View Full Version : Why is he so secretive??? (manga only pls...)
Novarain
2006-02-04, 08:47
Hi all, i was just wondering why Isshin is so secretive. No one except Urahara and Kon knows that he's a death god (and a captain too...) and here's a few chances he had to reveal himself but didn't:
at the start, when Karin was attacked by the hollow looking for Ichigo, why didn't he save Karin? he took an awful risk of waiting for Rukia to transfer powers to Ichigo.
when grand fisher appeared in the graveyard, Ichigo almost died and it was through sheer luck that Ichigo drove it away. and he was supposed to have sworn to kill it...
when Ichigo and Ishida were surrounded by hollows, he instead let Urahara and friends save them...
when Ichigo was getting owned by Ulqouira and Yami, it was Urahara and Yoruichi who saved him.
Does he have some secret agenda or does he not want to reveal himself for some other reason?
Discuss.
Nightengale
2006-02-04, 08:53
Urahara said that the time he killed GF was the first time in a very long time since he last entered Shinigami mode.
It's likely that something was done to Isshin to assure that he cannot be detected by Soul Society and is 100% pure human capable of intercourse and having children, yet in return, he cannot revert into Shinigami mode.
Who knows. Maybe Kubo just pulled out of his ass in the last moment, leaving plot-holes. Long ongoing series do have such tendecies.
-KarumA-
2006-02-04, 11:49
maybe they didnt write that far into the story yet, and therefore these things ocurs like you said
mayb they thought of something new, making Isshin a death God in a later plot when they had already published these first chapters i n witch it sounds like he is normal
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-02-04, 15:21
Hi all, i was just wondering why Isshin is so secretive. No one except Urahara and Kon knows that he's a death god (and a captain too...) and here's a few chances he had to reveal himself but didn't:
at the start, when Karin was attacked by the hollow looking for Ichigo, why didn't he save Karin? he took an awful risk of waiting for Rukia to transfer powers to Ichigo.
when grand fisher appeared in the graveyard, Ichigo almost died and it was through sheer luck that Ichigo drove it away. and he was supposed to have sworn to kill it...
when Ichigo and Ishida were surrounded by hollows, he instead let Urahara and friends save them...
when Ichigo was getting owned by Ulqouira and Yami, it was Urahara and Yoruichi who saved him.
Does he have some secret agenda or does he not want to reveal himself for some other reason?
Discuss.
Or could it just be that he beleived and new what his son was capable of?
Deathawk
2006-02-04, 15:26
If u rewatch the frist episode it says that Isshin is out of town on a business trip or some sort confrence. But in the manga he is on the floor with his daughter. I guess they were trying to fill in that plot hole
Edit: Oops i didnt read the manga only thing. Sorry
gangsta905_04
2006-02-04, 19:31
its assumed that you watch anime as well as read manga, so no need to be sorry since manga readers are advanced..relative to anime-watchers =)
lemondude
2006-02-04, 19:58
dude when did this happen??? wat chapter, note that I have read the most recent chapters but due to the way IP read manga and watch anime I might haave missed something here and there.
The Small One
2006-02-05, 06:05
Maybe he doesn't want Ichigo to rely on his father, so he doesn't tell him.
But what I really wonder is, why the information was revealed to the audience.
Komataguri
2006-02-05, 11:25
Or he didn't have a means to escape from his gigai, if what he was residing it was truely a gigai.
Isshin swore off being a shinigami when masaki died and he continues living his life as any oridnary person.Maybe just maybe killing Grandfisher was his last act as shinigami, he owes that to masaki but that doesnt quite answer Graveyard incident.. Maybe he had faith in rukia and ichi combowould do the job at the graveyard.
or maybe Uruhara told him to back off.
baka manko
2006-02-07, 00:43
Did he know that GF killed Masaki when he appeard at first?
One other thing, in the episode where Chad got attacked by parakeet boy, Isshin says to one of the hospital nurses to tell the director that Isshin called and tons of bed will open up.
