Mai-Otome Romantic Relationships (Possible Spoilers) [Archive]

Tempest35

2006-01-12, 17:13

ShinigamiRukia

2006-01-12, 17:13

Yeah, I thank him for that.... however, this "relationship" of their's it's about to make me stop watch the show....
Their relation ship is just making me feel all weird all of the time they show up also kinda disturbs me haha. die sergay!!!

Diodati

2006-01-12, 17:54

Well, Sergay DID get that 'glint' in his eye when his favorite informer told him about Arika's perdicament so I know those guys had some serious punishment coming to them. So I know that no one is hating on him because he went to go save Arika, who genuinely needed it (in her current state of mind, she was in no shape to fight back from the looks of everything). C'mon, she's had her life saved once already by Sergay, this time it might very well have been her virginity and thus, her qualification to be an Otome, that he saved, not to mention a bunch of trauma from going through such an ordeal. If she shouldn't have started liking him back in episode 10, is THIS a good enough reason for her to start liking him?

I understand your views, but the fact it's completely stuctured and painfully contrived to be Sergay saving Arika with the pure aim of consolidating these feelings is what makes it 'void'. It's not being shown, it's being rammed down our throats. Which in itself is wrong as it forms it on a basic heroism trick - anyone would ''like'' a person who saved them from potential rape, but it's being used to pinion her current (and future) characterisation and what she percieves as ''love''. Out of all people to save her it would be Sergay, just because it has to be. Admittedly I'd overlook it completely if it didn't take up so much of the show - beyond it supplying 'just for the sake of it' all it does it have the protagonist serious, deep, emotional, angsty (oh and no doubt it will venture into Arika vs Nina, meh) It's horribly predictable - even if we admit Arika would have reasonable taste liking her Sergay, who I'm sure is a good knight in shining armour, it's still dull as dishwater to me. Maybe it's only me, but I couldn't care less about Arika's first-love predicament and the ''problems'' it raises because it's been expanded on so poorly by Sunrise - it's just melodrama, and bad melodrama at that.

I can't even say I dislike it - I don't care enough to dislike it. I'm disgruntled more that there are plenty of themes and characters I'd rather see expanded upon at episode 14, and they're not happening because Sunrise is travelling through cliche-town.

I'm just exasperated a bit from all the 'Arika/Sergay hate' nonsense going around - they are not a couple so there IS no 'Arika/Sergay' technically - that's all fandom. Yes, I know that it's implied but that's ALL that it is - implied.
I don't believe for a second that Sergay will reciprocate the feelings 'properly' - and it probably will be temporary anyway. I'd still rather it never happened because it's the most banal part of the episode/s.

The grandma explains to Sergey that the baby Rena put her jewel necklace around during the incident 14 years ago is the true princess.
So unless Rena was Queenie (and she wasn't) the baby with the jewel is not Rena's daughter. Maybe she was merely giving the necklace for the future protection of the Windbloom heir. If she wanted to pass on the gems then why not the Princess. God I dunno, it's not much of a helpful clue granny.

Dagger

2006-01-12, 18:02

...I'm not trying to sound mean or anything, I'm just exasperated a bit from all the 'Arika/Sergay hate' nonsense going around - they are not a couple so there IS no 'Arika/Sergay' technically - that's all fandom. Yes, I know that it's implied but that's ALL that it is - implied.
Thank you! That really needed to be said. All this Arika/Sergay fandom angst got old weeks ago. I feel as though a lot of fans are really jumping ahead of themselves and fretting needlessly about little snippets that are probably misleading anyway (e.g. next episode previews, screencaps, etc.), when they could be enjoying the darn show instead. :heh: I'll be the first one to be floored if the whole Arika/Sergay thing actually goes anywhere, romantically speaking, but I don't think Sunrise pulled her crush out of their collective ass... it makes sense for her to like him in that way, and going through those kinds of unrequited feelings makes her character more balanced and more sympathetic, IMO.

I've always been impressed by the emotional side of the Mai franchise; the director & writers can be surprisingly nuanced when they want to be. They're not sitting in a back room somewhere going "loliconpedoSergaywheeomgpolarbear!1!!"

At least I don't think they are... :twitch:

Anh_Minh

2006-01-12, 18:29

Tempest35

2006-01-12, 18:32

I understand your views, but the fact it's completely stuctured and painfully contrived to be Sergay saving Arika with the pure aim of consolidating these feelings is what makes it 'void'. It's not being shown, it's being rammed down our throats. Which in itself is wrong as it forms it on a basic heroism trick - anyone would ''like'' a person who saved them from potential rape, but it's being used to pinion her current (and future) characterisation and what she percieves as ''love''. Out of all people to save her it would be Sergay, just because it has to be. Admittedly I'd overlook it completely if it didn't take up so much of the show - beyond it supplying 'just for the sake of it' all it does it have the protagonist serious, deep, emotional, angsty (oh and no doubt it will venture into Arika vs Nina, meh) It's horribly predictable - even if we admit Arika would have reasonable taste liking her Sergay, who I'm sure is a good knight in shining armour, it's still dull as dishwater to me. Maybe it's only me, but I couldn't care less about Arika's first-love predicament and the ''problems'' it raises because it's been expanded on so poorly by Sunrise - it's just melodrama, and bad melodrama at that.

OKay, so would it have been better if it was Miss Maria saving her? Or maybe Natsuki or another teacher? Or maybe it would be better if they didn't have the rape thing going on in the first place? Tomoe set that in motion and I've never seen one 15 year old girl setting up another 15 year old girl to be raped like that so I can't say that it's cliche.

Sergay's got a very good underground network in Windbloom thanks to Yamada, and aparently Tomoe's got a fair dealing with the underground herself if she's able to pull this off. So yes, if anyone was to save her, it WOULD be Sergay. She wans't being saved out of any 'consolidation to her feelings' as you put it - this was a definite attempt on taking out Arika in a permenant sense. If this is too 'cliche' for anyone, then they are watching the wrong show. This may well be the 'cement' for Arika in regards to her own knowledge of her 'feelings' for Sergay, however misplaced and misunderstood on her part they may be. We don't even know the REAL reason why she thinks she's falling for Sergay - we're just basing off what her own interpretation of her feelings are.

The ep in Mai HiME where it was Yuuichi who caught Mai in the rain and she broke down crying was also 'cliche'. It could just as easily had been Reito who caught her there, right? But it wasn't. Reito might have been the fan favorite to have been there for Mai but all he could do was empathize with her - Yuuichi KNEW what she was going through because he went through something similar himself. It's one thing to have someone feel sorry for you because they feel sorry and they like you ; it's another thing to have someone feel sorry for you because they know what you're going through.

Just because it isn't Mai's case or Akane's case doesn't make Arika's case any less important because ALL of these Coral and Pearl girls - every single Otome in history - have to face this 'wall' at one time or another before they go to becoming Meister Otome. They don't have to expand on Arika's case alone when there's 50 other Corals and 24 Pearls who have to go through this at some level. Who's to say that something similiar didn't happen to Mai when she was younger? Would that make her case 'too cliche' to be of any importance other than the fact that there's a rouge Pillar-level Otome out there?

EnseiSong

2006-01-12, 19:09

I don't mind whatever Sun Rise might be pulling. Even if they pull SergayxArika.

It's just that they bring on this crush thing waaay to random it was suddenly started from ep.10. Then they kinda dragged it out for not even two eps and Arika is already "in love", which cause her not even sure about being an Otome anymore.

I'm just sick of seeming it. I mean, if she's going to say it, say it. If not, ended already. Because this romance is not something that would keep the audience intersted. Not to me at least.

Nightengale

2006-01-12, 19:12

I can't see why people are going over their heads with their "self-proclaimed" melodrama ~angst~ with this whole Arika ?~~>?Sergay thing. I mean, it's so blatantly clear from Episode 1 that this was going to happen, and yeah, while it may sidetrack from the whole upcoming "New War of the Something Something", some of you are forgetting this is Arika's show. We're supposed to see what things she's going through, not what Mai Otome is going through. And I'm honestly getting Destiny vibes from some people here, but I don't even want to go there. Just a reminder really.

Hell, I don't even think Arika's "feelings" is a crush. All we're seeing is how she views those feelings, and what the misleading people are telling her. coughcoughyohkoakanecoughcough. There's more to those feelings than a simple romantic relationship.

I've said it before, but I'd say Arika's feelings is merely a weird feeling of longing for a father figure she never had. Despite her bickering with the man, she knows Sergay is really just playing around with her. Mix with all that thing going on, and the whole Nina loves father angle, it's bound to be misleading. Sucks to have a friend who loves her own father in an abnormal way.

The only thing that seems romantic so far, (( at least to my eyes )) is Nina's feelings to Sergay. Now, I know some of you say my Arika theory works with Nina as well, but I'm not getting that vibe....yet. I'm open for changes though.

This of course, is ignoring all the canon hetero and yuri pairings.

However, I'll agree to the extent that if Sunrise makes Sergay returns Arika's feelings (( at this stage )), they're really screwing with his character.

Diodati

2006-01-12, 19:15

I'll post in here then, I should really be doing my work, naughty Tempest!!

OKay, so would it have been better if it was Miss Maria saving her? Or maybe Natsuki or another teacher? Or maybe it would be better if they didn't have the rape thing going on in the first place?
Honestly? If they were going to address the rape issue (and it's definitely crossed the mind of many a viewer in regards to Otome nanos) then I think they could have come up with something far better than this. The Tomoe aspect is not cliche, I suppose not (although the argument is definitely there for her simply being a headcase for the sake of a plot device when it comes to this development) but the way it played out was. They could have found hundreds of alternative ways for Tomoe to instigate this plot - but the one they specifically chose was for a specific result i.e. Arika/Sergay closeness - that over any other issue (incl. rape or showing how nuts Tomoe is)

Of course it's unlikely Arika would have been raped either way - but I do personally believe the entire thing was used by Sunrise to throw Arika and Sergay into another extreme experience whereupon ''Arika is able to confirm how much she likes Sergay'' (in whatever delusional state that may be)

And that they use rape to do that? Isn't that a little, hmm, crude at best? Are people going to watch this and think the wider issues were addressed or just remember the CHEESE that came afterwards?

If this is too 'cliche' for anyone, then they are watching the wrong show. This may well be the 'cement' for Arika in regards to her own knowledge of her 'feelings' for Sergay, however misplaced and misunderstood on her part they may be. We don't even know the REAL reason why she thinks she's falling for Sergay - we're just basing off what her own interpretation of her feelings are. We don't even know the REAL reason why she thinks she's falling for Sergay - we're just basing off what her own interpretation of her feelings are.
All this is very true, but you're missing my point on it. I don't care what the 'real' reason is. This probably makes me different to many others - I'm not in an uproar about Sergay/Arika itself, I don't care if the feelings are real or if they're not. I'm disappointed it's fallen to a plot that has developed from the melodramatic crap..urm conventions that dominate so many anime shows. They just stuck it in there for the sake of it - and you're willing to argue about the points that it serves - and I'm stuck in the mindset on the ones that it wastes.

Maybe I AM watching the wrong show then, although I never had a real problem with it up until last episode. I knew from the opening episode that the genki character would eventually be put through the wringer but I was hoping it wouldn't be through the obligatory dippy angle that this is.

The crazy thing is I'm not actually concerned about this Sergay/Arika thing - I like both characters and I did like their moments pre-13. And as cliche as it all is - I don't mind if it's interesting cliche lol. But sadly this isn't.

some of you are forgetting this is Arika's show. We're supposed to see what things she's going through, not what Mai Otome is going through.
Maybe that's my real problem with it then...

Tempest35

2006-01-12, 22:15

I'll post in here then, I should really be doing my work, naughty Tempest!!

Honestly? If they were going to address the rape issue (and it's definitely crossed the mind of many a viewer in regards to Otome nanos) then I think they could have come up with something far better than this. The Tomoe aspect is not cliche, I suppose not (although the argument is definitely there for her simply being a headcase for the sake of a plot device when it comes to this development) but the way it played out was. They could have found hundreds of alternative ways for Tomoe to instigate this plot - but the one they specifically chose was for a specific result i.e. Arika/Sergay closeness - that over any other issue (incl. rape or showing how nuts Tomoe is)

Of course it's unlikely Arika would have been raped either way - but I do personally believe the entire thing was used by Sunrise to throw Arika and Sergay into another extreme experience whereupon ''Arika is able to confirm how much she likes Sergay'' (in whatever delusional state that may be)

And that they use rape to do that? Isn't that a little, hmm, crude at best? Are people going to watch this and think the wider issues were addressed or just remember the CHEESE that came afterwards?

All this is very true, but you're missing my point on it. I don't care what the 'real' reason is. This probably makes me different to many others - I'm not in an uproar about Sergay/Arika itself, I don't care if the feelings are real or if they're not. I'm disappointed it's fallen to a plot that has developed from the melodramatic crap..urm conventions that dominate so many anime shows. They just stuck it in there for the sake of it - and you're willing to argue about the points that it serves - and I'm stuck in the mindset on the ones that it wastes.

Maybe I AM watching the wrong show then, although I never had a real problem with it up until last episode. I knew from the opening episode that the genki character would eventually be put through the wringer but I was hoping it wouldn't be through the obligatory dippy angle that this is.

The crazy thing is I'm not actually concerned about this Sergay/Arika thing - I like both characters and I did like their moments pre-13. And as cliche as it all is - I don't mind if it's interesting cliche lol. But sadly this isn't.

Maybe that's my real problem with it then...

Well, since my last, I've calmed down (Hey, my name ain't 'Tempest' for nothing :p) so maybe my posts will make more sense. I'll admit I was emotional when I made those remarks but I'm not sorry I made em. :p

Okay, my impression from your remarks is that you are against the 'rape' idea since it seems that it's just being used as an excuse by Sunrise to give Arika and Sergay screentime together?

Okay, the entire rape idea - I personally think that it was indeed nessacary. I mean, what else could be the worst thing to happen to an Otome? A rape is a very traumatic thing to happen to any woman - more so to an Otome-in-training because it just kills so much (ie. all the money spent, all the high expectations of your family, friends, your entire nation basically, all the glitz and the glamor that come with it). Being an Otome is a girl's dream in this world, a dream as Sergay put it in ep 3 as being 'one that many girls has shed tears over'. Girls cry over not being accepted into Garderobe - one would imagine how hard a girl would cry after she's beaten a lottery to even get into the Academy and then be raped halfway through the school year, nulifying EVERYTHING on top of humiliating her in the worst possible way. What good is an Otome is she ends up being raped?

For Arika to be raped like that, it would destroy her mind, body, and soul. This isn't just her dream, but its the only link she has that she knows about with her mother. Tomoe must have learned this and picked the WORST 'punishment' possible for a girl like Arika. This just goes to show how LOW Tomoe is willing to go and I think that anyone and everyone here can vouch for this being a very low and dirty tactic. I mean, what in the world was Tomoe thinking when she set this in motion? It would serve the girl RIGHT if Arika kicks her butt in Mai-Buttou.

I have a feeling that people are focusing on the wrong point here (the Sergay/Arika angle) and missing the shock value of what Tomoe actually did in setting this up. This is no child's game any more - this is serious in its own way. Shattering one's dreams and hopes for any future, to put them out of reach, beyond hope, but still keeping the person alive is, in many ways, a fate worse than death. If all people remember after seeing this is the 'Sergay/Arika CHEESE'...oh well, they've missed a few good points that they allowed to be overshadowed by their initial reactions. Besides, I don't have enough hammers to bash in everyone's heads who fail to see other reasons behind the SUNRISE-instigated 'Sergay/Arika' closeness besides the unfortunately popular "Sergay and Arika together? EWWW!" reaction that this is causing.

