View Full Version : [Mai Otome] Episode 14 Discussion/Poll
I have to say, Arika's thoughtless comment may have fanned the flames against her as far as Tomoe is concerned. If Miya had ANY doubts, guilty feelings, whatever after what happened during the hike, they're gone now making her very pliable for Tomoe. She didn't have to do or say a thing to Miya this time to get her to do something to Arika. Miya probably wanted revenge for Arika's seeming callousness. Granted, Arika simply does not really understand politics and is too wrapped up in these ridiculous feelings to get a grip as to what is going on around her. But she really needs to start getting a filter for her mouth. I'm severly disappointed in her this ep.
The more I look at Mashiro's lethargy and Arika's lethargy the more I think this bond between them runs deeper than their contract would suggest. Someone posted a twin theory and I'd have to admit, that would make sense. Twins tend to share a lot of things from mood to taste in clothing. Mashiro is probably upset about Takumi and Arika is feeling the effects, which totally confuses this issue surrounding them.
For them to be twins will be 1 in a million chance....Thier physical and appearance looks entirely different. Mood doesn't determine anything....cuz everybody at some point share the same mood at times.
Anh_Minh
2006-01-14, 10:39
I would't agree more with you. Mashiro castle looks like a living area instead of a fortress. However with such a technology...why would Mashiro bother having a defensive castle....And Garderobe is so near to her castle...if a war does break out...all the pillars and otomes (Pearl class) will come to Mashiro's aid almost immediately.
Maybe not. There's a treaty of some kind of treaty forbidding the Otome of Garderobe to use their robes in Windbloom - except in special circumstances. That's why Nina got in trouble in the first episodes. Also, where were they 14 years ago when the princess disappeared?
For them to be twins will be 1 in a million chance....Thier physical and appearance looks entirely different.
Actually that's not true. They don't need to be identical twins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin#Identical_twin) in order to be twins. They could be fraternal twins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin#Fraternal_twins). You'll note that fraternal twins may not share physical characteristics but are twins nonetheless.
Identical twins share Mood doesn't determine anything....cuz everybody at some point share the same mood at times.
Twinship determines a great deal. Overall, people do not share moods unless they are involved in some common event or relationship. People don't share moods per se, but they may share certain feelings about an event, weather or situation. No one else around either of them feel the same mood or feelings right now. So the logic you're using is false. Many twin studies show how twins of both sorts are affected by each other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study)
Actually that's not true. They don't need to be identical twins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin#Identical_twin) in order to be twins. They could be fraternal twins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin#Fraternal_twins). You'll note that fraternal twins may not share physical characteristics but are twins nonetheless.
Twinship determines a great deal. Overall, people do not share moods unless they are involved in some common event or relationship. People don't share moods per se, but they may share certain feelings about an event, weather or situation. No one else around either of them feel the same mood or feelings right now. So the logic you're using is false. Many twin studies show how twins of both sorts are affected by each other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study)
Don't trust wikipedia too much..they tend to give many misleading info. And I do know about fraternal twins. However there was indication that suggest Mashiro isn't Arika twin nor sister. It might be true that twins do share feeling but this isn't incommon among friends or closely related people.
Maybe not. There's a treaty of some kind of treaty forbidding the Otome of Garderobe to use their robes in Windbloom - except in special circumstances. That's why Nina got in trouble in the first episodes. Also, where were they 14 years ago when the princess disappeared?
They will not do the same mistake 2 times...If a war does break out, they will immediately assist Windbloom in defence. That happened 14 years ago and rules are subject to change cuz Mashiro is the queen. She would be the last queen in the royal line in Windbloom until she can have a family of her own. They would do anything at all cost to keep the queen save. Atleast this is what I think they might do. Doesn't mean I am right about it.
Don't trust wikipedia too much..they tend to give many misleading info. And I do know about fraternal twins. However there was indication that suggest Mashiro isn't Arika twin nor sister. It might be true that twins do share feeling but this isn't incommon among friends or closely related people.
I only gave Wikipedia as an easy way for you and others to understand. If you want harder scientific evidence to disprove your assertion, feel free to PM me. We don't need to waste time or space here. The feelings that Arika and Mashiro are experiencing are very uncommon to be felt among friends or even closely related people. Unless you have scientific proof otherwise, your statement lacks support or merit.
I only gave Wikipedia as an easy way for you and others to understand. If you want harder scientific evidence to disprove your assertion, feel free to PM me. We don't need to waste time or space here. The feelings that Arika and Mashiro are experiencing are very uncommon to be felt among friends or even closely related people. Unless you have scientific proof otherwise, your statement lacks support or merit.
So is yours..........this is not real world only an anime...and in anime anything can happen. There is no need for us to apply science in it. As you have said before...there is no need to discuss this matter cuz we will not come to a conclusion.
So is yours..........this is not real world only an anime...and in anime anything can happen. There is no need for us to apply science in it. As you have said before...there is no need to discuss this matter cuz we will not come to a conclusion.
That has yet to be determined. You've not given me any proof to disprove my theory...and thus a conclusion has not been reached. If you are unwilling to have your theory disproven, then don't expect someone to not challenge your random, incorrect statements. Although this IS only an anime, writers often insert real world premises, concepts and facts into them. Just saying "You're wrong...no YOU'RE wrong." sounds childlike without supporting evidence. It's just supposition and opinion. Thus, we can discuss them. So...if you really want to discuss and learn something, PM me. But your statement is false and positing it as fact is also false.
That has yet to be determined. You've not given me any proof to disprove my theory...and thus a conclusion has not been reached. If you are unwilling to have your theory disproven, then don't expect someone to not challenge your random, incorrect statements. Although this IS only an anime, writers often insert real world premises, concepts and facts into them. Just saying "You're wrong...no YOU'RE wrong." sounds childlike without supporting evidence. It's just supposition and opinion. Thus, we can discuss them. So...if you really want to discuss and learn something, PM me. But your statement is false and positing it as fact is also false.
Nah, why waste time to try to prove something and to someone who doesn't believe...anyway forum is to debate..i don't see it is wrong to debate in forum.
I never say I was right from the start only some indication from other thread if you did read correctly from the start before posting. Also I never say "YOU ARE WRONG"...but only disagree with you.:heh:
Nah, why waste time to try to prove something and to someone who doesn't believe
I don't believe because you've not given any proof to support. Why believe something that is unproven? :eyebrow: That would make me stupid to take someone's word at face value with no evidence to back it up. Provide evidence, then we can talk. If you feel you are "wasting your time", I'd find that the person's argument was weak to start with.
You say you know about fraternal twins yet make the incorrect statement:
For them to be twins will be 1 in a million chance....Thier physical and appearance looks entirely different.
If you indeed knew about fraternal twins, you would know that this statement is completely false, as this definition shows:
(http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraternal+twins
fraternal twins
pl.n.
Twins that derive from separately fertilized ova and that have different genetic makeup. They may be of the same or opposite sex.
http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a/twinzygosity.htm
Fraternal -- or dizygotic (two zygotes) -- twins develop when two separate eggs are fertilized and implant in the uterus. The genetic connection is no more or less the same as siblings born at separate times. They may look alike, or they may not.
Scientists have theorized a third, hybrid type called polar body twinning, that occurs when an unfertilized egg splits into two parts and each part is fertilized by a different sperm. The twins would then share one-half of their gene set (from their mother). Because it is the father's DNA that determines the sex, the twins can be either same-sex or male/female.
These are just some of the facts that can be found online. I have genetics textbooks that go into greater detail but I think these will suffice.
I never say I was right from the start only some indication from other thread if you did read correctly from the start before posting. Also I never say "YOU ARE WRONG"...but only disagree with you.:heh:
Only part of this sentence makes any sense. I don't care if you disagree with me, but at least have some evidence to back it up and know really WHY you disagree. :eyebrow:
I don't believe because you've not given any proof to support. Why believe something that is unproven? :eyebrow: That would make me stupid to take someone's word at face value with no evidence to back it up. Provide evidence, then we can talk.
You say you know about fraternal twins yet make the incorrect statement:
If you indeed knew about fraternal twins, you would know that this statement is completely false, as this definition shows:
These are just some of the facts that can be found online. I have genetics textbooks that go into greater detail but I think these will suffice.
Only part of this sentence makes any sense. I don't care if you disagree with me, but at least have some evidence to back it up and know really WHY you disagree. :eyebrow:
I never ask you to believe, you can just choose to ignore what I have posted if you want to. Also, genetics textbook might give some good info but what if you check the countary about non twins but share the same mood at times...what do you say about that...I disagree with you just like how you disagree with me. Simple isn't it.:D
I never ask you to believe, you can just choose to ignore what I have posted if you want to. Also, genetics textbook might give some good info but what if you check the countary about non twins but share the same mood at times...what do you say about that...I disagree with you just like how you disagree with me. Simple isn't it.:D
And yet, I still see no proof. I disagree but yet provide proof as to why. You're just throwing out random statements but I've yet to note why you disagree. :eyebrow: Just because you can? If so, this isn't a debate, it's just silliness. If you disagree but only do so because you wish to, then I'm losing interest. Give me a real debate with real proof and real supporting arguments. I have a feeling that you don't have any real experience for the discussion at hand anyway. Moving on because this getting tedious. Apparently a real debate is not going to happen.
Moving back to the topic at hand...if there is going to be any alliance between Aswald and Garderobe, I have a feeling it might be through Miyu and Shizuru. Though Shizuru seems to be very loyal to Garderobe and the Otome system, I'm assuming she's reasonable and intelligent enough to see that there is a new threat looming and the Otomes are going to need help. SLAVES and CHILDs are looking to be detrimental for Otomes and that bastard Nagi is trying to stack the deck in his favour yet again. But his hubris may yet again send him crashing to Earth as in Mai HiME. To answer someone's question about how that 15 yr old boy-duke is so knowledgable about politics, I'm sure he was schooled in statecraft and politics from a very early age. I wouldn't be surprised if Artai had a hand in the raid on the castle and has been trying to manipulate the political landscape even prior to that.
And yet, I still see no proof. I disagree but yet provide proof as to why. You're just throwing out random statements but I've yet to note why you disagree. :eyebrow: Just because you can? If so, this isn't a debate, it's just silliness. If you disagree but only do so because you wish to, then I'm losing interest. Give me a real debate with real proof and real supporting arguments. I have a feeling that you don't have any real experience for the discussion at hand anyway. Moving on because this getting tedious. Apparently a real debate is not going to happen.
Me too, I am losing interest to debate with you who always demand proof at hand. If you do look properly in this forum many post are base on assumption and previous thread that reaches a conclusion and not real prove. I am not the one who lacks in the debating skills but I do think you are lack in your PR skills. And where did your prove comes about...isn't it from what others said and posted on others website. Can't they sometimes be wrong too.:eyespin:
And there is no silliness here unless you think so.
Me too, I am losing interest to debate with you who always demand proof at hand. If you do look properly in this forum many post are base on assumption and previous thread that reaches a conclusion and not real prove.
They don't quote things as fact only as conjecture and theory. You did neither. They actually SAY they are just theorizing based on proof or evidence from the series....scenes, dialogue, etc. I've yet to see yours.
I am not the one who lacks in the debating skills but I do think you are lack in your PR skills. And where did your prove comes about...isn't it from what others said and posted on others website.
It is easier to provide proof from others websites when access to scientific documentation is either unavailable or simply too complex for non-scientists to understand. I know far more about debate than you do, that much is clear. I've done it for many years. What does public relations have to do with anything? :confused: I'm not running for office. If asking for proof for reasoning is considered a non-debate skill, you need to look up your definitions again. Seriously. Websites can be wrong too, it happens. More often than not, though, official dictionary websites get their information from written sources. I'd send you to a library to read up on the items I've put forth as proof but you'd probably say that was a non-debate skill too :heh: Where is that IGNORE button when you want it?
For them to be twins will be 1 in a million chance....Thier physical and appearance looks entirely different. Mood doesn't determine anything....cuz everybody at some point share the same mood at times.
It may help a little
http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/6909/otom3130ql.th.jpg (http://img309.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otom3130ql.jpg)
they really look similar.
And mood theory somehow is better than crush thing ;)
Its interesting that during the whole personal debate between you 2, only 1 poster managed to butt-in.
Goes to show how much we like to see a good 1on1 drama of post-trades.:heh:
And mood theory somehow is better than crush thing ;)
I'd like to think that has a bit more credence than the crush thing. The crush just seems so random and out of the blue. I've had crushes before and I've never been quite as bad as Arika....she's gone from übergenki to totally lethargic. It makes no sense to me.
Its interesting that during the whole personal debate between you 2, only 1 poster managed to butt-in.
Goes to show how much we like to see a good 1on1 drama of post-trades.
Trust me, it's not worth butting in for. I'm over it and now moving on to a real discussion.
Ah, but about 90% of the discussions here on AF end up being pointless, because they keep disagree-ing with each other, and give "proof" that are actually "assumptions".
I had several such discussions recently....one with a poster at the *worst anime of 2005* thread, about how the existance of the thread, if used merely to express an anime you hate, is merely flame bait (which was countered by him, again).
Another here earlier on, about how MO's monarchy and castle system seem more low tech than the year shows. Yet people seem to find something to say..."oh, perhaps they needed to gain power on a new planet quickly".
...Times like these, I rather read these endless discussions.:heh:
They don't quote things as fact only as conjecture and theory. You did neither. They actually SAY they are just theorizing based on proof or evidence from the series....scenes, dialogue, etc. I've yet to see yours.
It is easier to provide proof from others websites when access to scientific documentation is either unavailable or simply too complex for non-scientists to understand. I know far more about debate than you do, that much is clear. I've done it for many years. What does public relations have to do with anything? :confused: I'm not running for office. If asking for proof for reasoning is considered a non-debate skill, you need to look up your definitions again. Seriously. Websites can be wrong too, it happens. More often than not, though, official dictionary websites get their information from written sources. I'd send you to a library to read up on the items I've put forth as proof but you'd probably say that was a non-debate skill too :heh: Where is that IGNORE button when you want it?
As far as I know..the link that you provide me are not a very accurate source cuz it was from different source that gave them the info. I have went for debating before..I know it quite well..and I meant PR skill is important in debating cuz that is where you can fully utilize your skills. My definition stands to a point. Also, i tried to reason with you but you wanted proof. Not everytime I can have proof at hand. Speculation would best describe it.:heh:
I guess this debate isn't ending yet.;)
Ah, but about 90% of the discussions here on AF end up being pointless, because they keep disagree-ing with each other, and give "proof" that are actually "assumptions".
I was trying to avoid that whole "assumptions" thing by giving evidence that almost anyone could look up, read through and understand.
I had several such discussions recently....one with a poster at the *worst anime of 2005* thread, about how the existance of the thread, if used merely to express an anime you hate, is merely flame bait (which was countered by him, again).
Ugh, I gave up that sort of discussion long ago. I know flame bait but people still seem to want to bite on the hook anyway. Go figure :eyebrow:
Another here earlier on, about how MO's monarchy and castle system seem more low tech than the year shows. Yet people seem to find something to say..."oh, perhaps they needed to gain power on a new planet quickly".
I missed that discussion but I have to agree with you. The monarchy and castle seem to look outdated compared to everything else about Windbloom. But England I think has that too....Windsor Castle has been standing for ages, relatively unchanged while England continues to advance, technologically speaking, all around them. In MO though it's not just the monarchy and castle that bothers me but the entire aristocracy that seems to remain unchanged. Mode of dress, manner of speaking, formalities and what not. All seem outdated, as if they're trying to cling to old times while the world changes and deteriorates around them.
I guess this debate isn't ending yet.
Yes it is, at least on my part. If he doesn't want to remotely bother to give proof but just run through this schoolyard nonsense, he can do it on his own. I don't have time to indulge silliness. Either prove your argument or don't make random, generic statements that you know will be challenged. I was perfectly willing to take this to PMs and not clutter up the threads. *shrug*
Ah, but about 90% of the discussions here on AF end up being pointless, because they keep disagree-ing with each other, and give "proof" that are actually "assumptions".
I had several such discussions recently....one with a poster at the *worst anime of 2005* thread, about how the existance of the thread, if used merely to express an anime you hate, is merely flame bait (which was countered by him, again).
Another here earlier on, about how MO's monarchy and castle system seem more low tech than the year shows. Yet people seem to find something to say..."oh, perhaps they needed to gain power on a new planet quickly".
...Times like these, I rather read these endless discussions.:heh:
Yeah, what you say is true...we are discussing things that are in the future..and most of the time end up pointless and with no hard solid conclusion. Wahahaha:heh: ..I love this type of debate....sorry off topic. :topicoff:
I missed that discussion but I have to agree with you. The monarchy and castle seem to look outdated compared to everything else about Windbloom. But England I think has that too....Windsor Castle has been standing for ages, relatively unchanged while England continues to advance, technologically speaking, all around them. In MO though it's not just the monarchy and castle that bothers me but the entire aristocracy that seems to remain unchanged. Mode of dress, manner of speaking, formalities and what not. All seem outdated, as if they're trying to cling to old times while the world changes and deteriorates around them.
Actually, what really bothered me is that, MO is suppose to be in the far future, where space colonist arrive and inhabit (perhaps earth was "dying"). And yet....things seem like what, a thousand years ago, with nano tech?
...even the car designs looked ancient.:eyebrow:
Actually, what really bothered me is that, MO is suppose to be in the far future, where space colonist arrive and inhabit (perhaps earth was "dying"). And yet....things seem like what, a thousand years ago, with nano tech?
...even the car designs looked ancient.:eyebrow:
Hmmm....true. But you know how that is....certain designs and what not get recycled from generation to generation. Like the new Ford Mustang has been retooled with the Shelby body style being brought back, bell bottoms are back in again and even certain types of music like swing made a resurgance. Man seems to go in cycles with certain things. I know how implausible it looks and sounds but maybe that's one possible theory.
Anh_Minh
2006-01-14, 12:27
They will not do the same mistake 2 times...If a war does break out, they will immediately assist Windbloom in defence. That happened 14 years ago and rules are subject to change cuz Mashiro is the queen. She would be the last queen in the royal line in Windbloom until she can have a family of her own. They would do anything at all cost to keep the queen save. Atleast this is what I think they might do. Doesn't mean I am right about it.
Why? Windbloom isn't that important to them. It's just closer than other countries. Neutrality would seem to count a lot more.
Actually, what really bothered me is that, MO is suppose to be in the far future, where space colonist arrive and inhabit (perhaps earth was "dying"). And yet....things seem like what, a thousand years ago, with nano tech?
...even the car designs looked ancient.:eyebrow:
These otomes really know how to admire old culture.:D
Why? Windbloom isn't that important to them. It's just closer than other countries. Neutrality would seem to count a lot more.
Dunno, just feel that things might go this way.
For what it's worth I see a heavy resemblance between Arika and Mashiro when their hair is down. But then again, in anime, a lot of characters look similar heh.
As to the twin mood theory - I think considering Mashiro and Arika are also joined by the Sapphire, then a sharing of emotions is extremely possible. It's just a step further than a sharing your 'life' with your master - both Arika/Mashiro are going through the dumps which seems very coincidental - with the former having to go out of her way to find a reason for it. Hmmmm.
Now moving onto my fave subject in the whole entire world. Tomoe. :eyespin:
When I received an email from one of the forum members, informing me that Tomoe’s minions were going to rape Arika, I was shocked.
After reading that line I'm shocked too! You get some pleasant emails :)
Shocked because although I disliked her greatly, I kept giving Tomoe the benefit of a doubt - something she obviously didn’t deserve - and played the devil’s advocate with most of you. I argued that Tomoe wouldn’t have done this or that, that there was just not enough evidence and that decisions were based on emotions and inference, but not facts.
Seeing the error of my ways and the refutable evidence brought forth in this episode, I now ponder as to what motivates Tomoe, and how come she has so much power of Miya.
Well I don't dislike Tomoe - of course I don't 'like' her either - but the character herself is a form of devil's advocate, one who is too easy to dislike - those characters are usually motiveless altogether so I'm happy to see Tomoe even get 'reasons'! And while I'm sometimes endeared to Arika's plight, other times have left me bemused over how 'lucky' she is. And allowances which are, really, more to do with the pendant she wears than necessarily Arika herself. That may sound cynical on the poor girl - but it's unlikely Arika would have even got in the school if Natsuki and Sergay (plus Shizuru and frickin Maria too) hadn't have seen the Sapphire. Which makes sense when noting the implications of who the Sapphire-wearer may be - but no-one is even sure whether the Sapphire is meant specifically for Arika (or given by her mother etc)
But what I mean: Tomoe's plans so far have backfired more to do with the pendant not due to Arika's 'brightness'. That is what drives so much of Arika - and what gives Natsuki so many ulterior motives for having Arika nearby. And of course the massive irony is that Shizuru's contact with Arika was originally rooted through Natsuki's desire to fish for infomation (although the ep 14 EDIT: 13, behaviour was genuine friendship it seems)
But anyway, if Arika loses the pendant - well Arika, Mashiro and Natsuki are all in the crapper somewhat.
