View Full Version : AIR TV on Blue-Ray Disc
http://www.bs-i.co.jp/anime/AIR/
The official site said something about the AIR TV will be released on Blue-Ray.
I think this is a great news. The regular NTSC resolution is not enough to fully enjoy AIR's graphical greatness.
(And now i have a reason to buy a PS3. :)
As long as Pony Canyon doesn't screw up the encoding like they did with the R2 DVDs...
Uwaaaaa~ If this really comes out, I know that would make me buy a PS3, just for that. ^^
I really hope this happen's.. adding Air to the collection would be magical! ;_;
Wow Blueray release. AIR is going high tech already^^
DVD's are yesterday's news :)
Rosa Mystica
2006-03-16, 06:50
Soon as that comes out, I'll buy it ... and then wait for an multi region blue ray player :upset:
Monster in a box
2006-03-22, 18:21
I dont' want to have a reason to buy a PS3! Not like this is for anywhere other than Japan anyway...
...and if they do go nuts and bring it to the US (you never know....even if they said they'll never do it, it doesn't mean they'll never do it) it'll probably take a while and by then maybe I'll already have a reason to buy a PS3. Much as I'd like to think they'll stay on the PS2 forever, beatmania and Pop'n Music are bound to move eventually, assuming the two are still around in a couple of years....and they'd better be.
AIR on Blu-ray demoed @ Tokyo Animation Fair 2006 (http://ocn.amikai.com/amiweb/browser.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co. jp%2Fav%2Fdocs%2F20060323%2Ftaf2.htm&display=2&langpair=2%2C1&c_id=ocn&lang=JA&toolbar=yes).
Very prettiful. 30-40mbps, averages 35mbps. MPEG-2, of course, but still... nice. :)
No english subtitles means no purchasing though. :(
-Andiyar
OMGOMGOMG has there been any announcements/news on when, where, and how much one of those are going to cost???
OT: I can't help but laugh at Nadesico being translated as pink. lol. I first saw the image of Ruri and read the description below it, and I was like, "WTH is pink? Isn't this Nadesico?"
Simply beautiful... I'm sure once you go blu-ray, youll never go back again. AIR is the perfect choice to show off the possiblities of the new technology for anime.
Until then, the closest you'll come to HD AIR goodness is Ishin's HD version fansub of the AIR summer special^^
I can't even run it at all since my computer is too slow :(
Simply beautiful... I'm sure once you go blu-ray, youll never go back again. AIR is the perfect choice to show off the possiblities of the new technology for anime.
Kinda like how people forgot about VCD when DVD came out :D The time when we see "BD Rip" is near durhurhur
Hmmm.. I think KAA's DVD rips of AIR TV are nice. They encoded it in H264 and vorbis. They only have 1-4 out though.
I guess I'm a little behind, I just found out about this.
When AIR was first airing I said to myself that if it came out on Blu-ray, I'd buy it and a player just for this show.
Guess I have to make good on my word. :)
The downloadable subtitles feature would be great if you can download fan subtitles.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060720/pony.htm
Release date is the 1st of November, also comes with a bonus disc with a bunch of groovy goodes~
Can't wait for this one. ^__^
... 29800¥. 29800¥!. That's northwards of $250 US for the unwilling-to-convert.
The scary thing is, that's an absolute bargain compared to the actual DVDs, especially if Air in Summer is included. Which... well, I suppose it may be. Does the actual page there say either way?
Now, if I had a blu-ray player, and if there was a way to make it download subtitles from a user-defined location, I could see myself having a very difficult choice to make this November: Which is more important - food or AIR?
Of course, if the subtitle thing was possible, I'm somewhat amused to note that my reaction is "buy the disks, buy a blu-ray player, download the subtitles!" I can't think of just about anything else I'm willing to simply throw over a thousand US down on, assuming I had it to spare, especially not in terms of anime or other 'entertainment' media.
Sigh. Another time. Thanks for the heads up, AS. I'll look at this longingly at least a few more times in the next few months. :)
-Andiyar
... 29800¥. 29800¥!. That's northwards of $250 US for the unwilling-to-convert.
The scary thing is, that's an absolute bargain compared to the actual DVDs, especially if Air in Summer is included. Which... well, I suppose it may be. Does the actual page there say either way?
Yep, or at least it seems to. Well, working on the numbers and Atlas translation anyway. 12 episodes + 2 episodes (Air in Summer) gives you the 14, and then it lists Air Memories (the recap episode) as an extra. So that'll be the lot :)
Now, if I had a blu-ray player, and if there was a way to make it download subtitles from a user-defined location, I could see myself having a very difficult choice to make this November: Which is more important - food or AIR?
AIR, obviously. How could you even ask such a question? :p
*will be buying it* I'll probably hate myself for it afterwards though... but I'm *really* hoping Amazon jp will ship it and really hoping they'll apply their 25% dvd discount to it. If they do that's about $70 shaved off which makes it more reasonable. If not... oh well, it's Air, and at least I haven't already bought the R2 DVDs unlike some people who're buying it. Not planning to get either a bluray player or a HDTV in the near future though >_>
It is pertty save to say that the set is a must buy for any over the edge Air - you just gotta remember that the Kanon shall also make it the blue day. =D
@ Valdra
I'm scarily thinking that will be my reasoning too. I have no plans of buying a blu-ray player in the near, or even not-too-distant future either, but... gah. As I said, it's an absolute bargain compared to the DVDs - at 5000¥ for the standard edition DVDs with (if I'm remembering correctly, and counting Air Memories) eight disks, slightly less than 30000¥ is an insanely good price for AIR, especially since it's a hi-def version.
Dammit. I'm talking myself into this. :S
-Andiyar
@ Valdra
I'm scarily thinking that will be my reasoning too. I have no plans of buying a blu-ray player in the near, or even not-too-distant future either, but... gah. As I said, it's an absolute bargain compared to the DVDs - at 5000¥ for the standard edition DVDs with (if I'm remembering correctly, and counting Air Memories) eight disks, slightly less than 30000¥ is an insanely good price for AIR, especially since it's a hi-def version.
Dammit. I'm talking myself into this. :S
-Andiyar
But don't forget, all the Blue-Ray players out there are still at the $1,000 price range. Even PS3 will have you shelling out over $600 for them.
Like the others said, ￥30,000 is actually a very good deal for the entire set, compared to the ￥35,000+ you'd be paying for all the DVDs combined. However, even for a big Key fan like me, it's a little hard to cough up all those money for this set, especially since I already have all the limited edition DVDs.
Oh, and that BD set will be a "first press limited production", meaning when they're sold out, they're gone...
Oh, and that BD set will be a "first press limited production", meaning when they're sold out, they're gone...
The curse of the first press only strikes again...
Oh well, that's it then. Currently got no versions of Air, should be able to understand them a few years down the line, will definitely be buying a ps3 when the good games start coming out in a few years time, better price and higher quality than the DVDs, and limited production. I say that's pretty good reasoning for me to pay out.
Can't blame anyone who bought the DVDs not wanting to get them though. Y65,000 for one series? Ow. After all this I'm seriously doubting whether I'll be buying the Kanon DVDs - probably best to just wait for the blurays of that too.
andiyar - Well just like DVD players, bluray players are going to drop in price after a while and it's not like you won't be able to watch it at some point. Still, I'd put it this way - if you intended to buy the Air DVDs at any point in the future (learning Japanese or whatever), I say go for it. If not, well, maybe not. If you get it, don't open it and change your mind they'll likely be going for quite a bit though.
@ Valdra & Sushi-Y
Oh, indeed they are a bargain as I stated before, especially when compared to the DVD set. Limited editions... make me cry. Because if it is limited, it makes me want it even more. Damn. :)
As for learning Japanese and then watching Air, I've actually found myself giving a running breakdown of the first three episodes when watching a DVD raw at a friend's house, as I'd just watched various fansub versions that much that I pretty much knew the 'script' by then, as it were. So for Air, I have already somewhat memorised large chunks of the series. Not having subs would be a pain, but not necessarily a tremendous disadvantage.
There are really two major blocks to me buying the set on blu-ray - one being the cost & time delay between me buying it and then being able to watch it - looking at the cost of blu-ray players, I won't be getting one until around 2008, at a guess. How stable is blu-ray media when stored, I wonder. I'd hope it was sufficiently stable, at least. Oh, and then there's the nice issue (incorporated in the first reason still!) of region coding - Japan will be blu-ray region one, if I remember correctly, bundled with the US. But I'm not in the US, being one of those Australian types... where, at the moment, region coding is apparently illegal, due to the way it affects the Fair Trading act. Of course, since we are implementing a version of the DMCA thanks to our majestically intellectual government's 'free trade' agreement with the US, it's possible that region locking will become legal again. What region will we end up - and will bypassing those regions still be easily possible with blu-ray? Or will I have to import a player solely for the reason of playing the AIR disks?
As you can see - problems and costs mounting there. ;)
The other reason I'd hold back is the maybe-kinda-probably not but still hoping possibilty that AIR may yet get a US license, which means I'd still be able to get a very decent version of the show with a translation that doesn't require frequent fansub watching, that I can play on my existing home theatre equipment. Unlikely I know. But hope springs eternal.
That said - I might just see what my VISA status is around October, and make a very difficult decision. ^_^
-Andiyar
@ Valdra & Sushi-Y
Oh, indeed they are a bargain as I stated before, especially when compared to the DVD set. Limited editions... make me cry. Because if it is limited, it makes me want it even more. Damn. :)
Well that's why they do them :( Don't want anyone waiting for the price to go down, do we? ;) I have both the same problems you do though, actually - after years of enjoying being R2 with Japan that'll all be coming to an end, and 2008... well, that's somewhat generous. I'll have a PS3 before I have a HDTV to get the most out of it probably. I don't doubt that some people will find a way to get past region coding though - you know what these people are like, it's a challenge and they'll beat it. I hope they do, anyway, seen as I never buy UK R2 disks so everything I want will be in the US/Japan region. So I don't think region coding's worth worrying about, and the date? Well, if you want to see Air in HD ever, you'll have to buy it now =/ At least, that's what I'm thinking.
As for licensing... well, I wouldn't hold out on that one, but it doesn't hurt to dream. After seeing one of the Air DVDs in action myself I have to say the complaints people make about them are somewhat justified anyway, so I'm hoping that not only will the bluray look better in its HD glory but it'll fix those, too.
Key fandom is a dangerous, dangerous thing.
Key fandom is a dangerous, dangerous thing.
Of course it is, even more so when looking at this..
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8145/taf201vx6.jpg
^___^
@ Valdra
I suppose that's true, at least about the region issue. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure I can eventually pick up a blu-ray drive for whatever computer I'm using at the time, and I'm fairly sure that whatever region locking is built into the firmware will be flashable, much like DVD drives today.
As to the flaws in a possible DVD, I would say that isn't quite valid - as far as I'm aware, whichever company licensed the material would have access to pre-DVD masters, which they would then encode to MPEG-2 themselves, most likely with more skill than Pony Canyon demonstrated in their Air DVDs. Thus the video should be rather better, I doubt very much that a distributor would want to simply demux the MPEG streams, create a new audio track and a subtitle track or two, and remux the resulting mix back together. Admittedly, it's not too hard to do, but then neither is encoding from a master anyway. The blu-ray disks should indeed not have any of these problems... unless, of course, the Pony Canyon encoding team (if it is them) are completely stupid. Or just don't care. :/
Oh, and @ Angelsama
Dammit! You are eroding my forbearance with your images of gratuitously and lasciviously displayed Air. In the perfection of the first natsukage moment.
... don't stop. ^^
-Andiyar
Of course it is, even more so when looking at this..
I wonder if they'll give you that TV if you preorder early...