Sergay not only saved her life, he's now saved her dream of becoming an Otome, her hope in finding out about her mother, really, her reason for continuing to live on despite her own hardships. If she 'really' likes him because of that, well, I can't really blame the girl.

BBOvenGuy

2006-01-13, 16:00

It should be pointed out that throughout most of human history - and in fact, still in some parts of the world today - it would have been considered completely normal for a man Sergay's age to marry a girl Arika's age. And they would have been engaged for several years before that.

That's not meant to be an endorsement of the pairing. I merely mention it.

Personally, I think Arika's feelings for Sergay are simply an obstacle thrown in to complicate the plot. It makes Arika question her desire to become an otome. It sets her at odds with Nina. And who knows what other complications will come up once Sergay finds out about Arika's feelings (or Nina's, for that matter), or once Arika finds out that Sergay has been her benefactor.

Ultimately, though, the series will end up with Arika becoming a great otome - most likely Mashiro's otome. Either that, or she'll do something that remakes the entire otome system or replaces it with something else. That's her destiny. Sergay isn't.

Kieli

2006-01-13, 16:48

It should be pointed out that throughout most of human history - and in fact, still in some parts of the world today - it would have been considered completely normal for a man Sergay's age to marry a girl Arika's age. And they would have been engaged for several years before that.

That's not meant to be an endorsement of the pairing. I merely mention it.
I made mention of that here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=439712&postcount=372) and it's been brought up many times. In those cases, the girl to be married off often has no choice as to whom she is married to. In rare instances is a girl Arika's age to marry a man Sergay's age for love.

Ultimately, though, the series will end up with Arika becoming a great otome - most likely Mashiro's otome. Either that, or she'll do something that remakes the entire otome system or replaces it with something else. That's her destiny. Sergay isn't.
One can only hope that Sergay isn't her destiny. I'm already starting to question the sanity of Sunrise as it is. :eyebrow:

ArchDragon

2006-01-13, 20:46

One can only hope that Sergay isn't her destiny. I'm already starting to question the sanity of Sunrise as it is. :eyebrow:

Which is why I hope the man in Mai's legend was indeed Sergay (or whoever he was called at the time), since that will conveniently takes care of both SergayxArika and SergayxNina.

Erstin's explanation about Rena seems to take care off SergayxRena, unless it's just another red herring.
Since Rena actually get married, then her husband can't be Sergay.

GaboolRaider

2006-01-13, 22:36

I think you people forgot about Mai. Obviously Sergey was based on Tate~ So what stops the story from Mai coming back from where ever she is? Plus the whole mystery about who Arika's mother is and blah~

bluegarden

2006-01-13, 22:49

since episode 1 i knew something would happen with sergey and nina or arika, and since that episode sergey has nagged and pushed arika's buttons with every opportunity he gets. she's 15. he's the first men she has known. it was kinda obvious a crush would happen
so far, i dont have a problem with the crush, but i dont approve the relation. it's 10 year difference, and thats just the begginig of the reasons why nothing should happen.

sorry if they are any grammar errors, english is not my first language.:)

Eclipze

2006-01-13, 23:10

Actually, I think the main issue isn't that they are 10 years apart, but rather because of Arika's current age.

Say, if Arika is 25 and Segey is 35, there wouldn't be so much fuss than now.

pianocello

2006-01-14, 06:30

I prefer Arika in a yuri relationship.....

wingsky

2006-01-14, 07:48

Arika/Sergey is just plain. wierd. Not necessarily because of age, but just Arika's personality in MO just doesn't suit a relationship with Sergey, or infact with anyone. A crush is fine.. .but in ep 14 & 15's preview it looks like Arika is taking this crush thing too seriously... it doesn't suit her, in my opinion. She used to be the energetic one trying her best to become an Otome.. but now?

Maybe Arika has grown up a bit, but wasn't it a little quick?

kari-no-sugata

2006-01-14, 08:10

I'd find it funny if Arika realises her feeling for Sergay aren't "love" (or at least, not like Nina or Akane). *shrug* All this raging from the fans for nothing. I mean, people are making a bigger deal of what MIGHT happen with Arika and Sergay than what IS happening with Arika and Shizuru (who just can't seem to keep her hands off). Still, I do expect Sergay to become a reason for Arika and Nina to have a deadly serious fight at some point, but maybe it'll be more in Nina's mind at that point.

From the preview, it looks like later in the ep Arika is talking with Mashiro (who also seems to be suffering over new-found love) and Arika seems somewhat back to normal...

Eclipze

2006-01-14, 08:26

I'd find it funny if Arika realises her feeling for Sergay aren't "love" (or at least, not like Nina or Akane). *shrug* All this raging from the fans for nothing. I mean, people are making a bigger deal of what MIGHT happen with Arika and Sergay than what IS happening with Arika and Shizuru (who just can't seem to keep her hands off). Still, I do expect Sergay to become a reason for Arika and Nina to have a deadly serious fight at some point, but maybe it'll be more in Nina's mind at that point.

Well, I think people here rather see ShizuruXArika than ArikaXSergey.:heh:

Tempest35

2006-01-14, 09:45

Nah, once Nina adds up just how many women are involved with her 'Daddy', she'll have a mental overload. :D

As for Shizuru...well, that's Shizuru...for lack of a better term. -_-; Arika likes to grab and hold onto people so Shizuru doing it to her probably isn't all that much of a shock other than Shizuru being such an important person and a grownup in a place where, other than Sergay, Aoi, and Sa-kun in the palace, all the adults around her act reserved.

...and I don't know which fight to anticipate more - a Arika vs Nina match, or a Mai vs Natsuki match.

babuji

2006-01-14, 10:13

Well, I think people here rather see ShizuruXArika than ArikaXSergey.:heh:

I didn't know people would prefer yuri these days.

kaitou-kid

2006-01-14, 11:07

I didn't know people would prefer yuri these days.
i do, i do... :D

babuji

2006-01-14, 11:11

i do, i do... :D

Hehehehe, I prefer yaoi.

duster_Fukku

2006-01-14, 11:42

Hehehehe, I prefer yaoi.

I prefer both.:frustrated:

babuji

2006-01-14, 11:48

I prefer both.:frustrated:

:heh: wahahaha. Then any anime would suit you.:heh:

Kieli

2006-01-14, 12:02

I prefer both.:frustrated:
:topicoff: I wanted to get off topic for one second to completely admire duster's avatar. We will now return to the regularly scheduled programming :D

Eclipze

2006-01-14, 12:11

I didn't know people would prefer yuri these days.
Another reasoning would be that there are more Shizuru lovers than Sergey lovers.

Anything Shizuru onee-sama likes, Shizuru fans will follow!:heh:

Kieli

2006-01-14, 12:19

Anything Shizuru onee-sama likes, Shizuru fans will follow!:heh:
AMEN! And there's something wrong with that, why?? :heh:

babuji

2006-01-14, 12:23

AMEN! And there's something wrong with that, why?? :heh:

Nothing wrong actually, but he was trying to tell me why so many like yuri now days...I guess that Shizuru was the one who make all of the fans bend to yuri anime. Wahaha:heh:

Eclipze

2006-01-14, 12:27

Nothing wrong actually, but he was trying to tell me why so many like yuri now days...I guess that Shizuru was the one who make all of the fans bend to yuri anime. Wahaha:heh:
You have been quoted for truth.;)

Oh, if you watch Shuffle!, you will also see another yuri-magnet scene. Its on someone's avatar, if you can find it. (its the last episode credits. :heh:)

babuji

2006-01-14, 12:38

:topicoff: You have been quoted for truth.;)

Oh, if you watch Shuffle!, you will also see another yuri-magnet scene. Its on someone's avatar, if you can find it. (its the last episode credits. :heh:)

I glad I have qoute you for truth..and yeah, I have watch Shuffle until episode 13...but stop due to lack of time...But that anime was harem if I am not wrong.

Maybe it did change to yuri later on..I have't watch it since.:topicoff:

Eclipze

2006-01-14, 12:55

:topicoff:

I glad I have qoute you for truth..and yeah, I have watch Shuffle until episode 13...but stop due to lack of time...But that anime was harem if I am not wrong.

Maybe it did change to yuri later on..I have't watch it since.:topicoff:
Yea, but it was just a small yuri scene at the ending credits. Too bad it was squeezed into a small window though.:(

Sia puts on lips make-up for Kaede, moves backwards probably to get a better view, and falls down, with Kaede falling on her, and accidentally kissing her.

There was a seemingly fair exchange of saliver

...:heh:

babuji

2006-01-14, 13:05

Yea, but it was just a small yuri scene at the ending credits. Too bad it was squeezed into a small window though.:(

Sia puts on lips make-up for Kaede, moves backwards probably to get a better view, and falls down, with Kaede falling on her, and accidentally kissing her.

There was a seemingly fair exchange of saliver

...:heh:

Wow, thanks for the info. Gonna get the sub for episode 26.

Yazakura

2006-01-15, 12:26

If Sergay actually has the maul to take advantage of 14 year olds, that's when I stop watching the series and emerse into a fandom kingdom. Couldn't any of you imagine Nina and Arika in a relationship? An old man with a fourteen year old....uber creepy and plain wrong. I'm more into the father daughter thing they've got going on. But...if Nina finds out Sergay's been supporting Arika with her tuition, she'd be crushed.

Tempest35

2006-01-15, 16:32

Sergay's not that old. :heh: The king who Akane was going to swear to - now HE was old. Shizuru has more opprotunities to do something to/with Arika than Sergay does anyway but she's not.

Yazakura

2006-01-15, 16:49

In the 14th ep, *spoiler peeps!* Nina actually admits to Eristen that Arika makes her worry all the time. Doesn't that say something else about what could become of them? :p It was a very cute ep.

bluegarden

2006-01-15, 20:57

sergey is going to turn her down nicely. i hope so:)

We've learned from my hime that previews can be very misleading, so since i didin't see the kiss in the preview i know is not going to happen (the only kiss in hime was the tate/shiho and we saw it on the preview). Arika will try, and he will poke her in the forehead. something like that.

deathsvengeance

2006-01-15, 21:34

For people saying its too fast for Arika to fall in love with Sergey, from ep 10-ep 14... think back to when you were Arika's age, and how hard and fast you'd "crush" on someone... I remember when I was that age, I was just like that. Besides, its hard to get a time frame in the MO world, they don't exactly give a very good order to things.

I'm not against the Sergey X Arika paring, but I really doubt it'll go anywhere.. I mean, he knows Arika is the true heir to windbloom.. even if he does like her, he won't be able to act on it, and she won't understand.

chamelean75

2006-01-15, 21:41

No matter what Sunrise has in store for Arika, there is no saying that after she does her time as a great otome, who says she can't hook up with Sergey? Afterall, seems like a lot of otomes serve their time as one and then fall in love and give it up. Hell, if their love lasts until then, I say why not!

lana3007

2006-01-15, 23:48

I will say that when the idea of Sergey and Arika was first introduced, I did get a couple of shivers up my back. BUT the more I see the feelings developed the more I am beginning to get used to the idea. It's not an ideal pairing, but it certainly is getting quite well developed. I perfectly understand the reasons for Arika's feelings for Sergey, and I can almost sense something of a reasonable feeling that he might have for her (which seems mostly paternal at the moment). Will something come out of it? Well, remember that we are watching Mai Otome! After all, Mai Hime pulled off having a nun give up her position to live with a man, so having a relationship with this kind of age gap is not out of their league. And if they manage to justify it by developing the characters' feelings, I will accept it.

Icemera

2006-01-16, 03:01

Actually, I think the main issue isn't that they are 10 years apart, but rather because of Arika's current age.

Say, if Arika is 25 and Segey is 35, there wouldn't be so much fuss than now.

Ditto.

I like Sergey so far. The only thing I don't like about this possible relationship is that Arika has become annoying ever since she realizes her crush. I was just thinking that if Sunrise really needs this plot, why can't they make her crushing more likable. Like... somewhat cute and innocent (for a 15-year-old girl like Arika). This is too dramatic for this girl. It feels a bit off. IMHO, they could have saved "Arika going all teary and getting reluctant to pursue her dream" episode until the end of the series even. To show the character's growth or something. Hmm, maybe Sunrise just wants to bring this up and will end it soon? Because Arika becoming an Otome is the whole point of this series?

What the heck, I still hope Sergey will deal with this crushing nicely. :heh:

asds

2006-01-16, 13:50

Yo ! I am new here and as I was reading this discussion I have decided to take part.

But first thing first ....about the jey in eps 14 it looks more like a kain chain for each member of the council , as the bird at least for me symbolises the pigeon with a plant , as we know pigeon is a sign of peace.

Personally I don't have anything against Arika X sergey pairing. Putting that the guy is 30 the girl 15 it's still a go,I mean even IF there will be a pairing like this later in the series IT DOESN'T mean that they will declaire they love and start having intense relationship. Situation like this is now quiet common and let's not forget that about 100 yrs ago situation like this was a norm

About what's gonna happen in eps 15 I think that Sergey will refuse Arika as he doesn't want to make her choose becoming an otome and him , but propably he will tell her that he sees her only as a child / daughter. That , I presume will be the reason for Arika's cry , but still what the hell about her and Mashiro crying? Smt maybe about getting their hearts broken or smt like that .

And I hope that MAi will come back soon.

And on the last note this green haired chick who tries to get rid of Arika isn't she getting more and more dangerouse?I mean she sent some thughs to RAPE the girl! I can see know what SHizuru meant when she said that they were both the same. But that brown haired - undrling chick- she is getting soon a mental breakdown, Oh i see it soo coming........]

That are only my presumptions , as we know preview can be veryy misleading

duster_Fukku

2006-01-16, 17:39

Seriously, the green hair, maybe force her to watch the entire MH will changer her actual enemy. But it would probably freak me out if we get to learn, one day, how much Tomoe learned about Shizuru. She certainly stalked at those crimson eyes a lot more than the fans on this fourm. -jealous or not.....- I feel bad for Arika...

Oh my, we are talking about Sergey and Arika here. Think logically, I don't think Sunrise is gonna make this story an entire yuri anime, KnM. Even though Arika said that herself in the trailer. So from that, I don't mind Sergey and Akira paring. Sounds quiet bad, though, but one thing I cannot bare is how Nina is going to take after she finds out. Let's hope the second OP can show us a little more... neh, maybe not. But if that preview came true to what we thought..... disregard how I like it nor not, I will brust out some scary laughters.

Tempest35

2006-01-16, 18:01

Well, you can talk about other pairings here too. ^^; No real restraint just Sergay and 'Arinko'.

Y'know, I do want to see something about just how close Mai and Natsuki were in their Coral/Pearl days.

Tremalkinger

2006-01-16, 19:18

Y'know, I do want to see something about just how close Mai and Natsuki were in their Coral/Pearl days.

Since the Fire String Ruby storybook doesn't include a chapter on how the Otome in question was eaten by a giant purple six headed squid, I think we can safely say it wasn't that close.

Eclipze

2006-01-16, 20:14

Since the Fire String Ruby storybook doesn't include a chapter on how the Otome in question was eaten by a giant purple six headed squid, I think we can safely say it wasn't that close.
*Kiyohime*, rofl!:heh:

Nightengale

2006-01-16, 21:25

Does no one here like Nina x Sergay? :upset:

<-------Nina/Sergay fanboy

Catgirls

2006-01-16, 21:36

Does no one here like Nina x Sergay? :upset: I think there are two problems with Nina x Sergay.

The first problem is that I don't have a problem with that.

