The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya [Archive] - Page 12

Triple_R

2009-12-04, 08:35

Well, she certainly isn't lesser to any current beings in the novels.

It is a common theme for many deities in fiction to wonder if they truly are the most powerful beings, or that there is a greater creature out there. But it is pointless to assume there could be a greater deity to Haruhi when there is absolutely no evidence for it.

Haruhi's very status is arguably evidence for it.

If Haruhi is God, then why is she not aware of it? At a more basic level, why is Haruhi not aware that she is functionally omnipotent?

Would God freely choose to become a flesh and blood human with out any awareness whatsoever of a prior and/or continuing divine status? If so, what prompted that choice?

At the very least, Vallen, there's no good reason whatsoever to completely rule out the real possibility that there's a greater deity to Haruhi. Even Koizumi has openly speculated to this possibility, in the Sigh novel.

Quite simply, Haruhi has been able to do whatever she likes with her power. If there is a greater deity out there, It certainly isn't doing anything about Haruhi's acts of destruction.

Perhaps Haruhi's "acts of destruction" are the whole point. Perhaps she was empowered by an exterior source as a test, and/or to serve as a catalyst of change.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-12-04, 08:49

Haruhi's very status is arguably evidence for it.

If Haruhi is God, then why is she not aware of it? At a more basic level, why is Haruhi not aware that she is functionally omnipotent?

Would God freely choose to become a flesh and blood human with out any awareness whatsoever of a prior and/or continuing divine status? If so, what prompted that choice?

At the very least, Vallen, there's no good reason whatsoever to completely rule out the real possibility that there's a greater deity to Haruhi. Even Koizumi has openly speculated to this possibility, in the Sigh novel.

Perhaps Haruhi's "acts of destruction" are the whole point. Perhaps she was empowered by an exterior source as a test, and/or to serve as a catalyst of change.

Quite simply, you can't prove the absence of a higher being. Scientific proof don't handle negatives very well. But what makes you think there isn't a higher being above the hypothetical higher God? And another? And another?

You end up with a Russian Doll filled with undetectable deities, each being invincible, undetectable, and omnipotent to the weaker deities below It.

But that means NOTHING. Not until the Deity show itself by acting contrary to Haruhi's whims.

If Haruhi's will is causing all the damage, then Haruhi is in charge. Until her actions were directly rejected by your hypothetical higher being, she might as well BE the higher being.

If Haruhi is the vessel from which a higher being makes Its decisions, then is there any point separate them? It is like how Yuki Nagato is actually far greater than the schoolgirl body that you see, a large chunk of her essence is outside the timeline itself, which makes her infinitely large in 3D space. Yet we don't differentiate demi-god Yuki from the school-girl body she takes shape in. So why separate Haruhi from the divine power? They are one and the same until there is a sign of disagreement. And thus far, there isn't. What Haruhi truly wants, she gets. No matter how unreasonable.

Triple_R

2009-12-04, 09:10

Look, Vallen, I'm just saying that Haruhi's status is kind of weird.

There's a huge incongruency between functional omnipotence, and yet complete unawareness of that power. It kind of begs the question of what's causing that incongruency, don't you think? People are just speculating as to what's causing that incongruency, and looking at the possible answers for it.

If Haruhi was fully aware of her power... if she was like, say, Q from Star Trek... I would see no real incongruency here and hence would have no desire to speculate to what's causing it.

As is, I personally lean towards two possibilities of what's causing the incongruency as it pertains to Haruhi...

1) Haruhi was a fully aware God, but grew bored with omnipotence/omniscience and hence choose to incarnate as a flesh and blood human girl with out any awareness of her powers; divinely self-imposed amnesia and knowledge limits. This perhaps would be in keeping with Haruhi's personality.

2) Haruhi is empowered by an exterior source. Perhaps this empowerment is done in such a way as to prevent Haruhi from gaining awareness of her powers.

There are perhaps other possibilities ('naturally occurring' omnipotence may be one, but I find that very odd when it isn't accompanied by awareness of that power... i.e. it usually doesn't take that long for Marvel comics universe mutants to become aware of their great natural power), but these are the two that I lean towards, and alternate between.

If Haruhi's will is causing all the damage, then Haruhi is in charge. Until her actions were directly rejected by your hypothetical higher being, she might as well BE the higher being.

Speaking personally, "God" implies more to me than simply omnipotence... it also implies omniscience and possibly omnipresence, and Haruhi doesn't have the latter two.

However, I agree that she is functionally omnipotent. In her ability to realize her wishes, she might as well be God, yes.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-12-04, 09:22

2) Haruhi is empowered by an exterior source.

This is what I want to focus on.

Does the term "External Source' make any sense at all?

Because theoretically Yuki is also "empowered by an external source", namely, the part of her that is a 4-dimensional lifeform and exist outside the timeline. Yet we don't differentiate between the humanoid Yuki and the impossible-to-imagine 4-dimensional Yuki.

Why would it be "external", anyway? It might well be that Haruhi's divine power is just another part of herself. There is no reason to decide that the divine-Haruhi is a separate entity. For example, it could be explained that Haruhi "does", in a way, know about her divine powers. Some version of herself, in either the far future or Alternate Universe, could well be fully self-aware. But since Haruhi's powers extend through time, it is enough that only some part of Haruhi somewhere in the fabric of spacetime is omniscience; she as a whole does not have to be omniscience.

To put in an analogy, you as a person know how to use the internet, but your kidney doesn't. But how could it be? Isn't your kidney a part of yourself? Hence, the tiny part of Haruhi we know is unaware of her powers, but some part of her, somewhere in spacetime, do know what she is. As a sum of all her parts, she is likely omniscience. But we can't see the entire Haruhi, the same way we can't see the entire Yuki. Their "body" is far larger and extends further than what we can sense.

Triple_R

2009-12-04, 09:27

This is what I want to focus on.

Does the term "External Source' make any sense at all?

Because theoretically Yuki is also "empowered by an external source", namely, the part of her that is a 4-dimensional lifeform and exist outside the timeline. Yet we don't differentiate between the humanoid Yuki and the impossible-to-imagine 4-dimensional Yuki.

Why would it be "external", anyway? It might well be that Haruhi's divine power is just another part of herself. There is no reason to decide that the divine-Haruhi is a separate entity. For example, it could be explained that Haruhi "does", in a way, know about her divine powers. Some version of herself, in either the far future or Alternate Universe, could well be fully self-aware. But since Haruhi's powers extend through time, it is enough that only some part of Haruhi somewhere in the fabric of spacetime is omniscience; she as a whole does not have to be omniscience.

To put in an analogy, you as a person know how to use the internet, but your kidney doesn't. But how could it be? Isn't your kidney a part of yourself? Hence, the tiny part of Haruhi we know is unaware of her powers, but some part of her, somewhere in spacetime, do know what she is. As a sum of all her parts, she is likely omniscience. But we can't see the entire Haruhi, the same way we can't see the entire Yuki. Their "body" is far larger and extends further than what we can sense.

Ok, I see what you're saying.

Perhaps that's a good way of looking at it.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-12-04, 09:43

Ok, I see what you're saying.

Perhaps that's a good way of looking at it.

Of course, a fun Lovecraft-style mental image you can generate from this, is that both Haruhi and Yuki are giant squid-like beings , with each tentacle following a timeline and assemble into a humanoid 3D image in the time-stream.:heh:

But try not to think about it too hard; you might start screaming "Haruhi fhtagn!!!" in the middle of the night.:heh:

OkamiNoKaze

2009-12-04, 10:32

I've got it, I've got it, She's not god, she's daughter of Scarlet Witch, and a time traveling Franklin Richards.

Triple_R

2009-12-04, 11:23

So Haruhi's grandfathers are Reed Richards (paternal) and Magneto (maternal)?

Well, that would explain Haruhi's school smarts (Reed), as well as her take charge nature and hatred of normal humans (Magneto). ;) :heh:

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-04, 15:03

It is a common theme for many deities in fiction to wonder if they truly are the most powerful beings, or that there is a greater creature out there. But it is pointless to assume there could be a greater deity to Haruhi when there is absolutely no evidence for it.

Actually, if I recall correctly, the only beings Haruhi herself refers to as 'gods' are Orihime and Hikoboshi...

SgtHydra

2009-12-04, 19:56

Of course, a fun Lovecraft-style mental image you can generate from this, is that both Haruhi and Yuki are giant squid-like beings , with each tentacle following a timeline and assemble into a humanoid 3D image in the time-stream.:heh:

But try not to think about it too hard; you might start screaming "Haruhi fhtagn!!!" in the middle of the night.:heh:

Pfft... the Integrated Thought Entity is already Lovecraftian enough.

It's no Azathoth, but it's fair to say that anyone who were to... oh say... try to mount some sort of attack on it directly... you'd definately be getting a major Outer God-style beat down.

Haruhi, on the other hand, is anything but a cosmic horror, imho.

She's human. A special human, but human none the less.

If I'd be on the lookout for anyone, it's Kyon.

He's... something...

I just feel there's a lot more to him than any of us could guess.

Tabasco

2009-12-04, 23:18

There is a lot more to Kyon than meets the eye, but I think its all internal.

He presents himself as an unwilling accomplice to the madness around him, but more than anyone other than Haruhi he directs where it goes. He says over and over that he's powerless compared to the superhuman entities around him, but he has not only final veto authority but trump cards against just about everyone else in the brigade with the possible exception of Koizumi.

I think that if we fast forward about 10 years we'll find out he was completely normal, but also someone who ends up being very important in the history of his time.

dragon4dudes

2009-12-04, 23:44

Well, without the normal people, who's extraordinary?

ijuinkun

2009-12-06, 23:11

Actually, if I recall correctly, the only beings Haruhi herself refers to as 'gods' are Orihime and Hikoboshi...
Haruhi seems to pay lip service to the Shinto gods, much as any Japanese teenager who wasn't specifically raised in another religious tradition.

panzerfan

2009-12-07, 01:14

Well, keep in mind that the concept of deity in Shinto really is only a fine line from Youkai at times. The coined term '8 million gods' should be some indication of what the Japanese would put the 'god' label on.

Their gods fundamentally are fueled by faith, more than anything else. The message that I keep getting is that a 'god' can only exist if there are those that believe in them. This faith doesn't seem to be purely of piety at all, but goes to the fundamental choice in accepting their existence.

As for Kyon, he knows far more than a typical Japanese student, which is obvious when he makes his cross-cultural historic reflections in humanity alone. In an age where the typical collage student might not even know enough of the greatest generation, he cites Cicero, laments with Dickens, and resonates with the exiled Machiavelli.

However, I see his own sliding scale of cynicism and constructionist attitude as the most humane inner balance with the characters in the story.

Heatth

2009-12-07, 16:15

I can't get why omnipotence is incongruent to unawareness. One thing is not related to another. She is omnipotent (all powerfull) not omniscient (knows everything). Of course she, theorically, could become omniscient as well (since she supposely can do anything)... if she know she could.

Besides, we don't if she is really omnipotent, insted just very, very powerfull.

PP:
Also, the only person who called Haruhi "God" was Itsuki, and he don't even believe in it. Also, what he was meaning is she might be The Creator. Assuming that "The Creator"="All Powerfull Being" is a christian concept, one thing is not related to another.

dragon4dudes

2009-12-07, 16:40

We can almost if not completely say she is omnipotent, but not at all omniscient. She can bend reality to her will but doesn't realize that she's bending reality.she may be god-tier, must not God-tier.

Understand the difference between "god" and "God"

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-07, 19:50

Haruhi can make cherry blossoms bloom in November and transport the solar system to the Orion Nebula... I'd say she's omnipotent. We've never seen any kind of limit to her power yet.

Smeghead

2009-12-07, 20:00

She can't make herself and kyon pair up on any searches.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-07, 21:07

She can't make herself and kyon pair up on any searches.

Actually, yeah, you're right. While the second one they did (in Vol. 7) was Nagato shenanigans, the one in Vol. 1 makes little sense.

Maybe because she was actively trying to pair herself up with him? Her powers are subconscious...

Triple_R

2009-12-07, 21:08

She can't make herself and kyon pair up on any searches.

Perhaps she doesn't really want that to happen. Perhaps she'd find it too easy, or too convenient.

Edit: Consider Haruhi's reaction to when Kyon told her that Itsuki, Mikuru, and Yuki were an ESPer, a time traveler, and an alien, respectively. Haruhi eventually exploded at him verbally, and shouted "It wouldn't be that easy!".

In Haruhi's mind, the things that she really, really wants are things that have to be worked hard for; it actually might offend her or disappoint her if it was just handed over to her on a silver platter, so to speak.

Perhaps ironically, Haruhi doesn't want "easy victories". Another example of that is how Haruhi was actually slightly disappointed over how easily her SOS Brigade team won the team rely race due to Nagato's great speed.

In an odd sort of way, Haruhi's own psychological structure tends to keep her powers in check to some degree.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-07, 21:14

In an odd sort of way, Haruhi's own psychological structure tends to keep her powers in check to some degree.

And if you, like me, believe that the three years ago event was actually Haruhi removing her own knowledge of what she is, this makes perfect sense.

dragon4dudes

2009-12-07, 21:39

I think that's the first time I actually heard that theory. It does seem to make sense, Haruhi destroying the link to the past so she can't find out she is godlike. Though why would it cause espers to appear?

Jintor

2009-12-07, 21:43

Checks and balances, I'd assume. Perhaps a natural consequence of not knowing is the Celestials, so the Espers act as Haruhi's white blood cells. Uh, if white blood cells were co-opted from ordinary people, of course.

dragon4dudes

2009-12-07, 22:04

That's the first time I've heard an human-cell analogy. So what are the red blood cells, if its put that way? Everybody else?

Please don't actually answer that.

Triple_R

2009-12-07, 22:16

And if you, like me, believe that the three years ago event was actually Haruhi removing her own knowledge of what she is, this makes perfect sense.

That's one of the better theories, I think, yeah.

I think that's the first time I actually heard that theory. It does seem to make sense, Haruhi destroying the link to the past so she can't find out she is godlike. Though why would it cause espers to appear?

Necessary precaution. Haruhi, while in a state of knowing what she is, chose to remove all knowledge of what she is from herself... but she didn't remove her powers. Hence, Haruhi herself intentionally gave rise to the ESPers in order for them to keep her oblivious self in check.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-07, 23:02

That's the first time I've heard an human-cell analogy. So what are the red blood cells, if its put that way? Everybody else?

Please don't actually answer that.

Great. Now I'm beginning to think that Haruhi is, in fact, the living embodiment of Gaia...

dragon4dudes

2009-12-07, 23:05

You're welcome?

Triple_R

2009-12-07, 23:06

Great. Now I'm beginning to think that Haruhi is, in fact, the living embodiment of Gaia...

... now you have me thinking about the old Captain Planet cartoon. :heh:

If Haruhi is Gaia, I guess that means that Kyon is Captain Planet... ;)

GDB

2009-12-07, 23:15

Kyon is obviously the heart, Nagato the brain, and Mikuru... liver?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-07, 23:18

... now you have me thinking about the old Captain Planet cartoon. :heh:

If Haruhi is Gaia, I guess that means that Kyon is Captain Planet... ;)

I was more thinking of the Nasuverse, but eh. I'm just glad no one mentioned that shitty Final Fantasy movie.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-12-07, 23:19

Itsuki would look better in that outfit though

CrowKenobi

2009-12-08, 01:28

ijuinkun

2009-12-08, 03:39

Haruhi can make cherry blossoms bloom in November and transport the solar system to the Orion Nebula... I'd say she's omnipotent. We've never seen any kind of limit to her power yet.