As to the flaws in a possible DVD, I would say that isn't quite valid - as far as I'm aware, whichever company licensed the material would have access to pre-DVD masters, which they would then encode to MPEG-2 themselves, most likely with more skill than Pony Canyon demonstrated in their Air DVDs. Thus the video should be rather better, I doubt very much that a distributor would want to simply demux the MPEG streams, create a new audio track and a subtitle track or two, and remux the resulting mix back together. Admittedly, it's not too hard to do, but then neither is encoding from a master anyway. The blu-ray disks should indeed not have any of these problems... unless, of course, the Pony Canyon encoding team (if it is them) are completely stupid. Or just don't care. :/
While that's true, years of R1 experience seem to prove otherwise - R2s always seem to end up looking superior. I suppose it would depend on who picked it up though. And yeah, it's Pony Canyon again, and I don't think Air was the first time they messed up. Hopefully they'll do it right this time... it'll at least look better than the fansubs, anyway :)
... don't stop. ^^
Aha, he's out of material now :p Shame there's little chance of a really nice h264 HD trailer for them.
I wonder if they'll give you that TV if you preorder early...
One could seriously have a dream about that one.. >_>
Aha, he's out of material now :p Shame there's little chance of a really nice h264 HD trailer for them.
I'm saying we'll probably get more image/trailers sometime in September, you know just after Kanon Prelude is released~
Apart from the new 3 minutes opening, will there be other new animations/scenes in this edition?
Unless they include a lot of new materials, I will probably skip the Blue-ray set as there are some other goodies which will also be out at the end of this year :( .
Apart from the new 3 minutes opening, will there be other new animations/scenes in this edition?
Something else i wouldn't mind knowing. I'n guessing we'll be told the information once preorders go up on some sites, like Amazon.jp or CDjapan.
Apart from the new 3 minutes opening, will there be other new animations/scenes in this edition?
Unless they include a lot of new materials, I will probably skip the Blue-ray set as there are some other goodies which will also be out at the end of this year :( .
No one knows so far, though I'm sure it'll be posted if it's revealed. All we know now for extras is the opening, lots of extra audio tracks including 5.1 sound, subtitles for the cast interviews and an "illustration gallery". If there was going to be any extra scenes I get the impression they'd have said that as one of the first things revealed :/ But hey, hope I'm wrong.
(ohnoes the double posting)
Looks like amazon japan's put the bluray boxset up now and IS offering its 25% discount (clicky here (http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000H3075S/249-5598123-0587536?v=glance&n=561958&s=gateway) for it), so that's Y7450 less than it should be.
Just thought anyone planning to purchase it would want to know :)
... so now I learn that it has a 5.1 audio track as well as the standard 2.0, and that Amazon JP is selling it for 25% off (assuming I order before the end of August, it appears). I have a difficult four weeks ahead it appears - though I must say, my decision almost appears made for me. With Amazon's discount, assuming this will ship internationally, it will only be costing $200 US. Which is around what I paid for NOIR back in the day, when I was buying single volumes. And I love Air a great deal more than NOIR.
Get thee behind me, Satan, and all that... but I think it's too late. ^_^
[Edited five minutes later]:
And so it is done. Preordered, international expedited shipping. Total cost, ¥23,586. In my currency at home, that's around $260, depending on the exchange rate at the time. So, I figure twenty dollars a week for the next couple of months, and we're set to go.
I'm going to hell. ^_^
-Andiyar
And so it is done. Preordered, international expedited shipping. Total cost, ¥23,586. In my currency at home, that's around $260, depending on the exchange rate at the time. So, I figure twenty dollars a week for the next couple of months, and we're set to go.
I'm going to hell. ^_^
Well, I only managed to hold out for not quite 24 hours from the time I first heard the news...looks like you'll have company. ;)
(ohnoes the double posting)
Looks like amazon japan's put the bluray boxset up now and IS offering its 25% discount (clicky here (http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000H3075S/249-5598123-0587536?v=glance&n=561958&s=gateway) for it), so that's Y7450 less than it should be.
Just thought anyone planning to purchase it would want to know :)
Its also appeared on CDJapan - hoping to preorder pretty soon~
Damn I really wanna order it but don't have the money yet!
Preorders aren't generally charged until they ship - CDJapan charges a 'holding fee' to your credit card, but this is refunded within a few working days if the order does'st ship immediately. Amazon doesn't charge you at all until it ships, so nothing until the end of October.
I normally buy from CDJapan... but Amazon is six thousand yen cheaper, including EMS shipping. So... Amazon it is. ^^
-Andiyar
The thing is - you might as well preorder now with the money.. 'cause they'll probably be sold out by the release date.
The thing is - you might as well preorder now with the money.. 'cause they'll probably be sold out by the release date.
Most likely so -- Amazon recommends placing your preorder by 8/31 to be sure. And when I went back to check that, I noticed that it's currently ranked #82 in DVD sales: that's pretty impressive for something that won't even be available for almost three months, in a new format that not very many people even have a player for yet.
fict_ticious
2006-08-07, 20:47
Which is more important - food or AIR?
I lol'd at this quote.
At any rate, I may have to buy this before getting the bluray player for the fear of having it sold out. Or, I may just settle for the DVD releases. Either way, I won't have a TV which would get the most out of the bluray experience :'(
Nightfall
2006-08-08, 06:07
I'm sorry andiyar, can you explain to me how to preorder? °_° Sadly i don't speak Japanese yet (though i'm planning to learn it soon).
Thanks :D
P.S. Dont mind. I noticed now the "Want to see this page in english?" button.
I'm a dumbass.
I just got off the phone to say I have an job starting for me on Monday (been out of work for 7 months so I'm really happy right now!) So yeah I'll preorder mine now as well! :D
For those who don't already know this, if you're planning on preordering the Blu-ray box set at amazon.co.jp, you're out of luck. They took the page out of their site, and for a time had "This item is currently not available" displayed. The other option at the moment is CDJapan, but you'll have to pay about $250 dollars instead of the $200 on Amazon Japan.
As for me, I've already made my preorder, despite me not having a Blu-ray player yet. I plan on seeing how things go in the Fall with more players and movies for Blu-ray coming out before I decide on which player I want.
For those who don't already know this, if you're planning on preordering the Blu-ray box set at amazon.co.jp, you're out of luck. They took the page out of their site, and for a time had "This item is currently not available" displayed. The other option at the moment is CDJapan, but you'll have to pay about $250 dollars instead of the $200 on Amazon Japan.
As for me, I've already made my preorder, despite me not having a Blu-ray player yet. I plan on seeing how things go in the Fall with more players and movies for Blu-ray coming out before I decide on which player I want.
WTF?! So much for end of August :( God I hate not having a credit card.
WTF?! So much for end of August :( God I hate not having a credit card.
It looks like you're gonna have to go with CDJapan~
I was planning on doing my preorder at the end of this month, but i have a feeling even thats going to be to late. ;_;
Heh. I'm just hoping I'll be able to afford the cost of mine come October. Considering a few other things I have happening around then, including pretty much the only con I can actually attend here in AU, the financial cupboard might be a bit barer than I would like.
Still. Air. ^_^
-Andiyar
Heh. I'm just hoping I'll be able to afford the cost of mine come October. Considering a few other things I have happening around then, including pretty much the only con I can actually attend here in AU, the financial cupboard might be a bit barer than I would like.
Still. Air. ^_^
-Andiyar
I'll happily pay you for it and take that one if you like ;)
Still, sent YesAsia an email asking nicely if they could stock it, otherwise I'm just going to have to pray I can get a credit card before CDJapan runs out of stock too.
Well people, looks like Amazon.co.jp has the Blu-ray item back up again (http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000H3075S/ref=pd_rhf_p_1/503-9350035-3408719?ie=UTF8). If you haven't already, be sure to preorder it before you miss your chance again. :)
Well people, looks like Amazon.co.jp has the Blu-ray item back up again (http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B000H3075S/ref=pd_rhf_p_1/503-9350035-3408719?ie=UTF8). If you haven't already, be sure to preorder it before you miss your chance again. :)
Thanks for the news :)
...now, what's the chance I'll be able to get the rest of my uni details to apply for a credit card, and get it, and order all by 31st August? Ugh.
@ Valdra
Hrm. If you can, just place an order using any payment method possible - Amazon accepts bank transfers and such, doesn't it? You can easily go in and edit the payment method after the order is placed, so the important thing would be to get an order actually in their system, then apply for a credit card / VISA debit card or something similar.
From reading Amazon's web site - the one to go with is 'Convenience Store/ATM...' payment. Sounds like they accept the order, and then send you an invoice when the item is ready to ship, and then you pay it. I have no idea if your bank supports the relevant Internet Banking payment... but it doesn't matter, if gives you two months to find another way. ^_^
-Andiyar
Hrm. If you can, just place an order using any payment method possible - Amazon accepts bank transfers and such, doesn't it? You can easily go in and edit the payment method after the order is placed, so the important thing would be to get an order actually in their system, then apply for a credit card / VISA debit card or something similar.
From reading Amazon's web site - the one to go with is 'Convenience Store/ATM...' payment. Sounds like they accept the order, and then send you an invoice when the item is ready to ship, and then you pay it. I have no idea if your bank supports the relevant Internet Banking payment... but it doesn't matter, if gives you two months to find another way. ^_^...I never would've thought of that. Put the order in now and it hasn't asked for any other details, and changing looks easy enough. Makes sense for it to work too especially seen as it says there about changing card expiry dates and stuff. Should have my card within a few weeks too, hopefully.
Well, looks like I might get one after all :) Thanks so much.
Hate to burst some people's bubbles, but apparently the BD set is just an upconverted version of the SD masters, with the new OP being the only thing that's in HD.
Source: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060818/pony.htm
Now granted, there will probably be less compression artifacts in the BD release because Pony Canyon is throwing more bitrate at the same amount of information, but I'm not paying $200+ for something that's only marginally better than my R2 set.
Confirmed on the official AIR site here (http://anime.powerbean.jp/AIR/info/blue.html). Although they claim that there will be a 'difference' to normal upscaling due to some new algorithm.... this really, really disappoints me. I am now wondering if I should really bother - though admittedly I don't have the R2, so it's a 'first time buy' for me. What I'm wondering is why Pony Canyon aren't using a better master for this... surely KyoAni could provide a true HD master?
-Andiyar
...haha, maybe that's why Amazon got it back in stock again. Sudden influx of cancelling.
Don't pretend to get all this stuff about SD Masters and whatnot, but it's a bit of a disappointment. Still, at half the price of the R2s (some of which are really hard to get now anyway) and with the fact it will be higher quality, even if it's not by as much as I hoped, I'm still going to order it. Besides, a bluray player will probably hit me before enough Japanese fluency to watch the episodes on their own does, and I don't want to touch DVDSubber ever again. It'll just make the loss easier if I don't get it.
Shame the LE DVDs are so pretty though.
Okay. Well, Standard Definition and High Definition are referring to the quality of the masters that the disks are encoded from, and to the final quality of the video on the disks. The primary thing to consider here is pixel resolution - AIR is a show broadcast in an aspect ratio of 16:9. In standard definition, this means the picture is 720 pixels wide by 480 pixels high - this is considered standard for NTSC television and DVD. (For PAL the height is instead 576 pixels, and there's a lot of fun involving FPS etc. Let's not go there tonight ^_^). In high definition, as Blu-ray is meant to be and as you'd expect a Blu-ray version of AIR to be, the resolution is somewhat higher. The minimum resolution for high definition is 1280 pixels wide by 720 pixels high, with progressive scan - this is referred to as 720p HD video. HD also refers to 1080i and 1080p video - which are interlaced and progressive scan, respecively, and boast a resolution of 1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high.
Additionally, HD video allows a far higher bitrate than SD video - basically (though perhaps not perfectly accurate...) the more bitrate, the better, at least assuming we're using masters and codecs that will benefit from the increased bitrate.
