow, that he instinctively learns an attack that would have turned him into a Hollow, but stops when Ichigo kills his hollow side.

Hollow

2007-09-28, 10:13

though there are still other possibilities...

urahara25

2007-09-30, 14:09

When Ishiin was fighting arrankar Grandfisher, Grandfisher said "that's why Ichigo's so strong, he's a pure blood" implying that both Ishiin and Ichigo's mum were shinigami that may be the reason of his accelerated growth in learning advanced shinigami techniques.

As for his hollow powers i think that's got something to do with all his exposure to hollows and shinigami before dying and becoming one himself, and also the shaft, the hougyoku though i doubt it is genetic.

Kyero Fox

2007-09-30, 15:23

Ichigo's mom was human dude... his father was pure blood shinigami

urahara25

2007-10-01, 08:11

did we know that ishiin was a shinigami? no so how do we know his mother isn't, i just forgot to say in my last post i was guessing, but arrankar grandfisher did say that ichigo was pureblood and thats why he was beaten.

I know your going to say that how come ichigo's mum didn't just go shinigami and kill grandfisher back when ichigo was a child but maybe she was too slow to get out of her gigai or maybe she didn't have enough time because ichigo was in danger.

Jarkeler

2007-10-01, 08:39

Or maybe she had lost her powers like Ishiin had.

urahara25

2007-10-01, 08:44

possibly and that pure shinigami blood is sure to give him some sort of a power boost.

Jarkeler

2007-10-01, 09:10

Not really so much of a boost, if Ichigo's mother was a pure-blood Shinigami along with his father, that would just make him a pureblood Shinigami, giving him the same increases in power as probably of those in the noble families in Soul Society. And possibly Ichigo's powers were influenced with those of a Hollow because of the Grand Fisher attacking him and his mother when he was so young?

Hollow

2007-10-01, 10:23

that's a very interesting thought...

Kyero Fox

2007-10-01, 11:27

Jarkeler

2007-10-01, 12:01

or maybe you guys need to read a bit more about it? because she seriously isn't a Shinigami .. trust me his father would have said so some time when we found out HE was a Shinigami. Urahara,yourichi and ichigo's father both left Soul Socity together ...

and even in the gigi she would have noticed the Hollow was there... She DID Not know it was there. she yelled at Ichigo because she saw nothing and he was running to help the girl.

The most we ever see is small clips of Ichigo running towards the girl and his mother starting to run after him when he remembers. Show me som actual proof that you know she is NOT, for sure, a Shinigami. Besides, isn't this all hypthetical?

Agallion

2007-10-01, 13:56

or maybe you guys need to read a bit more about it? because she seriously isn't a Shinigami .. trust me his father would have said so some time when we found out HE was a Shinigami. Urahara,yourichi and ichigo's father both left Soul Socity together ...

and even in the gigi she would have noticed the Hollow was there... She DID Not know it was there. she yelled at Ichigo because she saw nothing and he was running to help the girl.

so we know hollows are attracted to people with spirit power, so why did the hollow kill the mom instead of ichigo hm?

Answer could be:

A) Ichigos mom has spirit power ie just a strong human
B) she was a shimigami
C) she was some sort of off hollow.

Now add a interesting story how Dad and Mom met, and bingo bamo you have somthing that has to point to a B or C type situation.

urahara25

2007-10-01, 13:59

but look how strong ishiin is, i mean cmon hes at least captain level, i think ichigo would have trouble fighting him, surely teh strength of a shinigami could have something to do with teh strength of their family liek the force

"the force is strong in my family"

urahara25

2007-10-01, 14:00

anyway wasn't this meant to be about his Hollow powers not how he got them?

the other vizard can use a cero so maybe Ichigo will learn that later, it could come in handy, (i dont knwo if this stuffs been covered yet)

Kyero Fox

2007-10-01, 22:53

1. Stop double posting
2. the Hollow didn't attack his mother he attacked Ichigo .. but she got int he way ...

tjay777

2007-10-02, 01:38

Hey for the that dont know. no one said ichigo's father cant see soul and hollow
My Theory: Ichigo had Zangetsu and his hollow form in him before the start of the story and when he gained his soul reaper power from in the pit it awaken his hollow powers also it just took it longer to fully awaken. because he had such power it allowed him to use his hollow powers.
I doubt it is a reincarnation of Kaien which was turned in to a hollow before he died.
because this would mean Rukia would be older then 15 and sees still aging and she would look older but still there hasnt been any reincarnation in the anime so i rellay doubt this

This is a spoiler for anyone not at Ep 105 plus: Ichigo strong spiritual powers come from his father who was a captian class Soul Reaper which could also be one reason ichigo got his soul reaper and hollow powers

Kyero Fox

2007-10-02, 07:11

I had a hunch maybe Zangetsu was a Esparda at some point XD

lequory

2007-10-02, 08:45

I had a hunch maybe Zangetsu was a Esparda at some point XD

how'd you come up with that one. Could you please elaborate.

Jarkeler

2007-10-02, 09:54

how'd you come up with that one. Could you please elaborate.

Yea... I'd like to hear this theory too.

Iknowwhatyou

2007-10-02, 11:26

So maybe during the transfer of powers to Ichigo from Rukia, the kougyou or however u spell it activated and kinda ya know o.o

Kyero Fox

2007-10-02, 12:09

how'd you come up with that one. Could you please elaborate.

Quite simple really... One of the Espardas looks very simular to him.

The chick Esparda said "Its like we are watching a fight between two Esparda's" she could be refering to his Bankai/Soul slayer sword the only way we can be sure is when we see the #1 Esparda fights :)

which also means Ichigo can have a Released forum >:)

Jarkeler

2007-10-02, 12:13

urahara25

2007-10-02, 12:15

what chapter and what espada? i dont remember that bit

Kyero Fox

2007-10-02, 12:16

which reminds me :) I wonna see Neriel's released form *dirty thoughts* :O *drool*

Sinaura

2007-10-02, 20:45

Quite simple really... One of the Espardas looks very simular to him.

The chick Esparda said "Its like we are watching a fight between two Esparda's" she could be refering to his Bankai/Soul slayer sword the only way we can be sure is when we see the #1 Esparda fights :)

which also means Ichigo can have a Released forum >:)

How can Ichigo have a released form? Released forms are just arrancar's reverting back to their primitive, uber-powerful state. That would mean Ichigo would have to turn into a hollow, who turns into a shinigami, who turns back into his hollow form. :eyespin:

Agallion

2007-10-02, 23:12

How can Ichigo have a released form? Released forms are just arrancar's reverting back to their primitive, uber-powerful state. That would mean Ichigo would have to turn into a hollow, who turns into a shinigami, who turns back into his hollow form. :eyespin:

A shimigami with control in a hollows full battle armor? not to far off.

Its just like gaining the vizard mask, but now getting the rest of the armor with it.

Kyero Fox

2007-10-03, 11:52

Jarkeler

2007-10-03, 11:59

remember when he was almost full hollow during the training? he could prob revert to that and kick ass :3 but lose control and Orihime will use her powers to revert Ichigo back to normal :O SPOILER! X'D

I would be really disappointed if Ichigo's new power boost would be him just reverting back to Hollow form. It would be... A let down.

Kyero Fox

2007-10-03, 12:13

a let down? That would freakin sweet!~ Him being all psyco kicking who evers ass and attacking his friends at the same time....

Jarkeler

2007-10-03, 14:48

a let down? That would freakin sweet!~ Him being all psyco kicking who evers ass and attacking his friends at the same time....

It'd be unoriginal and it really wouldn't make too much sense to me.

urahara25

2007-10-03, 14:53

i concur, Ichigo should always be a good person, as his name states he was born to protect one person and protecting people is never a bad thing

Agallion

2007-10-03, 17:02

i concur, Ichigo should always be a good person, as his name states he was born to protect one person and protecting people is never a bad thing

and that person to protect is...

A) the spirit king

b) Rukia

c) Inoue

d) ?????

:D

Jarkeler

2007-10-03, 17:05

and that person to protect is...

A) the spirit king

b) Rukia

c) Inoue

d) ?????

:D

d) His little sisters?

Kyero Fox

2007-10-03, 19:17

I think its safe to say he protects the people he cares for ... which is a lot... chad,Orihimi,his sisters,daddy,Mom(lol tooslow)rukia.... others?

CuXe

2007-10-04, 00:46

I think its safe to say he protects the people he cares for ... which is a lot... chad,Orihimi,his sisters,daddy,Mom(lol tooslow)rukia.... others?

yeap...........Kon and the rest of the plushes:D

sonygamer2010

2007-12-17, 21:56

it would be cool to see ichigo's hollow take over and fight the espada, or one of the renagade captains, but he still cant beat Aizen. so im thinking for the final fight, ichigo will have to have full control over his hollow/vizard powers. i wonder if his apperance would change

Arthas1011

2007-12-18, 15:50

Maybe he would look like a mixture of an espada, you know with half the mask there and he is sane, and how he looks when he has bankai

urahara25

2007-12-23, 13:26

OH SWEET SPIRIT KING, I just watched the episode were Ichigo beats his hollow and the hollow says:
"If you really wanna use my power, don't die til the next time you see me"
SO it will definitely be Ichigo's inner hollow who gives him his next power-up, don't slag me for just noticing if you have already, I just can't believe it took me this long.

Arthas1011

2007-12-23, 16:56

Hows it hangin BleachOD?

BleachOD

2007-12-24, 01:27

I wasn't going to say anything...but I am seriously bored. So here goes...

It's safe to say that Ichigo is a Vaizard. It's also safe to say he is he got his Hollow powers at the same time he discovered his own Shinigami powers; in the shattered shaft...aka Urahara’s pit.

Not from his parents. There is no evidence to suggest that Isshin was born with an inner hollow and it goes against everything we know about how hollows are created.

Although it has never been said whether Ichigo's mother was human or not; I believe it is safe to assume that she was not a Shinigami . Because two spirits should have a spirit baby. So unless he has a gigai that grows with him...He's part human. This would account for his having a chain of fate when he was just a normal plus. Grand Fisher said he ate her instead of Ichigo…because he liked eating women.

Since it has already been said that Zankpakuto is a direct reflection or manifestation of the soul’s spirit power (I didn’t say person, because I am talking about Shinigami/Pluses) It is safe to say that Zangetsu was latent inside of Ichigo his entire life. However I believe that, his being part human was like a seal. But being that his Reiatsu is immensely powerful, it still leaked out…so he could only see spirits. He could have had these powers naturally (Because we’ve seen some Shinigami become so after they died. I.e. Rukia.) But it’s more than a possibility that he inherited his from his father.