I don't recall the Orion thing--where was that?

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-08, 03:44

I don't recall the Orion thing--where was that?

It's only in the anime, but in Sighs, Kyon only gets the motivation to stop Haruhi dicking with physics when he looks up one night and sees the Orion Fucking Nebula.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2009-12-08, 03:46

She can't make herself and kyon pair up on any searches.

Technically Haruhi is still in denial about her feelings. So it is very easy for her desire to be paired up with Kyon to be suppressed by "why would I want that anyway" tsundere thinking. Haruhi was annoyed at not being paired with Kyon, but she didn't understand why.

Jintor

2009-12-08, 04:00

I really liked the montage of WTF in Sighs.

quigonkenny

2009-12-08, 08:18

It's only in the anime, but in Sighs, Kyon only gets the motivation to stop Haruhi dicking with physics when he looks up one night and sees the Orion Fucking Nebula.
I don't remember the shot, but I would be willing to wager it was a typical KyoAni compositional non-sequitur. It looked pretty, and they wanted him staring off somewhere, so there you go. The only celestial hullabaloo Haruhi raised in Sigh was shifting the Earth's precession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_(astronomy)#Astronomy) "a bit". And this is what Yuki told him, so who knows how infinfitesimal that "bit" was... Unlikely that it was enough to move Earth's polar orientation to Orion, or he'd have heard it on the news instead of from Yuki... Moving the solar system there is on a whole other level entirely...

And I'm pretty sure Kyon was sold on deterring Haruhi's rewrite of the laws of physics after Nagato intercepted that first Mikuru Beam, in both novel and anime.

dragon4dudes

2009-12-08, 19:37

The shot was after Itsuki pulling Kyon aside for the nth time. It was on the bridge. I think it occurred in Sighs 4. Too lazy to check it...

Solachinx

2009-12-08, 21:27

I think that was just supposed to be an artistic metaphor of Kyon coming to a revelation or entering deep thought or something pataphysical like that.

dragon4dudes

2009-12-08, 21:49

Regardless, it was a nice shot.

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-09, 00:22

I don't remember the shot, but I would be willing to wager it was a typical KyoAni compositional non-sequitur. It looked pretty, and they wanted him staring off somewhere, so there you go. The only celestial hullabaloo Haruhi raised in Sigh was shifting the Earth's precession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_(astronomy)#Astronomy) "a bit". And this is what Yuki told him, so who knows how infinfitesimal that "bit" was... Unlikely that it was enough to move Earth's polar orientation to Orion, or he'd have heard it on the news instead of from Yuki... Moving the solar system there is on a whole other level entirely...

Yes, it was anime-only. So? It was awesome. :heh:

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that Haruhi can actually do that, considering what her powers do in Disappearance. There are no limits.

I think that was just supposed to be an artistic metaphor of Kyon coming to a revelation or entering deep thought or something pataphysical like that.

No, it was the Orion Fucking Nebula.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b314/Kaisos/OrionFuckingNebula.jpg

Remember the shot now, everyone?

Solachinx

2009-12-09, 05:08

Yes, and it still comes off as metaphorical versus actual because of how the scene was presented.

OkamiNoKaze

2009-12-09, 10:37

I've saved that shot and used it as wall paper before,

quigonkenny

2009-12-09, 12:40

Yes, and it still comes off as metaphorical versus actual because of how the scene was presented.
Seconded.

Metaphor or "typical KyoAni compositional non-sequitur"... Same thing, more or less.

Not like it's the first time they've done it, Kaisos. Remember Yuki's tea-and-infodump? Haruhi's baseball story? Koizumi Itsuki and The Hairy Mole (there's a Harry Potter joke in there somewhere)? Sometimes I wonder how much KyoAni has influenced Shaft (in parody fodder if nothing else) and how much has been the other way around. Animated Acid Trip Paniponi Dash, with its guaranteed 20 minutes a week of non-sequitur and arguably the godfather of Shaft being Shaft, predated KyoAni's Haruhi...

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-09, 14:24

How is it so hard for you people to accept that Haruhi has absolute control over reality? :heh:

That was about the best WTF shot ever...

dragon4dudes

2009-12-09, 17:21

^Seconded.

*e* Lol just made character count.

quigonkenny

2009-12-11, 03:55

How is it so hard for you people to accept that Haruhi has absolute control over reality? :heh:
I never said she didn't. I just say she didn't that time. Note that every time she's done something, it's been something that the Organization can get the public to write off as an abberation, or a fluke, like the out-of-season sakura blossoms. Transporting the entire solar system into close proximity to Orion's Nebula is not something that could be written off, therefore we would have heard about it in-universe, which we didn't, which means it didn't happen.

Besides, there weren't any nighttime scenes in 00, so she wouldn't have reason to have done it anyway... ^_^

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-11, 03:58

To be fair, it could only have been for perhaps ten minutes. Maybe she wanted a shot of outer space for Evil Sorceress Yuki's departure or something but thought better of it.

quigonkenny

2009-12-11, 04:05

To be fair, it could only have been for perhaps ten minutes. Maybe she wanted a shot of outer space for Evil Sorceress Yuki's departure or something but thought better of it.
Just how far out of your grasp are those straws? ^_^

Kaisos Erranon

2009-12-11, 04:07

Just how far out of your grasp are those straws? ^_^

In anime-canon, she teleported them to Orion. I'm not saying she did it in the novel, but it's clearly there in the anime.

spawnofthejudge

2009-12-11, 07:58

The Little, Brown and Company site (http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/teens_books_9780316038867.htm) lists the release date of Boredom as July 1, 2010.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2009-12-11, 12:47

I'm gonna have to agree with quigon here. Mainly because I don't think Haruhi even had the ending planned out at that point. :heh:

SgtHydra

2009-12-11, 23:08

Alternately, Haruhi could have been growing increasingly bored with the world she was in, prefering the sci-fi adventure flick she was shooting.

It is already canon that she was slowly "spicing things up," so why not the night sky?

Probably was looking up at the night sky and was all "pfft, how ordinary," and...

Yeah...

Instant teleport to a place with a great view.

CrowKenobi

2009-12-12, 00:21

Instant teleport to a place with a great view.Or bring the "great view" home! :p :heh:

Heminga13

2009-12-30, 17:11

So I finally got around to checking out the manga (bought the first three volumes) and I've liked it so far. I don't remember if I need a spoiler tag or not so I'll have one just to be safe.

It seems to be a bit faster paced than the novels and anime. I thought it was strange having Asakura's event happen really early but otherwise I liked a lot of the little things that have been added. Notably Yuki taking pictures of books. That made me chuckle.

'Knowing Me, Knowing You' seemed to me to just be part of the content of Sigh (that Mikuru was acting a certain way on purpose, etc) but just changed over to happen before BLR.

Anyway, I'll probably get volume 4 sometime (for some reason I thought it wasn't out yet when I ordered the first three) and then start keeping up with the releases.

OkamiNoKaze

2010-01-01, 19:29

Yeah I liked the "Knowing Me, Knowing You" story, plus it's got Yuki in that interesting outfit.

Vol 4. has a manga only chapter as well, "Another Mysteresque Sign" Which is quite cool, and you get to meet some of Kyon's relatives.

SgtHydra

2010-01-02, 01:08

OkamiNoKaze

2010-01-02, 02:09

They're just kind of there, from what I remember. They don't get a lot of development

quigonkenny

2010-01-02, 12:33

Vol 4. has a manga only chapter as well, "Another Mysteresque Sign" Which is quite cool, and you get to meet some of Kyon's relatives.
Ahhh, blasphemy! Kyon has no canon relatives other than Imouto-chan (and an off-camera mother in Sigh)! Burn the infidels! Death to the nonbelievers! Etc., etc....

Glad that's out of my system... What volume was that in?

Ah, Volume 4. I should read before I post... Drr...

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-02, 16:31

Ahhh, blasphemy! Kyon has no canon relatives other than Imouto-chan (and an off-camera mother in Sigh)! Burn the infidels! Death to the nonbelievers! Etc., etc....

Actually, his grandmother is mentioned several times in the books... it's only his grandfather (who, like all animesque grandfathers, looked exactly like Kyon when he was younger) that's a new character.

Furthermore, the story in question is actually somewhat referenced in Endless Eight... Kyon mentions having gone to see his grandmother in the countryside. Also, we get to see him wearing glasses (and god is he ever generic-looking in them).

So the story really isn't that terrible.

SgtHydra

2010-01-02, 17:54

Actually, his grandmother is mentioned several times in the books... it's only his grandfather (who, like all animesque grandfathers, looked exactly like Kyon when he was younger) that's a new character.

Furthermore, the story in question is actually somewhat referenced in Endless Eight... Kyon mentions having gone to see his grandmother in the countryside. Also, we get to see him wearing glasses (and god is he ever generic-looking in them).

So the story really isn't that terrible.

Wait... why is he wearing glasses?

Does he have contacts in half the time?

TMSIDR

2010-01-03, 07:25

Wait... why is he wearing glasses?

Does he have contacts in half the time?

He got them from Yuki as a tool against the data life form

I think that this can be called canon, because the story is by "Nagaru Tanigawa" so I suppose he gave some instructions what has to happen there.

But I don't think that this chapter is really great...

quigonkenny

2010-01-03, 07:39

He got them from Yuki as a tool against the data life form

I think that this can be called canon, because the story is by "Nagaru Tanigawa" so I suppose he gave some instructions what has to happen there.
Most of the time when there is an adapted work, the original author gets the "story" credit whether or not they have any say in the exact content. It's a CYA thing for the publisher as much as anything. I know that Tanigawa has actually done some writing for the anime (he got "script" credit for "Someday in the Rain", which means he at least wrote most of it) but he and original novel illustrator Noizi Ito get credited on every Haruhi-related adaptation (and product), so you have to be careful how much you read into it.

What is and is not canon is a fickle thing. The story in question is manga canon (at least this manga) but the only canon canon is what is set forth by the original work, which in this case is the novel series, of which the anime series (even including E8) is still the most faithful adaptation.

TMSIDR

2010-01-03, 10:54

You're probalby, but I think that Tanigawa was perhaps asked what happened stories might happen between the official ones and he just gave out out some general ideas that were then extended by the manga author. The manga till volume 4 changes and extends some stuff but nothing that really changes the "big picture" I think. "Mysterique Sign Returns" really doesn't give much new information or shocking developments so it really doesn't matter if it's canon or not^^.

SealkidHaruhiism

2010-01-03, 15:16

Haruhi Light novels will rebirth....
With new covers by Noizi Ito.

bayoab

2010-01-03, 23:07

Here's what the previous post actually is talking about:
http://lightnovel.g.hatena.ne.jp/CAX/20091226/p1
For a limited time, they are going to be re-publishing novels 1-9 with a new set of covers which line up to be the image contained above.

OkamiNoKaze

2010-01-03, 23:37

With Glasses, Kyon looks even more like The present Dr. Who.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-04, 01:18

The Eleventh Doctor wears glasses? :heh:

OkamiNoKaze

2010-01-04, 10:36

The David Tennent one, not sure if that's the present one, I could have sworn he wore glasses a few times.

Sute443

2010-01-04, 14:46

The David Tennent one, not sure if that's the present one, I could have sworn he wore glasses a few times.

Tennant was the Tenth Doctor. His run is over (ended on New Year's Day).

Tenth did wear glasses a few times, but looking at the manga, I don't really see a resemblance between him and glasses!Kyon. It might be the chin. They are very different.

quigonkenny

2010-01-04, 17:27

Tennant was the Tenth Doctor. His run is over (ended on New Year's Day).

Tenth did wear glasses a few times, but looking at the manga, I don't really see a resemblance between him and glasses!Kyon. It might be the chin. They are very different.
I don't have the fourth manga, and haven't seen glasses!Kyon, but generally manga!Kyon is a bit more "animated" (less realistic, less dour) than anime!- or novel!Kyon, and that does give him a bit of a resemblance to the very animated Tennant-as-Doctor.

It's not anything I'd go, "Hey, he looks just like Doctor Who!" over, but I can understand where someone could pick out a resemblance...

Heatth

2010-01-21, 09:33

I am surprised no one posted yet, but Baka-Tsuki received a C&D letter from Hachette Book Group (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3169).

Yeah, that sucks.

I wonder what will happen if when the 10th book be released. I mean, can Hachette Book Group stop a possible translation? Actually, don't they only have th right to the first 4 novel? Can they send a C&D for the 5th book onward?

I guess I can only hope someone else translate the eventual Vol. 10. And that they don't get shut down in the process.

bayoab

2010-01-21, 09:52

Actually, don't they only have th right to the first 4 novel? Can they send a C&D for the 5th book onward?
They have rights and first option on the entire series.

Heatth

2010-01-21, 10:15

I see. A pitty.

Tabasco

2010-01-21, 12:49

That is a shame. Here's hoping this doesn't turn out like Shana did, with only a couple books out before termination.

keri

2010-01-21, 13:01

It's kind of annoying that it's going to take so long to get 3-9 out in English, and now I can't read them while I wait for official translations. :( I should've saved them while I could. (Though I guess maybe I can do some googling when I get home from work.)

Boredom isn't due to be released until July of this year, right? And then of course Disappearance won't be until at least December, probably January or February of next year. I think it's eight months between releases. :/

At least I can pre-order Boredom now. I'm really looking forward to the cover design getting released finally. I love the paperback designs, and even though I prefer hardbacks for my personal library because they tend to last a little longer, I had to get the softcovers of Melancholy and Sighs because of the awesome cover design.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-21, 15:30

That is a shame. Here's hoping this doesn't turn out like Shana did, with only a couple books out before termination.

This is what's gonna happen. Light novels don't sell well enough to make them worth translating.

I think it's eight months between releases. :/

And why it does I'll never understand. An unprofessional, unpaid team of college and high school students can produce a readable if not completely accurate translation in two or three months, working during their free time. A professional team whose job it is to translate these things takes eight months, working presumably most of the time.

Um.

Well, they're probably involved with other projects at the same time, but still...

quigonkenny

2010-01-21, 15:52

And why it does I'll never understand. An unprofessional, unpaid team of college and high school students can produce a readable if not completely accurate translation in two or three months, working during their free time. A professional team whose job it is to translate these things takes eight months, working presumably most of the time.

Um.

Well, they're probably involved with other projects at the same time, but still...
Publishing books just takes time period. I have a friend who's an author, and it's always months and months after he's sent in the final manuscript before it finally reaches print. He's got a book coming out in February that he's had written since at least this time last year. Don't know why, but that's how it is.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-21, 16:15

Publishing books just takes time period. I have a friend who's an author, and it's always months and months after he's sent in the final manuscript before it finally reaches print. He's got a book coming out in February that he's had written since at least this time last year. Don't know why, but that's how it is.

...I see. So this must be one explanation for the increasing popularity of digital distribution.

If publishing companies could produce books faster, they'd be able to fight the growing advent of those satanic eBook readers, and we might actually get Vol. 10 in English before 2046.

