Fate/stay night Q&A

[GDB]

Doesn't help when you have ones like Unlimited Blade Works, which is ranked "E - A++".

[Cherry_Lover]

That's because UBW isn't an NP, it's an NP-producing mechanism. So, it doesn't strictly have a rank.

[GDB]

Well, it's classified under the Noble Phantasm tab in the game (I know it's a mechanic, since it has all those ??? in place of actual info, but still), the same as Gate of Babylon, which shares the same rank. If it has the E-A++ rank merely because it can generate other NP of those ranks... does that mean that there's a "true" NP for Shirou/Archer that he just isn't aware of? Or is there an A+++ rank that no one knows about yet? After all, if projection drops things a rank, then one of those has to be true for this ranking to be true.

[Cherry_Lover]

Archer has no NP, because an NP is the symbol of a hero, and Archer isn't a hero. Note that, to use it, he doesn't scream "UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS" at the top of his voice in the way that Saber screams "EX-CALIBAAAAA".

But, both GoB (which is an NP) and UBW are classified like that because then can generate other NPs with those listed ranks, so they don't fit well into the rank classification system.

[orangejuicetang]

Well, technically UBW isn't a 'true Noble Phantasm' according to Archer, but it also is? A bit confusing. I believe he said something like 'Noble Phantasm? In the first place, I don't have such a thing. But if a Noble Phantasm is the symbol of a hero, than I suppose you can call this my Noble Phantasm.'

Oh, and also Fragarch has a similar rank.

blah blah blah, here we go.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6821/fsnubw1.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8356/fsnubw2.jpg

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah. I think the distinction is that there are two different (but usually co-inciding) definitions of an NP. The first is "a magical artifact of immense power" (or something like that), which, for example, would include Fragarach but not UBW. The other (which is the way the status screen uses it) is "the symbol of a hero", in which case UBW qualifies, but not Fragarach (since Fragarach isn't attached to any one hero, it is passed down the Fraga bloodline).

As for Fragarach, I believe that that has two ranks. If it's used as a counter-attack, then it's rank A, but if it's used otherwise, then it's rank D.

[Polar_Lord]

I've been looking around a bit but I can't find the answer to this. Can someone explain how Hrunting was used in Hollow Ataraxia and against whom?

Just another one, do you guys think it is actually possible to rank the Servants according to their 'power'? Or would there be too many factors to consider?

And finally, how do Rider's glasses block her Mystic Eyes of Petrification? In HF, she states that even though she can control them to an extent, she'll still end up hurting people if she takes off her Breaker Gorgon and yet with mere glasses, nobody seems to be affected.

[Cherry_Lover]

Just another one, do you guys think it is actually possible to rank the Servants according to their 'power'? Or would there be too many factors to consider?

It is to a certain extent, yes. But, at the same time, there are still exceptions, where a weaker servant can take down a stronger one.

And finally, how do Rider's glasses block her Mystic Eyes of Petrification? In HF, she states that even though she can control them to an extent, she'll still end up hurting people if she takes off her Breaker Gorgon and yet with mere glasses, nobody seems to be affected.

In the same way that Shiki's glasses block his MEoDP. The glasses Rin gets for her (I can't remember now if Rin actually made them, or got them from someone else, probably Touko since she had to go there anyway) are magical Mystic Eye killer glasses.

[GDB]

I've been looking around a bit but I can't find the answer to this. Can someone explain how Hrunting was used in Hollow Ataraxia and against whom?

From what I read, it seemed to basically be a homing missile that Archer used against Shirou. Not sure how that translates to the lore behind Hrunting, since Hrunting was just supposed to be the "Sword that Never Failed", except never failing to hit the target, I guess? Even though the sword did fail Beowulf when he used it, and it's supposed to be certain victory, not certain accuracy, so who knows.

Just another one, do you guys think it is actually possible to rank the Servants according to their 'power'? Or would there be too many factors to consider?

I'd say there's too many factors. You could rank a Servant against another Servant, but not as a whole. Standard metagame type of thing: rock-paper-scissors.

And finally, how do Rider's glasses block her Mystic Eyes of Petrification? In HF, she states that even though she can control them to an extent, she'll still end up hurting people if she takes off her Breaker Gorgon and yet with mere glasses, nobody seems to be affected.

Ever read/watch X-Men? Same way Cyclops' visor and sunglasses work, I would presume.

[orangejuicetang]

Just another one, do you guys think it is actually possible to rank the Servants according to their 'power'? Or would there be too many factors to consider?

Well, you could get a general picture or a sort of tiers if you will. Just don't be surprised if a lower tier defeats an upper tier. For example, Hercules, Gilgamesh, and Arturia are all definitely near top tier. But we know Gilgamesh loses to Archer, who would be more mid tier if we're talking about 'power'.

[Cherry_Lover]

If you're talking about servants, then Archer isn't 'mid-tier', he's pretty much bottom. It's just that his True Eye of the Mind allows him to fight successfully against people who should be above him. Also, Gil would beat Archer if he was fighting properly from the very start, because in the time it takes for Archer to say "I am the bone of my sword", Gil could have easily pulled out Ea, shouted "Enuma Elish" and obliterated him. It's just that Gil never does that, against anyone.

[Polar_Lord]

So what happened after Archer fired it at Shirou? I'd doubt that he has the ability to dodge a Mach 12 arrow so I guess Saber helped him?

True Eye of the Mind allows Archer to fight successfully even when the odds are stacked against him right? In that sense, would that skill/parameter be a luck enhancer of sorts? Or does Servant luck have a different effect?

@Cherry Lover
Heh, if Gilgamesh bothered pulling Ea all the time, then nobody except for an Avaloned Saber would be able to survive since it seems impossible to dodge right?

[orangejuicetang]

Point 1. 'What happened after Archer fired it at Shirou?'
Shirou died. And then he dies again. I think he dies the first time he brings Saber with him too. Eventually, at one point, he knows 'lol, if I walk, I'm agonna get sniped' so he goes with Saber, and then uses a command spell that launches her like a missile at Archer.

Or something like that.

Eye of the Mind (True) is basically just really good battle sense. In other words, it's applying knowledge from previous experiences and using them to take the best possible course of action. For Servants, the Luck stat measures their ability to defy destiny or something like that.

@Cherry Lover
That's like saying Archer sets up a xanatos roulette, luring Gilgamesh into an open field with a fake message from Saber and then proceeding to snipe him from 3 miles away.

[Cherry_Lover]

@Cherry Lover
That's like saying Archer sets up a xanatos roulette, luring Gilgamesh into an open field with a fake message from Saber and then proceeding to snipe him from 3 miles away.

I wasn't claiming it was realistic, just that Gil can beat Archer if he fights to his full potential. Of course, like Polar_Lord said, Gil could beat anyone if he did that. Hell, he could even beat Avalon Saber if he knew about Avalon (because then he'd just have to wait until she switches Avalon off and then use Ea on her).

[orangejuicetang]

But doesn't that go back to what I said? Gilgamesh is on the top powerwise, but in an actual fight Archer ones due to the various factors like Gilgamesh's ego.

[Polar_Lord]

What are the actual limitations of Projection magic? In Fate, there were seemingly no side-effects (although from memory, he only traced Caliburn twice and Avalon once); In UBW, it caused nerve damage and in HF, it caused brain damage (as a result of interference from Archer's arm).

Considering that Archer apparently projected enough to make his hair go white and his skin incredibly tanned and is still completely 'healthy', could it be said that there is no drawback to projection?

[orangejuicetang]

There's a drawback to overusing projection, which is pretty much the same with any other magic. Rin mentions that 'using magic beyond your capacity is suicide', but due to the circumstances, that exactly what Shirou ends up doing. He doesn't really have any side-effects in Fate because he doesn't rely on it as much. In Fate he still has Saber to fight with. It's only in UBW and HF that he really starts to fight by himself that he needs to over-rely on Projection and go way beyond what he should do.

[Arbitres]

Projection might have random side-effects. But that is unlikely, His hair might actually have turned white because of the immense stress or psychological trauma he went through while as a Counter Guardian. Mind you, that is simply speculation, as I have to say nothing about his skin becoming tan -- projection probably did do it. Though -how- he is healthy is beyond me. Maybe Archer eventually used reinforcement magic mixed with projection... That itself sounds hard to believe.

I wouldn't know how or what the draw backs can be. Projection probably does damage health, maybe it even affects lifespan? That might be a possibility.

[GDB]

We don't even really know how old Archer is, so there's no telling what caused the change in appearance. He could just be 40+ years older than Shirou is now, so age plus the stress of helping people turned his hair white, and constant battle damage and... being outside, I guess, could tan him to that degree.

[orangejuicetang]

Projection in and of itself isn't that dangerous a magic. It's actually pretty basic, and pretty useless, since it just creates the 'form' with the 'contents'. Shirou, due to his unique methodology for his projection and his reality marble, takes projection to the next level. But simply using it correctly shouldn't have any more drawback than Rin storing her prana in jewels. The problem is that A. Shirou was initially projecting the wrong way i.e. creating an artificial circuit in his nerve every time he used magic instead of using his magic circuits, and B. as I've said before, he's overusing/abusing it. It'd be like if Rin suddenly decided she had to fill up five jewels with prana per night. Of course, she'd lose alot more blood than normally and it's likely that she'd damage her body in the process. But that doesn't mean that jewel magic has the drawback of making you anemic. It just means that overusing any magic, including projection, will come with negative drawbacks to your health.

[Hasgard]

sorry about the newbie question, but the depth of magic in this series intrigues me,
i know projection and reinforcement are two of this series "fields of magic". I just want to know how many are there, what they are and how are they properly called.

[Arbitres]

Magic is prana dependant, a magi's magical circuits playing an important part in how well they transmogify prana into magic, giving the magic more destructive force and so on, it's variable depending on the magic.

Magic can be enchant, reinforcement, tracing/faking, etc etc. Sort of like white magic and black magic. Some can be enchanted into items to create a specific barrier, or some can be emblazoned onto weapons to give them special properties.

Prana/mana is lifeblood to a magi, it's important in their role as Masters in the Grail War. It isn't necessary, as seen by Sensei Kuzuki.

...etcetera etcetera. Probably got some stuff wrong, but meh...

[Cherry_Lover]

*Note - this post will contain minor spoilers, both for the anime and the game*

sorry about the newbie question, but the depth of magic in this series intrigues me,

i know projection and reinforcement are two of this series "fields of magic". I just want to know how many are there, what they are and how are they properly called.

The simple answer to those questions, in order, are: "lots", "there isn't a good definition of 'fields'" and "we don't really know all of them". Magic in the Nasuverse is very complicated (the Magic Association is basically a big organisation solely devoted to studying it), and most of the information on it is only in Fate/Zero (which is partially translated) and the Side Material books (which aren't translated at all).

However, there is some stuff we can work out. Firstly, every magus has an elemental affinity, which corresponds to the spells that they are most proficient in. The most usual ones are Fire, Water, Air, Earth and Ether (which are the five main elements), although there are others (Sakura has an elemental affinity called "imaginary numbers" or "shadow", which is a sub-set of the sixth element). Rin, however, is what is called an "Average One", which means that she's capable of using all five main elements. Each element corresponds to certain types of spell, although the correspondance isn't always obvious and I don't remember exactly what each element means.

As far as 'fields' go, the only ones I can think of are: projection/reinforcement (which are similar but not identical to Shirou's tracing, which isn't a 'field' of magic because it comes from his Reality Marble and thus is unique to him), Jewel Tharmaturgy (the ability to put prana into jewels, like Rin does, which is (I believe) actually a sub-set of energy manipulation and transfer), curses (like Gandr), binding magic (which is the Matou speciality, and which is how the command spell system for the Grail War works), healing magic (which Irisviel and Kotomine specialise in) and soul manipulation (moving souls from one body to another, which Ilya is exceptionally proficient in, and which is behind the Grail system itself). There are certainly others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

[Sanger Zonvolt]

What would be the best alternative to delving into the Fate/Stay Night Universe for someone who isn't a fan of visual novels, the anime or the manga, or do neither do it justice and I shouldn't bother?

[Cherry_Lover]

The best 'alternative' is downloading/buying the game and playing it....

Neither the manga or the anime does it justice at all. But, if you absolutely must choose one (and I would definitely recommend playing the VN, because the anime only covers one route, which is the weakest one, plus the anime is an inferior adaptation of it) then watch the anime. The manga is awful. The anime is actually not that bad, but compared to the game it's a huge step downwards.

But, yeah, play the game. If you don't, you'll miss out on a huge part of the story, plus the anime manages to spoiler most of the major plot twists from the UBW and HF routes of the game (which are awesome, BTW, especially HF) without actually giving you any of the awesome bits of it.

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Alrite thank you, anime it is.

[Cherry_Lover]

Seriously, what exactly is your objection to Visual Novels? Unless you have a very good reason for not wanting to play one, then play the game. It's a lot better, and you won't miss 2/3 of the story (the best 2/3, at that), and you won't get something that totally ignores several of the best characters.

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Just not a fan of that type of game, I find them to be boring.

[GDB]

Understandable, if you don't get the voice patch. With the voice patch, it's like a lower quality manga visually, but about equal to the anime in terms of audio. Then the storytelling is much better.

When I first watched the anime, I did so before the VN. It was pretty good to average. Now, the only episode I can watch is ep14, since that's the only part that's vastly superior to the VN.

[Cherry_Lover]

Just not a fan of that type of game, I find them to be boring.

But you'd be happy reading a manga, even though it's less good as a story? All a visual novel is is a manga on a computer, basically. It helps if you think of it as a story (to be read) rather than a game (to be played).

[Polar_Lord]

I read somewhere that Rider has the ability to manipulate dreams and that she used this ability in order to get mana from Shirou in HF. Not sure if I missed it but where did this occur? Was it the dream about Tohsaka or was that unrelated?

[GDB]

I read somewhere that Rider has the ability to manipulate dreams and that she used this ability in order to get mana from Shirou in HF. Not sure if I missed it but where did this occur? Was it the dream about Tohsaka or was that unrelated?

Based on Rin's eyes in that scene, I'd say that's likely what occurred.

[Polar_Lord]

Ahh, if that's the case, how is it that Rider managed to get Shirou's mana? Through the 'normal' method? :eyebrow:

[GDB]

Ahh, if that's the case, how is it that Rider managed to get Shirou's mana? Through the 'normal' method? :eyebrow:

Yeah, the "normal" method. Multiple times, as she did something to him so he couldn't wake up under his own command. I think she took like 5 "rounds", maybe even more.

[Polar_Lord]

Hmm, wouldn't Saber have sensed if her Master was being 'siphoned' in the next room? Not to mention the boundary field around the house. I mean, it's not like Rider has Presence Concealment like Assassin...

[Cherry_Lover]

Hmm, wouldn't Saber have sensed if her Master was being 'siphoned' in the next room? Not to mention the boundary field around the house. I mean, it's not like Rider has Presence Concealment like Assassin...

Yeah, it's kind of odd how Saber fails to notice either Rider's presence in the house or the fact that she was having sex with Shirou. The boundary field isn't an issue, though, because it detects people with 'hostile intent', and Rider doesn't have any.

[Polar_Lord]

In HF, how is Sakura able to revive Rider after Saber killed her the first time?

[Cherry_Lover]

In HF, how is Sakura able to revive Rider after Saber killed her the first time?

Because she wasn't actually killed. If you notice, Zouken destroys the book, and then she instantly vanishes, having just been lying there, still alive. Shirou assumes that it killed her, because he thought that the book was her command seal, and thus that she'd lost her master, but given that Sakura is a better master than Shinji, it makes no sense that having the book destroyed would finish her off, when it should actually make her heal quicker. Presumably she just turned into spirit form and left (Saber can't attack her in spiritual form, of course), or else Sakura summoned her back.

[Polar_Lord]

Ahh, thanks for that. I guess I didn't pay enough attention to that part.

In Fate/Zero, Emiya Kiritsugu possesses a Mystic Code that fires 'Origin' bullets that are apparently able to damage the magus even if it only hits their barrier. If that was the case, what would happen if one of those bullets were to hit Rho Aias, assuming it was being projected by Shirou? Would the bullet's effect transmit through the mana filled shield or is Aias not considered a magical barrier and therefore ineffective?

[orangejuicetang]

My guess? Probably. Depends on whether or not Rhos Aius counts as 'magecraft' or not.

Hmm. Probably if he just projects it and nothing else, it might not affect him, but if he's constantly pumping in prana to strengthen it like Archer did against Lancer it might work. Not sure.

[Cherry_Lover]

My guess? Probably. Depends on whether or not Rhos Aius counts as 'magecraft' or not.

Rho Aias is a Noble Phantasm, not 'magecraft', so I doubt hitting it with one of Kiritsugu's mystic code bullets would have an effect, any more than it would if you shot Excalibur with it.

[Polar_Lord]

Ok then, let's look at the facts.

Kiritsugu's magecraft bullets have the ability to damage the Magus even if they erect a magical barrier. This fact is proven when Kayneth is left dying from the bullet's effects even though his Volumen Hydragyrum clearly blocked the bullet.

Presumably then, as long as the barrier has contact with the magus's mana, the bullet's effect will channel through and cause the feedback pulse.

Rho Aias, as Cherry_Lover accurately states, is a Noble Phantasm and thus possesses abilities beyond that in the modern world. NP's are presumably also the reason why real world weapons have no effect on Servants.

However, Kiritsugu's magecraft bullet is an Anti-Magus weapon and like Orangejuicetang pointed out, if Aias was being pumped full of mana at the time of impact, I think it is possible that the bullet would be able to have its effect.


I guess the main questions are as follows:
Would there be a difference if Archer, a Servant, and not Shirou were pumping mana into it? And would the Concept of being an Ultimate shield against Projectile Weapons be able to protect from the Conceptual Weapon of Severing and Binding? Ultimately, would it be a battle of concepts?

Any thoughts people?

[Xellos-_^]

Ok then, let's look at the facts.

Kiritsugu's magecraft bullets have the ability to damage the Magus even if they erect a magical barrier. This fact is proven when Kayneth is left dying from the bullet's effects even though his Volumen Hydragyrum clearly blocked the bullet.

Presumably then, as long as the barrier has contact with the magus's mana, the bullet's effect will channel through and cause the feedback pulse.

Rho Aias, as Cherry_Lover accurately states, is a Noble Phantasm and thus possesses abilities beyond that in the modern world. NP's are presumably also the reason why real world weapons have no effect on Servants.

However, Kiritsugu's magecraft bullet is an Anti-Magus weapon and like Orangejuicetang pointed out, if Aias was being pumped full of mana at the time of impact, I think it is possible that the bullet would be able to have its effect.


I guess the main questions are as follows:
Would there be a difference if Archer, a Servant, and not Shirou were pumping mana into it? And would the Concept of being an Ultimate shield against Projectile Weapons be able to protect from the Conceptual Weapon of Severing and Binding? Ultimately, would it be a battle of concepts?

Any thoughts people?

i think it would affect the shield but it would be like shooting a dino with a musket. The dino would get shot but it probably wouldn't even feel it.

[Polar_Lord]

I guess that the power of a Concept would probably also depend on the strength of the user, in this case, a Servant vs a Human and we all know that's a complete mismatch...

Just a question, how is it that Shirou has 27 Magic Circuits, which is close to 75% of Rin, who has the backing of generations of Tohsaka inheritance? I mean, this is considering the fact that he came from a non-magical background right? Was it a fluke of nature?

[Cherry_Lover]

Just a question, how is it that Shirou has 27 Magic Circuits, which is close to 75% of Rin, who has the backing of generations of Tohsaka inheritance? I mean, this is considering the fact that he came from a non-magical background right? Was it a fluke of nature?