I've 'pinched' a chart from Wikipedia that might help illustrate what I'm talking about with resolution at any rate:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Resolution_chart.png
Okay, so ignoring the blue stuff on the right (We shouldn't but for the sake of this we will) the original source for the AIR disks on Blu-ray will be the yellow bit on the chart, plus the little orange bit on the left - where it says 480p - in terms of screen resolution. A true HD master would be either the dark orange part (720p) or the red part (1080p). As you can see, the image size is enormously increased, and in terms of HD video, the greater the resolution, the better the quality.
What they've announced they are doing with the AIR masters is taking a 480i/p image and upscaling it to (assumedly) 720p, that is encoding the master to a higher resolution than it was originally intended to be seen in. And they've said this will look great etc etc, but... it's still a 480i/p master. Basically, they're cheating and not actually providing real high definition video for this AIR set. Which is very disappointing, considering that Blu-ray is intended as a high definition format.
As to the cancellation of preorders... you know, i wouldn't be incredibly surprised. Imagine, you're a Japanese fan who has bought the LE R2s, and has snapped up a Blu-ray player (or will be snapping up a PS3) for your high-def anime fix. AIR is coming out, so naturally you'll get another copy - hey, it's AIR, and it's HD! Oh wait... it's not really. It's in fact the same, but altered slightly so it might look, oh, 10% better. Give or take. And it's another 300,000 yen, after you've already dropped 7000 yen per volume for seven volumes.
I can see my reaction right there. And I'm wondering now too - the bitrate is reported to be averaging around 40mbps, which is very nice, should eliminate those issues Pony Canyon had with compression artifacts in the original releases, which I've heard were a bit poorly mastered - insufficient bitrate, perhaps. So that's fine... but the lack of a proper HD master, meaning upscaling causing possible problems in itself?
I may need to rethink this. If I'm paying for a PS3 or Blu-ray player, I'm looking for fantastic video. Not for 'hey, somewhat better than DVD!' video.
-Andiyar
I wonder if an HD master even exists? BS-i also broadcast an upsampled SD version...maybe that's all that was produced, since it would have been adequate for broadcast and DVD release. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray still over a year away at the time, perhaps KyoAni judged that it wasn't worth the time and expense to render an HD version as well? I can see that being the case, but I'm still disappointed that they aren't giving us a true HD version now that suitable media formats are available. Time and money again, I suppose...
I wonder if an HD master even exists? BS-i also broadcast an upsampled SD version...maybe that's all that was produced, since it would have been adequate for broadcast and DVD release. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray still over a year away at the time, perhaps KyoAni judged that it wasn't worth the time and expense to render an HD version as well? I can see that being the case, but I'm still disappointed that they aren't giving us a true HD version now that suitable media formats are available. Time and money again, I suppose...
I don't know if a HD master exists, but the backgrounds they used (painted by AniVillage) were definitely higher quality than SD.
...haha, maybe that's why Amazon got it back in stock again. Sudden influx of cancelling.
Funny.. i never thought of it that way. ^^;;
Just maybe now i can give it a while before i preorder on CDJapan.
As for the news, well i'm not that happy about it - i am having the thought of buying the LE dvd's instead, at least that way i'll be able to watch them, and not need to buy a Blu-ray player.
Got a lot of thinking ahead of me.. ;_;
I'm sure lots of people are reacting the same way a poster on 2ch neatly described:
My summer is... over.
Do you think they're gonna lose quiet a few sales 'cause of this?
I dunno, i just have more reason now to track down the LE DVD's. At least that way i'll be able to watch them straight away as they arrive. The BD collection is of course.. still very tempting.
i think they should have english sub in it. then the sales would actually double.
I think you are overestimating... How many English speaking fans would you expect to shell out $200-$300 for a series?
Oh well, I think I'll wait for the Kanon HiDef release, as it is actually being produced in HD.
"A series" is one thing, Air is something else... :D
Rengemaru
2006-08-25, 06:38
Personaly I was considering buying the Blu-ray edition of AIR but since I still don't know Japanese and chances that getting an English sub are slim, I dropped the idea and planned on buying a DS lite >.>;
houkoholic
2006-08-28, 03:09
It's not worth buying, the difference is marginal at best. Throwing more bitrates doesn't automatically make it better when the studio in question still doesn't know how to optimise the encoding process.
Plus I don't want to support Blu-ray when it is pretty clear that at this moment in time Blu-ray technology is still a lot of empty promises which has yet to delivered (50G movie disks, h264 encoding etc) and is just trying to make money off ignorant people.
@ houkoholic
On the one hand (assuming you've bought the LE/other DVDs) I am in complete agreement. However, for those of us who have yet to buy Air in any form, I suggest you look hard at the comparative pricing. True, this presupposes that such of us will be buying a Blu-ray player. But, if you think that the anime industry, both R2 & R1 (for the current regions) won't adopt HD, well... think again. :)
Personally, I have every intention of getting a Blu-ray drive for my computer, simply because of the backup potential. No, I won't be buying one until media and drives are at a more suitable price point. But then, that's what I said for DVDs as well, and I picked up an external DVD burner for my laptop a year or two ago (16x RW-DL) and can now buy disks for what, fifty cents each Australian. Blu-ray will hit that point too, you can count on it. It'll just be a matter of time.
Oh, and in reference again to the pricing - Air on Blu-ray (for slightly better video, box set) is costing ~¥30000. Air on DVD (without the pretty art box, nor the 'extra HD footage') was ¥5700 or so for the limited editions. Multiply that out, and you'll see the 'saving' inherent here.
Admittedly, I can see that people with the DVDs would have effectively no reason to buy AIR on Blu-ray without a proper HD encode. But, for those of us who don't yet have it, and who fully intend to invest in Blu-ray in the not too distant future - well, from that perspective, it's not a bad idea. :)
-Andiyar
houkoholic
2006-08-28, 10:58
andiyar
I know anime is going HD just like all other shows, but that is not a reason to blindly support BR IMNSHO. Especially after seeing BR demos like AIR, GitS etc at the Tokyo Anime Festival in person I definitely do not see the cost/benefit in becoming an early adopter and supporter of BR.
I also know perfectly well that the BR set is cheaper than the DVD collection, but I'm just not willing to support BR due to the reasons I've stated in my previous post. I do not want half-ass beta-like products to get my money and win market share (and in turn the format war) period. Currently all reviews points to HD-DVD being the superior (better and more efficient VC-1 codec vs mpeg2 on BR, and more space with dual-layer 30G vs 25G BR disk) AND being a cheaper format (cheaper player at almost half the price) to support, and I really wish anime companies would try to release their contents on the (currently) cheaper and (currently) better HD-DVD and that's the stance I'm going to take - by not buying any BR product until they can show to me that it is the superior format which they have been preaching and not the other way around. Until then, I'll stick with DVD and my up-converting DVD player.
I know anime is going HD just like all other shows, but that is not a reason to blindly support BR IMNSHO. Especially after seeing BR demos like AIR, GitS etc at the Tokyo Anime Festival in person I definitely do not see the cost/benefit in becoming an early adopter and supporter of BR.
Points granted. I don't 'blindly' support Blu-ray, I support it rather less than blindly - but most definitely not in an early adopter sense. I won't be getting any Blu-ray hardware until sometime in 2007 at the earliest.
I also know perfectly well that the BR set is cheaper than the DVD collection, but I'm just not willing to support BR due to the reasons I've stated in my previous post. I do not want half-ass beta-like products to get my money and win market share (and in turn the format war) period.
Which is fair enough. However, in regards to your previous posting (about the lack of 50GB disks and the lack of H.264 support)
• VC-1, which you're citing as better and more efficient, is in no way AVC. VC-1 should never have happened. It's only included in the HD spec of both formats (yes, it's in both) in order to have Microsoft on board, as they kicked up as stink... wow, nearly two years ago? about the lack of a WMV-based codec in the HD selection. And, since my opinion of WMV is, oh, very very low, I could care less about a lack of VC-1. Now, a lack of AVC support... that would make me rather irate. But neither Blu-ray nor HD-DVD lack AVC.
• 50GB disks are definitely available. In movie format? I'm not sure as of yet, so I'll grant you that. But looking back at the launch of DVD - how long was it before dual-layer DVD's became available at all, let alone widespread? It definitely took a while. And Sony is shipping DL-Blu-ray media right now. If they can provide it to the home market, I'd be rather surprised if the studios/content producers can't get their hands on it.
Currently all reviews points to HD-DVD being the superior (better and more efficient VC-1 codec vs mpeg2 on BR, and more space with dual-layer 30G vs 25G BR disk) AND being a cheaper format (cheaper player at almost half the price) to support, and I really wish anime companies would try to release their contents on the (currently) cheaper and (currently) better HD-DVD and that's the stance I'm going to take - by not buying any BR product until they can show to me that it is the superior format which they have been preaching and not the other way around. Until then, I'll stick with DVD and my up-converting DVD player.
I'm actually curious here, as a search and a memory think (~_^) can't turn up the answer: are any HD titles (HD-DVD specifically) authored in VC-1/AVC yet? As in available market titles, not upcomings or demoes? I honestly can't remember. I'm sure that Blu-ray isn't yet, I seem to recall that the disks released so far have been MPEG-2. Which is quite capable of doing HD video, it just requires a great deal more disk space. I assume that a proper encode set will be released in the near future, unless Sony really are trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The current player lineup and its cost, as you have touched on, aren't exactly reassuring.
But then, as I stated earlier, I'm not specifically an early adopter. Yes, I'm buying Air on Blu-ray (unless I change my mind vis-a-vis the HD issue - in either sense, I'll pick up Kanon HD, which I'll bet will be Blu-ray, not HD-DVD), so in that sense I'll be buying a Blu-ray device of some kind. Which kind? As I mentioned before, guaranteed I'll buy a Blu-ray burner for my computer. And that's a point in Blu-ray's favour, every single large computer manufacturer is currently in the BDA. Will that help Blu-ray in the home entertainment space?
Perhaps. It's more likely for those who watch their movies on their computers to want to be able to watch them on the TV too, I'd guess. Especially if Sony does manage to pull a nice trick with the PS3, which is a somewhat chancy issue. But there'll be, in the not-too-distant future, millions of PCs shipping with Blu-ray burners built in. And that comes down to how I see Blu-ray at the moment - I view it primarily as a data storage/backup medium, with the added bonus of being able to play HD content with it. In that regard, it's superior to HD-DVD.
*shrug*. Your mileage may vary. But I'll be buying Air on Blu-ray in October, simply because I will be Blu-ray capable at some point in the near future, and as such, it makes sense for me to buy it in this format rather than pay the extra hundred thousand odd yen for the R2 DVDs.
-Andiyar
houkoholic
2006-08-29, 05:06
• VC-1, which you're citing as better and more efficient, is in no way AVC. VC-1 should never have happened. It's only included in the HD spec of both formats (yes, it's in both) in order to have Microsoft on board, as they kicked up as stink... wow, nearly two years ago? about the lack of a WMV-based codec in the HD selection. And, since my opinion of WMV is, oh, very very low, I could care less about a lack of VC-1. Now, a lack of AVC support... that would make me rather irate. But neither Blu-ray nor HD-DVD lack AVC.
Well except for the whole "Microsoft is EVIL DRM" thing, HD video done in WMV is actually very very nice. I was surprised how much better looking HD video is compressed in WMV as compared with say, DivX. For example, videos avaiable via XBox Live for the XBox 360 are done in WMV, and they do look very good.
• 50GB disks are definitely available. In movie format? I'm not sure as of yet, so I'll grant you that.
Dual layer 50GB BD-R are available, but dual layer BD movie disk are not. Sounds silly I know since you would expect pressing ROM disks will be easier than making writable disk, but that's actually how it is right now.
But looking back at the launch of DVD - how long was it before dual-layer DVD's became available at all, let alone widespread? It definitely took a while. And Sony is shipping DL-Blu-ray media right now. If they can provide it to the home market, I'd be rather surprised if the studios/content producers can't get their hands on it.
Yes, but at that time DVD wasn't trying to win a format war.