I'm not sure why I'm so convinced Arika loses the pendant .....I guess because they were reaching for that first ......
But it would be cool to see Arika win a battle against Tomoe without the pendant, that would be grande.
Aside from trying to find alternate reasons for Tomoe’s hatred towards Arika, for I think this is way beyond just simple jealousy, I also ponder what power that girl has that makes Miya and four ruffians do her every whim? Just what is she’s hiding? And don’t those ruffians remember Nao’s threat the last time they walked on her turf? What coerced them?
I honestly think it's likely Miya was equally behind the incident this time - she was unsusprisingly pissed (and looks pretty guilty/ashamed next episode) - seeing her and Tomoe in the corridor, Tomoe knew all she had to do was act the 'shoulder to cry on' and all the revenge would come pouring out of Miya. The only direct motive Tomoe was given in episode 14 was the pendant. Which imo would be a direction that 'suits' Tomoe - getting ruffians to strip, beat (rape and what not)....... hmmm ........ most of what Tomoe has done previously has been 'simple' in execution with severe consequences. This does open up more angles for it to go wrong and seems a plan driven by pure anger (which could be Tomoe as well I will concede: judging last episode)
From what I understand, Tomoe is from Windbloom. And she is desiring to become an Otome. Although somewhat clouded by her infatuation with Shizuru Viola, one would think that her interests do lie with Windbloom - whatever they may be. Could it be that she thinks of Arika a threat in that department too? After all, Arika is a nobody. She grew up in a remote place probably not even on the map, and has little association with Windbloom. How could Arika have the best interest in regards to Windbloom?
Arika isn't the best interest for Windbloom - even the contract between M/A is being given, again, the benefit of the doubt by Natsuki. :mad: Whoops wrong smilie :cool:
Something sees amiss here and I wonder what it is. I made the suggestion that she was in league with either Schwartz, Black Valley, or some other association. Aside from the humorous replies that she should, therefore, activate a crystal so that we can be rid of her, once and for all, I wonder, truly, if there is merit behind my suggestion
I plead innocence - that was Shigan and Vallen! *Dio the snitch*
I think it makes sense bar her obsession with Shizuru. Spies shouldn't fall for the oneesamas of an institution you've infiltrated lol.
But England I think has that too....Windsor Castle has been standing for ages, relatively unchanged while England continues to advance, technologically speaking, all around them. In MO though it's not just the monarchy and castle that bothers me but the entire aristocracy that seems to remain unchanged. Mode of dress, manner of speaking, formalities and what not. All seem outdated, as if they're trying to cling to old times while the world changes and deteriorates around them.
Well England being the first country to have the industrial revolution, gained the most 'power' it ever got when Queen Vickie was on the throne (power which eventually deterioated rapidly on the decline of Imperialism...thankfully)
I don't think there is a concrete link between Luddism and Royalty but it really depends on the monarch.
And really what you'd love to say is the monarchy in England is comparatively ill-fitting and all the 'manner of speaking, formalities and what not' are incredibly dated. And you'd be right!! :heh: Don't worry I'm a Brit.
Actually, what really bothered me is that, MO is suppose to be in the far future, where space colonist arrive and inhabit (perhaps earth was "dying"). And yet....things seem like what, a thousand years ago, with nano tech?
...even the car designs looked ancient.
Sunrise are probably just merging genre. Windbloom does look like a HG Wells novel combined with Jane Eyre - but I reckon a lot of the MO world is quite sparse and more impoverished than that.
Hmmm....true. But you know how that is....certain designs and what not get recycled from generation to generation. Like the new Ford Mustang has been retooled with the Shelby body style being brought back, bell bottoms are back in again and even certain types of music like swing made a resurgance. Man seems to go in cycles with certain things. I know how implausible it looks and sounds but maybe that's one possible theory.
But the thing is...Ford Mustang is like, between 50-100 years old? (considering the current age with the year)
The car design used for MO cars is more like...400-500 years old, considering that MO is set, "far, far into the future".:heh:
Anh_Minh
2006-01-14, 12:39
*shrug* There are only so many ways to make a (reasonably balanced and aerodynamic) car.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2006-01-14, 12:40
Actually, what really bothered me is that, MO is suppose to be in the far future, where space colonist arrive and inhabit (perhaps earth was "dying"). And yet....things seem like what, a thousand years ago, with nano tech?
...even the car designs looked ancient.:eyebrow:
Think of it this way...
If you bring detailed plans for a nuclear-weapon, along with the plans for the factory that refines uranium, as well as mining methods, to early WW1 period Europe, they can build a nuclear bomb. They don't need to know E=mc^2 or even what nuclear fission is to get the bomb working.
But they can't develop a hydrogen-bomb from what you give them, because they don't know the basics of nuclear physics. Neither could they build a nuclear power-plant, or the smart missile, or military helicopters.
In the same way, the nano-tech is high-tech. But since it wasn't invented, developed or understood by the people using them, they can't reverse engineer basic items from it. Hence the Otome Robes have anti-gravity, but something as simple as an aircraft has not been constructed. Basic aerodynamics and art of lift generation via wing shape has been forgotten.
It would be like if the colony (as an example) has all the past knowledge stored in volumes sorted by alphabetical order, but a freak accident caused volume f, j, e, k, w, v, n, etc to go missing.
Tempest35
2006-01-14, 12:42
Okay, so let's say that Arika and Mashiro ARE fraternal twins (which brings the question of who's the daddy - King had somethin goin on? :heh:) for the sake of this one post -
- it would solve a few things very convientely (too convienetly for something made by Sunrise) in that it wouldn't matter WHICH one took to the throne - if only that one of them assumed the responsibility. Yet it would bring to light even more questions such as what was Rena's true relation to the Windbloom nobility among other things. And where exactly does Nina fit into all of this? She's seen Rena from when she was very very young herself.
Is Rena trying to play at England's 'Queen Victoria' here?? ^^;;
For me, I believe that yes, they are related, but a bit more distantly: such as the two being cousins. I'll bring up the fact that in almost every flashback of her, it's been Rena wearing the Blue Jewel of Heaven and not the known Queen. This suggests that Rena herself was nobility, if not directly related to the ruling King and Queen of Windbloom. This I'll also say as a side-note: there can be many Princes and Princesses, but only one Crown Prince, or Crown Princess - one designated to ascend the throne(s).
Think of it this way...
If you bring detailed plans for a nuclear-weapon, along with the plans for the factory that refines uranium, as well as mining methods, to early WW1 period Europe, they can build a nuclear bomb. They don't need to know E=mc^2 or even what nuclear fission is to get the bomb working.
But they can't develop a hydrogen-bomb from what you give them, because they don't know the basics of nuclear physics. Neither could they build a nuclear power-plant, or the smart missile, or military helicopters.
In the same way, the nano-tech is high-tech. But since it wasn't invented, developed or understood by the people using them, they can't reverse engineer basic items from it. Hence the Otome Robes have anti-gravity, but something as simple as an aircraft has not been constructed. Basic aerodynamics and art of lift generation via wing shape has been forgotten.
It would be like if the colony (as an example) has all the past knowledge stored in volumes sorted by alphabetical order, but a freak accident caused volume f, j, e, k, w, v, n, etc to go missing.
Here we go again.:heh:
You see, not being to extract technology from Otome's nanos is one thing, having a car that looks ancient is another.
How futuristic would I expect, at least? just a typical Mercedes will do. But no...it HAD to be 50 years older than that.;)
frodo1701
2006-01-14, 13:00
But the thing is...Ford Mustang is like, between 50-100 years old? (considering the current age with the year)
The car design used for MO cars is more like...400-500 years old, considering that MO is set, "far, far into the future".:heh:
I can think of a slightly different example of technology being lost and then being "invented" or rather re-invented.
I've been watching some shows about surgical instruments from the burials of Greek and Roman "doctors." These tools look almost exactly like modern operating instruments. Our modern tools have been developed in the last 100-125 years. If you look at tools used for operations during the U.S. Civil War, the tools were barbaric in comparison. Somewhere in the distant past we lost the ability to make and use the (Greek/Roman) tools and we have now "invented" them again.
That is how I see some of tech in Otome. Some things they were able to hold onto and some were lost and needed to be invented again. This could give you a mix modern and ancient that we see. The cars may look to have an old style to them because they were a re-invented item. After all they don't have working planes anymore. In order get one flying(without Arika's Gem) they would have to find some plans of the lost tech or start again from the begining.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2006-01-14, 13:04
Here we go again.:heh:
You see, not being to extract technology from Otome's nanos is one thing, having a car that looks ancient is another.
How futuristic would I expect, at least? just a typical Mercedes will do. But no...it HAD to be 50 years older than that.;)
For a car engineer from hundreds, if not thousands of years in the future, do you think she would care about a difference of 50 years? For her, they are ALL old car designs. She just had to pick one she liked. She doesn't know what a typical Mercedes is. Why would she want a 2006 model Mercedes anyway? Does 2006 have a special meaning to her?
Old, is old, is old. 50 years is nothing.
*shrug* There are only so many ways to make a (reasonably balanced and aerodynamic) car.
True...although I have to admit, although I love the Shelby style, the Mustangs are still so ridiculously heavy, just like the Corvettes. Why can't a good muscle car be light? :heh:
I can think of a slightly different example of technology being lost and then being "invented" or rather re-invented.
I've been watching some shows about surgical instruments from the burials of Greek and Roman "doctors." These tools look almost exactly like modern operating instruments. Our modern tools have been developed in the last 100-125 years. If you look at tools used for operations during the U.S. Civil War, the tools were barbaric in comparison. Somewhere in the distant past we lost the ability to make and use the (Greek/Roman) tools and we have now "invented" them again.
That is how I see some of tech in Otome. Some things they were able to hold onto and some were lost and needed to be invented again. This could give you a mix modern and ancient that we see. The cars may look to have an old style to them because they were a re-invented item. After all they don't have working planes anymore. In order get one flying(without Arika's Gem) they would have to find some plans of the lost tech or start again from the begining.
I think that was what I was trying to say, but you said it far better :heh:
For a car engineer from hundreds, if not thousands of years in the future, do you think she would care about a difference of 50 years? For her, they are ALL old car designs. She just had to pick one she liked. She doesn't know what a typical Mercedes is. Why would she want a 2006 model Mercedes anyway? Does 2006 have a special meaning to her?
Old, is old, is old. 50 years is nothing.
Hmm. And I wonder why the "flying planes" we saw on episode 1 seem so futuristic (Star Trek type) and yet they are unable to do something similar for their cars?
...:eyebrow:
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2006-01-14, 13:16
Hmm. And I wonder why the "flying planes" we saw on episode 1 seem so futuristic (Star Trek type) and yet they are unable to do something similar for their cars?
...:eyebrow:
Well, they have no idea how to use the planes at all. So obviously they didn't built the planes.
Actually, I think that the planes are unable to operate, due to the lacking for a powerful-enough power-source?
Or rather, they dont work anymore. And basic human instinct = monkey see, monkey do. Meaning that they "should" be copying the outlook onto cars. Yet this wasn't the case...
Anh_Minh
2006-01-14, 14:04
Actually, Eclipze does kinda have a point.
If they have cars, they have engines. They don't really need to understand how wings work (from what I understand, most people didn't, at first, not even those who actually built planes - they just knew it worked and had a false explanation.) If you have wings and engines, you're practically there. You just need a lot of trial and error and you'll have a working plane.
Have you forgotten about such a thing as culture?
People use traditional designs for one simple reason; tradition. These people have records of the "old days", and know what a castle is "suppose" to look like. There is a reason Disneyland has a castle.
And what "Futuristic" designs have you got in mind? Blade-runner?
The castles are obviously decorative, with the intention of showing off the ruler's status, and not designed for military defence. Whatever that can defeat an Otome won't be stopped by stone walls or even blast-doors 5 feet thick.
Yup, your theory is definitely folly, proof that you too fall under the spell of tunnelvision. Have you forgotten the airplane and the tank inside the castle grounds? If there were otome around that time there would be no planes or tanks inside the castle grounds. There is no need for such in the age of materialization.
It is therefore obvious that castles in the future were not built for decorative purposes alone.
Think of it this way...
If you bring detailed plans for a nuclear-weapon, along with the plans for the factory that refines uranium, as well as mining methods, to early WW1 period Europe, they can build a nuclear bomb. They don't need to know E=mc^2 or even what nuclear fission is to get the bomb working.
But they can't develop a hydrogen-bomb from what you give them, because they don't know the basics of nuclear physics. Neither could they build a nuclear power-plant, or the smart missile, or military helicopters.
In the same way, the nano-tech is high-tech. But since it wasn't invented, developed or understood by the people using them, they can't reverse engineer basic items from it. Hence the Otome Robes have anti-gravity, but something as simple as an aircraft has not been constructed. Basic aerodynamics and art of lift generation via wing shape has been forgotten.
It would be like if the colony (as an example) has all the past knowledge stored in volumes sorted by alphabetical order, but a freak accident caused volume f, j, e, k, w, v, n, etc to go missing.
Here you go again. Take it from a former University Physics Instructor that what you say is not entirely correct. America stole Germany's scientists while Russia took the plants and rockets of East Germany. And yet both were able to develop more advanced technology from such sources. Why? As you yourself mentioned, one such method is reverse-engineering.
But it's not as limited as you make it. With reverse-engineering you can recreate "volume f, j, e, k, w, v, n, " but you don't need it to recreate Einstein's mass-to-energy conversion theory. The latter only needs a clever mind, some semi-advanced mathematics (that can be created from scratch), and the ability to think out-of-the-box.
Humans have a brain, and given the time and resources, they will advance. MO's reason for the lack of advancement lies elsewhere. Perhaps that super-computer that Arika stumbled upon limits the knowledge available to the world of MO somehow, making "volume f, j, e, k, w, v, n" unavailable. Again I say, given the time and resources, they will advance. 300 year is enough to overcome such obstacles. The fact that knowledge did not multiply as it should've in those 300 years suggests that the limiting factor lies elsewhere.
In a futuristic anime world such as MO, I can only speculate. But we are given some clues. The first one is that Guarderobe guards and controls the advancement of technology. Advancement? No, and that to their own folly! They don't seem to be too concerned about advancement. I don't see a research staff and tests being run. I don't see new technology emerging. It seems that they are just too plain comfortable in being who they are, and too reliant upon their current technology.
And even with the threat of rival technologies emerging, they are content to leave theirs as is. That, to me, spells distruction.
Guarderobe's strentgh will certainly be tested in the near future as Windbloom will be attacked.
Well, they have no idea how to use the planes at all. So obviously they didn't built the planes.
Do you think they brought those planes over from Earth using their spaceships? That's just plain stupid. Of course these people knew how to build them back then, and how to repair them. It was after all before the age of materialization, the age where people still possessed such technologies, the age where Guarderobe was not the sole controller of technology.
Perhaps one of the wars in the old MO reached such a grand proportion that a world treaty was signed and all technology was handed over to Guarderobe to control and guard. And as such, Guardians, called Pillars, were formed to guard Guarderobe, and representatives were sent out to all the kingdoms, a.k.a. Meisters, to keep that balance of peace.
That the strength of an otome would also control the balance of power was most likely not considered when the technological-limiting decision was made.
Anh_Minh
2006-01-14, 15:46
Two points:
- neither the US not the USSR were very far behind Germany, technologically and, scientifically.In their vision of how the world is put together. As far as people in MO are concerned, though, materialisation might as well be magic. It's certainly the case for us. It works, but I don't think they have any idea how.
- I think it more likely the colonists already had materialisation technology. Or maybe they brought some of it with them, without the means of making more. Something between the time they landed and the series' present happened that made them lose the tech, along with many more.
Question: how did they arrive on their planet? If they arrived in "generation ships", rather than FTL ships, it'd account for a lot. Like the fact it was a one way ticket and that they have no contact with other planets. And they could have lost all understanding of their tech during the trip. The knowledge would have died a bit more with each generation of migrant. They could have brought all kinds of goodies with them, for the colonisation, devices built to last centuries... but retained only a basic understanding of how to operate them. They'd be limited by the ship's relatively low population and, most importantly, their lack of motivation. What good would it be to learn, when their world would be limited to jus a ship? A world they don't dare tamper with? They wouldn't have any place to apply their knowledge.
PastPrime
2006-01-14, 18:28
Ah, but about 90% of the discussions here on AF end up being pointless, because they keep disagree-ing with each other, and give "proof" that are actually "assumptions".
I had several such discussions recently....one with a poster at the *worst anime of 2005* thread, about how the existance of the thread, if used merely to express an anime you hate, is merely flame bait (which was countered by him, again).
Another here earlier on, about how MO's monarchy and castle system seem more low tech than the year shows. Yet people seem to find something to say..."oh, perhaps they needed to gain power on a new planet quickly".
...Times like these, I rather read these endless discussions.:heh:
Just out of curiosity, exactly how many different castles have we seen, from the outside so we know that it is actually a castle. From the long discussion it sounds like 40 or 50, but I only remember seeing the one in Windbloom.
PastPrime
2006-01-14, 18:39
But the thing is...Ford Mustang is like, between 50-100 years old? (considering the current age with the year)
The car design used for MO cars is more like...400-500 years old, considering that MO is set, "far, far into the future".:heh:
I doubt that they would have had room for cars or car factories on the ship/ships taking them to Earl so everything would have had to be built there. It would not be surprising if they started with older designs. Of course, the automobiles might have regressed with all the other technology.
PastPrime
2006-01-14, 18:54
It may help a little
http://img309.imageshack.us/img309/6909/otom3130ql.th.jpg (http://img309.imageshack.us/my.php?image=otom3130ql.jpg)
they really look similar.
And mood theory somehow is better than crush thing ;)
If they do end up being fraternal twins then perhaps the Princess had already been sent to safety and both the babies in the flashback were Rena's. She sent one with the maid and fled with Arika to draw Asward away from her other daughter and the Princess.
Xellos-_^
2006-01-14, 19:18
They will not do the same mistake 2 times...If a war does break out, they will immediately assist Windbloom in defence. That happened 14 years ago and rules are subject to change cuz Mashiro is the queen. She would be the last queen in the royal line in Windbloom until she can have a family of her own. They would do anything at all cost to keep the queen save. Atleast this is what I think they might do. Doesn't mean I am right about it.
They can't just change the rules. It isn't windbloom's rule or just the school's rule. it is a international Law design to keep the school netural. The Pillers in the school can't decide to interven because they feel like it and remeber the Coral and peral class also form different countries. They can't afford to have school meddle in international affairs becuase then the students will get invole and things will get really messy
Two points:
- neither the US not the USSR were very far behind Germany, technologically and, scientifically.In their vision of how the world is put together. As far as people in MO are concerned, though, materialisation might as well be magic. It's certainly the case for us. It works, but I don't think they have any idea how.
- I think it more likely the colonists already had materialisation technology. Or maybe they brought some of it with them, without the means of making more. Something between the time they landed and the series' present happened that made them lose the tech, along with many more.
Question: how did they arrive on their planet? If they arrived in "generation ships", rather than FTL ships, it'd account for a lot. Like the fact it was a one way ticket and that they have no contact with other planets. And they could have lost all understanding of their tech during the trip. The knowledge would have died a bit more with each generation of migrant. They could have brought all kinds of goodies with them, for the colonisation, devices built to last centuries... but retained only a basic understanding of how to operate them. They'd be limited by the ship's relatively low population and, most importantly, their lack of motivation. What good would it be to learn, when their world would be limited to jus a ship? A world they don't dare tamper with? They wouldn't have any place to apply their knowledge.
Perhaps they did have the materialization technology, perhaps they didn't. When we look at spaceships, a plane, and a tank, I see no evidence that points the way of materialization. So who knows? All I see is an old spaceport, and an old foundation of a castle with a beaten up tank and a shot down plane. That doesn't look like materialization to me, but who knows?
The existence of Materialization does very little to the argument as a tank is still a tank and a plane is still a plane. It is possible for them to be regressive technology; and yet it is still a tank and a fighter plane. The fact that they existed implies also that some traditional defences were in place. Which is to say that strongholds are not there for looks alone. They have a purpose. And that is my point.
Mind you, it's foolish to believe that a regular medieval castle such as the one in Windbloom can withstand the onslaught of tanks and fighter planes. The one depicted in ep 14 with Nagi seems much more suitable to the task...