The second problem is that "any-of-the-younger-girls x Sergay" is going to be a problem to many here due to the possible age differences and the fact that Sergay has emotional influence over some of them (older man manipulating younger girls to do his biding). Plus, we really don’t know if Sergay is one of the “good guys” now do we. The way Sunrise like to twist plots, all bets are off as to who is good and who is truly bad.

Honestly, "Sergay x anyone" will only lead to unnecessary internal violence.

Eclipze

2006-01-16, 21:39

True, and I get the feeling that Midori's group (Asward?) isn't really bad afterall, especially when I saw the place Midori apparently was living at. (somewhat like desert town, with somechildren playing). Something like "robin hood" kind of feeling, fighting for the poor in her town etc.

Although the Arika/cliff incident is somewhat speculational...

mintyfresh

2006-01-17, 04:14

Their relationship makes me watch the show with a fury unbeknownst to man.
This made me laugh..:heh:

Mmm, anyhow.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but somehow I don't think Arika is actually in love with Sergay. Now, hear me out, this is a... bit of a weird theory..:heh:

Perhaps the only reason why Arika's ben acting this way is because she's still connected to Mashiro through the contract they made in episode 7 (oh, I hope this hasn't been mentioned before.. if it has, just ignore this post).
But really, she's only been acting this way over the past few episodes... possibly simultaneously with when Mashiro fell for Takumi. And now this downcast, mopish side of Arika that she showed throught episode 14 parallels with how long Mashiro's been cooped up in her room, so...

I dunno.

That's just the impression I got from reading the next episode synopsis from the webpage, anyhow. ^^;

But on the other hand, as for what's going on in the next episode preview where it looks like Sergay and Arika kiss... Err.. well, I'm leaving that one alone.

Pazu

2006-01-17, 05:05

Mmm, anyhow.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or not, but somehow I don't think Arika is actually in love with Sergay. Now, hear me out, this is a... bit of a weird theory..:heh:

Perhaps the only reason why Arika's ben acting this way is because she's still connected to Mashiro through the contract they made in episode 7 (oh, I hope this hasn't been mentioned before.. if it has, just ignore this post).
But really, she's only been acting this way over the past few episodes... possibly simultaneously with when Mashiro fell for Takumi. And now this downcast, mopish side of Arika that she showed throught episode 14 parallels with how long Mashiro's been cooped up in her room, so...

I dunno.

That's just the impression I got from reading the next episode synopsis from the webpage, anyhow. ^^;

But on the other hand, as for what's going on in the next episode preview where it looks like Sergay and Arika kiss... Err.. well, I'm leaving that one alone.
I put few words about it here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=446144&postcount=322)
These two things fit together - maybe Arika's crush i s so...spectacular, because is also influenced by Mashiro...
well, we will see...or not :)

asds

2006-01-17, 09:46

well , propably the next episode is gonna show what's gonna happen between them.

And as I read above about ninaxsergay that is sick for me!! I mean the guy was raising her as his daughter for 6 yrs, I mean come on! Enough of incest stories.....

As for Arika's love , taking in the fact about " grandmum didn't teach" plus all those love problems around her she may have misunderstood those feelings.

And about Sergey , remember what happened in eps 10 I think, when she had a fever at one point he started to see her as a woman and not child

lone_wolf

2006-01-17, 20:21

Tempest35

2006-01-17, 22:04

ArchDragon

2006-01-17, 22:35

I'm sure Nina's well aware of that herself...:D Still, I think that the latest ep has shot down most 'SergayxRena = baby' theories...^^;

She held her Otome title for 10 years as a Meister. If she graduated at 17 like Akane did...she'd be 27 when lil 'Romeo', I mean, Sergay was in Windbloom at age 11. Now, if a good looking 27 year old Otome can't find a decent enough man around her age that she has to go to an 11 year old foreign exchange student for some lovin' there's something definitely wrong in Windbloom. Add on another 15 years and she's in her 40's.

Akane is 16, I think, she's only 1 year older than Arika cs.

If Sergay is indeed 25 now, according to one article, then he would be 9 prior to Rena's pregnancy, when he had pictures with her.

But other than the chars ages, you're right, the fact that Rena actually got married completely shot down SergayxRena.

Sorry, but I'm thinking that Mai is his best bet from here on in. :D b Although I wouldn't mind if he tried his hand at Natsuki. ^^ Pimp like him, he can handle it. If he got away with that (I mean surviving an irrate Shizuru), I'd worship the man. :D

That was a priviledge that he passed on in Mai-HiME manga.

Tempest35

2006-01-18, 05:49

That was a priviledge that he passed on in Mai-HiME manga.

In regards to the 'spoiler' on the HiME manga, passed 'on' or passed 'up'...? :heh: I'm sorry - the "You are my Slave-kun!!!" just floored me right there. That and the 'Birthday Present that Never Happened' - thank goodness, the ShizNat fans would have been up in arms over that. :eyespin:

Now, I wonder who the lucky sob - err, man - who Rena married. And what will poor Ni~na-chan do when she finds out that the inheritor of the Blue Sky Sapphire is none other than herself:

"But I don't look good in pink~! Let Arika keep it, please! I really don't care anymore!"

Sad to say, I think that MO needs another 'strong' male character who's relatively single too. ^^; HiME had Reito and Musashi to contrast to Yuuichi but who does Sergay really have as any 'competition' in Otome?
Nagi's out of the question, especially when he's on his 'I'm evil now, don't bother me' streak.
Takumi's strong in Otome, but we know he's not single. Akira will kill you in your sleep. :D

ranchan13

2006-01-18, 07:53

I prefer Arika in a yuri relationship.....Speaking of, I've been working on an AMV you might like. I've found probably the most fitting Yuri partner for good ol' Arinko, and that I would believe is Mashiro.

I'll post a link to the AMV when I'm done with it.

Eclipze

2006-01-18, 08:13

Speaking of, I've been working on an AMV you might like. I've found probably the most fitting Yuri partner for good ol' Arinko, and that I would believe is Mashiro.

I'll post a link to the AMV when I'm done with it.
You know....if somehow theres a new twist that Mashiro and Arinko-chan are sisters(highly improbably given the current info)...that'd be yuri and incest.:heh:

ranchan13

2006-01-18, 08:36

You know....if somehow theres a new twist that Mashiro and Arinko-chan are sisters(highly improbably given the current info)...that'd be yuri and incest.:heh:
You know, that'd make my AMV even more amusing.
Now, if only I can find a good sequence in which they kiss, mouth to mouth.

Edit:
AMV finished, link below

I Need Love (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members/members_videoinfo.php?v=104208)

Bloody

2006-01-19, 20:41

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3853/1137688907502833e4xx7eq.th.jpg (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1137688907502833e4xx7eq.jpg)

In this image ... I noticed that Aoi and Chie that they were always together ... and I was wondering if... what are they doing (together) at the middle/this time of the night ? Do you think its just a friend or More than friends?? :confused:

roon

2006-01-19, 20:48

Chie tells Nao that she was on a date. :)

kazekiri

2006-01-19, 20:58

Do you think its just a friend or More than friends?? :confused:Hmmm, it's the Ambiguously Gay Duo so... I'm guessing 'more than'. :D

Ronin Aquila

2006-01-19, 21:08

Chie is the resident skirt chaser, no doubt. :p

Eclipze

2006-01-19, 21:15

Looks like we've another yuri pairing besides ShizNat.:heh:

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-19, 21:41

Looks like we've another yuri pairing besides ShizNat.:heh:
It took you that long? :heh:

They've been a pair since Hime. They were the only Hime yuri pair who actually h@d s3X!:heh:

Eclipze

2006-01-19, 21:44

They've been a pair since Hime. They were the only Hime yuri pair who actually h@d s3X!:heh:
They did? :twitch:

Well, I usually idenify yuri/normal pairs if they, um, blush alot. And I dont remember Chie and Aoi blushing in Hime...:heh:

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-19, 21:57

They did? :twitch:

Well, I usually idenify yuri/normal pairs if they, um, blush alot. And I dont remember Chie and Aoi blushing in Hime...:heh:
It's in one of the bonus sections in the DVDs. You see the two of them naked in the morning, sharing a bed. Though the dialogue suggests that they decided it's best if they don't continue as anymore than friends... pity.

Since the Mai Otome universe is far more Shoujo-ai friendly, it appears that they actually go out on dates with each other properly this time.

lilith1013

2006-01-19, 22:01

Check out Episode 26 of Mai Home at 12:30 on the avi. They seem mighty close to me.

:D

Bloody

2006-01-19, 22:04

0_0 , *cough* *cough* now I see everything :D , thanks

Starks

2006-01-19, 22:36

I'm not in the least surprised... Garderobe is a breeding ground for lesbianism.

Eclipze

2006-01-19, 22:36

Check out Episode 26 of Mai Home at 12:30 on the avi. They seem mighty close to me.

:D
O____O.:twitch:

Oh god, I actually missed out on that...

Owaranai Destiny

2006-01-19, 22:39

I'm not in the least surprised... Garderobe is a breeding ground for lesbianism.

That's quite logical, considering that one of the rules is not to fall in love. It is simply assumed that the girls studying there cannot fall in love with members of the opposite sex, so I guess the pairing seems quite ehem...logical.:heh:

Eclipze

2006-01-19, 22:41

Starks

2006-01-19, 22:42

WOW... That is scary.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-19, 23:21

Check out Episode 26 of Mai Home at 12:30 on the avi. They seem mighty close to me.

:D
Can anyone offer a screen-shoot? I don't remember that at all... Thanks!

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-01-20, 00:03

That's quite logical, considering that one of the rules is not to fall in love. It is simply assumed that the girls studying there cannot fall in love with members of the opposite sex, so I guess the pairing seems quite ehem...logical.:heh:

No their allowed to love, just not with guys so yes, it's basically asking for it.

Can anyone offer a screen-shoot? I don't remember that at all... Thanks!

If you have 26 on you, right before the the girls smash the HIME Star, we see Takumi, Nao's mom, etc. The girls are there with Aoi behind Chie and Chie with a phone taking pictures.

Oh and Aoi's hands are on Chie's shoulders in a very caring fashion :heh:

lilith1013

2006-01-20, 00:07

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f274/lilith1013/MyHime26.jpg

There ya go Valiant. :)

aikming

2006-01-20, 00:22

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f274/lilith1013/MyHime26.jpg

There ya go Valiant. :)

Cool, i forgot that screen already. U managed to remember and find it.

Bloody

2006-01-20, 03:54

How about ... Chie and Aoi pics?? :heh: lets make this one :heh:

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-20, 04:07

How about ... Chie and Aoi pics?? :heh: lets make this one :heh:
The blog entry that has the screen captures...
http://moyism.com/misuzu/2005/04/mai-hime-dvd2-extra-ii#more-172
The website tells you more about it...
scroll down to the bottom to see the pictures.

p.s. The on-screen text had Chie saying "Let's forget about last night ever happened..."

... yeah, fat chance. ^_^

Bloody

2006-01-20, 04:16

Hey!! thanks a lot ^_^ , that was *cough* *cough* gud thing that happened to them XD

ranchan13

2006-01-20, 05:26

ChiOe, my second favorite Yuri pairing in the Mai universe after ShizNat

Other pairings you might notice in the Mai universe (which is quite Shoujo-Ai friendly) includes the following

Mai x Mikoto
Haruka x Yukino
Midori x Yoko
Mashiro x Arika (soon as they boot Takumi and Sergei aside)

Sian

2006-01-20, 05:32

in fact with Haruka x Yukino, then if you wacth Yukino's special then you notice that Yukino have a love-like feeling towards Haruka :) and it aren't all just admirering (beh)

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-20, 05:41

in fact with Haruka x Yukino, then if you wacth Yukino's special then you notice that Yukino have a love-like feeling towards Haruka :) and it aren't all just admirering (beh)
Well, as far as Mai-Hime is concerned, it can't be helped that Yukino fear rejection from Haruka if she ever made her feelings known. Since she IS the passive half of the relationship, the two of them aren't going anywhere romantically until Haruka decided she is interested. It's a pity, but MH Yukino is pretty much doomed the same way Smithers is in The Simpsons.

Of course, MO Yukino/Haruka is another matter.;) :D

Regardless, I consider Aoi/Chie the only true Yuri couple in MH. The others, including Shizu/Nat, are only couples at the earliest stages, and would take time to become truly romantic.

##########
And as I said before about Yukino, the MO versions of all the MH Shoujo-ai couples appear to be well established, and I am happy for them.:)

Matrim

2006-01-20, 05:46

in fact with Haruka x Yukino, then if you wacth Yukino's special then you notice that Yukino have a love-like feeling towards Haruka

Or you can just see it all the time in the series itself. Especially in episode 13 in which Yukino had that piece of paper or whatever that she wanted to tie on the altar as the other students did in order to get the object of their feelings. but hid it from Haruka who really didn't like the idea. Who wants to bet that it was Haruka's name that was written ot it? :)

Sian

2006-01-20, 05:48

think the odds are rather low when betting on it :p

Naked Fish

2006-01-20, 06:08

Could've been Fatty-chan. Never know.

Bloody

2006-01-21, 03:38

you know ... I was touched about this scene :(

Nina and Erstin (I know it was an off topic but we can talked about shoujo-ai here :D )

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6185/11378299859421bf.jpg

ladholyman

2006-01-21, 14:37

I have to say this is one of the reasons I sub Otome. Gotta love lesbian tendencies.

GracefulAmethyst

2006-01-22, 02:31

i think Arika and Sergay could get together, oh so i hope! im pretty sure Sergay cars for Arika just a lil more than friendly wise ... But that mai thing ... really confuses me maybe hell end up with her instead.. that would be just crappy we havent even seen her once .. i love mai but i prefer ArikaXSergay:love:

Nightengale

2006-01-22, 02:48

This (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=27694) exist for a reason.

And Nina x Sergay > Arika x Sergay.

SANITY

2006-01-22, 03:03

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-22, 03:53

when arika tries something in ep 15, sergey and arika are on a roof surrounded by bars (metal ones) if sergey continues with a relationship with arika he can expect to see a lot more bars (again metal ones) where he's going and you can bet there wont be any young female beauties in there, though that doesnt necessarily mean he cant have a relationship with the people he will meet there.
You seemed to be a little confused...
(ep 15 episode spoiler)
Sergay's boss and leader of his country, Negi, gave him direct permission (in writing, no less!) to seduce the "true princess of Windbloom", if that means they (Atari) can obtain control of her. Sergay would have likely been given a medal and promotion if he responded to Arika's advances, NOT a jail cell. We don't yet know WHY Segay rejected her; is it because he doesn't agree with the idea (he doesn't HAVE romantic feelings for her), or is it because he DOES love her that way, but that's exactly why he rejected her in order to protect her from the evil schemes of Negi?

Timeless Enigma

2006-01-22, 04:00

This thread will likely get merged into the Romance discussion thread, but oh well...

I think it's somewhat clear that Sergay likes Arika... in a non-fatherly way as well, but he chose not to act on it.

I think the reason he stopped though is not so clear cut, but the main point is he was doing what was best for Arika.
1. He didn't want to be the key factor in Arika not fulfilling her dream to become an Otome or to cut it short.
2. Although no evidence supports this, perhaps he was in a similar situation before and wanted to avoid the pain again (referring to possible Sergay x Mai).
3. He felt he had to foil Nagi's plan of turning the princess into his pawn.
4. She's underage/age difference.

Actually option 4 seems to be the least likely/important factor.

But it really makes me wonder how this scene would have turned out if that 3rd factor wasn't there (Arika supposedly being the princess).

