View Full Version : Tousen's Motives?
I like many people was quite surprised about Tousen joining forces with Aizen. I was wondering if you guys have any theories on why Tousen joined Aizen. I think in the manga/anime Tousen said he was walking what he thought was the path of justice. Although Aizen's intentions are evil and he knows this, Tousen insists he's doing what he believes is the right thing to do. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
From this I do have a theory -
When Tousen and Kenpachi were fighting, Tousen talks about how Kenpachi fought and killed the previous 11th Captain and how it was disturbing towards him. In the flash backs of Tousen/Komomura you see Tousen standing infront of someone's grave. Maybe that grave belongs to the previous 11th Captain? Tousen might've been really close friends with him or her. In the Gotei 13 one of the ways to become a Captain is to defeat the previous one, in doing so they could legally kill that person if they're not too careful (Kenpachi careful? lol!). After Kenpachi killed his predecessor he couldn't be punished for it, it was prefectly legal. This might've enraged Tousen more even after witnessing (or hearing) his friend's death and for the justice of his or her death not carried out.
The fight between Kenpachi and Tousen showed that Tousen had reached his limits and was easily defeated by Kenpachi. I have a feeling Tousen knew he'd lose to Kenpachi even before the fight, it was just to show the viewers their difference in powers. Tousen needed some way to break his limits in order to carry out his "justice" against Kenpachi, enter Aizen. Tousen probably agreed in order to defeat Kenpachi. That's it in a nut shell :heh:
I want to hear some of your's xD (Sorry if this thread is cloned)
Kinny Riddle
2006-01-08, 01:14
Tousen reminds me of Anji from Rurouni Kenshin (the giant monk who got beaten by Sanosuke in the end). A kind hearted man who believes in justice, but gets disillusioned by the present state of affairs.
He decides to join forces with a potential destructor to destroy the present world and rebuild it all over into a more ideal world where good people need not suffer.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-08, 01:48
I like many people was quite surprised about Tousen joining forces with Aizen. I was wondering if you guys have any theories on why Tousen joined Aizen. I think in the manga/anime Tousen said he was walking what he thought was the path of justice. Although Aizen's intentions are evil and he knows this, Tousen insists he's doing what he believes is the right thing to do. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
From this I do have a theory -
When Tousen and Kenpachi were fighting, Tousen talks about how Kenpachi fought and killed the previous 11th Captain and how it was disturbing towards him. In the flash backs of Tousen/Komomura you see Tousen standing infront of someone's grave. Maybe that grave belongs to the previous 11th Captain? Tousen might've been really close friends with him or her. In the Gotei 13 one of the ways to become a Captain is to defeat the previous one, in doing so they could legally kill that person if they're not too careful (Kenpachi careful? lol!). After Kenpachi killed his predecessor he couldn't be punished for it, it was prefectly legal. This might've enraged Tousen more even after witnessing (or hearing) his friend's death and for the justice of his or her death not carried out.
The fight between Kenpachi and Tousen showed that Tousen had reached his limits and was easily defeated by Kenpachi. I have a feeling Tousen knew he'd lose to Kenpachi even before the fight, it was just to show the viewers their difference in powers. Tousen needed some way to break his limits in order to carry out his "justice" against Kenpachi, enter Aizen. Tousen probably agreed in order to defeat Kenpachi. That's it in a nut shell :heh:
I want to hear some of your's xD (Sorry if this thread is cloned)
that actually makes sense, i was wondering the same thing........Aizen, evil.....Tousen, good?...thats a pretty good theory though
Maybe Aizen promised Tousen something, something that is dear to Tousen, something like his dead friend/girlfriend. Who knows what else Aizen has been researching on.
Or maybe he just joined for the better dental plans, those Menos sure have big teeth.
striderm
2006-01-08, 04:18
It's all to pick up emo chicks.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-08, 04:57
What makes you think that Aizen is evil?
Because he tried to kill a few Shinigami? Ishida had the same motive in the beginning, and even Ichigo and his crew wanted to do the same thing for most of the Soul Society arc.
Just because the persons, Aizen fought agains are the main characters, it doesn't necessarily mean that his motives are evil.
he essentually wants to become "god", i would catagorize him under evil...but that s just my personal opinion, im not say ur wrong either thats just what i gathered from episode 62
Morisato
2006-01-08, 05:36
Tousen has no motives, he seeks the path with least bloodshed, simple as that and what better way to stop all the bloodshed than to have Aizen as the all powerful god of the new world. If Aizen manages to be god/a dictator, then there'll be no more shinigami war with the hollows, no one to defy Aizen, etc. And no war means no bloodshed.