My beef is that Sony is using "but our format is *going* to be better" tactic to stomp out the other format while not actually delivering what it claims it can do *as of this current moment*, whereas something better is actually available right now. It would be a real shame when something better and cheaper loses out because of empty promises which they may or may not deliever in the future. I mean I don't see how greedy companies would have any incentive to produce better products when there is no competition in the market place. On the same token and hypothetically speaking, if Blu-Ray wins on hype alone, I don't see them moving onto dual-layers and new codecs anytime soon, just like how Sony came out and said mpeg2 is good enough.
I'm actually curious here, as a search and a memory think (~_^) can't turn up the answer: are any HD titles (HD-DVD specifically) authored in VC-1/AVC yet? As in available market titles, not upcomings or demoes? I honestly can't remember. I'm sure that Blu-ray isn't yet, I seem to recall that the disks released so far have been MPEG-2. Which is quite capable of doing HD video, it just requires a great deal more disk space. I assume that a proper encode set will be released in the near future, unless Sony really are trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The current player lineup and its cost, as you have touched on, aren't exactly reassuring.
And this is the real kicker. Currently all HD-DVD titles are encoded in VC-1, whereas BR are all done in mpeg2. The majority of these HD-DVD titles are also released on dual layer 30G disks, whereas BR are still on single 25G disks, so HD-DVD right now actually has both a more efficient codec AND more space compared with BR releases. This is entirely the reason why all video reviews comparing the same title released on HD-DVD and BR has HD-DVD coming out on top in the video quality department. BR really needs to deliever on their promise of AVC/h.264 and dual layer very soon for movie releases to conivince me that it is indeed not just relying on hyped specs to win the format war.
But then, as I stated earlier, I'm not specifically an early adopter. Yes, I'm buying Air on Blu-ray (unless I change my mind vis-a-vis the HD issue - in either sense, I'll pick up Kanon HD, which I'll bet will be Blu-ray, not HD-DVD), so in that sense I'll be buying a Blu-ray device of some kind. Which kind? As I mentioned before, guaranteed I'll buy a Blu-ray burner for my computer. And that's a point in Blu-ray's favour, every single large computer manufacturer is currently in the BDA. Will that help Blu-ray in the home entertainment space?
I really hope that won't be the case. IMO the storage angle should be separated from the movie format angle. I want HD content be released on the format which is better suited to deliver it at the right cost and quality, and as I pointed out now, HD-DVD is the way to go.
Currently I really wish that Kanon will get the HD-DVD treatment due to the reasons I've already stated, because I'm seeking for the best quality possible to watch these shows. Unless, again if BR delievers on their promised spec of dual-layer AVC, but that is just still a big "if" and "when".
Perhaps. It's more likely for those who watch their movies on their computers to want to be able to watch them on the TV too, I'd guess. Especially if Sony does manage to pull a nice trick with the PS3, which is a somewhat chancy issue. But there'll be, in the not-too-distant future, millions of PCs shipping with Blu-ray burners built in. And that comes down to how I see Blu-ray at the moment - I view it primarily as a data storage/backup medium, with the added bonus of being able to play HD content with it. In that regard, it's superior to HD-DVD.
My reasoning is exactly the opposite because I'm viewing it from purely the HD content angle. Hence my complete opposite stance from you. :) Though I completely understand where you're coming from and I respect that.
*shrug*. Your mileage may vary. But I'll be buying Air on Blu-ray in October, simply because I will be Blu-ray capable at some point in the near future, and as such, it makes sense for me to buy it in this format rather than pay the extra hundred thousand odd yen for the R2 DVDs.
I love AIR, and I'm perfectly willing and financially capable and ready to double dipping on BR AIR if it comes to it. It's just that BR as a movie format cannot convience me to do so right now and I'm voting with my wallet. As I said, not going to buy beta-like products. :)
@ houkoholic
I completely understand where you're coming from. Thanks for a very cohesive and well articulated response, 'tis always a pleasure to read them. And as I hope you've gathered, I'm not exactly happy with Sony's treatment of the Blu-ray medium either. I see potential there, and I wish they'd follow through with it. In terms of data storage and such (which is the kicker for me at this point), sure, they've got something going. In terms of HD video?
Wait and see is the approach I too would nominally recommend. Depending on the personal situation, of course. :)
Interesting to note as well has been Sony's reactions (and lack thereof) to the HD 'revolution', especially in regards to MPEG2vs VC-1/AVC (oh, and for the record, it's not so much a generic Microsoft-DRM-Evil-Empire hate for me, it's more the way they pushed it... and the bad experiences I've had with WMV in general in the past). Yep, sure, MPEG-2 can look damn good. But the kicker is, of course, that AVC/VC-1 can look just as good, if not better... with a hell of a lot less bitrate/storage. This might not be an issue to a lot of consumers, sadly, as quality is often a neglected thing - look at the way people treat HDTV, for instance, with many consumers apparently unable to see much of a difference, if at all, between 720p & 1080; not to mention the online music stores of the iTMS et al distributing horribly compressed music that makes me cringe, yet most people are perfectly fine with...
I suppose, as with most things, the voting with your wallet as you are doing is the way to go. I'm still hoping for a Blu-ray/HD-DVD combo drive at some point that is also an upscaling DVD player. Otherwise? Well, go with what I need most. :)
-Andiyar
Dual layer 50GB BD-R are available, but dual layer BD movie disk are not. Sounds silly I know since you would expect pressing ROM disks will be easier than making writable disk, but that's actually how it is right now.
Um... what?
The AIR BD set comes on 50GB dual layer BluRay discs, you know.
houkoholic
2006-08-29, 07:27
Um... what?
The AIR BD set comes on 50GB dual layer BluRay discs, you know.
Where's the source?
AIR BD doesn't come out until November 1st, until I see physical proof that they're dual layer BD, it doesn't exists *as of now*.
EDIT: After googling, the only place which I saw the mention of dual layer 50G is amazon jp. I do not see such mention of 50G disk on the AIR official site, Pony Canyon or any other news such as Impress Watch and online vender's site. Needless to say I'm very skeptical at this point
Where's the source?
AIR BD doesn't come out until November 1st, until I see physical proof that they're dual layer BD, it doesn't exists *as of now*.
Source: Amazon site (http://www.amazon.co.jp/AIR-Box-R1dVde%9650%5b9au1fu23-Blu-ray-Disc/dp/B000H3075S/)
2層の50GBという大容量は、コンパクトかつスタイリッシュなパッケージングを実現。
By the way, the text Amazon uses is from the manufacturer, so unless the manufacturer is purposefully trying to deceive you, I'd say they're dual layer discs. Of course it doesn't exist at the exact precise moment I'm writing this post, because it has yet to start shipping.
EDIT: The main AIR site does claim average 40Mbps for the main feature. Assuming each episode is 25 minutes, we get 14*25*60*40,000,000/8 = 105GB. The main features are contained on 3 discs, and hence, we get approximately 35 GB per disc, which would not fit on a single layer disc.
houkoholic
2006-08-29, 07:53
Source: Amazon site (http://www.amazon.co.jp/AIR-Box-R1dVde%9650%5b9au1fu23-Blu-ray-Disc/dp/B000H3075S/)
By the way, the text Amazon uses is from the manufacturer, so unless the manufacturer is purposefully trying to deceive you, I'd say they're dual layer discs. Of course it doesn't exist at the exact precise moment I'm writing this post, because it has yet to start shipping.
Or you know maybe Amazon made a mistake?
Like I said, I can't even find a mention of 50G disk on Pony Canyon's site itself, you can't find BD AIR in their November release line-up and heck punching in the disk code doesn't even bring up a product hit. Likewise all other reputable online venders does not mention this at all. I'm not convince that this one and only one source is proof that it is indeed 50G. Unless you're saying that Amazon is so special that they're the only one who have access to manufacturer text while nobody else has.
Eitherway It's even more disappointing if they have 50G to work with and still come up not much better than the DVD as I've seen and other Japanese people can attest to, just further proves the format is not mature enough to support.
Or you know maybe Amazon made a mistake?
Like I said, I can't even find a mention of 50G disk on Pony Canyon's site itself, you can't find BD AIR in their November release line-up and heck punching in the disk code doesn't even bring up a product hit. Likewise all other reputable online venders does not mention this at all. I'm not convince that this one and only one source is proof that it is indeed 50G. Unless you're saying that Amazon is so special that they're the only one who have access to manufacturer text while nobody else has.
So are you saying the main AIR website made a mistake? According to my calculations in my previous post, you can't fit 40Mbps average bitrate for 14 episodes onto 3 single-layer discs.
Eitherway It's even more disappointing if they have 50G to work with and still come up not much better than the DVD as I've seen and other Japanese people can attest to, just further proves the format is not mature enough to support.
Not really, it just proves that we don't have sufficiently large amounts of high definition materials yet, not that the format isn't mature enough. You're confusing information and the storage medium. It's like saying that 500GB hard discs are not a mature format because hardly anyone has managed to fill them up properly. Unless, by format you mean high definition animation in general. I, for one, would be looking forward to seeing high definition disc releases of theatrical features, which would have the proper high resolution materials.
houkoholic
2006-08-29, 08:35
So are you saying the main AIR website made a mistake? According to my calculations in my previous post, you can't fit 40Mbps average bitrate for 14 episodes onto 3 single-layer discs.
Actually it could very be as I just found this interesting piece on impress watch which exactly addressed the dual layer issue in a BD conference which took place today.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060829/bd1.htm
Matsushita's storage device specalist who is the technical spokesman respresenting the group specifically said that dual layer ROM disk should appear on the market at around Christmas, this goes in direct conflict with the AIR BD box release date of November 1st. More interesting is that Yokujin Densyokai, the group which sponsers and produces AIR AND Pony Canyon were part of the conference but does not correct such a statement.
So either:
1) BD AIR will be delayed till Christmas, if the Christmas release claim is true.
2) AIR official site's claim is false and just PR gimmick, if the Christmas release claim is the truth.
3) Matsushita's own spokesman was wrong and made a balant mistake.
Either way you take it, if you look at the overall picture with all these conflicting reports and claims, it certainty doesn't introuduce any consumer confidence.
*EDIT* Looks like 1 is the case. BD AIR is officially delayed for one month because of "technical issues"
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060829/pony.htm
Not really, it just proves that we don't have sufficiently large amounts of high definition materials yet, not that the format isn't mature enough. You're confusing information and the storage medium. Unless, by format you mean high definition animation in general.
No because I'm just talking about AIR and just AIR alone. AIR broadcasted on BS-i (which is an HD broadcast) was absolutely amazing and blows the DVD away anyday, and if what the BR camp is claiming is true, then BD AIR should look just as good if not better. Yet it is not the case and it just looks barely better than DVD as reported by many Japanese fans and confirmed by myself personally. So one has to question why this is so if free-to-air BS-i running on terrestrial airwaves working on less bandwidth can get it to look absolutely amazing but why a supposedly commerical source to be put on BD can't get it right. Something has to be wrong somewhere and right now it looks like it's the tools for BD, whether it is authoring tools or the players or the manufacturing process, are the ones to blame, and this is exactly the sign of an immature format.
No because I'm just talking about AIR and just AIR alone. AIR broadcasted on BS-i (which is an HD broadcast) was absolutely amazing and blows the DVD away anyday, and if what the BR camp is claiming is true, then BD AIR should look just as good if not better. Yet it is not the case and it just looks barely better than DVD as reported by many Japanese fans and confirmed by myself personally. So one has to question why this is so if free-to-air BS-i running on terrestrial airwaves working on less bandwidth can get it to look absolutely amazing but why a supposedly commerical source to be put on BD can't get it right. Something has to be wrong somewhere and right now it looks like it's the tools for BD, whether it is authoring tools or the players or the manufacturing process, are the ones to blame, and this is exactly the sign of an immature format.