Anyway, I think it'll be difficult for another chance to crop up unless of course misfortunate strikes again and circumstances dictate that Sergay and Arika stuck with eachoher again.

Remember these are just my thoughts and I'm not the most glib when it comes to analyzing a story and character motives. I usually just watch for enjoyment and let others do the speculation.

SANITY

2006-01-22, 04:01

not confused misunderstood, i was tryin to say sergey should be put in jail if'n he actually did it like he was supposed to, sorry
NAGI IS VERY EVIL ISNT HE

Nightengale

2006-01-22, 04:09

not confused misunderstood, i was tryin to say sergey should be put in jail if'n he actually did it like he was supposed to, sorry
NAGI IS VERY EVIL ISNT HE

Since this is a series targetted to the Japanese demographic audience, I'll pull a swerve and say...

He won't, because Arika is not underage. Japan's age of consent is 13. So, Sergay cannot be charged for statutory rape. Marriage however, is a different issue.

Eclipze

2006-01-22, 04:26

Since this is a series targetted to the Japanese demographic audience, I'll pull a swerve and say...

He won't, because Arika is not underage. Japan's age of consent is 13. So, Sergay cannot be charged for statutory rape. Marriage however, is a different issue.

EDIT: nvm, DeuceTrick has more accurate information than my "hearsay".

And from the article, apparently DeuceTrick bolded the weakness of the law system as well..

DeuceTrick

2006-01-22, 04:26

He won't, because Arika is not underage. Japan's age of consent is 13. So, Sergay cannot be charged for statutory rape. Marriage however, is a different issue.

Untrue.
http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm
Check out the bold parts. (Edit: In short, under eighteen and your ass is toast.)

... Of course, this is Otome Planet, not Earth. So who knows? It might be acceptable there.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-22, 04:55

Untrue.
http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm
Check out the bold parts. (Edit: In short, under eighteen and your ass is toast.)

... Of course, this is Otome Planet, not Earth. So who knows? It might be acceptable there.
As I said, Sergay got written permission. If he did anything, he can blame Negi, his ruler, for giving him the order.

PuRpLe CryStaL

2006-01-22, 05:04

Nonono! I don't want Arika x Sergay pairing in the end! Sergay thought Arika was Rena's daughter, thus he sponsored her in her education & showered her with birthday gifts. I like how he has played his role as her guardian without exposing his identity to Arika. I'm not a Sergay fangirl but I respect the way he handles his love for Rena by not mixing the kind of love he has for Arika. Seems to me that he treated Arika and Nina with fatherly love before realizing that Arika developed feelings for him. Arika on the other hand should focus on preventing wars from breaking out and protect the people in Windbloom. She should channel her love to protecting the lives of the people, no more romance for now.

Ronin Aquila

2006-01-22, 08:12

It's a pity, but MH Yukino is pretty much doomed the same way Smithers is in The Simpsons.

Though unlike Smithers, Yukino-Chan actually has hope of a life afterwards because she is a warm, sweet, kind, caring and loving person, whom one day will bump into someone who can love her for who she is and give her happiness. :)

And plus, she is SO much cuter than Smithers ever have and ever will be. I wanna take her home!! :)

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-22, 08:39

Though unlike Smithers, Yukino-Chan actually has hope of a life afterwards because she is a warm, sweet, kind, caring and loving person, whom one day will bump into someone who can love her for who she is and give her happiness. :)

And plus, she is SO much cuter than Smithers ever have and ever will be. I wanna take her home!! :)
Sorry, Ronin, but I think Yukio's mind is made up. She would follow Haruka wherever she goes and whatever she chose to do. You (or any other random John or Jane) can't make her happy, because her happiness involves Haruka. Some things are just the way they are.

Ronin Aquila

2006-01-22, 09:12

Figure of speech sir, just to emphasise how cute she is. For example, sure, I would like to take Stella-Chan from Gundam Seed Destiny home, but I value the lining of my jugular enough to refrain from doing so.

After all, I wouldn't want to get my throat cut when I invite my friends over for role-playing night. ( "Roll The Dice." "DIcE? I DON'T WANNA DIE!!" :heh: )

Same with Yukino-Chan. Sure, she's the perfect little sister, but she's free to pursue her destiny in life.

Dosen't make her any less nice and huggable or her smile and voice any less angelic though. :p

KarinAoi

2006-01-22, 14:00

Kieli

2006-01-22, 14:25

I kind of like the idea that there might be more between Sergay and Arika than just friendship or father&daughter feelings.

Maybe this age gap between these two does not affect me the way it affects other fans. I think the cause for this is the last novel we had to read at school. The novel shows a relationship between a woman (32 years old) and a boy (16 years old). The story took place a few years after the second world war... but that is an other story.

Just because it does happen, doesn't mean that it should. Like I've said in previous threads, Arika does not have the maturity, wherewithal nor experience to be in a romantic relationship with a man older than her by almost half. Although I disagree with how people translate his "North Hound" moniker, he is obviously a man who's been around the block. To take advantage of one who really has no concept of romantic love and what it entails other than the rampage of unfamiliar feelings she's going through at the moment, is inexcusable IMHO. Like it has been mentioned, it's statutory rape. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it. Even if she understood the consequences of a relationship with an older man, I'd still strongly disapprove. An older woman going after a younger male is just as reprehensible IMHO, so I don't know how by reading that story it helped you form the opinion that this pairing is somehow acceptable.

Yazakura

2006-01-22, 14:32

I really hope not. Don't you remember what happens to an Otome if they get involved with the opposite sex? They'd loose their chance at becoming one. Plus, an underage girl with a middle aged man is just....:twitch:

KarinAoi

2006-01-22, 14:38

An older woman going after a younger male is just as reprehensible IMHO, so I don't know how by reading that story it helped you form the opinion that this pairing is somehow acceptable.

How can I put my opinion straight...hmm...
I think it is not against the law, when they only share feelings for each other.

And btw... I would prefer if you don't use the word "rape" so casually. I think Sergey will never do something like that to Arika.

Don't you remember what happens to an Otome if they get involved with the opposite sex?

What's with Rena?

Kieli

2006-01-22, 14:44

How can I put my opinion straight...hmm...
I think it is not against the law, when they only share feelings for each other.
I never said it was, I said acting on it is against the law. Big difference. I expressed my distaste for him sharing romantic feelings for a girl half his age.
And btw... I would prefer if you don't use the word "rape" so casually. I think Sergey will never do something like that to Arika.
As a former victim of rape, I do NOT use this word casually and a) you don't have the right to admonish me about it and b) I am quoting the LAW and what they call this sort of thing. If it disturbs you, maybe you should think about that before condoning the pairing. Because if both act on their feelings, that is what it is, simply put. The law states that it is statutory rape (http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm). Read the previous posts. One cannot have sensitive feelings about calling a spade a spade. That is the reality of things and if you can't handle the reality, then maybe you should rethink your position. Since Sergay was given permission by Nagi to do whatever it took to make the Princess of Windbloom the pawn of Artai, even seduction, he could very well have done just that and would've been justified and exonerated by his Grand Duke. He may even still do what he was ordered. That has yet to be seen or determined.

And I think you should know what you're dealing with, since obviously you don't:

http://www.nsvrc.org/resources/types_sa/statutory.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

KarinAoi

2006-01-22, 14:47

You know... it's an anime.

And just for your information... I'm also a former victim of rape.

Kieli

2006-01-22, 14:51

You know... it's an anime.

And just for your information... I'm also a former victim of rape.
Just because it's an anime doesn't mean that I have to agree with certain elements within said anime. And I don't quite often.

My condolences about your prior predicament. But I'm not throwing the word around lightly. As you can see in the links provided by myself and others, this is NOT a subject or pairing to be taken lightly.

ArchDragon

2006-01-22, 15:01

Untrue.
http://www.ageofconsent.com/japan.htm
Check out the bold parts. (Edit: In short, under eighteen and your ass is toast.)

... Of course, this is Otome Planet, not Earth. So who knows? It might be acceptable there.

Actually, he was right, check this line:

Age of consent for sexual activity
The Article 177 of the Penal Code puts the age of consent for sexual actitvity at thirteen (13) years.

So although 13-17 year olds are still considered "children", it's legal to have sexual activities with them.

In the US, the Federal Gov. set it at 17, although I think individual states are allowed set it even higher.

As for the Otome planet, I think it's closer to Japan than US.
Since noone brings up the age issue when a 20 year old (Kazuya) asked a 16 year old (Akane) to elope with him.

Kieli

2006-01-22, 15:15

Actually, he was right, check this line:

So although 13-17 year olds are still considered "children", it's legal to have sexual activities with them.

In the US, the Federal Gov. set it at 17, although I think individual states are allowed set it even higher.

As for the Otome planet, I think it's closer to Japan than US.
Since noone brings up the age issue when a 20 year old (Kazuya) asked a 16 year old (Akane) to elope with him.
However, you missed this line further down the page:
Article 34 of the Child Welfare Law
" Any person shall not do any of the following acts : …(6) act of inducing a minor to be engaged in sexual activities … "
Inducing a minor who is less than eighteen (18) to be engaged in sexual activities is subject to punishment under the Child Welfare Law. According to Japanese Court cases, " inducing a minor to be engaged in sexual activities means an act of working on a minor to have intercourse or analogous conducts ( including oral and anal sex) with him or her, or with someone else by exering influence on the minor virually.

And this line further down still:
Important Update: 5-19-99 -- Japan passes new law prohibiting sex with anyone under 18! This was the first report we received. Only thing -- it was slightly misleading ... the law only applied to paying for sex to anyone under 18!
From what I understand, however, each prefecture makes it's own determination regarding age of consent age limits and most prefectures have ages 16 or 18 as the legal age limit.

ArchDragon

2006-01-22, 15:20

However, you missed this line further down the page:

You're right, I missed that.

But then, what does their legal age of consent mean?
In the US, once someone became "legal" age-wise, they're free for all.
What does it mean to be "legal" in Japan?

Kieli

2006-01-22, 15:28

You're right, I missed that.

But then, what does their legal age of consent mean?
In the US, once someone became "legal" age-wise, they're free for all.
What does it mean to be "legal" in Japan?
I. Ages for legal purposes
Article 2 - Definitions
For the purpose of this Law, a "child" means a person under the age of 18 years.
I'm assuming that it means the same thing as it does here in the US...that the person has enough information and experience to know what they are consenting to. The legality has to do with the statutes regarding age of consent written in their constitution and the statutes made by individual prefectures. At least, that is my understanding.

Tremalkinger

2006-01-22, 15:43

It would be my suspicion that anyone cheering on a Arika / Sergey pairing is closer to the age of Arika than Sergey. Why? Because as you get older and look back on your life, you realize that the things you wanted at 15 are a far cry from what you actually want at 20 or 25. First loves often (but not always) end poorly, and not at the fault of either party. At fifteen, you're still learning what you want, both in general and even more so about love.

Wishing an Arika / Sergey pairing is wishing that Arika ends up with a guy who she may very well discover that she's not interested in at all a year or two down the line. Is that really something worth giving up her future as an Otome for?

And this is all assuming that Sergey is the perfect gentleman (which he has been, so far). If you start throwing in bad situations with him, it gets much worse. When a young person (of either gender) becomes involved with an older person who has a stable income, the older person has the clear advantage when invitable disputes break out. The older person has very little reason to comprimise with someone who's half their age and is entirely dependant upon the older person for their basic needs (food, shelter, etc). This often leads to abuse. It's problematic enough when you've got two people of equal age and unequal means to support themselves... adding an age difference in makes it even worse.

I realize its only a story, and their fictional characters. But I think people need to have a little more grounded views when it comes to something like this.

imperialmog

2006-01-22, 15:50

I think the whole issue is *hopefully* a mute point due to nanomachines and all. It makes me rather glad to have that safegaurd in as well. Maybe it's just the problem is that people think to much with what's below the waist. Then again, I admit that I am a prude and often rather old-fashioned when it comes to sex.

I wonder if some of the conflict between Nagi and Sergay could involve this issue as well? I just wish Arika would pair up with Erstin instead since Arika is kind and gentle enough for Erstin who you don't want to see with a jerk.

Kieli

2006-01-22, 16:03

To be honest, I would rather that Arika not pair up with anyone at all just yet. She's got a long way to go in her life and she needs more maturity and experience with her emotions before she can jump feet-first into a relationship with anyone.

I have to agree with Tremalkinger's assessment. It's a POV I hadn't considered until now.

Aidan

2006-01-22, 16:25

Very good post Tremalkinger. I applaud it seeing as it is the only thing I can do.

imperialmog

2006-01-22, 16:34

I also in thinking about it wouldn't want Arika hooked up with anyone yet. I don't know if it's her isolated childhood or what but she is rather naive when it does come to relationships. It seems a bit similar to Mikoto in a subplot being is a quest to learn what love is.

Makes me worried about finding a girlfriend once I graduate since I'd be the one with a good income and all of that, especially with somoene like me who is so inexperienced in romantic relationships. You know it's bad when your younger sister worries that some golddigging girl will try to take advantage of me.

I just hope the genki Arika returns since I really warmed up to the character. Especially in ep 9. The sort of optimism and the "no limits" personality really got to me since we need more of that in real life where the idea is nothing is impossible.

Tempest35

2006-01-22, 17:10

She won't - I have faith in that. She's gonna look back at this in a few years do the 'what the hell was I thinking back then' thing. ^_^ v I mean, Sergay would not be a bad catch - aside for MH Reito, he's probably the most elligible batchelor on the face of the planet right now, so Arika doesn't have a problem with taste persay. It's just she's too young and inexperienced (Sorry Arinko, wait a few more years for another 'Sergay' to come along).

And for Imperialmog - I wouldn't worry too much about the RL girlfriend. Sure, they'll always be girls who try to take advantage of 'nice guys' but that's always a risk. You can minimize your chances of getting 'dug out' a bit by doing a bit of flirting of your own like Sergay does. Start it yourself ; don't let the girls come on to you if you're really worried about it. And PAY ATTENTION before and after the conversation. Golddiggers will tell you what you want to hear - flattery and all that. An equal won't. ^_^ It's a weird game out there - that's why you have to decide ahead of time, just what sort of girl you are looking for. If you want a girl who already has money with her and is already set comfortably, going to the clubs is NOT my first choice - those are mostly one-nighters or just too much trouble anyway.

(Great, I've turned this into a dating advice column - Sorry! :heh:)

Blaat

2006-01-22, 17:20

DeuceTrick

2006-01-22, 20:17

I guess Arika-Sergay is just this season's Ultimate Debate Topic of Doom. Kind of like the hullaballoo over Shiznat (which is a bloody awful contraction, by the way).

imperialmog

2006-01-22, 22:13

What I would wonder is who Arika might go for in a few years. Or anyone for that matter. It seems Aoi finally decided to go out with Chie.

Of course my problem is I'm at a science and engineering school so the idea of single women is near fantasy. Any of them who are either have a bad personality or are looking for women as well. I couldn't stand going to bars or clubs and the like, which unfortunately all there is to do where I am. A social butterfly I am not and actually scared a lot to be in crouds since I get insecure.

I was curious as to the pairings different people here all like or would like to see?

bluegarden

2006-01-22, 22:25

i just saw episode 15, Sergey really cares for arika, it so obvious in the conversation he has with himself.

and now when mai comes back, she's gonna find her men with a 15 year old....:p

Eclipze

2006-01-22, 22:28

I was curious as to the pairings different people here all like or would like to see?
Common "demands" for pairings include:
ShizNat (the amount of fanarts should tell you alot...)
Haruka X Yukino
Arika X Nina
Nina X Erstin
Erstin X Arika
Arika X Mashiro

Basically, all yuri pairings.:heh:
Thats what happens when you only have 2 "nice guys" on the show. One being Sergey, the other being Kazuya(who is taken by Akane).

imperialmog

2006-01-22, 22:28

That and it seems Akira has Takumi though Mashiro also has some crush on him. Maybe his position allows for a harem.