Well, in most religions, "god" is good per definition... so someone who wants to become god also has to be good. ;)
Personally I think that "good" and "bad" doesn't exist. There are just different viewpoints. :)
The fact that they are view points of people makes the 2 exist.
The Crappinometer
2006-01-08, 06:40
if my memory serves me right, he mentioned that he was following the path of least bloodshed
Well, in most religions, "god" is good per definition... so someone who wants to become god also has to be good. ;)
Personally I think that "good" and "bad" doesn't exist. There are just different viewpoints. :)
Yep. Just like there will be pple who will support Raito frm the Death Note who is oso seen to be a God. I would tink that pple will hold diff perspective of wat is being 'good'. Sorry for the cross-over. ;)
Perhaps, in a way, Aizen will be a God if he stands true to wateva in his beliefs and the fact tt he has followers such as Gin n Tousen (at least). As for Tousen's motives, hmmm... maybe it is still early to say? Who knoes, there mite be another conspiracy behind that will throw us all out? Haha, now i wish for tt to happen... :D
astrallionheart
2006-01-08, 06:54
Although, that does seem to be a vague thing to be basing your choices on. I mean, how can choosing a "path" which leads to less bloodshed than the "current one" (if left untouched) be anything more than a crapshoot? (Uh...I "think" this might lead to less bloodshed...)
I mean, it's really a false assumption that you can control all kinds of variables (or, a poppycock plan that's based on nothing coming in your way, like, "I shall drive 40mph in Brasilia and, even though there are potholes everywhere from stolen manhole covers, nothing will befall me").
I think he's just a confused person. Pity for him.....
Well, in most religions, "god" is good per definition... so someone who wants to become god also has to be good. ;)
Fallacious. Whatever "God" is would become known as good, to his followers.
What makes you think that Aizen is evil?
did you like miss the episode where Aizen damn near killed Hinamori and Hitsugaya and him explaining his motives since when Hinamori, Kira and Renji were still in the academy? o_O
he used Hinamori because she idolized him which made her VERY EASY to manipulate, and when he had no more use for her, pretty damn near killed her. Both Hinamori and Hitsugaya would have died if it wasn't for the 4th Captain *her name escapes me right now*
c'mon now, where in that does not warrant a evil genius mastermind? O.o
Well, in most religions, "god" is good per definition... so someone who wants to become god also has to be good. ;)
Personally I think that "good" and "bad" doesn't exist. There are just different viewpoints. :)
either you're joking...or you need a reality check
shadowsoul
2006-01-09, 08:52
Aizen: Let There Be LIGHT!
Tousen: Aizen I can see the light! :heh:
Or he was just fed up with the current democratic system and wanted to try communism.:eyespin:
BrokenWingz
2006-01-09, 10:00
Being god means having power>justice
on the whole of is Aizen evil or not doesnt the fact that he "didnt" kill them off even with his accurate guess tell you something(that he didnt want them to die(yet?) )
Friendless
2006-01-09, 19:51
" Good " and " Evil " are nothing but simple perspectives... To Tousen he's doing good and so is Aizen, to Aizen his doing good. However to Ichigo, Aizen is probley doing ' evil ' as to Aizen, Ichigo is doing ' evil '.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=god
Definition of ' god '.
Same as 'GOD', it has a perspective in most peoples mind to be GOOD or EVIL. Most people pertray 'GOD' as already good (Primarly the cathlics and other incompetent religions in my opinion, ' no offense') however 'GOD' is also subjective to perspective on how it's GOOD or EVIL. Not to mention this word of 'GOD' came from a translation in japan, so their could be a more clearful meaning to the word in japan rather than in america, havn't looked into it.
I'll have to look at it again cause I didn't pay much attention but I was thinking that Tousen joined Aizen for he wanted to help end the meaningless cycle that just causes continuous death and pain.
Inkognito
2006-01-09, 21:06
As I recall he said something along the lines of "These eyes only see the path with the least blood." To me, that signifies that he may be joining forces with Aizen to try to speed along the process with as little bloodshed as possible. That, of course, would also suggest that Tousen see's Aizen as the eventual victor and that by working together and becoming more powerful, Tousen will be able to see justice done.
I'm not sure if all of that makes sense, but maybe Tousen wishes to try to bring order and justice and thinks the ends will justify the means.
SuperKnuckles
2006-01-09, 22:24
I sorta sympathize with Tousen. He's leaving one thuggish organization for another thuggish organization. I bet he just wanted a better office space.