Guernsey

2010-01-21, 16:23

What happens in Volume 10 ? Can someone give a summary in spoilers?

GDB

2010-01-21, 16:29

What happens in Volume 10 ? Can someone give a summary in spoilers?

The world ends and then resets back to volume 1's first chapter. The last page is Tanigawa rolling around in money while laughing at the reader.

In other words, it's not out yet, so there obviously aren't any spoilers or summaries.

Nappy Hared Azn

2010-01-21, 16:49

Really? I heard that Vol. 10 was about Koizumi finally getting some alone time with Kyon.

SgtHydra

2010-01-21, 17:29

keri

2010-01-21, 18:13

This is what's gonna happen. Light novels don't sell well enough to make them worth translating.

And why it does I'll never understand. An unprofessional, unpaid team of college and high school students can produce a readable if not completely accurate translation in two or three months, working during their free time. A professional team whose job it is to translate these things takes eight months, working presumably most of the time.

Um.

Well, they're probably involved with other projects at the same time, but still...

In addition to what quigonkenny said, you also have to consider the time it takes to get the books typeset, printed, and shipped. Also, the translation has to be approved by Kadokawa, which probably adds to the time, if they're getting the same person (group of people) to do the translation for each book - they can't exactly be working on all nine at once.

On the other hand, I assume that the book designs are already done for the whole series - it'd make more sense to do all nine covers at once, for example, to ensure a uniform appearance (which is key in a series), so there shouldn't be a time delay due to waiting for cover approval. Likewise, interior design is pretty standard - same typefaces for chapter headings and for text and so on, so the text just needs to be plugged in to the template. (Though, I guess, you're going to need someone to examine the proofs to make sure there's an acceptable number of screw-ups.)

There's also cleaning of the illustrations to change the text from Japanese to English, but I'd think that Kadokawa would have textless versions for the Yen Press (or whichever group handles that part) to do. And it'd probably be done at the same time as the translating?

Anyway, my point is that there are definitely legitimate reasons to not have all 9 books published at once (well, it could have been done, but that's not really a good use of capital) and for there to be significant delays between them.

But eight months feels like a long time between books, all things considered, and that means (8 × 9 = 72...) 6 years for all of them. It didn't even take 6 years for Tanigawa to write them, did it? It was 2003 - 2007, no? I wish that it were 3 months or even 6 months between books instead.

Or at least let fan translations hang around for the currently-without-official-version books, since it's not like we're waiting for entirely new books to get written. They already exist, just not in English.

I can read French, though, so maybe I'll see if I can find French fan-translations for re-reading and memory-refreshing purposes, until I can get legit English versions.

ALSO! I know this is getting long, but: is it just me, or does this get folks' hopes up that #10 might be finally released this spring/summer? There was the re-airing last summer, and the movie next month, and now Hachette is cracking down on the translations. Maybe coincidence and timing, but dang I want Astonishment so much. :heh:

Heatth

2010-01-21, 18:41

Or at least let fan translations hang around for the currently-without-official-version books, since it's not like we're waiting for entirely new books to get written. They already exist, just not in English.

I can read French, though, so maybe I'll see if I can find French fan-translations for re-reading and memory-refreshing purposes, until I can get legit Englishversions.

Actually. You can still find the other language translation on Baka-Tsuki, including the French one. Only the Spanish version is complete, however. (The French version only have Vol.1 complete, and parts of Vol2 to Vol4)

Anyway, finding the english translation on the internet is really trivial. So we don't really lost much for now. It is still very sad, however.

ALSO! I know this is getting long, but: is it just me, or does this get folks' hopes up that #10 might be finally released this spring/summer? There was the re-airing last summer, and the movie next month, and now Hachette is cracking down on the translations. Maybe coincidence and timing, but dang I want Astonishment so much. :heh:

While I hope you are correct, I can't see relation. I believe they might really be waiting the movie (I tought the might release by the end of the re-airing). But the C&D has nothing to do with what happen in Japan, me thinks.

keri

2010-01-21, 19:22

Actually. You can still find the other language translation on Baka-Tsuki, including the French one. Only the Spanish version is complete, however. (The French version only have Vol.1 complete, and parts of Vol2 to Vol4)

Anyway, finding the english translation on the internet is really trivial. So we don't really lost much for now. It is still very sad, however.

Ah, when I went to B-T earlier, I thought it looked like the entire Haruhi section had been scrubbed clean, though I didn't really look very hard. And I did find the English versions via Google after posting that, once I remembered how to use Google. But I feel weird about saving the versions I found, you know? (Also, I have to do some reformatting with what I found to make it more readable, and I'm lazylazylazy.)

While I hope you are correct, I can't see relation. I believe they might really be waiting the movie (I tought the might release by the end of the re-airing). But the C&D has nothing to do with what happen in Japan, me thinks.

Yeah, it's a long shot but I really want Astonishment to come out, you know? I'm kind of seeing everything as a maybe possibly lead-up to the novel's release. :uhoh:

edkedkedk

2010-01-21, 19:52

This is such a disappointment. I bookmarked the link so I can read them all whenever I have free time (because I play the scenes out in my head like the anime, it takes a long time), and now everything's gone from BT :upset:

I can understand why they were asked to C&D, but seriously, these translations help non-Japanese speaking fans appreciate Haruhi more, and thus create more money for the series. Especially when, like y'all have mentioned, it takes so long for an official translation.

bayoab

2010-01-21, 20:18

Boredom isn't due to be released until July of this year, right? And then of course Disappearance won't be until at least December, probably January or February of next year. I think it's eight months between releases. :/When I asked them originally, they said 2x per year (6 months between releases). I believe this delay is simply because vol 3 takes place during July and thus vol 4 will be out in December. i.e. They pushed it back a couple of months just to be silly with the timeline.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-21, 20:21

They pushed it back a couple of months just to be silly with the timeline.

Volume 5 confirmed for August? :P

Guernsey

2010-01-21, 20:50

Solachinx

2010-01-21, 23:02

Ah, that sucks. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner (S&W came out just recently, right? Haruhi's been out for about a pregnancy's worth, and it's just now being taken off of B-T?)

@edkedkedk: Well, this goes with the corporate thinking that all online distributers are evil sacriligious criminals and must be stopped for fear of going bankrupt. While it is true that there are people who use these products without ever giving back, these cases are few and far inbetween. Thankfully, the actual artist/creator usually has a mind outside the dull world of plum-pudding and realises the flaw with this thinking. Most exectives, however, don't.

That's not to say I despise Hatchette Book Group because of this, but this is usually how it is. Now, if you excuse me, I must make incredibly concieted and jaundiced speeches elsewhere, good citezen.

Seitsuki

2010-01-22, 04:38

edkedkedk

2010-01-22, 10:49

This reminds me of what happened in Singapore with Odex. Except with Odex, you can legitly hate them cos they're assholes prosecuting school kids for 1000s while their own products suck to hell. Hatchette are probably just trying to prevent a post-release flood of people going online to search for translations, which is understandable enough I guess.
But still gay.

Lol@Odex. Trying to corner their own market by suing kids.

I can see why the author/KyoAni wouldn't mind the free English translation. After all, they own the whole franchise, and the demand for more Haruhi products through the translations will help them one way or the other. As for Hatchette, they only have the English translations to bank on, so it's understandable that they want to protect their own market.

But yeah, it still sucks.

TMSIDR

2010-01-22, 18:10

I don't have a problem with the fan translations got forbidden but then they should at least try to push the light novels faster into the market. Moren than six months between releaes is really too long. I'm not really sure if the Haruhi franchise will be equally successful in 3 years when Japan already loves the next big thing and the international fnas normally follow the trend. It depends how much Kadokawa will try to keep the franchise alive, for example by producing more animes, but without more eontent from Japan the demand for the light novels will go back.

quigonkenny

2010-01-22, 18:27

What, no one thinks they're taking as long as they are because...oh, I don't know...they don't want to rush them and release a poor quality product? Are we all that pessimistic?

TMSIDR

2010-01-22, 19:04

What, no one thinks they're taking as long as they are because...oh, I don't know...they don't want to rush them and release a poor quality product? Are we all that pessimistic?

8 months for 200 pages? Many authors have a higher output and they have to come up with everything. I don't say they have to push them monthly on the market, but every 4 months should be possible. Don't forget that this Hachette and they should have the resources.

GMT

2010-01-24, 14:21

8 months for 200 pages? Many authors have a higher output and they have to come up with everything. I don't say they have to push them monthly on the market, but every 4 months should be possible. Don't forget that this Hachette and they should have the resources.
But do they have the resources to spend on what is a product for a relatively tiny niche market? Let's face it The Da Vinci Code Haruhi ain't. An online fan-translation site probably represents one of the largest competitors with the Hachette Book Group in the "Translated-to-English Japanese light novel" market.

I only bought the English-translated light novels because I liked the franchise that much. If I weren't more than casually interested, I would've been happy to pirate them off BT. I can completely see where they were coming from, and why they're taking so long to produce each book.

quigonkenny

2010-01-24, 23:13

But do they have the resources to spend on what is a product for a relatively tiny niche market? Let's face it The Da Vinci Code Haruhi ain't. An online fan-translation site probably represents one of the largest competitors with the Hachette Book Group in the "Translated-to-English Japanese light novel" market.

I only bought the English-translated light novels because I liked the franchise that much. If I weren't more than casually interested, I would've been happy to pirate them off BT. I can completely see where they were coming from, and why they're taking so long to produce each book.
Not to mention how long were we expecting Dan Brown's latest sequel to Da Vinci Code? And there had been details leaked for that one long before a date was even announced. Face it, TMSIDR, books taking a long time to reach market is just a factor of the business, and it's not on the author/translator end. And unlike someone like, say, Stephen King, who can spit out a book in a week and write another every couple months while that one's waiting to be published, Hachette's translation team may not be able to work on more than one at a time.

AmyElizzabeth

2010-01-24, 23:41

Damn. No more translations?
Hm. Wish I knew Japanese...

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-24, 23:51

You'll get a translation... every eight months. Because this series is known for the number "8." :p

AmyElizzabeth

2010-01-24, 23:59

You'll get a translation... every eight months. Because this series is known for the number "8." :p

D:
I meant for 10...:'(
I'll bet you anything that there'll be someone out there who translates it somewhere.
Although highly unlikely.

keri

2010-01-25, 01:02

D:
I meant for 10...:'(
I'll bet you anything that there'll be someone out there who translates it somewhere.
Although highly unlikely.

At the rate it's going, by the time 10 comes out, Hachette/Yen Press/Little, Brown will be caught up on the translations for 1-9 and we'll see it shortly afterwards at a delay more akin to DVD delays. :rolleyes:

edkedkedk

2010-01-25, 07:56

ultimatemegax

2010-01-25, 08:12

I went to my local Collectibles shop (is that what they call them these days?) and I chatted with some of the people there. One of them told me something that's quite baffling.

Apparently, 10 novels are all that's going to be published in the whole Haruhi series. Which basically means Vol. 10 is the last novel of them all. I didn't get his source though, but yeah, you can imagine my surprise.

Is there any truth to this? Anyone heard something like this? It would amaze me that the author would stop at just 10, when Haruhi's such a big cash-spinner...

Pure speculation by fans. There is nothing that states that the series will end in 10 novels, it's just a round number that would seem to fit. If you add the fact that the novel was supposed to have been released in 2007 and still hasn't been finished, there was plenty of time for a rumor to get spread (much like the "Kyoani troll" thing).

In news, the 9 limited edition covers can be ordered for a limited time from February 1st to April 30th according to the official website. No news on how to apply, but that should be forthcoming soon. I also love the fact that the kanji for the promotion is "replacement clothes."

Edit: Found covers from Kadokawa's website!
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200303000354.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200307000174.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200310000195.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200403000353.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200404000293.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200408000069.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200505000060.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200601000523.jpghttp://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/200609000124.jpg

Melancholy-Sigh-Boredom-Vanishment-Rampage
Indignation-Intrigue-Anger-Dissociation

Heatth

2010-01-25, 09:22

quigonkenny

2010-01-25, 13:19

It is just bad they cut Kyon off, tough. :( He is the main character, he deserve more repect. Also, giving the japanese reading order (right from left) I can't even say if Kyon is on the back cover. =/
Frankly I think it's fitting. The story from day one is Kyon being screwed over. Why shouldn't the covers reflect that?

And if you notice, there's at least one female on each cover. Kadokawa knows cute girls make money.

ultimatemegax

2010-01-25, 13:31

Nice found. The cuts are very interesting. The character on the cover make sense for most of them (they even match Sasaki, Kuyoh and Kyouko in their debut books). But having The SCP and Kimidori together in a cover that is not Anger is just weird. :heh: I also find interesting Yuki is separeted from the rest of the brigade (and by Fugiwara, of all people).

It is just bad they cut Kyon off, tough. :( He is the main character, he deserve more repect. Also, giving the japanese reading order (right from left) I can't even say if Kyon is on the back cover. =/

I will check later, but given the fact that Live A Live takes place in Indignation with the ENOZ problem, you could make a case that the SCP may be involved a little bit with the story. Kyon is actually on the inner cover of Melancholy to the left of Haruhi. He's cut off from the main cover, but if you take the cover out as well as to the far right, you'd get a bigger (and the whole) picture as seen earlier. When I get to a computer that actually can edit pictures, I'll put the whole thing together. Agreed that Anger's cover is confusing.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-25, 14:06

Pure speculation by fans. There is nothing that states that the series will end in 10 novels, it's just a round number that would seem to fit.

I'm pretty sure it's true, though, at this point. It'd be in line with the long stream of disappointments lately.

ultimatemegax

2010-01-25, 16:36

keri

2010-01-25, 18:30

Under the spoiler bar is the big image formed with all 9 covers. It's quite table-breaking, so that's why it's under the bar. Same format as before
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/OverlappingCoversText.jpg

The images of Boredom and Indignation don't synch perfectly with the others, and Anger's right side is faded unlike the left side of Dissociation. Other than that, it works well.

I still can't figure out why on earth "Fujiwara" is on the cover of Boredom. I mean, that's who it is, right? The other anti-SOS are included, so I figure he would be, too, but why there?

Also, the more I look at the whole image, the more I like that Sasaki and Kyon are going in different directions and are on complete opposite ends. It might mean nothing, but it feels a little bit symbolic to me, and I like it.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-25, 18:42

dragon4dudes

2010-01-25, 18:59

I vaguely remember seeing those pictures linked up together as a single picture somewhere....

bayoab

2010-01-25, 19:31

I vaguely remember seeing those pictures linked up together as a single picture somewhere....Maybe here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2851894#post2851894)?

ultimatemegax

2010-01-25, 19:45

Maybe here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2851894#post2851894)?

Here's a bigger version I found previously:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/Newoverlappingcover.jpg
I attempted to match the covers with this preview, but there are some alterations.
The top of the image was cropped off, along with most of Kyon (but I think that he'll be in the inner cover). That pretty much prevented me from matching everything up 1-to-1, so I made the best one I could given the source image.