I have the DVDs. The "high definition" broadcast didn't appear to have any more details than a properly upscaled image from the DVD. Furthermore, any encode of the broadcast was suffering from color problems. And if I remember correctly, AIR BD was to be encoded using MPEG2, which is a very mature codec, and is the same codec used by high definition digital television. The only reason you'd have aliasing like that in the final image would be through upsampling of a lower resolution source (e.g. a standard definition source).
houkoholic
2006-08-30, 03:09
I have the DVDs. The "high definition" broadcast didn't appear to have any more details than a properly upscaled image from the DVD. Furthermore, any encode of the broadcast was suffering from color problems. And if I remember correctly, AIR BD was to be encoded using MPEG2, which is a very mature codec, and is the same codec used by high definition digital television. The only reason you'd have aliasing like that in the final image would be through upsampling of a lower resolution source (e.g. a standard definition source).
The AIR DVD was known to have compression issues to begin with. That was the reason people were excited about the BD release in the first place, in hope that it fixes these problems.
Also let me guess, did you by any chance obtained the HD source off the internet, which obviously had gone through another compression process which would degrade the picture quality? Because off the air BS-i AIR was really quite a fair bit nicer than the DVD if you watch it as it was, SD source up-converted or not, it was done well. This was the reason that the Japanese fans were disappointed about the BD AIR because most agreed that it looked barely better than the DVD.
Yes, BD AIR would be encoded in MPEG2, which is a mature codec, but what about the other parts of the equation I've mentioned which also factors into the overall maturity of the format - the players and the manufacturing process, both are being held up right now (as evident by the BR group having to hold a conference to instill consumer confidence that they're on target on delivering what they promised). No matter how you try to spin it, the fact of the matter is that BD has only been out for a few months as players only just began to hit the streets, plus the first of these players are riddled with hardware problems, it is an immature format and there is no arguments you can make against this fact.
The AIR DVD was known to have compression issues to begin with. That was the reason people were excited about the BD release in the first place, in hope that it fixes these problems.
Yeah, poor Misuzu's forehead ;_;
Also let me guess, did you by any chance obtained the HD source off the internet, which obviously had gone through another compression process which would degrade the picture quality? Because off the air BS-i AIR was really quite a fair bit nicer than the DVD if you watch it as it was, SD source up-converted or not, it was done well. This was the reason that the Japanese fans were disappointed about the BD AIR because most agreed that it looked barely better than the DVD.
Yes, I was watching that rip on the internet, so I can not say for sure exactly what the BS-i stream was like. See, now we are at an impasse. Unless someone can obtain the original MPEG2 stream on which AIR was broadcast and rip a frame out of it and compare it with a frame on the DVD on a high quality monitor, we wouldn't be able to tell which was better quantitatively.
Now, when you said that the BS-i version was a ton better than the DVD version, I had thought you meant that the BS-i version was from some mysterious HD source. Even a bad rip of that would've captured at least some (albeit noisy) detail from the HD that wasn't in the DVD release. However, if it was from a SD upconvert, the bad rip would then probably look poorer than the DVD, due to the fact that the bad rip of the upconvert would be travelling through 2 lossy channels (BS-i, ripper), while the DVD would be travelling through only 1 lossy channel (DVD encode). If the original source were HD, the DVD would've traveled through two lossy channels (downconvert, DVD encode). Furthermore, if the original source were only SD, then of course BS-i would have a much better time fitting the same material onto a bitstream more than twice as wide (assuming 20Mbit stream for BS-i).
Yes, BD AIR would be encoded in MPEG2, which is a mature codec, but what about the other parts of the equation I've mentioned which also factors into the overall maturity of the format - the players and the manufacturing process, both are being held up right now (as evident by the BR group having to hold a conference to instill consumer confidence that they're on target on delivering what they promised). No matter how you try to spin it, the fact of the matter is that BD has only been out for a few months as players only just began to hit the streets, plus the first of these players are riddled with hardware problems, it is an immature format and there is no arguments you can make against this fact.
The whole discussion seemed to have been focused on picture quality/storage size from the way it was going, so I did not realize you are now thinking of other problems with BluRay. I agree that there are problems with BluRay in terms of actual logistics, but that's not what we were arguing here. As BD is a digital format, a physical manufacturing process and/or authoring process should have little to nothing to do with the quality of the video stream, as long as the video stream is correctly etched onto the disc, bit by bit. Thus, the only reason AIR BD would look terrible would be in the video encoding chain, and thus it's either 1) the source, 2) the upconverter or 3) the MPEG2 encoder. The only part that actually is part of the BluRay spec would be the MPEG2 encoder. The rest has nothing to do with BluRay itself, and would've been the same had it been HD-DVD.
houkoholic
2006-08-30, 23:07
Now, when you said that the BS-i version was a ton better than the DVD version, I had thought you meant that the BS-i version was from some mysterious HD source. Even a bad rip of that would've captured at least some (albeit noisy) detail from the HD that wasn't in the DVD release. However, if it was from a SD upconvert, the bad rip would then probably look poorer than the DVD, due to the fact that the bad rip of the upconvert would be travelling through 2 lossy channels (BS-i, ripper), while the DVD would be travelling through only 1 lossy channel (DVD encode). If the original source were HD, the DVD would've traveled through two lossy channels (downconvert, DVD encode). Furthermore, if the original source were only SD, then of course BS-i would have a much better time fitting the same material onto a bitstream more than twice as wide (assuming 20Mbit stream for BS-i).
I doubt there was actually a HD source, otherwise you would think that BD AIR would have used it instead of upconverting from a SD source, no?
You've pointed out why the BS-i broadcast looks better than DVD, and by the same argument, BD AIR should at the very least look just as good as the BS-i broadcast assuming that 1) they use the same source (which is very likely) and upconverted it correctly 2) BD has a higher bitrate and more bandwidth to work with. But the result is contrary according to reports, with BD AIR sitting somewhere inbetween the BS-i and DVD.
The whole discussion seemed to have been focused on picture quality/storage size from the way it was going, so I did not realize you are now thinking of other problems with BluRay. I agree that there are problems with BluRay in terms of actual logistics, but that's not what we were arguing here. As BD is a digital format, a physical manufacturing process and/or authoring process should have little to nothing to do with the quality of the video stream, as long as the video stream is correctly etched onto the disc, bit by bit. Thus, the only reason AIR BD would look terrible would be in the video encoding chain, and thus it's either 1) the source, 2) the upconverter or 3) the MPEG2 encoder. The only part that actually is part of the BluRay spec would be the MPEG2 encoder. The rest has nothing to do with BluRay itself, and would've been the same had it been HD-DVD.
I guess I should elaborate on the complaints towards BD AIR. While the aliasing artifacts is and can be attributed to upscaling, there are also instances where pixelisation is occuring in various high motion scenes. The most obvious of this is when during the opening scene where Mizusu is spinning around, the the DVD version pixelation was very obviously occuring for the whole of Mizusu's character while the BS-i version don't have this issue, so this shouldn't be a converting issue but rather a bitrate issue. When I was looking at BD AIR I specifically paid attention to this scene and the stream they were showing had pixelisation in it (though yes, not as bad as the DVD), while it may be just due to that stream being poorly encoded, it's not exactly encouraging when you supposedly have 40M/bits to throw at the process (actually they even showed the bitrate bar and it clocks at 40M/bits) and still have such simple compression artifacts.
Also don't forget that there's also the *decoding* chain where image degration can occur. Not all signal processors are made equal.
You've pointed out why the BS-i broadcast looks better than DVD, and by the same argument, BD AIR should at the very least look just as good as the BS-i broadcast assuming that 1) they use the same source (which is very likely) and upconverted it correctly 2) BD has a higher bitrate and more bandwidth to work with. But the result is contrary according to reports, with BD AIR sitting somewhere inbetween the BS-i and DVD.
*sigh* I guess this is one more argument supporting the "Lots of Japanese media companies can't encode, especially Pony Canyon (who will be producing the new Kanon DVDs as well -_-)."
I guess I should elaborate on the complaints towards BD AIR. While the aliasing artifacts is and can be attributed to upscaling, there are also instances where pixelisation is occuring in various high motion scenes. The most obvious of this is when during the opening scene where Mizusu is spinning around, the the DVD version pixelation was very obviously occuring for the whole of Mizusu's character while the BS-i version don't have this issue, so this shouldn't be a converting issue but rather a bitrate issue. When I was looking at BD AIR I specifically paid attention to this scene and the stream they were showing had pixelisation in it (though yes, not as bad as the DVD), while it may be just due to that stream being poorly encoded, it's not exactly encouraging when you supposedly have 40M/bits to throw at the process (actually they even showed the bitrate bar and it clocks at 40M/bits) and still have such simple compression artifacts.
Well, it's not really pixellation per se. But it is mosquito noise (ringing) and yes, it's resulting from bitrate starvation. I was indeed hoping the BD release would resolve this issue, but I'm guessing they screwed up the upconvert process and/or using the encoder *again* orz
My guess is that their upconvert created too much high frequency noise/errors, and thus totally killed the encoder. For example, those alias edges have *got* to be ugly to compress.
Also don't forget that there's also the *decoding* chain where image degration can occur. Not all signal processors are made equal.
This is why I prefer to do comparisons before any post processing, so I can look at the raw, decoded stream. The decoded output before post processing should be pretty standard across all decoders, as the bitstream format and decoding process is well defined. This removes all the unnecessary doubt regarding the post processing, and shows you exactly what information is actually there and what got blown away.
Shakugan no Shana
2006-09-09, 21:33
:) *Finished Pre-Ordering AIR Box 初回限定生産 (Blu-ray Disc)* Oh well... It is worth it. I know for sure I'll say it was a stupid move. But I'll love it for sure. :love:
Okay. Well, Standard Definition and High Definition are referring to the quality of the masters that the disks are encoded from, and to the final quality of the video on the disks. The primary thing to consider here is pixel resolution - AIR is a show broadcast in an aspect ratio of 16:9. In standard definition, this means the picture is 720 pixels wide by 480 pixels high - this is considered standard for NTSC television and DVD. (For PAL the height is instead 576 pixels, and there's a lot of fun involving FPS etc. Let's not go there tonight ^_^). In high definition, as Blu-ray is meant to be and as you'd expect a Blu-ray version of AIR to be, the resolution is somewhat higher. The minimum resolution for high definition is 1280 pixels wide by 720 pixels high, with progressive scan - this is referred to as 720p HD video. HD also refers to 1080i and 1080p video - which are interlaced and progressive scan, respecively, and boast a resolution of 1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high.
Additionally, HD video allows a far higher bitrate than SD video - basically (though perhaps not perfectly accurate...) the more bitrate, the better, at least assuming we're using masters and codecs that will benefit from the increased bitrate.
I've 'pinched' a chart from Wikipedia that might help illustrate what I'm talking about with resolution at any rate:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Resolution_chart.png
Okay, so ignoring the blue stuff on the right (We shouldn't but for the sake of this we will) the original source for the AIR disks on Blu-ray will be the yellow bit on the chart, plus the little orange bit on the left - where it says 480p - in terms of screen resolution. A true HD master would be either the dark orange part (720p) or the red part (1080p). As you can see, the image size is enormously increased, and in terms of HD video, the greater the resolution, the better the quality.
What they've announced they are doing with the AIR masters is taking a 480i/p image and upscaling it to (assumedly) 720p, that is encoding the master to a higher resolution than it was originally intended to be seen in. And they've said this will look great etc etc, but... it's still a 480i/p master. Basically, they're cheating and not actually providing real high definition video for this AIR set. Which is very disappointing, considering that Blu-ray is intended as a high definition format.
As to the cancellation of preorders... you know, i wouldn't be incredibly surprised. Imagine, you're a Japanese fan who has bought the LE R2s, and has snapped up a Blu-ray player (or will be snapping up a PS3) for your high-def anime fix. AIR is coming out, so naturally you'll get another copy - hey, it's AIR, and it's HD! Oh wait... it's not really. It's in fact the same, but altered slightly so it might look, oh, 10% better. Give or take. And it's another 300,000 yen, after you've already dropped 7000 yen per volume for seven volumes.