Later we find out that Ryuuken is the hospital Director.
fishyfishy2k
2006-02-07, 02:23
Also if u guys think about it Masaki probably knew Isshin was a shinigami. I mean since they were husband and wife and i dont doubt it. I also think Masaki had like spirit powers too, but like Orihime; its not that strong. And Since Isshin was a shinigami hes already busy so he couldnt protect his family and we know the Ichigo story as well. Seriously though if you would ask me i believe Isshin is really protective of his identity too. And also i wanna know how strong he really is I mean this is a very good opening for some Father and son training haha which i dont doubt will happen
Tempestuousfury
2006-02-07, 03:20
First off, in either the manga or anime, has reproduction when inside a gigai been discussed?
A friend of mine who frequents this forum told me about an explanation that he had come across on a forum (perhaps this one).
That explanation:
Isshin, in order to hide from SS, or perhaps just lead a normal life (this part is up for interps), decided to hide himself by forsaking his shinigami powers as well as any abilities he had i.e. seeing ghosts, hollows, etc. That would explain his getting trounced in the first chapter, his not knowing what was happening at the graveyard, his inability to physically best his son when waking him up every morning, etc. since he really could not have known what was going on. This extreme immersion into a gigai body might also have facilitated (intentionally or unintentionally) the transfer of his powers to his offspring, namely ichigo (my spin on it).
His regaining his abilities might simply be his breaking a seal on his power, and he did not need to have necessarily seen GF, since ichi-kon was apparently in trouble (this part is a bit fuzzy, since I read it ages ago).
Sorry about the rambling, hopefully I somewhat accurately convey what my friend had read.
Sidenote: did Urahara have anything to do with Isshin's gigai/ abilitiy sealing? And his being unable to get into SS, how exactly was he exiled/ self-exiled? Since he attempted to go through the gate and he was zapped.
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-02-07, 03:59
First off, in either the manga or anime, has reproduction when inside a gigai been discussed?
A friend of mine who frequents this forum told me about an explanation that he had come across on a forum (perhaps this one).
That explanation:
Isshin, in order to hide from SS, or perhaps just lead a normal life (this part is up for interps), decided to hide himself by forsaking his shinigami powers as well as any abilities he had i.e. seeing ghosts, hollows, etc. That would explain his getting trounced in the first chapter, his not knowing what was happening at the graveyard, his inability to physically best his son when waking him up every morning, etc. since he really could not have known what was going on. This extreme immersion into a gigai body might also have facilitated (intentionally or unintentionally) the transfer of his powers to his offspring, namely ichigo (my spin on it).
His regaining his abilities might simply be his breaking a seal on his power, and he did not need to have necessarily seen GF, since ichi-kon was apparently in trouble (this part is a bit fuzzy, since I read it ages ago).
Sorry about the rambling, hopefully I somewhat accurately convey what my friend had read.
Sidenote: did Urahara have anything to do with Isshin's gigai/ abilitiy sealing? And his being unable to get into SS, how exactly was he exiled/ self-exiled? Since he attempted to go through the gate and he was zapped.
about the seal, does anyone remember the tag he puts on Ichigo's shirt? Does anyone have a theory or explanation?
such an interesting topic...could be a plot hole..or could be a clever twist kabu tite wants the readers to think about?
dont completely agree with Tempestuousfury
because urahara specifically created the gigai that sucks all powers out for the purpose of hiding the lil thing that aizen was lookign for (4got what called)
not to make shinigamis into normal people out of pleasure
...also it was making rukia into a normal person and less in sync with her shinigami powers and weakening her greatly, if it was the same for ishin why did he come out all powerful when he killed of the hollow?
doesnt quite fit
oh well i hope kabu tite will explian in the end..im sure the last battle wil be the best where ishida, kurosaki and the gang, their dads, ect. get together and fight!