Now about the difference in knowledge in reverse-engineering, it makes no difference, given enough time and resources. That's why it's called reverse-engineering! In addition, MO is vast enough that a gathering of the most intellectually skilled individuals will surely result in scientific advancements and more modern creations.
Although it's inference, I believe that the limit in advancement is as I stated (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=445530&postcount=292).
They can't just change the rules. It isn't windbloom's rule or just the school's rule. it is a international Law design to keep the school netural. The Pillers in the school can't decide to interven because they feel like it and remeber the Coral and peral class also form different countries. They can't afford to have school meddle in international affairs becuase then the students will get invole and things will get really messy
I agree. And they might still abide by the treaty that forced them no to get involved the last time.
But, on the other hand, and I don't know where I heard this from, I can certainly see that Guarderobe will be evacuated when Windbloom is attacked, and that, as a result of the contract, Arika will be sent to defend Mashiro. ** yipee - finally some action **
Does this imply that Arika will have the saphires back?
Anh_Minh
2006-01-14, 20:06
It's called reverse-engineering because you have a finished product and try to get engineering principle, instead of the other way around. But there are some serious limits.
Give today's computers to a stone age civilisation and they won't be able to do anything useful with them. They'll first have to work all the way to the principles of basic electronic, not to mention the microscopes they'll need to analyse the hardware. And to make copies? There some very complicated materials in those boxes. And so on.
Just out of curiosity, exactly how many different castles have we seen, from the outside so we know that it is actually a castle. From the long discussion it sounds like 40 or 50, but I only remember seeing the one in Windbloom.
Im pretty sure Akane's country (the one with the Otome who is retiring) is also with a castle. Midori's organization went to the castle to see him, afterall.
I doubt that they would have had room for cars or car factories on the ship/ships taking them to Earl so everything would have had to be built there. It would not be surprising if they started with older designs. Of course, the automobiles might have regressed with all the other technology.
Well, yes, what you say makes sense.
But it was already stated, that they have arrived on Earl for at least 300 years already. Yet still using the older car designs? surely if they can make a transport like the one that moves through deserts in episode one, that they can come up with something that doesn't look so ancient.
And designs are quite diffferent from technology: technology determind how the car would operate (be it on a traditional steam engine, or some high-tech plasma energy engine), but designs serve no real purpose besides outlook. Yet in 300 years, things didnt change.
monstert
2006-01-14, 20:55
Im pretty sure Akane's country (the one with the Otome who is retiring) is also with a castle. Midori's organization went to the castle to see him, afterall. I don't think they're the same country. Akane's would-be master is not the same as the "king" that Midori's group met with. I doubt this king would let another noble have an otome if his otome retired. But I guess that's not the point of your post, sorry.
Just saw the saw the episode again, it didn't look much like a castle to me.
USCPharmacist
2006-01-14, 22:15
Im pretty sure Akane's country (the one with the Otome who is retiring) is also with a castle. Midori's organization went to the castle to see him, afterall.
Well, yes, what you say makes sense.
But it was already stated, that they have arrived on Earl for at least 300 years already. Yet still using the older car designs? surely if they can make a transport like the one that moves through deserts in episode one, that they can come up with something that doesn't look so ancient.
And designs are quite diffferent from technology: technology determind how the car would operate (be it on a traditional steam engine, or some high-tech plasma energy engine), but designs serve no real purpose besides outlook. Yet in 300 years, things didnt change.
Who's to say that people on Earl have to prefer what we like, for all we know maybe they prefer the retro design. Those car could run on cold fusion you know.
I know this is a bit off topic but do think that Sergay is Mai's master? I am basing this assumption on the fact that the keychain he dropped looked like it had a gem in it...
http://www.geocities.com/insane_elf_girl/mai.jpg
Any thoughts?
As promised! East coast Saturday release!
Otome 14 out.
We barely made it. Mai-Otome 14 out from Doremi-fansubs.
Xellos-_^
2006-01-14, 23:04
I know this is a bit off topic but do think that Sergay is Mai's master? I am basing this assumption on the fact that the keychain he dropped looked like it had a gem in it...
Any thoughts?
Answer: No
Mai is form Zaping and was slated to be either her fathers Otome or her younger brother Takumi.
She was also offered the job as a Piller.
However there is speculation that Sergy and Mai had some sort of http://www.geocities.com/insane_elf_girl/mai.jpgrelationship. And the key chian is another one little thing that can mean either a relation between mai and sergy or it could mean nothing at all.
Tempest35
2006-01-14, 23:04
I know this is a bit off topic but do think that Sergay is Mai's master? I am basing this assumption on the fact that the keychain he dropped looked like it had a gem in it...
http://www.geocities.com/insane_elf_girl/mai.jpg
Any thoughts?
Most likely it's just a conicidence that the orange gem looks like it could be used as a GEM - but the SergayxMai fan within me says that it's from Mai. Since she's a PILLAR, she won't have an ACTUAL corresponding Master's GEM to go with it.
Could just be a replica keepsake that means that she thinks of him as the only 'master' she'd ever serve? :heh: Probably not - the Mai we know wouldn't go that far...would she???
*shakes head* Naaaah~ the thing's probably just suppose to be a cherry. ^^;;;
Most likely it's just a conicidence that the orange gem looks like it could be used as a GEM - but the SergayxMai fan within me says that it's from Mai. Since she's a PILLAR, she won't have an ACTUAL corresponding Master's GEM to go with it.
Could just be a replica keepsake that means that she thinks of him as the only 'master' she'd ever serve? :heh: Probably not - the Mai we know wouldn't go that far...would she???
*shakes head* Naaaah~ the thing's probably just suppose to be a cherry. ^^;;;
LOL! Her one and only 'master' does sound tempting ;)
... then again, maybe she left her gem in his care?
... also, in the previews, Shadow 1 is kissing Shadow 2 ... and no matter how i look at it, Shadow 1 is Sergay and Shadow 2 looks a 'lot' like Mai...
Tempest35
2006-01-14, 23:45
Which Ep? #15?
so just to be sure, and i did search through the faqs and this thread, arika isnt the daughter of rena, but the king? so rena's kid is still out there?
ArchDragon
2006-01-15, 02:27
so just to be sure, and i did search through the faqs and this thread, arika isnt the daughter of rena, but the king? so rena's kid is still out there?
If that old lady is saying the truth, then yes, Arika is the real Mashiro.
And Rena's daughter is most likely Nina, as she saw Rena's face when she drowned.
It would be ironic if Rena named her daughter Arika, even more so for her to be "randomly" adopted by Sergay.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Watched the subbed ep. just now.
So, even Natsuki knows who supported Arika now, not too hard to figure, I guess.
Who in the world would know right off the bat that Arika has no support and offered her support?
The one who found her in the desert, Sergay.
Looks like Arika is the only person left who doesn't know.
Somehow, I think it's too late for Sunrise to be making another red herring with the old lady's confession.
Since the only way to debunk her words (should they be untrue) is for Rena herself to appear and tell the whole story.
Which is unlikely IMO unless they want to extend this series beyond 26 eps.
And I'm really curious how long will Sergay play dog to Nagi, he's bound to breakaway eventually, as Nagi's plans become more and more diabolical.
I know this is a bit off topic but do think that Sergay is Mai's master? I am basing this assumption on the fact that the keychain he dropped looked like it had a gem in it...
http://www.geocities.com/insane_elf_girl/mai.jpg
Any thoughts?
It could mean anything - the first time I saw it though it reminded me of the symbol of peace - the flying dove which carries twine/ribbon. And that would certainly fit when Sergay threw it down between the quarrelling Romulus and Remus leaders...
And nah, I don't think Sergay is Mai's master. At all. But there's always a possibility the keychain does mean something Mai-related. Afterall Mai was always one to promote that attitude.
... then again, maybe she left her gem in his care?
I'm inclined to think she didn't - because the legend version had her going into the forest seemingly with her glowing gem thingie.
arika isnt the daughter of rena, but the king? so rena's kid is still out there?
Also next episode seems to have more from said old lady (she may well have lied...) - but if we think she's telling the truth, then it seems Rena put the pendant on the Princess not her own baby. Unless Rena is a Princess too (hence gave birth to a mini Princess, but I don't believe Rena was so...*brain implodes*)
LonelyWolf
2006-01-15, 03:19
... Unless Rena is a Princess too (hence gave birth to a mini Princess, but I don't believe Rena was so...*brain implodes*)
Don't break a sweat over it. I will stick to the simpler route. Which is that Arika IS the princess. Because of that and Nagi's diabolical schemes it's not too hard to think that Arika's world (and the other otome girls) will be turned up side down.
So Arika = real princess
mashiro = ??? Rena's daughter
Nina = ??? Rena's Daughter
Hell anyone could be Rena's daugther.... Even Nagi could be REna's child....
LonelyWolf
2006-01-15, 03:39
So Arika = real princess
mashiro = ??? Rena's daughter
Nina = ??? Rena's Daughter
Hell anyone could be Rena's daugther.... Even Nagi could be REna's child....
Whatever the outcome I want to be pleasantly surprised :)
Good episode although I do think that the evil smile™ is getting annoying.
first off the ep was could it went weird and dark at the very end. and you already know what I am talking about.:twitch: :twitch:
Also does this mean(looking at next episode) Sergey is going to be some type of pedophile?:twitch: :twitch: :twitch:
what is up with this 26 and 15 that is just to freaky for me to understand.:twitch:
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2006-01-15, 04:49
first off the ep was could it went weird and dark at the very end. and you already know what I am talking about.:twitch: :twitch:
Also does this mean(looking at next episode) Sergey is going to be some type of pedophile?:twitch: :twitch: :twitch:
what is up with this 26 and 15 that is just to freaky for me to understand.:twitch:
10 years difference isn't really that strange. You would be surprised at the number of countires that would permit marriage of such couples. Anyway, no one said they have to get married or even have sex at this age. Nothing stops them from waiting until it's legal.
And even if you don't understand, that doesn't mean it isn't happening in real life.
Nightengale
2006-01-15, 05:12
10 years difference isn't really that strange. You would be surprised at the number of countires that would permit marriage of such couples. Anyway, no one said they have to get married or even have sex at this age. Nothing stops them from waiting until it's legal.
And even if you don't understand, that doesn't mean it isn't happening in real life.
We've (( in general )) gone through this many times, and the only real problem most fans dislike is how it really doesn't match Sergay's character. Legally, Arika is already old enough by Japanese standards to have sex, and is just one year away from the legal age of marriage in Japan. And 10, 20 years difference was never a taboo in the first place. It just doesn't look....matching.
Vallen Chaos Valiant
2006-01-15, 05:29
We've (( in general )) gone through this many times, and the only real problem most fans dislike is how it really doesn't match Sergay's character. Legally, Arika is already old enough by Japanese standards to have sex, and is just one year away from the legal age of marriage in Japan. And 10, 20 years difference was never a taboo in the first place. It just doesn't look....matching.
Well...
We don't know what Sergay is really like, except he had (and maybe still has?) a thing for Rena. The Mai thing is inconclusive, and Arika can have a crush on anyone she feels like.
As for matching... I am not good with that. Never had any idea about what is or isn't matching between two people.
If they do end up being fraternal twins then perhaps the Princess had already been sent to safety and both the babies in the flashback were Rena's. She sent one with the maid and fled with Arika to draw Asward away from her other daughter and the Princess.
well, I think that twins theory is too simple...or too complicated. Although Arika and Mashiro look pretty similar. If it means something, maybe some experiment theory, Miyu involved, would be nicer?;)
Another thing is mood theory. Maybe they have the same mood not because they are twins, but because of contract. So Arika has crush on Sergey as a result of Mashiro's feelings.:heh:
Nightengale
2006-01-15, 06:32
Well...
We don't know what Sergay is really like, except he had (and maybe still has?) a thing for Rena. The Mai thing is inconclusive, and Arika can have a crush on anyone she feels like.
As for matching... I am not good with that. Never had any idea about what is or isn't matching between two people.
The question here is on the assumption that he returns Arika's feelings. True, Arika can have a crush on anyone, and it's normal for a girl her age. And yes, we don't know what Sergay is really like, but I think the beach hiking test scenario is enough to conclude that it's irrational for Sergay to look at Arika in that manner. Sure, he had a split second of a tense thought, but any sane man cuddling next to a naked teenager would.
Matching really depends. We all know Sergay ages with grace. Assuming Sergay was the man of Mai's heart, I'd think it looked mismatched to everyone if it was Coral Mai and Sergay. Yet surely people won't mind if it was Pearl Mai and Sergay.
Kinny Riddle
2006-01-15, 08:00
Oh man, damn you Sunrise for planting dirty thoughts in my head near the end of the episode when Arika is being forced into "premature Otome graduation". This is gonna spawn even more doujinshis after the tentacle swimming pool monster ep. :heh:
From the preview though, it seems Sergey is going to be the knight saving the damsel in distress, Arika's clothes don't seem to be torn or ragged in the brief screenshots. Guess we can still be hopeful of Meister Arika kicking ass.
Casting the dirty thoughts aside, kind of intrigued to hear Miyu mention the term "CHILD", this throws the whole thing into debate, as to whether Mai HiME and Mai Otome are in the same universe.
I don't know if I'm the only one who doesn't have any problem with Arika's crush on Sergay, but I don't see what the fuss is about. For a girl her age to have a crush with someone older is normal. Of course, if Sergay returns that feeling, that'll be a whole different debate altogether. :D Though I wouldn't have any problem with it either, for me Sergay isn't that old and Arika isn't that young.
Maybe the old lady isn't telling the whole truth, since she's yet to see Arika herself, but maybe we all are complicating something that should be quite simple. :D
Nightengale
2006-01-15, 08:24
Sergay the North Hound.....:eyebrow:
I can't be the only one getting Hokuto no Ken vibes from this one.
I would mark out if they did..
*Just as the Miyathugs proceeds*
Sergay : Stop it right there.
Thugs : What the hell!? *attacks Sergay*
Sergay : *Enters the claw-mode, ripping off their flesh*
Thugs : Too..o co..l..d............ *dies*
Sergay : My star is the star of the North Wolf, I mean Hound.
Anyway, I doubt the kiss will happen. Most likely Arika will just get fingered at her forehead, get all huggy and fatherly with Sergay, and solves her problem.
The way I see it is that there are two types of Himes.
Natural born Himes and technologically induced Otome’s.
It stands to reason that a natural born Hime would inherit their parents genes. So Arika’s partial transformation before she ever received a nano-machine injection would indicate that her mother was indeed a true Hime and not an Otome. Since an Otome’s power to materialize comes from Nano-machines and can not be passed down from mother to daughter Arika would have to be the daughter of a true Hime.
Which brings us to Rena’s amulet and just who is the real princess?
Unless the Queen was a full blooded Hime, Arika could not be the real princess!
My guess is that after Rena placed her amulet on the princess a switch was made to further protect the princesses identity. If Mashiro doesn’t turn out to be the real princess, I’ll be surprised!
After all where better to hide the real princess than in plain sight?
Ten years is not so much ;) But I doubt Sergay will unleash his feelings towards Arika, now that he knows she is the real queen...
All your stories on possible future events are good but you all are forgetting one very important thing - the blue star - we have close-up on it in every episode yet still nothing involving it... I'm awaiting some big story twist soon...
Ronin Aquila
2006-01-15, 11:09
Boy Oh Boy....
Of all the frightening cliffhangers to leave the audience on... :upset:
Without giving away anything (watch for yourself, you'll hate her a lot more that way), if you do not already HATE Tomoe with homocidal fury before this episode, what she orders underlings in this episode to do to Arika-Chan will make you want to hang her like a fucking pinyata, beat her ass to the stone age with a nail-laden baseball-bat until she is crippled-and-crooked-and-deformed, and then put her FEET-FIRST through a rust-and-blunt-bladed Happy-Tree-Wood-Chipper. :mad:
If you don't hate her enough to kill her after this episode, you are not human. ;)
We've (( in general )) gone through this many times, and the only real problem most fans dislike is how it really doesn't match Sergay's character. Legally, Arika is already old enough by Japanese standards to have sex, and is just one year away from the legal age of marriage in Japan. And 10, 20 years difference was never a taboo in the first place. It just doesn't look....matching.
You're wasting your breath convincing certain people. They don't realise that in the cases where girls in other countries are permitted to marry at a young age it is WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. Big difference that apparently a few people are willing to ignore.
Akuma-sama
2006-01-15, 12:06
Without giving away anything (watch for yourself, you'll hate her a lot more that way), if you do not already HATE Tomoe with homocidal fury before this episode, what she orders underlings in this episode to do to Arika-Chan will make you want to hang her like a fucking pinyata, beat her ass to the stone age with a nail-laden baseball-bat until she is crippled-and-crooked-and-deformed, and then put her FEET-FIRST through a rust-and-blunt-bladed Happy-Tree-Wood-Chipper. :mad:
My, what an interesting imagery :heh:
And I totally agree. Stupid Tomoe! :frustrated:
But I can get why she's so mad; feels to me like she knew, just like Erstin, that Arika had the Souten no Seigyoku, from the start. THAT would give her two motives to take out Arika; securing her place as Mashiro's Otome (she probably doesn't know there's a contract between Mashiro and Arika already), and destroying the little country-hick upstart who's being entirely too familiar with her precious Shizuru-Oneesama.
...still... *hangs Tomoe like a Pinyata and beats her to the stone age with a nail-laden baseball-bat until she's crippled-and-cooked-and-deformed, and shoves her feet-first through a rust-and-blunt bladed Happy-Tree-Wood-Chipper*
And Sergei, too, though it's not his fault. I want Genki!Arika back! >_<
Review coming after I watch it a few more times...
If you don't hate her enough to kill her after this episode, you are not human. ;)
Rofl! :heh: Glad(or not) that Im still human.:rolleyes:
But I can get why she's so mad; feels to me like she knew, just like Erstin, that Arika had the Souten no Seigyoku, from the start. THAT would give her two motives to take out Arika; securing her place as Mashiro's Otome (she probably doesn't know there's a contract between Mashiro and Arika already), and destroying the little country-hick upstart who's being entirely too familiar with her precious Shizuru-Oneesama.
I'm finding Tomoe's characterisation extremely jarring - I'm glad she's not completely void of reasons but it still doesn't make full sense. It's so much easier for an anime to having a walking maniac as their antagonist, but come on, the transition she's made in a week is....and Sunrise have done this before....ala evil smile and the whole OTT baggage.
If I'm scraping at straws (which I'll do, just once more, just for the sake of being suicidal on this forum), ''she'' instructs them to play around with Arika - is it more likely Miya instructs her own lackey's? And of course Tomoe would ask Miya, but that doesn't exactly bode well for Miya's set of morals either - and she's meant to be sane.
Also the term 'privilege' is used (at least in the Doremi version, I'll be interested to see what other subs use for these lines) - Arika being a virgin isn't a ''privilege'' for becoming an Otome (because any girls start out with that ''privilege''..) The Blue Sapphire is though. That induced the evil smile. This being about wanting to become Windbloom's great Otome doesn't make sense fully either - it's about the Sapphire imo - which if it is, then Tomoe might be an even bigger bad...
But of course there is the more (obvious) sinister interpretation; I'm holding out till next week for the full 'play-out' - if the lackeys were sent there for the Sapphire but interpreted themselves the different way then that's not so much blame on Tomoe (well on a scale of 1 to 10 - with 10 being evil, it would be around 9, which is better than the 10 Tomoe appears to be at right now :uhoh: )
So yeah, I'll run for my life now..
Anh_Minh
2006-01-15, 12:56
I'm not really bothered by Tomoe's transition into evil. What bothers me about her is that she had it in for Arika since before they even met. (I'm talking about the uniform incident.)
Arika was a curiosity, certainly, but also a nobody. Why so much hate? From Nina or Erstin, I could understand, since she almost got Nina expelled. But what did she ever do to Tomoe?
But once past that little question, the escalation of her "pranks" is rather natural.
kari-no-sugata
2006-01-15, 13:30
I'm not really bothered by Tomoe's transition into evil. What bothers me about her is that she had it in for Arika since before they even met. (I'm talking about the uniform incident.)
Arika was a curiosity, certainly, but also a nobody. Why so much hate? From Nina or Erstin, I could understand, since she almost got Nina expelled. But what did she ever do to Tomoe?
But once past that little question, the escalation of her "pranks" is rather natural.
If you look at Tomoe while Arika is showing her stuff in ep 3-4 while using the Coral Robe, she certainly has a different reaction to the rest. Unless she knows more than she lets on, she seems to fear Arika in some way. Arika getting along well with Shizuru makes it even worse.