Oh, and I hereby reject my statement earlier about the SCP and Kimidori in Indignation. Elections may have been held following the festival according to Anger.

bayoab

2010-01-25, 20:00

Hmm... noting the guard rail/fence, is it a circular poster? Seems both ends would basically line up beside Kyon's hand possibly being partially cut off.

dragon4dudes

2010-01-25, 20:04

Oh yeah, thanks guys.

ultimatemegax

2010-01-25, 20:16

Hmm... noting the guard rail/fence, is it a circular poster? Seems both ends would basically line up beside Kyon's hand possibly being partially cut off.

It very well may possibly become that way if a person wanted it to become circular. I chose to use the first light pole as a nice break point and came up with this mockup:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/overlappingcoversedit.jpg
(The yellow is from the original scan of the article from the Sneaker which this came from, so please ignore that)

Sute443

2010-01-25, 21:09

Hmm... noting the guard rail/fence, is it a circular poster? Seems both ends would basically line up beside Kyon's hand possibly being partially cut off.

An interesting thought. I'd expand on it and speculate that it isn't complete yet, and was planned with novel 10 in mind. The rest of Kyon's hand could be on it.

Khu

2010-01-25, 21:16

lol.

"Noo! Not Kyon's hand! D:"

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-25, 21:23

10th cover features Kyon's hand and a currently unnamed girl confirmed? :p

dragon4dudes

2010-01-25, 21:53

Forgot about her momentarily. I was trying to figure out what could go into the 10th volume to have more characters in the picture. Lol I fail.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-25, 22:23

Another possibility would be Miyoko.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-25, 23:13

Is everyone forgetting the slider girl? :rolleyes:

Also, Miyoko has never had an illustration, although she appears once in the anime.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-25, 23:31

Who did you think I meant by "a currently unnamed girl"? :heh:

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-25, 23:39

Who did you think I meant by "a currently unnamed girl"? :heh:

Ah, right. Missed that post, sorry.

quigonkenny

2010-01-25, 23:45

10th cover features Kyon's hand and a currently unnamed girl confirmed? :p
Since the covers presumably don't include Kyon (even though the inner illustration does), Volume 10 could conceivably include Kyon and Slider-tan. By popular theory, that would mean that in the assembled picture, a different version of the same character appears twice twice.

also, miyoko has never had an illustration, although she appears once in the anime.
WARNING: RAMPANT FAN SPECULATION

Dang, Kaisos... First you're feeding the "10 and out" trolls and now you're stating unfounded rumor as fact. You feeling well?

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-26, 00:03

Dang, Kaisos... First you're feeding the "10 and out" trolls and now you're stating unfounded rumor as fact. You feeling well?

Oh come on, it's totally her in Melancholy VI. She's Kyon's Sister's friend, has a ponytail, and is noticeably taller than either the sister or her other friend. That or my memory is failing me.

If KyoAni put Sakanaka into the anime, I'm pretty sure they could put Miyoko in.

And I'm feeding the "Novel 10 in the finale" trolls because given Kadokawa's track record with this series, it's probably going to be.

quigonkenny

2010-01-26, 00:24

Oh come on, it's totally her in Melancholy VI. She's Kyon's Sister's friend, has a ponytail, and is noticeably taller than either the sister or her other friend. That or my memory is failing me.

If KyoAni put Sakanaka into the anime, I'm pretty sure they could put Miyoko in.

And I'm feeding the "Novel 10 in the finale" trolls because given Kadokawa's track record with this series, it's probably going to be.
I am no longer armed with my "quote fu" or else I would find some in-novel way to refute your baseless argument that that slightly taller (or slightly closer) girl in yellow is Miyoko (thank you Hachette). ^_^

As for Sakanaka, she does appear in the novels (in one pic, I believe, but enough to verify the character design), and more importantly she's in Kyon and Haruhi's class. We have just as much of a chance seeing her in classroom background shots as we do Kunikida or Taniguchi, or Ryoko before she "moves to Canada", so if KyoAni didn't put her in there, they'd lose their status as the continuity whores that they are. Actually, I think she gets more background shots than the other three. Seems like every time there's an establishing shot, she worms herself in there somewhere. She's like the Sheila Jackson Lee of Haruhi (local politics joke you're not expected to get).

Now if you get me some proof that Ito approved the character design for that obviously-the-same-age-as-Imouto girl in yellow, I'll allow it.

keri

2010-01-26, 00:28

He's only there so people can make comparisons between him and Koizumi. Or something. :p

Besides, Big Mikuru, Kimidori, SCP, and Arakawa are also on covers for books that don't feature them, so why single him out? :heh:

Eh, I wasn't concerned that the book doesn't feature him so much as that he's on the cover of the third book, when there is no sign of him in the story until the sixth book. Or seventh. I forget which one is which. (It feels a bit like a spoiler, I guess. Or like putting, uhm, Sean Connery on a movie poster for Raiders of the Lost Ark. Or putting Luna Lovegood on a cover illustration for Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - both characters exist in-universe when these stories took place, but they don't actually appear for several installments, and people who haven't got to those installments yet will be completely unfamiliar with the characters. I guess it's kind of like false advertising, maybe?)

And I'm feeding the "Novel 10 in the finale" trolls because given Kadokawa's track record with this series, it's probably going to be.

I know there were rumors going around about the reason for the delay, but I've only heard about them way down the grapevine. One was about how much Tanigawa was getting in royalties, I think? Is there any weight to that one? Because if it is true, and there's a dispute about how much he gets from Kadokawa, I wouldn't be surprised if he ties everything up with #10, even if only out of spite.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-01-26, 00:32

SCP is a few books early, as well...

keri

2010-01-26, 00:36

SCP is a few books early, as well...

Ah, so he is. I shall include him whenever I start going "huh?" at the order of the characters from now on. I have trouble remembering which books tell which stories from 6-9, they all take place in such a short time span and get all muddled.

quigonkenny

2010-01-26, 00:51

Eh, I wasn't concerned that the book doesn't feature him so much as that he's on the cover of the third book, when there is no sign of him in the story until the sixth book. Or seventh. I forget which one is which. (It feels a bit like a spoiler, I guess. Or like putting, uhm, Sean Connery on a movie poster for Raiders of the Lost Ark. Or putting Luna Lovegood on a cover illustration for Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - both characters exist in-universe when these stories took place, but they don't actually appear for several installments, and people who haven't got to those installments yet will be completely unfamiliar with the characters. I guess it's kind of like false advertising, maybe?)
Seventh book, but he possibly appears off-screen in the sixth (it's unknown who exactly is in that van at the time).

Don't know if those two are the best examples to use, as they're arguably the two most enjoyable characters in their respective series (with Luna it's not even close). "Fujiwara" is interesting, but I don't know if he's even the most interesting member of the anti-Dan...

A better example might be putting Faramir on the cover of the Fellowship of the Ring poster.

PastPrime

2010-01-26, 11:56

I hate to bring up a different subject, but I have been thinking about something. Haruhi's power is to make changes in her world or create a new world. Yuki used that power to create a world where she could have Kyon. While the Anti SOS DAN thinks that Haruhi has the powers that should belong to Sasaki, perhaps they just don't recognize Sasaki's power. Given that the Time line splits right after the meeting between Haruhi and Sasaki, perhaps that is her power in action. To split the Time line so that she can get Kyon in one of them.

keri

2010-01-26, 13:17

Seventh book, but he possibly appears off-screen in the sixth (it's unknown who exactly is in that van at the time).

Don't know if those two are the best examples to use, as they're arguably the two most enjoyable characters in their respective series (with Luna it's not even close). "Fujiwara" is interesting, but I don't know if he's even the most interesting member of the anti-Dan...

A better example might be putting Faramir on the cover of the Fellowship of the Ring poster.

Ah, those were the first two series that came to mind that other people would also be familiar with. I've never seen/read the LotR stuff, because just seeing Fellowship out of the corner of my eye while my sister watched it for a religion class bored me to tears. (I'm not a fan of high fantasy, generally.)

The one that did come to mind that would be more appropriate would be an example from the Bloody Jack series, except I'd wager that very very few other people who hang around here would know what I'm talking about.

Also, I did believe that it was "Fujiwara" in the van in volume 6. Was it Kyon who speculated it later, thus giving me the impression that he was there, or was that all me (and maybe also speculation on this board)?

While the Anti SOS DAN thinks that Haruhi has the powers that should belong to Sasaki, perhaps they just don't recognize Sasaki's power. Given that the Time line splits right after the meeting between Haruhi and Sasaki, perhaps that is her power in action. To split the Time line so that she can get Kyon in one of them.

Ehhh... I don't think that's an example of anyone's power. I think that's just an example of the parallel universe theory in action. Or is it the multiple universe theory? I know this was discussed in another thread, a long while back, about the difference between those terms. Probably the reason we have the two time lines and are shown them both in the book is just to introduce the character who can go move from one to the other. (And also to show that Haruhi > Sasaki or whatever.)

Kaisos Erranon

2010-01-26, 14:18

Ehhh... I don't think that's an example of anyone's power. I think that's just an example of the parallel universe theory in action. Or is it the multiple universe theory? I know this was discussed in another thread, a long while back, about the difference between those terms. Probably the reason we have the two time lines and are shown them both in the book is just to introduce the character who can go move from one to the other. (And also to show that Haruhi > Sasaki or whatever.)

It's called the "many-worlds interpretation", and given the way the time travelers describe their abilities and their mission, it probably isn't the way the Haruhi universe works.

AmyElizzabeth

2010-01-26, 16:58

Given that the Time line splits right after the meeting between Haruhi and Sasaki, perhaps that is her power in action. To split the Time line so that she can get Kyon in one of them.

I'm not thinking that..Sasaki is said to not like love at all, whereas Haruhi doesn't like it but she says she has her thoughts about it (or something..)
But, I do agree that It could be splitting the time line, but not for Kyon.

orangejuicetang

2010-01-26, 23:01

FDW

2010-01-27, 02:24

Despite the fact that I understand why, the shutting down of Baka-tsuki's translations still depresses me, even though I brought the books. Like somebody else mentioned earlier, I probably wouldn't have brought the books if I didn't like what I read over at baka-tsuki so much. And also, it makes me slightly sad, because I'm remember reading it at baka-tsuki when Haruhi was their only project and was still unfinished. But like I said, I understand their reasons.

As for why volume 10 hasn't come out yet, I came up with a conspiracy theory that the author actually died and Kadowa's just hiding the news. Then that thought depressed me so much that I tried to forget about it.

One idea that I came up with about Volume 10 is that it was originally the second half of the 9th book, but Kadokawa forced him to split up the book, (I believe this was mentioned here before) Now what was going to become the 10 book I believe consisted of the last 30-40% of book 9, and the author was trying and failing to come up with ways to expand the book, so the publisher gave him more time. However writers block proved to big of an enemy for Tanigawa, so he gave up, and started pursuing other ideas, (there are other works he's done, I've seen one on Mangafox, I can say that It's quite unusual) now sometime in the last few months he finally started coming back to the series, (probably out of a level of fan and editorial pressure) now this makes me believe this, book 10 will probably not the end the series, but I doubt it will be what people will expect.

edkedkedk

2010-01-27, 04:00

One idea that I came up with about Volume 10 is that it was originally the second half of the 9th book, but Kadokawa forced him to split up the book, (I believe this was mentioned here before) Now what was going to become the 10 book I believe consisted of the last 30-40% of book 9, and the author was trying and failing to come up with ways to expand the book, so the publisher gave him more time. However writers block proved to big of an enemy for Tanigawa, so he gave up, and started pursuing other ideas, (there are other works he's done, I've seen one on Mangafox, I can say that It's quite unusual) now sometime in the last few months he finally started coming back to the series, (probably out of a level of fan and editorial pressure) now this makes me believe this, book 10 will probably not the end the series, but I doubt it will be what people will expect.

There are conspiracy theories, both in and out of Haruhi's world :heh:

It has to be hard to keep coming up with stories for Haruhi, given the high standards Tanigawa has set for himself. With Maths equations, philosophy concepts and even murder mysteries, he sure has his hands full (though he's kinda like a geek about these things). The Anti-SOS Brigade expanded more possibilities for him to write about, and Haruhi and gang are just in their 2nd year of school (3rd for Mikuru), so I'm not really sure if failure to expand the book is something that would trouble him...

Khu

2010-01-27, 04:06

I think he got overwhelmed by the pairings.

*nod*

FDW

2010-01-27, 04:51

There are conspiracy theories, both in and out of Haruhi's world :heh:

It has to be hard to keep coming up with stories for Haruhi, given the high standards Tanigawa has set for himself. With Maths equations, philosophy concepts and even murder mysteries, he sure has his hands full (though he's kinda like a geek about these things). The Anti-SOS Brigade expanded more possibilities for him to write about, and Haruhi and gang are just in their 2nd year of school (3rd for Mikuru), so I'm not really sure if failure to expand the book is something that would trouble him...

No I agree about what you said, expanding the story would be no problem for Tanigawa, but at same time It's very possible to be overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices you have, and I think that's what happened in 2007, the editors didn't like the path he had chosen and he was forced to choose a new one, and thus ended up coming up blank. (It happens to writers all time, and this is speaking from personal experience) And on another note, I wonder if Tanigawa ended up recycling some of his ideas for the 10th book into his other works?

ultimatemegax

2010-01-27, 08:03

So hey, the novels are out on sale in Japan. Here's a picture:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/1264593929.jpg

Tabasco

2010-01-27, 10:43

That is neat. I wasn't sure how well that would work in practice, but I do like it.

As for the delay, is it not possible that he just took a sabbatical from the whole thing as mentioned? If I remember correctly, he's been doing Haruhi nonstop for years, and that doesn't count the work put in on the anime. It would make more sense than suggesting some sort of editorial or marketing conspiracy to do...something. What exactly the delay was supposed to accomplish I never quite got.

B2-Lancer

2010-01-27, 12:18

SgtHydra

2010-01-27, 13:06

Greetings!

This is a nice place. Thanks for running a clean ship!

Does the anime or manga ever hint that Nagato is actually an "Avatar" of the Data Entity instead of an actual self-possessed "being"?

Thanks!

In a sense, she is both.

Nagato is an "avatar" in the sense that she is the Data Entity's eyes, ears, and feet on the ground, and while she is supposed to follow any and all orders/commands given to her, she does possess free will.

A good part of the series is about that free will becoming more and more expressed.

ZODDGUTS

2010-02-05, 02:16

As for why volume 10 hasn't come out yet, I came up with a conspiracy theory that the author actually died and Kadowa's just hiding the news. Then that thought depressed me so much that I tried to forget about it.

So I guess he's ghost is somehow writing the story of this manga:

http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=46871

Pretty good mystery murder series that also has hawt incest

FDW

2010-02-05, 02:37

So I guess he's ghost is somehow writing the story of this manga:

http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=46871

Pretty good mystery murder series that also has hawt incest

Seconded, I like the all the weird mindfuck flying around.

quigonkenny

2010-02-05, 02:39

Seconded, I like the all the weird mindfuck flying around.
Well, we know the man can write. Gives me hopes for all my twisted theories for Volume 10. Fufufufufu...

bhl88

2010-02-05, 11:09

The only possible girl I know is... (the new member)

edkedkedk

2010-02-05, 12:36

Well, we know the man can write. Gives me hopes for all my twisted theories for Volume 10. Fufufufufu...