It's not just the number of circuits that matters, it's the quality. Rin may only have 40 (natural) circuits (although, I'm not totally sure about that, because Sakura and Rin are identical in terms of power, and Rin has 100 circuits in total, with 60 supposedly coming from her crest), but they're much higher quality than Shirou's. Shirou is actually about average for a magus. Rin (and, indeed, Sakura) are way above average. Rin is probably ten times as powerful as Shirou in terms of inate ability.

As for Shirou's background, we don't actually know that he came from a non-magical background. It's pretty likely that his parents weren't practising magi (because, if they were, they'd have known to get the hell out of Fuyuki during the Grail War...), but it's quite possible that he is descended from a family of magi that decided to give up practising magecraft. Also, his survival of the fire probably has something to do with his potential, so it's quite possible that it was a selection effect (the most naturally powerful magus managed to survive the fire longest and thus got picked up by Kiritsugu).

[orangejuicetang]

I've never been a fan of the 'Shirou may be a descendant of fallen magus family'. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 'lol fluke of nature, happens to have magic circuits.' Take a look at both Ciel and Satsuki from Tsukihime, both of whom are definitely fluke of natures with no magic background in their family and yet surpass Tohsaka in pure magic potential.

[Cherry_Lover]

I've never been a fan of the 'Shirou may be a descendant of fallen magus family'. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 'lol fluke of nature, happens to have magic circuits.' Take a look at both Ciel and Satsuki from Tsukihime, both of whom are definitely fluke of natures with no magic background in their family and yet surpass Tohsaka in pure magic potential.

Well, I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying that we simply don't know. (For that matter, we don't actually know with Ciel or Sacchin either, because it's possible to be descended from a family of magi without knowing it, like Caster's master in the fourth war). But, I suspect that the fact that he survived the fire probably has something to do with his ability as a magus, wherever he got that ability from.

[orangejuicetang]

Well, look at it this way. A magus bloodline has to start somewhere. Regardless, it's just as unlikely for Ciel or Sacchin to be descended from a magus family as it is for them to be descended from common people, since it would be like Shinji's son happening to have magic potential on par with Ilya or something ridiculous like that. Regardless, Ciel or Sacchin level of magic potential would be a fluke of nature even for somebody like Tohsaka or Sakura's kid. Let's take a look at Tsukihime.


But I don't think there are others like Yumizuka-san. It takes many years before a vampire can function as a vampire.
For her to be able to function immediately, Yumizuka Satsuki must have had amazing spiritual conception."

"Eh…? Spiritual conception? What's that?"
"A functional extent of the brain determined when a person is an embryo---or so it is said. Like how you use your ability, it is employing a section of the brain most people never use.
The same for Yumizuka Satsuki. She was naturally 'suitable'. So, instead of being under the control of her parent vampire, she became a vampire that could act independently."

Eh, now that I think about it, it might go like this. Magic Circuits are generally something that randomly happens. However, when two maguses with magic circuit have a child, it increases the chance that the child will also be born with magic circuits. It'd probably function in a similar way to mystic eyes. The way the Nanaya's originally didn't have mystic eyes or esp or whatever the hell it was, until one of them got it by a genetic fluke, and since then they've been inbreeding to keep that ability. Magic Circuits probably function in a similar way, you have a chance of getting them when you're born, but if your parents are magus the chance goes up.

I agree with the fact that his ability to survive the fire had something do with his magic potential, I just dislike the notion that 'lol Shirou is actually the heir to a powerful magic family which explains all his abilities'. That kind of plot is just so... overused.

[Xellos-_^]

It'd probably function in a similar way to mystic eyes. The way the Nanaya's originally didn't have mystic eyes or esp or whatever the hell it was, until one of them got it by a genetic fluke, and since then they've been inbreeding to keep that ability.

the mystic eyes is not a genetic fluke. Shiki (nanaya) wasn't born with the Eye of Death. He died when Shiki(tohno) kill him and was revive by Akiha. When Shiki(nanaya) was dead he manage to touch the Root of All things, that is how he got his powers. it has nothing to do with genetics or bloodline.

and the Nanaya are super demon assassins with almost super human reflexs but they do not have any mystic powers.

[orangejuicetang]

No, Shiki (Nanaya) already had mystic eyes when he was born. It's just the near-death, touching Akasha thing mutated them into the MEoDP.

But still, a power out of the rule can be a threat to those who lives inside the rule.
The Demon Hunters hide their existence in the beginning and use them to catch the hybrids off guard by having them appear in the middle of the battle.
It's kind of like saying a psychic's support is a stone that is thrown between two people glaring at each other.
The Psychics use their abilities out of the standard, to just once, create an decisive opening in their opponent.
That's how Demon Hunters use the psychics, and even for the hybrids, they were just a bothersome unpredictable factor.

Yes.
There's not a chance in a million in this world that such thing as a psychic ability, which is only a power of a human, can defeat a Demon that is nature,
-----However, here was an one in a million Demon God.
From the ancient times, the Nanayas lived for generations without mixing their blood.
Many hideous children were born for being incestuous, but the ones who were able to grow up became powerful.
Repeating that single blending was the reason they were able to solidly carry on their Psychic Abilities which is suppose to be a mutational gene that lasts only for one generation.

On top of that, the Nanayas polished their skills as an assassin and learned a way to bring home alive the Psychics who were normally on a suicidal mission.
As a result,
we have the Nanaya clan with a power outside the boundary of human, and, the human body trained to the limit
At that point, they were not considered a clan with a psychic ability, but as a clan which is specially given the title of the Demon Hunters.

That was the only way for the Nanaya family, who were psychics discriminated even more so than the hybrids at times, to show their usefulness and live.
That's how the Demon Hunters possessed the Nanayas as their absolute war power.
A long and boring time passed by after that.
....the Nanayas kept on being the greatest assassins.
They knew more than anyone else that the moment they fall down from the top is when the Nanaya bloodline will die out.


continuing on, this is what Shiki was born with

淨眼 - Jougan
Pure eyes. The ability to see "things that normally can't be seen." The ones Kiri had were relatively too weak to be considered proper Jougan; his could see a misty rendition of the thoughts of others, but that was relatively useless.. Note that Jougan are not supposed to do what Shiki's eyes do.

Shiki's eyes had originally been for Jougan. By experiencing temporary death, he was connected to Akasha and his brain came to understand death. His eyes work as a set with his brain and so he he could see death directly.

Using his eyes on his own will causes them to turn blue, the color of normal activated Jougan.

[Xellos-_^]

you got this form?

[orangejuicetang]

The top quote came from the short story 'Red Demon God' in Kagetsu Tohya which focuses on Shiki's father Nanaya Kiri and also on Kishima Kouma. The bottom two quotes came from fuyuki which is currently down right now.

[Polar_Lord]

Did Rin inherit the Tohsaka Magic Crest before the 4th Holy Grail War or did she somehow get it off Tokiomi's dead body?

[Cherry_Lover]

Did Rin inherit the Tohsaka Magic Crest before the 4th Holy Grail War or did she somehow get it off Tokiomi's dead body?

She got it off Tokiomi's body, although she may have begun the process before his death (I'm not entirely sure how crest inheritance works). The epilogue of Fate/Zero shows her doing so, I believe.

[Polar_Lord]

Oh, I somehow had the impression that Magic Crests disappear on death but I guess I was wrong.

Can projection in general actually copy Noble Phantasms to the same degree as Shirou's or is his method the only way that works properly i.e. his 7 point process plus RM?

Also, do the things that Shirou traces actually last? I know that Caliburn disappeared shortly after Heracles died but what about the objects in his shed that pissed Rin off so badly?

[Cherry_Lover]

Oh, I somehow had the impression that Magic Crests disappear on death but I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, you were wrong. There are several cases of a magus taking their magic crest from the dead body of their parent (Kiritsugu did, for example).

Can projection in general actually copy Noble Phantasms to the same degree as Shirou's or is his method the only way that works properly i.e. his 7 point process plus RM?

I'm pretty sure ordinary projection can't copy weapons like that, no. For a start, ordinary projection works by the magus thinking of what they want to make and then making it. But doing that only allows you to make a superficial copy. To trace it like Shirou does, you need to be able to analyse it like he does, and understand it's composition, which is something that a normal magus simply can't do.

Also, do the things that Shirou traces actually last? I know that Caliburn disappeared shortly after Heracles died but what about the objects in his shed that pissed Rin off so badly?

Things that Shirou traces last as long indefinitely if they're perfect (I think it has something to do with his perception, so if he percieves it to be flawed, then it'll vanish). In Fate, he's not really got the hang of his tracing, so his traced objects aren't perfect, and thus disappear pretty fast. The objects in his shed he did when he was just working on intuition, and thus they don't vanish.

[orangejuicetang]

IIRC, it had something to do with Noble Phantasms being extremely complicated to trace, so they would always have minute 'flaws', and as long as those flaws existed, the world would try to deny their existence, hence why they eventually disappeared. The closer it is to the original, the longer it can exist, and if it is perfectly identical, than in theory it should be able to stay indefinitely. But of course since it's impossible to trace a Noble Phantasm perfectly, they'll always disappear. Except maybe for the Avalon Shirou traced at the end of Fate since as far as I recall, that was his only 'perfect' projection.

Also, a basic summary of the difference between Shirou projection and normal projection is that normal projection just copies the 'form' while Shirou's copies both the 'form' and 'what's inside'.

[GDB]

Except maybe for the Avalon Shirou traced at the end of Fate since as far as I recall, that was his only 'perfect' projection.

I didn't think that was a projection, but him actually extracting Avalon from his body (perhaps via projection). So it was still the real thing, just perhaps with a traced form.

[orangejuicetang]

It couldn't be him extracting Avalon from his body because Avalon shouldn't be there anymore since he removed it and gave it to Saber.


"-Trace on"

The spell to begin the projection is murmured.
In an instant.

It is completed, omitting every step of manufacture.

…That is right. There was no need to reproduce it from scratch.
Because this shape was engraved in the body. It is perfect in memory as it was part of Emiya Shirou's body.

'-You were my sheath-'

The arm reaching out still moves.
The weapon created without concentration or spellcasting is grabbed.

The world changes completely as the darkness is destroyed by a golden light and in Emiya Shirou's hand is the perfectly reproduced sheath of Saber.

[Arbitres]

Who would win in a fight

Zero Lancer or Fate Lancer? Both are from irish mythology and both are lancer class. Both are incredibly agile and dangerous.

I mean in the formality of a fair and even fight to the death against them. OTOH it would be esier to tell me who would win based on their masters as well.

Bazette of course has fragarach, which basically translate as a 'I double F8cking dog dare you to use noble phantasm* :heh:

[Xellos-_^]

Who would win in a fight

Zero Lancer or Fate Lancer? Both are from irish mythology and both are lancer class. Both are incredibly agile and dangerous.

I mean in the formality of a fair and even fight to the death against them. OTOH it would be esier to tell me who would win based on their masters as well.

Bazette of course has fragarach, which basically translate as a 'I double F8cking dog dare you to use noble phantasm* :heh:
Fate Lancer, his moves is a instant kill unless the other guy has a lot of luck and after reading vol3 of Zero, Luck is the one thing Zero lancer doesn't have.

[GDB]

It couldn't be him extracting Avalon from his body because Avalon shouldn't be there anymore since he removed it and gave it to Saber.

Oh, thought that was the one you were talking about. Always forget he projects it again against Kotomine since it just kind of disappears after he escapes the miasma.

[orangejuicetang]

Who would win in a fight

Zero Lancer or Fate Lancer? Both are from irish mythology and both are lancer class. Both are incredibly agile and dangerous.

I mean in the formality of a fair and even fight to the death against them. OTOH it would be esier to tell me who would win based on their masters as well.

Bazette of course has fragarach, which basically translate as a 'I double F8cking dog dare you to use noble phantasm* :heh:

Way too many variables. Let me think. Nasu said that if they were fighting in Ireland, Fate (I'm just going to use Fate and Zero to distinguish) would have the advantage, but if they fought elsewhere, Zero would have the advantage due to better master support. But then again, Fate has that NP that kills based on luck and Zero has crappy luck, so I don't know. Are we including NPs or is this just a fight with pure skill to the death?

[Arbitres]

I can see the variables... I also mean no hold bars, the only true 'fight to the death' fight there is.

Noble phantasm, master support, so on and what else a amster and servant does.

From the sounds of it, I was right. Fate lancer would win because of his noble phantasm, but because Zero lancer has horrible luck he would need a miracle to dodge it.

If Zero lancer used his noble phantasm, then Bazette would use Fragarach, so Zero lancer pretty much loses this one.

Thanks... though the answer was relatively obvious. :heh:

[Polar_Lord]

I was under the impression that Fragarach required some kind of "Finishing Move" to be activated. Zero Lancer's NP's seem more to be passive in effect and don't have the same kind of one-use-powerful attack effect as Gae Bolg for example and so probably wouldn't trigger Fragarach.

So I'd reckon that Fragarach would be useless in a fight against Zero Lancer.

In terms of Master support, Bazett against Kayneth is hard to say. Since Bazett is a specialised mage hunter she may eventually find a way past Volumen Hydragyrum's "Ultimate Defence". In short, we probably don't have enough data to suport a judgment on this.

[orangejuicetang]

Fragarach only activates against the 'trump card'. So it can be hard to say. For example, Fragarch is useless against Fate Caster because none of her spells technically count as a 'trump card'. Also, it likely wouldn't activate against Gil's GoB because Ea is Gil's trump card.

[Cherry_Lover]

Fragarach requires the servant to use their 'trump card'. In the case of a servant with an NP, that means to use their most powerful NP. But, with a servant like Zero Lancer, whose NP is always active, it's not clear what it would mean. Apparently, though, using it on Berserker works (because God Hand counts as his 'trump card', and is always active), although it only kills him once. So, it might be that it will work on Zero Lancer if he uses the effects of his spears.

[xris]

Who would win in a fight
From the opening post.
the purpose of this thread is to ask questions that can actually be answered as facts from the anime or game.
As far as I can see your pist is basically a "versus" question which can only be based on personal opinion. Or in other words, further posts or replies on this will be deleted :)

[Polar_Lord]

normal projection just copies the 'form' while Shirou's copies both the 'form' and 'what's inside'.

Can Shirou examine the internals of all NPs just by looking at them? I got the impression in UBW when he fought Gilgamesh that he could only copy the exterior form because he didn't have time to analyse them.


Also, when Shirou traces and copies Archer's copied NPs, would those NPs be decreased a further rank or would they be the same rank as Archer's?

[Polar_Lord]

Can Weapons-based Noble Phantasms be broken by other Noble Phantasms e.g. Excalibur snapping Rule Breaker in a head on clash?

[rastilin]

Can Weapons-based Noble Phantasms be broken by other Noble Phantasms e.g. Excalibur snapping Rule Breaker in a head on clash?

Yes

In Fate/Stay..Saber damages Assasin's weapon in a head on struggle. Also, in UBW Shirou destroys Gilgamesh's weapons by attacking them with their duplicates.

In Fate/Zero..Lancer shatters one of his spears by hitting it with the other.

[Polar_Lord]

I don't think Assassin's weapon counts since it isn't a Noble Phantasm and Zero Lancer snapped his lance with his brute strength.

But regardless, I forgot about Shirou destroying Gilgamesh's weapons so thanks for answering.

Just a question, how interconnected are the different concepts in each of the Nasuverse works?

[y0shi]

Just finished the series and I'm left in confusion :(

I watched Umineko/Higrashi so I guess its something similar, that a novel adaption has to leave soo much stuff out.

What was that stuff about caster/the teacher? What is the connection between sakura and rin? What was that whole ritual thing about?

I also didnt really get the king arthur part, what happened in sabers past?
When she returned in the end, was it about that she accepted what happened and that she probably would die there? And that that wouldnt mean that she failed? And she requested the sword to be sunk as a sign that it was over for her?

And what was the "villains" aim/story etc? I understood nothing but blabla? Why was gil cursed when Saber destroyed the grail the last time? Did the villain (forgot his name) make gil drink from the grail so he would stay?

And most important, why did saber go back? Didnt she decide in the episode where lancer died that she would acept her past and move on?

I also read something about a story where they meet saber again since shes sleeping somewhere?

Also if I want to read more, what should I get? Books, Visual Novels? How much more stuff is there? is there a Manga? And how are the novels? I tried the Higurashi novel but, although its good, its just too long for me and got boring. Are the FSN novels shorter?

Thanks =D

[Cherry_Lover]

What was that stuff about caster/the teacher?

They're in love. She killed her previous master (who was abusing her) after tricking him into using all three command spells and, because the Master supplies the prana for the servant and acts as an anchor for them to stay in the world, that meant that she rapidly ran out of prana and was dying. Then, Soichirou came across her, took her back to the temple and looked after her, making a contract with her and having sex with her to give her prana, leading to her falling in love with him (and, indeed, him falling in love with her).

What is the connection between sakura and rin?

They're sisters.

What was that whole ritual thing about?

It was some rubbish made up by the anime writers to allow them to include the Sakura/Rin subplot and show more of Caster than following the Fate route would allow.

I also didnt really get the king arthur part, what happened in sabers past?

Well, the obvious answer would be to read the legend which her story is based on. Nasu never actually altered the details (gender-swapping Saber isn't actually incompatible with the legend as it stands, because even in the Nasuverse King Arthur was generally thought of as being male).

When she returned in the end, was it about that she accepted what happened and that she probably would die there?

She knew that she was dying even before she was summoned. Getting the Grail was a dying wish, so she could undo her past, and allow someone more suitable to be king.

And that that wouldnt mean that she failed?

Yeah, pretty much. She accepted that she had done the best she could have done for her country, and that it would be wrong to reject her whole life as worthless by going back and not pulling the sword from the stone.

And she requested the sword to be sunk as a sign that it was over for her?

That comes directly from the legend. King Arthur received Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake with the instruction that, when he died, it must be returned to the Lake from which it was obtained, or else his legend would be forgotten. That's why she told Bedeviere to do so, because she knew she was dying and so had to return the sword to fulfill her promise.

And what was the "villains" aim/story etc?

Kotomine just likes seeing people suffer (the Visual Novel explains it much better, especially in the Heaven's Feel route), and Gil is an extreme Darwinist who wants to use the Grail to kill virtually everyone on Earth, leaving only the strong to be ruled by him.

Did the villain (forgot his name) make gil drink from the grail so he would stay?

No, the Grail much was splashed on him accidentally in the last war. It's explained in Fate/Zero.

And most important, why did saber go back?

She didn't have a choice. The only way she could stay would be to use the Grail to do so, because without it Shirou doesn't have anywhere near enough prana to keep her in the world. Since the Grail had to be destroyed, there was no choice but for her to go back, and because Shirou and Saber's idealism meant that they were entirely focussed on destroying it, they never even tried to think of a way to allow her to remain afterwards.

Didnt she decide in the episode where lancer died that she would acept her past and move on?

And she did, which is what the ending was all about. She gave up on the idea of changing the past, and accepted her life and how it had ended.

I also read something about a story where they meet saber again since shes sleeping somewhere?

That's the Realta Nua "Last Episode", but it's rather dubious, and what happens isn't well explained. It's best to just ignore it, IMO.

Also if I want to read more, what should I get? Books, Visual Novels? How much more stuff is there? is there a Manga? And how are the novels? I tried the Higurashi novel but, although its good, its just too long for me and got boring. Are the FSN novels shorter?