Though Urahara knew that Ichigo was using Rukia’s powers, I believe Urahara always knew Ichigo had latent Shinigami powers…LONG before Ichigo met Rukia. (He knew of Grand fisher murdering Ichigo’s mother…He could have found out afterwards, but I doubt it)

Although Byakuya took only Rukia’s powers…He still turned Ichigo back into the human with latent powers. I believe that because Byakuya destroyed the Chain link and the Soul Sleep. The ONLY way Ichigo could awaken his own powers was to become a Hollow or a hollow-like being..More commonly known as Vaizards.… Since he could no longer become a Shinigami, even though he had the hidden power of one.

I believe that Zangetsu materialized in the form of an older man…Hero type. Due to Ichigo’s character…He has an old soul, and cool so he has a bad ass sword. Oigichi, who said that he was once one with Zangetsu, I believe he meant in the form of Reiatsu and not the actually Avatar (Old man) of it. I believe he meant before Ichigo awakened his own powers.

See I don’t believe he is really a Hollow. I believe the left over by product of almost becoming a hollow merely causes the Reiatsu to split into a Shinigami-like one and a Hollow like one. In other words instead of just the Zankpakuto the other half of the Reiatsu cannot return, or even become part of its original Shinigami form (But they can coexist) …so in manifests itself in the form of a mask. This allows the Shinigami to also use Hollow powers as well as his former powers, WITHOUT ACTUALLY BEING A REAL HOLLOW.

I believe Oigichi’s appearance is like Ichigo’s for this reason. He represents the dead-almost-dead soul of Ichigo and originated from Hollow origins. So his appearance is something in between. I believe that once the mask was formed he was no longer a part of Zangetsu. (They were both born at the same time) He just used to be. I believe the reason only Zangetsu had the power to call him out and was dominate…Was because he was still sealed in the form of the Mask Ichigo carried around and he like Zangetsu had to be released.

So Ichigo could at first only see in his world and was not able to call him out like he did Zangetsu during his fight with Zaraki. I believe since he was created because Ichigo was in a state near death. He had to be released the same way. So you could say that the partially formed mask was like a second Shikai (Ichigo vs. Byakuya) and the fully formed masked is like the Bankai (Ichigo vs. Grimjow…Pick a round)
Once he was fully released. He can out at anytime like Zangetsu in the Soul-Slayers realm, but unlike Zangetsu who is always released. He has to be called out by Ichigo. I think that because Ichigo has turned into a hollow then back to Shinigami-hollow-Vaizard. (Twice) I believe that he has another form that is somewhere between hollow and Shinigami…Much like how when he goes Bankai…His clothes and speed resembles the Old mans. I think that there is a level beyond the Mask.

I also believe the Hollow never wanted control of Ichigo. He said many times he is Ichigo's power. If he did he wouldn't have instructed him, he'd could of kill Ichigo if he'd wanted to at that time. Instead he changed forms and showed Ichigo his own weaknesses. I believe that although he is the dark side of Ichigo he wants Ichigo to be the king, and not the Horse. He just wants his king to trust him in battle and to admit that he is a natural fighter and not the wuss KT has turned him into (I almost want him to die...for that. But No Kubo=No Ichigo so the bastard gets to live).

Since Ichigo always depends on Zangetsu. Oigichi had to be the one to give him that instruction. Like Zangetsu taught him his Bankai...Ogiichi had to teach him his form of it. I believe that they were once the same when they were just latent spirit power, but they are now two separate types of spirit power that co-exist, inside one soul..

What is I want to know is….Since he gave Chad and Orihime the powers they have now…

By them just being is his presence (While using Rukia’s and not his own…This is in the Manga. Anime said it awakened them instead of giving it to them) What I want to know is after his powers mutated and he became a “Vaizard”….Did it cause Orihime’s power to become more like the Vaizards, and Chado’s got effected by the Hollow Reiatsu instead so his mutated to become more like a Hollow’s? Or was it like that in the beginning…which if was…that blows away everything I just typed.

Blood_Knight

2007-12-24, 10:17

BleachOD

2007-12-24, 10:58

It may just be quite simply-
He aquirred his shinigami side vis his dad- which firsly gave him dormant shinigami powers, he was simply a rare born that no matter what he would grow to be a powerful shinigami/ vizard Ichigo has a human [presumed] and shingami for parents could be something crazy like 'humans arent perfect' and he got some bad side from his mommy, walah vizard- [cant rememeber which ep, but somewhere hiyori said something about hating humans and shinigami, but not once did she mention that hollows were bad, so basing from that Id say its to do with humanXshinigami breeding, also the facts that bleachOD mentioned about zangetsu and Hichigo may very well true, although im not too happy that Ichigo's zampaktou manifestaion is Bono. but I like the idea that Hichigo was toughening up ichigo:D He couldn't have gotten it from his mother unless she was a Vaizard. But he'd still be a Spirit baby. (Not mention...REALLY DEAD.)

When Hiyori made that statement...I believe she meant because she wasn't a part of any species. To me it was it was a statement born out of pain, frustration, isolation and loneliness. Vaizards are outcast...

So she may hate them because she is not wanted, when that's really what she wants...To be wanted.

Blood_Knight

2007-12-24, 11:40

He couldn't have gotten it from his mother unless she was a Vaizard. But he'd still be a Spirit baby. (Not mention...REALLY DEAD.)

When Hiyori made that statement...I believe she meant because she wasn't a part of any species. To me it was it was a statement born out of pain, frustration, isolation and loneliness. Vaizards are outcast...

So she may hate them because she is not wanted, when that's really what she wants...To be wanted.

Well-
The increase of 9 vizard so far [not including the main man himself] to me said:
1. That there was a certain event which brought them into to bleach unvierse
2. they havent beem known to actually xsist in recorded SS data, and the fact that Aizen wants to make them= that they were recent figures in history. naturally made Shinigami/ hollowfications are posssible

When Hiyori and Shinji had that short talk I thought it felt more like a motive and a grudge to me when he said 'be paitient' as in something will change their current status- problem being that we dont know anything valuable to Vizard Lore. Ichigo being the only sibling to inherit the shinigami/ vizard powers is explainable- the other two sisters either havent had their powers awaken or that they havent inherited it yet. Another thing to note is that HIchigo was the manifestation of the hollow side of Ichigo's soul [no different form because hollows dont have manifestations toward soul -lol because they are the soul itself]. and that zangetsu was the shinigami side and since both entities are now the same it shows the fusion of hollow and shinigami, also how I got the 'blame it on the parents idea'

Iseikuneso

2007-12-25, 21:59

My theory:

Originally, Ichigo's power lay dormant inside him, when Rukia gave him her power his power was still sealed, though the seal was weaker. When Ichigo was put in the Shattered Shaft his full power was awakening, that's why he was able to fight off becoming a hollow, but he couldn't completely push it off so part of the hollow latched on to him.

Blood_Knight

2007-12-25, 23:41

Intelus

2008-02-26, 07:51

1. He got it from the pit when he almost died/turned in to a hollow.

I don't think so, remember his first fight with Renji. His facial expression, his choice of words... It didn't really sound like ichigo, it sounded more like his Hollow.

2. Rukia trasfered it to him when she gave him shinigami powers.

Well, I can't say that it's not possible, but it's not probable. I mean... transfer of spiritual beings? Besides, his Hollow said multiple times that he and Zangetsu are one, and he sure as hell didn't get Zangetsu from Rukia.

3. He is a reincarnation of Kaien which was turned in to a hollow before he died.

Aaroniero Arruruerie absorbed/ate/whatever Metastacia and Kaien so Ichigo can't be a reincarnation of Kaien, since Kaien didn't die normally.

4. His own shinigami were a hollow hybrid to begin with and got unlocked along with his shinigami powers in the pit.

See 1. --> fight with Renji.

5. He inherited it from his mother and/or father.

Well... possible, not likely.

6. Urahara advertedly put Ichigo in the pit knowing it would make him into a hybrid hollow.

See 1. --> fight with Renji.

7. The hougyoku affected Ichigo's own shinigami powers when he was around Rukia not when she transferred her powers.

I wouldn't really say so... Aizen states that the Hougyoku can be activated when temporarily fusing with someone who has twice the spirit force (reiatsu) of an average Shinigami Captain. Maybe it's only required to CONTROL the Hougyoku, so this might've happened, but I don't think that's what happened.

8. A combination of 3 and 5. One of Ichigo's ancestors is the reincarnation of Kaien.

See 3. --> Aaroniero Arruruerie

9. A modification of 1. The hollow Ichigo turned up to stop him from becoming a full hollow so he wouldn't lose his host.

See 1. --> fight with Renji.

10. An extension of 4. The hollow couldn't take over because Rukia's powers where somehow surpressing him.

See 1. --> fight with Renji.
------------------------------------------------

I think we should think what happened to him BEFORE the fight with Renji (or during, but nothing special happened except that he was weakened to a point where his Hollow could partially take over).

Well, that's what I think.

EarlyBlake

2008-02-28, 05:45

Aadi

2008-02-28, 22:55

There are some interesting theories here, but I have to say, I haven't read them all...it's a little too overwhelming...so if I repeat something that's already been addressed or dismissed, please excuse it.

Let's see if this makes sense:

1) Ichigo is the son of a Captain, trained all of his life by a Captain, and as we've seen, is easily twice as powerful as an average Captain.

2) As we saw in the Bounto Arc, Rukia has some fairly latent powers of her own.

3) If we could pin it on the hougyoku "leaking" via proximity, then others would have also been affected, which is not the case.

Therefore, when the two powerful spirits combined, I believe it was enough to give Ichigo a little Espada style, hougyoku boost. Even though the effect was immediate, he was still using Rukia's powers, so his remained untapped, but still leaking (toward Chad and Inoue, both of whom had a very special bond with Ichigo...it could even be argued that Ichigo's dad got his powers back from Ichigo's leakage). Once Rukia's powers were removed, Ichigo was forced to tap into his own...which he did to a very small degree, and has been increasing ever since.

Zangetsu, Hichigo and the nine-tailed-fox...lol...sorry couldn't resist. There are similarities, and it seems like people are trying to draw a direct correlation. The problem is that the nine-tailed-fox is a completely seperate being that is sealed up inside of Naruto; whereas Zangetsu and Hichigo are an integral part of Ichigo's own core being...Ichigo's internal conflict with Hichigo is not a seperate being trying to take over, it's a darker side of Ichigo trying to gain control.

So, to sum up my premise...Ichigo got his incredible power from direct exposure to Hougyoku; Chad and Inuoe, then got their powers indirectly from Hougyoku through Ichigo's leakage (which sounds pretty nasty).