For a man who comes up with all those Haruhi stories, you know that he has some... interesting ideas floating around in his head regularly :heh:

Marina2

2010-02-07, 08:20

So hey, the novels are out on sale in Japan. Here's a picture:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/1264593929.jpg

New cover for novels???

Any one have the scan of each books cover??

ultimatemegax

2010-02-11, 12:17

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-11, 12:37

A flower? Well, I guess it makes sense...

edkedkedk

2010-02-11, 13:15

... What?

Compared to Noizi Ito's illustrated covers, this is rubbish. When on Earth does the flower come into play in this novel?!

Kaisos Erranon

2010-02-11, 13:29

... What?

Compared to Noizi Ito's illustrated covers, this is rubbish. When on Earth does the flower come into play in this novel?!

Unlike Sigh and Melancholy, this book doesn't have a central theme tying it together, except for maybe "summer", so I guess a flower works.

My only question is what they're gonna do for Vol. 4... maybe Yuki's glasses?

GDB

2010-02-11, 13:33

My only question is what they're gonna do for Vol. 4... maybe Yuki's glasses?

Snowflake, perhaps?

edkedkedk

2010-02-11, 13:35

Unlike Sigh and Melancholy, this book doesn't have a central theme tying it together, except for maybe "summer", so I guess a flower works.

My only question is what they're gonna do for Vol. 4... maybe Yuki's glasses?

As a added effect, they'll remove the Haruhi silhouette from the cover. After all it IS the Disappearance of Suzumiya Haruhi :heh:

quigonkenny

2010-02-11, 13:45

My only question is what they're gonna do for Vol. 4... maybe Yuki's glasses?
A bookmark, maybe?

darksassin

2010-02-11, 14:26

A computer, or a nanogun perhaps? Or maybe a book, hyperion to be exact?

Vexx

2010-02-11, 16:47

Just finished the second volume of the english translation of the Haruhi light novel series.

I have to say Kyon annoys the hell out of me with his abject stubborn desire to be stupid. :) However... it simultaneously makes for an interesting ride as well as the desire to hit him when he refuses to make decisions I might make :)

I guess I didn't really notice his antics so much when I was trying to translate the original works.

AmyElizzabeth

2010-02-11, 17:38

Yeah, Kyon never really pissed me off until I got the english versions.
Maybe, I think novel 4 will have a snowflake up top ;)

quigonkenny

2010-02-11, 20:01

I have to say Kyon annoys the hell out of me with his abject stubborn desire to be stupid. :) However... it simultaneously makes for an interesting ride as well as the desire to hit him when he refuses to make decisions I might make :)

I guess I didn't really notice his antics so much when I was trying to translate the original works.Yeah, Kyon never really pissed me off until I got the english versions.
I've found that capacity for enjoying Kyon's antics has an inverse relationship to the reader's focus on the romantic portion of the series. I've always read/watched the series as quirky comedic science fiction with a richly coherent setting (with any holes placed intentionally as discussion points and/or future plot hooks) that just happens to have a (variably) subtle romantic undercurrent, so I enjoy him immensely.

But I've never been much of a shipper.

AmyElizzabeth

2010-02-11, 20:18

I enjoy him most of the time, but when he's complaining (which is also most of the time), It gets pretty annoying.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Kyon, but the complaints are what sorta makes me not like him as much as I should.
The same goes for Haruhi, I love her, but when she's all molest-y and stuff, I hate her. But only that aspect.
IMHO, I think the general wittiness of this series was portrayed better in the novel

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-11, 21:37

I've said it before: The novels are a large part of why I don't like Kyon. And I don't even particularly care about the romance aspect of the series, he just comes off as a jerk most of the time. :heh:

AmyElizzabeth

2010-02-11, 22:22

To everyone, actually.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from, I'm just saying that alot of the humor and stuff was portrayed better in the novels

keri

2010-02-11, 23:23

I was looking through Amazon Japan, and I came across the english version of the novels being sold in Japan. Surprisingly, that's not what shocked me. What shocked me was that the cover art for the paperback version of Boredom was released on Amazon.com and no one had noticed yet. Here is the green cover for Boredom:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/31TzMdp-yXL_SS500_.jpg

... What?

Compared to Noizi Ito's illustrated covers, this is rubbish. When on Earth does the flower come into play in this novel?!

Oh, wow, that fits my expectations wonderfully. I'm an unabashed fan of the Kirk Benshoff's paperback covers. I'm positive I've mentioned my preference for them over the Ito ones before. I *love* the simple color with the stripes on the side (from the fold-back cover) and the play of the text in the title and the little graphic. I was kind of thinking Boredom would be deep blue or purple (dunno why exactly), but this green is lovely. And next to the red and yellow-orange of the other two, I bet Disappearance will be blue or purple.

Emily Anderson's typeface for Boredom is really nice, like the one for Melancholy (I'm not as crazy about the typeface used for Sigh). I'm interested in seeing how the gloss is used on it, and whether the texture in the text and next to the flower are printed or part of the gloss or what. (I love that the lightning bolts on Melancholy and some of the stars on Sigh are only visible when the light reflects just right.)

Anyway, the flower - if you look, it's a sunflower or something with bits coming off like a dandelion clock. It feels like a good choice for something to represent all the stories, especially since there isn't much that ties them together except for "summer" and "keeping Haruhi entertained". I like the pollen flying away, too, if that's what it is. (if that's not what it is, I will re-evaluate my opinion.) It feels like a nice metaphor of sorts, though I'm unable to come up with words to explain why I think so.

Also, the flower is in line with the thundercloud from Melancholy. It fits thematically, I'd say.

(I kind of wish that there were a hardcover version of the novels available with these paperback cover designs, because I love them so much. I like the Noizi Ito pictures, too, but I don't think they're as interesting or nice to look at. Plus, too much focus on the girls. I know cute girls sell things, but I like the series because of Kyon, not Haruhi.)

(Kirk Benshoff also did the cover design for The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, by Sherman Alexie, which I love. http://www.kirkbenshoff.com)

OkamiNoKaze

2010-02-12, 00:05

Wow, I had a guess it would be green

edkedkedk

2010-02-12, 12:23

I haven't read the officially published English translations of the books yet so I don't know how English!Kyon differs from the original. Judging from the comments here though, it's a good thing he doesn't speak English :heh:

I've found that capacity for enjoying Kyon's antics has an inverse relationship to the reader's focus on the romantic portion of the series. I've always read/watched the series as quirky comedic science fiction with a richly coherent setting (with any holes placed intentionally as discussion points and/or future plot hooks) that just happens to have a (variably) subtle romantic undercurrent, so I enjoy him immensely.

But I've never been much of a shipper.

It's the love/hate relationship I talked about in Yuki's thread. I really, really enjoy his comedy and the fact that he's the non-powered member in the SOS Brigade yet the one who wields the most power. However, Kyon is an absolute idiot when it comes to romance which supersedes whatever love I have for his comedy.

It's a simple trade-off, balance it if you will.

I've said it before: The novels are a large part of why I don't like Kyon. And I don't even particularly care about the romance aspect of the series, he just comes off as a jerk most of the time. :heh:

Word. Throw in some time spent on this forum with the images and fanfics, and you'll hate him.

PS: Wow, I thought you disliking Kyon was just a way of protecting Yuki. Never realized you really disliked him...

Oh, wow, that fits my expectations wonderfully. I'm an unabashed fan of the Kirk Benshoff's paperback covers. I'm positive I've mentioned my preference for them over the Ito ones before. I *love* the simple color with the stripes on the side (from the fold-back cover) and the play of the text in the title and the little graphic. I was kind of thinking Boredom would be deep blue or purple (dunno why exactly), but this green is lovely. And next to the red and yellow-orange of the other two, I bet Disappearance will be blue or purple.

Different preferences for different people, I guess. It's still a light novel after all, and I like mine with more pictures. But as they say, simplicity is genius!

keri

2010-02-12, 13:03

Different preferences for different people, I guess. It's still a light novel after all, and I like mine with more pictures. But as they say, simplicity is genius!

It's not like there aren't any pictures inside. ;)

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-12, 13:05

PS: Wow, I thought you disliking Kyon was just a way of protecting Yuki. Never realized you really disliked him...

One kinda caused the other... not sure which really came first, though. :heh:

M.Marangio

2010-02-16, 05:10

It seems that the fourth novel with new cover was sold out at some stores (blame the Disappearance movie).

Link (ads may be NSFW):
http://blog.livedoor.jp/geek/archives/50990459.html

ultimatemegax

2010-02-16, 09:36

It seems that the fourth novel with new cover was sold out at some stores (blame the Disappearance movie).

Link (ads may be NSFW):
http://blog.livedoor.jp/geek/archives/50990459.html

It's rather interesting that only the panorama cover is selling out when the one that isn't part of a set is still available.

I would like to preface my next comment with this statement: THIS IS NOT REAL. IT IS A FAKE! Someone on 2ch made a mock-up of what he/she thought the Surprise cover would look like in the panorama shot.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2972/suprisefakecover.jpg
I've even used a different host than my normal account to make sure everyone knows that THIS IS A FAKE so that there isn't a rumor going around that the cover's been released when it hasn't.

You can tell that the image wasn't meant to come together since the rails are off slightly by Sasaki and the pole by her is lower than the one by Kyon. Since we've had much discussion over whether the sides were supposed to come together, I thought this would be of interest to everyone.

quigonkenny

2010-02-16, 10:25

It's rather interesting that only the panorama cover is selling out when the one that isn't part of a set is still available.

I would like to preface my next comment with this statement: THIS IS NOT REAL. IT IS A FAKE! Someone on 2ch made a mock-up of what he/she thought the Surprise cover would look like in the panorama shot.
~snipped for great justice~
I've even used a different host than my normal account to make sure everyone knows that THIS IS A FAKE so that there isn't a rumor going around that the cover's been released when it hasn't.

You can tell that the image wasn't meant to come together since the rails are off slightly by Sasaki and the pole by her is lower than the one by Kyon. Since we've had much discussion over whether the sides were supposed to come together, I thought this would be of interest to everyone.
Sasaki is already on the cover to a previous volume. Surprise should be Kyon and Slider-tan.
You should probably change the filename for the picture to something obviously fake instead of "suprisemockup.jpg", which could be a legitimate (if misspelled) internal filename. Won't stop anyone who is intent on using it for trolling, but it may at least stop a few random Google Image hunters from making a mistaken assumption...

It's no DA or -ch(an), but the Animesuki forums do have a fair image presence on the net.

ultimatemegax

2010-02-16, 10:33

Sasaki is already on the cover to a previous volume. Surprise should be Kyon and Slider-tan.
You should probably change the filename for the picture to something obviously fake instead of "suprisemockup.jpg", which could be a legitimate (if misspelled) internal filename. Won't stop anyone who is intent on using it for trolling, but it may at least stop a few random Google Image hunters from making a mistaken assumption...

What a splendid idea! I have changed the link, however I cannot delete the old one since I do not have an account at that site, so hopefully it will be deleted soon due to no use. It would make sense to use that person to connect the panorama together even though Sasaki is on the cover of the normal edition. I haven't been able to see into an inner cover of the first one, so I do not know if Kyon is on that part or not which may solve this whole dilemma.

edkedkedk

2010-02-16, 14:06

Sasaki is already on the cover to a previous volume. Surprise should be Kyon and Slider-tan.
You should probably change the filename for the picture to something obviously fake instead of "suprisemockup.jpg", which could be a legitimate (if misspelled) internal filename. Won't stop anyone who is intent on using it for trolling, but it may at least stop a few random Google Image hunters from making a mistaken assumption...

It's no DA or -ch(an), but the Animesuki forums do have a fair image presence on the net.

I don't really get it, why is it that Slider guy/girl is such a popular choice for the contents of the Vol. 10? Has it actually been indicated somehow?

Coreyrn

2010-02-16, 14:43

I don't really get it, why is it that Slider guy/girl is such a popular choice for the contents of the Vol. 10? Has it actually been indicated somehow?

Maybe because Novel 9 was divided into alternating chapters of the same story in 2 variations. Which would be an indication for different dimensions and with that the possibility of a Slider appearing would be very high.

quigonkenny

2010-02-16, 17:30

I don't really get it, why is it that Slider guy/girl is such a popular choice for the contents of the Vol. 10? Has it actually been indicated somehow?
In Volume 9, along with the remaining Anti-dan characters we hadn't met previously (rival data entity Kuyou Suou and Kyon ex-classmate and possibly goddess Sasaki), we are introduced to an unnamed newly minted North High freshman in (I think?) the alpha storyline who some fans have taken to calling "Slider-tan", or "Slider Girl", etc. She is brought to the attention of the reader as being the only standout member of a group of freshman trying to join the SOS-dan at a Haruhi-led event. Previously, a young lady, calling Kyon "senpai" and popularly believed to be this same freshman, calls Kyon's house and has a short conversation with him.

What leads many to believe that she is a slider is that that phone call is the splitting off point of the two separate timelines throughout the novel. In the beta timeline, Sasaki calls to speak to Kyon instead, setting off a string of differences in a timeline that doesn't even seem to contain the aforementioned "Slider-tan". Since she appears to be the cause of the split (Sasaki appeared before the event in the original timeline, but no evidence of a Slider-tan existed beforehand in the alpha timeline, suggesting that her calling kept Sasaki from being able to contact Kyon) it is presumed that she has slider powers and has slipped into the alphaverse for some reason, presumably (as the last piece of Haruhi's wishlist) to remain after the end of Volume 10.

bhl88

2010-02-16, 18:10

Anyone who gets along with Haruhi or stops her from being bored is related to the 3 factions.

quigonkenny

2010-02-16, 19:19

Anyone who gets along with Haruhi or stops her from being bored is related to the 3 factions.
Or, arguably, a solitary slider. Think about it. In Haruhi's big introduction, she calls out four groups: aliens (Yuki), time travelers (Mikuru), espers (Itsuki) and sliders (undefined). Since then the subject of sliders has come up a few times, most recently in the prologue of Volume 9. (What a coincidence! ^_^)

And it makes sense for sliders to be an unconglomerated pack of loners. The only other "faction" that we've seen any type of organization in is Itsuki's Agency, and we don't even know how many of those people besides Itsuki are espers. Yuki has little to no interaction with her fellow interfaces (of course they could be texting each other in their heads and we wouldn't know) and poor Mikuru's only apparent companion is someone she's not allowed to see (and it's not even someone else)...

Sliders by nature would make sense as loners. The closest group to them in terms of nature are the time travelers (one could even be considered a subset of the other), so logically their form of travel would be similar. Grab the unwilling target passenger, do your thing and now you're both in a world where Hitler is a T-Rex. Voila. Large groups of sliders (cancelled Fox TV shows notwithstanding) don't make a lot of sense in-story.

Personally I'm seeing a (true) magical girl, complete with some kind of wand, a transformation sequence, and maybe a cute animal familiar. The prospective Slider-tan matches the character type, and real magic is the only realm that the series hasn't gotten into yet (unless you want to count Haruhi herself, which is arguable, or the Theater stories, which are only very questionably canon). Some might argue that it flies in the face of the setting, but I imagine Tanigawa could whip up a "sufficiently advanced" Nanoha-esque deconstruction that would fit well in-universe.