There is a Manga, but it's not very good, and unless you want to actually buy it, only a small proportion is translated (and, even the purchaseable version isn't finished yet). If you want to read more, then you should most definitely get the Visual Novel, it covers the story in a lot more detail, and explains all the stuff that the anime just hinted at.

It is pretty long, though, although IMO it's definitely worth it, because there's simply no adaptation of it that comes even close to doing justice to the original VN (the anime is a poor-quality adaptation of what is usually seen as the worst route).

There is also a prequel story, called Fate/Zero (the first three (out of four) chapters of which are translated and available online) and a (sort-of) sequel visual novel called Fate/Hollow Ataraxia (which isn't fully translated yet), but I wouldn't recommend reading either of them (especially Hollow Ataraxia) without playing the VN first, because they won't make sense.

[Usami_Haru]

I just have a question I have played all of the F/SN VN two times and I still cant get what the difference between Mana and Prana is. I hope someone could fill me in.

@Y0shi

Also if I want to read more, what should I get? Books, Visual Novels? How much more stuff is there? is there a Manga? And how are the novels? I tried the Higurashi novel but, although its good, its just too long for me and got boring. Are the FSN novels shorter?

If you couldnt get trough the first higurashi novel then you wont have any luck with F/SN since its the longest VN EVER translated. (but it will be surpassed by umineko in winter when EP6 is translated) And this isnt a samll amount of text. I think Eien no Aselia wich is much shorter than F/SN has almost the same amount of text as the Lord of the Rings trilogy. And F/SN is a lot longer than Eien no Aselia it has more text than an average book.

[Cherry_Lover]

I just have a question I have played all of the F/SN VN two times and I still cant get what the difference between Mana and Prana is. I hope someone could fill me in.

Mana is more specific. Prana is just general magical energy, whereas Mana is magical energy that comes from the surroundings (as opposed to Od, which is the magical energy that comes from within the magus). Any large-scale spell (one that uses an incantation, for example) will generally use Mana, whereas simpler spells (like Rin's Gand) just use the Prana produced by the magus (Od).

If you couldnt get trough the first higurashi novel then you wont have any luck with F/SN since its the longest VN EVER translated.

Yeah, FSN is a long story. However, in reality, it's more like three shorter stories, since the three different routes have little in common other than the setting and the main characters. Anyway, IMO, it's worth playing it, because there is no adaptation of the VN that even comes close to it in terms of quality, and there's no other way to get the full story.

[y0shi]

Wow and one was supposed to get all this from the anime? :twitch:

Guess I'll really have to get the novel, the higurashi novel was probably exceptional boring because I knew what was going on, maybe its better here. I just wish I could just get it as a book, listening to the same songs for hours with the same 3 pictures moving in the bg while staring at the screen is exhausting :eyespin:

Though I read something about some animated vn being released?

[Cherry_Lover]

Wow and one was supposed to get all this from the anime? :twitch:

Not really. The anime only hinted at the relationship between Rin and Sakura, without having played the game it is easy to miss it. Similarly, a lot of the other stuff I pointed out is only really explained in detail in the other routes of the game (everything relating to Sakura is covered in HF, the stuff about Caster is in UBW), or is stuff I know from the legend of King Arthur (if I didn't know how King Arthur died in the myths, and that he had to return the sword to the lake, I wouldn't have understood the ending of Fate either, probably).

Guess I'll really have to get the novel, the higurashi novel was probably exceptional boring because I knew what was going on, maybe its better here.

Well, in that case, you may not like the Fate route too much, because the anime is mostly based off it. The other two routes, however, follow entirely different plots (HF, in particular, is barely covered in the anime).

I just wish I could just get it as a book, listening to the same songs for hours with the same 3 pictures moving in the bg while staring at the screen is exhausting :eyespin:

Actually, FSN isn't like that. For a start, the pictures are a lot more varied, and the soundtrack is, IMO, probably one of the best game soundtracks in existance (some of the songs are just awesome, especially since they generally fit the mood of the scene very well). I'm having this problem with Tsukihime (the predecessor to FSN, which was made on a much lower budget), because having played FSN I just can't get used to the sameness of the songs and the lower quality of the animation. Plus, there is a voice patch for FSN (it's in Japanese but, still, hearing the characters talking, and their tone of voice, does a lot to make it less monotonous, IMO).

Though I read something about some animated vn being released?

Not that I'm aware of. There's a movie of the UBW scenario (the second one) which has just been released (it's not out on DVD yet, though, so you can only see it if you go to Japan...), but I wouldn't recommend watching it if you haven't played the game first, because it compresses the whole plot into 90 minutes, and thus probably won't make much sense to someone who hasn't played the game (OTOH, if you have played the game, watching all the fight scenes etc. animated is likely to be awesome).

[Polar_Lord]

From Fate Hollow/Ataraxia, it would seem that Hrunting seems to have the same amount of power as Caladbolg with the additional power of homing, speed and distance. If this is the case, why would there be any reason for Archer to use Caladbolg?

[GDB]

Easier to project/trace, I would assume. If you don't need the homing feature, why spend the extra energy?

[Blade_Lord]

From Fate Hollow/Ataraxia, it would seem that Hrunting seems to have the same amount of power as Caladbolg with the additional power of homing, speed and distance. If this is the case, why would there be any reason for Archer to use Caladbolg?

Charging time. 40 seconds is like an eternity to an Archer. Hrunting is the best choice if he decides to go camping over agile opponent like Rider.

[Polar_Lord]

Do all magus possess a Mystic Code? If so, what would Shirou's be?

[Blade_Lord]

Not all magi, no. And Shirou doesn't really need one. Those noble phantasm he traced might, offensive that is, be more powerful in terms of offensive power.

[ZeBird0]

Anyone know if there's an accurate translation for the last ending part after you finish the whole game? The one with Shirou and Saber in the field.

[Polar_Lord]

What is it about modern weapons that make Servants immune to them?

I kinda don't think it's a matter of speed because Fate/Zero seems to state that a minigun would have hit Saber no matter how hard she dodged so does anyone know?

[Cherry_Lover]

Servants are magical entities, so only other magical entities can harm them, essentially (although the details aren't well explained, and it doesn't really make much sense).

[Polar_Lord]

Servants are magical entities, so only other magical entities can harm them, essentially (although the details aren't well explained, and it doesn't really make much sense).

When you say magical entities, do you mean magical beings or merely magical implements like weapons?

[Arbitres]

Magical entities like servants. A servant can go barehanded and might be able to harm another servant. Though the barehanded servant would be at a great disadvantage unless they had a forte in hand-to-hand combat.


Magical weaponry/arsenal can or might actually be the only way to kill a servant. There are other methods, but a servant being killed by another servant is probably the most frequent method used.

[Cherry_Lover]

When you say magical entities, do you mean magical beings or merely magical implements like weapons?

Both, I believe. Servants can harm other servants even if they use normal weapons (Rider hurts True Assassin by slamming him into a wall, for instance), but servants can also be harmed by magical weapons or attacks (such as Shirou's swords).

[Polar_Lord]

If the Einzbergs wanted the Grail so badly, why did they make their Master also the Grail vessel? Ilya can't exactly be a good Master when she's lost most of her human functions right?

[ninja_pintu]

Why did Archer lose to Berserker? I mean Gilgamesh was able to beat Berserker without much problem, so Archer should be able to do the same using UBW.

[Cherry_Lover]

If the Einzbergs wanted the Grail so badly, why did they make their Master also the Grail vessel? Ilya can't exactly be a good Master when she's lost most of her human functions right?

Because they were sick of repeatedly screwing up and getting betrayed, to the point that they simply wanted to win, even though making their master the grail vessel meant that they couldn't actually do anything even if she did win.

Why did Archer lose to Berserker? I mean Gilgamesh was able to beat Berserker without much problem, so Archer should be able to do the same using UBW.

Two reasons. Firstly, Gil's weapons are more powerful than Archer's, because Archer's traced weapons are a rank lower than the originals. So, Archer's sword-spam would mostly just bounce off Berserker, thanks to God Hand.

Secondly, and most importantly, Gil was able to beat Berserker because he attacked Ilya, forcing Berserker to stand in the way of the sword-spam rather than dodging it. Archer was simply unwilling to take the risk of harming Ilya, so he couldn't do that.

[GDB]

Two reasons. Firstly, Gil's weapons are more powerful than Archer's, because Archer's traced weapons are a rank lower than the originals. So, Archer's sword-spam would mostly just bounce off Berserker, thanks to God Hand.

Secondly, and most importantly, Gil was able to beat Berserker because he attacked Ilya, forcing Berserker to stand in the way of the sword-spam rather than dodging it. Archer was simply unwilling to take the risk of harming Ilya, so he couldn't do that.

Did Archer even use UBW against Berserker in the game? I thought it was left ambiguous as to what exactly happened there, other than him shocking the hell out of Ilya by doing so much damage to Berserker before dying. Of course, he used it in the anime, but that's not really a great indicator of anything. Granted, to do that much damage he most likely had to, but he may have just been a trickier bastard than anyone gave him credit for.

[Cherry_Lover]

Did Archer even use UBW against Berserker in the game? I thought it was left ambiguous as to what exactly happened there, other than him shocking the hell out of Ilya by doing so much damage to Berserker before dying. Of course, he used it in the anime, but that's not really a great indicator of anything. Granted, to do that much damage he most likely had to, but he may have just been a trickier bastard than anyone gave him credit for.

It's not actually stated if he did or not, but I think it's supposed to be implied that he didn't, not least because UBW isn't a lot of use against Berserker anyway (because most of the swords just bounce off).

[orangejuicetang]

Yeah, it's implied that he didn't use UBW, since there was a whole bit about how Berserker was impressed about Archer's swordmanship and how he mourned the fact that he missed the chance to match swords against such a worthy opponent because he was insane.

If Archer used UBW, it's not likely that Berserker would have such thoughts.

[Polar_Lord]

Couldn't Archer have activated UBW but not used sword spam, instead just using his Reality Marble as a way to get his swords quicker when Berserker inevitably destroyed them?

But yeah, that's just conjecture. I thought it said somewhere in Fate that he used various Noble Phantasms to defeat Berserker in that he just used a whole variety of Broken Phantasms?

On another note, couldn't Archer just trace Endiku and copy Gil's method?

[Cherry_Lover]

On another note, couldn't Archer just trace Endiku and copy Gil's method?

a) he may not be able to trace it (because it's not a sword), b) he may well not have seen it and c) Berserker might be able to dodge it without the worry about protecting Ilya.

[Polar_Lord]

a) he may not be able to trace it (because it's not a sword)

But doesn't Rho Aias, which is a shield, prove that Archer can trace NPs that aren't just swords?

[Polar_Lord]

If bullets and modern weapons don't affect Servants, why didn't Zero Lancer just use his body to block the bullets that were aimed at Kayneth instead of deflecting them all and risking a ricochet into his Master ?

[Cherry_Lover]

Force of habit?

I don't know. It's not like Nasu is exactly known for being consistent about these things....

[orangejuicetang]

Perhaps his body wasn't big enough to block all the bullets, and his lance movements only deflected the ones that would have gone around him anyway? I mean, it's not like Zero Lancer was huge like Zero Rider. And plus, it's likely that some bullets did hit Zero Lancer, and did absolutely nothing, since there was this line.

Lancer stared at Kiritsugu, who was mentally wavering, with a look as cold as ice. He shifted both spears into his right hand, emptying out his left hand to scoop up Kayneth’s body. Kiritsugu didn’t rashly attack this apparently defenceless move. He had just confirmed that bullets are useless to Servants.

[Arbitres]

This thread seems to be pretty active so let me just ask this...

For anyone that's watched/read/played Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, what are the similarities and differences between Fate/Stay Night and the other two? I'm planning on watching Fate/Night Stay and i want to know....

Moved from Final Thoughts & Impressions to here.

[Haak]

^ Dude, i was just about to do that. D=

Well I'm shit, I'm doing it anyway:

For anyone that's watched/read/played Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, what are the similarities and differences between Fate/Stay Night and the other two? I'm planning on watching Fate/Night Stay and i want to know....

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, they're set in the same multiverse, and written by the same writer, but in general they're entirely separate stories.

[Polar_Lord]

Which method of mana transfer is actually canonical? The way described in FSN or the method in Fate Realta Nua?

[orangejuicetang]

My guess? Both. There's probably more than one method of mana transfer.

[Cherry_Lover]

If any method is more canonical, though, then it is almost certainly the Deus Sex Machina method, since it's the original one, and the other version is only there to appease the censors.

Incidentally, I'm not overly convinced that what Rin does in RN UBW is canonical, because if that were an option in the original game, surely Rin would have taken it (rather than the exceptionally uncomfortable sex scene that she clearly wasn't emotionally ready for). And, most likely, the same applies to Fate (although probably not to HF, since I'm pretty sure Sakura would have taken the sexual option quite happily even if there was another alternative...).

[Nosauz]

^ Dude, i was just about to do that. D=

Well I'm shit, I'm doing it anyway:

For anyone that's watched/read/played Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai, what are the similarities and differences between Fate/Stay Night and the other two? I'm planning on watching Fate/Night Stay and i want to know....

same source writer, but studio deen got amalgamation fever when they produced the anime so you get basically a butchered version of the games first two story lines with a splash of the third. If you want to dive in to the fate/stay night genre, pick up the game and play that, it's more satisfying and you don't have terrible CG dragons. Also from story telling point their probably different as KnK is like a procedural, probably it's closer to tuskihime, and the characters are somewhat related, but overall it's more about questioning fate kinda stuff.

[Polar_Lord]

What exactly are Kotomine Kirei's abilities? As a combatant, does he fight like a Magus or more like an Executor?

[orangejuicetang]

Executor

(lol 10 character minimum)

[Polar_Lord]

How does an Executor fight?

[orangejuicetang]

Like a weaker version of ciel.

Assassin, chucking black keys, holding black keys in his hands like wolverine, striking from the shadow, using some weird form of bai quan (or whatever Miyako uses in Melty Blood) which is apparently enough for him to uproot entire full grown trees with just his feet, ect.

[Polar_Lord]

Does Kirei actually use thaumaturgy during battle? Or does he only use it for healing?

And what would be the difference between battle power and thaumaturgy power?

[Blade_Lord]

Thaumaturgy? Well sure they'll use that but expect a holy version of one.

Their elemental affinities would be this:

Ether

エーテル

The Fifth Imaginary Element according to the teachings of the Mage’s Association, it combines itself with any of the other four Elements in order to actualize the mysteries of Thaumaturgy. Although amorphous and incapable of materializing by its own power, it is what allows shapeless bodies to take a material form. Before the advent of Kurokiri Satsuki’s theory on the United Language, it was believed that the reason why mankind was capable of performing powerful mysteries during the Age of Gods was because the positioning of the others' celestial bodies in relation to Earth made the world rich with Ether. Purest, raw form of Grain, its domains are among the lines of composition, dissolution, modification, separation, unification, spiritual bodies, conceptual weapons and others. Known sub-elements: Life, Holy and Eastern Divinations.

[Polar_Lord]

Nasu: Rin really is a genius. Given time, she'll enter within the top 100 magi of the Association throughout its entire history. Shirou won't move out from being an magus apprentice, but as a spell-user, he'll be among one of the big specialists. Ultimately, he'll receive an evaluation on the same level as "Magus Killer" Emiya Kiritsugu had in his peak, maybe. If I were to put into simple numbers, Ciel: 100, Rin: 70-100, Shirou: 10 (under particular limited conditions, then 40).

(Note that the Association has been around since the Middle Ages and is also going to include Atlas and Sea of Estray; also note that this isn't battle power but thaumaturgy power.)


With regards to this quote by Nasu, how is it that Shirou can have a Top 10 ranking (on his best days) when Rin is only in the 70-100 range, considering the fact that Rin is a much more accomplished magus than Shirou?

[kaizer63]

With regards to this quote by Nasu, how is it that Shirou can have a Top 10 ranking (on his best days) when Rin is only in the 70-100 range, considering the fact that Rin is a much more accomplished magus than Shirou?

Simply because he's truly that ridiculous. Shirou will never be a good mage and he'll have very little variety in the thaumaturgy he can do, but his skill in tracing/gradation air is one-of-a-kind. There will, likely, never be another mage as skilled at that as Shirou while Rin, as good as she is, won't develop any particular skill to that extreme. As a whole, Rin is certainly the better mage, but she lacks any big spells (until she masters the 2nd anyways).

[Cherry_Lover]

Err, no, you've got it the wrong way around.

The 10 isn't a ranking, it's his power level. In other words, Nasu is saying that Shirou is 10 times weaker than Ciel/Rin, or (under certain circumstances) about half as strong as Rin.

What he's saying is that Shirou << Rin, except if it a situation which involves tracing, and then he's not too far behind her....

[Polar_Lord]

Ohh, thanks for that Cherry Lover. Now that comment about the numbers being thaumaturgy power and not battle power make a lot more sense.

I would guess that if it were battle power, Shirou would be significantly higher especially with regards to Servant combat?

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, probably. Although, it depends on the servant and Rin's jewel supply.

The reason Rin fails so badly at fighting servants is because she fights ones who are best suited to fighting against her, like Saber (because of her magic resistance) and Caster (because she's a better magus than Rin). Against a servant with no magic resistance, she would probably be pretty good.

[willyvereb]

I doubt. Almost every Servant has magic resistance and even if she succeeds breaking that(aka she uses up one of her jewels or more) first she needs to hit the target. Also there are few Servants with so ridiculously high durability that even if she succeeds hitting them it wouldn't do much damage(examples are Gilgamesh in his armor and Berserker...the later through couldn't handle the combined power of 3-4 jewels...the same may apply to Gil).

Generally the Servants are much more stronger than any mage(except the magicians...and even they do have difficulties dealing with them. Aoko for example can't beat Caster in a full-on battle)

Regarding Kotomine:
He's an Executor who specialized fighting mages. He possesses near inhuman physique with grand experience. As others stated he can chop trees in two without any assistance of magic. He can run at 70km/h for example...a monster in the appearance of human. Plus he learned a few magics shortly before the Grail War and has quite a skill too at exorcism. And yes, he uses Black Keys. 1kg heavy throwing swords which he could throw as easily as shurikens. It's no surprise that Rin would lose against him in 8 fights out of 10(stated by Nasu). To repeat myself: he's a monster.

[LostHanyou]

Can servants get hit by, say a bomb, if they aren't in spirit form?

I understand bullets have no effect, but stuff on a larger scale?

[RadiantBeam]

I honestly don't know if I should ask this question here or somewhere else, but since this seems to be the general Q&A thread: anyone know who the original composer for the visual novel was? I'm trying to label some music, but whenever I do a search the only name I find is Kenji Kawai for the anime.

[willyvereb]

Can servants get hit by, say a bomb, if they aren't in spirit form?

I understand bullets have no effect, but stuff on a larger scale?

Theoretically a Servant can survive even a Nuke without any problem. The reason is simple: They are caused by humans, being from lower plane of existence. For example a normal human with a regular knife has no chance of hurting a Servant. On the other hand give that knife to a Servant and he can cut any Servants arms of if the other don't resist.That's why throws and other secondary attacks made by Servants are effective despite being crushed to the ground hardly counts as a Noble Phantasm attack.

I honestly don't know if I should ask this question here or somewhere else, but since this seems to be the general Q&A thread: anyone know who the original composer for the visual novel was? I'm trying to label some music, but whenever I do a search the only name I find is Kenji Kawai for the anime.

There were more than one if I remember well. Most of them were composed by Kawai Kenji though.

[Cherry_Lover]

I doubt. Almost every Servant has magic resistance and even if she succeeds breaking that(aka she uses up one of her jewels or more) first she needs to hit the target.