The Small One
2006-02-07, 11:58
because urahara specifically created the gigai that sucks all powers out for the purpose of hiding the lil thing that aizen was lookign for (4got what called)
not to make shinigamis into normal people out of pleasure
It was never said, for what purpose Urahara invented this Gigai.
I don't think he had a special purpose in mind. He probably just wanted to extend his kowledge.
Novarain
2006-02-09, 07:08
Cool a lot of interesting theories here...
However i still have one very fundamental question: why did he even leave SS?
The only theory i can think of now is that he was supposed to be "Killed" by Kenpachi but he somehow escaped and with Urahara's help managed to get into the real world to hide.
Hmmm.....................
Deathawk
2006-02-09, 20:07
Cool a lot of interesting theories here...
However i still have one very fundamental question: why did he even leave SS?
The only theory i can think of now is that he was supposed to be "Killed" by Kenpachi but he somehow escaped and with Urahara's help managed to get into the real world to hide.
Hmmm.....................
And if im not mistaken didnt isshin have something around his wrist that looked like a one of those things that all the vice-captins wore. He could have been the vic-captin of Kenpachi's predicessor and after kenpachi killed him he just halued ass before he got killed for the VC spot.
And yeah i would really like to know y Uhara made the power sealing gigai.
Tempestuousfury
2006-02-09, 20:55
LOL, we're all dumb*ss*s. :P
Chapter 175 has all the answers.
Reason for Kisuke Urahara's ban: The gigai that Kisuke Urahara made had not spirit particles, and was not detectable by SS. Also, this gigai breaks down the spiritual energy of the shinigami inside the gigai, eventually robbing them of all their powers, making them 100% human. I am 100% sure that Rukia had this gigai, though Isshin might have also had it, which is unlikely since he became a shinigami. However... there are multiple possibilities:
1.) Not sure if normal gigais can procreate, but this gigai was 100% matter, no spiritual particles, so it is more than possible to have children with it.
2.) Isshin had an imperfect prototype of the same gigai, which allowed him to turn into a shinigami, and which might have facilitated the transfer of shinigami powers to his son.
3.) Isshin had a normal gigai, and it could reproduce and still allow his son to obtain shinigami powers.
Hmm.... I had not noticed a vice captain emblem... couldn't he have been Urahara's fukutaichou? Since I don't think Yoruichi was his fukutaichou, though I might have missed this.
Also, does Isshin's uniform denote his being in 11th squad? If so, couldn't Urahara have been the captain who faked his death?
LOL, we're all dumb*ss*s. :P
Chapter 175 has all the answers.
Reason for Kisuke Urahara's ban: The gigai that Kisuke Urahara made had not spirit particles, and was not detectable by SS. Also, this gigai breaks down the spiritual energy of the shinigami inside the gigai, eventually robbing them of all their powers, making them 100% human. I am 100% sure that Rukia had this gigai, though Isshin might have also had it, which is unlikely since he became a shinigami. However... there are multiple possibilities:
1.) Not sure if normal gigais can procreate, but this gigai was 100% matter, no spiritual particles, so it is more than possible to have children with it.
2.) Isshin had an imperfect prototype of the same gigai, which allowed him to turn into a shinigami, and which might have facilitated the transfer of shinigami powers to his son.
3.) Isshin had a normal gigai, and it could reproduce and still allow his son to obtain shinigami powers.
Hmm.... I had not noticed a vice captain emblem... couldn't he have been Urahara's fukutaichou? Since I don't think Yoruichi was his fukutaichou, though I might have missed this.
Also, does Isshin's uniform denote his being in 11th squad? If so, couldn't Urahara have been the captain who faked his death?
What about yoruichi's and Urahara's gigai ,are they protototpes also ?
(has an Unhealthy obcession with Urahara and very natural obcession with Yoruichi ,so just curious) o_o
Tempestuousfury
2006-02-09, 22:08
No clue about those two...