I can see my reaction right there. And I'm wondering now too - the bitrate is reported to be averaging around 40mbps, which is very nice, should eliminate those issues Pony Canyon had with compression artifacts in the original releases, which I've heard were a bit poorly mastered - insufficient bitrate, perhaps. So that's fine... but the lack of a proper HD master, meaning upscaling causing possible problems in itself?
I may need to rethink this. If I'm paying for a PS3 or Blu-ray player, I'm looking for fantastic video. Not for 'hey, somewhat better than DVD!' video.
-Andiyar
Yeah, I know. Even though, if you haven't realized, "Not All HDTV's are at full 1080p". Most are Fake to be honest, as in HDTV that appears with Specs "1080p". You can test them out yourselves in a BestBuy store or anything TechStore, you'll see the big difference between fake 1080p and real 1080p. There are a very few numbers that supports the best High Definition Quality, an example is this Top HDTV 46" BRAVIA™ XBR® LCD Flat Panel HDTVKDL-46XBR2 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=h835WT3b0X_4Mnkh27fzUnLLccTFZf1NOAw=?Cat egoryName=tv_flatpanel_46to52&ProductSKU=KDL46XBR2&TabName=specs&var2=)(Which is the HDTV I have). But without a doubt, I still want this Air Set, since it is like.... my most favorite anime of all you can say. <3
Maybe it's just me and I don't want to talk about technology I don't know a lot about as to be honest I don't know all the technical specs regarding bluray and hd dvd. I think both have a LOT of hype right now and i'm really waiting to see which technology takes off. Currently the war is sounding a lot like Betamax vs VHS. Yeah Betamax was superior in a few ways but it wasn't really cost effective. Also I remember during the VHS war we had a really nice Pioneer Elite Laserdisc player. I remember the quality of the video was very very clear but the discs were huge and not very cheap. I don't know what happened to the technology but it never became a standard at least in the US.
What i'm wondering is how either HD players could benefit myself, I really don't think it will if my primary viewing is Anime. I've seen the screenshots and realize it can't really represent how media would look on a regular hdtv. I myself am running I believe a 2nd generation Plasma display, it's a EDTV display 42" by Samsung with DVI therefore it's not truely HD. While I get HDTV channels from Dish and they are very colorful and vibrant (and my satellite box is set to 1080i) I believe this is actually scaled down to 480p so my tv is able to fit the resolution on the screen. It looks better than dvd quality in ways but even then it's a significant improvement. I've seen new generation plasma displays with HDTV content playing on them and it blows me away how clear it is even close up to the screen, with mine you walk up to it and you can see the pixels but from a good viewing distance it still looks as clear as any modern day plasma display.
Now with anime, i've noticed anime will really look good even on a regular CRT as it seems like there is little worry about skintone and realism as a real human compared to a drawing. I've watched anime in 16:9 through dvd upscaled and it looks very clear and vibrant, i'm sure anime will look better on hd dvd and bluray but the question is will it really be a noticeable difference? I'm sure the new anime coming out and stuff like Air would look better. I'm wondering if either player is even worth an investment with my current tv or if i'm just better off buying a new tv with a player within 2007.
One large marketing gimmick it seems especially at walmart are "HDTV ready tv's" which aren't truely HD, rather they downscale the signal. I bought my tv in early 2003 however so at the time I didn't really know about that though I bought mine at circuit city.
@ PILMAN
To be brief, if the show is originally created with a high definition master, then yes, you should notice a substantial difference given the correct equipment. At the moment, anime looks more likely to go Blu-ray then HD-DVD, but I wouldn't place bets on it not appearing on both media. If you have a proper HDTV, and a decent BR/HD-DVD player, and the correct source material is there... yes, there'll be a difference.
Of course, you've got to be willing to drop a lot of money on it, less you want to watch BR/HD-DVD movies on a computer/drive/monitor combo. :)
-Andiyar
@ PILMAN
To be brief, if the show is originally created with a high definition master, then yes, you should notice a substantial difference given the correct equipment. At the moment, anime looks more likely to go Blu-ray then HD-DVD, but I wouldn't place bets on it not appearing on both media. If you have a proper HDTV, and a decent BR/HD-DVD player, and the correct source material is there... yes, there'll be a difference.
Of course, you've got to be willing to drop a lot of money on it, less you want to watch BR/HD-DVD movies on a computer/drive/monitor combo. :)
-Andiyar
Would buying a bluray player for an edtv plasma be worth it or not really? I mean the HD channels look pretty crystal clear on my tv but i'm not sure if I should just stick to getting a bluray player for my computer instead.
preordered from Amazon for a total of ￥ 23,286
it could almost be expected that it would end up being just an upconversion or something stupid like that as its one of the first BD releases
anyways, I can set that aside for this
i had to reregister to post this due to inactivity >.>
with a little luck a truely remastered Blu-Ray or HD-DVD version will come out ;)
and if you're curious, I'll be waiting til 2007 to get a player, as they are currently well overpriced. I bought my first 'set-top' DVD player for $99 :D and it turned out to be mod-friendly for region free <3 apex.
So ok what do I get in the box set? Because I'm thinking it's just the 12 eps.
@ PILMAN
An EDTV does a maximum of 480p or 576p, so on that kind of TV you wouldn't really benefit from a blu-ray version as opposed to a DVD version. Since the DVD already does 480i, you'd be getting much the same quality actually displayed. That said, if the blu-ray version does fix some of the problems the DVD version has, the picture quality would benefit as well - you just wouldn't get the full 'HD' experience. Seeing as a SD master is being used anyway, well...
That said though, do you prefer to watch tv/etc on your television, or on your computer? The picture will probably look a bit better on the computer, but then you've got to factor in the 'home entertainment' parts as well. Lounging on the couch in front of a 42" TV (or whatever) is often better then sitting in a chair in front of a 20" monitor. Oh, and do keep in mind that if you are planning on buying blu-ray titles in future, getting the blu-ray player for the TV would probably be a better option - especially if you might look at a TV upgrade in the not-too-distant future.
Your mileage may vary, of course. If you have a 24" widescreen LCD, and your computer is hooked up to a nice set of speakers with a comfy chair... get the blu-ray player. BUT, make sure you get one that has blu-ray playback software - I'm not sure it's available yet :)
-Andiyar
@ PILMAN
An EDTV does a maximum of 480p or 576p, so on that kind of TV you wouldn't really benefit from a blu-ray version as opposed to a DVD version. Since the DVD already does 480i, you'd be getting much the same quality actually displayed. That said, if the blu-ray version does fix some of the problems the DVD version has, the picture quality would benefit as well - you just wouldn't get the full 'HD' experience. Seeing as a SD master is being used anyway, well...
That said though, do you prefer to watch tv/etc on your television, or on your computer? The picture will probably look a bit better on the computer, but then you've got to factor in the 'home entertainment' parts as well. Lounging on the couch in front of a 42" TV (or whatever) is often better then sitting in a chair in front of a 20" monitor. Oh, and do keep in mind that if you are planning on buying blu-ray titles in future, getting the blu-ray player for the TV would probably be a better option - especially if you might look at a TV upgrade in the not-too-distant future.
Your mileage may vary, of course. If you have a 24" widescreen LCD, and your computer is hooked up to a nice set of speakers with a comfy chair... get the blu-ray player. BUT, make sure you get one that has blu-ray playback software - I'm not sure it's available yet :)
-Andiyar
Hmm how much do 24" computer lcd's cost. I'm wondering if it'd even fit on my desk. I'm using a 19" at the moment. No plans to replace the Plasma display, only got it 3 years ago.
Hmm how much do 24" computer lcd's cost. I'm wondering if it'd even fit on my desk. I'm using a 19" at the moment. No plans to replace the Plasma display, only got it 3 years ago.
It will run you around $700-$1000.
So ok what do I get in the box set? Because I'm thinking it's just the 12 eps.
It's a bit more than that...the twelve episodes, the summer specials, an expanded version of AIR Memories (if I read correctly, longer cast interviews with improved audio and Japanese subtitles), an extended three-minute OP that's in true HD, an image gallery, and a new 5.1 remix in addition to the original stereo mix. I'm still disappointed that the video quality won't be as much of an improvement over the DVDs as I'd hoped for, but all the same -- I'd much rather regret buying this, than not buying it. ;)
It's a bit more than that...the twelve episodes, the summer specials, an expanded version of AIR Memories (if I read correctly, longer cast interviews with improved audio and Japanese subtitles), an extended three-minute OP that's in true HD, an image gallery, and a new 5.1 remix in addition to the original stereo mix. I'm still disappointed that the video quality won't be as much of an improvement over the DVDs as I'd hoped for, but all the same -- I'd much rather regret buying this, than not buying it. ;)
Yeah that's I thought as well! At least I can now say it's in my collection at last! Thanks for the info! Got an e-mail from amazon.co.jp ... : Delivery estimate: 2007/1/11 - 2007/1/18 Another delay?! What is going on?!
Just checked amazon.co.jp -- the delivery estimate for my copy is still 12/22/2006 - 12/26/2006, as it has been for a while, but the status has changed to "Shipping Soon / We are preparing these items for shipment and this portion of your order cannot be canceled or changed."
AIRy Christmas, everyone!
I think mine has left. Not too sure
I am planning on getting a 32" LCD TV to double up as my monitor. Why am I posting here? Because I plan to only watch AIR on it (no, seriousely :)). I am looking at the Sharp, Sony, and JVC; I've done "some" research on them. Anyone have any good/bad experiences they want to share?
W-General
2006-12-23, 10:17
To anyone still looking at this thread:
The Blu-ray rips of the "long-version opening animation" is available from usual outlets. Maybe someone should sub it.
Super high quality: 1280 x 720 - too high for my screen at home (my 19" widescreen is at my college apartment)
Wow...that just redefined beautiful for me. Here are a few representative frames for those who might be curious:
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/646/kano1kd4.th.png (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kano1kd4.png)http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/898/kano2jp9.th.png (http://img489.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kano2jp9.png)
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/748/minagi1zv2.th.png (http://img465.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minagi1zv2.png)http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4807/minagi2cd5.th.png (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=minagi2cd5.png)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5749/misuzu1vb4.th.png (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=misuzu1vb4.png)http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4552/misuzu2wy0.th.png (http://img149.imageshack.us/my.php?image=misuzu2wy0.png)
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2373/yukito1wv7.th.png (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yukito1wv7.png)http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6992/yukito2ht1.th.png (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yukito2ht1.png)
MakubeX2
2006-12-23, 19:39
Many of the scenes in the Hi-Def extended OP arn't in the show itself. Hints of a more faithful remake of AIR coming ?
Many of the scenes in the Hi-Def extended OP arn't in the show itself. Hints of a more faithful remake of AIR coming ?
That would be wonderful, but considering that KyoAni just did AIR in early 2005, and that they've got a very busy schedule ahead of them for some time, I don't think it's very likely. My guess is that the scenes in the extended OP are just the result of the animators having some fun doing things they didn't get to do when they originally did the series, but I don't think it's a sign of things to come.
I'd love to be proven wrong, though... ;)
If AIR HD is going to look like that consistently, I might consider buying the BR version.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/Izlude99/1166916571015.jpg
This is the re-made opening in the BR re-release:
http://stage6.divx.com/members/91791/videos/1063717
Jesus Lord. All right. I hated AIR and probably always will, barring a blow to the head or electric shock or something. My expectations for it were huge and it didn't deliver on any level except the way it looked and the soundtrack.
It was the promo's fault. Clouds, angels, rich summer colors, and the ocean, plus a cool song. I thought "Great! This thing is made for me!" Then it was nothing but cutesy girls and sadness and trite dialogue. Disappointing. Clicked over here today to check out the wallpapers thread, looked at his one by chance, and saw another awesome promo for a show that I know sucks. This isn't fair.