No they don't. Saber has absolute magic resistance and Rider's is probably strong enough to tank a jewel blast. Lancer could maybe take one too, but I suspect not. Caster can deal with them using her own magic (although Rin still put up a better fight against her than Shirou (who she managed to mind-control) did) and Berserker just tanks it due to God Hand. The rest, however, she could put up a decent fight against (as good as Shirou can, anyway...). It's only Saber, Rider and Gil (plus Berserker, simply because she'll run out of jewels) who she is worse that Shirou against. I'm not saying she would be likely to beat the others, but she has more chance than Shirou does.

Generally the Servants are much more stronger than any mage(except the magicians...and even they do have difficulties dealing with them. Aoko for example can't beat Caster in a full-on battle)

Yes, but I wasn't claiming Rin would defeat them (although she could probably have one-shotted one if she'd kept her father's heirloom jewel for that rather than for healing Shirou's heart). I was simply comparing Shirou (who can't beat other servants, except for Gil, either) to Rin. Looking at it, it's about half-and-half. But, if you looked at a different war, where Berserker wasn't so absurdly strong, then Rin would have the advantage over most of the servants, except for the ones with exceptional Magic Resistance (and Gil, but he's a special case). So, in the fifth war, Shirou (if trained properly) has the advantage over Rin, but in any other war Rin would probably be better off than Shirou.

[willyvereb]

The problem is that she can't hit them. Sneak attacks most likely wouldn't work either. And compared to Herc-Berserker, Zero-Berserker actually was an even more tougher cookie. Previous Berserker was weaker?...sounds more like a joke. Although both Berserkers were an exceptions. The Mad Enchantment designed to give more power to the weaker Servants...it's just that it seems to charm the strong fighters somehow.:p

To add Rin wouldn't have even as much chance against Zero-Caster as he had against the FSN version. Endless army of lovecraftian monsters. Also he possessed magic techniques which made Illya's hardcore torture methods look like Disneyland in comparison.

Assassin and FSN-Rider are the only ones come to mind as someone Rin might have a shot against. Especially the former(if somehow they find him/her). FSN-Rider looked like the least prepared in battle. Also Rin may have a chance against Archer if he wouldn't out-Xanatos her.

[Cherry_Lover]

The problem is that she can't hit them.

She managed to hit Saber. True, Saber had no reason to dodge, but the spell was area-of-effect. I don't think she could have avoided it even if she'd wanted to.

Anyway, I never claimed she could win, I said she had more chance than Shirou does.

And compared to Herc-Berserker, Zero-Berserker actually was an even more tougher cookie. Previous Berserker was weaker?...sounds more like a joke.

I never said he was weaker, I said he was more susceptible to Rin's attacks. Heracles could just tank her jewels until she ran out, whereas she could in theory kill Zero Berserker, because he doesn't have God Hand.

To add Rin wouldn't have even as much chance against Zero-Caster as he had against the FSN version. Endless army of lovecraftian monsters. Also he possessed magic techniques which made Illya's hardcore torture methods look like Disneyland in comparison.

True, probably not. Although, she could likely take him if he didn't summon his monsters in time.

FSN-Rider looked like the least prepared in battle.

She also has rank B magic resistance. I don't think Rin's jewels could harm her.

[RadiantBeam]

There were more than one if I remember well. Most of them were composed by Kawai Kenji though.

Thanks a lot. ^^ I thought a majority of them might be composed by Kenji Kawai, but I wasn't certain, and I had mislabeling things or simply leaving them blank. So thank you very much!

[y0shi]

Noobing around again, the movie is out since january is it? So why cant I find a translation :/? Is there one?

[Cherry_Lover]

Noobing around again, the movie is out since january is it? So why cant I find a translation :/? Is there one?

Because it has only been released in the cinemas so far. It's pretty hard for someone to translate it without the original DVD....

[Spade616]

i just finished the fsn anime yesterday and i just cant get over the ending. i hated it.

anyway, could saber have stayed with shiro without the grail exploding and killing everyone? (if yes then i officially hate shiro for being to selfless) i kinda got confused with the drinking from the grail and wishing from the grail part

[GDB]

i just finished the fsn anime yesterday and i just cant get over the ending. i hated it.

anyway, could saber have stayed with shiro without the grail exploding and killing everyone? (if yes then i officially hate shiro for being to selfless) i kinda got confused with the drinking from the grail and wishing from the grail part

There was a way, but Shirou wouldn't be able to do it on his own. It requires a huge amount of mana/prana/whatever to keep a Servant without the grail, which he doesn't have.

[Cherry_Lover]

Even with the Grail he couldn't have kept her there, at least in her current form. Getting her to drink from the Grail would have corrupted her. As for keeping her there without it, there are ways. Shirou isn't a good enough magus to support a servant without the Grail, but Rin and her sister are, at least with a little 'help' from him. This is, in fact, what happens in the UBW Good end (with Saber contracting with Rin and Shirou providing her with prana) and in the HF True end (with Sakura keeping Rider).

However, Rin was out of commission at that point, and in any case Shirou and Saber were too busy planning how to win the war to think of methods of keeping her there. Plus, it would require Saber to contract with someone other than Shirou, which she probably wouldn't like.

[Spade616]

thanks for the replies guys cleared my confusion up a bit..

Getting her to drink from the Grail would have corrupted her.

what exactly do you mean by her getting corrupted?

cuz i was also thinking, if shiro had used up his command seal and let saber drink from the grail, then saber wouldnt have been able to destroy the grail since it requires a command seal and Ilya wouldve been killed by the grail.. am i right?

okay im gonna play UBW now just for the good ending.. i cant get over saber just dying like that after what shiro and her have been through.. :frustrated:

edit: btw, does the fate stay night game end well for saber and shiro? cuz if it doesnt then i wont bother playing it. im gonna play UBW instead.

[Endscape]

what exactly do you mean by her getting corrupted?

cuz i was also thinking, if shiro had used up his command seal and let saber drink from the grail, then saber wouldnt have been able to destroy the grail since it requires a command seal and Ilya wouldve been killed by the grail.. am i right?

okay im gonna play UBW now just for the good ending.. i cant get over saber just dying like that after what shiro and her have been through..

edit: btw, does the fate stay night game end well for saber and shiro? cuz if it doesnt then i wont bother playing it. im gonna play UBW instead.

Drinking from the Grail would have corrupted Saber since the contents of the grail are actually

Angra Mainyu, 'All the Evils of the World'.

Drinking would definitely turn her evil and insane.

All three routes can be considered an end of Fate/Stay Night.

UBW ends relatively well for Saber and Shirou

In UBW Shirou figures out how to use his Reality Marble, beats Gilgamesh, and ends up in a relationship with Rin, and in the Good End, Saber stays with him and Rin. In the True End, Saber dies but she basically feels fulfilled with her life.

In HF

Shirou, in the Normal End, dies as a result of having Archer's arm grafted to him and using Projection past his limits. In the True End, Illya brings his soul back, they get him a new puppet body, and he lives happily with Sakura and Rider. Shirou ends up killing Saber though since she got corrupted by the Shadow, aka Angra Mainyu being manifested unconsciously through Sakura's magic.

[Cherry_Lover]

cuz i was also thinking, if shiro had used up his command seal and let saber drink from the grail, then saber wouldnt have been able to destroy the grail since it requires a command seal and Ilya wouldve been killed by the grail.. am i right?

Yeah, I think so. Also, the Grail would likely have killed many people in the town (like it did in the previous war).

edit: btw, does the fate stay night game end well for saber and shiro? cuz if it doesnt then i wont bother playing it. im gonna play UBW instead.

You seem to be slightly mistaken here. The Fate/Stay Night game has three routes. The first one is the Shirou/Saber route, and is similar to the anime (with the same ending). The other two are as Endscape stated (note, however, that Shirou and Saber are just good friends in UBW, rather than being in a relationship). However, if you're going to play it, I would suggest that you play all three routes (note that you have[i] to play Fate before you can play HF), rather than coming into it with the assumption that you won't like HF because it doesn't centre around Saber. After I played the Fate route, I felt much the same as you do, but after playing HF I couldn't really care less about Saber, because I was [i]far more bothered about Sakura.

[Seitsuki]

For some reason I could never get to like Sakura. Instead of HF making me feel more sympathetic towards her, it portrayed her as to much of a victim for my liking. there's also all the stuff she does such as corrupting Saber/Berserker, making Shirou change his lifelng ideals just for her and potentially raping Rin for eternity. Her 'good end' is least deserved imo.

[Spade616]

Yeah, I think so. Also, the Grail would likely have killed many people in the town (like it did in the previous war).



You seem to be slightly mistaken here. The Fate/Stay Night game has three routes. The first one is the Shirou/Saber route, and is similar to the anime (with the same ending). The other two are as Endscape stated (note, however, that Shirou and Saber are just good friends in UBW, rather than being in a relationship). However, if you're going to play it, I would suggest that you play all three routes (note that you have[i] to play Fate before you can play HF), rather than coming into it with the assumption that you won't like HF because it doesn't centre around Saber. After I played the Fate route, I felt much the same as you do, but after playing HF I couldn't really care less about Saber, because I was [i]far more bothered about Sakura.

oh okay so the storyline just branches off at a certain point with different endings ie; fate, ubw, heavens feel..

i understand the anime a lot better now lol. thanks for clearing it up for me guys :) ima start playing the game now:D

@Endscape

so that mofo kirei was trying to trick shiro into using a command seal to make saber drink from the grail and turn her evil eh... :upset:

btw, i am so staying in this forum now.. i actually just joined to ask these questions but you guys were so helpful that i wanna stay. other anime forums i checked out werent very helpful as well

[Cherry_Lover]

For some reason I could never get to like Sakura. Instead of HF making me feel more sympathetic towards her, it portrayed her as to much of a victim for my liking. there's also all the stuff she does such as corrupting Saber/Berserker, making Shirou change his lifelng ideals just for her and potentially raping Rin for eternity. Her 'good end' is least deserved imo.

Lol, what?

Sakura is portrayed as a victim because she is a victim. It's not her fault that she was given up for adoption at the age of four to a guy who tortured and raped her for eleven years, and there is nothing that she could have done about it.

As for 'all the stuff she does', what stuff?

She never corrupted Saber/Berserker. She was not aware of what was going on until she consciously accepted the shadow, and at that point she was most definitely not sane, plus from that point she never actually hurt anyone (people who most definitely deserved it aside).

She never made Shirou change his ideals for her, either. In fact she encouraged him not to. She stood there and told him that now that he knew the truth he should just leave her there, and that she couldn't return to his house. It was his choice to sacrifice his ideals for her, not hers.

As for raping Rin, firstly that never actually happened except in a bad end (so if you hate her for that you should also hate Saber for murdering Shirou in a bad end and Ilya for torturing Shirou, turning him into a doll etc. etc., both of which were without the justification of being insane), secondly Rin's previous speech had blown away any last remnants of her sanity, so she can't really be considered responsible for her actions any more than any other person would be considered responsible for actions committed when suffering from temporary insanity and thirdly she was simply demonstrating to Rin what she herself had been through, so if you pity Rin for that, you should pity Sakura also, rather than hating her.

To me, after everything that she's suffered through, she is the most deserving of a good end. Her mental strength is extraordinary, and there is nothing more that she could have done to avoid the situation in HF, unless she had committed suicide prior to the whole thing beginning, and I think it's rather unfair to expect someone to kill themselves, especially when all they want is to have a normal life, like everyone else....

oh okay so the storyline just branches off at a certain point with different endings ie; fate, ubw, heavens feel..

Yes, although the branch point is very early in the game (the three routes split just after Saber's summoning), and you have to play them sequentially (the HF route won't be playable until you've finished Fate and UBW, because the game won't give you the right options).

so that mofo kirei was trying to trick shiro into using a command seal to make saber drink from the grail and turn her evil eh... :upset:

Kotomine is basically a professional troll. Pretty much everything he does is for the lulz or because he wants to see people suffer. That wasn't his original plan, but it would hurt Saber and Shirou, so it suited him just fine as an option.

In fact, his general plan is to have someone use the Grail, because he wants to see what someone pure-hearted making a wish on the corrupted Grail would do.

[eirei]

Hey guys, everyone who's fan of FSN must have known about Tsukihime or Kara no Kyoukai right? (since all from Typemoon)
After reading on typemoon.wikia about Shirou, Shiki, their abilities and the connection between typemoon series, I wonder:
Shirou's UBW is his own ability right from the beginning, not from Avalon or Projection, and found out in UBW route. What if Shirou got the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception like either Shiki's from the other two series? Because he was once almost dead like those two, those eyes can be obtained by having a near-death experience, and they are all Typemoon's characters. So this must be possible to happen

[gummybear]

I finally got a chance to watch f/sn, and let me say I am very confused of what is going on.... yeah I didn't play the game. so did saber killed her own son in the past? saber's army in the past called her king yet she is clearly a woman..... I got more questions but I am very mind f***ed by what the hell happened to her in the past....:uhoh:

[Spade616]

I finally got a chance to watch f/sn, and let me say I am very confused of what is going on.... yeah I didn't play the game. so did saber killed her own son in the past? saber's army in the past called her king yet she is clearly a woman..... I got more questions but I am very mind f***ed by what the hell happened to her in the past....:uhoh:

1. Saber is a king. She is actually Arturia Pendragon. link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saber_(Fate/stay_night)

2. She doesn't have a son. I can't quite remember that episode but I think that was one of her knights she killed or it was just a dream. Someone correct me if im wrong :p

:)

[eirei]

If anyone's confused about the anime, visit this link: typemoon.wikia.com since the anime only about... 20-30% of the whole series. The reason is it contains some from the other 2 routes
Also, if you visit the link above for more information about Shirou and the other series of typemoon, you can understand why I discuss about if Shirou has Mystic Eyes of Death Perception

[Endscape]

Hey guys, everyone who's fan of FSN must have known about Tsukihime or Kara no Kyoukai right? (since all from Typemoon)
After reading on typemoon.wikia about Shirou, Shiki, their abilities and the connection between typemoon series, I wonder:
Shirou's UBW is his own ability right from the beginning, not from Avalon or Projection, and found out in UBW route. What if Shirou got the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception like either Shiki's from the other two series? Because he was once almost dead like those two, those eyes can be obtained by having a near-death experience, and they are all Typemoon's characters. So this must be possible to happen

Yeah, Shirou did have die, like both Shikis, however it takes more than just dieing to get the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. You need to have an ability that allows you to comprehend death.

For Tohno Shiki, when he died, the ability of the Nanaya family, Jougan, litterally 'Pure Eyes' which allow him to see things that humans normally can't see, let him 'see' death, which is how he got the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.

For Ryougi Shiki, when she died, the connection to Akasha that she happened to have, allowed her to comprehend death and let her 'see' the death of others.

2. She doesn't have a son. I can't quite remember that episode but I think that was one of her knights she killed or it was just a dream. Someone correct me if im wrong

She does have a son, Mordred. (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Mordred) Well technically it's a homunculus made from Saber, a clone basically.

[Spade616]

She does have a son, Mordred. (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Mordred) Well technically it's a homunculus made from Saber, a clone basically.

yes i recall the scene now. thanks for clearing that up for me. and that link is awesome btw. so what happened was, Morgan sorta hypnotized Saber, got some genetic material off of her, and used it to form Mordred out of alchemy? okay. i was shocked at the initial thought of Saber possibly having beared a child lol :p

[Cherry_Lover]

so did saber killed her own son in the past? saber's army in the past called her king yet she is clearly a woman..... I got more questions but I am very mind f***ed by what the hell happened to her in the past....:uhoh:

Well, Saber is a genderbent King Arthur. The problem is that this causes certain issues with her backstory. In particular King Arthur, in most myths, was betrayed by his son (who he had refused to make his heir or even acknowledge), who rebelled and attempted to take the throne. They ended up killing each other in battle. So, obviously, Saber has to have a son. But, because the child has to be her child with Morgana, who is female, that left Nasu with a bit of a problem, which he got over by making Mordred a homonculus.

[gummybear]

Well, Saber is a genderbent King Arthur. The problem is that this causes certain issues with her backstory. In particular King Arthur, in most myths, was betrayed by his son (who he had refused to make his heir or even acknowledge), who rebelled and attempted to take the throne. They ended up killing each other in battle. So, obviously, Saber has to have a son. But, because the child has to be her child with Morgana, who is female, that left Nasu with a bit of a problem, which he got over by making Mordred a homonculus.

wow I am even more confused :uhoh: I read that it was a plot from her sister to have the kid, but then why would she let her sister do that in the first place? I understand that the real king Arthur "did" his sister from the real story.... but that's because he's a man, but saber is a woman and when a woman "love" a woman means they are a pair of lesbians, the last time I checked lesbians don't like d*cks..... it's just total mind f**k right here.

[eirei]

@Endscape: so you mean because 2 Shikis have some connection with Akasha so they can acquire those eyes, while Shirou's just a normal but special human with his Reality Marble and the ability to project anything in the world due to his fake wish and life (of Kiritsugu) is to abandon his own sake for everyone else?
Well, the things about Saber's homonculus Mordred is not really a problem, since that time (in the story) there's Merlin so this is not too hard to clear
Oh, does anyone know which Shirou Realta Nua secret ending is about? Many people say that's Shirou in Fate, but I think that's not Shirou from any route. I think it's Shirou, who about to become Archer as the circle, finally realize his true wish to be with Saber eternally in Avalon. Saber also waits for Shirou, who (I think) endlessly finds that wish

[Spade616]

wow I am even more confused :uhoh: I read that it was a plot from her sister to have the kid, but then why would she let her sister do that in the first place? I understand that the real king Arthur "did" his sister from the real story.... but that's because he's a man, but saber is a woman and when a woman "love" a woman means they are a pair of lesbians, the last time I checked lesbians don't like d*cks..... it's just total mind f**k right here.

someone correct me if im wrong but from what i read, Saber didn't LET her sister do it, she was under a spell. Morgana got some of her genetic material/egg cells/whatever, through alchemy made the homunculus Mordred without Saber's consent.

[Endscape]

@Endscape: so you mean because 2 Shikis have some connection with Akasha so they can acquire those eyes, while Shirou's just a normal but special human with his Reality Marble and the ability to project anything in the world due to his fake wish and life (of Kiritsugu) is to abandon his own sake for everyone else?
Well, the things about Saber's homonculus Mordred is not really a problem, since that time (in the story) there's Merlin so this is not too hard to clear
Oh, does anyone know which Shirou Realta Nua secret ending is about? Many people say that's Shirou in Fate, but I think that's not Shirou from any route. I think it's Shirou, who about to become Archer as the circle, finally realize his true wish to be with Saber eternally in Avalon. Saber also waits for Shirou, who (I think) endlessly finds that wish

Ryougi Shiki has a connection to Akasha, which is unusual, since while all humans are born with such a connection, it's usually severed at birth. Ryougi Shiki is an exception to that. Tohno Shiki has no connection (that we know of) to Akasha, it's just that he understood death, thanks to his Jougan.

And yeah, that's Shirou in a nutshell.

As for Realta Nua Last Episode, that's definitely Fate Shirou, since Last Episode is supposed to be a happy end for Saber. It was created because both Rin and Sakura had happy ends, so Nasu decided Saber needed one too.

As for what's the deal about it, this is my personal theory, but after the end of Fate Route, when Saber died, Merlin brought her soul to Avalon, which despite what some may say, can be said to exist in the Nasuverse as the dwelling place of Elementals (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures#Elemental), of which the Lady of the Lake is specifically mentioned to be. Anyway, Saber, after chatting with Merlin, waits 1500+ years for Shirou, who after living a life that is similar to, but not exactly the same as Archer, ends up in Avalon either because of Merlin or by accident, meets up with Saber, and spends eternity with her.