I'm getting closer to 213 in my re-re-reading, but I doubt that that will be naswered, though Urahara does ask about Yoruichi's arm. And I suppose being able to hide his reiatsu would be helpful when avoiding SS, though that's quite a few years he would have had to be in that gigai, which should have potentially sapped all his powers...
Also, chapter 188, Urahara apologizes in case Isshin's power went down. Potentially, the apology could be because Isshin had to leave SS for Urahara, and therefore lost time as a shinigami, or far far more likely, the gigai he used sapped his reiatsu.
NoSanninWa
2006-02-10, 01:37
What about yoruichi's and Urahara's gigai ,are they protototpes also ?
(has an Unhealthy obcession with Urahara and very natural obcession with Yoruichi ,so just curious) o_o
Since Urahara makes gigai himself... they could have any number of "special" features not available in the production models. Procreation is easily a possibility if Isshin had Urahara make the gigai just for him.
His gigai might also be able to dampen reiatsu to prevent detection, without permanently draining the reiatsu of the spirit inside the gigai. Of course, this would likely reduce Isshin's spiritual awareness if he was inside such a gigai. As a result he might not notice hollows unless they were directly in his presence. Think of this as a working theory for why he wasn't around when all those hollows were active. His dampened spiritual awareness might have actually blinded him to those battles unless they were right in front of him.
The Small One
2006-02-10, 02:44
What about yoruichi's and Urahara's gigai ,are they protototpes also ?
Urahara's and Yoruichi's Gigai?
Do they even use Gigais in the first place? :confused:
Yoruichi usually had a cat form in the human world, and Urahara just met with people, who have spirit powers, like Ichigo & friends.
And usually, when entering a Gigai, the Shinigami clothes and especially the Zanpakutou vanishes, however Urahara had his Zanpakutou ready, when he was with Ichigo in his underground Training room.
Novarain
2006-02-14, 03:28
Hmm.... I had not noticed a vice captain emblem... couldn't he have been Urahara's fukutaichou? Since I don't think Yoruichi was his fukutaichou, though I might have missed this.
Also, does Isshin's uniform denote his being in 11th squad? If so, couldn't Urahara have been the captain who faked his death?
Isshin can't have been Urahara's VC cos he clearly told GF that he's of the Captain class. As for Gigais i thought they're only used when the Death God gets super weakened that they can't get back to SS so they get into the gigai to restore power.
Besides, Urahara was 12th squad...
His gigai might also be able to dampen reiatsu to prevent detection, without permanently draining the reiatsu of the spirit inside the gigai. Of course, this would likely reduce Isshin's spiritual awareness if he was inside such a gigai. As a result he might not notice hollows unless they were directly in his presence. Think of this as a working theory for why he wasn't around when all those hollows were active. His dampened spiritual awareness might have actually blinded him to those battles unless they were right in front of him.
This may be a theory but i don't remember Isshin following Kon out of the house.
Damn i wish Kubo would sort this out...
The Small One
2006-02-14, 03:35
Isshin can't have been Urahara's VC cos he clearly told GF that he's of the Captain class.
IIRC, he didn't say, that he is captain class... the conversation was more like:
GF: Look how big my Zanpakutou is.
Isshin: Well, those of captain class can control their size.
I don't remember him saying, that he is currently controlling his Zanpakutou's size.
But this is just a bit nitpicking. :D
eLcHaKeTeRo
2006-02-14, 05:15
and on top of that he has a torn captain's robe.......1+1......lol, but i think that he was tryin to imply that he is captain class dont u think? I do.
Novarain
2006-02-18, 08:07
Yeah and i'm starting to wonder if Kubo leaves such stuff unknown so we can actually have a discussion like this...
Come on and EXPLAIN IT KUBO!!!
IIRC, he didn't say, that he is captain class... the conversation was more like:
GF: Look how big my Zanpakutou is.
Isshin: Well, those of captain class can control their size.
I don't remember him saying, that he is currently controlling his Zanpakutou's size.