Idk from Tousen's character I got the sense that he is more of a follower. Aizen made a big impression on him when he was in the 5th squard and so he just follow Aizen ever since. Tousen's motive (his justice and such explanation) will be a subplot of the story but IMO won't ulter story in any way shape or form. In the end I think that Tousen will realize the faultiness of his path and lament (before he dies)....seem very animezie.
IMO Tousen will prove to be "blind" to the very end.
Gin on the other hand...he seems to have a hidden motive.
Friendless
2006-01-10, 00:12
IMO Tousen will prove to be "blind" to the very end.
IMO I believe Tousen is choosing the right path.
Idk from Tousen's character I got the sense that he is more of a follower. Aizen made a big impression on him when he was in the 5th squard and so he just follow Aizen ever since. Tousen's motive (his justice and such explanation) will be a subplot of the story but IMO won't ulter story in any way shape or form. In the end I think that Tousen will realize the faultiness of his path and lament (before he dies)....seem very animezie.
IMO Tousen will prove to be "blind" to the very end.
Gin on the other hand...he seems to have a hidden motive.
Yeah, i say Tousen replaced the empty space thats occupied his heart with Aizen, when his friend died. Also he might be gay.
I sure like to see his death scene with Komamura. Tousen, who realised that his faulty path only lead to more bloodshed, appologies to Komamura but still attack foxhead since his shame only leave him one final option: death.
The two fighting it out and in the end Tousen die, while Komamura whispers: 'Tousen...' in a melodramatic kind of way.
What makes you think that Aizen is evil?
Because he tried to kill a few Shinigami? Ishida had the same motive in the beginning, and even Ichigo and his crew wanted to do the same thing for most of the Soul Society arc.
Just because the persons, Aizen fought agains are the main characters, it doesn't necessarily mean that his motives are evil. I'm never sure when you are kidding and when you are serious at what you say. No really, why wouldn't everyone think Aizen is evil? He just didn't kill a few shinigami there but he killed a loads of people to make his grand plan to fruitation. One such example would be the slaughter of all those people in the Central Command. He even stabbed Hinamori! I mean come on, that's Hinamori we are talking about, probably the sweetest personality portrayed in Bleach. That's evil!
His ultimate intention is what we don't know about even though we have a vague idea about him wanting to get really strong for what ever reason. What's make him, or rather his act, evil is how ruthlessly he carried out his plan on his quest to become stronger. He simply crushed everyone in his path with no room for compassion. Once again, the hawt bastard ( :heh: ) stabbed Hinamori! Even a god would be considered evil if it stabbed Hinamori and Aizen isn't even a god yet. :p :heh:
Yeah, i say Tousen replaced the empty space thats occupied his heart with Aizen, when his friend died. Also he might be gay.
I sure like to see his death scene with Komamura. Tousen, who realised that his faulty path only lead to more bloodshed, appologies to Komamura but still attack foxhead since his shame only leave him one final option: death.
The two fighting it out and in the end Tousen die, while Komamura whispers: 'Tousen...' in a melodramatic kind of way.
I like this part :D
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-01-10, 16:35
IMO I believe Tousen is choosing the right path.
im not trying to be rude to you, but how do you think that the path that Tousen has chosen is right? How can he justify what Aizen's actions have caused in SS?
I just dont have a clear answer as to why he would be right to go alongside Aizen, other then him be a loyal friend to him.
Yeah, but Ichigo want to crush only the people who are in his way to save the one he love(or not). And not really intended to crush them but since they came at him anyway, he just beats the light out of them and mess them up so hard without letting them die (which does sound very cruel).
Aizen wants to destroy everybody to become God on his own. He just want to become the most powerfull, damn the rest.
To me, anyone would say Aizen is more evil or at least more selfish then Ichigo, even if the story was told from Aizen's point of view. Being selfish, deceiving people, arent really good qualities.
Friendless
2006-01-11, 04:09
Yeah, but Ichigo want to crush only the people who are in his way to save the one he love(or not). And not really intended to crush them but since they came at him anyway, he just beats the light out of them and mess them up so hard without letting them die (which does sound very cruel).
Aizen wants to destroy everybody to become God on his own. He just want to become the most powerfull, damn the rest.
To me, anyone would say Aizen is more evil or at least more selfish then Ichigo, even if the story was told from Aizen's point of view. Being selfish, deceiving people, arent really good qualities.
Are you saying saving ICHIGO's 'special person' or ' boo (in v2 of dattebayo) are not HIS wants HIS needs... Ichigo destroying peoples hopes, dreams, their own ambitions is not for his own selfish desire but for the good of the majority?