@ Veritas
Well... perhaps you should have asked a few general questions in regards to what Air was going to be about before you just picked it up and watched it? Your user title says that you hate bishoujo games; were you unaware that Air was based on a bishoujo game? Perhaps you should have bothered to find out in the first place?
And did you keep watching the show after the first episode? If so, and you hated it... sorry, but you do have only yourself to blame for that. Trite, but true.
As to the topic at hand... sigh, sadly I had to cancel my order for Air on blu-ray in the end, due to rather unforseeen problems involving a few bills and then the crazy month of cost that is December - a new pair of glasses, and paying for my GAMSAT test next year took a large chunk of my extra income, as did the whole Christmas shopping thing. That said - it's still available on Amazon.co.jp even now. And I'm in the process of downloading the OP rips, as they're really what I'd love to see right now. If I don't end up picking up the BR box in the next few months, I think I'll get the DVDs instead - saves me having to pick up a player - or, well... if the box is still there, my inherent weakness will still be there :)
Merry Christmas all!
-Andiyar
@ Veritas:
If something doesn't meet your expectations, it could be *gasp* your own fault for setting your own expectations too high. Moreover, why go to the subject's forum and say "omg this sucks"? It's like going to the Bleach forum and saying "omg bleach is gay and it's all the same one piece and dbz powerup shit" - pointless. If you put it in that way, it's doubtful that anyone cares what you have to say.
As to the topic at hand... sigh, sadly I had to cancel my order for Air on blu-ray in the end, due to rather unforseeen problems involving a few bills and then the crazy month of cost that is December - a new pair of glasses, and paying for my GAMSAT test next year took a large chunk of my extra income, as did the whole Christmas shopping thing. That said - it's still available on Amazon.co.jp even now. And I'm in the process of downloading the OP rips, as they're really what I'd love to see right now. If I don't end up picking up the BR box in the next few months, I think I'll get the DVDs instead - saves me having to pick up a player - or, well... if the box is still there, my inherent weakness will still be there :)Well your finances will be grateful that in the 12 hours or so since you posted that it's gone out of stock :heh: Looks like they won't be getting any more, either. Oh well, saves you buying the player I guess. Stuck with getting it in the end so mine's in my Kanon Vol 1 order, hurrah! Watch them bring out a BR set for that too.
Now to finally get round to buying a new TV...
outlaw97
2006-12-26, 14:54
So have the compression issues been resolved in the BD version? It's the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on the box set...
Well I got my copy today! But since I'm waiting for an multi region blu-ray player, it won't be opened :)
Heh, I still need a HDTV too. Mine should be here either tomorrow or the day after, so pics will follow for anyone interested providing the camera has enough batteries in it.
As for the compression issues, after this many delays they better have fixed them.
Okay, got it today and ... it's very small. I was expecting a huge box or something but it's about twice as thick as the Kanon v1 DVD I got with it and not even as tall. Still, better for storage I guess. The discs themselves are the same size as regular DVDs, and are all picture-labelled with some of the characters. Misuzu gets one, as does Kanna, Kano and Minagi, then there's a bigger image going across the back which is only half visible because the discs appear to be stuck to one side! Maybe I'm not trying hard enough. I tried to take pics but due to the lack of light they came out terrible and not worth uploading. I'll try again tomorrow.
Can't comment on video quality or anything, but the TV I was thinking of has gone down on price now so I'll probably get it in January, then it's just a case of waiting for the PS3 to go down in price then... :)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8729/resizewizard1wa4.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizewizard1wa4.jpg) http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9066/resizewizard2rw2.th.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizewizard2rw2.jpg) http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6243/resizewizard3nu1.th.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizewizard3nu1.jpg) http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9713/resizewizard4za9.th.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizewizard4za9.jpg) http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5939/resizewizard5el9.th.jpg (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizewizard5el9.jpg)
Photos! I apologise for how shoddy some of them came out, but it's getting dark stupidly early here lately and I don't exist in the mornings, so I've gotta make do with the flash. Which doesn't like shiny surfaces at all. Those ones above are like the best of 20 attempts at each. Kanna came out the worst because her side of the box is stuck down so I had to hold the other discs from falling on top of her.
w00t i got my AIR today and ran to my PS3 to start playing, I haven't seen the DVD version so I can really do a comparison but what is this compression issue on it, did they do it bad so they used lots of DVD's or does the image look jaggy? because this is what was on my PS3, the images were horrendously jaggy indicating the PS3 has no AA for Blu-Ray or Pony Canyon sucks but everything else: the color and the sound are really good.
w00t i got my AIR today and ran to my PS3 to start playing, I haven't seen the DVD version so I can really do a comparison but what is this compression issue on it, did they do it bad so they used lots of DVD's or does the image look jaggy? because this is what was on my PS3, the images were horrendously jaggy indicating the PS3 has no AA for Blu-Ray or Pony Canyon sucks but everything else: the color and the sound are really good.
The DVDs suffer from poor compression, resulting in occasional mosquito noise and blocking. Colors were also quite dull. And yeah, Pony Canyon has a poor track record when it comes to DVD encoding.
The upconverted Blu-Ray release suffers from aliasing, but boasts much improved compression. Fortunately, consumers seem happy enough with it, and it's probably the best retail release we'll get unless Pony Canyon remasters the DVDs (probably unlikely) or launches another HD version in the future.
On a related note, I'm hearing wonderful things about the new Kanon DVD, so it seems that the company has finally begun improving their product quality.
Hm. Sounds like I was somewhat justified in finally deciding against the blu-ray version of Air, albeit it that finances were more the problem at the time then video quality. Ah well.
Oh, and yes - the first Kanon disk looks gorgeous on my plasma. Much better than I've been lead to believe the AIR disks do. :)
-Andiyar
Yeah, having seen both an Air DVD and a Kanon DVD on the same TV with the same player, I can't fault the first volume of Kanon.
I'm glad they sorted out the compression anyway, and if people are happy enough that's good. I still haven't got the stuff to watch my set.
w00t i got my AIR today and ran to my PS3 to start playing, I haven't seen the DVD version so I can really do a comparison but what is this compression issue on it, did they do it bad so they used lots of DVD's or does the image look jaggy? because this is what was on my PS3, the images were horrendously jaggy indicating the PS3 has no AA for Blu-Ray or Pony Canyon sucks but everything else: the color and the sound are really good.
Actually, now that I reread this, I think you've been hit by the ugly bugbear of the PS3 - namely, that it cannot play 720p Blu-ray content, and, if I remember correctly, the remastered version of AIR (excluding the OP) is upscaled to 720p, not 1080x. So your PS3 isn't actually even capable of playing 720p video; apparently it can output movies in 1080p, 1080i and 480p, and that if a source doesn't conform it will downscale the signal. Also, do you have a 1080p television? As the PS3 also does a nasty trick to televisions that are 720p, largely downscaling all signals there too.
The bottom line here is that the AIR Blu-ray box might actually look pretty good; the general impression around the 'net seems to be so. Sadly though, this might only apply to people using a standalone Blu-ray player, *or* those with a 1080p television. Complainable? Oh yes - feel free to congratulate Sony; they're the ones who crippled PS3 Blu-ray.
-Andiyar
http://mdcfansubs.blogspot.com/
-- would any of you be interested in me doing this?
http://mdcfansubs.blogspot.com/
-- would any of you be interested in me doing this?
There isn't a strong enough form of "yes" to express what I want to say. :D
http://mdcfansubs.blogspot.com/
-- would any of you be interested in me doing this?
Short answer - yes. It's not like I can watch my version :heh:
As for the blog entry though, you mentioned help with karaoke. I wouldn't bother unless you personally really like it, the kind of people who'd be interested in a HD release are the kind who either don't care about, or outright hate, karaoke dancing across the screen when they'd rather concentrate on the anime itself and the higher quality. As for subtitles, Triad don't care. Someone used their subs before (for the Nanoha DVD releases), and basically all they care about is that you don't do a horrible job. If you bother asking they'll likely ignore you or just repeat that they don't care. They prefer no karaoke too. I don't think Koi even have a contact address, or at least I've never seen one.
yeah I've pretty much figured all that out - I did ask Triad but have no response just yet.
In regards to the karaoke I like it... but no worres I softsub EVERYTHING so it can be turned off.
@ Maniac
Yes, I'd be highly interested if you were to do this. I'm personally more of a fan of Koi's subtitles than I was of the Triad's, but then that's just personal opinion... and of course, if you're using a softsub I can just extract it, modify it, and remux it if I'm really that fanatical about it :)
As for karaoke, I can take it or leave it - but if you're putting it into the SSA stream, hey, that's fantastic right there. Many kudos for your sugestion, Maniac. My fingers are crossed. ^^
-Andiyar
Sai the Dreamer
2007-02-09, 09:26
Maniac: Is there any chance you could hardsub the opening and ending themes? Fancy karaoke is a pain to decode on even the highest end machines. But otherwise, I'm very interested in seeing this!
Asrialys
2007-02-09, 12:28
Someone uploaded a torrent of the BD episodes + extra stuff. Over 5 GB. It's just titled "air" on Tokyo Tosho. They're avi files I think. Haven't downloaded it yet. No space. lol
Potatochobit
2007-02-09, 12:39
wait a minute, how are u guys playing this on your PS3? there is no region 2 lock out? or does blue ray not have regions yet?
America and Japan share a Blu Ray-region, I believe it was #2.
(Which is why blu ray sucks, as Europe got a different one. :D )
Asrialys: Those are the raws I have.
Sai, no sorry. I dislike hardsubs, nor am I interested in encoding them. Other groups have hardsubbed the Op/Ed if you want it. Nor will any karaoke I do be too fancy, my P4 3.0c handled the lamune op/ed karaoke I had fine, although my old P3 1.0 had trouble with it. (albeit those are xvid encodes, these will be x264 if I do them).
I'd prefer to use Koi's subs but since I can't get in contact with them I don't want to use them without permission.
Hrm. Koi only really existed for the express purpose of subbing Air. They did mention that they had some thoughts of perhaps reforming in the misty future if something else they really wanted to do came up, but that otherwise Air was both their introduction and their swansong, as fans of the product. They did use to have the user name 'Koi' on these forums, but I can't see that they've bothered to reregister it after the Great Crash & Purge of '05, more's the pity. And I can't think of any other way whatsoever to contact them - that was the only time I ever saw them actually appearing in public at all.
Now, to some other random questions - you're planning on x264 if you do this; at what resolution will you be aiming for? The native of the raws you have (1024x576, which is interesting considering they should be 720p) or something smaller?
-Andiyar
I'll keep them 1024x576. I did find it odd that they were that res, but since air was upscaled for bluray I guess it really doesn't matter. I'm also going to mess around with encoding... I haven't really done any before... see if I can get all 12 eps + 2 summer eps to fit on one dvd. I actually may not have to do any... 4.45 GB with those 14 eps... and subtitles don't really add any size. My main concern is trying to get rid of that aliasing or whatever it is on still scenes.
This is what I'm talking about (look at yukito's hair, and a few of the other edges in the picture). It's not that bad but it's an annoyance.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1166/airpr5.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=airpr5.jpg)
Hm, yes, does look a bit aliased - how's it look during movement? In point of fact, that looks similar to the DVD raw of ep 1 I saw back in the day, and it aliases just a bit during motion as well. It's a pity - 'twould have been nice if Pony Canyon had either a) not sucked at their encode from the source or b) obtained a true hi-def version of Air from KyoAni and additionally not sucked at their encode.
Still, the background there looks cleaner than I remember the DVD looking. There's definitely that. :)
-Andiyar
It seems fine during movement, at least nothing really noticeable.
A bit OT, but how do the Air DVDs compare to the (re-encoded) recordings off BS-i?
From screen captures, it seems that the DVD images are sharper and more detailed, although there's noticeably more compression noise. On the whole, things don't look too bad to me (probably no worse than many of my R1 anime DVDs), although it's certainly a little disappointing given how beautifully animated the show is.
iLLuSionS
2007-02-14, 02:10
hey guys, been around for so long... just wondering if anyone can do me a big favour!