Ronin Aquila

2006-01-22, 22:33

i just saw episode 15, Sergey really cares for arika, it so obvious in the conversation he has with himself.

and now when mai comes back, she's gonna find her men with a 15 year old....:p

JE-RRY!! JE-RRY!! JE-RRY!! JE-RRY!! :)

bluegarden

2006-01-22, 22:51

JE-RRY!! JE-RRY!! JE-RRY!! JE-RRY!! :)

That would be a great show for jerry
rena, mai, arika and even nina all fighting for sergay

Preston

2006-01-23, 03:00

Arika X Nina

I think we can safely say that ones not going to happen after reading the spoilers for episode 17..

Erstin X Arika

Doubtful. I think they just consider each other as good friends, but I've been wrong before..

Eclipze

2006-01-23, 03:04

I think we can safely say that ones not going to happen after reading the spoilers for episode 17..
Doubtful. I think they just consider each other as good friends, but I've been wrong before..
I was just replying to imperialmog's post.
I was curious as to the pairings different people here all like or would like to see?
;)

Preston

2006-01-23, 03:06

I was just replying to imperialmog's post.

;)

Well.. yeah, I saw the quote. I was just directing the post at either you or him, since neither of those pairings are as valid or the others.. perhaps Nina and Erstin included. :(

Tremalkinger

2006-01-23, 09:03

Well.. yeah, I saw the quote. I was just directing the post at either you or him, since neither of those pairings are as valid or the others.. perhaps Nina and Erstin included. :(

Nina doesn't appear to return the feelings, but... I think its pretty obvious that there's one sided feelings from Erstin's side.

Back in Episode Six, there was a long discussion on whether ErstinNina was the new ShizNat (which is a bloody GREAT contraction, mind you :heh: ) The overall conclusion was maybe... depending on how good Mai Otome is overall and if Erstin gets enough development.

Eclipze

2006-01-23, 09:11

there was a long discussion on whether ErstinNina was the new ShizNat (which is a bloody GREAT contraction, mind you :heh: ) The overall conclusion was maybe... depending on how good Mai Otome is overall and if Erstin gets enough development.
I dont think ErstinNina can be the new ShizNat though...considering that if Nina is suppose to be parallel to Natsuki, Erstin being not aggressive enough to be the Shizuru in the relationship...

Not that I would mind it it DID happen.:heh:

Souten no Seigyoku

2006-01-23, 10:11

I really dont know what the big deal is with the Arika x Segey thing. When I was in JHS (same age of these girls) girls would drool over handsome male teachers and the guys would gawk at the 1 hot femme fatale teacher we had. Its just a kids crush which happens all the time. At first I figured it was fear because they might do an arika x sergey pairing. After all, anime studios love to push the envelope. Thats over though so why are we still making a fuss?

Sunrise isnt "going there" so there's no need to worry. The way I see it, he has father-duaghter feelings for Arika. Thats why hes disobeying Nagi's order. He's probably called the North Hound because he might be a vicious, cold, and uncaring sob who'd kill women and children if it accomplished the mission. Yet he cant seem to obey Nagi with regards to Arika. Hence his confusion and pondering.

I am actually starting to like Tomoe as an antagonist now. With the knowledge of why Shizuru pays attention to Arika, she might just turn into a real threat with the knowledge than just a plain jealous bitch who we all had our share of in school

I agree. Initially I thought she would back off once she realized it was because of the Souten no Seigyuko. Any sane jealous person would....

Tempest35

2006-01-23, 15:31

How can ANYONE compare with the glory of the original ShizNat? :D

I'm not gonna put a spoiler tag up since this is just speculation...

but...

I do think that around ep 19-20, Erstin's gonna have to get a backbone and stand up for Nina (probably after Nagi's demolished her 'Sergay-centric' world after the chaos of Aswald's invasion of Garderobe). Ers-chan might even sacrifice herself for Nina - I can see it happening, she really does love Nina.

I think that the ErsNina is MEANT to be a contradiction of the ShizNat of MH in the fact that the ones with the feelings have different ways of going about bringing their feelings to light. Shizuru took the 'low road' so to speak after her feelings for Natsuki were made known publicly, but Ers-chan will take the 'high road' in marked contrast. I think that will be better overall (for both characters' development) and will give a sad yet bright spot in the darkening days ahead. ^^

Solitaire

2006-01-23, 15:39

I'd like to see Mashiro x Takumi, Mai x Sergay...i'm not to into all the yuri pairings. I like Shizuru and Natsuki, but I rather not see every character turn out to be in a pairing like that...although like Eclipze said thats what you get for having a lack of guys.:heh: I think the Arika x Sergay thing is wierd but I'm not against it if it does happen considering love is strange in the first place.

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 17:40

Hi all, this is my first post here, but Ive been lurking the past few days. And I simply have to say somethings.

For one, alot of you seem to be in denial over the whole Arika and Sergey relationship. Just think for a minute, how many shows have you seen, where the guy/girl first rejects the other for one reason or another, and ends up together somewhere near the end? Too many to count to say the least. I personally dont think Arika is of Loli age. if she was under 12 and younger than yes, that'll be loli in my eyes, as well as, some people Ive asked. 15 is HS sophmore age here in America. And Im more than certain that alot of you guys out there have seen HS girls and be going "hot damn". So, dont be fronting. My friend said, at least its not like Pocahontas, where she was 13 and John was 36, now thats loli :twitch:

After watching certain scenes over and over again, it became apparent to me that its more in the line of, he can't believe that he really does have feelings for Arika, despite her age. From what he was saying, it would seem that he would accept having feelings for Arika, if she really was Rena's daughter, but Arika isn't... so why is he having these feeling? thats what I basically gathered from that whole scene. Just watching his face after him remembering where Arika got upset at him and said she hated him, it look like it really tore him up on the inside. Mark my words, its far from over, something will happen between these two.

Oh, and from eps. 14. Im placing my bets on Mashiro being Rena's daughter. Just my hunch, on the placement of scenes during the whole truth being told scene.

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-01-23, 17:49

After watching certain scenes over and over again, it became apparent to me that its more in the line of, he can't believe that he really does have feelings for Arika, despite her age. From what he was saying, it would seem that he would accept having feelings for Arika, if she really was Rena's daughter, but Arika isn't... so why is he having these feeling? thats what I basically gathered from that whole scene. Just watching his face after him remembering where Arika got upset at him and said she hated him, it look like it really tore him up on the inside. Mark my words, its far from over, something will happen between these two.

Because he was instructed by Nagi to use whatever means necessary to gain a hold of the real princess. Sergay himself knows that Arika is the princess.

As that asian spy guy said, he himself has been surprised and been watching Sergay with his notes and stuff and asked, "has it revived?"

Sergay himself said that Rena was a dream of his (No doubt about it) and no doubt seeing her daughter, Arika, brought it out again. Now he has a chance to show some of his affection for her through her daughter.

So right now the guy's messed up.

Wouldn't you be? THe main reason is because he can't bring himself to not only destroy her dreams but make her a puppet. Sergay isn't the type of guy to do such a thing, I thought that would be obvious.

However, I'm not totally disagreeing with you but I do believe that his affections was because he thought Arika was Rena's daughter.

In episode 10 going along with your analysis, he says something similiar to along with, "she's the same age as Nina, don't be ridiculous."

Now he finds out she's not Rena daughter and he's been chasing a false dream but instead, she's a princess and he's been instructed to seduce her if necessary...dude how is that not messed up? :heh:

I personally dont think Arika is of Loli age. if she was under 12 and younger than yes, that'll be loli in my eyes, as well as, some people Ive asked. 15 is HS sophmore age here in America. And Im more than certain that alot of you guys out there have seen HS girls and be going "hot damn". So, dont be fronting. My friend said, at least its not like Pocahontas, where she was 13 and John was 36, now thats loli

I believe it's called statutory rape. Under 12 is a serious offense and from 13-16 it is a lesser charge but nevertheless is a crime. I doubt bandai would allow them to go that far to kissing and such. Crush? Sure. Actual full blown relationship? Doubt it.

Besides the guy shows extreme self-control.

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 18:25

Oh, no doubt that sexual relations with someone under a certain age is a crime in America, but many nations dont have the same law as we do in America. And even here, a girl under the age of 18 can get married if given the consent of their parents. And dont forget, for most of human history, as soon as a girl is of child baring age, she is able to get married, as described above by other posters about the whole life expectancy stuff.

I agree with you, soldier, on many accounts. Sergeys first assumption on Arika being Rena's daughter, is what first led Sergey to start having romantic feelings for her, simply because she's Rena's daughter, but even still after finding out that she is not Rena's daughter, and yet he still has feelings for her, that within itself is whats throwing Sergey into confusion.

Xellos-_^

2006-01-23, 18:32

I thought the Ep was ok there were many intresting points to think about and the title of the next episode has got me wondering whats going to happen with sergey arika and nina situation

Arika and Nina fights over Sergy

Mai comes in and walks off with Sergy.

Arika and Nina goes :eek:

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-01-23, 18:50

Are you sure :eyebrow: Wheres this in my handbook for life as a guy:twitch:

You have a book for life as a guy? You must lend it to me sometime.

Oh, no doubt that sexual relations with someone under a certain age is a crime in America, but many nations dont have the same law as we do in America. And even here, a girl under the age of 18 can get married if given the consent of their parents. And dont forget, for most of human history, as soon as a girl is of child baring age, she is able to get married, as described above by other posters about the whole life expectancy stuff.

I thought someone posted something in this thread, I think it was valiant or something about the age.

Cardcaptors is the only anime I've seen that comes closest to it but never venture anywhere near the same magnitude as the manga did so I don't think they'll allow it in general.

I agree with you, soldier, on many accounts. Sergeys first assumption on Arika being Rena's daughter, is what first led Sergey to start having romantic feelings for her, simply because she's Rena's daughter, but even still after finding out that she is not Rena's daughter, and yet he still has feelings for her, that within itself is whats throwing Sergey into confusion.

Like I said, after finding out she's not her daughter, now he's being persuaded to seduce her. His feelings are now all over the place. Man that casanova. He didn't even had to chase after Arika. :heh:

Wait till Mai gets a hold of this. Assuming she actually makes an appearance in the anime.

SoldierOfDarkness

2006-01-23, 19:01

I guess it's confusing because the guy was talking about how Sergay was treating Arika, then noted he was surprised by that birthday dress, then he talks about if he was the north hound blah blah blah, then he says has it revived?

That's how I saw it anyways. It would make sense if the North Hound is a military persona, then the part where he said has it revived would refer to Rena. Otherwise why would he be picking the words, has it revived for that persona? Is he saying that he just revived it or is the North Hound actually a romantic persona?

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 19:06

Basically, how I saw it was it could go either 2 ways this eps. One, He kisses her and they have a bumpy relationship from here till the end. Or two, he turns her down, and later on atones for it and they get together later.

Kieli

2006-01-23, 19:28

Oh, no doubt that sexual relations with someone under a certain age is a crime in America, but many nations dont have the same law as we do in America. And even here, a girl under the age of 18 can get married if given the consent of their parents. And dont forget, for most of human history, as soon as a girl is of child baring age, she is able to get married, as described above by other posters about the whole life expectancy stuff.
While that's true to some extent, those nations are very few and far between. Plus we are talking about the girl's consent for marriage, not something akin to the omiai where marriages are arranged. The girl/woman has no say in the matter in that situation. Like I said before, girls below the age of 18 have neither the experience nor the maturity required to be involved fully in a romantic relationship. A crush? Certainly. Full blown relationship which may include sex? No way. The entire discussion, replete with some links for you to read for information can be found here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=27694&page=6).

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 20:04

Sorry to say this, but I might be one of the few that believes this. But, age does not reflect maturity. Experience, upbringing, not to mention genetics is a better gauge for someones maturity. Saying a teenager is incapable of having a "proper" romantic relationship is a load of bull.

I'm from a very tradional family, and I've been engaged in an arranged marriage since I was 8 yrs old, and she was 3 yrs old. At that time, I didn't really know what was going on, but we grew up together, and eventually fell in love with one another. But a romantic relation never started until she was about 16. It was around then, I started taking the arranged marriage a'lil more seriously, and started treating her like a women, rather than a childhood friend... that, and alot of the "older" people from both sides of the family were getting annoyed at my dilly dallying... :heh:

But, things have been going great between us since then. So, therefore to put it bluntly, my personal experience is what led to my own belief that age doesnt reflect a person's maturity and/or capabilities of having a romantic relationship. Just because you're together, does that mean you're knocking boots? no. So, if Sergey and Arika, were to get together (which is already a huge percent chance of happening anyway) they could maintain a platonic relationship for when Arika is personally ready for such a step. No one can say an individual is ready for any step in any kind of relationship other than that person him/herself.

Squirrama

2006-01-23, 20:21

While that's true to some extent, those nations are very few and far between. Plus we are talking about the girl's consent for marriage, not something akin to the omiai where marriages are arranged. The girl/woman has no say in the matter in that situation. Like I said before, girls below the age of 18 have neither the experience nor the maturity required to be involved fully in a romantic relationship. A crush? Certainly. Full blown relationship which may include sex? No way. The entire discussion, replete with some links for you to read for information can be found here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=27694&page=6).

Actually, the age 18 is not the age of consent for most of the world. There is a whole range of consent ages, and they even change based on your sexuality for most of the world. Some places even have different consent ages based on gender.

Why even here, in the U.S. 18 is not the only age used for consent. For example, both New York and Mass. have their age of consent at 16. Now, I don't know about other states, but I'd be fairly surprised if those were the only states with such a system. Actually, I just looked it up on Wiki, and it said that for the majority of the U.S. the age of consent is 16. Then again they say that mass. Has a consent age of 18, and since I currently live in the sate, and attend my school’s sex lectures, I am completely sure that it is 16 here.

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that Mai Otome, is Japanese. It was written by the Japanese, for the Japanese, and in Japan the age of consent is 13. Arika is 15. That is the standard they are operating under. Why in the world would they care that in some other countries/cultures, 15 year olds are not considered ready to have sex?

I think the main problem here is also the way the girls are portrayed. It’s mind-boggling, but just as Arika is currently 15, Mai was 15 in Mai HiME. However, Mai looked far older than Arika does, so we thought of her as older.

Oh, and it’s a generalization to say stuff like …girls below the age of 18 have neither the experience nor the maturity required to be involved fully in a romantic relationship. A crush? Certainly. Full blown relationship which may include sex? No way. You get double fallacy points for restricting the statement to girls only.

Tremalkinger

2006-01-23, 20:42

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that Mai Otome, is Japanese. It was written by the Japanese, for the Japanese, and in Japan the age of consent is 13. Arika is 15. That is the standard they are operating under. Why in the world would they care that in some other countries/cultures, 15 year olds are not considered ready to have sex?

You've got the facts right, but you're missing the overall point. It's true that in certain areas of Japan, around fifty percent of people have lost their virginity before entering highschool. However, it is both highly unusual and completly socially unacceptable throughout Japan for someone of either gender to have sex with someone as far away from their age as the Arika / Sergey gap. The age of consent is 13... provided the people involved are within a reasonably close age to one another. Anime is NOT an accurate portrayal of life in Japan. Additionally, most of the reactions I've seen on the Japanese boards are solidly against an Arika / Sergey pairing.