[Spade616]

Ryougi Shiki has a connection to Akasha, which is unusual, since while all humans are born with such a connection, it's usually severed at birth. Ryougi Shiki is an exception to that. Tohno Shiki has no connection (that we know of) to Akasha, it's just that he understood death, thanks to his Jougan.

And yeah, that's Shirou in a nutshell.

As for Realta Nua Last Episode, that's definitely Fate Shirou, since Last Episode is supposed to be a happy end for Saber. It was created because both Rin and Sakura had happy ends, so Nasu decided Saber needed one too.

As for what's the deal about it, this is my personal theory, but after the end of Fate Route, when Saber died, Merlin brought her soul to Avalon, which despite what some may say, can be said to exist in the Nasuverse as the dwelling place of Elementals (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures#Elemental), of which the Lady of the Lake is specifically mentioned to be. Anyway, Saber, after chatting with Merlin, waits 1500+ years for Shirou, who after living a life that is similar to, but not exactly the same as Archer, ends up in Avalon either because of Merlin or by accident, meets up with Saber, and spends eternity with her.

omg yeay1!!1!11!!! after reading your post, i quickly googled and found the image of saber welcoming shiro back. :D best news ive heard all week.

edit: btw, was it ever mentioned how "life" is in Avalon? like do they get to do normal stuff like- talk, have fun, play games, make love, etc..? cuz it would be lame if it was just like a silent all-white void where these spirits are gathered eh.. =p

[willyvereb]

@gummybear:

Apparently, Saber is the legendary King Arthur from the Arthurian Legend. Read Novels and other stories about that to know what really happened to her in the past. Fate/Stay Night gives it a little twist by making Arthur Arthuria, a woman. She hid her gender(probably with the help of Merlin's magic) and only a selected few knew the truth.

@Spade616:

Avalon is more like an endless green field and gardens. You know a classical fairy world/paradise thing. We don't know what they'll do because the scene eds with Saber welcoming Shirou.

[RadiantBeam]

someone correct me if im wrong but from what i read, Saber didn't LET her sister do it, she was under a spell. Morgana got some of her genetic material/egg cells/whatever, through alchemy made the homunculus Mordred without Saber's consent.

I was always under the impression that it was the result of Merlin giving Saber a gag penis as a joke and getting her drunk one night... either that or what you just said.

[Endscape]

I was always under the impression that it was the result of Merlin giving Saber a gag penis as a joke and getting her drunk one night... either that or what you just said.

Actually, you're right, Merlin did give Saber a fake penis and Morgan extracted sperm from that to make Mordred.

[Spade616]

Actually, you're right, Merlin did give Saber a fake penis and Morgan extracted sperm from that to make Mordred.

ewww :upset: tho it makes it more consistent with the legends

[eirei]

@Spade616: every endings of any story is the end for us readers, but it's a new beginning for the character. Shirou's and Saber's new life in Avalon is their own stories for themselves to continue. Of course we readers understand that continuation in our own ways ^_^

[Cherry_Lover]

@Spade616: every endings of any story is the end for us readers, but it's a new beginning for the character. Shirou's and Saber's new life in Avalon is their own stories for themselves to continue. Of course we readers understand that continuation in our own ways ^_^

Well, in all honesty, I don't see it as real at all. My opinion is that it's just a dream that Shirou's having much like the one that Sakura has at the end of the HF Normal epilogue, where she thinks she sees Shirou returning to her just before she dies.

The whole thing doesn't make sense in the context of how the Nasuverse works. There is no way for Shirou to get into Avalon (when he dies, his soul just disapates) and, for that matter, Saber shouldn't be there either, because when she dies she will go to the Throne of Heroes like all other heroic spirits. The whole thing is just fanservice, to placate Saber fans who are annoyed that Shirou and Saber could never be together as a couple.

[Endscape]

Well, in all honesty, I don't see it as real at all. My opinion is that it's just a dream that Shirou's having much like
Spoiler for HF ending:
the one that Sakura has at the end of the HF Normal epilogue, where she thinks she sees Shirou returning to her just before she dies.


The whole thing doesn't make sense in the context of how the Nasuverse works. There is no way for Shirou to get into Avalon (when he dies, his soul just disapates) and, for that matter, Saber shouldn't be there either, because when she dies she will go to the Throne of Heroes like all other heroic spirits. The whole thing is just fanservice, to placate Saber fans who are annoyed that Shirou and Saber could never be together as a couple.

Actually, if you think about it, it does make sense in the context of the Nasuverse, as I stated in my previous post. Souls normally dissipate, yes, but as Touko, Roa and the Third Magic proves, that can be circumvented. Merlin, being Merlin could do that.

[Endscape]

Well, in all honesty, I don't see it as real at all. My opinion is that it's just a dream that Shirou's having much like
Spoiler for HF ending:
the one that Sakura has at the end of the HF Normal epilogue, where she thinks she sees Shirou returning to her just before she dies.


The whole thing doesn't make sense in the context of how the Nasuverse works. There is no way for Shirou to get into Avalon (when he dies, his soul just disapates) and, for that matter, Saber shouldn't be there either, because when she dies she will go to the Throne of Heroes like all other heroic spirits. The whole thing is just fanservice, to placate Saber fans who are annoyed that Shirou and Saber could never be together as a couple.

Actually, if you think about it, it does make sense in the context of the Nasuverse, as I stated in my previous post. Souls normally dissipate, yes, but as Touko, Roa and the Third Magic proves, that can be circumvented. Merlin, being Merlin could do that.

[eirei]

@Cherry: after the end of Fate route, Saber can no longer be a Epic Spirit because: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_%28Fate/stay_night%29. Her wish to change the past when she made a pact with the World is gone. Because she gave it up, that pact no longer exist and she doesn't have to become a Epic Spirit after her death (if that wish isn't granted, how could she?). So she has no regret or something undone about her king life like the others Epic Spirit
About Shirou, http://www.animevice.com/shirou-emiya/18-16778/, in Fate route (as Endscape), he has the best chance to become a superhero, although it's uncertain whether he succeeds or ends up like Archer. This means with his great achievement, he totally cannot die like normal humans and can become a Epic Spirit (either like Archer or not)
About Shirou and Saber meeting in Avalon, like Realta Nua context, Saber doesn't want to become a Epic Spirit anymore and wait endlessly for Shirou, and Shirou go endlessly for the answer while in the cycle Shirou<->Archer ("fading away like a human, and repeat the same things oveer again like a machine")
Well, that's all I know to explain this

[BradiosForever]

Actually.

Shirou MUST become Archer in the fate route because of the events that Archer transcribes in the UBW route are errrily similar to that of Fate. UBW's Shirou must face Archer (Fate's Shioru) for Archer to understand the misunderstanding he made while pondering to kill himself. This is known as the "Shirou Cycle"

[kaizer63]

Actually.

Shirou MUST become Archer in the fate route because of the events that Archer transcribes in the UBW route are errrily similar to that of Fate. UBW's Shirou must face Archer (Fate's Shioru) for Archer to understand the misunderstanding he made while pondering to kill himself. This is known as the "Shirou Cycle"

Actually... not even Fate Shirou can become Archer because he doesn't screw up his arm the first time he tries projection. He can still go down the same path as Archer, Archer is not him. Also, the prevention of paradoxes means the same Archer as that universes Shirou will never be summoned.

[Cherry_Lover]

@Cherry: after the end of Fate route, Saber can no longer be a Epic Spirit because: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_%28Fate/stay_night%29. Her wish to change the past when she made a pact with the World is gone. Because she gave it up, that pact no longer exist and she doesn't have to become a Epic Spirit after her death (if that wish isn't granted, how could she?). So she has no regret or something undone about her king life like the others Epic Spirit

Err, no, you're getting confused. Granting her wish would have made her into a Counter Guardian, which is what Archer is. That would mean that she had to do as Archer did, and go around dealing with threats to humanity by killing everyone in the vicinity. Even without the pact, she still becomes a Heroic Spirit (like Lancer, Berserker etc. are) because she's a hero. The only difference is that being a Heroic Spirit comes with no responsibilities, whereas being a Counter Guardian means being at Alaya's beck and call to deal with problems that arise.

About Shirou, http://www.animevice.com/shirou-emiya/18-16778/, in Fate route (as Endscape), he has the best chance to become a superhero, although it's uncertain whether he succeeds or ends up like Archer. This means with his great achievement, he totally cannot die like normal humans and can become a Epic Spirit (either like Archer or not)

To become a Heroic Spirit, you have to be remembered and revered as one. Shirou cannot be, since his method of fighting is one that must be kept secret (since he uses a Reality Marble, which is forbidden magic, and so cannot be shown to either ordinary people or even other magi). Not only that, but it's stated to be pretty much impossible for a modern person to become a Heroic Spirit, because of the importance of guns etc. What Archer became was a Counter Guardian, which is different and most definitely not a good thing (unlike being an ordinary Heroic Spirit, which is a good(ish) thing).

Actually.

Shirou MUST become Archer in the fate route because of the events that Archer transcribes in the UBW route are errrily similar to that of Fate. UBW's Shirou must face Archer (Fate's Shioru) for Archer to understand the misunderstanding he made while pondering to kill himself. This is known as the "Shirou Cycle"

Where are you getting this from? Whilst it's likely that Archer's life resembles that of Fate Shirou to a certain extent, there's no reason to believe that it's the same. In particular, it is unlikely that Archer was able to 'save' Saber in his timeline. Nasu has stated that Archer is not Fate Shirou, although there is a (small) possibility for Shirou to become a Counter Guardian like Archer did post-Fate.

Plus, even if it is true, becoming a Counter Guardian is a horrible fate, as Archer proves, and therefore not one that would be celebrated if that is indeed what Last Eposiode is trying to imply.

[orangejuicetang]

Well, Cherry seemed to have answered those questions pretty well, so I'll just add some of my thoughts.

@Cherry: after the end of Fate route, Saber can no longer be a Epic Spirit because: http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_%28Fate/stay_night%29. Her wish to change the past when she made a pact with the World is gone. Because she gave it up, that pact no longer exist and she doesn't have to become a Epic Spirit after her death (if that wish isn't granted, how could she?). So she has no regret or something undone about her king life like the others Epic Spirit

Like Cherry said, contract=alaya=Counter Guardian. Saber's becoming a Heroic Spirit when she dies regardless. The only way to circumvent this is to, well, never die (that or rewrite history). Which would be 'Last Episode' and her original goal respectively. Although even if she succeeds in the latter, she would still become a Counter-Guardian.

About Shirou, http://www.animevice.com/shirou-emiya/18-16778/, in Fate route (as Endscape), he has the best chance to become a superhero, although it's uncertain whether he succeeds or ends up like Archer. This means with his great achievement, he totally cannot die like normal humans and can become a Epic Spirit (either like Archer or not)
About Shirou and Saber meeting in Avalon, like Realta Nua context, Saber doesn't want to become a Epic Spirit anymore and wait endlessly for Shirou, and Shirou go endlessly for the answer while in the cycle Shirou<->Archer ("fading away like a human, and repeat the same things oveer again like a machine")

Actually.

Shirou MUST become Archer in the fate route because of the events that Archer transcribes in the UBW route are errrily similar to that of Fate. UBW's Shirou must face Archer (Fate's Shioru) for Archer to understand the misunderstanding he made while pondering to kill himself. This is known as the "Shirou Cycle"

Let's see, if IIRC, it goes something like 'Blah blah blah Shirou from any routes doesn't become Archer, Archer's route is most similar (note similar, not same. For all we know, that could mean it's 5% more similar instead of 2% like the VN routes Shirou) to anime Shirou.'

More serious reasons, if Archer is summoned, it decreases the chances of Shirou becoming Archer by alot, due to Archer doing his best to make sure Shirou doesn't follow his path, there's no time loops/time paradoxes, because the Nasuverse functions on a multi-verse, and the Throne of Heroes where Heroic Spirits and Counter Guardians are held is stated to be out of the time-line and immune to time paradoxes. Archer was unable to 'save' Saber, Fate Shirou and Anime Shirou 'saved' Saber. ect.

[eirei]

Oh right, the pact Saber made is about Counter Guardian, sry I didn't read carefully ^_^
About Shirou, what I meant is that Fate Shirou can succeed with his goal but not like Archer did. Because if he's like Archer then he cannot be Shirou in Realta Nua ending
And about my theory that Shirou becomes Epic Spirit, that's because I think
1/ He get rid of what he has to in UBW, and the others didn't know he solve things like that since he didn't drag them into it
2/ He is admitted by thoses who has magic like Association, not normal people (with guns etc...)

[Cherry_Lover]

About Shirou, what I meant is that Fate Shirou can succeed with his goal but not like Archer did.

How?

Because if he's like Archer then he cannot be Shirou in Realta Nua ending

Yes, but I don't think Last Episode makes any sense anyway, so in my view it's just a dream, or similar, purely put there as fanservice for Saber fans.

And about my theory that Shirou becomes Epic Spirit, that's because I think
1/ He get rid of what he has to in UBW, and the others didn't know he solve things like that since he didn't drag them into it

What?

2/ He is admitted by thoses who has magic like Association, not normal people (with guns etc...)

But the Magic Association doesn't know him as a hero (if they did, they'd likely put him down for sealing since he uses a Reality Marble) and even if they did the Magic Association is too small a group to make someone elegible for being a Heroic Spirit.

[orangejuicetang]

It is impossible for people in the modern age to become Heroic Spirits, because the standard for 'saving/influencing the world' has been too reduced/watered down than when it was in ancient times. At best, they can make a contract and become a counter-guardian.

or the shortened version: People born in the modern era can't become True Heroic Spirits.

[BradiosForever]

It is impossible for people in the modern age to become Heroic Spirits, because the standard for 'saving/influencing the world' has been too reduced/watered down than when it was in ancient times. At best, they can make a contract and become a counter-guardian.

or the shortened version: People born in the modern era can't become True Heroic Spirits.

Hence Archer being called a faker

[eirei]

I forgot about this, does anyone know why Reality Marble is forbidden? There aren't many people who can realize one, are there?

[orangejuicetang]

Actually, Archer is called a faker because IIRC he specializes in Gradation Air which is basically projecting copies, or 'fakes'.

Reality Marbles are forbidden because it's basically extremely high-class magecraft, or projecting your internal world onto the external world.

As for people who can use it:
27 DAA's, Archer/Shirou, Satsuki, maybe Len and W.Len (it's described as similar to Tatari's RM, or at least W. Len's was, and people confused that power with Len's. Or something)

[Cherry_Lover]

Actually, I get the impression that they're forbidden mainly because none of the top brass of the Magic Association has one, and thus they're jealous of people who do (and, before you ask, yes the Magic Association is that petty and pathetic...).

[eirei]

Could it be there are people who used it for evil, like Chaos and Roa in Tsukihime, and there's hardly someone who can defeat them (since the Church and MA know everything like these events)

[orangejuicetang]

Extremely high-class magecraft, or basically magic close to the level of 'true magic' will always be given a sealing designation, in order to preserve the magus at the current form. Reality Marbles are apparently high-class magecraft close to the level of 'true magic'. The Association doesn't really care about whether people use magecraft for good or evil, they're only interested in two things: 1. Reaching Akasha, and 2. the concealment of magic from the outer world. There's plenty of people on the same general level as Chaos and Roa, such as members from the Burial Agency in the church, and quite a number of members of the Association (Aoko does seem to keep in somewhat contact with them, Zeltretch is part but he's usually in another dimesnion, and Bartheloi or however you spell her name who has taken up hunting DAA for sport and has already taken out several). Also, if you manage to evade the Association and bring you're magecraft up to the level of 'True Magic' they'll stop pursuing you, since apparently there's no longer any point.

tl;dr They like to seal high-level magecraft close to 'true magic', Reality Marbles are high-level magecraft close to 'true magic'.

[Cherry_Lover]

Extremely high-class magecraft, or basically magic close to the level of 'true magic' will always be given a sealing designation, in order to preserve the magus at the current form.

Not always. The Association is somewhat haphazard in how it enforces it.

tl;dr They like to seal high-level magecraft close to 'true magic', Reality Marbles are high-level magecraft close to 'true magic'.

No, Reality Marbles are explicitly banned. It's not merely an unspoken threat that anyone who uses one will be sealed to keep them in their 'current state', it's a explicit rule. Sealing people because it's 'close to true magic' doesn't make sense, since Reality Marbles don't change, at least in any significant manner. They're banned by the Association specifically as "forbidden magic", and whilst the reason is never made clear, it's certainly suggested that the fact that none of the top brass of the Association have one has something to do with it, because they hate the idea of people being better than them....

[willyvereb]

More like Reality Marbles are the expression of ones soul and the materialization of a certain aspect of their whole existence in a form of extraordinary ability. Call it reality warping with one strict certain rule. That's what Reality Marble really is. The Reality Marbles are natural ability for demons or other high spiritual beings and alike. The Magi copied that certain ability and thus Reality Marbles came to existence. And why the Mage's Association bans that? I can think of three reasons?
1.)Reality Marbles are always active. It's a high class magecraft which is always active and violates the rules of reality non-stop. There's no way to turn them off and it may end up in the reveal of magecraft. Especially, if it would become a custom for every mage to get a RM due to practical reasons.
2.) The very method to achieve the RM is to deeply and detailedly know oneself and accept it. The revelation is incredible and there's indeed a high chance for RM possessors to be weird or downright crazy. Just take the known RM possessors for example. Roa madly sought for perfection and turned against the whole world when he got a glimpse of it. Archer is twisted and downright suicidal. Nero Chaos is a sea of beasts instead a human with consciousness. Even if they are not crazy the RM takes control of their life. They end up being controlled by the governing idea of the RM. They can't be trusted as loyal or even rational people of the Mage's Association anymore.
3.)If we add that possessing a Reality Marble usually comes with great power you get the picture. They get too powerful to be controlled and thus the very idea of the Reality Marble is an enemy to the Association. It produces capable powerful and independent rebels who could make the higher ups in the Association to lose their status and power.

In short it's safe to assume that the Association isn't jealous of the Reality Marbles but downright dreads them. Just take Roa for the best example. One with great talents and a RM(and perhaps with portion of Arc's power.) could make the both the Church and the Association tremble. I bet the ban of RMs came after Roa's (first) defeat.

[eirei]

The 1st and 3rd reason isn't true with Archer, his RM like a NP can be materialized at will, and he can also control it as we saw in UBW (he shut it down when running out of mana after Shirou stopped him from defeating Saber at Kotomine Church)
So the 2nd may be the most correct one, I guess

[Cherry_Lover]

Actually, I think that the fundamental problem with a Reality Marble (from their viewpoint) is that anyone can have one, and it's something you're born with. So, if you're not born with the ability to create swords like Shirou is, you can never learn it. But, thanks to his Reality Marble, an extremely average magus with no heritage or crest like Shirou can outfight an exceptional magus from an established family like Rin. Also, because they're inate, Reality Marbles don't advance magecraft in any way, unlike the research that is done by normal magi. They're purely practical in nature, to be used to achieve something.

All those things put together mean that the Association doesn't like people to use such an ability, because they want magic to be something 'exclusive', where the best people are those with the most circuits and the best crest (see, for example, the attitude of magi in general to second children), and they want it to be a purely academic pursuit. Reality Marbles break all of those rules, with the added issue that they increase the power of their wielders massively, thus endangering the status quo of the Association (especially if an already-powerful and moderately sane magus were to get one, since they could likely use it to gain power). So, they try to make sure that no magus uses one by forbidding them from doing so, thus making it impossible to do the training that is required to enable them to activate (or even detect) any inate Reality Marble that they might have.