War_Lord

2008-03-01, 02:32

I assumed the hollow counterpart was something like the Id and it's apart of all human souls (In the bleach world). As Ichigo's high spiritual pressure affected Chad and Inue, it also impacted his hollow self. It got a taste of the power and slowly began to crave more of it. Eventually it materialized into a humanoid form within Ichi's subconscious and has become a direct threat. I guess the main difference between Ichigo and the Vizards is that Ichigo gained his hollow powers unintentionally and against his own will (but now he wants to use the power to his advantage), while the Vizards intentionally brought out their inner hollow counterparts in order to tame it (Still not sure why though).

BleachOD

2008-03-02, 11:55

We really don't know if it was intentionally or not...

We know nothing about them

@Blake thanks for the cookies...I have put a lot of thought into (Blame my fandom)http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/weddingpeach18.gif

War_Lord

2008-03-02, 12:41

^ I was basing my statement on what was stated about them in the manga and anime. "They're Shinigami who choose to use taboo powers and was exiled from SS" or somewhere along those lines. That may be true or not, but since it's the only thing said about them I assume it's true until proven otherwise.

anime fan

2008-03-07, 09:34

ichigo unlocked his shinigami and hollow but couldnt manifest it untill people that unlocked there hollows and controled them taught him how

BleachOD

2008-03-07, 10:02

ichigo unlocked his shinigami and hollow but couldnt manifest it untill people that unlocked there hollows and controled them taught him how:confused::confused::confused::confused: What?!

No...He unlocked them during the fight with Byakuya. He could not manifest it on his own until the Vaizards taught him how...

cloak_and_dagger

2008-03-08, 11:21

So, to sum up my premise...Ichigo got his incredible power from direct exposure to Hougyoku

If you watch episode 61, In Rukia's flashback she was in a white robe and it was obviously when she was in a weakened state, indicating that the hogyouku was infused in her AFTER her powers were taken by Ichigo, so the aprox. 1/3 of her original power that she had left was affected by the hogyouku, not the 2/3 in Ichigo.

BleachOD

2008-03-09, 18:37

If you watch episode 61, In Rukia's flashback she was in a white robe and it was obviously when she was in a weakened state, indicating that the hogyouku was infused in her AFTER her powers were taken by Ichigo, so the aprox. 1/3 of her original power that she had left was affected by the hogyouku, not the 2/3 in Ichigo. You are wrong.

That's just in the anime. In the manga it's only a doodle at the end of the chapter. Depicting Rukia and the robe. and Urahara's leg. That's when he gave her the gigai...to hide her. Not the Hougyoku. That's an anime boo boo.

Aizen says in the anime and manga. That by the time he found the out the the LOCATION and WHO it was hidden in Rukia had already left.
Since I know you won't take my word for it...I will prove (Hougyoku is a theory I kicked around and I have had my share of Aizen debates in other forums so I know it off gate)http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/7c00a009.gif
He says this in the anime ep 61 at 20:27-:38

And chapter 175 volume Volume 20 pg 13 & 14

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-13.png
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-14.png

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/609/proof1yo3.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof1yo3.jpg)

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1553/proof12xd6.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof12xd6.jpg)

So you see the Urahara had already hid the Hougyoku in Rukia before she met Ichigo. And before he fled society. He got exiled for creating the Gigai he gave her. It was a preventative measure in case the location of the Hougyoku was discovered. It was a by chance that Rukia was delivered into his hands.

The Gigai's purpose was to conceal the location of the Hougyoku. It was not the means in which he gave it to her.

Aizens explains this..

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4075/gigaiexplanation101fu3.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigaiexplanation101fu3.jpg)

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8866/gigaiexplanation1012ls7.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigaiexplanation1012ls7.jpg)

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/491/gigaiexplanation1013xc3.th.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigaiexplanation1013xc3.jpg)

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-15.png
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-16.png

It's a common mistake. Hoped that helped to clear it up for you.:D

Originally Posted by Aadi View Post

So, to sum up my premise...Ichigo got his incredible power from direct exposure to Hougyoku No. he got in the pit. When he almost became a Hollow.

Amirali

2008-03-09, 18:51

This might be the wrong thread to bring this up....but it doesn't seem a bad place to start. Does anyone else think that Ichigo's character is evolving into someone who likes to fight more and more? Early on, fighting was a chore for Ichi, or a way to protect his friends.
But then there was that encounter with his hollow, where he learned from his inner Kenpachi that he also has the fighting instinct. Since then, there have been hints that he's starting to enjoy the fight for the sake of it. First in the anime filler arc (Forest of Menos) where Rukia has to admonish him that he should forget the adjuchas and retreat even though he wanted to kill them all. Then of course, against Ulquiorra, he attacked Ulqui first without waiting to be forced into it. (Contrast this to his fight against Byakuya in SS, when he engaged only when Kuchiki tried to attack him).
Later also, Grimm made it pretty clear that he thought Ichi wanted to settle their score , not just protect. And finally, Kenpachi made it clear he thinks Ichi is just in SS for the fights. There are a few possible explanations for this change:

1) Ichigo wants to settle score for all the damage that's been done to his friends by Aizen and co.
2) He realizes that his friends will never be safe until his enemies are killed.
3) He's beginning to enjoy all the constant fighting and battles, even if he doesn't realize it yet. The Hichigo/Kenpachi side of his personality is manifesting more. I don't mean his inner hollow is taking over or anything. It's just that Hichigo is an aspect of his personality, not a completely alien invader. Now that Ichigo has accepted that part of himself, it's gaining more expression.

If I had to choose one explanation, I personally find number 3 the most intriguing.
Does anyone else spot the same trend of increasing desire to fight in Ichi's actions? Or am I reading too much into recent events? And what could be the reasons behind this change?

Edit: By the way, that is what I would love to see in Bleach as an ending.......after Ichi has saved all his friends, and there's noone left who needs protecting. He gets a chance to leave behind the fighting and walk away.......only to be drawn by Kenpachi's challenge. I just don't think it's in Kenpachi's nature to give up all hopes of a rematch. Once the war ends, if he's still alive......he and Ichigo have a date to keep :D.

BleachOD

2008-03-09, 19:04

This might be the wrong thread to bring this up....but it doesn't seem a bad place to start. Does anyone else think that Ichigo's character is evolving into someone who likes to fight more and more? Early on, fighting was a chore for Ichi, or a way to protect his friends.
But then there was that encounter with his hollow, where he learned from his inner Kenpachi that he also has the fighting instinct. Since then, there have been hints that he's starting to enjoy the fight for the sake of it. First in the anime filler arc (Forest of Menos) where Rukia has to admonish him that he should forget the adjuchas and retreat even though he wanted to kill them all. Then of course, against Ulquiorra, he attacked Ulqui first without waiting to be forced into it. (Contrast this to his fight against Byakuya in SS, when he engaged only when Kuchiki tried to attack him).
Later also, Grimm made it pretty clear that he thought Ichi wanted to settle their score , not just protect. And finally, Kenpachi made it clear he thinks Ichi is just in SS for the fights. There are a few possible explanations for this change:

1) Ichigo wants to settle score for all the damage that's been done to his friends by Aizen and co.
2) He realizes that his friends will never be safe until his enemies are killed.
3) He's beginning to enjoy all the constant fighting and battles, even if he doesn't realize it yet. The Hichigo/Kenpachi side of his personality is manifesting more. I don't mean his inner hollow is taking over or anything. It's just that Hichigo is an aspect of his personality, not a completely alien invader. Now that Ichigo has accepted that part of himself, it's gaining more expression.

If I had to choose one explanation, I personally find number 3 the most intriguing.
Does anyone else spot the same trend of increasing desire to fight in Ichi's actions? Or am I reading too much into recent events? And what could be the reasons behind this change?
By the way, I hope we don't need to bring Ichi-Ruki vs Ichi-Ori into this debate too much?Personally, I think it's the other way around. In the Manga Ichigo was always fighting and seemed to enjoy it. His wanting to prove his superiority over Ganju proves this. Kubo turned him into a bitch..for awhile. His shit-talking to Grimjow was much like his old self. Nothing to do with shipping.

Thats the cocky, grinning shit-talking, Ichigo I fell in love with. I like his niceness. But I much enjoyed his Gangsta... The shit he talks when first meets Renji...Is what put me on the path...You asked me and I could never tell you what. Thats mostly why I think he is a bad ass. I don't like the "I have no reason to fight you Ichigo" Who is that?! That hasn't been his character since the first chapter. The Ichigo I know and love...Loves to fight.

That and he makes me laugh my ass off. (IchiRuki has nothing to do with this)

Amirali

2008-03-09, 19:28

If we stick by the theory that Hichigo only shows traits that Ichigo himself possesses.......then he's one cocky, proud, bloodthirsty bastard deep down :) .

Zu Ra

2008-03-09, 19:30

Wait why are we discussing Ichigo intention in Hollow Powers thread ? ... I just saw the title most of the posts are not even relevant to thread topic

Amirali

2008-03-09, 19:33

Am trying to see if that intent links to his hollow side, Hichigo which falls under the purview of the thread. I admit, the connection is not a very strong one. Anyway, I trust your judgment on this one Geta......so I will move on now and cease posting about this.

sonygamer2010

2008-06-09, 21:18

dealing with the Hougyoku, i think it has a part in ichigo's hollow powers, but not a huge role. the Hougyoku's ability is to destroy or fade the line between shinigami and hollow. the Hougyoku was in Rukia when ichigo got his first shinigami powers. alot of people think that this is why ichigo is strong and other stuff. i think the some of the power of the Hougyoku was passed on to ichigo, but not all of it. all it did was thin the line between his shinigami powers and his soon to be hollow powers. when he was in the pit, the Hougyoku's power gave him resistance to the hollowfication process and allowed him to gain his shinigami powers as well as his hollow powers. other than that, the Hougyoku is nothing, as its only purpose is to thin, fade, destroy the line between the 2 types, however u want to put it. it did not give him an extra power boost or anything else.

and one more thing, i know this doesnt belong in this thread, but how cool would it be if ichigo used his getsuga tenshoin(i know its spelled wrong) in a twister form in his Bankai state? i think it would look awsome.

AnimeFreak1981

2008-06-16, 23:30

cloak_and_dagger

2008-06-17, 07:15

You are wrong.

That's just in the anime. In the manga it's only a doodle at the end of the chapter. Depicting Rukia and the robe. and Urahara's leg. That's when he gave her the gigai...to hide her. Not the Hougyoku. That's an anime boo boo.