I believe Aizen is not just wanting POWER for himself, but to change the future for everyone. In order to lead people, change the future, change the rules, change logic,destiny and so forth you need POWER. I believe Aizen is looking more for his thoughts of what the ' GOOD ' of the universe needs rather them himself...
The currently loop of humanity is just an endless battle of constant WAR, BATTLE, PAIN, and SUFFERING... Is Aizen and Tousen not justified for their right to try and change this?
Thats right, im saying Ichigo is less selfish then Aizen because hes willing to sacrifice himself for the one he loved(or not). Hes thinking beyond himself, while Aizen only think about being the ultimate.
Seriously, i doubt Aizen is thinking about the universe needs rather then himself as you put it, he reached the limit of his powers and wants more, thats why he did what he did.
Even if you assume that he might want to change the current situation, he still wants himself to change it, no one else, because he wouldnt want anyone to be more powerfull then him, thats selfish.
Sure there is a loop, Aizen's way is also part of that loop. One side always want to eliminate the otherside completely.
In one situation you have Aizen killing off SS and and make himself god over both worlds, peace. The other possible situation is SS killing off all Hollows, also peace. Where's the difference? The difference is, that Aizen wants the throne, like i said selfish.
Friendless
2006-01-11, 04:40
If im right SS, doesn't ' kill off hollows ' and supports the balance, for if the balance is broken, existence is supposly no-more...
I find Ichigo to be just as selfish as Aizen... but that's what opinions are for.
As for Aizen wanting the SUPREME POWER to himself... Say you were in his position...
You want to make the world right in your opinion to be better. So work extent to get to it. Some random guy walks up and is like, " Yo man... I totally want to like... make the world... all groovy and stuff too mannnn. " Would you hand him supreme power cause you don't want to be SELFISH even though you don't know his TRUE intentions... NO! You wouldn't, only you believe you know the way to help the world.
I don't think that's selfish... I believe it's 'smart'.
Also... for all you know Aizen is going to share this ability to become half-hollow to Tousen and Gin...
You might be right, maybe SS only wants to support the balance.
And for Aizen wanting power for himself, i never said it wasnt smart, but it is very selfish since Aizen wants the throne and no one else, sure he might let Tousen or Gin in, but hes the one who rule not them, and i doubt he would tolerate them to become more powerfull then himself, since three Gods wont fit on one throne. Changing the world is nice and all, but if you say my way or the highway, that sounds quite selfish to me.
Also for all you know he doesnt share anything at all.
The same applies to Aizen.
With the exeption of Hinamori (who he only "killed" out of mercy), he only fought against people, who were standing in his way.
Okay, his order to kill Rukia doesn't make much sense, but it could be that as the "keeper" of the Hougyoku she may be a threat to him in the future.
So both were just following their own paths, crushing the people who were in the way.
I dont see how Rukia would be a threat now, since she has lost her purpose of being a low-profile "container" for Hougyoku.
And if its to silence her from revealing the existance of it, then Ichigo and Renji should have been targeted as well.
I'll just vote the decision of killing Rukia as an act of "pure villian-ness at work".:heh:
Baphomet
2006-01-11, 07:40
With Aizen on the throne,
He can take things into his own hands and interfere with human affairs, probably assasinating warlords and ending wars prematurely.
That is the path with least bloodshed. Maybe Aizen and his two minions are not so evil after all, sacrificing a few for a greater good.
The same applies to Aizen.
With the exeption of Hinamori (who he only "killed" out of mercy), he only fought against people, who were standing in his way.
Okay, his order to kill Rukia doesn't make much sense, but it could be that as the "keeper" of the Hougyoku she may be a threat to him in the future.
So both were just following their own paths, crushing the people who were in the way.
Sure, but anyone can see that Aizen's goal is more evil, Ichigo is doing it for love(or not), while Aizen is after personal gain. Ichigo dont seek power for the sake of power, he seek power to save people.
And theres also the fact that Aizen kill off all the people who he thought they might pose a threat to him while Ichigo only crush those who came at him, theres a difference about self-defense when someone came at you with a sword and pre-emptive killing.
lol so I guess there is no evil in the world...just perspective???
Aizen is selfish..of course he is. No need for Hinamori? Kill her. No need for Rukia? Kill her. There is no purpose for wanting Rukia to die except for personal satisfaction. Or perhaps we don't know the "real story right? Maybe Rukia is the only person that can destroy the Hougyoku and Aizen knew that...right?