[orangejuicetang]

It's not anyone can have one, it's everybody has one, but it's practically impossible to bring it forth (well, apparently if people work at if for a couple of centuries, they can realize it, but most people don't live that long). In fact, Reality Marbles are technically in the realm of demons, as all demons are apparently naturally able to call forth Reality Marbles, and are apparently quite powerful, being just under the rank of Void Ryougi in terms of power/reality hax. But going back, yes, everybody has an internal world, but it's practically impossible to realize it externally onto the world, because well, it's the caster's 'internal' world. There's a reason why every single DAA has a RM, (well, practically everyone, I'm not too sure about some of them. I mean, forest of whatitsname, primate murder, ect. seem kind unlikely, but w/e). Satsuki has one, but that's because 1. she's a DA which may or may not make it easier (hard to tell) and 2. she has a stupid amount of magic circuits. Shirou is able to use his because of his whole 'reborn as a blank slate in the fire' thing.

Besides, the Association only cares about 2 things. 1. Reaching Akasha, and 2. the concealment of magic from the public. I'm not sure they care too much about power levels of maguses or whatnot. Plus, there's already quite a number of quite respected and high-ranking members within the association that obviously don't have that attitude you say they have (Waver and Aoko come to mind, maybe Zeltretch) that it seems unlikely.

[willyvereb]

Weaver is a mere teacher inside the Association with lowly skills in magic. Aoko and Zelretch on the other hand are respected but semi-outsiders. In short neither of those have any serious influence on the Association(Well, Zelretch may but he's generally only bothering them to ask for more students to train). Bartholomeroi from the "Tsukihime 2 prologue" is the only example so far. Also we have HF epilogue and Fate/Zero to judge the Association. Same with Touko's comments in KNK. They appear to be quite paranoiac and corrupt.

[orangejuicetang]

Oi oi, Waver's Mr. fucking Lord El-Melloi II. The guy who could apparently flip the entire Association on it's head if he gathered all his students together. The dude who took down the Holy Grail after several routes. And Fate/Zero indicates that the title of Lord El-Melloi is a pretty damn high title.

Zeltretch is a grand wizard marshal, which is extremely high ranking. (I think that was the same rank Bartholomeroi had in the prologue", and she's pretty much at the top)

And Aoko... I don't know where she's in the Association, considering that she just generally does whatever she wants.

[willyvereb]

No, Being Lord El-Melloi means nothing compared to the real high ranking members of the Association. Also Weaver has no real power to back it up...not to mention the number of his loyal students is...slim. He deactivated the Grail with clever legwork, not by the power of his title.

And Zelretch was the Wizard Marshal (prior to his Dead Apostole transformation). He may hold power but only if he would decide to take it. Also his status as vampire makes matters complicated. It's more like old Zel has his own faction both inside and outside the boundaries of the Association.

So far we know nothing sure about the Association but impactions say that they are extremely corrupt and have a grand superiority complex.;)

[Cherry_Lover]

And Aoko... I don't know where she's in the Association, considering that she just generally does whatever she wants.

She's not, from what I can tell. Like you say, she just does whatever the hell she likes, and they don't dare try to control her.

No, Being Lord El-Melloi means nothing compared to the real high ranking members of the Association.

I think that it's supposed to be a pretty high title, albeit not the most prestigious one.

Also Weaver has no real power to back it up...not to mention the number of his loyal students is...slim.

I believe that what tang is saying is right. If he wanted to, he has enough support from his old students to cause serious damage to the Association (although he probably couldn't bring it down outright).

Remember that his students include people like Rin, who specifically asked to be his student (and, being the prodigy that she is, she had a lot of offers), even though he basically told her that he wouldn't teach her very much (I believe).

He deactivated the Grail with clever legwork, not by the power of his title.

Actually, I'm 90% sure he was able to do it simply because Rin asked him to (or, at very least, didn't object to him doing so). Since it's her land, it's her decision, and once she's seen what the Grail is like she's obviously going to order it to be dismantled to prevent any further disasters like the one in the previous war.

[willyvereb]

Well, considering that Weaver was only teacher for less than 10 years it doesn't look like he would have many powerful students. I think it's more like he's relatively famous for his revolutionist ideas and Rin sympathized with that.

[orangejuicetang]

Lord El-Melloi II

ロード・エルメロイII世

Professor Charisma.
Master V.
Great Big Ben Londonster.
The man that female students named as the #1 man they'd like to get laid by, and so on.
A famous lecturer in the Clock Tower with many nicknames.
He doesn't have any problems in declaring he's an archmagus, but he's hopelessly average as a magus.
But, his skill as a lecturer dominates the rest, and is the best person at detecting the hidden talent of others and training it.
There are no magi that were his students that hadn't obtained the rank of Grand, and it's even been said that if he gathered his students together, the power chart in the Clock Tower would change.

...

Back when he was an apprentice, he'd been the very embodiment of the "narcissist that doesn't doubt he's a genius", but an incident some ten years ago had led him to change his attitude, and since then, the result of persistent effort for a spoiled brat led him to be called the professor.

As far as being a talent production, his works are regarded as the greatest masterpieces of their time, but El-Melloi II doesn't really seem to care about that, probably because he's more interested in being a successful magus himself.
So anyhow, as a lecturer, he has zip interest in his mega popularity.
...Rather, he's irritated by that fact and so has for several years has been walking inside the institute with a constantly cranky look to him. Or so they say.

Speaking of which, El-Melloi II isn't his real name but a name given to him by the current head of the Archibald house.

The custodian (sponsor) of Rin after she went to study in London. The condition being "I will not give you one ounce of instruction. Eh well, I will at least send letters of recommendation to the other departments"
He really hates Japan and Japanese, but his sole pleasures are Japanese games. A petit bourgeois that you really can't hate.
And so, while being internally excited, he tried to bring this up to the complete game dunce Rin,
"Maybe you might..... You know, you should be familiar with that town. That place right between Ueno and Asakusa...."
Only to be given an instant answer from Rin that not only did she have no interest in Akihabara, but she had no interest in even Nihonbashi.
And so he got pissed off instead.
"Fuck! You're the worst Japanese in the world."

The person that took down the Fuyuki Holy Grail war.

On another note, I am amused that he basically told Rin "Fuck! You're the worst Japanese in the world."

[willyvereb]

It still doesn't check with reality. I think that meant Weaver's career overall. Being teacher for 10 mere years wouldn't be enough to have a whole army of great students. I don't doubt his other qualities though.

[orangejuicetang]

It can't be, considering that it clearly mentions 'an incident ten years ago', which sets this at the present time. It's likely more of a quality thing than sheer quantity, considering that Rin is stated to be among the top 100 talents in the history of the Association and she's probably just one of his typical students.

Besides, we don't even know how the Assosciation trains the maguses. How many people does a teacher, especially an extremely popular one like Waver, teach a year? Is it through classes and lectures where numerous people attend? stuff like that.

[LostHanyou]

Hey guys, I haven't read Heaven's Feel in a while so I don't really remember this, but how did the vessel change Sakura? Like, she had free-will, but did the vessel corrupt her personality?

I actually have a lot of questions about the vessel, so any explanation of it would be awesome. Or directing me to a day in HF where they explain a lot about it.

[Cherry_Lover]

Hey guys, I haven't read Heaven's Feel in a while so I don't really remember this, but how did the vessel change Sakura? Like, she had free-will, but did the vessel corrupt her personality?

Well, I don't think it's ever explained exactly how Angra Mainyu affects Sakura, but it seems like what it does is to supress the 'good' parts of her personality (her kindness, her compassion, her love and so on) and magnify the negative aspects of her personality (such as her jealousy and resentment of Rin), and causes her to have more 'evil' thoughts. Also, being the vessel destroys her sanity, since she has the souls of six servants inside her, thus making her unable to determine what is right and wrong.

[LostHanyou]

Makes sense, but how come Ilya did not react the same way? Was she not involved with Angra Mainyu as Sakura was?

[Cherry_Lover]

Ilya is a Homonculus, who was designed from birth to become the Grail, and who was trained to be able to handle it. Sakura is a normal girl who had the Grail Worms implanted into her chest, and Zouken didn't know how to train her properly. So, Angra Mainyu can't corrupt Ilya in the same way as it did Sakura, and she has enough control over the gate to prevent the contents (the shadow) from leaking out. Being the Grail and storing all those souls does affect Ilya, but the difference is that Ilya can choose to turn aspects of her humanity off as she is forced to use more and more energy to maintain the spirits inside her, and she can control it, whereas Sakura lacks the ability and training to do that, and thus the Grail overwhelms her personality instead.

Incidentally, from what I can tell of Fate/Zero, Angra Mainyu did eventually corrupt Ilya's mother, Irisviel, and Kiritsugu was forced to destroy her. Presumably, Ilya couldn't be corrupted because she was a homonculus made especially for the task rather than being a normal human (poorly) modified to become a Grail (like Sakura was).

[Polar_Lord]

In HF, how was Rider able to match Archer in single combat when they fought in the school?

Also, could someone explain why it's stated that Archer is more powerful considering that Rider's stats are higher than his in most respects, even when she's under Shinji?

[Cherry_Lover]

In HF, how was Rider able to match Archer in single combat when they fought in the school?

Because at that point Sakura was her master rather than Shinji, which gives her a substantial stat boost. Plus, she actually cared there, because if she had lost then Archer was going to kill Sakura (or at least claimed he was).

Also, could someone explain why it's stated that Archer is more powerful considering that Rider's stats are higher than his in most respects, even when she's under Shinji?

Because Archer is a very clever fighter with a lot of skill, and has a lot of experiences, so he can take on opponents better than himself using his experience of previous battles to formulate good strategies for beating them. Also, Rider has much less prana than Archer does, because Sakura and/or Shinji can't supply her with much, whereas Rin is supplying Archer with plenty.

Plus, Archer isn't actually more powerful than Rider. In a straight fight, Rider would have a decent chance provided Archer couldn't pick the location. Certainly if Rider managed to use Bellophron on him he'd be screwed, and she begins to petrify him in HF.

[Polar_Lord]

she begins to petrify him in HF.

It's been a while since I played HF but what actually happens? I seem to remember that they just stopped fighting after Shirou was injured?


On another note, if Shirou's and by extension, Archer's element is swords, then how is it possible that they can trace other objects such as Rho Aias?

[Cherry_Lover]

It's been a while since I played HF but what actually happens? I seem to remember that they just stopped fighting after Shirou was injured?

Sakura lost control of her powers due to prana deprivation and lashed out, and when she saw that she'd hit Shirou, she 'attacked herself' and shut down her mind so that she wouldn't hit him again. Obivously, once she'd done that it served no purpose for Rider to keep fighting, because Sakura needed help, and attempting to kill Rin and Shirou would just make things worse.

On another note, if Shirou's and by extension, Archer's element is swords, then how is it possible that they can trace other objects such as Rho Aias?

Because the whole "your element is 'sword'" thing is a Red Herring. Rin doesn't know what Shirou's true ability is at that point.

[Moczo]

On another note, if Shirou's and by extension, Archer's element is swords, then how is it possible that they can trace other objects such as Rho Aias?


Because the whole "your element is 'sword'" thing is a Red Herring. Rin doesn't know what Shirou's true ability is at that point.

Though the description of Unlimited Blade Works in Archer's game profile does note that defensive equipment costs him considerably more energy to project than a sword or other weapon would. So there is a certain amount of sword 'affinity', it's just that there's more to it than that.

[GDB]

So, is there any lore behind Saber Lily, or did they think she was just a cool design and didn't care about her having any potential canon viability?

[Moczo]

To the best of my knowledge, the latter. They just thought that costume looked cute and/or cool, and decided to stick her in it.

[Flinch]

It's that the excuse for half the plot holes in F/SN?

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, probably. It is an eroge, after all....

[Shikimori Kazuki]

what happens when a master uses up all 3 command mantra's? from the manga for Fate Stay Night, we see Sakura uses up 3 command mantras, the last one used to save Shinji. Afterwards, Rider disappears, which brings up another question, did Rider disappear due to the command mantra's disappearance or due to the blow from Excalibur?

[Moczo]

what happens when a master uses up all 3 command mantra's? from the manga for Fate Stay Night, we see Sakura uses up 3 command mantras, the last one used to save Shinji. Afterwards, Rider disappears, which brings up another question, did Rider disappear due to the command mantra's disappearance or due to the blow from Excalibur?

It never happens on-screen, but as I recall using up all three means they lose all control of their Servant, meaning if their Servant doesn't like them they're basically dead meat. It's been awhile, but I believe that's what happened to Caster's summoner; she tricked him into thinking she was loyal, he used up his command seals on frivolous commands, and she murdered him as soon as they were all used up.

As for Manga!Rider, she disappeared because she got Excalibur'd. The command seal's use was what allowed her to survive long enough to save Shinji, but it only gave her a little extra time. Once the seal command was complete the power boost faded, her wounds caught up to her, and she died.

[GDB]

Well, we know that they lose their connection to their Master, so they can only stay around for as long as their current mana supply will allow. Caster explains this at some point somewhere.

[Cherry_Lover]

It never happens on-screen, but as I recall using up all three means they lose all control of their Servant, meaning if their Servant doesn't like them they're basically dead meat.

It happens in the game, actually. In HF, Sakura uses her third command spell to order Rider to protect Shirou. And, whilst Rider would never kill Sakura (she cares for her too much), she does end up fighting against her, which likely couldn't have happened if Sakura had had a command spell remaining.

It's been awhile, but I believe that's what happened to Caster's summoner; she tricked him into thinking she was loyal, he used up his command seals on frivolous commands, and she murdered him as soon as they were all used up.

I believe that's correct, yes. It's probably a spoiler, though....

Well, we know that they lose their connection to their Master, so they can only stay around for as long as their current mana supply will allow. Caster explains this at some point somewhere.

I'm pretty sure that's not true, actually. Rider is just fine lasting for over three days in HF, and Sakura at that point hasn't even really been giving her all that much mana, plus she even manages to use Bellophron in that time. At very least they could just re-make the contract, since Sakura does that with Rider post-HF.

As for Rider surviving in the manga, it's stupid. She shouldn't be able to survive an Excaliblast, even with a command spell. The manga writers pulled that out of their asses to allow Sakura to save Shinji whilst avoiding the problem that they would create by having Rider survive.

[GDB]

I'm pretty sure that's not true, actually.


If they have no other mana intake, and their contract with their master is gone, then they'd obviously follow the same rules as if their master had been killed. Those rules are stated by Rin and demonstrated a few times by various servants.

[Cherry_Lover]

If they have no other mana intake, and their contract with their master is gone, then they'd obviously follow the same rules as if their master had been killed. Those rules are stated by Rin and demonstrated a few times by various servants.

Hence why I'm pretty sure that using all three command spells doesn't end the contract. Otherwise, how did Rider remain for over three days (and, then, re-contracted with Sakura afterwards, despite there being no Grail)?

[Moczo]

It happens in the game, actually. In HF, Sakura uses her third command spell to order Rider to protect Shirou. And, whilst Rider would never kill Sakura (she cares for her too much), she does end up fighting against her, which likely couldn't have happened if Sakura had had a command spell remaining.


Oh, yeah, I forgot all about that. Well, between that and Caster's story, that pretty well confirms it: once the three command mantras are gone, the contract still exists, but the Servant doesn't actually have to obey anymore. They're free to do whatever they want, and if the Master has been mistreating them, well...

[Cherry_Lover]

Oh, yeah, I forgot all about that. Well, between that and Caster's story, that pretty well confirms it: once the three command mantras are gone, the contract still exists, but the Servant doesn't actually have to obey anymore. They're free to do whatever they want, and if the Master has been mistreating them, well...

Well, yeah, I wasn't denying that. It's clear that, once the command spells are gone, the servant is no longer forced to obey the master any more. However, the contract itself still seems to exist. It seems to be breakable, though, since Saber seems to break her contract with Shirou in the first bad end (or, rather, vice-versa). Having said that, that end is further proof that the contract remains after the command spells are gone, since Shirou needs to keep the last command spell in order to order Saber to break the contract with him, implying that she wouldn't do it otherwise.

[Polar_Lord]

How does God Hand actually work? Does it require that Berserker regenerate before he loses another life?

Otherwise, couldn't someone just stab him in the heart once and then just keep killing him in different ways so he doesn't have time to respond/regenerate?

[Cherry_Lover]

How does God Hand actually work?

According to however Nasu wants it to work at that particular moment in time, mainly....

Does it require that Berserker regenerate before he loses another life?

No, it's quite possible for him to lose multiple lives at once.

Otherwise, couldn't someone just stab him in the heart once and then just keep killing him in different ways so he doesn't have time to respond/regenerate?

Yes. See Saber/Shirou using Caliburn to take seven lives in Fate/the anime, and Shirou in HF when he killed Dark Berserker with Nine Lives Bladeworks, plus Dark Saber, who took several of Berserker's lives before the shadow absorbed him. It is quite possible to kill Berserker more than one time with a single hit, and both Ea and (probably) Excalibur could likely kill him twelve times with one hit, were they to be used.

[LostHanyou]

I refuse to believe God Hand works like that and Caliburn was either just a stupid plot device or had an ability which overrode God Hand. It would make sense if it were the latter.

I've always been under the impression that Dark Berserker didn't have God Hand, so Shirou really only killed him once. It also never says how many lives Dark Saber takes away from regular Berserker. Actually it seems like he was only killed once before being consumed, he was ripping apart his body and hadn't died yet and was then hit by what seemed like Saber's Excalibur before falling. Since he does have to regenerate, the corruption probably just finished him off completely.

[Cherry_Lover]

I refuse to believe God Hand works like that and Caliburn was either just a stupid plot device or had an ability which overrode God Hand. It would make sense if it were the latter.

The problem is that that is explicitly not true. Why would Caliburn have an "ability to override God Hand", unless you're basically making God Hand useless.

I've always been under the impression that Dark Berserker didn't have God Hand, so Shirou really only killed him once.

The game certainly implies otherwise. For a start, if that were true, then either the first eight slashes were pointless (since they did nothing), or the ninth was unnecessary. Plus, Shirou practically cut him into 16 pieces. Are you claiming he survived that?

I have the feeling that I may have had this argument with you before, recently. Are you on BL too?

It also never says how many lives Dark Saber takes away from regular Berserker. Actually it seems like he was only killed once before being consumed, he was ripping apart his body and hadn't died yet and was then hit by what seemed like Saber's Excalibur before falling.

Well, he had nine lives left when Shirou fought him, and I believe that it's stated that Dark Saber took three with a weakened Excaliblast.

[LostHanyou]

The problem is that that is explicitly not true. Why would Caliburn have an "ability to override God Hand", unless you're basically making God Hand useless.

It doesn't make sense for a Noble Phantasm of lower rank than Excalibur to take out so many of Berserker's lives. Considering Caladbolg hardly even scratched Berserker (even if he blocked it) the difference between 7 lives and no damage at all is ridiculous.
Now, if Caliburn had an effect of something along the lines of "Any defensive Noble Phantasm B rank or lower is negated" then it would make sense. But that's just speculation, as it's more likely there's no reason Caliburn was that powerful other than Nasu wanted to kill off Berserker.


The game certainly implies otherwise. For a start, if that were true, then either the first eight slashes were pointless (since they did nothing), or the ninth was unnecessary.