Aizen says in the anime and manga. That by the time he found the out the the LOCATION and WHO it was hidden in Rukia had already left.
Since I know you won't take my word for it...I will prove (Hougyoku is a theory I kicked around and I have had my share of Aizen debates in other forums so I know it off gate)http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/gifs/7c00a009.gif
He says this in the anime ep 61 at 20:27-:38

And chapter 175 volume Volume 20 pg 13 & 14

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-13.png
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-14.png

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/609/proof1yo3.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof1yo3.jpg)

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1553/proof12xd6.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof12xd6.jpg)

So you see the Urahara had already hid the Hougyoku in Rukia before she met Ichigo. And before he fled society. He got exiled for creating the Gigai he gave her. It was a preventative measure in case the location of the Hougyoku was discovered. It was a by chance that Rukia was delivered into his hands.

The Gigai's purpose was to conceal the location of the Hougyoku. It was not the means in which he gave it to her.

Aizens explains this..

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4075/gigaiexplanation101fu3.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigaiexplanation101fu3.jpg)

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8866/gigaiexplanation1012ls7.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigaiexplanation1012ls7.jpg)

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/491/gigaiexplanation1013xc3.th.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigaiexplanation1013xc3.jpg)

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-15.png
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/ichigowife/manga-rainbleach-ch175-16.png

It's a common mistake. Hoped that helped to clear it up for you.:D

I can't believe I'm now reading this :twitch: thanks for clearing that up. I now have to ask this: why in the world did Urahara choose Rukia? We son't even know when he hid the hogyouku in her...Byakuya must not have been happy when he found out..:uhoh:

Hov

2008-06-17, 08:54

Does anyone besides me think that there's a relation between Ichigo and Hiroyi's hollowfication? Being that both are the only 2 masks with red markings, and they both took the longest to defeat their inner hollow? :confused:

X207

2008-06-17, 09:53

is ichigo capable of using cero when he has his hollow mask on while the hollow is supressed within?

HiroInazuma

2008-06-17, 10:21

is ichigo capable of using cero when he has his hollow mask on while the hollow is supressed within?

We have only seen him use a cero once and he was in full hollow form but it is possible that he could use the cero with his mask on but just doesn't know how. It would be cool if we saw Ichigo use a Grand Rey Cero mixed with a getsuga tenshou

cloak_and_dagger

2008-06-17, 15:08

We have only seen him use a cero once and he was in full hollow form but it is possible that he could use the cero with his mask on but just doesn't know how. It would be cool if we saw Ichigo use a Grand Rey Cero mixed with a getsuga tenshou

GRAND REY TENSHOU!!! :D

Hov

2008-06-17, 17:47

is ichigo capable of using cero when he has his hollow mask on while the hollow is supressed within?

Shinji used a cero against grimmjow so I'm sure Ichigo and the rest could.

X207

2008-06-18, 00:05

ty HiroInazuma, Hov. i wonder if cero will be one of the next few power upgrades. ichigo hollow+ grand rey cero= :eek:

also, when did shinji use a cero vs grimmjow?

Hov

2008-06-18, 11:38

ty HiroInazuma, Hov. i wonder if cero will be one of the next few power upgrades. ichigo hollow+ grand rey cero= :eek:

also, when did shinji use a cero vs grimmjow?

Episode 139. When Ichigo left the vizard hideout to fight grimmjow for round 2 (when lupi and yammi were there) and got his ass kicked cause his mask broke in 11 seconds and shinji saved him and rukia.

X207

2008-06-18, 11:54

Episode 139. When Ichigo left the vizard hideout to fight grimmjow for round 2 (when lupi and yammi were there) and got his ass kicked cause his mask broke in 11 seconds and shinji saved him and rukia.

ty very much, i often forget such details when it comes to a long manga/anime series.

sonygamer2010

2008-12-14, 22:54

This is waaaayyy off the topic, but who do you think would win in a fight to the death? Shinji or Aizen? my votes on S:hinji.

hakisak

2009-02-21, 17:33

This was born from a discussion/debate, because I said three things…;

If Ichigo himself cannot beat Ulquiorra, than neither will his hollow be able to.
Ichigo is the strongest character in Bleach right now as he is. He just happens to be the strongest character with the LEAST experience.

Ichigo does not have unreasonable power-ups-he doesn’t power up at all. He is already strong, it because of a seal. He cannot fully use them. If he’s seen getting stronger it’s because he unconsciously released that seal. Either that, or it’s more of his immense powers has come out, because even that seal is not enough to hold it all in (KT has explained how his powers work already.)

There seems to be a big misconception when it comes to Ichigo's power, his hollow powers in general.

I notice people keep saying that Ichigo needs to win on his own. Or his hollow needs to fight for him. People talk about Oigichi as if he is separate entity from Ichigo and if he comes out and win. It won't truly be Ichigo's win.

This disturbs me, because Oigichi and Ichigo's relationship IS NOT symbiotic. Oigichi is just an alter ego. When you are looking at him, or Zangetsu you are looking at Ichigo-- Just another form. Zangetsu is Ichigo's character—the part of him that is the noble and selfless hero. Ogichi is his battle instinct--and the part of him that says "I need five ambulances because ...we'll have five dead bodies" before he kicks someone's ass.

When he is talking to them, he is just meditating and having a talk with his own self, they are his power, born from his "True Spirit".

Because Ichigo character design is simple, I don’t think anyone but true Ichigo fans realize that he is not only the strongest character as he is right now. His character is also the most complex.

It also makes me wonder if people realize , Bleach is actually a story of “The Journey of Self Discovery’” disguised as an action Manga.

Because Ichigo’s powers can walk and talk, whenever we discuss power levels,Naruto is always mentioned.

I also noticed that it is often compared to Naruto because of just that at times, without people realizing why..(Self Discovery)
Though they have many similarities, the differences between the two manga’s are…

Naruto’s Characters have a set of pre-designed moves that are hidden and you have to find them
Bleach Characters : –Shinigami; Ichigo’s powers especially ,are not.

The reason I prefer Bleach over Naruto is...;

Bleach’s Shinigami powers do not work for you.--Just because they are your powers; and you find them.

They are representation of your true self. In other words they are truly not alive they are just the avatars for your “Living Will”.
Once you unlock your powers, you have to figure out what they are. The only way to accomplish this goal, is through self discovery

Zangetsu and Ogichi (The avatars only; The Old Man and the White Version of Ichigo) have two roles.

~One of them is, they function as guides and not teachers. They are there to guide you on while; you on the path, but only you can choose which path you seek.

~Their second role took is take on the form, of whatever it is he needs to use to succeed in life. When you figure out what is in life you want to achieve-a new ability that suits only you, is created.

It’s just in order to succeed, he has to know exactly what it are he wants and what he needs to get it.

These new tools/weapons are created to help you accomplish this task.

This is the reason they cannot tell him anything; only Ichigo can tell Ichigo can tell Ichigo about Ichigo.

Only Ichigo can figure out what it is he needs, in order to succeed in life and be happy.

He does not always need them to do this and this why we do not always see them when he’s seemingly, had a power-up.
If he figures this out on his own, he does not need a guide and can make use of his powers on his own (The unreasonable power-ups) it is when he cannot figure out what part he needs to change.

When he cannot find the pieces of his heart that are fragmented due to his emotional issues own his own. The ones that hinder him, the ones that need repairing , it is then he unconsciously seeks out the avatars, to guide him.

After he’d lost them, Ichigo wanted to regain Shinigami powers for a selfish reason. Because of this he believed he had to learn about, just because he needed them to save Rukia. Because this was selfish in nature, his powers would not fully cooperate with him.

~As a result Zangetsu broke---during a fight with Zaraki. Zaraki represents a part of Ichigo’s own character that he needed to change.

It was when he realized that he didn’t just want his powers for his own selfish reason that he actually wanted to know about them. He was given another chance.

If you noticed , he didn’t learn anything about them at all; instead we learned something about Ichigo. (After being told his failings by Ogichi who is also an image of Ichigo’s inner turmoil)

The questions he asked, Zangetsu were really self-exploratory in nature.

“I wanna know… Can you tell me old man Zangetsu? Just a little at time… Things about you. … I wanna know about you who give me strength. And one more time…you and me, fight together!”

He realized he not only needed his powers to save Rukia, he needed them to find himself. He asked for another chance to do so. Once this understood, he was given another chance; and a new ability was created. Zangetsu cauterized his wounds, and then doubled his powers.

. That is what Ichigo meant by the words
“Zanpakuto aren’t just tools, they are alive and I am fighting together, with Zangetsu.”

He is Zangetsu, and Zangetsu is Ichigo…he is alive because that is the manifestation of “Ichigo’s true heart, his soul—his character”
It was also then Zangetsu, told you about Ichigo.

“When your heart is in chaos, the sky becomes cloudy. When you are said the rain falls easily”
“I hate the rain. … Ichigo Rain falls in this world too. ..Can you understand the horror of being pelted by rain in a solitary world”
That statement is representative of the, feelings of isolation, loneliness, and depression all of which Ichigo suffers from

~He also told Ichigo that if he will believe in himself, if he has confidence in his own abilities instead of concentrating on his failings and feelings of misery. There was nothing he couldn’t do and thus he’d never be unhappy. As evidenced by the statement

“ If only to stop that rain, I shall lend you any strength”

*******

Another example that I can present to you, my theory is correct, is the rest of
Ichigo’s statements.
“You who will never believe in anything but his own strength will never understand that”
“Your sword hasn’t got a name? Then your sword can’t get any stronger…that’s a relief” (Ichigo was not confident, his own skill was enough to win)

Zaraki suffers from self doubt. It is why he cannot speak to his sword. The reason he cannot hear the name of his sword, is because he doubts such a thing exists. This is actually an example of self doubt. Despite what he says, he doesn’t not truly believe himself, so his unable to fully use his powers. (Because he has his own issues, but this not about him)

Zaraki ‘s character is literally a representation of one of Ichigo’s own faults.

The earliest evidence; that I can present that the my ENTIRE theory is correct, is Ichigo’s fight with Ishida.

~Ichigo allowed himself to be goaded into that fight with Ishida for a selfish reason. He agreed to fight he didn’t really want because of injured pride.

~The costs of his being led by his pride, people’s lives were put in danger.

When he realized the situation was his created because of his own selfishness. Through that selfishness he would be inflicting the very suffering on others , that he himself, is plagued by…He decided to atone for that, even if it was at the cost of his own life.

It was because this was Ichigo’s own problem he needed to overcome. His own powers were needed, so the seal that held them in was broken, and the move Getsuga Tensho was born.