But this is just a bit nitpicking. :D
I'm pretty sure Isshin made his Zanpakutou super huge to kill GF, and GF was like "WTF?!", so Isshin let him in on that fact.
The reason i think he is so secretive is because he is "The King". He has a captains robe and a badge. You can only have one or the other on you. He has a fancy looking soul slayer (Noble). And a lot of people dont know him because he isnt aware to the public eye thats why rukia doesnt know who he is. And i think theres a sign on somebodies door in the house.
arvineFei
2006-02-19, 11:15
u mean "the king" as in the one discussed in a thread about a bleach guide book?
Wow, then Ichigo must be one hell of a prince then.
Isshin leave SS bcos he fell in love w Masaki wasnt it?
He probably planned it all. It's all for the sake of Ichigo powering-up.
u mean "the king" as in the one discussed in a thread about a bleach guide book?
Wow, then Ichigo must be one hell of a prince then.
Isshin leave SS bcos he fell in love w Masaki wasnt it?
Yes "the king" in the vibe book. There isnt an official word about him leaving for masaki but thats the most likely choice why he left.
NoSanninWa
2006-02-20, 02:03
And i think theres a sign on somebodies door in the house.
The sign that people like to mention as if it has some significance is on Ichigo's door. It is the number 15. The reason that he has that sign on his door is a pun. In Japanese 1 is 'ichi' and five is 'go'. So when you put those numbers together it is his name.
This has nothing to do with Isshin or anything else.
The sign that people like to mention as if it has some significance is on Ichigo's door. It is the number 15. The reason that he has that sign on his door is a pun. In Japanese 1 is 'ichi' and five is 'go'. So when you put those numbers together it is his name.
This has nothing to do with Isshin or anything else.
Ah i see, thanks for clearing that up.
partizan
2006-03-01, 08:30
My theory:
1) Only one Hougyoku exists in Bleach.
2) It was originally inside Isshin so that he could have a normal life.
3) Isshin wanted the Hougyoku removed as soon as he realized that Ichigo is in over his head.
4) The Hougyoku was placed inside Rukia.
5) It takes a while for Hougyoku hosts power to be restored after Urahara does his thing to turn human-shinagami back into a 'regular' shinigami. (I assume that Rukia never did completely become human b/c she wasn't in the ?fox? body or had the Hougyoku long enough.)
6) Isshin is waiting for the right time/way to tell Ichigo the 'truth' or some other strategic reasons.
As I wrote this I also began to wonder if Hougyoku acts as a container. If it is and assuming my theory is correct than all of Isshins power would have been stored in the Hougyoku along with what was left of Rukias powers. And Aizen is using Hougyokus 'stored' energy to do his dirty work.
physics223
2006-03-01, 09:22
I was almost banned for this by NSW, but I believe like one poster said that Isshin is of the nobility. Having a spoiled attitude and a haughty one at that makes me think that he is perhaps King, and he left SS so as to collude with Masaki, whom he loves.
Masaki has special sight - remember that she died for the sake of Ichigo? - so she could probably see things beyond this world. A traveling Isshin sees Masaki, but doesn't mind her because she is human. Masaki says hello ... or does something of that sort. They strike up a conversation, and eventually Isshin comes and goes from SS to see her. They date, but the inevitable must have happened: they couldn't be together because he's a pure-soul and she's a human.
Isshin, being the King (or so I think) that he is calls Urahara up, and asks a favor for him to create some sort of a human body so that he could love Masaki. Urahara does so, and thus the cryptic conversation of 186. Isshin escapes the Kingdom but doesn't make it obvious to SS or to the royal guard. Secrets within the palace are tightly kept, and as the SS is separate from where the King rules, nothing is made obvious that even Aizen does not know.
Masaki and Isshin love each other: they produce offspring. Because of the inherent spiritual power of nobles they have a son and a daughter with strong signs of spiritual power (Karin and Ichigo) and one relatively human but still with a hint (Yuzu). He slowly turns into a human and acts like one, maybe taking the hint of Masaki.