But ya I understand what you mean its not simple to discribe "evil". Somebody's terrarist is somebody else freedom fighter.
Hitler...some may say his vision what he wants is "good"....but to the rest of the world not so good.
Perhaps Aizen has a greater purpose? He wants to become god so he can save the world???? Some sacrifies are needed????.... now that's deep.
Sometime a rock is just a rock....I know hard to believe huh?
Sometime a rock is just a rock....I know hard to believe huh?
Well...majority of the AF member (who aren't purely fanboy/girls) like to think that everything is deeper than it seems (and this is not a bad thing).
But I admit it can be carried away too far sometimes...and the arguement that "he might not really be evil" can be really, really old sometimes.:uhoh:
Plus the fact that Aizen's objestive seem to be power-hungry than for-the-good-of-all-souls gives me the impression he really IS evil. Of course, its my perspective.
Before I reply to TheSmallOne, everyone should have an idea of what they themselves would consider evil or at least have thought about it. If you are too young to consider what is evil, then go ahead and ask your mom or dead of what they consider evil. Make sure they are not fighting because otherwise they will only be pointing finger at each other which will only add to your confusion. :heh:
I'm always serious, I just like to provoke a bit to make the people think about what they are saying.
Well, maybe I also joke from time to time. ;)
Well, that's your point of view... :)
But we don't really know this much about Hinamori... maybe she is even more "evil" than Aizen.
Besides it's nothing unusual to crush everyone that stands in the way... just look at Ichigo after he entered the Shinigami city.
If the story were told from Aizen's point of view, everyone would consider Ichigo the bad guy, therefore it only depends on the viewpoint.
:D :heh:
You see, that's why I'm not sure when you are joking or not. At this point, I am extremely curious to know what do you consider evil. The examples or references doesn't have to come from Bleach either.
Clearly there is a huge difference between Aizen and Ichigo at how they conduct themselves to achieve their respective goal.
Aizen kills people. Ichigo's killing only extended to "purifying" hollows.
Aizen killed a loads of people in SS. Ichigo has not killed a single person. Aizen killed anyone to oppose him. Ichigo's opposition who were bent on destroying him turned into his allies after they fought, i.e. Ikkaku, Renji, :bow: Kenpachi :bow:, Byakuya and so on.
So when Aizen crushes people, he has more than likely killed them. When Ichigo "crushes" the people he fights, he actually "crushed" their old perspective on things and has given them a new way of looking, of course the only exception's being Kenpachi. Kenpachi was simply looking for a good time. :heh:
Ichigo-Aizen isn't a valid comparison. You need to think it over and give us something new to work with. :p
Do you have any proof, that Aizen isn't doing it for the sake of the people?
Just simple deduction, in all his talk he never mentioned the people, but he sure remembered to mention himself. Unless a savior is extremely giving and caring, he wouldnt left out the fact that he is doing it for them, or use them as a justification for his actions. And since Aizen seems to be very selfish, the fact that he left it out would be more then enought prove.
WHO? Who did Aizen "kill" (we have to consider, that nobody really died, however I still like to use the word kill here), who wasn't coming at him.
Okay, at first he killed Hinamori, but it was already said, that he did it out of compasion.
The next one was Hitsugaya... and he was clearly attacking Aizen. It was just self-defense.
Then there was Unohana... she wasn't attacking him, so he did nothing to her.
Next was Renji and Ichigo: They both started to attack Aizen and he just defended.
Same goes for Komamura.
The next thing is Rukia... like I already wrote: It might be possible, that she can still be a thread to him, since she was the container of the Hougyoku... who knows if there might have been some sort of interaction between those two.
You left out the fact that Aizen killed everyone within Office 46, and since they are lying there for sometime untill discovery, i would say they are pretty dead.
And the difference is, those killings werent needed, sure they could have gave out orders for his apprehention, but if he wasnt really evil he would avoid killing unless its absolutely nescessarily.
Ichigo only fight those who came at him face on, he doesnt kill off people who might pose a threat to him in the future, for instance thats why he left the dude from 4th division to tag along.
So I say it again: Aizen and Ichigo basically do the same things: They follow their own path (which in both cases goes against the rules of Soul Society) and crush those who stand in their way.
The only difference is, that Aizen thinks ahead more than Ichigo does and that we know more about Ichigo's reasonings, because he is the main character.
Its about respect for life, if you can avoid killing, you would do so if unless you have no other choice. Ichigo would never kill someone who cant defend himself, even if he knew the person would fight him again in the future, because hes thinking beyond himself. While Aizen is thinking ahead, but only about himself.