B2-Lancer

2010-02-16, 20:09

I haven't really kept up the series except in bits and pieces, but regarding "Slider-Girl", how aren't we sure she isn't just psychic? It seems really late in the game to introduce a slider even though one's suggested from the start. Haruhi's writer must've been awfully sure of him/herself that the series's popularity (of lack of) would even go 9 or 10 volumes before introducing an ultra-late character. Perhaps, in that case, the author might also be exploiting a built-in "oversight" hole in a "casual" slider mention early the novel/manga, kind of like George Lucas did with Star Wars as Guinness mentioned long ago; Lucas did Star Wars as a one-shot homage to old Flash Gordon serials (the REAL reason for that "Episode IV" rolling teaser) like American Graffiti was for the fifties before Star War's totally off the wall surprise success had Lucas scrambling to do a real set of sequels.

Also, if there's a slider, I wager there's a big outfit or government behind him or her to explain the tech enabling the slider unless we want to dip into magic which is a whole different neighborhood. Maybe they discovered that the infinite dimensions they used to cavort around suddenly aren't infinite anymore (like the 3 year thing). But I'm slowly coming around to the belief that Haruhi's not God, but a recipient of god-like powers since it seems they can be hijacked or circumvented by "underlings". I think a Big Kahuna's amusing him/herself.

IMHO,

bhl88

2010-02-16, 20:15

quigonkenny

2010-02-16, 21:14

Mori, Arakawa and Tamura Bros. = Organization members
Emiri Kimidori = Interface
Tsuruya-san: supporter of Organization
Student Council President: Organization-hired independent contractor
New member who looks like Yuki? = slider?

Corrected.

And I didn't get a Yuki image from her description. She certainly doesn't act like Yuki.

keri

2010-02-16, 22:06

I won't be surprised anymore if she's a slider. Refer to last post: Anyone who gets along with Haruhi is-

Mori, Arakawa and Tamura Bros. = Organization members
Emiri Kimidori = Interface
Tsuruya-san: supporter of Organization
Student Council President: Organization hired independent contractor
New member who looks like Yuki = slider?

Corrected.

And I didn't get a Yuki image from her description. She certainly doesn't act like Yuki.

What about Sakanaki? Does she count as someone who gets along with Haruhi? I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "gets along with".

CrowKenobi

2010-02-16, 23:04

Well, don't forget that some have speculated that Slider-tan is an older version of Kyon's Sister... ...who got along with Haruhi. :D

bhl88

2010-02-16, 23:23

"gets along"

- client of Haruhi
- in the SOS Brigade
- gets along with Haruhi (same wavelength) [with the exception of Sakanaka (forgot the name) who's a normal client)
- related to the 3/4 factions.

edkedkedk

2010-02-18, 05:34

In Volume 9, along with the remaining Anti-dan characters we hadn't met previously (rival data entity Kuyou Suou and Kyon ex-classmate and possibly goddess Sasaki), we are introduced to an unnamed newly minted North High freshman in (I think?) the alpha storyline who some fans have taken to calling "Slider-tan", or "Slider Girl", etc. She is brought to the attention of the reader as being the only standout member of a group of freshman trying to join the SOS-dan at a Haruhi-led event. Previously, a young lady, calling Kyon "senpai" and popularly believed to be this same freshman, calls Kyon's house and has a short conversation with him.

What leads many to believe that she is a slider is that that phone call is the splitting off point of the two separate timelines throughout the novel. In the beta timeline, Sasaki calls to speak to Kyon instead, setting off a string of differences in a timeline that doesn't even seem to contain the aforementioned "Slider-tan". Since she appears to be the cause of the split (Sasaki appeared before the event in the original timeline, but no evidence of a Slider-tan existed beforehand in the alpha timeline, suggesting that her calling kept Sasaki from being able to contact Kyon) it is presumed that she has slider powers and has slipped into the alphaverse for some reason, presumably (as the last piece of Haruhi's wishlist) to remain after the end of Volume 10.

Ah, thank you so much for the clarification. I didn't have the chance to read all the novels because the translations got pulled down from Baka-Tsuki, and since then haven't been searching for the novels. Really interesting, I didn't even know about this unannounced girl because everyone was calling her Sakanaki straight off the bat. It would explain what's with all the alpha and beta talk in one thread I read. I was just plain confused there :heh:

Well, don't forget that some have speculated that Slider-tan is an older version of Kyon's Sister... ...who got along with Haruhi. :D

If so, has Slider-tan shown any indication of warming up to Kyon and Mikuru? That would be a huge hint if that's the case... and messing up Kyon's life even further.

quigonkenny

2010-02-18, 09:00

Ah, thank you so much for the clarification. I didn't have the chance to read all the novels because the translations got pulled down from Baka-Tsuki, and since then haven't been searching for the novels. Really interesting, I didn't even know about this unannounced girl because everyone was calling her Sakanaki straight off the bat. It would explain what's with all the alpha and beta talk in one thread I read. I was just plain confused there :heh:
Sakanaka is the girl in Volume 8 with the dog. As a member of Haruhi and Kyon's class, the KyoAni animators have animated her in the background of their class shots from the very first episode. This is what she looks like.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg114/quigonkenny/Sakanaka.jpg
Cute, huh?
If so, has Slider-tan shown any indication of warming up to Kyon and Mikuru? That would be a huge hint if that's the case... and messing up Kyon's life even further.
We don't see enough of Slider-tan to get any solid clues. The only real interaction anyone has with her is the phone call to Kyon. One of the reasons why an alt!Imouto-san is suggested as a possibility is because Kyon thinks she sounds familiar during the phone call (and she mentions that our Imouto-san, who answered the phone, sounds cute), and during the later scene, he thinks that she looks familiar (suggesting she might be a relative of someone he knows), and her genki behavior is quite similar to that we often see from our Imouto-san. Honestly the best reason most assume she's an alt!Imouto-san is probably because Kyon thinks she's cute, and there's probably no more "Kyon" incident possible than finding out he's unintentionally attracted to his little sister... ^_^

edkedkedk

2010-02-18, 12:36

Sakanaka is the girl in Volume 8 with the dog. As a member of Haruhi and Kyon's class, the KyoAni animators have animated her in the background of their class shots from the very first episode. This is what she looks like.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg114/quigonkenny/Sakanaka.jpg
Cute, huh?

She looks pretty plain from this shot, but yeah, I can see your point :p I'm confused, though;

If Slider-tan's a freshman, how can she be Sakanaka, as she's in the same class as Kyon?

We don't see enough of Slider-tan to get any solid clues. The only real interaction anyone has with her is the phone call to Kyon. One of the reasons why an alt!Imouto-san is suggested as a possibility is because Kyon thinks she sounds familiar during the phone call (and she mentions that our Imouto-san, who answered the phone, sounds cute), and during the later scene, he thinks that she looks familiar (suggesting she might be a relative of someone he knows), and her genki behavior is quite similar to that we often see from our Imouto-san. Honestly the best reason most assume she's an alt!Imouto-san is probably because Kyon thinks she's cute, and there's probably no more "Kyon" incident possible than finding out he's unintentionally attracted to his little sister... ^_^

My goodness, potential incest? Tanigawa's mind would really be messed up if he tried something like that :heh:

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-18, 12:45

If Slider-tan's a freshman, how can she be Sakanaka, as she's in the same class as Kyon?

That was a correction. Sakanaka and the new girl are two completely separate characters, the latter of which not even having a name yet.

My goodness, potential incest? Tanigawa's mind would really be messed up if he tried something like that :heh:

I take it you've never run into the theory that Mikuru is Kyon's sister from the future. :heh:

edkedkedk

2010-02-18, 12:54

That was a correction. Sakanaka and the new girl are two completely separate characters, the latter of which not even having a name yet.

Ah I see. Sorry about that, didn't quite understand what was going on with all the slider-tan speculation.

I take it you've never run into the theory that Mikuru is Kyon's sister from the future. :heh:

Now THAT I have run across. This would seriously be messed up. Remember how

Mikuru asked Kyon if he would marry her if she's spoiled for marriage? So unless Imouto is really into incest, that's completely out of the question...

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2010-02-19, 06:20

edkedkedk

2010-02-19, 12:32

I just want to comment that that the "Kyon's sister is Mikuru" theory has sunk ages ago when when it was revealed in the novels that Mikuru has no idea how ships can float on water. The concept is alien to her, presumably because the future she came from either use teleporters or put anti-gravity onto everything.

The sure sign of a conspiracy theorist is when they only stick to what little evidence they have and ignore all evidence against their theories. Mikuru is from a distant future, so distant that when she eventually went back to her timeline, Kyon isn't there anymore.

Well there goes our need for spoiler tags :heh:

I am completely against that theory as stated above. Unless Imouto is into incest and her superiors are similarly perverse to send her back to seduce Kyon, it's a big no-no. I can't understand how anyone can ignore this point.

CrowKenobi

2010-02-19, 20:34

Well, that theory only happened because of how similar the anime character designer made them...

...I blame Melancholy VI... :D

ijuinkun

2010-02-20, 00:44

I just want to comment that that the "Kyon's sister is Mikuru" theory has sunk ages ago when when it was revealed in the novels that Mikuru has no idea how ships can float on water. The concept is alien to her, presumably because the future she came from either use teleporters or put anti-gravity onto everything.

This also implies that either Mikuru didn't get a proper middle-school education, or else that schools in the future do not teach such simple physics as Archimedes' Principle of Displacement. Mikuru knows all sorts of temporal physics, but not the basic pre-Newtonian stuff. That's a little like knowing how to build computers without knowing what electricity is made of--you don't have the underpinnings for the higher-level knowledge.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-02-20, 00:57

Khu

2010-02-20, 03:11

NO OCEAN?

NO WATER?

Wait, but I call the Island.

I CALL THE ISLAND.

quigonkenny

2010-02-20, 08:56

This also implies that either Mikuru didn't get a proper middle-school education, or else that schools in the future do not teach such simple physics as Archimedes' Principle of Displacement. Mikuru knows all sorts of temporal physics, but not the basic pre-Newtonian stuff. That's a little like knowing how to build computers without knowing what electricity is made of--you don't have the underpinnings for the higher-level knowledge.
In Soviet Russia far future, computer build you!

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-20, 12:05

Hey now, that's a distinct possibility, and one I don't particularly like thinking about. :heh:

Tabasco

2010-02-20, 12:39

No joke.

I wondered if they weren't space habitat dwellers in the future though. It would explain why she wouldn't have a clue about terrestrial physics, not to mention her lack of physical ability.

AmyElizzabeth

2010-02-20, 13:20

Or she's just an idiot
I'm guessing that in the future they have some other way of using boats...?

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-20, 13:30

Isn't it obvious? At some point, they gutted all the remaining boats and started using them for museums! :p

Triple_R

2010-02-20, 13:49

AmyElizzabeth

2010-02-20, 13:52

Maybe Tanigawa thinks being dumb uneducated is better for Mikuru.
"I think It'll add to her appeal, o-hohoho"

B2-Lancer

2010-02-20, 18:49

No joke.

I wondered if they weren't space habitat dwellers in the future though. It would explain why she wouldn't have a clue about terrestrial physics, not to mention her lack of physical ability.

Well, if she came from that distant a future, they would've also learned to build artificial worlds like the L-5 Society has promoted for decades (a'la "Babylon-Five"/Rama) where you not only can have lakes and rivers with steam ships on them but real weather and whole mountains to ski on inside there...

I dunno. I've never been into the Kyon sis thing, but do the books and serials totally absolutely rule that out?? Suppose she's really his adopted sister (unknown to him because of the 3-year thing he assumes she's natural) keeping an eye on him at home, or maybe lil' sis is like that but doesn't know she's from the future either because that memory's deleted, or...or.. I dunno, but a lot animes become wackily convoluted as a pretzel -- and bold these days. There was a time animes didn't dare suggest having a lolicon dad like Konata's much less him perching her on his lap, etc. Is sis incest totally off the charts for a distant future where taboos are taboo?? (after all, Kyon's sis was wearing a garter in that Haruhi H-game parody video by the same company...) :D

Anyway, as I get into Haruhi I'm getting more intrigued by the silent motives of the big Kahuna players in the background; all these data entities chasing for the torch to BE God (as I doubt Haruhi is any -- maybe a demigoddess empowered by fluke most, like maybe Yuki is really the Avatar of a whole "mission control" of entities). I'd like to know more about how these hyperbeings see another and if they ever fought, where they came from if they all weren't one once. Maybe somehow they're the (inspiration?) of Asgard and Olympus...

Just throwing speculative dice...

ijuinkun

2010-02-21, 01:31

Even if Mikuru lives in some far off space station thousands of years in the future, and hence has never so much as encountered a body of water... this is still horrible training. >>;

You're sending her to 200X, guys; the least you can do is teach her about boats and stuff like that! XD

Imagine you are going back to sixteenth century Upstate New York to live among Iroquois and observe their society from within. How well would you be trained in making tools out of stone, wood, grass, and animal hide? Would you be able to identify which plants are good to eat and which are poison? Would you be able to track and kill a deer? Start a fire with flints, or even by rubbing bits of wood together? The people native to that time and place would think you an ignorant fool for not knowing what they consider to be everyday things.

Triple_R

2010-02-21, 01:42

Imagine you are going back to sixteenth century Upstate New York to live among Iroquois and observe their society from within. How well would you be trained in making tools out of stone, wood, grass, and animal hide? Would you be able to identify which plants are good to eat and which are poison? Would you be able to track and kill a deer? Start a fire with flints, or even by rubbing bits of wood together? The people native to that time and place would think you an ignorant fool for not knowing what they consider to be everyday things.

Very bad analogy.

It only takes a brief educational explanation to convey to Mikuru how boats of 200X can float on water. It's not a matter of training Mikuru to outright drive a boat; it's training her to have some basic awareness of what 200X Japan (and the surrounding world) is like. It's one thing to not know how to make tools out of stone, wood, grass, and animal hide. It's another thing to not even be aware of how the people of 16th century Upstate New York did so (if that's the time period that you're being sent to as part of your mission).

Also, didn't you earlier write:

"This also implies that either Mikuru didn't get a proper middle-school education, or else that schools in the future do not teach such simple physics as Archimedes' Principle of Displacement. Mikuru knows all sorts of temporal physics, but not the basic pre-Newtonian stuff. That's a little like knowing how to build computers without knowing what electricity is made of--you don't have the underpinnings for the higher-level knowledge." (emphasis mine) ?

You're being quite critical of the people who taught and trained Mikuru.
And I simply agreed with you; Mikuru was very poorly trained for this mission.

And just so you know, I do know how to do some of those things that you mentioned; don't go assuming things about people you only know through the internet, sir.

edkedkedk

2010-02-21, 10:49

Well, if she came from that distant a future, they would've also learned to build artificial worlds like the L-5 Society has promoted for decades (a'la "Babylon-Five"/Rama) where you not only can have lakes and rivers with steam ships on them but real weather and whole mountains to ski on inside there...

Why can't it simply be Mikuru pretending to not know how a boat floats to keep the future a secret? Or to make herself seem more air-headed and cute that way?