So Tomoe goes from using the opportunity of Arika's uniform being spoilt, to use the opportunity to switch salt/sugar labels (which could have resulted in several students being hurt), to sabotaging Arika and Erstin's tracking bracelets (which could have resulted in both Arika and Erstin being hurt or worse), to getting a gang of thugs to specifically target Arika. One thing to note is that she doesn't seem to care about "collatoral damage" - sure she wants Arika gone, but she doesn't give a damn about the others either. She doesn't care if Arika or others die either. That's pretty abnormal. I dunno what her background is, but certainly you'd expect something bad to have happened to her in her childhood to make her attitude credible. Obviously with her latest plan, she's actually taking a big risk - the previous occations seemed like accidents though certainly made people suspicious. However, that wouldn't be an excuse this time. I dunno if Tomoe realises it, but what those thugs are about to do is something that'd have to be investigated fully.
As a side note: though Miya isn't the mastermind, she's still guilty of crimes. She also looks like a "fall guy". Since Tomoe is (somewhat) keeping her hands clean, it's possible that Miya could get the blame but Tomoe isn't even warned.
Metdragoid
2006-01-15, 13:34
Pretty good ep. lots of character and plot deveploment. Also some new revelations about characters. And I wonder what kind of guy Sergey realy is and whos side he will end. Also I don't believe that Arika is the princess and something else happened that we don't know yet. And Tomea comes more evil each passing ep. I hope she would die soon.
Anyway, I doubt the kiss will happen. Most likely Arika will just get fingered at her forehead, get all huggy and fatherly with Sergay, and solves her problem.
I agree with this statement and believe that at least something similiar will happen. because thats something that would fit to their characters. Well maybe Arika would brood little bit about it, but would soon get over it and be his self(maybe after she has talked with Mashiro about it).
And Shizuru commenting about that Miyu was like Aswalds leader(Midori), that leads me to think that does Miyu have some connections to Aswalds? And if he does is she in friendly terms with them? And if she is then maybe they will allie them with Arika at some point and if that happens then what would Arika do? I doubt after that she wouldn't be with that good terms with Garderobe.
But only time will tell what will happen.
I'm not really bothered by Tomoe's transition into evil. What bothers me about her is that she had it in for Arika since before they even met. (I'm talking about the uniform incident.)
Arika was a curiosity, certainly, but also a nobody. Why so much hate? From Nina or Erstin, I could understand, since she almost got Nina expelled. But what did she ever do to Tomoe?
But once past that little question, the escalation of her "pranks" is rather natural.
Perhaps she somehow saw the little exchange between Arika and Shizuru at the very begining? That would most certainly give her enough to hate Arika, since she wz nearly kissed by shizuru? :eyespin:
Or maybe Tomoe just wants Arika off the scene since she, Tomoe herself, is the daughter of Rena? :heh: (hope not!)
Anyway, I doubt the kiss will happen. Most likely Arika will just get fingered at her forehead, get all huggy and fatherly with Sergay, and solves her problem.
My two cents on the kiss is that it's Sergay's flashback to the time when he and 'Mai' kissed... Remember how Shizuru said that Tomoe was the young her? What if Shizuru also had something similar arranged for Mai?
Besides, like i said before, the 'hairstyle' of the shadow kissing Sergay is definitely not Arika's because it doesn't have the two braids, and it looks short like Mai's ...
LonelyWolf
2006-01-15, 13:43
...
After all where better to hide the real princess than in plain sight?
Makes perfectly good sense :uhoh:
chamelean75
2006-01-15, 14:10
How old is Sergei? I always assumed that he was mid 20's to late 20's but I could be wrong.
lone_wolf
2006-01-15, 15:00
How old is Sergei? I always assumed that he was mid 20's to late 20's but I could be wrong.
An article listed his age as 25.
--Lone Wolf
shikamarufoo
2006-01-15, 15:01
Boy Oh Boy....
Of all the frightening cliffhangers to leave the audience on... :upset:
Without giving away anything (watch for yourself, you'll hate her a lot more that way), if you do not already HATE Tomoe with homocidal fury before this episode, what she orders underlings in this episode to do to Arika-Chan will make you want to hang her like a fucking pinyata, beat her ass to the stone age with a nail-laden baseball-bat until she is crippled-and-crooked-and-deformed, and then put her FEET-FIRST through a rust-and-blunt-bladed Happy-Tree-Wood-Chipper. :mad:
If you don't hate her enough to kill her after this episode, you are not human. ;)
Exactly how I feel...What kind of mean people would leave a cliffhanger like that, especially with Arika?:mad:
Anyways I liked this episode and the plot is progressing better. I just hope they don't leave anymore cliffhangers like this.
kari-no-sugata
2006-01-15, 15:11
And Shizuru commenting about that Miyu was like Aswalds leader(Midori), that leads me to think that does Miyu have some connections to Aswalds? And if he does is she in friendly terms with them? And if she is then maybe they will allie them with Arika at some point and if that happens then what would Arika do? I doubt after that she wouldn't be with that good terms with Garderobe.
What Shizuru was saying in effect, is that there's things in the world that can surprise her (and Natsuki), such as Midori - and Shizuru was adding Miyu to the pile of (unpleasant) surprises. The world's a big place and has mysteries, sort of thing.
In the Japanese, I'm certain that Shizuru doesn't think there's any political or simialr connection between Miyu and Midori.
AssistantArinkoBully
2006-01-15, 15:13
If anything it'll be miya that takes the fall for Tomao. Remember Tomao asked Miya to do something for her. Tomao arranged for the thugs through Miya which means when the shit hits the fan for her she'll point the finger at Miya.
ZeusIrae
2006-01-15, 15:17
What I don't really understand is Miya's situation in this mess.What's the connection between her and Tomoe,they don't really look like friends.It's more like Tomoe giving orders and Miya obeying for an unknown and dark reason.
lone_wolf
2006-01-15, 15:18
If anything it'll be miya that takes the fall for Tomao. Remember Tomao asked Miya to do something for her. Tomao arranged for the thugs through Miya which means when the shit hits the fan for her she'll point the finger at Miya.
It's Tomoe not Tomao. :heh:
--Lone Wolf
lone_wolf
2006-01-15, 15:19
What I don't really understand is Miya's situation in this mess.What's the connection between her and Tomoe,they don't really look like friends.It's more like Tomoe giving orders and Miya obeying for an unknown and dark reason.
Blackmail? The possibilities are endless.
--Lone Wolf
I liked this weeks episode, I guess we know who the real princess is now? :)
Anime Adoru
2006-01-15, 16:26
I liked this weeks episode, I guess we know who the real princess is now? :)
Hmm... here are some of the possible consequences:
Arika gets to marry Nagi to stop the war from escalating...
Arika gets Tomoe as her otome since Tomoe is a top otome and from Windbloom...
Now, that sounds plausible...
ChainLegacy
2006-01-15, 16:41
I really liked this episode. I'm still not too sure about Arika = princess yet, though. Doesn't seem likely that the 'truth' would be revealed to early. Damn, where's Mai? Gettin' tired of waiting. :(
chaos_alfa
2006-01-15, 17:03
didn't yohko said that if a otome had sex whith a male her nanomachines would dissolve becaus of the Y-chromosomes and that's wy tomao send those humans after het to rape her and get the Sapphire of the Azure Sky?
deathsvengeance
2006-01-15, 17:06
ooo this was an exciting episode :o I wonder what will happen from here? The preview didn't really give away anything lol
Yazakura
2006-01-15, 17:09
Aww...Nina openly admitted to Eristen that Arika made her worry all the time (Even though it WAS by accident). Do any shoujo ai fans hope for the Arika/Nina pairing to get popular in the fanodom?
kazekiri
2006-01-15, 17:14
I liked this weeks episode, I guess we know who the real princess is now? :) This is Sunrise, the revelation may be another bit of misdirection intended to give us all migranes. In fact, I'll be disappointed if they revealed something this big only halfway through the series.
monstert
2006-01-15, 17:18
did yohko not said that if a otome had sex whith a male her nanomachines would dissolve becaus of the Y-chromosomes and that's wy tomao send those humans after het to rape her and get the Sapphire of the Azure Sky? From the sub I saw, they didn't mention Arika's gem. I don't think they know about it. Getting her to be expulsed is probably their only intention. That, and having their way with her, obviously.
I am probably starting to sound like a broken record but I didn't like this episode either. Arika is stilll among the most annoying anime characters even and the preview made the cliffhanger in the end somewhat pointless...not that anyone probably has any illusions that something really bad may happen to a main character in this show. Thanks to Erstin Arika had a brainstorm and finally figured out that it is possible to be Otome for a tiem and then marry and lead another life, well better late than never. :) Somehow Sergey found someone who knew about the princess although it makes absolutely no sense for that woman to be silent for so many years and then tell the truth to him.
Haruka is still just a comic relief which gets on my nerves. Ar least Nagi seems ready with his evil masterplan, if only there was a way the series to end with his success and Arika's painful death...
I want the war to really begin as soon as possible and to involve a lot of the known characters. Who cares that some Otomes we have never seen before fight?
* Arika gets to marry Nagi to stop the war from escalating...
* Arika gets Tomoe as her otome since Tomoe is a top otome and from Windbloom...
With things as they currently stand, both are a fate worse than death.
From the sub I saw, they didn't mention Arika's gem.
They mentioned a 'privilege of being an Otome' though - which as well as virginity could quite easily be the Sapphire (as well as the whole deal with the camera) Tomoe heard the entire conversation about the GEM, and how much it signifies and means to Arika - plus the focus was also very much on the pendant in the closing frames. Personally I feel that is more what Tomoe would be after and eveything else is just additional sideline 'damage'.
In regards to the 'rape' though: we have definitely not been given a reason that would compel Tomoe to order such a thing - 'fearing Arika' or 'Shizuru' or whatever - no, not unless she's already demented. That's waaaaay past just ''hating'' Arika - that, as a woman especially, is something you wouldn't wish on even your worst enemy. So if it turns out next episode that was what she ordered then I'm kinda clueless about it all. Sunrise will really have to give much better reasons otherwise Tomoe just becomes a villain-of-the-shallow-kind. As someone else mentioned - the only way it could even make sense is if Tomoe herself has had some form of disturbing encounter - if only to make sense of why she has such an awful mindset. Miya though, I'm not even going to start...
Aww...Nina openly admitted to Eristen that Arika made her worry all the time (Even though it WAS by accident). Do any shoujo ai fans hope for the Arika/Nina pairing to get popular in the fanodom?
I can't see it happening because of the Sergay ''issues'' - they'd have a lot to work through :heh:
It was a sweet moment though - Nina has come across very well in the last several episodes.
I want the war to really begin as soon as possible and to involve a lot of the known characters. Who cares that some Otomes we have never seen before fight?
Yeah I had some similar problems with the episode as well. As I put in another thread I'd prefer to follow the Otome world as a whole rather than the esculation of Arika's life - but such is the basis of the show...
Yeah I had some similar problems with the episode as well. As I put in another thread I'd rather follow the Otome world as a whole rather than the esculation of Arika's life - but such is the basis of the show...
I'd rather follow anything in the Otome world but Arika's life...even Shizuru's life would be more interesting to me. :)
In regards to the 'rape' though: we have definitely not been given a reason that would compel Tomoe to order such a thing - 'fearing Arika' or 'Shizuru' or whatever - no, not unless she's already demented. That's waaaaay past just ''hating'' Arika - that, as a woman especially, is something you wouldn't wish on even your worst enemy.
Sure there is a reason - she is freaking crazy. You did see the mad villain smile of hers in this episode, right? Too bad that the character who hates Arika isn't developed too well but what can we do...
demon_god04
2006-01-15, 17:47
Somehow Sergey found someone who knew about the princess although it makes absolutely no sense for that woman to be silent for so many years and then tell the truth to him.
Acually it makes sense why she kept her mouth shut. What usually happens to a kingdom when the king, queen and heir are dead/whereabouts unknown? Civil war between the officials in power to determine a ruler. Even say they can avoid a civil war there will be a huge reaction from the people knowing that the royal family got assasinated. Most likely the current Mashiro was found and shoved on the throne to alleviate the peoples fears and prevent a power struggle.
Do any shoujo ai fans hope for the Arika/Nina pairing to get popular in the fanodom?
x.x ... blasphemy. That will never happen. Ever. And as always, its not just what I want, but a sensible take on things. I'm tired as hell and so could not explain further even if I wanted to.
It was a sweet moment though - Nina has come across very well in the last several episodes.
So I wasn't mashing my head into a brick wall with all those posts in the last two weeks? Thank heavens.
Anyway, I'll try to think up some good points for a post while sleeping. G' night. Oh, and it does happen.
Why did she tell Sergey then? After all, he might now start a civil war in the name of queen Arika. :)
Tremalkinger
2006-01-15, 17:59
So... what's everyone's thoughts on Erstin at the moment? Is she in cahoots with Tomoe or not?
It looked an awful lot like Sunrise was giving the smallest association between the two of them during the big talk scene... just enough so when we go back knowing that Erstin is being evil now that we'd smack our foreheads. Or maybe they're giving us that small bit to lead us into thinking like that, but its really nothing. Or maybe I'm just confusing myself.
I feel like Vizzini from The Princess Bride.
Inconceivable!
demon_god04
2006-01-15, 18:04
Maybe she recognized Sergay as the little youngster that was always around ogling Rena:heh: Or she doesnt want the secret to die with her -.- Windbloom seems more stable right now then opposed to right after the attack 14 years ago.
I'd rather follow anything in the Otome world but Arika's life...even Shizuru's life would be more interesting to me. :)
Awww.
:)
Sure there is a reason - she is freaking crazy. You did see the mad villain smile of hers in this episode, right? Too bad that the character who hates Arika isn't developed too well but what can we do...
Yeah but being 'crazy' isn't a good enough reason for me. Maybe I demand too much. This silly evil smile thing just proves the point - we're supposed to hate Tomoe - Otome is falling to the goodies and baddies trend. One of things I particularly liked about HiME was even those who ''flipped'' etc at least had their own form of disturbed POV - of why they do what they do. Even ''crazy'' people have their own form of ''logic''. This isn't working in the same way, so what if Tomoe absolutely adores Shizuru - it's almost like Sunrise is piling too much on the character without establishing her. And that seems a shame because there is definitely potential in the character.
Meh, and the worst thing is that Otome will no doubt fall to a version of poetic justice - of course Tomoe will be eventually punished - and with the way it is going, that will be without any additional insight into her character outside being 'a loon'. Or better yet, Tomoe will be revealed as working for Schwartz - just so they can explain her root of 'evilness' like that. Which would sum up the whole cop out.
So I wasn't mashing my head into a brick wall with all those posts in the last two weeks? Thank heavens.
I'm .... going to just accept you may have been right about Nina....as I write this anyway. :)
So... what's everyone's thoughts on Erstin at the moment? Is she in cahoots with Tomoe or not?
It looked an awful lot like Sunrise was giving the smallest association between the two of them during the big talk scene... just enough so when we go back knowing that Erstin is being evil now that we'd smack our foreheads. Or maybe they're giving us that small bit to lead us into thinking like that, but its really nothing. Or maybe I'm just confusing myself.
It would work only: Erstin got so sick during the hike - so unless 1) she faked it 2) she knew she'd fall ill but went ahead with the plan anyway 3) Tomoe did a mini betrayal but Erstin/Tomoe are still on the same page.
I don't think she is, but hey, it would be a nasty twist.
Tremalkinger
2006-01-15, 18:26
So I wasn't mashing my head into a brick wall with all those posts in the last two weeks? Thank heavens.
Two weeks? Give yourself some credit... you've been hammering away at that since nearly the show's inception. I strongly disagreed for most of the series, but now I'm with you. So, kudos.
Yeah but being 'crazy' isn't a good enough reason for me. Maybe I demand too much. This silly evil smile thing just proves the point - we're supposed to hate Tomoe - Otome is falling to the goodies and baddies trend. One of things I particularly liked about HiME was even those who ''flipped'' etc at least had their own form of disturbed POV - of why they do what they do. Even ''crazy'' people have their own form of ''logic''. This isn't working in the same way, so what if Tomoe absolutely adores Shizuru - it's almost like Sunrise is piling too much on the character without establishing her. And that seems a shame because there is definitely potential in the character.
In a way, I'm with you on this. But I think that, yes, you are asking too much. Not every villian will be a masterpiece. Tomoe is quite, well, generic. That's not a tragety in and of itself, because she's only a small part of the plot. I guess this just makes me savor the well written villians all the more.
I guess MO's Tomoe is about the same as MH's Shizuru. Both could use a great deal more development and justification. Shizuru, though, was at least elegant when she went crazy. Tomoe is just sadistic.
It would work only: Erstin got so sick during the hike - so unless 1) she faked it 2) she knew she'd fall ill but went ahead with the plan anyway 3) Tomoe did a mini betrayal but Erstin/Tomoe are still on the same page.
I don't think she is, but hey, it would be a nasty twist.
Yeah, I haven't really given it enough serious thought to consider it a 'theory'. But every little detail of that scene screamed of an Erstin betrayal to me, and the idea was the farthest thing from my mind when I started up episode.
Twould be nasty nasty though. Especially since I like Erstin quite a bit.
Ronin Aquila
2006-01-15, 21:01
If I'm scraping at straws (which I'll do, just once more, just for the sake of being suicidal on this forum), ''she'' instructs them to play around with Arika - is it more likely Miya instructs her own lackey's? And of course Tomoe would ask Miya, but that doesn't exactly bode well for Miya's set of morals either - and she's meant to be sane.
If that is the case, this (http://happytreefriends.atomfilms.com/watch_episodes/flash/play.asp?episode=eye) is what I would like to happen to Miya. :mad:
ArchDragon
2006-01-15, 21:15
Yeah, I haven't really given it enough serious thought to consider it a 'theory'. But every little detail of that scene screamed of an Erstin betrayal to me, and the idea was the farthest thing from my mind when I started up episode.
Twould be nasty nasty though. Especially since I like Erstin quite a bit.
Nah, I don't think Erstin has anything to do with Tomoe.
There's no way you can "arrange" a snake bite, knowing you'll get sick since the catalyst injector has been messed with, and still hope to survive in the end.
Even Miya won't go ahead with such an idiotic suicidal plan.
bluemist
2006-01-15, 21:31
I only thought Tomoe was smirking because she already found Arika (talking to Erstin), and she will be following Arika around so that the goons will know when and where to strike...
<- Erstin-defensive.
Poor Arika. The world is about to fall apart for her.
I guess, “Arika cries” is an understatement.
Arika, the Queen, but does not want to be one. Arika, an otome’s daughter, but is not. Arika’s grandmother... Just who is the woman that Arika has so much faith in?
Sergey, originally protecting and helping Arika because she's Rena's daughter... What will you do now, Sergey? Sell Arika to Nagi so that he can control the world?
What onus is there on Sergey to do anything for Arika, other than, perhaps, because he just likes her? Will her betray Nagi to protect her?
Arika’s foundation is shallow and fragile. Never mind what the ruffians will do to her, finding out the the truth about her heritage and what Sergey is really up to might just have a worse effect on her psyche.
wombatlord
2006-01-15, 22:06
So... what's everyone's thoughts on Erstin at the moment? Is she in cahoots with Tomoe or not?
It looked an awful lot like Sunrise was giving the smallest association between the two of them during the big talk scene... just enough so when we go back knowing that Erstin is being evil now that we'd smack our foreheads. Or maybe they're giving us that small bit to lead us into thinking like that, but its really nothing. Or maybe I'm just confusing myself.
I feel like Vizzini from The Princess Bride.
Inconceivable!
Here's what happened:
Tomoe has been trailing mopey Arika,looking for a weak spot to attack.
She listens in on Erstin and Arika's chat and learns:
1) Arika is in luuuuuuuuvvvvvvvv with Sergei.
2) Arika has Windbloom's meister gem set.
She already knows, I think, that Arika claims to be the daughter of an Otome.
We know that Tomoe is Windbloom's Otome candidate. Arika is not only some punk from nowhere now, she has something which I expect Tomoe considers to be her right to possess when she becomes a Meister.
She therefore instructs Miya to send her boyfriend and his minions to deal with Arika, before Arika can muscle in and take what Tomoe no doubt sees as her rightful place as Otome of Windbloom.
The minions brought a camera--what that says to me is that they plan to basically strip her and take photos to humiliate her and to make her in violation of the 'keep clothing on in front of outsiders' rule. They seem to have decided raping her along witht hat is fine. I expect they're supposed to take the meister gem set too.
Erstin is innocent of conspiracy with Tomoe. But...
I think Erstin has noticed Nina's Daddy Complex and basically hopes to set up Arika and Sergei so she can have Nina for herself. :)
ArchDragon
2006-01-15, 22:21
Here's what happened:
Tomoe has been trailing mopey Arika,looking for a weak spot to attack.
She listens in on Erstin and Arika's chat and learns:
1) Arika is in luuuuuuuuvvvvvvvv with Sergei.