NoSanninWa
2006-01-11, 17:44
I'm always serious, I just like to provoke a bit to make the people think about what they are saying.
Well, maybe I also joke from time to time. ;)That's a trap. If you don't like the results of an argument, then you were only joking and they were lame to be provoked? Definiton of a troll: Someone who states opinions that he doesn't believe in so that other people will argue with him.
Anytime you write something in a forum it should be your actual opinion or else I'd have to consider you a troll. If you don't believe in what you're writing, you'd best make it clear.
Baphomet
2006-01-12, 11:07
Let me present a scenario here that possibly explains the killings done by Aizen:
When people's houses are invaded by pests such as termites or their gardens by caterpillars, most will opt to destroy/exterminate these pests.
Heck, even when we walk across the road, we might step on a few ants.
Maybe Aizen just view other shinigamis as nothing more than pests, just equivalent to tiny insects that died while standing in his way. :p
Let me present a scenario here that possibly explains the killings done by Aizen:
When people's houses are invaded by pests such as termites or their gardens by caterpillars, most will opt to destroy/exterminate these pests.
Heck, even when we walk across the road, we might step on a few ants.
Maybe Aizen just view other shinigamis as nothing more than pests, just equivalent to tiny insects that died while standing in his way. :p
Now we have a new desciption for Aizen: proud SOB.:heh:
Anyone saw the movie American Psycho where Chritian Bale (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000288/) describes like a narrator as he acts out the part of Patrick Batemen as to how he starts his day, how he does his facial caring, how he brushes his hair, and then he goes on to kill about 20 people through out the movie? Well if the Bleach is told from Aizen's perspective then I am afraid his story won't be too far off in resemblance of what was shown in the American Psycho. :heh:
Friendless
2006-01-12, 17:17
Some of you say to kill someone is to make you evil. That's not true.
As for there being no information that he would be doing it for the people: Why would tousen join him otherwise?
Also, if Aizens true goals are to 'help' humanity and end the million year-so cycle of endless slaughter, pain, and agony: What would a few lifes matter? We're talking about a million so plus years of a loop that brings nothing but death, and pain anyway... In order to change this the whole loop and EVERYTHING must be changed...
probably assasinating warlords and ending wars prematurely.
That is the path with least bloodshed. Maybe Aizen and his two minions are not so evil after all, sacrificing a few for a greater good.
IMO that wouldn't stop what his trying to fix though... his not trying to stop a few 'real world' wars and so on, his trying to CHANGE the flow of existence.
" Good " and " Evil " are nothing but simple perspectives... To Tousen he's doing good and so is Aizen, to Aizen his doing good. However to Ichigo, Aizen is probley doing ' evil ' as to Aizen, Ichigo is doing ' evil '.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=god
Definition of ' god '.
Same as 'GOD', it has a perspective in most peoples mind to be GOOD or EVIL. Most people pertray 'GOD' as already good (Primarly the cathlics and other incompetent religions in my opinion, ' no offense') however 'GOD' is also subjective to perspective on how it's GOOD or EVIL. Not to mention this word of 'GOD' came from a translation in japan, so their could be a more clearful meaning to the word in japan rather than in america, havn't looked into it.
I'll have to look at it again cause I didn't pay much attention but I was thinking that Tousen joined Aizen for he wanted to help end the meaningless cycle that just causes continuous death and pain.
Couldn't agree more. Put simply it's the Euphyphro Dilemma:
Is it good because God wills it
Or does God will it because it is good?
NoSanninWa
2006-01-12, 19:19
Couldn't agree more. Put simply it's the Euphyphro Dilemma:
Is it good because God wills it
Or does God will it because it is good?
Do you really believe that just because Aizen says that he wants to be god, that he's actually going to become the omnipotent being that created the heavens and the earth?
I, personally, find it much more plausible that he is merely a megalomaniac who WANTS to be God, but is really just going to become such a dangerous super-powerful being that nobody will dare to say that he is not God. Or perhaps he merely wants to be god, with a small 'g,' in the sense that he will rule heaven and earth.
Also, if Aizens true goals are to 'help' humanity and end the million year-so cycle of endless slaughter, pain, and agony: What would a few lifes matter? We're talking about a million so plus years of a loop that brings nothing but death, and pain anyway... In order to change this the whole loop and EVERYTHING must be changed...