I dunno. I've never been into the Kyon sis thing, but do the books and serials totally absolutely rule that out?? Suppose she's really his adopted sister (unknown to him because of the 3-year thing he assumes she's natural) keeping an eye on him at home, or maybe lil' sis is like that but doesn't know she's from the future either because that memory's deleted, or...or.. I dunno, but a lot animes become wackily convoluted as a pretzel -- and bold these days. There was a time animes didn't dare suggest having a lolicon dad like Konata's much less him perching her on his lap, etc. Is sis incest totally off the charts for a distant future where taboos are taboo?? (after all, Kyon's sis was wearing a garter in that Haruhi H-game parody video by the same company...) :D

I think incest is a very hard thing for Haruhi fans and the world of Haruhi itself to bear :heh:

You could argue that 3 years past (or is it 4 now?), Haruhi remade the world and caused a huge of data. Everyone then assumes what they have currently is what they always had. But I still don't buy it. The same reason why Mikuru (Big) didn't meet Mikuru, Imouto meeting Mikuru would have caused some kind of time discrepancy which will end up in a paradox.

Tabasco

2010-02-21, 10:58

So we've established that if there is still such a thing as the Girl Scouts in the future, Mikuru was never a member.

@ B-2
I'd kind of like to see more of what's behind the curtain on the cosmic entities too. Yuki, Kimiri, and Ryoko have such divergent personalities that I have to think that those that created them are equally diverse, but it would be nice to see for certain.

quigonkenny

2010-02-21, 14:59

Very bad analogy.

It only takes a brief educational explanation to convey to Mikuru how boats of 200X can float on water. It's not a matter of training Mikuru to outright drive a boat; it's training her to have some basic awareness of what 200X Japan (and the surrounding world) is like. It's one thing to not know how to make tools out of stone, wood, grass, and animal hide. It's another thing to not even be aware of how the people of 16th century Upstate New York did so (if that's the time period that you're being sent to as part of your mission).

Also, didn't you earlier write:

"This also implies that either Mikuru didn't get a proper middle-school education, or else that schools in the future do not teach such simple physics as Archimedes' Principle of Displacement. Mikuru knows all sorts of temporal physics, but not the basic pre-Newtonian stuff. That's a little like knowing how to build computers without knowing what electricity is made of--you don't have the underpinnings for the higher-level knowledge." (emphasis mine) ?

You're being quite critical of the people who taught and trained Mikuru.
And I simply agreed with you; Mikuru was very poorly trained for this mission.

And just so you know, I do know how to do some of those things that you mentioned; don't go assuming things about people you only know through the internet, sir.
I think you are taking this a bit too personally. He didn't mean "you" you, he meant "the average reader of this forum" you, which is almost certainly true. It's actually quite a good analogy that he gave. Two of the benefits of the advancement of technology are that it does so many things that people used to have to do manually, and it makes so many of the things we still do much easier. But those are also two of the largest disadvantages of high technology. As technology advances, those two things are only going to become more pronounced, to the point that our technology may do so much for us at a certain point that Mikuru's situation does become analogous to dropping your average 2010 forum rat into a sixteenth century Iroquoi settlement.

You've also got to take two things into account regarding Mikuru's training. First of all, everything she is taught has to make it through the criteria of not screwing up the past. Her rampant ignorance of 21st century matters is one of the things that gives her such a meek personality, and if she's not taking the initiative on things, there's almost no chance of her screwing up history. Anything involving boat travel is most likely outside of her need-to-know bubble, since North High is not on an island, and she was never supposed to be a close observer anyway. Frankly, I find it amazing that she even knows how to make tea. Secondly, how much do her trainers know? Time travel is supposedly impossible prior to the "3ya" event, and Mikuru is probably the North High observer for her origin time, so most likely any first-hand observation her superiors have access to is from later periods. Most likely much later. There's a reason why Mikuru(big) is a supervisor in their future, being such a rich font of "local" first-hand experience.

It's also fair to suspect, due to extrapolation of technology levels, the apparent internalization of their futuretech, and most tellingly her xenophobia, that Mikuru lived a very insular life prior to coming back to the past. I don't know if I'd say that all the people from her future are effectively hikkikomori, but whether she was brought up in some orbiting science satellite or a Matrix analog, it's safe to suspect she's had almost no physical experience with people, or even with the outside world. She could have all the scientific book knowledge in the world, but if she's never been physically confronted with something that illustrates Archimedes' Principles (like a boat), she may never have made that practical leap.

A similar phenomenon happens today with new university graduates when they enter the workforce. A fiar perecntage come in thinking they're well-prepared for their new jobs by all their hard-earned book knowledge, with some convinced they're even more prepared than their veteran co-workers due to their comparatively "more advanced" knowledge, only to find that the real world and academia are functionally very different. Mikuru would be in an even more severe situation, where physically living in Japanese high school is nearly entirely theoretical.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-02-21, 16:37

Secondly, how much do her trainers know? Time travel is supposedly impossible prior to the "3ya" event, and Mikuru is probably the North High observer for her origin time, so most likely any first-hand observation her superiors have access to is from later periods.

The way Mikuru describes the time quake, it seems as though that in the past they DID have access to pre-3YA time planes, and the object given to Tsuruya in Vol. 7 should probably prove that.

quigonkenny

2010-02-21, 18:28

The way Mikuru describes the time quake, it seems as though that in the past they DID have access to pre-3YA time planes, and the object given to Tsuruya in Vol. 7 should probably prove that.
Shh... I'm one of the people that first proffered/championed that theory (I forget which), so I have the right to ignore it. ^_^

Honestly, though, "Ignorance is a basis of her job" is a central theme of my post. Anything they teach her about 21st century life is something that both risks her changing history and limits her development into obviously self-taught and decidedly less helpless Mikuru(big).

Triple_R

2010-02-21, 18:41

Shh... I'm one of the people that first proffered/championed that theory (I forget which), so I have the right to ignore it. ^_^

Honestly, though, "Ignorance is a basis of her job" is a central theme of my post. Anything they teach her about 21st century life is something that both risks her changing history and limits her development into obviously self-taught and decidedly less helpless Mikuru(big).

Mikuru is very, very dependable when it comes to not trying to change the future (as we see by her downright reflexive "classified" spiels). She's quite trustworthy there, and she should have more trust placed upon her in that regard, as such.

And having a little basic introductory knowledge is the best way to go even if you are going to self-teach yourself from that point on.

Leaving a person without such basic knowledge runs a great risk of overwhelming that person, and sure enough we've seen Mikuru near the breaking point many times because of it (most notably in the Intrigues novel).

Keeping Mikuru in a better and more prepared state of mind could have avoided certain problems.

Take E8 for example. A more competent, confident, and well-trained Mikuru could have helped end that problem much faster than what Kyon managed alone.

But, then... the goals of Mikuru's bosses are somewhat of a mystery. I'm not saying that Tanigawa made a mistake here. Perhaps we're not supposed to view Mikuru's bosses in a positive light, and the way they treat and handle Mikuru is meant to move us to that point.

In which case, it may be brilliant writing on Tanigawa's part.

Heatth

2010-02-21, 18:47

It's actually quite a good analogy that he gave. Two of the benefits of the advancement of technology are that it does so many things that people used to have to do manually, and it makes so many of the things we still do much easier.

What Tripe said is it is different not being able to do something and not knowing something an be done. I believe no one here would be surprised with fire coming from dry wood or with being possible to know which plant is poison, een if few here can start a campfire or select the right mushroon.

However, to defend Mikuru a little, she was not really surpirsed with the existance of boats, she was just amazed that metal could float. It is a bit different. In her training someone may have said 'in that era they have havy transport that float on Ocean', but not explained how.

But, yeah, givem that consideration, I believe it was a good analogy. However, I don't know if ijuinkun have considered that much.

PP:
About Mikuru being ignorant help her to no change nothing. Well, this is only true if they find her not trustable. Else, it would bew actually better if she know what she was doing to avoid either being out of place (which is almsot the case) or to screw up doing something she don't know. Also, technically, Mikuru can't change the past, better, all changes already happened anyway.

Triple_R

2010-02-21, 18:51

What Tripe said is it is different not being able to do something and not knowing something an be done. I believe no one here would be surprised with fire coming from dry wood or with being possible to know which plant is poison, een if few here can start a campfire or select the right mushroon.

However, to defend Mikuru a little, she was not really surpirsed with the existance of boats, she was just amazed that metal could float. It is a bit different. In her training someone may have said 'in that era they have havy transport that float in Ocean', but not explained how.

But, yeah, givem that consideration, I believe it was a good analogy. However, I don't know if ijuinkun have considered that much.

Thanks, Heatth; that's what I was getting at yeah. :)

You raise a good point with the metal part, though.

Yeah, I could see that being a slight oversight on the part of Mikuru's bosses.

Oh well, a lot of this is speculation anyway.

ijuinkun

2010-02-21, 23:38

I think you are taking this a bit too personally. He didn't mean "you" you, he meant "the average reader of this forum" you, which is almost certainly true. It's actually quite a good analogy that he gave. Two of the benefits of the advancement of technology are that it does so many things that people used to have to do manually, and it makes so many of the things we still do much easier. But those are also two of the largest disadvantages of high technology. As technology advances, those two things are only going to become more pronounced, to the point that our technology may do so much for us at a certain point that Mikuru's situation does become analogous to dropping your average 2010 forum rat into a sixteenth century Iroquoi settlement.

Thank you for following what I was getting at. What I meant is that once knowledge advances far enough, new knowledge utterly displaces the old, resulting in the old knowledge being seen as obsolete in the modern society. For example, few people these days have studied the full depth of Aristotelian physics since that paradigm has been thrown away in favor of the Newtonian paradigm. If you were to go back in time and speak to a medieval person who had been raised under the Aristotelian model, any but the most basic conversation with him would stumble over conflicts in your world-views (e.g. he thinks the heavens orbit the Earth, that a moving object slows down not because of friction but because it is the nature of matter to be stationary unless forced, etc.).

What I am implying by this is that it may be that Mikuru's society has "thrown out" pre-quantum physics as being too inaccurate/obsolete to be worthwhile. Indeed, the very fact that their physics models time as quantum means that all continuous (i.e. non-quantized) physics would be obsolete as soon as an alternative, quantum model becomes available. As such, their schools may have regarded such things as bouyancy to be "too primitive" to teach, any more than current high schools would teach you how to hunt or to make stone tools.

edkedkedk

2010-02-23, 09:37

It's funny how discussions about Mikuru are the most scientific I've read out of all the SOS Brigade so far :p

Thanks, Heatth; that's what I was getting at yeah. :)

You raise a good point with the metal part, though.

Yeah, I could see that being a slight oversight on the part of Mikuru's bosses.

So there actually might be boats that can float in Mikuru's future, just that they were made out of a different material? Pretty possible, if they came out with a better, more efficient one. Something like a better plastic, or a whole new element? It's hard to tell. Then again, it could be that Mikuru's future degenerated in technology and they're back to using paper boats :heh: Depends on what you guys think about the future. Will it be a better place with better resources and technology, with peace and equity in the world? Or will it be a desolate planet where Man has squandered much of the resources and all they can do is rely on basic stuff? After all, the only certain thing we know about Mikuru's future is that there are time-travelers, and they have the TPDD to aid them, alongside technology that prevents them from affecting or being affected by the timestream. For all we know, they might be the only technologically advanced group in the future.

All this could be cleared up if Mikuru didn't say 'Classified Information! Classified Information!' so many darn times :eyespin:

Heatth

2010-02-23, 10:07

Thank you for following what I was getting at. What I meant is that once knowledge advances far enough, new knowledge utterly displaces the old, resulting in the old knowledge being seen as obsolete in the modern society. For example, few people these days have studied the full depth of Aristotelian physics since that paradigm has been thrown away in favor of the Newtonian paradigm. If you were to go back in time and speak to a medieval person who had been raised under the Aristotelian model, any but the most basic conversation with him would stumble over conflicts in your world-views (e.g. he thinks the heavens orbit the Earth, that a moving object slows down not because of friction but because it is the nature of matter to be stationary unless forced, etc.).

What I am implying by this is that it may be that Mikuru's society has "thrown out" pre-quantum physics as being too inaccurate/obsolete to be worthwhile. Indeed, the very fact that their physics models time as quantum means that all continuous (i.e. non-quantized) physics would be obsolete as soon as an alternative, quantum model becomes available. As such, their schools may have regarded such things as bouyancy to be "too primitive" to teach, any more than current high schools would teach you how to hunt or to make stone tools.

What you say is correct, however, it is kinda missing the actual discussion. Many, if not all, are under the impression that Mikuru's question implied that she didn't know that 'boats exist' and not that she didn't know that 'metal may float'. They are different things, and your post and analogy just reffer to the latter, being, therefore, a bad analogy to the former.

You and me seens to agree it is the latter, but the majority seens to think it is the former (other wise it wouldn't be people suggesting there was no ocean in future). Does anyone have the actual quote from the novel, to try to clear this up?

ultimatemegax

2010-02-23, 10:15

What you say is correct, however, it is kinda missing the actual discussion. Many, if not all, are under the impression that Mikuru's question implied that she didn't know that 'boats exist' and not that she didn't know that 'metal may float'. They are different things, and your post and analogy just reffer to the latter, being, therefore, a bad analogy to the former.

You and me seens to agree it is the latter, but the majority seens to think it is the former (other wise it wouldn't be people suggesting there was no ocean in future). Does anyone have the actual quote from the novel, to try to clear this up?

Here is the quote from the B-T translation:

"It's been a long time since I rode a ferry."

Haruhi slid her shades down and gazed at the grey sea in the distance by the pier. Her dark silky hair flew in the sea breeze as she stood by the edge of the boarding dock.

"Such a huge ship! It's so incredible, for such a large ship to float on water."

Asahina-san, carrying two suitcases with her hands, looked up in awe at the ferry. She wore a white one-piece summer dress and a straw hat on her head. This made her look very cute. Having the laces of a hat tied under her chin suits her. Her eyes glimmered like a child's, looking at the old ferry as though it were some ancient wooden boat dug up by archaeologists. Perhaps ships don't float on water in her age.

vvv Or it could simply be the fact that she's admiring the engineering and design that enables such a big thing to be able to float. I see it as more of a compliment as to how big a ferry it is rather than the ability for it to float.

edkedkedk

2010-02-23, 10:22

darksassin

2010-02-23, 10:37

Heatth

2010-02-23, 10:43

Ah, I see. It is probably Kyon's comment that caused the confusion. Well, given she included large in the phrase, I would say you can assume it is not the ship itself, but the fact it is large.

Well, I presumed more or less this, indeed, as ijuinkun said, if they use other means of transportation, she don't really need to know that large boats can float, even if she knows small ones can. A bit early to say there is no ocean or something.

However, it is weird. If she had som basic history she should know how navegation was important for early civilizations (including ours). How far from the future one needs to be so that knowledgement becomes outdated? Considering he current mssion, Triple previous assumption is likely correct, even if an avarage future person don't need to know about large boats (whitch is still dubious, unless they don't care for history), for someone send to the past this is vital information.

Of course, if boats don't exist in the future, Mikuru's reaction is just a simple surprise seeing something never seen before. It is like being amazed how the old people could live without the things we have today. Not that unnatural. It is still bad training, tough. Good thing Mikuru natural naive personality prevent it to sound too weird (itkinda fit her).

In any way, this is not the first (much less the last) time we see Mikuru know less then she should, specially for someone from future. Her superiors like to let her in the dark, for some reason.

darksassin

2010-02-23, 10:49

Anyway, back to the topic
Does translated novel 4 has come out?