2) Arika has Windbloom's meister gem set.
She already knows, I think, that Arika claims to be the daughter of an Otome.
We know that Tomoe is Windbloom's Otome candidate. Arika is not only some punk from nowhere now, she has something which I expect Tomoe considers to be her right to possess when she becomes a Meister.
She therefore instructs Miya to send her boyfriend and his minions to deal with Arika, before Arika can muscle in and take what Tomoe no doubt sees as her rightful place as Otome of Windbloom.
The minions brought a camera--what that says to me is that they plan to basically strip her and take photos to humiliate her and to make her in violation of the 'keep clothing on in front of outsiders' rule. They seem to have decided raping her along witht hat is fine. I expect they're supposed to take the meister gem set too.
I honestly don't think Tomoe gives a damn about Arika's gem, I'm sure Windbloom/Garderobe has other gem sets ready in case she graduated.
Besides, if she get caught having it in her possession, she'll be grilled well-done by the pillars.
Remember, Tomoe always tried to keep her hands "clean".
As far as the photos concerned, it's just to humiliate Arika even further, and give those thugs extra rewards for their deeds.
One of them even mentioned that those pictures will sell for a high price.
Besides, what school would expel anyone for getting stripped and photographed against her will?
Getting Arika raped, however, will make her enrollment in Garderobe totally pointless.
-----------------------------------------------
Erstin is innocent of conspiracy with Tomoe. But...
I think Erstin has noticed Nina's Daddy Complex and basically hopes to set up Arika and Sergei so she can have Nina for herself. :)
It's Erstin, I don't think she thinks that far.
But I agree 100% that she's innocent as far as Tomoe is concerned.
TruongDinh
2006-01-16, 00:05
I'm confused.... didn't Arika told Miyu her grandmother pass away? I just got a new computer and give my cousin the old one so I don't have the last 13 eps. Maybe I imagined Arika said her grandmother died.
I'm confused.... didn't Arika told Miyu her grandmother pass away? I just got a new computer and give my cousin the old one so I don't have the last 13 eps. Maybe I imagined Arika said her grandmother died.
Thought that was cleared up in the 1st few episodes...
The whole how Arika is the queen confuses me, I kinda figured it was but I don't understand it at all just from this episode. ~ Rena's daughter was given to that woman we saw? So is Nina her daughter or something or maybe Mashiro (they are all connected somehow anyway)? And Arika is the real queens daughter I guess...or did Rena and the king have Arika?
Anyway, can someone explain all that stuff that was dropped in the last maybe 5 minutes of this episode?
In a way, I'm with you on this. But I think that, yes, you are asking too much. Not every villian will be a masterpiece. Tomoe is quite, well, generic. That's not a tragety in and of itself, because she's only a small part of the plot. I guess this just makes me savor the well written villians all the more.
I guess MO's Tomoe is about the same as MH's Shizuru. Both could use a great deal more development and justification. Shizuru, though, was at least elegant when she went crazy. Tomoe is just sadistic.
I think that is the sort of warped intention. But to me, MH Shizuru 'flipped' at a very specific moment, made worse through a combination of complex (and interesting) emotional problems. She also ended so incredibly popular that her 'lack of development' up until the last 8 episodes was kinda excused. You can piece together enough about Shizuru to come up with a ‘’full’’ character (hence why so many people like her and why they can write so much on her) That could still happen with Tomoe I suppose – but anyway, Shizuru was never evil, baby!
Tomoe has started out crazy and just got worse. Occasionally they'll throw some kawaii-looks in there - those moments may remind me of MH Shizuru - but really, they don't create enough motive or hurt - nor does fear of losing Coral Place 2 - there isn't enough method to the madness.
I'd say she would be generic if it wasn't for the Shizuru thing and the anti-male ideology she heavily promotes. And Rie Tanaka voicing her has no bearing whatsoever on my views either….. no …… not one tiny bit :uhoh:
If that is the case, this is what I would like to happen to Miya.
Indeed…I won’t be surprised at all if Miya ends up taking the wrap for everything…she doesn’t seem the sharpest hook in the tacklebox.
I honestly don't think Tomoe gives a damn about Arika's gem, I'm sure Windbloom/Garderobe has other gem sets ready in case she graduated.
I don’t think she necessarily would want it for herself – just so Arika doesn’t have it. The Sapphire is obviously ‘famous’ – but even more than that – it means a lot to Arika. It’s an easy way to 'hurt' the girl - let alone the fact the gems still have the Arika/Mashiro contract (although I doubt Tomoe knows of that….yet)
Besides, if she get caught having it in her possession, she'll be grilled well-done by the pillars.
Remember, Tomoe always tried to keep her hands "clean".
Well one good thing is that our disagreement on this won’t last too long hopefully. If the Sapphire is stolen, then Tomoe has it, I’m totally convinced on that. Being that the whole conversation Arika/Estin had was ABOUT Rena and the Sapphire then it’s too much of a coincidence for Tomoe to smile for random’s sake – and THEN – the episode to end with these shots:
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6897/sapphire00794xn.th.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sapphire00794xn.jpg)
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/9178/sapphire01093zj.th.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sapphire01093zj.jpg)
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/588/sapphire01298et.th.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sapphire01298et.jpg)
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3215/sapphire01306rv.th.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sapphire01306rv.jpg)
The hand is going just for the clothes? Maybe. But I kinda see a lot of focus on the Sapphire there, you really can’t see it? :confused:
And Tomoe isn’t a silly muppet – if she did get the Sapphire I doubt she’ll sleep in it and waft it around to any Tom, Dick or Harry. *looks at Arika*
shadowWizz
2006-01-16, 01:23
After watching this episode, this is what i think...
1- OMG...EEWWW
Arika and Sergey??? I'm crossing my fingers and hope that is just turns out that she was idolizing him.
2- Way to go Erstin
I'm begining to like her more after this episode. The way she spotted Arika's problem was too cool. Even Nina could not figure out what's wrong. Well and the hugging Nina scene just reminds me of Natsuki and Shizuru...
3-Queen???
Now with the "new" discovery, things are just going to get more confusing...
I'm guessing...
I still cannot believe that Arika is the Queen, anyway, even if she is, she would most probaly ask Mashiro to stay as the Queen... I'm guessing that Nina's the actual one and the gem must have got lost during some point of time and somehow landed with Arika
4-Tomoe is still a B****
Still threatening students and ploting nasty stuff in critical times. (well, we all need someone to hate) Just hope that nothing bad happens to Arika in the next episode.
Just need an outlet to rant all these thoughts... Sorry if you don't agree with me.
TruongDinh
2006-01-16, 01:26
Thought that was cleared up in the 1st few episodes...
Yeah sorry now I know what I thought wrong, I was thinking the old lady Sergey talked to claim to be Arika's grandmother and Sergey believed her..... My head doesn't pay much attention ever since Arika love Sergey in episode 12.
imperialmog
2006-01-16, 01:37
What would be real interesting is who is it that brings down Tomoe? Though I do get the feeling that the "Dark Otome" is her once she goes to the dark side of the schwartz.
Maybe Arika instead will wind up going with Erstin, there has been a few hints towards that pairing.
Metdragoid
2006-01-16, 02:03
Well I dont't believe that Arika and Erstin would go against each others, but if that would happen it sure would be interesting turn of events.
About the preview. That blond haired kid who we have seen now for few times seemed to be with that old lady who told Sergey about the queen. And because of this it leads me to believe that there definately is something more to this queen story. So this leads me to one of my crazy theories that that blond haired kid would be queen. There would been someone who found the basket and took the kid out of it, but didn't know what the gem was and left it in the basket and left it to drift again and it somehow ended with Arika and her granny.
Well I dont't believe that Arika and Erstin would go against each others, but if that would happen it sure would be interesting turn of events.
If you were replying to imperialmog, I believe he meant Erstin/Arika yuri pairing, not dueling.:heh:
If that is the case, this (http://happytreefriends.atomfilms.com/watch_episodes/flash/play.asp?episode=eye) is what I would like to happen to Miya. :mad:
I love that Idea.:D Remember to do the same to Tomoe though.
Ok, if you don't mind a bit of profanity then you can continue reading, I've got a lot to say. (EDIT: So caught up I forgot the profanity. Damn it. :) )
Firstly, I must say I am a total fool when it comes to this topic. A complete and utter fool. I was being blind myself.. well, actually, deaf, but I'll explain. Erstin. There were a few suggestions that she was in-with Tomoe, and I cast them aside with firm belief in what I was saying was correct. I can now say, I should not have done. Now, I must say that I am watching these episodes with pretty damn good quality sound, and some people might not notice this, but I'm not sure how sound quality would affect it. I didn't see any other posts about this, so here goes.
Ok, you are probably wondering what the hell made me change my mind so fast, and why I am suddenly contradicting myself on a topic I thought I was entirely correct on. I think it is now safe to assume that Erstin is in with Tomoe, or has motives that coincide with those of Tomoe. Where did I get this from? Two words: "Gomen, Nina". I was listening very intenly through this episode, and it paid off. Why do these two words hold particular meaning? I mean, Erstin was hugging Nina and could have been mearly playful when she said them. But thats just it; they were not said.
In the scene there was a lot of background noise to this, as all dialogue can be considered background noise to these two words. Erstin didn't say them. She thought them. Now, most people will probably have caught on here, but just in case, I shall elaborate.
Ok, so it was Erstin that found Arika and got her talking, correct? And Tomoe turned up? Oh yes, but not to listen. I wondered originally how she could hope to hear anything from such a distance, but I realised, she wasn't trying to listen. She was checking up on Erstin. It is Erstin that convinces Arika to go on some wild goose chase with no real point, that just happens to lead her into the ending situation. It was Erstin's job to occupy Nina, who was the only person that knew of Arika's absence, and could have done anything. In fact, Nina would have been the perfect person to turn up in the ending scenes, because of lot of those guys would be waking up a few days later with amnesia.
Tomoe set the people up through Miya, and Erstin set Arika up to go straight through them, and then kept Nina occupied so she could not do anything. Understood?
I don't know what to think. I feel my slightly pathetic and optimistic hopes of a Nina and Erstin relationship, that didn't mix at all well with my clearly pessimistic and sensible hopes relating to every other aspect of the series, just died. I also feel overly sorry for Arika. Its a trap a person didn't have to be stupid to fall in. After all, you were set up by one of your friends, the friend that you never took seriously. That in itself is a grave mistake to make. It has made me respect Nina, but saw where her weakness lies. To occupy her, you just need to get personal. Then she is too busy getting embarrased and trying to avoid questions to think of anything else.
Right, a lot to say on that point, but heres the next one: Aswald is far from powerful. We saw, at least, I think we saw what exactly the black valley was. What is it? Not a whole lot to tell you the truth. They need all the tech they can find to support their minimalistic numbers. But, hope does come for them, Nagi, himself, said that if they got the technolodgy they were looking for, the tides would turn. So, what does this mean for the series now?
Aswald arn't a major competitor for Schwartz or Nagi and Smith. They lack almost everything one needs to run a military campain.
Uh.. what else.. ah.. my minds to caught up with the topic of Erstin. Damn, I didn't suspect anything from her, and I usually see up and comming betrayals a mile off. It really surprized me, and how subtly it was achieved. Two words, one thought. Very efficent, and I applaud Sunrise. Not on their decision though.
wombatlord
2006-01-16, 03:23
Ok, you are probably wondering what the hell made me change my mind so fast, and why I am suddenly contradicting myself on a topic I thought I was entirely correct on. I think it is now safe to assume that Erstin is in with Tomoe, or has motives that coincide with those of Tomoe. Where did I get this from? Two words: "Gomen, Nina". I was listening very intenly through this episode, and it paid off. Why do these two words hold particular meaning? I mean, Erstin was hugging Nina and could have been mearly playful when she said them. But thats just it; they were not said.
You completely misinterpreted the scene. Rather than assuming Erstin, agent of Tomoe, it's a lot easier to assume she's keeping Nina busy so that Arika can go see Sergei without Nina interrupting it. And she's not telling Nina anything because she can reasonably expect Nina wouldn't appreciate Arika hitting on her Dad.
I simply can't imagine Erstin betraying Arika after what happened in 9-10, which also made it clear that Tomoe was quite willing to smack them both down.
So I think you basically misinterpreted the scene. (And Sunrise probably wanted people to.)
I want Irina X Anyone....
wombatlord
2006-01-16, 04:01
I want Irina X Anyone....
Irinia clearly grows up to become Wasyuu and chase Tenchi...
Wow. I'm amazed at the amount of people believing that Erstin is innocent.
Erstin wants Nina all to herself. She sees Arika as a threat to her having Nina, so she struck up a deal with Tomoe.
I have to agree with Preston's comment about her thinking her apology. She knew what she did was betraying Nina's trust and doing something that could truly hurt her. Of course, when you are really in love with someone, you usually don't think too straight when making certain decisions.
Anyways, it really looks like Erstin struck up a deal with Tomoe to make sure Arika can no longer be an Otome and attend the school.
Is it just me, or is this show getting worse and worse? It seems to have peeked at episode 7 (which was a completely awesome episode, btw) and gone straight downhill from there.
What the heck is with her falling in love with that old guy?! That was one issue I thought I wasn't going to have to worry about after getting to know the main character. I wish they wouldn't change the protagonist's personality in the middle of the show. *sigh... i didn't even finish the latest episode, so disgusting...
Kamui4356
2006-01-16, 05:04
Is it just me, or is this show getting worse and worse? It seems to have peeked at episode 7 (which was a completely awesome episode, btw) and gone straight downhill from there.
What the heck is with her falling in love with that old guy?! That was one issue I thought I wasn't going to have to worry about after getting to know the main character. I wish they wouldn't change the protagonist's personality in the middle of the show. *sigh... i didn't even finish the latest episode, so disgusting...
Wrong place, there's a whole forum for this series. Well, half a forum, since it covers My HiME too.:heh:
Though, in the show's defense; Arika even says it's not like her, so they're not just doing whatever they feel like with the characters.
Personally I don't like that development either. I just hope Serge isn't the one who saves her next ep, since that'll increase her affections, but from the preview that is what it looks like...
Irinia clearly grows up to become Wasyuu and chase Tenchi...
I've been waiting for someone to draw that parallel... Washuu is her mother.
Is it just me, or is this show getting worse and worse? It seems to have peeked at episode 7 (which was a completely awesome episode, btw) and gone straight downhill from there.
What the heck is with her falling in love with that old guy?! That was one issue I thought I wasn't going to have to worry about after getting to know the main character. I wish they wouldn't change the protagonist's personality in the middle of the show. *sigh... i didn't even finish the latest episode, so disgusting...
Besides this being at the wrong section, its your loss if you let such trival(sp?) matters affect how you watch the show.
Especially one such as MO.
Wrong place, there's a whole forum for this series. Well, half a forum, since it covers My HiME too.:heh:
Ah, didn't realize.
Anyways...
The whole latest episode seemed wrong, everything is all of the sudden angsty and annoying. They should just stick with action and comedy, nothing else suits it. (and the anime would have been sooo much better if that strange girl hadn't shown up in ep8 and taken off their sapphire jewels for them... i can't stand it when a perfectly good plot delopment is rendered null)
Besides this being at the wrong section, its your loss if you let such trival(sp?) matters affect how you watch the show.
Especially one such as MO.
Woa, my thread has suddenly been popped into another thread on the correct forum.
It's hardly a trivial matter if its ruining the main character. (i've been known to stop watching an anime over much lesser offenses)
Ok, you are probably wondering what the hell made me change my mind so fast, and why I am suddenly contradicting myself on a topic I thought I was entirely correct on. I think it is now safe to assume that Erstin is in with Tomoe, or has motives that coincide with those of Tomoe. Where did I get this from? Two words: "Gomen, Nina". I was listening very intenly through this episode, and it paid off. Why do these two words hold particular meaning? I mean, Erstin was hugging Nina and could have been mearly playful when she said them. But thats just it; they were not said.
You completely misinterpreted the scene. Rather than assuming Erstin, agent of Tomoe, it's a lot easier to assume she's keeping Nina busy so that Arika can go see Sergei without Nina interrupting it. And she's not telling Nina anything because she can reasonably expect Nina wouldn't appreciate Arika hitting on her Dad.
I simply can't imagine Erstin betraying Arika after what happened in 9-10, which also made it clear that Tomoe was quite willing to smack them both down.
So I think you basically misinterpreted the scene. (And Sunrise probably wanted people to.)
Actually, both of you have a point: I have not watched it yet though (taking forver to DL the sub...), so I cant judge what kind of meaning those 2 words have to it.
The whole latest episode seemed wrong, everything is all of the sudden angsty and annoying. They should just stick with action and comedy, nothing else suits it. (and the anime would have been sooo much better if that strange girl hadn't shown up in ep8 and taken off their sapphire jewels for them... i can't stand it when a perfectly good plot delopment is rendered null)
You rather that, the entire school finds out Arika is using/used a meister gem, and then what, Arika becomes an instant graduate, and kick ass?
Say...what kind of development would that be?:eyebrow:
Paracelsus
2006-01-16, 05:58
Tomoe is nothing but a bi***. That's all I have to say about episode 14.
Now we'll have to wait a lot before someone will return the pendant to Arika <_<
wombatlord
2006-01-16, 06:11
I've been waiting for someone to draw that parallel... Washuu is her mother.
To be precise, she looks like the love child of Wasyuu and Negi from Negima.
ZeusIrae
2006-01-16, 06:14
I really wonder what kind of brainwashing "grandma" did to arika,it's frigntening.
"no,grandma didn't teach me":eyebrow: Sometimes I wonder if Arika isn't manipulated by a shadow organization.That would be intresting.
Perhaps Arika is experiment of Smith&co,when you think about it since arika is here she has brought nothing but chaos.
I really wonder what kind of brainwashing "grandma" did to arika,it's frigntening.
"no,grandma didn't teach me":eyebrow: Sometimes I wonder if Arika isn't manipulated by a shadow organization.That would be intresting.
Perhaps Arika is experiment of Smith&co,when you think about it since arika is here she has brought nothing but chaos.
You should add the point that Miyu sees Arika with golden hair....seeing how Alyssa in MH had that as well, and she was an artificial Hime made by Sears foundation for their dark purposes.
You rather that, the entire school finds out Arika is using/used a meister gem, and then what, Arika becomes an instant graduate, and kick ass?
Say...what kind of development would that be?:eyebrow:
I think that would be much better than all the random filler they're throwing out every week :rolleyes:
Besides, they could have drawn out her keeping the meister gem a secret for many (entertaining) episodes... and from then on there would have been infinite interesting possibilities. It's much better to have a main character who's special in some way, no? :p
Anh_Minh
2006-01-16, 07:46
Wow. I'm amazed at the amount of people believing that Erstin is innocent.
Erstin wants Nina all to herself. She sees Arika as a threat to her having Nina, so she struck up a deal with Tomoe.
I have to agree with Preston's comment about her thinking her apology. She knew what she did was betraying Nina's trust and doing something that could truly hurt her. Of course, when you are really in love with someone, you usually don't think too straight when making certain decisions.
Anyways, it really looks like Erstin struck up a deal with Tomoe to make sure Arika can no longer be an Otome and attend the school.
I think she "betrayed" Nina by giving her a shot at becoming "the most important girl in Sergey's life", not by hurting her indirectly through Arika. If anything, she'd rationalize hurting Arika as a way to help Nina, not a betrayal (even though it would be.)
Just watched finish episode 14.
Tome - definated as evil/B***hy as the posts described.:heh:
Erstin-I personally think she's just allowing Arika to confirm her feelings with Sergey while distracting Nina, and not in it with Tomoe.
Nina-definately softening up towards Nina. Aww, she cares.:D (though it might be because she thinks Arika is Rena's daughter:upset: )
Sergey-somehow, I sense whatever his past was, is going to show again. (the north hound nickname, plus his eye expressions....feels like he's some seriously determinded warrior or something).
Plus...from the preview, looks like we're going to get genki Arinko-chan back!;)
...would hardcore Sergay fans (are there any?) write any detailed analyses defending the man?
Yes there are, I am one. I'm basically almost done a Sergey costume for convention season this year.
However as of episode 14, he doesn't have to be defended for anything. He's been nothing but an upstanding guy so far.
Tremalkinger
2006-01-16, 09:25
Yes there are, I am one. I'm basically almost done a Sergey costume for convention season this year.
However as of episode 14, he doesn't have to be defended for anything. He's been nothing but an upstanding guy so far.
I wouldn't go so far as to say 'upstanding', but yeah, he's been a pretty guy.
The biggest problem is, a lot of people aren't liking the whole Arika/Sergey pairing that Sunrise is shoving down our throats, but the are blaming Sergey for it... quite irrationally, at that. The blame lies entirely with Arika.