I think the main problem here is also the way the girls are portrayed. It’s mind-boggling, but just as Arika is currently 15, Mai was 15 in Mai HiME. However, Mai looked far older than Arika does, so we thought of her as older.

Arika starts 14 and is now 15. Mai starts the series 15 and ends more than halfway through her 16th year. Also, Arika is portrayed as younger because she's extremely naive, while Mai has started the series fairly well grounded and responsible.

Squirrama

2006-01-23, 21:09

You've got the facts right, but you're missing the overall point. It's true that in certain areas of Japan, around fifty percent of people have lost their virginity before entering highschool. However, it is both highly unusual and completly socially unacceptable throughout Japan for someone of either gender to have sex with someone as far away from their age as the Arika / Sergey gap. The age of consent is 13... provided the people involved are within a reasonably close age to one another. Anime is NOT an accurate portrayal of life in Japan. Additionally, most of the reactions I've seen on the Japanese boards are solidly against an Arika / Sergey pairing.

..I suppose I lost my head upon seeing the emphasis on the completely artificial barrier that is the age 18. :heh: See, I personally go to a school specially designed for students who feel the system is far to restraining based on age. It is a college where the majority of students start their freshman year between 15 and 18. I suppose, because I have been living apart from age perceptions here, I react far more extreme when faced with people making generalizations based on them. For an example of how messed up my age perceptions are, I am 17, and a college Sophomore. Most Sophomores, in schools unlike my own, are about 19, or 20. However, I feel I can relate to them age wise, far better than I can to High School Juniors, even though that is the grade I would be in had I not left High School.

I’m also aware that in Japan it is still considered wrong for such a relationship to take place, I mean the age gap there is just about a full decade. Now, in another decade or two Arika would not be too young for Sergay, not in the least, however right now it is what we consider, in this day and age, to be wrong. What I was trying to point out is that the perception as to how “ready” Arika is could very well be different. (And yeah, I know anime shows us a false image of Japan, one of my best friends just got back from a year in Tokyo a few months ago. He is very quick to tell anyone who will listen what it was like, so errr, yeah.. :heh: )

Of course something else that just occurred to me is that it has only been in the last few generations or so, that western civilization has started to view such age gaps as wrong (I myself have a great grandmother who was 16 when she was married to my great grandfather, and he was 72 at the time. But in Poland at that time, such things were not thought twice about) Earl seems to have regressed in many ways, and well… perhaps I am making excuses here so that it doesn’t seem as outrageous and outright wrong as everyone seems to be regarding it, I guess I just have trouble seeing a 15 year old as missing something she would essentially need to enter into a relationship.

Now, I myself don’t like the Sergay/Arika relationship. However there are more factors than just age that have resulted in my dislike of them as a couple. I can see them working better together with a brother/sister type of relationship, not a romantic one.

Tremalkinger

2006-01-23, 21:21

I guess I just have trouble seeing a 15 year old as missing something she would essentially need to enter into a relationship.

I feel that Arika, as a specific case, is missing a lot of things before she has any chance of being able to enter a relationship, but on a whole I don't disagree with your statement. Heartbreak is just a part of growing up, and unless you're irresponsible about it, relationships that early are fine.

Now, I myself don’t like the Sergay/Arika relationship. However there are more factors than just age that have resulted in my dislike of them as a couple. I can see them working better together with a brother/sister type of relationship, not a romantic one.

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this :)

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 21:25

No matter what anyone feels about the relationship, how we feel wont change what will or will not happen. With the way things have been playing out so far, Sergey being with Arika is inevitable, least one of them dies doing something heroic.

KiraDouji

2006-01-23, 21:25

I believe it's called statutory rape. Under 12 is a serious offense and from 13-16 it is a lesser charge but nevertheless is a crime. I doubt bandai would allow them to go that far to kissing and such.

In Japan 15 is fine. Just because it squeaks Americans doesn't mean Sunrise'll yank it. First off, this is an anime made in a country where 15 is acceptable. Secondly, it shows during "otaku hour"... It's not loli, and it could very well be an angle they plan to use.

Although, personally, I would prefer it if they didn't.

- Kira

Kieli

2006-01-23, 21:42

Actually, the age 18 is not the age of consent for most of the world. There is a whole range of consent ages, and they even change based on your sexuality for most of the world. Some places even have different consent ages based on gender.

Why even here, in the U.S. 18 is not the only age used for consent. For example, both New York and Mass. have their age of consent at 16. Now, I don't know about other states, but I'd be fairly surprised if those were the only states with such a system. Actually, I just looked it up on Wiki, and it said that for the majority of the U.S. the age of consent is 16. Then again they say that mass. Has a consent age of 18, and since I currently live in the sate, and attend my school’s sex lectures, I am completely sure that it is 16 here.
And the same goes for Japan. Each prefecture has their own rules regarding the age of consent but overall, Japan has changed it to be 18.
Actually, the age 18 is not the age of consent for most of the world. There is a whole range of consent ages, and they even change based on your sexuality for most of the world. Some places even have different consent ages based on gender.
I never said anything about the age of consent being uniform the world over. Thus, you're speculating as to my thoughts, a habit you might not want to get into. I know the age of consent here in the US and I know it varies from state to state. But if you want some very shocking statistics, you might want to read here (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/208803.pdf#search='statutory%20rape,%20united%20st ates').

Additionally, you seem to be forgetting that Mai Otome, is Japanese. It was written by the Japanese, for the Japanese, and in Japan the age of consent is 13. Arika is 15. That is the standard they are operating under. Why in the world would they care that in some other countries/cultures, 15 year olds are not considered ready to have sex?
Actually if you paid attention to the conversation, I got the law directly from the Japanese Diet website (http://www.moj.go.jp/ENGLISH/CRAB/law01.html). They have since changed the age of consent. If you want me to point you further in the proper direction, I shall. I know very well what this anime is intended for. That doesn't require brain surgery.
You get double fallacy points for restricting the statement to girls only.
Actually I don't. It would be a fallacy if I were making a sweeping generalisation regarding both sexes. However, since we are only discussing one (female), I limited my discussion to that only. The other information is extraneous to the topic at hand unless you wish to include it. And again if you had bothered to read the other thread, I specifically addressed both sexes in the statutory rape argument. There is no mistake in reasoning, I merely left out a particular group for the sake of this particular argument, as underaged females are the current issue being discussed and not underaged males.
Sorry to say this, but I might be one of the few that believes this. But, age does not reflect maturity. Experience, upbringing, not to mention genetics is a better gauge for someones maturity. Saying a teenager is incapable of having a "proper" romantic relationship is a load of bull.
How many teenagers do you know of have as much experience with romantic relationships as adults? I'd wager to say, not many, if any at all. I never said age alone reflects maturity but age often limits the experiences a person can have, especially between the ages of 12-18 and thus maturity takes a long time coming. And generally speaking, age is very much a factor in maturity. We're talking about real, healthy, romantic relationships here and not just random sex with any idiot with working sexual equipment. Genetics has nothing to do with maturity. That alone is false.
I'm from a very tradional family, and I've been engaged in an arranged marriage since I was 8 yrs old, and she was 3 yrs old. At that time, I didn't really know what was going on, but we grew up together, and eventually fell in love with one another. But a romantic relation never started until she was about 16. It was around then, I started taking the arranged marriage a'lil more seriously, and started treating her like a women, rather than a childhood friend... that, and alot of the "older" people from both sides of the family were getting annoyed at my dilly dallying...
Your experience proves my point about age. But you were in a forced situation and not a consentual one. It's to your credit that you decided to be mature and treat the girl with some respect. She obviously had no say in her marriage to you and god knows what she was really thinking as the years went on.
In Japan 15 is fine. Just because it squeaks Americans doesn't mean Sunrise'll yank it.
That is merely insulting but, considering the source, I'm not surprised.
First off, this is an anime made in a country where 15 is acceptable.
It may be acceptable in certain quarters but is growing increasingly illegal.

KiraDouji

2006-01-23, 21:54

That is merely insulting but, considering the source, I'm not surprised.

Excuse me? :eyebrow:

It may be acceptable in certain quarters but is growing increasingly illegal.

Increasingly illegal due to outside pressures like so many other laws that countries make to seem more in line with the current moral standings of the time, yes, and nowhere have I said that to be otherwise. The point was that it is acceptable for a 15 year old to have sex, not that it was legal. And that, therefore, a relationship may in fact be an angle that Sunrise choses to follow. As someone before me stated, though, said relationship does not necessarily have anything to do with sex. It's just something being focused on because a) sex sells and b) it's funny to watch Arika turn bright red and have Sergey fumble like a teenager occaisionally.

- Kira

Squirrama

2006-01-23, 22:10

How many teenagers do you know of have as much experience with romantic relationships as adults? I'd wager to say, not many, if any at all. I never said age alone reflects maturity but age often limits the experiences a person can have, especially between the ages of 12-18 and thus maturity takes a long time coming. And generally speaking, age is very much a factor in maturity. We're talking about real, healthy, romantic relationships here and not just random sex with any idiot with working sexual equipment. Genetics has nothing to do with maturity. That alone is false.

Most of the people I know are in relationships, or just ended them. And many of them are what I would consider to be healthy. Among those few of my friends who are over 18, most of them started dating the person they are currently with, long before they turned 18. While I do admit there are those among my friends who enjoy meaningless sex, they are in the minority.

May I ask what group of Teenagers you are making your assumptions based on? Neither my friends here in college (who I admit may be unusual) nor my friends in my old highschool, act the way you seem to think teenagers all act. :heh:

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 22:15

Granted that age/time gives leway to the way of maturity but that doesnt mean the person will be more mature with age. If anything most people become more stupid with age. Look at the actions of the so called College "norm" would you consider that mature? no. How many people 18+ 21+ do you think most people know that are as dumb as can be? Ive known young teenagers who are more mature than the people I go to college with.

Adults are just as incapable of having a romantic relationship than a teenager is. You think too highly of adults. Adults if anything are blinded by their egos. Granted I too am an adult, but I give credit to where credit is due. Each individual is their own, and saying a person is incapable simply because of age is mere ignorance.

Kieli

2006-01-23, 22:21

Most of the people I know are in relationships, or just ended them. And many of them are what I would consider to be healthy. Among those few of my friends who are over 18, most of them started dating the person they are currently with, long before they turned 18. While I do admit there are those among my friends who enjoy meaningless sex, they are in the minority. May I ask what group of Teenagers you are making your assumptions based on?
Therein lies the problem and it mostly has to deal with psychology. How can a teenager, who entered into a relationship long before they turned 18, have any prior experience in knowing what a good relationship entails? What experiences, influences, etc, do they base said relationship on? This may all come down to one's definition of relationship. Is a relationship to you merely dating or being with one person for a period of time or is it something deeper? What do they consider healthy? I have worked for several universities over the years and taught at the high school level. I can tell you that my observations and conversations with teenagers (though it has been more than 15 yrs) showed me that, while they had the rudimentary tools, they weren't ready for the commitment that a "adult romantic relationship" entails. But flinging the word relationship around is vague. How many people do you know well and know the intricacies of their relationships? Tens, hundreds? Just how large is your circle of friends so that you have an accurate sampling of the maturity of teenagers overall? I'm not an overall authority on teenagers but, having been one myself ;) I can say that, while I was "mature" in the sense of being responsible and self aware, I was by no means ready to enter into a romantic relationship at that age because I had very little idea of what that truly meant.

The sexual imagery on television these days, the lack of involvement by parents in many kids' sexual education, et. al. is giving teenagers a somewhat vague, distorted view of what being in a committed, romantic relationship really means. It's not how teenagers act, although your own view may be biased if you're not older than 18, but what they lack despite their actions.

Granted that age/time gives leway to the way of maturity but that doesnt mean the person will be more mature with age. If anything most people become more stupid with age. Look at the actions of the so called College "norm" would you consider that mature? no. How many people 18+ 21+ do you think most people know that are as dumb as can be? Ive known young teenagers who are more mature than the people I go to college with.
In college, most students start out at age 17, some are 16. Still teenagers. Schooling has nothing to do with my assessment. Again, maturity in certain aspects but not necessarily in the realm of relationships, on which this argument is focused.

Adults are just as incapable of having a romantic relationship than a teenager is. You think too highly of adults. Adults if anything are blinded by their egos. Granted I too am an adult, but I give credit to where credit is due. Each individual is their own, and saying a person is incapable simply because of age is mere ignorance.
There are reasons why adults are incapable of having romantic relationships. Some of it is due to lack of maturity in that aspect of their lives, some of it is due to past/present bad experiences. But they at least have those experiences to draw on and make choices accordingly. They already should know the difference between right and wrong in a romantic relationship. If they find themselves incapable of having one, that may be something they need to deal with, either with therapy or some other means. For many, with age comes wisdom. And I make the distinction of many and not all. I have found that to be very true, even when I was adamant to believe otherwise.

KiraDouji

2006-01-23, 22:24

@ Eclipze

Humorous in a different way XP I thought it was funny in context, Trem made it funny out of context. ;P The first way I was intending it to be light hearted and humorous to others, whereas the second made me giggle.

In General

And I agree with Squirrama and Asianknight82. Most of the teenagers I hung out with in highschool and then later in college were generally mature and knew how to handle themselves in a relationship. I knew some people who were steady for all of high school and even someone who married senior year. Lovely wedding, it was. That's not to say that everyone has that maturity, and I certainly doubt Arika does, but it's a little unfair to generalize like that.

- Kira

Kieli

2006-01-23, 22:29

That's not to say that everyone has that maturity, and I certainly doubt Arika does, but it's a little unfair to generalize like that.

- Kira
Arika's actions thus far haven't given me any indication that she indeed has that maturity. And thus, my opinion.

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 22:30

KiraDouji

2006-01-23, 22:31

Okay, bear with me here.

Arika's actions thus far haven't given me any indication that she indeed has that maturity.

I think it's been stated already that we agree here and some others do as well.

And thus, my opinion.

And here's where I'm lost. Which opinion? The one about Arika or the one about teenagers in general?

- Kira

piccolo

2006-01-23, 22:38

Geez, I make an expression (http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=452004&postcount=203) of dissatisfaction towards destructive rather than constructive criticisms, whether the criticisms be negative or positive, and my head gets torn off. :D

Well, but my comments stand. Use whatever inference you wish to decipher the meaning of my words, but it stands that we all should look in the mirror a little more to determine who we really are.

We all have our personal expectation of an anime. Unfortunately, some of those expecations have been set by other animes, and most especially by MH. That's too bad because it can clouden the impact that MO could have. We'd be better off to walk into the anime with a clean slate, and without any MH exposure.

But that is just my opinion. So don't let your feathers be ruffled when I state my opinion. Only you can determine your own state of being. :)

And, yes, for those who assumed the contrary, I can take constructive criticism very well. I give it too. :heh:

If you don't know what comments in this forum I am referring to, it doesn't matter. Let's return to the topic at hand.

When Mai-Otome hit episode 8, I considered it one of the deepest anime series. After episode 7 I called it even my all-time favourite. Since then I had to redraft that opinion.

However, in only eight episodes it developed some of the deepest plot lines that I've seen in anime. Unfortunately, however, they hit what appeared to be some dead-ends, making it seems that time was wasted and not enough action took place. This is an effect that happens when fans are disgruntled - an effect that should not be ignored by SUNRISE.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure if they're dead-ends at all, or just red-herrings, or opportunities. Only SUNRISE can know. But to develop female teenage infatuations with (adult) males, and then have these quick endings, seems like a bit of a waste of air time to me. A waste only because the time could've been used more efficiently to create greater subplots and build greater viewer anticipation.