Ichigo was able to gain redemption through his action, but it was not without cost to him. He was punished because he chose to kill hollows for a selfish reason and not because he wanted to save anyone. As result his own powers ripped him apart.

However, no good deed goes unrewarded, if it was done as an act of selflessness.

~This time he wanted killed hollows to protect others, and not for his own satisfaction.

As result a he was rewarded and Ishida saves him at the cost of his own life because he had also done the very same thing.

Ishida’s punishment was realizing that he was the image of the very thing he hated.

This is an really an example of displaced anger and self hatred (Which Ichigo also suffers from) For Ishida this was punishment enough and he was able to gain atonement at the cost of his own life—by saving Ichigo’s.

The reason Ichigo cannot beat Ulquiorra as of right now. He has not yet, realized his true desires.

This is the first step to understanding how Ichigo’s powers function and when I come back. I will show you how I applied all the above, as a way to measure power-up’s and look at “The faucet” explanation once again.

Dream_Traveller

2009-02-21, 17:50

Again, serious business, am I right?

hakisak

2009-02-21, 18:04

I am an otaku...P

Dream_Traveller

2009-02-21, 18:04

Best that you learn the MST3K Mantra, then.

Sabaku Kyu

2009-02-21, 18:30

If Ichigo himself cannot beat Ulquiorra, than neither will his hollow be able to.
Ichigo is the strongest character in Bleach right now as he is. He just happens to be the strongest character with the LEAST experience.

Ichigo does not have unreasonable power-ups-he doesn’t power up at all. He is already strong, it because of a seal. He cannot fully use them. If he’s seen getting stronger it’s because he unconsciously released that seal. Either that, or it’s more of his immense powers has come out, because even that seal is not enough to hold it all in (KT has explained how his powers work already.)

Unconsciously releasing power is still a power-up, "power-up" is just a generic term to describe any sudden leap in strength or ability, whether it's calling on supernatural force, the result of an intense training arc, or just releasing hidden potential (the "Gohan effect").

I agree that Ichigo may have tons of power he has yet to tap, but nowhere in the manga will you actually find it stated that he possesses the strongest powers. The only people Ichigo's been directly compared to in terms of raw power are Zaraki and Ulqiorria and both of them only vaguely labeled Ichigo's power as somewhere above their own.

This disturbs me, because Oigichi and Ichigo's relationship IS NOT symbiotic. Oigichi is just an alter ego. When you are looking at him, or Zangetsu you are looking at Ichigo-- Just another form. Zangetsu is Ichigo's character—the part of him that is the noble and selfless hero. Ogichi is his battle instinct--and the part of him that says "I need five ambulances because ...we'll have five dead bodies" before he kicks someone's ass.

When he is talking to them, he is just meditating and having a talk with his own self, they are his power, born from his "True Spirit".

What? It's been shown many times that zanpakuto's aren't alter-egos. Zabimaru, Houyrinmaru and the other zanpakuto's are separate entities from the shinigami they guide. Tousen's zanpakuto originally belonged another shinigami. Heck, Urahara's zanpakuto is female, if that's his alter-ego then he has some serious identity issues.

It's true that zanpakutos seem only to be able to communicate with the shinigami who own them (except in special cases like Ichigo's bankai training) and that they are linked to the shinigami's pysche, sometimes they even exhibit similar behavior (Yumichika and Matsumoto's zanpakuto) but they aren't merely " split personalities". Hichigo's case isn't as clear, but I'm guessing it's similar.

Zaraki suffers from self doubt. It is why he cannot speak to his sword. The reason he cannot hear the name of his sword, is because he doubts such a thing exists. This is actually an example of self doubt. Despite what he says, he doesn’t not truly believe himself, so his unable to fully use his powers. (Because he has his own issues, but this not about him)

Zaraki ‘s character is literally a representation of one of Ichigo’s own faults.

Actually, It's the opposite. Kenpachi can't use his zanpakuto because he believes only in himself. He couldn't use his zanpakuto (and didn't want to) because he viewed using a sword as a partner as opposed to a tool for killing as weak and believed that relying only on one's personal strength was the ultimate form of fighting. That was the fault he represented in Ichigo who still largely viewed Zangetsu as weapon rather than a comrade at that point.

Cub-Sama

2009-02-21, 18:34

Don't forget yer spoiler tabs, this isn't a Manga thread...

Unconsciously releasing power is still a power-up, "power-up" is just a generic term to describe any sudden leap in strength, whether it's calling on supernatural force, the result of an intense training arc, or just releasing hidden potential (the "Gohan effect").

I agree that Ichigo may have tons of power he has yet to tap, but nowhere in the manga will you actually find it stated that he possesses the strongest powers. The only people Ichigo's been directly compared to in terms of raw power are Zaraki and Ulqiorria and both of them only vaguely labeled Ichigo's power as somewhere above their own.

What? It's been shown many times that zanpakuto's aren't alter-egos. Zabimaru, Houyrinmaru and the other zanpakuto's are separate entities from the shinigami they guide. Tousen's zanpakuto originally belonged another shinigami. Heck, Urahara's zanpakuto is female, if that's his alter-ego then he has some serious identity issues. It's true that zanpakutos seem only to be able to communicate with the shinigami who own them (except in special cases like Ichigo's bankai training) and that they are linked to the shingami's pysche, but they aren't merely "personalities"

Actually, It's the opposite. Kenpachi can't use his zanpakuto because he believes only in himself. He couldn't use his zanpakuto (and didn't want to) because he viewed using a sword as a partner as opposed to a tool for killing as weak and believed that relying only on one's personal strength was the ultimate form of fighting. That was the fault he represented in Ichigo who still largely viewed Zangetsu as weapon rather than a comrade at that point.

My sentiments exactly, just lacked how I could put it in words.

hakisak

2009-02-21, 23:32

@ Kyu.. Dude I am not finished...I have to paint. Hahaha...it's just you have to have the basic understanding of how his powers work, before you can measure his power level against others.

I notice people really don't understand them---

I don't believe he is strong because I like him...I love him because he's HELLA STRONG.

When I see Zangetsu and Ogichi...I can only see Ichigo. There is no separation of characters...that is the problem a lot of people have....which keeps them from seeing just how great his powers are because they aren't always housed in the same form. (When you see them)

Damn it! They found out I am at the computer....:upset:

GTG!

Sabaku Kyu

2009-02-22, 21:30

When I see Zangetsu and Ogichi...I can only see Ichigo. There is no separation of characters...that is the problem a lot of people have....which keeps them from seeing just how great his powers are because they aren't always housed in the same form. (When you see them)

I agree that Zangetsu and Hichigo's powers are both part of Ichigo's strength.

But separate character or alter-ego, Hichigo doesn't represent Ichigo's true will. He's dangerous and there's no telling what exactly he'll do when he's in control. That's why there's a difference in which one is fighting. The whole point of the vizard training was so that Hichigo wouldn't have to be in control in order for Ichigo to use his full power. If he depended on Hichigo to win a fight, it would be a regression. A victory for the hollow, not Ichigo himself.

hakisak

2009-02-23, 22:29

*Priming my weapons. TEST LAUNCH* :uhoh:

---->http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3641/yammisarmfz2.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yammisarmfz2.jpg)http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/384/yammisarm2uu0.th.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yammisarm2uu0.jpg)http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2714/yammisarm3bp4.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yammisarm3bp4.jpg)<--

You may be wondering why I chose these images when. Yami is ranked tenth and Ulquiorra fourth. (Soon all will be clear)

Just in case you are thinking it... I didn't just post that because I wanted to reiterate the fact that Ulquiorra said when Ichigo was stronger than him when he was at lowest peak.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7720/thinkaboutforaminuteej9.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thinkaboutforaminuteej9.jpg)

And I didn't post these to just to say ....
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6005/howichiggopowersworkzp2.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=howichiggopowersworkzp2.jpg)http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5995/lowestpossiblestateml2.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lowestpossiblestateml2.jpg)http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8031/infinitesupplydl7.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=infinitesupplydl7.jpg)
Posted by another user, he said it so beautifully. I have don't have to...::heh:

If I may, I'd just like to bring up something Ishida observed in chapter 49 page 16 and on.

He talks about how Ichigo's full power is almost never technically being used, since if you did this for very long, you'd use up all your spiritual energy. He likened Ichigo's spiritual power's usage to a faucet, in that he often stops the flow until an outside force requires him to let it flow again. This outside force, at the time, may well be the realization that his current power isn't enough to overpower Ulquiorra.

I know you are probably wondering why posted this, because Ichigo was being overwhelmed Not really :rofl
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5206/sowhatsy5.th.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sowhatsy5.jpg)http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5108/sowhat2mx4.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sowhat2mx4.jpg)http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/230/sowhat3kb3.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sowhat3kb3.jpg)
Yes it's the fight where the man who proves that you can still wear wings and dress---and not look like an Uke. Has just broken "Poor Ichigo's " Mask. <--OW! it hurt me to lie like that.
And... why not only is he sporting new digs...:eek: He's unveiled his new "BLACK CERO" :rolleyes:

Which makes me say....SO WHAT?! :uhoh:

Does it really matter if he could break the mask?
Ichigo REPAIRED it. Does it matter if he can hit him with that "Black" (:rolleyes:) Cero?

--> HIGH SPEED REGENERATION ABILITY<--.

He can blow off a couple of limbs...Ichigo can JUST GROW THEM BACK! :heh:

Just for the hell of it...:heh:
Not to mention the most important image out of all the ones that are above.

>>>thishttp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7720/thinkaboutforaminuteej9.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thinkaboutforaminuteej9.jpg) one<<<

I want to examine his statement again...

"At his "lowest peak" this guy is trash. Yet at his "highest Peak" his powers are greater than mine~Ulquiorra

I want to ask you doubters...Ahouga? :headscratch

What is Ichigo's "Lowest Peak" and what exactly is his 'highest peak"

Because its already been proven above that Ichigo' usual abilities are always in "OFF MODE". Unless something rips it off...

It's been proven he doesn't know how to control it, countess times--> Here-->http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2601/cluelessvw7.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cluelessvw7.jpg)--> is just one of them

I have to bring this up...http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5238/chokedsb4.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chokedsb4.jpg)http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2147/choked2qd8.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=choked2qd8.jpg)http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5751/choked3qt4.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=choked3qt4.jpg)http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4026/choked4wc8.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=choked4wc8.jpg)

See that? Ichigo almost choked? Right? Do you remember why? Did you ever consider the facts:

"FACTS THAT CAN'T BE DENIED"

~Ichigo didn't have control over his own hollow.

~He didn't even have a full mask.