As far as Aizen's true goals being so noble, I find it hard to believe. Sure, that would be worth some sacrifice, but he just doesn't seem that sort. I could imagine Tousen feeling that way, but I think Aizen just wants all the apples to belong to himself.
lemondude
2006-01-12, 19:22
I thought this is tousen's motive not Aizen's motive.
I thought this is tousen's motive not Aizen's motive.
We all know how Aizen likes to hijack Tousen' thread.:heh:
And I believe someone said he killed "a few" people to reach his "noble goal"?
Sorry, the entire central room 46 was slaughtered, and thats about 20-30 "noble people" killed. Sure isnt just "a few" to me.
NoSanninWa
2006-01-13, 01:22
I thought this is tousen's motive not Aizen's motive.
It seems impossible to discuss Tousen's motives without speculating on Aizen's motives since Tousen has decided to follow Aizen.
Either Tousen is planning to trick Aizen or serve him. Either way, Aizen is important.
I thought this is tousen's motive not Aizen's motive.
More Tousen please! o.o Aizen has enough threads and enough information about his agendas as it is. Tousen on the other hand!
I like most of the theories so far. Mentioned before about how Tousen wants the path with the least bloodshed. If Tousen knows Aizen is looking to gain more power, then he must know people with power will want to use it? Someone who buys a gun will surly test it out on a firing range, but do you think Aizen would test his powers in open fields with no one around? Aizen could've beaten Komamaru easily with his sword but instead he did a spell, Gin who probably knows Aizen the best didn't know he could do a spell like that. Aizen was probably just testing it out. (Silly Aizen has to be mentioned xD)
NoSanninWa
2006-01-13, 01:57
Mentioned before about how Tousen wants the path with the least bloodshed.
Perhaps Tousen simply believes that if Aizen rules the world with absolute power as a despot, there won't be any more war. How can there be a war when Aizen can simply destroy anyone so foolish with his invincible power.
Absolute despotism can create a world with little conflict. That would be the path with the least bloodshed.
I don't see Aizen being any different from any other anime that had a guy that said something like "this is for the good of the world" and pretty much always be evil in a sense, then the good guy would smack some sense into him.
Ichigo doesn't "crush" everyone in his path, just saying shows your stupidity, he fought whoever attacked him.
Aizen slaughtered Room 46 when he had no more use for them...
Hitsugaya only attacked Aizen because he (from Hitsugaya's view) killed Hinamori. Now...lets take this to real life, if you found out some guy you knew for a long time, (much less a stranger) killed someone you cared about, would you not attack them?
Also, when Aizen and Ichimaru appeared...I think behind Renji, of course Renji refused to leave Rukia behind, Aizen drew his sword, Renji jumped back and still got sliced, making Aizen attacking Renji FIRST, then Ichigo came in and saved Renji (temporarily anyways) Now...what did you expect Renji and Ichigo were gonna do? I'm pretty damn sure they wouldn't have sat down and had a cup a tea.
topic about Tousen's motive suddenly became a topic on If AIZEN is EVIL OR RIGHTEOUS....
back to topic to clearify something someone posted earlier about Tousen's motive... Aizen when talking to 4th squad captain, Aizen clearly said Gin and Tousen was with him FROM THE START so that kinda cancels out Tousen joining Aizen all of sudden just to be stronger then Kenpachi or anything that could have happened inbetween... Tousen told the beast he joined Shinigami for his dead friend but later ignored the beast and said he joined for real justice whatever that is... guess we have 2 wait like another year till the story tell us why Tousen joined Aizen
and to majority of ppl debating if Aizen is evil or not... dude he is evil its common sense.... he works with hollows or they work for him vice a versa and hollows kill/eat human souls good or bad so how could Aizen be good? Using hollows who kill human souls just to gain power?? doesn't sound to good to me...
Some of you say to kill someone is to make you evil. That's not true.
Also, if Aizens true goals are to 'help' humanity and end the million year-so cycle of endless slaughter, pain, and agony: What would a few lifes matter? We're talking about a million so plus years of a loop that brings nothing but death, and pain anyway... In order to change this the whole loop and EVERYTHING must be changed...
That is just weird, sure you can have a situation where you can justify your killing, but you did kill someone. Any normal person would wish it wasnt so, but Aizen woudnt care whether he killed one or two people.
What would a few lifes matter?
I would say it matters alot. Lets say someone tell you, your mother has to die right now, in order to save a 1000 other mothers, would you do it?
Its all about perspective, but if you are good, you would see the others perspective too, not just your own, and minimize the killing as much as possible.