But I'm still holding out for an artificial cause for all this nonsense. Episode 15 should clear things up one way or another, in any case.
The biggest problem is, a lot of people aren't liking the whole Arika/Sergey pairing that Sunrise is shoving down our throats, but the are blaming Sergey for it... quite irrationally, at that. The blame lies entirely with Arika.
*everyone chanting like in South Park the movie*'Blame Canad...", oops I mean "Blame Arika! Blame Arika!" :heh:
I think I would have been a really happy guy if Arika's only bad feature was her stupid teenage crush.
BTW, I think that Erstin allying with Tomoe to get rid of Arika would be a really nice twist but I don't think that's the case.
Yea, leave Erstin alone...she suffered enough at the field trip.:(
velocity7
2006-01-16, 09:49
I'll agree there needs to be more action in this anime, but definitely this episode...was actually what I was waiting for. More of the dark and fall into the gutter-type stuff. I'm not taking too well to Arika's liking of Sergay (doesn't make sense to me other than a Sakura -> Yukito thing), and I see Mashiro is still pissed off from before. More angst and drama fellas! :)
Looking forward to hopefully more of the stuff revolving around countries, political stuff, etc. and less of the clichés that were present in Mai-HiME close to the end of that series.
PastPrime
2006-01-16, 09:56
*everyone chanting like in South Park the movie*'Blame Canad...", oops I mean "Blame Arika! Blame Arika!" :heh:
I think I would have been a really happy guy if Arika's only bad feature was her stupid teenage crush.
BTW, I think that Erstin allying with Tomoe to get rid of Arika would be a really nice twist but I don't think that's the case.
If anything, Erstin may think that by getting Arika paired up with Sergey she gets rid of both the people standing between her and Nina.
Natsuki says it herself! There may be a third faction!
Erstin may very well be a part of that third faction working independently of the other two.
In fact she may even be considered a hindrance by the other two and this is why her equipment was sabotaged along with Arika’s.
Erstin knows a bit too much not to be a major player and I feel that she did indeed set Arika up.
Whether or not she is in cahoots with Tomoe & Miya is anybody’s guess, but keep this in mind. Even though she may be working with them, betrayal is commonplace in this series, and any chance to eliminate a rival will be taken!
I've seen nothing to suggest that Erstin has ulterior motives. Even her knowledge is common as anyone with access to a library could find out the history of Arika's GEM. Talk about the wildest of speculations. :heh:
The biggest problem is, a lot of people aren't liking the whole Arika/Sergey pairing that Sunrise is shoving down our throats, but the are blaming Sergey for it... quite irrationally, at that. The blame lies entirely with Arika.
Hey! We can't blame Arika for everything! I mean, Sergey is a hot example of prime man. :D Plus Arika secretly hates Nina and wants to steal her man, even if it is a guy more then twice her age.
All joking aside, though, Sergey won't return Arika's feelings. I still cite my example of the Sakura/Yuki crush and the way it was handled in Cardcaptor Sakura. And that was a show for little girls, that showed a little girl crushing on a (relative to them) old guy.
If Sergey does decide to take a taste, well I'm just going to hurl myself from a 40th floor window, because as it stands, Sergey is my hero.
Other issues on the forum:
Preston: I like your idea that Arika clothless in public taints her honour in some way, and that procludes her from being an Otome. I know Fushigi Yuugi touched ont he whole rape issue, but FY was a hell of a lot heavier then MO. Perhaps I just don't want to think of Arika (or anyone) being abused so fully. I mean, rape is funny in an "Aristocrats" joke, but not when it actually happens. An Otome is supposed to be a well respected and totoally prestigious character. Though Arika didn't ask to be abused, she did show a lack of responsibility getting into a back alley and in contact with ruffians. Though I still expect they'd be prosecuted and she's not responsible for thier behavior, she is responsible for her own. She perhaps left Garderobe without permission and is in a dark alley? That's her fault she got there. Harsh, but Garderobe may hold that against her.
There's also the fact that Sunrise has lead us towards things that havn't happened. Like the preview before the episode all about Akane and Kazu-kun. The preview made it look like she went batshit nuts, took a shot at Shizuru, and fled to cause the apocalypse with stolen Otome technology. When it was actually seen, she did none of these things, someone else took a shot at someone near Shizuru, and Akane wasn't fleeing she was attacking a slave. The whole "about to be raped" and next week's get-some-Sergey events can't be taken at face value, because Sunrise knows how to make us all freak out like this by teasing us with "creativly edited" previews and lead-up imagery.
She may in fact get raped, and have to deal with it, or she may not and just think she's lost the ability, like Yui-chan in Fushigi Yuugi. Or nothing could happen and Sergey could show up and beat the tar out of the guys. The reason I loved Mai HiME was because it was impossible to call what happened next, and MO is living up to that.
Oberon: I agree with the idea of a Comedy Shield protecting Haruka after she fell from a cliff (much like the Cyote is immortal in his persuits of the Roadrunner, if he encounters a fatal force in a comedic way, he's resurected [like the Highlander immortals have the "shock of a violet death", Cyote and Haruka have the "shock of an embarassing death" and are resurected to try and die with honour]) But I digress.
This also brings me to the point of the nanomachine powers when the Otome is not in "battle mode" or wearing thier robe. It was said on the hike that the machines protect from snake venom, so I expect that thier healing powers are on full-time, 24/7 (because why would just the "anti-venom" program be running instead of all the healing abilities?). So it could be argued that Haruka's own nanomachines kept her from dying after the cliff.
As for Nina's hadoken to the royal guard: I could belive it as a chi attack, or the machines. She has been "battle trained" since she was little, and this had to include heavy martial arts. But, I also don't think an Otome would be totally defencless outside thier robe. They may have small-scale attacks to defend themselves. I really could go either-way on the offencive, but I fully belive the machines to have thier healing/defensive abilities activated 24/7.
Arika not fighting back: Arika is not Nina, and doesn't have the reflexive fighting skills. She also was clearly more afraid of "bad people up to no good" from her reaction in episode 1. She's also not herself, IE crazy self-doubt mood swings at the time. She was surprised. She was also in a 1:1 in episode one when she ran away, now she's in a 1:4. All things stacked, Arika isn't able to stop her panic. And I don't blame her one bit.
Colinization: We know they've been on that planet for 300+ years. And in the episode with the tentacle pool monster, they found a book with an eel that "they used to have back on Earth." Miyu may be the same character, as it has been said here that she's a robot, but all the human characters I'd belive are reincarnations from a destiny based on the HiME carnival.
North Hound: When they called Sergey the "North Hound", I imidiatly pictured the cloaked bleeding Sergey from Nina's flashbacks. I can't wait for details about that. Let the rumour mill start!
I believe Nightengale has already ascertained Sergey's secret identity (http://www.raoh.org/images/ryuga.jpg).
You completely misinterpreted the scene. Rather than assuming Erstin, agent of Tomoe, it's a lot easier to assume she's keeping Nina busy so that Arika can go see Sergei without Nina interrupting it. And she's not telling Nina anything because she can reasonably expect Nina wouldn't appreciate Arika hitting on her Dad.
I simply can't imagine Erstin betraying Arika after what happened in 9-10, which also made it clear that Tomoe was quite willing to smack them both down.
So I think you basically misinterpreted the scene. (And Sunrise probably wanted people to.)
Uh.. I'm misinterpreting things? You are allowing your emotions to blind you. Who was the character least likely to betray or cause harm to anyone? Erstin. A common story telling technique is to make people trust a person, to view them in a way that cannot be considered entirely serious. As a bit of fun, entertainment. Then you set them up as one of the biggest catalysts from a plot point of view. They betray their so-called friends, usually for a helpless and needless ideal.
Also, I'm not sure if you missed this, but the way it was thought. It wasn't a 'Hey, I'm just doing Arika a favour and having fun with you at the same time!' sort of tone, but a 'I feel bad for pulling you into this' sort of tone. Erstin knew something was going to happen to Arika, and that keeping Nina occupied would contribute to it happening.
I applaud Sunrise, they managed to drop a very sweet and well thought of character in it with just two words. That is art. Oh, and whereas I think certain things are meant to be misinterpreted, I don't think this is one of them.
Wow. I'm amazed at the amount of people believing that Erstin is innocent.
Erstin wants Nina all to herself. She sees Arika as a threat to her having Nina, so she struck up a deal with Tomoe.
I have to agree with Preston's comment about her thinking her apology. She knew what she did was betraying Nina's trust and doing something that could truly hurt her. Of course, when you are really in love with someone, you usually don't think too straight when making certain decisions.
Anyways, it really looks like Erstin struck up a deal with Tomoe to make sure Arika can no longer be an Otome and attend the school.
Oh, I'd personally love to believe that Erstin is entirely innocent and just wants a bit of fun time with Nina alone. However, the curse of a pessimist prevents me from doing so.
A nice theory, hadn't thought of that.. but don't think it fits either. I don't think Erstin is the type of person to view other people as competition for ones love as Nina and Arika do, I think she is more mature than that.. and more intelligent than we think.. in that devious kind of way. I also wouldn't view Arika as competition for Nina's love if I knew that she loved Sergei. In fact, if I was that kind of person, I would be pleased? Why? Because it would create a rift between the two, and push them apart, leaving more room for me to 'get in there'.
It wasn't just the fact that it was thought, as soon as I realised that I felt my heart sink, and the tone made it worse. It wasn't a playful tone. It was a dire tone. Erstin was going to cause, or contribute to something bad.
Perhaps I emphasised the deal with Tomoe a little to much. If there was one, I don't think it holds much more than the Nagi and Smith agreement.
Is it just me, or is this show getting worse and worse? It seems to have peeked at episode 7 (which was a completely awesome episode, btw) and gone straight downhill from there.
What the heck is with her falling in love with that old guy?! That was one issue I thought I wasn't going to have to worry about after getting to know the main character. I wish they wouldn't change the protagonist's personality in the middle of the show. *sigh... i didn't even finish the latest episode, so disgusting...
You, my friend, are making it worse for yourself. I've had enough of posts like these on IMDb's Underworld 2 board. And yes, it is just you. I feel that the series is getting better. It is about to peak as the battle starts. In the words of Nagi, it has begun.
Oh, and in regards to the second point, have you no clue? Young girls often end up having severly strong crushes on older men. I see nothing wrong with it, just so long as it is only a teenage crush. You people view this topic far to harshly. I'd post a reality check.. but can't be bothered.
Ah, didn't realize.
Anyways...
The whole latest episode seemed wrong, everything is all of the sudden angsty and annoying. They should just stick with action and comedy, nothing else suits it. (and the anime would have been sooo much better if that strange girl hadn't shown up in ep8 and taken off their sapphire jewels for them... i can't stand it when a perfectly good plot delopment is rendered null)
That girl's name is Miyu, by the way. And, may I point out something, this is a show about teenage girls. Enough said. It is going to get a bit angsty, look at the damn position they are in?
Unless the japanese are wild keen on Sergei and Arika, which I doubt, Sunrise won't go down that path. Neither will they stay on any path that reduces their japanese viewing figures and ratings.
Woa, my thread has suddenly been popped into another thread on the correct forum.
It's hardly a trivial matter if its ruining the main character. (i've been known to stop watching an anime over much lesser offenses)
Uh.. then you really take things far to seriously. I never really liked Arika, though I did find myself liking her a little more in post-7, pre-14 episodes. This series is one of great quality, and fantastic story. And it has shoujo-ai.. ;) letting Arika put you of the series is a little over the top. As she is bound to improve and forget her temporary crush on Sergei.. as long as her doesn't make it worse.
I think that would be much better than all the random filler they're throwing out every week :rolleyes:
I.... don't. At all. Really. No. :uhoh:
If anything, Erstin may think that by getting Arika paired up with Sergey she gets rid of both the people standing between her and Nina.
Put it that way.. and I almost start to believe you.. but the tone of the thought.. ah, I don't know. What will clear it up, however, is the reaction that Erstin shows to the news of what happened to Arika while she was 'occupying' Nina. I don't think she will be able to control her emotions as much as Tomoe can. And if she's innocent, she will probably follow Arika round apologising for a few episodes, cry about it, not be able to look either Arika or Nina in the eyes.. actually.. most of them, if not all, apply for both cases.. >.>
Preston: I like your idea that Arika clothless in public taints her honour in some way...
Now that I saw the sub I see less in my original idea. I remember them saying something like 'we can have fun with her, right?', which sounds a little strong for just striping her and taking photos, even though that in itself is pretty damn bad action, requiring a strong comment. Yet another thing we will have to wait until next episode to find out..
PastPrime
2006-01-16, 12:17
Well, I have thought that Arika and Nina reminded me of Alice and Sheila in Tweeny Witches. If Erstin is like Eva, then she will betray them.
Erstin knew something was going to happen to Arika, and that keeping Nina occupied would contribute to it happening.
Why? It's not as if Arika informed Nina where she was going or the plan demanded her to actually get to Sergey so that Nina would have a chance to intervene if she for some reason visited him at the same time. I think you are making too many assumptions. But as I said Erstin being a sort of evil character would be a cool twist. Anyway, I think it makes a lot more sense for Erstin just having some fun with Nina or keeping her busy in order to help Arika.
SoldierOfDarkness
2006-01-16, 13:20
Uh.. I'm misinterpreting things? You are allowing your emotions to blind you. Who was the character least likely to betray or cause harm to anyone? Erstin. A common story telling technique is to make people trust a person, to view them in a way that cannot be considered entirely serious. As a bit of fun, entertainment. Then you set them up as one of the biggest catalysts from a plot point of view. They betray their so-called friends, usually for a helpless and needless ideal.
I applaud Sunrise, they managed to drop a very sweet and well thought of character in it with just two words. That is art. Oh, and whereas I think certain things are meant to be misinterpreted, I don't think this is one of them.
And a common thing to do in stories is to mislead people into thinking their doing bad things when it turns out they never were and it just so happened that way.
Personally, the only thing I see in that situation where Erstin helped Tomoe was probably the fact where Arika was going to see Sergay to check out her emotions if they are real. Hence, her leaving schoolgrounds would make her more vulnerable and easier to attack and Tomoe would be able to estimate where Arika was headed. However that's how I see it. Rena's story was already known and no doubt Windbloom would make sure every student was aware of the rebel incident (To ensure mistakes like that won't happen) and such.
Also, I'm not sure if you missed this, but the way it was thought. It wasn't a 'Hey, I'm just doing Arika a favour and having fun with you at the same time!' sort of tone, but a 'I feel bad for pulling you into this' sort of tone. Erstin knew something was going to happen to Arika, and that keeping Nina occupied would contribute to it happening.
Well since you want to think that way, I'll put it another way,
First off, Erstin no doubt knew where Arika was heading to, Sergay, and she knows that Nina has strong affections for him.
2nd, Nina was wondering where Arika was, the last thing I would want to do in that situation would be to prevent any possible intruders from interrupting it. Besides, she says she hasn't been with Nina alone for awhile and we all know just how much she loves her.
Thus, she was helping Arika out by making sure no one would interferre with her confession but didn't realized that someone else was a step ahead of her.
Still, it could go eitherway.
Oh, I'd personally love to believe that Erstin is entirely innocent and just wants a bit of fun time with Nina alone. However, the curse of a pessimist prevents me from doing so.
A nice theory, hadn't thought of that.. but don't think it fits either. I don't think Erstin is the type of person to view other people as competition for ones love as Nina and Arika do, I think she is more mature than that.. and more intelligent than we think.. in that devious kind of way. I also wouldn't view Arika as competition for Nina's love if I knew that she loved Sergei. In fact, if I was that kind of person, I would be pleased? Why? Because it would create a rift between the two, and push them apart, leaving more room for me to 'get in there'.
It wasn't just the fact that it was thought, as soon as I realised that I felt my heart sink, and the tone made it worse. It wasn't a playful tone. It was a dire tone. Erstin was going to cause, or contribute to something bad.
Perhaps I emphasised the deal with Tomoe a little to much. If there was one, I don't think it holds much more than the Nagi and Smith agreement.
You have a good point there. I just think that Erstin fears of being wholly replaced by Arika. Didn't she admit that she wasn't performing well at all as an otome? I think one of her main joys of being at Gualderobe Academy was Nina. And, as it has been lately, Nina is usually always with Arika and there is rarely a time when they are apart. Arika just popped into the picture, took her place by Nina's side, and is proving to be everything that she isn't.
Also, it could be Erstin made the deal and then Tomoe lied about how she'd take care of the Arika problem. That is the only part of the plan I really don't see her condoning at all.
Anh_Minh
2006-01-16, 13:52
Oh, I have question. If it was asked before, sorry.
Why does everyone assume Arika's going to see Sergey? I thought she was going to the palace, which must have archives about Rena.
SoldierOfDarkness
2006-01-16, 14:30
"That person, even if he's a middle-aged old man who likes to tease...but I...That's why I have to go, to see my true feelings."
-Arika
I don't think she's going to see Mashiro about her true feelings.:heh: That or the archives will show her anything about Sergay.
And Sergay is the diplomat to Windbloom right? That's probably where she thinks he is.
I think that's why we all think she's going to see Sergay.
Anh_Minh
2006-01-16, 14:34
Oh, right. I'd forgotten about that.
chaos_alfa
2006-01-16, 14:37
perhaps the Sapphire of the Azure Sky wil save arika again from those people
Xellos-_^
2006-01-16, 15:06
perhaps the Sapphire of the Azure Sky wil save arika again from those people
Sergy of the Fist of the North Hound to the resuce.
Sergy of the Fist of the North Hound to the resuce.
You beat me to it! :heh:
chaos_alfa
2006-01-16, 16:00
but what if Sapphire of the Azure Sky scares those nasy people away and than Sergy comes because he heard Arika scream and finds socked Arika in the ally plus it seems to me that the hand of one of those persones want to the Sapphire of the Azure Sky so that could have trigert the Sapphire of the Azure Sky to protect Arika
PS. sorry for my bad writing :S
wombatlord
2006-01-16, 16:24
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Uh.. I'm misinterpreting things? You are allowing your emotions to blind you. Who was the character least likely to betray or cause harm to anyone? Erstin. A common story telling technique is to make people trust a person, to view them in a way that cannot be considered entirely serious. As a bit of fun, entertainment. Then you set them up as one of the biggest catalysts from a plot point of view. They betray their so-called friends, usually for a helpless and needless ideal.
Also, I'm not sure if you missed this, but the way it was thought. It wasn't a 'Hey, I'm just doing Arika a favour and having fun with you at the same time!' sort of tone, but a 'I feel bad for pulling you into this' sort of tone. Erstin knew something was going to happen to Arika, and that keeping Nina occupied would contribute to it happening.
It's also explained perfectly well if Erstin knows that Nina is likely to respond poorly to Arika-Sergei luvluv, and doesn't require Erstin to suddenly be the sort of person who goes around betraying one of her closest friends to be raped. Which I find it hideously implausible that Erstin would do that.
ArchDragon
2006-01-16, 16:35
I'm still convinced that Erstin is innocent as far as Tomoe is concerned.
Letting Arika stole Sergay right under Nina's nose would give Erstin one huge opening if she likes Nina that way.
Besides, no matter what happened to Arika, Nina's heart will always be occupied by Sergay.
So getting rid of Arika won't serve Erstin any purpose whatsoever.
The only way she can get Nina, is to get rid of Sergay (impossible) or put someone between them (and here comes Arika).
Unlike Miya, who has known Tomoe for ages, Erstin has absolutely NO reason to trust Tomoe enough to make such a conspiracy with her.
Plus, how in the world could Erstin know that Tomoe/Miya is capable of pulling off such an act?
We all know what happened during the survival test, so it's safe to assume that at that point, there was nothing between Erstin and Tomoe since Tomoe didn't mind getting Erstin in trouble together with Arika.
As for Erstin apologizing to Nina in her mind, it's because she "betrayed" Nina by supporting Arika's crush for Sergay.
Otherwise she would've apologized to Arika instead, for sending her to her demise.
As for Tomoe's evil smile, it's because she caught Arika spilling her guts to Erstin.
I don't think it has anything to do with Arika's gem at all.
And I don't think she's checking out on Erstin either.
It doesn't take a genius to know that Arika is in turmoil, and finding out about your enemy's weaknesses is always useful even if you can't use them against her right off the bat, hence her evil smile.
As for the distance, it's anime, such things are usually not considered important.
Unlike Miya, who has known Tomoe for ages, Erstin has absolutely NO reason to trust Tomoe enough to make such a conspiracy with her. Plus, how in the world could Erstin know that Tomoe/Miya is capable of pulling off such an act?
You, like all of us, don't know any more about the characters then they tell us. Ers-chan and Tomoe could very well know each other.