Then she dies. :)
partizan
2006-03-01, 17:24
I thought that Urahara placed gigai inside Rukia to supress her powers and at the same time with out her knowledge he put Hougyoku inside of her.
So does HOUGYOKU changes Shinagami into Hollow, and Hollow into Shinagami?
And does GIGAIi supresses hosts powers.....?
Someone who knows what they are talking about correct me if I'm wrong! B/c I have seen a few posts which use the two interchangeably, I even read some people describing Gigai as hosts' Soul/Spirit which i don't think is true!!! :confused: :eyespin: :confused: :eyespin: :confused:
I thought that Urahara placed gigai inside Rukia to supress her powers and at the same time with out her knowledge he put Hougyoku inside of her.
So does HOUGYOKU changes Shinagami into Hollow, and Hollow into Shinagami?
And does GIGAIi supresses hosts powers.....?
Someone who knows what they are talking about correct me if I'm wrong! B/c I have seen a few posts which use the two interchangeably, I even read some people describing Gigai as hosts' Soul/Spirit which i don't think is true!!! :confused: :eyespin: :confused: :eyespin: :confused:
As far as the Hougyoku question goes, that is still unclear. However, as with the case with Ichigo, the Hougyoku is NOT needed to go between forms. It is more believed that this just fine tunes the process so the right hybrid combination increases the potential of power the most.
And for the gigai, i think it's just supposed to be a fake body for the soul to inhabit. Just think of Kon -- it's not a gigai, because it's stuffed animal. Basically what specifies a gigai is it's resemblances to the human body.
I hope people weren't using the words interchangably, because they definitely don't mean the same thing. They probably were referring, though, to the containment of the Hougyoku in a special gigai.
Anyway, those are the simple explanations. As far as answering what kind of gigai Urahara, Vizoreds, or Isshin being a big one since we're not sure if he uses one or not, i wouldn't really know.
the king theory seems to make sense for me.
man, can't wait until ichigo finally discovers that his dad's a shinigami haha. We'll probably see one semi-serious fight between father and son. :)
Novarain
2006-03-03, 03:15
lol Isshin vs. Ichigo... that's gonna be interesting....
But don't you think it happens all the time? with Isshin and his "Goooooood Morning IIIIIIIchigooooooooo"
King theory doesn't make any sense to me, and it souds like crap... I don't think Kubo would do something like that... Ichigo is a super powerful prince with orange hair and everybody's picking on prince :heh:
Isshin couldn't save Masaki as he couldn't save his douthers because he couldn't leave his gagai and become a shinigami...
when he thinks that he might soon take part in a war he start some ritual to be able to leave gigai, or the time that was required for it is up...
he gave Ichigo's body a tracker so he could watch over it while Kon was inside, and if he can't feel reiatsu than this was his only way to find his enemies...
why he showed up only then? he had to reveange his wife... remember that Kukkaku had her way to overcome her brother's death if only Rukia came and apologiest, and so probably Isshin was waiting for it... and that was the only time he needed to come out...
when Yami and Uqoila(sp) came he couldn't go or Urahara forbid him... and when second Arnacar inpact came he probably didn't know or thought that he is too weak (or maybe Urahara again, as he was the only that didn't come till very end too) but we don't know that he wasn't watching like Tatsuki :D
anyway... I can't see a reason for a KING to exist when Aizen said that there never was anybody that was standing in heaven (No God, No King) and he wants to become one...
Isshin might be some old VC and he took his dead Capitan's cape, but it couldn't be Zaraki's as he's wearing the same one all this time (Tousen has him taking it in his flashback)
I belive that Kubo is a great story teller and foroward(sp)thinker... I wish "Zombie Powter" was still on-going :D
JackRydden224
2006-03-03, 20:01
I think is as simple as the older generation (Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin) wishes to let the younger generation (ichigo, renji, hitsugaya..etc) to grow as much as they can and only help them out when it is absolutely necessary.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.