Again, that is my opinion, and as I am not a teenage Japanese, I may not understand why this particular angle might work, if it at all does! As I have mentioned in some of my previous posts, I would've preferred other developments over Arika's lovey-dovey stuff. I liked her the most the way she was at the beginning of the anime: different.

Now switching over to plot development...

I'm not quite sure how Sergey likes Arika. I do know that he likes her and that he will continue to support her not because she's 'Rena's daughter' but because she's just simply Arika. And the hell with the Queen stuff. Arika would make a terrible Queen! Let the queen become the otome and protect Mashira. What Power!!!

Naturally he's putting his own standing on the line, but then I think he may just had it up to here to conform to Nagi's plans and scheming. I don't think Sergey will mind at all keeping Arika from Nagi - at what cost though!

Although it may have appeared that Sergey may have actually liked to have kissed Arika, making her dislike him instead will get him no favours from her. (Eeeek!) It'll be back to the regular abuse from her (I hope). In addition, it'll keep from Nagi controlling the world and allowing Arika to become a puppet.

How about loyalty and the danger of treason? By rejecting Arika, Sergay is risking his own neck! Try show some respect to the poor guy would you?

Sergey has gained a lot more respect from me as a result of his protective actions. He could've been the North Hound, but he let his emotions rule him instead.

personally dont think Arika is of Loli age. if she was under 12 and younger than yes, that'll be loli in my eyes, as well as, some people Ive asked. 15 is HS sophmore age here in America. And Im more than certain that alot of you guys out there have seen HS girls and be going "hot damn". So, dont be fronting. My friend said, at least its not like Pocahontas, where she was 13 and John was 36, now thats loliI believe it's called statutory rape. Under 12 is a serious offense and from 13-16 it is a lesser charge but nevertheless is a crime. I doubt bandai would allow them to go that far to kissing and such.

In Japan, Article 177 of the Penal Code puts the age of consent for sexual actitvity at thirteen (13) years. http://www.interpol.int/Public/Children/SexualAbuse/NationalLaws/

To pair Sergey and Arika up as mates is not taboo in Japan. Pushing the envelope, perhaps, but not taboo.

Miya, poor Miya.

Part of me thinks she will have her revenge against Tomoe and that she returns to ask Arika for forgiveness. That door is, after all, open for her to take since there was never an interogation nor punishment. Neither Arika nor Erstin were willing to take the stand. But why was Arika so over-the-top about it? The shock from the night before must've not settled all her marbles yet. Just a few too many loose screws to tighten.

Episode 16: "It's a Promise!":
It's almost time for the top Corals to graduate to Pearl and a comemorative battle is being held to celebrate. While the battle is normally done between the top 2 Corals, this time around, much to the displeasure of Tomoe, it's between Nina and Arika. Nina and Arika both train their hardest with a little help from Erstin.

Tomoe has it coming!!! Yeah :)

Kieli

2006-01-23, 22:39

In the similar context of Kira, there are many known cases where people have dated since HS, and some even as early as Jr HS. who are now married. Granted that many teenagers are hormoned driven, but thats also the case with anyone "adult" age or not. Like, I've been hammering at for the last bit, being older doesnt mean you're more capable of having a "proper" relationship. Adults lie and cheat more than kids do. If anything adults are less capable of having a relationship.
I disagree, especially as an older adult. The things I did as a young adult, I would NEVER do now. My partner and I have grown and matured over our years together, thus our relationship has changed considerably. Ten years ago, what we have now would not have been possible in our youthful state. We just had not experienced enough to get through the rough parts and fully appreciate a meaningful relationship. I simply feel that adults have far more tools at their disposal to that end than teens. Adults aren't saints, and I never claimed otherwise.
And here's where I'm lost. Which opinion? The one about Arika or the one about teenagers in general?
My opinion that the Arika/Sergay pairing should not have even been posited for the plethora of reasons I've given in my posts.

Asianknight82

2006-01-23, 22:50

I disagree, especially as an older adult. The things I did as a young adult, I would NEVER do now. My partner and I have grown and matured over our years together, thus our relationship has changed considerably. Ten years ago, what we have now would not have been possible in our youthful state. We just had not experienced enough to get through the rough parts and fully appreciate a meaningful relationship. I simply feel that adults have far more tools at their disposal to that end than teens. Adults aren't saints, and I never claimed otherwise.

My opinion that the Arika/Sergay pairing should not have even been posited for the plethora of reasons I've given in my posts.

What you are saying is still individual experiences. Your own experience is not the definative of what other adults have gone through or will go through. A younger person can appreciate a meaningful relationship, there are so many different things that can happen that can affect the way a person view things, and these things can happen in variable time. It could be a slowly progressing thing, or something that happens in a matter of days.

Time flows differently for everyone, not only for relationships but for other things as well. Like some people can go on their entire life without ever throwing a punch at someone, where a kid at 14 can spend most of his life, watching his back, because he doesnt know when a group of people are gonna appear out of nowhere and beat the snot out of him.

Squirrama

2006-01-23, 22:54

My opinion that the Arika/Sergay pairing should not have even been posited for the plethora of reasons I've given in my posts.

But it was. And now it's part of the plot, in that what Sergay does with his order in the letter, and what ever his feelings for Arika may be, brotherly, fatherly, romantic, whatever, can really affect what happens in not only his life, or Arika’s, but possibly all of Windbloom (or Earl).

If Arika is really the Queen, and Sergay does what Nagi wishes of him, then Nagi shall have the true queen of Windbloom on his side, ready to do what he wants of her. That would, of course, be no minor event, especially when what we are dealing with is an ancient piece of technology, like the Harmonium, that probably can only be activated with the true queen present. Of course we don’t know yet if that is part of what the Harmonium needs, however Nagi wanted the real queen for his plans involving the Harmonium, which to me indicates that eventually we really will need to figure this matter of parentage, once and for all. And the way things go at that point all rest, at the moment on Sergay, and whether or not he does as he was ordered to do.

pianocello

2006-01-23, 22:59

Mai Otome is a series that needs more hardcore yuri.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2006-01-23, 23:24

Mai Otome is a series that needs more hardcore yuri.
I thought that's what the manga version is for?

Never mind the Doujins, fanfics and fanart...

Eclipze

2006-01-23, 23:24

I thought that's what the manga version is for?

Never mind the Doujins, fanfics and fanart...
I think he wants the animated version...

Kieli

2006-01-23, 23:35

I'm sorry, Kieli, I can't help but feel your opinion is that Teenagers shouldn't have romantic relationships because they don't have the experience necessary to handle romantic relationships.
*shrug* That's your opinion and you would be mistaken, IMHO. My opinion is that any teen younger than 15 should not have a romantic relationship with someone older than themselves by more than 4 years. That's as specific as I have been the whole time. The focus got off tangent by people arguing about generalities I wasn't initially speaking of. Believe what you like, it's your right.
But adults have this experience? When did they acquire it? Not when they were teenagers. You're just pushing off the period of painful romantic mistakes to the twenties instead of the teens. And then, of course, sleeping with 20 year olds will be made illegal because they lack the romantic experience necessary to make good judgements.
There is a difference between having romantic relationships with someone closer to your own age than with someone almost 10 or 15 years your senior if you are a teenager! Come on, people, it's not rocket science. This is what we're discussing. Not relations between teens of the same age....we are focusing on Arika's disparate age difference and Sunrise's pathetic attempt to pair her with a MUCH older man. Since when is that illogical? If she were 19 and the guy were 40, I wouldn't give a damn. But she is, for all intents and purposes, an innocent kid. I cannot accept this pairing.
Whoa, hon, I'm not disagreeing with you here, I just didn't know to which opinion you were referencing. I honestly don't know what I did to get on your bad side tonight, but I would appreciate it if you could tone down the replies.
Pardon me, but I didn't use a phrase that insulted someone, then laughed it off as if the insult was no big deal. I was offended, you didn't apologise. And my comment on my opinion was in no way snippy. I was simply stating a fact about my opinion. Period. Not in the least way personal.
Um, in Kira's quote, he agrees that he doubts that Arika has the same kind of maturity that he mentioned about some teens, so whats with the reply?:twitch:
The reply was to the latter half of the quote....the supposed unfairness of generalization. Which was not what I was doing when this discussion first started. It meandered in that direction when dealing with societal mores and the hard and fast law concerning this issue.

That's the thing about opinions. Everyone has them but I know why I have them. We could probably argue this for another week or so but I doubt I would change my opinion and I have no intention of changing anyone else's. It's just interesting when people think about why they believe the things they do versus merely reacting.

KiraDouji

2006-01-24, 00:04

Pardon me, but I didn't use a phrase that insulted someone, then laughed it off as if the insult was no big deal. I was offended, you didn't apologise. And my comment was in no way snippy. I was stating a fact about my opinion. Period. Not in the least way personal.

Okay, seriously, I used a phrase that you personally found insulting through logic that makes, in my opinion, no sense what so ever. So, going with your own logic on the matter, that is your problem, not mine.

Comments like

Believe what you like, it's your right.

and

Come on, people, it's not rocket science.

do not promote discussion and come off rather snarky, to be frank. Take a deep breath and punch a pillow or something. Some of these people, most in fact, have logically presented thoughts, opinions and theories and been written clean off your slate. That's fine, but there is no need for excessive belittling of such posts.

TBox's line "I'm sorry, Kieli, I can't help but feel your opinion is that Teenagers shouldn't have romantic relationships because they don't have the experience necessary to handle romantic relationships." demonstrates that they believe your argument is based around experience. If that's not true, clearifying the point or finding additional ways to support it would have worked instead of blaming other people for debating the points that they thought you were trying to make. Miscommunication is a two way thing.

Honestly, I think that Squirrama has an excellent point to everyone involved in this debate, not just Kieli.

And now it's part of the plot, in that what Sergay does with his order in the letter, and what ever his feelings for Arika may be, brotherly, fatherly, romantic, whatever, can really affect what happens in not only his life, or Arika’s, but possibly all of Windbloom (or Earl).

This is exactly true. Some people, myself included, may not have liked this turn of events and that has been voiced. However, it's canon and that's what we have to work with, and so it may be a better idea to focus on the causes and effects of the revelations in this episode. I wouldn't be surprized to come back in the morning and find that Catgirls has taken out half this thread for all that it's related to the episode itself, although I do think that there was some decent discussion here well worth keeping.

With that in mind, Squirrama also stated "If Arika is really the Queen, and Sergay does what Nagi wishes of him, then Nagi shall have the true queen of Windbloom on his side, ready to do what he wants of her. That would, of course, be no minor event, especially when what we are dealing with is an ancient piece of technology, like the Harmonium, that probably can only be activated with the true queen present."

Which is interesting to say the least. I've been searching for a motive on Nagi's behalf... and in this episode he does reference nebulous goals he wishes to accomplish. The Harmonium could very well be one of those things, but then I have to ask how he knows about it and what he seeks to gain with it.

"Of course we don’t know yet if that is part of what the Harmonium needs, however Nagi wanted the real queen for his plans involving the Harmonium, which to me indicates that eventually we really will need to figure this matter of parentage, once and for all. And the way things go at that point all rest, at the moment on Sergay, and whether or not he does as he was ordered to do."

And that is precisely what is going to dictate the next few episodes. We've seen already that his initial decision is to protect. To me, at least, he seems to look at Arika and Nina in a similar light (think of how many times he's compared them) and wishes to protect the both of them. At the same time, what are his real motives? Why would he work for Nagi? Choice or status? Does he really want something out of this or is he just working like a good henchman? I'm really interested to see how this turns out, given the background we've been tidied over with for now.

- Kira

Yazakura

2006-01-24, 01:56

Tremalkinger

2006-01-24, 02:04

Sergey's really pissing me off, more that usual lately. One of his only two options was to seduce Arika, so...what kind of love's in that? He's playing mind games with both Arika and Nina, and he ALMOST kissed Arika but no! He had to reject her in the worst way possible.

As far as I see it... Sergey had three options:

(a) Accept Arika's feelings and make the best of it. But this involves her in his countries politics, is beyond cruel to Nina, and make Arika potentially lose her dream of becoming an Otome.

(b) Follow Negi's instructions and seduce her. It's all the bad parts of (a), plus the addition of betraying Arika.

(c) Turn her down in a cruel way, so that she gets upset at him. He doesn't have to make any hard decisions yet, and she'll rebound quickly enough (which we saw with Mashiro).

He went with (c), which was really the best he could do, as far as I can see. What would you have rathered him to do?

Asianknight82

2006-01-24, 02:19

Im gonna have to disagree with you, Kira, on one thing. I dont think Sergey sees Nina and Arika in the same light, as you put it. The only thing he compares them with is age. He's trying to convince himself that he cant have feelings for Arika, because shes the same age as Nina. But, apparently that isnt working at all, is it? With each passing episode, Sergey starts to see Arika more of a women than as a "kid". Eps. 10 probably nudged it along more than any of the other eps.

Diodati

2006-01-24, 03:15

As far as I see it... Sergey had three options:

(a) Accept Arika's feelings and make the best of it. But this involves her in his countries politics, is beyond cruel to Nina, and make Arika potentially lose her dream of becoming an Otome.

(b) Follow Negi's instructions and seduce her. It's all the bad parts of (a), plus the addition of betraying Arika.

(c) Turn her down in a cruel way, so that she gets upset at him. He doesn't have to make any hard decisions yet, and she'll rebound quickly enough (which we saw with Mashiro).

He went with (c), which was really the best he could do, as far as I can see. What would you have rathered him to do?

Heh, very true, kinda between a rock and a hard place there.

The only problem I see with number (c), is how this will equate to the convention of anime. Seeing as Otome has pretty run along with the predictable plot-line (I'm not being 'mean', but that's what it feels like to me), the manner of resolution can only fall one way:
Arika now has (the dreaded) misconceptions about Sergay - when in reality Sergay has strong feelings (whatever they may be, eesh) for Arika. And in this genre of anime, then that misunderstanding will not stay in such a status quo till the final episode. Obviously. She will eventually find out, again, what a decent guy Sergay is for saying those nasty things he said, I'm pretty convinced, and then what??? I am quite sure that Sergay x Arika is extremely possible just on this 'diversion' alone. If Sergay hadn't have left it hanging on his side then their relationship would probably have ended on a mutual respect at the end of the series. But it's not happened, the direction Sunrise are going leaves it with a very strong chance of them ending as a couple. (Which if I'm going to give my opinion on; I'm pretty indifferent to them to be honest, although I find it incredibly unbelievable - I mean as if).

Anyway if I going to speculate further then there are three things that may prevent it:
- If Sergay goes bad (which I honestly see as unlikely - HiME at least had two guys to pick from)
- If Arika somehow becomes so Otome-minded, that she realises she wouldn't, at the moment anyway, sacrifice being one (I hope, I hope)
- Nina

And I feel so utterly sorry for Nina - seriously - the first eleven episodes were to consolidate how much she cares for Sergay and the last four have seen her show an obvious 'care' for Arika. Even Erstin helped out our weird SxA 'couple' - everyone is 'in on it', Nina seems to be primarily only in the show to get hurt.

So anyway that's me having thought about things a little too much ney.

Asianknight82

2006-01-24, 03:21

Heh, very true, kinda between a rock and a hard place there.