I've been looking for Air BluRay Limited Edition for a long time, yet a lot of places do not ship to Canada or what not. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any places that sells them!
I've tried amazon.co.jp, they wouldnt ship me it, and then there was cdjapan.co, which they were outta stock! The only place that I know of that probably has it is PlayAsia... but then I don't really wanna buy from their like... 25% mark up price!
Please give me suggestions on what to do!
hey guys, been around for so long... just wondering if anyone can do me a big favour!
I've been looking for Air BluRay Limited Edition for a long time, yet a lot of places do not ship to Canada or what not. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any places that sells them!
I've tried amazon.co.jp, they wouldnt ship me it, and then there was cdjapan.co, which they were outta stock! The only place that I know of that probably has it is PlayAsia... but then I don't really wanna buy from their like... 25% mark up price!
Please give me suggestions on what to do!
Play-Asia might be your only hope. While yes, it's more expensive there than it was, the set is basically out of print now, which is why CDJapan doesn't have any stock. Amazon JP doesn't actually have any either, all they have is a couple of copies from other buyers who won't ship internationally. YesAsia never had any, and that's basically all the sites that would ship to you - so if you really want it you're basically left with Play-Asia or buying it through Amazon JP or Yahoo Japan auctions via a proxy service, both of which will set you back more than Play-Asia will judging by the price they all start at.
Damn Japan and its obsession with limited editions, eh? :/
iLLuSionS
2007-02-14, 22:07
aw darn, i really hope to get it from somewhere else cheaper... if only if i ordered it cheaper, amazon.co.jp had 30% off... from retail, it was like 230$ CND!
I already have my copy, but was just looking on amazon.co.jp out of curiosity -- it looks like they have it back in stock, at a price of ￥23,840, which would be a little under $200 US before shipping.
iLLuSionS
2007-02-24, 15:37
omg! thanks thanks... gonna try ordering now! its good i havent decided to get from play asia yet... stupid company with their overpriced items
iLLuSionS
2007-02-28, 21:02
yay! just got my copy from the mail today ... i love it!!!! thanks a lot Minoto!
the box looks so amazingly nice!
I would have tried to procure this if I have the PS3. Too bad the console is not worth the purchase yet as of now.
I got my copy of the BD-Box back in December.
On a somewhat related note, I also have a laserdisc player. :3
(No Blu-Ray player yet, I sold my PS3!)
This summer Sony is releasing a new Blu-Ray player for $600. That should bring the first generation players to less than $500. The cheapest 1st generation player is currently $600 on Amazon (w/ discount), if you do not count the PS3.
I have a 2 disc tv rip set of Air and the video is pretty good-the subs are pretty bad though-what I did was take the video and fansubs and do my own version of the series-guess it'll have to do until ADV releases it-I really doubt that the video quality will be any better, though.
@ zrdb
eBay I'm guessing? Welcome to the marvelous world of Hong Kong bootleg disks. As a matter of fact, I think I have the same disks somewhere around, a friend bought them for me as she knew I loved Air and didn't know they were bootlegs. The video... well, not really 'pretty good' to my eyes, and the subs were dreadful, but I did use the sub timing and redo them myself for entertainment's sake - was considering seeing if there was some way of transferring them to the blu-ray set, at one point.. until a week or so ago anyway!
-Andiyar
Yup-they're hkdvs-like I said the video was pretty good-subs were bad-then I found out about these R2 dvd fansub rips-video looks very nice, seems to be the case with a lot of fansubs lately with h.264 for the video codec-they look as good as the originial source material.
iLLuSionS
2007-05-16, 16:17
i also have the bootlegged version, BUT since in own the limited edition, i am allowed to make backups =D
mine was 1 cd.. and the subtitles werent bad
R2 dvds can be a royal pain in the tailpipe-the video is usualy better than most R1 releases-but no english subs and no dub!?!?!?! I got R2 dvds for the originial Dirty Pair tv series a year ago-the video was excellent-but subbing them was a nightmare-I finally finished all 26 episodes-converted them to h.264 with the originial ac3 soundtrack and uploaded them to the internet as fansubs-my homage to Kei and Yuri, the girls who got me into anime 12 years ago.
Wait... you're complaining that R2 DVDs, authored specifically for the Japanese market and for sale only in the Japanese market, don't have English subtitles or language tracks? Forgive me as I say this, but that strikes me as rather stupid.
Japanese DVDs (ie, R2, and specifically anime) contain exactly what their target market desires - high quality video and audio, with often very attractive packaging, in both limited and normal editions. They are authored in Japan, pressed in Japan, and sold in Japan. Their target market are Japanese. Why on earth would they contain any semblance of Ango-Saxonification? They aren't available except by restricted import from their country of origin!
To make a corollary, it's like complaining that R1 DVDs from America - let's say TV show DVDs - are a pain, because they don't have an Arabic audio track or subtitle stream, despite the video quality being better than DVDs available in the U.A.E (if you were an Emirates citizen, of course). It is an incredibly irrelevant argument - you aren't the market, you never will be the market, ergo, they can't be expected to cater to you at all.
Yes, R2 disks often have better video quality - although in the case of Air, I"m betting it'll be the other way, thanks to the prowess of Pony Canyon. R2 disks often also have much more attractive packaging, and come with neat extras. But first and foremost - they're R2. Japan. Anyone outside of Japan has their own DVD region to buy from, with disks to cater to their market. What R2 do and don't include is, quite frankly, their own business - and with their pricing structure, even if they did include english substreams, I can't imagine they'd get much of a return. :)
Oh, and as an aside, I'm not a fan of the region scheme used by the DVD forum, nor of the similar scheme by the Blu-ray consortium. I buy R1, R2 and R4 disks (a benefit of region-free DVD players being legal here), and watch them all - but I'm also aware of the original market intentions of the producers of said disks.
Best,
-Andiyar
Just out of curiosity, has anyone had the opportunity to view the Blu-ray version on something other than a PS3?
I downloaded the 1.80 upgrade for my PS3 today, and it has a number of improvements including PSX/PS2 game and DVD upscaling to 720p/1080x as well as Blu-ray downscaling to 720p. That last feature had me hoping that AIR would finally look clean, but no luck. It fixes the problem where Blu-ray discs with 1080p streams got downconverted all the way to 480p for people with early HDTVs that maxed out at 720p, but doesn't seem to do anything for discs that are encoded at 720p to begin with, as we assume AIR to be -- it's as jaggy as ever. The DVD upscaling works nicely, though, resulting in the DVD version looking much better than the Blu-ray version...sigh.
I'm just wondering if anyone has ever confirmed this to be unique to those of us using PS3s for playback, or if it really is a fault with the Blu-ray version itself, caused in the original upscaling process.
Wait... you're complaining that R2 DVDs, authored specifically for the Japanese market and for sale only in the Japanese market, don't have English subtitles or language tracks? Forgive me as I say this, but that strikes me as rather stupid.
Japanese DVDs (ie, R2, and specifically anime) contain exactly what their target market desires - high quality video and audio, with often very attractive packaging, in both limited and normal editions. They are authored in Japan, pressed in Japan, and sold in Japan. Their target market are Japanese. Why on earth would they contain any semblance of Ango-Saxonification? They aren't available except by restricted import from their country of origin!
To make a corollary, it's like complaining that R1 DVDs from America - let's say TV show DVDs - are a pain, because they don't have an Arabic audio track or subtitle stream, despite the video quality being better than DVDs available in the U.A.E (if you were an Emirates citizen, of course). It is an incredibly irrelevant argument - you aren't the market, you never will be the market, ergo, they can't be expected to cater to you at all.
Yes, R2 disks often have better video quality - although in the case of Air, I"m betting it'll be the other way, thanks to the prowess of Pony Canyon. R2 disks often also have much more attractive packaging, and come with neat extras. But first and foremost - they're R2. Japan. Anyone outside of Japan has their own DVD region to buy from, with disks to cater to their market. What R2 do and don't include is, quite frankly, their own business - and with their pricing structure, even if they did include english substreams, I can't imagine they'd get much of a return. :)
Oh, and as an aside, I'm not a fan of the region scheme used by the DVD forum, nor of the similar scheme by the Blu-ray consortium. I buy R1, R2 and R4 disks (a benefit of region-free DVD players being legal here), and watch them all - but I'm also aware of the original market intentions of the producers of said disks.
Best,
-Andiyar
You're missing the boat here-I KNOW R2 dvds don't have english subs-what I was complaining about is that it's a pain in the ass to add subtitles to the video.
You're missing the boat here-I KNOW R2 dvds don't have english subs-what I was complaining about is that it's a pain in the ass to add subtitles to the video.
Pointing at this:
R2 dvds can be a royal pain in the tailpipe-the video is usualy better than most R1 releases-but no english subs and no dub!?!?!?!
indicates otherwise. My apologies if I have misunderstood you, but your post doesn't seem to indicate what you've stated :)
I personally have never had much trouble adding subtitles to DVDs - I have been, for instance, adding substreams to the Kanon 2006 DVDs as I get them, substreams that I've taken from Eclipse's releases. Takes a little bit of time, but isn't all that hard, at least I don't find it so. Your mileage may vary, of course, as may your software tools :)
-Andiyar
sayuritokyo
2007-06-03, 07:17
This was back in December 2006. I wonder how much it costs now..
http://www.techsuki.net/wonderland/Japan/Tokyo/PICT1307_(Custom).JPG
angelofragnarok
2007-11-04, 23:06
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/customer-images/B000H3075S/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0/249-9548262-9487530?ie=UTF8&index=0
Can anyone tell me what this is? I'm really into AIR, but I can't seem to find any details about this item anywhere. I'd rather not drop $200 without knowing what I'm buying. >.<
musashiken
2007-11-04, 23:15
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/customer-images/B000H3075S/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0/249-9548262-9487530?ie=UTF8&index=0
Can anyone tell me what this is? I'm really into AIR, but I can't seem to find any details about this item anywhere. I'd rather not drop $200 without knowing what I'm buying. >.<
It's the first press limited edition of Air TV on Blu Ray.
It contains all 12 episodes with the 2 special episodes. Seems like they made a new opening sequence for the Blu ray release.
It has some extras like an extended version of the new opening, an illustration gallery pics, and Japanese subtitles.
The movie is not included inside though.
I suppose that if you're an Air fan, it's alright to buy it. But for a Blu Ray box set, having the movie included would have been a lot better.
Well AFAIK, this is the first anime TV series I heard of that's released on High Definition. Japanese companies are still busy releasing anime series on standard DVDs. Only certain anime movies are released on High Definition.
@ angelofragnarok
As musashiken has said, Air on Blu Ray is the original series mastered onto Blu Ray, with the two Air in Summer episodes. They've also created a new extended OP and a few other goodies. The bad news is, though, the entire set isn't actually HD. The episodes were upscaled from SD into HD, resulting in a 720p picture. The only actual HD content on the disks are the new OP sequences, which are present in 1080p. Also, I've read (and been told) that the upscaler wasn't exactly stellar, so that the picture increase on this set is so small as to be almost irrelevant compared to the R2 DVD release.
So. It depends, really, if you want Air on Blu Ray enough to ignore the lack of an English translation and the subpar video present. I came within a whisker of buying it myself, until I realised I didn't have a Blu Ray player, wouldn't for a while, and then ADV releasing the R1 made me change my mind completely. But hey, YMMV. :)
-Andiyar
Cloud668
2007-11-10, 17:23
I have bought the bd set recently, and as andiyar said, sometimes the video just isn't that great, usually the edges of the foreground animation is seen pretty clearly, but it doesn't exactly ruin the mood (to me at least).
mandarb916
2008-04-08, 02:19
Was wondering if anyone had both AIR on DVD and on Blu-ray. I'm in Japan for a bit and was thinking about getting the AIR BD box-set if the quality is significantly improved over the DVD version since I wouldn't have to pay exorbitant markup through places like playasia and what not.
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