Berserker has constantly proven that one "fatal blow" isn't fatal for him. I'm inclined to believe it really would take all 9 slashes just to finish off one of his lives.
His slashes were cutting into vital areas, not cutting him into pieces. In fact it goes into detail which body parts are hit, and none of them would be fatal for him.
If you remember, Dark Berserker looks at Ilya before he falls, which clearly wouldn't be possible if he were cut to pieces.

I have the feeling that I may have had this argument with you before, recently. Are you on BL too?

I don't have an account on BL so that's a no.


Well, he had nine lives left when Shirou fought him, and I believe that it's stated that Dark Saber took three with a weakened Excaliblast.
Nasu never states how many lives Berserker had taken away from him, unless I missed something huge in which case I'd concede that you're right.

[Cherry_Lover]

Now, if Caliburn had an effect of something along the lines of "Any defensive Noble Phantasm B rank or lower is negated" then it would make sense.

Except that it doesn't. At least, it's not listed to, and Nasu would say that it did if that were the case.

But that's just speculation, as it's more likely there's no reason Caliburn was that powerful other than Nasu wanted to kill off Berserker.

Yes, which makes perfect sense if it is possible to take more than one life with a single shot. If it's not, then it's nonsensical and Nasu would know that it was. Why not just say "well, it's possible to take more than one life with a single hit" and bypass the issues?

Berserker has constantly proven that one "fatal blow" isn't fatal for him.

Yes, because he has God Hand....

I'm inclined to believe it really would take all 9 slashes just to finish off one of his lives.

Oh, come on. Let's be serious here. Even if it would, the stab to the heart would kill him outright. Why did he need the first eight slashes?

His slashes were cutting into vital areas, not cutting him into pieces. In fact it goes into detail which body parts are hit, and none of them would be fatal for him.

Not directly, but he doesn't just smash Berserker's testicles for six and then stop. He cuts up further.

If you remember, Dark Berserker looks at Ilya before he falls, which clearly wouldn't be possible if he were cut to pieces.

Which, if anything, is evidence for God Hand, since once he lost a life he would heal....

I don't have an account on BL so that's a no.

Ah, OK. I didn't just think there would be another person with such an absurd viewpoint on God Hand....

Nasu never states how many lives Berserker had taken away from him, unless I missed something huge in which case I'd concede that you're right.

I can't be sure, but I think that Dark Saber says something about it at some point, or maybe Sakura does.

[LostHanyou]

Except that it doesn't. At least, it's not listed to, and Nasu would say that it did if that were the case.



Yes, which makes perfect sense if it is possible to take more than one life with a single shot. If it's not, then it's nonsensical and Nasu would know that it was. Why not just say "well, it's possible to take more than one life with a single hit" and bypass the issues?
Just because Caliburn can do it because of a dumb plot move doesn't really mean it can happen with any other stronger noble phantasm. It didn't happen later on, just that one time. You said yourself God Hand works however Nasu wants it to work at a specific time, and a NP taking out multiple lives was how it worked once.
Yes, Caliburn certainly did take more than one life out of Berserker, but that's not consistent, so it's rather dumb to assume stronger Noble Phantasm's should take out so many of Berserker's lives. Caladbolg didn't, Dark Saber's Excalibur didn't. Caliburn did, because it was convenient for the plot and doesn't necessarily represent how God Hand works all the time. That's why I theorized Caliburn had some kind of effect which would override God Hand, but as you said Nasu never said that.


Yes, because he has God Hand....

This is outright wrong. He doesn't stay alive because of God Hand, he stays alive because of battle continuation. God hand does not state Berserker can withstand fatal hits.


Oh, come on. Let's be serious here. Even if it would, the stab to the heart would kill him outright. Why did he need the first eight slashes?

Do you really think servants are instantly killed once pierced in the heart, let alone a servant with battle continuation?



Not directly, but he doesn't just smash Berserker's testicles for six and then stop. He cuts up further.
I don't really get your point. He slashes his testicles and then keeps going to another vital point. Does that not make sense? There's 8 consecutive slashes at different vital areas, not 10 at each vital area.




Which, if anything, is evidence for God Hand, since once he lost a life he would heal....
Again, battle continuation. I'm going under the assumption hitting Berserker in the testicles is to cripple him, and doesn't kill him. I mean, he's a giant, I don't see how it doesn't make sense to hit weak points to cripple him and then finish him off.

[Cherry_Lover]

Just because Caliburn can do it because of a dumb plot move doesn't really mean it can happen with any other stronger noble phantasm.

Or, alternately, Nasu has a perfectly valid explanation for why it could happen which you refuse to believe because you don't want it to be true.

It didn't happen later on, just that one time.

Shirou's Nine Lives Bladeworks and Dark Saber in HF both took multiple lives, or at least I believe that they did. And in UBW there wasn't a chance for it to happen, so that doesn't count either.

You said yourself God Hand works however Nasu wants it to work at a specific time, and a NP taking out multiple lives was how it worked once.

No, it happened more than once. Certainly, there is no situation where it should have happened and didn't. Saber never uses Excalibur on him properly (although I believe that in one of the bad ends she may have taken several lives with a weakened version) and no other weapon which could plausibly take more than one life was ever used on him in a situation where it can be shown not to have.

Yes, Caliburn certainly did take more than one life out of Berserker, but that's not consistent, so it's rather dumb to assume stronger Noble Phantasm's should take out so many of Berserker's lives.

What do you mean it's "not consistent". As far as I am concerned, it is perfectly consistent. An NP or attack can take more than one life at a time. Possibly only if it hits in more than one place at once.

Caladbolg didn't

Caldaborg never even took one.

Dark Saber's Excalibur didn't.

Yes, it did.

Caliburn did, because it was convenient for the plot and doesn't necessarily represent how God Hand works all the time.

Perhaps not, but all the evidence says that it does.

That's why I theorized Caliburn had some kind of effect which would override God Hand, but as you said Nasu never said that.

Well, you're making it up. A far more likely possibility is that it is simply possible to take more than one life at once.

This is outright wrong. He doesn't stay alive because of God Hand, he stays alive because of battle continuation.

Battle continuation doesn't let you survive fatal hits, it just lets you ignore non-fatal ones.

God hand does not state Berserker can withstand fatal hits.

Yes it does. It says that he can withstand 12 of them....

Do you really think servants are instantly killed once pierced in the heart, let alone a servant with battle continuation?

He would die just as quickly without the other eight slashes, though. A heart wound is always fatal, even if it's not instantly fatal.

I don't really get your point. He slashes his testicles and then keeps going to another vital point.

He doesn't "slash his testicles". He whacks them with a fucking great big axe-sword and then continues slashing upwards, cutting through several vital organs. Look at the CGs.

There's 8 consecutive slashes at different vital areas, not 10 at each vital area.

Err, what?

Again, battle continuation. I'm going under the assumption hitting Berserker in the testicles is to cripple him, and doesn't kill him. I mean, he's a giant, I don't see how it doesn't make sense to hit weak points to cripple him and then finish him off.

Because it doesn't "cripple" him. Look at the damn game text. Berserker just shrugs the attacks off and keeps on going. Unless he needed to use Nine Lives Bladeworks to take > 1 life off Berserker, it served no purpose. It didn't slow him down and it didn't assist in killing him (because a stab to the heart would do that anyway).

Anyway, answer this for me. If Excalibur can only take one life, then why did Nasu, when asked who would win in a fight between Saber (at full power) and Berserker, not immediately say "Saber doesn't have a chance, because Excalibur can only kill him once"? For that matter, how is anyone other than Gil (or Archer with broken phantasms) supposed to kill him. According to your logic, not only is Berserker damn hard to beat, he's impossible to beat.

You have no evidence whatsoever for your viewpoint, and if God Hand was indeed gone when Shirou fought Dark Berserker, Nasu would have said so. Every doujin and fanwork that I've seen assumes that he still had it, which means that Nasu has clearly never said that he doesn't, and given that him still having it is the logical assumption to make, that means that it's highly likely that he still does.

If I had the time, I'd go through the game and prove it to you, but I don't.

[Moczo]

Er... just to bring this up.

Dark Berserker, in addition to having no eyes and whatnot... when he first comes on-screen, Shirou mentions that the wounds he took fighting Saber Alter haven't regenerated. So... that does sort of imply that Godhand isn't working properly following his corruption.

[LostHanyou]

No, it happened more than once. Certainly, there is no situation where it should have happened and didn't. Saber never uses Excalibur on him properly (although I believe that in one of the bad ends she may have taken several lives with a weakened version) and no other weapon which could plausibly take more than one life was ever used on him in a situation where it can be shown not to have.
In the bad end you are referring to he doesn't even lose one life to Excalibur. Ilya states that if it were at full power, perhaps Berserker would be able to die.



Caldaborg never even took one.
Yeah, it didn't, even though it was A rank which is about as strong as Caliburn.


Battle continuation doesn't let you survive fatal hits, it just lets you ignore non-fatal ones.


Yes it does. It says that he can withstand 12 of them....



He would die just as quickly without the other eight slashes, though. A heart wound is always fatal, even if it's not instantly fatal.
... If it's fatal, he should die and a life would be taken away. Then he'd regenerate.
In UBW during his last life he continued to live through fatal hits because of battle continuation. His God Hand had already worn out. God Hand lets him regenerate, it doesn't keep him from 'dying' if he receives a fatal blow.

So, Shirou's going to stab his heart and then the still alive Berserker is going to stand there and die slowly?



Because it doesn't "cripple" him. Look at the damn game text. Berserker just shrugs the attacks off and keeps on going. Unless he needed to use Nine Lives Bladeworks to take > 1 life off Berserker, it served no purpose. It didn't slow him down and it didn't assist in killing him (because a stab to the heart would do that anyway).
Let's assume you're right and it takes out 9 of Berserker's lives. He loses 9 lives because he is constantly killed before he can regenerate, right? That is different from an Excalibur or Caliburn blast taking out multiple lives at once. If that were the case, that would be consistent, since Berserker has constantly shown he's vulnerable right after he loses a life.



Anyway, answer this for me. If Excalibur can only take one life, then why did Nasu, when asked who would win in a fight between Saber (at full power) and Berserker, not immediately say "Saber doesn't have a chance, because Excalibur can only kill him once"? For that matter, how is anyone other than Gil (or Archer with broken phantasms) supposed to kill him. According to your logic, not only is Berserker damn hard to beat, he's impossible to beat.

You have no evidence whatsoever for your viewpoint, and if God Hand was indeed gone when Shirou fought Dark Berserker, Nasu would have said so. Every doujin and fanwork that I've seen assumes that he still had it, which means that Nasu has clearly never said that he doesn't, and given that him still having it is the logical assumption to make, that means that it's highly likely that he still does.

If I had the time, I'd go through the game and prove it to you, but I don't.
I'm not arguing that it's impossible to take out more than one life with an NP, but that you can't immediately say that because Caliburn took 7 lives, that a stronger NP could. Clearly, if Caliburn can take more than one life, other NP's can too, but the amount he would lose is not consistent. How strong God Hand is and what it can resist seems to change based on what is convenient.
Now, do I think Excalibur can take out 12 of Berserker's lives? Not unless it was a plot device. The only reason you would assume that it could is because Caliburn took out 7. Using that same logic, Caladbolg and weakened Excalibur did nothing. Does that seem consistent to you?

And yes, it does imply that God Hand isn't active, but I don't remember where I read that as I don't have the VN available.

[Cherry_Lover]

Er... just to bring this up.

Dark Berserker, in addition to having no eyes and whatnot... when he first comes on-screen, Shirou mentions that the wounds he took fighting Saber Alter haven't regenerated. So... that does sort of imply that Godhand isn't working properly following his corruption.

Well, it's not clear, but I think that it is pretty clear that he doesn't only have one life. There's no way that Shirou would need Nine Lives Bladeworks followed by a stab in the heart to take him down just once.

In the bad end you are referring to he doesn't even lose one life to Excalibur. Ilya states that if it were at full power, perhaps Berserker would be able to die.

I'm pretty sure that she means "die completely", actually. She was saying it in a "well, if it had been full power, then you might have been released from your torment, Berserker" kind of way, and that doesn't make sense unless it means losing all twelve lives, not only one.

Also, if she's talking about losing only one life, then there's no "perhaps" about it. A full-power Excaliblast would definitely take at least one life. So, the way that she said "perhaps" implies that she meant "maybe an Excaliblast could take all of the remaining lives", which would imply that you can indeed take >1 life with a single hit.

I'm not saying, BTW, that an Excaliblast can definitely take 12 lives, only that it could most likely take more than one.

Yeah, it didn't, even though it was A rank which is about as strong as Caliburn.

And?

... If it's fatal, he should die and a life would be taken away. Then he'd regenerate.

Yes, but not instantly. If you look at HF, the strikes all happened within a fraction of a second. There wasn't enough time for him to die in that way.

In UBW during his last life he continued to live through fatal hits because of battle continuation.

Where do you get this from? He kept going for a while, yes, but he didn't "continue to live". Also, I'm not sure it's ever made clear at what point he loses his final life.

God Hand lets him regenerate, it doesn't keep him from 'dying' if he receives a fatal blow.

It depends what you mean by "die". If he gets 'killed', he doesn't fall down and then get back up again with a new life, he just loses a life and then keeps on going. I was using "die" to mean the final death, when he runs out of lives entirely.

So, Shirou's going to stab his heart and then the still alive Berserker is going to stand there and die slowly?

No, but that applies either way. The original eight slashes didn't slow him down at all. The only reason Berserker didn't kill Shirou was because he actually stopped himself, to protect Ilya. Battle Continuation means that non-fatal wounds do nothing. The only way to stop the guy is to kill him outright, and a stab to the heart would do that with or without the other eight slashes. Yes, he can keep going for a bit even without the heart but, again, that's true with or without the slashes.

Let's assume you're right and it takes out 9 of Berserker's lives. He loses 9 lives because he is constantly killed before he can regenerate, right? That is different from an Excalibur or Caliburn blast taking out multiple lives at once. If that were the case, that would be consistent, since Berserker has constantly shown he's vulnerable right after he loses a life.

Well, not really, because an Excalibur/Caliburn blast could do the same thing. It's an AoE attack, so it can hit more than one vital region at once, thereby taking more than one life at once, just like Shirou did in HF. Something like Gae Bolg (the non-thrown version) could only take one life, though, because it hits in only one place at once.

I'm not arguing that it's impossible to take out more than one life with an NP, but that you can't immediately say that because Caliburn took 7 lives, that a stronger NP could.

Not necessarily, no, but there's no good reason to believe that, if Caliburn could take seven, an anti-army/anti-fortress NP of greater power couldn't take more.

Clearly, if Caliburn can take more than one life, other NP's can too, but the amount he would lose is not consistent.

It seems pretty consistent to me.

How strong God Hand is and what it can resist seems to change based on what is convenient.

Well, yes, this is probably true, although we can't be sure because we don't really have any other situations where it comes into play.

Now, do I think Excalibur can take out 12 of Berserker's lives? Not unless it was a plot device. The only reason you would assume that it could is because Caliburn took out 7.

And, personally, I think that there's a good chance that it could, although I will admit that we can't be sure. But, the point I was trying to make was not that Excalibur can take twelve lives, but that Excalibur can take more than one.

Using that same logic, Caladbolg and weakened Excalibur did nothing.

Did Caldaborg even hit? And, we don't know that the weakened Excalibur did nothing. It depends which meaning of "die" you think Ilya was using in that comment.

And yes, it does imply that God Hand isn't active, but I don't remember where I read that as I don't have the VN available.

I'd have to check, but it seems unlikely to me, since otherwise Shirou's defeat of Berserker is a lot less impressive. He shouldn't even need those eight slashes. They did precisely nothing. Also, I'm sure I remember it referring to him taking more than one life at one point.

Plus, him losing God Hand doesn't make sense, really. Just because he's turned Dark he shouldn't suddenly be nerfed so much.

[LostHanyou]

Well, it's not clear, but I think that it is pretty clear that he doesn't only have one life. There's no way that Shirou would need Nine Lives Bladeworks followed by a stab in the heart to take him down just once.
Imagine, for a moment, what Nine Lives would do if it were against anyone but Berserker. The eight slashes are probably to cripple the other servant, otherwise what would be the point of the other 8 slashes? If the first one kills a servant, it's pointless for it to be a series of 9 slashes, unless it was used on Heracles himself. And what are the chances someone would use it against him?


I'm pretty sure that she means "die completely", actually. She was saying it in a "well, if it had been full power, then you might have been released from your torment, Berserker" kind of way, and that doesn't make sense unless it means losing all twelve lives, not only one.

That seems open to interpretation, however Ilya does make a lot of mistakes when it comes to overestimating Berserker and underestimating other servants. It is just as likely that she was just taunting Saber.


And?
What we know about Caliburn:
- It's weaker than Excalibur
- Shirou's projection loses a rank

Which means the projected Caliburn had to be B+, as it's the only rank where it can successfully harm Berserker and be weaker than Excalibur. This means the original caliburn was A+. (IIRC it takes an A rank noble phantasm's to kill Berserker and B+ wouldn't do anything, but that would mean Caliburn was an EX Noble Phantasm originally and projected to A rank, which makes no sense either, but doesn't hurt my point.)
Caladbolg is A rank.
Caliburn cuts through Berserker's sword, pierces his chest, and takes out 7 lives.
Caladbolg is blocked by Berserker's sword and does not scratch him.
But let's ignore caladbolg doing nothing. This means the thrown gae bolg can, give or take a life, take out around 7 lives, if we base things around Caliburn. You keep saying this really is consistent, but I don't see it.


Where do you get this from? He kept going for a while, yes, but he didn't "continue to live". Also, I'm not sure it's ever made clear at what point he loses his final life.
It's made clear that he should be dead after Enkidu and the Gate of Babylon attacks, when he's on his final life.


No, but that applies either way. The original eight slashes didn't slow him down at all. The only reason Berserker didn't kill Shirou was because he actually stopped himself, to protect Ilya. Battle Continuation means that non-fatal wounds do nothing. The only way to stop the guy is to kill him outright, and a stab to the heart would do that with or without the other eight slashes. Yes, he can keep going for a bit even without the heart but, again, that's true with or without the slashes.
Even if the slashes didn't stop him (because he's still alive and can keep going) it certainly would have effected him. He can shrug off wounds, but they still make him weaker, as shown by the wounds Berserker received from Archer in Fate. In the end, it seems pretty likely that the ninth strike was the killing blow and the other 8 were, again, to cripple him, even if they didn't stop his movement.


Plus, him losing God Hand doesn't make sense, really. Just because he's turned Dark he shouldn't suddenly be nerfed so much.
He was blind probably because he was already Mad before turning dark and because he's a god. If he's blind and weaker because of that, it's not a stretch to think he loses a noble phantasm which is a blessing from the gods after he's corrupted.

[Cherry_Lover]

Imagine, for a moment, what Nine Lives would do if it were against anyone but Berserker.

Erm, that's a complete nonsense argument, because NPs aren't designed for the purpose of fighting other servants, they're representations of the abilities that they had in life. An NP can be totally useless, and it's still an NP (Caster, for instance, possesses an NP can in theory be used to summon a dragon (I think it's the Golden Fleece), but it's completely useless to her since she doesn't have the ability to actually activate it).

The eight slashes are probably to cripple the other servant, otherwise what would be the point of the other 8 slashes?

Except that it didn't cripple him. He kept right on going, without even so much as slowing down.

If the first one kills a servant, it's pointless for it to be a series of 9 slashes, unless it was used on Heracles himself. And what are the chances someone would use it against him?