The only problem I see with number (c), is how this will equate to the convention of anime. Seeing as Otome has pretty run along with the predictable plot-line (I'm not being 'mean', but that's what it feels like to me), the manner of resolution can only fall one way:
Arika now has (the dreaded) misconceptions about Sergay - when in reality Sergay has strong feelings (whatever they may be, eesh) for Arika. And in this genre of anime, then that misunderstanding will not stay in such a status quo till the final episode. Obviously. She will eventually find out, again, what a decent guy Sergay is for saying those nasty things he said, I'm pretty convinced, and then what??? I am quite sure that Sergay x Arika is extremely possible just on this 'diversion' alone. If Sergay hadn't have left it hanging on his side then their relationship would probably have ended on a mutual respect at the end of the series. But it's not happened, the direction Sunrise are going leaves it with a very strong chance of them ending as a couple. (Which if I'm going to give my opinion on; I'm pretty indifferent to them to be honest, although I find it incredibly unbelievable - I mean as if).

Anyway if I going to speculate further then there are three things that may prevent it:
- If Sergay goes bad (which I honestly see as unlikely - HiME at least had two guys to pick from)
- If Arika somehow becomes so Otome-minded, that she realises she wouldn't, at the moment anyway, sacrifice being one (I hope, I hope)
- Nina

And I feel so utterly sorry for Nina - seriously - the first eleven episodes were to consolidate how much she cares for Sergay and the last four have seen her show an obvious 'care' for Arika. Even Erstin helped out our weird SxA 'couple' - everyone is 'in on it', Nina seems to be primarily only in the show to get hurt.

So anyway that's me having thought about things a little too much ney.

You my friend, IMO, have hit the nail on the head. Although, lets not forget the future conflictions of her being the real queen. Her being Arika. Thats just gonna through in a whole new bag of trouble for our troupe.

Retsoor

2006-01-24, 03:36

>> If Arika somehow becomes so Otome-minded, that she realises she wouldn't, at the moment anyway, sacrifice being one (I hope, I hope)

I didn't see any intentions of dropping her Otome career choice this episode after she got fired up from her supposed mother's example, to gain both her dreams and love. I saw her meeting with Sergey merely as confirmation for her own feelings, and to see if she has a certain someone after she retires.

Kieli

2006-01-24, 06:30

Okay, seriously, I used a phrase that you personally found insulting through logic that makes, in my opinion, no sense what so ever. So, going with your own logic on the matter, that is your problem, not mine.
I found no logic in the statement that precipated my being offended. None. Thus you cannot use logic against me for a statement that had no logic to begin with. It sounded and looked to me like slandering a particular group of people. Had you left you the word "Americans" and not used any particular group, I might not have cared. But you feel it's ok to insult someone and you're the better person for it but I make a statement about something being very obvious and I am belitting. IMHO, that is hypocritical. I made a statement that Arika's behaviour has not been shown to be mature and thus my opinion. You're comparing apples to oranges, logically speaking.
do not promote discussion and come off rather snarky, to be frank. Take a deep breath and punch a pillow or something. Some of these people, most in fact, have logically presented thoughts, opinions and theories and been written clean off your slate. That's fine, but there is no need for excessive belittling of such posts.
To use your quote, if it comes off as snarky, that's your problem, not mine. I'm not excessively belitting, trust me. I disagree with many of the arguments presented but do not feel that all of it was logically stated. Some, not all. But you and I have been round and round with what you deem as logical and what I do not, fallacies notwithstanding.

TBox's line "I'm sorry, Kieli, I can't help but feel your opinion is that Teenagers shouldn't have romantic relationships because they don't have the experience necessary to handle romantic relationships." demonstrates that they believe your argument is based around experience. If that's not true, clearifying the point or finding additional ways to support it would have worked instead of blaming other people for debating the points that they thought you were trying to make. Miscommunication is a two way thing.
I have NUMEROUS times to the point of being redundant. I have even done so in other threads and referred to them. It seems no one wishes to read them, nor read my proof given to support my arguments. I am simply "wrong", and that's all there is to it, apparently. I'm not blaming anyone. That would require me to directly accuse, something I have not done and the implication is spurious. As for the miscommunication part, you've not addressed the other side, merely mine. If miscommunication is a two way street, is that also implying that the other side of the argument is also involved?
Honestly, I think that Squirrama has an excellent point to everyone involved in this debate, not just Kieli.
edited because I think I understand Kira's point here
What you are saying is still individual experiences. Your own experience is not the definative of what other adults have gone through or will go through. A younger person can appreciate a meaningful relationship, there are so many different things that can happen that can affect the way a person view things, and these things can happen in variable time. It could be a slowly progressing thing, or something that happens in a matter of days.
I never said my personal experiences were the end all, be all. They are examples just like yours are. However, we're talking about a specific age group, between the ages of say 12-17, and it takes a certain level of experience and maturation to appreciate a meaningful relationship. These things I don't think kids in this age group have just yet overall, though there are some exceptions, for whatever reasons or however they came by those experiences. There are some good books on this subject.
Terry Apter's The Myth of Maturity (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393049426/002-5470951-1192005?v=glance&n=283155) is one such book. There are even articles related to the maturity in teens below:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040508/bob9.asp

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/teenagers/dn6738

http://www.nap.edu/html/adolescent/ (This one is about adolescent decision making)

It is obvious to me that there is a really big difference between having relations between someone closer to your age and a teen having relations with a man or woman 10-15 years there senior. There is a huge gap in maturity, experience, what have you. There are laws on statutory rape for a reason! I'm sure these countries didn't make them up arbitrarily. They are there to protect the child against the possibility of being taken advantage of. These concepts are not difficult to comprehend IMO, despite the handful of precocious teens. While they may be mature in intelligence, they may not necessarily be mature all around.

That being said, I've said all I'm going to on this issue. I think I've been more than clear on my personal stance.

But it was. And now it's part of the plot, in that what Sergay does with his order in the letter, and what ever his feelings for Arika may be, brotherly, fatherly, romantic, whatever, can really affect what happens in not only his life, or Arika’s, but possibly all of Windbloom (or Earl).
Unfortunately it is now part of the plot and that disturbs me. But I do agree with the rest of your statement. This is where the maturity comes in. He really needs to decide what the consequences of his actions will be in the long run. Arika has no clue and is just running headlong into situations, following her feelings, much like a good many teenagers do, exceptions notwithstanding.

Ronbo

2006-01-24, 10:01

Just to set the record straight.
In Japan the age of consent is 13 nationwide, 16 to 18 in most prefectures; however, age of marriage for a female with parental approval is 16.

Ref: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Age_of_consent

What does the age of consent mean?
The age of consent is the age when the law says you can agree to have sex. In most countries, until you reach this age you can't legally have sex with anyone, however old they are. Sometimes the law is slightly different when the partners are of a similar age, but there is usually still a minimum age below which sex is always illegal.

What is statutory rape?
Statutory rape is the crime that someone can be charged with if they have sex with a person who has not reached the age of consent but who agrees to have sex.

So long as both consenting partners are over the minimum age then differences in age, no matter how great they may be, does not legally matter! Socially it may be frowned upon, but no law either civil or criminal would have been broken.

Since this is Japanese Anime one would assume that any relationships portrayed would follow Japanese law. However! Mai Otome takes place off earth and therefore may have its own set of rules to follow given artistic license in a fantasy story.

Eclipze

2006-01-24, 10:13

Can we just....stop this debate and wait for the episode 16 thread?

We have people mis-reading each other, causing conflict. And yes, we have enough information about the laws of consent in japan, so no need to present even more.

Lets come straight to the point:
1) Its normal for a girl Arika's age to have a crush on an older man.
2) Its better for the older man(Sergey) to reject these feelings(which he did).
3) We're talking about ArikaXSergey relatonship, not nessasarily sex.
4) Though Arika has shown to be immature about relationships, the same can not be said about all teens.
5) There exists adults who are more immature than teens in relationships.
6) There exists teens who are more mature than adults in relationships.
7) We do not know the laws of the world of Mai Otome, especially not about age of consent.

Point 5 and 6 are literally the same thing, just want to make it clear.

Now can we stop?:uhoh:

Kieli

2006-01-24, 12:03

3) We're talking about ArikaXSergey relatonship, not nessasarily sex.
Have you tried to tell a 25 yr old man that he shouldn't have sex with his girlfriend?? :heh: Or even any man who is between the ages of 16-25 and is in a romantic relationship with a woman? I think to say that their romantic relationship would not include sex is a tad unrealistic. If, however, their relationship was one of friendship or a father/daughter one, then that would make more sense.
4) Though Arika has shown to be immature about relationships, the same can not be said about all teens.
If I recall correctly, this discussion was only supposed to focus on just Arika and not teens in general. Things got wayyyy off track.

imperialmog

2006-01-24, 12:27

Kieli

2006-01-24, 12:41

It is true that the relationship seems more like a father/daughter relationship.

Maybe I am just the only guy then who a romantic relationship without sex. Then again, I haven't had a relationship since I was 16.
It has always been the unspoken rule, I guess, that romance led to marriage which in turn lead to procreation. I suppose one could have a romantic relationship without sex but would you really want the object of your affection to go somewhere else to have their desires taken care of? :confused:

Asianknight82

2006-01-24, 14:41

I dont think Arika, is gonna run off and sleep with some random dude. And I think Sergey has enough self control to wait till "marriage" if that was the case. He has shown incredible restraint so far.

And as for my personal experience, since I started taking my engagment seriously 2 yrs ago. She told me she doesnt want to have sex till we were married. I totally respect that, and Ive stood by her decision since. Not all people have plug or get their hole plug every chance they get. Im sure there are other people out there that have had similar experiences. Although its been hard these past few years, I say its well worth it, but thats just me.

KiraDouji

2006-01-24, 15:31

I found no logic in the statement that precipated my being offended. None.

Like the fact that this statement makes no sense unless you correct the wording and is even then more than a little vague?

Thus you cannot use logic against me for a statement that had no logic to begin with. It sounded and looked to me like slandering a particular group of people. Had you left you the word "Americans" and not used any particular group, I might not have cared.

.... The discussion was pertaining to American values and Japanese values, thus I used Americans and a Japanese company. And whatever slander you found there you were looking for. Something squeaking American's isn't slander. The relationship between Arika and Sergey is leaning on taboo in American views. A point which you've more than proven in your own posts. How, exactly, is that statement slander?

But you feel it's ok to insult someone and you're the better person for it but I make a statement about something being very obvious and I am belitting. IMHO, that is hypocritical.

I don't know where you're getting this "better person" BS. The only thing I ever touched on is that your attitude is annoying and snarky. Yes that is my opinion. Yes that is something I have to deal with. No, that doesn't stop me from stating my opinion and explaining why I feel that way.

I made a statement that Arika's behaviour has not been shown to be mature and thus my opinion. You're comparing apples to oranges, logically speaking.

I'm not comparing anything. Where the heck are you getting this? I agreed with you on that statement. Arika is immature and doesn't know how to handle her emotions. How much clearer do I have to be? Why do you think I'm arguing this point with you?

To use your quote, if it comes off as snarky, that's your problem, not mine. I'm not excessively belitting, trust me.

Hon, take as much offense as you like to the statement "I don't trust you one bit" as you like. You have given me no reason to take your word on anything at all. In fact, you've done nothing but attack me and reply with a holier than thou attitude to every one of my posts. Our original debate was something I had enjoyed having up until the very last posts when you decided that I wasn't worth your dogs time. Pretend it isn't true all you want, but I made one post that wasn't even directed at you and you got up in arms over nothing. I really had nothing against you until you started this and frankly I wish you hadn't.

I disagree with many of the arguments presented but do not feel that all of it was logically stated. Some, not all. But you and I have been round and round with what you deem as logical and what I do not, fallacies notwithstanding.

And they don't stand. To date the only "fallacy" you've ever accused me of having was a fallacy that was impossible to apply to my logic given that it applied to a middle term which I had not presented. That case aside, I don't know how you can think that something as innocuous as a comparison of values is slander and yet fling vieled insults left and right and not feel hypocritical yourself.

I have NUMEROUS times to the point of being redundant.

Perhaps saying the same thing over and over again is the problem. Try something different?

I have even done so in other threads and referred to them. It seems no one wishes to read them, nor read my proof given to support my arguments. I am simply "wrong", and that's all there is to it, apparently.

Many of the people who have debated your points have specifically given counter examples and evidence to what you present. That's not someone just saying "you're wrong" that's someone saying "I disagree and here is why". If you see it as people attacking only your opinion, well, perhaps that's the reason these arguments continue on like this. Many people on this board have disagreed on many things and let them lie, not taken up arms to each other.

I'm not blaming anyone. That would require me to directly accuse, something I have not done and the implication is spurious.

The focus got off tangent by people arguing about generalities I wasn't initially speaking of.

So long as it's not you, I suppose.

As for the miscommunication part, you've not addressed the other side, merely mine. If miscommunication is a two way street, is that also implying that the other side of the argument is also involved?

Yes, and I believe I have pointed out each time that I am confused about what you are trying to say, so what, exactly, is the point of this reply?

I never said my personal experiences were the end all, be all. They are examples just like yours are. However, we're talking about a specific age group, between the ages of say 12-17, and it takes a certain level of experience and maturation to appreciate a meaningful relationship.

It is that assumption that people are arguing. You're treating it as fact while others debate it. That is the largest issue taken with your argument.

These things I don't think kids in this age group have just yet overall, though there are some exceptions, for whatever reasons or however they came by those experiences. There are some good books on this subject.
Terry Apter's The Myth of Maturity (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393049426/002-5470951-1192005?v=glance&n=283155) is one such book. There are even articles related to the maturity in teens below:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040508/bob9.asp

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/teenagers/dn6738

http://www.nap.edu/html/adolescent/ (This one is about adolescent decision making)

Not everyone feels the need to reference literature they may or may not agree with. This does not and should not affect how someone has presented their argument. You found a published author who shares the same views as you. That's great. I disagree with some of these views, as do others, and we've given our reasons. That is also great. I think we have firmly established, at this point, that there are two sides to this fence and no one wants to cross it.

It is obvious to me that there is a really big difference between having relations between someone closer to your age and a teen having relations with a man or woman 10-15 years there senior. There is a huge gap in maturity, experience, what have you. There are laws on statutory rape for a reason! I'm sure these countries didn't make them up arbitrarily. They are there to protect the child against the possibility of being taken advantage of. These concepts are not difficult to comprehend IMO, despite the handful of precocious teens. While they may be mature in intelligence, they may not necessarily be mature all around.

It is not an obvious assumption to everyone, particularly the dissentors. You know what else isn't difficult to comprehend? Someone agreeing that the laws are there for a reason and we understand them, but that it's still possible for a teenager to have a healthy romantic relationship with a significant other who may be older than them. I'd bet my left foot that the majority of adults who enter into such relationships aren't mature all around. There is the concept of growing through a relationship, which you invariably need to do anyway as you and your partner change. Having five more years under your belt doesn't necessarilly mean you'll make better decisions, so why is it that you seem to think that not having that five years extra experience means that a person is incapable of rendering good judgement?

That being said, I've said all I'm going to on this issue. I think I've been more than clear on my personal stance.

As have others. My point here is that, as I've said, there is a quite evident division of thought among the readers of this board, and that we should be respecting each other's opinions. You have your opinion. You have stated why, although in ways that many including myself cannot follow the logic of all the time. I have stated my opinion wherein I disagree agree with you. I have stated why, although you do not always agree or follow my logic. Great. So, let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Unfortunately it is now part of the plot and that disturbs me. But I do agree with the rest of your statement. This is where the maturity comes in. He really needs to decide what the consequences of his actions will be in the long run. Arika has no clue and is just running headlong into situations, following her feelings, much like a good many teenagers do, exceptions notwithstanding.

Change that "teenagers" to "people" and I agree completely.

- Kira