Heatth

2010-02-23, 11:03

What do you mean by that? We are still waiting for the official release of the 3th book. A optimist view couldn't say the 4th to be out untill the end of the year.

A non-official translation was made years ago, for all books. It was taken down recently, however. A quick google should solve your problem.

And what do you mean by 'back to the topic'? While the discussion could be moved to Mikuru's thread, it still fit here, we are discussing novel content, after all.

darksassin

2010-02-23, 11:14

No, im just thinking that it has been almost 5 months after the last post on Mikuru thread, Kinda feel pity though...:heh:

quigonkenny

2010-02-23, 13:23

No, im just thinking that it has been almost 5 months after the last post on Mikuru thread, Kinda feel pity though...:heh:
Well, IIRC the Character threads were opened up because there were a lot of different discussions going on all at once and clogging up this and the spoiler forum (being the "safest" forums for novel info). Once those discussions died down, as they inevitably do (there's only so much you can say about whether Haruhi is a tsundere before it gets repetitive), it became easier to handle the much fewer concurrent discussions we're having now in just a few forums.

Heatth

2010-02-23, 16:21

Still, new topics about the characters still pop up from time to time. While we could just discuss then here (or in the spoiler thread), I believe it would be better do so in the character threads. In a exemple, both Yuki and ITsuki threads are ative right now (and Itsuki's current topic just started a few days ago), it would be a pain if these threads do not exist.

Maybe it would be better just move the last few or so posts and continue the discussion in the right thread (not that this one is really 'wrong').

SgtHydra

2010-02-23, 22:07

From this I can come up with several theories; One, in Mikuru's future, there are only small ships that float on water. The sheer size of modern day ships was what amazed her. Two, ships do not float in water in her future, but perhaps in air, maybe? Three, she has ships, and she has water, and she has ships that float on water in her future, but she's simply too dumb to understand the science behind it.

Alternately, she's just trying to frak with Kyon's mind on purpose.

Though I'll likely later regret it, I'm agreeing with Koizumi regarding the information that comes out of Mikuru's mouth: don't trust her.

Out of anyone in the SOS Brigade, she is the most suspicious; even if only due to her so called "inexperience."

Why send a novice to handle such an important job? Answer: you wouldn't.
You'd send a trained professional who excels at playing the part she is expected to play.

Kogetsu Shirogane

2010-02-23, 22:55

Why send a novice to handle such an important job? Answer: you wouldn't.
You'd send a trained professional who excels at playing the part she is expected to play.

Alternately, you send her because history says you did.

That still doesn't mean she should be trusted, though. After all, almost her entire speech on how time travel works has been proven to be a complete lie over the course of the series. :heh:

quigonkenny

2010-02-24, 03:37

After all, almost her entire speech on how her time travel technology works has appeared to be incorrect over the course of the series. :heh:
Corrected.

For one thing, your logic is circular. You claim her "lying" is evidence that her whole personality is a fake, but if she really is an idiot as portrayed, then it's much more likely that she's just wrong.

For another thing, it's an arguable point as to whether her time travel tech really isn't working as advertised. The only time anything has "changed", it was due to a combination of Haruhi and Mikuru's abilities, used by Yuki, so honestly all bets are off. Otherwise, all the Mikuru-related time travel is entirely of the predestination paradox variety. She herself never affected anything, and nothing was actually changed.

ijuinkun

2010-02-24, 04:54

What you say is correct, however, it is kinda missing the actual discussion. Many, if not all, are under the impression that Mikuru's question implied that she didn't know that 'boats exist' and not that she didn't know that 'metal may float'. They are different things, and your post and analogy just reffer to the latter, being, therefore, a bad analogy to the former.

You and me seens to agree it is the latter, but the majority seens to think it is the former (other wise it wouldn't be people suggesting there was no ocean in future). Does anyone have the actual quote from the novel, to try to clear this up?

If it's about the size/design of the ship rather than about the concept of buoyancy, then it may be that Mikuru was feeling the same kind of awe that we feel when looking at Stonehenge or the Pyramids--in other words. "How could they have built/used such a thing with their primitive technology?" She would likely be just as awed at realizing that people of our era traveled to the Moon riding on three-thousand-ton firecrackers instead of fusion-powered antigravity craft.

This, again, is kind of similar to how these days we do not think about lighting a fire by rubbing bits of wood together, and instead tend to use prefabricated matches or cigarette lighters--you experience a bit of a mental disconnect when you realize exactly what lighting a fire in the ancient way entails.

ultimatemegax

2010-02-24, 06:44

darksassin

2010-02-24, 07:27

The reason I asked about novel 4 is because my friend and I decided to alternately buy the novel. She buy the odd number, I buy even number.

I apologize for deviating from the Mikuru vs boat conflict, but there is something we may want to pay attention to:

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/Haruhisuprise.jpg

On April 30th in Japan, in June's edition of "The Sneaker" there will be something about the Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novel 10). I cannot tell if it will be something like a prologue or something else, so I will not speculate as to the contents.

So, it is almost confirmed that novel 10 will be out? If it is true, :D

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2010-02-24, 11:23

The way Mikuru describes the time quake, it seems as though that in the past they DID have access to pre-3YA time planes, and the object given to Tsuruya in Vol. 7 should probably prove that.

In the past?:heh:

You do realise that made no sense at all, right?
If Haruhi blocked backward time travel further than a specific point, it wouldn't matter WHEN it happened. Alteration of the past means the change occurs retroactively, as if it has always been there. Granted, there is a chance of alternate worlds that got re-written, but...

For reasons relating to the circumstances of Timetravel's very invention, Mikuru's people could not have gone back in time in an alternate version of the world before Haruhi blocked the past. That alternate world does not exist because without Haruhi's thesis on time-planes, the time machine would never have been created.

keri

2010-02-24, 11:38

I apologize for deviating from the Mikuru vs boat conflict, but there is something we may want to pay attention to:

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/Haruhisuprise.jpg

On April 30th in Japan, in June's edition of "The Sneaker" there will be something about the Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novel 10). I cannot tell if it will be something like a prologue or something else, so I will not speculate as to the contents.

Edit: To confirm that it is a real book and not a photoshop, here is another view of the announcement:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/ultimatemegax/Haruhi%20Images/agpiZWViZWUyc2VlchQLEgxJbWFnZUFuZFR.jpg

2nd Edit: I feel more comfortable detailing the fact that it appears to be the first part of the book revealed in the June issue after reading more information.

OMG OMG YAY. I'm doing a little internal dance of excitement that it's finally definitely coming out, though not a big one because I have a two-days-overdue paper I'm trying to finish with minimal distractions. (Also, even if it's June issue, it'll be a while before translations start surfacing, I imagine. And without baka-tsuki, I can't be lazy about looking for one.)

M.Marangio

2010-02-24, 13:24

It's also on ANN (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-02-24/haruhi-new-light-novel-to-be-previewed-in-the-sneaker) and they linked to this page: http://yunakiti.blog79.fc2.com/blog-entry-4762.html.

ETA: Also on gigazine (http://gigazine.net/index.php?/news/comments/20100225_haruhi_kyogaku_sneaker/).

Kaisos Erranon

2010-02-24, 15:52

So does that announcement say anything about it being the final book?

In the past?:heh:

You do realise that made no sense at all, right?

I've brought this up before... this is how it HAS to work. :heh:

They wouldn't have "noticed" that they couldn't go back past the 3YA event if they hadn't been able to do so to begin with. Of course, you could argue that the limitation has always been there, but then how do you explain that odd device? It certainly wasn't "aliens", as humans are the only sentient corporeal beings in the universe, according to Nagato.

ultimatemegax

2010-02-24, 16:20

So does that announcement say anything about it being the final book?

There is nothing about the novel being the last one that I have read so far. There's some text that can't be seen easily, so there is still the possibility.

Heatth

2010-02-24, 19:42

They wouldn't have "noticed" that they couldn't go back past the 3YA event if they hadn't been able to do so to begin with. Of course, you could argue that the limitation has always been there, but then how do you explain that odd device? It certainly wasn't "aliens", as humans are the only sentient corporeal beings in the universe, according to Nagato.

Precursors? Maybe there were some ancient very advanced civilization in Japan long ago. I am sure I saw something in tvtrope's WMG. :p

Or time travel to before 3 years ago [b]will[b] become possible in Mikuru's future. As far as we know, it can already be possible in Mikuru's(big) time.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2010-02-24, 19:43

So does that announcement say anything about it being the final book?

I've brought this up before... this is how it HAS to work. :heh:

They wouldn't have "noticed" that they couldn't go back past the 3YA event if they hadn't been able to do so to begin with. Of course, you could argue that the limitation has always been there, but then how do you explain that odd device? It certainly wasn't "aliens", as humans are the only sentient corporeal beings in the universe, according to Nagato.

You are talking about the Titanium alloy?
One possible explanation offered by the novel was that it was left over from an ancient human civilisation. Kyon hope that it was a time traveller or alien who did this instead, because there is enough strange people around him already as it is. :heh:

And as I mentioned in the spoiler, they MUST have always been unable to go further back in time. They just don't understand why they can't.

quigonkenny

2010-02-24, 19:50

Precursors? Maybe there were some ancient very advanced civilization in Japan long ago. I am sure I saw something in tvtrope's WMG. :p
You do realize that invoking TV Tropes' WMG automatically loses you the argument, right? It's the equivalent of invoking Hitler in a political argument. We can no longer take you seriously. ^_^

And as I mentioned in the spoiler, they MUST have always been unable to go further back in time. They just don't understand why they can't.
Causality is a fairly malleable thing when Haruhi is involved.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-02-24, 19:51

And as I mentioned in the spoiler, they MUST have always been unable to go further back in time. They just don't understand why they can't.

You're assuming that Haruhi's powers follow conventional logic. Mikuru describes Haruhi's time quake as just that... a "quake". Which means that it must have been some kind of observable event, after which the time travelers found themselves unable to go back further into the past from 3YA.

Furthemore, the possibility of an "ancient civilization" feels ludicrous to me, unless its existence is hidden as a result of some sort of conspiracy.

Vallen Chaos Valiant

2010-02-24, 20:17

You're assuming that Haruhi's powers follow conventional logic. Mikuru describes Haruhi's time quake as just that... a "quake". Which means that it must have been some kind of observable event, after which the time travelers found themselves unable to go back further into the past from 3YA.

Furthemore, the possibility of an "ancient civilization" feels ludicrous to me, unless its existence is hidden as a result of some sort of conspiracy.

Of course the time-quake is observable. They know when in time it happened, and have the instruments to measure it. But it has ALWAYS happened at that time.

As for lost civilisations, that actually occur all the time IRL. Civilisations don't last that long. You don't need a conspiracy, not when no one remembered it as anything but myth.

Heatth

2010-02-24, 20:22

You do realize that invoking TV Tropes' WMG automatically loses you the argument, right? It's the equivalent of invoking Hitler in a political argument. We can no longer take you seriously. ^_^

I was not really trying to be serious. If I had to guess something I would say it was from an alternativ dimension. At last fits better.

You're assuming that Haruhi's powers follow conventional logic. Mikuru describes Haruhi's time quake as just that... a "quake". Which means that it must have been some kind of observable event, after which the time travelers found themselves unable to go back further into the past from 3YA.

Like time travel to before 3 years ago being impossible from year XXXX to year YYYY but possible after or before that?

This is kind of a possibility to. However, what your stop the time-travelers to go back to before said event and, from there, go back to before 3 years ago.

Hmmm, now I stop to think, there is no place saying they find this limitation a problem, just that they want to study Haruhi. They could just trying to find why a random girl can mess with time, even if it didn't effect them. Still, there is something kinda wrong, why would Haruhi, from 3 years ago, just effect year XXXX+?

Furthemore, the possibility of an "ancient civilization" feels ludicrous to me, unless its existence is hidden as a result of some sort of conspiracy.

Well, yeah, that would be. It is as logic as a Agency spying a high school studant or time traveling existing yet no rogue future people appearing telling everyone about that. Anyway, I don't like it either. There is no kinda of foreshadowing of such thing, no one never mentioned it in the novels as far I remember. I find ghosts existing more probable. I preffer my other dimension explanation.

PP:
s for lost civilisations, that actually occur all the time IRL. Civilisations don't last that long. You don't need a conspiracy, not when no one remembered it as anything but myth.

The problem is that civilization must be advanced. That means she had to be least for a long time. And they have to had been in Japan at last once. Leaving no traces is kinda weird.

Kaisos Erranon

2010-02-24, 20:35

Yeah, I guess my theory doesn't make any real sense. It's just that the word "quake" implies to me that, at some point in the time travelers' own past, they observed an event in the happening, which, after that point, cut them off from pre-3YA time planes.

But like I said, it doesn't make any sense if you think about it.

Leaving no traces is kinda weird.

Actually, it isn't. Since iron, steel and computer chips erode faster than rock and brick, any ancient civilization as advanced as our own would leave next to no trace of its existence.

ultimatemegax

2010-02-24, 20:45

Heatth

2010-02-24, 20:49

Actually, it isn't. Since iron, steel and computer chips erode faster than rock and brick, any ancient civilization as advanced as our own would leave next to no trace of its existence.

But I tought plastic last, like, forever? Well, since we have no idea what they did use I guess it could be. But, they would have also never had any contact with any other civilization (so there is no records), while had being in Japan at some point. But I guess they could be just that old (like, before ancient China and Egipt).

Actually, if they are that old things would be simpler. There are no other civilization to remember about them and it would be old enough to the traces disappear.

keri

2010-02-24, 22:08

From the official translation:

"It was three years ago. A large timequake was detected. Oh, um. Three years ago if you count from the current time. Back around when you and Suzumiya became middle school students. After arriving in the past to investigate the matter, we were shocked. No matter what we tried, we were unable to go any further back in time.
Again with the three years ago business, huh?
"The conclusion was that a large time fault had appeared between time planes. But we couldn't figure out why the fault was limited to this epoch. We only learned the possible reason recently....Ah, recently for the future I come from."

I would gather to say that when they were able to begin measuring time (ie the beginning of time travel), they found that a time fault appeared between the planes between three years ago and before three years ago. When they went to investigate the cause, they found that they weren't able to cross the planes due to the fault. Right before Mikuru was sent back (and likely due to why she was sent back) they discovered that Haruhi was the cause of the fault and sent people to observe if she would create another time fault.

Here's a crazy theory.
Mikuru says "we couldn't figure out why the fault was limited to this epoch." What exactly does she mean by epoch? Perhaps the thing about animation frames is more or less correct, and an epoch is like a reel of film? I don't know what could split an epoch, but if Mikuru is technically from a different epoch than ours, they would be able to go prior to the 3YA if they go to an epoch prior to ours, or come from a different epoch (thus leaving the alloy thing), but traveling from within our epoch to an earlier than 3YA point in our epoch is what's no good.

Timeline: ( --- some previous epoch ---)(--- our epoch ---)(--- Mikuru's epoch ---)
Our epoch: (x-can't travel to here-x -|| 3YA ---)

So if you leapfrog over our epoch, you can still move forward normally to get to prior-to-3YA, but you can't move backwards to that point.

Wild mass guessing, though, and mostly dependent on Mikuru's meaning of "epoch".