Erstin and Tomoe could be in league as spies from Schwartz or the Black Valley (can anyone tell me what the difference is?) Erstin could just be better at hiding it.
Inside Erstin's head:
-------------
*Nina Crying*
Nina: "Arika ran away with otousama and now they're married! Boo Hoo!"
Erstin: "You know what would make you feel better? Yuri. Lots of yuri."
*Erstin rips Nina's cloths off with her teeth
-------------
And with that, countless doujins are spawned, and everyone with a sane mind feels hundreds of brain cells die.
ArchDragon
2006-01-16, 17:09
You, like all of us, don't know any more about the characters then they tell us. Ers-chan and Tomoe could very well know each other.
Erstin and Tomoe could be in league as spies from Schwartz or the Black Valley (can anyone tell me what the difference is?) Erstin could just be better at hiding it.
You, like other conspiracy minded people here, speculated waaay too much.
Sure, it's possible, but so is Sergay being Arika's father.
Both are so unlikely at this point it's not even worth mentioning.
As for any of them being spies, I really doubt it.
I mean, just remember HiME, there was no "sudden revelation" of any char being anything but themselves except for Reito, since he's the "final boss".
Tempest35
2006-01-16, 17:51
*smirks* This WOULD be interesting - to see lovable Erstin fall to the 'Dark Side'. Heh, Darth Tomoe is very good, I'll give her that but I don't think that Erstin is doing this to Arika on purpose. If she knew that Arika was going to go through this in the alley, both she and Nina would be there, kicking ass. Tomoe could have given her a reason to keep Nina occupied, just not the real reason.
Tomoe won't have to tell Erstin that 'Yes, I'm going to have Arika raped so she'll be expelled from the academy and have trauma the rest of her natural born life while you get your yuri with Nina and I get my Otomoe membership card and then have my way with 'Mashiro-chan' every night. '. That would frighten nearly everyone away. :heh:
Now, if Tomoe told Erstin that went along these lines, 'Oh, you told her that did you? Wow, and here I might have said the same thing you said, but you beat me too it. I think this can work out for 'her good... Tell you what, I'll help a bit myself. All you have to do to make sure that it does is to keep Miss Nina ... 'busy'. You know she'll do anything if her 'Father' is involved. You don't want to spoil the moment between Arika and Major Wang, do you? Just keep Nina here and it will be alright. She'll get over her father and once she does, she'll see that you've been by her side all along. Don't worry, everything will work out perfectly'
If they would have showed something like that, I think everyone could believe that Erstin would have done what she did. Yes, I am well aware that what I just said is waaaaay~ over the hill but Tomoe has a way with words, good enough to paint a pretty enough picture to make someone do what she wants and keep them relatively in the dark.
In regards to Tomoe and Miya, Tomoe probably has one of those nice lil arrangements with Miya - 'Do what I say and you'll become an Otome'. Probably cited family paying out, countries expectations and all that - enough to smush the girl's own sense of right and wrong and make her fearful. Tomoe's Coral #2 - if following her words would ensure you a place among the graduate Coral into Pearls, don't you think Miya would follow her?
lone_wolf
2006-01-16, 17:57
Ok, if you don't mind a bit of profanity then you can continue reading, I've got a lot to say. (EDIT: So caught up I forgot the profanity. Damn it. :) )
Firstly, I must say I am a total fool when it comes to this topic. A complete and utter fool. I was being blind myself.. well, actually, deaf, but I'll explain. Erstin. There were a few suggestions that she was in-with Tomoe, and I cast them aside with firm belief in what I was saying was correct. I can now say, I should not have done. Now, I must say that I am watching these episodes with pretty damn good quality sound, and some people might not notice this, but I'm not sure how sound quality would affect it. I didn't see any other posts about this, so here goes.
Ok, you are probably wondering what the hell made me change my mind so fast, and why I am suddenly contradicting myself on a topic I thought I was entirely correct on. I think it is now safe to assume that Erstin is in with Tomoe, or has motives that coincide with those of Tomoe. Where did I get this from? Two words: "Gomen, Nina". I was listening very intenly through this episode, and it paid off. Why do these two words hold particular meaning? I mean, Erstin was hugging Nina and could have been mearly playful when she said them. But thats just it; they were not said.
In the scene there was a lot of background noise to this, as all dialogue can be considered background noise to these two words. Erstin didn't say them. She thought them. Now, most people will probably have caught on here, but just in case, I shall elaborate.
Ok, so it was Erstin that found Arika and got her talking, correct? And Tomoe turned up? Oh yes, but not to listen. I wondered originally how she could hope to hear anything from such a distance, but I realised, she wasn't trying to listen. She was checking up on Erstin. It is Erstin that convinces Arika to go on some wild goose chase with no real point, that just happens to lead her into the ending situation. It was Erstin's job to occupy Nina, who was the only person that knew of Arika's absence, and could have done anything. In fact, Nina would have been the perfect person to turn up in the ending scenes, because of lot of those guys would be waking up a few days later with amnesia.
Tomoe set the people up through Miya, and Erstin set Arika up to go straight through them, and then kept Nina occupied so she could not do anything. Understood?
I don't know what to think. I feel my slightly pathetic and optimistic hopes of a Nina and Erstin relationship, that didn't mix at all well with my clearly pessimistic and sensible hopes relating to every other aspect of the series, just died. I also feel overly sorry for Arika. Its a trap a person didn't have to be stupid to fall in. After all, you were set up by one of your friends, the friend that you never took seriously. That in itself is a grave mistake to make. It has made me respect Nina, but saw where her weakness lies. To occupy her, you just need to get personal. Then she is too busy getting embarrased and trying to avoid questions to think of anything else.
Right, a lot to say on that point, but heres the next one: Aswald is far from powerful. We saw, at least, I think we saw what exactly the black valley was. What is it? Not a whole lot to tell you the truth. They need all the tech they can find to support their minimalistic numbers. But, hope does come for them, Nagi, himself, said that if they got the technolodgy they were looking for, the tides would turn. So, what does this mean for the series now?
Aswald arn't a major competitor for Schwartz or Nagi and Smith. They lack almost everything one needs to run a military campain.
Uh.. what else.. ah.. my minds to caught up with the topic of Erstin. Damn, I didn't suspect anything from her, and I usually see up and comming betrayals a mile off. It really surprized me, and how subtly it was achieved. Two words, one thought. Very efficent, and I applaud Sunrise. Not on their decision though.
Mod Edit: Sorry, no Manga spoilers (even with the Spoiler Tags). Thanks. :)
EDIT: This wasn't actually a manga spoiler a but a spoiler for EP 16 of the anime but since it's been edited by the mod there's no point in having this message here....sorry folks. I make my point elsewhere.:confused:
Go ahead and get rid of it Catgirls.
--Lone Wolf
You, my friend, are making it worse for yourself. I've had enough of posts like these on IMDb's Underworld 2 board. And yes, it is just you. I feel that the series is getting better. It is about to peak as the battle starts. In the words of Nagi, it has begun.
You say it is only me, and yet you refer to having had enough of posts like mine already...
Oh, and in regards to the second point, have you no clue? Young girls often end up having severly strong crushes on older men. I see nothing wrong with it, just so long as it is only a teenage crush. You people view this topic far to harshly. I'd post a reality check.. but can't be bothered.
Yes, I'm sure it happens all the time... so what?
Uh.. then you really take things far to seriously. I never really liked Arika, though I did find myself liking her a little more in post-7, pre-14 episodes. This series is one of great quality, and fantastic story. And it has shoujo-ai.. letting Arika put you of the series is a little over the top. As she is bound to improve and forget her temporary crush on Sergei.. as long as her doesn't make it worse.
A likeable main character is what makes a story... and there is really no shoujo-ai to speak of accept for some random fanservice... and the story is not all that fantastic... and I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to vehemently defend this anime...
But then, I don't even know why I'm this posting anyways, I dont really care :rolleyes:
Bored, I guess
Anh_Minh
2006-01-16, 18:45
Aren't students forbidden to leave the academy after hours? I seem to remember Nina asking for Nao's help in sneaking out. So I don't think she'd have gone to Sergey anyway - not without special circumstances, and what could they be? (Arika going to Sergey might count, but how would she know about that?)
ArchDragon
2006-01-16, 18:57
Aren't students forbidden to leave the academy after hours? I seem to remember Nina asking for Nao's help in sneaking out. So I don't think she'd have gone to Sergey anyway - not without special circumstances, and what could they be? (Arika going to Sergey might count, but how would she know about that?)
Nina was asking Nao to help her find out who sold Arika's uniform, she knew how to sneak out on her own if she ever wanted to.
And Arika is going to see Sergay, though I don't really know what she want to do once she met him.
"I must confirm my feelings!" is really faque and can mean anything from simply meeting Sergay to see how it feels being alone with him, to an outright confession that she fell in love with him.
imperialmog
2006-01-16, 19:13
Am I also the only one as well who thinks Erstin might also be developing feelings for Arika as well? That and maybe her apoligizing is like in ep 9 where she was saying she's sorry for every little thing, even things she wasn't at fault for, makes me think she does have some self-esteem issues here. That and I hope we find out what she was about to explain to Arika in ep. 9 as well, along the lines of why she's in the academy. I also remember something along the lines in book smarts, that Erstin is near or at the top amongst the corals.
Hopefully Arika also gets a hint soon to not blurt everything out to everyone as well. Though I think Tomoe would figure a few things out anyway since we do see her in a library by herself researching.
I really don't get where everyone is coming up with the "Erstin is evil, is in league with Tomoe or has a dark side" theory. I never got any of that in the ep. She was merely parroting the story that Ms. Maria apparently told ALL of them when they entered the school (and it's not like it couldn't be found in their library like Mai's story was found). Having Arika sort of being exposed as the true Queen of Windbloom this early puzzles me a bit. Why now and what for? And I am wondering if the North Hound is going to be a badass to make his appearance. All in all, interesting ep, even if Arika was more than a tad insensitive. I hope she snaps out of it soon. I miss Übergenki Arika. It was good, however, to see that Nina really does worry about Arika. Erstin, I think, is just growing very fond of Arika and wants to help her all she can. Distracting Nina is just part of that (methinks Nina is starting to get a clue as to what's really affecting Arika, or least she thinks she does....Sergay, of course....damn that father complex! :heh: )
Catgirls
2006-01-16, 20:38
Hmmm...well, this thread seems to be going rather well. Maybe I'll wait until Wednesday to start the next episode thread. Hmm....
I really don't get where everyone is coming up with the "Erstin is evil, is in league with Tomoe or has a dark side" theory. I never got any of that in the ep. She was merely parroting the story that Ms. Maria apparently told ALL of them when they entered the school (and it's not like it couldn't be found in their library like Mai's story was found). Having Arika sort of being exposed as the true Queen of Windbloom this early puzzles me a bit. Why now and what for? And I am wondering if the North Hound is going to be a badass to make his appearance. All in all, interesting ep, even if Arika was more than a tad insensitive. I hope she snaps out of it soon. I miss Übergenki Arika. It was good, however, to see that Nina really does worry about Arika. Erstin, I think, is just growing very fond of Arika and wants to help her all she can. Distracting Nina is just part of that (methinks Nina is starting to get a clue as to what's really affecting Arika, or least she thinks she does....Sergay, of course....damn that father complex! :heh: )
Well, people here on AF are making it easier for us fellow posters to know when they speculate way too much.:heh:
Me neither. Not a single hint of Erstin betraying Arika, not a glint of evil in her eyes. As pointed out by imperialmog:
her apoligizing is like in ep 9 where she was saying she's sorry for every little thing, even things she wasn't at fault for, makes me think she does have some self-esteem issues here
For a girl who already has issues with her own confidence/self-esteem, she has the ability to be evil-mind to co-operate with a really "evil minded" person such as Tomoe, who even Nina doesn't know of? (know of the evil intentions I mean).
Was there even such a similar case in MH? Nao was pretty anti-men and not trusting of her fellow Himes in the first place, Sister was manipulated by the man she loves, Mikoto was following OL's orders, Shizuru was "protecting" Natsuki, Yukino just got desperate when she tried to attack Mai.
:eyebrow:
frodo1701
2006-01-16, 20:49
I really don't get where everyone is coming up with the "Erstin is evil, is in league with Tomoe or has a dark side" theory. I never got any of that in the ep. She was merely parroting the story that Ms. Maria apparently told ALL of them when they entered the school (and it's not like it couldn't be found in their library like Mai's story was found). Having Arika sort of being exposed as the true Queen of Windbloom this early puzzles me a bit. Why now and what for? And I am wondering if the North Hound is going to be a badass to make his appearance. All in all, interesting ep, even if Arika was more than a tad insensitive. I hope she snaps out of it soon. I miss Übergenki Arika. It was good, however, to see that Nina really does worry about Arika. Erstin, I think, is just growing very fond of Arika and wants to help her all she can. Distracting Nina is just part of that (methinks Nina is starting to get a clue as to what's really affecting Arika, or least she thinks she does....Sergay, of course....damn that father complex! :heh: )
I agree with you. Erstin's thought apology seemed to me to be guilt over not telling Nina where Arika was was going and providing a distraction for her. After all, anyone who has lived with Nina as long as Erstin has couldn't help but notice how she feels about her father. I don't get any feeling of evil Erstin or her working with Tomoe.
I also think it's too soon and too coincidental for us to find out that Arika is the real queen. It's all being force-fed to us all at once. I personally think Nagi may have something to do with this revelation in order to make Sergey react. I feel that there is at least one more twist to this before we find out the truth.
I to hope to see genki Arika again soon, Although this angst has provided me with a great avatar. :heh: Thanks again Woland.
SoldierOfDarkness
2006-01-16, 20:56
Having Arika sort of being exposed as the true Queen of Windbloom this early puzzles me a bit. Why now and what for?
So they can get Schwarz's agenda into gear. I believe Nagi's deal with them was to provide the real identity of the queen which he told Sergay to do. The story from the nanny doesn't have to be fully real or at all, it may turn out that the old lady was tricked by Rena to ensure the princess' survival. It makes sense, rather than eliminate all witnesses it would be better to "trick" the witnesses.
Of course we still don't exactly know what Nagi is up to, he may have his own agendas which even Smith doesn't realize.
lone_wolf
2006-01-16, 20:59
I really don't get where everyone is coming up with the "Erstin is evil, is in league with Tomoe or has a dark side" theory. I never got any of that in the ep. She was merely parroting the story that Ms. Maria apparently told ALL of them when they entered the school (and it's not like it couldn't be found in their library like Mai's story was found).
Yeah I'm in the same boat with Kieli. There's a preview for episode for episode 16:
Actually kari-no-sugata beat me to it but I repost what was mentioned earlier:
Well, according to the ep summary, Erstin is helping Arika and Nina. And Arika has encouraged Erstin in similar ways before (eg after the mid-terms exams were over)
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d199/LLStarks/Mai%20Otome%20ch22/-21.jpg
Who know's what this preview can lead us to but for now I'll just sit back and watch and see if everyone's speculations are even close.:heh: Speculations are one big migraine anway.
--Lone Wolf
Who know's what this preview can lead us to but for now I'll just sit back and watch and see if everyone's speculations are even close.:heh: Speculations are one big migraine anway.
--Lone Wolf
Tell me about it. I've got SUCH a headache from all of the convoluted speculations. However, I am rather interested to see which ones pan out.
imperialmog
2006-01-16, 22:14
How is even though they say who the real Queen is, that I get the feeling that it might be a lie to throw the wrong scent around so nobody gets the real one. Then again, there does seem to a bond between Mashiro, Arika, and Nina.
Am I also the only one who feels with Erstin being very huggable towards Nina and Arika that she doesn't get much love at home? It sounds like she has parents who are overbearing and like to live their lives through their children. Maybe that's why she stays is because she values the friends she has now.
I have to give some praise for Sergay since how many single guys around 18 or 19 decide to adopt a lonely girl as his own daughter and raise her as such. Hopefully he figures a way out of his perdicament without too much harm to anyone, I don't want to picture him as swinging towards ones like Nina and Arika. Maybe they should help him find a woman for him in a strange scenario.
ArchDragon
2006-01-16, 22:27
I have to give some praise for Sergay since how many single guys around 18 or 19 decide to adopt a lonely girl as his own daughter and raise her as such. Hopefully he figures a way out of his perdicament without too much harm to anyone, I don't want to picture him as swinging towards ones like Nina and Arika. Maybe they should help him find a woman for him in a strange scenario.
He is speculated to have one already, it's Mai.
Now she disappeared on him, but we all know she'll show up again near the end.
Of course, Sunrise could make Yuuichi appear near the end as Mai's lover, but that's extremely unlikely in a 26 ep. series.
Yet again, I stress the tone of her voice. I expect many of you didn't notice, caught up in reading the subs perhaps, but I was listening intently at this point, and regardless of language, you know a solemn tone when you hear one. This is what makes it such an ingenious line. Sure, Erstin could be simply apologising for giving Arika a chance to go find Sergei, which I would love to believe (since, then, Sunrise would be paying some attention to the feelings of Erstin for Nina), but I don't think she would adopt that tone. Who knows, I just don't think that tone was anything like the Erstin we know. Hmm, and those that didn't even get a hint, listen up next time you watch the episode, you don't get it if you just read the subs. "Sorry, Nina" isn't very useful without the tone it was said in.. no, wait, thought in.
Nightengale
2006-01-17, 03:52
Yet again, I stress the tone of her voice. I expect many of you didn't notice, caught up in reading the subs perhaps, but I was listening intently at this point, and regardless of language, you know a solemn tone when you hear one. This is what makes it such an ingenious line. Sure, Erstin could be simply apologising for giving Arika a chance to go find Sergei, which I would love to believe (since, then, Sunrise would be paying some attention to the feelings of Erstin for Nina), but I don't think she would adopt that tone. Who knows, I just don't think that tone was anything like the Erstin we know. Hmm, and those that didn't even get a hint, listen up next time you watch the episode, you don't get it if you just read the subs. "Sorry, Nina" isn't very useful without the tone it was said in.. no, wait, thought in.
Wasn't it obvious that it was Arika that was apologizing, mentally? She's the only one who knows of Daddy Complexity. Even if Erstin knew, it didn't sound like her.
Yet again, I stress the tone of her voice. I expect many of you didn't notice, caught up in reading the subs perhaps, but I was listening intently at this point, and regardless of language, you know a solemn tone when you hear one. This is what makes it such an ingenious line. Sure, Erstin could be simply apologising for giving Arika a chance to go find Sergei, which I would love to believe (since, then, Sunrise would be paying some attention to the feelings of Erstin for Nina), but I don't think she would adopt that tone. Who knows, I just don't think that tone was anything like the Erstin we know. Hmm, and those that didn't even get a hint, listen up next time you watch the episode, you don't get it if you just read the subs. "Sorry, Nina" isn't very useful without the tone it was said in.. no, wait, thought in.
...
I believe majority of us who believe Erstin is innocent HAS HEARD that thought being voiced.
Solemn tone of voice =/= "Sorry, Nina(for setting Arika up)". It could very well be, "sorry Nina(for giving Arika a go at your dad)". Plus the fact that what we've seen about Erstin, makes it even less likely for her to do something as diabolical as Tomoe's agendas.
And if you want to speculate that Erstin is evil....fine. But dont make it sound like we're wrong/you're right, since both of our conclusions are speculations.
Looks like Eclipze beat me to it...
Yet again, I stress the tone of her voice. I expect many of you didn't notice, caught up in reading the subs perhaps, but I was listening intently at this point, and regardless of language, you know a solemn tone when you hear one. This is what makes it such an ingenious line. Sure, Erstin could be simply apologising for giving Arika a chance to go find Sergei, which I would love to believe (since, then, Sunrise would be paying some attention to the feelings of Erstin for Nina), but I don't think she would adopt that tone. Who knows, I just don't think that tone was anything like the Erstin we know. Hmm, and those that didn't even get a hint, listen up next time you watch the episode, you don't get it if you just read the subs. "Sorry, Nina" isn't very useful without the tone it was said in.. no, wait, thought in.
Preston, I find it ironic that when you have all this evidence that Erstin is a good person and possibly feels indepted to Arika, that you can take the tone of one's voice, which could be the result of bad acting or your own schema, and throw away all that we know about Erstin - just so that you can make her a villain. Man, as you said, you really are a pessimist.
On the other hand, you could be right, although I highly doubt it. But I must stress that your are basing your conclusion not on evidence but on inference. Your interpretation of the fact may be right, although I think it is clouded by your own schema. At this point in time it is futile to even go down the avenue of a guilty Erstin until we have more data to go by. And, yet, so many people seem to have done so already. Why is easier to believe in something bad than something good?