~Hell still doesn't have full control over his Bankai

Common Sense should tell you..at no time in those moments was Ichigo EVER at his "HIGHEST PEAK" :lmao

Which means like Ulquiorra said "At his lowest peak he's just trash"

Did it occur to you--- Ichigo's lowest *Trash Level* peak--without him having been a full Vizard was actually "Greater" than Ulquiorra's HIGHEST LEVEL? (YOU WANNA TAKE HIS WORD FOR EVERYTHING..EAT THAT!):heh:

Did you ever consider; before he choked. Ichigo just cut the arm off an Espada who was Ranked 10th, without breaking a sweat?
(Something that neither Yourichi nor Urahara could do without sustaining damage or trickery)
That at some point, while Ichigo was owning Yami-->http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7018/hesimpressedandichigoiscy3.th.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hesimpressedandichigoiscy3.jpg)--> His powers without all the above, were greater than Ulq's?

DID IT OCCUR TO YOU...That if he had not choked. If Ichigo had not had to fight for control of his body and--his sanity,when he saw their masks and swords. That in all likelihood, he would have just whipped both their asses? :confused:

Did it occur to you that Ulquiorra can only own him now because as Ichigo http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2601/cluelessvw7.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cluelessvw7.jpg)--said himself, --he's inept? That it isn't because Ulquiorra's is so bad assed and STRONG? :stare: I know his character design is convincing but don't let that fool you. He's really not that much to talk about...in terms of powers. If you really want to know--I am not that impressed. Look how he looks if you compare him to a handicapped Ichigo:rolleyes:

Did it ever occur to you, he's only winning BECAUSE Ichigo DOESN'T know shit? :heh:
Um... Yeah! That dude really owns ICHIGO. NOT!!!:cool:

:heh:

hakisak

2009-02-24, 12:31

See it this way, regen is a passive skill, Ichigo always just re-applies his mask, kinda like a curaga instead of a hax-regen. Compare this to the time he was in full-hollow mode and his arm just regrew in a split second or when Ishida was fighting that menos and the time he was left panting for a while then using his hand to remake it.

No shit...:uhoh:

:heh:

My point is .. Regeneration. is Regeneration. He has that skill for reason. Was he a full Hollow when he used it during the training? No he was still a half ling...

Why wouldn't you think if Ulquiorra blew a limb off, he wouldn't use it. I bet that happens in one of his fights

Btw, I like how you attack the rengeration argument ...and gloss over everything I said about powers.

(Kaf...Who's side are you on? :upset: Do you want me to stab you?!")

:p

Now that I have calmed down. *Simba?* come here... (Kitty-sama thats you)

>>>>http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5198/icanusethislater.th.jpg (http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icanusethislater.jpg)<<<<
(don't be afraid. Click on it)

"You could say it's fighting with with the power within"

Posted by *Simba*

could mean that the reiatsu levels were fluctuating between Hichigo's power lvls and Ichigo's

Let me explain... Wait. Excuse me for a second? :uhoh:... *HEADDESK*...

I'm back...

The reiatsu level doesn't fluctuate between the two. The part you are misunderstanding...

Hichigo--Ogichi IS THE DAMN POWER LEVEL!!!!

STOP THINKING ABOUT NARUTO!!!!!:frustrated:

Kafriel

2009-02-24, 13:05

No shit...
Why wouldn't you think if Ulquiorra blew a limb off, he wouldn't use it. I bet that happens in one of his fights
(Kaf...Who's side are you on? Do you want me to stab you?!")
If Ichigo's limbs were blown off it would fall in the hole down the dome and right on Orihime, who would stick it back on <_<
Well, regeneration or not, it's still one of Ichigo's powers and he can use it until he is totally drained.I'M ON ICHIGO'S SIDE!

Cub-Sama

2009-02-24, 16:58

I'm here...is this the part where I am scarred from Hakisak's debating and left weeping in the darkest pits of this forum?

hakisak, Cub-sama is going to think Ulquiorra is stronger than Ichigo no matter what you or Ulquiorra himself says. Basically, you are peeing in the wind.

Not really, I know Ichigo has to beat Ulquiorra it is the way of the plot, I just want his defeat to be good so he doesn't go down in some hax or crappy way (Szayel and the sword of imepending doom).

Also Hakisak I am not saying that Hichigo and Ichigo are two different entities but Hichigo is what his fully pledged spirit is so he can access more of Ichigo's true abilties because he is a part of Ichigo's soul and does not need to break the seal, it's like Hichigo being able to use a whole reservoir because he controls/owns the reservoir but Ichigo is only using the tap so it is more controlled. It is only when Ichigo gets bigger pipes when the real water will come out

*shivers* Please don't choke me maam, I'll be good...:p

One final thing I say that he can only use it on his mask is because his body is a human body still even with the mask, his mask though is part of a hollow so him just fixing it after it has been broken seems logical but his body is not fully hollow and the hollows just fixes it instinctively and does not need to force it to happen. Kafriel I think it is more like auto-regen because a curaga has to be cast but an auto-regen just happens, more like a reactive ability IMHO.

Also if Ichigo's arm blew off and it grew back I swear, Kubo better say that Ichigo is actually half namekian or I will be so p*ssed off, also Ichigo's body is living breathing cells only they can heal the wounds whilst the mask is part of the spirit....how do spirits have so much blood they waster gallons every fight?

One question if Hollows can use high speed regeneration what happened to every released espada they faced, or is it like only certain hollows can use it (VL)

hakisak

2009-02-24, 17:16

If Ichigo's limbs were blown off it would fall in the hole down the dome and right on Orihime, who would stick it back on <_<
Well, regeneration or not, it's still one of Ichigo's powers and he can use it until he is totally drained.I'M ON ICHIGO'S SIDE! You'd better be...:p

No time...I have to think first.

@Simba....I won't hurt you. I just want to hurt you, but I won't...:uhoh:

:heh:

Yeah could you not reply in the manga thread? Here is better.

Glacial

2009-02-24, 20:46

One question if Hollows can use high speed regeneration what happened to every released espada they faced, or is it like only certain hollows can use it (VL)

Well...Nnoi used it =D

And I don't think it's a trait common to every hollow, otherwise Kensei wouldn't have been surprised when he noticed transforming-Ichigo using it :P

Also since Ichigo's hollow can't be a VL, or even a menos for that matter (Ichigo doesn't eat hollows...) I'd naturally assume that it isn't exclusive to Vastos either (besides, most everyone believes Nnoitra was an adjucha).

Cub-Sama

2009-02-24, 21:31

I thought that was just an ability of Nnoitora's own, with how he can continually recreate new arms after they have been cut off.

Also Hakisak an entry from Bleach pedia:

Immense Spiritual Power: Hollow Ichigo has a remarkable amount of energy, equal to or perhaps greater than Ichigo. since Ulquiorra-the fourth strongest among the Espada-claimed that Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated from weak to higher than his own.

Expert Swordsmanship Specialist: In terms of fighting style, Hollow Ichigo relies mostly on his Zanpakutō and the use of flash steps to move at very high speeds, and thus would be considered a swordsmanship specialist. His skills in both are much greater than Ichigo's (at least until he was defeated) as he is able to use them in more versatile and effective manuevers, such as using his Shikai as a flail.

Cero: Like all Hollows, Hollow Ichigo can use a cero blast, but he only uses it once.

Flash Steps Expert: In addition to greater raw strength, Hollow Ichigo is also noticeably faster than Ichigo. His attack patterns generally are harder to read and keep up with, allowing him to strike down his opponent easier.

The Hollow is seen to be much more powerful than Ichigo, overpowering Ichigo very easily. His physical strength is already much greater than Ichigo's, while he gains any power that Ichigo does, evidenced by his use of Bankai. He is capable of deflecting Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshō with his unarmed left hand, and his own Getsuga Tenshō is incomparably stronger than Ichigo's. His actual limit is unknown, as he was never in any case seen fighting with all his strength.

The Hollow is capable of taking over Ichigo's body and powers when Ichigo falls unconscious in a fight. In this occurrence, Ichigo's sclera blacken and his irises glow golden-yellow in combination with a hollow mask forming on the left side of his face (Note; In episode 82 of the anime Ichigo's eye was not changed; this was corrected in other countries). Hollow Ichigo fights like a berserker and is shown to be sadistic, he is also capable of ignoring any injuries Ichigo has sustained up to the point of him taking possession of the body, with considerably increased speed and strength.

Kafriel

2009-02-25, 01:08

Well...Nnoi used it =D
Noittra just had his wounds healed when he released his sword, if he had high-speed regeneration then all the wounds inflicted upon him would be automatically healing before Kenpachi had a chance to strike again.
Arrancar don't have high-speed regen because it would be uber-hax, in Ryuuken's words "you can only face with high-speed regeneration by killing it before it has a chance to regen (1HKO)", and felling an espada in one blow is definitely impossible for most shinigami, unless it' Yammy (I hope Ishida's bomb killed him straight away:P)

hakisak

2009-02-25, 01:55

I thought that was just an ability of Nnoitora's own, with how he can continually recreate new arms after they have been cut off.

Also Hakisak an entry from Bleach pedia:

What the hell was your point? :confused:

You know thats a summary "some random person" wrote, right? :uhoh:

I'd rather listen to Kubo....:heh:

Glacial

2009-02-25, 03:33

Noittra just had his wounds healed when he released his sword, if he had high-speed regeneration then all the wounds inflicted upon him would be automatically healing before Kenpachi had a chance to strike again.
Arrancar don't have high-speed regen because it would be uber-hax, in Ryuuken's words "you can only face with high-speed regeneration by killing it before it has a chance to regen (1HKO)", and felling an espada in one blow is definitely impossible for most shinigami, unless it' Yammy (I hope Ishida's bomb killed him straight away:P)

he grew back arms o.o

and your Ryuuken quote proves my point: kendo did the trick

Cub-Sama

2009-02-25, 07:54

What the hell was your point? :confused:

You know thats a summary "some random person" wrote, right? :uhoh:

I'd rather listen to Kubo....:heh:

Kubo has shown that Hichigo is stronger than Ichigo before, when Hichigo comes out he demolishes opponents Ichigo was having trouble with before. Even in the battle in the mind Hichigo was only toying with Ichigo, because that was not a battle and more of a lecture to make Ichigo a more suitable king, his real power has never been established and he has everything Ichigo learns plus his own hollow powers which is stronger than Ichigo's as he is the hollow powers incarnate.