Because it wasn't designed for use against servants. Nine Lives is a skill which he originally learned in order to kill the Hydra, which regrows its heads and thus needs to be killed with nine simultaneous strikes. Incidentally, it was also originally used with a bow, not with a sword, but the way it's implemented in the Nasuverse allows for it to be generalised to any weapon.

That seems open to interpretation, however Ilya does make a lot of mistakes when it comes to overestimating Berserker and underestimating other servants.

Not really. She is quite rightly secure in the knowledge that he's absurdly strong.

It is just as likely that she was just taunting Saber.

The way she says it doesn't make it come across like that to me.

- Shirou's projection loses a rank

Actually, it's not clear that this is true in the case of Caliburn, because of his connection to it. It may have avoided a rank down for some reason (and, yes, this is a plot hax).

Which means the projected Caliburn had to be B+, as it's the only rank where it can successfully harm Berserker and be weaker than Excalibur. This means the original caliburn was A+.

Err, the power of a weapon is not directly linked to its rank.

(IIRC it takes an A rank noble phantasm's to kill Berserker and B+ wouldn't do anything, but that would mean Caliburn was an EX Noble Phantasm originally and projected to A rank, which makes no sense either, but doesn't hurt my point.)

Well, yes....

This means the thrown gae bolg can, give or take a life, take out around 7 lives, if we base things around Caliburn. You keep saying this really is consistent, but I don't see it.

The thing is, it's not that simple. Rank is not directly equivalent to power, and power may not be directly related to the number of lives it takes. An attack which concentrates lots of power into one single point (e.g. the heart) will probably only kill him once.

It's made clear that he should be dead after Enkidu and the Gate of Babylon attacks, when he's on his final life.

I'll have to read the scene again....

Even if the slashes didn't stop him (because he's still alive and can keep going) it certainly would have effected him. He can shrug off wounds, but they still make him weaker, as shown by the wounds Berserker received from Archer in Fate. In the end, it seems pretty likely that the ninth strike was the killing blow and the other 8 were, again, to cripple him, even if they didn't stop his movement.

Go look at the text. The strikes don't even slow him down. Therefore, if they weren't to take lives, they were useless.

He was blind probably because he was already Mad before turning dark and because he's a god. If he's blind and weaker because of that, it's not a stretch to think he loses a noble phantasm which is a blessing from the gods after he's corrupted.

Blindness is different from losing an NP.

[Moczo]

Just a heads up: this argument should probably be moved to the Game thread. Q&A is for short, simple answers to questions, and this has gone waaaaay past that; it's really only a matter of time until a mod steps in, and we should nip that in the bud. (And yes, I am aware that I fanned the flames a bit too. I apologize.)

[Cherry_Lover]

Just a heads up: this argument should probably be moved to the Game thread. Q&A is for short, simple answers to questions, and this has gone waaaaay past that; it's really only a matter of time until a mod steps in, and we should nip that in the bud. (And yes, I am aware that I fanned the flames a bit too. I apologize.)

Well, it probably fits better in there, yes, but it's pretty much impossible to "move" an argument. But, you're right that the mods are somewhat anal about stuff like that on here, so....

[LostHanyou]

Erm, that's a complete nonsense argument, because NPs aren't designed for the purpose of fighting other servants, they're representations of the abilities that they had in life. An NP can be totally useless, and it's still an NP (Caster, for instance, possesses an NP can in theory be used to summon a dragon (I think it's the Golden Fleece), but it's completely useless to her since she doesn't have the ability to actually activate it).
That's bull, unless you're suggesting Rule Breaker wasn't specifically made to effect servants and actually had any historical relevance. In fact there's very few noble phantasm's which make any sense at all. You can bring up the Golden Fleece as an example, but I could provide far more examples which show that Noble Phantasm's are distorted so that they can be used to fight other servants.

I suppose Nasu just didn't think about it since Berserker wouldn't be able to use it anyway.


Actually, it's not clear that this is true in the case of Caliburn, because of his connection to it. It may have avoided a rank down for some reason (and, yes, this is a plot hax).
Uh... I don't see how it would have avoided a rank decrease. He was able to project Avalon without a rank decrease because he was used to the structure, but he didn't share such a connection with Caliburn.


Err, the power of a weapon is not directly linked to its rank.

The thing is, it's not that simple. Rank is not directly equivalent to power, and power may not be directly related to the number of lives it takes. An attack which concentrates lots of power into one single point (e.g. the heart) will probably only kill him once.
You're right, however I think it's reasonable to assume Noble Phantasm's of equal rank shouldn't have such a large power difference that one of them would take out 7 lives and break a weapon while another would do nothing. Bellerophon vs Excalibur is a good example of power comparison, I think, and they actually have a value difference.

Also, is that not how Caliburn worked? After 'jamming it in' to Berserker's chest there was some crazy laser blast that didn't seem to envelope all of Berserker, but rather only his chest and back area.


Just a heads up: this argument should probably be moved to the Game thread. Q&A is for short, simple answers to questions, and this has gone waaaaay past that; it's really only a matter of time until a mod steps in, and we should nip that in the bud. (And yes, I am aware that I fanned the flames a bit too. I apologize.)
Alright, I'll make this my last post (not asking Cherry Lover to give me the last say, though!). Nasuverse is always heavily debated so I guess I can see why mods would be strict about this.

[Cherry_Lover]

That's bull, unless you're suggesting Rule Breaker wasn't specifically made to effect servants and actually had any historical relevance. In fact there's very few noble phantasm's which make any sense at all. You can bring up the Golden Fleece as an example, but I could provide far more examples which show that Noble Phantasm's are distorted so that they can be used to fight other servants.

There's a distinction between "in-game" reasoning and "out-of-game" reasoning. In in-game terms, an NP is supposed to be some representation of an ability or weapon that they had in life, so you can't use the fact that Nine Lives is essentially pointless in all realistic circumstances (in terms of fighting in the Grail War) to prove anything, because it doesn't matter from an in-game viewpoint.

From an out-of-game viewpoint, you are of course entirely right that Nasu invented NPs (like Rule Breaker) for the sake of convinience. However, we already know why Nasu invented Nine Lives. He did so so that Shirou could use it in HF to pwn Berserker. So, the fact that it has no use in any other circumstance isn't relevant.

I suppose Nasu just didn't think about it since Berserker wouldn't be able to use it anyway.

More to the point, it doesn't matter. Even if he could use it, that wouldn't imply that it would have to be useful to him, because the person who is supposed to use it (in terms of the plot and the reasoning for it being included) is Shirou.

Uh... I don't see how it would have avoided a rank decrease. He was able to project Avalon without a rank decrease because he was used to the structure, but he didn't share such a connection with Caliburn.

Well, yes, you're probably right. Honestly, I'm trying to postulate reasons for why Caliburn could work on him.

You're right, however I think it's reasonable to assume Noble Phantasm's of equal rank shouldn't have such a large power difference that one of them would take out 7 lives and break a weapon while another would do nothing.

It's how they're used. Archer wasn't using Caldaborg as an NP, he was using it as an arrow. The power in the attack was likely different.

Bellerophon vs Excalibur is a good example of power comparison, I think, and they actually have a value difference.

Well, they're also different types of attack. In fact, Bellophron isn't an attack at all. It's the reins to allow Rider to use Pegasus. The attack is just Rider flying really, really fast into Saber. They're not directly comparable.

Also, is that not how Caliburn worked? After 'jamming it in' to Berserker's chest there was some crazy laser blast that didn't seem to envelope all of Berserker, but rather only his chest and back area.

It's not clear but, yes, you may be right. Honestly, the whole "Caliburn kills Berserker" thing is a bit of a plot-hole, but not because a weapon can necessarily only take one life.

[NightWingx]

Hi i'm new here and i want to know if im on the right track with things.
I saw the 24 ep's of FSN, and was displeased, it seemed like things were tossed together like a salad with too many things in it.
I'm reading the VN, but i'm not sure if i'm supposed to be seeing things because everyone on here is talking about all sorts of stuff that i haven't noticed. I just started the UBW storyline, so maybe im not far enough, Idk. When does dark Saber and all that come into play? is that HF?
if anyone wants to reply to this, minor spoilers would be appreciative, i don't really know much outside the TV show / beginning of UBW.

[Moczo]

Hi i'm new here and i want to know if im on the right track with things.
I saw the 24 ep's of FSN, and was displeased, it seemed like things were tossed together like a salad with too many things in it.
I'm reading the VN, but i'm not sure if i'm supposed to be seeing things because everyone on here is talking about all sorts of stuff that i haven't noticed. I just started the UBW storyline, so maybe im not far enough, Idk. When does dark Saber and all that come into play? is that HF?
if anyone wants to reply to this, minor spoilers would be appreciative, i don't really know much outside the TV show / beginning of UBW.

Yes, the discussion that went on here for awhile was all about events that happen in Heaven's Feel. Try not to read too much detail into them, you'll ruin the route even more than... er... it already has been.

[NightWingx]

Yes, the discussion that went on here for awhile was all about events that happen in Heaven's Feel. Try not to read too much detail into them, you'll ruin the route even more than... er... it already has been.

Well, i already knew about dark saber and stuff and assassin [real] from The fate stay night game on Warcraft 3 lmao.
I just didn't know how they factor in to the situation. :\
Still don't, so good to know.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, those are both HF-specific characters. I won't explain where they come from, though, for obvious reasons....

As for us talking about stuff, the game thread is specifically aimed at game-related stuff, and so will contain unmasked spoilers for HF and UBW. The other threads will also likely contain some game spoilers, so I would suggest that you avoid reading anything that is spoiler-tagged, especially if it's marked "HF" or "UBW".

[NightWingx]

Yeah, those are both HF-specific characters. I won't explain where they come from, though, for obvious reasons....

As for us talking about stuff, the game thread is specifically aimed at game-related stuff, and so will contain unmasked spoilers for HF and UBW. The other threads will also likely contain some game spoilers, so I would suggest that you avoid reading anything that is spoiler-tagged, especially if it's marked "HF" or "UBW".

Finished True UBW
i didnt know archer was that much of an ass.
Maaaaaan.

[GDB]

So, here's a random thought that came to mind. What happens if a Master is summoning a Servant, and has two catalysts (one for two different Servants)?

Does it summon the one that Master is consciously trying to summon, the one more similar to the Master (ie: whichever would be more likely to be summoned without a Catalyst), do the two cancel each other out and it summons whatever Servant fits the Master best, or is it just random between the two?

[Cherry_Lover]

So, here's a random thought that came to mind. What happens if a Master is summoning a Servant, and has two catalysts (one for two different Servants)?

Does it summon the one that Master is consciously trying to summon, the one more similar to the Master (ie: whichever would be more likely to be summoned without a Catalyst), do the two cancel each other out and it summons whatever Servant fits the Master best, or is it just random between the two?

It summons whichever one the master has a stronger "pull" on. Having a catalyst doesn't guarentee you a particular servant, it depends on how much the servant wants to be summoned, the nature of the spirit (CGs won't usually be summoned, for instance) and the strength of the connection between you and them (which includes how closely attached they are to the catalyst). For instance, if you gave Shirou Avalon and Rin's pendant, he would likely still get Saber, because the connection to Archer is (probably) not as strong and a CG is less likely to be summoned in general.

[GDB]

Makes sense, thanks. Though are Counter Guardians really that rare? I figured without a catalyst they'd be rare, but with a catalyst they'd probably be just as likely as any other Heroic Spirit to appear.

[Cherry_Lover]

Makes sense, thanks. Though are Counter Guardians really that rare? I figured without a catalyst they'd be rare, but with a catalyst they'd probably be just as likely as any other Heroic Spirit to appear.

The game explicitly states that since they don't have a legend, the Grail will not normally call upon a CG. Archer is stated to be a special case, because Rin had a catalyst that linked her specifically to him.

Otherwise, I'd imagine that you'd be getting far more CGs than normal Heroic Spirits, since there are probably many more of them.

[Polar_Lord]

Did the game ever explain why Saber couldn't just outmatch Gilgamesh with Excalibur in sword combat? I understand how Ea is more powerful and all, but GOB is pretty much useless if you can see it coming (especially since she has Instinct) and Enuma Elish seems to take time to charge right?

[grylsyjaeger]

Here's question brought on by my younger cousin upon seeing my UBW poster.

Unlimited Blade Works.

How exactly do we perceive that? As in like a foundry which a limitless number of blades can be produced or as if saying the use of limitless blades gets the job done?

By the Reality Marble I always thought it was the first option but upon thinking of the fighting style of just spamming weapons, I'm unsure.

[Moczo]

Did the game ever explain why Saber couldn't just outmatch Gilgamesh with Excalibur in sword combat? I understand how Ea is more powerful and all, but GOB is pretty much useless if you can see it coming (especially since she has Instinct) and Enuma Elish seems to take time to charge right?


If she can get into melee, she can outmatch him in close combat. The problem is doing that; her instinct for deflecting projectiles isn't limitless. He can hit her with dozens or even hundreds of shots at once, some of them so strong they must feel like her arms are being ripped off when she blocks them. And then you've got weapons that can't be sensed, or weapons that have secondary powers, ones designed for slaying dragons that therefore have extra effectiveness on her... she can barely defend against all that while standing still, much less while trying to attack herself.

As for the other thing, Excalibur takes some time to charge too, and Ea can defeat it with only a fraction of its power. So seeing her release the wind field and start to glow gives him ample time to counterattack.

----------------------------------------------

EDIT:

And actually, I have a question too, now that I think about it. Have the names of any members of the Einzbern family other than Ilya, Irisviel, and Justicia been confirmed? In particular the patriarch, Ilya's grandfather.

[LostHanyou]

Here's question brought on by my younger cousin upon seeing my UBW poster.

Unlimited Blade Works.

How exactly do we perceive that? As in like a foundry which a limitless number of blades can be produced or as if saying the use of limitless blades gets the job done?

By the Reality Marble I always thought it was the first option but upon thinking of the fighting style of just spamming weapons, I'm unsure.
LOL took me a while to get this.

I'd assume the first...

[GDB]

And actually, I have a question too, now that I think about it. Have the names of any members of the Einzbern family other than Ilya, Irisviel, and Justicia been confirmed? In particular the patriarch, Ilya's grandfather.

Jubstacheit von Einzbern is the current leader of the Einzbern family, which I assume means he's Ilya's grandfather.

[Moczo]

Jubstacheit von Einzbern is the current leader of the Einzbern family, which I assume means he's Ilya's grandfather.

Thanks!

... My next question would be 'is Jubstacheit a real name in any language at all, or is Nasu just trying to sound foreign again'? At least Ilyasviel and Irisviel sound kind of real, if not exactly German... this just sounds like someone sneezed and wrote down the sound it made. :heh:

[GDB]

Thanks!

... My next question would be 'is Jubstacheit a real name in any language at all, or is Nasu just trying to sound foreign again'? At least Ilyasviel and Irisviel sound kind of real, if not exactly German... this just sounds like someone sneezed and wrote down the sound it made. :heh:

I don't think it's real, but he's also supposed to be really old, having used Alchemy or something along those lines to extend his life. He's been around since the second Grail War, which would've been around the time of the Bakumatsu (1853-1867).

[Moczo]

I don't think it's real, but he's also supposed to be really old, having used Alchemy or something along those lines to extend his life. He's been around since the second Grail War, which would've been around the time of the Bakumatsu (1853-1867).

Hey, Nasu doesn't need an excuse. Why don't you ask 'Bazett Fraga McRemitz' and 'Luviagelita Edelfelt' how well he knows foreign names.

Oh, and thanks; any details are helpful.

[Cherry_Lover]

Unlimited Blade Works.

How exactly do we perceive that? As in like a foundry which a limitless number of blades can be produced or as if saying the use of limitless blades gets the job done?

By the Reality Marble I always thought it was the first option but upon thinking of the fighting style of just spamming weapons, I'm unsure.

It's the first. Archer's RM allows him to make unlimited numbers of blades, hence the name. It's a description of the RM itself, not an attempt at asserting that sword-spamming is the best method of fighting....

Jubstacheit von Einzbern is the current leader of the Einzbern family, which I assume means he's Ilya's grandfather.

I believe that he usually called "Acht von Einsbern" (because he is the eighth head of the Einsbern family), although I think you're right about his real name.

[Polar_Lord]

If she can get into melee, she can outmatch him in close combat. The problem is doing that; her instinct for deflecting projectiles isn't limitless. He can hit her with dozens or even hundreds of shots at once, some of them so strong they must feel like her arms are being ripped off when she blocks them. And then you've got weapons that can't be sensed, or weapons that have secondary powers, ones designed for slaying dragons that therefore have extra effectiveness on her... she can barely defend against all that while standing still, much less while trying to attack herself.

As for the other thing, Excalibur takes some time to charge too, and Ea can defeat it with only a fraction of its power. So seeing her release the wind field and start to glow gives him ample time to counterattack.


Well Saber could just dodge them instead of blocking every single one. I mean, I think it was established by Cherry quite a few pages back that Gil's sword spam is mostly useless against a lot of of Servants if they can see it coming. Besides, GOB only has NPs up to A++ in level i.e. the same as Excalibur and considering that the only other NPs that are confirmed to be of that level or above are Arondight and Ea, there can't really be that many of them at that level of strength...

Also consider that Lancelot managed to confortably hold off Gil's sword spam in Fate/Zero with Noble Phantasms that are, by probability, lower than A++ in strength so blocking them shouldn't be much trouble for Excalibur right?

[Moczo]

Well Saber could just dodge them instead of blocking every single one. I mean, I think it was established by Cherry quite a few pages back that Gil's sword spam is mostly useless against a lot of of Servants if they can see it coming. Besides, GOB only has NPs up to A++ in level i.e. the same as Excalibur and considering that the only other NPs that are confirmed to be of that level or above are Arondight and Ea, there can't really be that many of them at that level of strength...

Also consider that Lancelot managed to confortably hold off Gil's sword spam in Fate/Zero with Noble Phantasms that are, by probability, lower than A++ in strength so blocking them shouldn't be much trouble for Excalibur right?

She tries exactly that in the game more than once, and it doesn't end up working all that well. She's able to dodge it well enough to keep alive, but she still isn't able to get close to him and he just slowly chips her down. Lancer even says to Assassin in HF that projectiles are useless on him 'unless they are a great Noble Phantasm', implying that even the Protection from Arrows skill is a little bit ineffective against attacks of that level.

Lancelot is sort of a unique case; his own Noble Phantasm allows him to catch the hurled weapons and use them as his own, so he has kind of the perfect countermeasure.

[RadiantBeam]

A bit random, but are we ever given a description of what Nasu's version of Guinevere looks like? I remember reading somewhere that she and Rin looked similar, but I was wondering if that was officially confirmed anywhere. And if not, is there any description of what she looks like?

[Guernsey]

I know I asked this before but how does the whole route thing in FSN work again? It is in alternate timeline, universe, dimension, sotry or whaT?

[Haak]

Each route is an alternate timeline.

[Polar_Lord]

When Shirou and Saber use Caliburn on Berserker in the Fate route, they don't actually call out its name. Does this mean that they didn't even need to unleash its full power in order to kill Berserker five times?

[Haak]

When Shirou and Saber use Caliburn on Berserker in the Fate route, they don't actually call out its name. Does this mean that they didn't even need to unleash its full power in order to kill Berserker five times?

It just doesn't need to have it's name called out.

[Polar_Lord]

It just doesn't need to have it's name called out.

I can't recall exactly where, but I'm pretty sure it was firmly established that Noble Phantasms (at least the weapon-based ones and not passive ones like God Hand) need to have prana channelled into them AND their true name called out in order for them to be activated.

[Haak]

Okay fine. It's a plot hole.