Right now Erstin is not depicted as the villain. In fact, she doesn't seem to have one mean bone in her body, but just wants the best for everyone. I truly think that she realized that in order for Arika to heal and move on, Arika would have to confront her feelings and Sergey. And although she knows that her helping Arika may seem as a betrayal to Nina, hence her apology, she had to help Arika. Helping each other is, after all, what friendship is all about. Or have you forgotten that?
Why is easier to believe in something bad than something good?
No idea. However, thats the way I look at things in real life, yet its the direct opposite when watching an anime (or speculating about it).:heh:
One more thing to add, the idea of "Erstin being evil" is about the same level of speculation (in terms of current information that we're given) as calling Tomoe a good person.
Tone of voice does not a guilty person make. And Erstin is a serious person to start with, not given to whimsy at all. So just using that to base an argument around is REALLY weak. I like my logic to have facts, real concrete evidence to build a case around, not something a spurious as vocal tone. And even if one were to do as Preston suggests, Tomoe's voice tone would make her look like a saint. It's the visual asides that damn her soul to the 7th level of hell. Trust me, bring me more evidence of Erstin's duplicity and I might buy it...but I am not making any promises.
Tempest35
2006-01-17, 06:40
Hey, no one said that she WAS/IS evil.
Okay so maybe Erstin's 'plan' and Tomoe's coincided just this once - Two independants that just happened to cross when they did.
Anime Adoru
2006-01-17, 06:49
Even Sunrise makes mistakes.
If we wouldn't know better, I would believe this pictures suggests Arika is plotting something nasty against Erstin.
http://www.adoru.com/1.jpg
And this picture as well.
http://www.adoru.com/2.jpg
It doesn't make sense that Erstin plots something against Arika. Her hugging of Nina IMO is just a combination of the pleasant (hugging) with the useful (distracting Nina).
Nightengale
2006-01-17, 06:58
Why does everyone here thinks that Erstin was the one who thought "Sorry, Nina-chan."?
From the way I looked at it, it was Arika thinking that instead. It was Arika's voice too.
ChaosWing
2006-01-17, 07:35
Why does everyone here thinks that Erstin was the one who thought "Sorry, Nina-chan."?
From the way I looked at it, it was Arika thinking that instead. It was Arika's voice too.
That is what happened. Listen, people... not even once did I think that was Erstin saying that.
Why does everyone here thinks that Erstin was the one who thought "Sorry, Nina-chan."?
From the way I looked at it, it was Arika thinking that instead. It was Arika's voice too.
Actually, I think its Erstin's voice. Arika was thinking about what Erstin said right after that infamous phrase.;)
Nightengale
2006-01-17, 07:50
Actually, I think its Erstin's voice. Arika was thinking about what Erstin said right after that infamous phrase.;)
This isn't the first time I've seen this presentation technique used in anime. Showing someone else, while another person's thoughts are doing the thinking.
I firmly believe it's Arika.
I guess Im tone deaf, but I didnt hear the Arika-ish sound waves when that line was spoken. Right after that phrase, it was Erstin's voice, and it sounded like the same voice that said "Sorry, Nina".
Kinda a pointless debate though.:heh:
You, like other conspiracy minded people here, speculated waaay too much. Sure, it's possible, but so is Sergay being Arika's father.
Both are so unlikely at this point it's not even worth mentioning.
As for any of them being spies, I really doubt it.
I mean, just remember HiME, there was no "sudden revelation" of any char being anything but themselves except for Reito, since he's the "final boss".
When I suggested Erstin could be a Schwartz spy, I meant it is sarcasm. Most people, myself included, forget that tone doesn't carry in written text. Sorry.
Little aspects of this show, like the Tokiha letter Sergey got and the "Gomen, Nina" get so overanalysed here. It's like being back in Grade Nine enlish class as legions of stupid highschoolers every year draw the same wrong conclusions on Shakespear, which wasn't that good anyways.
That being said, I'm just as wrapped up in the show as everyone else, eager to see what happens to Arika, Nina, and Mai. Or why Erstin is apoligizing. Personally, I want to see more of Irina-chan.
Hey, no one said that she WAS/IS evil.
Okay so maybe Erstin's 'plan' and Tomoe's coincided just this once - Two independants that just happened to cross when they did.
Actually it seems that the possibility that she is evil has been bandied about in the last few threads. That is what I was addressing.
Tremalkinger
2006-01-17, 09:36
Why does everyone here thinks that Erstin was the one who thought "Sorry, Nina-chan."?
From the way I looked at it, it was Arika thinking that instead. It was Arika's voice too.
Um... No. Go watch the raw again. Erstin was definately the one saying 'gomen'. Even if I try really hard, I can't see how someone could confuse the two voices.
Also! My theory on Erstin being evil is just that... a theory. I didn't even bother to back it up with evidence, mainly because it barely stands up to light scrutiny. Please don't bother attacking it, because I'm not making any sorts of claims to it coming true. It's more of a gut feeling than anything else.
Pff.. believe what you will. I care not. I was simply trying to bring across that I, for once, believed strongly in, despite a so-called lack of evidence. (You know what, Kieli, I find your post highly amusing, solid fact based arguments, eh? Unluckily enough for those that have that preference, many here do not. Oh, and I'm with you, but when the facts come in such a form, is it up to you to decide what is solid and what is not?) Perhaps I came about this in the wrong manner. Now, I could lecture you, saying how very important tone of voice is in story telling media, and in such a scene the creator would strive to get the intended effect, but I really, really, cannot be bothered. Seems I have become overly impatient with the box office release of Underworld 2 so close.
So, please, lets forget this entirely. I'm sure most have you have made points that have been scolded that you defended simply with the fact it was a gut instinct. Then let me say the same. The moment I heard those two words, these thoughts came to my mind. I posted them to see what others thought, and the majority obviously doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe it. Let me finish in saying, if I am wrong, which I hope, I will be happy, admit the fact I was wrong, and move on. If I am right, I will sneer at those posts that dismissed the possibility so completely. Either way, I don't mind.
So, please, lets forget this entirely. I'm sure most have you have made points that have been scolded that you defended simply with the fact it was a gut instinct. Then let me say the same. The moment I heard those two words, these thoughts came to my mind. I posted them to see what others thought, and the majority obviously doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe it. Let me finish in saying, if I am wrong, which I hope, I will be happy, admit the fact I was wrong, and move on. If I am right, I will sneer at those posts that dismissed the possibility so completely. Either way, I don't mind.
Having your gut feelings/theory is ok, fine by any means.
But when you try to impose your ideas on others, giving people the feeling that "I am right, you are wrong", especially with a gut feeling thats not taken quite as well as others, it gets irritating.
Specifically, this line:
Yet again, I stress the tone of her voice. I expect many of you didn't notice, caught up in reading the subs perhaps, but I was listening intently at this point, and regardless of language, you know a solemn tone when you hear one.
SoldierOfDarkness
2006-01-17, 12:22
and the majority obviously doesn't believe or doesn't want to believe it.
Uh no because your evidence can also be used the other way and that you chose not to believe it. It can swing eitherway.
And according to spoilers
Erstin had nothing to do with Tomoe
My reasoning is because simply there is no benefits and it does the show no purpose whatsoever. Just because it's a twist doesn't make it awesome or good, some things fit, some just don't fit.
Let me finish in saying, if I am wrong, which I hope, I will be happy, admit the fact I was wrong, and move on. If I am right, I will sneer at those posts that dismissed the possibility so completely. Either way, I don't mind.
That was completely unnecessary, you may try your best to make a second plan so you can win but this is the internet. People will simply forget about it anyways :p, there are going to be more important things to discuss. And eitherway people will still sneer at you back.
Ok. So the Windbloom heir mystery has been clarified....
Mashiro is Rena's child while Arika is the true Queen, am I right?
Those guys mugging Arika are involved in a conspiracy orchestrated by....
Tomoe.
Remember episode five when Miya, on Tomoe's orders, took Arika's uniform from the laundry and delivered it to the guy that profits at the shop that sells Otome merchandise?
He's the same guy that has laid his hands on Arika and will try to rape her.
Likely Miya secretly call those guys to fuck Arika, because Tomoe, in a somewhat quasi yuri-esque manner, requested her to do so.
PastPrime
2006-01-17, 12:34
Uh no because your evidence can also be used the other way and that you chose not to believe it. It can swing eitherway.
And according to spoilers
Erstin had nothing to do with Tomoe
My reasoning is because simply there is no benefits and it does the show no purpose whatsoever. Just because it's a twist doesn't make it awesome or good, some things fit, some just don't fit.
That was completely unnecessary, you may try your best to make a second plan so you can win but this is the internet. People will simply forget about it anyways :p, there are going to be more important things to discuss. And eitherway people will still sneer at you back.
The true plot twist would be if Erstin, not Nina, turned out to be the Princess and/or the third person required to play the Harmonium.
so....
Does this episode confirm that Arika is definitely the true queen? And Mashiro was suppose to be the daughter of Rena?
PastPrime
2006-01-17, 12:48
so....
Does this episode confirm that Arika is definitely the true queen? And Mashiro was suppose to be the daughter of Rena?
Just as much as Reito telling Mikota that he wasn't her brother in Mai HiME confirmed that he wasn't her brother.
Anh_Minh
2006-01-17, 12:49
Not really. Arika is probably Windbloom's heir. But we have no idea who Mashiro is.
PastPrime
2006-01-17, 13:15
Not really. Arika is probably Windbloom's heir. But we have no idea who Mashiro is.
I will be very surprised if Arika turns out to be the princess. And, weither she is the Princess or not, Mashiro is evidently one of the three people needed for the Harmonium since two of the three circles lit up when she and Arika were there.
Xellos-_^
2006-01-17, 13:17
Not really. Arika is probably Windbloom's heir. But we have no idea who Mashiro is.
mashiro could be Fumi's clone
I'm not going to use spoilers because all the sources that I am using with Nina and Arika's idendity came up in previous episodes.
If anyone remembers, Mashiro was found by a thief. Not some lady servant, as that is who Rena handed her child to. Mashiro was placed there by some third party.
How Nagi knew that she was not the real princess disturbs me, unless he was involved in placing her there in the first place.
No, Nina is Rena's daughter. Remember the drowning experience? It was clearly Rena's face she remembered. Because she remembered, it placed Nina at the castle during the attack.
But the mystery is the song. Each of the three know the same song but different stanzas. Why is that. What commonality do they share?
However, there is one thing that I find interesting. Remember the pendant Rena placed around Arika. In episode 14 it did not contain the stones. However, when we see Rena in episode 1 sending Arika off, the stones were encased within the pendant.
I don't think it's a mistake, but I am curious as to why.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5681/arikababyep14oldw0yb.jpg
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5431/arikababyep1preview3aj.jpg
Timeless Enigma
2006-01-17, 16:28
If you take a look at 14 again, you will see the gems within the amulet. Look @ 11:41, you will see them clearly.
If anyone remembers, Mashiro was found by a thief. Not some lady servant, as that is who Rena handed her child to. Mashiro was placed there by some third party.
How Nagi knew that she was not the real princess disturbs me, unless he was involved in placing her there in the first place.
No, Nina is Rena's daughter. Remember the drowning experience? It was clearly Rena's face she remembered. Because she remembered, it placed Nina at the castle during the attack.
I'm not sure it does directly - looking at the cap below, it just looks like Rena (although it might not be Rena) is looking over her - but it really could be anywhere - I mean there isn't a burning castle in the background to place her there. Plus would a ''baby'' be able to remember??
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4803/b417qk.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b417qk.jpg)
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4839/maiotome02124422iw4eb.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maiotome02124422iw4eb.jpg)
Click on images for larger verson. ~ Catgirls
Btw, someone once said that wasn't the Queen next to her - how is that a maid - what maid has gold on her uniform hmmm.
Well anyway, if the old granny was correct (and yeah of course she might be lying, most of the characters in Otome are a bunch of liars, but just for the sake of believing her), that baby isn't Rena's daughter and we've seen nothing of Rena's daughter, in fact a direct ''look'' of Rena's daughter was conspicuously absent in episode 15 EDIT: Whoops, episode 14 (maybe she has purple hair ;) ) )
My theory: I'm not convinced Arika is the Princess, nor Rena's daughter - is it not possible that Mashiro is sent down the river with the pendant, found by thieves - who take the pendant but return the Princess (for whatever reason) And "Granny" may or may not be a part of that; she sees the Sapphire and thinks the baby must be the daughter of an Otome (which she isn’t). Overall, yeah that would make Arika a simple 'no-one' (or maybe a ‘someone’, judging Miyu's responses to her)
As to Rena/Nina, they don’t look alike to me, but it would depend on who pappy was, and how Nina came to be a street orphan.
If you take a look at 14 again, you will see the gems within the amulet. Look @ 11:41, you will see them clearly.
I think Piccolo means between the two pics of the baby, one which was shown in ep 1 and the other in ep 14. I'm more inclined to take episode 1 as 'stable reality' and this old lady flashback as a bit more dubious. It could be an art error, they messed it up with Tomoe's sleeve in ep 9 too. I think I've seen the pendant look like it's without the GEMs before, maybe it's upside down heh?
>> but it really could be anywhere
I'm convinced that the child on the river is Nina. The woman looks exactly like Rena - and I doubt there's another person who looks just like her in the series - her arms are outstretched (as she is lowering the cradle on to the water), there is foliage above her, there is a full moon and she has a sad expression. Granted, they're all little things but I think that's a few too many coincidences.
As to how the locket got switched to Arika, beats me. Maybe her 'grandma' wasn't entirely honest with her, which is actually pretty clear, considering how much she seems to have known and how little Arika knows about herself.
Tempest35
2006-01-17, 17:33
Actually it seems that the possibility that she is evil has been bandied about in the last few threads. That is what I was addressing.
Kinda like the 'Arika/Sergay' thing eh? ^^
Y'know, I'm gonna retract my earlier statements that placed me against Erstin. After careful mental review...and some sleep, ;) I've come to a slightly different conclusion and it hinges on what we know of Erstin. I believe that Erstin sincerely wanted to help Arika through her troubles with figuring out if she would choose 'love' or 'duty'. It just so happens that Nina also 'luvs' Sergay too. By encouraging Arika to go for Sergay, she's in a sense 'betraying' Nina's interest in Sergay as well, thus with the 'Gomen, Nina' at that point. I don't think that most girls would feel all together 'right' about setting the friend/rival of their best friend with a person that their best friend also likes as well.
I think that Erstin believes that she's doing this for Nina's 'long term' benefit (as well as her own -shh- :heh:). Heh, and you heard Ers-chan, saying: "it's rare having only the two of us around, so let me cuddle you a bit" - 'Dormei version'. And lookie there, Nina didn't offer much resistance, even less than what Natsuki put up to Shizuru in MH. And Nina calls her 'Ers-chan' as well. (Don't worry Preston, your Nina/Erstin pairing is still in the running. for now. ^^)
Now as for why Tomoe was around when Arika and Erstin were talking? Tomoe knew she had to get Arika OFF campus anyway for the plan to work so ... wouldn't take much from Tomoe to spin a web of words on Arika to get her going.
Well, that's the conclusion I came up with on this. *bows* bash gently...:heh:
USCPharmacist
2006-01-17, 18:54
I'm not going to use spoilers because all the sources that I am using with Nina and Arika's idendity came up in previous episodes.
If anyone remembers, Mashiro was found by a thief. Not some lady servant, as that is who Rena handed her child to. Mashiro was placed there by some third party.
...
2 pendants.....dun dun dannnn:heh:
Kinda like the 'Arika/Sergay' thing eh? ^^
Well yes...and that still makes me shudder violently. :twitch:
Y'know, I'm gonna retract my earlier statements that placed me against Erstin. After careful mental review...and some sleep, ;) I've come to a slightly different conclusion and it hinges on what we know of Erstin. I believe that Erstin sincerely wanted to help Arika through her troubles with figuring out if she would choose 'love' or 'duty'. It just so happens that Nina also 'luvs' Sergay too. By encouraging Arika to go for Sergay, she's in a sense 'betraying' Nina's interest in Sergay as well, thus with the 'Gomen, Nina' at that point. I don't think that most girls would feel all together 'right' about setting the friend/rival of their best friend with a person that their best friend also likes as well.
I think that Erstin believes that she's doing this for Nina's 'long term' benefit (as well as her own -shh- :heh:). Heh, and you heard Ers-chan, saying: "it's rare having only the two of us around, so let me cuddle you a bit" - 'Dormei version'. And lookie there, Nina didn't offer much resistance, even less than what Natsuki put up to Shizuru in MH. And Nina calls her 'Ers-chan' as well. (Don't worry Preston, your Nina/Erstin pairing is still in the running. for now. ^^)
I'd have to agree. Although she's bonded more with Arika, I still think her heart is with Nina and she's doing everything she can to try to spare her. Nina's interest in Sergay is quite creepy and I think Erstin knows that nothing can never really come of it. Sergay would never allow it. I think, to some extent, Nina knows it too and won't admit it.
ArchDragon
2006-01-17, 22:03
so....
Does this episode confirm that Arika is definitely the true queen? And Mashiro was suppose to be the daughter of Rena?
No need for spoiler tags, as those things did happen in this ep.
It's still NOT conclusive that Arika is the true queen.
And Sergay would need a smack in the head if he believed that old woman's story without looking for more evidence.
If Arika is indeed the queen's daughter, then Rena's daughter is most likely Nina.
Since Nina had a flashback of Rena's face when she drowned.
Now, since Rena was an exceptional Otome, whoever her daughter is must inherit some of her talents.
So it's either Arika or Nina, as Mashiro doesn't seem to have exceptional physical abilities.
Tempest35
2006-01-17, 22:10
Now, since Rena was an exceptional Otome, whoever her daughter is must inherit some of her talents.
So it's either Arika or Nina, as Mashiro doesn't seem to have exceptional physical abilities.
You forget her 'queenly' SDs. :D
And this begs the question : Was Rena a Windbloom royal or not? Seems most likely that she was at least the Princess if she had the Blue Sky Sapphire.
You forget her 'queenly' SDs. :D
Whats SDs? (I have no idea_
And this begs the question : Was Rena a Windbloom royal or not? Seems most likely that she was at least the Princess if she had the Blue Sky Sapphire.
Well, this might complicate things abit then...
If Rena = king and queen's daughter, that means the real princess = auntie of Rena's daughter. :heh:
Thats not too much of a problem I guess...personally Im the uncle of 2 cousin-(um, male version of neice). Both of which are 1 and 2 years older than me respectively.:heh:
ArchDragon
2006-01-17, 22:50
You forget her 'queenly' SDs. :D
And this begs the question : Was Rena a Windbloom royal or not? Seems most likely that she was at least the Princess if she had the Blue Sky Sapphire.
I don't know what SD is.
Rena didn't start out having it, she inherited it when she became a Meister, Erstin said so in ep. 14.
So she's probably not from some noble family.
After she retired, she was most likely holding on to it until a successor arrives.
--------------------------------------------
If Rena = king and queen's daughter, that means the real princess = auntie of Rena's daughter. :heh:
Thats not too much of a problem I guess...personally Im the uncle of 2 cousin-(um, male version of neice). Both of which are 1 and 2 years older than me respectively.:heh:
The queen is shown in Sergay's flashback in ep. 2, standing next to Rena, they're both about the same age.
I don't know what SD is.
If I recall correctly, SD = super deformed....
The queen is shown in Sergay's flashback in ep. 2, standing next to Rena, they're both about the same age.
Well, I just just saying that IF Rena is the daughter of the king and queen, her daughter would be the neice-of-the-same-age as the princess, since that would make Rena and the real princess sisters.
kuro_neko
2006-01-18, 13:11
I noticed in episode 14 on several ocassions that when Arika is looking at the Azure Sapphire of the Blue Sky it has both of the gems in it. If I'm not mistaken didn't those come out when she made her contract with Mashiro-sama, only to be taken by Miyu to be examined to see if they could annul the contract? Miyu hasn't been back, other than a visit with Shizuru in this episode, so why would they be BACK in the Gemstone?
Xellos-_^
2006-01-18, 13:26
I noticed in episode 14 on several ocassions that when Arika is looking at the Azure Sapphire of the Blue Sky it has both of the gems in it. If I'm not mistaken didn't those come out when she made her contract with Mashiro-sama, only to be taken by Miyu to be examined to see if they could annul the contract? Miyu hasn't been back, other than a visit with Shizuru in this episode, so why would they be BACK in the Gemstone?
Miyu only took them off, it didn't say she took them with her.
Solitaire
2006-01-18, 20:21
I really thought the old lady that Sergay visited looked a lot like Mai..
The screencap that supposedly resembles Rena also looks a bit like a Mai with long hair. It's probably just me but it seems her hair and eye color seem to resemble Mai's more than anyone else...=/
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