Arachne

2009-02-25, 14:00

Kubo has shown that Hichigo is stronger than Ichigo before, when Hichigo comes out he demolishes opponents Ichigo was having trouble with before. Even in the battle in the mind Hichigo was only toying with Ichigo, because that was not a battle and more of a lecture to make Ichigo a more suitable king, his real power has never been established and he has everything Ichigo learns plus his own hollow powers which is stronger than Ichigo's as he is the hollow powers incarnate.

Aren't they the same person?

Cub-Sama

2009-02-25, 14:08

Aren't they the same person?

IMO Zangetsu is Ichigo himself but Shirosaki is a mutation of his soul, an anomaly never meant to exist.

Kafriel

2009-02-25, 15:25

Ichigo's alter ego was created as a result of his unorthodox way of becoming a Shinigami (the official way is dying, going to rukongai, showing signs of reiatsu and then enrolling to the shinigami academy). If you want to blame someone, blame Ichigo for wanting his powers back, and Urahara for a)using that method to give them to him and b)not stopping him when he went off to face Renji/Byakuya. So yes, Ichigo's hollow side is a mistake :heh:

hakisak

2009-02-26, 20:43

IMO Zangetsu is Ichigo himself but Shirosaki is a mutation of his soul, an anomaly never meant to exist.

Useless details. He does exist. He mutated into is a Hollw-based reiatsu. Oigichi is just an avatar for Ichigo's OWN POWER!!!

Why do you people keep trying to separate them?!?!? All because you just can't admit Ichigo is strong.
*throws hands in the air* ...Arrrrrrgggggggggh!

Cub-Sama

2009-02-26, 21:10

Useless details. He does exist. He mutated into is a Hollw-based reiatsu. Oigichi is just an avatar for Ichigo's OWN POWER!!!

Why do you people keep trying to separate them?!?!? All because you just can't admit Ichigo is strong.
*throws hands in the air* ...Arrrrrrgggggggggh!

If you have read my posts I said in terms of raw power he may be the strongest in Bleach but in overall strength he is kind of weak.

Also Hichigo is a mistake which is why you have to force inner hollows into submission because otherwise they would take over because they want to be the dominant personality. They don't want to work for you unlike Shinigami spirits who are willing to work for you and all it takes is communication. In some ways he is like the Kyuubi and is slowly merging into one with Ichigo as he continues using it. Which is why Ichigo uses a lot more instinct than before.

Kafriel

2009-02-27, 01:35

Also Hichigo is a mistake which is why you have to force inner hollows into submission because otherwise they would take over because they want to be the dominant personality. They don't want to work for you unlike Shinigami spirits who are willing to work for you and all it takes is communication. In some ways he is like the Kyuubi and is slowly merging into one with Ichigo as he continues using it. Which is why Ichigo uses a lot more instinct than before.
But I bet Ulquiorra will say "Your spirit is your strongest weapon" and then Ichigo will say "no...it is my best friend" and he will come to terms with his hollow side and his mask will be half again, one side for each :P

CCLemon

2009-02-27, 03:42

But I bet Ulquiorra will say "Your spirit is your strongest weapon" and then Ichigo will say "no...it is my best friend" and he will come to terms with his hollow side and his mask will be half again, one side for each :P

Yep. Ichigo's probably going to have to go through some "peace talking" with his hollow in order to get the plot powerup he needs to defeat Ulquiorra.

What bothers me is how Hichigo is portrayed differently from all other hollow personalities. The hollows we all see clearly identify themselves as the same person as before they were hollowfied, and assumedly still remember the atrocities they committed as hollows after they are purified. However, Hichigo is portrayed as identifying himself as a stronger, completely different person from Ichigo. Furthermore, Ichigo and Hichigo do not share thoughts and memories at all. Whereas Inoue's brother seemed to realize that it was him that was attacking his sister, Hichigo and Ichigo clearly view each other's actions through a third person perspective, not privy to the other's thoughts. Perhaps Kubo Tite is trying to hint that Hichigo is some kind of "special hollow persona"?

Kafriel

2009-02-27, 06:49

Yeah, that would explain why his mask is the only one that's not pure bone-white like everyone else's.

Justin Kim

2009-02-27, 06:53

I thought Ichigo's getsuga tenshou was already primarily stated by Ulq, that it was much like their very own Cero indeed. With the exception of it not being black. But primarily almost the same thing, except the reiatsu is condensed to give off a short - term burst of reiatsu effect, rather than a full - blown sustained hit. I just think Ichigo was a little bit too hasty, after all he did have experience with Espadas before he went into Los Noches. He could have asked the Vizards, how to do Cero's. But once again stated earlier, Bleach is about self - discovery. (Pertaining to one's abilities).

hakisak

2009-02-27, 09:19

^^ Use spoiler tags.

@ CC...Alter ego's do not have to share the same memories. Which they do. Ogichi shares his memories but Ichigo doesn't share his. More times than not the dominant personality is unaware of the others. The others also "watches him"

Cub-Sama

2009-02-27, 17:41

Yep. Ichigo's probably going to have to go through some "peace talking" with his hollow in order to get the plot powerup he needs to defeat Ulquiorra.

If Ichigo tries to have a peace talk with Hichigo he would probably get a beat down.

What bothers me is how Hichigo is portrayed differently from all other hollow personalities. The hollows we all see clearly identify themselves as the same person as before they were hollowfied, and assumedly still remember the atrocities they committed as hollows after they are purified. However, Hichigo is portrayed as identifying himself as a stronger, completely different person from Ichigo.

Exactly. It is because Hichigo is an anomaly never meant to exist which is why he can go against what Ichigo is really thinking whereas Zangetsu can't act against Ichigo's will, Hichigo just cuts and when Hichigo comes out everyone notices a raise in reiatsu. Shirosaki is probably like a demon taking the form of Ichigo in his mind.

sonygamer2010

2009-03-16, 07:31

Spoiler alert!
]In recent events(well, recent to me), ulqurriora seemingly killed ichigo with one of his institaious cero blasts, making a hole in his body like a hollow hole. on the last panel of the manga, as orihime calls out to ichigo to save her, she fails to notice ichigo's arm moving and his hair growing to a main, similar to his full hollow form during the vizard training. how many people think he is going to transform into his full hollow state or a variation of hollow ichigo(the form with the partial mask)?

Kyero Fox

2009-03-16, 08:31

Spoiler alert!
In recent events(well, recent to me), ulqurriora seemingly killed ichigo with one of his institaious cero blasts, making a hole in his body like a hollow hole. on the last panel of the manga, as orihime calls out to ichigo to save her, she fails to notice ichigo's arm moving and his hair growing to a main, similar to his full hollow form during the vizard training. how many people think he is going to transform into his full hollow state or a variation of hollow ichigo(the form with the partial mask)?

*hits you with a rock* waaaaaaaaay too slow dude, just about everyone knows that by now :heh:

Critias

2009-03-16, 20:13

If Ichigo tries to have a peace talk with Hichigo he would probably get a beat down.

Exactly. It is because Hichigo is an anomaly never meant to exist which is why he can go against what Ichigo is really thinking whereas Zangetsu can't act against Ichigo's will, Hichigo just cuts and when Hichigo comes out everyone notices a raise in reiatsu. Shirosaki is probably like a demon taking the form of Ichigo in his mind.

Ok since this came up, I need to ask something:

Hichigo was never supposed to exist? So Hichigo is one-of-a-kind? If so, then what did the Vizoreds mean when they talked about winning the inner fight back when they were training Ichigo? Didn't they have inner hollows too, judging from what they were talkin about? Or am I lost in translation here?

Kuroda

2009-03-16, 21:54

Ok since this came up, I need to ask something:

Hichigo was never supposed to exist? So Hichigo is one-of-a-kind? If so, then what did the Vizoreds mean when they talked about winning the inner fight back when they were training Ichigo? Didn't they have inner hollows too, judging from what they were talkin about? Or am I lost in translation here?

All of the vizards have "inner hollow" they all went though hollowfication, how else would they be vizards? However the process Ichigo got his hollow is much different from the the vizards and was pure accident in my opinion.

Cub-Sama

2009-03-17, 17:03

All of the vizards have "inner hollow" they all went though hollowfication, how else would they be vizards? However the process Ichigo got his hollow is much different from the the vizards and was pure accident in my opinion.

Exactly what I was saying, Ichigo got his powers from the natural degeneration of his chain of fate whilst the Vaizard got their powers from an infection or something along those lines. Meaning Hichigo is supposed to be what Ichigo would become if the chain of fate fully degenerated as he was stopped in the process and could not complete the transformation.

Xacual

2009-03-17, 22:11

iamdeath

2009-03-17, 22:42

Isn't his hollow mask already half / half, one side slowly becoming black while the other stays white. Does the black side represent Ichigo or Hichigo?

Edit: Actually thinking about it, Black usually always represents Ichigo in his inner world.

no as you see his vizard training he kills his hollow self and gain the power back so i doubt he return

the only thing i want to know other vizard can Cero while having mask on why cant ichigo can use it to while vizard form

But do you think getsutra teshu is form of cero of ichigo

Hitsugaya_Toushiro

2009-03-19, 02:27

Kafriel

2009-03-20, 10:47

They're meant to be black,getsuga is more narrow than cero but holds a similar effect...

Blade_ Runner

2009-03-21, 02:16

No. Cero is bit different. GT is Ichigo feeding his reiatsu into his sword...a bit and then Zangetsu amplifies it. It's not like a Cero.

Ulq doesn't know anything. You shouldn't listen to him.

Konpachi

2009-03-21, 03:30

Spoiler alert!
In recent events(well, recent to me), ulqurriora seemingly killed ichigo with one of his institaious cero blasts, making a hole in his body like a hollow hole. on the last panel of the manga, as orihime calls out to ichigo to save her, she fails to notice ichigo's arm moving and his hair growing to a main, similar to his full hollow form during the vizard training. how many people think he is going to transform into his full hollow state or a variation of hollow ichigo(the form with the partial mask)?

Use the tags.........

Same goes for the others, this thread has no MANGA tag. Dicuss manga content within the spoiler tags. Unless, someone decides to change this into a manga thread..

Kuroda

2009-03-22, 08:12

No. Cero is bit different. GT is Ichigo feeding his reiatsu into his sword...a bit and then Zangetsu amplifies it. It's not like a Cero.

Ulq doesn't know anything. You shouldn't listen to him.

Agreed, I wonder if Ulq could stop a GT AND one of Ichigos Ceros at once?

I doubt it but it would be an extreme test of ulq and ichigos powers once and for all.

xxcara_miaxx

2009-03-23, 23:46

quick doubt......what's the true color of Ichigo's Mask stripes?

red or black?

in anime they are red.....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_b7QDtKml5fw/RkVaiylZJvI/AAAAAAAAABE/tAZSOcoeNfk/s1600/Hollow-Ichigo.jpg
in manga color spreads they are black

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1579/z23201.jpg

what's the true color?