And where does a 'few lifes' end? If you start believing its for a greater good to save billions of people, a million would be consider a few, or maybe two million? Or how about a 100 million. If you really care about the people's lifes, you cant think like that, every life is precious and worth saving, otherwise why are you doing it?
Im sure Tousen believes that hes doing this for some greater purpose so that there will be less bloodshed, but I doubt Tousen believes that Aizen is a good person, more like he follow the evil man too reach a goal.
Or who can say if Tousen isnt doing this so he can have more power and change the world himself. Maybe he's just using Aizen to get the same power, then do it his way.
also, just because Tousen is taking the pass that will lead to less bloodshed doesn't necessarily make him evil, nor necessarily makes him bad, it's kinda hard to point out right now. Tousen wants peace, even if it requires to follow a really evil genius mastermind who will manipulate the world from a basically unreachable zone, then so be it. Aizen will be the all mighty smiter that eliminates the Trial and Error factor from humanity, so what it seems is that he will make people fear what will happen instead of learning from past mistakes.
Inkognito
2006-01-13, 08:00
Perhaps Tousen simply believes that if Aizen rules the world with absolute power as a despot, there won't be any more war. How can there be a war when Aizen can simply destroy anyone so foolish with his invincible power.
Absolute despotism can create a world with little conflict. That would be the path with the least bloodshed.
Hit the nail on the head imo. There's really not much else I can think of as Tousen's motive. If he said "these eyes only see the path with the least bloodshed", it seems obvious to me that this is why he's doing it.
GundamZZ
2006-01-24, 20:29
Back to discussion on Tousen. Tousen joined shinigami after he heard the death of his "special friend". Before that, he showed no interst to become a shinigami. His "friend" was his first love. He was shy to confess his love because his condition. After hearing his friend joined shinigami and got married, Tousen felt sad. He blessed her happiness anyway. Then, he heard the death of his friend. There was dual among shinigami. Her husband was responsible for killing a vice captain. She felt it's unjust and had aruged with her husband. Her husband ended up killing her. There was no punishment put on that man. Tousen was probably get mad at that man first. Then, he might feel mad at entire shinigami system. That incident may have something to do with Kenpachi, since Tousen mentioned third way to become captain before Kenpachi. Tousen joined shinigami becasue he wanted change. Maybe there will be more story about him in the future. It may be something beyond just revenge.
arvineFei
2006-01-27, 13:16
Tousen joined shinigami after he heard the death of his "special friend". Before that, he showed no interst to become a shinigami. His "friend" was his first love. He was shy to confess his love because his condition. After hearing his friend joined shinigami and got married, Tousen felt sad. He blessed her happiness anyway. Then, he heard the death of his friend. There was dual among shinigami. Her husband was responsible for killing a vice captain. She felt it's unjust and had aruged with her husband. Her husband ended up killing her. There was no punishment put on that man.
Huh? was this in the manga? Cause I dont remember watching this part in the anime, or did i miss it? (I'm quite sure I didn't but which ep if I did?)
IMHO, Tousen follows Aizen because he is confused bout things and because he is BLIND, literally. Anyway, we'll find it out later I'm sure.
Huh? was this in the manga? Cause I dont remember watching this part in the anime, or did i miss it? (I'm quite sure I didn't but which ep if I did?)I remember at least a partial reference to this stuff in the anime
IMHO, Tousen follows Aizen because he is confused bout things and because he is BLIND, literally. Anyway, we'll find it out later I'm sure.
Wha? What does Tousen being blind have to do with why he is following Aizen? Gin isn't blind... The only effect Tousen being blind has is that he is immune to Aizen's Shikai. The real reason Tousen is following Aizen is because he thinks that Aizen's plan will lead to the least number of deaths. He's clearly off his head, though, because the whole of the 46th chamber (or whatever number) have already been killed.
NoSanninWa
2006-01-27, 15:51
Tousen joined shinigami after he heard the death of his "special friend". Before that, he showed no interst to become a shinigami. His "friend" was his first love. He was shy to confess his love because his condition. After hearing his friend joined shinigami and got married, Tousen felt sad. He blessed her happiness anyway. Then, he heard the death of his friend. There was dual among shinigami. Her husband was responsible for killing a vice captain. She felt it's unjust and had aruged with her husband. Her husband ended up killing her. There was no punishment put on that man. Huh? was this in the manga? Cause I dont remember watching this part in the anime, or did i miss it? (I'm quite sure I didn't but which ep if I did?)
This was briefly flashed back in the anime. It wasn't clearly explained whose grave Tousen was standing over when he made his oath to fight For Great Justice. The information about it being his first love was only in the manga.
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