I think Kubo originally drew them as black however as the anime caught up, the crew decided it wasn't dynamic/cool-looking enough and so changed it (most likely with his permission) and since, it has kinda stayed red.
Personally i'm with the red, it's a bit more like the hot-rod flames.... much sexier - and faster :heh:

Crystal Dreamer

2009-05-09, 01:03

But do you think getsutra teshu is form of cero of ichigo

doubtful as Ichigo has shown actual cero no although in both cases "Ichigi" was not in control because in the first case in was his inner hollow and the second time it is not clear who was in control as it did not appear to be Ichigo or his inner hollow

Gin

2009-05-10, 13:00

im too lazy to read the whole thread but is it possible that ichigo's hollowpowers are a result of the hogyokou (sp) being inside kuchiki rukia when she turned him into a shinigami?

tensashinigami

2009-05-10, 21:27

im too lazy to read the whole thread but is it possible that ichigo's hollowpowers are a result of the hogyokou (sp) being inside kuchiki rukia when she turned him into a shinigami?

It feels more the result of the training with Urahara whenever he reclaim his shinigami powers, Ichigo was already turning into a hollow but with resistance. That's a good question but only few people can answer that question which Urahara, Aizen and Mayuri.

I think it was Hichigo fighting Ulquiorra above the dome but with some conscious of being Ichigo. In a daze like state, but he was there. That's not a full Arrancar form either. How much stronger he was than Ulquiorra? In the bleach wiki, Arrancar to become humanoid form with broken some or most of the mask gone. It could had allowed him to get the power burst in the vaizard form. Its another step closer to his hollow.

Gin

2009-05-10, 23:44

It feels more the result of the training with Urahara whenever he reclaim his shinigami powers, Ichigo was already turning into a hollow but with resistance. That's a good question but only few people can answer that question which Urahara, Aizen and Mayuri.

the reason i think it may have something to do with the hogyokou is that ichigo's hollow powers seem to be alot stronger than the other vizards, most of which are captain class. and the arrancar that aizen created with the hogyokou are significantly stronger than the arrancar created with out the hogyokou

tensashinigami

2009-05-11, 06:24

Kafriel

2009-05-11, 06:59

Sabaku Kyu

2009-05-11, 07:19

Gin

2009-05-11, 16:25

The hougyoku was used on the vizards by Urahara, not to create them, but to try to return them to normal shinigami. It was unsuccessful in removing the hollow powers, but we don't what other affects it had.

:uhoh:im not sure that this is relevant to what i was saying, but im sure im just misunderstanding what you are trying to say:eyespin:

Chaos Zangetsu

2009-05-11, 20:38

the reason i think it may have something to do with the hogyokou is that ichigo's hollow powers seem to be alot stronger than the other vizards, most of which are captain class. and the arrancar that aizen created with the hogyokou are significantly stronger than the arrancar created with out the hogyokou
After Rukia had gone missing in the human world in the beginning of the series, SS couldn't detect her because of the gigai Urahara gave her. Rukia must've unknowingly had the Hongyoku implanted in her sometime after she tranferred her power to Ichigo because that would've been the only real time Urahara could get close to her because it was a convient way to hide the hongyoku so noone knows where it is and it would be hidden well whether she became human because of the gigai or if SS did retrieve her it wouldn't have been known still. Urahara probaly just thought making her human would be better to keep the Hongyoku safe from Aizen or anyone else alot more. Aizen himself explained this during the SS arc(though not word for word of course).
Because of this, there is a small chance that the Hongyoku had anything to do with Ichigo's hollow power.

I believe he got the hollow powers awakened after he almost turned into a hollow during Urahara's training. After they were awakened, as Ichigo got stronger, Hichigo got multitudes stronger as well, eventually on par with Ichigo's abilities and evetually surpassing Ichigo's power. That led to him challenging Ichigo for his body. That's also why when Ulquirrla(forget how to spell his name exactly) and Yammy were sent to Karakura town after Bount arc, Ulquirra felt Ichigo's reiatsu spiking when Ichigo was trying to stop Hichigo from taking over because Hichigo's power was making it through every so often as Ichigo was trying to contain him. Even when Ichigo defeated Hichigo when they were fighting over being "the king" and "the horse", Higchigo only backed down temporarily. I expect we'll see alot more conflict btween Ichigo and Hichigo as the series continues.

Gin

2009-05-11, 20:47

After Rukia had gone missing in the human world in the beginning of the series, SS couldn't detect her because of the gigai Urahara gave her. Rukia must've unknowingly had the Hongyoku implanted in her sometime after she tranferred her power to Ichigo because that would've been the only real time Urahara could get close to her because it was a convient way to hide the hongyoku so noone knows where it is and it would be hidden well whether she became human because of the gigai or if SS did retrieve her it wouldn't have been known still. Urahara probaly just thought making her human would be better to keep the Hongyoku safe from Aizen or anyone else alot more. Aizen himself explained this during the SS arc(though not word for word of course).
Because of this, there is a small chance that the Hongyoku had anything to do with Ichigo's hollow power.

I believe he got the hollow powers awakened after he almost turned into a hollow during Urahara's training. After they were awakened, as Ichigo got stronger, Hichigo got multitudes stronger as well, eventually on par with Ichigo's abilities and evetually surpassing Ichigo's power. That led to him challenging Ichigo for his body. That's also why when Ulquirrla(forget how to spell his name exactly) and Yammy were sent to Karakura town after Bount arc, Ulquirra felt Ichigo's reiatsu spiking when Ichigo was trying to stop Hichigo from taking over because Hichigo's power was making it through every so often as Ichigo was trying to contain him. Even when Ichigo defeated Hichigo when they were fighting over being "the king" and "the horse", Higchigo only backed down temporarily. I expect we'll see alot more conflict btween Ichigo and Hichigo as the series continues.
aizen said that rukia had the hogyoku hidden inside of her and that by the time he discovered this fact, rukia had already gone missing in the real world

Chaos Zangetsu

2009-05-11, 21:12

There is a bit of complications with aizen's statement:

When could the Hongyoku have been implanted in her and by whom, especially if Urahara and Tessai were already gone and Aizen had no clue of the Hongyoku's existance. This was not explained fully as of yet, so Aizen could've been lying. The only thing is Urahara knew the Hongyoku was inside Rukia possibly but he couldn't have had the time when he was still in SS to hide it in her before he escaped so who else knew about the Hongyoku? Maybe Mayuri could've found out somwhow and somehow got ahold of it and ....experimented.... The only question now is did Urahara leave it behind when he left SS?

Sabaku Kyu

2009-05-11, 23:30

:uhoh:im not sure that this is relevant to what i was saying, but im sure im just misunderstanding what you are trying to say:eyespin:

What I'm saying is that Ichigo isn't the only vizard who's had contact with the hougyoku. All the vizards have had the hougyoku's power used on them by Urahara, but we don't know exactly what it did, if anything.

Also, before the hougyoku was put inside Rukia its powers were sealed. The only way to activate it is for it to temporarily bond with someone who has twice the reiatsu of a shinigami captain. Whether Ichigo had that kind of power when absorbed Rukia's powers is iffy. His own shinigami powers hadn't been fully unlocked. But I guess it was possible

There is a bit of complications with aizen's statement:

When could the Hongyoku have been implanted in her and by whom, especially if Urahara and Tessai were already gone and Aizen had no clue of the Hongyoku's existance. This was not explained fully as of yet, so Aizen could've been lying. The only thing is Urahara knew the Hongyoku was inside Rukia possibly but he couldn't have had the time when he was still in SS to hide it in her before he escaped so who else knew about the Hongyoku? Maybe Mayuri could've found out somwhow and somehow got ahold of it and ....experimented.... The only question now is did Urahara leave it behind when he left SS?

Urahara stayed in SS for at least 20 hours after escaping Central 46 with Yourichi to prepare gigai for himself, Tessai and the vizards. He has a secret lair underneath Souyoku Hill so it wasn't like he had nowhere to hideout for some time. He was acting quickly, but he had enough time to hide the hougyoku in Rukia.

sakuraame

2009-05-12, 03:13

aizen said that rukia had the hogyoku hidden inside of her and that by the time he discovered this fact, rukia had already gone missing in the real world

There is a bit of complications with aizen's statement:

When could the Hongyoku have been implanted in her and by whom, especially if Urahara and Tessai were already gone and Aizen had no clue of the Hongyoku's existance. This was not explained fully as of yet, so Aizen could've been lying. The only thing is Urahara knew the Hongyoku was inside Rukia possibly but he couldn't have had the time when he was still in SS to hide it in her before he escaped so who else knew about the Hongyoku? Maybe Mayuri could've found out somwhow and somehow got ahold of it and ....experimented.... The only question now is did Urahara leave it behind when he left SS?

I interpreted Aizen's statement about him discovering the method to hide the Hougyoku and its connection to Rukia as reference to the moment that she disappeared off Soul Society's radar, after she got into Urahara's gigai that would sap all her shinigami powers. I thought that Urahara implanted the Hougyoku into her soul when he gave her the gigai. Aizen is just crazy good at connecting dots and figured out that when SS couldn't trace Rukia it was because of the gigai and the use of that special gigai meant that Urahara would be trying to hide the Hougyoku. At that point, we assume that Urahara and Rukia first met the night she lost her powers, so it would make sense that the Hougyoku was implanted then. If it was implanted at an earlier time, then it should have been explained when Aizen was talking about it, or else his story wouldn't make sense. I'm pretty confident that Urahara would not have left it behind in SS when he left. If the Hougyoku is as dangerous as he thought it was and Aizen was as smart as Urahara knew he was, Urahara probably wouldn't risk leaving the Hougyoku in SS in a 50 year old Rukia (who probably looked like a 5 year old) that couldn't defend herself. It's not impossible, but as logic for the treatment of a potentially dangerous substance, it seems unlikely. Honestly, part of me just feels like Kubo just didn't explain things very well there and it ends up being vague and somewhat confusing when Aizen's explanation is supposed to be such an eureka moment. You end up reading it 30 times and asking 30 other people what they think before coming to some sort of conclusion.

As for Ichigo's hollow powers, I'm curious to find out what exactly happened when Ichigo turned into a bad ass on Ulquiorra. He just kind of snaps out of it and it's never explained what was going on. We don't even really get Ichigo's feelings on what was going on as if he wasn't doing any sort of inner battle. He was acting like someone just woke him up as he was failing asleep in class.